00:00:00
Hey weirdos. I'm Molina. >> I'm Ash. >> And this is Morbid. [Music] Yeah. >> It's morbid in the mid afternoon. And
00:00:24
>> it is indeed. I like the lighting in here right now. >> Yeah, we set the lighting. We have those
00:00:27
light bulbs that you can change to make them fun colors. >> Yeah, it's like um this is like a weird
00:00:34
way to describe it, but it's like cotton candy lighting. >> No, it is a little bit. It's like pinky
00:00:38
bluey purpley. I like it. >> I like it. >> Thanks. >> Hey, it's spooky season everybody.
00:00:44
>> Yeah, it's pre-occtober. >> It's pre-occtober. >> Proctober, if you will. >> Proctober. Not you know John Proctober.
00:00:52
No, >> but maybe in >> not good maybe. Yeah, goody proctober over here. Uh, and we're pretty excited about it. We
00:01:01
got some really fun stuff coming up for you today. One of those things we're actually doing
00:01:06
>> later today, actually. Um, >> I'm so [ __ ] excited. >> Yeah, you'll find out about it uh later.
00:01:12
>> In a few months. >> Yeah, you'll find out about it soon. >> In a while. >> Um, but yeah, it'll be fun. I'm trying
00:01:19
to think if there's any other fun updates. Uh, we got our bonus episode just came out. We hope you guys are
00:01:25
digging that one. We talked about Unknown Number, the High School Catfish documentary, and holy [ __ ]
00:01:32
>> the wildest documentaries I've ever seen. Everyone is talking about it, too. I was listening to Sup this morning, and
00:01:36
I was crying at their coverage of it. >> They're so [ __ ] funny. >> They are so funny. If you don't listen
00:01:42
to Sup, I don't know what the [ __ ] is wrong with you. >> The Sexy Unique podcast.
00:01:45
>> Sexy Unique Podcast. >> We love Lara and Carrie >> so much. >> Come on the show.
00:01:50
>> Come on the show. Come on the show. It would be so random. It would be very random, but
00:01:55
>> like what the [ __ ] are we doing here? >> Bonus episode. That's what bonus episodes are for now.
00:01:58
>> Yeah. >> Once a month we get a bonus episode in case you haven't heard. We've said it a
00:02:02
few times, but just in case you don't I don't know when you're dropping in, you know.
00:02:06
>> Once a month we're going to do a bonus episode in addition to our weekly episodes. It won't be taking up the
00:02:12
place of a weekly episode. It will be in addition. >> Yeah. Don't even think about think about
00:02:17
that. But those bonus episodes are just going to be like I think we're going to put a lot of guests on those bonus
00:02:22
episodes. A lot of random documentary things, maybe some horror things, like things that feel like they just need
00:02:30
their own place, >> like miscellaneous. >> Yeah, miscellaneous things. So, you know, it those are going to be really
00:02:35
fun, though. I have a feeling we're going to end up thinking those are like some of our favorite episodes.
00:02:39
>> I think so, too. >> Um and hopefully you guys feel that way. >> Yay. >> Um but you know what? Let's start let's
00:02:45
start um Goodie Proctober early. >> Okay. Well, no, it's it's Goodie Proctober now cuz it's pre-occtober.
00:02:52
Proctober. >> That's it. There you go. All right. >> We're in Goodie Proctober. >> We're in it. We're in Goodie Proctober
00:02:58
right now. >> Yeah. >> And we are going to start putting some, you know, it's spooky season. Spooky
00:03:04
season vibes are coming out >> and we're going to cover the Enfield poltergeist today. I feel like I've
00:03:12
heard this talked about Yeah. >> so much cuz I feel like we've talked about it with Dave like a zillion times.
00:03:17
Um but I don't know if I know like all the details. >> Yeah. I definitely didn't know all the
00:03:24
details before going into this. >> I think this is Dave's favorite uh paranormal story. Like
00:03:29
>> Yeah. This is like his favorite poltergeist. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, it's going to be good.
00:03:35
>> Yeah. >> Uh so this is a crazy one. Uh it's it's just one part, but it's pretty long.
00:03:40
It's a long story, but it's very interesting. >> Okay. >> And let's get into it, shall we?
00:03:46
>> Let us. >> All right. So, we're talking about a poltergeist here. Um, and this affected
00:03:50
obviously, as most poltergeists do, an entire family. >> Oh, poltergeist love nothing more than
00:03:55
like trying to break a family bond. >> They love to do that. >> Yeah, >> they're they're very reckless indeed.
00:04:01
>> Uh, but they're very interesting. And I still don't know what they are. Like when well when it's poltergeisty I feel
00:04:08
like it's like involves Am I wrong in saying it involves like electricity cuz that's how they travel, right?
00:04:13
>> No, I think you're you're correct. And I think it involves like um like physical
00:04:18
movement >> and like gnarly energy >> and like Yeah, like menacing energy. >> Yeah. I think it can feed on like
00:04:23
negative energy a lot of the times. >> That makes sense. >> Like upheavalss and changes and stress
00:04:29
and you know changing family dynamics. I think it can it can really uh >> Oh no.
00:04:34
>> I know. I was just as I said all that I was like >> check. I was like which one in our family is
00:04:42
going to get a poltergeist. >> Not it. >> Not it. >> I chin not being the one. >> It's not it.
00:04:47
>> Uh no. We're fine. Just you know >> we've going through some stuff. You guys know.
00:04:52
>> You guys know. >> Yeah. We've been taking care of the Madre. >> The Madre. But also things are so much
00:04:56
better now because one Madre is doing better and two we're with SiriusXM and we love it here.
00:05:01
>> Exactly. We're so much happier. Uh, so this this poltergeist affected the Hodgegen. The Hodgegson.
00:05:08
Why can't I say that? The Hodgegson family. >> Um, it's a little I don't know why that
00:05:13
was so hard for me to say. >> Things happen. >> Yeah. Certain sounds just my mouth is
00:05:17
like, "No, >> I forgive you." >> My mouth is literally like, "You don't know how to say that."
00:05:20
>> So, stop it, girl. >> And the internet will agree. >> So, I don't I'm like, "Oh, God. I can't
00:05:26
say it right. >> Go outside. Touch grass." Now, when this alleged poltergeist activity began, it
00:05:32
was in the summer of 1977. >> And the Hodgegson family consisted of the mother, Margaret, and three
00:05:39
children. Peggy, who was 13, Janet, who was 11, and Billy, who was 7 years old. >> All right. Peggy's other child,
00:05:46
10-year-old Johnny, was at a boarding school. This was a boarding school for like
00:05:52
kids who were getting up to something, you know, >> for the reckless. Yeah, for the for the
00:05:57
lawless, you know, a boarding school for the lawless. That's that's the official
00:06:02
title. He was at a boarding school for the for the lawless. >> That would be a great name, I think.
00:06:10
>> But, you know, Margaret never really understood what exactly was wrong with Johnny though, like what was going on.
00:06:16
Like, and I say wrong as in like that's how, you know, it was seen back then, like what's wrong with you? You got to
00:06:22
go to a boarding school for the lawless. Well, it's 1977, so there weren't a lot
00:06:25
of options. >> Exactly. Since her divorce from her husband 3 years earlier, the family had
00:06:30
lived um in one half of a duplex apartment in a council estate on Green Street in Brimdown, which was a
00:06:38
neighborhood of Enfield, which is a village in North London. >> Oh, >> I know. Like over you guys in in the uh
00:06:46
in the in Europe there, >> you got like so many and I respect it. You've got like so many little like it's
00:06:54
a village in the you know in in the township >> in the township of a council estate in
00:07:00
this place that I'm like am I getting this correct? >> It's like what's it all mean?
00:07:04
>> So yeah. So a council estate on Green Street in the Brimstone neighborhood of
00:07:08
Enfield which is a village of North in North London >> over there >> just to plot to place you.
00:07:14
>> Okay. >> Uh to drop a pin if you will. >> Here's the thing. I'm lost. >> Here's the thing. I don't know where
00:07:19
that is. Um, so because this the story focuses almost exclusively on the two um young girls in the house, little is
00:07:28
known about the boys, like there's not a lot that we can really gather. >> That happens a lot with poltergeisty
00:07:34
stories. They focus on girls coming of age, which is creepy on a poltergeist part.
00:07:39
>> It is. It's It's sus. >> It is very suspect. >> The most sus, >> as the kids would say, it's sus.
00:07:45
>> Yeah. Um, so the boys, everything's kind of described in like pretty vague terms
00:07:49
when it comes to them. Janet and Peggy, on the other hand, are frequently described as lively and athletic as well
00:07:56
as very clever and intelligent. >> A cute. >> So, in his book, This House Is Haunted,
00:08:01
um, author Guy Leon Playfare described Janet as being quote, "all energy, big for her age, jumping up and rushing
00:08:08
around on the slightest pretest." That just scared the [ __ ] It just like ramped. I was like,
00:08:17
>> we should keep this in. >> We should. Our ice maker just turned on. >> Our ice maker just turned on. So, I
00:08:23
turned it off. >> She really trotted across the room, too. That was kind of adorable.
00:08:28
>> I trotted for you guys. >> You were like, "Here I am." >> So, yeah. So, Janet's very energetic,
00:08:34
you know, jumping around, doing all that fun stuff. Peggy, meanwhile, was the opposite of Janet in nearly every way.
00:08:41
She was pleasant. She was straightforward, but she was shy, you know, a little timid and tended to keep
00:08:46
her thoughts to herself. >> Okay? >> You know, while well, Janet is very outspoken.
00:08:52
Um, but she was also reported by some to be more the more rebellious of the girls.
00:08:57
>> Okay? >> Um, often defying her mother and threatening to run away, behavior that
00:09:02
kind of coincided with her parents' divorce, which is very, you know, >> it's very normal behavior.
00:09:08
>> Yes. Uh, according to Margaret, the divorce kicked off an extended rough patch for the family. And in the years
00:09:15
that followed, she'd struggled to get back on her feet and was kind of often forced to go without and and without
00:09:21
like basic things like telephone service, you know, like really struggled. >> Like many women in the 1970s, Margaret
00:09:28
had been a full-time mother for nearly all her adult life. So when the divorce happened, she didn't have like a ton of
00:09:35
marketable skills for an employer >> and leading that led to years of unemployment and in turn a lot of
00:09:42
instability like economically. >> So on top of all the financial stress that's going on and dealing with a
00:09:48
divorce, like all that stuff, Margaret was like in constant fear that she was also going to be deemed an unfit mother
00:09:55
because she was struggling to to provide essentially >> the necessities, right? >> Yeah. And she was also very worried
00:10:01
because her son Billy was someone who had developmental disabilities. >> Oh. >> And she was worried that the authorities
00:10:07
were going to put him somewhere like a home cuz at that time could happen easily.
00:10:12
>> And that would have been awful. >> Exactly. By all accounts, the divorce had been not amicable.
00:10:18
>> Yeah. It doesn't sound like it cuz it's also like, okay, where's the [ __ ] dad
00:10:21
providing anything? Margaret was struggling to keep, you know, the anger and the bitterness that obviously came
00:10:28
from the situation like that. She she struggled to keep what she felt about her husband from the kids.
00:10:34
>> That happens a lot. >> It happens a lot. Um, as a result, the girls developed similarly negative
00:10:40
opinions of their father and strenuously objected to any visitations believing that he was the source of the family's
00:10:47
problems. >> Okay, he might have been. So, this situation was considerably exacerbated
00:10:53
in 1977 when their father began dating and eventually moved in with a new girlfriend.
00:10:58
>> Oo, that's never good. >> Which, according to Margaret, quote, had a distressing effect on the children.
00:11:03
>> Well, yeah. It's also sad. It is sad. And it's like your ex-wife is struggling
00:11:08
to provide basic necessities for your kids. You're also responsible for that, too.
00:11:13
>> Well, that's the thing. I'm like, what's happening? >> You're just shacking up with a new lady.
00:11:16
And obviously like I am I have not dealt with like a divorce and custody and all
00:11:21
that stuff. So I'm speaking from complete inexperience. >> Yeah. >> But my thoughts on it have al always
00:11:26
been like if you can try to keep the adult problems from the kids. >> Oh yeah. As a child of divorce
00:11:33
>> you really don't want to like >> we appreciate it. >> Yeah. Like you don't want to color their
00:11:37
opinion about the other one. You know what I mean? But again I'm speaking from complete inexperience so I'll shut up
00:11:42
about it because >> I don't want to piss everyone. Oh, you're really not either cuz like we've
00:11:46
experienced it in our family. >> I've at least watched it. And then me talking from an outside perspective
00:11:52
>> cuz it can really color like relationships like long term. >> Yeah, that's the thing. But then in this
00:11:57
case, you're also saying, okay, so that shouldn't have been happening. But also,
00:12:01
why isn't the father helping to make this life a little better for all of them? Their kids are included.
00:12:06
>> Yeah. >> Uh so it seems like just a lot of there's a mess happening here for sure.
00:12:10
While the picture of the this family and what was going on seems at times pretty
00:12:16
bleak and dire. >> Yeah, it does. >> They were not without any kind of support network. U Margaret's brother
00:12:21
and his wife lived with their family just six doors down from them. >> Um and they were also friendly with
00:12:27
their neighbors, Vic and Peggy, who occupied the other side of the duplex with their 20-year-old son.
00:12:32
>> Nice. Although both couples were in similarly strained financial situations, they did have like a lot of emotional
00:12:40
and mental like bandwidth to give to each other. Like they would take take care of each other in that situation and
00:12:46
they knew they could rely on each other in times of crisis which is something that a lot of people don't have. So it's
00:12:52
good that they did. >> So >> the poltergeist activity that occurred in the home started like a pretty
00:12:58
benignely on August 31st, 1977. According to Janet, at around 9:30 p.m., she was trying to get to sleep in the
00:13:06
bedroom she shared with her brother Johnny when they began hearing what she described as a shuffling sound that
00:13:12
seemed to come from the floor of the bedroom. >> So, obviously, the disturbance, you
00:13:18
know, led them to get out of their bed and search around the room. Like, they're just like, "What the [ __ ]
00:13:22
going on here? >> What's making that noise?" Which drew Margaret from her bedroom, the mom, to
00:13:27
check on them. >> Yeah. Like, what's going on? >> You hear your kids moving around. You
00:13:30
want to know what's going on. As the most energetic and mischievous of the children, Janet and Johnny always had a
00:13:36
way of feeding each other's excitement and getting each other pretty worked up. >> Uh the previous evening, Margaret had
00:13:43
scolded the two for quote larking about at bedtime. >> Quit your larking about, >> which is honestly an adorable way to say
00:13:49
that they were just like not going to sleep. >> You should write that down. >> I should quit your larking about at
00:13:53
bedtime. Because they had tried to convince her that their beds were quote going all funny, shaking up and down.
00:14:00
Huh. >> And this time she was in no mood for the antics. She went into the room and she
00:14:06
demanded to know what was going on and why they were out of bed. Uh, and they, you know, Janet explained that there was
00:14:11
shuffling noises coming from the corner of the room. And Janet told her mother, "Sounds like the chair."
00:14:17
>> H, >> which is weird. So Margaret grabbed the chair from the corner of the room and
00:14:20
carried it downstairs because she was like, "You know what? I removed it. >> It's it won't cause a anymore.
00:14:26
>> You remove the object of what's going on." and she returned to shut off the lights and remind them both that it was
00:14:32
past their bedtime and time to go to sleep, assuming that was going to be the end of the whole evening's, you know,
00:14:38
shenanigans, which you should never assume that. >> No, once it starts, it's not over that
00:14:42
easy. >> If you have kids, you know, you never assume that. We always do, but we are
00:14:47
always wrong. >> Yeah. Um, so Margaret turned to leave the room and when she went to leave, she
00:14:53
actually heard the shuffling, but she was like, "Wait, is it coming from the room or is it coming from somewhere
00:15:00
else?" She couldn't figure it out. >> So she switched on the light and she started looking around the room cuz
00:15:04
she's like, like you said, I took out the chair, so where is this coming from? And as far as she could tell, everything
00:15:10
was as it was supposed to be. And the children were in their beds, you know, arms and legs tucked under the blankets.
00:15:15
They weren't able to like shuffle anything. Yeah. >> So, she was certain it wasn't the
00:15:19
children, but still kind of uncertain what it actually was. She switched off the light for a second time and started
00:15:25
to leave the room and that's when the knocking started. >> Oh, not the knocking. Not the [ __ ]
00:15:31
hate the knocking. >> This and I'm thinking about this as like a parent like leaving and this is
00:15:37
happening like in their room. That would freak me the [ __ ] out. >> Yeah. >> Immediately I'd be like, "Okay, my room.
00:15:43
>> You're not sleeping in this room." >> No. Unlike the shuffling which was pretty quiet and like kind of subtle.
00:15:49
That's why she initially left and was like maybe I'm just >> Yeah. I mean that makes perfect sense.
00:15:53
>> They all heard the series of four loud knocks and traced them to the wall that
00:15:58
separated their apartment from Vic and Peggy's apartment next door. >> So they're like, "What the [ __ ] are Vic
00:16:03
and Peggy doing? >> Hey Vic and Peggy, >> shut the [ __ ] up." So Margaret had only
00:16:07
started to run through the possible explanations for the sound when the heavy chest of drawers started to slowly
00:16:14
slide away from the wall in the direction of the door. >> What? >> Very heavy chest of drawers. So she
00:16:22
walks towards it and pushed it back against the wall because you know >> that was a brave [ __ ] moment.
00:16:27
>> You know she's just trying to be like cool >> nothing to see here. And honestly, at
00:16:31
bedtime when you've had rough bedtimes with kids, you're like, "You know what? It's fine." She's like, "Wow, the floors
00:16:37
are so slanted. >> So crazy. >> Wild." >> So she she just pushes it back against
00:16:42
the wall. And when she turns to walk away, it started sliding towards the door again. It was like, "No, girl. I
00:16:48
want to be over here." This time when Margaret tried to push it back in its place, it wouldn't move.
00:16:54
>> No. >> It was like it had been nailed in place. It wouldn't budge. >> It said, "I like this position." putting
00:16:59
it here >> said, "I'm the interior designer now." >> Now, at this point, Margaret wanted to
00:17:04
run the [ __ ] out of the house. >> She wanted to get the [ __ ] out of there, but she didn't want to scare her
00:17:09
children cuz she's a mom >> and it's like night time. >> Yeah. So, she was like, "Hey, why don't
00:17:15
you gather up all your bedding and we're going to go sleep in the living room. It's going to be it's going to be fun
00:17:21
little sleepover. Like, let's do this." Now, in times of crisis, like I said, Margaret had always been able to rely on
00:17:28
her brother and his wife for support and which was particularly easy because they
00:17:33
were very close to them. But at this time of night, she knew they would definitely be in bed asleep and she
00:17:39
didn't want to wake them, especially considering she didn't even know what she was waking them for at this point.
00:17:43
Like, she was like, "Hey, my chest of drawers is moving." So instead, she got all four kids dressed and they went next
00:17:49
door to Vic and Peggy's apartment, reasoning that if nothing else, she wouldn't be alone in the house with
00:17:55
whatever was making the noises and moving furniture. >> This poor woman. Because what the [ __ ]
00:17:59
do you say? >> And also like to actually like put this in a more serious note. She was already
00:18:05
worried that the like somebody's going to come and take her kids away and now she's going to sound like she's losing
00:18:11
it. >> Yeah. She's going to sound a little cuckoo. So it's like that's Hello guys.
00:18:23
Mother [ __ ] low. What was that? Was that the the calendar? >> What's that? >> Is it the calendar?
00:18:29
>> I guess. >> I thought we stopped that, >> [ __ ] >> Damn, that was so loud and so scary.
00:18:36
>> What does it say? >> Nothing. >> No, don't. You're [ __ ] me. >> No, I am not [ __ ] you. It says
00:18:42
nothing. There is nothing new on this. >> It didn't. There's no popup. >> Nope. >> Do you hear the crows outside?
00:18:51
>> Do you hear that? >> Do you literally hear that, >> guys? This isn't We're not even [ __ ]
00:18:55
with your >> No, no. I wish I wish I was making it up, in fact, cuz that we are. Here's the
00:19:00
thing. We're like going somewhere spooky tonight. But it's We're somewhere spooky
00:19:03
now. >> We're living somewhere spooky. >> It is proctober. What the holy [ __ ] I
00:19:08
don't like that that plays that music so loud. >> I don't like that at all. Listen,
00:19:11
whoever this is, like >> we're just telling a story. >> It's just a It's just a case.
00:19:17
>> Yeah, >> we're not trying to [ __ ] up. >> Like, I know I sound probably like
00:19:23
insane in the membrane, but it's weird that the crows started calling when that happened. And I I just wanted to put
00:19:28
that out for the room. >> We're just putting it out there, you know? I'm going to continue.
00:19:32
>> Goodie Proctor. >> Goodie Proctober. Uh I'm literally obsessed with that. Wait. Wait. But can
00:19:40
I have confirmation though that you two think it's weird that the crow's starting
00:19:43
>> I do. I'm just trying to >> She's fidgeting. >> I'm fidget I'm touching things. I I I
00:19:48
just I really just want >> I'm fidgeting. I'm touching things. >> I want it to stop.
00:19:53
>> So, you know, they listened to Margaret's story, Vic and Peggy. They were like, you know, yeah, totally.
00:19:57
Like, they were very polite. Like, we're not going to cut you off. We're going to
00:20:00
listen to your tail. Um, but they didn't believe a word of what she was telling them.
00:20:04
>> Oh, that's [ __ ] up. my neighbor comes to my house in the middle of the night.
00:20:08
It'd be weird, but I'd be like I would listen to them if they they were experiencing a haunting.
00:20:12
>> They listened and and Vic agreed to take a walk around the house to make sure no
00:20:16
one was trying to break in. >> That's nice. >> Uh after walking through the apartment
00:20:20
and checking every potential hiding spot, Vic and his son were about to leave when they all started hearing the
00:20:26
series of knocks. >> Stop it. >> This time coming from the outside wall, not the wall that was separating their
00:20:32
apartments. >> I hate that. So assuming it was one of the children playing a prank, Vic and
00:20:36
his son Gary ran outside to see who was banging on the wall. When they got out in the alley, they found it completely
00:20:42
empty. So at a loss for what to do next, they all just reconvened and determined the
00:20:48
only thing they could do was call the police. They didn't know what else to do. They were like, "Someone's knocking
00:20:53
on our door and wall like I guess and running away. Like that's not okay. >> Somebody is
00:20:58
>> they're keeping us up. >> Somebody is knock ditching us." >> Yeah. Now, when the call was placed to
00:21:03
emergency services, the caller had only reported that there was a disturbance in
00:21:07
the house. So, the officers Yeah. the officers who arrived on the scene expected a fight or some other physical
00:21:13
emergency. But when they entered the Hodgegson's living room, they were immediately greeted by Margaret, who
00:21:19
informed them, quote, "I think this house is haunted." Which, like, Margaret, Maggie,
00:21:24
>> it's going to be tough. >> It's going to be tough to get out of that one. >> Yeah. After listening to the story about
00:21:29
a strange shuffling noise and the furniture moving back and forth on its own, the officers naturally assumed it
00:21:34
could be a break-in. So, for the second time that night, the Hodgegson's apartment was searched from top to
00:21:41
bottom. >> What? >> So, they found nothing in the upstairs bedrooms, and the officers moved to the
00:21:46
first floor and were about to give up when Johnny called everyone's attention to a chair in the corner of the living
00:21:52
room. >> Okay. >> Remember, police officers are here now. >> Yeah. In full view of the Hodgegsons,
00:21:59
Vic and Peggy and the officers, the chair began to wobble back and forth on its own and then slid three or four feet
00:22:08
in the direction of the kitchen. >> And you said in front of the cops. >> In front of the Hodgegsons, Vic and
00:22:13
Peggy, and the cops. >> Yo, I'd be so with >> no one touching it. >> Here's the thing. I would be over the
00:22:19
moon. >> Just so >> if I was like the cops and I didn't live there, I'd be like, "This is awesome.
00:22:24
I'd be like, "Thank you." so much for letting me see this. I'm leaving now. Bye.
00:22:29
>> I'd be like, >> "Yeah." When one of the officers, uh, WPC Heaps, checked the chair, she found
00:22:36
no signs of a wire or anything else that explains the movement cuz she was looking like, "Okay, what do you guys?"
00:22:42
>> Nothing. There was nothing attached to it. >> But still, no one appeared to be
00:22:46
breaking any laws and they couldn't identify the source of the disturbance. So, there was really nothing the
00:22:52
officers could do but promise to keep an eye on the house over the next couple of
00:22:55
days and just leave them. They were like, "Sorry." >> Yeah. >> Happy hauntings. Like, I don't know what
00:23:02
to say. That night, they all slept together in the living room hoping that things would resolve themselves by the
00:23:08
next morning. >> Things like that don't really resolve themselves. >> And they didn't hear because, yeah,
00:23:14
those hopes were dashed by the time the sun came up. Margaret had barely finished rousing her four children in
00:23:19
the living room when suddenly she felt something lightly strike her thigh like like a
00:23:27
>> and she looked down to see one of Billy's Lego bricks lying on the floor by her foot.
00:23:34
>> Oh no. Yeah. [Music] So Margaret said um asked like pretty annoyed at this point, "Janet, did you
00:23:56
throw that?" Like, "What the fuck?" >> Yeah, like why you throw [ __ ] at me? >> And Janet was like, "No, I did not throw
00:24:02
anything. Like I wouldn't do that." And she and all of her brother, like her siblings were like, "No, we did not do
00:24:09
that. like nobody did that. And then quickly they were interrupted. All their like no I didn't do that.
00:24:16
>> It started raining. >> When more Lego bricks and marbles started flying around the living room.
00:24:21
>> Oh, it literally started raining Legos. >> Margaret later described the situation
00:24:26
as if quote someone were shooting them as if from a catapult. >> Oh [ __ ] >> So they're being like launched across
00:24:33
the living room. You all know the [ __ ] pain of stepping on a goddamn Lego. >> The pain of stepping on a Lego.
00:24:42
>> Imagine being pelleted by one though. >> Oh, ouchie. >> I can't I can't imagine. I simply
00:24:49
>> getting shot by a Lego is crazy word. >> Yeah, it's an and marbles. >> Yeah, cuz marbles hurt too if they if
00:24:56
they're like thrown at you. >> I can't imagine this. Now, Margaret again found herself desperate in the
00:25:02
face of something she literally couldn't understand and couldn't even explain. >> Yeah.
00:25:07
>> So, she returned to Vic and Peggy's apartment and rushed back to the living room with them,
00:25:12
>> being like, "Look what's going on." Wanting someone else to witness what was happening,
00:25:15
>> Peggy called her father, who rushed over to the house. And as the group stood in
00:25:19
the kitchen, two large marbles rocketed past Peggy's father, slamming into the bathroom door before dropping to the
00:25:27
floor. What the [ __ ] When he picked them up to look at them, the marbles were incredibly hot. Like they'd been fired
00:25:35
from a gun. Oh. Like they were just burning. >> What? >> Yeah. >> As promised, the local police stopped by
00:25:44
the house later that morning cuz they said they were going to keep a watch and found the family still in distress. But
00:25:49
by that time, the activity had stopped. But one of the constables, an older gentleman, sat down with the children
00:25:56
and explained that sometimes things happen and we don't always know why. But there was nothing to worry about,
00:26:02
>> which is really nice of him, especially in the 70s. >> Whether or not that little chat made
00:26:07
them feel better is something I can't say, but it definitely did. Uh, >> not a lot to come. Margaret's growing
00:26:14
fear and anxiety cuz she was just waiting for another attack at this point. this whatever this is is probably
00:26:20
just feeding off >> feeding off of that anxiety and fear. And the next few days went by with
00:26:25
intermittent interruptions of knocking some moving objects and the the family gathered in the living room and they
00:26:32
tried and failed to sleep for the next few nights. It was just it was really bad.
00:26:35
>> Yeah. Stressful. >> By September 4th, Margaret had become exhausted and the strain of all this
00:26:40
disruption was very apparent to everyone around her. So concerned about her health and
00:26:46
safety, Vic, her neighbor, suggested he take the family back to the police in the hope that they could maybe put them
00:26:52
up somewhere for a few days so they could at least get a good night's sleep. >> Yeah.
00:26:55
>> Which was very nice of them. >> Sweet. >> But Peggy had what she thought might be
00:26:59
a better idea rather than go back to the police who had kind of been like >> I I don't want to say they've been
00:27:05
little help. They they were a little help, but like they really what else are they going to do? Like they've been as
00:27:10
much help as they could be. Well, you can't place the poltergeist in handcuffs. >> Yeah. So, they did what they could. I
00:27:15
mean, they tried to like calm the kids and everything, and they did come back to the house when they promised they
00:27:19
would, >> which was kind. >> So, uh, Peggy suggested that they call the Daily Mirror to see if they had any
00:27:25
ideas. >> All right. >> One of the UK's most notorious tabloids. >> Yeah. >> The Daily Mirror had a reputation for
00:27:32
publishing pretty sensational stories and a lot of Lauren scandals. >> Uhhuh. I think they still do.
00:27:38
>> Yeah. According to Guy Playfair, there was supposedly quote an unwritten law on
00:27:42
that paper that ghost stories were taboo. >> Oh, okay. >> Um, but the paper had published a lot of
00:27:48
articles about ghosts and hauntings in the recent past. So, it was >> so maybe not so much.
00:27:52
>> They didn't really adhere to it. Um, whatever the case, Peggy got lucky when she called that Sunday evening and
00:27:58
reached the deputy night editor, who was very intrigued and sent reporter Douglas
00:28:03
Bence and photographer Graham Morris to investigate the claims. The two spent the entire evening in the Hodgegson
00:28:10
home, but never witnessed any unusual activity and eventually decided to pack up and leave a little after 2 a.m.,
00:28:16
which I was like, 2 a.m., you got to stay at least three. >> They hadn't been out of the house for
00:28:21
more than a minute when the Lego bricks started flying around the room again, which made Peggy's father rush outside
00:28:28
and call them back into the house. Morris told a reporter in 2022, "To start with, we thought it was a hoax,
00:28:34
but I saw things happen and it convinced me there was something happening in that
00:28:37
house." >> Standing in the kitchen with Margaret, Morris saw something was coming at him
00:28:42
out of the corner of his eye, and he turned just in time to be struck in the forehead with the sharp corner of a Lego
00:28:48
brick. >> Yeah. He said later, "I knew that no one was throwing anything because I could
00:28:54
see everybody in the room." >> Yeah. Despite seeing the Legos flying across the room, they appeared to be
00:28:59
moving too quickly and Morris was unable to get any of them like clearly on film.
00:29:04
>> Okay. >> Cuz they were like launching. >> Yeah. >> When they returned to the office the
00:29:08
next day, the two men told senior reporter George Fallows what had happened the night before and he
00:29:13
immediately was interested in the story. Later that afternoon, they all returned
00:29:17
to the uh Hodgson house where they listened patiently as Margaret recounted all the events of the previous week.
00:29:24
When she finished the story, the reporter looked at her right in the eye and told her, "I accept what you say.
00:29:30
I'm not an expert, but I've done a lot of reading on this sort of thing. I think that what you have in your house
00:29:35
is a poltergeist." >> Wow. >> I love that he was just like, "I accept what you say."
00:29:41
>> Fallows went on to explain to Margaret that in his reporting, he'd seen some things of this nature before and felt
00:29:47
the best thing they could do was contact someone at the Society for Psychical Research, the SPR.
00:29:52
>> Okay. a collection of volunteer journalists, scientists, and paranormal enthusiasts founded in the late 19th
00:29:59
century to investigate supernatural experiences. So relieved that someone was finally having, you know, some kind
00:30:07
of like belief and idea of what they were dealing with, Margaret was like, "Hell yeah, let's go." And immediately
00:30:13
reached out to the SPR for some a consultation. So, in response to this request for help, the SPR uh assigned
00:30:20
the case to their newest member, who was 58-year-old electrical engineer. >> Wow.
00:30:25
>> An inventor Maurice Gross. So, Gross had like he to he looked at it like very
00:30:30
logically. His like the supernatural and all of this, which is a good way to look
00:30:34
at things because he's one that's going to look at it in a way that he's going to want to try to debunk it. An unbiased
00:30:40
way. Um, but his youngest daughter Janet had died a year earlier and so his interest now became like much more
00:30:48
personal because he was looking for proof of life after death. >> Oh, that's just breaks my heart.
00:30:53
>> Absolutely it does. Now, what happened to his daughter Janet was in August of
00:30:57
1976, she was 22 years old and was traveling on the back of a motorcycle driving
00:31:02
through the center of Cardiff when the driver lost control and crashed. And >> he was killed instantly and he left
00:31:09
Janet with serious injuries. Um, and she died the following day. >> Oh, that's awful.
00:31:14
>> Naturally, Janet's death was devastating for her parents, >> of course. Um it took a serious toll on
00:31:19
their marriage, their emot emotional health, like all the all the things you would imagine. Um and in the wake of his
00:31:26
daughter's death, Maurice delved deeper into his supernatural interests because again, he really wanted to look for
00:31:32
proof of life after death. And he believed that Janet had actually had a premonition of her death a short time
00:31:38
earlier and had become determined to find >> that she did know that that was about to
00:31:43
happen and that her soul had lived on after her body had died. Oh, >> as the newest member of the SPR, Gross
00:31:51
hadn't really participated in a lot of investigations, so he hadn't dealt with a lot of like the hoaxes and the
00:31:57
disappointments that a lot of the more like seasoned members had. >> Um, but either way, he was just very
00:32:02
enthusiastic about this. He wanted to just get his feet wet. >> Yeah. >> Um, he had only just walked through the
00:32:08
Hodson's front front door before he was pretty certain that something was up here. He later told Playfair, um, you
00:32:16
can't fake that. Everything they told me was typical of poltergeist cases, straight out of the book. Since they
00:32:21
didn't even know what a poltergeist was until Fows told them, how would they know what to say if they were making
00:32:26
this all up? >> Yeah. >> Now, Gross's presence was an immediate, you know, soothing feeling for the
00:32:33
chaotic house. Like they felt like, okay, he's here. He believes us. >> Yeah. >> And he's here to like figure this out
00:32:39
and help us get rid of it. He was very supportive in like a very like fatherly way to the family and immediately took
00:32:46
to the children and they took to him >> cuz he is a dad. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. He's got that way
00:32:52
about him. >> Yeah. And most importantly to them, he seemed to believe everything that every
00:32:56
member told him. Like he was just willing to accept what they were saying and then he was like and we'll see if we
00:33:01
can prove it. But he was still like very untested in this territory. You know what I mean? So he's going in here.
00:33:09
>> Yeah. Uh former paranormal investigator John Hastid said later, "When you go to
00:33:14
such a disturbed family and you are not a professional psychiatric social worker, you feel ashamed of yourself.
00:33:20
You feel that you shouldn't be investigating them. You should really be helping them."
00:33:24
>> Yeah. >> Um by all accounts, Maurice Gross never seemed to struggle with dealing with
00:33:30
this family, like emotionally and on this like supernatural investigatory level. He simply believed everything
00:33:37
they told him. He didn't seem to go in there with the idea that this was definitely a hoax.
00:33:41
>> Yeah. He was open to whatever it was, >> which I don't think he should have. >> You know, he should go in there
00:33:46
completely open to what's going on and then decide based on the evidence. >> Yeah.
00:33:52
>> But his only goal going in there too, like his main goal, I should say, was that he wanted to protect these kids and
00:33:59
he wanted to protect Janet especially because he felt very connected like she >> I mean there's a daughter Janet Janet.
00:34:07
Now, according to Bob Cody, um, >> can I actually just point out how like, >> isn't that wild?
00:34:13
>> Life works in Mysterio. I feel like that has meaning. >> I feel like he was brought in for a
00:34:17
reason. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Now, we've we've sourced all like cited all these in the show notes so you can
00:34:23
take a peek. But according to Bob Cody, after reviewing the request from the Hodgsons, the senior members of the SPR
00:34:29
didn't believe there was anything in the Enfield case or expect it to be particularly important at first. So they
00:34:35
assigned it to Maurice Gross, assuming he would look into it and find nothing there. Gross, however, threw himself
00:34:42
fully into this investigation without hesitation. And within a few days in the house, his commitment was starting to
00:34:48
pay off. >> Okay. >> In the early morning hours of September 8th, 1977, Maurice Gross and the men
00:34:54
from the Daily Mirror were sitting on the landing outside Janet's bedroom while the girl was sleeping inside, and
00:35:00
they heard a loud crash from inside the bedroom. They rushed in and saw that the
00:35:04
chair that had been sitting next to Janet's bed had been thrown about 4 feet and was overturned near the center of
00:35:10
the room. >> Jesus. >> Janet w she woke up, but she was like groggy and like not awake. And she said
00:35:17
she had been asleep when that happened and was just shot out of sleep. >> Yeah. >> So Gross put the chair back where it
00:35:22
belonged and went back to the landing. About an hour later, they heard the same noise. And when they rushed in, they
00:35:27
found the chair had again been thrown to the center of the room. Wanting to be sure Janet had in fact been asleep and
00:35:33
not just playing a prank. Yeah. >> Gross approached the sleeping girl and gently forced the lids of one of her
00:35:39
eyes apart to find the eyeball upturned. >> Ah offering that up to the men from the
00:35:44
mirror as proof that the activity was genuinely paranormal in nature. Uh he told the reporters it's almost as if she
00:35:51
were unconscious. Yeah. Which I I can see that. Yeah. A few days later, during a lecture put on by the SPR, Gross
00:35:58
announced to the room that he was certain that he was onto a genuine poltergeist case and could use some
00:36:04
help. But a lot of people weren't taking him seriously or having any interest in
00:36:09
joining his team, which makes me sad. >> [ __ ] them. In fact, in out of the room
00:36:13
full of people, only one journalist guy Leon Playfair approached Gross after the
00:36:18
lecture and told him he would very much like to assist him and report on the activity, which Gross was like, "Hell
00:36:24
yeah, brother." >> He's like, "You're my only You're my only hope." >> Literally,
00:36:31
he said that that he did premandy more. >> Yeah. At the time, Playfair had just finished the final edits on the cycles
00:36:38
of heaven, which was um an exploration into extraterrestrials and co cosmic forces on the body.
00:36:44
>> That sounds [ __ ] fun. >> It does sound cool. And was looking for his next project. Although the idea of
00:36:49
diving right back into a new paranormal story right after finishing one didn't appeal to him like a lot right now. He
00:36:56
was pretty charmed by Moraurice Gross's enthusiasm. He was like he really believed this [ __ ] and like he he got
00:37:02
me. Uh he and he seemed very sincere. That was the thing. And he didn't want to miss this opportunity with that kind
00:37:08
of enthusiasm. >> Yeah. >> So with the addition of PlayFair, there were now four or five men regularly
00:37:14
camped out in the Hodgegson's apartment. And they were routinely treated to a variety of supernatural activity ranging
00:37:20
from marbles and Legos flying around the room to drawers and cabinets opening and
00:37:25
closing on their own. In fact, the frequency of the activity and Janet's proximity to it seemed
00:37:32
wild. Like it was starting to get like even like at this point, Maurice Gross said that he was even a little
00:37:39
suspicious at this point cuz it was like always around Janet. >> Yeah. And there's three other kids.
00:37:44
>> And again, they have to be suspicious. You have to be. >> I would be too. Yeah, totally.
00:37:48
>> A few days after bringing Playfair on board, Gross had a talk with Margaret and insisted she keep an eye on her
00:37:53
daughter as often as possible. And he told her, he said to Margaret, "I'm not saying she's playing tricks, but we
00:37:59
can't rule out the possibility that this thing is working on her mind, making her
00:38:03
do things without knowing why." >> That was a smart way to approach it. >> That really was. It was at that moment
00:38:08
that Gross established what is one of the most frequently criticized parts of this case. In the same breath, he did
00:38:15
say it's possible that Janet is the one responsible for everything in the house,
00:38:19
but he was also ruling out the possibility of a hoax by saying that it was caused by a supernatural f force.
00:38:25
So, that's what a lot of people criticize this for. >> I see it as a way of soothing the mom
00:38:31
and not >> getting her defensive by being like, I think your kid is causing this.
00:38:37
>> Yeah. >> Because I would get defensive about that. >> Of course you would. And you'd probably
00:38:40
ask him to leave. And so I think he was doing it as a way to get her to make sure she was watching Janet while also
00:38:46
making her feel heard and not like she was being accused of. >> That's what I think cuz also he wanted
00:38:51
to stay and get to the bottom of this. Exactly. And if he approached it the other way, she might have been like,
00:38:55
"Okay, then like go away if you don't think I'm >> go if you don't believe me." >> Now on September 10th, um the p the
00:39:01
story was published on the front page of the Daily Mirror in an article written by George Fallows with photographs by
00:39:07
Graham Morris. >> It's so funny. It's like right around this time. >> Yeah, it is. and we didn't plan it.
00:39:11
>> Yeah, >> the article was relatively straightforward, talking about what the Hodgsons had
00:39:17
claimed had happened in the house leading up to the article, concluding, quote, "To the best of our ability, we
00:39:22
have eliminated the possibility of total trickery." >> Okay. >> Now, not surprisingly, the article was
00:39:27
met with skepticism and, you know, a lot of disbelief, >> right? >> Um, and it attracted the attention of
00:39:33
other media outlets, all wanting to know more about this situation. now. >> Mhm.
00:39:36
>> Just days after the Daily Mirror article, Gross and Margaret Hodgson appeared on a television call-in program
00:39:43
Night Line. After listening to Margaret tell all about the activity, the hosts opened the phone lines and caller after
00:39:50
caller started sharing their own paranormal experiences. >> That's so fun. >> Including a few who told stories of
00:39:56
levitation and some who claimed to have witnessed supposed possessions in which the possessed individual started
00:40:02
speaking in a voice that was not their own. >> I hate those. Now in the weeks after that the activity
00:40:08
in the house seemed to escalate. You know the knocking on the walls became more frequent. Objects were moving on
00:40:14
their own and the households was gen generally disturbed from morning to night. >> Wow.
00:40:19
>> Uh believing the entity was attempting to make contact with them. Gross reached
00:40:23
out to Lorraine Warren. >> Do you know do you know her? >> Heard her. >> An American medium recommended by
00:40:29
television host Paul Beard. By mid-occtober, Lorraine had made her way to London, accompanied by her husband,
00:40:35
Ed. >> We know him, and the two visited the Hodgegson's home in order to contact
00:40:40
whatever was causing the disturbance. Positioned in a chair at the center of the room, Lorraine went into some sort
00:40:45
of trance. And soon after, she claimed to have made contact with the entity. >> Okay,
00:40:50
>> with Ed Warren, you know, let's go. With Ed Warren only a few inches from her
00:40:54
face, Lorraine suddenly shouted, "Go away! >> Go away!" before launching into a fit of
00:41:00
laughter that quickly escalated into what Playfair described as quote a grotesque cackle like one of the McBth
00:41:07
witches, which is actually genuinely scary. >> Yeah, that is pretty scary. I feel like
00:41:11
I'd probably [ __ ] my pants. >> Yeah. After communing with the entity, Ed Warren explained that the Hodgegson
00:41:16
family was under attack from two spirits he referred to as Gozer and Elvie. This
00:41:22
Gozer is a nasty piece of work, Ed told Gross and Playfair. a sort of black magic chap.
00:41:28
>> The other one, Elvie, is an elemental. >> Oh, okay. What? >> And Gozer is using her. He's the boss.
00:41:36
If we get her out of the way, the whole setup will fall apart. >> Okay, this sounds a little
00:41:41
>> I kind of love this. >> Sounds a little wild, >> but I love it. >> I I'm not saying I hate it.
00:41:45
>> The Warren explained that a psychic weakness and a very disturbed family condition had created the circumstances
00:41:52
that allowed the two demonic entities to enter their lives. That does make sense.
00:41:56
>> Although they had been speaking in extremely vague terms, the explanation resonated with Margaret who told them
00:42:02
that she had indeed been bitter since her divorce and the family had been struggling since that time. It's all
00:42:08
true >> to Guy Playfair. The Warren's performance in the Hodgekkins living room seemed like a very dramatic bit of
00:42:14
theater. >> Okay. >> But Maurice Gross believed the couple's claim of psychic ability and their story
00:42:19
of demons and elementals. So, who can be sure? Whatever the case, the Warren's visit seemed to provide Margaret with
00:42:26
some comfort. Okay. >> So, she at least was getting answers, >> which is nice. >> So, Playfair saw no reason to challenge
00:42:32
their involvement. >> I get that. >> Um, but that was really the extent of their participation in this.
00:42:37
>> Love that. >> While the Warren's visit may have brought some comfort to the family, it
00:42:40
really didn't do anything to stop the activity, which by the end of October had extended outside the home and into
00:42:46
the classroom. >> Oh, no. After a few days, Janet's teachers, who were aware of the
00:42:50
children's difficulty adjusting to the divorce, had lost patience with her and referred her to a social worker and
00:42:56
clinical psychologist. >> Oh no. >> Despite all the activity around her, Janet never seemed all that bothered by
00:43:03
the constant disruptions at Homer's school, she told Maurice Gross in early November, "I'm getting used to it." Oh,
00:43:10
>> but one evening while Gross was asking Janet questions about her experiences,
00:43:14
she did say that there was one thing that did scare her, which makes me sad. >> Every now and then, often when she was
00:43:20
trying to get to sleep, she felt like someone was putting a hand over her nose and mouth in order to stop her from
00:43:26
breathing. >> Oh, that's [ __ ] terrible. >> She gave me full chills. I would fist
00:43:31
fight whoever that was. >> I hate that a lot. >> Invisible or not. >> Yeah, I hate that a lot. Um, Gross got
00:43:38
up and left the room, turning the lights out as he left. He hadn't been outside the room for more than a minute or two
00:43:43
when he heard a loud crash and went rushing back up the stairs. And in Janet's room, he found her sitting up in
00:43:49
bed and the chair, which was usually next to the bed, had been thrown to the center of the room. Janet said there was
00:43:55
an old man sitting on the chair. He was putting his hands on my face. I couldn't
00:43:59
breathe. Oh, >> which like, oh, I hate >> like, is that Gozer? >> Probs. Now, for nearly three months,
00:44:06
Gross and Playfair, along with one or two men from the Daily Mirror, were camped out at the Hodgegson's home with
00:44:12
at least the former two completely convinced that something supernatural was happening.
00:44:17
>> I don't know how you could be unconvinced. >> Something bad's happening. You know,
00:44:21
>> others who visited the house were less convinced. When senior members of the SPR visited the house in early November,
00:44:28
they witnessed Janet and her sister quote, "Add to the activity with some tricks of their own."
00:44:32
>> Okay. Well, yeah. Yeah. Leading them to conclude that in all likelihood this whole thing was a hoax.
00:44:38
>> I know. It's like adding to it is one thing. Obviously like it doesn't look great, but they're kids.
00:44:43
>> Yeah. And play feel fair and gross said that the girls obvious tricks were not
00:44:47
really concerning to them. Yeah. Like they they could tell what they were. They could tell what they weren't.
00:44:52
>> Probably a way of coping with this all. >> Whenever it got brought up that like you
00:44:56
know it seems like whenever we're not looking these things are happening like like when you leave Janet's room Yeah.
00:45:02
and the chair is being throwed. Gross and Playfair would say, "It's smarter than we are. Look at its timing. The
00:45:07
moment you go out of the room, something happens. You stay in the room for hours
00:45:10
and nothing moves. It knows what we're up to." >> Okay. They figured it only happened like
00:45:16
that. It was It had nothing to do with childish pranks. It was just a smart entity, that's all.
00:45:22
>> And I mean, who knows? >> Could be. In the weeks and months that followed, there were more visitors to
00:45:28
the house who, like the more experienced members of the SPR, found that they didn't really believe a lot of it. They
00:45:34
thought it was a hoax. >> Okay. >> The stories in the Daily Mirror attracted other journalists who all
00:45:40
seemed a little like annoyed by the whole thing, which like is sad. >> Yeah. There's like kids being affected
00:45:45
here. >> Yeah, that's the thing. In a short article, a November edition of The Observer um made an innocuous comment
00:45:51
about Gross being quote a newcomer to the SPR. And he wrote a response to clarify. Uh he said, "I think it's only
00:45:59
fair to both myself and the society I represent to point out that although I'm I am comparatively a new member, I have
00:46:06
been actively involved in the study of parasychology for nearly 40 years." >> Absolutely. He should he should put that
00:46:12
out there. >> Yeah. It's like don't Yeah. Don't don't don't talk about me like I'm I didn't
00:46:17
know this. >> Yeah. Like I just stepped on the scene. Exactly. >> The London newspapers weren't the only
00:46:22
ones who grew skeptical of the family and were, you know, questioning aspects. >> You know what the thing is though?
00:46:27
People just get so sick of a story once it's been reported on for a while and they want to move on to the next thing.
00:46:32
>> Yeah. In her summary article for the Journal of of the Society for Cyclical Research, SPR member Anita Gregory
00:46:39
concluded that Janet and her sister were quote non uh psychically responsible for
00:46:45
many of the incidents that were attributed to poltergeist phenomena. Now, she said many, not all.
00:46:50
>> Yeah. Um, also Gregory acknowledged that whatever was happening in the house might have had a supernatural origin,
00:46:56
but after a few months, quote, it had turned quickly into a farcical performance for investigators and
00:47:02
reporters desiring a sensational story. So, they're admitting that there was some supernatural thing here.
00:47:08
>> I mean, the cops said they saw it. >> Anita Gregory's summary of the case was
00:47:13
like pretty charitable, actually, compared to other people who were talking [ __ ] about this whole thing. Um,
00:47:19
but as time went by, the growing number number of vocal skeptics came to far outnumber the true believers,
00:47:25
unfortunately, leading Margaret to bar all investigators and reporters from the house.
00:47:30
>> I would too, >> other than their, you know, Maurice Gross and Guy Playfair because they were
00:47:35
the only ones that were willing to listen and were being respectful. [Music] Gross said to Playfair, "What beats me
00:47:54
is the obsession these people have with what they call fraud. It's all they can think about." But even Playfair had
00:48:00
started to at this point question whether they also might be victims of a host of a hoax, excuse me.
00:48:06
>> Okay. >> Which like I get it. >> Yeah, >> they have to think that way. On one
00:48:11
occasion, after a large chest of drawers had crashed against the wall in Janet's
00:48:15
bedroom, Playfair listened back to the tape recorder he'd left in the room, and he quote, "heard suspicious creaking
00:48:21
noises as if someone like Janet had slipped up to the chest." Which I'm also like, "Do you know her specific creaking
00:48:29
noises?" >> Yeah. Like what? >> Like what? Like I don't know about that. So, in early November, just a few days
00:48:36
after Janet's 12th birthday, Playfair and Gross decided it was time to make contact with whatever was tormenting the
00:48:41
family, reasoning that if they knew what it wanted, they would be better equipped
00:48:45
to make it go away. >> Yeah, >> they had tried this before by using a series of knocks, but it wasn't
00:48:50
successful. This time they decided they would leave several notepads and pencils
00:48:55
laying around the apartment and within days the messages all in crude handwriting and capital letters started
00:49:00
appearing. Mhm. Which is pretty creepy. On the first occasion, Margaret was standing in this kitchen and said to the
00:49:08
seemingly empty room, "Leave me a message so I can help you if possible without knocking." Margaret left the
00:49:14
room and when she returned 5 or 10 minutes later, she found the response scratched out on the sheet of paper. I
00:49:20
will stay in this house. Do not read this to anyone else or I will retaliate. >> Oh [ __ ]
00:49:25
>> Which is [ __ ] terrifying. >> And also retaliate is a very big word for a child.
00:49:29
>> Exactly. Almost immediately, Playfair noticed that the message had not been written on a sheet of paper from the
00:49:35
pad, but on a page torn from one of Janet's school notebooks, though she insisted it wasn't her that
00:49:42
wrote the note, and they decided to believe her. >> Okay, so there's that. All right,
00:49:48
>> we're going to give you all sides of the story. >> We got to give you all the facts.
00:49:51
>> The following day, during a phone call with her ex-husband, the couple got into
00:49:55
an argument when the subject of the poltergeist came up. Her ex-husband believed the entire thing was a prank.
00:50:01
>> Uh, in a moment of impulsivity, Margaret blurted out what the poltergeist had
00:50:05
written on the pad, and then she immediately remembered that it was a warning and said, "Don't tell anyone."
00:50:11
So, she shouted out, "Oh, I'm sorry." Like speaking to the poltergeist. And hung up the phone. A few minutes later,
00:50:18
when she returned to the living room, she found another forgiving and oddly sympathetic note
00:50:23
that said, "A misunderstanding. Don't do it again. I know who that was." >> Wait, I think that's actually really
00:50:30
funny. And also kind of obsessive. >> I'm so sorry. Like, that's the kids. >> And also,
00:50:34
>> like that's so sweet. >> The kids are like, "Don't worry, mom. I mean, it's cool.
00:50:38
>> I mean, Margaret, I know you were talking to dad. I get it. That's actually really cute."
00:50:43
>> I was like, "That's actually really cute." Oh my god. >> The notes, if it is the demon, I kind of
00:50:49
love that as well. It's like misunderstanding. I get it. >> It happens. Strike one. There's three.
00:50:54
>> It's fine. The notes continued into December and were soon accompanied by what Gross and Playfair determined was
00:51:00
Janet's psychic writing and drawing. In one image, she drew a picture of a woman, quote, with blood pouring out of
00:51:07
her throat, and next to it was the name Watson. The pictures continued in the days after
00:51:13
that. always a bloody scenes and referencing someone named Watson. >> Okay. >> One afternoon, Guy asked Margaret if the
00:51:20
name meant anything to her, and she said, "Oh, yes, that was the couple who lived in the house before we moved in."
00:51:27
>> Okay. >> According to Margaret, the Watsons had lived there about 12 years earlier, and
00:51:31
Mr. Watson died in the house, though she didn't know of what. >> Shut the [ __ ] up.
00:51:36
>> Yeah. The drawings went on for a few weeks and were soon accompanied by what PlayFare described as barking and
00:51:42
whistling sounds that appeared to come from Janet. Though unusual, she insisted she wasn't
00:51:50
doing it like like she wasn't in control of it. >> Like she wasn't doing it on purpose.
00:51:55
Instead, the men determined that it was the poltergeist trying to speak with them using Janet as a conduit.
00:52:00
>> Okay. The problem was that the entity refused to make any noise or attempt to
00:52:05
communicate whenever any of the adults were in the room. Only when Janet would be left out of sight, but still with an
00:52:10
earshot. >> Okay. >> One afternoon, while Gross was trying to make contact with the entity, a strange
00:52:15
noise came from the direction of the room where Janet and Peggy were sitting. >> Okay.
00:52:20
>> Excited, Gross started asking the entity, "Can you tell me what your name is?" There was a pause and then the
00:52:25
entity said, "Joe Watson." M thrilled by this turn of events, Gross rushed into the room and said, "That was a man's
00:52:33
voice, wasn't it?" To which Peggy replied, "Yes, it's not ours." Okay. Now, Gross went back out into the hall,
00:52:40
now joined by Playfair and the girl's mother, and they started interrogating the entity. He had lived in the house,
00:52:46
the voice insisted. Though, when they asked how long ago, they got no response, only knocking. Then Guy asked
00:52:52
whether the entity knew he was dead and Joe replied in a grally tone, "Shut up."
00:52:59
Confident they were on track to get rid of this, the two men started attempting to explain that Joe was a disembodied
00:53:05
spirit and he needed to leave the house and leave this family in peace. But Joe was very uninterested in that.
00:53:11
>> All right. Each time they wanted to ask a question, Playfair would burst into
00:53:14
the room and address the entity. But the response would only come when he left Janet and Peggy alone in the room. The
00:53:20
more they tried to persuade Joe to leave the house and move on, the more abusive
00:53:24
the voice became. >> Telling them to [ __ ] off and bug her off. >> Oh no. >> In addition to a litany of other
00:53:30
vulgarities. >> We have Logan Roy on the set. >> Yeah. So on their second communication
00:53:36
session, Gross asked um who they were speaking with, and the entity gave the name Bill. And so Gross said, "Bill."
00:53:44
And he said, "When we spoke to you on Saturday night, you said your name was Joe." And the voice responded with a
00:53:49
string of nonsense followed by vulgarities and they couldn't figure it out. Okay,
00:53:54
>> but it could have been a second one. >> You never know. >> I'm just thinking. The communication
00:53:58
with Joe though went on for several weeks and Gross and Play affairs recordings were even played on a BBC
00:54:03
radio broadcast for like millions of people. >> Wow. But despite the investigators
00:54:08
holding up their recordings as further evidence of a genuine poltergeist, the communications were never
00:54:13
>> really like they didn't have a lot of substance to them and they didn't provide any real insight into what was
00:54:18
happening. >> Yeah. >> At least not in the way that like Gross and Playfair were thinking they did or
00:54:22
wanted them to. >> In the years since they were recorded, the communications with the poltergeist
00:54:27
have been held up as one of, if not the strongest piece of evidence that the entire thing was actually a hoax. Oh.
00:54:33
When professional ventriloquist Ray Allen visited the house, he quickly determined that Janet wasn't exactly a
00:54:40
conduit for the voice so much as she was the one creating the voice. >> So now she's a ventriloquist.
00:54:45
>> Exactly. As evidence, Alan pointed out that the sounds Janet was making were coming from her throat rather than the
00:54:52
larynx where the human voice is produced, which would be the ma way to make the voice sound husky or raspy.
00:54:59
>> Okay. >> Like an older man's voice. Like the other professional investigators, Alan
00:55:03
concluded that the communications were a hoax created by Janet and her sister because quote, "They obviously loved all
00:55:09
the attention they got when objects were mysteriously moved around the house and
00:55:12
they decided to keep the whole thing going by inventing the voice." A >> but it's got too big for them and they
00:55:18
don't know how to stop what they started. That's what he had concluded. >> All right.
00:55:21
>> As they had done before, Gross and Playfair jumped to Janet's defense with Playfair writing, "The connection
00:55:27
between Janet and the Voice is obviously very close. There have been several occasions when she says something it
00:55:32
obviously meant to say and vice versa. Would she slip up like that if she was faking the whole thing?
00:55:37
>> Right here. Again, he's he's really just like trying desperately to believe this
00:55:44
child and not paint her as like a prankster essentially. >> But Joe Nickel put it like who was also
00:55:50
on this um and is cited in the uh show notes. >> He put it as evidence of ventriloquil
00:55:57
figury. That's hard to say. ventriloqu >> was even taken as proof of a authenticity.
00:56:03
Now, the point of origin for the voice wasn't the only thing that caused skeptics to raise an eyebrow. The
00:56:08
content of the communications was also a little suspicious. While the conversations between Gross Playfair and
00:56:14
Joe/Bill were typically rambling and unfocused and kind of nonsense, they were also peppered with a significant
00:56:20
number of gratuitous obscenities and vulgar language from the entity. Usually not really making sense.
00:56:28
>> So it was just kind of fun for a kid to swear possibly >> to swear in an old man voice.
00:56:32
>> Yeah, I mean it is fun to swear >> in an old man voice. >> [ __ ] you. That feels good.
00:56:41
>> That is messy. >> Oh [ __ ] >> You dumb [ __ ] >> That does feel nice, you know.
00:56:55
>> Oh, [ __ ] >> That is fun. >> It's the best. >> I I forgive it. >> It's I forgive it.
00:57:04
>> It's understandable. >> Your parents just got divorced. Do you want to you want to polarge guys up?
00:57:10
>> Hell yeah. Now, given the era in which this happened, it's not that surprising
00:57:15
that just cuz just a few years earlier, The Exorcists had a pretty similar situation in which a young girl was
00:57:22
possessed by an evil spirit who frequently used very aggressive and vulgar language, often sexually graphic
00:57:28
language to shock and disturb people in the film. >> Yeah. But The Exorcist was written by an
00:57:34
adult who understood how expletives function in communications. In the Enfield case, on the other hand, the
00:57:42
vulgar language was just inserted into the conversation awkwardly. >> I so wish we had a quote like a child,
00:57:48
you know? >> I'm trying to think your kids like a voice sworn correctly. >> I think they're just I know, right? Like
00:57:54
you have to have in the right context. >> Yeah. And I feel like it was just kind
00:57:57
of they'd be like, "Hey, so how long have you lived here?" and they'd be like, "Cunt like I feel like it was just
00:58:03
like it wasn't, you know, like that feels like it was probably how it was." >> Isn't it funny? Like because you've been
00:58:09
an adult so long and swearing so long, it's hard to think how to swear incorrectly,
00:58:13
>> like out of context. >> Like I can't figure it out. >> It feels like the kids understood that
00:58:17
the, you know, the words are supposedly bad words and not to be used in polite conversation, but they're only able to
00:58:24
use them in a way that they think would be shocking and like just being like, "Bitch, like just out of nowhere. No.
00:58:33
So, also a lot of people noted that the poltergeist seemed unusually interested in some surprising subjects.
00:58:39
>> Okay. >> Writing in 2016, psychologist Chris French wrote, quote, "When Janet was
00:58:45
supposedly possessed by the spirit of an old man, he took a lot of interest in menstruation."
00:58:51
>> That's not something you'd expect an old man to be interested in, but a young
00:58:55
girl, well, yes. In fact, when speaking through Janet, Joe seemed unusually preoccupied with
00:59:03
the particularities of bodily functions, much the way a pubescent childhood. In fact, why do we [ __ ] fart?
00:59:17
Why? Why [ __ ] do we fart, [ __ ] Does your [ __ ] dad's [ __ ] your period? That's what I'm thinking of.
00:59:35
It's so nonsensical. >> How old [ __ ] are you with the start? Screaming. I am screaming. Oh my god. Oh, in fact,
00:59:55
when considered as a whole, the responses given by the poltergeist don't sound like an adult at all, but like a
01:00:02
child pretending to be an adult. I think, excuse me, I think you mean an icon pretending to be an adult. In fact,
01:00:07
here's here's one that's just like silliness. When um when investigators asked Joe where he had come from, the
01:00:14
most complete answer that they were given was, "I come from out of the grave in Durant in Durant's park."
01:00:28
And it was basically like anytime they asked about death, they were like, "Graves.
01:00:35
>> I come from out of the grave. >> Rising from the grave." Like it was very cartoony.
01:00:40
>> I love it. >> Yeah. A lot of like spiritual imagery that was like very immature, I think.
01:00:45
>> Oh my god, I'm crying. >> Yeah. So, the communication continued into the following year, but the
01:00:50
conversations never elevated um beyond, you know, crude threats, vulgarities, and a lot of strange thoughts and ideas.
01:00:58
All right. >> Um but the recordings of these conversation remain some of the most
01:01:02
frequently cited examples of the legitimacy of the claim the claims in this case.
01:01:06
>> I'm going to find those tapes. I We got to find him. From the grave. From the grave. Oh man.
01:01:15
>> Stop it. >> It's kind of scary. It is. >> Yeah. >> Okay. This is genuinely terrifying.
01:01:25
>> Here's the thing, though. My oldest can make that sound. >> Actually, facts. Fact. She could She
01:01:32
could scare the [ __ ] out of us. >> She does it sometimes just to like freak us out. What?
01:01:37
>> Like some her she can speak from that place of like making it >> that's so weird
01:01:41
>> sound crazy. >> I was picturing like this. >> Yeah. Like like it's very like >> Yeah.
01:01:47
>> It's rounded. Whatever it is rounded. I don't know how it feels rounded >> like
01:01:58
>> [ __ ] >> It sounds like Bluey swearing. ball is talking talking. >> This should be an episode of Blueie. The
01:02:20
creator of Blueie has run out of ideas and I would like to formally request an episode where they pretend to be
01:02:25
possessed. Thank you. >> Thank you for hearing me out. >> I think his name is Joe, the creator of
01:02:32
Blue Age. Joe and I think it's very coincidental that this entity's name is Joe. I think we
01:02:39
are calling >> I think the universe is telling you this is the next episode. >> Not only that, but this girl's name is
01:02:44
Janet. Oh my god. >> Janet and Rita get possessed. >> Rita get possessed the name of the
01:02:52
episode. >> Make it happen, please. >> So after more than six months of flying objects and foulmouth ghosts, uh most
01:02:58
reporters and readers had kind of lost interest in the Enfield story. Um, and those who were covering it were doing so
01:03:05
with like a little bit of a sarcastic tone, which is like a little sad. >> Yeah.
01:03:09
>> By the late winter 1978, the first signs of a dramatic shift in public opinion
01:03:14
came when an article appeared in the Daily Mirror claiming that one of the girls involved had admitted to the whole
01:03:20
thing being a hoax. >> Oh, it said, >> "How'd they make it rain marbles?" >> Well, I think there are some aspects
01:03:26
that they can't explain, but maybe they were admitting to doing things. some things
01:03:29
>> in the Daily Mirror praised for its handling of the story um by uh Gross and Playfair. The story of a confession was
01:03:36
beginning to emerge. This is a quote. One of the young girls involved had admitted it was a hoax. Faithfully, the
01:03:42
Mirror recorded that the girl had retracted her admission the following day, but this seemed to add to the
01:03:47
confusion, which tends to swamp serious attempts to investigate psychic phenomenon. That was in the Cambridge uh
01:03:54
evening news. Now, by that point, the audio and video recordings of the communication between the investigators
01:04:00
and this entity had been shown to reporters, and what they saw strained, you know, the credibility for even those
01:04:08
most desperate to believe in it. >> I was desperate to believe in it. >> I am too. And one reporter who viewed
01:04:14
the tape described it as quote, "A videotape of a cheeky young girl struggling to keep her lips closed and
01:04:20
speak at the same time." >> Cheeky. There you go. >> It's there. Was there anyone present at
01:04:25
the conference that where the tapes were shown who would seriously believe that the grunts coming from the girl's body
01:04:30
were anything other than an elaborate game? After several prominent, respectable
01:04:36
investigators had publicly declared the case a hoax likely the girl's confession, although it was brief, was
01:04:43
the last straw for the public who had already started to suspect it was a fraud. In his book, The This House is
01:04:49
Haunted, Playfair did his absolute best to defend his and Gross's belief that the girl story was genuine. But although
01:04:55
it was a successful supernatural story, it didn't really convince people of the authenticity of the whole thing.
01:05:00
>> Yeah. >> Even the investigator's most compelling evidence, a photograph of Janet
01:05:05
supposedly being levitated and tossed in the air by an unseen entity. It's like a
01:05:10
famous photo from this. It was criticized by several investigators for clearly showing what skeptical
01:05:16
investigator Melvin Harris described as levitation gymnastics. >> What is levitation?
01:05:22
>> Harris notes, "It's worth remembering that Janet was a school sports champion." And the image clearly shows
01:05:27
the girl in a jumping position. Her legs are bent >> like to propel herself. Yeah.
01:05:33
>> Rather than like laying down and being levitated, you know? >> Yeah. >> She looks like she's jumping.
01:05:38
>> Okay. >> And I'm not here to say she is or isn't. I'm just saying that's what it looks
01:05:41
like. I'm looking at it right now. Hang on. >> Yeah. >> Oh, she's 100% jumping. >> She's jumping. I mean, I don't know. Um,
01:05:48
in the years since, the Hodgegsons may have stepped out of the public eye, but the story of the Enfield poltergeist has
01:05:54
remained, you know, a pretty fascinating source, like you know, believers, skeptics, everyone in between. Uh, in
01:06:01
1992, the case was the inspiration for the controversial BBC television mockumentary Ghost Watch,
01:06:08
>> in which a television news crew spends a night in a supposedly haunted house with
01:06:12
devastating consequences. >> Several decades after that, the story was brought back again. First for an
01:06:18
entry in the Conjuring franchise, despite the Warren only having like the most tertiary involvement in this. I was
01:06:25
going to >> say you guys were there for like 3.2 seconds. Then again, for an ITV
01:06:28
miniseries titled The Enfield Haunting, the legacy of this whole thing speaks a lot to a very compelling narrative in an
01:06:37
unresolved case because although people believe it's a hoax, they haven't been able to prove it either way. Yeah.
01:06:43
>> We can't prove that it's real. We can't prove that it's a hoax, >> right? >> Um and nobody really can explain what
01:06:49
happened here or why it would have happened here. >> Right. For hardcore skeptic Joe Nickel,
01:06:53
the explanation is as simple as the principle of AAM's razor. They are best explained as ch children's pranks.
01:07:01
>> Yeah. >> Um and basically they were children's pranks who are vigor vigorously defended
01:07:06
by two men who couldn't fathom the possibility that they were wrong in their assessment. And that's a quote by
01:07:11
Nickel. >> Others though are less critical and dismissive of you know in the judgment
01:07:16
of the case. Um Deborah Hyde wrote in 2015, "People frequently see what they expect to see." So she came to a much
01:07:24
more sympathetic conclusion. She wrote, "We don't have the processing bandwidth to pay attention to everything all the
01:07:29
time and often don't notice when things have been placed or have disappeared." Personally, I would find it plausible if
01:07:35
somebody suggested that two bright girls feeling abandoned by their father and given the focused attention of two kind
01:07:41
men, attention that would in all probability evaporate if the strange phenomena did could have been motivated
01:07:47
to manifest a poltergeist. >> That's actually so sad. >> Very sad. >> That's probably one of the saddest
01:07:52
things I've ever heard. >> And that like breaks my heart. >> Yeah. >> Still, there are those who like Playfair
01:07:56
and Gross and the friends of the Hodgson family who all saw it happen. They all remain steadfast in their belief that
01:08:03
the entire story of the poltergeist knocking on the walls, the arguments with the spirit, the, you know, talking
01:08:09
to Joe, the previous occupant of the residence, things moving, things throwing like flying through the air.
01:08:15
They were all genuine, all of them. Now, more than four decades later, neither side is any closer to proving either
01:08:23
that it was real or that it was a hoax than they were on the day that Maurice Gross arrived in the summer of 1977.
01:08:30
>> What a bummer. >> So, right now, >> it is what it is. That's the story and no one can prove [ __ ] I feel like it to
01:08:39
me there are some things that I'm like, okay, like obviously the kids were doing
01:08:43
that, but there were things like especially and it's interesting. There were things especially in the beginning.
01:08:48
Yeah. >> That sounded >> like it could be something. >> Yeah. Exactly. Inexplicable. So
01:08:54
>> I think maybe it started off as something and then >> that's how I kind of perhaps veered off.
01:08:58
>> I feel like maybe something was a miss here, but maybe it wasn't going to get
01:09:01
as bad as it got. >> Yeah. >> And then the kids maybe ramped it up. >> Yeah. >> Like like made it to not wanting people
01:09:09
to leave, which is really sad. And like >> you know >> surprised I ever faked a >> It's an interesting story. I'm honestly
01:09:16
surprised you never faked a polterge. If I could go back in time, I would. >> Yeah. But
01:09:20
>> actually, I used to pretend to be a ghost named Glenn to scare my little sister.
01:09:22
>> You did. >> You did. You did do that. And you had Luke Skywalker. >> Yeah. >> And the lady who didn't have a body. She
01:09:30
was just made of bones. That was weird. >> That was the realest [ __ ] thing I've
01:09:35
ever experienced. >> To this day, I'm not I'm not going to go back to that place. If you could project
01:09:40
the image of her out of your body so I could see what you see, I would pay endless amounts of money.
01:09:46
>> It scares me to this day. Do you know that one time my mom was like so fed up
01:09:51
with it and like like could not calm me. I was literally like inconsolable she called my dad and my dad had to come
01:09:59
over in the night to like try to calm me. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And like my mom and dad do not like each
01:10:05
other at all. >> So that wasn't amicable. Yeah, it's not an amicable divorce. So, that was
01:10:11
>> pretty serious. >> Yeah, like big serious. >> Damn. >> Yeah, >> that's crazy.
01:10:16
>> Yeah, it was wild >> [ __ ] >> So, yeah, sometimes ghost things are real and unexplainable. I don't know why
01:10:22
that lady showed up to me. >> I don't either. >> She also probably could have been a
01:10:24
nightmare. And >> I don't know what she is. >> I was dealing with a lot. So, >> you were, but she was real.
01:10:29
>> Yeah, I think she was. >> Damn. And we don't know if the unfilled poltergeist is. So,
01:10:34
>> you just never know. There's There's weird things in life. We're going to experience them tonight. And I can't
01:10:38
[ __ ] wait. Hell yeah. >> But we can't talk to you about that for a long while. So you better keep
01:10:43
listening. And we hope you keep it weird. >> But not so weird that you don't continue
01:10:51
[ __ ] listening to the podcast. You [ __ ] [ __ ] [Music] [Music] [Music]