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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this right here that you're listening to is morbid it sure is
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[Music] yay it sure is it remains to be so whoa that was poetry I am poetry you are
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poetry no you know you are you prose I'm Pros that's beautiful yeah I love the word prose I do too Pros was a sponsor
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of ours one time it's been yeah it's been a sponsor yeah I like pros this isn't this is not an
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advice I was gonna say the word prose has no meaning anymore but it's fun while it lasted Pros Pros guys it's only
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Tuesday and we're losing our GD Minds yeah we have a week like that it's been quite quite a week
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it's just you know that we're it's 2023 man yeah I'm like I was like oh it's gonna be such a great year because I'm
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getting married that year that's probably the only good thing that will take place but you know what we're
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having a positive attitude because we have positive candles and lots of statues yeah Mikey really like positive
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vibe to this place up the joy candle is wild and over there yeah we have like a positive energy candle and she is lit
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right now and she's also lit like she's like she's we lit her and then she got she lit herself like she is really going
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off right now which makes me think that she's like hey [ __ ] she would stop talking so negatively I am positive
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energy hear me roar I can feel it engulfing this Roman Flames yeah and I have some intention flowers sitting next
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to me yeah I have a whole shelf that Mikey put together for me so it's positive vibes only okay positive Vibes
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only even when there's tons of [ __ ] happening around us that is not great so I was gonna like we're here making an
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acronym of everything you said but then you really just kept going and I lost the letters
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but I was like PV oh oh great she's doing more pvo w t b did I say shitty or bad okay of course
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he's a shitty h a u H that's what I'm trying to tell you know that's what everybody's motto should be
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say it again yep there's your motto that's your affirmation for today but positive vibes
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only here and you guys rule I was talking to a listener today you were yes I was because uh her name is Danny and
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she's awesome I really like her is she a phantom she's a fan too there you go I don't know I'll ask but the reason that
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I was chatting briefly with her was I think in one of the recent episodes we were talking about how
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um oh we were talking about it with jvn we were talking about how we put butter on Pop-Tarts oh hell yeah and I was like
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is that gross everybody but no she was like I do that too and then she was like also don't judge me but I put butter
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with my peanut butter too and so do you and she said I put butter on Saltines and I was like
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[ __ ] are we the same person because I was like wait a second see that's spooky that is because that is that [ __ ]
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also that spooky is a great podcast go listen to Hey but that [ __ ] is spooky I
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thought that's stuff that whenever I do it everyone around me is like that's really gross and like you should check
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yourself before you wreck yourself and so yeah to hear somebody sit there and just out with it say like I also do
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these two very Niche things do you think that putting butter on before peanut butter is Niche I feel like it is
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because everyone I've ever mentioned it to is like that's really gross I must have gotten it you did because I think I
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got it from Dad and then I probably passed it to you because I was like try this it's [ __ ] good because John is
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horrified by it every time I do it he's like you are something else no everybody
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should give it a shot where I do draw the line though is butter on salt have you tried it though no have you tried it
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you haven't tried it I'm gonna have you try it and you're gonna go I probably will I'm pretty good I love a
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good dipping because you're not like smearing butter on it it's just like a light little a dabble do ya on it and
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you just take it just with the salt I don't know what it just like gives it a little little sweet little salty it's
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just enough not too much I might have made this confession before about Saltines on this podcast but if I
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haven't get ready for a [ __ ] wild one of those wild people um not anymore no um am I like no but when I was little
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this is like a gross [ __ ] nasty thing that I did when I was little I didn't require supervision well I did require
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I used to dip my Saltines into water and eat them and sometimes this is so gross
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we used to live with this lady named Judy me and my mom and she was Judy was the best but like she ran a daycare so
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there was a lot of us to keep track of so you know maybe I wasn't always getting the eyes on me I used to dip my
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Saltines into the pool and eat Mikey's head Just Whipped over here I would like to tell you that I was like
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seven how old were you no no I would like to I thought you were saying that I'd like to
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say that I like confessed that I but I was actually 17. it was actually last week I'm just kidding I'm actually about
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to do it now no but I I'm actually gonna go find the nearest pool in a pack of salt teams and have myself a good time
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have myself a day put myself in Africa isn't that so foul like that's foul and it wasn't even a saltwater pool because
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like yeah no that's one of those things that like I'm always loved to mine like have you tried it but you know what I'm
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not trying to I feel like that's one of those things that I can say it's not not
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great yeah I also wrote my name on the wall at Judy's house because I had recently seen Madeline do that in her
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movie but fun fact you get in trouble for writing on Judy's walls in case you were thinking of writing on Judy's walls
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you got in trouble you will get in trouble and gymnastics will get taken away from you oh I know
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still take after school activities away never it's important yeah I don't know that's just me I'm not telling you how
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to parent whatever so what do these [ __ ] do next so I think we should yeah so but
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you know what shout out to Danny for being the same person that I am like what's up Soul Sister
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teens in the pool because we could also be friends she's like girl she's like no the line
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has been drawn she said I don't identify with you but yeah that was funny so that was a
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nice like little like it's a nice moment to like connect first I gotta be like girl yeah uh but now we're gonna get
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into some terrible [ __ ] we're gonna get into part two of Birkin hair um these [ __ ] suck I know and that's
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the thing whenever you say like oh we're gonna talk about Burke and hair it sounds like a fun story it sounds
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Whimsical it sounds like a fairy tale like it does sound like a fairy tale I don't know why I said it that way
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it sounds so fast it does sound Whimsical I agree with you um but when we last left them they
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murdered a grandma and her grandson separately right yep yeah yeah and all four seem to have involvement yeah and
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then Dr Knox there was like Oh weird that you brought in an old lady and her grandson at the same time they don't
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look as good so I'm gonna give you a little less money for it and it's like my guy
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my dude like I'm I'm on the record right now yeah he knew oh he you know you're not in all these body body and not
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questioning it they just rolled in there with a woman and her grandson and you're telling me that you didn't
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question that these two people died side by side right and they had already been
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sus as [ __ ] before yeah because of the last woman before there yeah they knew she was known in town they were the last
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people seen with her yada yada do like so [ __ ] this yeah it's not great but you
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know the last one that they had before we stopped part one was Effie who they believed her name was Effie right and in
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their confessions they were like I think she went by Effie oh that's nice also I
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think that's the cutest name I didn't have a chance to say it is very adorable yeah it's that's a Whimsical name oh
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totally Effie I follow this girl sorry on Tick Tock that um she will categorize names and she does them into like
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Whimsical names like old-fashioned names it's fun I'm gonna find her name later and tell you yeah I want to know what my
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name would be categorized into well so she does like a baby name so I've actually never seen your name on there
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oh she was like um like my name was a baby name at one point no way yeah it was yeah I never seen you on there
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you're not Whimsical you're not old-fashioned at one point it was a baby name one day because I was a baby at one
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point but you were a cute little baby I wasn't there to like witness it in person because like photographic of it
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maybe I was in a different life one of your souls probably was probably I think that anyway but either way poor Effie
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she was a hawker she was actually known around town she was known to Burke of course she was so she and and when I
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last told you guys she had gone door to door kind of selling and I think she was
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gonna sell him bits of leather for his cobbling work okay and he enticed her into a barn with alcohol in the promise
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of rest once she had fallen asleep he said he laid a cloth over her and suffocated her as they did the others oh
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then they just brought her to knox's dissection room and got 10 Shillings for the body wow yep so as the summer went
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on the stress of maintaining this whole thing was beginning to wear a little bit
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on Birkin hair not in the sense of them having remorse or guilt but just in the sense of stress of doing it yeah and
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trying to maintain the whole thing and it was also you know it was wearing on their significant others as well so
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Laird like we talked about had been at least like on like outside Lee involved in the
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Murder She was definitely there yeah and participating her boarding house right yeah and she was participating in some
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way luring people in you know help plying them with alcohol yeah Helen McDougall
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like we said she had not actively involved herself in any of the killings up to this point except the grandson the
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grandson she didn't actively involve herself in his killing she was only there to calm him down when he couldn't
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find his grandma oh okay so if we're talking like specifically yeah was she involved in a killing we have no
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evidence of that right now okay that is that you're about to tell me something that to me is accomplish it right there
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like you were calming down this kid yeah when did you know what was happening to
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his grandma or did you not I mean I feel like this is a small [ __ ] boarding house that's what I think but you know I
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don't know but she so she hadn't actively involved herself in any of the killings like I said and she's with
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Burke just to lay that out first yes so hair actually ended up looking at that as a liability because she hadn't
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actively involved herself in any of the crimes but she was around and knew what was going on it seems like yeah which
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it's one of those things where it's like if you're gonna be around you better make one of the stab wounds so that we
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can all point to you and say you did it too yeah otherwise you can just go I didn't do anything but here's all the
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information and you don't have to be implicated at all that's how he was looking at it exactly he was like the
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fact that the three of us have been actively involved in these and she isn't but is around that's a problem yeah so
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in fact at one point hair had gone so far as to suggest that Burke kills a woman
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um in order to protect themselves the [ __ ] yeah I think you should um off your
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wife because she hasn't murdered with us yet he even came up with a plan how to do it he wanted Burke to take her into
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the country for a few weeks then right hair and inform him of mcdougall's death and of course in reality the murder
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would have been committed in the back room of The Boarding House and with mcdougall's corpse being just
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another one of the bodies that they gave to Dr Knox it's hates wild my wife died
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here she is isn't that so wild so crazy that like I've been getting all these bodies for you and now my wife died so
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when they and he was trying to have him set up an alibi yeah like he was trying to set this whole thing up he'd really
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thought about this if I was Burke right which one is with McDougall yeah if I was Burke I'd be
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worried that hair was gonna kill my lady yeah well that's I mean I guess fortunately for Helen McDougall
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Burke may have been an opportunistic monster yeah like an actual piece of [ __ ] but I guess his one line was that
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he wouldn't readily murder the woman that he claimed to love I suppose so they did not go forward with that
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everyone's got a line yeah but I'm not gonna give him anything but I'm not giving him anything no at least he
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didn't do that I guess yeah um so if air I think this kind of shows like the eagerness with which hair wanted to
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dispatch Helen McDougall that's kind of evidence of the growing tension not only
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between the whole group but between Burke and Hare specifically so then the next murder really didn't do anything to
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relieve Burke's suspicions of hair like this made things worse so in early summer Burke estimated it estimated it
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like late June which was around the anniversary anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn which I just thought was
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interesting the name Panic burn I like that uh Burke and McDougall had left Edinburgh for a pre a brief period of
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time time just to visit friends in Falkirk okay during this time hair and Laird were having a lot of financial
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difficulties and had ended up pawning everything they owned that was of value oh everything yeah anything that was of
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value they were pawning yet when Burke and McDougall returned a short time later suddenly hair and Laird appeared
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to no longer have any financial troubles interesting so when Burke asked hair if
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he'd been quote unquote doing any business you know what that means do we I love that he's like doing any business
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like these two are [ __ ] business partners are you kidding me doing business when I wasn't here wow so he
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asked him were you doing any business while I was away with Helen hair denied it said no however in discussion with Dr
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Knox Burke learned that during their absence Hare had quote fell in with a drunk woman in the street in the
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Westport and enticed her back to The Boarding House killed her and sold the body to Knox and kept the money for
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himself and then lied about it wow which I'm like wow you guys are [ __ ] bag monsters and now you're even being
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ship bag monsters to each other yeah I mean it was only a matter of time it was like you're not what you think you have
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a friend yeah like you're like sociopath that sort of thing like neither one of you gives a [ __ ] about anybody right so
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for some reason Burke and hair started getting pretty reckless as the summer was drawing to an end I'm not sure why
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they just started getting very Reckless the heat it's the heat you know um one night the two spotted a policeman
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by the name of Andrew Williamson and he was dragging a very obviously drunk woman to the Westport watch house so
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Burke saw this and called out let that woman go go on to her lodgings and the Police Officer Williamson said he didn't
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know where the woman lived that's why he was taking her to the watch house to keep her from spending the night on the
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street yeah so he's like I'm a good person like I'm actually trying to do a good thing here but right cool so after
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like a brief conversation Burke was actually able to convince the officer to release her to him
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she was brought back to the boarding house and she was murdered and sold to Knox for ten shillings if you don't tell
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me that this is how they got caught I am leaving the room according to Burke he quote had a good character with police
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which is why he was able to convince that police officer to release the very obviously drunk woman to him that night
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but this Brazen act clearly suggests a very misplaced confidence that don't worry in a few months at least will
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result in their capture but I'm telling you right now this didn't do it I have to he had a police officer hand a
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woman to him like who he murdered that night and brought back to Dr Knox and was paid for it that is because they did
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not get caught and also the fact that it took months for them to get like if and
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it's sad because again it's they are taking advantage of who they believe to be quote unquote less dead yeah and
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they're just proving that stigma you know by like you'd literally take your victim from a police officer and the
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police don't even realize that this woman is who she is and that she got killed exactly and that's so [ __ ] and
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that this police officer doesn't care like just handed her over and that was it I don't need to know what happened to
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her after that it's so sad it's so sad and it really is such a misplaced confidence though because he's out here
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being like Oh yeah like I look at what I did right I convinced a police officer to give her to me that as as horrible as
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the situation is that is going to be the thing that takes them down is them thinking that this is who they are now
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there are able to have police officers just hand them victims they're Above the Law so that is going to be an issue for
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them later but it was too little too late whenever you get whenever I feel like a murderer starts to get that kind
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of confidence yep it goes it's like a tail space it's hubris yeah you can't say anything but she can say
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tailspin yeah hell yeah uh and so in the late summer Burke and McDougall hell and
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his wife moved to from Tanner's close the boarding house to a small cottage not far from The Boarding House okay
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there they shared this they shared this little cottage with a couple called the brogans I like that name attitude it's
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like very I don't know why it's like cozy uh yeah just I'm just here with the brogans I would call them the brogies
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the brogies I would just call them the brogues with my bro geese I'm just here with my brogans so some have suggested
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that the move was Burke's attempt to keep McDougall safe because of what you were saying after hair and Laird had
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suggested that they um murder her to keep her quiet he might have felt like he had to put a little distance between
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hair and his wife which I'm like you probably should stop murdering people with that guy just seriously I don't
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know well also I bet it was that and then I bet what added on to it was the fact that he committed a murder without
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him yeah but it was at this house that Burke and hair met their next victim no a
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washer woman by the name of Mrs hostler so one afternoon the woman had just finished her washing for the day and
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Burke and Hare convinced her to return the following day to have a few drinks with them they were very Charming they
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were able to convince a lot of people to do this sounds like it and she did so the next day after she'd become drunk
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they convinced her to lie down in an adjacent room where they killed her by Suffocation so this is what they did
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they get their people drunk and then they do it and they're people who they know are desperate they know
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our own hard times they know are going to say yes to a lot of drinks just to numb whatever is happening in their
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lives it is and I feel like it's also so important to say like how long it actually takes to suffocate someone oh
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yeah like they weren't this wasn't like a quote-unquote easy way to get away with it or like an easy way to do it
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like these people are [ __ ] monsters you have to stand there for like what is it isn't it like seven minutes it's very
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like for strangling it's it's definitely and for Suffocation too it's probably similar it's brutal yeah and it's
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aggressive it's violent it's aggressive like nobody's laying there motionless they're laying there fighting for their
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lives trying to breathe exactly it's awful so [ __ ] and like for that for you to stand over somebody for a matter
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of minutes and do that like you are you gotta owned shut down like there's nothing nothing there it's just a cold
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empty box in there it's so crazy well then they just loaded her body into a box they stored that box in the coal
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house until later that afternoon and then they transported to Dr Knox and she got she um they got eight Shillings for
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her body oh okay not a full 10. so like all over the place yeah he's just he's just making random assessments right of
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price here so not I thought of that same thing make an assessment not long after
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the murder of Hustler Burke and or excuse me not I don't know why I just said that all in one sentence don't you
00:21:18
hate when you go to read a sentence that you wrote and you're like how do I speak
00:21:21
how did I how do I read that out loud well sometimes when you type something it sounds different in your head than
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the way you say it out loud what does it say or I forget a punctuation mark and then my brain just runs everything
00:21:31
together monster I like over punctuate everything see that's what happened here and then
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my brain's like no comma just keep going who gives a [ __ ] about it but what I meant was not long after the murder of
00:21:43
hosler Burke and McDougall welcomed into their home and McDougall same last name yes it's a cousin of
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Helen's [ __ ] um it was actually a cousin of Helen's previous husband so like Texas yeah
00:21:58
that's a cousin though Drew's cousins are my cousins I love them one afternoon while the brogans the other couple that
00:22:04
they were living with were out of the house Burke and Hare murdered Anna McDougall they murdered his wife's
00:22:13
cousin yep what and it was with hair doing most of the work of course Burke was not the one who did most of the work
00:22:20
so clearly hair is trying to like put some some kind of message out there yeah like he's getting closer to her
00:22:28
like oh God and it's like Burke is allowing it that made my stomach actually yeah because she's like I'm
00:22:34
killing your family members now my God he is they're both [ __ ] but like that's another level yeah
00:22:40
it's I'm I'm just I can't and because of this whole like oh um it's a relative thing Burke said that he did not like to
00:22:50
begin first on her because she was a relative oh totally so don't worry about that was the wife like hey what happened
00:22:57
to my [ __ ] cousin yeah she was like what's going on here but they loaded her body into a trunk and they intended to
00:23:04
take her body to Knox but before they had the chance the brogans came home and knowing that no one in the house
00:23:12
owned a trunk they um started asking several questions as to the origin of this trunk that was now sitting in their
00:23:21
house I'm going to admit something to you I thought they put her in the trunk of a car because I forgot that we were
00:23:27
like way back we were way back I was like nobody owned a train a steamer trunk exactly got you got you
00:23:34
when it became clear the couple was not going to stop asking these questions broken hair Hayward this [ __ ] trunk
00:23:42
come from and what's in it like they were literally like hey where did this trunk come from they're like don't worry
00:23:46
about it and then like they're also like don't open it they like walk in the other room and put their coats up and
00:23:50
they're like but about that trunk like do you have any information like no we don't and
00:23:55
then like okay cool can we open it like can we like open the trunk and maybe just see what's inside no we can't well
00:24:00
maybe there's like a name inside do you guys want dinner yeah we would love dinner do you want to like should we ask
00:24:05
the trunk if it wants to be part of dinner like what they just aren't working to let the trunk go I don't
00:24:09
blame them I'm not gonna let a random appearing trunk in my home go I'm not and Burke and hair eventually except for
00:24:17
the record sorry uh Burke and hair eventually sat down with the brogans excuse Mr Brogan and explained the
00:24:25
entire situation to him they said hey it's just like times are tough and we like to make extra money by murder and
00:24:32
what do you think and then they said hey do you want to be in on this and get some of the money
00:24:40
if you don't say anything and he was like okay and he meant it yep and he meant it he
00:24:47
said okay I thought you were gonna say he meant it and then he um motioned for the police he said I know you can't call
00:24:54
them back then he said yeah that's fine with me wow how does horseshit find horseshit that then finds some more
00:25:01
horseshit what's crazy too is that with each murder committed in this particular
00:25:06
period they're just growing increasingly Reckless first of all and they're also pulling apart from each other
00:25:14
drastically yeah they're doing things on their own they're not listening they're
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killing each other's relatives at this point like shit's going dead now they're inviting other people into this whole
00:25:23
scheme like [ __ ] the more people you have in this scheme the more [ __ ] is going to fall it's not the merrier no it
00:25:30
is not the merrier they're also splitting that profit in way more pieces which is way less advantageous to them
00:25:38
with they're murdering people yeah and now you're splitting the profits like now they're splitting it four ways but
00:25:44
are they not because Laird's this one didn't take place in Laird's sporting home I think because she is part of it
00:25:52
she gets that one shilling just for her silence oh that's how he's able to hold all these people they are able to hold
00:26:01
all these people and that's why McDougall is such a liability to that because she's not getting anything for
00:26:07
it she's not getting anything for her silence and they're not just gonna pay her unless she has something to do with
00:26:12
it because you need her hand to have blood on it so you can go she did it too yup that way she's not going to be eager
00:26:18
to go to the authorities because then she has to admit that she's been part of it okay so they're not getting that from
00:26:24
her this is nutso so that brings us to the beginning of the end oh so for obvious reasons and with very few
00:26:33
exceptions Burke and Hare killed mainly elderly and incapacitated and transient like down on their luck women yeah that
00:26:44
seems to be there oh they they go they go away from it that well although they were almost always opportunists like
00:26:51
they were always just they weren't like following people and like trolling for days you know what I mean their
00:26:56
preferred victim type likely had something to do with the fact that women were just much easier to overpower in
00:27:03
their mind um and that but what's Wild is like at least one of them and probably more of
00:27:10
them there was evidence that they tried to fight back yeah resist and this became very evident in the in this whole
00:27:17
thing that like they were definitely doing this because they could overpower their victims yeah it became evident
00:27:23
that they thought this was the case and that it wasn't in October uh when they murdered James Wilson who was otherwise
00:27:29
known as Daft Jamie what is like daft mean again so I'll explain to you according to George
00:27:38
McGregor Wilson he was described as quote a lad who while deficient in intellect was kind at heart don't you
00:27:46
dare he was a universal favorite stop uh among the towns people he was now Jamie's had a very kind nature he was
00:27:57
not confrontational he was not an aggressive man it the people loved him he was like very beloved but he also was
00:28:05
kind of like a frequent Target of bullies [ __ ] that they would just like taunt him and [ __ ] and in his early 20s
00:28:13
by the time of this happening Jamie's father had died many years earlier and her and his mother was a hawker who was
00:28:21
often traveling selling Goods so he spent a lot of his time just wandering the streets in Edinburgh if Jamie
00:28:26
doesn't live I'm leaving so as a result of this he became a very familiar figure to people around town
00:28:32
yeah especially to the people who would just out of the kindness of their heart give him food and gifts because he was
00:28:39
just a nice kid oh and he's in his 20s at this point but I say kid but that's a kid that's kid yeah um and they kind of
00:28:45
like looked after him in a way because like they just knew he was like you know he needed it see there is some kind of
00:28:51
community here there it is I was looking for it there is now Jamie Wilson was definitely not only the
00:28:59
antithesis of a typical Birkin hair victim because he was not a drinker he was not a woman right he was not he was
00:29:07
pretty strong he's not an older person he's not older and he's well known to everybody in town very well known like
00:29:13
this is like front page of Time Magazine kind of well known like even more so than the very more so yeah so this is
00:29:20
just like totally the antithesis of their typical victim he was also the stupidest choice for a victim
00:29:28
because like I said he didn't drink you're not going to ply him away with alcohol yeah so what the [ __ ] is your
00:29:33
move and then you're gonna have to overpower him while he's sober he can fight you he's he's not gonna be easy
00:29:38
Lord easily lured away and when he is suddenly gone everyone's gonna notice immediately yeah he's like everyone's
00:29:46
kid you're not gonna be able to bring him to Dr Knox and have it be like oh yeah it's just weird daf Jamie just
00:29:51
dropped in it's like No No One's Gonna believe that now it was actually Margaret Laird who'd chosen Jaime as a
00:29:58
victim because she discovered him alone in looking for his mother at a grass Market one day in early October [ __ ] you
00:30:06
Margaret [ __ ] that's what I do now according to Burke Jamie agreed to accompany her back to the boarding house
00:30:13
but he was very anxious the entire walk back to the house and kept asking questions oh my God you're ruining me
00:30:19
when they reached the house Laird left Jamie with hair while she went to find Burke whom she eventually found at a
00:30:26
local shop and the two of them went back to Tanner's close the boarding house back at the house Laird left the three
00:30:33
men alone which they offered Jamie some drinks and after after a little while and Jamie did
00:30:40
drink with them yeah he became a little tired and laid down at the bed and that's the point where hair laid next to
00:30:46
him a few minutes passed before hair threw himself on top of Jamie and attempted to cover his mouth and nose
00:30:52
the same thing Jamie however was neither drunk or incapacitated at this point so
00:30:59
he started struggling and resisting and the two men fell from the bed and continued to struggle on the floor
00:31:06
eventually though Burke was able to get a hold of Jaime's feet and legs which he
00:31:12
held tight as hair suffocated Jamie no so he like they almost lost this one and this was the stupidest thank goodness
00:31:22
they were so stupid but this is so tragic I'm like so they're all tragic but this one's just like yeah are you
00:31:30
[ __ ] kidding me like and like Margaret go [ __ ] yourself he's looking for his mom and that's when you
00:31:36
[ __ ] and he's clearly like yeah like intellectually a little immature yeah and it's like he's looking for his
00:31:44
mother and he's like in his early 20s like come on that's that is [ __ ] disgusting it's vile it's like I'm so
00:31:51
angry right now it's well and oh I had hope I know I feel I felt bad building you up like that but I was like I don't
00:31:58
know how you tell the story now in nearly every every case Birkin hair we're very careful to get rid of their
00:32:05
victims clothings and whatever possession the victim had on them at the time I found them naked essentially they
00:32:13
just bring the body to the doctor Knox um and in this case though their victim had a lot of belongings most of the time
00:32:20
their victim didn't have a lot of things on them because they didn't have a lot of things in the world was he walking
00:32:24
around with like things he had a lot of belongings and he had some things of value because he was he was you know
00:32:30
which they ended up just splitting between them they just stole all the things and eventually they gave his
00:32:36
clothing to Burke's brother who passed them on to his younger children and he knew yep
00:32:43
[ __ ] this yep so and this is the thing so his brother didn't know but like they
00:32:50
they knew that he was gonna be they knew that Constantine was going to give these
00:32:54
clothing this these clothes to his children yeah and they still allowed it to happen because they have actually no
00:33:00
souls yeah because of Constantine Burke and the children didn't recognize the clothing so they're just like okay they
00:33:07
did eventually end up uh trading them for like other items in town but still so putting Jamie's very recognizable
00:33:17
clothing and belongings out in the public because they were selling these Goods now too right that was a really
00:33:25
bad idea because it's not like you just like sold them to like some random person you literally gave them to people
00:33:32
in town that oh yeah are connected to you exactly and then you sold the belongings he had to people in town who
00:33:38
are like oh wait I know what this is and oh I got that from Burke oh I got that from hair or exactly so the more
00:33:46
significant problem was that the boy would almost certainly be recognized by Dr Knox right that was the biggest
00:33:52
problem like when you bring this kid in they're gonna know exactly who he is so indeed when it was brought to him he
00:34:00
wasn't home but when they arrived with the body his assistant didn't really look very quickly okay so he just was
00:34:08
like okay and he was like you know what can you return the next day and you know
00:34:11
Knox will be here and he'll pay you so the next day when they did did inspect the body several of knox's students were
00:34:18
like that's Jamie oh and they were like what the [ __ ] but Knox was like you know
00:34:23
what ready the body for a dissection so he 100 recognized this body just like but he was like just ready for it for
00:34:33
dissection what the actual [ __ ] and then he assured his students this ever so fresh male
00:34:40
subject could not possibly be anyone they knew what yeah like you really need to
00:34:48
dissect that bad you've had how many bodies have we had up to this point 15 yeah like I I think you've learned some
00:34:54
some stuff I think 14 at this point take a second yeah the [ __ ] and later Stu these students were interviewed by
00:35:01
police later obviously because they were very much like unwillingly involved in this exactly they all told investigators
00:35:08
they were pretty certain this was Jamie but they didn't want to swear on it because they were Knox had told them
00:35:14
that it wasn't well and then they're obvious they're being intimidated by somebody who has power so they're like
00:35:19
and can determine their future exactly so the final murder occurred on October 31st oh yeah did they do that like on
00:35:29
purpose I don't know this is when Burke met Mary Dougherty and it was in a reimer's grocery store that morning on
00:35:36
October 31st so like the grandmother the pair had brutally murdered earlier that
00:35:42
summer Dougherty had come from out of town in search of her son oh it was virtually unknown to anyone in Edinburgh
00:35:50
oh no so Burke struck up a conversation with this older woman telling her that he'd also come to Edinburgh he was from
00:35:56
Ireland and you know wow crazy my mom's maiden name is Dougherty so maybe we're related probably not so and what she
00:36:05
likely took as a friendly gesture Burke invited her back to the home for breakfast with he and his wife and she
00:36:13
was like great absolutely excited to make a friend exactly maybe they can help me find my son that kind of thing
00:36:19
so once they were in the house Helen McDougall tended to this new guest while Burke went off in search of hair okay
00:36:27
when he finally found hair they went back to Burke's house where they found Helen and the guests cleaning up after
00:36:32
breakfast well it would have been pretty easy for them to overpower and murder Mrs Dougherty because she was very frail
00:36:39
sure the real issue that they were facing was getting rid of the couple who had been staying with Burke and
00:36:46
McDougall for over a week they were there was another couple in the house and they must have seen her come in and
00:36:51
eat exactly so they were like [ __ ] so it's trying to think quickly here and Burke told this couple that he'd run
00:36:57
into an old family friend and he wondered if it would be you know terribly inconvenient for them to maybe
00:37:04
find another place to stay for a night or two just so they could have this Mrs Dougherty this family friend he even
00:37:11
went as far as suggesting they could stay with hair and Laird for a few days and the couple said sure uh-huh so that
00:37:18
evening things went about the usual way they had so the couples had dinner with Mary Dougherty Birkin hair and lairdon
00:37:26
they shared like multiple meals with this woman like really got to know her wow probably heard all about her life
00:37:32
all about her missing son they had dinner with her at Burke and mcdougall's home afterwards they sang They danced
00:37:40
they drank had a great time they literally like had a little party it's I just can't even
00:37:46
but they whatever the case was whether this was a planned roost that way or if they just really got into it that night
00:37:54
and were like enjoyed her company and still decided to go through it around 10 or 11 that night they um it became a
00:38:02
little loud and disruptive though because they were getting that's in like happy loud and disruptive not fighting
00:38:07
like yeah they were like dancing drinking singing and it was drawing attention of Neighbors
00:38:12
so people wanted to know what was going on so a woman from the house next door went to look through the window and she
00:38:19
saw what she later told police was Helen McDougall quote holding a bottle to the
00:38:24
mouth of Dougherty pouring the whiskey down her throat I always knew that I saw Helen McDougall for exactly who the [ __ ]
00:38:31
she was later that evening the disruption continued when Burke and Hare got into an actual argument a violent
00:38:38
one and they only stopped when Mary Dougherty fell from her stool and crashed onto the floor oh no man and she
00:38:45
couldn't get up so Laird and McDougall the two women used the opportunity to get out of the house which is when Burke
00:38:52
and Hare use the same method that they always use to suffocate Mrs Dougherty but they did do something a little
00:39:00
different with her which I don't know if this was them trying something different that they
00:39:06
were going to employ from here on out or if this was just I don't know okay but whichever man was doing the actual
00:39:13
suffocating at some point they had used their hand to strangle Mrs Dougherty around the throat and this left deep
00:39:21
bruises on her neck now she was dead they stripped her of her belongings and Burke sent for knox's
00:39:29
assistant and they explained that they just had another body to sell wow crazy it's I can't now with this also so they
00:39:36
make the call they're like hey you need to pick up this body tomorrow and then they just went about the party drinking
00:39:43
dancing until the early hours of the morning the dead body and that they just murdered brutally had just exactly yeah
00:39:49
wow so the following day November 1st Burke went to the boarding house to check on the um on The Lodgers that had
00:39:57
been sent to the house right and invite them back home for breakfast saying that you know their family friend
00:40:03
that old woman that they had met yesterday she had grown very impudent perhaps having taken too much liquor and
00:40:09
they found it next necessary to put her out that's how they put it put her out yeah so one of these Lodgers Mrs Gray
00:40:16
thought that Burke was behaving a little strangely and she said he was very nervously watching her and calling after
00:40:24
her when she began cleaning around a pile of straw near the corner of the room Burke kept up his weird like anxious
00:40:32
behavior for most of the morning and when several several of the occupants of the house needed to go out that
00:40:38
afternoon Burke actually instructed Mr Mr Brogan who knows about all this stuff now to sit in a chair by the bed in the
00:40:45
corner and not move until he returned okay Blair Witch what the [ __ ] so he did
00:40:51
he sat in the chair he didn't ask questions at first and then when Burke left the house he waited until he was
00:40:58
out of sight because remember this guy just joined this whole thing he did he just wanted money yeah he wasn't he's
00:41:05
not gonna save your ass so Berk's not a bad person so and Elsa he doesn't give a
00:41:10
[ __ ] like this is not a good guy this is somebody who just doesn't give a [ __ ]
00:41:13
exactly so when he tells him you got to sit by this corner of the bed near the straw in the corner he's like sure sure
00:41:18
so he sits there Burke leaves once he's out of his sight Brogan just leaves the house like he didn't he was like I'm not
00:41:25
doing that yeah so he left the house and then Mrs Gray the lodger who thought that he was acting very strange she's
00:41:32
now alone in the house and she takes this opportunity to investigate yes whatever it was by the bed that Burke
00:41:39
was definitely trying to hide and was definitely trying to have like guarded by Mr Brogan so she starts poking around
00:41:47
the straw Pile in the bed next to the bed excuse me and she found the nude body of Mary Dougherty and imagine all
00:41:57
around her mouth and nose why did she have blood around her mouth because she had been violently strangled
00:42:03
and probably I'm assuming should they might have like hit her or something oh my God something bad happened there and
00:42:09
she also had fallen from her stool right I don't know if she had any like traumatic fall there
00:42:14
so she literally finds this naked old woman who was clearly murdered in a pile of straw in the corner of their bedroom
00:42:23
wow so she knows why she was sent out the night before so she immediately tells her husband she's like we gotta
00:42:29
get the [ __ ] out of here and the two of them start Gathering up all their belongings and they're like we're
00:42:34
getting the [ __ ] out of here but then so Mrs Gray is packing and Mr Gray started
00:42:39
carrying things downstairs and as this is happening he ran into Helen McDougall I knew one of those [ __ ] was lurking
00:42:45
and when he ran into Helen McDougall he demanded that she explained what the [ __ ] was going on like he was like you
00:42:51
tell me why the [ __ ] there's a body in that bedroom yeah like you tell me and at first she tried to just like dismiss
00:42:58
the question yeah because she's a little butt head but she kept but he kept pushing he was like no you can't you
00:43:03
literally can't dismiss a body in your bedroom like you need to explain the naked old woman's body in your bedroom
00:43:11
tell me what that's about the [ __ ] and so she finally broke down and said I suppose you know very well what it is
00:43:17
uh I don't though and then she begged Mr Gray not to say anything and then offered him several Shillings in
00:43:25
exchange for silence and then he then Helen told Mr Gray that Dougherty had died that night from an
00:43:31
overdose of drink yeah right [ __ ] why is her mouth all bloody but she he did not believe her of course he was like No
00:43:38
And then she decided to switch her tactics you remember innocent McDougall over here remember everybody I don't
00:43:45
remember because he always had her number poor innocent Helen she had nothing to do with this [ __ ] Helen and
00:43:51
she decided to change her tactics when Mr Gray wasn't gonna believe the she overdosed on drinks so we stripped her
00:43:57
naked and tied her in a pile of straw yeah so she was like okay and she started convincing trying to convince
00:44:03
him to join in on the scheme he's like yeah I have a conscience though that's the only problem Helen's also an actual
00:44:10
piece of [ __ ] all four of these [ __ ] are pieces of she knew it I knew she had
00:44:15
there was too much going on for her not to know about and the fact that she went
00:44:19
along with it and didn't get paid is like wild yeah it true that has even more yeah truly like I'm not saying like
00:44:25
well sure they were getting paid so that's why they did it but no you weren't even in on this yeah you weren't
00:44:29
even like what the hell was going on in here you were still cool with it yep and
00:44:33
so she couldn't convince anything to she couldn't convince them to join the scheme she wasn't getting a promise of
00:44:38
Silence from them so she followed them into town oh [ __ ] and they ran into Laird in town oh I'm so nervous somehow
00:44:46
the Grays the Grays agreed to join Laird and McDougall at a nearby public house for like a drink and the women continued
00:44:54
to try to convince them to stay quiet they bought them rounds of drinks they used every argument they could to try to
00:45:00
convince them that this was something that was fine ethically y'all don't drink a drink that they buy you what's
00:45:07
good is they were very unpersuasive the Grays got a bunch of free drinks out of the deal there you go and they left the
00:45:14
bar that afternoon and went straight to the police love that I love that they're
00:45:18
like you know what yeah first yeah uh but when they went to the police they were made to wait several
00:45:24
hours for someone to even listen to their story oh good yeah that checks so when Mr Gray was finally able to tell
00:45:31
his stories to a police Sergeant the officer said that gray was simply a disgruntled tenant looking to cause
00:45:37
problems for his landlords I'd be like do you want to like maybe go talk to anyone about this though so that's what
00:45:43
he was like do you wanna um do you want to come back to the house and like check and see and maybe come
00:45:49
see this corpse in the corner of her room do you want to do that so they were like yeah totally so they he went with
00:45:54
Mr Gray to the home of Burke and McDougall and Burke confirmed the Sergeant's Theory saying that the Grays
00:46:01
were former tenants and that he'd had to turn them out for bad conduct oh please
00:46:05
so Burke was like yeah you're right like they're just they just suck they're just
00:46:08
shitty tenants but then the officer did a little search of the home and there he
00:46:13
found spatters of Blood on the bed sheets yup and the floor and like and this was all where she had
00:46:20
been killed before being brought to Knox yeah and it all matched up with what gray had told the police right it was
00:46:27
the same room it was this the spatters made sense for what had happened so when asked Burke and McDougall gave very
00:46:35
inconsistent stories about who the woman was when she left and this alone was enough for the police to be like you two
00:46:43
need to come in and we're going to question yesterday because they were like you can't agree who she was or when
00:46:48
she even left she's in your house like she's literally in your [ __ ] house so Burke and McDougall were taken down to
00:46:55
the police station for questioning the next day officers went back to Burke's home to do a more thorough
00:47:01
search and they found more blood stains and they also found Mary Dougherty's blood-stained clothing
00:47:08
meanwhile additional officers they also brought a police surgeon Dr Black they all went to Dr knox's address where they
00:47:18
discovered Docker dockery's battery yeah Dougherty's body being readied for dissection oh my yeah so they had the
00:47:27
bloody clothing and the body now in their possession and so now more officers were sent to hair in Laird's
00:47:35
boarding house where they were informed where they informed Margaret Laird that Captain Stewart wished to see her
00:47:42
husband so as as they had done with the Grays Laird tried to just dismiss the whole
00:47:48
thing the whole evening events are being misunderstood here she overdosed we didn't do anything it was just drunken
00:47:55
revelry but she was very unsuccessful just as they were and both hair and Laird were
00:48:00
taken into custody as well and Burke and McDougall now were officially arrested after being questioned here and Laird
00:48:08
are just being brought in for questioning so throughout the fall of 1828 Burke and
00:48:13
Hare made tons of Reckless and very risky decisions in the beginning they were doing things pretty undercover they
00:48:22
got so [ __ ] Reckless and unraveled like it's really wild to why it's a it's a true downfall for them
00:48:29
but they were so [ __ ] Brazen and so weirdly confident that they could get away from this it is crazy how confident
00:48:36
they were that's the thing like Burke was even trying to explain away that why Dougherty was in his house
00:48:42
like why her body was in his house it just goes to show how [ __ ] like delusional they were or like like
00:48:49
confident it's like what like you really thought that was gonna make sense or that was really gonna work wait until
00:48:54
you hear the story he does you want to hear the because he told one story and now this is the other story he tells us
00:49:00
okay it's so his first formal explanation for why Dougherty's body was in his home according to Burke he and
00:49:07
McDougall had begun their day like any other day any other day and suddenly a man approaches him looking to have some
00:49:15
shoes mended he's a cobbler after all like I literally forgot that yeah Burke had never seen the man he didn't
00:49:20
remember his name he couldn't tell you anything about him but he agreed to help him out and he took his shoes and began
00:49:26
to work and while this stranger is while he's working on the stranger shoes this stranger just drags a trunk into
00:49:35
his house while he's working on his shoes this can't be and he's working he's he's just
00:49:42
working and he's like you I don't know why you have that crazy trunk in here but that's fine and Burke said it's so
00:49:47
weird I could hear the man removing the ropes that were used to secure the trunk
00:49:52
and then I found I I you know I heard this sound of a man like burying something under a pile of straw
00:50:00
I think it was like that's the sound that I heard no I must and I think that pile of straw was next to the bed yeah
00:50:05
it sounded like that I I've left and he said and then that man left then I discovered what that man had left in my
00:50:13
house and I tracked him down and I demanded that he come back and he removed this body and this guy said sure
00:50:20
I will but I can't come back until tomorrow morning to do it and he said okay my guy I guess okay my God I said
00:50:28
all right I guess I'll go back and just live with this naked dead body in a pile
00:50:31
of straw in the corner of my bedroom for tonight as one does and then you come back and you take this out and I didn't
00:50:37
know him at all but I just figured he was good on his word yeah you know he seemed like a trustworthy guy this
00:50:42
murderer he just seemed you know like this stranger with a literally approached me in town I don't remember
00:50:49
his name or his face I'm gonna tell you a damn thing about him he asked me to Cobble a [ __ ] shoe I said sure why
00:50:56
not he came back to my house with me he drags the trunk in my house I hear him burying a body I find said body
00:51:04
find him in town and say Hey you better come get that body out of my house and he says I'll do it tomorrow morning and
00:51:10
you say I don't I believe you I believe brother you sir I think you will come back I think you will come
00:51:18
back and get this body I'm shook it and he said this two investigators like they were not
00:51:25
gonna be like are you [ __ ] [ __ ] me are you [ __ ] my dick Burke are you really saying this story to me a
00:51:33
seasoned [ __ ] investigator and me I'm gonna go wow that what bad luck did they even what shitty luck
00:51:40
Burke has did they even give him an answer were they even did they were they just like you know what we have to go
00:51:45
now um you're going to jail bye oh yeah and then well because I'm I'm sure it was
00:51:51
one of those things where he went through that whole thing and they all just stared at him and you could hear
00:51:54
the blink blink yeah blink because then he was like yeah and you know it's crazy
00:51:58
I met that woman earlier in the day because because he couldn't this isn't absurd enough we have to we have to add
00:52:06
on to it he goes yeah she was begging for money and he said out of the kindness of my heart I invited her back
00:52:13
to my house for a meal and for some drinks and she returned to town after that after I had fed her after I had oh
00:52:20
so she was given her alcohol she left my house and she went back into town and I
00:52:25
said goodbye I hope you have a great night I hope that I fed you well I hope I hope I have done I I hope I've done
00:52:32
what I'm the teachings have told me to do to feed you to bring you win and I send you back out to town he goes I
00:52:38
never saw her again until I never saw her in my house until that man left her dead body in my house like what a
00:52:44
coincidence and he says a day or two later The Stranger sent two men who Burke had never met before to retrieve
00:52:52
the body no and he goes one of those men who I had never seen before came to my house and his name was William Hare
00:53:01
so now he is claiming that this stranger that dragged a trunk into his house that
00:53:05
contained a dead woman who he had met earlier that day brought to his house to feed and give drink because he was just
00:53:11
so kind sent back into [ __ ] town to be murdered by this stranger that dragged her in the trunk in his house
00:53:17
and hid her in a pile of straw in the corner of his bedroom he claims that he went back into town found this man said
00:53:24
you need to come get this body out of my house this man said I'll come back later
00:53:27
this man said I'm sending two of my guys to come get this lady and he said sure these guys show up at his house and he
00:53:34
says never saw him before just two strangers to me but one of them was William Hare like [ __ ] you've
00:53:41
been seen around town I could ask like Joe schmoe from down the street like hey you know Birkin hair and they'd be like
00:53:47
oh yeah those [ __ ] I'm shook like you're well known in town you not only are you friends your wives are friends
00:53:54
you have that you're you're a squad of four yeah yeah what yep and like like it's
00:54:04
unbelievable unhinged behavior and this is [ __ ] ridiculous it's incredible that he told this story thinking it was
00:54:12
gonna do anything but make everybody go wha but you know why he every part of the story
00:54:19
makes sense for why he put it in there as absurd as it is he was trying to explain one why people because he knew
00:54:28
he had been seen everywhere he had been seen with this woman he had been seen with Bert he had been seen with hair he
00:54:34
had been seen everywhere so he's he's doing this to say why people had seen him with Mary Dougherty both in town and
00:54:43
at his home because neighbors had seen her in his home two why her body and traces of blood
00:54:49
were found in his house he's explaining that away of course why the body had been by seen by gray at the house but
00:54:55
but then when the officers came back later that day it was gone he's saying well those two men came and took her
00:55:01
away so that's what I have to tell you and it's also to say why hair had been seen selling the body to Dr Knox the
00:55:07
next day because he was one of those strange men who came and got that body I have like I've said it before I'll say
00:55:13
it again I have to go like what it's it's absurd it's ridiculous and I'm like wow you really hit every you tried to
00:55:24
hit every possible thing that could connect you to this and explain every part of this but in the stupidest way
00:55:31
imaginable seriously like really wild and even more wild and unfortunate for him was that it didn't line up with
00:55:40
[ __ ] mcdougall's a [ __ ] confession about it because they didn't talk about this she's like nah me and my hubby are
00:55:46
Bros with them sorry we murdered one of the main discrepancies between his version of events that he just told that
00:55:53
wild yarn that he just spun oh my God I love when people call it like a crazy story yes the main difference and the
00:56:01
main issue between that yarn and the one that mcdougall's gonna tell is that she
00:56:08
was like oh um yeah we spent the day um drinking with William Hare and his uh his lady Margaret Laird
00:56:17
because and they're like oh like one of the guys who came to get the body that Burke didn't has never met like you know
00:56:22
who he was you guys spent multiple multiple multiple months if not years was it years
00:56:29
at the very least it's like and you didn't ever like I'm happy that you didn't but like it's mind-boggling to me
00:56:35
that not once did you sit down and say hey like if we do end up getting caught we gotta this is what we'll say hey no
00:56:43
hey Helen hey Laird come on over this is our story that we should stick to yeah you [ __ ] imbeciles yep like what yup
00:56:53
what yep it's wild I have to I Love Thinking about Burke being like and then these two men show up and they come to
00:57:03
get the body and I said oh my God this stranger's in my house coming to get this body of this woman that I out of
00:57:08
the kindness of my heart I fed and I sent into town and then she was dragging in a trunk into my house this is wild
00:57:12
these two strange men and these two strange men one of them is William Hare it's wild I I've never met that man
00:57:18
before in my life I don't even know who he is I don't know him I don't know him investigators I do not know him and then
00:57:25
they're like cool thank you and they go into the next room and they're like hey Helen can you tell me what you're doing
00:57:30
today and she's like oh my God absolutely totally we were drinking all afternoon with William hair lady
00:57:35
Margaret and it's like wow you know people never cease to surprise me never never
00:57:45
um after uh McDougall pretty much gave up the ghosts there after she shot a [ __ ]
00:57:52
megalodon-sized hole in that story what the [ __ ] ripped a hole the size of the
00:57:58
ozone layer in that story I think that's healing oh good for that yeah good for them yeah we've closed it up a little
00:58:06
we're doing something right I don't know electric cars you know what positivity yeah the joy candle look at that look at
00:58:12
that Joy you know anyway she's standing up straight she cute um but after that Burke was like
00:58:17
okay yeah I murdered her like he was just like he was literally like he's like so sorry that I um took a creative
00:58:23
writing class A few weeks ago and got confused with that while I was here but I did kill her because they just came
00:58:30
over and were like hey uh you drank with them we know that you're like real broey with William Hair
00:58:38
We Know You Wanna Do You Wanna you wanna edit that that statement you gave and that's all it took he was like
00:58:44
yeah I'm married I murdered Mary Dougherty and um several other people that was literally like from the sounds
00:58:52
of how close these couples were that would be like me saying like if John like walked into a room and the police
00:58:57
were like hey do you know that man I'd be like never seen him before no never seen him and they're like but you've
00:59:02
referenced him on this podcast multiple times I think that literally might be your sister's husband and I'm like no
00:59:07
I've known I don't know that man I don't know her he's a stranger I don't know why it's truly wild it's
00:59:16
really you can see now like they were just dumb just dumb Angry guys dumb Angry guys yes so so basically the
00:59:28
authorities in Edinburgh knew that enabled in order to get a conviction they just had to get the four of them to
00:59:33
turn on each other yeah there's four of them seemingly easy yeah and it might have been because of his younger age or
00:59:40
because Dougherty's body had been discovered in Burke's house but Lord Advocate William Ray William Ray he
00:59:47
determined that hair would be the one most likely to turn on Burke okay because all those what like hair Burke
00:59:54
is agreeing that he knows hair he hasn't thrown him completely under the bus yet
00:59:58
hair also just like gives me more diabolical Vibes yeah and hair is going to turn on Burke he's going to turn on
01:00:04
McDougall and they're like he's going to turn on Laird I'm not I don't think he's
01:00:07
got any kind of inherency to these people hair is the one that does the actual suffocating right yeah he may I
01:00:14
think he's the aggressor okay for sure they're but they both are but hair is just something about him yeah you're
01:00:21
right it makes me a little scared her agreed a little more scared of him agreed I don't know why
01:00:27
um I I thought it was kind of funny that like Burke essentially like implicated hair already but like go off King I
01:00:33
guess like sure her hair is going to turn on Burke sure but despite that Rey's assumptions seem to have been
01:00:39
pretty well placed because he offered hair immunity in exchange for a full confession and hair happily accepted he
01:00:46
said glad that I got my neck out of the halter and as for poor Bill Burke well he must go hang I suppose
01:00:54
sold his friend right up the river god and was like guess he's gotta hang he never gave a [ __ ] about him no he didn't
01:01:02
give a [ __ ] about anybody I don't give a [ __ ] about either of them [ __ ] both of
01:01:05
these losers from the moment they were arrested and put in a jail cell all four acute of the accused were prevented from
01:01:12
seeing or speaking to each other they couldn't communicate at all until the truth and
01:01:18
this makes it that it was probably a huge surprise to Burke that hair had literally turned completely against him
01:01:26
because he had no idea he went into trial being like and then it's like all of a sudden hair is like I'm the star
01:01:32
witness it's like what's like that must have been like excuse me when he probably especially didn't expect that
01:01:39
because he was the one that really did more of it exactly like actual stuff it's like are you [ __ ] kidding me so
01:01:46
as um as Lisa Rosner pointed out when the warrants for arrest and incarceration were handed down Burke and
01:01:54
McDougall probably had some idea that the Lord Advocate was being given information by either layered or hair
01:02:01
like oh Lord I know isn't that like a wild like okay Scott Disick Right Step Aside Advocate Lord Advocate uh like so
01:02:11
he probably had an idea that information was being given yeah hair and Laird um like the first warrant for the murder
01:02:17
of Mary Dougherty was sworn out against all four and so was the second one which
01:02:22
was against it was for the murder of James Wilson and only after hair's detailed confession the warrant for
01:02:28
Wilson's murder was amended and was only against Burke and McDougall so hair heading no no no against it the same
01:02:38
happened for the warrant for the murder of Mary Patterson which we only named Burke and McDougall as the perpetrators
01:02:45
in that one too oh so now Burke and McDougall are being wow I cannot see that coming I didn't either damn now
01:02:53
like we said throughout this whole thing it's very unclear the exact extent that
01:02:58
Helen McDougall played in these murders she obviously participated in some way be it yeah an outside
01:03:06
side thing you know like she definitely had knowledge of what was happening yeah
01:03:11
like definitely had it but throughout the murder spreeing confessions William Burke went to Great Lengths to
01:03:18
completely distance Helen from any of the schemes and to protect her from any prosecution and for that reason Burke
01:03:27
probably felt even doubly betrayed when he learned that hair hadn't just sold him out but it also sold McDougall out
01:03:33
right because throughout the entire thing he had tried to protect her and it's like now he made sure to like and
01:03:40
that's the thing you know hair was just so [ __ ] happy to be able to put McDougall in that I mean he literally
01:03:46
wanted to kill her so yeah now over the centuries after this Helen mcdougall's name has kind of disappeared from this
01:03:56
retelling of this story like she's in there but no one points to her as like what the [ __ ] were you doing yeah
01:04:01
exactly I do but at the time of Harris confession which they basically were they were really going off of hair's
01:04:08
confession at this point um he identified her as equally responsible for the crimes and so Burke
01:04:14
and McDougall were the only two prosecuted for the murders are you kidding me Burke and McDougall were
01:04:21
indicted December 8th 1828 for the murders of Mary Dougherty James Wilson and Mary Patterson their trial began
01:04:28
December 24th and it went a full 24 hours it was presided over Christmas it went into Christmas it was presided over
01:04:36
by a panel of four justices it began at 9 00 a.m and from the moment the doors were opened the courtroom was packed
01:04:45
yeah because then you could just like [ __ ] find your own airport room and they just wanted to see these ghouls
01:04:50
they had read a ton about them in the paper because there was tons of media so surrounding this case
01:04:55
and after they read the indictments both of the accused pleaded not guilty before the trial could begin however
01:05:02
Burke's attorney or argued it was inappropriate for his client to be tried for three unconnected murders
01:05:09
and after a long discussion the justices agreed with Burke's attorney interested
01:05:14
and ruled in favor of trying one case at a time okay so they didn't want to try the three unconnected murders in one
01:05:21
trial so after they announced the decision uh Lord Advocate William Ray was given the
01:05:27
opportunity to choose which charge he wanted to begin with and he chose the murder of Dougherty because he figured
01:05:33
it was the strongest case right so the trial went on with several witnesses saying they had seen Dougherty with
01:05:39
Burke throughout the day and also because Blake uh excuse me Burke had claimed the woman was a heavy drinker at
01:05:46
least one witness refuted that claim telling the jury she quote never saw her worser for liquor oh
01:05:54
um and after also the prosecution laid out the evidence of the murder including the body having been discovered by the
01:06:00
Grays in Burke's House the blood stains on the clothing the blood stains on the bedding on the floor the examination of
01:06:07
the body showing very clear evidence of strangulation and that she did not die of an overdose
01:06:12
the strength of the physical evidence was definitely bolstered by the Crown's key witness hair William hair Heat
01:06:21
testified that it was Burke who plotted with McDougall to kill Dougherty for money and he said quote he had an old
01:06:28
wife in the house and that it was it was a shot for the doctors and he went so hair went a step further
01:06:34
telling the the jury that Dougherty had left the house several times but had been enticed to come back inside each
01:06:42
time by none other than Helen McDougall so throughout the trial Lord Advocate William Ray and his assistant
01:06:51
prosecutors were very very deliberate and very measured in their questioning of hair on the stand okay they were very
01:06:59
careful to avoid any kind of question that might incriminate him in any of the crimes well yeah I mean that makes sense
01:07:06
he did however admit on the stand that he had sold the body to Knox but his participation in the murder of
01:07:14
Dougherty was otherwise very minimized otherwise his role in the actual murders completely ignored there were no
01:07:23
Witnesses called by the defense they just completely ignored it and after the evidence was given in
01:07:29
closing statements were made the jury deliberated it was a little after 8 A.M on December 25th on Christmas I'm
01:07:36
surprised took about an hour and they returned to guilty verdict for Burke's participation in the murder of Mary
01:07:42
Dougherty and he was sentenced to hang Merry Christmas [ __ ] the charge against Helen McDougall
01:07:49
was found to be unfounded oh so that's why you don't hear her name and her guilty ass in this story what's even
01:07:57
worse is it's 100 a certainty that Margaret Laird was involved yeah he was paid but she got no consequences and
01:08:06
what about hair yep so it's so wild to me while Burke did his best to Shield Helen of consequences for his for the
01:08:15
crimes that they had committed um it was really the defense attorney Henry cockburn who saved her from having
01:08:22
to hang I mean yeah throughout the trial he painted a picture of McDougall as a dutiful wife who lived with seeing many
01:08:29
things which are better imagined than told basically saying she saw some [ __ ] she knew what he would do to her so she
01:08:36
kept her mouth shut and she did what she was supposed what she was told to do and
01:08:40
it was true that she hadn't informed the police of Burke's crimes but it was only
01:08:44
because she quote felt obliga obliged to make false statements in order to protect Burke and avoid basically
01:08:51
becoming destitute yeah like and in this time especially that is an argument she
01:08:57
didn't want to be thrown out on the streets because that was almost certain death eventually right and so they were
01:09:02
basically being like she feared for her own life which doesn't give her like that doesn't spare her from being a
01:09:07
criminal but it also is like a way to defend her in a court of law you know like it makes it like I understand it
01:09:15
exactly um it also helped her case immensely that there was no evidence and no testimony that could even slightly
01:09:23
connect her to the murders right which she was found not guilty in the end now on the morning of January 25th 1828
01:09:31
a crowd of nearly 25 000 people gathered in lawn Market which is a Town Square Off High Street and
01:09:39
they watched William Burke hang in The Gallows damn so people were like abandoning their Christmas meals she
01:09:45
used to be like let's go watch this man well this was January 25th oh this is January yeah sorry maybe I did say
01:09:51
December no you probably said um so a month later no it right you were right a month later okay okay but what's kind of
01:10:00
ironic is uh Burke's body was donated to the Medical College the following day and was dissected by Professor Alexander
01:10:08
Monroe the doctor that they were looking for initially when they accidentally knocked on Dr knox's door
01:10:15
yo yo isn't that wild and he was dissected in front of an audience of nearly 20 000 people wow yep and when he
01:10:24
finished the dissection Dr Monroe apparently he did this thing and it's called an anatomist uh ritual okay it's
01:10:32
called where he dipped his quill into the blood still contained in Burke's head and wrote The Following declaration
01:10:39
in blood this is written with the blood of William Burke who was hanged at Edinburgh on 28th Janu it was on the
01:10:46
28th excuse me I got it wrong that's okay the 28th of January 1829 for the murder of Mrs Campbell or Dougherty the
01:10:53
blood was taken from his head on the 1st of February 1829. they were on some wild [ __ ] back then
01:11:03
they really were that's on like some opium thought process yeah yeah like you know what we should do we should make a
01:11:09
declaration blood of his skull yeah like and y'all were really God figuring I don't know
01:11:16
about that I mean if you're worried about whether Helen McDougall just went on to live her life I can help you not
01:11:23
worry about that I was that was my next question after I got past the fact that they just like wrote a quick little post
01:11:31
uh she was released from custody following the trial and she tried to go home she was met by a large group who'd
01:11:39
assembled outside of her house and made it pretty clear that she better get the [ __ ] out of Edinburgh or they were gonna
01:11:46
make sure that she didn't get out of there alive it's pretty assumed that she fled the
01:11:52
city later like very quickly after that but um no one knows what happened to her
01:11:56
after that okay she left Edinburgh hit me up with the Deets on hair people do think she was killed by an angry mob or
01:12:03
that she changed her name completely and lived in like a like isolated wow um well I will say the family of Jamie
01:12:11
Wilson yeah the um the young man who everyone literally knew and loved they protested against hare's Freedom good
01:12:19
and aggressively petitioned the government to reconsider the immunity he was given in exchange for his testing I
01:12:25
bet the Wilson's petition was given very serious consideration but the crown ultimately decided that they were going
01:12:31
to keep the immunity for his testimony and hair was very unfortunately released from custody on February 5th damn but
01:12:40
unfortunately for hair the public knew what he [ __ ] did and his very much equal participation in the
01:12:46
murders they knew about that too it took less than a day for a mob to assemble Outside The Boarding House
01:12:52
intending to uh kill him themselves for his own protection he was taken into police custody where he was dressed and
01:13:00
disguised and escorted out of the city via the road to Carlisle although he was never seen or heard from again it's
01:13:07
believed he either went to England or went back to Ireland and was never seen or hurt you you know that [ __ ]
01:13:14
murdered again 100 because he got he was the one in my opinion was way more diabolical I think they were both [ __ ]
01:13:20
up something about hair there was more to that something about him yeah he got away with it holy [ __ ] yep that's crazy
01:13:28
they should look into some [ __ ] unsolvable wherever he went I actually want to look back and see if there's any
01:13:34
connections later there's got up and I'll let you know if we find anything I don't think he just like was like um see
01:13:40
you later I'll just live a very quiet life after this bolstered so she was released from custody in
01:13:47
mid-January and she left Edinburgh for Glasgow and while she was in Glasgow she was discovered by an angry mob and was
01:13:55
had to be rescued by the authorities who put her and her baby she had a baby at this point one of those hairs or not and
01:14:03
sent her to Ireland [ __ ] um although although we don't talk about like when you read about this story you
01:14:10
don't hear a lot about what happened to Dr Knox or his wrongdoing and all of this right
01:14:15
um he definitely claimed ignorance for sure but he was confronted by authorities and they were like you you
01:14:21
definitely knew something was a miss here you might not have known the details but it's pretty hard to believe
01:14:27
that he had no idea that this that they were possibly murdering people to supply
01:14:32
him with bodies because that last body had very clear evidence Dougherty had clear evidence of being strangled and he
01:14:39
turned his eyes the other way he also pretended like he didn't know that it was Jamie but what's weird is Burke when
01:14:45
he confessed when out of his way to clear knocks of any wrongdoing as well he swore that Knox quote never
01:14:53
encouraged never taught or encouraged him to murder any person yeah I'm sure he didn't I think he just turned a blind
01:14:59
eye and it's like yeah no one's saying exactly like no one's saying that he told you to go murder people but like he
01:15:05
knew you were he didn't tell you to stop murdering people exactly and it's like luckily because you should definitely
01:15:11
not be let off scot-free here the public didn't forget his participation and everything either good and after public
01:15:18
outrage he willingly resigned from his position bye [ __ ] and Knox left Edinburgh several years later and
01:15:25
resettled in London where he died in 1882. peace out [ __ ] and that is the story of Birkin hair girl that's a
01:15:34
wild tale and you did like a really great job telling me thank you you're welcome thank you so much I was I was
01:15:39
like and thanks to Dave for like diving deep in that one I love Dave when love David
01:15:47
he's notorious it's and you know what we we got to we're working on another one that connects to this case oh my God and
01:15:56
I think Dave described it as like a hearty boys um like a Hardy Boys book but if there
01:16:02
was serial killers in coffins yeah that's exactly what he said actually I was present for that combo
01:16:08
so it's gonna be great I'm intrigued this story just is like fascinating to me mainly because of the ending one how
01:16:17
Reckless and risky they get in Brazen and how they just [ __ ] everything up from within yeah to how hair William
01:16:24
hair just I don't know what it is about him but I'm like you're scared like Burke is scary but like Harry I'm like
01:16:29
something about you and then the fact that he just gets away with it we like asserted dominance by like killing his
01:16:36
cousin he did I was like I also want to kill your wife he was just and then he made sure that she had to go she had to
01:16:42
get named in those indictments like yeah that's some like power [ __ ] and it's like scary like something happened
01:16:48
between him and McDougall I know right there in advance that like she was like that for me yeah and he was not about to
01:16:56
deal with that I mean like I just like really like made a leap there but I don't know I don't know I think well I
01:17:02
think there's a buffy episode recently where it's like don't jump to conclusions and it's like I just took it
01:17:08
I think she says like I just walked around the corner and their conclusions were yeah exactly I think this is the
01:17:13
same situation it's like I don't think that's a leap you just walked around a corner and their conclusions were and
01:17:18
with that being said we were talking the other day we're always like oh my gosh we should do like a chiller episode for
01:17:22
a palette cleanser which like we're still gonna do but if we ever do like an intense case and you need a palette
01:17:27
cleanser or if you don't and you just want to listen to another show go listen to The re-watcher Buffy the Vampire
01:17:32
Slayer it's so much fun we're re-watching Buffy Elena has seen it a million gazillion trillion times but I
01:17:39
never have and in the last episode they used a clip from Taken of Liam Neeson saying I will find you and I will kill
01:17:47
you and you don't know what that's in reference to and if that's and you should go listen and find out I don't
01:17:53
know about you they put fun Clips in there and fun little sound things it's so fun guys like that and that
01:18:02
podcast gives us the most joy in the entire world yeah it's just fun silly Nostalgia yeah exactly and if you don't
01:18:10
know now you know yeah go listen to it so with that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it we
01:18:16
we're not Serena's hair definitely not as weird as Burke and hair ever or McDougall or Larry but never ever ever
01:18:22
keep it as weird as hair because I don't even know how weird that [ __ ] kept it but he kept it too weird I can
01:18:28
tell you that yeah he definitely kept it too weird so like bye bye [Music]