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Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders

December 14, 2025 / 01:42:38

This episode covers the yogurt shop murders, featuring discussions on the case's history, the investigation, and the eventual identification of the killer, Robert Eugene Brashers. Ash and Elena talk about the impact on the victims' families and the wrongful convictions of Maurice Pierce, Rob Springsteen, and Michael Scott.

The episode begins with Ash and Elena discussing their holiday baking plans before transitioning into the main topic. They recount the tragic events of December 6, 1991, when four teenage girls were murdered at a yogurt shop in Austin, Texas. The initial investigation faced numerous challenges, including a compromised crime scene.

As the investigation progressed, multiple suspects were interviewed, but it wasn't until decades later that DNA technology advanced enough to identify Brashers as the killer. The episode highlights the emotional toll on the victims' families and the wrongful imprisonment of the accused.

Ash and Elena reflect on the failures of the justice system and the importance of continued efforts to seek justice for the victims. They emphasize the need for accountability in law enforcement and the impact of community support in solving cold cases.

In closing, they share a random fun fact about durian fruit, known for its strong odor, as a lighthearted end to a heavy topic.

TL;DR

The yogurt shop murders case is revisited, revealing the wrongful convictions and eventual identification of killer Robert Brashers after decades of investigation.

Episode

1:42:38

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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And

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this is Morbid.

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This is morbid. It is. And it smells

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really good in the pod labio right now.

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>> It does. It smells like pumpkins.

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>> Yeah, a little bit.

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>> Kind of to me smells like sugar cookies.

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>> Smells like a bit of both. Maybe some

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pumpkin sugar cookies.

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>> That actually sounds [ __ ] awesome.

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>> Maybe I'll make some of those.

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>> Maybe you should.

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>> Maybe I should. Uh I did I want to make

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some cookies tonight. I'm in a cookie

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making mood.

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>> I'm in a cookie making mood, too. I've

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been watching so much um Holiday Baking

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Championship

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>> and I I was watching one of the old

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seasons the other day and I saw somebody

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make a checkered cookie and I really

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want to make a checkered cookie now.

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>> Ooh, that sounds hard, but I want to try

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it.

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>> I think it's like not hard, it's just

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tedious. Yeah. You know what I mean?

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Mhm. Yeah.

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>> I'm into it, though. I'm I'm definitely

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into doing some holiday cookies.

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>> Yeah. Drew got me for Christmas a

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KitchenAid and it got delivered like in

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the KitchenAid box. So, I saw it and I

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was like, can I just have that even

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though it's for Christmas?

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>> Can I have that?

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>> Can I have it? And I'm so excited.

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They're the best.

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>> I had a KitchenAid and then I switched

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to a different brand, which I won't say

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cuz it's not a bad brand. I just like

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don't really want it

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>> Yeah.

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>> anymore. And I was like, "Could you get

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me a KitchenAid again? I know that's

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really annoying." And he was like,

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"Maybe." And then it showed up at our

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doorstep

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>> in the in the KitchenAid box.

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>> And I said,

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>> that is what she said.

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>> Must make cookies.

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>> It's true. That's what she said. I did

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see this thing and maybe you should get

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one of these now that you have

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KitchenAid. Tell me. I'm going to get

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one. It's like a rubber bowl that you

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put in your KitchenAid mixer or

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KitchenAid mixer. I haven't had enough

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caffeine today.

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>> I haven't had a lot of cough.

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>> No. And it's a rubber bowl that like you

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can literally smush up

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>> to easily clean it.

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>> That's cool.

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>> That way if you just like want to mix

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something small or quick or mix two

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different things like you know dry

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ingredients and wet ingredients, you're

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not messing up the bowl and having to

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keep washing the bowl over and over

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again.

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>> That's a great idea cuz there are so

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many times where you have to like mix

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the separate ingredients and I'm always

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like

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>> h like I hate that I have to do this in

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like another Yeah. like bowl that's not

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attached to my kitchen.

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>> Exactly.

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>> Yeah. Cool. Cool. I'm going to get one

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of those.

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>> I think I might get one of those.

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>> I got the KitchenAid one, too, cuz Mikey

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was telling me. This isn't sponsored, by

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the way.

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>> No,

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>> it's just exciting. But KitchenAid, if

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you want to sponsor, that'd be sick.

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>> Honey, if you want a sponsor, I'll send

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you that rubber bowl.

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>> I love your [ __ ]

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>> I do, too. I went back to it. Um, I had

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the Twiston one before and Mikey was

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saying that because I make a lot of

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bread, putting like the It's like a lift

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one instead.

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>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

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>> Yeah. I haven't unboxed mine yet, but I

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think I might do that today.

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>> I think you should. Maybe I'll make some

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checkered cookies today.

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>> I think it feels right today.

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>> It does. It's cold as [ __ ] It's that

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kind of day. It's a It's a holiday day.

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>> Yeah, but it's not an actual holiday.

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>> No, it's just like December. It's true.

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If you have children listening, I'm

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going to I'm going to talk about some

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top secret parent business.

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So, uh, send them out. Get them. Get rid

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of them.

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>> All right. They're out of the room. So,

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how's your Elf on the Shelf going,

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everybody? Uh for those who who

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celebrate

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>> mine is going great. We are eight days

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in.

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>> Hell yeah.

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>> We have not forgotten a night. There you

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go.

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>> That's pretty.

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>> You haven't gotten into bedum in like

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[ __ ]

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>> Uh we did that once, I will say. But um

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forgetting a night to me constitutes I

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sit up at 4 or 5 in the morning like

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like I'm being risen from the dead. It's

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literally like a and you like sit up and

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you run downstairs in this fog of JUST

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LIKE OH GOD I'VE RUINED THE MAGIC and

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it's not it's 4 like nobody's but then

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you just stick them in a tree or

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something and you're like oh there he is

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he's in the tree today.

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>> It's that hasn't happened yet. No,

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you've been doing really well.

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>> So far we've really

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>> we've really gone for it.

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>> Her kids are Dancing with the Stars fans

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now. So I sent her a Dancing with the

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Stars one that was pretty cute.

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>> That one I've been holding. I haven't

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done it yet. I mean, that's like a

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closer to Christmas.

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>> Yeah. And it's one that requires a

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little more like pre-planning. So,

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>> yeah, you need to get Barbie involved

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and like a couple a couple of Barbies

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signage.

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>> Got to get some Barbies involved. Yeah,

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we got to do the whole thing. Yeah, they

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they're very into Dancing with the Stars

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all of a sudden because I think uh I

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think it was Robert Irwin that got them

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into

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>> If anybody's going to get you into

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Dancing with the Stars, Robert,

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>> they love him. They rooted for him hard

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and I love it. Yeah, he's a I'm like

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clearly no we we all know it was we all

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know ladies

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>> it was his technique.

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>> It was loved him that way. I was like I

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I was like hey if you're going to have a

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crush on anyone have a crush on Robert

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Irwin.

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>> Hell yeah. You know but uh yeah. So

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hopefully everybody's off on the shelf.

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I here's a reminder. Make sure you move

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it tonight.

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>> Move that little [ __ ] Here's your

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reminder. Uh maybe I'll post a couple of

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the ideas that I found. I found a lot of

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ideas on Tik Tok. So,

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>> there's so many cute ones. I don't even

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have a lot of them when I get them.

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>> Yeah.

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>> I'm like, "Oh, do this tonight."

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>> They get so excited.

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>> Like the one I did today. And don't

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worry, we'll get to the to the story.

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>> First holiday magic.

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>> But we the one we did that happened

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today was our elf, David Bowie. That's

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his name.

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>> They named him.

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>> They named him when they were like two.

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Uh they he was like strung up in in

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Christmas lights and hung over like the

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banister. So, he's like hanging in the

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middle of the hallway.

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>> It's amazing.

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>> And he's and he's like all it's like all

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around him. And then I hung a little

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little sign off of him that said, "Your

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Cuz they have fairies." All three of

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them obviously.

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>> Um we're a whimsical household.

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>> And it said, "Your fairies caught me. Um

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can someone please explain to them who I

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am?" And then it says, "Help. Love David

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Bowie."

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>> I love it.

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>> They loved this. Before they left for

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school, my oldest ran over to David

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Bowie hanging upside down in lights and

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said,

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>> "Hey, David, I promise you we're going

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to talk to the fairies when we get home.

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I'm just going to be late for school.

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Okay, love you. Bye." And then ran away.

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>> I just love, "Hey, David.

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>> David."

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>> Also, when he was originally named,

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wasn't he David Bowie? David Bowie.

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>> No, that's one of their fairies.

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>> Oh, wow. So, maybe that's what the

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fairies are pissed about.

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>> Yeah. So the the elf on the shelf is

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David Bowie. Then there's a fairy that's

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named David Bowie. David Bowie. And then

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there's another fairy called Fairy

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Fairy.

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>> And then there's And then there's pink.

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>> Just pink.

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>> Just pink.

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>> I like fairy fairy.

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>> Kids fan.

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>> Yeah. You know, so I know Elf on the

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Shelf can be a lot, but

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>> it's cute though.

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>> They love it and it's worth it.

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>> I love it. I love coming over and being

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like, "Where's the elf?

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>> Where's the elf?"

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>> What was the Oh, I like the bruh.

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>> Bruh bruh.

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I [ __ ] hate the six seven thing

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>> as does every adult on the planet.

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>> But here was my thinking cuz John was

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like ah cuz I was like we got to do on

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because it was December 6th and 7th. I

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was like we got to have David Bowie

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acknowledge that. So I had him write a

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thing that was like bruh cuz they all

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they're big into lately.

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>> And I told John I said

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>> once the parents start doing the the

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trend it

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>> it's not cool anymore. So if we if we

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feed into it, they're going to be like,

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"That's not cool anymore."

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>> But they like us.

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>> I know. So I think that they they don't

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care cuz John said like a six seven

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thing like not meaning to. He was

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literally referencing the number six and

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seven for something else yesterday.

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>> Yeah.

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>> And one of them was like, "Da,

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>> it still it

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>> we'll see.

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>> It'll die." There's another thing that

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Drew was telling me about. His like

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little cousin was telling him that

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there's like a hand motion that means

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something and yeah, it's the next thing.

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>> I'm out.

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>> I don't know.

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>> I'm out.

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>> I'm still stuck on that skippy toilet.

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RZ,

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>> I I've never acknowledged that

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happening.

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>> How do you not acknowledge that?

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>> Cuz I can't

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>> I still don't know what it is, what it

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means, where it came from. But just the

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fact that the children of the streets

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were going around saying Skippy toilet

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Riz,

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>> that just makes me so sad though.

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>> But then I think about the dumb [ __ ] we

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said. Like I mean, you know, for sure it

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wasn't as anything can really compare to

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Skibby toilet RZ. But

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>> I mean me, our my people said our

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eyebrows were on fleek.

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>> Yeah, that's true.

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>> What does that even mean?

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>> No idea. I love it, but I don't still

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say it to this day. But

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>> yeah,

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>> it's pretty bad.

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>> It's pretty pretty random.

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>> Pretty random.

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>> Um, now to the business part.

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>> Oh, the business and then we get into

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the

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>> Yeah, cuz actually this is going to be a

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long one.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So, business part. We are still going to

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cover all of the Twilight episodes

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because

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>> cuz you guys were awesome about that.

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>> People loved them and we loved it. It

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was so much fun. So, we're going we're

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going to do New Moon and I think it will

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be our January uh bonus episode.

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>> Yes. Because

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>> because our next bonus

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>> is going to be dropping Sunday, December

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14th, which is usually on a Friday, but

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this is a special one.

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>> It's special.

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>> It's going to be dropping simultaneously

00:09:16

with the creators who made it, who are

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>> we joined them for a [ __ ] expedition

00:09:25

of the night.

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>> It was literally What time did we start

00:09:29

our exploration? It was early. We

00:09:32

started our exploration early and it

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literally I think we got in our car to

00:09:35

start driving home at like 4:00 a.m.

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>> Yeah, it was like 4 or 4:30. We drove

00:09:39

home maybe closer to 5.

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>> It was nuts out.

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>> Um it was a allnighter.

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>> Yeah, we're not going to say what it is

00:09:45

because they are going to release the

00:09:47

video and we will release our discussion

00:09:50

of that video with that's it was when

00:09:53

they were here. So, it's a discussion

00:09:55

with them is what the bonus episode will

00:09:56

be

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>> where we go over everything and kind of

00:09:59

talk through it. So, highly encourage

00:10:02

you to watch the video and listen to the

00:10:04

bonus episode because they're going to

00:10:05

be good companions with each other. And

00:10:07

it was so much fun.

00:10:08

>> Yeah, I would watch the video first and

00:10:10

then listen to the bonus

00:10:11

>> because we'll discuss the video. So, I

00:10:12

think it makes sense to watch the video

00:10:14

first.

00:10:14

>> Yeah, it is just so much fun.

00:10:16

>> It really is.

00:10:16

>> We met so many cool people and we'll

00:10:18

just say that.

00:10:19

>> Yeah, there was a lot there was more

00:10:21

people involved.

00:10:21

>> Yes, definitely. But also, I think it

00:10:24

helps because um we know that everybody

00:10:26

you guys loved the Twilight episode and

00:10:28

we loved it, but I know there's some

00:10:30

people that don't want like back to back

00:10:32

to back

00:10:33

>> five bonus episodes in a row to just be

00:10:35

Twilight. So, we want to make sure we're

00:10:37

kind of spreading them out at least like

00:10:39

every other or every two, you know what

00:10:41

I mean? So, we will absolutely be

00:10:43

covering all of them. We're just going

00:10:44

to spread them out so everybody gets

00:10:46

what they want to hear on a bonus

00:10:47

episode.

00:10:48

>> We We got what you need.

00:10:50

>> We got what you need. And you say that

00:10:52

we're just a friend. And we are.

00:10:54

>> And we are. And we're just your friends.

00:10:55

>> We're just friends.

00:10:56

>> All right. So, actually very strange

00:10:59

that we're recording this today because

00:11:02

I think it's like not that far off from

00:11:04

when this happened.

00:11:04

>> Oh, wow.

00:11:05

>> Which I didn't plan. Um, but we're going

00:11:07

to be talking about the yogurt shop

00:11:09

murders today. I

00:11:10

>> waiting for this one. This is like one

00:11:12

of our most highly requested cases and

00:11:14

I've always wanted to kind of like dive

00:11:16

into it, especially since I like really

00:11:19

I watched the HBO documentary recently

00:11:20

and I was like, "Oh, wow." Like there

00:11:22

was so much more to this than I

00:11:23

realized, but it's perfect timing kind

00:11:26

of to go over it at this point because

00:11:28

it's now solved and it had not been

00:11:30

solved for decades,

00:11:32

>> long time. So just before midnight on

00:11:35

December 6th, 1991, Sergeant John

00:11:38

Winston, who was the only member of

00:11:40

Austin's homicide unit on the clock at

00:11:42

that time,

00:11:43

>> that's crazy.

00:11:44

>> Like, can you imagine?

00:11:45

>> No.

00:11:45

>> He was leaving a scene where a man had

00:11:47

actually barricaded himself inside his

00:11:49

apartment with a gun and he had just

00:11:51

left that scene and another call came

00:11:54

in. According to the dispatcher,

00:11:56

firefighters had responded to a fire at

00:11:58

I Can't Believe It's Yogurt, which was a

00:12:00

frozen yogurt store on West Anderson

00:12:02

Lane. And when they were finally able to

00:12:04

enter the building, they discovered at

00:12:06

first two bodies, both of which had been

00:12:09

shot in the head. Now, since he was the

00:12:11

only homicide officer on duty at that

00:12:13

point in time, he took the call, headed

00:12:15

to the scene.

00:12:16

>> Yeah.

00:12:16

>> Before he got there, another call came

00:12:18

from dispatch that they had discovered a

00:12:20

third body. And then moments later,

00:12:23

another call came in. and he's still on

00:12:24

his way there. And the dispatcher

00:12:26

updated saying, "Make that four."

00:12:28

>> There's four bodies in a fire. That must

00:12:32

be so chilling to hear, "Make that

00:12:34

four."

00:12:34

>> Yeah, cuz it's just so like okay, and

00:12:37

another like just rough.

00:12:39

>> So when he got to the strip mall, the

00:12:41

lot was buzzing with firefighters

00:12:43

working, other police officers,

00:12:45

reporters of course, onlookers. Upon

00:12:47

arrival, he checked in with the first

00:12:49

officer on the scene, who was Sergeant

00:12:51

John Jones. He described what he found

00:12:53

when he was finally able to enter the

00:12:55

building and said, "There were puddles

00:12:56

of water all over the place. The bodies

00:12:58

were still smoldering and it was hot. It

00:13:01

was smoky and I was by myself."

00:13:04

>> What a haunting scene to walk into.

00:13:07

>> That sounds awful.

00:13:08

>> And at a yogurt shop. Like one of the

00:13:10

most innocent places.

00:13:11

>> That's the thing. It's just so innocent.

00:13:13

>> And it's like, as we've come to find

00:13:15

out, four teenage girls just working on

00:13:18

closing up that place.

00:13:19

>> That's awful. So, according to Jones, it

00:13:21

was actually the firefighters who first

00:13:23

found the bodies while they were trying

00:13:25

to get the fire subdued. They had just

00:13:28

extinguished the blaze, and they were

00:13:29

knocking out the windows to ventilate

00:13:31

the room when one of them spotted what

00:13:33

looked like a foot on the floor. And

00:13:35

when the smoke cleared and they could

00:13:37

finally take in the rest of the room,

00:13:38

they discovered the charred bodies of

00:13:40

17-year-old Eliza Thomas and her

00:13:43

coworker, 17-year-old Jennifer Harbison.

00:13:46

So, just two 17year-olds. literally

00:13:49

kids.

00:13:50

>> Moments later, they found the body of

00:13:52

Jennifer's sister, 15-year-old Sarah

00:13:54

Harbison, lying just a few feet away

00:13:56

from her sister. All three bodies had

00:13:59

suffered obviously serious damage from

00:14:01

the fire.

00:14:02

>> But all three were also nude and had

00:14:05

been bound and gagged with their own

00:14:06

underwear.

00:14:07

>> Oh my god,

00:14:08

>> this is a brutal, brutal case. It was

00:14:11

immediately clear obviously that they

00:14:12

weren't just victims of an accidental

00:14:14

fire. So the firefighters just left the

00:14:16

bodies where they were rather than take

00:14:18

them out like they usually would. So

00:14:21

while they kept making their way through

00:14:22

the shop opening windows, another

00:14:24

firefighter went around the back of the

00:14:26

building to force the back door open.

00:14:29

And as he was working from the back of

00:14:30

the store trying to ventilate the room,

00:14:32

he opened the door to a small storage

00:14:34

area where he discovered the fourth

00:14:36

body, which was the youngest victim,

00:14:38

13-year-old Amy Heirs.

00:14:40

>> 13

00:14:42

years old. So unlike the others who had

00:14:44

been shot in the head execution style,

00:14:46

and their bodies were burned almost

00:14:48

beyond recognition, Amy had suffered a

00:14:51

lot less damage from the fire, but she

00:14:54

had been shot twice in the head.

00:14:56

>> Like the

00:14:56

>> shot twice in the head.

00:14:57

>> Twice. Yeah. Like the other girl, she

00:14:59

was also nude, but she had some kind of

00:15:01

cloth sack wrapped around her neck.

00:15:04

>> And later, investigators theorized that

00:15:06

the killer or killers had stacked all

00:15:08

four bodies on top of one another before

00:15:11

setting the fire. But Amy, who was alive

00:15:13

at the time, managed to crawl away and

00:15:16

into the storage area.

00:15:18

>> My god.

00:15:19

>> Yeah, that's even more horrifying.

00:15:21

>> It is. So firefighters efforts to

00:15:24

extinguish the blaze, while obviously

00:15:25

necessary, did cause a lot of additional

00:15:28

damage to the crime scene above and

00:15:30

beyond what was already done by the

00:15:32

fire. But still, the evidence of a mass

00:15:35

killing was clear to investigators at

00:15:36

the scene. Jones told a reporter, "I saw

00:15:39

things in Vietnam and I thought nothing

00:15:41

will ever match that. Well, this matches

00:15:43

that because it's in Austin, Texas,

00:15:45

right down the street from where we

00:15:46

live."

00:15:47

>> Oh, that's awful. Like for that to like

00:15:49

obviously what he walked into for that

00:15:51

to be comparable to things he saw in

00:15:53

Vietnam

00:15:54

>> to be able to compare those two things

00:15:56

>> like that's next level.

00:15:58

>> So what remained of the interior of the

00:15:59

yogurt shop after the fire was put out

00:16:02

really didn't provide a lot of evidence.

00:16:04

Almost every surface was covered with

00:16:06

soot, water, smoke. They couldn't

00:16:08

fingerprint anything. And most other

00:16:10

physical evidence was basically

00:16:12

completely compromised and soaked

00:16:14

through. So, the only real clues that

00:16:16

investigators had were the fact that the

00:16:18

register was empty, which obviously s

00:16:20

suggested that the motive was robbery.

00:16:22

>> Yeah.

00:16:23

>> And then the fact that the victims had

00:16:24

been shot with two different weapons,

00:16:26

which to them implied multiple killers.

00:16:28

>> Yeah.

00:16:29

>> And finally, the key was still in the

00:16:32

lock of the front door when firefighters

00:16:34

broke it down. So, that implied that the

00:16:36

killer or killers gained entry through

00:16:38

the back door. So, they had a few things

00:16:40

to go on.

00:16:41

>> Yeah. A quick call to the management of

00:16:43

the yogurt shop confirmed that two of

00:16:45

the victims, Jennifer and Eliza, were

00:16:48

employees and they were working the

00:16:49

closing shift. And the other two victims

00:16:51

were identified a short time later, like

00:16:53

I said, as Jennifer's sister, Sarah, and

00:16:55

Sarah's friend Amy. Formal

00:16:58

identification would be done the

00:16:59

following day through dental records,

00:17:00

and that obviously confirmed everything.

00:17:03

But Jones and the other investigators

00:17:05

quickly put together a working theory

00:17:06

that Jennifer and Eliza were closing the

00:17:09

store that night and the other two girls

00:17:11

stopped by to help them close, which

00:17:13

it's just like

00:17:14

>> So they

00:17:14

>> they didn't even have to be there.

00:17:16

>> Yeah.

00:17:17

>> And at some point between their last

00:17:18

customer and locking the doors for the

00:17:20

night, the girls were held at gunpoint

00:17:22

by at least two men who intended to rob

00:17:24

the store is what they thought.

00:17:26

>> Yeah.

00:17:26

>> Detective Mike Huckabe told a reporter,

00:17:28

"The first thing that comes to mind is

00:17:29

crack cocaine." like a robbery involving

00:17:32

that.

00:17:34

>> So, what happened after the gunman

00:17:35

entered the store was basically a

00:17:37

complete mystery. A no sale was rung up

00:17:39

at 11:03 p.m. and there was money

00:17:42

missing from the register, but the key

00:17:44

to the office where they kept the day's

00:17:46

revenue was still under the register

00:17:47

where it was supposed to be. And the

00:17:49

office hadn't been touched, which was

00:17:51

where most of the money was.

00:17:52

>> Yeah. And where you would think there

00:17:53

would be most of the money.

00:17:54

>> Exactly. According to the arson

00:17:56

inspector, the fire had been set along

00:17:58

the south wall of the storage room. But

00:18:01

when it came to the type of accelerant

00:18:03

used to set the fire, the main

00:18:05

investigator, the arson inspector and

00:18:07

the other investigators from Austin Fire

00:18:09

Department were at a complete loss to

00:18:11

identify it,

00:18:12

>> which is weird

00:18:13

>> because under most circumstances, like

00:18:15

the most common accelerants uh are

00:18:18

lighter fluid and gasoline and obviously

00:18:20

that leaves like a distinct odor,

00:18:22

>> but there was no odor like that. So, and

00:18:24

neither the crime scene or the bodies

00:18:26

contain any evidence of what was used.

00:18:28

>> Interesting.

00:18:28

>> So, it's really weird.

00:18:29

>> Yeah.

00:18:30

>> In the days that followed, autopsies

00:18:32

were obviously conducted on the victims

00:18:34

and that confirmed what everybody kind

00:18:36

of saw at the initial exam and also

00:18:39

revealed some new details. So, all four

00:18:42

autopsies were conducted by Dr. Tommy

00:18:44

Brown, pathologist from Houston, who did

00:18:47

kind of occasional work for the Travis

00:18:48

County Medical Examiner's Office, and

00:18:51

his work was overseen by the deputy

00:18:53

medical examiner, Les Carpenter, and he

00:18:56

was known as a quote tight ass when it

00:18:58

came to protocol. So, these were going

00:18:59

to be done like to the tea.

00:19:01

>> Yeah.

00:19:02

>> So, according to their reports, Eliza,

00:19:04

Jennifer, and Sarah had each been killed

00:19:06

by one gunshot wound to the back of the

00:19:08

head. They said it was fired at close

00:19:10

range from a 22 caliber gun. Sarah had

00:19:13

been sexually assaulted and trace

00:19:15

evidence was collected. Jennifer had

00:19:17

liature marks around her neck similar to

00:19:19

the ones found on Amy's neck. And

00:19:22

although their bodies had obviously been

00:19:23

severely burned in the fire, the medical

00:19:26

examiner believed that the burns were

00:19:27

sustained postmortem.

00:19:29

>> Oh, thankfully.

00:19:29

>> So, like at least there's that

00:19:31

>> which kind of uh changes like the

00:19:34

initial theory where they thought that

00:19:35

Amy had crawled off.

00:19:37

>> So, at least that hopefully didn't

00:19:40

happen, you Thank goodness for small

00:19:41

favors.

00:19:42

>> But she still Amy was the outlier.

00:19:45

>> She, like I said, had been discovered in

00:19:47

a different part of the store and her

00:19:49

murder was different. The medical

00:19:50

examiner found skin cells under her

00:19:52

nails, obviously indicating that she

00:19:54

fought back, and it also could have

00:19:56

explained why her death was a little

00:19:57

more brutal than the others.

00:19:59

>> Mhm.

00:19:59

>> According to the autopsy, she had a

00:20:01

bruise under her chin that was obviously

00:20:03

sustained in the assault. She had also

00:20:05

been partially strangled with a piece of

00:20:07

cloth that was recovered at the scene.

00:20:10

And as for her cause of death, she was

00:20:11

shot in the back of the head with a 22

00:20:13

caliber like the others, but she had

00:20:15

that second gunshot wound that went uh

00:20:18

entered through the right side of her

00:20:19

head and entered through or um exited,

00:20:22

excuse me, through her left cheek.

00:20:24

>> Jesus.

00:20:24

>> Yeah. So, Austin obviously is one of the

00:20:27

larger cities in Texas. Like, we all

00:20:28

know that. But in 1991, it still had

00:20:31

like a very small town identity. Yeah.

00:20:33

It was the kind of place where like they

00:20:35

managed to avoid the violence and

00:20:36

disconnection that happens in big cities

00:20:38

and you know the kind of place where

00:20:40

nothing ever happens here.

00:20:41

>> It had more of like a small town vibe.

00:20:43

>> Yes, very much so. I really want to go

00:20:45

to Austin by the way.

00:20:47

>> Yeah. Isn't it like keep Austin weird?

00:20:49

Isn't that there? So I feel like it's

00:20:51

such it sounds like such a cool place.

00:20:53

>> It's calling to us.

00:20:54

>> It is.

00:20:54

>> But back to the story. When the news of

00:20:56

the yogurt shop murders broke the next

00:20:58

day, it was like Austin's innocence had

00:21:01

completely shattered and so did

00:21:03

everybody's feelings of safety. Anybody

00:21:05

who knew the victims was absolutely

00:21:07

devastated by the news of these murders.

00:21:10

One student from Lineer High School told

00:21:11

a reporter, "There's a lot of denial.

00:21:13

Nobody wants to think this happened."

00:21:15

>> Yeah, of course.

00:21:16

>> Don't blame them. The Monday after the

00:21:17

murders, the teachers and all the

00:21:19

administrative staff at the high school

00:21:21

really just prepared for a day of

00:21:22

mourning and they spent the majority of

00:21:24

the day talking with students about what

00:21:26

had happened. Principal Paul Turner

00:21:28

said, "We have to help them process what

00:21:30

they're feeling." I can't imagine

00:21:34

processing a trauma like this as a high

00:21:37

schooler.

00:21:37

>> No. Like and you just you like these are

00:21:41

your girlfriends that were in your class

00:21:43

yesterday

00:21:44

>> and like girlfriends that were just at

00:21:47

their part-time job that you also have a

00:21:49

part-time job and

00:21:50

>> yeah go to it without a thought.

00:21:52

>> Your sister might come and help you

00:21:53

clean up for the night and you know they

00:21:54

were probably had plans to hang out

00:21:56

afterwards like

00:21:56

>> just do a normal

00:21:58

>> Yeah, exactly.

00:21:59

>> they got dressed for work or to go see

00:22:01

their friends or their sister and never

00:22:03

knew that that was the end.

00:22:04

>> It's really really awful.

00:22:06

>> Awful. So, everybody who didn't know the

00:22:08

victims, they were still very affected

00:22:10

by the murders, too. One local man told

00:22:12

a reporter, "It reminds me of the street

00:22:13

horror that I left behind in Manhattan."

00:22:16

For some, the yogurt shop murders

00:22:17

represented something even more than the

00:22:20

murder of just four girls. It was

00:22:21

evidence that problems in the cities

00:22:23

like Houston and Dallas had made their

00:22:25

way to the relatively peaceful suburbs,

00:22:27

>> which is scary.

00:22:28

>> It is super scary. Uh, Austin resident

00:22:31

Cynthia Baron said, "At one time, girls

00:22:33

could go anywhere. Now, you've got to be

00:22:34

careful. You can't trust anybody

00:22:36

anymore." And it's gotten worse.

00:22:38

>> Oh. Um, exponentially so.

00:22:40

>> Yeah.

00:22:40

>> In one interview after another though,

00:22:42

representatives from law enforcement

00:22:44

repeated their working theory of

00:22:45

robbery, citing the fact that there was

00:22:47

some money missing. Lieutenant Andrew

00:22:49

Waters said, "That's the best theory,

00:22:51

but it's possible there could have been

00:22:52

something else and they attempted to

00:22:54

make it look like a robbery."

00:22:56

>> That makes sense.

00:22:57

>> The truth was when it came to the motive

00:22:59

for the murder and the identity of the

00:23:01

suspects, investigators were very much

00:23:03

in the dark, just like everybody else in

00:23:05

Austin. The scene, like we were saying

00:23:07

in the beginning, was so heavily

00:23:09

compromised by not only the fire, but

00:23:11

the water to extinguish it.

00:23:13

>> So, evidence was impossible to collect.

00:23:15

>> So, they were kind of just going on like

00:23:17

theory and speculation, but I mean, but

00:23:19

not bad speculation, I would say. At

00:23:21

this point, it seems like they're

00:23:23

>> they're kind of theorizing in the right

00:23:25

direction.

00:23:26

>> Yeah, they're going in the right

00:23:26

direction. And here, like what was

00:23:29

collected didn't do a lot to point them

00:23:30

in any specific direction, though. That

00:23:33

was the problem. there was money missing

00:23:35

from the register but and the killer or

00:23:37

killers didn't bother to look in the

00:23:39

office though where the larger sums of

00:23:40

money would have been and like you said

00:23:41

like is pretty obvious so that was weird

00:23:44

>> and further complicating matters was the

00:23:46

fact that three of the victims had been

00:23:48

sexually assaulted. Obviously, some

00:23:50

robberies can involve sexual assault and

00:23:53

obviously can escalate to murder, but it

00:23:55

seemed very unlikely that somebody would

00:23:57

go into the yogurt shop, rob the place,

00:24:00

and then spur of the moment decide to

00:24:02

sexually assault these girls.

00:24:03

>> Yeah, it is a strange like

00:24:05

>> set of pathology here.

00:24:07

>> Yeah. It all seemed very planned though

00:24:09

to investigators the more and more they

00:24:11

looked into it. And within a day of the

00:24:13

murders, the relatively small Austin

00:24:15

Police Department found themselves

00:24:16

pretty much faced with an unimaginable

00:24:18

crime. and nowhere to go. No one on the

00:24:21

force had that much experience at the

00:24:24

time with any case that was similar. But

00:24:27

unfortunately, no one on the force or

00:24:29

the administration wanted to admit that

00:24:31

they might have been a little bit out of

00:24:32

their league here. So instead, they

00:24:34

rallied their best investigators and

00:24:36

vowed to find the killers, which was

00:24:39

good that they were so dedicated to

00:24:41

this, but at the same time, if you're

00:24:42

out of your league, you got to admit

00:24:43

that you're

00:24:45

>> So, as the residents of Austin came

00:24:47

together to mourn the deaths of the

00:24:48

girls, a task force of Austin homicide

00:24:50

investigators and investigators from the

00:24:52

local district attorney's office got to

00:24:55

work interviewing friends, family,

00:24:57

anybody that they could talk to to learn

00:24:59

more about their victims and also

00:25:01

establish like a concrete timeline of

00:25:03

events. So, what they learned was really

00:25:05

more or less what you would expect to

00:25:06

learn of four teenage girls. They were

00:25:08

good students. They were well-liked.

00:25:10

They were active in community groups. A

00:25:12

teacher of Jennifer said she brought joy

00:25:14

to the classroom. And her sister Sarah

00:25:17

Sarah had already established herself as

00:25:19

assertive, enthusiastic. She was a

00:25:21

leader, clearly a kid who was going to

00:25:23

make a mark on the world.

00:25:24

>> Oh, that's so sad.

00:25:25

>> Yeah. Elsewhere in Austin, other

00:25:27

detectives from the task force were

00:25:29

working together to put a timeline of

00:25:31

the day together. From the moment they

00:25:33

the that the murders were reported in

00:25:35

the paper, the task force was flooded

00:25:38

with tips about suspicious cars,

00:25:39

suspicious people.

00:25:41

>> Yeah.

00:25:41

>> Everybody wants to help, but everybody's

00:25:44

kind of saying the same stuff.

00:25:45

>> Yeah.

00:25:45

>> A typical tip from the public was like

00:25:47

this one from Lucella Jones, who was a

00:25:50

customer at the yogurt shop on the night

00:25:51

of the murders. She said she remembered

00:25:53

seeing two teenage boys in the shop who

00:25:55

were focusing intently on something

00:25:57

between them, a small sack of some kind.

00:26:00

Like Jones, it seemed that everybody who

00:26:02

was at the yogurt shop that night, had

00:26:04

seen something suspicious.

00:26:06

>> From what investigators could tell,

00:26:08

though, the night was pretty much like

00:26:09

any other for Eliza and Jennifer, they

00:26:12

usually worked closing shifts together.

00:26:14

But investigators figured things

00:26:16

deviated around 900 p.m. when Jennifer

00:26:18

went on break and drove to pick up her

00:26:20

sister and Amy in uh Northcross. I think

00:26:22

they were at the Northcross mall.

00:26:24

>> Okay.

00:26:24

>> And then when they got back to the shop

00:26:26

a short time later, Jennifer punches

00:26:27

back in and then Sarah and Amy went to

00:26:30

pick up a pizza at a local restaurant.

00:26:32

>> Okay.

00:26:33

>> Several customers remembered seeing uh

00:26:35

Sarah and Amy sitting in one of the

00:26:37

booths at the yogurt shop eating their

00:26:38

pizza. At 10:42 p.m., just 18 minutes

00:26:42

before closing, Eliza rang in the final

00:26:44

sale for the night to Tim Striker and

00:26:47

his girlfriend Margaret Sheen. Other

00:26:49

than Sarah and Amy, Tim and his

00:26:51

girlfriend said they remembered seeing

00:26:52

two large people in hooded jackets

00:26:55

sitting in a booth together.

00:26:56

>> Oh, they didn't really get a look at the

00:26:59

faces of the two people at the table,

00:27:01

but they said they remembered them

00:27:02

because it didn't look like they were

00:27:04

talking to each other. And there was

00:27:05

also no food on their table, like they

00:27:07

weren't eating. They were just sitting

00:27:09

at a table together.

00:27:10

>> Just sitting there

00:27:11

>> being weird

00:27:12

>> in silence and hoodies.

00:27:13

>> Okay. In silence and hoodies.

00:27:15

>> Yeah. Not great.

00:27:16

>> So, when she was interviewed by police,

00:27:18

Margaret Sheen told investigators she

00:27:20

never got the impression something was

00:27:21

wrong in the yogurt shop that night. And

00:27:23

as far as she could remember, Eliza and

00:27:25

Jennifer were just talking about like

00:27:27

the schedule that was upcoming that week

00:27:28

ahead and a friend that they were going

00:27:30

to visit. But it did seem to her that

00:27:33

the men in the hooded jackets were

00:27:35

listening in on Eliza and Jennifer's

00:27:37

conversation. Oh, okay. Which is creepy.

00:27:39

>> That's very creepy.

00:27:40

>> And that was the last time anybody saw

00:27:42

the four girls alive. So, according to

00:27:46

the owner of the I Can't Believe It's

00:27:48

Yogurt, Eliza was a stickler for the

00:27:50

rule. She followed company procedure,

00:27:53

everything to a tea whenever she was in

00:27:55

charge, and she was that night.

00:27:57

>> Okay.

00:27:57

>> So, that meant investigators could be

00:27:58

pretty certain that they closed the

00:28:00

store at exactly 11:00 at night,

00:28:02

obviously.

00:28:03

>> Yeah.

00:28:03

>> And started the cleaning checklist as

00:28:05

soon as they locked that door.

00:28:06

>> Okay. When police were able to access

00:28:08

the scene, the front door was still

00:28:10

locked and the sign had been flipped to

00:28:11

close. So, that supported that. The

00:28:13

morning after the murders though, the

00:28:15

owner looked over the scene in the

00:28:16

dining room, and based on how everything

00:28:18

looked, she was able to tell

00:28:19

investigators how far along in the

00:28:21

cleaning process the girls had gotten

00:28:23

when they were interrupted, which is

00:28:25

like pretty vital information.

00:28:27

>> Uh, gives you a timeline.

00:28:29

>> Exactly. Jennifer had started emptying

00:28:31

and cleaning the first yogurt machine,

00:28:32

it seemed, while Eliza was wiping down

00:28:35

the counter and like the other surfaces.

00:28:37

The register was open and the sales tape

00:28:39

had been printed. But the cash drawer

00:28:41

had been removed and was later found in

00:28:43

the storage room lying beside Amy's

00:28:46

body,

00:28:46

>> which I guess you can assume that

00:28:48

whatever cash was left in there maybe,

00:28:50

>> yeah,

00:28:51

>> was taken by the robbers if they took

00:28:53

any cash at all. Nobody even know.

00:28:55

>> That's a thing cuz you don't really

00:28:56

know. But given how everything looked in

00:28:58

the store, the manager estimated that

00:29:00

the girls were about 10 or 15 minutes

00:29:02

into the closing routine when they were

00:29:03

interrupted.

00:29:04

>> Oh man.

00:29:05

>> And since investigators knew that the

00:29:06

fire was called in around 11:45, that

00:29:09

meant that whatever happened in the

00:29:11

store that night, it happened in the

00:29:12

span of about a half hour. Wow. Which

00:29:15

that means one or two people were able

00:29:19

to kill and sexually assault three out

00:29:23

of four teenage girls and kill all four

00:29:25

of them. In in how long?

00:29:28

>> Half an hour.

00:29:29

>> Half an hour. Holy.

00:29:30

>> Which [ __ ] I do feel like supports the

00:29:32

theory. And again, this is solved, so

00:29:34

like we'll find out. But I feel like

00:29:36

it's partially solved because to me,

00:29:39

>> it supports the

00:29:39

>> two people had to be doing this.

00:29:41

>> I can see that.

00:29:42

>> You know what I mean? I mean, one person

00:29:44

could have done this obviously. Like if

00:29:46

it's a big guy with a gun like

00:29:48

>> and if it's somebody that is like

00:29:50

>> possibly you know

00:29:52

>> on something

00:29:54

>> you know that can also make people act a

00:29:57

little more like

00:29:59

>> superhuman that we can register.

00:30:01

>> Yep. That's true.

00:30:02

>> You know

00:30:02

>> I don't know why to me it just says two

00:30:04

people but I think it's the two

00:30:07

>> um the two guns being used is a little

00:30:10

bit weird but I mean

00:30:11

>> one person can have two guns.

00:30:12

>> Yeah absolutely can. But anyway, before

00:30:14

we get to who this is, a few days later,

00:30:17

after everything was kind of established

00:30:18

as far as they could get it, Austin

00:30:20

police called their first press

00:30:21

conference to discuss any progress on

00:30:23

the case, which there wasn't a ton of

00:30:24

progress made. They were reluctant to

00:30:27

reveal too much information. Obviously,

00:30:29

like you want to keep things close to

00:30:30

the chest, but they reiterated the

00:30:32

theory that the primary motive for the

00:30:34

crime was robbery. Lieutenant Andrew

00:30:36

Waters said, "We're still operating

00:30:37

under the theory that the probable

00:30:39

motive is robbery. As far as suspects,

00:30:41

we have not developed any specific

00:30:42

suspects.

00:30:44

That said, Waters did announce that the

00:30:46

evidence strongly indicated, like I was

00:30:48

just saying, that there were at least

00:30:49

two killers in the store that night. And

00:30:51

he said one of the killers has a

00:30:53

dominant personality and led one or more

00:30:56

reluctant people to participate in the

00:30:57

crime.

00:30:58

>> Interesting.

00:30:59

>> I don't really know why you would

00:31:00

describe one of them as reluctant.

00:31:02

>> That's the thing. I'm like, you don't

00:31:03

know

00:31:03

>> where you getting that? Like I think

00:31:05

it's because they're describing one as

00:31:07

so dominant that they assume there has

00:31:08

to be this like very submissive

00:31:10

personality with him and it's like

00:31:12

>> right

00:31:12

>> or you could just have two terrible

00:31:14

people, two like really [ __ ] up people

00:31:16

>> who are as into being terrible people as

00:31:19

the next one.

00:31:19

>> It's like the case you just told. Those

00:31:21

were two pretty terrible [ __ ] people.

00:31:23

>> Yeah. The Onion Fields case. Like that's

00:31:24

the thing.

00:31:25

>> Exactly. So Lieutenant Waters admitted

00:31:28

that they really didn't have any strong

00:31:30

leads and the evidence that they had was

00:31:32

sparse. Years later though, the press

00:31:34

would learn that detectives had held

00:31:36

back obviously critical information from

00:31:38

the public and most of which was related

00:31:40

to the evidence of sexual assault.

00:31:43

>> They were just doing what they were told

00:31:45

at that point in time. And I also think

00:31:46

trying to maintain a sense of decency

00:31:48

for these four girls.

00:31:49

>> Yeah.

00:31:50

>> It was 1991 in Austin, Texas. Nobody

00:31:52

wanted to say to the public that three

00:31:54

out of four murdered teen girls had also

00:31:57

been assaulted.

00:31:57

>> Yeah. Cuz that's awful. That's

00:31:59

unimaginable.

00:32:00

>> Yeah. It's awful. It's unimaginable.

00:32:02

their fam. I don't even think their

00:32:03

families were told. I I remember when I

00:32:05

watched the documentary, I don't think

00:32:07

they were told that.

00:32:07

>> Oh man.

00:32:08

>> Uh but at the same time, some of the

00:32:11

information withheld was also probably

00:32:12

held back so that they could use it to

00:32:14

narrow down suspects. So you can see

00:32:17

like maybe it was this, maybe it was

00:32:18

that, or maybe it was a combination.

00:32:20

>> Regardless of their reasons though,

00:32:22

withholding the information made the

00:32:24

public's belief and like the

00:32:26

investigator's belief that this was all

00:32:27

a robbery gone wrong seem likely.

00:32:30

>> Yeah. But if the public had been privy

00:32:32

to all the information, the case would

00:32:34

have looked a lot more like a sex crime

00:32:35

than a robbery.

00:32:36

>> Yeah.

00:32:37

>> So, there's a lot going on here.

00:32:39

>> There is. It's going in like a hundred

00:32:41

different directions, it feels.

00:32:42

>> Yeah. So, after two weeks of almost no

00:32:45

updates from investigators, another

00:32:47

press conference was called a few days

00:32:48

before Christmas to update the public

00:32:50

about the status. The week before, a

00:32:52

teenage girl had actually confessed that

00:32:54

she and her boyfriend committed the

00:32:56

murders.

00:32:57

>> What? But detectives really quickly

00:32:59

realized that she was giving a false

00:33:00

confession when she had absolutely no

00:33:03

knowledge of the details of the murder.

00:33:06

>> How

00:33:08

disturbing.

00:33:09

>> How disturbing.

00:33:11

>> That's unthinkable. I'm like, why?

00:33:14

>> Why would you want to take credit for

00:33:15

that?

00:33:17

>> You should probably be locked up just

00:33:18

for that because if you're admitting to

00:33:20

something like that, you're probably

00:33:22

going to do some [ __ ] up [ __ ] in the

00:33:23

future.

00:33:38

Jon Jones told a reporter, "Confessions

00:33:40

sound good, but that's not the standard

00:33:42

by which the charges are filed. The

00:33:44

killers have to tell us certain things

00:33:45

that only the killers would know." That

00:33:47

didn't happen in this case. They started

00:33:49

telling us stuff that just wasn't true.

00:33:51

Now, I want everybody to remember the

00:33:53

first part of that statement.

00:33:54

Confessions sound good, but that's not

00:33:56

the standard by which charges are filed.

00:33:59

Everyone, just tuck that away in your

00:34:00

brain.

00:34:00

>> I'm tucking it.

00:34:02

>> Okay, so the two teenagers who confessed

00:34:04

were among 25 suspects that

00:34:06

investigators interviewed since the

00:34:07

murders, but all 25 of those suspects

00:34:10

turned out to be dead ends. Aside from a

00:34:13

flurry of activity right after the

00:34:15

killings, the case really failed to take

00:34:17

off in any meaningful direction.

00:34:19

>> This must have been so infuriating.

00:34:22

>> Four Exactly. Four families here are

00:34:24

affected by this. And some of these

00:34:26

families have like these girls had

00:34:29

siblings and these siblings are just

00:34:30

going on wondering what happened to

00:34:32

their older or younger sister.

00:34:34

>> They're having to move forward in life,

00:34:35

parenting, being a kid,

00:34:37

>> not having any idea what happened.

00:34:39

>> Well, and it's like what if you're a kid

00:34:41

when this happens to you? You're just

00:34:43

never a kid again.

00:34:44

>> Yeah.

00:34:44

>> Like that innocence is stripped away

00:34:46

from you.

00:34:46

>> And you're probably worried. You don't

00:34:48

know who did this. So they're out there.

00:34:50

>> Yeah. Everybody's on edge. And then

00:34:51

you're probably wondering, was our

00:34:53

family targeted? Are they going to come

00:34:54

for me?

00:34:55

>> Exactly.

00:34:56

>> So Andrew Waters said, "We have a few

00:34:58

leads, but I wouldn't call any of them

00:35:00

strong. We're not too optimistic." Which

00:35:02

I can't imagine hearing. One, as the

00:35:04

public, I'd be like, and two, like we

00:35:07

just said, as the families, like there's

00:35:09

nothing you have

00:35:10

>> to hear, we're not optim that would

00:35:12

shatter me.

00:35:12

>> Yeah, we're not optimistic. It's awful.

00:35:15

A week later, when reporters contacted

00:35:17

Jon Jones for an update on the case, uh,

00:35:19

as the end of the year was now

00:35:21

approaching, Jones replied, "It ain't

00:35:22

looking good. The light at the end of

00:35:24

the tunnel, it's the headlights of a

00:35:26

train. 1991's been a bad year. A real

00:35:29

bad year."

00:35:30

>> Oh man.

00:35:30

>> Yeah. So, by March of 1992, now the

00:35:34

Austin community was continuing to show

00:35:36

their support for the victim's families.

00:35:38

One thing about this case, and I really

00:35:39

highly suggest the documentary that's on

00:35:41

HBO about it, it shows the community

00:35:44

that really came together at this point

00:35:46

in time.

00:35:47

>> Everybody was keeping the girls memories

00:35:49

alive with posters, banners, buttons,

00:35:52

t-shirts. There were companies that were

00:35:54

put like pouring money into the reward.

00:35:58

I think Bryce Foods was offering a

00:36:01

$25,000 reward and uh the owners of I

00:36:04

Can't Believe It's Yogurt also

00:36:06

contributed to that, too.

00:36:08

>> And then on local radio stations, they

00:36:10

would play um the benefit single called

00:36:13

We Will Not Forget, which a ton of

00:36:15

people in the community and the victim's

00:36:17

families got together to record.

00:36:19

>> Oh, stop.

00:36:20

>> About what happened to these girls and

00:36:22

who they were. It will make you cry when

00:36:24

you hear it. I was going to say,

00:36:27

>> but everybody did really support each

00:36:29

other. It was awesome.

00:36:30

>> So, despite the city's determination to

00:36:32

keep the victim's memories alive and to

00:36:34

deliver justice, the arrival of 1992

00:36:37

brought absolutely nothing but

00:36:38

frustration and deadends for

00:36:40

investigators. By March, the task force,

00:36:43

which was consisting of one clerk, five

00:36:45

detectives, and an ATF agent at that

00:36:48

time, had sifted through more than a

00:36:50

thousand leads and had

00:36:52

>> just that amount of people. just that

00:36:53

amount of people and interviewed

00:36:55

countless witnesses and suspects and

00:36:57

still they were no closer to where they

00:36:59

were when they started.

00:37:01

>> I

00:37:02

This makes me stressed out just thinking

00:37:05

about it because when like you always

00:37:07

think there's got to be some string to

00:37:09

pull and there is always some string to

00:37:11

pull I feel. But when you can't find

00:37:13

that [ __ ] string and you're I can't

00:37:16

imagine just sitting there and hitting

00:37:17

dead end cuz it's not like oh here's

00:37:20

something you're just not going to get

00:37:21

any further than this. you're getting

00:37:23

nothing. Like you're not even taking a

00:37:24

mini little step forward.

00:37:26

>> That's the thing.

00:37:26

>> That would be in [ __ ] infuriating.

00:37:29

>> I think that's the thing too about the

00:37:30

cases from the early '9s is that we

00:37:32

didn't have the technology that we have

00:37:34

today to like

00:37:35

>> make DNA profiles and that kind of

00:37:37

thing. So, it's even maddening to like

00:37:39

however many years later, like what over

00:37:41

30 years later, this gets solved and you

00:37:43

had that evidence from day one, which is

00:37:46

incredible.

00:37:46

>> It was sitting there,

00:37:47

>> but there was nothing they could do with

00:37:49

it.

00:37:49

>> Thank goodness they collected it though.

00:37:50

>> Yeah. Thank goodness they did.

00:37:51

>> There's at least that.

00:37:53

>> And just like just the way that this

00:37:56

crime scene, like everything happened at

00:37:58

this crime scene, it's awful because

00:38:01

>> that honestly that could have been

00:38:02

missing, too.

00:38:03

>> Absolutely.

00:38:04

>> But just the fact that they had that is

00:38:05

remarkable.

00:38:06

>> It was so destroyed

00:38:08

>> in a way.

00:38:09

>> So, the best leads investigators had

00:38:10

were descriptions of those two hooded

00:38:12

individuals seen in the store um and a a

00:38:15

composite sketch of a person of interest

00:38:17

that was seen in and around the parking

00:38:18

lot of the store that night. But it's

00:38:20

like two hooded individ.

00:38:23

>> I was going to say that could literally

00:38:25

be anybody.

00:38:26

>> Yeah. But then the sketch of the random

00:38:28

individual like being a creep led

00:38:30

investigators to a recently arrested

00:38:31

serial killer who we haven't talked

00:38:33

about. Uh Kenneth McDuff. He was

00:38:35

awaiting trial for the murder of several

00:38:38

young women in Mlennon County, Texas,

00:38:40

not too far from Austin.

00:38:41

>> Yeah, we haven't covered him.

00:38:42

>> No, we haven't. Um but unfortunately he

00:38:45

had an alibi for the night of the

00:38:46

murders that checked out and he was

00:38:48

ruled out. But he was found guilty of

00:38:50

the murders that he had been charged

00:38:51

with before and he was actually executed

00:38:53

in 1998. So

00:38:55

>> damn,

00:38:55

>> we'll look into that.

00:38:57

>> See you later. Goodbye.

00:38:58

>> Yeah. So later that year in

00:39:00

mid-occtober, police in Mexico suddenly

00:39:02

arrested 23-year-old

00:39:05

I'm going to do my best with these. I

00:39:07

looked them up, but just bear with me.

00:39:09

Uh Pfiio Savra

00:39:12

and 22-year-old Alberto Cortez. They

00:39:15

were arrested on charges of drug

00:39:17

trafficking and arm smuggling. During

00:39:19

their interrogation, both confessed to

00:39:22

the murders of the four teenagers in

00:39:24

Austin.

00:39:24

>> Why is everyone confessing to this?

00:39:27

>> I mean interrogation.

00:39:28

>> Yeah. I was like, well, my own question.

00:39:30

I was like, wait a minute. They're in

00:39:31

interrogation.

00:39:32

>> I don't know about I'm I'm actually very

00:39:35

unclear about what happened with the

00:39:36

teenagers. They were people of interest,

00:39:38

so who knows?

00:39:39

>> Yeah. Who knows how that was happening.

00:39:41

There was one specific investigator that

00:39:43

actually got taken off this case for not

00:39:45

using great interrogation tactics.

00:39:47

>> Well, I guess that answered my question.

00:39:49

>> Yeah. So, that could have that could

00:39:50

have definitely

00:39:51

>> that could have played into it.

00:39:52

>> Yeah. So, these arrests came as a

00:39:54

surprise to everybody in Texas,

00:39:56

especially the investigators. Actually,

00:39:58

they were convinced that the killer was

00:40:00

familiar with the area and lived nearby.

00:40:02

>> Yeah. And while the arrest usually might

00:40:04

have come as a relief to everybody in

00:40:05

Austin, especially you would think the

00:40:07

victims of the families, not a lot of

00:40:09

people seemed convinced of the

00:40:11

authenticity of these confessions.

00:40:12

>> That might even be worse than happening.

00:40:15

>> I think I think it's so much worse

00:40:16

>> cuz it's like a it's a weird false hope,

00:40:19

but then you you feel like you're being

00:40:20

duped a little.

00:40:21

>> I think you said it perfectly, false

00:40:23

hope, cuz you there's a little piece of

00:40:25

you, I'm sure, that gets that feeling in

00:40:28

your stomach like, "Oh, this could be

00:40:29

it." And then you're like,

00:40:31

>> you're like, but I know it's not.

00:40:33

>> I know it's not exactly. Jennifer and

00:40:35

Sarah's mother, Barbara, told a

00:40:37

reporter, "I don't feel justice. I'm not

00:40:39

happy. I'm not thrilled. I'm not

00:40:40

anything. All I know is that someone had

00:40:43

confessed to something that is so

00:40:44

horrible."

00:40:45

>> Cuz that that is the other thing.

00:40:47

>> Mhm.

00:40:48

>> That I can't really fathom is like once

00:40:51

somebody is caught for this.

00:40:53

>> Yes. I'm sure you feel I I can imagine

00:40:56

that you feel some sort of relief that

00:40:58

justice is is moving forward at the very

00:41:01

least

00:41:01

>> even if it's just like the smallest

00:41:03

tiniest feeling.

00:41:04

>> Yeah. But at the you don't think about

00:41:06

the fact that these families probably

00:41:07

also feel this strange like Yeah. I like

00:41:12

[ __ ] this guy. You know what I Like like

00:41:14

I don't Okay, so we caught him and he

00:41:16

did this awful thing. Like it must be

00:41:19

such a weird I can't describe it

00:41:21

correctly, but like a weird dichotomy of

00:41:23

feelings that

00:41:24

>> cuz it must be like

00:41:25

>> I guess I want to know this guy.

00:41:27

>> I don't want to know this guy. And so

00:41:28

like we're all done here, I guess. How

00:41:31

do you just go how do you go about your

00:41:32

life with it being unsolved? But then

00:41:34

how do you go about your life when it is

00:41:36

solved and you just know this person who

00:41:38

took your baby away from you? Well, not

00:41:40

and it's like I would picture no matter

00:41:43

what somebody who hurt my child in my

00:41:45

head would become this [ __ ] just

00:41:49

crouched over like fireb breathing

00:41:52

monster like you know what I mean? Like

00:41:53

you just think of the worst kind of

00:41:54

goblin in your head and then when you

00:41:56

see this person

00:41:58

>> who did it must be this like

00:42:01

>> so that that's just the guy who did

00:42:03

that. Like you're just like what the

00:42:04

[ __ ] Like it must be such a weird

00:42:07

>> cuz no matter what you're going to think

00:42:08

of this person as a [ __ ] monster and

00:42:10

they are

00:42:11

>> but they're going to look

00:42:13

>> like a human and that must be a weird

00:42:15

thing to reconcile in your own brain.

00:42:17

>> And then on top of that you just know

00:42:19

that they get to even if they're in

00:42:21

prison,

00:42:22

>> they're living. They get to see the sun.

00:42:24

They get to eat a meal. They get to play

00:42:26

a card game maybe in prison. Like they

00:42:28

just get to go about

00:42:30

>> life to some degree and your child

00:42:32

doesn't. like I you would want to

00:42:33

[ __ ] destroy that person and you're

00:42:35

not able to.

00:42:36

>> I can't imagine it.

00:42:37

>> It's my heart goes out to all these

00:42:39

families. But

00:42:40

>> according to Mexican uh deputy attorney

00:42:43

general Jose Louie Romero Ais uh Sandra

00:42:48

was the primary aggressor and Cortez was

00:42:50

his accomplice which did kind of line up

00:42:52

with the theory

00:42:53

>> what they were saying.

00:42:54

>> One very determined person, one very

00:42:56

possibly reluctant person. He said, uh,

00:42:58

the Mexican deputy attorney general said

00:43:01

he forced the young girls to submit.

00:43:03

This is a lot, sorry. Then he raped

00:43:04

them, tied them up, and shot them once

00:43:07

they were dead. He said the two men cut

00:43:09

up their bodies before setting fire to

00:43:11

the store,

00:43:13

>> which I was like, wrong. Where does it

00:43:16

say that?

00:43:16

>> No, they didn't. But although Mexico uh

00:43:18

typically doesn't extradite Mexican

00:43:20

nationalists to or national sorry to

00:43:23

foreign countries, Mexican law does

00:43:25

allow for Mexicans to be tried for

00:43:27

crimes committed outside of the country

00:43:29

while they're still in the country,

00:43:30

which is interesting.

00:43:31

>> Yeah.

00:43:32

>> Um but they made it clear to the the

00:43:34

American press that they intended to

00:43:36

pursue charges on behalf of Texas. Okay.

00:43:38

Which is pretty cool.

00:43:39

>> Yeah. So, while the families of the

00:43:40

victims remained pretty ambivalent about

00:43:43

the arrest and the announcement of the

00:43:44

charges, investigators were unimpressed

00:43:47

at best. Not only was it unclear why

00:43:50

these men had confessed to such a

00:43:52

heinous crime when they were only

00:43:53

arrested on like pretty [ __ ] up

00:43:56

charges, but nothing that crazy.

00:43:57

>> Much lesser than that.

00:43:58

>> Yeah, like drugs and guns. But they also

00:44:01

seem to have almost no familiarity with

00:44:03

the case or the details of the murders.

00:44:06

>> I mean, that feels like a pretty red

00:44:07

flag. The biggest deal being he said

00:44:09

they cut up the b the bodies weren't cut

00:44:12

up.

00:44:12

>> Yeah.

00:44:13

>> Also, according to the Mexican attorney

00:44:16

general there, uh, Severra had been an

00:44:18

employee of the yogurt shop at one time

00:44:20

in the past, but a quick check of the

00:44:23

employment records found no record of

00:44:25

either man having worked for them.

00:44:27

>> Oh, yeah. This is getting quickly

00:44:29

falling apart at the seams.

00:44:30

>> Yeah. And further complicating matters

00:44:32

was the fact that authorities in Mexico

00:44:34

were also refusing to allow Austin

00:44:36

investigators to even speak with the

00:44:38

suspects. So there was no way to get an

00:44:41

impression of what they did and didn't

00:44:42

know firsthand. What the hell? Now, to

00:44:45

the surprise of virtually no one

00:44:46

involved, the two suspects ultimately

00:44:48

recanted their confessions just a few

00:44:50

days later.

00:44:50

>> I wonder why.

00:44:51

>> And they said they'd been beaten by

00:44:52

police in Mexico and forced to confess.

00:44:55

>> I don't know what happened. Just saying

00:44:56

that that's what they said. But okay,

00:44:59

now the short-lived excitement question

00:45:01

mark. I don't even know if anybody was

00:45:03

necessarily excited. I think it was just

00:45:05

Yeah. hope. Uh it was all very

00:45:07

short-lived. And it proved to be the

00:45:10

last piece of significant news in the

00:45:12

yogurt shop murders for more than seven

00:45:14

years.

00:45:15

>> Wow.

00:45:16

>> So that big huge thing happened where

00:45:18

they're like, "We have these two

00:45:19

suspects. They know everything. They

00:45:21

even know more than we know." And

00:45:22

>> then it just falls apart.

00:45:24

>> No, they don't.

00:45:24

>> And then it's just like that's it. And

00:45:26

then seven years goes by. Then years

00:45:29

later, much to everybody's surprise,

00:45:31

Austin police chief Stan Kne called a

00:45:34

press conference to announce that three

00:45:36

men had been arrested for the murders

00:45:38

based largely on confessions that they

00:45:40

gave to the police when they were first

00:45:42

interviewed 8 years earlier. Oh, which

00:45:45

is interesting because 8 years earlier

00:45:48

the police were saying they had

00:45:49

absolutely nothing and had ruled

00:45:50

everybody out.

00:45:51

>> I was going to say, where was that?

00:45:53

Well, according to NE, the arrests were

00:45:54

the result of a new initiative launched

00:45:56

a year earlier where detectives were

00:45:58

re-examining old leads, you know, trying

00:46:00

to get somewhere, including the many

00:46:02

confessions received at the time. So,

00:46:04

the story of how the arrests came to be

00:46:06

started just 8 days after the murders

00:46:08

were committed, like way back seven

00:46:10

years or 8 years earlier, when police

00:46:12

arrested 16-year-old Maurice Pierce, who

00:46:14

was reportedly walking around the North

00:46:17

Cross Mall a few blocks away from the

00:46:18

yogurt shop carrying a 22 caliber

00:46:21

pistol.

00:46:22

>> Oh. which I don't know if you remember

00:46:24

was one of the guns that was used in the

00:46:26

murders.

00:46:27

>> At the time, Pierce was in the company

00:46:28

of his friend, 15-year-old Forest

00:46:30

Welbborne, who was also arrested at that

00:46:33

time.

00:46:34

>> When they were interviewed at the

00:46:35

station, they claimed that on the night

00:46:36

of the murders, they were with two other

00:46:38

friends, Rob Springsteen and his

00:46:40

roommate Mike Scott, who were both 17

00:46:42

years old. Now, during their interviews

00:46:44

with Pierce and Wellbourne, Maurice

00:46:46

Pierce supposedly told the police that

00:46:49

the gun that he had in his possession

00:46:51

had been used in the yogurt shop murders

00:46:53

and but that I think he had said

00:46:55

originally like it wasn't his gun. It

00:46:57

was like a community gun.

00:46:59

>> A community gun?

00:47:00

>> Yeah. There was like parties that were

00:47:02

held in like a creek behind the yogurt

00:47:04

shop and they would stash the gun there.

00:47:05

>> They just shared it.

00:47:06

>> They pretty much is what they were

00:47:08

saying. Okay. And he said, "I do know

00:47:10

this was used in the yogurt shop

00:47:12

murders, but I didn't commit them."

00:47:14

>> Okay. He's like, "Yeah, absolutely. That

00:47:16

was used, but not mine."

00:47:17

>> If you happen to, you know,

00:47:19

>> just in case

00:47:19

>> link these up, that wasn't me.

00:47:21

>> That it belongs to everybody.

00:47:23

>> So that was weird. This that this gun

00:47:25

belonged to everybody. But after

00:47:27

speaking with both boys for several

00:47:29

hours, they concluded that Pierce had

00:47:30

made up the story and let both of them

00:47:32

go.

00:47:33

>> Wow. The next day when Pierce was asked

00:47:35

about the claim for a second time, he

00:47:37

admitted he was lying when he said that

00:47:38

gun had been used in the murder.

00:47:39

>> Guys, stop lying about that to police.

00:47:42

But again, remember,

00:47:44

>> there was some weird tactics going on.

00:47:46

>> Stuff going on.

00:47:47

>> Yeah.

00:47:48

>> I really again recommend the documentary

00:47:49

cuz they go super far into it.

00:47:52

>> We got to be careful with what we say,

00:47:53

you know.

00:47:54

>> Yeah. Allegedly.

00:47:55

>> I'm not HBO.

00:47:56

>> We're not home box office.

00:47:59

>> Yeah, you got to throw in allegedly.

00:48:01

>> Allegedly. So, at the time, detectives

00:48:04

took Pierce at his word. He was just a

00:48:05

kid who didn't really seem to understand

00:48:07

the gravity of the situation that, you

00:48:09

know, he was in and was just messing

00:48:10

around.

00:48:11

>> Wow.

00:48:12

>> Yeah. It's a lot. But 8 years later,

00:48:14

desperate for new leads, investigators,

00:48:16

who were also working under a new chief

00:48:18

of police.

00:48:19

>> Oh. Went back to the original case file

00:48:21

and looked over those confessions. And

00:48:23

that's when the interviews with Maurice

00:48:25

Pierce and Forest Well, started to jump

00:48:27

out at them. M

00:48:28

>> according to the investigator's notes on

00:48:30

the interview, they strongly suspected

00:48:32

the teenagers, particularly Rob uh Rob

00:48:35

Springsteen and Mike Scott, were

00:48:36

withholding critical information.

00:48:39

So the new members of the task force

00:48:41

tracked all of these guys down who they

00:48:43

were now adults at this time in 1999 to

00:48:46

reinter them about that night. So this

00:48:49

time around, detectives interviewed Rob

00:48:51

Springsteen and Mike Scott several more

00:48:53

times, including one interrogation that

00:48:56

lasted almost 18 hours. Holy [ __ ] I

00:49:00

want everybody to like imagine the last

00:49:02

18 hours of their life.

00:49:03

>> I was just going to say this is one of

00:49:04

those situations where you really do

00:49:06

need a basis of comparison.

00:49:08

>> Yeah. You got to sit down for a sec. So

00:49:10

18 hours ago for us, what's it? It's

00:49:12

4:00 right now.

00:49:13

>> Yeah.

00:49:14

>> So what's that? 12 hours ago it was 4:00

00:49:17

in the morning, right?

00:49:18

>> Mhm.

00:49:19

>> And then add four more hours to that. 4

00:49:21

3 2 1 11. I was getting ready for bed.

00:49:24

>> Yeah.

00:49:25

>> Last night 18 hours ago, and it's

00:49:27

literally almost dinner time now.

00:49:29

>> You'd just be, you know, finishing up

00:49:32

your interrogation right now.

00:49:33

>> Yeah. So you would be literally for the

00:49:36

entirety that I was brushing my teeth,

00:49:39

doing my skin care routine, scrolling on

00:49:41

TikTok in my bed, sleeping for like six

00:49:44

hours, went to her exercise class this

00:49:46

morning, got home, showered, drove to

00:49:49

work, ate breakfast, did some [ __ ] at

00:49:52

work. Like I did a million things in 18

00:49:54

hours

00:49:54

>> and we're getting ready to like end the

00:49:56

day.

00:49:56

>> Yeah.

00:49:57

>> And it's all of that time would have

00:49:59

been

00:49:59

>> interrogation

00:50:00

>> in an interrogation room. Yeah.

00:50:02

>> Just just sit with that. Yeah.

00:50:04

>> So, finally, after being repeatedly

00:50:06

pressed by police during those 18 hours,

00:50:08

and that was just one of the

00:50:09

interrogations, there was multiple like

00:50:11

couple days worth. Finally, Mike Scott

00:50:14

broke down and confessed to the murders.

00:50:17

>> That one I can see.

00:50:18

>> It's very Jesse Miss Kelly.

00:50:20

>> It was giving me these vibes.

00:50:22

>> Yeah. Uh, if you don't know that, the

00:50:24

West Memphis 3 case, we covered it. Go

00:50:26

back. I think we did it in like three

00:50:28

parts.

00:50:28

>> Yeah, I think so.

00:50:29

>> It has a very similar heir to this case,

00:50:31

actually.

00:50:31

>> Yeah. So, according to Scott, the four

00:50:33

boys had been hanging out in the food

00:50:35

court at Northcross Mall on the night of

00:50:37

December 6th, 1991 when Maurice Pierce

00:50:39

said something about how he needed

00:50:41

money. He told the detectives, "I don't

00:50:44

remember the specifics about what was

00:50:45

brought up, but Maurice and Rob talked

00:50:47

about robbing a place." He said they all

00:50:49

left the mall. They drove around for a

00:50:51

little bit looking for a place to rob.

00:50:53

And that's when they spotted the I can't

00:50:54

believe it's yogurt shop. They went

00:50:56

inside. They ordered some yogurt. Nobody

00:50:59

saw them in there that night, by the

00:51:00

way.

00:51:01

>> Oh. then casually cased the store

00:51:04

looking for entrances and exits before

00:51:06

leaving and returning to the mall.

00:51:08

>> Okay. Later that night, just before the

00:51:10

shop was set to close, they all four of

00:51:13

them returned to the store. According to

00:51:15

Scott, Forest Wellorn uh waited in the

00:51:17

car as a lookout while the other three

00:51:19

gained entry through the back door,

00:51:21

which was slightly a jar. He said one of

00:51:23

the girls said something like, "Hey,

00:51:25

what are you doing here? You don't

00:51:26

belong here." And that's when Maurice

00:51:28

pulled out his gun. Okay.

00:51:29

>> It's very

00:51:31

>> It It feels very like a script you would

00:51:34

see, you know, hey, you what are you

00:51:36

doing? You don't you don't belong here.

00:51:38

>> That doesn't sound like a teenage girl.

00:51:40

>> I don't think so. So that's when Maurice

00:51:42

pulled out his gun. Mike watched the

00:51:44

back door and Maurice went to the cash

00:51:46

register, demanded it be opened. When he

00:51:48

saw there was no money in the drawer, he

00:51:50

became I rate because which actually

00:51:52

would have made sense.

00:51:53

>> Absolutely.

00:51:53

>> Because remember the money had already

00:51:54

been transferred into the deposit box.

00:51:57

He became my rate and yelled, "Where the

00:51:58

[ __ ] is the rest of the money?" But the

00:52:00

girls explained it had already been

00:52:01

dropped in the safe for the night. And

00:52:03

that was that.

00:52:04

>> Yeah.

00:52:05

>> A few minutes later, that was that for

00:52:06

the money. I mean, a few minutes later,

00:52:08

Pierce called out for Scott to come help

00:52:10

him, Michael Scott. And when he got to

00:52:12

the back of the store, Michael Scott saw

00:52:14

that all four girls had been stripped

00:52:16

nude and were tied up. So, we're to

00:52:18

believe that Maurice Pierce pretty much

00:52:20

did that entire part alone.

00:52:22

>> Mhm. He said, "I believe this is the way

00:52:24

it was because I don't remember pulling

00:52:26

their clothes off."

00:52:28

>> Feel like that's something you would

00:52:29

remember.

00:52:29

>> Yeah. As Pierce was yelling at them

00:52:32

demanding money, the gun just went off.

00:52:35

>> Oh, the classic

00:52:36

>> killing one of the girls, which I need

00:52:38

you to remember, these girls were killed

00:52:39

execution style.

00:52:40

>> Yes. But it accident doesn't make sense.

00:52:42

>> Just went off.

00:52:44

>> Yeah. Then

00:52:44

>> then whenever you hear that in the

00:52:45

story, question.

00:52:46

>> Yeah. Big question marks. Then Scott

00:52:49

said he heard a second shot and then a

00:52:51

third. Frightened, he ran to the other

00:52:53

side of the store where he said he

00:52:55

found, and this is explicit, he said he

00:52:57

found Rob Springsteen sexually

00:52:59

assaulting Sarah Harbison. He said, "I

00:53:01

told Rob that wasn't that wasn't right.

00:53:03

That's not what he came for." And at

00:53:05

that point, he stopped.

00:53:06

>> Okay. None of this is very believable in

00:53:09

my opinion.

00:53:10

>> Very believable. And I know that we know

00:53:12

the end result here.

00:53:13

>> So obviously that's influencing us a

00:53:15

bit.

00:53:15

>> Yeah. It's a little bit of confirmation

00:53:17

bias. I I will admit that. But looking

00:53:20

at it now, I'm like, "This doesn't sound

00:53:22

believable." Oh, like even if I didn't

00:53:24

know what the end result was.

00:53:25

>> It's like some of the details fit very

00:53:27

perfectly.

00:53:28

>> Yeah, like the cash register not being

00:53:29

full. But

00:53:31

>> but then like you were saying, a lot of

00:53:33

it sounds scripted. And it's I think

00:53:35

I've also now that we've mentioned the

00:53:38

West Memphis 3 case in that case

00:53:42

allegedly

00:53:43

pieces of information were fed to kind

00:53:47

of fit

00:53:48

>> according to that cash register who we

00:53:51

are talking about a very similar thing

00:53:52

>> happened that cash register information

00:53:55

could have been fed. I'm not saying it

00:53:57

was I'm just saying like I'm hypo I'm

00:53:59

I'm theorizing here. I'm being

00:54:01

hypothetical.

00:54:01

>> We're alleging. I'm alleging so hard.

00:54:04

I'm alleging.

00:54:04

>> Alleged.

00:54:05

>> I have a force field of a ledge around

00:54:08

me.

00:54:08

>> That's iconic.

00:54:10

>> Yeah.

00:54:10

>> So, back to the story. It's very bleak.

00:54:13

Once all four girls had been shot, PICE

00:54:15

demanded that Michael Scott retrieve a

00:54:17

can of Zippo lighter fluid

00:54:19

>> from the car and spray it around the

00:54:21

store. Michael Scott said he did as he

00:54:24

was told and then he lit the accelerant

00:54:26

with his lighter. Remember, there was no

00:54:29

smell of lighter fluid at the scene.

00:54:31

Interesting.

00:54:33

>> According to Scott, he didn't know what

00:54:34

he did with the can of lighter fluid. He

00:54:36

said, "I could have thrown I could have

00:54:38

threw it on the pile of stuff in the

00:54:39

back of the store." But either way, once

00:54:41

the fire had been set, they fled the

00:54:43

scene. They went their separate ways

00:54:45

with Rob Springsteen and Mike Scott

00:54:47

returning to their apartment. That story

00:54:49

also changed later, and I think they

00:54:52

said they all four of them ended up

00:54:53

driving to like New Mexico or something.

00:54:56

>> Wow.

00:54:56

>> Wild. And then it none of it really made

00:54:59

sense. M

00:55:00

>> but when he was confronted with Mike

00:55:01

Scott's confession and after hours and

00:55:03

hours and hours of interrogation, Rob

00:55:07

Springsteen told police a similar story

00:55:09

to Scott.

00:55:12

So, so and again when you think of it

00:55:14

this way like again we have confirmation

00:55:17

bias because we know that it's been

00:55:18

solved now. So that is a thing. But you

00:55:22

think about like being a family member

00:55:24

or like a loved one or something here

00:55:27

after years of nothing and then suddenly

00:55:31

they bring back suspects that they

00:55:32

already looked at

00:55:34

>> and they and they say we were able to

00:55:36

crack them. I wouldn't question it.

00:55:38

>> No way.

00:55:38

>> I would never in a million years

00:55:40

question

00:55:41

>> because it honestly I don't care what

00:55:42

they said. I would be like okay that

00:55:44

makes sense.

00:55:45

>> Well it's like oh you talked to them

00:55:47

originally like and now

00:55:48

>> then they must have been suspicious

00:55:50

>> upon a second look. Okay. Wow. Like

00:55:52

that's very valid that that I'm sure

00:55:54

some of them I don't know. But I'm just

00:55:56

saying like if some of them were sitting

00:55:58

there being I I personally would

00:56:00

probably be like thank goodness this

00:56:02

this makes sense to me.

00:56:03

>> It's interesting when I they interview

00:56:05

some of the family members in the

00:56:07

documentary and some of them were very

00:56:09

like relieved

00:56:10

>> like this is it for

00:56:11

>> and then some of them were not quite so

00:56:13

sure.

00:56:14

>> Yeah. So it really shows you it really

00:56:15

is like a spectrum of how nobody's going

00:56:17

to react the same way. But

00:56:18

>> remember it's four different families

00:56:19

here.

00:56:20

>> Yeah. I I just I I can sit here right

00:56:22

now from my position and be like, "Oh,

00:56:25

well that doesn't make sense. That

00:56:26

sounds unscripted. That how could you

00:56:28

believe that?" And then I think of the

00:56:30

other side of the coin and I would 100%

00:56:32

believe that cuz I would want to.

00:56:33

>> And also remember this is the mid '9s or

00:56:36

late at this point late '9s in Texas.

00:56:38

You still want to believe police.

00:56:40

>> Yeah, of course. And like police are to

00:56:42

be believed in general, but now we have

00:56:44

some more examples of cases like this

00:56:46

that these things happen.

00:56:49

A little bit of a precedent for other

00:56:51

things sometimes.

00:56:52

>> But so Rob Springsteen told a very

00:56:54

similar story and he admitted in his

00:56:57

confession the fact that he had been

00:56:58

carrying a semi-automatic handgun that

00:57:00

fired 380 caliber ammunition, which was

00:57:03

the second kind of ammunition.

00:57:05

So surrounded by a large assembly of

00:57:07

investigators as well as obviously the

00:57:09

families of the victims, Chief Knee told

00:57:11

the crowd of reporters on December 6th,

00:57:13

1991, we as a city lost our innocence.

00:57:16

Today, we can regain our confidence.

00:57:19

After nearly a decade of frustration and

00:57:21

dead ends, the arrest definitely marked

00:57:24

a significant win in what to a lot of

00:57:26

people felt like a case that was just

00:57:27

never going to be solved. Uh Jeff Rusk,

00:57:30

who was a lawyer for all the family,

00:57:31

said, "You have a sense of relief may

00:57:33

finally be served." H. So, the

00:57:35

announcement of the arrest might have

00:57:37

brought some sense of relief, but it

00:57:39

also begged the question, if

00:57:41

investigators had known about the

00:57:42

supposed confession for so long, why did

00:57:45

they then wait 7, 8 years to arrest

00:57:48

these four guys?

00:57:49

>> I mean, that is interesting.

00:57:50

>> That's weird.

00:57:50

>> That would be a question.

00:57:52

>> At the time, investigators were very

00:57:54

tight- lipped about their pursuit of the

00:57:55

four accused, and they didn't share any

00:57:57

information about the evidence that

00:57:58

supported the confessions, which you can

00:58:00

understand. They're in the middle of

00:58:01

trying to get charges,

00:58:03

>> of course. But as far as anybody knew,

00:58:05

there wasn't really a lot of evidence

00:58:07

discovered at the crime scene like we

00:58:09

said. And so much of that had been

00:58:11

corrupted by the efforts to put out the

00:58:12

fire like we also said. So if all the

00:58:14

evidence was so compelling against them,

00:58:17

how was it that none of the previous

00:58:19

investigators had picked up on it? That

00:58:21

would be a question because that's the

00:58:22

thing like you can have these four

00:58:24

suspects and you can say like we're

00:58:26

moving forward and we feel strongly

00:58:27

about it and we have so much evidence

00:58:29

against them but like where did all that

00:58:31

evidence come from if you never really

00:58:33

had much to begin with

00:58:34

>> cuz like which is it right?

00:58:36

>> Did did you not have much to begin with

00:58:38

or did you sit on it

00:58:39

>> exactly? So in fact over the course of

00:58:42

the investigation the predominant theory

00:58:44

remember was that two adult men

00:58:47

committed this crime. Yeah. At the time,

00:58:49

residents were told that the killers

00:58:50

were uh into vampires, the occult, and

00:58:53

graveyard rights, which

00:58:55

>> that that does hearken back to Memphis

00:58:58

3.

00:58:58

>> But also, none of that was true about

00:59:00

the accused back then or at this point.

00:59:04

Back in the day, they were just kind of

00:59:05

like regular like teenagers.

00:59:08

>> Yeah, teenagers. They kind of came from

00:59:09

like a couple of them came from tough

00:59:12

family situations and that kind of

00:59:14

thing, but none of them were like,

00:59:16

>> you know, praying to Satan in their

00:59:18

background.

00:59:18

>> Satanic rituals.

00:59:19

>> Yeah. And in all the witness statements

00:59:21

that described suspicious people in the

00:59:23

area, like I said, no one saw them in

00:59:26

the area that night.

00:59:27

>> And that's a sticky point.

00:59:28

>> And four teenage boys, I'm going to

00:59:31

remember that experience.

00:59:32

>> Yeah.

00:59:33

>> Like I'm going to remember being like,

00:59:34

"Oh yeah, four teenage boys. They were

00:59:35

loud. They were annoying." Yeah,

00:59:37

>> I remember them.

00:59:38

>> I was at a gas station the other night

00:59:39

and there was four teenage boys and I

00:59:40

was like, I'm not going inside. [ __ ]

00:59:41

that.

00:59:42

>> I remember them.

00:59:43

>> And I do I remember them right now. That

00:59:44

was like the other night.

00:59:46

>> So, at the time the murders were

00:59:47

committed, even the oldest among them,

00:59:49

by the way, uh Rob Springsteen and Mike

00:59:51

Scott, wouldn't have been mistaken for

00:59:53

adult men.

00:59:53

>> They look like children.

00:59:55

>> Yeah, they were 17 years old. And on top

00:59:57

of that, none of them looked like the

00:59:58

police sketch that was widely circulated

01:00:00

after the murders occurred either.

01:00:02

>> I mean, these are all sticky points.

01:00:04

>> Yeah. not, you know,

01:00:05

>> not smoking gun.

01:00:06

>> It's all circumstantial, but still.

01:00:09

>> So, while the members of the newly

01:00:10

reformed task force were very

01:00:12

enthusiastic about the arrests, a lot of

01:00:14

people, including some of the families

01:00:16

of the victims, took a more measured

01:00:18

approach. They had been burned before in

01:00:20

this investigation.

01:00:21

>> Yeah, that's smart.

01:00:22

>> Mike Harbison told reporters after the

01:00:24

announcement of the arrests, "We simply

01:00:25

do not have enough information and

01:00:27

haven't gotten our emotions together

01:00:28

enough to make a comment at this point."

01:00:30

>> And you don't have to.

01:00:31

>> And you absolutely don't have to. I hate

01:00:33

when they're like, "What do you want to

01:00:34

say about this?" It's like, "Let them

01:00:35

grieve."

01:00:36

>> These poor people had years and years

01:00:38

and years of reporters just knocking on

01:00:40

their doors consistently.

01:00:41

>> I can't even picture that.

01:00:43

>> Rough. For their part, the families of

01:00:45

the accused were even more skeptical,

01:00:47

which obviously you could expect, but to

01:00:49

the point of completely refusing to

01:00:51

accept this theory.

01:00:52

>> Maurice Pierce's wife, Kimberly, said,

01:00:54

"They don't have the right person. I

01:00:56

know my husband. It's just not within

01:00:58

him to commit murder. He couldn't hurt a

01:01:00

fly."

01:01:01

>> Which is sad. Like you I mean you don't

01:01:03

want to believe that a man you married

01:01:06

seven years earlier murdered four

01:01:07

teenage girls when he was a teenager

01:01:10

himself.

01:01:10

>> Yeah. No.

01:01:11

>> Like that's horrifying.

01:01:12

>> I mean whenever I hear the he couldn't

01:01:14

hurt a fly comment I'm like you should

01:01:16

snip that one off because for some

01:01:17

reason whenever somebody says that it

01:01:20

does backfire sometimes.

01:01:21

>> It doesn't normally go in their favor.

01:01:23

>> Yeah. Well like I mentioned earlier the

01:01:26

skepticism from the public was not

01:01:27

without justification. The

01:01:29

investigation, as we have been talking

01:01:31

about, dragged out for years without a

01:01:33

lot of progress. And in that time, a few

01:01:35

police errors came to light. And one of

01:01:38

the task force members, Hector Palano,

01:01:40

had been kicked off the case amid

01:01:42

allegations that he had coerced a

01:01:44

confession.

01:01:45

>> There it is.

01:01:46

>> And that there were like some not so

01:01:48

great tactics being used on other

01:01:49

confessions.

01:01:50

>> Yeah.

01:01:51

>> And there was also the fact that

01:01:52

everything about the arrest very much

01:01:54

seemed to be too convenient. When the

01:01:56

bodies were first discovered, detectives

01:01:58

were baffled by the crime scene, the

01:02:00

lack of motive, the sheer brutality, the

01:02:02

cruelty. And now all of a sudden, they

01:02:04

made four arrests and all the details

01:02:06

just perfectly fell into place.

01:02:08

Journalist Mike Call remembered, "We had

01:02:10

this kind of poetic closure. Four boys

01:02:13

had killed four girls, but it just

01:02:15

seemed a little bit too poetic."

01:02:16

>> Yeah.

01:02:17

>> In the years since the murders, the

01:02:19

victims had been memorialized in many,

01:02:20

many ways, most of which focused on

01:02:22

their purity and their innocence. So, it

01:02:25

seemed fitting that their accused

01:02:26

killers, who were around the same ages

01:02:28

of the victims at the time, were

01:02:30

discovered to be their exact opposites.

01:02:32

>> Of course, where Jennifer Harbison quote

01:02:34

brought joy into the classroom and Amy

01:02:36

er made good grades and good friends,

01:02:38

Maurice Pierce was described as having

01:02:40

attended a school that served dropouts

01:02:42

and students with discipline problems.

01:02:44

And Mike Scott was described in similar

01:02:46

terms with one reporter saying that he

01:02:49

repeated his sophomore year and dropped

01:02:50

out of Austin schools 12 months after

01:02:52

the killings which they also pointed to

01:02:55

as like a big thing like oh a year later

01:02:56

he dropped out of school. Was it the

01:02:58

trauma of having murdered four girls?

01:03:00

>> Wow.

01:03:01

>> Which it could have been.

01:03:02

>> Absolutely.

01:03:02

>> But also it could have been life.

01:03:03

>> Yeah. I was going to say going on.

01:03:06

>> Yeah. But when you put it together with

01:03:09

this timeline and with what you think is

01:03:11

going on, it begins to confirmation bias

01:03:14

kind of sneaks in there.

01:03:16

>> But again, it's so very similar to the

01:03:18

West Memphis 3 case where it's like

01:03:20

>> you have this case where three young

01:03:22

boys were murdered and then you go after

01:03:24

three

01:03:25

>> teenage boys who are like

01:03:26

>> four girls are murdered.

01:03:29

>> Exactly.

01:03:30

>> It's very interesting. So, in the days

01:03:32

that followed the announcement, each of

01:03:33

the suspects were arraigned on murder

01:03:35

charges. But the picture that emerged of

01:03:37

each of them was not what anybody would

01:03:39

have expected of people who committed

01:03:41

such an atrocity, like horrible,

01:03:44

horrible, violent act.

01:03:46

>> By all accounts, the four suspects were

01:03:47

pretty unremarkable teenagers when the

01:03:50

murders were committed. Like most

01:03:52

teenagers, they spent their time hanging

01:03:53

out at the mall. They drank beer in the

01:03:55

park occasionally, and they fought with

01:03:56

their parents. But nowhere in their

01:03:58

histories was there any indication that

01:04:00

they were capable of committing violent

01:04:03

violent sexual assault.

01:04:04

>> This isn't just like a small thing.

01:04:07

>> This is robbery, rape, murder, and arson

01:04:12

>> times four.

01:04:14

>> So no, there was no clues in any of

01:04:16

their past that they were capable of

01:04:17

this. And actually at the time of their

01:04:19

arrest, everyone who knew them

01:04:21

personally spoke highly of them. Like

01:04:23

there was other people who were like,

01:04:24

"Oh, like they dropped out of school and

01:04:26

they were delinquents and blah blah

01:04:28

blah." But one person said of Michael

01:04:29

Scott, "He's never so much as raised his

01:04:31

voice." And Rob Springsteen's landlord

01:04:33

described him and his wife as super. You

01:04:35

couldn't ask for better renters.

01:04:37

>> Wow. Which again, flipping it on its

01:04:40

head. We hear that [ __ ] all the time

01:04:41

with like brutal, brutal cases that we

01:04:44

cover where the people are guilty.

01:04:46

>> But then in this case, you have to look

01:04:48

at it twice.

01:04:49

>> Yeah. Because you say, "Okay,

01:04:51

>> I can say that about anybody."

01:04:53

>> Exactly.

01:04:54

>> People can be chameleons. Exactly.

01:04:55

>> Or people can just be who they are.

01:04:57

>> So in November, the public finally heard

01:05:00

the details of the arrests and the

01:05:01

confessions when Maurice Pierce and

01:05:03

Forest Wellorn appeared in court for

01:05:06

their hearing to determine if they were

01:05:08

actually going to be certified to stand

01:05:09

trial as adults because they were both

01:05:11

juveniles when the murders were

01:05:12

committed. Mhm.

01:05:14

>> During the hearing, investigators

01:05:15

testified about the state of the crime

01:05:17

scene, the details of the injuries

01:05:19

sustained by the four victims, the

01:05:21

confessions given, first by Maurice

01:05:23

Pierce in 1991 and then by Scott and

01:05:26

Springsteen in 1999. So, at the end of

01:05:29

the hearing, Judge Janine Mure was

01:05:31

pretty convinced that there was probable

01:05:33

cause, and she certified both as adults,

01:05:36

clearing the way for them to be

01:05:37

indicted.

01:05:38

>> Dang. Within a few weeks, three of the

01:05:40

four would be indicted on four counts of

01:05:42

capital murder. But the grand jury

01:05:44

actually declined to indict Forest

01:05:45

Wellborn due to a lack of compelling

01:05:47

evidence.

01:05:48

>> Oh.

01:05:48

>> Because remember, Forest was said to be

01:05:50

the lookout.

01:05:51

>> Okay.

01:05:52

>> Yeah. Like in the car.

01:06:06

So, the arrests and the indictments and

01:06:08

a flurry of activity that followed were

01:06:10

exciting for investigators and gave some

01:06:12

hope to the families that after all

01:06:14

these years, they might get some

01:06:15

justice. But that excitement did not

01:06:18

last very long. In May of 2000, just 5

01:06:21

months after the indictments were handed

01:06:22

down by a grand jury, the Bureau of

01:06:25

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms released

01:06:27

a report finding that after careful

01:06:29

analysis, the gun confiscated from

01:06:32

Maurice Pierce in 1991 was unlikely to

01:06:35

have been the weapon used in the Yogurt

01:06:37

Shop murders.

01:06:38

>> Wow.

01:06:39

Now, since his possession of the gun was

01:06:41

the reason for his arrest in 1991 and

01:06:44

the single thing that pointed

01:06:45

investigators in the direction of these

01:06:47

four men in the first place, this was a

01:06:49

critical blow for the prosecution

01:06:52

>> who literally did not have one shred of

01:06:55

physical evidence tying any of these

01:06:57

four or three at this point to the

01:06:59

murders.

01:07:00

>> Damn. Now, in their confessions, both

01:07:03

Mike and Rob told investigators that

01:07:06

they had vague memories of throwing the

01:07:07

weapons into the Colorado River on the

01:07:09

night of the murders. So, investigators,

01:07:12

as soon as it came out that like Maurice

01:07:14

Pierce's gun wasn't the one, they were

01:07:15

like, "Okay, well, there's other

01:07:17

weapons."

01:07:18

>> So, they immediately started dragging

01:07:19

the river in search of the original

01:07:22

murder weapon. But by that time, 9 years

01:07:24

had passed and at least six floods had

01:07:27

washed out the river. Damn. So the

01:07:28

likelihood of finding anything was very

01:07:30

slim,

01:07:31

>> very low.

01:07:32

>> But the prosecution now seemed

01:07:33

desperate. So they searched anyway.

01:07:36

>> In an expose for Texas Monthly the next

01:07:38

year, journalist Mike Hall wrote, "There

01:07:40

was no more apt symbol of the Austin

01:07:42

Police Department's troubles than images

01:07:44

on the news of cops literally fishing

01:07:46

for clues."

01:07:47

>> That's the thing. I was like, I I would

01:07:50

get it if it felt it felt like it was a

01:07:52

compelling case that had everything you

01:07:54

needed and you just needed this one

01:07:56

thing,

01:07:56

>> a literal smoking gun,

01:07:57

>> and that it was leaning in the direction

01:07:59

of like these are the guys and I just

01:08:02

need this to prove it.

01:08:04

>> Then like going, you know, putting forth

01:08:07

those resources makes sense.

01:08:10

>> Yeah, of course. These are

01:08:12

>> human lives. Like who should do that?

01:08:14

But it's like when it is so clearly

01:08:17

going the other way.

01:08:18

>> Yeah.

01:08:19

>> Those resources could be better much

01:08:22

well spent somewhere else. And it's like

01:08:24

this is when I'm like

01:08:26

>> it's very do that.

01:08:27

>> Yeah. It just didn't feel like a good a

01:08:30

good use of it. Definitely not a good

01:08:32

use of resources because unsurprisingly

01:08:34

their search turned up literally

01:08:36

nothing.

01:08:37

>> And that was only the beginning of the

01:08:38

Austin Police Department's problems. On

01:08:40

May 31st, less than a month after the

01:08:42

report on the gun not being the gun was

01:08:45

released, a shocking photograph taken

01:08:48

from Mike Scott's police interrogation

01:08:50

was published in the papers.

01:08:52

>> Uhoh.

01:08:53

>> Appearing to show Detective Robert

01:08:55

Merrill holding a gun to the back of

01:08:57

Michael Scott's head during his investig

01:08:59

his interrogation.

01:09:01

>> Oh [ __ ] Yeah.

01:09:05

Allegedly.

01:09:07

But there's a

01:09:08

>> photograph.

01:09:10

>> Like, holy [ __ ]

01:09:12

>> That'll change things for everybody.

01:09:14

>> What?

01:09:16

>> I will never watching the West Memphis 3

01:09:19

stuff changed my like I because I just

01:09:23

don't get it.

01:09:24

>> I don't think closing a case

01:09:28

pretenses is more important than finding

01:09:30

out who actually did it.

01:09:32

>> Actual murderers. understand that it's

01:09:35

like you want to close the case because

01:09:36

you want to bring justice. That's that's

01:09:39

supposed to be what you go to law

01:09:40

enforcement for.

01:09:41

>> And it's like but like in the West

01:09:44

Memphis 3 case they knew.

01:09:47

>> Oh, I mean they were hiring allegedly

01:09:49

people to make up things

01:09:50

>> like allegedly. And it's like they knew

01:09:52

and it's like how do you feel good about

01:09:55

that? The killers are still killer or

01:09:58

killers are still running around and

01:10:01

you're just sitting there shoehorning

01:10:03

someone into the I know

01:10:05

>> and it's like do you not

01:10:08

>> you have to wonder there has to be some

01:10:10

part of them

01:10:11

>> on the flip side of it. You have to

01:10:12

wonder if they so desperately

01:10:16

want to believe that this is true that

01:10:18

somehow they convince themselves that

01:10:19

it's true. That's the only thing that

01:10:21

makes sense, I think, because otherwise

01:10:23

I can't understand ruining somebody's

01:10:27

life.

01:10:28

>> Yeah.

01:10:28

>> An innocent person's life

01:10:29

>> on false pretenses

01:10:30

>> to close a case.

01:10:31

>> Exactly.

01:10:32

>> And letting somebody like an actual

01:10:34

killer, a very dangerous animal of a

01:10:37

human being go, you know, like just cuz

01:10:39

you don't want to do the work. So I have

01:10:41

to believe that what you said is true

01:10:42

that it's like some maybe they convince

01:10:46

themselves that

01:10:47

>> I think the human brain works in very

01:10:49

very mysterious ways when

01:10:51

>> life and death is involved. You know

01:10:53

what I mean? I don't think we understand

01:10:55

all of it.

01:10:55

>> It's just knowing that it's like holding

01:10:58

a gun to his head.

01:10:59

>> Yeah. That's next level. That's like

01:11:00

even if you do believe that he killed

01:11:02

these four young women, you can't

01:11:04

>> do that. And also did you not think like

01:11:07

what was the point of taking a

01:11:08

photograph of that? That's the other

01:11:10

thing. I'm like, who took that picture?

01:11:12

>> Couldn't tell you.

01:11:12

>> Yeah. So, since their arrest the

01:11:14

previous year though, all four suspects

01:11:16

had maintained their innocence, by the

01:11:18

way. And both Mike Scott and Rob

01:11:20

Springsteen claimed that their

01:11:21

confessions, the only thing tying them

01:11:24

to the murders, by the way,

01:11:26

>> had been coerced and given under

01:11:27

distress or duress, which we now had a

01:11:29

photo of.

01:11:30

>> Yeah. The public uh publication of the

01:11:32

picture from Mike Scott's interrogation,

01:11:34

which was included in a motion to move

01:11:36

his trial to a different uh county,

01:11:38

seemed to support their statement. In a

01:11:41

response to the image going public, the

01:11:43

prosecutor's office released their own

01:11:45

statement saying, "The description

01:11:47

contained in the motion of the

01:11:48

photograph of Detective Robert Merrill

01:11:50

and Michael Scott is inaccurate."

01:11:53

Like, it's a photo. Um,

01:11:56

>> how is a photo inaccurate?

01:11:57

>> Yeah, you're going to have to explain

01:11:58

that one to me. Yeah, but skeptics like

01:12:01

defense attorney and former Austin

01:12:03

Police Department officer Jamie uh Balag

01:12:05

Balagia noted that the single image

01:12:08

might not be representative of the real

01:12:11

situation. But the officer added, "At

01:12:13

the same time, I don't know under what

01:12:16

circumstances that would be

01:12:17

appropriate." That's the problem there

01:12:19

cuz it's like

01:12:21

of course you're looking at one single

01:12:23

image. I'm saying this in a generalized

01:12:26

manner of like always if you look at a

01:12:28

single image it's hard to tell

01:12:30

>> the greater context around it

01:12:32

>> but then there's some images that you go

01:12:37

>> context makes sense to put a gun to

01:12:39

someone's head.

01:12:40

>> Yeah.

01:12:40

>> You know like that's even if he's like

01:12:43

>> cuz I don't think there's really any I

01:12:44

mean we talked a lot about um protocols

01:12:47

in our last episode.

01:12:49

>> I have never taken the police exam. I've

01:12:50

never been a police officer. I really

01:12:52

don't even know very many police

01:12:53

officers, but I really can't imagine

01:12:55

that there's a lot of instances in which

01:12:58

he would hold a gun to a suspect's head.

01:13:00

>> That's the thing. And the only thing,

01:13:02

this is literally me just like pulling

01:13:04

this out of my ass.

01:13:05

>> The only thing he could ever argue, I

01:13:07

would think, is that he was like showing

01:13:09

what happened to the girls.

01:13:11

>> Okay. Yeah. But if you're doing that by

01:13:14

putting your gun to this person under

01:13:17

interrogation's head, that by nature is

01:13:21

intimidation. It's like even if you're

01:13:23

not actually if you're saying that it's

01:13:25

just to show what happened or something,

01:13:27

you're putting a gun to someone's head

01:13:28

because at that point, no matter what.

01:13:29

Yeah. You just need to use like your

01:13:31

finger like a finger gun.

01:13:32

>> A finger gun like and it's like

01:13:33

>> which is not going to result exactly the

01:13:36

same.

01:13:36

>> Exly. So no matter what, it's an

01:13:38

intimidation tactic. Regardless of what

01:13:40

pretense it was done under,

01:13:42

>> intimidation is there because anybody

01:13:44

who has a gun put to their head is going

01:13:46

to be whatever the [ __ ] you want them

01:13:48

>> and they're going to have an immense

01:13:50

emotional, physical, psychological

01:13:52

reaction to that. It's just going to

01:13:54

happen. So you're already twisting

01:13:56

>> the circumstances to fit what you needed

01:13:58

to fit.

01:13:58

>> And also, who knows at what point in his

01:14:01

interrogation that took place? Michael

01:14:03

Scott was the person who was

01:14:05

interrogated for 18 hours.

01:14:07

>> Yeah. And I some of the sources say 22

01:14:10

hours.

01:14:10

>> That's insane.

01:14:11

>> Which like so anywhere between anywhere

01:14:13

in that situ like that's insane.

01:14:16

>> Yeah. It's

01:14:18

>> and can you imagine how exhausted you

01:14:20

would be and having a gun put to your

01:14:21

head.

01:14:21

>> That's the thing. You're exhausted and

01:14:22

then they pull out a gun and put it to

01:14:23

your head.

01:14:24

>> And again under any context,

01:14:26

>> not great.

01:14:27

>> Not great.

01:14:28

>> Not great.

01:14:28

>> No. So, within a matter of just a few

01:14:30

weeks, the case against Pierce,

01:14:32

Springsteen, and Scott had gone from

01:14:33

strongish

01:14:35

to seriously questionable. Yeah. But the

01:14:38

prosecution's problems were far from

01:14:40

over. In June, Diana Castanada, one of

01:14:43

the grand jury members who had indicted

01:14:45

all three men, wrote to the judge, Mike

01:14:48

Lynch, and quote, "Complained the jurors

01:14:50

had been used as pawns in what I assume

01:14:52

to be a rush judgment."

01:14:53

>> Whoa. That was one of the jury members.

01:14:56

>> Whoa. In Castana's opinion, the grand

01:14:59

jury had been heavily pressured by the

01:15:01

district attorney's office who were

01:15:03

eager to close the case on the yogurt

01:15:04

shop murders regardless of what the

01:15:06

evidence told them.

01:15:08

>> A year later, in an interview with my

01:15:10

call, she said, "I wish this case had

01:15:12

been done properly. I'm afraid we have

01:15:14

taken the easy way and that all the

01:15:16

facts aren't in it."

01:15:17

>> Oh, no.

01:15:17

>> Yeah. Diana Costanada's concerns about

01:15:20

fair the fairness of the grand jury

01:15:22

hearings were alarming in and of

01:15:24

themselves.

01:15:24

>> Yeah. But it was also concerning that

01:15:27

she had even learned about them at all

01:15:29

because grand jury proceedings are

01:15:31

supposed to be secret.

01:15:32

>> Yeah.

01:15:32

>> And only the outcome of the hearing is

01:15:34

made public. So by airing her concerns

01:15:36

with the judge and then with a

01:15:38

journalist that basically compromised

01:15:40

the entire process.

01:15:41

>> Yeah.

01:15:42

>> Which like

01:15:43

>> probably good that that happened, but

01:15:45

how did that even happen in the first

01:15:46

place?

01:15:48

So just two weeks later, another

01:15:50

bombshell dropped when Detective Paul

01:15:53

Johnson, a member of the yogurt shop

01:15:54

task force, revealed that back in 1999,

01:15:58

a ballistics expert with the Austin

01:16:00

Police Department informed him that

01:16:02

Pice's gun almost certainly not the gun

01:16:05

used in the murders. So that was like

01:16:08

way back when. Oops. At this point, the

01:16:11

report from the ATF had more or less

01:16:13

ruled out that Pierce's gun was the

01:16:14

murder weapon. So the news itself was

01:16:16

not significant. It was just like the

01:16:18

implication.

01:16:18

>> It was Yeah.

01:16:19

>> When investigators first interrogated

01:16:21

them again, like for the second time in

01:16:24

1999, they did so based on Pierce's

01:16:27

false confession from 1991 and the fact

01:16:30

that his gun supposedly matched the

01:16:31

caliber used in the shooting.

01:16:33

>> But if what Johnson said was true, that

01:16:35

meant that detectives knew that his gun

01:16:37

wasn't a match at least 9 months before

01:16:39

they spoke with him. Again,

01:16:40

>> it's like, what the [ __ ] What is going

01:16:42

on here? It doesn't. It's It's messy.

01:16:46

>> So, on their own, each of these

01:16:48

revelations raised serious questions

01:16:49

about the validity of all these

01:16:51

confessions and the cause for arrest.

01:16:53

But taken together, they suggested that

01:16:55

other than a false confession from a

01:16:57

teenager that was immediately recanted,

01:17:00

investigators never actually even had a

01:17:02

reason to suspect these four men in the

01:17:04

first place.

01:17:04

>> That's even scarier. It's terrifying. By

01:17:08

that point, the only thing connecting

01:17:10

the three accused to the murders were

01:17:12

Scott and Springsteen's confessions,

01:17:14

which again, they both claimed they had

01:17:16

been coerced. And that claim seemed to

01:17:19

be supported again by the the photograph

01:17:21

that we were just talking about. Now,

01:17:23

just as important to the growing

01:17:24

evidence of police misconduct was what

01:17:26

the limited evidence collected from the

01:17:28

scene had to say about the killer or the

01:17:30

killers. In 1991, like I was saying

01:17:32

earlier, DNA technology was obviously

01:17:35

still developing, but Sarah Harbison had

01:17:38

been sexually assaulted and Amy had

01:17:40

fought back against her attacker. So

01:17:42

that obviously produced physical

01:17:43

evidence from both of them in seinal

01:17:45

fluid and skin cells. By the time

01:17:47

Maurice Pierce, Michael Scott, and Rob

01:17:50

uh Rob Springsteen were facing capital

01:17:52

murder charges, by the way, in 2000, DNA

01:17:56

technology had come a long way and could

01:17:58

at the very least be used to rule out a

01:18:00

suspect or suspects. On June 30th, a

01:18:03

report from the Texas Department of

01:18:04

Public Safety was released and it

01:18:06

clearly stated that DNA collected from

01:18:09

the crime scene was not a match for any

01:18:12

of these three men and their DNA had not

01:18:15

been found anywhere else at the scene.

01:18:18

>> This is literally an echo of the West

01:18:20

Memphis 3 case.

01:18:21

>> It's chilling. That's exactly what

01:18:23

happened.

01:18:25

>> And the rest is too.

01:18:26

>> Oh.

01:18:27

>> So, it doesn't necessarily exonerate

01:18:29

them fully.

01:18:30

>> No. But it's insane.

01:18:32

>> But it shows that they were not like,

01:18:35

you know, they the DNA that was found is

01:18:38

not theirs.

01:18:39

>> Exactly.

01:18:39

>> So that's like significant.

01:18:41

>> It's significant and handinhand with

01:18:43

everything else. It's extra extra

01:18:45

significant.

01:18:46

>> And it obviously presented yet another

01:18:47

serious challenge for the prosecution.

01:18:49

It weakened their case in general. And

01:18:51

it also contradicted Mike Scott's

01:18:54

confession because part of his

01:18:55

confession was that Rob Springsteen had

01:18:58

sexually assaulted Sarah Harbison. And

01:18:59

that just disproved that completely,

01:19:01

which makes his whole confession come

01:19:03

into question.

01:19:04

>> And you basically got to throw it out at

01:19:05

that point.

01:19:06

>> Despite all the publicity about

01:19:08

corruption, ab abuse, and the growing

01:19:11

amount of evidence indicating that these

01:19:12

three suspects had nothing to do with

01:19:15

this case, investigators pressed on.

01:19:18

>> Oh man.

01:19:19

>> Hoping that the confessions, which we

01:19:20

just told you are [ __ ] tainted as all

01:19:22

hell, would be enough to secure a

01:19:24

conviction. They just barreled through,

01:19:27

huh? And it's it's hard to imagine.

01:19:32

>> Yeah.

01:19:32

>> But now, present day, we've become

01:19:34

obviously, we were even saying it

01:19:35

earlier, more cynical, more

01:19:37

sophisticated when it comes to our

01:19:39

knowledge of the law. But in the early

01:19:41

2000s, it was pretty reasonable to

01:19:43

assume that Springsteen and Scott

01:19:44

wouldn't have com confessed to crimes

01:19:46

that they didn't commit.

01:19:47

>> It would be a widely held belief that

01:19:49

innocent people just simply do not

01:19:51

confess to things that they didn't do.

01:19:53

>> Yeah.

01:19:53

>> Except they do. It actually happens so

01:19:56

much more often than we think. And we've

01:19:57

talked about it quite a few times on

01:19:59

this show.

01:20:00

>> And it's really scary. But at that time,

01:20:03

>> people just didn't think that way.

01:20:05

>> Why would you ever say

01:20:07

>> all the awful things if I mean, you

01:20:09

watch their interrogations and they're

01:20:12

>> very graphic?

01:20:14

>> Why would anybody ever say they did that

01:20:15

when they had no part of it? But we now

01:20:18

know so much more.

01:20:18

>> Exactly.

01:20:19

>> I just said that all pretty much. I was

01:20:21

just like reiterating myself, but it's

01:20:23

just insane.

01:20:24

>> It's true. So, a lot of times in

01:20:25

investigations, detectives go out of

01:20:27

their way to keep certain aspects of the

01:20:29

crime from the public in order to rule

01:20:31

out those suspects who didn't know the

01:20:33

details.

01:20:33

>> Yeah.

01:20:34

>> But during interrogations, especially

01:20:36

very long, very intense interrogations

01:20:39

that say last 18 to 22 hours and involve

01:20:41

holding a gun to somebody's head, I

01:20:42

don't know,

01:20:43

>> maybe

01:20:43

>> a great deal of information can be

01:20:46

conveyed to the person being

01:20:47

interviewed, whether investigators even

01:20:49

know they're doing it or not.

01:20:50

>> Yep. through photographs, accusations,

01:20:53

repeated questions about the crime

01:20:55

scenes, and different aspects of the

01:20:57

interrogation, investigators can feed

01:20:59

critical details about the case to a

01:21:02

suspect who then turns around and

01:21:04

repeats those things back to the

01:21:05

investigator to appease them and in some

01:21:08

cases and allegedly possibly this one,

01:21:10

avoid physical harm.

01:21:11

>> Yep.

01:21:12

>> As a result, people who are under this

01:21:15

stress, this anxiety end up confessing

01:21:18

to crazy [ __ ] that they did.

01:21:19

>> Absolutely. can be manipulated.

01:21:20

>> In the summer of 2002, Rob Springsteen

01:21:23

though and Michael Scott went on the

01:21:24

trial for the murders. And despite there

01:21:26

being no physical evidence and really at

01:21:29

this point just no [ __ ] evidence at

01:21:31

all connecting them to the murders,

01:21:33

juries in both cases found them guilty

01:21:36

after deliberating for less than three

01:21:38

hours.

01:21:39

>> Holy [ __ ]

01:21:40

>> During the sentencing phase, Rob

01:21:42

Springsteen was sentenced to death.

01:21:45

>> My god. and Michael Scott received a

01:21:47

life sentence with no possibility for

01:21:49

parole.

01:21:50

>> And again, if if they were guilty of

01:21:52

these things, then you're like,

01:21:54

>> well, you know, you did the crime. You

01:21:56

got to do the time. But it's like with

01:21:58

all the questions, it's like to go that

01:22:00

far to be sentenced to death with all

01:22:02

those lingering questions is

01:22:04

>> is

01:22:05

>> very West Memphis 3. It's also just so

01:22:07

scary to think of a time where we just

01:22:10

thought as a community and like as a

01:22:12

public like no people don't confess the

01:22:13

things they didn't do so lock them up

01:22:15

and

01:22:16

>> no matter what.

01:22:17

>> Like that's crazy. So they were

01:22:19

sentenced the two of them Rob and Mike

01:22:20

and Maurice Pierce was sitting in a jail

01:22:22

cell awaiting his trial. So once the

01:22:25

sentences were handed down with the same

01:22:27

fate pretty likely for me Maurice

01:22:29

Pierce, it seemed like the painful saga

01:22:31

of the yogurt shop murders was finally

01:22:33

coming to a close. However, when Rob

01:22:36

Springsteen's appeal finally made it to

01:22:38

court in the spring of 2006, Austin

01:22:41

residents hope of putting the murders

01:22:42

behind them completely fell apart.

01:22:45

Springsteen's defense attorney, Mary K.

01:22:47

Ciola, argued because Springsteen's

01:22:49

arrest and conviction had depended

01:22:51

almost entirely on Michael Scott's

01:22:52

confession, and Springsteen had been

01:22:55

denied the right to question Scott, his

01:22:57

accuser. That's like one of our basic

01:22:59

rights at his trial.

01:23:00

>> His rights had been violated.

01:23:02

>> Oh. Ultimately, it was like a very loopy

01:23:04

hole.

01:23:05

>> Pretty minor technicality. Not minor,

01:23:07

but it was a technicality.

01:23:08

>> Loophole.

01:23:09

>> Exactly. But it worked.

01:23:11

>> The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals

01:23:13

agreed and they overturned his

01:23:14

conviction and remanded him to the

01:23:16

custody of Travis County Sheriff's

01:23:17

Office to either be retrieded or

01:23:20

released. Wow.

01:23:21

>> And remember, that's a huge [ __ ] deal

01:23:22

because he was facing the death pen like

01:23:24

he was he got the death penalty.

01:23:26

>> Wow. Mary Kay.

01:23:28

>> Mary Kay, not the makeup, the lawyer.

01:23:31

Yeah.

01:23:31

>> Also, I just said bronze.

01:23:32

>> The makeup bronze.

01:23:33

>> The makeup bronze.

01:23:34

>> Also, I have to get this out of the way.

01:23:36

>> Go for it.

01:23:37

>> Michael Scott.

01:23:38

>> Okay. Every time you say it, I can't.

01:23:40

Okay. I just got to get it out of the

01:23:42

way. I know. You know, we all know. We

01:23:44

all We're all knowing. Yeah.

01:23:46

>> That we're thinking of The Office.

01:23:47

>> I was actually surprised that you didn't

01:23:48

say it earlier.

01:23:49

>> I was cuz it's it seemed insensitive at

01:23:51

at certain points. So, I figured I'd

01:23:53

wait until now

01:23:54

>> cuz I just got to get it out. Just so

01:23:56

you you guys listening cuz I know

01:23:58

>> that you also thought that and I don't

01:24:00

want you to think that I'm pretending I

01:24:02

didn't.

01:24:02

>> There were so many times in this that I

01:24:03

was trying to write Mike instead of

01:24:04

Michael simply for that purpose cuz he

01:24:06

was called both.

01:24:07

>> Yeah.

01:24:08

>> Just got to put that out.

01:24:09

>> If you can imagine, things got even

01:24:10

worse for the prosecution the following

01:24:12

year.

01:24:12

>> Jesus.

01:24:12

>> When Mike Scott's appeal reached the

01:24:14

appeals court. Among other things, his

01:24:16

appeal argued that his constitutional

01:24:18

rights had also been violated when

01:24:20

Austin police coerced a confession from

01:24:22

him during that 1999 interrogation. At

01:24:24

the initial trial, the prosecution

01:24:26

claimed that there were details that of

01:24:28

the confession that only the killers

01:24:29

could have known. However, Scott's

01:24:32

lawyer argued that nearly all of the

01:24:34

information provided in the confession

01:24:36

had been made publicly available over

01:24:37

the years in press releases, newspapers,

01:24:40

and word of mouth, quote, originating

01:24:42

from the numerous police officers and

01:24:44

firefighters who had responded to the

01:24:46

crime scene.

01:24:46

>> Oh man,

01:24:47

>> remember had small town vibes.

01:24:49

>> Certainly did.

01:24:50

>> Small town people.

01:24:51

>> Yeah, they're talking.

01:24:52

>> Talk talk talk. So, the defense also

01:24:54

argued that many of the details of the

01:24:56

confession were just straight up wrong

01:24:58

and contradicted facts of the case.

01:25:02

>> You got a question.

01:25:02

>> It's like they were so excited about the

01:25:04

things that did fit

01:25:05

>> that they ignored the ones that didn't.

01:25:07

>> Yeah. So, in a five to four decision

01:25:09

handed down in June of 2007, the Texas

01:25:11

appeals court ruled in favor of Mike

01:25:13

Scott and they reversed his conviction.

01:25:15

Wow.

01:25:15

>> So, we now have two appeals courts

01:25:18

agreeing with the convicted. So in their

01:25:20

conclusion, they basically said that

01:25:22

because the confession was the only

01:25:24

thing that could move the jury to find

01:25:26

Michael Scott guilty and there was

01:25:28

serious cause to question the validity

01:25:30

validity of that confession in the first

01:25:32

place, it would have been impossible for

01:25:34

the jury to find him guilty beyond

01:25:35

reasonable doubt.

01:25:36

>> Th those are the key words, beyond a

01:25:38

reasonable doubt.

01:25:39

>> Exactly. So the news that both

01:25:41

convictions had now been overturned was

01:25:43

met with joy from the defendants

01:25:45

obviously, but for the families it was

01:25:47

like being revictimized all over again.

01:25:50

>> That must have felt like being tased. I

01:25:52

can't even

01:25:54

>> think of that.

01:25:55

>> Well, and like

01:25:57

>> you we're happy that we have a justice

01:25:59

system where you can appeal your

01:26:00

conviction because of cases like this.

01:26:03

But when you're sitting there as a a a

01:26:05

family member of somebody who has been

01:26:08

tortured essentially and then murdered,

01:26:11

>> you don't give a [ __ ] about the rights

01:26:13

of the person who is said to have done

01:26:15

that and who you've been convinced for

01:26:16

years at this point did this and is

01:26:19

sitting in jail where they should be.

01:26:20

>> Yeah.

01:26:20

>> So Eliza Thomas's mother, Maria, said,

01:26:22

"Every time I hear those words that

01:26:24

their rights were violated, I feel like

01:26:26

I'm going to go insane." Absolutely.

01:26:28

>> Which you can 1,000% understand. I would

01:26:31

feel the same [ __ ] way.

01:26:32

>> But for the prosecution, who had

01:26:34

intended to retry both men, things

01:26:36

continued their downward spiral.

01:26:38

>> Damn.

01:26:38

>> After the decisions from the appeals

01:26:40

court, Michael Scott and Rob

01:26:41

Springsteen's lawyers filed a motion to

01:26:43

receive the results of the partial DNA

01:26:46

profile that had been developed from the

01:26:48

rape kit, which ruled both of them out.

01:26:50

>> Wow. Still determined to prosecute the

01:26:52

case, then district attorney uh Rosemary

01:26:54

Lmberg pressed on, telling a reporter,

01:26:57

"I remain really confident that both

01:26:59

Springsteen and Scott were responsible

01:27:01

for killing those poor girls." Wow.

01:27:03

>> I don't know why she would be so

01:27:04

confident.

01:27:04

>> Yeah. But by 2009, there was no new

01:27:07

evidence and there were no new leads

01:27:09

that had been found to link these two

01:27:11

men to the case. And so Lmberg had no

01:27:14

choice but to drop the charges against

01:27:16

both of them. And once again, the yogurt

01:27:18

chop murders were an open, unsolved

01:27:21

case,

01:27:22

>> which for the family is even more it's

01:27:25

it's almost even more heartbreaking. I

01:27:27

don't even think almost. It's more

01:27:28

heartbreaking than there just never have

01:27:30

been.

01:27:31

>> Yeah.

01:27:31

>> Like any answer at all.

01:27:32

>> It's just catastrophic

01:27:34

>> because just they went through all of

01:27:36

this leadup to a trial. They went

01:27:38

through trials. They got their

01:27:39

convictions. These two men that they

01:27:41

thought did this, like I was saying,

01:27:43

spent their time in prison.

01:27:44

we're going to be there forever

01:27:47

basically.

01:27:48

>> And then all of a sudden you're back to

01:27:50

square one and you have no idea who did

01:27:52

this.

01:27:52

>> And that's the other thing. It's like

01:27:53

they turn around now and say we got

01:27:55

nothing.

01:27:55

>> And at that point I'm sure you've lost

01:27:57

all faith in the justice system. Oh

01:27:59

yeah.

01:27:59

>> I can't imagine.

01:28:01

>> So with the charges dropped, Springsteen

01:28:03

and Scott were both free men after

01:28:04

nearly a decade spent in prison.

01:28:07

>> But just because the district attorney

01:28:09

dropped the charges didn't necessarily

01:28:11

exonerate them. And it also remained

01:28:14

possible that they could be retrieded at

01:28:15

any time should any new information come

01:28:17

to light. So that's terrifying for them.

01:28:20

>> Yeah. I mean, it's good because

01:28:22

>> you something comes up that's like they

01:28:24

did do it actually. It's like, yeah, you

01:28:25

want to bring them in.

01:28:26

>> Exactly. So with no new leads or

01:28:28

evidence, the case was effectively

01:28:30

shelved for several years, several more

01:28:32

years to until new legislation passed in

01:28:35

2021, which gave families of cold case

01:28:38

victims the opportunity to petition to

01:28:40

have the cases re-examined. In the years

01:28:42

that had passed, DNA technology

01:28:44

continued to advance. So, investigators

01:28:47

went back to that partial profile taken

01:28:49

from the rape kit, which had ruled

01:28:51

everybody out.

01:28:52

>> The sample was obviously somewhat

01:28:53

degraded, and it contained only the male

01:28:56

portion of the DNA, but it was somewhere

01:28:58

to start. So, investigators ran it

01:29:00

through every database that they could

01:29:02

think of until they finally got a hit

01:29:04

from a public database used for

01:29:06

population studies.

01:29:08

But, they ran into a problem.

01:29:10

>> Oh, no. The problem was that the sample

01:29:13

had been submitted anonymously by the

01:29:14

FBI and had no identity attached to it.

01:29:18

>> The frustration. So that meant whoever

01:29:21

the DNA sample on the database belonged

01:29:23

to, they were either a convicted felon

01:29:24

in a federal case or an arresty and

01:29:27

privacy laws prevented the FBI from

01:29:29

disclosing that person's identity to

01:29:31

investigators in Austin. So it's like

01:29:33

you find something but it's like sorry

01:29:36

can't tell you.

01:29:36

>> We have to know.

01:29:37

>> It's like a literal like bridge troll.

01:29:38

Like you shall not pass.

01:29:39

>> Yeah. like, okay, but I want to.

01:29:42

>> After 30 years, investigators had

01:29:46

finally managed to develop a lead on

01:29:48

their most promising suspect in one of

01:29:50

Texas's most notorious cold cases, but

01:29:53

they were prevented from knowing the

01:29:54

identity of who that person was.

01:29:57

>> So, they then spent a few more years

01:29:58

spinning their wheels in frustration

01:30:00

until the new head of the cold case

01:30:02

unit, Daniel Jackson,

01:30:04

>> Daniel Jackson,

01:30:06

>> he decided to take a new approach to the

01:30:07

evidence.

01:30:08

>> Let's go, Daniel. is actually quite

01:30:10

smart.

01:30:11

>> So, in the roughly 15 years since Rob

01:30:14

Springsteen and Mike Scott had been

01:30:15

released from prison, 15 years had now

01:30:17

gone by. By the way, we're telling this

01:30:19

in like an hour and a half, so it's hard

01:30:21

to imagine, but that's a long time.

01:30:23

>> Yeah.

01:30:23

>> So, since then, the district attorney's

01:30:25

office had been hyperfocused on that DNA

01:30:27

pro uh DNA profile, hoping that it would

01:30:30

lead them to who they still believed was

01:30:32

Springsteen and Scott's accomplice,

01:30:34

because they still believe they were

01:30:35

involved in this. In the years since

01:30:37

their release though, technology in the

01:30:39

area of law law law enforcement had

01:30:40

advanced in a myriad of ways, including

01:30:43

the development of a new law enforcement

01:30:45

database known as the National

01:30:47

Integrated Ballistic Information

01:30:49

Network. So, like Cotus does with human

01:30:52

identifying characteristics, uh, the

01:30:54

NIBIN logs the unique identifying

01:30:57

characteristics of bullets used in

01:30:59

crimes across the country, which is

01:31:01

really cool.

01:31:02

>> Nibbon.

01:31:02

>> Nibbon. and that allows investigators to

01:31:05

determine whether a particular gun has

01:31:07

been used in other crimes.

01:31:09

Unfortunately, Nibbon doesn't include

01:31:11

all types of ammunition and it excludes,

01:31:13

among other things, small caliber

01:31:15

ammunitions like the 22 caliber bullet,

01:31:18

which we've all become very familiar

01:31:19

with.

01:31:20

But in considering the evidence

01:31:22

recently, it occurred to Jackson that

01:31:24

while the majority of the murders were

01:31:26

committed with a 22 caliber weapon,

01:31:28

remember Amy Heirs had been shot a

01:31:30

second time with a 380 caliber weapon as

01:31:33

well.

01:31:34

>> So to everybody's surprise, when the 380

01:31:37

bullet was entered into Nibbon, which

01:31:38

we're now calling it, we don't actually

01:31:39

know if it's called that.

01:31:40

>> I feel like it's right.

01:31:41

>> It's better than Nibbin. I like Nib.

01:31:43

>> Exactly. But to everybody's surprise, it

01:31:47

returned as a match to a series of

01:31:49

crimes committed in Kentucky in the

01:31:52

1990s.

01:31:54

In that case, a family-owned store had

01:31:56

been robbed and the cashier was bound

01:31:58

before being shot in the back.

01:32:00

>> And before leaving the crime scene, the

01:32:03

killer set the store on fire.

01:32:05

>> Oh my god.

01:32:06

>> Bound. Shot in the back.

01:32:09

>> Hello. Once the bullets had been matched

01:32:11

to a gun used in the other crime, the

01:32:13

rest of the pieces of the puzzle all

01:32:15

started to fall into place. The DNA

01:32:17

profile taken from the rape kit and the

01:32:19

skin cells collected from Amy's

01:32:21

fingernails, which had now been further

01:32:23

developed through a citizen

01:32:25

genealogologist was run through COS

01:32:27

again, and it came back as a hit on a

01:32:30

sexual assault case from 1990.

01:32:32

>> The rapist in that case was identified

01:32:34

as Robert Eugene Brashers.

01:32:37

>> [ __ ] Truly, that's actually the

01:32:40

exact translation to who this person is.

01:32:42

>> Is what that's called. I also think it's

01:32:44

wild that the skin cells collected from

01:32:46

Amy Heir's fingernails were developed by

01:32:49

citizen genealogologists.

01:32:50

>> Thank you actually for that.

01:32:52

>> So interesting.

01:32:53

>> That is incredible.

01:32:55

>> That's incredible.

01:32:56

>> And again, a great representation of

01:32:58

community.

01:32:59

>> Yes, absolutely.

01:33:00

>> The community in this case did not let

01:33:02

anybody down.

01:33:02

>> Stepped in.

01:33:04

So [ __ ] was born in 1958 in Virginia

01:33:08

and his early life was unremarkable.

01:33:10

Once he graduated from high school, he

01:33:12

enlisted in the army and served

01:33:14

honorably until his discharge in the

01:33:15

early 80s when he settled in New

01:33:17

Orleans, which like how dare he even

01:33:18

have the audacity.

01:33:20

>> In 1985, Robert Brashers was arrested on

01:33:24

charges that he sexually assaulted and

01:33:26

attempted to murder 24year-old Michelle

01:33:28

Wilkerson. After shooting Wilkerson and

01:33:31

leaving her for dead, he fled the scene,

01:33:33

but she managed to find help and

01:33:35

eventually reported him.

01:33:36

>> Good for her.

01:33:37

>> So, he was arrested a short time later

01:33:39

and convicted and sentenced to 12 years

01:33:41

in prison, which you know how I feel

01:33:43

about attempted murder.

01:33:44

>> All right.

01:33:45

>> But he got released in 1989.

01:33:47

>> So, he was just released.

01:33:49

>> Just like couple of years.

01:33:51

>> What a [ __ ] animal. In the years that

01:33:53

followed, he drifted around the South

01:33:55

and Southwest, committing various

01:33:56

crimes, including robberies, breaking

01:33:58

and entering, sexual assault, and he was

01:34:00

also suspected in multiple murders. In

01:34:03

January 1999, police in Miss uh in

01:34:06

Missouri spotted a potentially stolen

01:34:07

vehicle in the parking lot of a motel,

01:34:10

and they were directed to one Robert

01:34:12

Brasher's room,

01:34:13

>> the man who registered the car when he

01:34:14

checked in. They broke down the door of

01:34:16

the motel room, obviously intending to

01:34:18

arrest him, but when they got inside,

01:34:20

they were immediately forced back out by

01:34:23

the suspect, who had crawled under the

01:34:25

bed and was firing from his position

01:34:27

there.

01:34:27

>> [ __ ]

01:34:28

>> So, over the course of several hours,

01:34:30

police attempted to negotiate the

01:34:32

release of his family.

01:34:34

>> Holy [ __ ]

01:34:34

>> Who were being held hostage in the room

01:34:36

with him until he finally gave up and

01:34:39

shot himself in the head.

01:34:40

>> I hate that. That's how it ended. 1999.

01:34:46

>> Later, when the ammunition was run

01:34:47

through Nibbon, it came back as a match

01:34:50

for the 380 used in the other crimes.

01:34:52

>> Wow.

01:34:53

>> All of the other crimes. Wow.

01:34:55

>> Including the yogurt shop.

01:34:57

>> Piece of [ __ ] So, in late September of

01:34:59

this year, 2025, Daniel Jackson called a

01:35:01

press conference to announce that after

01:35:04

34 years, it's literally almost your

01:35:07

entire life,

01:35:07

>> 34 years,

01:35:09

>> 34 years of frustration and heartbreak,

01:35:12

investigators could conclusively

01:35:14

identify Robert Eugene Brashers as the

01:35:16

killer of Amy, Eliza Thomas, Jennifer

01:35:19

Harbison, and Sarah Harbison.

01:35:20

>> Wow.

01:35:21

>> Journalist Mike Hall said, "I kept

01:35:23

expecting some outcry or something, but

01:35:25

it was stunned silence.

01:35:27

cuz it's been 34 years.

01:35:28

>> Yeah. Like, how do you even do you do

01:35:30

you celebrate? What do you do?

01:35:32

>> I don't know what you do. And also, do

01:35:34

you celebrate because you've been

01:35:35

wronged before?

01:35:36

>> And also, he can't really face justice.

01:35:39

>> That's the biggest thing.

01:35:40

>> So, it's like that's even more

01:35:41

frustrating.

01:35:42

>> That's the biggest thing that is just so

01:35:43

sad. Even though they now have

01:35:45

identified Robert Brashers as the sole

01:35:47

killer in the yogurt shop murders,

01:35:48

investigators still have a lot of work

01:35:50

ahead of them before the case can

01:35:51

actually be considered completely

01:35:53

closed. But in the meantime, there's a

01:35:55

lot of questions that demand officers

01:35:57

from the officers who were in charge of

01:35:59

the case over the previous decades

01:36:01

because their poor management,

01:36:02

misconduct, and malpractice in general

01:36:05

allowed a killer to go free while two

01:36:07

innocent men spent nearly a decade of

01:36:09

their lives in prison.

01:36:10

>> That's [ __ ] up.

01:36:11

>> And for their part, Mike Scott and Rob

01:36:13

Springsteen still continue to call

01:36:15

attention to their case. And they're

01:36:17

pursuing, which they still haven't got,

01:36:18

by the way, they're still pursuing a

01:36:20

full declaration of innocence from the

01:36:22

state. Wow. And if they do secure that

01:36:24

declaration, they're both entitled to

01:36:26

financial compensation for wrongful

01:36:28

imprisonment.

01:36:28

>> Imagine.

01:36:29

>> Yeah.

01:36:29

>> Holy [ __ ]

01:36:30

>> Those kind of things take a long time,

01:36:32

if they ever make sure they do.

01:36:33

>> Yeah. Unfortunately though, the

01:36:36

identification of Robert Brashers as the

01:36:37

killer in the yogurt shop case came too

01:36:39

late to change the life of Maurice

01:36:41

Pierce. In December 2010, he got into an

01:36:44

altercation with an Austin police

01:36:45

officer after a traffic stop, and he was

01:36:48

killed when he attempted to stab one of

01:36:50

the arresting officers. Holy [ __ ]

01:36:53

>> He led you

01:36:53

>> can't be stabbing people.

01:36:54

>> You definitely can't be stabbing people.

01:36:56

He led a very tough life after

01:37:00

>> uh he obviously was like let go from

01:37:01

prison when all of this fell through

01:37:03

>> and he had a lot of run-ins with the

01:37:05

law.

01:37:05

>> Yeah. I mean that whole situation is

01:37:07

[ __ ] up.

01:37:07

>> That whole situation is very [ __ ] up

01:37:09

and allegedly a lot of people felt like

01:37:11

he was being targeted.

01:37:12

>> Yeah. But I don't that I'm not saying.

01:37:15

>> So after the press conference where

01:37:16

Robert Brashers was identified as the

01:37:18

killer, the district attorney Jose Garza

01:37:21

announced his intention to assemble what

01:37:23

he called the convict uh the conviction

01:37:25

integrity unit, a group that would be

01:37:27

tasked with reviewing certain cases to

01:37:29

ensure that confessions were given

01:37:31

voluntarily and that no suspect was

01:37:33

coerced or wrongfully detained. That is

01:37:36

so needed. So, so at least like that

01:37:39

little bit of justice comes from the

01:37:41

lack of other justice that happened in

01:37:43

this case.

01:37:43

>> Well, and that's it shows you exactly

01:37:46

what these like wrongful, you know,

01:37:49

wrongfully coerced confessions, how much

01:37:51

they [ __ ] up a case because that once

01:37:54

they fig once they thought they had

01:37:56

these guys, they stopped looking.

01:37:58

>> Exactly.

01:37:58

>> So, it's like everything stops. It takes

01:38:00

one person luckily that was like,

01:38:02

>> I don't know about this and I should

01:38:04

look into it. Thank goodness that person

01:38:05

came in and did that. Mhm.

01:38:07

>> Otherwise, they would have stopped.

01:38:09

>> That's the thing.

01:38:10

>> This would have been it. We never would

01:38:11

have found anything else about it. And

01:38:13

we would have thought that, you know,

01:38:14

Mike Scott and Rob Springsteen were

01:38:16

>> were the ones

01:38:17

>> were the ones who did it and that was

01:38:18

it.

01:38:18

>> And Rob Springsteen could have been

01:38:21

executed.

01:38:23

>> He was supposed to have been executed. I

01:38:25

also can't imagine

01:38:26

>> coming to grips with that as a person

01:38:28

that like, holy [ __ ] I was almost

01:38:30

executed for something I didn't do.

01:38:32

>> Like that's insane.

01:38:33

>> I mean, that was Damen Eckles. Yeah.

01:38:35

>> Sitting there on death row. Yeah.

01:38:36

>> Like that's crazy.

01:38:37

>> That's got to change your life.

01:38:38

>> It's very similar. It's

01:38:40

>> shocking.

01:38:41

>> This whole case really is. And when I

01:38:42

was getting to the end, I was like, I

01:38:44

feel like I've heard this before, which

01:38:46

is sad

01:38:47

>> cuz you hope that something like that

01:38:48

like never

01:38:48

>> repeat once in a lifetime thing.

01:38:50

>> But unfortunately, it's not.

01:38:52

>> I'm happy for the family members of the

01:38:55

four victims that

01:38:58

>> there's a name.

01:38:59

>> There's a name.

01:39:00

>> You know, I I know it doesn't bring any

01:39:02

>> it doesn't bring them back. It doesn't

01:39:04

make it easier. doesn't like closure is

01:39:06

a hard thing to come by.

01:39:07

>> I was just going to say like we've heard

01:39:08

so many times that there's really no

01:39:10

such thing as closure

01:39:12

that they at least have a name.

01:39:13

>> Yeah.

01:39:14

>> You know, if that helps.

01:39:15

>> And I and I hope it does.

01:39:16

>> I hope it does in some way.

01:39:18

>> But yeah, it's a very devastating case.

01:39:19

>> It's a horrific case.

01:39:21

>> But it shows you no [ __ ] case is

01:39:24

cold.

01:39:24

>> Nope. No case is cold.

01:39:25

>> There's no such thing as an ice cold

01:39:27

case. It's barely chilly.

01:39:29

>> It's barely chilly. 34 years.

01:39:31

>> 34 years. And finally, somebody figured

01:39:34

it out. And now it's even easier to

01:39:37

crack these crimes because we got all

01:39:39

these advancements in DNA and

01:39:41

technology.

01:39:41

>> We got to know.

01:39:42

>> I didn't even know about Nibbon. That is

01:39:44

one of the coolest things to me

01:39:46

>> that you can ballistics.

01:39:48

>> Ballistics is so fascinating. You said

01:39:50

you took a ballistics class.

01:39:51

>> I did take a ballistics class. It was

01:39:53

very like a anthropology class. Had a

01:39:55

ballistics element.

01:39:56

>> That's cool.

01:39:57

>> Yeah.

01:39:58

>> Yeah. It was very interesting.

01:39:59

>> Yeah. Um, so we decided because it's

01:40:01

sometimes so tough to just like

01:40:03

transition into like, "Okay, bye. We

01:40:04

love you. Keep it weird." We're going to

01:40:06

start doing a random fun fact at the or

01:40:08

just like a random fact at the end of

01:40:09

episodes. And I found a random fact

01:40:11

generator just now.

01:40:12

>> Love that.

01:40:13

>> So to leave you on a random note,

01:40:15

durian, which grows in Southeast Asia,

01:40:18

is known as the smelliest fruit in the

01:40:19

world. Oh my god. You know, I actually

01:40:21

knew that. Well, [ __ ] you. I knew what a

01:40:23

durian was. Well, those of you who don't

01:40:25

know, I heard you say it under your

01:40:26

breath and I was like, did she say

01:40:27

durian? It's supposed to smell like

01:40:29

[ __ ]

01:40:29

>> It's supposed It It's supposed to smell

01:40:32

like rotten eggs, sweaty socks, or

01:40:34

straight up garbage

01:40:35

>> socks. That's the thing that like feet.

01:40:37

>> So, we're going to start calling in like

01:40:39

we are obviously going to continue using

01:40:40

wet lettuce, but we can add durian into

01:40:42

durian fruit.

01:40:43

>> You wet lettuce durian fruit.

01:40:45

>> Hell yeah.

01:40:46

>> And with that being said, we hope you

01:40:48

keep listening.

01:40:50

>> I was like I was like, "Sorry, we

01:40:52

changed the end a little bit. I got

01:40:53

confused. What's going on?" And we hope

01:40:54

you keep listening.

01:40:55

>> And we hope you keep it. weird, but not

01:40:59

to these smell like durian. Don't be a

01:41:01

durian fruit like Robert Brashers.

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

95
Most heartbreaking
95
Biggest twist
90
Most shocking
90
Most unpredictable

Episode Highlights

Cookie Making Mood
Ash and Elena share their excitement about holiday baking and cookie ideas.
“Maybe I'll make some of those.”
@ 00m 30s
December 14, 2025
Yogurt Shop Murders
A chilling recount of the yogurt shop murders that shocked a community.
“This is a brutal, brutal case.”
@ 14m 08s
December 14, 2025
The Yogurt Shop Murders
The tragic events at the yogurt shop shattered Austin's sense of safety.
“When the news of the yogurt shop murders broke... it was like Austin's innocence had completely shattered.”
@ 20m 58s
December 14, 2025
Confession Gone Wrong
A teenage girl falsely confessed to the murders, shocking investigators.
“Detectives realized she was giving a false confession when she had absolutely no knowledge of the details.”
@ 32m 54s
December 14, 2025
Community Support for Victims
The Austin community rallied together to support the victims' families with memorials and fundraising efforts.
“Everybody was keeping the girls' memories alive with posters, banners, buttons, t-shirts.”
@ 35m 49s
December 14, 2025
Confessions Recanted
The two suspects recanted their confessions, claiming they were coerced by police.
“They said they'd been beaten by police in Mexico and forced to confess.”
@ 44m 52s
December 14, 2025
Confessions Under Scrutiny
Confessions from suspects raise questions about their credibility and the investigation's integrity.
“This doesn't sound believable.”
@ 53m 09s
December 14, 2025
Families React to Arrests
Families of victims express mixed emotions about the arrests after years of frustration.
“We simply do not have enough information.”
@ 01h 00m 25s
December 14, 2025
Photo Controversy
A shocking photo of a detective holding a gun to a suspect's head raises serious questions.
“Like, holy [ __ ] That'll change things for everybody.”
@ 01h 09m 12s
December 14, 2025
Grand Jury Concerns
A juror expressed fears of being used as pawns in a rush judgment.
“Complained the jurors had been used as pawns in what I assume to be a rush judgment.”
@ 01h 14m 50s
December 14, 2025
DNA Evidence
DNA collected from the crime scene was not a match for the accused suspects.
“The DNA that was found is not theirs.”
@ 01h 18m 39s
December 14, 2025
Overturned Conviction
Rob Springsteen's conviction was overturned due to a violation of his rights.
“His rights had been violated.”
@ 01h 23m 02s
December 14, 2025

Episode Quotes

It's cold as [ __ ] It's that kind of day.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders
At one time, girls could go anywhere. Now, you've got to be careful.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders
You just think of the worst kind of goblin in your head.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders
We as a city lost our innocence.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders
It's chilling. That's exactly what happened.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders
It's significant and hand-in-hand with everything else. It's extra, extra significant.
Episode 736: The Yogurt Shop Murders

Key Moments

Brutal Case14:08
Community Shock21:01
Confession Doubts40:11
The Arrest Announcement57:11
Skepticism from Families1:00:45
Desperate Measures1:07:32
Photo Evidence1:08:55
Juror's Doubts1:14:56

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown