00:00:01
Hey weirdos. I'm Ash. >> And I'm Elena. >> And this is Morbid. This is morbid. This is morbid. And
00:00:21
we're coming off the Super Bowl. >> We are. Which we bummer that our team lost >> legendarily. I was so worried cuz for so
00:00:28
much of that game, here's the thing. I really thought I was getting out of it because my husband doesn't care about
00:00:33
sports. This man looks at me. I didn't even get to tell Debbie this. She's sitting on the couch looking at me. This
00:00:37
man tells me, "Let's just watch for the commercials." >> Oh, no. That's the beginning.
00:00:41
>> I said, "Okay." >> Oh, no. Welcome. >> And then he said, "There's really nothing else on." I was like, "I could
00:00:45
think of so many things on. All right." I like, "Okay." Uh, but I was so worried. We were at zero points for so
00:00:52
much of it that I was like, are we going to lose this Super Bowl with zero points? And that has never happened in
00:00:59
history. So I was like, that would be horrible. And we had gone to the Celtics game earlier, which was also Love, Love
00:01:06
RC's, real bad game. They didn't do great. >> I was like, it's not a banner day for
00:01:10
Boston. We I said that to John and he didn't think it was as funny as I did because I was like, whoa, Boston Sports
00:01:15
really [ __ ] the ben today. And he was like, yeah. >> I was like, sorry. >> They did. But he said that halfway
00:01:22
through it, he said, "This has to be the worst outing for a team in Super Bowl history."
00:01:29
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, and he he wasn't playing. >> The score was just crazy. Like, I was
00:01:35
You know what? We won't harp on it cuz >> Yeah. I mean, >> sports >> cuz sports, but what we will talk about
00:01:40
is how [ __ ] awesome that Super Bowl halftime show. >> The halftime show was incredible. I just
00:01:45
found out that the bushes were people. Yeah. And when she first said that, when she f she said that out loud to me and I
00:01:53
I paused. I hesitated. I looked con coagulating all over. >> I was that meme with the lady with all
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like the equations over her head and I'm looking out cuz I thought she meant like
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the bushes like the bush family like the bush family and she was like the bushes
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are people. And I was like was that a question? Like am did I miss a whole chapter in this nonsense that is what is
00:02:14
the world right now that like were they like not people like they very much are people I was very confused and then you
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said the bushes in the halftime show >> the bushes in the halftime show were people and then I I saw them leaving and
00:02:26
I was like that's incredible that's really cool >> a couple got married was gorgeous the
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whole thing was beautiful Bad Bunny is beautiful Bunny is beautiful Lady Gaga forever my entire TikTok now is Bad
00:02:39
Bunny music. I saw a family who was um like watching the Super Bowl and they like
00:02:46
were fans of Big Bunny and I literally cried at this family D. They cuz they were just so excited and they were
00:02:52
actually finally like represented on a on a main stage. I started crying. >> Oh, I love that.
00:02:57
>> It was beautiful. >> I think it was the most watched Super Bowl halftime show.
00:03:00
>> Was it? >> I believe it's it's up there at least at the very least. We should make sure. But
00:03:04
I know it's it's got a distinction. >> It squashed that other one. So it did doesn't exist.
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>> But yeah, it was really cool to see. I thought that was a really cool halftime
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show and the message was beautiful. >> I loved the end. >> The only thing stronger than hate is
00:03:20
love because we should all believe that. >> And together we are America. >> Together we're America. It was unity. It
00:03:27
was all positivity. >> If you happen to find something offensive about it, I can't really help
00:03:31
you there because >> it was all pretty [ __ ] positive. Also, Bad Bunny. >> He's a handsome man.
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>> Benito. Benito. >> He is very handsome. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but yeah, it was great. It was
00:03:44
awesome. >> And I really liked it. And did you see that creature Megan Kelly being such a
00:03:52
racist [ __ ] about? >> Unfortunately, I did. It made me when she spin out >> when she went into like like being like
00:04:01
Latinos, I was like, "You're disgusting." Yeah, >> it was just like gross. It came across
00:04:06
my feed and I was like >> I think she mentioned that like um the halftime show is supposed to be all
00:04:11
American which like meatloaf >> uh read a goddamn book. I [ __ ] beg of you. And two she wanted meatloaf there.
00:04:19
I don't know where that went. Not the singer. She said yeah that person's dead. She said meatloaf fried chicken
00:04:25
and apple pie and an apple pie. I said none of those things were on my table ma'am. It's also never what halftime
00:04:31
show has had meatloaf, apple pie, and fried chicken as part of it. >> But we do not condone Megan Kelly at
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all. We think she's vile, racist, >> disgusting. Our opinions do not align with hers at all.
00:04:46
>> No, they don't. But >> we just wanted to say that. >> But you know what? Have the day you
00:04:49
deserve, I guess. So, >> Bad Bunny forever. >> Bad Bunny forever. >> Bad Bunny goes hard. I'm going to learn
00:04:55
Spanish just so I can jam to those songs. >> I should know Spanish. I took it in high
00:04:58
school, but I did not do well. So, maybe I should relearn it. >> I know a tiny tiny bit of Spanish. Like
00:05:03
when he says b >> Oh, you had a good You had a good uh >> pronunciation. I almost said
00:05:08
personification. I don't >> My my Spanish teacher used to tell me that I had a really good uh like
00:05:15
pronunciation, but I just I never got verbs and tenses and that whole thing, >> you know. But let's learn it.
00:05:21
>> Babble babble babble. Come on the show. >> Rosetta Stone. >> Rosetta Stone. We'll learn it so that
00:05:28
and then we'll know exactly what Bad Bunny is saying and we can jam even harder.
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>> Hell yeah. What's the one? Um it he's saying I should have gave you more kisses and hugs when I still had
00:05:43
you. And it makes me cry and dance at the same time. >> When Ash did that, she danced while she
00:05:50
did like salsa in place. >> She did. She salsa in her in her couch. Listen, >> I love this.
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>> Listen, there there's white people and then there's white people. >> It's it's speaking of of wildness,
00:06:03
America's Next Top Model. >> Get ready for our bonus episode. This one This one we're both wicked excited
00:06:08
for. We are going to be covering, if you guys haven't seen it, on Netflix, there's going to be a new documentary
00:06:14
about America's Next Top Model, like The Rise and Fall. I have been waiting for this my entire life.
00:06:20
>> I was actually so upset. I went to watch something on Netflix the other day and
00:06:24
it was like like huge and I was like, "Oh my god, it's already on." And I went to watch it. No, I believe it's February
00:06:29
16th. >> Yeah. >> So, we'll be covering it in our bonus episode. >> It's on Netflix. We're going to talk
00:06:33
about it. >> That'll be out February 27th. >> The bonus episode. Yeah. >> Might I suggest, too, because I am
00:06:38
actually wanting to read this. Um, Mr. Jay wrote a book. >> Oh, really? >> All about it. Yeah. [ __ ] The wig, the
00:06:46
[ __ ] and the meltdown. And then the little tagline is The Devil Also Wears Fake Shoes. That's amazing. So, or cheap
00:06:52
shoes. >> I want to watch that. >> Yeah, I would um I would order that book for sure because I want to read that.
00:06:57
>> Yeah, I'm going to read the book. I'm going to watch the documentary. We'll be
00:07:00
talking all about it cuz I've been actually watching old episodes of America's Next Top Model and that [ __ ]
00:07:05
will >> that'll that'll change you watching that. >> Uh so many misunderstood gals I feel
00:07:11
like throughout their Jade the Supermodel. >> I always thought she was kind of misunderstood though. Her and Camille.
00:07:18
>> I don't remember Camille. She's from like an earlier season if you like. There were times when she had like, you
00:07:24
know, moments, but I thought they were like really hard on her confidence. Like she was just a confident
00:07:31
>> bad [ __ ] >> Well, the part of that show was that bothered me. >> They didn't want you to be confident.
00:07:36
Like everyone always thought she was mean and I was like, "No, I think she's just like
00:07:39
>> It's funny, too, cuz I think you and I were watching one recently where it was
00:07:43
um is it Melrose and Carrie D?" The final like uh two. I thought Mel Rose was pretty misunderstood too. Like I
00:07:51
remember watching it when I was little and being like, "Ew, Mel Rose is such a bitch."
00:07:54
>> And then I watched as an adult and I was like, "Mel Rose is just kind of funny."
00:07:58
And I think they don't get it. >> I think when you get older, you just watch it and you're like,
00:08:02
>> "Wow, everybody's so [ __ ] like up in their have their panties in a wad over
00:08:06
like the smallest things." It's like I don't know. >> Those girls. Do you remember Molly who's
00:08:11
like famously they gave her that crazy Oh yeah. like basically like they gave her a weave but it like pulled her hair
00:08:18
out because her hair wasn't strong enough for it. >> Um she's on Southern Charm now.
00:08:22
>> Oh, I did hear that. I did hear that. >> She is so [ __ ] funny. I love that.
00:08:26
>> She's hilarious. So here we go. We'll start talking about all that stuff. >> Yeah. She Oh, she found her. She found
00:08:32
the weave. She still has it. >> She found the weave. >> She smelled it on live camera.
00:08:35
>> Ew. >> Yeah. >> Uh let's save that for the bonus episode. Yeah. Uh but yeah, so stay
00:08:41
tuned for that. We'll be talking about all the craziness behind that. >> Yeah, I think that's all we have. Yeah,
00:08:46
I think that's all the business. Um go buy the butcher legacy. Butcherleacy.com.
00:08:51
You can get it anywhere you want. >> Uh more signed editions >> there. I added more signed editions at
00:08:56
Barnes & Noble. You can order online. You can get them in, you know, order them in the store. Whatever you want to
00:09:00
do. Barnes & Noble signed editions. Been signing them. There's a box in front of
00:09:04
me that I am currently signing. Oh, also Mikey added in Tokara and Eva who are also misunderstood and I fully agree. I
00:09:13
love them. >> Eva was famously on the Real Housewives of Atlanta. >> Yeah, but again, we'll talk about it
00:09:18
then when Yeah. Other other girls who were misunderstood. >> But yeah, so go get the book. Go
00:09:24
pre-order it. Sign copies if you want. Y all kinds of copies. Go get it. >> So yeah, we got to get back into into
00:09:31
Dennis here, unfortunately. Um >> but you know what? We're finishing today. Yeah, exactly. We're going to
00:09:38
finish today. He's going to get what's coming to him. >> Good. >> But man, he's going to get
00:09:45
>> he's going to keep going down this weird path. >> You said he killed more people.
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>> Yeah. He wasn't done. Um, so when we last talked to you in part two, he was starting to flush pieces of people down
00:09:56
the toilet. >> Yeah. >> Uh, yeah. >> Which is which is weird in like every way. It could be weird. And it's also
00:10:05
very like what were you thinking? >> I think at this point he was not thinking. >> Yeah, I don't think he's thinking very
00:10:11
straight. >> I think he's just like losing it. >> He's just trying to get out of it. So in
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May 1982, his trend of very erratic behavior and kind of increasing like the risks he was taking, like he didn't seem
00:10:26
to be thinking things through very well. Um it continued. Uh he met 21-year-old Carl Stodd at a local pub and invited
00:10:34
him back to his apartment. Like so many of his previous victims. Um Carl was very vulnerable at the time. He had just
00:10:42
been dumped and was experiencing a lot of depression as a result. >> Uh back at the apartment, the two of
00:10:49
them started drinking and appar This This seems to happen a lot at his apartment. He passed out.
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>> He passed out cuz I he was definitely drugging people. had to have been because all of them are passing out.
00:11:01
>> And he passed out on an open sleeping bag on the floor. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he later he survived.
00:11:08
>> Oh. >> Cuz he later told uh the court, "I woke up feeling something around my neck. My
00:11:13
head was hurting and I couldn't breathe properly and I wondered what it was." >> Oh god.
00:11:17
>> So he could hear Dennis's voice and this is so scary. When he woke up, he was
00:11:22
kind of out of it. Couldn't breathe. like was kind of panicking a little and he said he could just hear Dennis's
00:11:27
voice almost in a whisper saying, "Stay still, stay still." >> Over and over >> as he fumbled with the zipper on the
00:11:35
sleeping bag. And it occurred to him he might have gotten tangled in the cord on
00:11:40
the sleeping bag. And maybe Dennis is trying to help him out of it cuz he wasn't saying it like he was saying it
00:11:45
very like >> like gently. You know what I mean? So he passed out again a few moments later and
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when he came too he was cold and could hear the sound of water. He woke up in the bathtub. He said I knew I was in the
00:11:58
water and he was trying to drown me. He kept pushing me under the water. The third time I came up and I said no more.
00:12:05
Please no more. And he pushed me under again. >> Oh. >> So he's like begging him to stop.
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>> And that just makes you wonder what everybody else said too. >> And then he didn't listen to any of
00:12:14
them. >> Right. >> So some amount of time passed. He's not sure how much. When Carl woke up again,
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>> and he said when he woke up, he was laying on Dennis's couch >> and Dennis's dog, Bleep, remember Bleep?
00:12:27
>> He's had his He's had Bleep there this time. He >> had Bleep there the whole time. And
00:12:30
Bleep is licking Carl's face. >> Poor Bleep is probably so stressed out. >> Yeah. And Carl was very weak, but was
00:12:36
able to stand. And when he looked at himself in the mirror, he saw that he had a deep red mark around his neck and
00:12:42
several blood vessels in his eyes had burst. >> Oh god. >> Yeah. According to Dennis, Carl had
00:12:48
become tangled in the sleeping bag and the cord wrapped around his neck causing him to choke.
00:12:53
>> Yeah. >> I was like, "Well, thrashing around in there like a toddler." >> Yeah. No.
00:12:57
>> And he had brought him in the bath, he said, as an effort to resuscitate him.
00:13:02
And since then, Dennis said he'd been trying to keep him warm with blankets and with heat from his own body.
00:13:08
>> Ew. No, thank you. >> Yeah. It was only later during the trial that Carl learned that Dennis had in
00:13:15
fact thought he'd killed him in the bathtub and he'd taken him out to the living room and positioned him in the on
00:13:20
the couch to dry his body just as he done the other victims. >> Oh my god. >> So he thought he was posing a dead body
00:13:26
there. >> Yep. >> Which also tells you how [ __ ] faint his pulse must have been.
00:13:31
>> Exactly. >> Wow. >> It was while he was drying him that he realized Carl was still alive. So, he
00:13:36
started rubbing his limbs and wrapping him in blankets to keep him warm. It's very unclear why Dennis chose not to
00:13:43
kill Carl in that moment. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know if it's because he didn't think he could finish it and he
00:13:50
was worried he was going to be able to say he tried to kill me. Like this would be the end of him.
00:13:54
>> So, it's like, "Oh, no. I'm I'm just trying to save you." >> Yeah. He's got to use this story to be
00:13:58
like, "Well, I was trying to help you." But it's like, "No, he as you pulled him
00:14:01
out of the water, he said, "Please stop. No more." And you pushed him back down.
00:14:04
Obviously, you didn't think he was dead. Two months later, in June, Dennis met 27year-old Graham Allen while the while
00:14:12
Graham was hailing a cab on the street. Like some of the other murders, the details of this one are a little hazy.
00:14:18
And Dennis is a bullshitter. Yeah, of course. >> Um, he claims not to remember a lot of
00:14:23
the specifics of this. He did say, and this really like breaks my heart, he says the thing that Graham wanted more
00:14:30
than anything else was something to eat. >> Oh. So he said he made him a big omelette, but after that all of a sudden
00:14:38
he can't really remember exactly how this happened. >> He remembers the one nice thing that he
00:14:42
did. >> He It becomes a mix of reality and fantasy here because he says, "I noticed
00:14:48
he was sitting there and suddenly he appeared to be asleep or unconscious." >> Oh, that's crazy.
00:14:52
>> I thought he must have been choking on it, but I didn't hear him choking. He was indeed deeply unconscious.
00:14:58
>> That's nuts how he just unconscious. Dennis claims he doesn't quite remember what happened next, only that he must
00:15:04
have strangled Graham Allen. Whoa. >> He said, "I bent forward and I think I strangled him. I can't remember at this
00:15:11
moment what I used." I remember going forward and I remember he was dead. If the omelette killed him, I don't know.
00:15:17
But anyway, in going forward, I intended to kill him. An omelette doesn't leave red marks on a neck. I suppose it must
00:15:23
have been me. >> Wow. Just >> that's how flippant he is. to try to make it funny. Like
00:15:28
>> like an omelette doesn't leave red marks on this, so I guess it was me. Go [ __ ]
00:15:32
yourself. >> Yeah, get a [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] >> Also, he probably drugged the omelet.
00:15:36
>> Yeah, that's what I think. If he's Yeah. Now, Dennis kept Graham Allen's body in
00:15:41
the bathtub for 3 days before decomposition made it impossible. and he dismembered Graham Allen's remains and
00:15:48
disposed of them as he had John Howell's body, hiding the larger body parts in various spaces around his apartment and
00:15:55
flushing the smaller bones, organs, and flesh down the toilet. >> Okay. >> More than 6 months would pass before he
00:16:02
would commit his next and final murder. >> Okay. >> Now, on the night of January 26th, 1983,
00:16:09
Dennis met 20-year-old Steven Sinclair, and he invited him back to his apartment. Sinclair had spent a lot of
00:16:15
his time on the streets. He was a bit of a rogue most of his life. Had a lot going on.
00:16:19
>> Yeah. >> Um given that he had spent a lot of his young life on the streets and had didn't
00:16:24
have a fixed address, didn't have a job, it's easy to see how someone like Dennis
00:16:28
could have lured him back to his apartment just with the promise of food, money, anything else.
00:16:34
>> That night, Steven's friends recalled seeing him walking towards the train station with quote a strange man who
00:16:40
they later identified as Dennis Nielson. But they had assumed at the time that he
00:16:44
was tricking for money. >> Sure. >> That's a quote. Yeah. >> Um and didn't want to disturb him.
00:16:49
>> Yeah. >> You know, >> understandable. >> Months later, Dennis confessed that he
00:16:53
had gone with Sinclair to McDonald's nearby where he bought him a hamburger. Then they went back by train to Muzwell
00:16:59
Hill and walked to Dennis's apartment. Once there, they had a few drinks and they listened to the Who's Tommy on
00:17:06
stereo until a little past 900 p.m. At one point, Sinclair excused himself and went to the bathroom. And Dennis said
00:17:14
that he assumed he was injecting drugs, which I was like, I think you're just covering for your own thing.
00:17:19
>> Yeah, exactly. >> And when he came back, he sat down in a chair and passed out almost instantly.
00:17:24
Everyone's passing out in Dennis's apartment. >> That's just so nuts that that happens to
00:17:28
everyone who goes there. Now, he gave a very brutal account of Sinclair's murder
00:17:33
at the court hearing um and at the time of his arrest, but he was unusually cy about the crime at first. He didn't want
00:17:42
to talk much about it. Um he said, "I remember nothing else until I woke up the next morning. Steven was still in
00:17:48
the armchair and he was dead. On the floor was a piece of string with a tie attached to it."
00:17:53
>> Crazy. >> He completely removes himself from actively hurting these men. >> Yeah.
00:17:58
Now, Dennis claimed that he had no intention of harming the young man and had only quote concern and affection for
00:18:05
his future and the pain and plight of his life. I bet Dennis sat in the living room with the body for several hours
00:18:12
before finally carrying Sinclair to the bathroom and placing his body in the tub
00:18:17
to begin his ritual cleaning. Now, once he was finished, he brought him to the bedroom and laid him in the bed. And
00:18:24
there he just caressed him for some time before falling asleep next to him. >> Okay. He said, "I never looked at him.
00:18:32
No sex, just a feeling of oneness. >> It wouldn't be sex anyway. That would be rape.
00:18:36
>> That would be rape." The next morning, Dennis dressed his body in his own clothing and placed him in the chair in
00:18:41
the living room where he stayed for several days. >> Wow. >> He just put him in a chair in his living
00:18:47
room. He did this so several times. Yeah. >> Put men in a chair in his living room dead and just left
00:18:56
them there for days at a time. Just walked in, went to work. >> Yeah. >> And came home.
00:19:02
>> Didn't think about it at all while he was at work. >> Nope. Later he would talk about how when
00:19:07
he decided to kill Steven, he had knelt in front of him as they listened to Tommy and he said, "Oh, Steven, here I
00:19:14
go again." >> Oh, that's what he said to this. Like what? which also makes you wonder the
00:19:20
like just eerie things he said to everybody else that >> he just said weird [ __ ] and then he
00:19:25
strangled him with a string and a necktie. And after that, now after that what had happened, this is when he got
00:19:31
into more detail during the court hearing. After he had killed Steven, he put him in bed and then he arranged
00:19:38
mirrors around the bed and just laid with him in the bed looking at them at all different angles.
00:19:48
He is on another level. Like this is >> psychosis. Yeah. It's like to the nth degree.
00:19:58
>> Deeply, deeply ill. This is [ __ ] you see in horror movies that you're like, "Wow,
00:20:03
they went too far." >> Yeah. You're like, "That's wild." Like, "Why would you do that?"
00:20:06
>> God. >> Now, later after his arrest, uh, Dennis would become strangely like almost like
00:20:12
philosophical about this murder, speaking of it like in these weird, bizarre, and kind of romantic terms
00:20:19
almost like a in his kind of romantic terms. He said, "I believe he is me or part of me. How can you feel remorse for
00:20:27
taking pains into yourself? I loved him much more than anyone else he had ever met in his 20 years.
00:20:33
>> Don't know that >> the image of the sleeping Steven is and will be with me for all of my life.
00:20:40
>> Oh, that's so dark. And to say that knowing that he has family out there. >> Yeah.
00:20:45
>> Like that's that's just another level of predator. >> Yeah. and like stealing that from
00:20:52
>> Yeah. saying I love and you knew him for how many hours? >> And then killed him.
00:20:56
>> And you're saying that you loved him more than anyone in his life >> and then saying like I'll always have
00:21:02
that image. >> Yeah. That's >> cuz that's also saying to that his family like that's something you can't
00:21:09
have back >> and it's like that is so deeply evil. >> It is evil. >> Now Dennis's perspective on this
00:21:16
particular murder is definitely unusual. He describes none of his other murders quite like this one. Um, in fact, he
00:21:24
went from having no recollection of the murder at all to being that like philosophical about it and that like
00:21:30
weirdly cruel about it. >> Very strange. He described it almost like a transcendent experience.
00:21:36
>> Yeah. Transcendent, excuse me. >> Yeah. Like with the mirrors and everything too. Just he treated it like
00:21:41
a project. >> Yeah. It's very strange. Now, at this point, when he was talking about it like
00:21:46
that, he was already arrested and he had confessed. >> Okay? >> So, it is possible that he was setting
00:21:51
himself up further for an insanity defense. >> But it's also positive that there was
00:21:56
something about Steven that was just different than his other victims. >> Something that reminded Dennis of
00:22:02
himself, maybe like, who knows? Like that there was something there that was >> to say that he felt like he was a part
00:22:08
of him. Yeah. as his own personality almost being >> he'd only known him for a few hours and
00:22:16
he couldn't possibly have known anything about his life or the people in it. >> Right.
00:22:19
>> Um it's very strange. >> Now about a week later Dennis dismembered Steven Sinclair's remains
00:22:26
and disposed of them in the same way that he had before. Um but this time he when he tried to flush pieces of his
00:22:33
body down the toilet, it didn't go as smoothly as the previous disposal. And in the weeks after this, Dennis's
00:22:40
neighbors started complaining about the drains in the apartment, saying they were all backed up
00:22:45
>> and didn't seem to be draining properly. >> Oh, >> yeah. In fact, it was Dennis himself who
00:22:52
in early February wrote a letter to his landlord on behalf of himself and the other tenants of the building demanding
00:23:00
that something be done about it as soon as possible. He did it cuz he wanted the problem to
00:23:06
go away. >> Yeah. Now, on the afternoon of February 5th, after hearing nothing from their
00:23:11
landlord, one of the residents in Dennis's building, Jim Alcock, finally grew tired of waiting for a response,
00:23:18
and he decided to call a plumber himself. He was like, "We'll [ __ ] do it." It took a few days, but on the
00:23:23
evening of February 8th, a plumber from Dino Rod, arrived at 23 Cranley Gardens to come help the problem. The plumber,
00:23:31
Michael Katran, was relatively new to this job and didn't have a lot of experience, especially with like complex
00:23:37
drainage problems. But after taking like a little bit of a look at the problem in
00:23:40
the building, >> sorry, I don't really know if anybody was equipped to deal with this issue,
00:23:44
>> this particular problem. No. So, he kind of took a look at the problem inside the
00:23:48
building and he knew enough to know the source of the problem was likely outside
00:23:52
the house under the ground. >> Um, although it had already grown dark, he agreed to take a look. So with Jim
00:23:58
Alcock holding a flashlight for him, he went to the side of the house and removed the manhole cover providing
00:24:04
access to the sewer and he descended the ladder into the manhole. >> Oh my. >> As soon as they were down in the sewer,
00:24:11
both of them were hit with a terrible odor. Now, a sewer does have a terrible odor,
00:24:17
>> so that's not strange, but it's usually like a waste. Poop. Yeah. Uh, but Michael Katran said, "I may not have
00:24:24
been in the game for long, but I know this isn't shit." >> What a quote. >> That's what he said. That's a quote.
00:24:30
>> There was also a pool of sludge on the floor about 8 in thick. >> Oh, [ __ ] Containing about 30 or 40
00:24:37
pieces of flesh, grayish white in color and of various sizes. >> Oh my. Using the flashlight, Michael
00:24:44
followed the pipes back to the ones connected to the house, which was leaking the same sludgy substance that
00:24:49
was covering the floor. Can you imagine finding this out that like your neighbor
00:24:55
was flushing murdered victims down the toilet >> and that your backed up drains were
00:25:02
containing pieces of people >> that and just knowing that this was all happening while you like I think I
00:25:08
mentioned it in part one or two like we just go about our day >> and people are doing this. I can't
00:25:13
imagine finding out I was in the same home >> sharing a wall. >> Sharing walls potentially or like I had
00:25:19
like >> walking by him. >> You know, maybe he was your upstairs neighbor and you had to do the uh the
00:25:24
broom trick >> or you just held the held the door >> held the door for him. Yep.
00:25:28
>> Yeah. >> Got his mail once. >> Yeah. Probably saw the victims and didn't realize it.
00:25:33
>> Yep. >> Now, having found the source of the problem, Michael called his supervisor
00:25:37
to report the discovery, saying that he thought it might have been a dead body. By then, most of the residents had
00:25:43
crowded around and as he was on the phone and overheard this conversation. >> Oh [ __ ]
00:25:48
>> So after hanging up, um, Michael turned to Dennis Nelson who was there listening
00:25:54
to the conversation and asked whether he had a dog >> and Dennis said, "Yeah, he did." And the
00:25:59
plumber asked whether he tried to flush dog meat down the drain like like food. >> Yeah.
00:26:04
>> And Dennis said, "No, I haven't." So he didn't even try to lie about it. >> Yeah. It's unclear why if he was the
00:26:11
source of the problem, he would have reported the drain blockage to the landlord and insisted something be done
00:26:16
about it cuz he had to know they were going to figure out it was human remains. Maybe he was just so far into this
00:26:22
fantasy that he didn't that didn't occur to him that they would figure it out. Well, I and it's possible he was hoping
00:26:29
that by joining in on the outrage that suspicion wouldn't fall back on him. He might not have known how specifically
00:26:35
that pipes would go directly to his like that they could trace it back. >> And I think probably he wanted the
00:26:41
problem to be cleared up so that he could continue this because he can't >> he can't do anything anymore killing
00:26:46
because he doesn't have a way of disposing of >> he already ran out of space in his
00:26:50
apartment and realized he couldn't do that. So he's resorting to this. >> Now around midnight that night, Dennis
00:26:56
concocted a plan that he was hoping would take the the heat off him. Carrying a flashlight in a garbage bag,
00:27:02
he rent down into the sewer at midnight and collected the large pieces of flesh.
00:27:08
>> This can't even be [ __ ] real. >> No. Which he then brought to the surface and dumped over the garden wall into the
00:27:14
hedge on the other side. >> That's his big plan. >> Oh, there's more. He said, quote, "I had
00:27:21
planned to go to the supermarket or Kentucky Fried Chicken and p purchase a few pounds weight of chicken pieces.
00:27:27
These I would soak, cut up into smaller chunks as that removed, and then he would place them in the sewer,
00:27:35
>> and just make everybody think that it's KFC. He figured that by replacing human
00:27:39
flesh with raw chicken, he hoped the men from Dino Rod would quickly notice their
00:27:44
mistake and not wanting to appear foolish, wouldn't call the police. >> Like, babe, when somebody smells a dead
00:27:49
body, they know what they've smelled and it doesn't smell like raw chicken. Now,
00:27:53
Dennis's plan was to wake up early in the morning and place the chicken in the sewer. But after removing the human
00:28:00
remains, he went to his apartment and started drinking heavily. The next morning, he slept in. Uh-oh.
00:28:07
>> Oops. So, Michael returned to the property, the the plumber with and he came with his supervisor, Gary Wheeler,
00:28:14
and together the two men went down into the sewer, and Michael noticed the manhole cover was in a different
00:28:19
position than he'd left it the night before. And when they got to the bottom of the ladder, they found that the
00:28:24
remains were gone. >> Uhhuh. >> Convinced that someone had removed them, Wheeler called the police.
00:28:29
>> Cuz you're also thinking all of these people were gathered around and heard say it's a dead body. It's got to be one
00:28:35
of them. >> In the meantime, Michael continued investigating the pipes and found that
00:28:39
impacted into one of the pipes was more flesh and several pieces of small bone. >> Well, that was my other assumption, too,
00:28:46
is it's like that whatever Dennis collected had drained. >> Yeah. Like you he didn't think of what
00:28:51
was in the pipes. He clearly had no understanding. >> Something was blocking the pipes.
00:28:54
>> I said the other day that I don't really understand pipes. I I understand this.
00:28:58
>> You understand this kind of piping? >> I do. Now, while the dino rod men were
00:29:01
in the sewer, Dennis slipped out of the building and went to work just as he did
00:29:05
any other day. >> Wow. >> Just went to work. Yeah. Sitting at his desk, he arranged and rearranged the
00:29:12
objects on the surface. And then he composed a letter that he tucked into a brown envelope and placed in his desk
00:29:17
drawer. He said, "I was sure that I would be arrested when I came home or sometime that evening." Among other
00:29:24
things, the letter said that he should be arrested and if he was found dead, it would not be from suicide.
00:29:30
>> Oh, which is interesting. As Dennis sat at his desk writing, investigators were at the house on
00:29:36
Cranley Gardens investigating the scene. The remains found in the drain had been
00:29:41
removed and sent to be examined at the University of London, where they were confirmed to be human. The flesh
00:29:46
appeared to be from quote the region of the neck and the bones were from the hand and both were almost certainly
00:29:53
male. >> Okay. >> Now, Dennis returned home a little after 5:30 p.m. And as he expected, there was
00:29:59
a detective waiting for him at the door. The man at the door introduced himself as DCI Peter J and told Dennis he was
00:30:06
there about the drains. Dennis acted surprised that a simple drain problem would warrant a call to the police.
00:30:13
I think is like you remember the feeling when you were younger and you were in trouble and like you knew you [ __ ] up
00:30:17
so you were like >> oh [ __ ] like I got to just deal with this. >> Do I Yeah. >> That must be on a galactic level when
00:30:25
you are a serial killer >> and they have found all your victims. >> Like yeah what now upstairs in his apartment Jay
00:30:34
told Dennis that the remains discovered in the sewer and in the drain pipe were human. And uh this prompted another
00:30:42
feigned surprise reaction from Dennis. He said, "Oh my goodness." >> Who meanwhile has human remains hidden
00:30:48
around his home at this point in time. >> Yeah, don't worry about that. They'll figure that out. It was immediately
00:30:53
clear to Dennis that they suspected him. >> In fact, they had already traced the
00:30:58
drainage problem directly to his apartment. Uh, so when they asked where the rest of the body was, cuz they just
00:31:04
flat out said it, Dennis didn't bother continuing the charade and just simply told them in plastic bags in the bedroom
00:31:11
wardrobe. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. >> Just drops me so immediately. >> You got me. And where's the rest of the
00:31:22
body? Imagine it. Imagine asking that and him just being like >> in plastic bags in the bedroom wardrobe.
00:31:29
You're just like, "What? >> This is so wild." >> It sounds like fiction. >> Yeah, it does. DCI Jay and his partner
00:31:37
went with Dennis into the bedroom, but declined to open the wardrobe, saying the smell was confirmation enough.
00:31:43
Instead, Jay turned to Dennis and asked if there was anything else he wanted to show them or anything he wanted to say.
00:31:49
And Dennis said, "It's a long story. It goes back a long time. I'll tell you everything. I want to get it off my
00:31:54
chest. Not here, but at the police station." What the [ __ ] >> So, at the station, Jay sat down with
00:32:02
Dennis in an interview room and began the interrogation. And it was obvious he was dealing with a murder, but he had
00:32:08
>> no idea. >> No idea what was to come. So, Jay just asked, "Are we talking about one body or
00:32:14
two?" >> Oh, >> and what did Dennis say? >> And he said at first he was expecting
00:32:19
maybe this was a crime of passion or something of that nature. One body or two. And he was absolutely stunned when
00:32:26
Dennis looked at him and said, "15 or 16 since 1978." >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Like that would be the shock of the
00:32:35
century. >> Like a slap across your face. >> Truly. >> Now, in the wake of his arrest, the
00:32:40
shock and horror among the police press and people in London could be felt everywhere. There were so many
00:32:47
unbelievable aspects of the case, like we've been saying, that as soon as one had managed to process one thing, some
00:32:53
new hideous detail would come out, right? >> Not only had Dennis Nelson killed 15
00:32:58
people in 5 years, he had done so while being completely undetected, >> and no one ever seemed to notice that
00:33:06
his victims had even gone missing. That's what's even sad. >> Heartbreaking. >> Then, of course, there was the specifics
00:33:11
about the murders themselves. brutal strangulations, drownings, the ages of the victims, the necroilia, the awful
00:33:20
dismemberments. I mean, it's grotesque. >> It is. It's a lot. >> Although he gave a full confession to 15
00:33:26
murders, the prosecutor's office faced a significant challenge in charging him for the full extent of his crimes
00:33:32
because they couldn't identify all the victims. >> That happened so often. That's so sad.
00:33:37
>> In fact, even Dennis didn't know the names of everyone he'd killed. >> Well, even his answer, 15 or 16.
00:33:42
>> He didn't even know. He would refer to some of them by nicknames that he'd given them before or after their deaths.
00:33:48
In the end, only eight of his victims were identified. >> So, half were still missing. Half, like
00:33:55
essentially. >> By the following week, investigators had gathered enough info to charge him with
00:34:00
the murder of Steven Holmes. But the news of the charges was quickly followed by the public comment from DCIGJ, who
00:34:07
assured the public, "Our inquiries are by no means complete." So they're like, "We're not just charging him with one."
00:34:13
When the charges were read aloud in court, Dennis simply looked up at the judge and said, "Thank you."
00:34:19
Wow. The next day, February 13th, more charges were brought against Dennis. This time for the murders of Kenneth
00:34:25
Okendon, excuse me, Martin Duffy, William Southerntherland, and Malcolm Barlo. He was also charged with the
00:34:31
attempted murders of Paul Knobs and Douglas Stewart. Oh. >> Who he had attempted to strangle in 1981
00:34:37
and 1980. Mhm. Following the additional charges, Dennis was removed from the local jail where he was being held and
00:34:44
he was brought to Brixton prison, which we know well >> talked about that many times.
00:34:47
>> While investigators diligently worked to build their case against Dennis Nilson,
00:34:52
Dennis sat in the cell writing and pondering his own crimes. Throughout most of his life, he'd compartmentalized
00:34:58
everything. Yeah. Living in one very disappointing real world while simultaneously building a big grandiose
00:35:05
fantasy world in his head. and his time in jail, that was no different. Now, having given up and confessed, he was
00:35:12
beginning to play a new role in his mind. And this role was that of a tragic monster.
00:35:18
>> Okay. >> From a very early age, he had hoped to be to one day discover that he was
00:35:22
special and remarkable. Unfortunately, that turned out to be true, just not in the way he had originally hoped.
00:35:28
>> Yeah, he's certainly remarkable. >> I can think of lots of remarks. >> Yeah. Among the things he found most
00:35:34
surprising after his arrest was the extent to which the public was interested in his crimes and the case.
00:35:39
>> Okay. >> He he later wrote, "I'm always surprised and truly amazed that anyone can be
00:35:44
attracted by the macob. The public fascination with types, rare types like myself, plagues them with the mystery of
00:35:51
why and how a living person can actually do things which may be only those dark images and act secretly within them. No
00:35:59
one wants to believe ever that I am just an ordinary man come to an extraordinary
00:36:04
and overwhelming conclusion. >> And here we are. Here we all are listening to Morbid.
00:36:09
>> Exactly. He's saying that like Yeah, that's true. >> We all want to know why the [ __ ] you are
00:36:13
that way. >> Well, and you're not just an ordinary guy. >> No, you're not. And you can't be like,
00:36:16
I'm just an ordinary guy. >> I'm just like you. >> I've met a lot of ordinary men. They
00:36:21
sound nothing like you. >> Exactly. Now, if Dennis had managed to hide any abnormality or symptoms of
00:36:26
mental illness throughout his life, it's likely because no one ever really paid him much attention. That was the
00:36:32
problem. Now that he was locked up in Brixton and was a source of a lot of curiosity, certain aspects of his
00:36:38
personality suddenly became noteworthy. >> In his early days at Brixton, Dennis was
00:36:44
uncharacteristically defiant. He would refuse to wear his prison uniform and would become argumentative with his sta
00:36:50
with the staff and his lawyers who were provided to him through the legal aid program. At one point in July, when his
00:36:57
chamber pot was overflowing, Dennis threw the contents through the bars, some of which splashed onto several
00:37:04
guards. >> Oh. What followed was a violent exchange between Dennis and the guards,
00:37:10
>> during which his glasses were broken, a tooth was knocked out, and he received a
00:37:14
black eye. Maybe don't throw your [ __ ] on people. >> You throw your [ __ ] at me. That's
00:37:17
happening. >> Yeah. [ __ ] gets like I'm sorry gnarly when you when you throw [ __ ]
00:37:20
>> I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm above if you throw [ __ ] at me punching you in the face.
00:37:24
>> Yeah. >> In the weeks that followed, Dennis became increasingly destructive. He tore
00:37:29
up court documents that were sent to his cell. He destroyed his personal items. And he als he he said this um was in
00:37:36
order to have something to do, read a [ __ ] book. Yeah. At the same time, he was also becoming increasingly paranoid.
00:37:44
He would accuse the governor of stealing his postage and being suspicious of other inmates. He was also developing
00:37:50
this intense bitterness that in the wake of his arrest, all the good work he'd done in his life through the military
00:37:56
and civil service had become completely overshadowed by murder. Dah. Once you get to the point where you are defiling
00:38:05
corpses by them, you're a necrophiliac. You're literally bathing people, chopping them
00:38:13
up, either keeping parts of them in your home or all of them for days, and then flushing them down your toilet. I don't
00:38:19
give a [ __ ] what you did for the military. >> Wait a minute. Pristine military record,
00:38:23
though. >> Don't care, doll. Don't care. >> How? And that that just has to tell you
00:38:29
that his brain works differently because how the [ __ ] do you rationalize that? I
00:38:33
was such a good person in the military. >> That feels very narcissistic, too. >> It does. I'm not diagnosing him as
00:38:38
narcissistic. I'm just saying it has a vibe of narcissist to me. >> Yeah, absolutely.
00:38:42
>> Because he's like, "Well, look at all these amazing things I've done." And you're just like,
00:38:46
>> I do think, and like I'm going out on a whim here, but I do think most serial
00:38:50
killers have at least narcissistic tendencies because even to believe that you will get away with it is
00:38:56
narcissistic in and of itself. And to think you have the right to take another person's life. You have a weird god
00:39:03
complex that you think you should be able to test out who lives and who dies and when they live and when they die.
00:39:10
>> And I just love that he's like it's like you become you commit necroilia. I'm
00:39:16
sorry doll. Any good thing >> that's going to become your defining characteristic. You're not going to get
00:39:22
away from that. You could cure world hunger and people will still be stuck on the fact that you're a necroilia.
00:39:27
>> Exactly. No matter what good you do in your life, you're a necro. It's like a
00:39:30
pedophile. You're a pedophile. No matter what rank of office you tend to get to or what kind of success that you get to,
00:39:38
you're always a pedophile. >> Yep. >> You're always a [ __ ] monster. And that's the way it is.
00:39:42
>> Period. 10 toes down. >> 10 toes down. You're a pedophile. Necriliac murderer. That's your defining
00:39:48
characteristic. Now, he wrote letters to journalists like Brian Masters urging them to not
00:39:54
just focus on the murders. When you write about this case, he said, "Display the clean linen as well as the dirty."
00:40:01
>> No, but you don't get to decide either at this point. >> Yeah. You made the choices, babe.
00:40:07
>> Now, through all the post-arrest chaos of those early months in prison, Dennis
00:40:12
had also come to develop several theories as to the reasons for his crimes. >> Oh. Initially, he seemed as bewildered
00:40:19
as anyone for how he could have done such terrible things. Then he placed the blame on society in general for
00:40:24
marginalizing his victims and placing them in his path. >> Are you [ __ ] kidding me?
00:40:31
>> Yeah. >> He said this was >> this was just like a universal. >> He said, "Well, [ __ ] You put these
00:40:37
marginalized people in my path. What was I supposed to do? Not murder them?" Like
00:40:41
that is literally his argument. No, you're you're >> you put this person who didn't have a
00:40:46
home or food and was in front of me. What was I supposed to do? Help them, not murder them.
00:40:52
>> Like, who do you what do you expect of me? >> Hello. Like, that's some barbaric [ __ ]
00:40:57
is to sit there and be like, "What did you expect?" >> The fact that they >> expected anything else than what you
00:41:02
did, Dennis. >> The fact that he's still referred to as the kindly killer after he was like,
00:41:05
"Ew, marginalized people in my path." >> Like, gross. >> What am I going to do with them?
00:41:09
>> Just I'm You murder them. That's what you do. Like what? He's bonkers. Bonkers. Truly bonkers. But finally and
00:41:17
almost certainly after speaking with a psychiatrist, he settled on the explanation he would stick with pretty
00:41:23
much for the rest of his life. He said, "I believe my offenses are motivated by emotional disturbance under unique
00:41:29
conditions of extreme mental pressure which release areas in the subconscious when I have lost control."
00:41:34
>> No, >> I guarantee you he came up with that completely by himself and that a psychiatrist did not tell him that. take
00:41:41
the mental [ __ ] pressure out of it. You didn't kill because you were pressured mentally and you killed
00:41:47
because you are disturbed mentally. >> Well, and in one breath, so before he sees a psychiatrist, he's like, "I don't
00:41:52
know. You put a marginalized person in my path. What do I What am I supposed to do?" And then he sees a psychiatrist and
00:41:57
he's like, "hm, I believe my offenses were motivated by emotional disturbances under unique conditions of extreme
00:42:02
mental pressure which release in the subconscious and I have lost control." >> Yeah. No,
00:42:06
>> you're just paring what they said at you. >> You had me uneotionally disturbed. you
00:42:09
lost mental pressure >> cuz that's that's taking it off of himself. >> But then this is what's interesting.
00:42:17
It's interesting that you landed on that cuz he said, "Mine is a disease peculi peculiar to me which I should have
00:42:23
sought to cure or control." >> Yes. >> There is no excuse for taking the lives of 15 innocent people and trying to kill
00:42:30
eight others. The buck stops here. >> Yes. >> So it's like what? >> Which one is it though?
00:42:35
>> Which one is it? Now, although he had confessed to the murders, there was still the question of sanity in uh in
00:42:41
sentencing to be conf. I totally get that. >> Uh Dennis Nelson's trial began at the
00:42:45
Old Bailey, which again we're very familiar with. >> Why do I love the Old Bailey? Never been
00:42:49
there in my life. Love it. >> Love the old Bailey. >> Love it. >> Uh it it began in late October with Alan
00:42:55
Green arguing on behalf of the crown and Ivan Lawrence acting as the defense. Now, given that Dennis had already
00:43:02
confessed, Green spent a lot of the opening statement detailing the murders in Dennis's own words, including all the
00:43:09
details of the crimes and the disposal of the bodies. Green noted that Dennis had confessed to feeling as though he
00:43:15
was quote a quasi god who quote could do anything I wanted. >> Interesting. In that fantasy world, it
00:43:24
does seem that way. >> Oh, he felt like a god. >> Yeah. Also like the washing of people
00:43:29
felt feels like it weirdly align with that and the fact that he would >> cuz that's what was so interesting with
00:43:35
uh with him saying like oh you're just going to place these people in front of me who are marginalized and desperate
00:43:41
>> like he acted like he didn't care but he would bring them in to feed them >> right and in one case he even called an
00:43:47
ambulance for somebody and didn't kill them like he killed them the next day but
00:43:52
>> he almost and that's the thing he didn't kill everyone he came in contact with.
00:43:56
So he did act like a quasi god because he was determining who >> lived and who died,
00:44:03
>> right? >> Very weird. Also important to Green's argument was the fact that Dennis had a
00:44:08
pattern and strategy for meeting, luring, and murdering men, >> which he argued was evidence of sound
00:44:14
mind when the crimes were committed, which I I think so. >> Oh, I mean, the disposal in and of
00:44:18
itself. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's wrong. You're disposing. >> You're trying to get rid of it. And it's
00:44:23
like you are luring them in and you clearly have and you've said before I intended to murder this man. So you've
00:44:29
said it >> right >> now. He said the defense says he is guilty of manslaughter because they
00:44:34
raised the defense of diminished uh responsibility. The crown says that even if there was mental abnormality that did
00:44:41
not diminish substantially his mental responsibility for these killings. >> Absolutely. To call that manslaughter is
00:44:47
a [ __ ] travesty. >> Yeah, it really is. Now, in the early days of the trial, several key
00:44:51
investigators were called to testify for the crown, including Peter J. who read aloud several of the letters and notes
00:44:57
sent to him by Dennis Nelson following Dennis's arrest. In one, Dennis attempted to explain his actions,
00:45:03
writing, quote, "At the subconscious root lies a sense of total social isolation, which he did have his whole
00:45:09
life, and a desperate search for sexual identity. I felt repelled by myself and as stated, I have no experience of
00:45:17
sexual penetration for some years. In simple terms, his defense was that his sexual confusion and loneliness were
00:45:24
triggers for committing murder. >> Okay. >> No. >> Yeah. No. >> Um, the defense's position was that
00:45:30
Nilson was only guilty of manslaughter because on some psychological level, he was unaware of what he was doing or at
00:45:36
least unaware of the consequences of his actions. Then why did he hide the bodies?
00:45:40
>> Exactly. in in a way they had a kind of like head start on the prosecution um in
00:45:47
that whatever his motive most people include including those on the jury couldn't imagine a sane rational person
00:45:53
doing anything that he did. So they really did have a head start because they're already going in there being
00:45:58
like this guy wild. Well, but I the tough thing with an insanity thing is an insanity please. A lot of people don't
00:46:05
understand what it like the minutia of it all >> because you can sit there and colloquially we can sit there and go,
00:46:11
"Wow, that's insane." That's insane. >> And it's legally not insane. It's just insane to think about.
00:46:17
>> There's so much more to the legality of that. >> Exactly. >> Now, in fact, even one of his victims
00:46:22
who'd managed to escape testified that murder seemed entirely out of character for the man he'd met.
00:46:28
>> Wow. He was like, it was like a switch. But so many so many killers have that
00:46:33
switch. Like Ted Bundy, we always go back to that example of women who did survive him say his eyes would just
00:46:38
switch. >> And we have evidence of that >> in the courtroom when he was representing himself.
00:46:43
>> There's one clip of him losing it at when he was defending himself >> and he becomes a monster.
00:46:50
>> And you can see that face change. You see those eyes go dark. It's like, you know, that's what
00:46:55
>> it's a trigger. It's a trigger in their brain somewhere. Now, while most people
00:46:59
had spent at least a little time trying to understand his violent behavior, most
00:47:02
were eager to hear from the psychiatrists who'd evaluated him on various occasions. In his testimony for
00:47:08
the crown, Dr. James McKith, a consultant for Broadmore, told the jury that Dennis is quote, "An extreme
00:47:14
egocentric, grandiose in the way he talks about himself with a craving for attention."
00:47:20
In his descriptions of his conversation with Dennis, McKith presented a very different person that had previously
00:47:25
been described in court. According to the psychiatrist, Dennis hadn't killed out of lon loneliness, but out of rage.
00:47:32
It was only when the men showed a lack of interest or a plan to leave, essentially defying Dennis's wishes that
00:47:40
he became violent. And that is the truth. >> Yeah. >> He uh Dennis told McKith, I was giving
00:47:44
them a chance to live. >> That's what he said. >> Wow. >> You have got to listen, but potential
00:47:50
relationships broke down. That's what he said. >> Okay. Okay. So, you said I was giving
00:47:55
them a chance to live, but they wanted to leave. >> Like, he really does have a god complex.
00:48:01
>> Yeah, that's their right, dude. Why don't you understand that? >> So, Dr. McKith diagnosed Dennis with
00:48:05
quote a severe personality disorder of an unspecified type. >> Interesting. >> He couldn't even pinpoint it.
00:48:11
>> I mean, there are so many I think that we don't we just don't have names for yet.
00:48:14
>> And I think it's just an amalgamation of a lot of them, too. >> Agreed. Totally.
00:48:17
>> I can't even pinpoint it. >> Yeah. >> The defense had their own psychiatrist,
00:48:21
of course, Dr. Patrick Gway, who more or less agreed with McKith's diagnosis, telling the jury that Dennis was
00:48:27
constantly under immense pressure that would periodically erupt into quote outbursts of irrational violence, often
00:48:34
with bizarre or quasi sexual features, always apparently motiveless. >> I'm just so interested to to know what
00:48:40
kind of pressure they were talking about. Like, is this internal pressure? >> I think it's internal pressure because
00:48:45
he was unsure of how to act in public. He was socially incompetent. And I just feel like that's such a a write-off, you
00:48:53
know what I mean? >> Where they differed was over whether Dennis was abnormal to the extent that
00:48:58
he couldn't be held fully accountable for his crimes. >> Gway indicated that he believed Dennis
00:49:04
quote suffered from mental abnormality and thus couldn't be held accountable. >> Disagree.
00:49:08
>> But McKe felt that Dennis was not legally insane when he killed. He said, "I think he hoodwinkedked himself."
00:49:14
Referring to his ability to justify his murders. >> Agreed. Both psychiatrists had reviewed
00:49:19
the evidence and spoken with Dennis at length and naturally they both came to the same conclusion. While the facts
00:49:25
spoke to the extent of his personality disorder and the accuracy of the diagnosis, it really didn't do a lot to
00:49:31
settle the question of responsibility. In fact, if anything, it kind of caused more confusion. In an effort to provide
00:49:37
clarity, the defense asked and were granted the opportunity to call a third expert witness, Dr. Paul Bowen. Like
00:49:43
McKith and Gway, Dr. Bowen had spent several hours interviewing Dennis, but he rejected the final diagnosis and had
00:49:51
considerably more clarity around the question of responsibility. >> Okay. >> According to Bowen, Dennis didn't kill
00:49:57
because of a mental disorder. He killed because, quote, "He enjoyed feeling the power over his victims."
00:50:02
>> Yeah, that's what I think. >> On an afternoon in November, Justice Krum Johnson dismissed the jury to their
00:50:08
chambers for deliberation, and their directive was very clear. They were not to determine guilt or innocence, only
00:50:14
whether he was legally sane when he committed the murders. He said, "What is contested is whether in the killing of
00:50:20
the 15 he was guilty of murder or the lesser offense of manslaughter." 12 hours later, the jury came out to
00:50:27
announce they had rejected Dennis's plea of guilty to six counts of manslaughter
00:50:31
and instead found him guilty of five counts of six counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder.
00:50:38
>> Okay. >> So, they gave him murder instead of manslaughter. >> Good. In considering his sentence,
00:50:42
Justice Krum Johnson put a lot of weight on the input from the three expert psychiatrists, all of whom had
00:50:48
acknowledged that quote the severe personality disorder they had diagnosed in Nelson was unlikely to be alleviated
00:50:54
by treatment. Because of that, the justice recommended a sentence of life in prison with a minimum of 25 years
00:51:01
because they had said, "I don't think he can be treated." No. So >> I don't >> cuz you you don't even know what he has.
00:51:06
That how do you treat what you don't know? When the verdict was given and the sentence denounced, Dennis made no
00:51:11
comment and barely seemed to register any emotion. At his mother's house in Scotland, on the other hand, Elizabeth
00:51:17
Scott told reporters, "It is the worst possible verdict. I did think they would give him the benefit of the doubt. I
00:51:23
still think he is innocent of murder. I dread thinking what he is thinking now."
00:51:28
I mean, that's his mom. At the time, the sentence was one of the most severe ever
00:51:32
imposed in the United Kingdom. Wow. What was it? 25 years to life. >> Yeah. That's crazy.
00:51:38
>> Yeah. A minimum of 25 years. Now, after his conviction, uh Dennis was sent to
00:51:43
serve his sentence at HMP Wormwood Scrubs, which is Wormwood Wormwood Scrubs, >> a medium security prison in West London.
00:51:52
>> Although he had the right to appeal the conviction, he chose not to. >> Oh, interesting.
00:51:57
>> Accepting the jury's determination and the sentence from the crowd. I mean, I
00:52:01
think with all the details and I mean, all the gory details of his case, he maybe was smart enough to know that he
00:52:08
wasn't going to >> most of them aren't. I know it's true. Several years later, after the
00:52:12
identification of two more victims, the sentence was upgraded to a whole life tariff, meaning he was required to serve
00:52:19
out the entire sentence, which in this case was life. No more 25 years. >> Wow. Just one month after his sentence,
00:52:26
Nelson was attacked by another inmate who cut his face and chest with a razor, resulting in several dozen stitches.
00:52:33
>> The first of several conflicts with other inmates that would occur in the years that followed. According to one
00:52:38
inmate, quote, "When an inmate like Nelson comes into a prison, it frightens everybody. With him having so long to
00:52:45
serve, he has nothing to lose if he kills anyone in prison." >> Yeah. It's Well, and it's like this
00:52:49
hierarchy thing where and they just got to get rid of them. And when they have no nothing to lose, they're wy.
00:52:55
>> Throughout the course of his incarceration, he struck up several friendships and correspondences with
00:52:59
people outside of prison. >> Always, >> including a relationship with Mark Austin, who helped Dennis collect and
00:53:05
publish his memoir, History of a Drowning Boy. Austin said, "A lot of what's written is just through and
00:53:11
through completely him. When you get to the murders, I just cannot connect it with the real person, but it is with the
00:53:18
real person, so you you should connect that." Um, the book was immediately banned in the UK. Wow. Until 2021 after
00:53:25
Nelson's death when it was eventually released with the agreement that any profits would go to charity.
00:53:30
>> Yeah. >> On May 10th, 2018, Dennis complained of severe stomach pains to prison staff.
00:53:36
>> And soon after he was removed and taken to York Hospital where it was discovered
00:53:40
he had had an aortic aneurysm that had ruptured. >> What is an aortic aneurysm? >> That is a gnarly aneurysm. And you're
00:53:46
not surviving that usually. >> Um, it's your aorta. Oh [ __ ] Why did I not put that together? Well, I feel so
00:53:53
dumb asking that. >> Surgeons at York were able to repair the rupture. >> Wow. >> But complications arose and he died a
00:54:00
short time later. An autopsy was performed and it was determined that Nelson's cause of death was a pulmonary
00:54:05
embolism. His body was cremated and the ashes were given to a family member. >> Wow. Which like Okay. But that's the
00:54:17
story of Dennis Nelson. That was by far one of the gnarliest stories we've ever shared on the pod
00:54:23
>> and so grotesque. So mindbending just like confusing >> and just his cavalier attitude toward
00:54:31
the whole thing. >> Yeah, he's an anomaly of nature. I tell you >> he is his his patterns are fascinating.
00:54:39
That is a very fascinating >> story. Yeah. Heartbreaking. But his mind is strange and scary. Not. He He's not a
00:54:48
lot like anybody we've really talked about before. >> No, he goes back and forth. He's
00:54:53
>> He'll talk about the details of one murder and then claim he doesn't remember the next one. He's an odd duck.
00:54:59
>> He's a very odd duck. All right. So, my fun fact, cuz we certainly need it right
00:55:03
now. >> Yes. >> Deep sea male angler fish are like way smaller. Tiny tiny tiny way smaller than
00:55:09
the females. >> Obsessed. to mate. The male angler fish bites onto the much larger female and
00:55:15
then just dissolves into her body eventually. >> What? Leaving behind a living sack of
00:55:21
sperm that she can use whenever the [ __ ] she decides to lay eggs. Are you kidding? And I say, "Good for her." They
00:55:30
have really figured out sperm donation much better than we have. >> She just absorbs that little [ __ ]
00:55:36
Wow. And then she says, "When I'm financially, emotionally >> and psychologically ready and when I've
00:55:44
done my dancing, like Mikey said, around my purse at the >> clerb >> enough that I feel like I am ready and
00:55:50
responsible to give myself to to my child, >> then I will become pregnant." >> I wonder.
00:55:56
>> Good for her. >> Is it like a one time only on the on the sperm release there?
00:56:00
>> I mean, that's a great question. You mean like do you get to like time release your pregnancy?
00:56:05
>> That's exactly what I mean. I don't know. Like, does she get many pregnancies over the years or does she
00:56:10
just get that one shot of sperm? >> Here's the thing. If I ever run into one, I will. That's the first question
00:56:14
I'm going to ask. >> I'm going to be like, "Girl, shout out. >> Tell me." Thank you. I appreciate that.
00:56:19
Now, I'm curious. I'm about to research angler fish. That's a super fun fact. >> Yeah. Thanks to Debb for that fact.
00:56:24
>> Good fact. >> All right, guys. Well, we hope that you keep listening >> and we hope you
00:56:28
>> keep it weird. >> Keep it as weird as an angler fish, baby. They figured it out.
00:56:33
>> Keep it that weird. >> Yeah. Dance around the purse at your clubb. >> Your your deep sea club.
00:56:38
>> Yeah. Oh, >> I want to go to a actually I don't want to go to a deep sea club. I've probably
00:56:42
been to one and I just didn't even know. >> Woke up the next morning like that was
00:56:47
weird. >> That's where your lore started. Yeah. Honestly, >> my lore started at the deep sea cliff.