00:00:00
Hey weirdos. I'm Ash.
00:00:02
>> And I'm Elena.
00:00:03
>> And this is Morbid.
00:00:07
[music]
00:00:17
This is morbid. What's up, Big Red?
00:00:20
>> Uh, you know, everybody, it's that time
00:00:24
of year.
00:00:25
>> Yeah, we got exposed to co. You sure
00:00:27
[ __ ] did. [music] We had a little bit
00:00:29
outbreak in the office.
00:00:30
>> Yeah, it's there's a lot of nasty things
00:00:33
still going around right now. So, wear
00:00:35
your masks if you feel so inclined.
00:00:37
>> Yeah, you should.
00:00:38
>> Um and and be careful out there.
00:00:40
>> Yeah, I feel
00:00:41
>> Wash your [ __ ] hands.
00:00:42
>> Yeah, wash your goddamn
00:00:44
>> god damn. If more people just wash their
00:00:45
[ __ ] hands,
00:00:46
>> we'd be in much better shape.
00:00:47
>> Like I I'm not even getting into it.
00:00:50
>> It's true. Just wash your hands. You
00:00:52
know, it's how like, you know, the black
00:00:54
plague started.
00:00:55
>> Exactly. it washes its hands or it
00:00:57
spreads disease again.
00:00:58
>> Exactly. I have that sign in my in one
00:01:00
of my bathrooms.
00:01:01
>> That's where I got it from.
00:01:03
>> Yeah. Um but yeah, so there's still a
00:01:07
lot going on in the world. They still
00:01:09
have not located Savannah Guthri's
00:01:11
mother, Nancy.
00:01:12
>> Um and there's a lot of like stuff
00:01:15
happening in the case, but also none at
00:01:17
all. Like it's very,
00:01:19
>> very wild. It's just a very interesting
00:01:22
situation and it's really sad. So, I
00:01:24
just can't stop looking for updates.
00:01:26
>> I feel so bad for that family and I hope
00:01:28
that there's a good update soon.
00:01:30
>> Yeah, that's the thing. I keep looking
00:01:32
being like, please tell me they that
00:01:34
something happened here.
00:01:35
>> Also, just like give them answers
00:01:37
because it must be hell.
00:01:39
>> Not helping any answer.
00:01:41
>> Yeah, I can't imagine that. I'm trying
00:01:43
to think of anything anything else that
00:01:45
I can offer as a fun Oh, there's more um
00:01:49
signed editions of The Butcher Legacy
00:01:52
that were just added. We initially had
00:01:54
like a a big chunk at Barnes & Noble of
00:01:57
signed editions of The Butcher Legacy.
00:01:59
>> Nice.
00:02:00
>> You guys gobbled them up and then people
00:02:02
said, "Hey, I didn't get one."
00:02:03
>> And Elena said about it and I said,
00:02:06
"Girl, I got you." So
00:02:07
>> she said, "Honey."
00:02:09
>> I said, "Give me more to sign." So I got
00:02:11
more to sign. She said, "What's a
00:02:13
wrist?"
00:02:13
>> Yeah, what's a wrist?
00:02:14
>> Arthritis. Never heard of her. Purple
00:02:16
tunnel. What's that?
00:02:18
>> Who knows? And a I did see like a couple
00:02:20
of people were asking like, "Are these
00:02:22
really sign like hands signed or are
00:02:24
they uh printed?"
00:02:25
>> No, they're handed
00:02:26
>> I guess which would be like a big
00:02:27
bummer. They're they're hand signed. I
00:02:29
promise you that.
00:02:29
>> I feel Does that happen a lot?
00:02:31
>> I don't know. That's a When I got the
00:02:32
question, I was like, do people do that?
00:02:34
>> I wouldn't think so.
00:02:34
>> You just get like a printed version.
00:02:36
>> Kind of less cool.
00:02:37
>> Be kind of a bummer, I feel. But uh no,
00:02:39
these are hand signed. I have a box
00:02:40
literally right next to me right now.
00:02:42
>> I can attest. I watch her sign many many
00:02:44
many many tippins
00:02:46
>> tipins
00:02:47
>> tipins a day.
00:02:48
>> And I've just been I'm signing whenever
00:02:50
I can. So, gobble those up. You can
00:02:51
pre-order them now. The book comes out
00:02:53
August 11th.
00:02:54
>> Gobble them up.
00:02:54
>> But pre-order now so you can get your
00:02:56
signed copy because I love you and I
00:02:58
want you to have your signed copy.
00:03:00
>> Hell yeah.
00:03:01
>> Okay, brother.
00:03:02
>> Um and and you know what? If you don't
00:03:04
want the signed copy or if they run out,
00:03:06
go get a regular copy. just get you any
00:03:08
copy that you can
00:03:09
>> pre-order. You can go to
00:03:10
butcherleacy.com and you can pick where
00:03:12
you can get it. Indie stores are great.
00:03:14
>> Um, all that great stuff.
00:03:16
>> Everything is great. Just make sure you
00:03:17
get a copy.
00:03:18
>> Yeah. Just get a copy. Pre-order that
00:03:19
>> or else you'll feel left out because
00:03:21
everybody listening to this mostly
00:03:22
probably has a copy.
00:03:23
>> Yeah.
00:03:24
>> So, if if you're listening and you don't
00:03:26
have a copy yet,
00:03:26
>> you don't want to be left out.
00:03:27
>> That's a little bit of a of a letown for
00:03:29
you. It
00:03:30
>> is.
00:03:30
>> You might not know what happens.
00:03:32
>> And we don't want that for you.
00:03:33
>> And you know, it's not too late to buy
00:03:34
all three.
00:03:34
>> It's true. It's not too late. So
00:03:36
>> you can always buy all three.
00:03:38
>> You can. That's one. You have free will.
00:03:40
>> Yeah.
00:03:40
>> You can buy all three. It's a great use
00:03:42
of free will. I would say adult money.
00:03:45
You got it. Use it.
00:03:46
>> Adult money. This is [laughter] what you
00:03:47
use.
00:03:48
>> You can't take it with you.
00:03:49
>> So I always think that whenever I buy
00:03:50
something crazy, I go can't take it with
00:03:52
me.
00:03:53
>> Can't take it with me. Good woman. But I
00:03:54
can take this book with me. You can put
00:03:56
it in your back pocket. In fact,
00:03:57
>> I went to Barnes & Noble the other day
00:03:59
and I got reckless up in there. Hell
00:04:01
yeah. I bought every book that Emily
00:04:03
Henry has to offer. You went into a flow
00:04:06
state.
00:04:06
>> I went I went into [laughter] a flow
00:04:08
state. Ah,
00:04:10
>> you went into a flow state.
00:04:11
>> I got this book, Bunny, that I've heard
00:04:14
a lot about that book.
00:04:15
>> I have seen everybody raving about that
00:04:17
book and I've been wanting to get it and
00:04:18
I like always look at it and I'm like, I
00:04:20
don't know. I don't know. I bought it.
00:04:21
>> Yes. You should. But first, I'm
00:04:23
rereading The Butcher and the Ren and
00:04:25
I'm going to reread The Butcher Game and
00:04:27
then I'm going to read for the first
00:04:28
time Butcher Legacy. And that's my
00:04:30
that's my reading list right now. And
00:04:32
then I'm gonna definitely need to go
00:04:34
back to a place of romance.
00:04:35
>> Yes, absolutely.
00:04:36
>> It's like a palette cleanser. But my
00:04:37
goal I got this I got them for both of
00:04:40
us actually.
00:04:40
>> Hell yeah.
00:04:41
>> Hold on. I got these little
00:04:43
>> book counter things and Oh yes. They
00:04:46
they come with four little cubes and I'm
00:04:48
like who's reading a thousand books a
00:04:49
year?
00:04:50
>> I I was like who gets to four digits?
00:04:52
>> I was like I need If you're getting to
00:04:54
four digits, tell me your secrets.
00:04:56
>> Tell me how you do it.
00:04:57
>> Um but hold on. Let me get to my
00:04:59
delivered tab over here. But yeah,
00:05:01
there's And you can get these little
00:05:02
like charms, quote unquote, with them.
00:05:05
So, I got Elena a ghost and a
00:05:06
candlestick.
00:05:07
>> Yeah, it's so cute.
00:05:08
>> And I got myself a little teacup and a
00:05:10
candle. It was really cute. So, let me
00:05:12
>> They're adorable.
00:05:13
>> Let me find where I got them on the Tik
00:05:15
Tok shop. I'll send Mikey the link too
00:05:19
>> cuz it is a fun little way to count.
00:05:21
>> I buy so much on the Tik Tok shop. It's
00:05:23
really sick of me.
00:05:24
>> The Tik Tok shop has me in a chokeold.
00:05:26
>> Same.
00:05:27
>> A true chokeold.
00:05:28
>> Same. If Oh my god. Okay, so they're
00:05:30
elegant designs, but the E in elegant,
00:05:33
the first E is a three.
00:05:35
>> Oh,
00:05:35
>> and they're a silver star seller.
00:05:37
>> Oh my god.
00:05:37
>> So, yeah, I'll give this to Mikey to put
00:05:39
in the show notes and get you a book
00:05:40
counter cuz it's fun. And my goal for
00:05:42
this year is to read two books a month.
00:05:45
>> I think that's a good goal.
00:05:46
>> Yeah, I'm trying. And if I can do more,
00:05:48
I'll do more.
00:05:48
>> Yeah, just at least two.
00:05:49
>> But in January, I read two.
00:05:51
>> I need to get on my [ __ ] I just haven't
00:05:53
had a lot of time to because
00:05:55
>> Well, you also write the books, so it's
00:05:56
hard to read the books and write the
00:05:57
books. It's hard to write, but it's
00:05:58
necessary the books and write the
00:06:01
morbids and say the morbids. It's a lot.
00:06:04
>> There's a lot going on. And I've been
00:06:06
going through like final edits and all
00:06:08
that. So, I think that now that that's
00:06:09
I'm through that, I can finally
00:06:12
>> leisurely read. But I'm still I'm still
00:06:14
making my way through Fantasma.
00:06:16
>> There you go.
00:06:16
>> And I still love it. I'm still having so
00:06:18
much fun with that book. I really Kaye
00:06:20
Smith.
00:06:21
>> Kaylee Smith.
00:06:22
>> Fun [ __ ] book.
00:06:24
>> I'll add that to my TBR.
00:06:25
>> Fun book. It really like I was like,
00:06:27
"Wow, I want more books like this."
00:06:29
>> I wanted to spend even more time in
00:06:31
Barnes & Noble last weekend, but there
00:06:32
was so many people there. I went on a
00:06:35
Saturday.
00:06:35
>> I Oh, [ __ ] that. That's your problem.
00:06:38
>> I didn't think about it at all. And then
00:06:39
I got there and I'm sorry, there was a
00:06:41
lot of kids there and I was like, "Shut
00:06:43
the [ __ ] up."
00:06:44
>> No, you got to go. If you can get there
00:06:47
during the week, that's A+.
00:06:49
>> I can.
00:06:50
>> Or at night?
00:06:51
>> Yeah. Oh my god.
00:06:52
>> Nighttime Barnes & Noble is lovely. I
00:06:53
went a few weeks ago just after
00:06:55
Christmas on like a week night. It was
00:06:57
beautiful.
00:06:58
>> It was beautiful.
00:06:59
>> That's really where it's at.
00:07:00
>> Yeah.
00:07:00
>> Uh and there's really no way that I can
00:07:04
segue from that beautiful discussion of
00:07:07
one of my favorite things in the world,
00:07:08
which is books.
00:07:09
>> Yeah.
00:07:09
>> To Dennis Nelson.
00:07:11
>> I couldn't really think of a good one
00:07:12
either, but we did it.
00:07:14
>> Here we are. Here we are. We're back.
00:07:15
We're back to Dennis Nielson. Um
00:07:17
>> she says this is going to be the worst
00:07:19
part.
00:07:19
>> This is going to be rough. The second
00:07:21
cuz we're going to do this in three
00:07:22
parts. Um, in the third part, you're
00:07:24
going to be like, "Yay!" caught a
00:07:27
message from a UK listener and they were
00:07:29
like, "You said this is going to be a
00:07:30
three-part series." And I was like, "No,
00:07:32
this is going to be a threep."
00:07:35
And
00:07:35
>> they were like, "In my worst Boston
00:07:36
accent, I said,
00:07:38
>> sorry, I didn't mean to be so proper
00:07:40
about it."
00:07:40
>> I know.
00:07:41
>> Uh, it's going to be a three paddic kid.
00:07:43
>> Hey.
00:07:43
>> Uh, and in part two
00:07:45
>> Uhhuh.
00:07:46
>> we're going deep into the depths of the
00:07:49
most hellish [ __ ] you can possibly think
00:07:52
of. So, it up.
00:07:53
>> Um,
00:07:53
>> let me get my [ __ ] hazmat suit on.
00:07:55
>> Yeah, everybody get ready. But don't
00:07:57
worry because I'm going to follow it
00:07:59
with part three, which is going to give
00:08:02
us some more hella [ __ ] but it's also
00:08:04
then going to end with some some
00:08:06
justice.
00:08:06
>> We love justice.
00:08:07
>> So, we we need [snorts] that. So, we
00:08:10
left you with Dennis beginning his
00:08:13
killing spree. He had finally done it.
00:08:16
He had shown that he has necrophilic uh
00:08:20
tendencies as well
00:08:21
>> and desires.
00:08:22
>> Uh he likes to keep his victims around
00:08:25
after he after they're deceased for a
00:08:28
while
00:08:28
>> under the floors.
00:08:30
>> And I and I think he's called the kindly
00:08:32
killer because he kind of like befriends
00:08:35
his victims first.
00:08:36
>> Oh, okay.
00:08:37
>> Um and he does come off a little
00:08:39
unassuming.
00:08:40
>> Yeah. Let me Googled this one. Um, so on
00:08:44
October 11th, just a few weeks after the
00:08:47
bonfire
00:08:49
um that he that he did himself to to get
00:08:53
rid of Steven Holmes's body.
00:08:55
>> Yeah.
00:08:55
>> After that bonfire, it was only a few
00:08:57
weeks after that that Dennis went out to
00:08:59
St. Martin's Pub where he met and
00:09:01
started chatting with a young Chinese
00:09:03
college student named Andrew Hoe.
00:09:05
>> Okay.
00:09:06
>> After a few drinks, Dennis convinced
00:09:08
Andrew to come back to his apartment
00:09:10
with him. He promised him a large amount
00:09:12
of money for his company.
00:09:13
>> He's a scary looking guy.
00:09:15
>> He is. But he like he came off
00:09:17
unassuming. I think he came off a little
00:09:19
like
00:09:20
nerdy and just kind of like quiet.
00:09:22
>> Once you know what you know about
00:09:24
somebody, you can't unknow it.
00:09:25
>> It's true. So he promised Andrew a lot
00:09:28
of money for his company. And at the
00:09:30
apartment, Dennis poured two more drinks
00:09:33
and the conversation turned to the
00:09:35
subject of bondage.
00:09:37
Andrew informed Dennis that he wouldn't
00:09:40
mind being tied up or doing the tying.
00:09:42
>> Okay.
00:09:43
>> Now, Dennis agreed, but insisted that he
00:09:45
wasn't interested in any sexual
00:09:47
intimacy.
00:09:49
>> Okay.
00:09:49
>> He was just interested in the tying
00:09:51
part.
00:09:52
>> This struck Andrew as like a little
00:09:53
strange because he was like, "Okay, this
00:09:55
guy invited me back to his apartment. He
00:09:56
offered me money for my company, which
00:09:59
in my experience leads to one thing."
00:10:02
>> Yeah. But instead, Dennis tied a cord
00:10:05
around Andrew's feet and told him that
00:10:07
he was afraid he might have come there
00:10:08
to rob him.
00:10:10
>> Okay.
00:10:11
>> Once Andrew's ankles were secured,
00:10:13
Dennis grabbed a neck tie and wrapped it
00:10:15
around Andrew's throat. And he pulled it
00:10:17
tightly and he just started admonishing
00:10:20
him for going home with a stranger while
00:10:23
he did this.
00:10:23
>> Oh, that's [ __ ] gross. Now, had
00:10:26
Dennis not loosened his grip at the
00:10:29
first sign of panic from his from
00:10:31
Andrew, it seems entirely likely that
00:10:33
Andrew would have suffered the same fate
00:10:35
as Steven Holmes. But
00:10:38
>> he did. He loosened his grip. He saw
00:10:40
Andrew panic. He loosened it a little
00:10:42
bit. I don't know what the intention was
00:10:44
there, but in that instant, Andrew used
00:10:47
the opportunity to like turn out of his
00:10:50
grasp, like get himself out. He grabbed
00:10:52
a candlestick from the table and hurled
00:10:54
it at Dennis. The chaos of all of this
00:10:57
also gave him the opportunity to remove
00:10:59
the rope from around his ankles and he
00:11:01
ran from the apartment.
00:11:02
>> That's so scary for all that to happen
00:11:05
like to get away.
00:11:06
>> Now about an hour later, the police come
00:11:08
knocking on Dennis's door because Andrew
00:11:11
had reported the whole thing.
00:11:12
>> Yeah.
00:11:13
>> And that was like a big deal for him to
00:11:15
to like go and report this.
00:11:17
>> Yeah. because he was technically
00:11:20
involved in a transfer of money for
00:11:23
company which could get him in trouble,
00:11:26
but he felt it was that important and
00:11:27
that serious.
00:11:28
>> Okay.
00:11:28
>> Now, because somebody that does this to
00:11:30
you is going to do this to other people
00:11:32
or likely has already
00:11:33
>> and he clearly felt like he was going to
00:11:35
go further. Yeah.
00:11:36
>> Now, despite the complaint filed against
00:11:38
him for assault, the police at Dennis's
00:11:40
door seemed completely uninterested in
00:11:43
what either of them had to say.
00:11:44
>> I'm like, "Huh? same uh same police
00:11:47
department that he worked for.
00:11:48
>> Yep. Dennis told them them that they had
00:11:50
been drinking. And while it was true he
00:11:52
had placed a neck tie around Andrew's
00:11:54
neck, he insisted he'd only done so
00:11:56
because he wanted to show him how
00:11:57
dangerous it was to go home with a
00:11:59
stranger.
00:12:00
>> You can't do that though. [laughter]
00:12:02
>> That's actually allowed.
00:12:04
>> Like truly. So after proving his point,
00:12:07
Dennis claimed that he threw the threw
00:12:09
Andrew out of his apartment and that was
00:12:10
the last time he saw him. He was like,
00:12:12
"I was just proving a point and once I
00:12:13
had, I told him to get the [ __ ] out of
00:12:15
here."
00:12:15
>> Okay.
00:12:16
>> And it's like, that's not what he said.
00:12:17
>> I bet.
00:12:18
>> Now, given his personal circumstances
00:12:20
and all that he stood to lose, Andrew
00:12:23
decided not to file a a complaint, like
00:12:26
a formal complaint against Dennis.
00:12:29
>> Without a complaint, there was nothing
00:12:30
the police could do besides just
00:12:32
question him. But looking back at this,
00:12:35
a lot of activists see the disinterest
00:12:38
of law enforcement and the social
00:12:40
stigmas around the gay community to have
00:12:42
allowed him to continue killing people.
00:12:44
>> Very much so. Yeah.
00:12:45
>> That was very clearly a big part of
00:12:48
this.
00:12:48
>> You mentioned it in part one. It sounds
00:12:49
a lot like uh the Jeffrey Dawnmer case.
00:12:51
>> It really does. And
00:12:52
>> and the same exact things played out
00:12:54
there.
00:12:54
>> Yeah. Like this Andrew ran out of that
00:12:56
apartment. He got the police and the
00:12:57
police weren't really I mean they I
00:12:59
guess they questioned him, but that's
00:13:00
really all they were interested in
00:13:02
doing. They didn't want to go any
00:13:03
further.
00:13:04
>> And it's like maybe keep tabs on this
00:13:06
guy and who's coming and going from the
00:13:08
apartment.
00:13:09
>> You know, who's going in the apartment
00:13:11
and not coming out.
00:13:12
>> Exactly. Just see what's going on.
00:13:13
Right.
00:13:14
>> But activist and writer Peter Tatchel
00:13:16
wrote, "Had they done a proper
00:13:17
investigation and caught Nilson, 15
00:13:20
victims might still be alive."
00:13:22
>> Wow. 15?
00:13:24
>> Yeah.
00:13:24
>> The close call with the police probably
00:13:27
should have served as like somewhat of a
00:13:28
deterrent to him,
00:13:29
>> but he also saw that he got away with
00:13:30
it.
00:13:31
>> He did. That's the thing because and it
00:13:33
should have at least for a while served
00:13:34
as one, but it didn't do anything to
00:13:37
stop him from finding another man to
00:13:38
lure back to his apartment.
00:13:39
>> Just emboldened
00:13:40
>> cuz like you said, he saw that he got
00:13:42
away with it. In early December 1979,
00:13:45
almost a full year after the first
00:13:47
murder and just a few months after the
00:13:49
incident with Andrew Hoe, Canadian
00:13:51
tourist Kenneth Okend stopped into the
00:13:54
West End pub for lunch. Sitting at the
00:13:56
bar, Kenneth started talking to the man
00:13:58
next to him, Dennis Nelson. Oh, yeah.
00:14:00
who also happened to be eating alone
00:14:02
that day. Uh the conversation must have
00:14:05
been pretty good because they spent the
00:14:06
next several hours together and then
00:14:08
Kenneth agreed to join Dennis for dinner
00:14:10
at his apartment. After dinner, they
00:14:12
went out to get a few bottles of liquor
00:14:14
and then went back to the apartment to
00:14:16
have a few drinks and just listen to
00:14:17
some music.
00:14:18
>> Yeah.
00:14:18
>> Now, in Kenneth's presence, Dennis felt
00:14:21
more relaxed and comfortable than he had
00:14:23
in a long time. He said,
00:14:24
>> I guess Kenneth reminded him of his
00:14:26
close friend from his days in the
00:14:28
service. Oh,
00:14:29
>> this guy's name was Derek Collins, his
00:14:30
friend.
00:14:31
>> Okay.
00:14:31
>> And he just kind of like went back to
00:14:34
that time. I think he really that was
00:14:36
the only time he felt kind of like
00:14:38
normal at ease
00:14:39
>> a little bit. Yeah.
00:14:40
>> But that said, the pleasantness of this
00:14:42
whole night was offset somewhat by the
00:14:44
frustrating and very disappointing
00:14:46
knowledge that the next morning Kenneth
00:14:48
would be headed to the airport to return
00:14:50
to Canada.
00:14:51
>> It's like the knowledge that people have
00:14:53
free will and get to leave when they
00:14:55
want to.
00:14:55
>> Yeah.
00:14:56
>> And that's the thing. It's like if you
00:14:57
had actually had a great evening with
00:14:59
him, you could try connect with him and
00:15:02
keep talking.
00:15:04
>> But it's also like I think he had that
00:15:06
experience once before with the Was he
00:15:07
engaged to the man that um
00:15:09
>> uh they weren't engaged but they were
00:15:11
together and I think that's what it is.
00:15:13
>> It didn't work out.
00:15:14
>> Yeah. Now in with a mind that is healthy
00:15:18
you could you could understand that like
00:15:20
that happened but it's not always going
00:15:21
to happen. He's not of sound mind. Now,
00:15:24
in his recollection of uh Kenneth's
00:15:26
murder, uh Dennis Nilson said, "It must
00:15:29
have been well after midnight. All of a
00:15:31
sudden, I was dragging him across the
00:15:33
floor with a cord around his neck."
00:15:35
>> All of a sudden,
00:15:36
>> I was saying, "Let me listen to the
00:15:37
music as well." He didn't struggle. He
00:15:40
was dead.
00:15:42
>> What? So, he just is like all of a
00:15:43
sudden boom, cord around his neck
00:15:45
dragging him down like saying, "Let me
00:15:47
listen to the music as well."
00:15:49
>> That was the part that I was saying,
00:15:50
"What?" [clears throat] Like,
00:15:51
>> Yep. So he strangled Kenneth and when he
00:15:54
was convinced that he was dead, um
00:15:56
Dennis removed his clothes and watched
00:15:58
his body as he'd done with his previous
00:16:00
victims. Then he returned him to his bed
00:16:03
where he assaulted the body until he
00:16:06
fell asleep. Wow. Yeah.
00:16:09
Now, a few hours later, Dennis cleaned
00:16:12
up the mess in his apartment. Then he
00:16:14
moved Kenneth's body to a large cupboard
00:16:15
in the kitchen. Then threw away any
00:16:18
evidence that Kenneth had been in his
00:16:20
apartment. And in the days after that,
00:16:22
Dennis periodically removed Kenneth from
00:16:24
the cupboard and dressed him.
00:16:26
>> Oh, decomposition had set in a lot
00:16:29
faster than in the case of the Holmes
00:16:31
murder. So Neielson was basically
00:16:35
required to in his mind to wash the body
00:16:39
and apply makeup to hide the natural
00:16:42
like demp.
00:16:43
>> Wouldn't washing it wouldn't washing the
00:16:46
body just make it worse?
00:16:47
>> It would like submerging it in water.
00:16:49
But he's trying to he's trying.
00:16:51
>> Okay.
00:16:52
>> Uh he would then pose the body in
00:16:54
various positions around the apartment
00:16:56
and take photographs.
00:16:57
>> Oh,
00:16:58
>> yeah.
00:16:59
>> Okay.
00:17:00
>> In the case of Steven Holmes's murder,
00:17:02
the body under the floorboards caused
00:17:04
Dennis a lot of anxiety and was a source
00:17:07
of dread, but also occasional excitement
00:17:10
and arousal. This time though, Dennis's,
00:17:14
you know, the the body of Dennis's most
00:17:17
recent victim, excuse me, he became more
00:17:19
of a play, and I'm and I'm referring to
00:17:21
it as the body because that's what he
00:17:23
was using it as, right?
00:17:24
>> He wasn't looking at it as Kenneth
00:17:26
anymore. This is his
00:17:28
>> his body, you know what I mean? Like,
00:17:29
yeah, I just don't want anybody thinking
00:17:31
I'm like not
00:17:33
>> treating Kenneth as Kenneth. This was no
00:17:35
longer
00:17:36
>> who Kenneth was, right? Um, but like I
00:17:39
said with Stephven Holmes, like being
00:17:41
under the floorboard, that to Dennis was
00:17:43
like very nerve-wracking, very, it made
00:17:46
him anxious a lot, but then he would
00:17:47
take Steven's body out and that would
00:17:49
get him all happy again. U, but this
00:17:52
time with Kenneth, he was more of a
00:17:55
playmate or a house guest to Dennis,
00:17:58
>> okay,
00:17:59
>> than anything else. Like I wonder if
00:18:00
that's because he had shared more of a
00:18:03
connection. One, it seemed when they
00:18:05
initially met
00:18:06
>> and then two, he had already gotten away
00:18:08
with this, so he might have been more
00:18:10
emboldened that nobody was going to come
00:18:11
knock on the door and interrupt.
00:18:13
>> So I can experiment a little more here.
00:18:15
>> Yeah. Like at night while he laid in bed
00:18:17
watching television, he would often
00:18:19
remove Kenneth's Kenneth's body and lay
00:18:22
it across himself. Um he found like
00:18:25
comfort in the weight of him laying
00:18:27
there. He was also beginning to show
00:18:29
signs of deepening psychosis at this
00:18:31
point.
00:18:32
>> I'd say so.
00:18:33
>> He said later, Dennis said later, I
00:18:35
would sometimes speak to him as though
00:18:36
he were still listening. I would
00:18:38
compliment him on his looks and anatomy.
00:18:41
>> What?
00:18:42
>> And each time when he was done, he would
00:18:44
just wrap Kenneth's body tightly in
00:18:46
plastic sheeting and put him back under
00:18:48
the floorboards of the kitchen or in the
00:18:50
cupboard.
00:18:51
>> Okay. Yeah.
00:18:54
Isn't it wild that like while we're
00:18:56
living our like next to this I'm going
00:18:58
to call our lives like normal?
00:19:00
>> Yeah.
00:19:00
>> You're just like going about your normal
00:19:02
activities and there could be somebody
00:19:04
in the world doing this [ __ ]
00:19:06
>> Yep.
00:19:06
>> That ever hit you.
00:19:07
>> Yeah. Smack you in the face. Yeah.
00:19:10
>> Just like
00:19:11
>> Yeah.
00:19:12
>> We're going to go like get your kids
00:19:13
ready for dance and somebody else is
00:19:15
going to take a body out of their
00:19:16
cupboard, dress it up, and watch TV with
00:19:17
it.
00:19:18
>> That you have no idea what anybody is
00:19:20
doing in any house that you pass by.
00:19:22
>> Do you know? You can't eat in any
00:19:24
everybody's house.
00:19:25
>> Oh no. This show has ruined me because I
00:19:28
drive past people's houses all the time
00:19:30
and just think, "What the [ __ ] could be
00:19:32
going on?
00:19:33
>> What are they doing in there?
00:19:34
>> What the [ __ ] could be going on in
00:19:35
there?" Cuz odds are you drive past a
00:19:37
lot of houses in your life.
00:19:39
>> Some weird [ __ ] going down inside of
00:19:40
them.
00:19:41
>> Absolutely.
00:19:42
>> You know. Yeah.
00:19:43
>> Of course.
00:19:45
>> When weeks passed though without word
00:19:47
from Kenneth, his friends and family
00:19:49
started growing concerned. His mother
00:19:51
Audrey reported him missing to the
00:19:52
Metropolitan Police Force in London and
00:19:55
even flew to England to aid in the
00:19:57
search.
00:19:57
>> Wow.
00:19:58
>> But that's a mama.
00:19:59
>> Right. But just as with the case of
00:20:01
Steven Holmes, there was little evidence
00:20:03
to indicate where Kenneth had gone.
00:20:05
>> Right.
00:20:06
>> Audrey Oenden, his mother said he seems
00:20:09
to have vanished into thin air.
00:20:10
According to the press, the police at
00:20:12
Scotland Yard were quote reluctant to
00:20:14
get involved because Ken Jr. had been
00:20:17
missing for less than a month. So much
00:20:19
of the search fell to the family who
00:20:21
were unprepared and completely
00:20:23
unfamiliar with the city and the
00:20:24
country, which is awful that it like
00:20:26
fell on them to find try to find him.
00:20:29
>> Kenneth's father said, "I'll stay until
00:20:32
something turns up. We hope every day
00:20:33
that there'll be some sort of
00:20:35
information."
00:20:35
>> Oh, that's awful. That's heartbreaking.
00:20:37
>> Like his family was just like, I'm not
00:20:38
leaving until I find him.
00:20:39
>> How could you? You know,
00:20:41
>> months passed and the search continued,
00:20:43
but nothing much came of it. And despite
00:20:45
having kept a very detailed diary of his
00:20:47
movements around the city, Kenneth's
00:20:49
entries stop on the afternoon of
00:20:51
December 2nd, right before he met Dennis
00:20:54
Nelson.
00:20:54
>> That is haunting.
00:20:55
>> And there was no indication of what
00:20:57
happened or where he went that day.
00:20:59
>> Dennis kept himself company with
00:21:01
Kenneth's body for several weeks, but
00:21:03
eventually the cold space beneath the
00:21:05
floorboards couldn't stop the natural
00:21:07
process of decay, so he stopped taking
00:21:09
Kenneth's body out of its hiding spot.
00:21:11
>> Okay. In the months after this, Dennis
00:21:14
carried on with life as usual until May
00:21:16
17th, 1980, when he met 16-year-old
00:21:20
Martin Duffy, who was a runaway. Um, a
00:21:23
few days earlier, Duffy had left his
00:21:25
parents' house, telling them he was just
00:21:27
going to the library, but instead he
00:21:29
hitchhiked to London. The last time
00:21:31
anyone had seen him was the day he
00:21:33
arrived in the city and was detained by
00:21:35
police for failing to pay a train fee.
00:21:38
>> Okay. He had no friends or family in the
00:21:40
city, so he spent 4 days sleeping in
00:21:42
train stations,
00:21:43
>> surviving on whatever food he could scr
00:21:45
like scrash.
00:21:47
>> In many ways, he was kind of an ideal
00:21:50
victim at this point for someone like
00:21:52
Dennis Nelson.
00:21:53
>> He came from a troubled home. He had
00:21:55
struggled with his parents since
00:21:56
reaching his teen years.
00:21:58
>> He's not from this area.
00:21:59
>> Yeah, he's not familiar with this area.
00:22:01
He had been picked up by the police for
00:22:02
shoplifting on several occasions. And a
00:22:05
lot of times he would stay out all night
00:22:07
at the bars around the Liverpool area.
00:22:10
So this wasn't like immediately setting
00:22:12
off alarm bells.
00:22:13
>> Yeah.
00:22:13
>> At one point Martin's parents had become
00:22:15
so frustrated with him that they had
00:22:17
commit had him committed to a
00:22:19
residential facility for troubled
00:22:20
adolescence.
00:22:21
>> Oh wow.
00:22:22
>> And he received psychiatric treatment
00:22:23
there.
00:22:24
>> Um after his just discharge from the
00:22:27
facility, Martin genuinely seemed to
00:22:29
want to turn his life around, even
00:22:31
managing to stay off drugs and
00:22:32
maintaining a job.
00:22:33
>> That's great. By all accounts, things
00:22:35
were going well for him until April 1980
00:22:37
when he was picked up by police for fair
00:22:39
evasion. He was let go with a warning,
00:22:42
but for whatever reason, that incident
00:22:45
caused him to backslide into his old
00:22:47
habits.
00:22:47
>> Yeah.
00:22:48
>> And on May 13th, he packed a small
00:22:50
suitcase and left his parents' house for
00:22:51
the last time. Oh.
00:22:53
>> When he ran into Dennis Nilson on the
00:22:55
night of May 17th, he was bordering on
00:22:58
desperate. He had no money. He had no
00:23:00
food. Nowhere to sleep.
00:23:01
>> Oh, that makes us a million times more
00:23:03
sad. He was I mean quite simply and
00:23:06
unfortunately he was the perfect target
00:23:08
at this point.
00:23:09
>> Yeah.
00:23:10
>> By the time they got back to Dennis's
00:23:12
apartment, Martin was already exhausted
00:23:15
and wasn't likely to remain awake for
00:23:17
very much longer. And so they sat on the
00:23:19
couch and chatted. But after just two
00:23:22
beers, Martin said he was tired and
00:23:24
wanted to go to sleep. So Dennis offered
00:23:26
him the bed. A short time after that,
00:23:28
Dennis crept into the bedroom and
00:23:30
attacked Martin. Uh Nilson later said,
00:23:33
"I remember sitting astride him. I
00:23:35
strangled him with great force in the
00:23:37
almost pitch darkness with just one
00:23:39
sidelight on underneath." He said when
00:23:42
he felt him go limp, he carried him from
00:23:44
the bed to the kitchen where he filled
00:23:46
the sink with water and held Martin
00:23:48
Duffy's head under it until the bubbles
00:23:49
stopped coming to the surface.
00:23:51
>> My god,
00:23:52
>> he said, "I must have held him there for
00:23:54
about 3 or 4 minutes."
00:23:57
>> Like that's a long time. And out of
00:23:59
nowhere, you just get up and like
00:24:01
strangle this boy.
00:24:02
>> This poor kid.
00:24:03
>> Once he was convinced that Martin was
00:24:05
dead, he laid him out on the floor and
00:24:06
undressed him, then carried him to the
00:24:08
bathroom and placed his body in the
00:24:10
bathtub.
00:24:12
After the last two murders, Dennis
00:24:14
washed the bodies in the bathtub. This
00:24:16
time though, he also removed his own
00:24:18
clothes and got into the tub and bathed
00:24:21
along with his victim.
00:24:23
>> What? Yeah. When he was finished, he
00:24:27
returned Martin's body to the living
00:24:29
room and placed it in a chair where he
00:24:31
could just admire it.
00:24:33
>> What the [ __ ]
00:24:34
>> He said, "I talked to him and mentioned
00:24:36
that his body was the youngest looking
00:24:38
I'd ever seen."
00:24:39
>> That's absolutely disgusting. So, he's a
00:24:41
pedophile.
00:24:43
>> Wow. Necrophiliac, murderer, pedophile.
00:24:46
>> He's everything. Initially, Dennis kept
00:24:49
Martin Duffy's body in the kitchen
00:24:51
cupboard, but after 2 days,
00:24:53
decomposition had significantly
00:24:54
disfigured his remains. So, he placed
00:24:56
his body under the floorboards and left
00:24:58
it there. In the days that followed, he
00:25:01
threw away Martin's clothing, his
00:25:02
suitcase, and other belongings, erasing
00:25:05
any sign that he had been in his
00:25:06
apartment at all. It's like he just
00:25:08
disappeared.
00:25:09
>> Did he eventually burn Kenneth's body,
00:25:11
or was Kenneth's remains still under the
00:25:13
floorboards?
00:25:14
>> I'm wondering, like, is that apartment
00:25:16
starting to smell? I'm sure it is. Now,
00:25:18
when Dennis met Steven Holmes at the pub
00:25:21
in December 1978,
00:25:23
it's reasonable to assume he hadn't
00:25:25
intended at that moment to murder him. I
00:25:28
think he just like didn't know what he
00:25:30
was going to do. Yeah. Kind of thing.
00:25:32
But by committing that first murder, he
00:25:34
had indulged his darkest fantasy. I
00:25:36
think at that point it was a fantasy to
00:25:38
him, a dark fantasy,
00:25:39
>> but he made it. But he didn't real he
00:25:42
didn't plan I think that one far ahead
00:25:45
of time, you know.
00:25:46
>> But now he's premeditating.
00:25:47
>> But now he's indulged his darkest
00:25:50
fantasy and there's been no negative
00:25:52
consequence.
00:25:53
>> Yeah.
00:25:53
>> At all.
00:25:54
>> And if anything
00:25:55
>> Yeah.
00:25:55
>> there's been subtle cues to keep going.
00:25:58
>> Exactly. You know,
00:25:59
>> now following that murder, he claimed
00:26:01
he'd made a promise to himself, the
00:26:02
first murder, Stephen, that he said he
00:26:04
was never going to let that happen
00:26:05
again.
00:26:06
>> Right. And then he did three more times.
00:26:07
But just a few months later, he very
00:26:09
likely tried to murder Andrew Hoe. This
00:26:11
and this is all to say that he might not
00:26:13
have intended or even desired at the
00:26:16
time to become a killer, but once he had
00:26:18
done the first murder and gotten away
00:26:19
with it, that desire and his urges and
00:26:22
his fantasies,
00:26:23
>> it just overruled any moral qualms that
00:26:26
he may have had with these acts. And it
00:26:28
just took him over
00:26:29
>> cuz he's not I'm not saying he's insane,
00:26:31
but he's not living in reality.
00:26:32
>> No, something is very off here.
00:26:34
>> Something's broken.
00:26:35
>> Uh he's you know what it is? He's just
00:26:37
deeply entrenched in dark fantasy
00:26:40
because that's all he's done his entire
00:26:42
life is isolate and live in a fantasy
00:26:44
world.
00:26:45
>> Now, over the next the course of the
00:26:47
next six months, he would go on to
00:26:48
murder five more men. Only one has ever
00:26:52
been identified. Of those five men,
00:26:55
>> yeah,
00:26:56
>> that's horrible.
00:26:56
>> In August of that year, he met Billy
00:26:58
Sutherland, a drifter from Scotland who
00:27:01
supported himself primarily through sex
00:27:03
work. Um although he wasn't like
00:27:05
Nelson's other victims in a physical
00:27:07
sense like he was older, he was covered
00:27:09
in tattoos, just different physically.
00:27:11
>> Sure.
00:27:11
>> His background and marginalized status
00:27:13
made him an ideal target for Dennis
00:27:16
Nelson.
00:27:17
>> Southerntherland had a history of petty
00:27:18
crime, stealing to get by whenever he
00:27:20
couldn't find work, and he rarely stayed
00:27:22
in one place for long. That's kind of
00:27:24
what he was.
00:27:26
>> Southerntherland met Dennis at a pub
00:27:28
near Piccadilly Circus, and the two men
00:27:30
spent the night going from one bar to
00:27:31
another until closing time. Now, at the
00:27:34
end of the night, Sutherland mentioned
00:27:35
that he had nowhere to go. So, Dennis
00:27:37
was like, "Hey, come back to my
00:27:39
apartment." Later, Dennis claimed to
00:27:41
have no recollection of killing Billy
00:27:43
Sutherland.
00:27:43
>> Interesting because that happened with
00:27:45
the last victim, too. It's just like all
00:27:46
of a sudden they're dead.
00:27:47
>> He only remembers that he quote
00:27:49
strangled him from the front and that
00:27:51
there was a dead body in the morning.
00:27:53
Quote.
00:27:53
>> Okay.
00:27:54
>> Given how forthcoming Dennis was about
00:27:57
his other crimes, it's likely he might
00:28:00
actually be telling the truth here.
00:28:02
Okay.
00:28:03
>> Cuz I don't understand why just one. He
00:28:06
doesn't remember.
00:28:07
>> Yeah. Why he's so forthcoming with some
00:28:10
>> A few weeks later, Billy Sutherland's
00:28:12
mother reported him missing to the
00:28:13
police and the Salvation Army. But he
00:28:16
was just one of hundreds of men who'd
00:28:17
gone missing from London over the years.
00:28:20
Uh 41 of whom were named Billy
00:28:23
Sutherland.
00:28:23
>> Wow. That's actually wild.
00:28:25
>> Isn't that crazy?
00:28:26
>> Yeah. Also given his lifestyle and
00:28:28
criminal history, particularly sex work,
00:28:31
the case wasn't given high priority,
00:28:33
especially in that time period.
00:28:35
>> That's so shitty. But that whole they
00:28:37
consider them less dead.
00:28:38
>> Yeah, that still happens. Absolutely.
00:28:41
And even if it had been, no one would
00:28:43
have thought to look for him under the
00:28:44
floorboards of Dennis Nielsen's
00:28:46
apartment. It just was there was no
00:28:48
there's nothing connecting him to him.
00:28:49
>> No. Now, in the months after the Billy
00:28:52
Sutherland's murder, Dennis's drinking
00:28:54
continued to spiral out of control,
00:28:56
>> which I'm sure only is making his
00:28:58
fantasies and lack of uh
00:29:01
>> touch with reality worse.
00:29:03
>> Exactly. Now, during the day, he was
00:29:04
able to maintain his employment and keep
00:29:06
up appearances, but at night, the
00:29:08
alcohol blotted out all the darker parts
00:29:11
of his personality.
00:29:12
>> That's the other crazy thing. He's, you
00:29:13
have to think, he's doing all of this.
00:29:15
He's getting this drunk and then he's
00:29:16
just going to work
00:29:18
>> going to work and talking to people
00:29:20
while having bodies in his floorboards
00:29:23
>> because he's like a um he helps he's
00:29:25
like a job search consultant, right?
00:29:26
Like that's what
00:29:28
>> like what now between
00:29:31
September and December he would murder
00:29:34
four more men all in more or less the
00:29:37
same way as everybody else had been
00:29:39
killed. They would meet at one pub or
00:29:41
another, and after a few drinks, Dennis
00:29:43
would invite the man back to his
00:29:44
apartment where they would listen to
00:29:46
music or watch a movie while they
00:29:48
continued drinking. Once his guest had
00:29:50
been subdued or incapacitated from
00:29:52
alcohol, Dennis would climb on top of
00:29:54
him, straddle him, strangle him with a
00:29:57
cord or a necktie, and then when the man
00:29:59
was dead, he would wash the body, spend
00:30:01
as much time as possible before
00:30:03
decomposition set in. And after that
00:30:05
happened, he would store the body under
00:30:07
the floorboards and set out to find a
00:30:09
new victim.
00:30:09
>> He's just keeping everybody in the
00:30:10
floorboards at this point.
00:30:12
>> It's wild. And these victims, when I say
00:30:15
he killed four men, he killed five men,
00:30:18
they are remain unidentified to this
00:30:20
day, unfortunately, or I would have
00:30:22
given names throughout this period. He
00:30:24
started compartmentalizing in a way that
00:30:27
allowed him to continue killing without
00:30:29
hesitation.
00:30:30
>> Yeah. and without interrupting his
00:30:31
appearance of normality. Like he could
00:30:34
literally he's a very interesting case
00:30:36
of compartmentalization cuz he can
00:30:39
really put it over here and just be a
00:30:41
totally normal person at work.
00:30:42
>> Yeah.
00:30:43
>> Like
00:30:43
>> really scary.
00:30:45
>> He would later say, "I never thought of
00:30:47
them again at work until I came home
00:30:48
that evening."
00:30:50
>> That's how much he could compartment. I
00:30:52
think he pe some people, especially evil
00:30:55
people or people that are deeply deeply
00:30:57
[ __ ] up, they can literally separate
00:31:01
parts of their brain, I think, and they
00:31:03
can just put it over here and it's not
00:31:05
there. I once had a therapist told me I
00:31:07
was really good at compartmentalizing. I
00:31:08
mean, trauma can make you really good at
00:31:10
compartmentalizing even to like like I
00:31:14
know that I'm good at
00:31:15
compartmentalizing, but to that degree
00:31:17
like I can't
00:31:18
>> if I I can't imagine compartmentalizing
00:31:21
that.
00:31:21
>> I'm extraordinary at compartmentalizing
00:31:25
and like not to toot my own horn, I
00:31:27
don't think it's necessarily always a
00:31:29
good thing. No.
00:31:30
>> Um,
00:31:30
>> no. Honestly, in fact, a lot of times
00:31:33
it's very bad. I'm really good at it.
00:31:34
>> Yeah.
00:31:35
>> And I think it's just some brains can do
00:31:38
it, some can't. But I think to this
00:31:39
extent, there needs to be some deeply
00:31:43
deeply [ __ ] up parts of you that are
00:31:46
allow you cuz I can compartmentalize
00:31:48
things that I think, you know, like
00:31:50
>> Well, a lot of times compartmentalizing
00:31:52
is in is tied in with survival.
00:31:54
>> Yeah. Ex. That's the thing. It's like I
00:31:56
can compartmentalize to be like, you
00:31:57
know what, that's not helping me be
00:31:58
productive here, so I'm going to put it
00:32:00
over there.
00:32:00
>> Same here. Yeah. He's compartmentalizing
00:32:03
>> so he can continue on this dark fantasy
00:32:07
and but still
00:32:08
>> Yeah.
00:32:08
>> be part of like day-to-day society.
00:32:11
>> Exactly.
00:32:12
>> Which is crazy
00:32:14
>> to go to work and not think about the
00:32:16
bodies under your floorboards.
00:32:18
>> I can't conceive.
00:32:19
>> That's conceive of that.
00:32:20
>> But I can't conceive of anything he's
00:32:22
doing. So it's like he's such they're
00:32:24
such different
00:32:26
>> species of human. You know what I mean?
00:32:28
Like they're such a different subsect of
00:32:29
human.
00:32:30
>> It's so funny. I meant to mention this
00:32:32
um earlier. Remember when we were
00:32:33
getting our nails done the other day and
00:32:35
we were watching that video about the
00:32:36
climber, the guy who just recently
00:32:38
climbed um
00:32:38
>> Alex uh he just climbed that stair.
00:32:41
>> Let me look it up really quick. Hold on.
00:32:43
>> But I was just thinking um when they did
00:32:45
that MRI on his brain and they saw that
00:32:47
his amydala like doesn't respond to fear
00:32:50
like a typical amydala actually does. I
00:32:53
really do think it would be so
00:32:55
fascinating to do more MRIs on serial
00:32:58
killers because if if like this person
00:33:01
who's literally just like very
00:33:02
interested in adventure and climbing,
00:33:04
their amydala works that certain way.
00:33:06
There's got to be some part of a serial
00:33:09
killer's brain or like a person like
00:33:10
this their brain that does not fire like
00:33:13
a typical brain fires, you know?
00:33:16
>> I also thought that was really
00:33:17
interesting to watch. I did not think I
00:33:19
was going to be interested.
00:33:20
>> I was I'm not going to lie. His name is
00:33:21
Alex Honold. I was literally talking
00:33:22
[ __ ] about it before we started watching
00:33:24
it. I was like, I why would I watch
00:33:25
that?
00:33:26
>> Yeah.
00:33:26
>> Couldn't stop.
00:33:27
>> Yeah. Alex, what is it?
00:33:29
>> Honold.
00:33:29
>> Honold. He climbed like a skyscraper in
00:33:33
>> uh Tempe.
00:33:34
>> Tempe. Yeah. I was like, it begins with
00:33:35
a T. Um
00:33:37
>> he like free climbed it.
00:33:38
>> Yeah.
00:33:39
>> With like no rope or anything. It's
00:33:40
honestly it was live on Netflix and John
00:33:43
and I
00:33:43
>> remarkable thing.
00:33:44
>> We turned I know we're going off on a
00:33:46
tangent right now, but this is what you
00:33:48
come for. But [laughter]
00:33:49
>> I can't help it. This is how my brain
00:33:51
works. But John and I were turning on
00:33:54
something. Oh, we were turning on
00:33:55
Frankenstein on Netflix, I remember. And
00:33:57
I opened it and that was on the
00:33:59
homepage. It was like live when he was
00:34:01
actually climbing it live.
00:34:03
>> And I was like, "What is this?" And we
00:34:04
were like, "Let's just see it for a
00:34:05
second." And we were like, "We're not.
00:34:07
This is crazy."
00:34:08
>> We put it on. We watched it till the
00:34:10
end. I had to watch him get to the
00:34:11
tippity top.
00:34:13
>> I was fascinated by it.
00:34:14
>> He did it in less than 2 hours. And it's
00:34:16
uh
00:34:17
>> No ropes. Taipei 101. and it's a
00:34:19
Taiwanese skyscraper and it's the 11th
00:34:21
tallest building in the world, but
00:34:23
highly recommend watching it. It was
00:34:25
very interesting.
00:34:25
>> It was really good. And then I actually
00:34:27
do want to finish it. We didn't get to
00:34:29
um the documentary the documentary. I'm
00:34:31
trying to find what it's called. It I
00:34:32
think it won an Oscar recently.
00:34:34
>> Isn't it called like free solo or
00:34:36
something? It's about Alex clo climbing
00:34:40
El Capitan which is like the
00:34:42
>> one of the craziest rocks.
00:34:44
>> Free solo. Good call.
00:34:45
>> Free solo. Yeah. But that that part
00:34:46
where they do scan his brain, I I I
00:34:49
wanted to bring it up on the pod cuz I
00:34:50
do just think that's really fascinating.
00:34:52
It is. And I think we could really get
00:34:54
somewhere.
00:34:54
>> Yes.
00:34:55
>> And you know, maybe we could possibly
00:34:57
treat serial killers someday if we
00:34:59
figure out what in their brain is going.
00:35:01
>> Stop them before it could get to a
00:35:02
certain point. Maybe you can start cuz
00:35:05
the whole point
00:35:06
>> that we I just want us to get to
00:35:08
sometime is to get to the point where we
00:35:10
are stopping them before it even gets to
00:35:13
a point where it even starts becoming an
00:35:15
issue. Like recognize it when they're a
00:35:17
kid and be able to treat that ahead of
00:35:19
time so it never becomes even slightly
00:35:21
in fruition.
00:35:22
>> Yeah. Like
00:35:24
there's got to be something different.
00:35:25
>> Yeah. Because Dennis said once he was in
00:35:27
his apartment it was like he was in an
00:35:29
entirely different world.
00:35:30
>> Interesting. He would leave that day job
00:35:33
and it was totally different world.
00:35:35
>> It's wild.
00:35:36
>> He said, "I remember being thrilled that
00:35:38
I had full control and ownership of this
00:35:40
beautiful body. I was fascinated by the
00:35:43
mystery of death."
00:35:44
>> Which like, cool. You're fascinated by
00:35:46
death. That's okay.
00:35:47
>> Go to the body farm.
00:35:48
>> Go do something
00:35:51
>> good with it. Like go do something that
00:35:53
can help people or like what what are
00:35:56
you doing, sir?
00:35:57
>> Hey, you're killing people. He wants
00:35:59
complete dominion over somebody else's
00:36:01
entire existence.
00:36:03
>> Yeah.
00:36:04
>> It's very Jeffrey Dmeresque the I would
00:36:06
be very interested and maybe we should
00:36:08
do it at some point to compare and
00:36:10
contrast the two of them.
00:36:12
>> Yeah.
00:36:12
>> Because
00:36:13
>> they seem to have the same desperate
00:36:16
need to keep some because Jeffrey Dmer
00:36:19
said the same thing. He said I just
00:36:20
wanted them to stay. He would do
00:36:22
anything for them to stay. And it's
00:36:24
that's not saying that like oh these
00:36:27
these they just wanted them to stay, you
00:36:30
know, like there's something so off in
00:36:33
their brain that they're like, no, I
00:36:34
want them to stay and I will literally
00:36:36
do anything to keep them staying whether
00:36:39
they want to or not. That's the
00:36:40
important thing. Like I don't care about
00:36:42
a person's autonomy.
00:36:43
>> I don't want them to have autonomy. Like
00:36:45
Jeffrey Dmer tried to create zombies.
00:36:46
Like
00:36:47
>> Well, I was that's what I was actually
00:36:48
just going to bring up and I don't I
00:36:50
mean Merolian part two. Does Dennis
00:36:52
Nelson never do that? uh he doesn't go
00:36:54
full Jeffrey Dmer.
00:36:54
>> So I guess that's the contrast there.
00:36:56
But I wonder even what that is about
00:36:58
where it's like Jeffrey Dmer almost
00:36:59
wanted to make these people alive again
00:37:02
in a certain way
00:37:03
>> whereas Dennis Nielsen is just happy
00:37:06
with
00:37:06
>> well he likes to turn them into dolls.
00:37:09
>> Dolls. Yeah.
00:37:10
>> Which is a similar It is similar
00:37:13
pathology in a way because regardless of
00:37:17
what it's a it's a different mechanism
00:37:19
or pathway that they're taking to get
00:37:20
there. But either way, they want to end
00:37:23
with complete
00:37:24
>> control
00:37:25
>> control of the person,
00:37:26
>> right?
00:37:27
>> One of them is just trying to make it so
00:37:29
that they're more um
00:37:31
>> animated to be animated. There you go.
00:37:33
And then the then Dennis is just saying,
00:37:35
"Well, I'll just put them where I want
00:37:36
to put them." And
00:37:37
>> right,
00:37:38
>> that's how I'll have control.
00:37:39
>> Yeah. I honest I unfortunately I think
00:37:41
we would find more comparisons than
00:37:43
contrasts.
00:37:44
>> I think so. Uh, but in September 1981,
00:37:47
Dennis was returning home from work when
00:37:49
he spotted 24year-old Malcolm Barlo.
00:37:52
Like many of Dennis's victims, Barlo
00:37:54
looked very young for his age, and he'd
00:37:56
led a very difficult life. Both of
00:37:59
Malcolm's parents had died when he was
00:38:00
young, and he was raised in a rotating
00:38:02
selection of foster homes and
00:38:04
residential facilities.
00:38:05
>> That's awful. In addition to cognitive
00:38:08
and developmental disorders, he also
00:38:10
suffered from epilepsy,
00:38:12
>> which he generally lacked the capacity
00:38:15
and resources to manage without any
00:38:17
help, which is so sad.
00:38:19
>> That's tough to manage with help.
00:38:20
>> Yeah. Uh he he wasn't really able to
00:38:23
maintain employment for very long. So,
00:38:25
he would have to turn to sex work to get
00:38:26
by a lot of times. And sometimes he
00:38:29
would
00:38:30
he would just like he was kind of
00:38:32
desperate for money most of the time and
00:38:33
desperate to like get by and just get
00:38:35
food in his mouth and shelter at times.
00:38:38
So sometimes he would go as far as like
00:38:40
blackmailing the men he slept with in
00:38:42
order to extort money out of them. It's
00:38:44
just part of like a whole con thing.
00:38:46
>> Yeah. It's pretty common.
00:38:47
>> Yeah. Now on the morning of September
00:38:49
I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just
00:38:50
saying not good that that happens.
00:38:52
>> It was part of like that craziness.
00:38:54
>> Yeah. It's a desperation.
00:38:56
>> On the morning of September 17th, Dennis
00:38:58
left his apartment for work, and he'd
00:39:00
only made it a few houses down the
00:39:02
street when he came upon Malcolm Barlo.
00:39:05
He was sitting on the sidewalk with his
00:39:06
back against a stone wall. Dennis
00:39:09
stopped to see if he was all right, and
00:39:10
Barlo explained that the pills he'd
00:39:12
taken for his epilepsy had made him
00:39:14
dizzy, and his legs had given out
00:39:15
beneath him.
00:39:17
>> Dennis helped Barlo to his feet and
00:39:18
brought him back to his apartment, where
00:39:20
he fixed him a cup of tea and called for
00:39:22
an ambulance. You might be seeing why
00:39:24
he's called the kindly killer,
00:39:25
>> okay,
00:39:26
>> with these kind of things. Uh, the
00:39:28
ambulance came a short time later and
00:39:30
once Barlo had been taken away, Dennis
00:39:32
went to work and thought nothing more of
00:39:34
this incident.
00:39:34
>> It's really weird that like empathy was
00:39:36
shown there.
00:39:36
>> That's the thing.
00:39:37
>> Like that's not
00:39:38
>> He's a strange cat.
00:39:40
>> He's a strange cat.
00:39:42
>> Don't even call him a cat. Get out of
00:39:43
here.
00:39:44
The next day, when Barlo was released
00:39:47
from the hospital, he returned to
00:39:48
Dennis's apartment and sat down on the
00:39:50
steps to wait for him to return from
00:39:52
work.
00:39:53
>> Oh man. When he arrived home, Dennis was
00:39:55
surprised to see him sitting there,
00:39:56
assuming he would still be in the
00:39:57
hospital, but he invited him inside.
00:40:00
That evening, Dennis made dinner for
00:40:02
both of them, and they just sat on the
00:40:03
couch together, watching television,
00:40:05
drinking rum and coke, just hanging out.
00:40:07
>> Yeah.
00:40:08
>> After two drinks, Barlo passed out.
00:40:10
Dennis slapped him in the face thinking
00:40:12
he was having another episode um and he
00:40:15
would need to call an ambulance again,
00:40:16
but instead he just sat in the chair
00:40:18
thinking about what he should do.
00:40:20
>> Okay.
00:40:21
>> Until that point, uh Dennis's murders
00:40:23
had been definitely psychosexually
00:40:26
motivated for sure.
00:40:27
>> And again, very loosely planned.
00:40:31
>> Yeah.
00:40:31
>> You know, like kind of sloppy, kind of
00:40:33
just of the moment. Yeah. But in the
00:40:35
case of Malcolm Barlo, the murder was
00:40:38
not planned and it wasn't really
00:40:40
motivated like by anything sexual.
00:40:44
It was really just like in in Dennis
00:40:48
Nelson's mind that he presented an
00:40:51
inconvenience for him.
00:40:53
>> Oh.
00:40:53
>> Uh for the second time in two days, this
00:40:56
stranger had, according to Dennis,
00:40:58
interrupted his life. And here he is
00:41:00
again needing to possibly provide
00:41:03
emergency care for someone he didn't
00:41:04
know. This is according to Dennis.
00:41:06
>> Yeah, of course. Um I take back what I
00:41:08
said about empathy.
00:41:09
>> Yeah. Um and given the events of that
00:41:12
day, who's to say Barlo wouldn't be
00:41:14
discharged from the hospital and show up
00:41:16
at Dennis's apartment again and start
00:41:18
the cycle over again? Again, this is
00:41:20
according to Dennis. Yes.
00:41:22
>> Uh this is where his wild mind goes is
00:41:24
not, oh, I helped this guy
00:41:27
>> and I did a good thing, right? And then
00:41:29
this guy showed back up thinking I'm a
00:41:31
safe place because I did that for him
00:41:33
and just wanted to hang out for a little
00:41:35
while. He's like, "No, now he's just
00:41:36
going to rely on me."
00:41:38
>> Yeah.
00:41:39
>> So instead of calling the ambulance or
00:41:42
police to have Barlo removed from his
00:41:44
house because he's still not sure if
00:41:45
he's having an episode or if he just
00:41:47
passed out, Dennis made the deliberate
00:41:49
decision to go to just get rid of him.
00:41:52
He said later, "Putting my hands around
00:41:54
his throat, I squeezed tightly. I held
00:41:56
that position for about 2 or 3 minutes
00:41:58
and released my hold. I didn't check,
00:42:00
but I believed him to be now dead. So,
00:42:04
with Barlo now dead, Dennis put him in
00:42:07
the cupboard where he'd stashed all the
00:42:09
others, and then he returned to the
00:42:11
couch. He finished his drink and went to
00:42:13
bed.
00:42:14
>> Wow.
00:42:14
>> Just that casually.
00:42:16
>> It's interesting, too, cuz I don't I
00:42:17
don't know if I'm right here, but uh
00:42:19
that's the first time he's manually
00:42:21
strangled somebody.
00:42:22
>> Yeah. Yeah, it seems like he's using um
00:42:24
like a neck tie or a cord.
00:42:26
>> Yeah. Interesting that he was like
00:42:28
irritated beforehand and then manually
00:42:30
strangled.
00:42:31
>> That is an interesting little
00:42:33
difference.
00:42:34
>> Yeah. So, by the time he put Barlo's
00:42:37
body in the cupboard, Nelson's apartment
00:42:39
had become so crowded with dead bodies
00:42:42
that he needed to do something about it
00:42:44
or risk his neighbors catching on to
00:42:45
what was happening. That's how many
00:42:47
bodies were in his apartment. I'm
00:42:48
surprised it could even get past a
00:42:50
certain point like that. We're only now
00:42:52
reaching that point.
00:42:53
>> Well, it was in the colder months, the
00:42:55
decomposition had been stalled, right?
00:42:57
But with the warmer weather, the bodies
00:42:59
under the floors started decomposing at
00:43:01
a rapid rate. And with that process came
00:43:04
the inevitable orders and bugs.
00:43:07
>> Oh no.
00:43:08
>> Yes. He had tried to hide the evidence
00:43:10
of death by covering the bodies with
00:43:12
deodorizer spray and insecticide.
00:43:15
Oh my. But those did very little to mask
00:43:19
the obvious.
00:43:20
>> Not insecticide.
00:43:21
>> Further complicating things was the fact
00:43:23
that just a few weeks earlier, his
00:43:24
landlord had informed him they were
00:43:26
going to be renovating the entire
00:43:28
building
00:43:29
>> and we're asking everyone to move out.
00:43:32
At first, Dennis resisted, but when the
00:43:34
landlord offered him like a good sum of
00:43:36
money to leave the um before the end of
00:43:38
the lease, he happily accepted.
00:43:41
>> Okay. One night in late September 1981,
00:43:45
just a few days before he was moving out
00:43:48
of the building on Melrose Avenue,
00:43:50
Dennis Nilson removed the bodies from
00:43:52
their hiding spaces one by one and
00:43:54
dismembered what was left of their
00:43:56
remains. A relatively easy process given
00:43:59
how much time had passed in the
00:44:01
decomposition.
00:44:02
Once that was complete, he carried the
00:44:05
remains out to the bonfire in the back
00:44:07
garden where he disposed of Stephven
00:44:08
Holmes's body and burned what was left
00:44:10
of his victims in a roaring fire. In
00:44:14
order to disguise the smell of burning
00:44:16
human remains,
00:44:16
>> I was going to ask that.
00:44:18
>> He threw an old tire into the pit,
00:44:20
hoping the smell of burning rubber would
00:44:22
ward off any questions.
00:44:23
>> Oh, I feel like that would make it even
00:44:24
worse.
00:44:25
>> It absolutely did, but he could just say
00:44:26
it's the it's the tire.
00:44:28
>> Okay. Now, in October, Dennis left the
00:44:31
apartment on Bel Melrose Avenue and
00:44:33
moved into a small attic apartment on
00:44:35
Cranley Gardens. You might remember that
00:44:37
from part one in London's Muzwell Hill
00:44:40
neighborhood. The layout and location of
00:44:42
the apartment immediately presented a
00:44:44
problem for Dennis because it had no
00:44:47
private garden and was an attic unit, so
00:44:49
there was no space between the
00:44:51
floorboards. Ah,
00:44:52
>> it is maybe because of those factors
00:44:54
that Dennis would ultimately wait
00:44:56
several months before committing another
00:44:57
murder.
00:44:58
>> Yeah. Now, it wasn't like he didn't
00:45:01
think about killing in this time. Like,
00:45:03
that wasn't like he just was like, "You
00:45:05
know what? I'm not going to be that
00:45:06
person."
00:45:07
>> Um, and he even came pretty close one
00:45:09
night in late November. On the afternoon
00:45:11
of November 23rd, he met 19-year-old
00:45:14
Paul Knobs, a student of European
00:45:16
studies at a local bookstore. They
00:45:18
chatted for a short time before Dennis
00:45:20
invited him back to his apartment for
00:45:22
dinner, and he agreed. After Dennis
00:45:24
prepared dinner, they sat on the couch
00:45:26
and watched television while having a
00:45:28
few drinks, the normal thing he does.
00:45:30
>> After one or two drinks, Knobs called
00:45:32
his mother to say he'd be home soon. He
00:45:34
was only 19.
00:45:35
>> Oh.
00:45:35
>> But in a short but a short time later,
00:45:37
he began feeling ill and called again to
00:45:39
say he was instead going to stay the
00:45:41
night with a friend.
00:45:42
>> Oh no.
00:45:43
>> The next morning when Knobs woke up, he
00:45:45
was very hung over.
00:45:47
>> I'm actually surprised he was he made it
00:45:49
through the night there. So he staggered
00:45:50
to the bathroom and when he looked in
00:45:52
the mirror, he saw he had a deep red
00:45:54
mark around his neck and some bruising.
00:45:57
>> Oh. Though he had no recollection of
00:46:00
what had happened or what could have
00:46:01
caused the injury,
00:46:02
>> so he was likely drugged.
00:46:04
>> Yeah. Before leaving, Dennis gave Knobs
00:46:07
his phone number and told him he should
00:46:09
go see a doctor because he looked
00:46:10
terrible.
00:46:12
>> What? After leaving, Paul stumbled down
00:46:14
the street to a local pub where he ran
00:46:16
into one of his friends from school, and
00:46:18
the other man helped him get to the
00:46:20
University College Hospital nearby. Upon
00:46:23
being examined, the emergency room
00:46:25
doctor informed Knobs that quote, "His
00:46:27
symptoms were consistent with a classic
00:46:29
case of strangulation."
00:46:30
>> Yeah. He was given some tranquilizers
00:46:32
and told to go home and rest, which he
00:46:34
did. Ultimately, it took about 5 days
00:46:37
before he was well enough to leave his
00:46:39
apartment, but the mark on his neck
00:46:40
remained for nearly 3 months. Oh my god.
00:46:43
>> Yeah, he never reported the incident to
00:46:46
the police. And when the doctor asked
00:46:47
what happened, he said he'd been mugged.
00:46:49
>> Okay.
00:46:50
>> Now, maybe his inability to store the
00:46:54
body somewhere in the apartment
00:46:56
prevented Dennis from fully murdering
00:46:58
Paul Knobs. It's crazy though to think
00:47:00
that obviously he started strangling him
00:47:03
and stopped at some point. The fact that
00:47:04
he stopped is not something we come
00:47:07
across very often.
00:47:08
>> No. the way like how deep that was and
00:47:11
how like intense that was. He obviously
00:47:13
stopped and started a few times. I think
00:47:15
that's probably why he took so long to
00:47:17
recover because
00:47:18
>> I wonder like lack of oxygen to the
00:47:20
brain and all that. Really scary.
00:47:22
>> He probably It's awful.
00:47:24
>> Um but this might be why Paul Knobs
00:47:27
lived is because he had nowhere to store
00:47:29
his body, right?
00:47:30
>> Which is horrifying to think of.
00:47:33
>> So if he had somewhere to put you, you
00:47:34
were going to be gone. But whatever the
00:47:37
case, Dennis's, you know, little pause
00:47:40
on like moratorum on murdering people
00:47:42
wouldn't last very long. In early March
00:47:45
1982, Dennis was drinking at St.
00:47:47
Martins's Lane when he saw a face he
00:47:49
recognized from the pub a few months
00:47:51
earlier. Like many of Dennis's victims,
00:47:54
John Howlet had a long history with the
00:47:56
police. And after being kicked out of
00:47:58
his parents house at age 13,
00:48:00
>> he'd struggled to find to support
00:48:02
himself, frequently resorting to petty
00:48:04
crime.
00:48:05
like a 13-year-old.
00:48:06
>> I know. It makes me so sad. It really
00:48:08
does. Dennis met John at the pub in
00:48:11
December, not long after he moved to
00:48:13
Cranley Gardens, but he didn't invite
00:48:15
him back to his apartment that night
00:48:17
that he had met him. At St. Martin's
00:48:19
Lane, John pulled up a chair next to
00:48:21
Dennis at the bar and ordered a drink.
00:48:23
But when the bartender took too long to
00:48:25
return, Jon suggested they leave and go
00:48:27
find somewhere else with better service.
00:48:29
Dennis agreed, but rather than find
00:48:32
another bar, he was like, "Let's go back
00:48:33
to my apartment and I can make us some
00:48:35
dinner."
00:48:36
>> Yeah.
00:48:36
>> So, they went back. But around 1:00
00:48:38
a.m., John excused himself, implying
00:48:40
that he was going to the bathroom. When
00:48:42
he failed to return after 10 or 15
00:48:44
minutes, Dennis went to look for him and
00:48:46
found the man asleep in his bed.
00:48:47
>> Oh. Um cuz remember, he's he's been
00:48:50
kicked out of his house since he was 13.
00:48:52
Yeah. He probably doesn't have a whole
00:48:53
lot of places to stay. He's probably
00:48:54
just tired.
00:48:55
>> Yeah. And also, I think there's a very
00:48:57
high likelihood with how fast these
00:48:59
people are passing out that he's
00:49:00
drugging them. So, Dennis roused him and
00:49:03
suggested he call a cab to take him
00:49:05
home.
00:49:06
>> And John said, "No, thank you." And he
00:49:08
was like, "I'm too tired to leave."
00:49:10
>> Which also
00:49:12
>> does suggest drugging.
00:49:13
>> That's Dennis Nelson's version of
00:49:14
events, too. He's like, "I tried to get
00:49:16
him to leave."
00:49:16
>> Yeah. I wasn't planning on it. Like
00:49:18
Malcolm Barlo, John represented a change
00:49:21
in Dennis's pattern. Although he had
00:49:24
picked the man up at a bar, it seems
00:49:26
like he had no interest in engaging in
00:49:29
sex with him or killing him, which is
00:49:31
two of the things he usually wants to do
00:49:32
when he picks someone up.
00:49:34
>> In fact, he had, according to him and
00:49:36
according to all accounts, he had tried
00:49:38
to get John out of the house a few times
00:49:42
that night.
00:49:43
>> Um, and John's refusal to leave and
00:49:46
inability to leave is what I think it
00:49:47
was, not straight out refusal, right? Um
00:49:50
it is according to Dennis so profoundly
00:49:53
irritated him that he ended up for the
00:49:56
second time really that we can point to
00:49:58
killing out of pure anger.
00:50:00
>> Okay.
00:50:01
>> Other than his usual motive.
00:50:03
>> Um according to Dennis he said I went to
00:50:05
the armchair and under the cushion there
00:50:07
was a length of loose upholstery strap.
00:50:09
I wound this material around his neck. I
00:50:12
think I said it's about time you went.
00:50:14
Oh.
00:50:16
When he says, "I think I said it's about
00:50:19
time you went."
00:50:21
Think about that in your head. How
00:50:22
[ __ ] scary that is.
00:50:24
>> Yeah. This man is about to strangle you
00:50:26
and saying, "I think it's about time you
00:50:28
went."
00:50:28
>> Yeah.
00:50:29
>> That's just so like gross. Like it's so
00:50:31
cold.
00:50:32
>> Yeah.
00:50:33
>> He said using all of his strength, he
00:50:34
pulled hard on the strap as he straddled
00:50:37
John, causing him to wake with a shock
00:50:39
cuz he's asleep when he did this.
00:50:41
>> For the most part, Dennis's victims were
00:50:43
younger than he is he was. and generally
00:50:46
smaller in stature.
00:50:48
>> So they were he liked that he wanted to
00:50:50
easily overpower them,
00:50:51
>> right?
00:50:52
>> John Howlet, on the other hand, was a
00:50:54
former military guardsman and was
00:50:56
obviously larger and more powerful than
00:50:58
Dennis.
00:50:58
>> Definitely.
00:50:59
>> Dennis later said, "He fought back
00:51:01
furiously and partially raised himself
00:51:03
up. I thought I'd be overpowered."
00:51:06
The two of them fought violently on the
00:51:08
bed for a short time until Jon hit his
00:51:10
head on the headboard, causing him to
00:51:12
lose consciousness.
00:51:13
>> Oh no. Once he was no longer struggling,
00:51:15
Dennis dragged him to the bathroom and
00:51:17
began filling the tub. After hoisting
00:51:20
his body over the edge, he held his head
00:51:22
under the water for nearly 10 minutes.
00:51:25
>> Holy.
00:51:26
>> Until he was certain that John Howlet
00:51:27
was dead.
00:51:28
>> My god. Dennis left his body hanging
00:51:31
over the edge of the tub and then just
00:51:33
returned to bed and went to sleep.
00:51:37
>> What? These are the parts of these
00:51:39
stories that like
00:51:42
like obviously killing another human
00:51:43
being is unthinkable, but then like
00:51:45
these strange aftermaths are the things
00:51:48
that really get me cuz he just finishes
00:51:50
his dinner or his
00:51:51
>> just leaves him hanging over the edge of
00:51:53
the tub and then just gets in his bed
00:51:57
and goes to sleep. Meanwhile, I actually
00:52:00
can't sleep on my right side because if
00:52:02
I do, my back is to like an open space
00:52:04
in my room,
00:52:06
>> and I'm like too afraid of the unknown
00:52:08
there.
00:52:09
>> And this man's just going to sleep with
00:52:11
a dead body that he just killed in his
00:52:13
bathroom.
00:52:14
>> Yeah.
00:52:15
>> Like I'm afraid of ghosts in my home.
00:52:17
>> Yeah.
00:52:18
>> And this man is just
00:52:19
>> Mhm.
00:52:20
>> doing that. I can't go to bed with a
00:52:22
full sink of dishes of dirty dishes. You
00:52:25
know what? That's That gets me.
00:52:27
>> I applaud that.
00:52:28
>> Yeah. Like that gets me. I will have a I
00:52:30
will have
00:52:31
>> trouble going to sleep knowing cuz I
00:52:34
will think about that dirty sink full of
00:52:36
dishes and I'll be like, I'm going to
00:52:37
have to do that tomorrow and I can't do
00:52:38
it. I can't do it.
00:52:40
>> John's the same way.
00:52:41
>> I
00:52:43
is going to bed with a a a young man who
00:52:48
he just brutally murdered his body
00:52:51
hanging over the side of the bath in his
00:52:53
bathroom.
00:52:55
I just can't. My brain will not wrap
00:52:57
around because human beings and I mean
00:53:01
lately I feel in like in the world right
00:53:03
now
00:53:04
>> my brain is struggling with humans
00:53:07
lately. Like I'm just sitting there
00:53:09
being like
00:53:10
>> I don't understand how people are like
00:53:12
this. Like I don't understand how as a
00:53:14
species
00:53:15
>> we are this
00:53:16
>> [ __ ] horrific. Like I really can't.
00:53:19
And I don't get how some of us aren't
00:53:23
>> but some of us are. I'm like where?
00:53:25
>> That's what I mean about the brains. We
00:53:27
got to
00:53:28
>> That's the thing.
00:53:28
>> Yeah. I don't know
00:53:29
>> cuz how are we so different? I don't And
00:53:33
it's like I don't ever want to think
00:53:34
that anyone has the capacity to do this.
00:53:38
>> Unfortunately, a lot of people have the
00:53:40
capacity.
00:53:40
>> That's the thing with so many people
00:53:42
have the capacity to do this and it's
00:53:44
really scary to think about when you
00:53:46
really deeply go down that road.
00:53:49
>> A lot of men have the capacity.
00:53:51
>> Yeah. This is just
00:53:52
>> I also think studying the difference
00:53:54
between men and women's brains would be
00:53:55
interesting just because obviously women
00:53:57
are killers but like there are women
00:54:00
killers but there are so [snorts] many
00:54:02
more male killers.
00:54:04
>> So it makes you wonder
00:54:06
>> is there something in a man's brain that
00:54:08
is more likely to to set off and make
00:54:11
this happen and like do I don't know you
00:54:15
know.
00:54:15
>> Yeah. I just I just brains man
00:54:18
>> because you could like it's like killing
00:54:20
someone is such a something you can't
00:54:22
wrap your brain around. You just can't
00:54:24
like snuffing out someone else's life.
00:54:26
>> No, I actually I have dreams sometimes
00:54:28
where I've killed somebody or I find out
00:54:30
that I've killed somebody and I like
00:54:32
feel the guilt in those dreams of like
00:54:34
how am I like Immar
00:54:36
how am I supposed to go on and like I I
00:54:38
can't believe I've just done that. But
00:54:39
then it's like the smaller like
00:54:41
relatively like in comparison acts of
00:54:43
like leaving the body in your apartment
00:54:46
while you just go to sleep that I'm like
00:54:48
>> that [ __ ] is up a register. It's just
00:54:51
like cuz it's just like what and now
00:54:52
you're just going about your business.
00:54:55
>> Yeah.
00:54:55
>> I just don't I or just going to sleep
00:54:57
with a dead body in your heart. I can't
00:54:59
go to sleep if I like think I've been
00:55:00
rude to somebody throughout the day.
00:55:01
Like I could
00:55:02
>> the guilt I feel for like the the
00:55:05
smallest interaction versus snuffing out
00:55:08
someone's life. I can't imagine.
00:55:09
>> Or like being in the Lizzy Bordon house
00:55:12
knowing that people were murdered in
00:55:13
those rooms. I was so [ __ ] scared of
00:55:16
being in those rooms cuz I'm like and
00:55:18
that was from like a billion years ago.
00:55:20
[clears throat]
00:55:21
>> Somebody's was killed in this room and
00:55:23
they are no longer there like physically
00:55:25
there and it's like neither is the
00:55:27
person who killed them.
00:55:28
>> And I was so freaked out just to be in
00:55:29
that. I was like oh my god like Yeah,
00:55:31
>> they're here. And these people are just
00:55:34
going to sleep with a dead body in the
00:55:36
room.
00:55:37
>> Yep.
00:55:37
>> And they just have no fear response. It
00:55:40
really is. I'm like, what is your
00:55:41
amygdala doing? Like, I got to know.
00:55:44
>> I don't know. It's it's it's in the
00:55:46
amygdala and it's it's in so many other
00:55:48
places, too. I think actually a fun
00:55:50
bonus episode idea would be to look at
00:55:52
the different parts of the brain and
00:55:54
what they're responsible for and how it
00:55:56
relates to crime and decision making in
00:55:59
general. That's a good bonus episode
00:56:01
idea.
00:56:02
>> Yeah, it's horrifying.
00:56:04
>> Now, no longer able to hide the body in
00:56:07
the cupboard or under the floorboards
00:56:08
again cuz he's in that little attic. Um,
00:56:12
>> and he couldn't dispose of it in the
00:56:13
garden, he dismembered John Howlett's
00:56:16
remains and wrapped them tightly in
00:56:18
plastic and then he placed them in
00:56:20
various discrete places around his
00:56:22
apartment.
00:56:24
>> What?
00:56:25
>> Yep.
00:56:27
Okay. Also, not knowing what else to do
00:56:29
with the rest of John Howlett's body, he
00:56:31
flushed the organs down the toilet.
00:56:34
>> Ah.
00:56:35
>> And other small pieces of flesh.
00:56:38
>> Uhhuh.
00:56:38
>> He also boiled John Howlett's head,
00:56:41
hands, and feet.
00:56:43
>> Okay.
00:56:45
>> Yeah.
00:56:46
>> I remember how part one opened. So,
00:56:48
>> yeah. So Dennis Nelson's first set of
00:56:51
murders committed at the Melrose Avenue
00:56:53
apartment had all seemed to go more or
00:56:55
less according to how he had planned
00:56:57
them or barely planned them I guess.
00:56:59
>> Um but beginning with Malcolm Barlo's
00:57:02
murder right before he left the
00:57:03
apartment,
00:57:04
>> he appeared to have been becoming more
00:57:06
erratic and impulsive.
00:57:08
>> Uh he was killing not out of like some
00:57:10
kind of pathological need to. He was
00:57:13
just doing it when the opportunity
00:57:14
presented itself.
00:57:15
>> Yeah. And this is going to prove to be
00:57:18
his undoing.
00:57:20
>> That's good.
00:57:21
>> And we're going to end part two right
00:57:22
there.
00:57:23
>> Okay.
00:57:23
>> Um because I I can't really talk about
00:57:27
any more dismembered parts right now.
00:57:30
>> Okay.
00:57:30
>> And I'd like everyone to sit with that
00:57:31
one
00:57:32
>> and just know that he gets caught in the
00:57:34
next
00:57:35
>> He does get caught and we are he does he
00:57:38
takes a he takes some more lives before
00:57:40
he gets caught, but
00:57:41
>> he does get caught.
00:57:43
>> I didn't expect that.
00:57:44
>> Yeah.
00:57:46
All right. Yep. This is the cutest fun
00:57:48
fact I've ever heard in my life. And now
00:57:51
I love knowing this. Dogs tilt their
00:57:54
heads when you speak to them to better
00:57:56
pinpoint familiar words.
00:57:58
>> You know that. I know that. I am
00:58:00
obsessed. I try to get Dolores to tilt
00:58:03
her head when I talk.
00:58:04
>> They are actively listening to you when
00:58:06
they do that.
00:58:07
>> I'm obsessed with that. This is from
00:58:09
Science Focus and it says, "Your dog is
00:58:11
tilting its head when you speak to
00:58:12
pinpoint where noises are coming from
00:58:14
more quickly." Yeah. This is done to
00:58:16
listen out more accurately for familiar
00:58:18
words such as walkies and helps them
00:58:21
better understand the tone of your
00:58:22
voice. If a dog doesn't tilt its head
00:58:24
that often, as those with shorter
00:58:26
muzzles might, it's because it relies
00:58:28
less on sound and more on sight.
00:58:30
>> Yeah, I'm obsessed with that.
00:58:31
>> You know where I heard that? Tell me.
00:58:33
The girls watch this show called
00:58:35
Brainchild. I probably mentioned it on
00:58:37
here before, but if you didn't hear
00:58:38
mention it,
00:58:40
>> it was on there and they loved that
00:58:41
fact. They'll tell you that fact all day
00:58:43
long.
00:58:43
>> I'm surprised they haven't. Brainchild
00:58:46
is a great show on Netflix for your kids
00:58:48
to watch. By the way, if you're looking
00:58:50
for something
00:58:50
>> where they did that hearing test and it
00:58:52
showed that like older people don't hear
00:58:54
certain frequencies and you and I
00:58:55
literally crashed the [ __ ] out about it.
00:58:57
>> I cr I'm I remain crashing out about
00:58:59
that.
00:58:59
>> Yeah, I was not in a flow state that
00:59:01
day.
00:59:01
>> No, but brainchild really good for kids.
00:59:04
My kids love it. They've learned a lot
00:59:06
of cool like science stuff.
00:59:07
>> Yeah, they're always telling us cool
00:59:08
facts. I'm obsessed with that.
00:59:10
>> I love that fact.
00:59:11
>> I If I speak in a higher pitch, Doolo
00:59:14
always does that and I'm now I know
00:59:16
what's happening and I love it so much.
00:59:18
>> I love that.
00:59:18
>> I love dogs and I love cats and I love
00:59:20
animals.
00:59:20
>> I love them.
00:59:21
>> I'm going to be one of those old ladies
00:59:22
with like a [ __ ] like farm.
00:59:25
>> Like [ __ ] tons of animals.
00:59:26
>> Let's go, girls.
00:59:26
>> I want to be All right. Well, I'm
00:59:29
obsessed with that. I'm obsessed with
00:59:30
you guys. Wash your hands. Don't kill
00:59:33
people.
00:59:34
>> Don't do anything. spread disease um and
00:59:37
faulk ice.
00:59:38
>> Yeah. All right. We hope you keep
00:59:39
listening and we hope you keep it weird,
00:59:43
but not so weird that you are people in
00:59:46
your apartment that don't want to be
00:59:48
there anymore. [music]
00:59:48
>> No, let people have autonomy.
00:59:50
>> Let people out of your apartment if
00:59:51
they'd like to go.
00:59:52
Gosh darn.
01:00:07
[music]
01:00:17
>> [music]
01:00:30
[music]
01:00:37
[music]
01:00:48
[music]
01:00:56
[music]
01:01:02
[music]
01:01:05
[bell]
01:01:12
[music]