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hey weirdos I'm alinaa I'm Ash this is more [Music] bed this is [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]
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kid that's Mikey's big burp I like how that was just like oh we we're feeling some type of
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way things are Loosey Goosey today we're at my house the luest and the gooiest I couldn't come up with a
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response quick enough I at me blankly and I was like oh she gone it's early my coffee hasn't hit yet I tried to go to
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yoga this morning I couldn't it was a whole thing forgot her mat halfway there and I [ __ ] realized it I was like are
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you joking me are you joking me you're joking me mate true yeah um what's up dog what what's up dog you're almost
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writing a book High I am almost riding a book high it's so close by the time this
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comes out I think it'll be like two days ago that it came out so you'll be on the
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high in the future this is awesome I'm so excited for you now and in the future I'm so excited I'm excited for you guys
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to read the butcher game and and people have been grabbing the Butcher and the ren recently a lot like to start the
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series which is so [ __ ] awesome well you have to guys like if you you have to if you didn't read the Butcher and the
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ren I would read that before you read the butcher game yeah for sure it's set you all up it's all chronological yeah a
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lot of backstory a lot of a lot of shockers you know but the butcher game is longer she she thicker she she I
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think she's more brutal personally she 100% is there's no doubt my mind I don't think there's any doubt there um but
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yeah you can still go go get her some go get her go get her she's selling like a
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bestseller you won't be disappointed I think I hope I pray you won't I loved it I liked it better than Butcher and The
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Ren and I loved Butcher and the ren I also have seen people who got the ark Advanced reader copies reviewing it and
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I've seen like so many great reviews everybody who's reviewed it has been so sweet and so kind andov one girl she
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posted a picture we should shout her out oh book talkers like books to grammars I
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like books to grammar that's fun the prettiest like displays of a book yes it always they have a way of making me want
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to read any book and espe it's like they always make it look gorgeous this one Creator on Instagram Michelle reads
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Thrillers yes I was just I just saw that the way that she set the book up like to
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take the picture of it I was like okay oh it's beautiful they're all like they're they're amazing that way yeah it
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was Gorge I was I was impressed i l it I can barely take a good nail picture in my [ __ ] car so I can't take any good
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photos of things sorry guys had a cat hair in my ey I have so many cats all the cats and I love them I also love
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those cats yeah Franklin and I have become best friends so I mean we've always been best friends but I feel like
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we really solidified our relationship the other day he crawled on my lap and he snuggled into me and I almost passed
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away I like cats like I like cats just fine you're an animal person I just love animals yeah but like cats were never my
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favorite like it just wasn't my thing for a long time but then I metor and I was like oh [ __ ] these cats
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are cool that's the thing I feel like cats like like morph to their owner and I like to personally think that I'm like
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wicked cool yeah so my cats are like wicked cool is it still in [Music] there well I'm glad you got that cat
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High Holo W I'm glad you got that cat hair out of your eye I was going to say cat and then ey so it just went Kai
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k it's still in there but you know by the end of this I'm sure it'll make its way out I don't see anything in there
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yeah I wonder if you got glitter in there cuz your face is a little bit glittery did you got like highlighter in
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your eye I don't think I got highlighter all right let's get into this so go we got part two of The Strange very
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mysterious death of Cindy jeam very strange case so far super strange it's only going to get stranger to be honest
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oh boy yeah so at the end of part one detective Bower Smith got involved in Cindy's case which was really starting
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to ramp up he in the past had worked closely with Pat McBride who remember he was like the responding officer Cindy
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started seeing him yep detective bowier Smith worked closely with him like I said and trusted him so he wanted to
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trust what Cindy was saying of course but something in his gut was telling him that there was just just something was
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off about her story something was missing his gut just didn't feel right about it so on a hunch he ended up
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asking her to take a polygraph exam and unfortunately the results did literally nothing to alleviate his suspicions
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whatsoever her test showed signs of deception but instead of confronting her with the results like right off the bat
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he asked her if she'd be willing to submit to another exam and again the results indicated that she was being
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dishonest being deceptive so so now he's convinced that he caught her going to lie cuz that's like you know I we I mean
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we always say it h dog in a trench coat but like it's it is interesting when somebody because you can it's I don't
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know it's like it really goes both ways like I feel like polygraphs are so difficult to have any kind of stance on
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yeah cuz I know that like if you like if you're nervous that can show a deception
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you hook me up to a polygraph right now I'm going to be my anxiety level is going to be at a billion just because of
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the nature of being hooked up to something that can determine your physiological response to questions
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brain would be like you're lying you're lying even if I was telling the truth that's the thing it's like when you go
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through TSA at the airport and you're like know you don't have a weapon on you or like Contraband of any kind but every
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time I go through I'm like what if I have a gun and I and I don't like I don't I know I what if I accidentally
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put a gun that I don't have in my carry like oh my God what if I put a machete that I don't have in my God suitcase and
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it's like so your brain will just make you go like oh [ __ ] I like that makes sense that you do that I think oh did I
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pack a full-size product that they're going to throw out I literally I'm worried I bought I brought like a full
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bomb with me I'm just like did I bring that new Hairspray that I got and I they're going to get rid of it and I'm
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going to be sad yeah see that's and it happens all like your brain can trick you in insane ways so I feel like in a
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polygraph exam you hook me up to that [ __ ] I'm going to be like have I lied about everything that I've ever known by
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like I'd be like is anything real is my name even Ash they'd be like is your name Elena I'd be like I honestly don't
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know my mom says I can't be sure but who she to say I don't know look I I was there but I don't remember that's the
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thing well Cindy so berer Smith detective Byer Smith confronts Cindy with the results because of course it
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means something yeah you know we laugh about how of that but like it it is interesting when you have
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other suspicions especially having two deceptive is that a word deceptive yeah tests in a row you know that makes sense
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so he confronts her with the results and she immediately bursts into tears which
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honestly I probably would have done the same yeah but also it doesn't make you look great very suspicious but also yep
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but also like at the grocery store if the Wind Blows the wrong way so just being
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confronted with that would be horrifying oh yeah no I can't handle that and she couldn't either no and according to her
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the reason why the results showed deception was because contrary to what she actually said in her statement about
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the attack that happened in the garage how she was attacked by like multiple men and it got really violent she said
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she actually did know the identity of one of these men who had attacked her but she was terrified that if she named
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him he would return to harm her family okay and this is where I say well now that's suspish because yeah you are
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you have now compounded what could be interpreted as a lie yeah on top of deceptive results of a polygraph exam to
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cover the deceptive results yeah and it's just like I I don't it's just strange because again I can understand
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that you if she's scared that this person will hurt her family family or hurt her if if she names them that is a
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reality that many people go through in these kind of situations happens but it's also like but like this has been a
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big part of your life right and if you know the name of one of the people we might be able to end this this could
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stop right so why wouldn't you just say it right and also the police would be much more likely to be able to protect
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you if they know who they're protecting you from exactly so it's like I to my initial feeling about that if I was that
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investigator would be it kind of seems like you're you're trying to fix deception with more deception you're
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yanking my chain is what he thought yeah and I but you can see it both ways I see
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both sides of this cuz I I see her not wanting to to say anything cuz she's so scared and I see being on the detective
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side of things being like what the [ __ ] then we can't protect we don't know if
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you know who it is we can protect you from that person like right we can't protect you from an unknown human
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exactly so the results of the polygraph exam were certainly unusual and her her response was certainly unusual and bow
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Smith wasn't ready yet to rule out the possibility that she was lying but he also had to admit that it was hard to
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believe somebody would keep up such an aggressive and pretty extreme charade for attention like he didn't he felt
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like she was lying but also he was like why would she lie about this just for attention like and keep it going for so
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long and cuz and and ramp it up you know and Cindy hadn't been alone in her claims and that was the other thing Pat
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McBride was convinced that she was telling the truth and actually he himself even answered some of the phone
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calls that were coming in like the weird obscene ones but in the cases where Pat
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picked up the phone the caller would like heavy breathe and then hang up he Pat never heard the voice unless it was
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on the answering machine now despite the chaos and stress of the ongoing harassment the other aspects of Cindy's
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life actually seemed to be going pretty well relatively well she was well-liked she was successful at work she had
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actually got several promotions between 75 and 83 the years not that many promotions I was like wow you're like
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that's a lot of [ __ ] promotions but the after the attack in the garage she did file a workers comp claim so that
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she could take time off to recover yeah and when she was ready to return her employer was really happy to have her
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back but they requested that she attend a counseling session with a psychiatrist
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that way they could clear her to return to a high press environment cuz she's a nurse remember yeah she's in healthcare
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so she's in healthare that makes perfect yeah so the request to consult with a psychiatrist was immediately rejected by
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Cindy unfortunately at that point she had nothing but negative experiences with mental health professionals I mean
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that is true and also remember the time period mental health is still to this day stigmatized it's a lot better but
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back then but back then seeking help for your mental health was seen as a weakness like just that's how it was
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yeah and she was worried that she would be quote stigmatized as unbalanced if she went to see a psychiatrist because
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and that could have something to do with the case too it's like could make her seem like she's admitting yeah you know
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that maybe some of this is her head yeah and that's the thing I'm you led me perfectly to my next point because also
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multiple officers with Vancouver Police already thought she was making everything up so she said well if I go
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see a psychiatrist I'm probably only validating that belief yeah they're going to be like see it's exactly what
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you said get that eventually she did reach a compromise with her boss and she agreed to see Dr Alex Conley who who was
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one of the psychiatrists um associated with the clinic that she worked for oh yeah isn't that a conflict of interest
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you think it's a conflict of interest now you just sit back and wait like you can't have her see someone who works at
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the clinic she works for yeah you sure can't she's got to go to an outside place you would think that's Bonkers it
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only gets Bonkers there oh Lord Dr Conley saw Cindy a total of six times before clearing her to return to work
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which six times I think is pretty valid um uh but years later his consultation would be seen by pretty much everybody
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as sus yeah me just straight up sus Like Pat McBride Alex Conley seemed pretty taken with Cindy oh and he didn't have
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any reservations when it came to believing even the most suspicious aspects of her story oh my goodness
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these mens he's she he just thinks she's really pretty which if you look up a picture of her she is beautiful but also
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you got you're a professional you're supposed to be unbiased here exactly now now the other thing was he only saw
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Cindy outside of his normal working hours what he hardly ever build for his services oh and this is my favorite part
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he kept literally virtually zero written record or notes of their meetings nothing no record of their sessions huh
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no I don't know how many of y'all are in therapy but they do be scratching down some notes while you're talking I would
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imagine not Alice Conley garly yeah this was highly unusual given that the entire
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reason she was seeing him in the first place was so that she could be evaluated for that worker's called claim which is
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like you need some you need records you need receipts baby so all signs pretty much pointed to an inappropriate level
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of familiarity between doctor and patient now that was that the threatening notes continue to arrive for
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Cindy at home and at work throughout the fall and into the summer but by the Fall
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things took another alarming turn and I'm just going to give a trigger warning here like up front for the rest of the
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story just cuz otherwise I'd have to be like paing every five seconds give like a blanket one so right here blanket for
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the rest of this story there is mention of animal cruelty and there is a lot of mention especially toward the end of
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like suicide and suicidal ideations so if that's something that you're not down to hear
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we'll exactly so on October 15th one year to the date after the harass M began Cindy found a dead cat in her
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garden with a rope tied around its neck oh a note next to the cat read your next
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that's terrifying uh-huh by that point she also had already moved two times and had changed her phone number but her
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stalker seemed to have no trouble finding her each time which is shocking especially back
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then it would take a lot to keep finding someone we'll find out later how if if there was a stalker and I'm not saying
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there wasn't I'm just saying like I'm very much in the middle on this case I don't know if she was mentally ill I
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don't know if there was a stalker I don't know but we'll find out that if there was a stalker it might not have
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been that difficult for them to get information she was a little free with information oh she was giving stuff out
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yeah exactly but a few weeks after the discovery of the cat she returned home to find her garden completely destroyed
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plants were ripped from the ground tossed around the yard like it was a wreck oh that's just cruel yeah it is
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mean mean and the increased frequency and aggression LED McBride to encourage Cindy to actually hire a professional
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bodyguard probably a good idea yeah not a bad idea at all so she took the advice
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and started working with Aussie cin he was a private detective and he was actually a friend of detective Bower
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Smith's who had extensive experience providing Security Services to just private clients now hiring cin obviously
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made her feel a little bit safer in her home home but it really didn't do anything to stop the harassment that's
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wild it is and remember obviously he's not like 247 you know he's probably on call right but yes he is on call so in
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late November just a few weeks after hiring this new security guard Cindy found another dead cat in her yard my
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God who is killing cats I can't even talk about it it ruins me in the weeks that followed the calls in letters
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started increasing in frequency and somebody started vandalizing the house smashing basement Windows cutting her
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phone line like serious [ __ ] scary [ __ ] [ __ ] each time she reported the harsman and each time a detective was
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sent out to the house to investigate but neither Vancouver PD or Aussie cin ever
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found any evidence that anyone other than Cindy had been at the house oh just none whatsoever wow which is weird yeah
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like if there is somebody they're really [ __ ] good at covering their tracks so
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a few months later January 30th 1984 Cindy was actually attacked in her home for a second time around 6: p.m. she
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called cin to tell him that she'd been hearing things outside of the house and she actually thought somebody was trying
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to break in oh that's terrifying so he rushed over to the house and when he looked through the front window he saw
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her lying on the kitchen floor and it appeared that there was a knife sticking out of her head her head her head h e a
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d head holy [ __ ] yeah so he kicked in the door with such force that it actually ripped the entire frame away
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from the from the wall oh see he like that's a man's that you want by your side get a whole door frame out
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hopefully he knows how to replace it but so he rushed into the kitchen where Cindy is just laying on the floor like
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unconscious my God and he expected to find the attacker probably still in the house because he rushed over there yeah
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he's on call but there was nobody inside the house other than Cindy and the house
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was completely silent completely still just nobody but she stabbed in the head well it turned out that Cindy had
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actually not been stabbed in the head she was stabbed in the hand the angle with which she was looking like made it
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look like like her hand was up or something yeah exactly but according this is still rudal according to the
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police report there was a pairing knife stuck into her hand almost to the Palm so I'm assuming it went like the knife
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went through the front of her hand holy [ __ ] and it was pinning a note like like
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the knife was stuck to a note then stuck into her hand and the note said now you
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must die [ __ ] yeah yeah and it was written in cut and paste magazine letters like the
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classic like a like a ransom note yeah when the paramedics arrived it was determined that actually her injury was
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not very serious which I'm like they must have gone like there's so many [ __ ] tendons in your hand yeah but
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also she's in healthcare and I just want to point that out yeah just saying but it wasn't very serious and the head
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injury that she suffered from from a supposed Blow To The Head was also not serious and the nylon stocking that was
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tighter around her neck also did no lasting damage but this is the second time that there's a rope tied around her
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neck like a nylon stocking and remember unfortunately like the cat there was a there was a rope around the cat too so
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that's a that keeps happening okay but later at the hospital doctors would find a needle mark on her
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arm which led them to believe that she had been injected with an unknown substance they couldn't determine what
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it was but she had no recollection of being injected well here's my my question yeah there's a note that says
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now you must die [ __ ] MH why didn't they kill her cuz it sounds like they didn't really make a
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effort to because the head injury is not they didn't even not serious they didn't even know if there really was a
00:20:22
head injury she said that she'd been struck over the head and that she passed out so they're like okay she must have
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been hit but there it was almost like um it was a case we talked about a few weeks ago where somebody said they've
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been hit over the head and like they were only unconscious for a certain amount of time and the doctors were like
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you would have been unconscious for much longer and that's and it's like it sounds like there was really no damn
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like it wasn't even a serious injury to the hand but like they had op if they were in her house and she's alone and
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they had a knife and a stalking with them yeah why didn't they just do it I mean I guess you could say that like
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like maybe they heard and I'm just playing devil's advocate here maybe they heard cin coming and ran out the back
00:21:05
but it exactly it sounds like he didn't see anybody leave everything was silent everything was quiet I mean I don't I
00:21:12
don't know it's it's hard to explain it's just like and I'm not saying this isn't somebody doing this like trying to
00:21:19
torment her but it's just like wow you're really like you you had and you had the chance to do it right do it and
00:21:27
this person is like playing with fire she's reporting this to the police over and over over rolling the dice here and
00:21:34
if if they're stalking her they they know that they're seeing police presents at the house you know like I I mean this
00:21:42
this is shocking yeah it is now like the other reports of assault and harassment
00:21:47
the scene at Cindy's house appeared to be absent of any evidence of an intruder whatsoever see that's the part that I'm
00:21:53
like what is going on here yeah on the kitchen floor where she'd been laying there were circular smears of blood that
00:21:59
investigators found highly unusual like somebody tried to clean the floor Constable Kio eoma I hope I say that
00:22:06
right said it appeared somebody had wiped it and he said in his 10 years as an investigator he had quote never come
00:22:12
across a crime scene where an aelan attempted to clean up the blood I mean I've seen that in plenty of cases where
00:22:17
somebody tried to clean up the blood thank you cuz I we've covered cases where that's happened before maybe not
00:22:22
in his 10 years but in our six years doing this I've seen countless cases where people have tried to to blood at a
00:22:30
crime scene but I will say usually that's when the person that they have attacked is dead or when they think that
00:22:36
they're dead yes exactly you know at least and it to me it doesn't seem like there was anything done to Cindy here
00:22:42
that where they would think she would made them think she was dead agreed yeah but again I who knows but that I'm like
00:22:48
no people clean up blood all the time or and do it badly mhm that's literally why
00:22:53
luminol testing exactly but according to Cindy she had been in her kitchen when she uh when she saw who she thought was
00:22:59
her neighbor come through the back gate and up her back stairs carrying something in his hand but by the time
00:23:04
she realized it wasn't her neighbor the man hit her over the head she said she lost Consciousness which would be a
00:23:10
severe head injury you don't lose Consciousness from a head injury unless it's a serious one right exactly and I
00:23:16
mean they also said that she may have been injected with something so I don't know if that made her lose Consciousness
00:23:22
but they also couldn't determine what it was that she'd been injected with so it's kind of hard to say interesting but
00:23:30
given the suspicion with which her other reports had been met investigators asked
00:23:34
her actually to take another polygraph exam which if if she is going through this and she does have this stalker
00:23:42
who's attacking her again and again she polygraph tests yeah like that's sh the thing that's the part of this that
00:23:49
is just awful sad as if this is really what's happening holy [ __ ] but then you
00:23:55
can see on the other side of things why they want her to because they're like we're trying to help you here but
00:24:00
there's no [ __ ] evidence and there's a lot of evidence pointing to to you unfortun else doing this so it's like I
00:24:08
I you can't ignore that like you can't just be like okay yeah totally someone did it and we don't know who it is well
00:24:13
this one is weird because so she she consented to the polygraph test and at first her results showed that she was
00:24:19
telling the truth okay but then the PO I don't know if it's polygrapher polygrapher polygraph Giver I don't know
00:24:26
polygraph men I like polygrapher but polygrapher sounds fun cuz it's like calligrapher
00:24:32
exactly you yeah well this this polygrapher Sergeant Cal Hood he reviewed the results a second time
00:24:39
several months later for some reason and he quote decided they were inconclusive maybe they were looking at
00:24:45
it later as the case progressed probably but but it's like you can't you can't retroactively decide she was lying right
00:24:53
and and that's what Mak tell that at the moment my friend yeah and that's what makes people not believe in poly I feel
00:24:58
like because like you can just form them to fit your narrative yeah like that's that's literally you just fitting The
00:25:06
Narrative that that might have started spinning later cuz it was like no no no she's good she passed this one and then
00:25:12
I don't know if it was after she passed away that they were like she actually didn't pass that one she was probably
00:25:16
lying I'm like I don't know about that I don't know yeah but in addition to the polygraph exam Hood interviewed Cindy
00:25:22
for about 45 minutes and during that interview she told him that there had been quote periods of violence during
00:25:27
her marriage to Roy make piece and that her ex-husband quote This is Wild often talked about killing people with a
00:25:34
crossbow oh which I was like I thought you weren't afraid of Roy what like you cuz she was she told people all the time
00:25:42
that like like investigators were like could this possibly be your ex-husband saying and also the the stocking and
00:25:49
everything started within a week of her leaving him yeah which is strange so that is strange and I don't think he did
00:25:56
anything I'll say that right at the top but you're saying you don't think it's him
00:26:00
and then you're telling them also that like there's periods of violence and that he talked about killing people with
00:26:05
a crossbow yeah it's like come on that's and then we get even further later which
00:26:09
you're just your jaw is going to be on the floor but damn it's like hello but again so she she tells the detective
00:26:17
this but or the the polygrapher but then she continues to insist that Roy couldn't be the attacker so it's like
00:26:22
okay then why are you even saying this the math ain't math no but the attack in the kitchen was followed by several more
00:26:28
reported incidents of harassment and violence of course in July 1984 Cindy claimed that while she was out walking
00:26:34
her dog she was quote abducted and injected with drugs by two people in a van asking for
00:26:40
directions what after the report Aussie Cen arranged for a hypnosis session and during that session and this is where
00:26:48
your jaw is just going to hit the [ __ ] floor Cindy claimed she quote saw her ex-husband chopping up the
00:26:54
bodies of a man and woman with an axe at a log cabin somewhere in in the Gulf Islands while they were on vacation
00:27:01
other than that she couldn't provide any details um what yeah chopping up the bodies of a
00:27:10
man and a woman within a log cabin in the Gulf Islands while whilst on vacation my my this is escalating which
00:27:19
it's like what what where the [ __ ] did that come from nobody knows there's no there's no evidence that this ever
00:27:28
happened but it is a story that she that under hypnosis came out yeah so it's like she believes it how did your brain
00:27:35
come out with that I mean it seems like she believes it I mean also I think there are ways that you can seem like
00:27:42
you're under hypnosis that's the thing that I was wondering but holy [ __ ] and that that comes up again later and
00:27:49
you're just like what it doesn't come up in a in a way where you can really ver but terrifying Tale to spin yeah and
00:27:59
also like Abduction where did you go they just abducted you and then that was it
00:28:11
yeah she was able to get away I guess I don't know maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think people are just injecting
00:28:18
people with drugs willy-nilly I don't think well maybe like if they're being held captive like I I think we've seen
00:28:26
that happen guess but I mean like just like in an attack scenario yeah and then just leaving them like i' like I don't I
00:28:32
feel like that's a rare occurrence is someone like it it's like because it reminds me of like Dexter where people
00:28:39
use it as like a submission thing yeah like in the middle of an attack that is rare I think if we looked really hard
00:28:47
into the research of that I'm sure and this has already happened possibly three different times for her maybe even more
00:28:54
but in three different occasions mhm like that's and also it's like okay so what H and it's like unknown substances
00:29:01
too and I mean we're we're getting to the point where like things are more advanced in this time period like they
00:29:07
would have been able to identify what substances most things I would think this is bananas well it only gets more
00:29:14
bananas wow I don't know why I said bananas like that but it gets more bananas there bananas there that was a
00:29:22
good one so a year later in July 1985 Cindy made more claims of abuse and violence against Roy and this time
00:29:29
investigators actually convinced her to agree to a wire tap in order to try to get him to confess to something cuz
00:29:35
they're like is he a murderer like yeah at this point you'd be like what the [ __ ] is going on here but rather than
00:29:42
capture any kind of confession the recorded conversation actually depicted Roy makepiece as a very concerned and at
00:29:49
the same time very frustrated partner or ex partner h on the tape he can be heard
00:29:54
saying I'm certainly prepared to listen to anything because I'm very very very curious about what the hell has been
00:30:00
going on but it's affected me badly and it damn near cost me my job yeah I can imagine so I think he's saying like yeah
00:30:07
I I want to hear what's going on because I care about you but also what the [ __ ]
00:30:11
is going on cuz you're putting me in precarious situations here you're making me seem like I chop up bodies now yeah
00:30:17
seriously now eventually Cindy tried to elicit some kind of incriminating information she told him she quote
00:30:23
couldn't understand what he had been doing to her and his response was just straight up bewildering
00:30:28
he said incredulously what I've been doing to you for the last couple years like being like what yeah like what and
00:30:34
then he laid out all the ways where Cindy's ongoing harassment claims negatively affected his life and he's
00:30:39
like I'm not doing anything to you what the [ __ ] are you doing to me which it's
00:30:43
like why would he be lying obviously we've seen like deception like this before but it's harder to understand how
00:30:50
someone would lie in a private setting to the person they are lying about and to feain that much
00:30:56
like bewilderment exactly so ultimately the call produced zero confession or really any indication of Roy make
00:31:03
piece's involvement just one month later Cindy called police to report that somebody had actually broken into her
00:31:09
basement this time and set her bathroom on fire what the [ __ ] however when detective Gary Foster searched outside
00:31:18
of the house he determined that quote James was responsible because the cobwebs and dust were undisturbed on the
00:31:24
window sills outside oh [ __ ] so nobody had gotten into the basement oh damn in
00:31:30
April 1986 she again reported that somebody broke into the basement and set yet another fire but as in all the other
00:31:36
reports investigators found no evidence of a Breakin and concluded that she had to have set the fire herself why is she
00:31:44
doing this now you could say that this I mean this one these two incidents with the fire I believe that she may have
00:31:53
done these the evidence points to that I'm not saying that means that none of the other things happened like in the
00:31:58
beginning yeah I maybe they did maybe they didn't the this these two sets of things I think she did and I don't know
00:32:06
if it was maybe because thing she felt like things were ramping down and she for some reason wanted to ramp them back
00:32:14
up again or or maybe just capture the attention of the investigators to like to make something happen like in the
00:32:21
case like to to make them feel like it was more urgent yeah maybe maybe or maybe maybe this whole thing was
00:32:29
something she thought was happening I maybe she was disassociating the other thing like this is tragic no matter what
00:32:35
way it goes and it's so sad go story cuz it's like if this is in her head and this is something she's doing then she
00:32:43
is very mentally ill and very sick and this is that's and she's still living yeah in a place where she they her fear
00:32:53
seemed real and her you know Panic seemed real so it's like she's living in a horrible Panic induced state of her
00:33:02
own making without her even realizing it right or she's being tormented by a person or Unknown People and no one's
00:33:11
believing her right either way it's a [ __ ] nightmare this is awful no matter what or it's a combination of
00:33:17
both which is somehow even worse yeah honestly there's no better outcome here this is all awful and she's I don't this
00:33:26
is no kind of Life to Live it's really not it's really not well and honestly it seems like the police agreed that like
00:33:33
this was awful and they they felt bad for her according to the Press quote police wanted to charge James but didn't
00:33:39
because they felt she was suicidal and that feeling was correct a few days later Cindy was actually
00:33:45
admitted to the psychiatric ward of St Paul's Hospital where she was evaluated and eventually transferred to Riverview
00:33:51
Hospital which was another um like mental hospital for inpatient treatment and that was after her brother Doug
00:33:58
signed a petition to have her committed so even family was starting to wonder like is something going on here and they
00:34:05
they felt she needed help either way she does so throughout her hospitalization the doctors at Riverview consulted
00:34:11
regularly with Cindy's therapist quote unquote Dr Alex Conley that guy who said that he had been treating her since the
00:34:18
first attack in her home and he believed that she was quote and this kind of comes out of nowhere anorexic and
00:34:23
suicidal oh which I was like okay helpful yeah but he attributed Cindy's anxiety and depression to investigator
00:34:30
failure to catch her stalker but as author an Mulgrew points out he did not tell them that police were of the firm
00:34:37
opinion she was staging these events which what the [ __ ] are you doing not giving them the full picture and they
00:34:42
need like even if you disagree with it you can say like I don't personally agree but the police don't think this is
00:34:49
actually happening yeah you have to give the full picture that's going to inform
00:34:53
how they approach the yeah and how they treat her like that's pertinent information so while she was at
00:34:58
Riverview she was assessed by the hospital staff at various points including her initial assessment which
00:35:04
was performed by Dr Wesley freezen among among other things he described her as quote histrionic suicidal and requiring
00:35:12
close observation because of her impulsive behavior wow now so and this is like from the like from research yeah
00:35:20
somebody who's diagnosed as histrionic does sometimes like repeat behaviors for attention so this he was of the mind
00:35:29
like in this moment it seems that he was in of the mind that this may have been her doing these things yeah at the time
00:35:35
of her admission she was diagnosed with a paranoid disorder and major effective disorder with psychotic symptoms that
00:35:42
caused her to become quote increasingly hypervigilant and knows herself that she
00:35:46
has misinterpreted events because of this agitated State see that that makes sense to me yeah now regardless of
00:35:53
Conley's bias reporting Dr freezen quickly became suspicious of Cindy's frequent reports of harassment and
00:35:59
attacks but he also acknowledged at the same time that it was difficult to get an accurate history from Cindy because
00:36:06
of her agitation and her resistance to being treated yeah it's a total double-edged sword on every front it is
00:36:14
so before she was discharged from Riverside she would be evaluated again this time by Dr Sun Mo who described her
00:36:21
as quote negativistic and conforming with unpredictable moods pessimism sullenness vasil with social agreement
00:36:28
and friendliness wow in other words basically Cindy responded to a given individual depending on whether she saw
00:36:36
them to be a friend or an adversary who kind of didn't believe her mhm now uh Dr
00:36:43
Choy was more direct than Dr FZ noting that Cindy appeared to be caught in a psychological cycle of engaging in this
00:36:49
extreme behavior in order to escape feelings of being upset and feelings of instability but these events never
00:36:57
provided any lasting relief and that's why they continued she ramps them up it was a cycle it's like when you have when
00:37:03
you take medication too much and you need more and more to get the the feeling that you need to like yeah it's
00:37:10
it is like an addiction exactly Dr chro it is a picture of a paranoid schizophrenic patient with high levels
00:37:16
of anxiety and depression the psychotic features are evident that's really sad it is sad now although the harassing
00:37:23
phone calls and letters did continue in the in the years that followed her hospitalization at Rivers side there was
00:37:28
only one more report of an assault and that was in October of 1988 and during this assault she was or after it
00:37:35
happened she was found unconscious outside of her home according to her report she claimed
00:37:41
that she'd been assaulted strangled injected yet again with a drug but once again there was no physical evidence of
00:37:48
this attack yeah this is It's just sad really sad now the next notable incident occurred on April 8th 1989 when a
00:37:56
security at Richmond General Hospital where Cindy was working he discovered a note consisting of again those cut and
00:38:03
paste magazine letters so spooky I [ __ ] hate it and he found this letter and it said soon Cindy in those cut and
00:38:10
paste letters [ __ ] now when she left work that afternoon she reported to the same security guard that somebody had
00:38:17
written sleep well on the Dew in her windshield which is just chilling yeah she appeared obviously disturbed by the
00:38:25
discoveries but she didn't reply with the same level of alarm that she demonstrated in the past I think which
00:38:30
she could just be at this point like used to it she's been living it she's like oh great another one yeah on May
00:38:36
25th 1989 she went for some kind of cosmetic makeover in Vancouver and then she went to Richmond General to pick up
00:38:43
her paycheck friends and co-workers who saw her that day recalled her being upbeat and happier than she'd been in
00:38:49
years mhm that was the last anybody saw of Cindy the LA the very last time anybody saw her that day was when she
00:38:57
she deposited her paycheck at the bank after that she got into her car drove off and disappeared wow so on the
00:39:05
evening of May 25th 1989 she actually had plans with her neighbors to play bridge uh her neighbors were Tom and
00:39:12
Agnes Woodcock and around 10: p.m. they still hadn't heard from her so they knocked on our door but nobody answered
00:39:18
this was strange because they saw her earlier that day and also because her car was in the driveway they finally
00:39:24
became really alarmed when they peered into her car and they saw several bags of groceries on the passenger side um
00:39:31
seat and on the floor and on the floor in the back there was a Sears bag from her shopping trip that afternoon and
00:39:39
they became even more concerned when they looked down at the driver's side door and saw a quote unquote rustored
00:39:45
smear on the handle that they thought looked a lot like dried blood oh boy so this is [ __ ] yeah spooky not good now
00:39:54
after discovering the groceries in the car they drove to the nearest Department of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who
00:39:59
I'm going to call the RCMP from this point forward cuz damn that's a [ __ ] mouth yeah it is but they reported to
00:40:05
the RCMP what they found being pretty familiar with Cindy's uh frequent reports the RCMP dispatched officers to
00:40:12
her house and within a half hour the entire scene had been cordoned off with police tape and crime scene technicians
00:40:18
immediately got to work processing this entire scene they took swabs of the rust
00:40:23
colored substance on the door which did ultimately turn out to be blood and underneath the car they discovered an
00:40:28
ATM receipt showing that a deposit had been made into Cindy's bank account in the amount of
00:40:34
$1,173 and that was at 7:58 p.m. inside the car they found those four bags of groceries from the local Safeway they
00:40:43
found Cindy's purse which was just sitting on the front seat and inside her purse they found two sets of keys to the
00:40:49
house and to the car so the car keys were literally right there huh they found $277 in cash and her checkbook
00:40:56
with every single check accounted for Wow once the car was completely processed it was towed to the police
00:41:02
impound yard but it just looked like she pulled up to go inside disappeared just
00:41:08
like completely vanished now given that her purse and her keys were completely UND Disturbed investigators were pretty
00:41:14
much able to rule out robbery as the motive they also contacted all the local cab companies to see if maybe she had
00:41:21
like hopped in a cab and gone somewhere just didn't take anything with her but none had been called
00:41:28
so that was strange so they were like okay if she did leave she had to have left with a friend or a possible
00:41:35
abductor maybe we're wrong here maybe the only choice this is really ramped up now now believing they were searching
00:41:40
for a missing person the RCMP contacted the Canadian Coast Guard to conduct a search of the river while they handled
00:41:47
the ground search inside our house nothing looked unusual nothing seemed out of place it literally just looked
00:41:54
like she pulled into to the driveway and like we just said disappeared into the thing th her yeah the next day she still
00:41:59
hadn't been found so the RCMP officer started making the notifications to friends and family and really started
00:42:06
their formal investigation and of course they started with the most likely suspect her ex Roy
00:42:12
makepiece yes throughout the years of this repeated harassment and assault claims made by Cindy his name was the
00:42:19
only constant Factor they didn't have any other suspect whatsoever and he wasn't even really a suspect yeah even
00:42:25
if he wasn't always accused of anything specific they still wanted to talk to him and by that point he was so used he
00:42:31
was like accustomed to being interviewed so he was pretty unbothered by the intrusion he said since his divorce from
00:42:37
Cindy he had become increasingly drawn into her life of just constant drama but he maintained he wasn't responsible for
00:42:44
any of it and in the cases where he was present he was only there to make sure she was safe like when uh Pat McBride
00:42:50
found him in the car with like a gun it was just to scare off an attacker if he saw one which again like and I don't
00:42:57
believe he had anything to do with this after see like hearing everything but but it's sus but you can understand them
00:43:03
checking in on it because you're like well that is what an attacker would say yeah exactly that I was just there with
00:43:08
guns cuz I wanted to protect her and this is literally the only place they have to go right now so you might as
00:43:13
well start there yeah but he explained also to officers that he actually hadn't spoken to Cindy since that wired tapped
00:43:20
phone call nearly four years earlier oh damn yeah um and more importantly he was
00:43:26
also able to account for his whereabouts for the entire previous day it would have been impossible for him to abduct
00:43:32
Cindy now during their interviews with Roy investigators noted he didn't seem suspicious at all and they genuinely
00:43:38
believed that he didn't have anything to do with this yeah in fact despite everything that he'd been through with
00:43:42
Cindy like all of the her saying that he chopped up bodies on vacation and talked
00:43:48
about killing people with crossbows exactly through all of that he still believed that somebody had been
00:43:54
harassing her and genuinely thought she was in real Danger wow he even told police that as recently as that fall he
00:44:01
had gotten strange messages on his own answering machine alluding to a previously arranged hit on Cindy and he
00:44:08
believed the mafia could have been involved okay that comes out of nowhere go that pan out it it doesn't go
00:44:15
anywhere I don't think yeah I don't know about that this isn't saying Mafia to me
00:44:20
and I'm also like it doesn't ever sound like she like borrowed a ton of money or
00:44:24
got caught up in that anywhere like a very I'm like why yeah he seemed like a real heady kind of guy yeah you know
00:44:33
yeah that's a good way of putting it yeah but ultimately he was ruled out as a suspect now within a few days the news
00:44:39
about Cindy's disappearance broke in all the local papers and journalists focused
00:44:43
on what they described as quote dozens of complaints of harassment and threats in fact at that point there was nearly
00:44:49
100 in total I believe it yeah in an interview with a reporter Cindy's father Otto said on the day of his daughter's
00:44:57
disappearance that quote Cindy called her friend and indicated some people may think I'm paranoid but I have a feeling
00:45:02
I being I have been being followed all week huh which is strange yeah he told reporters it was possible that Cindy
00:45:10
maybe lost her memory and just couldn't find her way home but he admitted it was
00:45:13
quote more likely she has been abducted and held against her will or possibly even dead he said we have to hope she's
00:45:20
still alive but I fear she will be in very poor shape when she is found it's strange that he was like maybe she lost
00:45:26
her memory and just couldn't find her way home it's like what is that a is that a normal occurrence yeah like that
00:45:32
wouldn't be my first thought that wouldn't be my you were missing I wouldn't be like well maybe she just
00:45:37
completely lost her memory and can't find her way home I thought that be a thought I don't know if it was just
00:45:43
because weird [ __ ] was happening all the time in Cindy's life well and also I'm
00:45:47
like do you have an idea that maybe there's some mental illness happening that you're not really opening up about
00:45:54
right but that's a pretty good indicator of it that's kind of what I thought yeah
00:45:58
and or maybe I mean she's claiming in the past that she's been injected with things maybe they had phone
00:46:03
conversations with her where she sounded loopy or she just was telling them like
00:46:08
I've been injected I've been hit over the head so they're like she's got drama I mean they knew about the ordal that
00:46:13
she was going through so there's that yeah it's strange but on June 8th just a few days after Otto gave his interview
00:46:20
his fears were completely realized when a municipal Works crew who was patching pavement dis discovered Cindy's body in
00:46:28
this yard of an abandoned house What a Sad ending to this it is she was found about a mile from where she'd last been
00:46:34
seen at the ATM according to a neighbor who lived across the street from the house an old man lived in a van behind
00:46:40
that house but otherwise it had been unoccupied for months the neighbor said God knows what else is in there kind of
00:46:46
indicating that it was like a popular spot with like kids and vagrants that kind of thing n Dells n dwells partying
00:46:53
kids you know yeah now her was discovered in the bushes along the edge of the property she was fully clothed
00:47:01
with her hands and feet tied behind her back with a black nylon stocking like tied keep using the stocking yes
00:47:08
stocking again there were signs of advanced deom indicating that she'd been in the location for at least a few days
00:47:15
her blouse was torn in certain places but they said there was no other evidence of a struggle at the scene I
00:47:22
disagree her cloth they they also said her clothes didn't seem to have been Disturbed but I'm like her blouse is
00:47:27
torn so I would call that Disturbed personally but maybe they're thinking about maybe the way it looks is like it
00:47:33
doesn't really look like it was Disturbed it's just like ripped yeah yeah it's like a weird way of putting it
00:47:39
and um there was no foreign material on her body so that's a good thing but despite the lack of evidence of a
00:47:44
struggle the pathologist noted that one of her fingers had scratched another and
00:47:48
this is a quote down to the bone [ __ ] I'm like how is that even possible like like one of her fingers
00:47:58
had scratched the other one down to the bone huh which I'm like is it possible that she scratched like a lot and then
00:48:07
because of deom it yeah maybe it just sped up the deom scratching to get out of the the
00:48:14
bindings but I don't know because we'll get there but it led her to theorize that Cindy had been alive when she was
00:48:19
left in the yard otherwise there was no signs of violence and at that point no obvious cause of death what the [ __ ] the
00:48:26
autops was performed later that day by Dr Sheila Carlile at the Royal Colombian hospital and the first thing Dr car uh
00:48:33
Dr Carlile noticed was when she removed The Binding she said quote the ligature around one wrist was loose enough to be
00:48:40
easily slipped off over the hand oh shut up and none of the binds on the wrists and ankles were tight enough to indent
00:48:46
the skin what yeah that's very loose cuz immediately I was thinking was she like
00:48:53
what you said was she scratching to get the bindings loose but the were loose and they had to have been loose for
00:48:59
quite some time because there was no indentation anywhere that's bizarre right bizarre in
00:49:08
fact there was no bruising or injury on any part of her skin except for a small pin prick on the inner right arm just
00:49:15
below the elbow and that was determined to be consistent with an injection from a hypodermic needle what the [ __ ] based
00:49:23
on the insect activity the pathologist believed that Cindy's body had been in the lot since probably at least June 2nd
00:49:29
but it was possible she'd been there ever since she disappeared so earlier than June but initially the cause of
00:49:36
death uh was listed as asphixiation but when the toxicology report came back Dr Carlile changed the cause of death to an
00:49:44
overdose of morphine flopam and diazapam oh based on the examination of the stomach contents Dr Carlile
00:49:52
concluded Cindy had ingested the F aapam and the Dasa P which are both sedatives
00:49:58
in pill form she was able to to determine that but Cindy didn't have a prescription for either of those things
00:50:05
so that was strange that is weird and then the morphine was also believed to have been ingested orally in liquid form
00:50:11
and although it was impossible to know for sure Dr Carlile did theorize that the most likely cause of death was the
00:50:17
flopam in Cindy system and she suspected that Cindy had ingested anywhere from 20
00:50:23
to 80 tablets of that holy [ __ ] [ __ ] under those circumstances she would have
00:50:29
had about 30 minutes before losing Consciousness and that would have been quickly followed by coma and then death
00:50:36
so it's unclear just how it happened but within a day of the body being identified as Cindy James the Press
00:50:41
started Port reporting that RCMP officers were investigating the death as a quote unquote elaborate suicide whoa
00:50:49
which given how she had been found was very hard to swallow for the public because of course nobody believed that
00:50:56
that she could have possibly hog tied herself but when you with the bindings being so loose
00:51:03
yeah and I mean the medical examiner said she could slip a hand out mhm and they were so loose that they didn't
00:51:08
leave indentations she's also a healthcare worker and those were sedatives uhhuh which I'm it's an awful
00:51:16
thing to think about that like she took an enormous amount of sedatives to basically pass out fall asleep and then
00:51:25
die there overdose where she couldn't move basically it's hard to believe it is it
00:51:34
really is even when you lay it out logically and say like sure absolutely it could have been
00:51:38
because the the evidence leads you up to it right it's hard to believe it really
00:51:46
is I mean well there's no other case that I've heard of quite like this because then you think of the other side
00:51:52
of it where you're like if someone forced medication down her throat yeah to like make her pass out an overdose
00:51:59
and left her bound and made it did it loose on purpose cuz they knew she was going to die anyway and she but it's
00:52:05
like where did that finger thing come in where she was like scratching her finger
00:52:09
down to a bone like that part is that's the part that's hard to I don't know I just I can't make heads or tails of any
00:52:17
of I can't either I can't either but either way the reports of the suicide Theory seemed completely Preposterous to
00:52:24
anybody who knew anything about Cindy's ordeal over the previous decade and even
00:52:28
the work crew who found her flatly rejected that idea one of the workers told her reporter this definitely wasn't
00:52:34
a suicide You couldn't possibly put yourself in that position which I can see why he would think that I mean I
00:52:41
can't imagine finding somebody like that and then somebody being like Oh yeah they did that to themselves I'd be like
00:52:45
no they didn't no way but when you think about the loose bindings she very much could off now in the absence of an
00:52:52
official story from the RCMP the Press took complete control of the Nar native and they shifted their attention to what
00:52:59
they perceived as a complete failure on the part of law enforcement to protect Cindy despite the years and years of
00:53:04
complaints that she was filing one friend told a reporter the cops just never believed her and in an oped for
00:53:11
the province Vancouver reporter Patricia Graham wrote I feel disgust and anger sadness and regret that we let Cindy
00:53:17
down so badly Cindy James tried everything possible to protect herself she went to Vancouver and Richmond R
00:53:23
RCMP repeatedly she did her best but she still in Terror for 8 years worse she had to live through her personal hell
00:53:29
knowing that she was doubted that she was suspected of inflicting this on herself that her Terror was not
00:53:34
recognized or validated I mean yeah that's you can't you bounce back and forth between how [ __ ] terrible both
00:53:43
sides of this coin are no matter what the outcome is or what the process and journey of this whole thing was yeah
00:53:48
it's [ __ ] awful it is it does no matter what she was living in a state of Terror of either her own minds making or
00:53:54
reality and no matter matter what she was being doubted the entire time it's like we said it's just no way to live no
00:54:01
way to live horrible but while the Press continued their outpouring of sympathy for Cindy and cons the considerable
00:54:06
criticism of the RCMP investigators were learning a little bit more about Cindy's
00:54:11
life and the weeks leading up to her death the medical examiner report strongly indicated that she could have
00:54:16
staged the entire scene herself loose bindings those drugs could have been voluntarily ingested and the pin prick
00:54:23
on her arm was believed to have been the result of Cindy actually withdrawing blood from herself to wipe it on the
00:54:30
driver's side door whoa which is wild to think of anybody doing but it is possible especially when they're saying
00:54:37
that the drugs in her system were ingested not injected especially orally that's the thing exactly moreover in
00:54:43
their interview with Dr FZ they learned that Cindy had spoken frequently of suicide in recent sessions and she had
00:54:49
been hoarding quote unquote huge amounts of medication that he had been prescribing her in the months before her
00:54:55
death oh jeez yes and 2 months before her death she had actually stopped taking her medication and this is so sad
00:55:01
according to freezen she stopped taking it because the mortgage rate was going to go up and she couldn't afford the
00:55:06
prescription cost how [ __ ] up is that it's [ __ ] up that that's I mean this was like 20 something years ago or0
00:55:13
Stillen and it's still happening you choose to keep a roof over your head or to take the medication that you need you
00:55:18
have to choose right like that should not be any a choice that should just you should be able to have both yeah but the
00:55:24
hacks when they got to Cindy's house house actually flushed all the pills that they discovered there why I'm not
00:55:32
sure that's that's weird it's weird I don't know strange Behavior I I don't know I don't want to speculate I just
00:55:40
don't know yeah I mean people do strange things when they're grieving people do things to
00:55:46
make sure that somebody does not a certain SE in a certain way in certain perceived so like yes but no like you
00:55:55
can't do that like especially when you think she was possibly being like I don't know you just don't get rid of
00:56:01
anything I know but I don't know again people do do odd things when they're grieving that's the thing but the
00:56:08
medication was not the only discouraging discovery that they made when they searched her home while going through
00:56:13
Cindy's belongings a family member found a glass cutter a kit containing a syringe IV equipment a urinary catheter
00:56:22
uh and saline solution and then in one of her sewing k they found an unopened needle and
00:56:29
syringe oh no yeah I mean that's concerning all of that it's strange I mean the glass cutter that's the thing I
00:56:38
was I was just going to sayr she works in healthcare so like I guess you could have some of these things I don't know
00:56:46
on your person like why I mean not on your person but I don't know why they're in your house but a glass
00:56:52
cutter what I mean what's more important is she has access to these things exactly but despite all the newly
00:56:59
discovered evidence actually and this was surprising to me Dr FZ still had a hard time believing that Cindy had
00:57:05
actually taken her own life he told investigators I saw her the week before she disappeared and she was the best
00:57:10
I've ever seen her the most positive the most optimistic I've ever seen her I mean that happens that's that's a that
00:57:17
happens a lot that it's like a it's horrible to think about and it's chilling to think about but there's like
00:57:23
sometimes this Moment of clarity and peace that comes before something really tragic like this he said that she had
00:57:31
renewed her interest and commitment to reporting the incidents of harassment that she was going through he said she
00:57:35
felt confident that everything was actually going to be resolved soon which that's chilling thinking that that
00:57:42
was a discussion that was had right before that and given her mood her mood and her future orientation he just
00:57:49
couldn't accept the theory that the r RCMP was putting forth he said Cindy would not kill herself unless it was
00:57:55
accidental you know if it was an accidental suicide I could understand that I don't know if you can't really
00:58:01
say that with definitive no you're not someone's head you can't say they absolutely would not have done that you
00:58:07
can say I'm I'm finding it hard to believe that yes she would have but I'm not in her brain I think he cared about
00:58:14
her on like a deep level and I'm not saying on an inappropriate level yeah you mean like just cared about her
00:58:19
wellbeing I think he really cared about her and it was a shock that this had happened and I mean he's her Doctor Who
00:58:26
treating her that that hurts that you know he didn't like he I'm sure he felt like he didn't see the signs like he
00:58:33
wanted to help and he felt like he didn't or that he would have seen the signs so there's no way he could have
00:58:37
missed it yeah but on July 12th uh after more than a month of Investigation the RCMP reported that they were officially
00:58:44
ruling out fou play and that Cindy's death was going to be labeled a suicide according to Dr Tony Marcus who actually
00:58:50
evaluated Cindy several times and consulted with the investigators Cindy James was a quote in this is a quote a
00:58:57
borderline personality who weaved a tremendous plot to be the center of attention that's a quote quote quote
00:59:02
quote I'm not saying that he said that from a doctor a quote yes he also allowed for the possibility that she was
00:59:08
telling the truth but he said based on his experiences with her he's a Doctor Who's treating her and the abject lack
00:59:14
of evidence he felt it was just highly unlikely that she was telling the truth although the RCMP ordered a Coroner's
00:59:21
inquest to determine the circumstances of Cindy's death the investigator's official conclusion was a disappointment
00:59:26
to the hack course it was utoh hack told the reporters the rcmp's explanation didn't satisfy me at all there's a
00:59:33
murderer out there somewhere and I can totally understand that too because I that's her father no one is and who's
00:59:39
even sure of this I'm not you know initially the inquest was scheduled for October 12th 1989 but of course it got
00:59:47
pushed back several times and it didn't begin until late February 1990 in his opening remarks coroner Gerald Tilly
00:59:53
told the jury that the inquest would cover the 90 reported incidents of harassment between 82 and ' 89 so this
01:00:00
is literally what's that 6 years 7 years this um and they said there would be special attention paid to the
01:00:06
circumstances obviously of Cindy's death in May of 1989 and this inquest was only scheduled
01:00:12
to last for 15 days keep that in mind the first witness to testify was Cindy's one-time boyfriend Pat McBride and he
01:00:19
told the jury that she quote hinted to him that her former husband may have been responsible for a series of strange
01:00:25
in uh incidents involving harassing phone calls letters various incidents of vandalism he said she led me to believe
01:00:33
that a certain person may be involved her husband Dr Roy makepiece he also explained that he had caught Roy
01:00:39
makepiece lurking in the area around her house on more than one occasion but he could also at the same time never
01:00:46
establish any evidence that Roy was responsible for this harassment and it's like and she's telling everyone else
01:00:51
that he couldn't be the person but she's telling Pat McBride it is him right like what's going on
01:00:58
yeah now Pat McBride's testimony established the onset of the incident and who Cindy suspected may have been to
01:01:05
blame but it also highlighted the extent that law enforcement questioned these claims yeah pretty much from the
01:01:11
beginning he was one of several witnesses who acknowledged that Cindy seemed thoroughly resistant to taking
01:01:17
any steps to protect or remove herself from the situation especially after like I said she started giving her unlisted
01:01:24
phone number out to multiple people within weeks of having it changed McBride said the advice was coming from
01:01:30
someone with a vested interest in making sure she was Secure I didn't like the idea she was turning my ideas to not so
01:01:36
he's saying like I was telling her don't do that don't be giving out this information you don't know who this
01:01:41
person is and she still was his partner Andy Richards also testified telling the
01:01:46
jury that he believed Cindy had used a set of Pat McBride's wire cutters to cut the phone line while he was living in
01:01:53
the house holy [ __ ] yeah so again she had access to things that could have done that partner like another cop yeah
01:02:01
now although the RCMP and other agencies were obviously prohibited from speaking
01:02:05
publicly while this inquest was going on it didn't take a formal statement to figure out that there were several very
01:02:11
valid reasons for believing that Cindy could have been responsible for staging all of this a lot of the investigators
01:02:18
who testified noted that there was an almost near absolute lack of evidence to support these claims and despite the
01:02:25
count L hours of formal and informal surveillance I can never say surveillance I always say
01:02:32
surveillance but none of the investigators ever saw anybody suspicious on or near her property
01:02:38
that's that's wild and like in part one I said years of constant surveillance and years this person's just a ghost of
01:02:46
these people and like if you remember in part one I said um that I think it was like neighbors had seen strange unknown
01:02:54
men yeah like un unidentified men in the neighborhood how many times have you seen somebody you don't recognize in
01:03:00
your neighborhood and been like who the [ __ ] is that but it's just like a guy but it's just like some dude walking his
01:03:06
so it's like it absolutely could be something or it could be nothing could be nothing
01:03:09
exactly but there was also the matter of the failed polygraph oh my God I can't say polygraph and I can't say
01:03:17
surveillance see couldn't be I always say yance I don't know what that's about but there was the matter of the failed
01:03:24
polygraph examinations when Here We Go Again polygrapher polygrapher Vic farmer testified he told the jury that the
01:03:32
results indicated that she was Cindy was lying or lying in part about the attack
01:03:36
in January 1983 and he said when she was confronted with these results she responded by grabbing his arm and saying
01:03:43
Vic I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry and he said when she finally yeah he said when
01:03:49
she finally collected herself she changed various parts of her story but then refused to take a third polygraph
01:03:55
exam H Sergeant Cal Hood who administered a polygraph exam after the incident in
01:04:01
1984 reported a similar outcome where he suspected Cindy of being deceitful also included on the witness
01:04:08
list were a number of doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists who had treated Cindy over the years including
01:04:13
Dr Cho uh Dr CH excuse me Dr Marcus Dr Fen and Dr termon he was a psychiatrist from Riverview and in his testimony Dr
01:04:24
termon told the jury that Cindy was quote capable of intense attraction and intense rage at rejection and that could
01:04:31
have caused her to lash out and strange and irrational ways to try to Garner sympathy and attention while also
01:04:38
getting back at whoever she felt like had wronged her no matter how irrational that belief might be wow like she might
01:04:45
see it that somebody wronged her like and this is just an example like Roy wronged her I mean he did he hit her
01:04:52
yeah so she may have done something like this to get back at him and or Garner sympathy was this doctor's belief okay
01:05:01
now the RCMP and medical examiners case for suicide was a strong one but the authorities were hardly unanimous in
01:05:08
their opinion among those who were not in favor of the suicide theory was Dr Joseph noon a forensic psychiatrist who
01:05:15
was hired to review Cindy's medical record he heavily criticized several of the medical providers including Dr
01:05:21
Conley me too which I'm sure you can imagine why but he called them armchair psychiatrists and he said their meddling
01:05:28
in Cindy's treatment had potentially compromised the case to the point that they might never find the
01:05:33
truth I mean some of them were treating her though what's that some of them were
01:05:39
treating her like in Riverview yeah but it's like I don't know if they were meddling they were treating her I don't
01:05:46
think he was like he wasn't criticizing all of them he was criticizing some of them yeah small
01:05:53
because I was like Dr Connelly sure criticizing exactly but I'm like I don't know like the place when she was being
01:05:58
treated in a place it's like yeah they're just treating her and I'm and like Dr FZ and seemed like he was doing
01:06:04
a good job Dr Chay seemed a little more intense than Dr fzza but still seemed like still seemed like he was like in it
01:06:10
yeah exactly interesting but while noon clearly disagreed with several of Cindy's supporters it didn't mean he
01:06:15
agreed with authorities he said that her medical records actually read very clean
01:06:21
but he was in agreement with Dr Fen believing that Cindy was likely being harassed by an unknown party and that
01:06:27
resulted in depression anxiety and paranoia not the other way around interesting not that she was paranoid in
01:06:33
there for making this all in her head she was yeah but he believed actually this was happening and that's why she
01:06:39
was feeling this way okay among Cindy's most vocal Defenders was her private security guard aie cin who just really
01:06:46
seems like a sweetheart he's very out there but he seems like a sweetheart oh he's out there a little bit we'll see he
01:06:53
told the jury he just couldn't believe that she had stayed every incident of stalking and harassment not only because
01:06:58
she seemed super genuine but also because of what he believed was strong evidence that supported her claims uh
01:07:05
specifically with regard to the alleged uh 1984 kidnapping where she was abducted by those two people in the van
01:07:11
and like injected with something yeah he told the jury that he investigated the area where she said everything went down
01:07:17
where she got abducted and he found that quote the ground was dist Disturbed and
01:07:22
there were dragging marks okay which is interesting yeah you could make that yourself he's a
01:07:28
private security guard so I'm like it doesn't hold a lot of we exactly now after two weeks the inquiry shifted its
01:07:35
attention to Cindy's relationship of course with her ex-husband Roy makepiece like I think I said at the top of this
01:07:41
the harassment began within weeks of her separation from Roy and he'd been a regular feature in the reports from an
01:07:48
early phase of the investigation in name if not in presence while many witnesses
01:07:53
steered clear of accusing him of any wrongdoing there was a strong inference that he was involved in fact the jury
01:07:59
heard about that hypnosis session where she accused him exposive one yeah where she accused him of chopping up bodies
01:08:06
with an axe though the hypnotist acknowledged that it was possible she just believed the incident was real in
01:08:12
her mind which is also scary yeah absolutely what the [ __ ] but also that sucks for him if it was just like a
01:08:18
scenario that her mind created real or not though her sister actually added credibility to that story when she
01:08:26
testified that Cindy had also told her about this alleged murder in 1984 where Roy allegedly used a hatchet to quote
01:08:34
cut off a limb and spread blood on Cindy's face warning her I could easily do this to you too I'm sorry what
01:08:42
Melanie it should be noted that this was the first time any member of law enforcement had heard Melanie hack's
01:08:49
story about this and it was completely unverified yeah cuz where are where were you what is going on like you're
01:08:55
literally just bringing this up it was just something that Cindy may have reiterated to her and she
01:09:00
just you know said you know Now's the Time to share that Now's the Time to share that now after she's like she's
01:09:07
been going through all this harassment and stalking and like attacks and everything and it's
01:09:12
like you you got to tell the police yeah wow I mean I think the hypnotist told the police and they investigated it but
01:09:20
there was no evidence that this occurred but it's like what why aren't you saying
01:09:23
anything Melanie Wild o now surprisingly Roy never actually testified during the
01:09:28
inquest but his words did make it into the record in the form of that recorded phone call oh yeah the wire tap yeah um
01:09:35
he also had a nearly six-hour interview with BCE which was also recorded and that was after the attack in 1984 and in
01:09:43
his interview with Detective valer Smith he could be heard expressing his fears that he actually believed Cindy was
01:09:48
trying to frame him and he was disappointed that he was suspected of all of this he told the detective
01:09:54
firstly I could not believe I was a suspect let alone the only suspect everything I said was twisted now in the
01:10:00
end he actually received I mean like no sympathy from the investigators I mean on Fair counts because I mean they
01:10:07
thought he was strange first of all which it sounds like he was a strange character but also he had admitted to
01:10:12
spousal abuse yeah exactly so it's like I don't know you've lost it for me that's the thing but then at the same
01:10:17
time doesn't make you a murderer but it makes you a [ __ ] person yeah exactly but
01:10:21
at the same time they did see that he seemed unwaveringly committed to protecting Cindy at least especially in
01:10:27
the early years before they cut off contact but regardless of how they felt about him personally there was just no
01:10:33
evidence connecting him to the crimes and by the time Cindy recorded their phone call in 1985 it was clear that he
01:10:39
just wanted nothing to do with this anymore now like I said initially the coroner's request was scheduled for 15
01:10:46
days but by the time it concluded on May 25th 1990 it dragged on for more than 3
01:10:52
months and at this point became the most expensive inquest in Canadian's history
01:10:58
damn yeah in the course of hearing testimony from almost 75 Witnesses and reviewing countless documents the jurors
01:11:05
were told two versions of events one that strongly supported the belief that Cindy had taken her own life and another
01:11:11
where the evidence was a great deal more ambiguous and at least gestured toward the possibility that you know maybe she
01:11:18
was telling the truth about having a stalker and an attacker some of the testimony like I said Aussie cin is a
01:11:24
little out there um he believed that Cindy was murdered in a satanic ritualistic
01:11:30
sacrifice oh come on Azie he lost me there he lost me man yeah that testim wavering there that lost me yeah that
01:11:39
testimony was given very little Credence that's fair good other Witnesses including the various doctors who
01:11:44
testified that she may have taken her life obviously that was taken very seriously but in the end the jury could
01:11:50
not determine what had led to the end of Cindy James's life and the official circumstances of her death was uh
01:11:58
revised from suicide to undetermined wow yeah for the jury the inquest was particularly stressful juror Shirley
01:12:08
gahol said I not only cried myself to sleep but I cried in the courtroom too I can't imagine cuz they had to see tons
01:12:14
of graphic photographs I mean they saw the position that she was found in all these like crazy descriptions of
01:12:21
violence and they also spent months listening to conf fting opinions and testimony that at times became really
01:12:28
really heated oh yeah I'm sure and then you know this woman D died tragically either way so they felt this task to
01:12:36
figure out what happened but it was an emotional roller coaster she had such a sad life yeah another juror said there
01:12:42
were all shades of Grays no black and white in the end you felt you knew Cindy your heart just achd for the girl yeah
01:12:49
when it came time to deliberate they spent more than 3 hours just arguing with one another there was two uh in
01:12:55
favor of suicide and then there was three in favor of undetermined okay Jerry Foreman Len Rogers said it boils
01:13:02
down to nothing nothing firm pointed to Suicide so many things were just speculation that's the thing you can
01:13:07
just it's a double- seted coin here yeah I could I don't think I could have ever
01:13:12
made a decision and in the end they were right there was no evidence to prove that Cindy had taken her life and there
01:13:17
was no evidence that she had been murdered just like the 90 reports of harassment in her past the truth seemed
01:13:23
to just elude everybody fun but what we do know is that no matter what it's like
01:13:29
we've been saying this entire time this was a [ __ ] nightmare life whether it was mental illness or stalking she was a
01:13:36
victim yeah she was absolutely a victim of something whether it be mental illness or a deranged [ __ ] stalker
01:13:45
that it's just I mean it's possible like I'm not saying it's absolutely it's just
01:13:50
so hard to imagine like this level of yeah plan commitment and and ability to just never
01:14:01
be seen or detected in any physical way ever like there was never one shred of evidence left but I mean that happens
01:14:08
you know like I it's very few and far between but it happens yeah but I think it's still
01:14:14
an important story to tell because who knows she could have been murdered and if she was then this person completely
01:14:20
got away with it yeah cuz no matter she was a victim of something hopefully I just want somebody to like
01:14:26
find a box with all the documents and comb through them and just find one thing that points to the actual answer
01:14:33
can point to either way just give give them something because you feel bad it's just yeah it's an awful tragic tale no
01:14:39
matter what way it spins but it would be nice to have some answers I'm sure everybody who loved her goes back and
01:14:45
forth all the time in their own heads you know like what the [ __ ] happened here neither outcome is a good one so
01:14:50
it's like no how awful it is it's an awful case but a very very interesting one it is I've never like I said I think
01:14:57
I said it earlier I've never heard of a case quite like this no it's very very unique and very bizarre if you know let
01:15:04
us know because I found this fascinating tragic but fascinating yeah if you know
01:15:08
of another one like this it would it would be interesting to look into yeah definitely I also looked up the
01:15:13
pronunciation for polygrapher polygrapher polygrapher poer I mean that could just
01:15:21
be do just feel wrong it does feel wrong that just feels like when I'm reading and I accidentally read photographer
01:15:27
instead of photographer do you ever do that yep but then this person says polygrapher I guess you you probably say
01:15:36
both I like polygrapher I like polygrapher yeah it's fun yeah well um we hope you keep listening and we hope
01:15:43
you keep it weird but not so weird that we ever find the difference between polygrapher and polygrapher
01:15:51
never by [Music] [Music] [Music]