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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid O. >> It sure is. >> I I really love saying Morbid O.
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>> Morbid O. >> The way we just we're going to rebrand. >> Yeah, Morbidito. >> I like that.
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>> Yeah, just uh I don't know. It's just what I'm calling it now. >> You're like, you know what? I had
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something that left and >> weekend. We never record on the weekend and it feels strange.
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>> You know what that's from? The weekend. >> Wait, no, I do. Yeah, Urban Legend.
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>> Yeah, and cuz I know I've said I say that sometimes and I I have to wonder if
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like 85% of the audience is like, why do you say it like that? >> Watch Urban Legend if you haven't cuz
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that's a key movie. >> It's the best. >> dean when he gets got before he gets got, he says spoiler alert, he says
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>> The dean dies. >> He says something like, well, it's the weekend. And the way he says it has
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always made me laugh. So I just >> It's my It's a vocal stem that I've had for literal decades.
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>> a lot of random vocal stems cuz I love from Never Been Kissed, ah [ __ ] I don't
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even know my own kid. I love saying that. >> Jose? >> Jose? Oh, randomly we'll just go Jose.
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>> People are probably like, what? >> Like it's from a movie. >> I'm not Josie Grossie anymore.
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>> And that's Never Been Kissed. Thank you. >> Um exciting news. Let's move on to
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actual business. We want you to go get yourself something spooky, honey. Something spooky, something cute,
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something Morbidito. >> Something Morbidito. >> It's our merch. Head to uh seriousxmstore.com
00:01:49
and you can use code morbid for 25% off of your merch order. And that is only for a limited time. It's the 4th through
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the 11th, so don't wait. >> Do it. >> Don't wait. >> It's really comfy, guys. The merch is
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cozy wosey. >> It's really [ __ ] good. >> Yeah. >> Really excited about it. >> We
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um got to do a fun little thing the other day where we wore our merch for it. >> We did.
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>> be some more news coming out soon, but let's get to the news of today because
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today's a cool freaking day. >> Uh we have Patricia Cornwell on the show again today.
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>> I feel like Patricia's like a family friend at this point. >> This is we're recording this intro after
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we already talked to Patricia, and I think she actually said that to us. She said something along those lines.
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>> She knows. She felt it. >> It was It was life-changing for me. I feel like every time we talk to her, I
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just end up very inspired. >> It's true, and I think you guys will, too, because this is an episode where we
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talk about a lot of different things. We're going to talk about uh we're going to talk about Scarpetta, the TV show, um
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which is [ __ ] awesome. I'm telling you guys go watch it. We're going to talk about um her new memoir, True
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Crime. Uh it's literally called True Crime: A Memoir. It's really, really good. >> It's out tomorrow, actually, which is
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May 5th. So, you can go get it. Go pre-order it if you're a day early. Go get it if it's on the day.
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>> If you're in the car, I don't care where you're going. Now, go get you're going
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to a bookstore. >> Yeah, I'm telling you it's a really great. We got the the honor of reading
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it early, and I I'm telling you it's an amazing book. >> So good. >> Um but yeah, this is So, this episode we
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talk about the memoir, we talk about Scarpetta, we talked about uh how to keep yourself safe.
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>> Yeah, like like life tips. >> And what true crime has done to all of our psychies and our paranoias. Uh she
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shared some really crazy stories. And also, she's just crazy inspiring. At the end of it, you're going to be like,
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"Well, [ __ ] I'm going to do stuff." >> Yeah, she's she's incredible. >> funny as hell. Like I love Patricia.
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Patricia forever. Um these episodes are always so much fun. I always end getting up getting off
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them being like, "Can we talk to Patricia again?" >> Oh, you missed the most important part
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actually. We also talk about Jack the Ripper and we think >> Yeah, we do. >> Patricia, this this will not be
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Patricia's last time on the pod, honey. >> No, we know. >> Because I think she's coming back to
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talk about Jack the Ripper. >> Yeah, we're going to try to get her back for some Jack the Ripper realness
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because >> to reel a couple of redheads in in this episode. I said, "Guys, we got to do
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this another time because we got to go full-blown into this." >> We do. So, stay tuned for that cuz I'm
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very interested in Patricia's take. I'm going to reread her book because honestly I haven't read that Jack the
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Ripper Portrait of a Killer book >> Oh my god. >> like a long time. >> read that since like early high school.
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>> Yeah, so now that I have like more information under my belt about Jack the Ripper, I want to give it another go and
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see if I agree with her her person there. >> Walter Sickert. >> So, without further ado, here's the
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episode with Patricia. Here she is. So, Patricia, first of all, huge congratulations on the most hugely
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anticipated Scarpetta series. I have personally been waiting for this I feel like 30 years. I've been just on pins
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and needles for you. >> Me too. >> I can't imagine. I'm so excited for it. >> Well, thank you. I am excited and I was
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just saying a minute ago but I want everybody to hear this and that when I was at the premiere in early March and
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of course I'm looking at at all the influencers and the these shows and things that are really important to the
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the studios and stuff out there and and your show is listed there. >> Ah, that is mind-blowing.
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>> Morbid is listed as one of the the important podcast that for and of course it makes sense. I mean Scarpetta and
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Morbid fit hand in glove, don't they? >> They do. I think so. >> I feel that. >> Well, I suspect she listens to you when
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um she's not busy at, you know, I bet you Scarpetta is tuning into Morbid on a regular basis. She doesn't
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tell me what she listens to, you know. >> I love that. That's That's in my head canon now.
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>> Yeah, I was going to say canon forever. >> You know, we got to find a way to have
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Morbid have a cameo on that show. Wouldn't that be fun? >> We would die. >> I'm going to say something to them next
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time I I see them. I'll say, "We got to do something." Cuz you know, >> I would die on the spot.
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>> Now, I'm going to get in so much trouble. So, here we are talking about it. >> But but um
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>> You know, I suspect that there's some of those characters I mean, we know that
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they secretly listen to your show. So, but but anyway, but I I am glad it's been um
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I I I can't I'm I'm I'm kind of numb. Like I almost can't believe it's happened.
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>> And you have a new memoir coming out. It's actually coming out tomorrow, May 5th. Uh it's called True Crime: A
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Memoir. Go get it, everyone. I'm telling you we were lucky enough to get an early
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copy of it, and I ate it up. It is an amazing memoir. Like truly, truly, truly. Congratulations.
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>> Thank you so much. >> It's so well written. It's very you. That's That's what I loved about it.
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It's like you get the Patricia Cornwell voice throughout. And it feels so conversational, too. It's not your
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typical memoir. >> No, definitely not. >> Well, thank you for that. I mean, you know, I just tried to
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I tried to write it as as as a story. Like you're just telling people a story. I look at true crime
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um and and I know that's seems like a strange title. It was so funny when I Googled. You
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know, you have to Google for titles. You know that. You write books, you know. You know, you can be hard to find a
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title that hadn't been used. And it was surprising to me that really hadn't been used because it's more of a
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genre. >> Yeah. >> And it's a title. But it's perfect for this cuz it's it has many meanings.
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>> Oh, yeah. But >> You know, I don't know where voice comes when you write. When I started it, I
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didn't know what the voice was going to sound like. but I know most of all I think part of it was helped by the
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fact that, you know, I had written a book in college that was a thinly veiled autobiography um because everybody
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should write a book about the first 19 years of their life cuz it's would be so massively interesting to all, right?
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But I at least I got an honors grade for it in college. But that book was told very much from
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the point of view of a child. >> Mhm. >> A young person. And so by the using that
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as source material cuz I had so many anecdotes and stories in it that I wouldn't remember today. For example,
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when I started that I'd just come out of that psychiatric hospital with the from
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the eating disorder. I mean, which was like a crazy movie. >> Oh, yeah. >> You can't make up stuff like that. Me
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being in a place like that for 2 months when I was the only one who, well, I'm not going to say I was the only one.
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I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to say uh it was scary being there.
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>> I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> You're never supposed to say that
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somebody's crazier than you are or they're not. You won't get it to comparisons cuz they probably thought I
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was very strange, too. But anyway, um I had just come out of there and I started writing all this. So I
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remembered it like it was yesterday. You know, right down to the tennis shots that I had to hit when they made me play
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that exhibition match. Now, you tell me that's not crazy. That you're a patient in a psychiatric hospital, you weigh 89
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lb, and because you used to be a well-known tennis player in the area, they they make you do an exhibition
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match in front of all of the patients. >> That's what I find flowing. >> That's honestly nightmarish.
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>> The tennis court was all cracked. There were weeds growing up in it cuz it wasn't used anymore cuz it used to be a
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a a resort and then it became a private hospital. But anyway, you know, when you
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get all these wild stories in life that don't seem fun at the time, but boy are they gifts later.
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>> Yeah, truly. It's one of those things that it's like I should write a book about this.
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>> That's right. >> So you've been you've spent decades telling stories about crime, justice,
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human behavior, human psychology, forensics, all manner of things that have to do with this. What felt like now
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being the moment to tell your story instead of fictionalizing it? >> Well, I didn't want to do it. I've never
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wanted to do it. >> I can imagine. >> And I wouldn't have done it. There are not that many mystery writers, crime
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writers. There There There are not that many autobiographies. And I mean, even Dickens didn't write an autobiography
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because I think these people, you know, you die in the saddle. You You're still working on your last book. And I didn't
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want to do this either. But then when when they were Someone was talking about making a television show, having a
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character based on me, when I read a draft of a of a script, I didn't recognize the character and it wasn't
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the writer's fault. It really was because there's no record out there to check. If you want to know the
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definitive things about my life, you have to piece it together from many, many interviews over the years. And uh
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present company excluded, not not all people who interview you to tell tell things accurately.
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>> Right. I can imagine. >> So, I was just going to write down a bunch of notes. And the next thing I
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knew, I thought, you know, I should just try to What happens if I start telling the story? I'm I just finished my last
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book three or four months early. I've got a little time if I want to think about it.
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And I never know when I start a book whether that story wants to be told and until it tells me that it does.
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>> Yeah. >> You start when I say You start the page, I think of a scene, and I thought, well,
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how would I start this story about my life? What scene? And it's the same way I started
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Scarpetta novel. What is the scene? Where is she right now? What is she doing? And I I know you all You relate
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to this. I thought, well, I have to start when I woke up that morning and I and I heard my mother burning all her
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clothes in the living room. >> That's the one. >> And her rapid footsteps going up and
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down the hall and I'm looking out the window at the snow and there's And my brothers are making weird noises in
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their bedroom and I'm upset and telling her to stop. That event changed everything that would ever happen to me
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ever again. Because if she had not done that and then marched us try to take us up the mountain and give us to Billy
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Graham's family, which she she successfully we got up there because their caretaker saw us and knew
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something was really wrong with her watching me walk these kids walking these kids up there in the snow. And but
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and they're I mean I still see Ruth sitting in the living room way back then when I was 9 years old.
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And that was the beginning of my transferring really truly my affection and my trust to that woman.
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Instead of my own mother. That's why I mean I continued to live with my mother, but
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but Ruth was like she was this hero to me. >> Mhm. >> And I and I always you know she always
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was kind to me when I'd see her in the town, but we weren't like friends when I was a kid, but I'd see her around cuz
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she was home. Um and and Billy wasn't there too much. But then when I had that hospital thing,
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that's when she took me under her wing when I was 19 and she gave me my first journal and said I want you to write
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because I feel like I know you're talented. She'd read some poetry and stuff I'd
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done. I mean she'd be a nice. So I did. I started writing that book that weirdly
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enough half a century later has spun off into true crime. It's it's a who I mean
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life is so mysterious. It's really far more mysterious than anything we would write that these things can happen like
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this. >> It's certainly true. >> Absolutely. Well, and I think there's power to in being able to tell your own
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story for the first time when you've experienced this so many people have told it for you for so long. That must
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be a really empowering place to be in now. >> I'm not sure you even know what your
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real story is until you start telling it. >> Yeah, I can see that. >> You know, and that's been the beauty and
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the horror of doing this memoir because it gives you a bird's eye view of your entire life. You put it in perspective.
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It's almost like you're you're in a spaceship looking down. And it's both is the two things that I've been struck
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with is that I marvel over what people might call serendipity, you know, or synchronicity, and or we might call it
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miracles, you might call it divine intervention, but whatever you want to call it, I see evidence of that through
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my whole life. I mean, the idea that my mother would go to a Billy Graham crusade in Miami when we still lived
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there, and because she was so taken with him and became a Christian, then she wanted to live where he did and
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moved us all the way across, you know, all the way up to North Carolina to a little town where she'd never been
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before. We had no place to stay. Imagine that, and then I end up on their doorstep.
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>> Yeah, that's quite unbelievable. >> You know, that that is really truly like that that's the sort of stuff that is
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like an adult fairy tale. >> Yeah, it's such an upheaval. Like I have I have 10-year-old twins, and I just think of
00:14:26
9-year-old you. I'm like being like that kind of upheaval must have just been out
00:14:32
of this world because I feel like they need such consistency and such safety at all times. So I just I that was like
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killing me reading that. I was like, "Oh my god, I want to go back there and just
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like give you stability." >> Well, you know what it when you it gives you more empathy for how my mother must
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have felt sometimes. I mean, a lot of it she didn't remember because when you have the the electroconvulsive shock
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therapy, and she and she had hundreds of these treatments after two hospitalizations and it
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wiped out a lot of her memory was gone. And so I honestly don't know that she remembered burning our clothes or take I
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know a part of her a part of her did remember taking us up to the Grahams, and I'll tell you how I know that is cuz
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she would avoid Ruth like the plague. >> Oh, interesting. >> She didn't go up and speak to her in
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church. The few times that I mean when you would see Billy in church, which was like a huge deal. It's like the
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president could show up. And I say this in the book. My mother put him on such pedestal. He you know she watched every
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show, every crusade, everything he was on TV. She listened to him on the radio. She read all his books. She read his
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column in the newspaper. And here he lived right up the road. And whenever he was around, she would
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never ever go up to him. I don't think she ever met him. >> Wow. Wild. >> I was just around their older son
00:15:52
Franklin just a couple weeks ago. We spent some time together. And we were talking about this and I said,
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you know the weird thing is, I said, the whole time I was growing up, I don't think my mother ever met your father
00:16:02
once. Because she was so embarrassed. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> So embarrassed by what she'd done and so
00:16:10
So you'll like this story. So what I tried to do to make her feel better. And this was probably in around 2004 or so.
00:16:19
And when I was flying helicopters all over the place and occasionally I would land my helicopter
00:16:23
in Ruth's yard. She had On top of this ridge with this backyard and it's just a big drop off after that with the road
00:16:30
that goes down the mountain. But this yard, I mean there's no room to spare. And we would land I mean it'd blow her
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roses everywhere. It was It looked like the Wizard of Oz coming down, you know, the house.
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>> Oh yeah. >> They're like, oh there's a helicopter here. >> And she'd be out on the porch going like
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this. Billy would come wandering out like, what What is going on? >> Who's landing in our yard?
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>> But on this one occasion, Ruth said, "You should bring your mother up here." Cuz I And mother had never been up to
00:17:02
that house since the time she took us up there when I was nine to give us away. >> So I said, "You know what?
00:17:09
I'm going to do that. But you know, this time we're going to go up we're going to
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land in a helicopter >> Yeah. Yeah. >> We're not trucking up there. >> I flew my mother there and we landed in
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the helicopter and I said, "If you're going to return after all that, maybe this will help give you your dignity
00:17:20
back a little bit." And I have a picture I have a picture of us sitting on Ruth's
00:17:24
porch with Mom, and Ruth and I are on either side of my mother, and my mother's got this big smile on her face.
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>> There's something about replacing like an awful memory with something 10 times
00:17:36
better. And it's so cool that you were able to do that for her. Yeah. >> Well, you know, in quantum mechanics,
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they now say that what you do in the present can change the past. >> Absolutely. Makes sense.
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>> That is an example of you can change the past by doing things that change the way
00:17:52
people feel about it. >> Oh, yeah. >> And you can do do have the power to do that. And it's a And science will tell
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you that. Isn't that wonderful? >> Oh, yeah, absolutely is. Yeah. I love that. But how cool of you to just
00:18:05
be willing to do that after everything that you'd gone through. And I can imagine those were hard times to write
00:18:10
about. >> I did not enjoy it. >> Yeah, I'm sure. It's like opening a wound. >> about your share, I walked around
00:18:15
feeling rather morbid for a while. >> I'm sure. Yeah. >> You know, so many people are gone, you
00:18:21
know, have have died, and um and I'm not that person anymore. I mean, I'm turning
00:18:25
70 not too long in a few month or so, and I go, "Where Where did it go? What happens?" And you start looking back on
00:18:33
your early life, and it's really like it's almost like it's somebody else. It doesn't even feel anymore.
00:18:38
>> That's got to be a trip. >> But I've you know, I'm glad I did it. I wouldn't say it's fun. I'll tell you one
00:18:45
of the hard parts about it for me is even if someone's been awful, I really don't like to say bad things about them
00:18:52
publicly. >> Yeah, sure. >> I have to. Like that foster mother. I'm sorry I had to say it. Um I'm sorry I
00:18:59
had to say what Larry King did because there's a difference between sloppy flirty, and I've been that, too, and
00:19:04
try to take power over people. >> Absolutely. >> Abusing your power because you can.
00:19:10
>> Yeah. >> But most of all, I thought for my readers who've been following me for
00:19:15
decades, almost 40 years now, I want them to know the true story of who I am. >> Right.
00:19:20
>> Whether they like it or they don't. >> Mhm. >> And also for other artists, because it's
00:19:25
not easy. And one thing you learn is even if you get where you want to go, you've got to keep recreating yourself
00:19:31
all the time. >> Mhm. >> You don't ever arrive. You're always going. >> Mhm. >> And it's And even when the station is
00:19:39
glitzy and maybe you're number one and and you're making a lot of money, the next train station's not going to be the
00:19:44
same. >> That's so true. >> No. >> No, so you better be ready. And and never give up. If you have something
00:19:50
that you have value that you want to add, even if we're telling these grizzly graphic stories, and I often think to
00:19:57
myself, what edification am I offering to the world? What am I doing to make things
00:20:02
better by telling these stories? Is it Or is this just me who who can do it therefore wants to? Um but no, I do
00:20:09
think there's a place for it, because we are showing people the bad things that can happen out there, and we make
00:20:16
it palatable through mysteries. You do it, I do it, and your show does it, your books do it, all of it.
00:20:23
If it wasn't real, then I would say, why bother >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> putting all this in somebody's head. But
00:20:29
it is real. >> Absolutely. >> There are serial killers. There are people get struck by lightning. There
00:20:34
are There are some of the most hideous and bizarre things that happen to people that can ever be imagined. And and
00:20:39
unfortunately, if you've been exposed to it, you're never the same. >> Mhm. >> But at the same time, I I I'd like to
00:20:45
ask you a question. Would you undo and not know all this if you could? >> No way.
00:20:49
>> No. >> See, I wouldn't either, cuz that's like telling me, then show up at a a gunfight
00:20:53
with a pea shooter. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yes. >> You're speaking my language, because we
00:20:59
know that >> prepared. These stories That's the thing, these stories prepare us, and I
00:21:02
think they're That's why they're necessary, like you say. >> Yeah. Like I always And I think it's
00:21:06
important to obviously like with my own kids I do it. I I make it palatable for them and like age-appropriate, but I
00:21:14
think it's important that they know not every every adult has your best interest
00:21:18
in mind and not every adult is safe to go to. And an adult will never need your help. So if an adult comes up to you and
00:21:25
says I need help, you scream and run. Like you need to prepare people early because the world is changing.
00:21:32
Especially girls, I think it's so important. >> Oh, and listen, I love I saw I saw
00:21:36
somebody some women scientists I think it was had come up with a nail polish that Yeah.
00:21:43
You can dip your finger in and it will change colors if someone spiked your drink while you went to the ladies'
00:21:48
room. Genius. But it and how sad that we have to do this, but I love that people are
00:21:54
evolving. Like the science and technology is evolving with the bad people essentially. Listen, if I had a kid,
00:22:01
she'd have on nail polish, toe polish. She'd have on a GPS tracker. >> Yep. >> She'd have an invisibility cloak for
00:22:07
when it's a bad moment. And yeah, I mean I can't I don't know how you tell your kids to how to watch
00:22:13
out in this world or or someone wants to give you candy and it's fentanyl. >> Oh, yeah.
00:22:17
>> I mean it's So we live in a dangerous world and so the people like us, we are
00:22:22
here to be to trailblazers. We hold a torch and we go down a long dark scary path and we say you follow us. You hang
00:22:31
on to the hem of our coat if you want to if you're scared. We'll lead the way. We're going to show you what's here so
00:22:36
that you don't ever do certain things where this could be a problem. >> Exactly.
00:22:39
>> don't know what's out here, then you're going to go driving in that neighborhood
00:22:43
or you're not going to lock your door or you're going to leave your window open or you're only going to We've talked
00:22:47
about this before. You're not going to have a ground a landline so that when they a signal jammer turns off your
00:22:53
Wi-Fi, that someone's going to break in and you don't hear them. >> Exactly. >> It just don't work.
00:22:58
>> Yeah. >> So you know what I say? I say, you show me what kind of crap happens out there and then you make my
00:23:04
day cuz we're going to we're going to make it so hard for you to do that. >> Yes. Patricia, you just led me perfectly
00:23:10
into our next question for you. There's a line in your memoir that hit Alina and
00:23:14
I both like slap across the face immediately. You write, "I don't even want to leave the newsroom because my
00:23:19
imagination escorts me to the car." That is We were like, it's beyond real. Because we find like we were just
00:23:26
saying, covering these true crime stories, it changes how you move through the world. And we want to know what's
00:23:31
something you do out of either habit, instinct, maybe paranoia, that most people might find unusual. Like your
00:23:38
number one uh safety tip or trick. >> Well, first of all, I you know, I always make sure that you Well, first of all,
00:23:46
always know where an exit door is. >> Yes. So smart. >> Whether you're in a room or you're in a
00:23:52
hotel, know where how you're going to get out. And and so what Okay, so I'll admit it. I go to a
00:23:59
restaurant, I go anywhere, I'm looking all around me, I'm looking at the entrance, and I'm thinking if somebody
00:24:03
comes in here to start robbing everybody, what are you going to do? >> Yep. >> And so it's just it's it's just
00:24:09
automatic that that I think about worst-case scenario and and how you would react. What should you do? And I
00:24:16
And there's not an easy answer. It depends on where you are and what the circumstances are. But I always tell
00:24:21
people, you know, this is the way I think. Okay, I'll tell you something I do. I walk through parking lots heading
00:24:27
somewhere, and I look at every car I walk between, and I think if I were a bad person, what
00:24:34
information are they leaving in their car that tells me that they could be a potential victim? Baby shoes hanging
00:24:40
from the rearview mirror. >> That's smart. >> Gym bag in the back seat with the the
00:24:45
name and address on a on a sticker that you can see through the window. >> Yep. >> It could be anything, a bumper sticker.
00:24:51
>> Yep. >> Or something that that makes people think you're a single woman who lives
00:24:56
alone. I don't know what it is, but do not uh uh You know what is a real crazy crazy thing people do? People go to
00:25:03
conventions and they walk out on the sidewalk with a name tag on. So, okay, so I'm a bad person and I'm
00:25:10
going to abduct you. I'm going to come up to you and I'm going to say Helen, what are you doing in Charleston?
00:25:17
>> You just say, "What?" >> Yeah, I must know you. >> Yeah. >> You don't remember me? Oh, what what are
00:25:23
you what what's what's going on? Oh, I'm blah blah blah blah. And I said, "Well,
00:25:25
you we met a couple years ago. I don't expect." And next thing you know, this person has let their guard down. This is
00:25:30
total scam. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And so >> So easily. >> Don't don't give people don't stand in
00:25:36
an airport line with a tote bag that has your home address on a tag that someone
00:25:39
could see and take a picture of. >> So so smart. Such good advice. >> want to get me started on this.
00:25:45
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, we could all go on for hours. >> Yeah. Tell me something you do.
00:25:49
>> Well, my whole thing is if they come to your house during the day, they want your stuff. If they come to your house
00:25:55
during the night, they want you. So, I I uh make locking my doors at night like an Olympic sport.
00:26:03
>> It's like medieval Europe around here. She's like barricading the doors. >> I I put heavy things in front of every
00:26:10
exit or entrance. Like things that we could move, but things that if a door was pushed open, it would fall down and
00:26:15
make a huge noise. Cuz I like to have that extra second that we could hear something and react appropriately.
00:26:22
>> Well, I have a I have a very unfortunate newsflash for you. >> Oh, lord. Okay.
00:26:27
>> Home invasions during the day or the night it it may not make any difference what time of day it is. The biggest
00:26:33
problem with people being home during a burglary is sometimes a burglar breaks in and is not intending
00:26:39
anyone to be there, but then you become what's called a crime of opportunity. And so And and nowadays, these home
00:26:46
invasions happen in the home We didn't used to have home invasions like we got now.
00:26:50
>> Honestly, now during the day it feels like it's being >> it's terrifying. >> Yeah, it's a lot scarier now.
00:26:55
>> can happen at any hour of the night. And what And here's what you have to do.
00:26:59
First of all, I'm a big advocate of alarm systems. >> Oh, I love an alarm system.
00:27:03
>> And and make sure that your alarm system is on a a a ground, you know, a a real
00:27:08
line, it's not wireless. >> Mhm. >> if your wireless goes out, I mean, there are precautions you can take to outsmart
00:27:14
the things that people are going to try to do stuff. >> Yeah. >> And frankly, um I think everybody should
00:27:18
be thinking that way. >> Mhm. >> You don't ever open your door when you don't know who's there. And if it's a
00:27:22
cop if it's a cop and it's only one cop in particular, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm not
00:27:27
expecting you. I'm calling 911 to see why you're here." Cuz that you can get these uniforms now.
00:27:32
>> Oh, yeah. Fake badges. >> It's a shame, but you can't the the inherent trust that we felt as
00:27:39
children in a world that was relatively safe by comparison. And I I sound so depressing to people, I'm sure, but I'm
00:27:46
sorry, you cannot live that way anymore. >> Well, you have to be informed. You have to.
00:27:51
>> my kids if I had little kids, I like you, I I wouldn't let them walk about to
00:27:56
the tennis courts and the pool >> Oh, yeah. >> that I used to do. >> No. No, they don't go anywhere by
00:28:01
themselves. And we have little like they're we know where they are at all times.
00:28:06
>> Yeah. >> So we can follow them. >> They have these little watches. >> Yeah, they don't
00:28:10
I'm crazy. I'm probably like a helicopter parent, but I feel like now we have to be a helicopter parent. Like
00:28:16
I'm perfectly fine with that. >> But how could you not be now when you >> that you know.
00:28:21
>> And then just yeah. >> the world we live in, but you have special knowledge of them. You know, you
00:28:25
worked in a in a morgue. You know. >> Yeah. Mhm. Oh, yeah. >> You you know, you're all been exposed
00:28:31
and you've talked to so many people. This is a reality. It's not just some fanciful who done it.
00:28:36
>> Yeah, but I do think it gives you a leg up being informed the way that we are.
00:28:39
Some people I think like especially in our lives, people think we're paranoid, but I'd rather be paranoid than
00:28:44
uninformed. >> Right. >> Knowledge is power. >> And trust your instincts. I mean, your
00:28:49
instincts There's a part of your brain that knows things that you consciously don't really know. I know that sounds
00:28:55
weird, >> Yeah. No, that's so true. >> If somebody If you're If some If you're confronted with somebody, like I had
00:29:00
somebody chase me down the escalator once. >> Oh. >> Um I was with a young This was way early
00:29:05
on not way before I was, you know, the Scarpeta person. I was in Washington going down
00:29:11
that escalator on Dupont Circle, which is like Dante's Inferno. It just goes and goes and goes. And we And we were at
00:29:17
the top and we were going down and this guy in camouflage started coming after us and saying, "You can
00:29:23
run, but you can't hide." >> Oh my god. >> And he And he chased us all the way down
00:29:27
to the bottom where we got to the turnstile. My friend is like freaking out. He comes right up to us
00:29:34
and I don't know what Something just came over me and I looked to him right in the
00:29:38
eye and and he say he say he was mumbling all this stuff or you're this or you're that. And I said, "Let me tell
00:29:43
you what I am. I said, "I'm a cop. And you better get your ass out of here right now.
00:29:48
Do not make me say it again." >> Hell yeah. >> He said, "You're not a cop." I said,
00:29:54
"I'm a cop. You better get out of here now." And he either decided that I was one or I was crazy as he might have
00:30:00
been. >> He wasn't messing with you. >> And he left. And I don't even know why I
00:30:05
did that cuz sometimes that's the worst thing you can do. >> But you But something told you that that was
00:30:10
the moment. >> me. And so when I got back up to the top on the sidewalk, I mean, my knees turned
00:30:16
to water. >> Oh, sure. >> But we Trust your instincts. If your gut tells you, "Don't get on that elevator.
00:30:23
Don't cross to that side of the street. Don't get in that Uber." >> Mhm. >> And by the way, make sure when you are
00:30:29
doing ride-sharing, you always have something in your pocketbook or your pocket or your coat that you could use
00:30:35
to to help yourself if this person decides to abduct you. >> Yes. >> And I don't mean to be gross, but phone
00:30:41
charger? >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> You know, you do what you can. >> Whatever you can.
00:30:45
>> A A ink pen, you Are we really talking about this? >> Yeah. A nail file. >> I mean, you What Are you as freaky as I
00:30:51
am? Cuz we This is This is the morbid discussion from hell. But anyway, but but I don't mean I I don't mean to
00:30:58
be gross, but you need to think about what you would do. So, cuz you're What will happen is you're better off that
00:31:03
that guy wrecks the car than gets you where he's going to take you and do what he's going to do to you.
00:31:09
>> So, think about these things and then hopefully it never happens. >> Yeah. >> But but I think about that kind of stuff
00:31:15
and and I hope it never happens and I hope if something does, I've thought about it, but
00:31:20
it's It'd be easier never to have to think about these things, but once you know it's out there, you have to think
00:31:25
about these things. >> Mhm. >> Unless you Unless you want to die. >> Yeah. And with a ride share, too, never
00:31:31
give them your name up front. Don't go up and say, "Hey, is this for Elena?" Like make them say your name. Say who
00:31:38
Who's this ride for? >> That's a good point. >> I told my husband that recently. He
00:31:43
thought I was crazy. I'm like, "Well, it's going to save you from getting abducted."
00:31:46
>> you give them their name, all they have to say is yes, and now you're in the car.
00:31:50
>> Right. >> Yeah. Always make them say it. All right. Well, switching gears here a
00:31:55
little bit. We talked about We talked about all this all these safety precautions, which I'm sure we're going
00:31:59
to get back to. >> Oh, yeah. >> But just remember, anybody can read my memoir, but they can't hear our crime
00:32:04
tips like this. >> Exactly. Yes, exactly. That's true. But I do want to go back to your memoir for
00:32:09
a second. We did talk about the harder times to write, but was there a particular chapter of your life that was
00:32:14
actually really fun for you to revisit? Like exciting to revisit? >> Um I always enjoy revisiting when I went
00:32:22
to London and got the the the the first big crime award from Princess Margaret. Cuz I mean, you talk about Beverly
00:32:29
Hillbillies and or or the old you know, Ma and Pa Kettle, me going to London. And the whole bit about getting the call
00:32:37
in the morgue and then literally I don't know why the chief medical examiner did this because this
00:32:43
is so so crazy. I think I said it in my book, too, but I got the call and >> I got the call in my office. You know,
00:32:49
I'm looking at my cinder block wall and my steel desk across from the elevator where all the stink comes in up the
00:32:55
shaft with my can of Lysol on the desk. Ring, ring, and I answer and it's my literary agent and he says, "Well, I've
00:33:02
got news for you. You've just won the best first crime novel in Great Britain." I said, "What?"
00:33:08
>> And he said >> And and it's being presented, I think it was something like the Royal Law
00:33:12
Society. I don't know what it was. And by Princess Margaret and I said, "What?" >> Say it again.
00:33:17
>> So, who's this again? And and you have to go there and it's like next month or whatever.
00:33:22
So, I and I said so I'm being presented to royalty? >> Excuse me? >> I said, "Okay, well okay, well, I have
00:33:29
to think about this for a minute. So, thank you." And thank you. I'm going to present you
00:33:34
with >> Cheerio. >> He said, "Pip, pip, cheerio." >> I go I go downstairs. Marcella's gone,
00:33:40
so I can't tell her. She left and and and the chief is down there and he's finishing a a stab wound homicide case
00:33:47
and he's he's in he's holding his forceps with the wound he's excised hanging from it.
00:33:52
>> This is one of my favorite things I've read. >> And I walked in and and I say,
00:33:56
"You won't guess you never guess it. I just postmortem just won best first crime novel in the UK and Princess
00:34:03
Margaret's presenting me the award." And his reaction is he threw the thing at Why?
00:34:09
>> I laughed so hard. William and I were talking about this. >> it up. I picked it up and I put it in
00:34:14
the little carton where it belongs and I went rinsed my fingers and said, "Well,
00:34:17
I'll see you tomorrow." And I left. >> Thank you so much. Thanks for the congrats.
00:34:22
>> And on my way home, I stopped at the most expensive clothing boutique in Richmond.
00:34:26
>> Montaldo's. >> Yes, girl. >> And that's where I got my little outfit. They put me on a little wooden box, and
00:34:32
dressed me. That's why I had to curtsy. And I I mean I I wrote down in my journal at the time how much I spent on
00:34:38
everything. You know, I think I was appalled that I spent $1.98 on really fancy pantyhose or
00:34:45
something. That That was You know, I was used to the L'eggs or whatever, the cheap stuff.
00:34:49
Yeah. And so, but I from from soup to nuts, it was one disaster after the next of me going and
00:34:58
getting that award, and then getting dragged away by the men in the red coats cuz you're not supposed to ask questions
00:35:03
of royalty. You don't chat with them. I was just being >> know that. >> Yeah. >> How are you supposed to know?
00:35:09
>> ride horses? Everybody rides horses in the royal family, you numbskull. >> I I would have been the same way. What
00:35:16
are you supposed to do? >> Can I pet your horse? >> I'm just happy to be here. >> It was And then I mean it was crazy. And
00:35:23
then then And then to wake up the next morning and it snowed. I was snowed in to It London.
00:35:28
>> That's darling. >> and now And so, I wandered the whole day through, you know, looking in all these
00:35:33
beautiful stores that I couldn't afford. I had no I hadn't moved there yet, but I
00:35:37
when I did do something rather cheeky years later, oh God, I shouldn't tell this story either cuz oh, my neighbors
00:35:43
are going to know this now. But I I'd gone back when a couple of years later for something, and I
00:35:49
I'd moved to this wealthy neighborhood and it's I call it you know, Windsor Farms in Richmond is the place to live,
00:35:55
and I'd found a starter home there cuz it was handicap equipped, and it was not old. It was faux Tudor.
00:36:02
I mean, let's be honest, every Tudor there is faux Tudor, but truth. But mine was really faux Tudor cuz it hadn't been
00:36:08
built too long ago. And I'd gotten a fire sale for it, so I was able to afford to move there. Well, everybody
00:36:14
else, you know, they It was There was some attitudes in that neighborhood, shall we say.
00:36:19
>> I imagine. >> were very curious about why I was living there, and they would ask you who your
00:36:24
family was. They want to know who you're descended from, and I didn't and it was
00:36:28
that kind of thing. So I went to London and I happen to be in a flag shop and I bought one of these hospitality flags
00:36:35
you hang over your door. >> Mhm. >> And it was a rampant lion on it, very British looking for my British Tudor
00:36:41
house. And I wanted them to initial to embroidered the initials FR on the corner of the flag.
00:36:50
They said why? So be just because I want it. Okay, so it's not custom made. So anyway I have now a custom made flag
00:36:57
for my faux British house and I get to say and I hang it over the entrance and there's this beautiful lot
00:37:05
rampant lion flag over my faux Tudor house flapping and and the neighbors would go, what does FR stand for? I
00:37:12
said, oh, it's Flags of Regent Street. I'm sure you've heard of it. They custom made this for me. They said,
00:37:18
oh, that's lovely. I'm sure yes, I have to look at that place. Well, what it really means and I won't say it out
00:37:23
loud, it means F and rich. Because that's the only reason I could afford to live there. It's not cuz I was
00:37:29
anybody special. And so that was my way and and that F and rich flag hung above my door the whole time I lived there.
00:37:37
>> That is I just I already had so much respect for you. >> a single person knew.
00:37:43
>> I love that so much. I already had so much respect for you but it's leveled up
00:37:47
even more. That's incredible. I don't need the family name. This is why I'm here.
00:37:52
I love that a lot. >> It's always good to have a private joke as long as you're not hurting somebody
00:37:58
else's feelings and nobody knew. >> No. >> And and then the honest truth was let's
00:38:02
be honest, why are we so special here? Because we could afford to live here. That's the only reason.
00:38:07
>> Yeah, you're just being honest. Like let's go. You're straight up about it. Oh, I love that a lot. And
00:38:13
speaking of like favorite parts of the memoir, one of my favorite things in the memoir was when he threw the stab wound
00:38:20
at you and you were just like, why did he do that? I don't know. I just picked it up and put it away.
00:38:24
>> Have they You've seen a You've seen people do some strange stuff down there, haven't you? Tell me.
00:38:29
>> I was you know that's what I was going to say to you was personally when I saw
00:38:33
that I read it in there and I said yep, that's that is morbid humor. Like that is you have to have gallows humor I feel
00:38:41
like to survive down there. >> Didn't you have one guy that would always play Kesha to get through
00:38:46
autopsies? >> We always had a playlist. Like everyone got their own playlist, what you were
00:38:50
comfortable with. Some people had like very chill music that they like to work with.
00:38:55
And there was one guy I worked with and he just always played Kesha. And so he'd be like dancing in the
00:39:02
middle of doing thing and he was so meticulous. Like he was doing his job to a T. He never messed up. He was never
00:39:10
disrespectful, but he was just dancing, singing, doing the whole thing. I loved working with him because he made it such
00:39:16
a different experience. >> That's so funny. >> Yeah. I feel like you need to have that.
00:39:21
>> You know it's funny. I mean there are a lot of things that that I've seen in an
00:39:25
autopsy suite that are are probably not that abnormal really like what you just were talking about. Unusual. It's not
00:39:33
it's weird. I don't translate that into my book. Some of it can be a little mean-spirited. I mean I remember for
00:39:37
example there was a young a forensic pathology fellow, a young woman. And there weren't you know this
00:39:43
is back in the day when there weren't too many women. >> was getting started. So case this is
00:39:48
like So what they would do is a body comes in that's decomposed that's really bad. You know and you know what when you
00:39:55
unzip it there's all kinds of things moving around in there. I'm talking about >> That's when you know.
00:39:59
>> That's the kind of stuff that the new person would get. >> Yep. >> And it's totally deliberate.
00:40:03
>> Yeah. >> Or a bat got killed in the morgue and someone fixes it in formalin and hangs
00:40:07
it from a string over someone's desk. >> That kind of stuff. >> by the way is not funny when you're
00:40:12
sitting down and you look up and there's that thing hanging over the desk. >> Yeah that's pretty awful. Yeah.
00:40:18
>> But you know, but the one thing in the the medical examiner's office I was in
00:40:22
yes, people have to vent, and there is some real gallows humor, but the one thing that didn't happen is people
00:40:28
weren't disrespectful towards people >> right. No. >> But, but you you laugh at other things.
00:40:34
You know, you you laugh at the I think I may have told you this story. This is one of my favorites where one of
00:40:40
the one of the medical examiners had gone to a house where a lady had died on the couch and was probably natural
00:40:47
causes, but she wasn't under the care of a physician, so that someone had to check her out. So, she does her thing.
00:40:52
She comes back to the morgue. The next morning, she's wandering around and she's looking like she's not like Mrs.
00:40:58
Magoo when she says, "I can't find my glasses anywhere. Has anybody seen my glasses?"
00:41:03
>> Oh, no. >> Meanwhile, cut to the funeral of the lady on the sofa. She's lying open in
00:41:09
her open casket with these red glasses. >> And people are walking around her casket
00:41:14
saying, "I didn't know she wore those glasses." I didn't know she wore glasses at all.
00:41:19
>> What a family story. >> So, I think I don't I I maybe they got returned to that medical examiner. I
00:41:25
don't know. >> Wow. Oh, my god. >> Do you want them after that? >> Or the time a station wagon full of
00:41:32
bodies that had been embalmed and are on their way to Medical College of Virginia
00:41:36
and there's a car accident and all the bodies are on the highway. >> Oh, no. >> trooper stops and and obviously they
00:41:43
aren't dressed after they're embalmed and he the trooper stops and he gets on his radio and he says, "Oh my god,
00:41:50
there's been this terrible accident and it was so violent it blowed all their clothes off."
00:41:57
>> The poor guy. He's like, "What happened here?" >> gets hazed about that to this day
00:42:02
probably. >> Well, that's the time someone gets carjacked and you get to and you get
00:42:06
look what's in the back and you go, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that." >> It's like, "Whoops."
00:42:13
That would be instant karma, to be honest. >> it would. >> Uh but you know what, another one of my
00:42:18
favorite parts of the story is that, like speaking of autopsies, is that you committed and went to become a volunteer
00:42:25
police officer, partially at least it seemed like, to be permitted to be part of an autopsy.
00:42:31
I thought that was such commitment to the cause. >> The dedication. >> I loved that you ended up loving it.
00:42:37
>> Oh gosh, I've always had uniform envy since I was born. And I tell I tell everybody I run around
00:42:43
with the Secret Service, the FBI, and I'm going envy, envy. I have badge envy, I have gun envy, I have uniform envy.
00:42:51
When Stacy and I met the Carabinieri in Italy, we both decided we would sign on just for their uniform.
00:42:57
>> I get it. Oh yeah. >> The red silk-lined capes and all this. And so, when I had a chance to When
00:43:07
Marcella suggested say look you have to have legitimacy. I mean, you did as a autopsy technician, you can be down
00:43:13
there. I had no legitimacy to be in the morgue. And I said, "Well, what can I do
00:43:17
to have legitimacy?" She said, "Well, you could be a volunteer police officer. That That would probably do it."
00:43:22
>> "Got it." >> I didn't even know there was that, and I thought, "Wow, hmm, I kind of like that
00:43:26
thought anyway." >> I was like, "Sure." Kill two birds with one stone. >> Yeah. It's so funny when my when Charlie
00:43:31
would would take photographs of me in my uniform, I could tell he was just trying
00:43:35
to be nice, but it's like, "Not a good look. Not a good look." >> I think it's a great look. You wore it
00:43:41
well. And was there anything about that time, being a volunteer police officer, that
00:43:48
surprised you, or a time that you Something that really made you excited to be a volunteer police officer?
00:43:53
>> Well, I loved all of it. I mean, I really did. I did I I loved riding with detectives, I loved being in uniform,
00:43:59
and but one of the things that I didn't realize is the hardship a lot of police feel or suffer through from just the
00:44:06
discomfort of the job. Like I'd be out directing traffic and and the carbon monoxide's getting to me.
00:44:12
>> Oh, I didn't even think of that. >> a little woozy or and the heat coming up through my these awful shoes, you know,
00:44:17
I got one of them right here, you know, this is one of my shoes I wore back then.
00:44:21
>> god. They don't look like they have good uh >> They don't have support. >> They're horrible. They're horrible.
00:44:28
horrible And and when you were like showing up at a baseball game and just kind of
00:44:34
patrolling around and stuff and my feet would hurt and my hat would get me the hat would give me a terrible headache.
00:44:41
>> Oh, yeah. >> It's you know, just the discomforts of things that you you're not used to.
00:44:46
>> Yeah. >> And I don't know, I just loved being exposed to something that I mean I
00:44:51
really I really thought seriously when I couldn't get published, I thought about
00:44:54
whether I should just become a police officer. I even talked to a lieutenant about it and said
00:44:58
do you think that that I could would be okay as a police officer? Now mind you, I already had one book
00:45:04
published the Ruth Graham biography and all the rest of it. And so this this lieutenant very diplomatically said
00:45:11
most people who become officers do better if they're kind of like everybody else.
00:45:16
>> Huh. >> And I'm not sure what she was saying there, but I think it was a big I think
00:45:20
that was like a big fat no. >> It was a nice way. >> But but I um I I am I cherished that I ever did that.
00:45:31
I'm so glad I did it. It um you know, it'd be hard to do that today. >> Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:37
>> different world, but it Oh, the other thing is I I if you were a volunteer the rest of the rank and file for the
00:45:44
most part had no use for you. When we would roll up on a scene, they would look at us like we were
00:45:48
>> Like why are you here? >> Yeah. We were not the real deal. They they wanted they you know, kind of go
00:45:54
on. We don't need your help with anything. Or somebody would make a smart out alec remark about Hey, you don't
00:46:00
you're not wearing a gun. >> And you're like shut up. >> I'd point to my watch. I'd say you don't
00:46:05
know what this can do. It's got a special feature to it. Don't bother me. >> Iconic. I love that.
00:46:11
The unknown, okay? Leave me alone. I just love the commitment because you wanted to be part of an autopsy and
00:46:20
you were like, what do I have to do to get there? And I'm going to get there. >> same thing. That's why I could relate to
00:46:25
it so much. I didn't do the volunteer police officer, but I really wanted to be involved in autopsies and was like
00:46:33
singularly focused on it. And I started just kind of like harassing the head of pathology where I wanted to do it until
00:46:40
he did a research project with me and he was like, you can't be in an autopsy at
00:46:44
but we can do this research project. We went through that and then finally I just like bugged him and did whatever I
00:46:51
could during this research project to get into that room. And when I was finally given access to the room, it was
00:46:57
like, okay. Like I was like it felt so good cuz I was like, this is something I really wanted and I made sure I got it.
00:47:04
And I feel like that's exactly what you did. You were like, I'm getting there. >> You know, the interesting thing is you
00:47:09
call your show morbid, but the very your very curiosity about an autopsy and anybody's real curiosity is anything but
00:47:17
morbid. It's not morbid. You know what it really is? It's a privilege. >> Yes. >> When you've got a body on the table of
00:47:24
someone who has been murdered, which is horrible and I'm not saying it's a privilege cuz it's a good thing.
00:47:29
It's a privilege that you are given an opportunity to try to reconstruct what happened there and do something that
00:47:37
might change the lives of a lot of people. If you can figure it out, it's it's really what you've got is an a sort
00:47:44
of a metaphorical archaeology site >> Yeah. >> waiting to be excavated and you're the
00:47:48
first person who's going to put the trowel in that and see what's under that surface and you might find something you
00:47:54
never imagined. And that's what's that's what's fun about autopsies, especially writing about them, is there can be so
00:48:01
all these surprises, something that completely changes the course that you were on, and you decide this didn't
00:48:07
happen. Now I'm thinking this might have happened, right? >> Yeah, exactly. And >> the dead speak.
00:48:13
>> And that's the thing cuz when >> And that's the privilege. >> Death always feels like that's it.
00:48:19
There's no helping after death. Like death is the final the end of the curtain, that's it. But I
00:48:24
feel like in an autopsy, death is just like the beginning of helping. When you're in the autopsy, now you can
00:48:30
really help, and now you can really make a difference. >> That's right. >> And make this death mean something
00:48:36
because now you can figure out one, what happened, so you can give closure, and two, make sure it doesn't happen again.
00:48:42
>> Right. >> And help to make sure that doesn't happen again. >> That's the big part. If you can help
00:48:46
figure that out, maybe that same serial killer won't bring another one of these people to your door.
00:48:51
>> Exactly. >> And that is exactly what motivates Scarpetta. It's not just Justice is for the living, it's not for
00:48:58
the dead. The dead, it doesn't matter anymore. >> Exactly. >> left behind, not only do they need to
00:49:04
have some peace of mind that there was a price to pay for this unbelievable, unforgivable thing someone did, but also
00:49:10
that you're not going to give that person a chance to do it again. >> Exactly. >> So it's a very big responsibility when
00:49:17
that you walk in that room with that body on the table, and you want it to tell you the truth about what what's
00:49:22
going on there. >> Absolutely. And make it mean something. >> Yeah. And speaking of autopsies, this is
00:49:29
a little more lighthearted of a moment from it, but another thing that I found so relatable in the memoir,
00:49:35
uh, was when Dr. Fierro said that there should be a place on a death certificate
00:49:39
that says was this death stupid, yes or no. I was like, yep, I've I've felt that
00:49:45
exact same way before. And I had to ask, was there any moment in any kind of death investigation that
00:49:52
you were a part of even peripherally that you were like what was the decision-making here? Like
00:49:57
what led to this? >> Yes, all the time and and I don't know if you've had this you know where you
00:50:03
see something and it just doesn't make sense. >> Yeah. >> And and and with every case
00:50:08
um there's always something that no one was ever able to interpret you know like
00:50:13
they found something outside in the grass or they found a symbol written on a body and and did the bad person do it
00:50:19
or did the did the victim do it? I mean what does that mean? There's so many things like that but you so much of it
00:50:25
even when it's stupid like I and you never forget some of these cases but I remember there was this young boy he's
00:50:31
probably I don't know maybe 15 or 16 in his you know his overalls out in the country and he's riding in the back of a
00:50:39
pickup truck and he's got a crush on a girl so he's got a little can of Right Guard deodorant in his pocket in his
00:50:46
coat pocket. I guess he wants to make sure he smells nice around her. I don't know.
00:50:50
But but he had you know it was all it was dented because of what happened to him but he's roaring around and he
00:50:55
decides it's a good idea to stand up in the back of the pickup truck right at the same time they go under a bridge.
00:51:01
>> Oh man. >> That's the end of that. >> Yeah. >> And and so but now that that is like
00:51:07
that you would check the stupid box but at the same time I could smell it was actually it wasn't
00:51:14
it was Old Spice that Old Spice deodorant and I could smell it. >> Mhm. >> And here he is on this table and here's
00:51:21
his little dented can of deodorant and as stupid as it was how sad sad sad that and I think of his poor family. And so
00:51:29
you know I and these things they never your first time of seeing some of this stuff
00:51:36
you just never forget it. I remember the names of some of these people from long
00:51:39
ago. >> Yeah. >> Cuz it must just be so strange to be so close to like the last act that somebody
00:51:46
did. Like that boy putting on his deodorant. You know that's the one of the very last things he did.
00:51:51
>> It's super intimate. >> And this person is obviously dead on a table, but that makes them so alive in
00:51:56
your head. That's got to be strange to reconcile. >> Yes, it gives you a peep hole into their
00:52:03
to their inner being for one moment. And I and I may have I may have told you this story before, but a similar thing
00:52:08
was a woman who'd gotten hit by a car at 3:00 in the morning walking home from the bar. And when I was in the morgue
00:52:13
the next morning the state trooper was going through her stuff and in her wallet was fortune from a fortune
00:52:19
cookie. And it said, "You will soon have an encounter that will change the course
00:52:23
of your life." >> Wow. >> And it was not wrong. Maybe she went to that bar looking for
00:52:29
that encounter, but the encounter she got was two headlights. >> Right. >> Oh, that's awful.
00:52:34
>> That would >> And and nobody knew whether to laugh or cry. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? But for a moment
00:52:39
you got a peep hole into her longing for something. That's so sad. >> Yeah. >> But they but people those they need us
00:52:48
to be there to tell those stories. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And to say you care enough to try to
00:52:54
know what they felt. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Well, speaking of that kind of personal
00:52:57
connection, you touched heavily on the South Side Strangler in the memoir, Timothy Wilson Spencer. Now, you had met
00:53:04
Dr. Susan Hellams who was one of his victims. And I wonder, did having a personal encounter with a victim like
00:53:11
that change anything about writing for you about writing these mysteries? >> Postmortem was hard to write because it
00:53:18
was inspired by the the killings there. And a lot of people don't want you to write about something
00:53:25
that is inspired by something real because it's so painful. Now, the cases that the victims in Postmortem, none of
00:53:32
the details have anything to do with what happened with the real people. I don't I don't exploit their their
00:53:37
privacy and or even know much about it cuz Marcella did not let anyone look at the records, and I was never I never saw
00:53:44
the autopsies, and I didn't go to the scenes. I only went to the scenes after the fact when I'd park outside with the
00:53:50
homicide detective, and we would be looking around at the the house with all the lights out in the window, and
00:53:56
just sort of like in the TV show, like Scarpetta and Marino, you know, they're talking about what the killer did and
00:54:02
what happened, and they're they're they're trying to reconstruct it while they're parked outside that house.
00:54:06
>> Mhm. >> But but, you know, and Susan Ellams, I'm I'm almost positive that's who I saw who
00:54:12
smiled at me at a brain cutting at the medical college, and it's hard, very hard, because a part of you
00:54:20
says maybe I shouldn't talk about this at all. But then again, you're not doing justice to that victim
00:54:26
if you don't tell anybody what happened to her. >> Exactly. >> Right. >> And I don't know. I don't regret telling
00:54:31
that story, and it it but it was I I try to be very careful in my work that I don't want to exploit real things that
00:54:37
have happened to people. I couldn't write Literally, ironically, my book, my memoir called true crime, and that's the
00:54:43
one thing I wouldn't want to write. >> Mhm. >> I don't want to do that. I don't want to
00:54:47
open up all that with people who have just been through that. >> It takes a very special person to be
00:54:51
able to do that. It was hard enough doing it with Jack the Ripper, but everybody been dead for over 100 years.
00:54:57
>> That's typically the kind of case that we cover. Like Elena loves to cover the
00:55:00
1800s kind of cases, cuz it does make it a little, you know, to be further removed is is
00:55:06
better sometimes. >> And I think it's honestly super interesting older cases, like Jack the
00:55:11
Ripper and things, cuz how they solved any cases back then, I'm always shocked to buy. So, I think it's
00:55:17
a a very interesting thing to tell is to talk about before DNA, before fingerprints, before light, like before
00:55:26
electricity, and they just had like, you know, a little single lantern lit in the
00:55:30
corner on a dark street. Like, how did they solve anything? >> I love it, every bit of it. It's so much
00:55:36
fun. And with the Ripper case all that that you're saying you have to keep in mind. So, for example, if I
00:55:42
bought and I have one sitting in a box over here, an antique bull's-eye lantern that goes back to the period that the
00:55:48
cops were carrying. And I'd put a candle in it to see what a fire would it look like at at out of my
00:55:54
porch you know at night. And all it would really do is you get this kind of yellowish reddish glow in the
00:56:01
real um thick lens. And I thought all you're doing is putting a laser dot on you.
00:56:06
>> Yeah. That's it. >> That was a You're just showing everybody that you're You're here.
00:56:12
>> You're You're practicing but the laser dot's pointed at you so that all the criminals could see where the cop was.
00:56:18
But it makes you realize how the heck they could see anything out on the streets that night when the Ripper was
00:56:23
killing these people. There were no streetlights. There might have been some gas lanterns here and there. There I
00:56:28
mean there were these bull's-eye lanterns and that was about it. But you know there's also the theory and I
00:56:33
suspect this is true. I would imagine that back in the the Victorian era, the 1800s
00:56:38
and even the early um 20th century that people's eyes were better adapted to look at dark darkness
00:56:46
more than we are today. >> Because they had to. It's just you know, adaptation. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:56:51
>> They didn't have Everywhere we go there are lights now. We are almost overlit.
00:56:56
>> Yeah, cuz when we get in the dark it's like >> We have light pollution. You can't see
00:56:59
the stars anymore. >> I know. It makes me sad. >> It is sad. >> And we're always staring at our phones
00:57:04
too see blue lights. >> Oh yeah. We're ruining our eyes. Screens everywhere. >> Well, and I think it's really
00:57:10
fascinating with the Jack the Ripper case too. On the other side of it that he was able to be so precise with some
00:57:17
of his >> In the darkness like that. >> with some of the >> You know we should do we should do a We
00:57:23
should do one of your shows sometime on the Ripper cuz that is a huge story. But
00:57:27
let me just tell you this. If there was nothing precise about what he did. It's people think it was, but he was
00:57:34
slash and grab. What I'll tell you what I think he did based on everything I've seen and what
00:57:40
snippets of autopsy reports are left and a few scene photographs and what have you is that I'm quite certain that even
00:57:46
if he approached the person that the sex worker which is what most of the victims
00:57:52
were when he didn't he didn't attack him then. He did it from the rear. >> Oh, yeah.
00:57:57
>> find them and did this at their throat. They went down on the ground and then he
00:58:01
would go around and he would cut through their clothing and start and cut through
00:58:06
that the abdomen and grab out the intestines and fling them out of the way and and take that they did escalated
00:58:12
escalated and what the police never figured out which is really obvious if you do this research is that the Ripper
00:58:18
got more and more violent. First it was cutting the throat. Then it was putting an incision down the middle.
00:58:25
>> Mhm. >> Then it was pulling things out and throwing them. Then Mary Kelly who was I
00:58:29
don't know if five or six or seven, I don't remember which number, but she was flayed to the bone.
00:58:35
And he took her heart with her. >> Mhm. >> And I mean he even took her face off.
00:58:39
>> Oh, yeah. >> And that so and then what happens what a coincidence they start finding people
00:58:45
who are dismembered. >> Mhm. >> Well, wouldn't you expect it to escalate to that?
00:58:49
>> That's the thing. It's like you don't end with that kind of escalation. >> But but he that the dismemberment stuff
00:58:55
was more calculated because I he took those bodies somewhere. >> Mhm. >> He had these little rat holes bolt holes
00:59:01
where hovels where in Whitechapel and all over the place. And and then he would spend time with the body before he
00:59:08
wrapped it up in something and even put pieces of of a newspaper in it to >> Yeah.
00:59:13
>> He was always he was the master of red herrings and and >> Oh, yeah. >> fake clues.
00:59:17
>> Yep. Mhm. >> But but he was just violent is what he was. He was a coward. He picked on people who
00:59:23
were absolutely defenseless. They were drunk. It was late at night. They were wearing everything they own and nobody
00:59:28
cared. Nobody gave a rat's ass about them. I mean >> And that's the thing, he knew they
00:59:33
wouldn't be as investigated or >> If this had been women coming out of the theater in the West End, it'd be a
00:59:38
different story, yo. >> It might be solved. >> It would be solved. It would be. >> It would be honest.
00:59:42
>> have been solved if some of the people around Sickert might have been honest about him. I do believe that his wife,
00:59:49
Ellen, at the time, hit the wife he had at the time, I believe she knew what he was doing.
00:59:53
>> Oh, damn. >> Interesting. >> She said she was leaving him because when she filed for divorce because of
00:59:58
those women yet oddly there's never been any proof that he ever had an affair with anybody.
01:00:04
>> Interesting. >> proof that he ever had sex with anybody. >> Oh. >> So, I'm not sure he was capable of it
01:00:10
because of his early surgeries on his either his genitals or something. I mean, his southern hemisphere is all we
01:00:16
know. He had a fistula. But the point is that is really it's just no different than the kind of
01:00:23
cases we have today except that that killer was not like anybody >> No. >> else. And and there's been nobody like
01:00:31
Walter Sickert. And I can see why he got away with it. And I don't care what anybody says, I totally believe he did
01:00:36
it. There's up there on the wall staring at you right now above >> Oh, damn. >> a police notice a police notice. That's
01:00:44
original. There's only like three of them in >> Wow. >> that they put up when these murders were
01:00:49
going on in London. So >> incredible. >> But yeah, I mean all of this is important to know because
01:00:57
it might be it might prevent something. And if I wish that I think back in the Victorian era in particular people just
01:01:03
didn't think that someone educated, handsome, and spoke seven languages, and was an actor and an artist could
01:01:08
possibly be a violent psychopath. >> That was just unheard of. >> Right. Like unthinkable.
01:01:14
>> Now we know it could be >> Now we know. >> Yeah. We definitely know now. And that's
01:01:18
the thing, when the when the DNA came out recently and everybody's like, "Oh, they figured out who it was." I was
01:01:23
like, "No, they didn't." Everybody who was messaging us I was like, "No, they didn't."
01:01:28
>> It is It is not true that DNA that is not correct. >> is ridiculous. It's mitochondrial DNA.
01:01:35
We need to have you back. We need to have you back for a full-blown Jack the Ripper episode because we need to do a
01:01:40
follow-up on our own series actually. Yeah, we do. So, we'd love to have you for that. We
01:01:45
would love to have you for that. >> Anytime, you just let me know. I'm I'm you consider me your
01:01:50
my your friend of the family here. >> I love that. >> I'm part of the Morbid family.
01:01:55
>> You absolutely are. And kind of like switching gears for a second just back to the Scarpetta TV
01:02:01
show cuz I am just like over the moon for it. >> I'm so glad. >> It's incredible. I
01:02:07
>> them they'll be they will love to hear that you love it. >> I love and I was >> them know today.
01:02:12
>> Oh, I love that because I've been waiting for this. Like I as soon as I started reading the Scarpetta series
01:02:19
which was I mean, I think I was like >> You were probably >> I think I was like baby
01:02:24
>> 12 or 13 >> Yeah, like 12 I think cuz my grandmother used to read them, my mom used to read
01:02:29
them. >> Elena has been talking to me about these books for my entire life and I'm 30.
01:02:35
>> Yeah, I was or almost 30. >> I was hooked immediately and so it became like a present that everyone
01:02:40
would get me for like birthdays. It was like the next book in the series came so
01:02:44
my husband took that up every year he'll get me the next book. >> I just read Postmortem Postmortem for
01:02:49
the first time and I am absolutely in in it now. Like I can't wait to read the next one.
01:02:55
So, this >> you. I I really appreciate that. >> And the series has really like hit. Like
01:03:02
it hit the notes that I was like, "Oh." And Nicole Kidman's amazing, Jamie Lee Curtis like Bobby as Marino like
01:03:10
>> Isn't he perfect? >> Chef's kiss. Like he is >> his son playing the younger Marino is
01:03:14
perfect. >> it. I can't believe you were able to do that. >> I didn't do it. I mean, Jamie and and
01:03:21
the and Blumhouse, the producers, and and of course the more huge people we've got three Oscar winners in this show.
01:03:28
Jamie, Nicole, and Ariana DeBose. I mean, who plays Lucy. It's it's it's just an embarrassment of riches and
01:03:35
like I say to them I'm now I'm surrounded by some of the most talented people in the world right now that I
01:03:41
have the privilege to work with and I'm hoping it teaches me a few tricks. I actually think it's making me a better
01:03:46
writer because when you watch how when you read scripts and more scripts and you watch how they do all this and and
01:03:53
when I'm writing now I'll go, is there a way you can show this more dramatically
01:03:58
and not tell it so much through narrative? I mean, it's and for when I when I first started getting into all
01:04:03
this, to be honest with you, threw me for a loop a little bit. Because I was seeing all that and reading all this and
01:04:09
then I'm down trying to do my old thing and for a while I'd have to go, okay, this feels different right now. I'm I'm
01:04:14
trying to It's like listening to someone else's music. Back to composing your own. But
01:04:20
ultimately I'm I'm really excited about it because I'm I feel like I'm learning some new
01:04:25
tricks by watching what they're doing and trying to get better at what I'm doing. It's it's it's It's hard work,
01:04:31
but it's fun and it's a big responsibility, but I'm thrilled that you all that you both that you like it
01:04:36
and I will let I'm going to send a note to everybody and tell them that Morbid likes it cuz that means that they will
01:04:43
appreciate that. >> It is it is hit for an adaptation like 100%. I love it. >> Thank you.
01:04:51
>> And just to just to wrap up cuz I know we've kept you a while. But >> Well, that's all. We could talk for
01:04:57
weeks. >> I could just sit here and talk to you forever, but I have to ask you just as
01:05:01
somebody who also is like just starting out writing books and like I'm excited about it, but I'm always shocked when
01:05:08
anybody wants to read one of my books. Like when you gave me that incredible blurb for The Butcher Legacy,
01:05:14
like, knock me over with a feather. I've been talking about it for months, I think, at this point.
01:05:19
>> do it, Scarpetta did it. And, by the way, I don't know where she is half the time. She's probably hanging out in your
01:05:24
world now. >> Honestly, even better. And, giving me permission to kind of >> be with Nicole Kidman, let's be honest.
01:05:31
>> I have to say >> Who wouldn't? >> I was going to say. >> Well, send her home. Send her home when
01:05:35
you're finished shooting, please. >> Who wouldn't love to be with Nicole Kidman?
01:05:38
>> No, no kidding. >> But, I have to ask, was there any point during the beginning of this that you
01:05:45
felt like this would be your career? Like, you were going to have this legendary career? Was there any moment
01:05:50
where you were like, "You know what? I think I'm going to be huge." >> When things got really big in the early
01:05:55
'90s, you know, back in the Stone Age, um, but >> The best time. >> was probably the biggest thing out there
01:06:02
in the in most of the '90s. >> Yeah. >> And then, J.K. Rowling had the nerve to come along, whenever that was, and I
01:06:08
mean, who the hell does she think she is, coming along and >> That's a great question.
01:06:11
>> than me. Um, but anyway, >> stop it. Who the hell does she think she is? >> Only I had called from Potter's Field,
01:06:17
from Harry Potter's Field. >> Oh, there you go. >> a lot more books. But, anyway,
01:06:22
I never knew, I never imagined that it would all become so big. But, then I learned another lesson,
01:06:29
which is not a fun one. I At the time it got so big, I I'd always thought it would stay that way.
01:06:35
>> Mhm. >> I never knew that you have to keep reinventing yourself. That that things
01:06:40
come and go, and you go through generations of people who have read something, and maybe now the newer
01:06:45
generation's not familiar, and I It's It's not that my work hasn't done well, it's that I thought it would always be
01:06:52
exactly the way it was >> Yeah. >> when it started, when And then, suddenly now you have Then you had CSI came
01:06:57
along, and all these shows, and, um, other people Lots and lots of people writing books, and it caused me to have
01:07:03
to pay more attention to what I'm doing, and realize that never Why don't rest on
01:07:09
my laurels anyway, but but don't ever Oh, yeah. Never never never never think that you've arrived that you don't have
01:07:14
to try as hard. >> Mhm. That's a great lesson to learn. >> definitely learned that because I could
01:07:20
see that uh you you have to keep this keep up the same things you've always been doing or it won't work. It will
01:07:25
stop working after a while. >> Yeah. It's true. And I think the last thing we just wanted to ask you was what
01:07:31
do you hope most people take away from True Crime a Memoir? >> That there's redemption in life. That
01:07:37
things can start out badly and they can end up beautifully and that there that you can be given chances that you never
01:07:43
thought you would get and and that there are so many gifts if you just will look
01:07:47
and never stop being grateful. >> Yes. >> Love and gratitude. Love and gratitude.
01:07:51
Don't forget those and don't give up. And failure is not a measure of your worth because if it were I wouldn't be
01:07:57
talking to you right now. I've had more failures and I've always learned more from them than my successes.
01:08:03
>> Oh, so true. >> I love that. >> That's perfect. >> And honestly, I think everyone who reads
01:08:07
that book is going to walk away with all of that cuz I know I did. >> Absolutely. 100%.
01:08:13
>> Big hugs to you guys. I love you both. Always happy to talk to you. And let's
01:08:16
do it again soon. >> Yes, we love you. Thank you so much for your time. And also just before you leave, thank
01:08:22
you so much for letting me mention Scarpetta in The Butcher Legacy. That was huge.
01:08:27
>> let you do it. You did it. >> Or thank Scarpetta for letting me send along a word.
01:08:32
>> And by and large, I I pretty much do what she tells me to do. >> I love that. I really appreciate that.
01:08:37
>> She picked you. What can I say? >> Oh. I'll take it. I will take it. >> Thank you again, Patricia. Thank you so
01:08:43
much, Patricia. You're the best. Good to see you. >> Great to see you both. >> Wasn't that just the best?
01:08:50
>> Honestly, every time. >> Every >> Every single >> time. >> I will and I'll never get over talking
01:08:57
to Patricia Cornwell at all because But, it's just been my entire life that I've been
01:09:02
reading her books, so we >> got finished with that and I'm like, "No, like stop being so inspiring,
01:09:07
queen." >> Truly. >> Queen Patricia. >> Queen Patricia. >> Truly queen Patricia.
01:09:12
>> I realized that we didn't have her say the keep it weird with us. >> I know, we didn't.
01:09:16
>> all in unison say it together, okay? Guys, we love you. We hope you keep listening.
01:09:23
>> And we hope you >> keep it weird. >> wasn't it? >> Yeah. >> But, I'm sorry that you didn't join us
01:09:30
in unison. >> Yeah, and keep it as weird as Patricia. >> I mean, you better because that's a good
01:09:35
weird. >> Period. >> It is. >> Mhm.