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This summer, we're keeping it cool and of course keeping it weird with the brand new Morbid Crimson Summer
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Collection. We're excited to share with you a limited time tea, hoodie, and canshaped glass. All perfect for those
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hot summer days and cool nights. We are truly obsessed with the elegant design and the Morbid logo on the sleeve. I
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love a logo on a sleeve. Get yours today at wondershop.com/morbid before it's too late. Hey weirdos. I'm
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Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Yay. Yay. Morbido. Um, the first big news is that Ash has finally come over
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to the side of wanting ball and getting annoyed when people now she understands why it's annoying when people go, "Can
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you just let me have my summer?" >> I know. I'll kill them. >> Um, yeah, she's there now. I am.
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>> I took Dolores out, you know, my dog. I took Dolores out the other morning and
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it was so it was like 8:00 in the morning and it was so [ __ ] hot out already and I said, "You know what? To
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hell with this." >> Yeah. >> I just want I want to wear a sweatshirt comfortably. I want to wear my
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>> I have So Oh, shut your [ __ ] face over there with the cozy fall cooking. I started ordering new Halloween
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decorations. I just want to decorate now. I want my house. It fall is just cozy and I want to be cozy. I'm not
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cozy. I'm sweaty and I'm tired of being sweaty. And she told me this and the first thing I said is now picture
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someone saying just let me have my summer. Summer just started. And how do you feel?
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>> I said I'll kill them. >> And she literally said I'll kill them. I'll kill them. And I said I love when
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that happens. >> I love when when somebody else gets it. Oh, I just want it. so bad. And I want
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my like pumpkin drinks. This summer has been too hot, too muddy, >> too [ __ ] hot.
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>> The bugs are huge. I don't know why. >> No, I opened my slider yesterday. I wish
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this was visual just for this one moment. There had to be a bug with wings, mind you.
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>> 4 in long and 4 in thick. >> What's going on there? >> No, I don't. It's something hellacious.
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>> Something hellacious going on. They're from the Hellmouth. I saw um we went to
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the uh Ghost show in Baltimore, John and I. >> Uh >> have we recorded since then?
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>> I don't think we have. Um it was [ __ ] amazing. >> Yay. >> Um I'm not going to say anything to give
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anything away. You got a cool sweatshirt. >> Yeah, I did get I got a Batwing sweatshirt.
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>> Yeah, that's fun. >> Um I got the girls some things. >> Oh, you did? >> Of course.
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>> I didn't even see. >> Uh I met some listeners there. Um that was fun and cool.
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>> I love that. And it was funny because one listen uh one listener came up like
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while we were at our seats and was like hey and like that was like oh my god I listen to the podcast and I was like
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girl >> I noticed you when you walked in the arena cuz she was just wearing like you
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know like when ghost concerts everybody's like dressed up like you know in wild ways cool ways it's really
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fun to people watch and like participate and this girl had walked in and I was like wow she just looks phenomenal like
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I just like it was one of those things where you're just like wow like like you're just like [ __ ]
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>> Like I just happened to notice her when she walked in. She had like really pretty hair and I was like wow.
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>> And so I had said to John I was like wow she looks like amazing. I just like noticed her and she was the one who came
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up and was like I listened to the podcast so I was like girl I noticed you the second you walked in the most
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wholesome experience. >> Stunning everywhere they go >> literally cuz I eyes went right to her.
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>> That's a serve. >> Um but it was like a lot of fun. And the the reason I'm saying this is because in
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Baltimore the when I got off the train, I immediately saw one of those lantern flies that like I think like
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Pennsylvania got infested with for a little while. They're invasive, I'm pretty sure. Like they go crazy. E
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>> um they're kind of cool looking though. I don't want to be in invaded by them.
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>> I don't want to be invaded period. So it's like so like I'm not here to tell you like oh it's really cool that
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you get attacked by lantern flies every year. >> Wasn't um Doug Bradley was talking about
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on our ghost episode. >> It was actually I don't know if it got >> if it got cut from like the final I'm
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not sure how much of the conversation was in there. Um, but when we had Tobias on, I think it was like a full circle
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moment because when we had Tobias on and we brought Doug on, >> they were talking about I think Tobias
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brought up actually like the lantern flies and how Yeah, they're like really pretty.
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>> Oh, they're pretty. Yeah, >> but they're big. >> Yeah. >> And I think Tobias had brought up the
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lantern flies and how terrified he is and like needs therapy for bugs. >> I get it. And so and they were talking
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about how they like invade and I think it was Doug's wife Steph who was like actually I think they're really pretty
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like I don't care. And I was like I get it. >> They're bigger than a quarter. >> They're huge.
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>> That's [ __ ] up. >> They're really pretty though. >> They are pretty. >> And I felt like it was such a full
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circle moment that I was going to a show a ghost show in Baltimore and the first
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thing I saw was that lantern fly that we had talked about on the episode. >> But then did it make you feel like you
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were ready for fall? >> Yeah. like did it remind you that you were ready for fall a little bit? But um
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>> but for everybody that we met at the show, John and I, like that was so awesome and and how [ __ ] cool was
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that? >> It's always fun to meet you guys in the wild. >> It was especially at stuff like that cuz
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then we're all excited about it together and it's really fun. >> That's cool. >> Uh the show was so good. I'm telling
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you, >> that makes me want to go to a concert. >> It's so good. Uh but yeah, that was a
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lot of fun. and lantern flies and bugs and let's get falling, >> please. >> I'm ready. I'm ready for it.
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>> How many days until fall? >> I was like, what? >> 70. >> That's not that much.
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>> 70 is a lot. >> That's not That's until official fall. Fact. We get fall well before official
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fall. So, >> not the last couple years, though. >> We get it. The the the uh the weather
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starts to change. >> Yeah, she'll change, >> you So, we'll get that little crispness.
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>> I just need to carve a pumpkin. >> As soon as September 1st hits, it's fall. >> I mean, yeah. In my heart.
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>> So, like that's all I'm looking forward to. >> Yeah. >> September 1st. >> Back to school. Back to school is like
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>> September 1st hits. Spooky season. Fall >> apples. Like, let's go. I'm all right. That's
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all I'm looking for is September 1st. >> I just need to get through this. I'm in
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I'm in a a bad state. I constantly say, and don't worry, we'll get into the uh thing. I just
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>> It'll be fine. >> Everybody will be cool. Um I have like reverse seasonal depression, and I'm not
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even joking about that. Like I I know like it's not a joke. I'm not joking. I'm literally say I'm the most unhappy
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in the summer. Like it just doesn't >> No, I looked at Drew yesterday for me cuz Drew has like seasonal effective
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disorder like in the winter. And I looked at him and I was like, you know how Alena says that? I was like I always
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like I was always like, "Do you really?" >> Yeah. I felt like that yesterday. >> Like yesterday I was like, "Okay, I'm
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all like I feel I feel upset in my heart." >> I don't like it in the rest of the year.
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>> Yeah. >> The only good thing about summer is that the kids are home. >> Yeah, that is good.
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>> That's literally the only thing that keeps me from like fully diagnosing myself with
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>> summer sadness. >> Yeah. >> Uh cuz then they're around and I'm like, "Oh, well, this is
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>> they give you happiness." Yeah, that's true. They give me a lot of happiness.
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So, that's like the only thing that keeps me like, "Yay!" >> Oh, but god, let's go fall.
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>> Yeah, let's go fall. I'm ready. >> Still don't know what the [ __ ] to wear. >> No, that's the other thing. I don't like
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summer clothes. >> Everything is sticky. >> Um, go buy the paperback version of The
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Butcher Game. >> Put it in your pocket. >> Put it in your rainy day. >> Pre-order that [ __ ] You can do it.
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>> You should do it. Uh, it's it's pretty great. I think I really like the book and paperbacks rock.
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>> I like paperbacks personally a lot. Yeah. And it'll prepare you for who knows what, you know, things
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>> for things and stuff. >> Uh so let's get into today's episode. We should. >> Um this is
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one that is it was just like super interesting to me, especially um like the trial and imprisonment
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in this case is very interesting. There's a lot of pieces that make it go like holy [ __ ]
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>> All right. Um, and then this the the actual crimes are so like weird and random.
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>> Yeah. >> And [ __ ] up that you're just like, "Okay." Uh, but we're gonna be talking
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about Carol Chesman, the red light bandit. >> The red light bandit. I love a bandit
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story. >> That's the thing. Whenever it's the something bandit, I'm in. That's great.
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>> Like, let's let's learn about it. >> Yeah. So, in early 1948, Los Angeles couples were absolutely terrorized by a
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series of robberies, and there was like car theft involved, all that stuff. And this was committed by a criminal who the
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press of course dubbed the Red Light Bandit. >> The Red Light Bandit is back at it
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again. More on the news at 5. >> That's a literal rip from a news station from 1948.
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>> Yeah, >> I know. Crazy that we were able to do that. Uh, but the red light bandit was
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so called that because they used a red light on top of their car to flag down victims, like act like a police officer
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essentially. >> Oh, see, I thought they were traffic lights. >> Yes, >> me too. >> I thought at red lights they were
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seizing the opportunity and I said, "Wow, that's >> No, >> that's confidence." >> I also thought that, too, cuz I was
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like, "Whoa, you don't have a lot of time at a red light usually." >> Uh, but no, it was like a red light on
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their car. >> Okay. Fortunately, the Bandits crime spree was quickly cut short when police
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arrested Carol Chesman, a Los Angeles resident with a criminal history that went way back teen years. Yeah, Carol.
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>> Oh. >> Um, and it's Carol K. Uh, C A R Y L. >> Oh, that's how you spell it. >> And you said to his teen years. Okay.
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Yeah. >> Uh, Carol Whittier Chesman was born on May 27th, 1921 in St. Joseph, Michigan.
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He was born to Surl and Halley Chesman. Within 6 months of his birth, the family
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uh moved from Miss Michigan to Glendale, California, which must be like a pretty
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big change. >> Yeah, I would think so. >> Um although his parents spelled his name
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the traditional way actually uh C A R O L. >> He actually later changed the spelling.
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Basically, he wanted to avoid like you know the common what he like what was considered like the female way of
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spelling it at the time. Because remember this is >> the 40s. >> The 40s. Uh so I mean back then even
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earlier. >> Yeah. Cuz he didn't want to be confused like >> Yeah. >> You know when somebody just sees their
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name, >> right? >> That's his deal. >> Uh so Carol Chesman's biography that he wrote actually that he had a part in
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>> biography. Um, it has been it's been reported from a variety of sources, but there are a lot of inconsistencies
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between his reports of his childhood and the narratives reported from independent
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sources. >> Okay. >> Um, he tends to uh romanticize a lot of his life. >> All right.
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>> And I say that because there's like actual reports and evidence that will like dispute a lot of it. Um what is
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apparent from both sources is that Chesman's early life was definitely marked by a lot of struggle and like
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tragedy I would say. Um he was born just before the onset of the Great Depression.
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>> Yeah. >> Which was 1929. Um his father Surl really struggled to maintain a stable
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job and to care for the family. The financial struggle struggles definitely raised significantly in 1930 when Halley
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Chesman was actually in a really bad car accident and became paralyzed from the waist down.
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>> Oh my goodness. >> Really bad. >> Oh, that's awful. >> Um, obviously there was a ton of
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hospital bills from this accident and she had ongoing care now. She was paralyzed from the waist down, right?
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Um, so it became like a seriously crushing weight on the family like financially and especially Surl who
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really wanted to be able to take care of this stuff and he really struggled to get out of this weight. Um, during
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Carol's childhood actually his father tried a few time like a couple times I believe to unsuccessfully end his own
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life. >> Oh, that's sad. And it definitely affected Carol. >> Yeah. How could it not? Um although his
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mother's accident and the paralysis were the focus of a lot of his younger years,
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Carol himself also struggled with a lot of physical ailments as a child. Um he had you know he had some health problems
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like asthma and pneumonia which are serious but they you know are ones that are a little more common among children.
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Uh others were more serious like he had encphilitis at one point which is swelling of the brain. Yeah. Um he had
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dtheria, a severe bacterial infection of the nose and throat. And uh he had a lot
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of times where he required a lot of hospitalizations. Um and of course this put another
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financial strain on the family's whole entire financial deal. >> Yeah. >> Uh despite all of this, Carol reported
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having a pretty decent childhood. Um in his memoir, he wrote, "Weeks and vacation time, the three had great fun
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together, meaning his parents and him." >> Oh, that's nice. He said, "There were
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trips to the ocean where with tiny pale and shovel I discovered wonders in the sand."
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>> Oh, one thing about Carol is he has nice pros. When he writes, he can he can write. He's a writer.
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>> Um, it's impossible to know how frequently this actually happened in his childhood or like whether they did have
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great fun together, you know? But he repeatedly >> said this, but then he would also
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undermine that narrative in psychiatric interviews after he was arrested. Okay, >> he really plays both sides of the fence
00:14:22
here. >> Yeah. Uh, according to Chesman, his childhood memories were actually largely
00:14:27
painful and frustrating. This is what he said later. Because his ailments frequently quote disrupted his childhood
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and left him feeling weak and ashamed, as did taunts from his playmates. >> Now, his accounts of his relationship
00:14:39
with his father also kind of contradict one another depending on when they were told.
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>> Okay. So in his published memoirs, his early memories of his father are pretty
00:14:49
positive, but he appears less nostalgic about his father than he was about his mother, which I feel like happens a lot,
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especially for that time period. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Um, in truth, Sirill Chesman was pretty
00:15:02
generally a mildmannered man, you know, >> who, whether fair or not, struggled a
00:15:07
lot with his feelings of failure and a poor sense of selfworth that left him feeling very depressed a lot of the
00:15:13
time, very despondent. Um he also felt like he like internalized his son's ailments as like failure on his part
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because his son was seen as like frail. >> That's sad. >> Um and that whole, you know, self sense
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of failure kind of led him to harbor feelings of resentment for Carol as well. >> Uh on one occasion
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where his father had wrongly apparently believed that he had intentionally hurt his own mother, uh Carol claimed that
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his father repeatedly beat him with a bullhip. Oh, but >> it is difficult to know whether that is
00:15:49
a true thing that happened or whether it was added into the memoir on Carol's part for like effect.
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>> Okay. >> Because again, you just can't take everything he says as true. >> Yeah.
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>> And he contradicts a lot of his own statements. >> Yeah. >> But that I mean that sounds
00:16:04
unfortunately very of the time. >> It also just sounds like he had a complicated childhood.
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>> That's what it feels like. No matter like what >> no matter what is true and what isn't.
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>> Yeah. What definitely happened or not [ __ ] was complicated. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's important to note that like many
00:16:21
families especially at that time sir and hi Chesman were very religious people who imparted their strong religious
00:16:29
beliefs on their son as well. um this wasn't really in this case consequential in and of itself but um they were also
00:16:39
applied in the context of illness and disability. So it became a really powerful source of shame.
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>> Okay. >> Uh for example like when he was initially diagnosed with severe asthma,
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Halley Chesman's approach was be brave and pray to God to be cured. >> Oh yeah. Of course, he was not cured
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just by praying and being brave. Um, so naturally, he felt that he was unworthy of God's love and attention because he
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was not cured through that. >> That's >> which was a notion that he would come back to several times in the years that
00:17:16
followed. And honestly, it was kind of like it was just like reinforcing and like eventually kind of justifying his
00:17:24
feelings of shame and like feelings of being frail and like unworthy. >> Yeah. >> And obviously it's like he was a kid
00:17:32
when he was learning this stuff. So that stuff does become internalized. You know, it does,
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>> I assume. Now, according to Carol Chesman, it was those feelings of guilt and shame that ultimately led him to
00:17:43
commit his first crime, which also is obviously a very convenient way to describe why he started a life of crime,
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which is why you need to just be like, "Okay." >> Uh, when Carol was around 14 years old,
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he returned home one afternoon, and this is >> horrible. If this is the if this is
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really what happened, this is a horrible thing that happened. Okay. He returned home one afternoon to find his father
00:18:06
attempting to end his own life by putting his head in the oven. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Yeah. Obviously very distraught. Um and
00:18:14
thinking that the financial instability of the family had led to this and that he believed he was a partially a drain
00:18:22
on those financial >> Yeah. >> situation. He said he resolved to do whatever he could to help support the
00:18:29
family after this. In this case, that meant stealing food from the local grocery store to help feed the family.
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>> Oh, which is devastating. >> Yeah, that's just sad that he felt that much pressure. In his biography, Cell
00:18:42
2455 death row, which Oh, >> yeah. >> Chesman describes taking up his old paper route as a guise for going from
00:18:50
one store to another where he stole small amounts of food from loading docks. >> Okay. Carol said he quote took no
00:18:58
pleasure in the success of his deception or in having become a sneak thief, but for the first time in his life, he was
00:19:04
actually helping his family and at a time when it was really needed the most, which you know, so it seemed like it
00:19:11
kind of made the behavior permissible. >> Yeah. But also it kind of gave him the
00:19:15
validation that he was looking for from his parents. >> O, that's very I you were 100% correct
00:19:22
in saying it was a very complicated situation. Definitely later in life, he'd suggest that his slide into
00:19:28
criminality had been the result of unforeseeable circumstances and uncontrollable psychological urges that
00:19:34
are well behind his beyond his control. The truth though is, I would say, much messier and more complicated than he
00:19:41
would ever write in his own memoirs. In reality, um, David Ruth wrote, and we, um, we have the source for this in our
00:19:50
notes. Um, adult betrayal and mistreatment by authorities fueled his already simmering rage. For all his
00:19:57
sentimentality and self-ingrandisement, Chesman echoed the experts explanation of many criminal careers. Basically, a
00:20:05
mix of biological, social, and environmental circumstances shaped him into a who he eventually became.
00:20:12
>> Yeah. And there were a lot of opportunities for him to change course, but he just simply chose to go down this
00:20:19
path. >> Okay? >> Like he really had a lot of opportunities to go down another path
00:20:22
and he didn't choose that. And that's sad. Years later, in an analysis of various psychiatric examinations and
00:20:28
interviews with those who knew Chesman as a child would collectively kind of indicate that he probably would have
00:20:35
qualified for one or more psychiatric diagnosis. Um after he was arrested when he was 18 years old, a psychiatrist
00:20:42
wrote that Carol's quote boastfulness is compensation for underlying feelings of
00:20:47
insecurity and inadequacy. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Um in fact, it seems as though his
00:20:52
attitude and poor interpersonal skills were responsible for a lot of the problems that started developing in
00:20:57
childhood. According to one classmate, Carol was quote very argumentative in class. He always talked way over
00:21:04
people's heads and he had a superior attitude towards the other students. In his own memoirs, Chesman suggested he
00:21:11
was an outcast at school because of his frailty and chronic health problems. >> Maybe it was a mix of both.
00:21:17
>> Independent sources, on the other hand, strongly indicate that the other students didn't like Carol because of
00:21:22
his profound arrogance and generally irritating personality. >> Yeah. >> Not because he was frail and dealt with
00:21:28
health issues. >> All right. Now, because he didn't really have strong social supports and good
00:21:34
friends, by the time he reached his teen years, he decided to just take up some bad ones cuz I don't have any, so why
00:21:41
not? >> Okay. Barely into his teen years, he and his friends spent their time, the
00:21:46
friends that he did find uh spent their time away from school engaging in what probably would have just been described
00:21:51
as like juvenile delinquency at the time. >> Okay, good. >> You know, smoking cigarettes, stealing
00:21:56
liquor from their parents all the time. They stole cars around Gren Glendale and
00:22:01
took them for joy rides and then just like abandoned them. >> Stealing a car is wild work.
00:22:06
>> Which was like kind of a thing. >> Yeah. >> Like that like teens would do. >> Grand Theft Auto
00:22:10
>> and just like joy ride them and then just like abandon them or bring them back.
00:22:15
>> That's crazy. >> Um Chesman wrote uh about the joy rides. Having the powerful car under his
00:22:20
control wrought a change in him. It opened up, with alcohol's help, a new world, a world a man could conquer and
00:22:27
do with it what he pleased. >> Oh. >> Which to me, that statement right there >> as he pleased
00:22:33
>> shows you where this is going. >> Yeah. Not anywhere good. >> No. Like the validation he felt by being
00:22:40
able to provide food for his family during the struggling times. The sense of control and power he was feeling
00:22:46
through his later criminal acts provided what I guess could be described as like
00:22:50
a high. like it was addictive to him. >> Yeah. >> And he couldn't and wasn't gonna deny
00:22:55
it. But in the summer of 1937, when he was only 16 years old, he was caught stealing a car. According to a reporter
00:23:02
for Time magazine, when he was taken to Juvenile Hall for booking, quote, "He scrambled through a window, jumped into
00:23:09
a truck, drove it up to the wall surrounding the place, climbed a top the truck, and escaped over the wall."
00:23:15
>> I like that when he got picked up for Grand Theft Auto, he just Grand Theft Auto again.
00:23:19
>> His way out of there. >> Like, what? He said, "You can't get me." He said, "I'm just going to do the same thing to
00:23:25
get out of here." >> Oh, man. Unfortunately for him, he was quickly rearrested a few hours later
00:23:30
when he was caught looting a drugstore in the middle of the night. What the [ __ ] Inexplicably, he had piled the
00:23:36
store's entire supply of cigars into the middle of the floor and soaked them in whiskey bottles, smashing the glass all
00:23:43
over the floor. Oh my god. Yeah. Now remember, he had only been picked up for it was he had stolen a car, but he was
00:23:52
it was basically a petty crime of joy riding. Yeah. That's especially back then, joy riding was like a thing.
00:23:57
>> Yeah. >> Um now it's a far more significant crime. >> I'm like, why did you make this a
00:24:02
million times worse? >> Well, and this is even worse because he was sentenced to 8 months at the Preston
00:24:07
School. >> Yeah. Of industry. Oh, I remember that school. Yep. the juvenile detentions
00:24:13
facility in Lone, California for offenders serving long sentences. >> If you haven't listened to that episode,
00:24:20
pause this episode. >> That's a wild one. >> Go listen to that and then pick back up
00:24:24
here. >> It's a wild episode gnarly. >> Yeah. >> He was released from Preston in April
00:24:30
1938 and was changed. >> Yeah. Well, apparently not, cuz he was um in other ways
00:24:35
>> for just a little over a month when he was arrested a second time for stealing
00:24:38
another car and was sent to the Los Angeles County Road Camp, which was a work camp alternative to prison.
00:24:44
>> O, it was during his second stay at Preston, that Carol met a group of boys who would prove pretty consequential on
00:24:53
his path to becoming a career criminal. >> Or uh let's talk about uh the Boy Bandit
00:24:58
Gang, shall we? The Boy Bandit Gang. >> Yes. Let's do that. Let's talk about it.
00:25:03
Let's do so. >> Throughout his youth, Carol had engaged in a, you know, a lot of criminal
00:25:07
behavior. Uh, most of it petty, rarely resulting in a massive consequence of like years or something. Um, in some
00:25:15
ways it, you know, he wasn't all that different from a lot of like dis disaffected youth of the era
00:25:21
essentially. There was a lot of that going on, right? Um, but while in some ways it was kind of like just youthful
00:25:29
indiscretions, the social and cultural reaction to juvenile delinquency had changed during the depression years and
00:25:37
those youthful indiscretions were now being taken much more seriously. >> People didn't have time for their [ __ ]
00:25:43
>> Yeah, they didn't have time for that [ __ ] >> So, we've been through a goddamn
00:25:46
depression. >> It's true. So the change in how the Americans, you know, and the American
00:25:50
system conceived of juvenile crime was kind of it was related a little bit to the larger movement for prison reform
00:25:58
that started like decades before this. Um because for the first time, children came to be seen as distinctly different
00:26:05
from adult criminals. Until that point, children who were convicted of crimes were generally thrown into adult prisons
00:26:11
and just dealt with that. Oh, >> like teens were just thrown in with like 50-year-old hardened criminals.
00:26:18
>> That's no bueno. >> By the late 1920s and early 1930s, reformists had succeeded in
00:26:24
establishing, you know, separate laws and punishments for juvenile offenders. That's where the Preston School of
00:26:30
Industry came about, where they were treated more like they were supposed to be treated more like children in in need
00:26:36
of help than criminals deserving of massive punishments. >> Yeah. While this may have done a world
00:26:42
of good for at risk youth, a gentler approach to punishment did very little to discourage unrepentant young
00:26:50
criminals like Carol Chessman from committing crimes as children and then just going on to do it as adult.
00:26:55
>> Also just wasn't much of a different approach. >> No, it really wasn't. So, so while
00:26:59
serving his second sentence, uh, Chesman met a group of other young offenders around his age. This included Robert
00:27:06
Pak, Andrew Rutled, and Gordon Cle. Like Carol, these young men had come from lower middleclass families and by the
00:27:13
time they met in the fall of 1939, >> they had already committed like a ton of petty crimes. Like just between them,
00:27:20
they had just a mountain of petty crimes. >> They were just doing crimes. >> Just crimeing. Upon their release in
00:27:25
early 1941, the four young men along with a fifth unnamed young man formed the Boy Bandit Gang.
00:27:32
>> I wonder how long it took them to come up with that. >> You know, they sat there.
00:27:37
Um, they were formed for the sole purpose of committing armed robbery. So, we've
00:27:43
>> Oh, we've up the antiated. >> Years later, in his memoir, Carol Chesman claimed that despite the full
00:27:50
participation of others, the idea for the gang was his and his alone. >> Okay, that was it. Uh, he wrote, "My
00:27:58
glib tongue talked them into the ways of banditry. I accept full responsibility since I dreamed it angrily into
00:28:05
existence." Banditry? Again, I say beautifully written. >> Yeah, >> I dreamed it angrily into existence.
00:28:14
>> That's [ __ ] >> That's good [ __ ] >> What a waste. >> I know. >> Like truly a waste.
00:28:18
>> You could dream better [ __ ] into existence. >> You could have dreamed a lot of
00:28:22
beautiful [ __ ] into existence if you weren't such an [ __ ] >> Why didn't you do that, man?
00:28:26
>> According to Chessman, the gang was never very successful when it came to their goals. He wrote, "Our efforts were
00:28:31
not crowned with conspicuous economic success." He said, "We didn't make a lot of
00:28:37
money." >> Almost from the beginning, we ran into more trouble than money. Even though
00:28:41
clicking perfectly as a team, >> like all aspects of his life, his descriptions of his boy bandit gang
00:28:47
escapades are a mix of like faux humility, a lot of boasting, and like the smallest
00:28:56
dash of honesty. >> Yeah. Like we actually weren't that good, >> so it's a little tough.
00:29:00
>> But we were perfect. >> Yeah, we were perfect though. We were [ __ ] welloiled. Great.
00:29:04
>> His descriptions of the gang's early activities make them sound like a band of practice criminals. You know,
00:29:10
spending days studying their targets, developing detailed schedules, learning their routines, like so high high tech.
00:29:17
>> Yeah. >> But at the same time, he freely admits the gang never made any money out of the
00:29:22
jobs and mainly got by on whatever whatever they got from like robbing gas stations and liquor stores every now and
00:29:29
then. So like which one is it? Yeah, that's those two things are vastly different.
00:29:33
>> Based on his very c like carefully curated descriptions of events, the reader of his memoirs will get the
00:29:41
understanding that the gang as a group was just a bumbling group of young guys. >> Yeah.
00:29:47
>> Who they were like teenage pranksters apparently that were like >> actually doing bad [ __ ] like you know
00:29:52
what I mean? Like but it was not good. Um, and when you read it, you get the idea that they were never really a
00:29:58
threat and were kind of like harmless, but in reality, they were not. They were not harmless. They were bumbling as
00:30:06
[ __ ] but they were not harmless. And the fact that they were bumbling as [ __ ]
00:30:10
with guns is really scary. And that's the thing, like when you read his memoir, like, be careful cuz you're
00:30:16
going to get the idea that like, oh, they were just like they were just silly boys
00:30:21
being silly. And it's like, nope, >> they did bad [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, on the afternoon of February 1st,
00:30:27
1941, Chesman Pak Rutled and two others were driving in LA when they were pulled
00:30:33
over by an LAPD patrol officer for a traffic violation. The officer comes up to the car and he sees a large amount of
00:30:40
new clothing and items in the car. A loot. >> And at the time, LA was experiencing a
00:30:45
wave. A wave. >> A wave. >> I don't know why I said it like that. was experiencing a wave of teen gang
00:30:53
robberies. It was like a the [ __ ] I know. Teen like just bandit gangs were a thing.
00:31:00
>> You're running a monk. >> Yeah. He was like, "Oh [ __ ] I've stumbled upon one of those youth gangs."
00:31:06
>> So he he asked So he walked up to the car and said, "Hello, youth. >> Hello youths. What are you up to?" So he
00:31:13
asked a bystander to call for the sheriff. He was like, "You know what? Call for the sheriff. I'm going to go
00:31:17
see what this is about." Yeah. >> So, the young woman went to the phone and Chessman and the other men got out
00:31:22
of the car, young men, I should say, got out of the car and attacked the officer,
00:31:26
knocking him to the ground and kicking and punching him. >> What the [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. They're not just like silly.
00:31:32
>> Yeah. When the offic No, they're not silly at all. When the officer's partner
00:31:36
saw what was happening, he rushed in, but he was dragged into the whole fight. And at one point, one of the attackers
00:31:41
managed to grab one of the officers guns and shoot one of the officers in the leg. shattering his femur. Oh [ __ ]
00:31:50
>> Yeah. So like [ __ ] >> Oh my god. >> This was for a traffic violation. >> Yeah. So the gunshot and resulting
00:32:00
injury were quickly followed by the sound of the sheriff's car approaching. So the group split up with two of them
00:32:05
running into a nearby orchard. >> An orchard. >> Which is very teenage bandit gang.
00:32:12
>> An orchard. >> Those two were living the teenage bandit gang life. >> They were. And then the other three were
00:32:18
unable to start their own car, so they hijacked a car at gunpoint and took it off towards downtown LA.
00:32:25
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Where are these kids' parents? >> That's what I'm saying. What followed
00:32:29
was a long car chase in which Chesman, Pak, and Rutledge, who were in the car, were pursued for miles and were shooting
00:32:37
at sheriff's deputies until one of the pursuing officers managed to fire a shot into one of the tires and caused the car
00:32:44
to flip. >> Oh [ __ ] And the but all three of them ran out of the car. Got out of the car.
00:32:49
>> What the hell? >> In the end, the three were finally caught when Pak was shot in the side and
00:32:54
in the leg. >> And Rutled was shot in the hand, forcing them to stop. >> Ouch. >> Later that day, sheriff's deputies
00:33:01
received a tip about the identities of the other two men in the car and arrested Gordon Cle and William Taylor
00:33:06
in [ __ ] orchard. When they searched Cle's home, they discovered a pistol, which was later determined to be the gun
00:33:13
stolen from the patrol officer at the traffic stop. >> Why did you keep that at your home, you
00:33:18
[ __ ] like, glad you're that dumb. >> Yeah. The two the two young men who were hurt were taken to the hospital and the
00:33:23
others were booked. All were charged with highway robbery, >> which for some reason just
00:33:30
>> highway robbery. Get away with highway robbery. >> That statement is just the best.
00:33:35
>> Hearing someone actually booked on that is wild. So wild. Um, they were also booked with
00:33:41
assaulting two police officers and the shooting. >> Yeah. >> So, the highway robbery thing sounds
00:33:45
funny and then it's like, oh, also you shot people, >> right? Police officer. >> A few days later, a sixth member of the
00:33:52
boy bandit gang, 23-year-old Don Abbott was arrested after Abbott's car, which was known to have been used in the
00:33:59
robbery, was spotted in Los Angeles. Like the other arrests, his arrest came after a long car chase where sheriff's
00:34:06
officers traded multiple gunshots with Don Abbott and ultimately forced him off the road to stop the chase. On February
00:34:14
13th, several witnesses, including the LAPD patrol officers who initiated the stop, identified the boy bandit gang
00:34:22
members in court and testified to having been quote terrorized and in several instances beaten by the youths.
00:34:29
>> Yeah. All were beaten by you. >> I have been beaten by you. Holy >> [ __ ] >> It's just that that quote is just like
00:34:36
wild. All were held over for trial on armed robbery charges in superior court. And William Taylor was also charged with
00:34:43
attempted murder for shooting the police officer. >> Yeah. >> Far from harmless bumbling little boys
00:34:50
robbing liquor stores described by Carol Chessman in his memoir. The Boy Bandit gang perpetrated a series of robberies
00:34:57
that while not violent in themselves in the beginning, seemed to have escalated very quickly to violence. Yeah. So, they
00:35:04
started small and they just really ratcheted it up. >> And again, with like very little
00:35:09
provocation. >> Yeah. >> It's not like they had a moment where like they this was like they had no
00:35:15
other choice. >> No, they literally got stopped for a traffic violation. >> Like what are you doing? Now, Carol
00:35:20
Chesman and the other members of the Boy Bandit gang were found guilty and given
00:35:24
sentences of varying lengths for their participation in this assault, robbery, and shootout that led to the arrest.
00:35:30
>> Um, Carol received a 5-year sentence and was sent to San Quentin. >> After serving just two years, his good
00:35:37
behavior and diligent work in the prison library earned him a transfer to the California Institution for Men, which
00:35:44
was an open prison model in Chino, California. Huh. Like the Preston School of Industry, the California Institute
00:35:51
for Men was a product of the prison reform movement, which was aimed at rehabilitation rather than punishment.
00:35:58
>> Okay, which you can get behind. >> Yeah, cool idea. >> As the nation's first minimum security
00:36:03
prison, inmates had considerably more freedom, were provided with job training and other life skills in the less like
00:36:10
restrictive and punishing and more supportive environment. >> Okay, which for like smaller time
00:36:16
criminals Yeah, yeah, like why not? >> Just as he had done at the Preston school years earlier, he used the
00:36:24
relaxed attitude and minimum security environment to his advantage. And in late August 1943, he escaped from the
00:36:32
California Institution for Men. Uh he was on the run for two weeks and he was arrested at a motel in Glendale on
00:36:39
September 3rd. And he claimed, this is what he claimed, that he quote suffered an attack of
00:36:47
amnesia while serving as a plane an airplane watcher at the institution. And that his first recollection, therefore,
00:36:54
was when he found himself running through an orange grove near Upland. >> What? Yes. Qua, if you will. when that
00:37:06
explanation didn't work. >> Weirdly failed to convince the warden and the district's attorney. Weirdly
00:37:12
failed. It's so crazy. >> I don't know. So, they're tough. They're tough, >> I guess. So,
00:37:18
>> um you know, he had another story, though. He changed his story. >> Oh. >> And he claimed he had quote run away
00:37:25
only because he was hellbent on carrying out a plot to kill or kidnap Hitler. Ah,
00:37:36
weirdly that didn't work either. >> Oh no. >> I know. It's weird that that one didn't
00:37:42
work. Um, he was sent back to prison. >> That's probably good. >> Four more years.
00:37:48
>> That's That's probably Swell. Did they put him in a more maximum obscurity one?
00:37:53
>> I Yeah. Yep. Yep. He was It's weird that that one, you know, like be so for real
00:38:00
right now. >> I was like, "Wow, you really like you went hard with that one. I mean, you went from amnesia
00:38:07
>> to that. It's just you had no middle ground. >> While I respect your game, >> like, damn.
00:38:16
>> He really thought that was going to be like, oh, >> like Oh, >> that tells you that tells you so much
00:38:22
about him. >> It does. Cuz he really thought that was >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what I was doing.
00:38:28
>> Why? But here you are putting me in prison again. men. >> Throughout his memoirs and interviews,
00:38:34
uh, Carol constantly tried to control the narrative of his own life, attempting to minimize the severity of
00:38:39
any of his crimes, downplay his own inherent criminality. Uh, but every time he was given the opportunity to change
00:38:46
his ways and just start fresh, he just wasted no time getting straight back to being a criminal. Every time.
00:38:53
>> Yeah. In December 1947, >> Carol was parrolled and returned to Glendale where he had less than two
00:39:04
weeks that passed before he started planning another robbery scheme. >> Brother man,
00:39:09
>> yeah, he just can't see. He doesn't He will not let up. >> Stop. Go get a job.
00:39:14
>> He reached back out to his old associates and he tried to find a new accomplice. He said, "Hey y'all."
00:39:19
>> Yeah. >> I'm out of the clink. >> I'm out of the clink for 48 hours. want to go kill Hitler.
00:39:24
>> Now, it's important to note that this is where independent accounts of the Red
00:39:28
Light Bandit part ways with his own biography, like his own memoir, since he always maintained his innocence and
00:39:35
claims he has nothing to do with the attacks that he was convicted for. >> Interesting.
00:39:40
>> Even though he was identified, >> okay, >> the Los Angeles County prosecutor at the
00:39:44
time suggests otherwise. According to the theory presented at his trial later, Carol and his new partner, David Nolles,
00:39:52
like crime partner David uh Nolles, started out small, robbing convenience stores. You know, they just got out of
00:39:58
prison. We got to start small. >> Start small. >> Everybody has to start somewhere.
00:40:02
>> Yeah. >> Robbing clothing stores for a handful of crumpled bills and change. Okay. Then
00:40:07
one day, as they were surveying the new dark gray Ford coupe they'd stolen, it occurred to Carol that it strongly
00:40:13
resembled an LAPD Prowler car driven by officers. Oh. >> And it gave him an idea. In fact, it
00:40:20
wasn't just that it resembled an LAPD Prowler in shape and color. It also had a bright spotlight on the top just like
00:40:29
one would find on a police car. Was it a police car? Not real sure. A few days later, in the late afternoon of January
00:40:37
18th, Thomas Bartle and his girlfriend were driving along the Pacific Coast Highway when a dark colored coupe came
00:40:44
up fast behind them and there was a red light flashing on the roof. >> That's so scary.
00:40:49
>> Assuming it was a police officer, why would you think otherwise? >> Bartle pulled the car off the side of
00:40:55
the road and was very surprised when the car behind them did the same because he
00:41:00
wasn't doing anything. So, he thought like they're just >> get out of the way, right? But he was
00:41:04
like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm being pulled over." So he was like, "Oh, I don't know what I
00:41:07
did." But he rolled down the driver's side window as the driver of the car came and demanded to see his license. In
00:41:13
the moment, something about the scene, he said, like just didn't feel right. >> Yeah.
00:41:17
>> So Bartle asked to see the officer's identification, which is [ __ ] brilliant. And especially for the time
00:41:23
when you are taught, especially in this time period, you just blindly respect authority. Like
00:41:30
>> absolutely. >> So for them to do that, I'm like, that's smart. That's when the driver though
00:41:34
produced a 45 caliber pistol and stuck it in Bartle's face and demanded that he hand over whatever cash he had on him.
00:41:42
So the couple between them only had $15. So he gave him all the money. The man jumped back into his car and drove away.
00:41:50
>> Wow. Which would be the weirdest interaction in the entire world. >> Also all that [ __ ] trauma for $15.
00:41:58
>> Yeah. Later that night, the bandit was out on the streets again looking for another easy score. That evening, Floyd
00:42:07
Bellow and his girlfriend Elaine Bushaw were parked on an isolated service road near the Roseb.
00:42:14
Just as before, a man in a dark gray coupe pulled up beside the car and the red light was like shining right through
00:42:21
there, like blinding them essentially. Um, but the bandit this time did not bother with the pretense of being a
00:42:26
police officer and instead just produced a gun immediately. >> Oh. And shouted, "This is a stickup.
00:42:32
Hand over your dough or I'll blow your brains out." >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. So, Bellow wasted no time doing as
00:42:39
he was told, handing over about $20. And the bandit left the scene again. Okay. The next day, the news of the
00:42:47
back-to-back robberies in the same evening made headlines around Southern California, of course. And this is when
00:42:52
the press dubbed the robbery the red light bandit. >> Okay. >> Um, so given that no one was hurt in the
00:42:58
robbery, the papers reported the incidents with like a lot of enthusiasm and sensationalistic flare, you know,
00:43:04
like just being like, "Haha, silly bandits." >> Uh, but little did they know the bandit
00:43:08
was just getting started. So the next night, Jarnan Leia and his girlfriend Regina Johnson were parked along an
00:43:16
isolated road in the Hollywood Hills. And that's when a dark gray coupe pulled up alongside them with the red light.
00:43:23
The bandit stepped out to the driver's side and Leia saw an averagel looking man holding a 45 caliber pistol and his
00:43:30
face was covered by a handkerchief. The bandit took the $45 from Leia's wallet that he said he had and another
00:43:38
$6 from Johnson. And he didn't flee the scene immediately, though. Like, he had done the stick up thing, you know, like
00:43:46
the whole thing. >> Instead, he pulled Regina Johnson out of the car and dragged her back to the
00:43:52
coupe, forcing her into the back seat, and he started trying to sexually assault her.
00:43:57
>> Oh, wow. >> So, he escalated within 24 hours. Oh, >> like the the night before he had done
00:44:05
this to two couples and he had just come up with the idea too >> when he had just come up with the idea.
00:44:10
>> It's almost like he was on like a power thrill. >> He saw that he got away with it and he
00:44:14
was like, "What else can I get away with?" >> Oh, that's awful. >> Fortunately, before Chessman was able to
00:44:19
get very far, because obviously, you know, this is Carol Chesman. Uh, yeah. Unfortunat, you know, fortunately before
00:44:25
he was be able to get like too far, the scene was suddenly lit up by the lights of an approaching car. So, Regina being
00:44:35
the brilliant boss she was, told her attacker that it might be the police and suggested he uncover his face so he
00:44:43
didn't look so suspicious. Oh, >> cuz she was like, "If oh, if the police see somebody with a handkerchief back
00:44:48
here, they're going to think you're attacking me. You should pull it down." >> Right. So he was like, "Yeah, totally."
00:44:54
And he lowered the handkerchief >> and she saw his whole face. >> She got a good look at his face.
00:44:59
>> Oh my god, that was such a [ __ ] brilliant but also such a bargain because you're now you've seen his face.
00:45:05
Exactly. >> That makes it even more dangerous. >> Hoping that it goes the way you want it
00:45:09
to. >> Yeah. >> Once the car had passed, Carol Chesman let her out of the car and left the
00:45:14
scene. >> Wow. and they went straight to the sheriff's office and reported the robbery and the assault and now had and
00:45:22
like enough to give them a lot of information. >> Now, the press covered this and weirdly
00:45:29
made no mention of the attempted rape of Regina Johnson in the coverage. >> What the [ __ ]
00:45:33
>> Just said like, "Oh, another red light bandit." That was a tasteful. >> Yeah. Now, after the attack on Leia and
00:45:39
Johnson, Chesman drove around for a few hours until just after midnight when he spotted another car pulled off the side
00:45:46
of the road. After pulling up behind them and flashing the light, he went up to the driver's side and flashed a beam,
00:45:52
like a flashlight beam into their eyes. When he reached the car, he found that there was only one man in it. So, he
00:45:59
robbed the driver of $1. >> A dollar. >> And then left. >> Yeah. >> A dollar. Mhm. He's thinking this is
00:46:08
another couple and he gets one guy with $1 on him. >> Yikes. >> So, he went quiet for like 2 days and
00:46:15
then he headed out on the streets again on the night of January 22nd. This time he went back out to the Hollywood Hills
00:46:21
where he had attacked Leia and Johnson a few nights earlier and quickly found another couple parked on a lover's lane
00:46:27
overlooking the city. After parking the coupe, he flashed the red spotlight into
00:46:31
the car and approached the driver's side and demanded that the driver, 20-year-old Frank Hurlbutt, hand over
00:46:38
his money. The couple assumed that they if they gave him the money, he would just leave.
00:46:43
>> Yeah. Cuz they had also heard this covered in the press, and they didn't mention that he had tried to rape one of
00:46:50
the women. So, this woman has no reason to believe this man is going to do something to her, which was a really
00:46:56
[ __ ] massive disservice to her >> in that moment. >> Absolutely. It was. It pisses me off
00:47:01
that they didn't cover that. >> But instead of letting them leave after getting the money, he pulled 17-year-old
00:47:09
Mary Louise Mesa out of the car and began dragging her back to his own vehicle. >> Oh god. Once Mary was out of the car,
00:47:16
Frank put his own car into gear and fled the scene, which he later claimed he was
00:47:21
going to get the police. >> But that must have been a really horrifying sight for his girlfriend to
00:47:28
see. >> I I'm going to keep my comment to myself. >> When Yeah. When, and this is even
00:47:35
weirder, when Carol Chesman saw Frank leave the scene, he jumped in the front seat with Mary still in the back seat
00:47:43
and started chasing Frank through the Hollywood Hills. What? When he finally managed to catch up, Carol tried to
00:47:50
force the other car off the road, but only managed to get his own car stuck and allowed Frank to escape. Okay. Once
00:47:58
he was out of sight, Carol Chesman drove to a secluded area and raped Mary. >> Oh god.
00:48:05
>> Threatening to kill her boyfriend if she didn't comply. >> Oh. >> When he'd finished, he let her go and
00:48:11
drove away. >> Just dropped her in a secluded area of the road. Oh my. And drove away.
00:48:15
>> That poor girl. >> The next day, >> 17 years old. >> Oh yeah. The next day, the papers all
00:48:21
reported enthusiastically on the exploits of the red light bandit. But once again, quiet. Why aren't they
00:48:29
saying that he's raping women? That's huge news. >> Instead, the way they reported it was
00:48:34
that Chesman had quote let Mary out of his car unharmed within a block of her home.
00:48:40
>> Unharmed. >> Instead of drove her to a secluded area, raped her, and then left her.
00:48:45
>> What the [ __ ] >> Why? Like that's what good reason do you have to not report what's actually
00:48:51
[ __ ] happening aside from like oh it'll really get people all in >> I think they see this as like oh this
00:48:56
this crazy red light bandit like that's not fun if he's raping people like it's only funny if he's just taking a dollar
00:49:03
from people and leaving but it's like okay now women are in >> now you've made everybody unsafe
00:49:07
>> right >> so the next afternoon Chessman and Nolles entered a clothing store in
00:49:12
Roondo and armed with a 45 caliber pistol and a toy pistol held up the clerk Uh, his name was Melvin Weisler and they
00:49:20
held up a second employee, Joe Leer. When Joe hesitated in giving over his wallet, Chesman beat him in the head and
00:49:27
face with the butt of the 45 and threatened to kill him. Oh god. After getting the cash from the registers and
00:49:33
the two men's wallets, Carol Chesman and Nolles gathered up around $500 worth of
00:49:39
men's clothes from the racks and then fled, leaving in the dark gray coupe. Once they were gone, they obviously
00:49:46
reported this whole thing to the police and described the two men in their vehicle for the dispatcher. Around the
00:49:52
same time, two LA uh traffic officers who happened to be driving behind the coupe heard the broadcast about the
00:49:59
robbery and realized the description matched the car driving in front of them, which must have been a wild thing.
00:50:05
>> Yeah. It's like, okay, he's right here. >> We're like, oh, we're in perfect position. Of course, as soon as they hit
00:50:10
the lights and instructed the driver, pull over, Chessman proceeded to pedal to the metal and started fleeing, of
00:50:16
course, >> weaving in and out of side streets at 80 mph. >> Oh, that's so scary.
00:50:22
>> Once again, he found it. This is just like a funny little like full circle moment because it's like now Carol
00:50:29
Chesman has found himself just repeating that same car chase with, you know, his
00:50:34
earlier criminal career and his later one. >> Yep. Um, so this resulted in a nearly
00:50:39
hour-long high-speed chase through the streets of Los Angeles. Holy. >> With Chesman and Nolles trading gunfire
00:50:45
with what became an eight car team of pursuers. >> Oh my god. >> Had Chesman not run into like LA traffic
00:50:54
essentially, like downtown traffic. >> Be thankful for that. >> Yeah. They would have probably got away.
00:50:59
>> Yeah. >> But he attempted to make a U-turn to avoid the traffic and was rammed by one
00:51:05
of the pursuing officers. bringing the car to a stop. >> Damn. >> To David Nolles, the stalled car was
00:51:11
reason enough to throw up his hands and surrender. >> Yeah. >> But Chesman wasn't giving up. So, he
00:51:15
jumped out of the car, fled into the alleys behind uh between the nearby houses. And it was only after the
00:51:21
officers fired two warning shots above his head that he gave up. That's definitely the time, if any. Now, in his
00:51:28
memoir, he says that one of the shots grazed the top of his head. But there's photographs taken of directly after his
00:51:34
arrest and there is no injury on his head that he's a lying sack of [ __ ] >> When the officers searched the car,
00:51:41
which they determined was stolen several weeks earlier, they found a detachable roof mounted spotlight. The screws were
00:51:48
found in Chesman's shirt pocket. Other evidence taken from the vehicle was a 45 caliber pistol, a toy pistol, a pen
00:51:56
light, hundreds of dollars of clothing, all with the price tag still attached. Unreal. Based on the evidence and the
00:52:02
identifications provided by W uh Weisler and Lecher, both men that were robbed at
00:52:08
the store. >> Yeah. >> They were booked on a variety of charges including armed robbery and both were
00:52:13
considered prime suspects in the red light bandit robberies as well. >> So the day after this, Mary Louise Mesa
00:52:21
came to the station with her mother. Remember she's 17. >> Yeah. where she identified Carol Chesman
00:52:27
as the man who'd robbed and sexually kidnapped and sexually sexually assaulted her.
00:52:31
>> Right. >> But told officers she'd never seen Nolles before. >> Okay. >> So, he was not part of that.
00:52:37
>> More identifications were made in the following days, including one from Regina Johnson, who also identified only
00:52:43
Carol Chesman as her attacker. >> Yep. Now, upon interrogation, Carol admitted he'd stolen the clothing into
00:52:50
being the red light bandit, but he denied the rape allegations and sexual assault allegations.
00:52:56
>> Of course. >> Later, he would claim, among other things, that the confession had been
00:53:00
beaten out of him over the course of three days by several LAPD officers. >> Doubt it. He said, "I was brutally
00:53:06
beaten, denied sleep, threatened with further violence, not allowed to see any at an attorney or my father, grilled to
00:53:12
exhaustion, and promised only two or three counts of robbery charges would be filed if I confess to the red light
00:53:18
crimes." Now, I don't think it's like um like a hidden fact that um the LAPD has
00:53:25
a long and unfortunate history of, you know, employing tactics that >> are brutal. This is true.
00:53:33
>> Especially when it comes to extracting a confession. >> Mhm. >> Can't can't get away from that.
00:53:38
>> Nope. >> In this case though, the evidence doesn't really support his claims. Um,
00:53:44
you know, just like the shot of like the warning shot above his head that he said
00:53:48
grazed his head. There's photographs that prove that's wrong. >> Well, they also had so much evidence
00:53:53
that it doesn't seem like they would really even need a confession to to bring this anywhere. Well, and there was
00:53:58
a lot of photos taken of him after his arrest and during this interrogation and after. If he had been beaten and abused
00:54:05
as severely as he claimed to be there would be some marks and there was no marks on him.
00:54:09
>> And this is way back in the 40s. Like they didn't retouch the photos, you know.
00:54:13
>> Exactly. And they weren't really shying away from leaving marks on criminals back then especially. So the fact that
00:54:19
he didn't have marks on him was pretty wild. Um, obviously, you know, I wasn't there, so I don't know, but the evidence
00:54:25
points in the direction that he's a lying sack of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> He's also a rapist, so I don't really
00:54:30
care what he says. >> That's the thing. So, it's like, regardless of it of the denials, in late
00:54:35
January, Carol was indicted on 18 counts, including robbery, kidnapping, and rape. On March 12th, both Chessman
00:54:43
and Nolles appeared before a judge in superior court and pleaded not guilty, and a trial date was set for April. By
00:54:50
his own admission, Carol had had a long a very difficult time finding a lawyer who was willing to take his case. I
00:54:56
mean, I could understand why. >> Yeah. I mean, they had a lot of evidence tying him to the red light cases,
00:55:01
including the light itself and several victims. >> Not itself, like the red light.
00:55:06
>> They said, "Babe, we actually have the red light." >> Yeah, we have that. >> Most lawyers he spoke with told him they
00:55:12
could try to get him a decent deal and keep him from getting a life sentence, but none believed they had a chance at a
00:55:18
quiddle. Unfortunately, as far as Chessman was concerned, a total acquitt was the only
00:55:24
acceptable outcome. So, >> with the trial date coming up, he made the universally un unwise decision to
00:55:31
represent himself at trial. >> No. >> Yeah, >> that really is universally unwise.
00:55:37
>> Uh he later said, "A courtroom and I were not strangers. I was familiar generally with the rules and evidence
00:55:44
and although acquired informally, I possessed a working knowledge of criminal trial procedure. So he may have
00:55:50
thought he was familiar with how a criminal trial worked, but when the trial began at the end of April 1948,
00:55:56
he showed himself to be less than prepared to be a lawyer. >> I always think about like the confidence
00:56:01
that it takes to say, "I'm going to represent myself in course in court." And it's like when you really sit down
00:56:09
and watch a trial and all the formalities and all the proceedings that take place, it's like,
00:56:14
>> yeah, >> you're not equipped to do that if you don't have a background in law.
00:56:18
>> You don't. >> You're just not equipped. >> There's a reason that the LSATs >> exist
00:56:23
>> are [ __ ] hard as [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> There's a reason like that people like are are losing their minds studying for
00:56:31
that. And it's like >> it's so insulting too to like actual lawyers who have gone through the
00:56:35
process >> and it's like somebody it's like I know I am not adequ adequately equipped to
00:56:43
fully educate my children in a way that a teacher who went to school for this can do.
00:56:51
>> I would love to to be able to do that. I know I'm not though. >> But just like
00:56:56
>> it's the same energy. It's the same energy. And just like with that, there are so many people that think they are
00:57:01
>> Oh, equipped to do that and could do better. >> And there's people who make the effort
00:57:08
to actually become able to do these kind of things. You know, like that is absolutely a thing.
00:57:13
>> But there's people who just think they're better. >> Me, like Carol Chesman saying, "I'm
00:57:18
going to represent myself because I've been in a court of law before." >> Yeah. That's crazy. It's me saying I can
00:57:23
teach my kids to school >> all the [ __ ] because I've been in a school before. >> It's not the same thing. Like I have not
00:57:31
been a teacher before. >> It's not. >> It's crazy. >> Like people take >> years sometimes to get cases ready.
00:57:38
>> It's not easy. >> No. >> So it's a real It's a real [ __ ] gamble, dude. And it's a bad one.
00:57:44
>> Yeah. >> But sometimes it just becomes such a >> a [ __ ] farce. That's the thing. And
00:57:50
it becomes a circus and it draws away from like the [ __ ] that actually happened and it can make and then the
00:57:57
victim's families have to sit there and watch this [ __ ] idiot try to bumble his ass through a whole trial and when
00:58:04
they just want to get to the end like you see it so many times and it's like >> these people they should just be told
00:58:10
shut the [ __ ] up. >> They should you take what you can get. So, in addition to constantly refusing
00:58:15
the assistance and guidance of the public defender assigned to assist him, he submitted a witness list that
00:58:21
included a surprising number of people. >> Oh, good. >> Including the LA County District
00:58:25
Attorney and several judges, many of whom had nothing to do with the case. >> So, why were you going to call them?
00:58:33
Also, while the prosecutor walked the jury through the mountain of evidence implicating Chesman and Nolles in the
00:58:39
crimes, Carol just focused largely on character witnesses and about a week into the trial, his mother, Hie, was
00:58:47
brought into the courtroom on a stretcher to testify on his behalf and testified about her son's quote genius
00:58:55
intellect and strong character. >> It doesn't count if your mom says it all. And it's like,
00:59:01
>> and also you really made her go through that. >> And also, Exactly. And it's like, dude,
00:59:05
no one's arguing that you're dumb. >> Yeah. That's the argument here. This is about if you raped a couple of girls,
00:59:13
>> stole a bunch of things, and >> have assaulted, shot people, robbed people, >> like all this [ __ ] to kill people.
00:59:22
Like, >> this is about a whole lot more than your level of intellect. >> I don't care if you're smart.
00:59:26
>> No, >> I'm sure you are. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Clearly not smart enough to not make those choices.
00:59:31
>> To not be doing that [ __ ] It's like, I don't give a [ __ ] if you're a genius.
00:59:34
That doesn't make it okay. >> Yeah. >> So, after a 3 weeks uh trial, it came to a conclusion with an unexpected closing
00:59:41
statement from the prosecutor, Deputy District Attorney Jay Miller Levy, in which uh Miller urged the jury to not
00:59:48
only find Chesman guilty, but to also sentence him to death for his crimes. >> Okay. under normal circumstances, even
00:59:56
the most violent of his crimes didn't qualify for the death sentence. Um, but Miller argued, and this is where it gets
01:00:02
interesting, that due to several aspects of the crimes, the little Lindberg law was more than appropriate.
01:00:11
Now, we have not covered this, and we will. We're going to cover the kidnapping of the Lindberg baby. Yeah.
01:00:16
>> It just stresses me out. >> Yeah. >> But we are going to cover it. It's an important case to cover. It's
01:00:20
fascinating. Um, following the kidnapping and murder of the Lindvert baby in 1932, US Congress passed the
01:00:28
Federal Kidnapping Act, new legislation that made kidnapping a federal offense and could be eligible for the death
01:00:35
penalty. >> Okay. >> Miller argued that because Chesman had detained Regina Johnson and Mary Louise
01:00:42
Mesa during the robbery for quote immoral purposes >> Uhhuh. >> and had transported Mary
01:00:49
>> Yep. >> to a secluded area. Yep. >> He had violated the federal kidnapping act and thus should be held to the same
01:00:56
standard as anyone else who kidnaps someone in order to enact violence against them.
01:01:00
>> That's a valid argument, >> which is a valid argument when you look at it logistically. Yeah. Like it is a
01:01:05
valid argument. >> Now, to many observers, the request for the death penalty seemed like a reach.
01:01:10
But after 32 hours of deliberation, the jury emerged and found Chesman guilty on
01:01:15
nearly all counts and sentenced him to die in the gas chamber at San Quentin prison. When the sentence was read in
01:01:23
court, Chesman jokingly replied, "I still owe 260 years for violating my parole, your honor." Oh, so this was all
01:01:30
just a big joke. Damn. I'm like, "Dude, you just got sentenced to die." >> I wonder if they would have reached that
01:01:37
same decision had he not represented himself. that too. >> I think it is very very possible that he
01:01:44
pissed people off during that whole thing. I think he antagonized. Yeah. And I think it was a bad move on his part.
01:01:51
>> Now, after the verdict, Carol Chesman was removed to San Quentin's death row where he immediately started the appeal
01:01:57
process. David Nolles, meanwhile, was also found guilty of all but the rape charges and was spared the death penalty
01:02:03
cuz he because it doesn't involve in that. Two years later in 1950, Null's convict convictions were reversed upon
01:02:09
appeal due to the lack of evidence tying him to the crimes that he was tried for.
01:02:14
>> The lack of evidence pretty wild. I thought there was a mountain of evidence. Definitely against Chessman. I
01:02:21
think Nolles was less. There was some room for >> Well, and I guess he was just along for
01:02:26
the ride and then who knows who was holding the rear real gun and all that and how they were able to argue that in
01:02:32
the appeals. Now, by the time he had been sentenced to death, Carol Chesman had already made something of a name for
01:02:37
himself in amateur writing. Uh, he had published a few essays about his life in small magazines. The strange and what
01:02:45
some saw as inappropriate application of the death penalty in his case also served to build upon this public persona
01:02:52
for him because he seized the opportunity and started writing his first memoir, Cell 2345, Death Row.
01:02:59
Beginning in the 1950s, the nation was starting to rethink its approach to criminal justice and called into
01:03:05
question among other things the like, you know, the the moral, ethical, you know, implications.
01:03:13
>> There it is. I was trying to I was like, what is the word I'm looking for of the
01:03:17
death penalty? Um, >> in that sense, Carol's case >> came at a pretty politically useful time
01:03:23
for him and his supporters and opponents of the death penalty in general. it really all kind of like went together.
01:03:30
Uh given the circumstances of the crimes and the ways in which those crimes had been punished historically, the
01:03:36
application of the death penalty in this case a lot of people thought was cruel and unusual punishment, which I can see
01:03:42
that side, you know, I get it. Um, in his writing, Carol took advantage of the moment, framing his life story as one
01:03:50
that he had been let down by the authorities in his life and by a system that was supposedly put in place to help
01:03:56
him reform his criminal ways. But again, remember his first rodeo, he was given many times to reform his criminal ways.
01:04:04
He was sent to places to reform >> before that. and he >> [ __ ] in their face escaped and then two
01:04:12
weeks out of there was already starting his new thing. >> So that's not valid. >> So regardless of how you feel about the
01:04:18
death penalty, it's like him saying like that is just [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now quoting a recently published article
01:04:24
in Time magazine, Carol Chesman wrote, "Too many institutions quote had become infused with the rot producing idea that
01:04:31
the salvation of the individual and so of society depends upon conformity and adjustment. He on the other hand said
01:04:39
thought that he was the real embodiment of the American spirit. A man who longed
01:04:43
to be free and had simply been abandoned in the rush towards progress. >> I think it's a little more nuanced than
01:04:51
that. >> You raped people. >> Yeah. >> Um you know his arguments, however well written they were, which they were, were
01:04:59
nothing more than an extension of the manipulations he'd been practicing against authority ever since he started.
01:05:05
honestly his >> exhibiting antisocial traits when he was young. >> Yeah. >> Um but nevertheless to many American
01:05:13
readers those arguments made sense and within a short time after his conviction his death sentence became a popular
01:05:19
cause among a lot of American elites who opposed the death penalty. >> Really? >> Yeah. In the years after this, uh,
01:05:25
Chesman gained a massive audience and a diverse group of supporters who included
01:05:30
famous authors like Norman Mor, Ray Bradberry, and icons like former first lady Eleanor Roosevelt and Marlin
01:05:40
Brando. Hello. Yeah, his memoir was covered. He's a rapist. >> That's the thing. It's like I get why
01:05:47
you're saying like the death penalty might not is not like appropriate in this situation, but like to support like
01:05:54
I don't know about that. Like do you think they support him or did they just support him getting off of death row?
01:06:01
>> I would assume they must just support him getting off of death row. >> Yes, I I can understand that. I don't
01:06:08
know that I would go out of my way to support that. >> I don't I don't know. I think I would
01:06:14
need to know a lot more. Yeah, >> cuz I get the like that the death penalty seems inappropriate in this
01:06:19
situation. Like that I can get behind, >> but I just I'm like I don't know. It's a
01:06:26
hard tough and I think we've talked about this so many times. I have a very tough time with the death penalty
01:06:33
because sometimes I find it applicable. >> Yeah. It's one of those it's hard to >> but at the same time it's very difficult
01:06:40
because we've seen cases where people are wrongfully convicted. That's the thing. And that's where it gets hairy.
01:06:45
>> That's why I like air on the side of I don't like the death penalty. >> Yeah, I live somewhere in the gray.
01:06:51
>> I can teeter over into the gray. I'm never fully for it. I'm I live in a gray
01:06:56
if I live anyway. >> Yeah, I'm definitely not fully for it. That's exactly how I feel.
01:07:00
>> That's the thing. Like nothing fix it. And I Nothing fix it. >> Nothing fix it.
01:07:04
>> Nothing fixes it or like takes away what happened. That's why it's like I just
01:07:09
rely on like the victim's families >> and what they want >> to tell me what they think. You know
01:07:14
what I mean? Because I'm like I I can't imagine >> Yeah. >> being that that 17-year-old's mother cuz
01:07:21
I think I would want that guy to die. >> I think I would too. >> But it's like but is that is you know
01:07:26
what I mean? Like that's emotion and that's >> Yeah. >> That doesn't really like
01:07:31
>> and then you have that applied on your heart. >> Well, that's the thing. It's so
01:07:35
difficult >> and applying emotion into the justice system is a >> slippery slope.
01:07:40
>> Yeah. It just doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like I that's why I don't >> I can see it when a victim's family is
01:07:47
like I want this guy dead. >> I can I get it. I can I get it. And then it's like but then I when I look at it
01:07:55
as a third party outsider, I'm like I just don't think it fixes a lot. Yeah. And I think it creates more issues and I
01:08:02
think it creates more like trauma for everybody involved. And I don't know. >> Yeah. It's hard it's hard to sit down
01:08:08
and really make a decision about how you feel about it. >> And this is just us talking about it.
01:08:13
We're not like taking stances or trying to tell you what you should think. >> No. If anything, neither of us can. Like
01:08:18
that's the thing. Like we're just talking through it. Like this is just us like kind of sh like just talking
01:08:23
through this as it comes through our mind. >> Yeah. And we've done this before. like
01:08:26
this doesn't need to be taken very seriously as like you should think this >> cuz I think
01:08:31
>> cuz you're free to think what you want. >> I think everybody's opinion of it is
01:08:35
valid because it's such a >> nuanced and complicated >> topic >> topic that I think everybody's opinion
01:08:43
on it is very valid and >> you know >> Yeah. >> and so varied. >> Yeah. >> Well, anyway, we digress.
01:08:50
>> This Yeah, this is just one of those crazy things. But uh his memoir which he
01:08:55
published in 1954, it was published to great critical and commercial success and was adapted into
01:09:01
a successful film the following year. Yeah. Um despite all those personal successes, Carol Chesman's appeals to
01:09:10
the higher courts all failed on their merits. The basis for the appeals varied and ranged from claims of force u
01:09:17
forcible extraction of a confession to prejuditial errors on the part of the prosecutor and the courts to a violation
01:09:24
of his equal protection of rights. Uh among his most frequent complaints was that several witnesses perjured
01:09:31
themselves on the stands and uh the court record was later amended to cover up those lies. That's what he was
01:09:37
claiming. >> Okay. With regard to that, the justices of the California Supreme Court wrote,
01:09:42
"At no time since the original reporter's transcript of the trial was prepared has defendant made it appear
01:09:47
that the transcript does not adequately and substantially reflect the nature of the people's case and of his defense."
01:09:54
>> Okay. >> So, they're basically being like, "You're just saying that now. You've
01:09:58
never once brought this up before." >> Yeah. >> Um, like all his other unsupported
01:10:02
claims, this was flatly rejected. In the decade after this, he continued writing,
01:10:08
publishing, and pleading his case to anyone who would listen. He was often persuasive and won over a lot of
01:10:13
important people, but none of it was enough to produce the desired outcome. And by 1960, he'd exhausted all his
01:10:21
opportunities to appeal. On the morning of May 2nd, 1960, after 12 years of fighting, Carol Chesman was executed in
01:10:29
the gas chamber at San Quentin prison and was pronounced dead a little past 10:00 a.m. Um, one reporter wrote, "Just
01:10:36
as the fatal fumes rose, the 38-year-old chessman seemed to chuckle." Oh, yeah. Which is like chilling. That is
01:10:44
chilling. In a pretty cruel twist of fate, to end this story, just after he was pronounced dead, the warden at San
01:10:55
Quentin received word that the state supreme court had decided to impose a stay of execution for Chessman while
01:11:02
they considered a habius corpus argument. It gets worse. That morning, a secretary
01:11:10
for the justices rushed to get in contact with someone in a position of authority at the prison, but she
01:11:17
accidentally dialed the wrong number and was unable to reach anyone. By the time
01:11:23
she realized the mistake, Chessman had been executed. >> Oh, >> and this is why I can't get behind it.
01:11:34
They were about to give him a stay. >> Oh wow. >> To at least look into another argument
01:11:42
like oh [ __ ] That's Yeah. Wow. And then after he was executed, he was cremated and his he had requested
01:11:57
that his ashes be put sent to Forest Lawn Cemetery to be interred with his parents.
01:12:02
>> Yeah. But the management at the cemetery refused to inter him because of the crimes he had committed. So they were
01:12:09
instead interned at Mount Tamalpus Cemetery. I'm sorry if I said that wrong. Until 1974 and then they were
01:12:16
disinterred and scattered off the coast of California. Uhhuh. So an interesting end.
01:12:22
>> A very interesting end. I did not see that coming. >> Dialing the wrong number is
01:12:27
>> clerical errors. You are diabolical. >> Diabolical. truly diabolical. >> Like that poor girl.
01:12:36
>> Yeah. >> Probably thought about that every day for the rest of her life. >> That's rough.
01:12:42
>> Which also sucks cuz he's a rapist at the end of the day. >> Yeah. >> But like that's a huge mistake.
01:12:49
>> Yeah. >> That's why it's so like I just bounce back and forth between a gray and an
01:12:57
against. >> Yeah. It's tough. >> I can't We could talk about it all day. We could talk about it all day.
01:13:03
>> I Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That's That's a lot to to process. It really is.
01:13:10
>> In the grand scheme of things, I really just feel so horrible for the two women
01:13:15
that he assaulted and the men that got help and dealt with the trauma >> and had to deal with their, you know,
01:13:21
their girlfriends at the time being kidnapped and assaulted. >> Those who did deal with it.
01:13:25
>> Those who did deal with it. Exactly. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Damn. That that's a wild tale. I really
01:13:33
thought it was going to be a little more like bobhaired bandites, you would think, but it got dark pretty quick.
01:13:38
>> I mean, that case did get dark, too, but this one is dark on a on a different
01:13:42
level. That ending to that story is >> Yeah, the ending threw me for a loop. >> Same. I feel in a tizzy a bit right now.
01:13:50
>> Yeah. Threw me for a loop. >> Wow. Well, thank you for that story. >> Yeah. Thanks to Dave for coming up with
01:13:56
that one cuz that was a Dave A Dave original. >> A king, if you will. a king. If you
01:14:01
will, if we will. And he will. And we will. We all will. >> We all will. >> And hopefully something that you all do
01:14:08
is uh we hope you keep listening. >> Yeah. And we hope you >> keep it weird, but not so weird that you
01:14:15
dial the wrong number. Ooh. Yikes. >> Also, not so weird that you rape people, cuz that's bigger. That's a bigger deal.
01:14:26
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