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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and she refuses to answer in SpongeBob terms but this is
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[Music] morbid this is morbid I asked her I said are you ready kids and she said yep and
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I said nope the correct answer is I I captain and she said yep which is also incorrect but it shows that I am
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ready not I answered in the affirmative which means I am ready whatever whatever
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whatever guys it's spooky season it's spooky season and our spooky season is off to the most glorious start because
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the other night we got to go see something mother [ __ ] corporate guys this I mean I my the first tattoo I ever
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got when I was 18 is the Something Corporate little C like Copyright symbol yes on my
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wrist nobody can copy Elena she one kind one first tattoo uh I literally lived and died by Something Corporate lived
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and died by Andrew McMahon can attest I started listening to Andrew McMahon when
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I was about 5 years old because Elena was 15 and she said we're listening to this she said I have no choice I she
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said we're going to the grocery store let's listen to Constantine and I like you bet you kid so they obviously
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haven't tour in a while and I think the last I mean the last time I saw them was
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I've never seen something I can't even remember we used to see them all the time in high school like we went to
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every single they used to play in like random gymnasiums and [ __ ] we go see them auditoriums and like we would see
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them all the time so I've seen them countless amounts of times in high school and then After High School they
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got back together we saw one I saw one with John and then they just stopped and they wering see Jax like all the time
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yeah but it's like something about and Jax is amazing but just like something about something corporate just the
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Nostalgia yeah and so they were coming back around we immediately got tickets I got tickets I'm not kidding you the day
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they went on sale second they went on sale within seconds yeah and it was me Ash and uh my nephew Aiden who's awesome
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shout out to Aiden Aiden and and we got to go and we we so we gotten uh I'm too excited I'm still like
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coming I'm still dealing with it it was like a what was it a week ago yeah and I
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still feel like it's in my veins yes it oh it is it lives there it lives in me yeah their tour manager Connor shout out
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to [ __ ] Connor and his girlfriend Molly Molly and Connor absolutely forever Molly and Connor forever guys
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two of the nicest people we've ever met in our lives Connor reached out and was like Hey like I'm going to get you in
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and like to meet Andrew cuz he wants to meet you and we said I'm sorry what and I said Connor say it again what do you
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mean what the [ __ ] does that mean and he was like oh yeah so we're walking in with Connor who's a sweetheart and we I
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was just in shock that we were like I was like I'm sorry what he we like you know we'll get you to to meet Andrew and
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I was like holy [ __ ] so I'm thinking after the show cuz we just thought we were going to our seats we're like it's
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like a backstage like tunnel sort of yeah like to get up to this like balcony area so I thought he was taking us there
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he takes us into a room I wish that it was on camera the face I gave to Ash it is in my mind it's in Ash's mind because
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we walked into a room and I just looked over and I go oh that's Andrew [ __ ] McMahon's back like the back of his head
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like that's just he's right there we walked right into a room and he was just like oh here's Andrew I had no idea that
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we were no I lo the last also just for everybody one of the last times that I met him was
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when I was I think I met him once when I was like 18 at a concert and I was very
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like normal and I was like oh like I love your music BL when I was 14 was cool guys I was cool then but when I was
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14 I met Andrew McMahon and I was not very cool and he had lost his voice after the show it was like the I think
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it was the Guster yeah it's when they played with Guster yeah and he lost his voice and we got to meet him after the
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show and he was like signing tickets and I walked up to this man and I just screamed in this man's face I love you
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she went I love you I liter I didn't know what the [ __ ] else to say I was it was one he was so nice if somebody did
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that to me I would probably be so nice but I'd be so overwhelmed and he did not seem overwhelmed at all so this time I
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said you got to play a cool [ __ ] be cool girlfriend you got to you got to just nod and smile he is so kind so ni
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he said he gets hit up con instantly when we mention him or something corporate or Jack mannequin on the show
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why you guys are the [ __ ] tit shout out to you anybody who has reached out to HCM and told him and I mean I'm
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forever in your debt because when he brought that up I was like that's my f [ __ ] listeners right there like
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that's those are my homies right there those are the boys doing the Lord's work getting me to be in Andrew McMahon's
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orbit so that was Bonkers bananas like truly Bonkers bananas he was so sweet that was before the concert even started
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so I was already like in a place like we got to chat for a minute he was like oh
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come back after the show come hang out and I was like I'm what we like threaten us for the good time me what do you mean
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what do you mean what are you talking about what H so we went the show was [ __ ] amazing guys if you were at that
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something corporate show like how [ __ ] awesome was that when he crowd surf oh my God it was at the road run R
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it was so good he crouched every single one of us in that room returned to a 16-year-old Andor six like Andor six if
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you are ash and Aiden uh at one point he said like I want you to like rock out like you are whatever age you are when
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you heard us for the first time so I was like 16 and Ash goes I'm going to rock out like I'm six and a goes I'm gonna
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rock out like I'm three Elena really indoctrinated us great did but yeah we got to talk to him
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after he wants to be on the show and I lost my mind I love that he wanted to be on the show and was like I shouldn't
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have asked that yeah we like I was like oh no I was going to ask you to be on the show he's like no I shouldn't I
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shouldn't have said that we're like no you absolutely should have guys he's so nice like Meet Your Heroes because it
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was so lovely he might be on the show in the he might be on the show that would be great hit him up some more I want to
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I feel like we could do something like fun with him oh absolutely we could we could do spooky thing with him I think
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it would be a lot of fun talk about the inspo for me in the moon I need to know what the inspo is for that it's Andrew
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McMahon and Something Corporate is very much the only other time besides ghost that I felt that way about music which
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is so funny because very app and oranges zebras and and apples they just they both hit the same way yeah and Tobias
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and Andrew both both hit in similar ways it's true it's it was a it was great so
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Andrew McMahon's really really kind Conor and his girlfriend Molly are beautiful humans they're our favorite
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listeners at the moment so step it up everyone just kidding but we really really appreciate it it was just such a
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cool experience and it was really fun to be able to be 16 again and belt out songs about angst oh my god when they
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played if you see Jordan oh my God felt right iconic felt right so yeah that was
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awesome and and again thank you guys for you know letting him know when we mention him like you're the real ones so
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we appreciate you we're so thankful for you yeah you rock it's it's a cool life walking into that room and seeing Andrew
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McMahon just sitting there I was unprepared it's the an understatement it's it's not lost on us how lucky we
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are it is not lost on us no when he said Andrew wants to meet you I said that's not real said qu that's not real Connor
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excuse me I literally when he said I was like what the [ __ ] are you talking about
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like what Conor you shut your mouth what are you talking don't you allow to me boy
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and he was like what like I'm not he's like he's right there and then we got to see our friend Jessica who we used to
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like go we used to we met Jessica and Kristen and Tanya at a Jack's Mannequin concert years and years and years ago it
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was the one when I was like 14 and I screamed I love you and Andrew McMahon's face and we went to concerts with them a
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bunch like Jack mannequin concerts like it was our thing like we would go every year to one or something like that and
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then we got to see our friend Jessica see her so it was great hi Jess hi Jess so oh it was just it was such a good
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night it really was like start to finish I'm surprised I didn't cry yeah it I'm still I'm not over it I'm not gonna I
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don't know that we ever think I'm going to be over it was a very very cool experience yeah and we just had to gush
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about it because we like to tell you about fun things and we wanted to say thank you because cuz you guys are the
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ones that are hitting them up every time we mention them which is just [ __ ] wild all right well I have a very very
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strange case today I remember I know it really did I'm sorry but I I remember hearing this case like
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years ago for the first time on my favorite murder shout out to Georgia and Karen shout out to Georgia and Karen
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it's the mysterious slver strange death of one Cindy James I know you know this one yes and if you if you are like a
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true crime fan True Crime afficianado I'm sure you've heard of this but I haven't listened to this case in a while
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I haven't like looked into it in a while and then I decided I wanted to and me and Dave were just like what the [ __ ]
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happened here yeah this is a very distressing case yeah and I'm sorry there's no answers yeah but it's still
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it fascinates me and I want this case to be solved and again it's very horrifying
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you always say there's always there's always hope there is always hope we're going to do this in two parts otherwise
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it would be like mind-bogglingly long yeah um so that I'm going to give you part one today and then part two will
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follow up uh what is it Thursday Friday Thursday Thursday right I don't I don't know where where I am what planet do we
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live on um who knows I'm I'm in outer space right now retweet all right well let's get into it so on June 8th
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oh June 8th 1989 so I was not alive yet not here and it this isn't good on June 8th 1989 a municipal worker discovered
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the body of 44 year-old 4 so Cindy James in the backyard of an abandoned home in
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Richmond British Columbia her body was found hog tied and she had a woman's stocking wrapped around her neck sorry I
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sneezed everybody okay bless you thank you uh two weeks earlier friends of Cindy had reported her missing when she
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failed to show up for a game of cards that they had planned and when authori searched her car they found blood and
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other signs that indicated she probably met with some kind of Foul Play yeah she's found hog tied hog tied and
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withing around yeah like what the fu how horrifying so after opening an investigation into Cindy's death
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investigators learned that for almost 10 years years leading up to her death Cindy James had been repeatedly
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reporting to Richmond police that she was a victim of harassment stalking assault even she actually even gave
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police threatening letters that had been sent to her and answering machine messages as evidence of what was
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happening but local police could never verify her story and they never really intervened much to protect her and it's
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like why isn't any like again I always say like I I feel like it's better to overreact that's the thing just
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overreact I think if it ends up being nothing yeah you've expended some time and some resources for sure that's
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that's not lost on me and that's not a small thing but it I mean there's a chance that you're going to save
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someone's life yeah exactly and I mean if it goes the other way that's a lot of bad press for your your agents there
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yeah but at first Cindy's death appeared to be the inevitable and obviously tragic conclusion of this yearslong
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series of harassment that she'd been going with through with an unknown doer but when investigators started digging
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into her personal history they found evidence that completely contradicted their initial assumptions and pointed
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toward a much stranger explanation for her death interesting I don't know here's the thing I know the very like um
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and this Happ a lot with me I know like the the generalized version of this I don't know a lot of the detailed details
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so I'm interested to see I don't know how I think it's just like my mind trying to preserve itself I had forgot
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about some of the details in and there something there some details in this Cas that are just like but let's
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back up a little bit and talk a little more about Cynthia's early life she was born uh Cynthia Elizabeth hack on June
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12th 1944 in Oliver British Columbia Canada she was the second of six children born to Otto and Tilly hack
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Otto and Tilly aren't those great names that's adorable and a like great couple name yeah just Otto and Tilly over there
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yeah so Otto grew up in a rural farming family his childhood was particularly hard he didn't really grow up with a lot
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of opportunities and as a pioneering family in the Peace River uh country of Alberta the hack family suffered some
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serious hardships including the loss of several children not one of the hack girls survived infancy oh that's so
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tragic not one of them because of that Cindy's birth was an especially exciting event for AO and Tilly she was the first
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hack girl to survive infancy since the beginning of the 1900s oh my god look what she went through I
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know that's awful it I hate to get like Paranormal and like Supernatural here but it makes you think that there's some
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kind of like Cur or something all I could think it's like that's not try like that really it's like holy [ __ ]
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just that many years and then the first girl to survive infancy like dies in such a tragic manner after an know that
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really is awful a year long ordeal too but after leaving the Army in uh November of 19 1945 Otto and Tilly moved
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to Richmond British Columbia where Otto attended University and Tilly ran a small Corner Store Tilly would later
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describe this period of their lives as difficult especially after the birth of two more children at the end of the
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1940s after Oto graduated with a degree in 1948 he took a job teaching English in Vancouver but just one year later A
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friend told him they pretty much convinced him to reinlist in the military luckily during the time that he
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reenlisted there weren't there was more like peacetime opportunities available because there wasn't like a ton of war
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going on yeah and once he reenlisted Otto took a position teaching at military training facilities in Canada
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and in Europe it turned out that he really loved his position and he turned it into like pretty much a lifelong
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career he'd spend the next 25 years committed to this until he retired in 1975 wow Auto yeah good for him but his
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career in the military meant that the hack family usually traveled from one place to another pretty often and a lot
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of times with very little notice yeah they could there was probably not a lot of time to sit the kids down and explain
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every single time you no not at all and sometimes they would only get to stay in
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one place for as little as one year before having to move on that's tough yeah in some cases the kids would stay
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in one location with their mom or a nanny while Otto lived somewhere else but in all cases like we were just
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saying it was a pretty destabilizing existence for the kids and the lack of Parental supervision prompted Cindy to
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take on more responsibility than she probably would have otherwise yeah she became really really protective over her
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brothers and sisters and a lot of times she would take blame or she would take on punishments for things that they did
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wrong so that they didn't have to face it yeah outside of the home she was a really good student took a lot of pride
00:16:15
in her grades she was also very stubborn very driven to succeed her father said I
00:16:20
don't know whether it's stubborn or determined she always wanted to be a nurse from the time she could crawl she
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had a gentle kind of attitude feeling personality oh she s sounds lovely she really does so while Otto and Tilly
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looked back on their family's early years as you know relatively normal for a family in the 1950s
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1960s Cindy felt a little bit differently oh she told a psychiatrist that there was a quote strong
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discouragement to even have friends at all oh she said we weren't allowed to bring them home or go to their place huh
00:16:50
and in her memory her early life was overshadowed by all that responsibility that she had to take like constantly
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taking care of her younger siblings keep up with housework she was kind of like a
00:17:02
kind of like a little mom at like a really early age and it wasn't low stakes chores like you know doing the
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dishes taking out the trash she said my father would run his fingers along Ledges to check if I had done the job
00:17:14
well enough oh that's very military it feels like it's super military and it's like leave that in the military I feel
00:17:21
like you don't need to bring that home to your kids like that's a lot of pressure yeah obviously a very different
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time especially when they're moving around so often it's like that's added pressure to keep like that all like prim
00:17:32
and proper yeah and it's also like kids are messy man let kids be kids it's just
00:17:37
the way of the world you got to let them be a little messy you teach them how to
00:17:40
clean up after themselves yeah and that's the way it is things are going to spill accidents are going to happen
00:17:45
eventually you're going to have your clean house back right you know but enjoy the messy house while you can and
00:17:50
it shouldn't all be on like the oldest girl to clean everything know like that's stupid you teach them to clean up
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after themselves to the best of their ages ability yeah you know but again very different time yeah but in addition
00:18:03
to all that the transient lifestyle of growing up in the military family made it really difficult for Cindy to make
00:18:08
friends so she grew up feeling really lonely especially when both or one or both of her parents were gone cuz
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sometimes it was just Auto and the mom would stay back to kind of like finish out until they could go on to the next
00:18:20
place sometimes both of them but sometimes the mom had to go and then it was they were just with a nanny and that
00:18:25
must be tough yeah you know yeah another prominent feature of the hack household
00:18:29
was ot's anger and occasionally explosive temper which got even worse when he was drinking heavily no and he
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usually was here I was being like good job I know not so good not so great Cindy's Brothers had a little bit of a
00:18:44
different opinion on their dad's drinking they just felt like it was one of those things that was like of the
00:18:49
time and a part of military life which I guess I can see that sort I can see why they thought that like they just
00:18:57
yeah they felt like it was of those things that was just like part of it all yeah her brother Doug said it's
00:19:03
something in the military the thing to do I didn't make a value judgment out of it but Cindy on the other hand always
00:19:09
struggled with her father's presence in their life to her it felt like he was really detached and really aloof when he
00:19:14
was around and when he wasn't it was just like kind of more peaceful but also she missed him yeah it was one of that's
00:19:22
really that's hard cuz it's such a a catch 22 it is exactly and the day her sister Melanie got got married Cindy
00:19:29
wrote in her diary the tension in the house was unbelievable dad put on his affable host act and everybody
00:19:34
congratulated him on having done such a good job oh that's really sad and she probably felt like oh yeah like he did
00:19:40
such a good job meanwhile like I'm the one that really like raised these kids you know yeah as they grew older Cindy
00:19:46
and her siblings they found ways to cope with their dad's drinking and sometimes
00:19:50
abuse but it was still a big part of their lives and a frequent topic of discussion among them a few of them like
00:19:57
Cindy's older brother Doug kind of found ways to justify or excuse 's Behavior which in and of itself is a coping
00:20:04
mechanism yeah for sure but Cindy and her sister kind of slowly put these emotional and eventually physical walls
00:20:11
up between themselves and their parents and mulg who wrote who killed Cindy James said Cindy had built an emotional
00:20:18
wall to keep her parents at Bay and never demolished it the rift between Cindy and her parents opened in her
00:20:23
adolescence and became unbridgeable in her adulthood oo that is really sad yeah I wrote so that's
00:20:30
good but the biggest shift in Cindy's relationship with her parents came in 1962 during two life-changing Events
00:20:38
first Otto was given the opportunity to move the family to Europe for a long period which was something that he had
00:20:44
actually dreamed of for a really long time but right before they were about to start prepping for this move Otto got a
00:20:51
telegram letting him know that his father brother and four nieces and nephews of his had been in a car
00:20:57
accident and not one of them survived oh that's awful so he lost multiple incredibly important family members in
00:21:07
an instant the news was obviously devastating and it made Otto pull away from his family even more and I'm sure
00:21:15
you know drink a little bit more yeah that's oh and that's really that's awful cuz they probably just wanted to help
00:21:20
him through it yeah exactly but I think he the only way he knew how to deal with
00:21:24
that was by isolating himself but then not long after the end uh the accident Cindy graduated from high school and she
00:21:31
told her parents she was not going to move to Europe with them she didn't want to go her brother Doug who was in
00:21:36
college at the time was planning to stay in Canada so Cindy saw no reason why she
00:21:40
shouldn't be allowed to do the exact same thing yeah but this decision that she made caused a huge argument between
00:21:46
her and her parents they absolutely refused to let her stay in Canada the fighting went on for months about this
00:21:52
topic until Otto and Tilly finally relented and agreed to let her stay behind on the condition that she and en
00:21:58
roll in school for the fall semester okay so she agreed she enrolled in the nursing program at Vancouver General
00:22:05
Hospital's nursing program but by the time she enrolled the program had filled up so she was placed on a wait list a
00:22:12
little bit of a loophole there oh and you wish you want to know though like would things be different if she had
00:22:18
gone to Europe I wonder would she have liked it there would she have stayed there yeah you know would this whole
00:22:24
thing have happened I know that's honestly a really good point yeah I don't I just always wonder those things
00:22:30
because I still don't know exactly what happened here I'm not it's my mind goes like back and forth to so many different
00:22:38
possibilities of what could have happened but in the meantime the hospital offered Cindy a nurse's aid job
00:22:43
until she was able to begin classes so at least she would get a little bit of experience in the industry yeah it
00:22:48
seemed like a pretty reasonable compromise for everybody involved but Cindy still resented her parents for
00:22:54
trying to control her life especially when they weren't really trying to control her brother yeah I know that's
00:23:00
hard yeah so she started cutting off a lot of communication with them despite that distance she did still check in
00:23:07
occasionally in the years that followed usually through letters and through phone calls Tilly recalled one letter
00:23:13
that she got in early 1965 that made her question if Cindy was actually doing as well emotionally as
00:23:20
she said she was doing in the letter Cindy said she met a young man at the hospital and they had gotten engaged but
00:23:26
he recently found out that he had terminal cancer Tilly said the letter was just strange in its detail and went
00:23:33
on she said uh there must have been 10 pages to the letter she wrote saying that one day they were skiing he went up
00:23:40
into the Mountain skiing and didn't come back what according to Cindy a search party eventually found her fiance in an
00:23:47
abandoned cabin on the mountain where he had shot and killed himself holy [ __ ]
00:23:52
yeah so Otto and til he found this letter not only disturbing but remarkably strange first of all they had
00:23:58
never heard Cindy mention a fiance before and they had just seen her a few months earlier during the holiday season
00:24:05
Otto said whether they were even engaged or not we don't know Cindy's brother Doug visited her in Vancouver a lot and
00:24:12
actually even hung out with her and some of her friends and he had never met or heard of this supposed
00:24:18
fiance that's interesting now years later he would he would say he never met the man but he did eventually hear the
00:24:24
story about the man's supposed suicide and all Doug remembered was Cindy telling him about the incident and quote
00:24:30
discussing suicide as a legitimate option for escaping an exential crisis interesting which is important to
00:24:37
remember yeah so if Cindy had been engaged to be married in the winter of 1965 she did manage to get over the loss
00:24:45
of this mysterious fiance pretty quickly when she met one Roy make piece in the summer of
00:24:51
1965 he was almost 20 years older than her he had come to Canada from South Africa where he left behind a wife and a
00:24:57
career as a psychiatrist oh yeah okay so that's something oh boy uh Cindy and Roy
00:25:04
dated for about a year before they got married in December of 1966 just after she graduated from the nursing program
00:25:11
at Vancouver General Hospital when Otto and Tilly received Cindy's letter about the marriage the letter about the
00:25:19
marriage oh they immediately disapproved of their daughter marrying someone almost twice her age Otto later said he
00:25:26
took advantage of her he saw this pretty girl and even though he was married with
00:25:29
two kids yeah he zeroed in and made it his principal objective to get her oh that's really upsetting yeah and they
00:25:37
were also pretty pissed about the fact that Cindy had gotten married so quickly first of all but hadn't even invited
00:25:43
them to her wedding told them after just told them afterwards they didn't know she was even dating this guy wow the
00:25:49
lack of invitation was just obviously another blow and really emphasized that growing distance between the family and
00:25:55
Cindy and the family was still living in Europe at the time so there was physical
00:25:59
distance and there was emotional distance definit emotional distance Otto wrote in a letter to Doug never before
00:26:05
in our 25 years together have I seen your mother so Disturbed and heart sick what really hurts us is the fact that
00:26:10
our own child decides to get married without seeking our counsel and most significantly without sharing with us
00:26:16
the joy of the monumentous moment let me tell you when that happens it is a blow
00:26:22
we had that happen in our family something very similar happened in our family it's [ __ ] up I don't know how
00:26:28
you do that to your your parents m i mean i didn't invite my mom to my wedding but that's very different but
00:26:35
when you have like actual like an actual relationship with your parents communicative relationship yeah I mean
00:26:41
we are only seeing this from what we can gather and from a side where she cannot
00:26:49
say mhm all the details so I will take it with a grain of salt that way and say I don't know all the ins and outs of
00:26:57
their relationship so perhaps there's more to that St something that is valid there yeah I I can only speak from the
00:27:06
experience of being on the other side of it when there wasn't a valid reason for
00:27:10
it and when it was like holy [ __ ] that's actually funny like not funny but you
00:27:14
know that you've experienced it one way and I've sort of experienced it the other with the same
00:27:19
person so that's even funny wow imagine that history repeats itself but well Cindy's parents may have been excluded
00:27:27
from her life at that Point Doug her brother still lived close by and he saw Cindy pretty often he actually got a
00:27:33
good impression from Roy makepiece and he said he was a quote real neat guy he was easy to talk to he really enjoyed
00:27:38
life he had a curious mind and was into everything I was into we hit it off right from the beginning well that's
00:27:43
nice that her brother liked him yeah at least there was that you know so to Doug
00:27:47
Roy seemed like a pretty good match for Cindy too he was stable he seemed happy and most importantly he wasn't at all
00:27:53
like their father that was one of the things that they noted like aof or detached was alof yeah exactly he didn't
00:28:00
seem to have any kind of like issue with alcohol I think that was a big thing that Cindy didn't want to get involved
00:28:07
in Cindy only had a few close friends so a lot of nights she and Roy spent together were also like she would play
00:28:14
cards with Doug and his wife Barb like that was kind of their friendship or they'd have a quiet night alone at home
00:28:19
so she didn't they didn't have like a lot of social group or anything like that exactly when Roy talked about the
00:28:25
early years of their marriage he said we were tramping around Cloud n together all right that's adorable I know I I
00:28:31
mean I'm I'm having trouble I know because of how this all began but like that's a cute statement it it's kind of
00:28:39
like a roller coaster that's like woo okay yeah cuz I was like o and I'm like a and then you might
00:28:47
go again brother because unfortunately that happiness that they had early on in their relationship didn't last very long
00:28:55
Roy said eventually that quote we were gross in debt at that stage of the game and obviously that took a toll on their
00:29:01
relationship when things did start to improve for them financially it was when Roy found uh work as an assistant
00:29:07
professor at the University of British Columbia but it also seemed that the Financial Security didn't do a lot to
00:29:14
improve their relationship he said when we only had each other we had a wonderful life as we started to get
00:29:20
solvent and acquire some possessions and things we had time and money for recreation and our interests
00:29:25
unfortunately were slowly shown to be 100 80° apart isn't that interesting yeah that like when they were
00:29:33
only the two of them everything was fine but as soon as like and it's like you never discussed your interests yeah well
00:29:41
I mean they only dated for one year before they got married like what were you which like I mean that happens and
00:29:48
it works out but that's the time to like discuss what you like what you don't like what you're into what you're not
00:29:53
into like but even the amount of stories that we've covered where like a couple gets married and one of them wants
00:29:59
children and the other doesn't yeah and you're like why didn't you discuss that I feel like that's a that's a big thing
00:30:04
before you get married but again everybody's different so yeah exactly but Cindy and Roy's social life had
00:30:10
always like I said been limited by Cindy's inability to make close friends because remember she didn't really grow
00:30:15
up learning how to make friends because one it's a skill yeah it is a skill and it's one thing she wasn't encouraged to
00:30:22
in fact she was kind of discouraged and like we know she was always moving from place to place before she really even
00:30:27
had a chance to make friends and was taking on more of like a caretaker role at a young age than being you know like
00:30:35
yeah it's important yeah definitely so Roy hoped that that wouldn't be a problem once they were able to get out
00:30:41
into the world and enjoy the money that he was making he thought it might come a
00:30:44
little easier but Cindy didn't really seem interested in outdoor activities or any of the other things Roy liked like
00:30:50
skiing and swimming yeah and the conflict and their social priorities only increased the tension that was
00:30:56
growing in their marriage anytime Roy would comment or criticize Cindy's housekeeping she would literally just
00:31:01
walk out of the house and disappear for hours instead of actually communicating why she felt so criticized and probably
00:31:09
triggered to when she lived at home I was going to say and I think she was also it's it sounds like that that was
00:31:15
kind of like her parents way of dealing with things was very aloof very detached
00:31:19
very if I'm mad about it I'm just not going to tell you why I'm going to move on and you know I'm going to like or I'm
00:31:25
going to remove myself from the situation yeah so it sounds like that's just what she knew exactly you know but
00:31:31
never leave during a fight never leave mad that's my that's my motto like never go to bed angry never leave angry cuz
00:31:39
you never know what could happen you don't you get hit by a car and then the last thing you have with somebody that
00:31:43
you love so much and they love you is a fight yeah and I know there's like there's some people that [ __ ] hate
00:31:48
when I give advice like life advice they hate it really um but if that life advice bums you out like you're the
00:31:55
problem I feel like that's pretty good life advice you're the problem so that's life advice from both of us it is that's
00:32:00
from Ash too you're the problem it's you but we love you anyway exactly but if but it I think that's pretty decent
00:32:06
generalized life advice don't go to bed or angry I feel like a lot of people like live by that advice right people
00:32:12
have [ __ ] that says that over their bed don't they always always kiss good night
00:32:16
oh okay you know don't go to bed angry that's the subtext don't go to bed pissed over my bed when you're still mad
00:32:24
anyway before long tensions turned into arguments obviously arguments turned into yelling fights [ __ ] was getting
00:32:31
Bleak Roy realized that Cindy was triggered though and he said in her mind I was being like Otto I thought I was
00:32:37
arguing my with my otherwise rational Provident wife my other adult but actually I was arguing with an
00:32:43
irrational little girl who had been terrified and I simply couldn't get her to listen to any reason at all that's
00:32:48
really sad it is after almost 10 years of marriage the tensions finally spilled over between them one evening after
00:32:54
Cindy had been antagonizing Roy he recalled that he probably said you stupid [ __ ] shut up oh [ __ ] you and
00:33:02
then hit her yeah [ __ ] you Roy yeah like straight up [ __ ] you I can see why things spoiled over at that point that's
00:33:09
so [ __ ] up yeah you stupid [ __ ] shut up I can't imagine hearing either of those
00:33:18
things that people I don't know if I've talked about this before people say shut
00:33:23
up so flippantly I think shut up is like one of the meanest things you could say
00:33:28
to somebody like if you're being like Oh my God shut up like like in Mean Girls that's one thing but when you're in a
00:33:34
fight or like you don't want to hear what someone is saying and you say shut up oh I think it's so degrading it it's
00:33:40
such a nasty way to shut someone down yeah and I I grew up hearing shut up so I think I specifically have like a like
00:33:48
my nervous system has a response where I like want to fight immediately [ __ ] up
00:33:52
but then to add you stupid [ __ ] onto that like what you're I can't imagine my husband ever calling me stupid or a
00:33:59
[ __ ] and definitely can't imagine the combination of both the Earth would swallow me like I the Earth would follow
00:34:06
someone yeah like that's I can't imagine that yeah how awful that would be to hear no I some care about and really
00:34:14
that was when Cindy was pretty muchy hit her done with the marriage that's the thing when he hit her yeah she never
00:34:20
forgave him for hitting her which I wouldn't either I wouldn't either and from that point forward their
00:34:25
relationship was just in a downward spiral of accusations and anger and finger pointing it was it was toxic
00:34:33
throughout the late '70s Cindy wrote about her rapidly evolving feelings toward her husband and her diary one day
00:34:39
she wrote woke up with a pounding headache and feeling very listless I hate Roy for destroying that for me too
00:34:44
he destroyed everything that was important to me just like he said he would if I left oh in that same diary
00:34:50
Cindy accused him of violent abuse and actually sexual assaults accusation she would later repeat to the police among
00:34:57
other claims that she would make against him including murder holy [ __ ] Yeah by
00:35:02
1980 any love between Cindy and Roy had completely evaporated at least as far as
00:35:07
Cindy was concerned she wrote for some reason images of Roy's face contorted in Anger keep intruding on my thoughts by
00:35:14
then she had come to see him as this like domineering force that was actually even worse than her father yeah and that
00:35:21
perception of him would only twist and degrade as time went on damn that's horrible now it should be said that
00:35:28
despite what what Cindy ended up writing in her in her diary about Roy and what she told police and her family about
00:35:33
them it's hard to know what's based in 100% truth he did hit her like he he he admits that he admits that which you're
00:35:41
done in my book but there are some things that seem to have been exaggerated based on some people's
00:35:47
beliefs I don't know necessarily if that's my belief because I don't know enough about their relationship but some
00:35:53
people felt that way okay according to Ian mgre there's no doubt that Roy loved Cindy very much he said but Roy carried
00:36:01
emotional baggage that weighed him down and made normal relationships difficult throughout his life I mean he left a
00:36:06
wife and two children yeah in a completely separate country he's got some emotional baggage that we don't
00:36:13
even know about exactly he also was an enthusiastic gun collector and was paranoid sometimes to the point of being
00:36:19
delusional and his interest in like Fringe psychology and bizarre beliefs tended to make him an outsider not only
00:36:26
in his personal life but in his professional life too and like we were just saying he also had a lot of guilt
00:36:33
and regret for leaving his ex-wife and children back in South Africa yeah and those feelings would only get worse once
00:36:39
his relationship with Cindy started to disintegrate cuz then it's like he left them and what for for for what this
00:36:45
situation exactly obviously not saying he was a great guy not saying he was innocent when it came to the abuse no
00:36:53
because he literally admitted hitting her but just highlighting that Roy's history and sometimes bizarre behavior
00:36:58
would make it easy to believe everything that Cindy said about him and eventually
00:37:03
it would muddy the facts with what happened next yeah I can see that so in the summer of 1982 after an especially
00:37:09
bad fight between Roy and Cindy they decided to separate temporarily with the hope and intention of working to repair
00:37:15
the marriage just a few months after separating though Cindy became preoccupied because she started getting
00:37:21
these obscene phone calls right around early October I just want to like trigger warning ahead of time some of
00:37:27
these get like very sexual in nature and kind of like upsetting disturbing yeah disturbing upsetting definitely so just
00:37:33
be forewarned she told the police sometimes the caller breathed heavily sometimes he spoke of sex sometimes M of
00:37:40
Mutilation and the caller who always sounded like a man always referred to her by her first name and spoke like he
00:37:46
knew her so Cindy reported these calls to Vancouver Police on October 12th but there wasn't really a lot they could do
00:37:52
remember this is the 80s yeah so the phone calls just persisted and one she received after she reported the
00:37:59
harassment the caller said so you think the police will keep you safe you wait I've got my zipper open ew yeah like I
00:38:06
told you obscene but Cindy hung up before he could go any further on October 13th just one day after
00:38:13
reporting the obain phone call she called the police again and she reported that she had gotten even more of these
00:38:18
phone calls since the previous night and now she actually believed that there was
00:38:22
a Prowler outside of her house holy [ __ ] according to Cindy she woke up when her
00:38:27
dog started started barking and she heard the knob on the back door rattling oh [ __ ] that like somebody was trying to
00:38:32
get into the house so this time two patrol cars were dispatched to the house and officers searched the area but they
00:38:38
didn't find anything unusual and didn't find any sign of a Prowler whatsoever but Cindy was still terrified so that
00:38:45
night she packed a small bag and went to stay with her friends she was like [ __ ]
00:38:48
that I'm not staying here now there were several more reported incidents of harassment in the days that followed on
00:38:55
October 15th she reported to Vancouver Police that somebody had thrown a rock through her kitchen window holy [ __ ] on
00:39:02
the 19th officers were again dispatched to Cindy's home this time for a report of somebody actually having broken into
00:39:08
the house they searched the house and the only evidence they found was a pillowcase of some sentimental value
00:39:15
that had been slashed with either a knife or scissors which is so bizarre yeah when officers asked if there was
00:39:21
anybody she could think of that would be targeting her for this harassment she mentioned that she just separated from
00:39:26
her husband but she did say she couldn't imagine Roy breaking in just to do something that trivial like and Petty as
00:39:33
destroying a pillow in the report the responding officer noted there was no indication of forced entry and no dust
00:39:40
has been Disturbed on window sills apparently the only possible entry would be with a key or by slipping the front
00:39:45
lock nothing Disturbed or taken which I wouldn't say nothing's Disturbed cuz the
00:39:50
pillowcase is hella Disturbed it's just very weird it's also very chilling yeah isn't that it's like a Sentimental one
00:39:57
it's like somebody knows that yeah exactly that's somebody who knows you and knows that that pillowcase is
00:40:03
sentimental to you like that's so specific yeah so according to Ian Mulgrew the responding officer on the
00:40:09
break-in call Pat McBride was quote Smitten by the shy timid woman who had obviously who was obviously Shattered by
00:40:15
the Breakin in fact a few days later MC Brad returned to Cindy's house this time
00:40:20
on a social visit where he installed uh new dead bolts on the doors for her he returned to check on Cindy several times
00:40:27
s in the days that followed and in no time they started dating oh McBride was careful to keep a low profile obviously
00:40:33
given the circumstances of their first meeting but one week after the alleged Breakin Cindy found the first of many
00:40:40
notes waiting for her on her back porch when she got home from work one night the note read and it doesn't really make
00:40:47
any sense but it's gross it says us you love want rotten love silence hot sex whoa yeah that's a lot of different
00:40:56
feeling all at once the rotten part of it is rotten and silence huh rotten and silence stick out to me a lot yeah
00:41:04
forensic investigators checked the note for and the envelope for fingerprints but there were none to be found after
00:41:11
discovering the note Pat McBride asked Cindy if he could quote stay a few days with her until he found a place and she
00:41:16
agreed okay they had only been seeing each other for a few weeks at that point but things had been going well between
00:41:22
them and if nothing else she figured she'd have somebody there to protect her if the prowler was going to return and a
00:41:28
cop at that so yeah I get it it's probably good but it turned out that Cindy and Pat McBride wouldn't have to
00:41:34
wait very long for another suspicious event just a few nights after he had moved in McBride found Roy makepiece
00:41:40
sitting in his car in an alley behind Cindy's house with two loaded guns what Cindy had told Roy about the harassment
00:41:48
that she was going through so he had come by in the hope that he might catch whoever was harassing her this wasn't
00:41:54
the first time that he had tried to catch whoever was doing this to Cindy a couple weeks earlier she woke up in the
00:41:59
middle of the night to find Roy knocking at her bedroom window armed with a rifle
00:42:03
and a large hunting knife according to him he was quote unquote on guard and planed to protect her should anybody be
00:42:10
Ling around the house McBride told Roy to go home and to not come around with gun guns anymore but the incident
00:42:17
actually just made him think that it was Roy who was responsible for the notes and phone call yeah I mean I can see why
00:42:22
that would be a little concerning yeah absolutely me too yeah so for the first few weeks Cindy alone experienced the
00:42:29
harassment but eventually there were I guess you could say like witnesses to her ordeal at various times in late 1982
00:42:37
and early 1983 neighbors recall seeing unfamiliar men in the neighborhood and one neighbor saw a man enter Cindy's
00:42:45
yard but none of them reported seeing the men do anything like suspicious Beyond lurking men like several yeah
00:42:53
several several unfamiliar men in the neighborhood and one man enter her yard weird and they said like they didn't see
00:43:01
them doing anything suspicious but lurking is suspicious in my opin suspicious now similarly Pat McBride was
00:43:08
at home when one of those harassing no talk calls came in later he suggested that quote the call may have come from
00:43:15
the airport since he heard a woman's voice on a public address system in the background oh interesting but the caller
00:43:20
never said a word huh the calls and notes continued for about a year while Cindy and Pat were continuing dating
00:43:27
until that point it hadn't occurred to him that dating a woman who was regularly making reports of crimes to
00:43:32
the police um might be a conflict of interest could be but eventually it became impossible to ignore and it
00:43:40
became impossible to ignores the ways where his personal and professional lives were having a negative effect on
00:43:46
one another yeah for example every time Cindy would report a harassing phone call or a new obscene or threatening
00:43:52
letter he couldn't help but notice the lack of evidence or specific in the harassment according to Ian Mulgrew
00:44:00
whenever MC Brad would point out the lack of evidence to support her claims Cindy quote acted like a petulant little
00:44:05
girl at the slightest insinuation he didn't believe her okay which I mean I get cuz if you're dating
00:44:13
me and I'm telling you this is happening and I'm terrified and I don't really have any answer as to why there's no
00:44:19
evidence but I still feel like it's happening and you're telling me it's not or it's weird what the [ __ ] are you
00:44:25
doing to help the situation other than just making me feel bad about it that's the thing like I feel like it's I feel
00:44:31
like sexism is a is a theme in this story yeah like call like like calling her a petulant little girl I don't think
00:44:38
that's fair I don't think that's it I think she's pissed that you don't believe her and I think she's a woman
00:44:42
who's scared yeah and if you're dating her especially yeah you should be like you know what I believe you first and
00:44:48
foremost until there's reason not to and I'm sorry but you signed up for this knowing full well what the [ __ ] was
00:44:55
going on you were the responding officer yeah so you know what you like you knew
00:44:59
what you were getting into that's shitty so in December 1982 a little over two months after meeting Cindy asked Pat to
00:45:05
move out telling him the relationship was quit unquit becoming more than she was ready to deal with he was
00:45:10
heartbroken but he respected her decision and he moved to his own apartment but he did keep a key to the
00:45:15
house so that he he could check the mail when she was out of town or working or something even though they weren't
00:45:21
living together they did keep dating and at the same time Cindy did also carry out casual relationship with her husband
00:45:29
Roy makepiece oh boy because they were still married yeah forgot about that it's complicated so the obscene calls
00:45:35
and letters continued into the new year when according to Cindy the harassment escalated to violence oh um this is
00:45:44
very dark and Trigger warning okay in her statement to the police she had been at home on the night of January 27th
00:45:51
when there was a knock at the door she thought it was Pat coming by for a visit so she opened the front door and was
00:45:57
immediately grabbed by a man who dragged her into the garage where there was a second man waiting she said that she
00:46:02
struggled with both men during which her hand was slashed with the knife once they knocked her to the floor one of the
00:46:08
men wrapped a black stocking oh around Cindy's neck and started choking her she said until she passed out she told
00:46:16
believe she really couldn't remember what happened because she was kind of slipping in and out of Consciousness oh
00:46:20
[ __ ] and this is specifically rough so just so you know she remembered quote one of the men inserted what she thought
00:46:26
was a knife into her vagina and threatened to slice open her abdomen holy [ __ ] yeah and she passed out after
00:46:36
that happened and when she came to they were gone and she was just lying alone on her garage floor is there was there
00:46:43
evidence that that's what happened okay so when the report was made my God that's yeah dark unb dark and awful when
00:46:53
the report was made to police Cindy was asked to be evaluated by a physician to collect any evidence of sexual assault
00:46:59
like you were just asking but the doctor later reported finding no evidence of assault or injury at all to her vagina
00:47:06
oh but still the escalation in the harassment gave the case more priority within the Vancouver Police Department
00:47:13
and the assault case was assed to detective David Boer Smith a veteran detective with the
00:47:19
force he was immediately suspicious of Cindy's reports including the assault due to the fact that they all lacked
00:47:26
evidence and none of them could be verified yeah it's very interesting that there's no evidence no evidence
00:47:32
whatsoever espe I mean when when somebody is violated in that way when they when she said a knife yeah what she
00:47:39
believed to be a knif sh that's I it's hard because it's like well was it something else yeah but then it looks
00:47:46
like there was no evidence of that but then there's no evidence of anything and I don't really
00:47:50
know like what other thing you could not leave injury you know well no injury right if you're yeah it's just awful all
00:48:02
that is awful but that's the thing and even the violent assault which should have left more than a superficial
00:48:09
scratch on her hand was missing any physical evidence of having occurred so uh Bower Smith trusted Pat McBride who
00:48:16
vouched for Cindy so he was willing to set aside his own skepticism and proceed like the reports were all genuine claims
00:48:23
which is I guess how you should go about it you definitely I think so there was also the matter though of Cindy's very
00:48:28
believable fear of another attack in fact she was actually so terrified of anything else happening that she refused
00:48:35
to return to the house and she actually moved back home to where she lived with Roy where they shared their house
00:48:40
together and he moved into the basement oh so unfortunately the move to Roy's house didn't improve the situation
00:48:47
within a few weeks the threatening notes began again they said all kinds of [ __ ] up things and Cindy reported this
00:48:53
new batch of notes cuz there was more than one they were coming like every every couple days it sounds like Jes so
00:48:58
she reported the new batch of notes to Bower Smith who was again suspicious and unable to shake the feeling that
00:49:05
something about Cindy's story just wasn't quite right the thing that he couldn't get past was her unwillingness
00:49:11
to even consider that Roy makepiece could be the perpetrator because to him and nearly everybody else she talked to
00:49:17
about the harassment Cindy's ex-husband wasn't just the most likely suspect but he also had the means and he knew her
00:49:24
schedule well enough to perpetrate these crimes without being seen and he wouldn't have been like like it wouldn't
00:49:31
his presence wouldn't have been alarming to the neighbors he they know him yeah the alternative though was that Cindy
00:49:36
had been targeted by an obsessed psychotic stranger which even in 1983 law enforcements knew was unusual yeah
00:49:43
so they didn't really know where to go with this oh my God and that's where we're going to wrap up for part one part
00:49:50
two gets absolutely [ __ ] Bonkers please hold on to your butts it get this is already like what the
00:49:58
hell's going on here and I still don't know it's it's a case I remember the first time I heard it it was I was
00:50:06
listening to my favorite murder it was like it was years ago it was like when I first started listening to them and this
00:50:11
case has just stuck in the back of my mind for so long I was like oh my God we've never covered that one yeah it's
00:50:18
just interesting and I'm I'm I'm interested to see like what people have to say about it listening to our
00:50:23
coverage I want to I want to I wonder what people think yeah I just want to know what the weirdos like what their
00:50:28
theories are cuz I am just flabbergasted I'm flabbergasted I have no idea what to
00:50:34
think I'm horrified and I remember when I first when I first heard about this I was like well it's probably your
00:50:39
ex-husband but then I remember at a certain point I was like I don't know yeah I don't know it's just it's too
00:50:46
weird yeah this is a strange one and a very upsetting one it is very upsetting I'm sorry luckily um I think this one is
00:50:52
going to be followed by a fun guest collab and then a listener tale so yeah so there you go yeah it'll be ni little
00:50:59
bre for a minute yeah so with that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird
00:51:08
that you don't believe somebody when they tell you that you're being attacked or that they're being attacked yeah just
00:51:13
believe them yeah and don't hit your life yeah don't do that [Music] [Music] [Music]