00:00:00
Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. >> I'm Ash. >> And this is Morbid. Morbido in the house. Morbid.
00:00:22
>> What the [ __ ] is up, Kyle? So much is up. So much is up. In fact, so much is
00:00:28
up. Uh, but you know what? There was a brief reprieve of joy. >> There you go. >> Because I got to go to the ghost.
00:00:36
>> Like you said, it's important to experience joy right now. >> It is. You need enjoy the things that
00:00:40
make you happy. You're allowed to. And it will keep us all >> sane so that we can
00:00:45
>> fight fight against the machine. >> You need it. You need to a little bit of your cup filled or you're going to be
00:00:52
running on empty. It's the same as parenting. You need to fill your own cup to be a better parent,
00:00:56
>> of course. Uh, so just like try to do that. But yeah, I got to go to the Ghost
00:01:00
concert in Connecticut and it was as magical as it always is. >> I love that. >> And I got to meet some of you and you
00:01:08
were awesome. Shout out to Deb and Bonnie and Chelsea. >> Liz, look at you. >> I I said she's famously bad at
00:01:15
remembering names. >> I will forget some and it has nothing to do with the importance of the person.
00:01:19
>> Of course not. I am just like my brain doesn't work this way and I will as I'm
00:01:24
talking to the person forget the name they just told me >> because I'm so I'm so focused on having
00:01:31
a conversation for me is like a lot >> I think you have ADHD. >> Yeah. There's a lot happening in here
00:01:37
like in this brain. So like I like there's a lot going on that makes it >> different. So, I'm so concentrated on
00:01:46
like the conversation aspect and like be a normal human, >> ask questions, respond correctly that I
00:01:53
forget the name. >> Nobody wants you to be a normal human. >> And and that for that I'm grateful
00:01:57
because I'm not and it's really hard to be and sometimes I struggle. >> So, >> just be cool. Don't be all uncool.
00:02:02
>> Well, that I was like, you know what? Don't forget the name because you're concentrating on trying to like become a
00:02:08
real human. So I said, "Remember these names because they were cool people and they were cool people. You were cool
00:02:14
people." And it was really fun to see you. And I love seeing people at ghost concerts that listen to Morbid because
00:02:19
it's such like a >> little snuggly little family feeling at those concerts that it just like
00:02:25
>> I don't know. It was fun. And I think Deb told me like the Deb that I met. >> Oh yeah.
00:02:30
>> Not Debb. >> Not Dubdub. Although I did bring Debb to her first Ghost concert. It was pretty
00:02:36
amazing. >> Obviously like I like concerts. I agree. We talked about this where they lock up
00:02:41
your phones. It's just nice to not have to see a million phones in here. >> But I so wish that you could have gotten
00:02:47
a little bit of video at of Deb at the concert. Yes. >> Yeah. She loved it. We got a convert.
00:02:53
>> Uh but Deb the not Deb Debb who I met said that she found morbid through ghost.
00:03:00
>> Wow. >> So the other way around. >> Oh [ __ ] which I my biggest flex in life
00:03:06
is when somebody says >> I heard about Ghost from your podcast like that is >> becoming a doortodoor missionary for
00:03:14
Ghost is really great >> now it's going both ways >> but now that it went the other way I was
00:03:18
like whoa we've reached a new apex cuz they said they heard the Tobias episode like one of the interviews and were like
00:03:24
I'm going to listen to this >> level >> I was like wow flex okay I like it >> let's go
00:03:30
>> um it was great though she gave me a bracelet that says rats Oh, it's like the ERA store.
00:03:34
>> Yep. Era store. Oh, they had a bracelet making station in the VIP area. >> But like a gothy god bracelet making
00:03:41
station. >> Did you make a bracelet? >> I did. And then I broke it accidentally.
00:03:45
>> Uh cuz I'm not that crappy. >> It was just so full of joy. >> It was a exploded. It was honestly it's
00:03:51
the most joyful time. >> Um they were great. Everybody was great. Shout out to all of them
00:03:57
>> and shout out to their team for always hooking us up with >> I know their team is very
00:04:00
>> The seats were [ __ ] amazing. I felt so like grateful. I was like, "Shit, I just get to be here."
00:04:06
>> So, >> Moheaggan Sun is the randomst concert venue in my opinion, but it's such a
00:04:11
good concert venue. It is. >> I saw Stevie Nicks there and I felt like we were best friends because I was so
00:04:16
intimate. >> It's very intimate no matter where you're sitting. Really? >> Yeah, it really is. And shout out to
00:04:22
everybody there and especially the band because I was like, >> it was 400° in that place. It was so
00:04:29
[ __ ] hot. Well, cuz it's like all enclosed and then Ghost does like pirate. There was pirate
00:04:33
>> fire at time, but you could see and he I think Tobias mentioned it like several
00:04:38
times like, "Holy [ __ ] I'm hot." Like it >> because he also has like all the like
00:04:43
prosthetics on his face, too. >> Well, and he doesn't have prosthetics anymore, but he has that mask. And I
00:04:48
think it's >> on your face. >> The costume changes are a lot of clothing. Yeah, >> I felt like the the Nameless Ghouls are
00:04:54
all wearing like full body suits. Oh my god. >> And I was like I felt so bad and they're
00:04:59
just moving a lot and doing a lot. So >> yeah, it's exerting like a lot of energy.
00:05:02
>> I was sweating and I know everybody else was. So I can't imagine how they felt.
00:05:06
But they've [ __ ] killed it. >> That's one thing I love about winter so much. Every time I complain about being
00:05:10
cold, I'm like, "Oh, I'm not sweating though. >> I'm not sweating. I'm not sweating. I
00:05:13
hate being hot." >> Oh, it's the worst feeling in the world. >> But it was great. It was a great time.
00:05:19
>> Highly recommend it. Hey, >> if you can get to one, I think they're in like Canada now, though.
00:05:23
>> So, Canada. >> I say that like no one's in Canada. Like, I think they're in Canada now, so
00:05:28
you can't go. >> People in fact are leaving here and going there. >> So, if you're in Canada, go if you can.
00:05:34
>> It's a great time. >> I was trying to think of something Canadian to say about like going to
00:05:38
Ghost, but >> hey, >> there you go. Always, >> you know, >> we love Canada. >> Go to Ghost.
00:05:42
>> We love Canadians. >> Ghost, >> you know, shout out to Jordan nighttime podcast.
00:05:46
>> Sorry, >> all the Canadians. We love famous uh famous famous teacher of uh >> history at Sunnydale.
00:05:54
>> Yep. We love Johnny and Tyler. That's spooky. >> Listen to that spooky. >> Yeah, Canadians are great.
00:06:00
>> I love that. What else do we have? I thought we had something else to say. >> I haven't been doing a lot lately. The
00:06:05
only thing that I have to offer you today is that I put my laptop on my lap this morning and I said, "What the [ __ ]
00:06:11
is that lump on my leg?" And I promptly flipped over my laptop and found a crushed baby bell cheese wrapper on the
00:06:19
bottom of my laptop. And I looked up at Alina and I said, "I'm disgusting." And I said, "I'm a peanut butter baby."
00:06:27
It was just I don't have a >> How did it like become one with my computer like that? It was nuts.
00:06:33
>> I was like, "You are reckless." >> No, it really was. One thing about me, I'm a very like don't don't think I'm
00:06:40
gross cuz I don't get it twisted. I'm a very clean person at my house. Like my home is very tidy.
00:06:46
>> Yeah. >> Here, >> not at all. This couch that I'm sitting at. Look at this. There's just [ __ ]
00:06:51
everywhere. Like >> what is What are these rogue napkins? Why is a phone in the middle of the
00:06:57
cushion seats? Chapstick. Just a random package of chapstick. >> We all need that right now.
00:07:02
>> And then don't even look in this corner next to me. This empty glass from 3 days
00:07:05
ago. Don't worry, it was just filled with water. But what the [ __ ] What is wrong with me?
00:07:10
>> It's pretty intense. >> I don't I don't live here. So, >> yeah. You know, I do, but not in this
00:07:14
room. >> I don't live in this room. >> I would respect your space in a home way.
00:07:19
>> It's true. Yeah. You know, we all It's It's just one of those things, you know.
00:07:23
>> It is. If you're looking for more joy, maybe you could pre-order my book. >> Oh, more joy. More joy. More literacy.
00:07:31
More >> more literacy. [ __ ] work. Um, oh, >> do do it. Butcherleacy.com. Pre-order it. It's coming out August
00:07:39
11th. It's the third one in the series. You can grab The Butcher and the Ren and
00:07:42
the Butcher Game, too, if you want to give it a try. There's audio books for those two. There will be an audio book
00:07:47
for the third one. >> Barnes & Noble has signed versions. >> Barnes & Noble has exclusive signed
00:07:52
copies. I'm currently signing a ton of them. So, >> I saw them at your front door.
00:07:56
>> There's big boxes of of sheets to sign. So, I'm I'm >> You better start rolling those wrists
00:08:01
out. >> And I'll, you know, I'll sign as many books as I can. So, if you want those
00:08:05
signed copy copies, guys, go get them from Barnes & Noble. And if they run out, >> she'll probably do more.
00:08:11
>> Maybe I'll sign some more, but you got to get them to run out first. >> Here's the thing. Me and Mikey are
00:08:15
always yelling at Alina cuz we're always like, "You put so much on your plate anytime signed editions run out." And
00:08:20
they're like, "Do you want to do 2,000 more?" She's like, "Yeah, that's no problem." Like, you have to sign all of
00:08:26
those. Yeah, >> I respect the game. I respect the >> always anytime. So, yeah, go do that
00:08:33
because it's great and it's fun and it's fictional. >> It is fictional. >> So, lose yourself in a fictional world.
00:08:41
>> And also, again, I got to shout out um [ __ ] Fantasma, the book I'm reading right now. So fun.
00:08:47
>> Really, >> I'm telling you guys, read it. It's a fun book. It's getting me into like a
00:08:50
new genre. I think >> I'm in a place of new genre, but we're in very different places of new genre.
00:08:54
Mine's still horror related. >> Mine's not at all. I'm fully in a romance era right now. I'm reading a lot
00:09:01
of that for you. >> I'm reading a lot of Emily Henry. I think she's [ __ ] great.
00:09:05
>> Hey, look at that. Shout out to Emily Henry. >> I'm reading Happy Place right now. It's
00:09:09
a little spicy. >> Oh, there you go. >> I've never been a spicy book reader in my life.
00:09:13
>> I love that for you. Fantasma is very spicy. So, >> little dark dark spice. >> Yeah, it's like dark romanticy horror
00:09:19
adjacent. Fun. >> Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I'm all over the place in my reading journey, but
00:09:24
it's fun. >> Um, one more very quick thing before we move on. I need to tell you that you you
00:09:29
did something weird when you mentioned Center Stage. >> Oh, yeah. >> Um, on The Pit, I think it's episode 3,
00:09:34
which I've been telling Elena to watch The Pit. It's so good, but she has kids, so it's hard to watch shows.
00:09:38
>> I know. It's just one It's on the list. >> It's also a very intense show to watch
00:09:41
at night, and I understand that you don't you're not like flying into it. >> Yeah.
00:09:44
>> Um, one of the actresses from Center Stage was like a side character. >> What the [ __ ] for literally like the
00:09:51
briefest moment. >> What? >> Yeah. Uh I was listening to Se this morning and Carrie was talking about it.
00:09:56
Why did Center Stage suddenly become Who is it? Jod in Center Stage. >> Jodie. Yeah. She's the main character.
00:10:01
>> Yeah. I haven't seen Center years. So what's the actress? Jod Center Stage. What's her Amanda Schill or Yeah. Sh.
00:10:10
She was just randomly in the pit. Holy [ __ ] Like a super quick appearance. >> That's so weird. And it was it probably
00:10:18
was right around the time that you said you watched it because it was last week's episode.
00:10:22
>> Oh my god, that's really weird. >> Isn't that bizarre? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I was when I listened to Sup this
00:10:26
morning, I was like, "Oh my god, I have to tell Alena." >> Why is Center Stage suddenly It's It's
00:10:30
weird when that happens a lot. It like locks up like that. >> It makes you feel like life is a
00:10:35
simulation. >> It does feel like that a lot because I'm like, "What the [ __ ] Center Stage."
00:10:39
>> Yeah. >> Again, I highly recommend watching those old ass movies from the 90s and early as
00:10:44
it early in your mornings. while lighting candles. >> I walked in this morning and she was
00:10:49
watching Scream. >> Yeah, I had Scream on >> while I was like trying to write a write
00:10:54
a chapter. >> Let's go >> in something. >> What? >> Yeah, >> that's all she can say.
00:11:00
>> I said elaborate. Except I know you can't. >> Um, one more thing before we get into
00:11:05
the story. [ __ ] ice. Abolish ice. We hate ice. Thank you so much. >> Um, and yeah. Um, stop defending them
00:11:11
like you're they're your mom. >> Yeah, it's weird. >> Uh, so so that that's just how we feel.
00:11:15
Thank you. >> And it's our podcast so we can say it. So yeah. So [ __ ] Ice. Let's go.
00:11:20
>> Let's go. >> So [ __ ] real ice because it's really icy here as well. >> I Oh my god. I didn't even tell you. It
00:11:27
was so embarrassing. I ate [ __ ] in my driveway the other day. I have a booty bruise. I went down hard on my body.
00:11:35
Like cuz it was There was You fall often in the winter, >> [ __ ] >> I feel like every winter you fall.
00:11:40
>> [ __ ] take out in the winter. I fall often. I fall. I fell the other day in my little garden.
00:11:47
>> I'm always worried for you in the winter. >> It's okay. I'm going to be one of those
00:11:50
old people that they're like, "Yeah, she just fell." Like, she wasn't drunk. She
00:11:54
wasn't on a substance. >> I'm going to have to keep a close eye on you when you're old.
00:11:58
>> I know. I'm going to get a walker as soon as I turn 60, maybe 50. >> We're going to have to watch those hips.
00:12:03
>> Yeah. Well, this one this one was just like it was going to it could have happened to anybody, really.
00:12:08
>> Cuz there was ice underneath the snow. >> Oh, that [ __ ] me up every time. I went
00:12:12
to walk around the side of the car. That's the other thing. I could have hit my dome on the back of the car, but I
00:12:16
was all right. >> Oh, I'm glad you lived through it. >> One thing about me, I [ __ ] love when
00:12:20
other people fall, but I also love when I fall, so it works out. >> You can appreciate it.
00:12:24
>> So, yes, [ __ ] all kinds of ice, but specifically >> the organization. >> All right, so we're actually This is an
00:12:31
interesting case that I hadn't heard of before. It was obviously a Dave suggestion. And
00:12:36
>> Dave, this is a very devastating case, obviously, cuz it's morbid. Yes. >> Um, but it's just interesting that I
00:12:43
hadn't heard about this before cuz it's kind of like big time a little bit. >> Big time.
00:12:47
>> It's like medium time a little bit. >> Medium time. Okay. >> It just, you know, we'll get there. So,
00:12:52
we're going to be talking about the Hitman murders which involve Lawrence and Millie Horn.
00:12:57
>> Okay. >> Who you might not know, but you'll be shocked that you don't know them, maybe.
00:13:01
>> Yeah. So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horn worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest
00:13:08
record labels like Mottown Records and Hot Wax Records. >> Wow. >> Which is like huge. Yeah.
00:13:15
>> Mottown Records was massive. >> Damn. >> So during the golden age of like funk
00:13:19
and R&B, his name appeared in the credits of some of the era's biggest hits like the Temptations. My girl,
00:13:26
>> my girl, my girl, my girl talking about my girl. My girl. >> Oh, we we just paused to sing the entire
00:13:35
song. I was just so I was just so tempted to continue on. >> It's such a It's such a vibe song.
00:13:41
>> It is. Well, you can thank Lawrence for part of it. He was also um in the credits of Junior Walker in the All-Star
00:13:47
Shotgun. >> Damn. >> I'm not familiar with that song. >> I can't sing that one. >> Okay. Uh but behind his fame and
00:13:53
notoriety, he was hiding a sometimes very volatile personality that few rarely got to see.
00:13:59
>> Okay, >> but before we get into that, let's talk about who he was in his earlier life.
00:14:03
>> Let's go. >> He was born April 18th, 1940 in Detroit. One of two children born to Pauline
00:14:08
Horn. When he was born, his mom was running a modeling school in Detroit, and she worked with a lot of the local
00:14:14
performers to develop their musical and dance talents. So, his kind of like like
00:14:19
the industry was in his blood. You know what I say this was just like from the jump.
00:14:22
>> Yeah. Years later, Pauline's daughter, Elaine, would follow in her mother's footsteps, going after a career in dance
00:14:28
and eventually traveling with her husband, famous ventriloquist William Tyler, who apparently had a popular act
00:14:34
with a dummy named Lester. >> I'm interested. >> Lester the Dummy. >> Lester the Dummy.
00:14:39
>> Okay. I A ventriloquist act will get me sometimes. >> It will get me because it has such a
00:14:47
spooky vibe to it. It does. inherently even when it's not spooky. >> Yeah. It's just there.
00:14:52
>> Something about it is spooky. >> And it's also just incredible that people can fully project without moving
00:14:57
their mouth. >> I don't understand how they do it. >> I don't either. >> That's why I think that's what it is.
00:15:01
It's like something mysterious and like mystical. Yeah. >> And feels like it shouldn't be
00:15:07
happening. >> Yes. All of the above. Correct. Well, after graduating from high school
00:15:11
in 1958, Lawrence did a brief stint in the Navy, and that's where he actually trained in radio communications, and he
00:15:17
got experience working as a radio man on the aircraft carrier, the USS Lake Champlain. Yeah.
00:15:23
>> So, when he returned home in the early 60s, Detroit had become one of the hottest cities in America. The auto
00:15:29
industry provided hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs, and black workers at this time couldn't really expect a
00:15:36
great wage most places. But in the auto industry, they could expect a nice wage.
00:15:40
>> Yeah. >> So, fresh out of the Navy, Lawrence did need a job. But like I said, he came
00:15:45
from a family with strong roots in the entertainment industry. So, life on the assembly line and auto plants really
00:15:50
wasn't what he was looking for. >> Yeah. He was looking to get into the industry.
00:15:54
>> Exactly. But luckily, cars were not the only thing that Detroit had become known
00:15:58
for while he was away. as the home of Mottown Records. It had also at this point become a hub for like soul and
00:16:04
rhythm and blues singers and for black artists in particular. >> So according to Lawrence, he managed to
00:16:10
land the job with Mottown Records based on his experience as a DJ on the Champlain where he was known by the
00:16:16
moniker LT, the tall cool one, your man with the plan. >> That just rolls off the tongue.
00:16:22
>> I said that's suave as [ __ ] >> That is that is suave as [ __ ] >> You got to like tighten it up a little
00:16:27
bit, but it's suave. I'll give it. >> Does it Does it need a little trimming? Maybe. But it honestly sounds great.
00:16:33
>> You got You kind of have to decide between like the tall cool one and your man with the plan.
00:16:37
>> Yeah, you can be both those things, but maybe just leave one to the imagination.
00:16:41
>> Yeah, exactly. >> What would you What would you pick? >> Probably you should pick the man with
00:16:46
the plan because that's an inner thing that people don't know yet. The tall cool one. I can see that right away.
00:16:50
>> Yeah, you could give that off. >> You don't have to tell me that. >> You give off that energy.
00:16:53
>> Yeah. If I see a tall cool man, I know that. And as a DJ, the man with the plan, like he's got a plan for this
00:16:59
[ __ ] ax that's about to blow your mind apart. >> You better get ready. >> Sit down.
00:17:04
>> So in 1962, Mottown wasn't as huge as it would become in later years. It was actually really just a small recording
00:17:10
studio in the garage of company president Barry Gordy. >> That's awesome. >> So Gordy was willing to take a risk on
00:17:16
Lawrence at this point. And he also Lawrence got the reference of a friend of his mom. So Gordy hired him as an
00:17:22
audio technician at $50 a week, which back then was a good chunk of change. >> Yeah.
00:17:27
>> So within 2 years, Mottown Records had become a music industry giant. They moved right out of that garage. They had
00:17:34
the Temptations, Martha and the Vandelas, The Supremes, Smoky Robinson. >> Jesus.
00:17:40
>> Ever heard of them? >> A stacked lineup. >> Truly. And they were all just scoring
00:17:45
hit after hit after hit for the label. So, as the label grew, obviously, so did Lawrence Sahorn's bank account and his
00:17:52
reputation. >> Yeah. >> In their heyday, there were quote unlimited expense accounts and trips to
00:17:57
New York. Barry Gordy, it was the Plaza Hotel, limos, Porsches, Dom Perinan, Perion, I don't know how you say that,
00:18:04
and a company card. >> Damn, >> they were living. >> That sounds lit. They were [ __ ]
00:18:10
living. >> They were filthy rich. >> Limos, Porsches, Don Perin. >> Pinaman. So for Lawrence, who'd grown up
00:18:18
the poor son of a modeling instructor and a baker, that success was obviously intoxicating for anybody really.
00:18:24
>> Anybody could lose themselves in that. >> Yes. Very much so. >> So in 1966, this is wild. And I, as soon
00:18:30
as I got to this part of the story, I said, I can't wait to see Elena's reaction to this.
00:18:35
>> So in 1966, he marries Wana Royster, who was a receptionist at Mottown. >> Cute. In what turned out to be a
00:18:42
surprise ceremony, even to the bride, Wana literally had no idea what she had no idea. Lawrence planned the entire
00:18:51
ceremony without telling her. And when she came back home and walked into her wreck room, she found herself standing
00:18:58
in the middle of her own wedding. Say it. Say it, girl. Now, here I just I'm just thinking of me. Um
00:19:12
>> I I would not like this. >> I I'm a control freak. >> They stress me out in a way I can't
00:19:17
describe. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but I I think a a person with more handle over uh everything about
00:19:25
themselves would take this as like a fun this is like his fun personality like doing this.
00:19:31
>> It's a tossup. >> And so I'm just not that woman. >> No, me. I'm not I'm not that woman. But
00:19:38
I I wish I was. I wish I could take this. I I wish I was the kind of person that would look at that and be like how
00:19:44
fun and fancy free, >> but I'm not. >> No one me. You're a Capricorn. >> Like on the spectrum.
00:19:50
>> Yeah, very planner. >> This would stress me out. Like I'd be like I should have had control of every
00:19:57
part of this. >> The biggest thing for me would be my outfit because I curate my [ __ ]
00:20:01
outfit months ahead of of an event. >> She does. >> And I would not be happy if I just
00:20:06
rolled up there in my work wear to my own [ __ ] wedding. Yeah. And like there's certain people that like maybe I
00:20:11
wouldn't want to invite that were there or like perhaps the other way around. >> I'd like to curate the food.
00:20:18
>> Mhm. >> I'd like to curate the decor. Basically everything about it should be curated.
00:20:23
>> Yeah. >> And I'm a good curator, so I'd be pissed. >> Yeah, it's true. And And I just like to
00:20:28
know what's happening. >> Yeah. >> I don't I don't love a surprise. >> No. I Well, here I like
00:20:33
>> I can't handle small surprises, but I can't handle a big >> surprise wedding. No, that's a big
00:20:38
surprise. >> That's wild. >> Yeah, >> a gamble. But it worked out. Talking about Lawrence later, she said he was
00:20:43
absolutely fun. Oh, see that she gets it. She gets it. That's what I'm I'm like I that props to her.
00:20:50
>> Yeah, she said he's a man with a plan. >> And honestly, she's someone who probably
00:20:54
I'm like, good for you because you're probably so much less tightly wound. >> Yeah, she's lighter cuz you're just
00:21:00
like, let's go. >> She's breathing as [ __ ] Let life come at you. Let it >> Good for her. Although the he might have
00:21:06
been fun, that was probably short-lived and it wasn't enough to keep their relationship together because the
00:21:11
marriage ended in divorce after just about eight months. >> I mean, you it's it's the surprise
00:21:18
wedding. >> Yeah, it's the surprise wedding and probably the volatile personality.
00:21:21
>> From my point of view, that would not be good. >> Yeah. No. So two years later in 1968,
00:21:26
Lawrence actually left Mottown when it was at its peak and he took a job as an engineer with the legendary Mottown
00:21:32
production team Holland Dozier Holland who were splitting with Gordy and starting their own company. A little
00:21:38
messy. >> Ooh. >> Um and their own company was going to be Hot Wax Records and then its subsidiary
00:21:43
was going to be Invictus Records. >> Oh yeah. So, the label was hampered by an ongoing lawsuit between the trio of
00:21:48
songwriters and Barry Gordy, who was like, "You can't just leave my [ __ ] [ __ ] and expect that I'm not going to
00:21:54
sue you." >> Yep. >> But they did still find uh success with a string of singles and records uh by
00:21:59
singers like Freda Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament. >> Okay. >> A lot of that success was due in part at
00:22:05
least to the talents of their star engineer Lawrence Horn, who stayed with the record for most of the 70s,
00:22:11
actually. >> Damn. Now, in ' 72, Lawrence met Millie Marie, who was a flight attendant with
00:22:17
American Airlines, and he was immediately infatuated with her. >> Oh, yeah. It's the 70s and she's a
00:22:22
flight attendant. >> I mean, what more could you ask for? >> That's glam. >> That's elegana, baby.
00:22:27
>> So, they dated briefly and in 1973, they got married, but according to author
00:22:32
Rodney Smalla, whose book we'll link in the show notes, he said, "Virtually from
00:22:35
the start, the marriage was a roller coaster, >> which is not really what you're looking
00:22:39
for in marriage." >> No, definitely not me. Like a I'd like a steady. >> Yeah. I don't like a roller coaster.
00:22:45
>> Steady Eddie. I love a roller coaster. I don't want a marriage roller coaster.
00:22:48
>> Lawrence recalled the early days of their romance as a freewheel and whirl. >> Wo.
00:22:53
>> Which is so that just like it's very 70s. >> It's so Mottown, too. I'm like, "Wow,
00:22:58
write a song about that." >> It seemed that even though they had gone through the formality of actually having
00:23:03
a wedding and binding themselves together like that, Lawrence did not take their relationship very seriously.
00:23:08
>> He said it was a lark. It wasn't a love thing. It was more of an arrangement. It
00:23:12
was a distraction. It was fun. >> Okay. It wasn't a love thing. >> I was like, marriage should
00:23:20
>> Why'd you bother? >> Hot take. Marriage should always be a love thing. >> Yeah. Like why why did you bother?
00:23:26
>> Like you don't have to get married. You You guys could have had a lark. >> You could have
00:23:30
>> You could have had a fun >> cuz I little arrangement on the side where you just get together when you see
00:23:35
each other. That's okay. I mean adults, >> right? You don't need to add paperwork
00:23:41
into it. >> That's the thing. >> I just never understand that. >> Don't write up a contract if you're just
00:23:44
trying to have an adventure. >> Like you don't have to get married if you don't want to. That's your
00:23:49
prerogative. >> Yeah. >> I just don't I never understand these things. >> I have no idea.
00:23:54
>> Cuz it seems like a lot of work and paperwork cuz marriage takes a lot of paperwork.
00:23:57
>> So much paperwork. You have to like your left hand. >> I don't really take this seriously. It's
00:24:00
like then why the [ __ ] did you sign all those papers? >> Yeah. You have to You had to go to town
00:24:04
hall. >> Yeah. >> You had to file like so many more papers. a lot. You have to do admin. It's too
00:24:10
much work if you're not totally committed. >> Marriage is in fact a lot of admin.
00:24:14
>> Yeah, I never get it. >> And then if you want to change your name, don't even get me started.
00:24:17
>> Oh, [ __ ] that. >> So, regardless of how it all started or why they stayed together in the first
00:24:21
place, Millie gave birth to their first daughter, Tiffany, in 1974. >> That feels serious.
00:24:28
>> Yeah, it's that's not just a lark. >> Unfortunately, though, the arrival of a
00:24:32
baby didn't do a lot to improve things between them. >> Never does. No. In fact,
00:24:35
>> never does. if it's already bad. Yeah, it's going to get worse. >> So, with his work also now requiring him
00:24:41
to travel more and more often to Los Angeles, Millie was left alone a lot to care for Tiffany. And that can be a lot
00:24:46
like in general, but especially as a first time mom. I can't imagine. >> Of course,
00:24:51
>> that was obviously a problem in and of itself. But by that time, things had already started to deteriorate between
00:24:56
the two of them. And according to Lawrence, they just constantly fought over the least little thing. He said,
00:25:02
"Yeah." In 1975, Millie was like, "I am so [ __ ] tired of arguing with you all the time. I'm so tired of you being gone
00:25:09
when we're not arguing." >> Yeah. >> So, they separated and she ended up moving to Washington DC to live closer
00:25:14
to her sisters. Her she and her sisters were like super super close. >> Love that.
00:25:19
>> And when she moved there, Lawrence decided like, I'm going to actually move to LA so I'm not going back and forth
00:25:24
all the time. Now, despite the separation, cuz they very much were separated and the distance, Millie and
00:25:31
Lawrence, they didn't divorce and they really didn't break up at all. Like, I don't even really know if you would call
00:25:36
this a separation or it doesn't look like your typical separ separation, I'll say.
00:25:41
>> In the 10 years that followed, they got back together, they broke up, they got
00:25:46
back together countless times, and they actually even held multiple wedding ceremonies where they renewed their
00:25:52
vows. >> Oh, man. So like >> what? This is just a lot. >> It's messy. >> It's a lot.
00:25:59
>> So things between them would inevitably fall apart though within a few months or
00:26:02
years. They'd separate again for a time, get back together, and the cycle just continued and continued.
00:26:07
>> Oh, that sounds horrible. >> It does. Later, Lauren said, "I never knew what to expect from Millie. It was
00:26:12
like a roller coaster. It was difficult being in a close personal relationship with her."
00:26:16
>> You don't have to be. >> That's the thing. >> Like that that wasn't required. You did.
00:26:22
You guys did bring a child into the world, so you kind of tied yourself together.
00:26:25
>> Hey, you segueed me perfect to the next part. >> Oh, hey. >> In 1984, during one of the periods when
00:26:30
they were back together, Millie got pregnant for a second time. >> Oh, guys, you got to stop.
00:26:34
>> And in August, she gave birth to twins, Trevor. Twins. >> Twins. >> Holy [ __ ]
00:26:38
>> And it's complicated. She had twins, uh, Trevor and Tamille, 12 weeks premature.
00:26:43
>> Oh. >> Tamielle spent a month in the hospital before she was deemed stable enough to
00:26:48
come home. But Trevor's condition was a lot more complicated >> because he was born premature. His lungs
00:26:54
were underdeveloped and that led obviously to chronic respiratory issues. >> That was always my fear.
00:26:59
>> Yeah, it's scary. Scary. >> It is very scary. >> Eventually, he was allowed to go home
00:27:04
with his mom, but in the year that followed, he was in and out of the hospital with breathing problems.
00:27:09
>> That is so stressful. >> Yeah. And then you add that very stressful, very real situation into a
00:27:16
very complicated marriage. Yeah, that is treated as not very >> it's just a lot. It's a lot of just
00:27:24
sadness and stress and a lot. >> Yeah. >> So, the birth of the twins and the complicated care that they required was
00:27:31
just one more incredible strain on the relationship. But in 1985, things turned from bad to worse. During a stay at
00:27:39
Children's Hospital in DC that September, Trevor's breathing tube accidentally came out.
00:27:44
>> Oh my god. And it took the hospital staff almost an hour and a half to get it back in place.
00:27:51
>> So, >> what the [ __ ] >> The prolonged lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage, and it left Trevor
00:27:57
a quadripolgic. >> Oh, >> circumstances that would very much require lifetime roundthe-clock care and
00:28:03
assistance. >> Oh my god. >> Lawrence said that situation broke the back. The relationship never recovered
00:28:08
from that. >> Even healthy relationships, that could that could break it. >> Absolutely. That's like that kind of
00:28:15
stuff is horrific. >> It is. So, at the end of 1986, Millie finally filed for divorce, which
00:28:21
initiated a very long and very messy custody battle. >> Oh god. And in the midst of all this,
00:28:26
>> in the midst of all that, in 1987, the divorce was finalized and they were awarded joint custody, but Lawrence was
00:28:32
ordered to pay monthly child support. >> Yeah. By that time, he had left Invictus
00:28:36
and was working as an independent contractor, but he eventually actually went back to Mottown looking for more
00:28:43
stability and a reliable paycheck. I'm actually shocked they took him back after leaving to like start an offshoot
00:28:48
project. >> But unfortunately, trends in the music industry had changed and Mottown wasn't
00:28:54
quite the powerhouse that it had been. >> And by the mid80s, most of the label's
00:28:58
biggest stars weren't very popular anymore. and they were struggling to find new acts to fill in those gaps.
00:29:04
>> Yeah. >> In 1988, Mottown ended up being sold to a larger company and Lawrence stayed for
00:29:09
a little while as a tape librarian. He got 28,000 per year, which is 76,000 in 2026.
00:29:16
>> Wow. >> The salary was a very far cry from what he was used to. The money, the glamour,
00:29:22
the Porsches, the donan, all of it. >> But it did pay his bills. It allowed him to keep up with his child support
00:29:28
payments. So, he was doing all right. But that same year, the Horns filed a malpractice suit against the hospital.
00:29:34
>> Yeah. >> And they were awarded nearly $3 million in damages. >> Oh, wow. >> Rightfully so.
00:29:38
>> Yeah. >> 2.3 million was awarded to Trevor, 322,000 to Mildred, and $125,000 to
00:29:44
Lawrence. >> Wow. >> But over the course of that year, Lawrence blew through all of his money
00:29:50
that he got from the settlement. >> Jesus. >> Almost all of it went to lawyer fees
00:29:53
from the ongoing legal battle with Millie. Then in 1990, he was dealt another blow when he was fired from
00:30:00
Mottown Records. >> Oh. >> Neither Lawrence Horn nor Mottown has ever publicly provided a like in-depth
00:30:07
reasoning for the firing. >> Lawrence just blamed politics. >> Interesting. >> So, nobody really knows what happened to
00:30:13
her. >> I wonder what that was about. >> I have no idea. But in the three years that followed, his bills started to pile
00:30:19
up more and more, and Milliey's child support payments stopped coming. M >> by December of 1992, he owed his lawyers
00:30:26
more than $65,000 and he had fallen $16,000 behind in his child support payments.
00:30:34
>> And that same month, a Montgomery County judge ordered him to immediately pay the
00:30:38
overdue child support or he was going to be in like some serious [ __ ] trouble.
00:30:42
>> But the problem was since being fired, he was working as a freelance engineer,
00:30:46
but he hadn't found a lot of work. He was broke and now he was facing very serious consequences if he couldn't come
00:30:52
up with that payment. Yeah. So, let's move on to the murders that we're going to talk about. Because she was a working
00:30:59
single mother with two other children, and the extent of Trevor's needs was so great, Millie ended up hiring a nurse,
00:31:06
38-year-old Janice Saunders, and that was to help care for Trevor. Obviously, >> Janice graduated from Montgomery College
00:31:12
with a nursing degree in 1983, and she had been working very steadily ever since. In 1993, she lived with her
00:31:18
husband, Michael, and their three-year-old son, Colin, in Virginia. And that meant that she commuted an hour
00:31:24
and a half each way to Milliey's house and back home. >> So she was dedicated to her job.
00:31:30
>> In the early morning hours of March 3rd, 1993, Janice was working overnight in
00:31:35
the Horn House and she was staying up while Millie slept. Millie had worked late that night. To pass the time,
00:31:40
Janice was working on a cross stitch from a pattern, which was her fifth uh piece in the pattern. It was called The
00:31:45
Parade. At around 2:30 in the morning, the phone rang and Millie, still half asleep, answered and her daughter
00:31:52
Tiffany was on the other end calling from college. Tiffany was like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I actually I didn't mean to call
00:31:57
you. I meant to call somebody else." And they both said, "Good night." And Millie
00:32:00
hung up and went back to sleep. Somewhere in the next two two hours, while Janice was in Trevor's bedroom
00:32:06
working on her crossstitch and, you know, listening for any signs of trouble or disturbances in Trevor's breathing,
00:32:12
>> Yeah. A man entered the house through the garage door, which was the only door
00:32:17
in the house that wasn't locked. >> The only door in the house that wasn't locked. [ __ ]
00:32:24
>> This man was armed with a silenced AR722 caliber rifle and he crept through the
00:32:30
house until he found Trevor's room. It's unknown whether or not Janice ever saw her killer. He stood several feet away
00:32:37
from her and opened fire, striking her twice in the head and once through her eye socket. God,
00:32:43
>> that bullet penetrated her brain, which killed her instantly. >> Holy [ __ ] >> This is a lot, just so everybody knows.
00:32:49
Obviously, with Janice now killed, the intruder walked over to the hospital bed where little Trevor was sleeping.
00:32:55
>> No. >> 8 years old, surrounded by his stuffed animals. >> The killer easily could have killed him
00:33:01
by simply turning off the machines that controlled his breathing while he slept,
00:33:05
but either the man didn't know that, or he just wanted to opt for a more brutal death.
00:33:09
>> Oh my god. He placed one hand over the tracheosttomy opening in Trevor's throat
00:33:14
and one hand over his mouth and nose and he smothered Trevor to death. That is [ __ ] evil. It's diabolical. Holy
00:33:23
[ __ ] So, the distressed and eventual end of Trevor's breathing set off the alarm on the medical monitor and the
00:33:29
noise woke up Millie who jumped out of bed and obviously ran toward her son's room. She made it as far as the
00:33:35
vestibule just inside the front door when the killer turned his rifle on her and again shot her twice in the head and
00:33:41
once through the eye just like he had with Janice. >> Oh my god. >> So the wounds were instantly fatal,
00:33:47
obviously dropping Millie to the floor just inside the doorway. Later that morning, just after 7:00 a.m., Milliey's
00:33:53
sister Viven drove over to Milliey's house. The night before, like I said, Millie had worked late.
00:33:58
>> Yeah. >> And Vivian agreed to watch Tam yell at her house while Millie was away. So, she
00:34:02
was coming back to drop off Tamille. >> Oh my goodness. I was wondering about Tamielle.
00:34:07
>> Yeah. So, Janice, meanwhile, stayed at the Horn House, like I just said, to care for Trevor.
00:34:12
>> When Vivian initially drove up to the house planning to drop off Tamielle, she
00:34:16
was surprised to find that the garage door was open. And she could see that the door that led from the garage to the
00:34:21
family room was also a jar. This was very unusual because both Millie and Janice were super vigilant about locking
00:34:28
doors and making sure everything was closed up. up. One door was unlocked. >> And as soon as she got out of the car,
00:34:33
Vivien heard the sound of the medical monitors alarm. So, and she'd later told police it only went off when there was
00:34:38
no breath sounds transmitted to the machines. >> This is horrific. >> It's awful. So, Vivian didn't need to
00:34:44
know the details. The sound of the alarm was enough to know that something like there was an emergency here.
00:34:49
>> So, she got back into her car and drove home as fast as she could. And when she
00:34:54
got there, she instructed Tamille to call 911 and have them meet her at Milliey's house. When Tamille placed the
00:35:00
call, Vivian went next door to the home of her neighbor Deborah Falls and asked if she would go back to the house with
00:35:05
her and just of her to do >> to not go inside. >> To not go inside, not >> not touch anything
00:35:12
>> cuz again, she's in charge of this other child right now. So, she's like, I need
00:35:15
to >> like keep my wits about me. >> Exactly. So, when they both got back to the horn house a few minutes later, they
00:35:22
tried to enter through the front door, but the door seemed to be blocked by something on the other side, and neither
00:35:27
of them could get it to budge. Unable to get in that way, Vivien went to a nearby
00:35:32
window and peered inside to see what was blocking the door. And that's when she saw her sister lying on the floor, and
00:35:38
she said, quote, with half of her face blown off. >> Oh my god. >> The sight of her sister's body was
00:35:42
obviously shocking. And once they realized that she had clearly been killed, neither woman went inside,
00:35:48
deciding that they just needed to wait in the car for the police to get there. >> Yeah. So, police and emergency
00:35:53
responders got there a few minutes later, made their way inside, and obviously found all three bodies. The
00:35:59
medical examiner also arrived a short time later, and after a cursory examination, he obviously concluded that
00:36:05
all three deaths were the result of homicide. >> Yeah. The cause of death for Millie and
00:36:09
Janice was very obvious, but Trevor's cause of death, while obviously the result of Expixia, was a little less
00:36:16
obvious upon first look. At first, the medical examiner assumed that the death had been caused off by the turning off
00:36:23
of the medical equipment. >> But later, after the investigation was finished and he was able to do a more
00:36:28
thorough exam, the cause of death was changed to manual suffocation. >> That's so horrific. And it's an
00:36:35
eight-year-old little boy who literally is unable to breathe on his own. And you
00:36:40
look at these like if you look at pictures of like Millie and Trevor and and Janice, like they all look like
00:36:46
sweet such sweet people. I kill beautiful. >> Millie was beautiful. Those kids are
00:36:52
adorable. >> And Janice looks like the sweetest woman. >> She's just got that like kind of face.
00:36:58
>> And she dedicated her life to this. She drove an hour and a half each way to just go take care of. and she's a mother
00:37:04
and she spent nights there when she needed to. Like >> this was a lot >> horrible.
00:37:09
>> So, according to Vivien, who had been in the home countless times prior to that
00:37:13
day, obviously it's her sister. Things did look like they'd been disturbed, she said, but not overly so. Investigators
00:37:20
obviously considered the homicides might have been the result of a robbery gone wrong, but they moved on from that
00:37:25
theory once they got through their search of the home. According to court records, investigation of the Horn
00:37:30
residents disclosed that only a few areas of the home had been disturbed. In the living room, a rug and a side table
00:37:36
looked like they had been moved. The couch cushions had been removed and thrown on the floor. And everything
00:37:41
inside Milliey's purse had been strewn out, like thrown over all over the living room, but nothing seemed like it
00:37:47
was missing. And then elsewhere in the house, other rugs looked like they'd been kicked aside as an intruder walked
00:37:53
by. And a few other pieces of furniture were toppled over. But even though it looked like the house had been
00:37:58
ransacked, to the detectives, it was quote in a cursory way that gave the appearance of having been staged.
00:38:03
>> It's very clear. >> Yeah. In fact, for all the mess in the house, other than Milliey's missing
00:38:09
credit card and her check cashing card, nothing seemed to have been taken. >> Huh.
00:38:13
>> And as they walked through the scene, investigators did notice several valuable items just sitting in plain
00:38:18
view. There was Milliey's 5 karat diamond bracelet just out. There was a lot of other jewelry, too.
00:38:26
Several electronics and Janice Saunders jewelry and purse were also found in the
00:38:30
house with all of the contents undisturbed. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. So, based on the brutality of the
00:38:36
murders, the absence of uh the evidence of sexual assault and the fact that nothing of value really had been taken,
00:38:43
investigators were left with only one theory. Whoever broke into Millie Horn's house obviously did so with the
00:38:48
intention of killing everybody in there. >> Wow. But who would want to kill two women and a severely disabled child?
00:38:54
>> That's what I'm like, you have to be such a [ __ ] up individual. >> Absolutely you do.
00:38:59
>> Like that's beyond. >> Absolutely you do. So, Detective Chris Wittenberg was put in charge of the
00:39:04
case, and his thorough search of the crime scene appeared to support the belief that everything looked like it
00:39:09
was staged, but it was not in fact a robbery. And he found some more evidence to that. In the basement, one of the
00:39:15
window screens had been pulled away and there were pry marks on the frame, but the killer didn't enter the house that
00:39:20
way. It was clear. >> Yeah. >> On the back deck, the weather stripping on the doors leading into the home had
00:39:25
been punctured, which would have allowed access to the dead bolts that secured the doors.
00:39:30
>> And either of these would have been an easy access point to into the house, but
00:39:34
neither again was the way that the killer got inside. >> And it seemed like they were made to
00:39:39
look like they'd been tried and eventually abandoned. >> Okay. Unfortunately, beyond the obvious
00:39:44
setup, there wasn't much evidence to be found. Later that day, though, some joggers did find Milliey's missing
00:39:50
credit cards scattered along the side of the road, not that far from the house, >> so nobody even used the
00:39:55
>> I was going to say, so they didn't even take them. >> So, the fact that they'd been taken and
00:39:59
immediately discarded was even more evidence that this was never about robbery. >> Other than that, too, a trigger from an
00:40:05
AR7 was found in the woods a few weeks later by K9 units, but the serial number had been filed off.
00:40:12
which makes you think it's professional. >> Absolutely. And then this is crazy. I
00:40:16
don't think I've heard of this in a case that we've talked about. Maybe you can remember. Nearby, investigators also
00:40:22
also found a rat tail file with traces of gunpowder on it. And detectives thought that it had been used to scour
00:40:29
the barrel of the gun to obscure striation patterns, which if you're not familiar, I wasn't. Uh striation
00:40:36
patterns are microscopic marks left behind on bullets and cartridge cases cases. fingerprints.
00:40:41
>> They're literally like fingerprints and it's when they're fired from a gun. >> But somebody had taken that rat tail
00:40:48
file to [ __ ] with them. >> That's literally cuz I took a ballistics class like an anthropology class and part of
00:40:55
it was ballistics >> and that was one of the things we learned about. And to to scour that off
00:41:01
is like filing off fingerprints. It's like firing filing off your own fingerprints after you've left them at a
00:41:07
scene so they can't trace them to you. It's the same thing which is nuts. >> They find those quote unquote
00:41:12
fingerprint striations on that bullet. They would be able to match it to that barrel. But if you scour that off,
00:41:18
>> there's no way to do it. >> And that's professional [ __ ] >> Very much so. >> Like what the [ __ ]
00:41:22
>> Isn't that crazy? I I feel like we haven't talked about talked a lot about striation patterns, but that's
00:41:28
interesting. >> Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff with ballistics. >> I That's the You've gotten into it like
00:41:32
a few times. I always find that stuff really interesting. That must have been a cool class.
00:41:36
>> It was a really cool class. >> Now, so that's [ __ ] crazy. But in the absence of most evidence, Detective
00:41:41
Wittenberg and his team decided to focus all their attention at this point on a possible motive because that's going to
00:41:47
give you a story at least to follow, a path to follow. >> The killer staged the scene to look like
00:41:52
robbery. And even though they were pretty sure it wasn't, that didn't mean that the murders weren't about money.
00:41:57
>> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah, for sure. >> So, at that point, they started to consider who would have benefited from
00:42:02
the deaths of these three victims. Digging into Millie's background, they discovered that she had come from a
00:42:07
large family with 13 brothers and sisters. >> Damn. >> But they were all super close. They all
00:42:13
seemed to be upstanding people. >> And by all appearances, they were still very close with each other. They kept in
00:42:19
touch regularly. Like, this wasn't the path they were going down. >> Milliey's sister, Elaine, said there are
00:42:24
365 days in a year, and I was at Milliey's house, 360 of them. >> Which just made me think of you.
00:42:30
>> Yeah. Like >> seriously, >> clearly whoever was responsible for these murders, they weren't going to be
00:42:35
found among the family of Millie. >> So turning his attention to Milliey's ex-husband, Lawrence, Detective
00:42:42
Wittenberg started to learn the details of the divorce and of Trevor's medical history and the malpractice settlement
00:42:48
from Children's Hospital. Even though they were divorced under Maryland law, if Millie and Trevor both were to die,
00:42:54
then the multi-million dollar trust fund set up for Trevor's care would go directly to Lawren Horn. Uh, as far as
00:43:01
Detective Wittenberg was concerned, that was a very good motive for murder. >> Sure is.
00:43:05
>> So, suspicion fell quickly on him, but at the same time, the detective didn't
00:43:09
want to rush into things. >> So, he started questioning the people around Millie about her relationship
00:43:13
with Lawrence. Milliey's sisters all said unanimously that the divorce proceedings were hostile, like
00:43:20
particularly hostile. And they also all of them knew Lawrence had fallen well behind on his child support payments in
00:43:27
recent months and was facing I don't know exactly what but I know you can face jail time if you don't pay.
00:43:33
>> Yeah. Or they can start to just take your paycheck directly. >> Yeah. >> So they all agreed that if anybody would
00:43:38
have wanted Millie dead it would have been Lawrence. >> Mhm. >> But the most interesting piece of
00:43:43
information actually came from Millie and Lawrence's daughter Tiffany. The night before the murders occurred. She
00:43:49
actually spoke to her dad on the phone. And according to her her quote, her father had been obsessed with questions
00:43:54
about where everybody in the family would be the following night, including what she knew about when her mother
00:43:59
would be home and whether Tamielle would be sleeping over that night at Elaine's.
00:44:03
>> Oo, that's so spooky. So, he wanted to make sure that Tamielle wasn't there. At
00:44:09
least is what it sounded like. >> Damn. >> So, Tiffany's interview supported the
00:44:13
belief that Lawrence was involved in the murder. And 10 days later, he flew to Los Angeles to sit down for an interview
00:44:18
with Lawrence. Before he got there though, he arranged with the LAPD to have the home Lauren shared with his
00:44:25
girlfriend Sherry to be searched for evidence. >> Mhm. >> So on the evening of March 13th, offer
00:44:30
officers arrived at the house with a search warrant and neither Sherry nor Lawrence was home. So it was kind of
00:44:35
perfect. >> Yeah. When they searched the house, they found, among other things, a video
00:44:39
cassette where Lawrence filmed himself driving the route from the days in in Rockville, Maryland to Milliey's
00:44:45
neighborhood in Silver Spring, as well as a handdrawn map of Milliey's neighborhood that indicated which house
00:44:52
was hers. Huh. >> There was also a piece of paper from a Days notepad that had several phone
00:44:58
numbers and other pieces of cryptic information. >> Ew. >> So, that's all weird. I don't You don't
00:45:03
need a map of anybody's house that you know. >> Yeah. I don't like it. A few hours into
00:45:07
their search, Sher and Lawrence actually got back home and they both were shocked. They were like, "What the [ __ ]
00:45:11
is the police doing here?" And when they gave Lawrence a copy of the warrant and
00:45:15
explained why they were there, he immediately protested and he said, "No, no, no. I have an alibi for the night of
00:45:21
the murder. >> Better than an alibi, even. I have a videotape of me and Sherry in the
00:45:26
apartment on the night of the murder." irrefutable proof that he was nowhere near Maryland when Millie, Janice, and
00:45:34
Trevor were killed. >> Okay. >> Odd. >> Very odd. >> Odd. >> Very odd. >> So, the next day, Detective Wittenberg
00:45:42
watched the tape. In it, Lawrence and Cherry can just be seen standing in the living room of their apartment as the
00:45:48
camera films from a position on a tripod. And at one point, the camera zooms in on the television directly
00:45:55
behind them, and the date and time can clearly be seen. >> That's convenient. >> Super. Wow.
00:46:03
>> But it was irrefutable proof that Lawrence couldn't have been in Maryland when the murders were committed. But as
00:46:08
far as Detective Whittenberg was concerned, like you just said, it was all a little too convenient and really
00:46:14
[ __ ] odd. >> Yep. Like why do you just have a videotape of you standing in your living
00:46:19
room with your girlfriend that zooms in on the time and date? >> Yeah, that's a little weird.
00:46:23
>> I don't know about little weird. >> It'd be one thing if it was like a birthday party or like
00:46:28
>> an anniversary or like something, >> but just for the hell of it. >> Yeah, like it's just strange.
00:46:33
>> I don't know about that. >> So, it proved he wasn't directly the killer, but that didn't mean that he
00:46:37
wasn't responsible for the deaths. Now turning to the only evidence of substance gathered from his apartment,
00:46:43
Detective Wittenberg directed several members of his team to contact all of the days in locations in the vicinity of
00:46:49
Milliey's neighborhood. >> And they needed to get access to their registrations in the days leading up to
00:46:54
the murder. This great detective work. >> Yeah, I was going to say it's one of those situations that you're like, "Good
00:46:59
job." >> Yeah. So almost immediately, one registration jumped out at him. Around
00:47:03
midnight on the night of the murders, a man named James Perry checked into the Days in Rockville, Maryland, and checked
00:47:10
out just 6 hours later. Weird. He uh he paid cash for the room, but he used his driver's license when he checked in. So,
00:47:17
looking over the phone records for the hotel room, it also appeared that Perry had got a call around 11:50 p.m. from a
00:47:24
pay phone that just happened to be located outside of the post office, which was a short distance away from
00:47:30
Lawrence Horn's home, all the way in LA. >> Wow, that's crazy. >> That is crazy. Even more damning, phone
00:47:37
records also showed an incoming call to Lawrence Horn's apartment from the days in at 5:12 a.m. just after the murders
00:47:44
occurred and just before Perry checked out of the hotel. >> Huh. Interesting. >> Very interesting.
00:47:50
>> So, a quick check of James Perry's background revealed that he was a fairly small-time criminal from Detroit. At the
00:47:56
time of the murders, he was presenting himself uh professionally as Dr. J. Perry, a self-described spiritual
00:48:03
adviser and case buster. Okay. Yeah. >> Spiritual adviser and case buster. >> Two things that don't necessarily go
00:48:09
hand in hand, but I feel like they should. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. >> He also had a criminal record that
00:48:14
included arrests for felony assault, armed robbery, and he was known for being a con artist.
00:48:19
>> Okay. >> Yeah. Now, digging into those phone records, investigators discovered lots
00:48:24
and lots of calls between payoneses in the area of Lawrence Horn's apartment and payoneses in places where Perry was
00:48:31
known to spend his time in Detroit. With help from the FBI, Detective Wittenberg
00:48:36
had an agent interview James Perry under the guise of just a routine check. The agent told Perry it was just a routine
00:48:42
thing. They were checking with everybody who had checked into the days in on that
00:48:45
date. And Perry was like, "Yep, I was there. I stopped to get some sleep. I was driving for a while, but I still had
00:48:51
several more hours of driving ahead of me. So, it was a quick thing." >> Okay. >> He said once he rested, he got back on
00:48:56
the road and he continued home to Detroit. Now, using his credit card as the main reference point, investigators
00:49:02
were able to establish that he had made several calls to LA on the trip from Rockville to Detroit.
00:49:08
>> And between Yeah. between the calls from Detroit to Los Angeles and the calls
00:49:13
establishing his trip from Maryland to Detroit, agents were very much able to get a warrant to search his apartment.
00:49:19
>> Seeming a little sus. >> Yeah. So, the search of his apartment didn't necessarily turn up much that was
00:49:25
incriminating or much that was of evidentiary value, but they did find a large number of books, magazines, and
00:49:32
cataloges about crime and weapons. >> Okay? >> And they weren't just the kind of thing
00:49:37
that you could buy at any bookstore. The magazines and the cataloges would have had to have been directly ordered from a
00:49:42
company. >> Huh. So on a hunch, Detective Wittenberg started calling around to some of these
00:49:47
publishers to find out whether James Perry had ordered anything from them. >> Interesting.
00:49:51
>> And it took a few tries to finally get a hit. But a company called Palladen Press
00:49:56
in Colorado confirmed that James Perry had ordered two books from them in 1992. >> According to the sales rep, the titles
00:50:03
were How to Make Disposable Silencers and Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors.
00:50:16
What? Yeah, >> that second one I mean >> literally titled second one. Hitman a technical manual.
00:50:25
>> And remember I told you whoever killed them used a silencer >> on their automatic rifle.
00:50:32
>> Of course. >> Yeah. >> What the that I can't believe that exists. Like what the [ __ ] And imagine
00:50:38
if this detective hadn't had the hunch to call those publishing companies. Like that's next level.
00:50:44
>> This is right in your face. Like he found the smoking gun. Like no pun intended right here.
00:50:50
>> Very much so. >> Holy [ __ ] Thank goodness he was thinking outside of the box a little
00:50:53
bit. >> Yeah, a little bit. Well, you have to think of the time here. It's like the
00:50:56
'9s. Like it's it's impressive. >> That is out of the box thinking at that point.
00:51:01
>> Yeah. So now sensing that he was becoming the prime suspect or at least one of them in Milliey's murder,
00:51:06
Lawrence decided he was going to be proactive in his defense and he started offering interviews with any reporter
00:51:11
who would listen. >> When asked directly by an Associated Press reporter whether he had anything
00:51:16
to do with the deaths, he said, "I couldn't be involved in something like that. I couldn't have done that to
00:51:20
Trevor." Okay. According to him, any suspicion that had fallen on him was the result of accusations made by Milliey's
00:51:26
sisters. In fact, he told a reporter he had decided to stay away from his own son's funeral due to the quote amount of
00:51:33
animosity that they felt towards him. >> So, he was making himself a victim in all of this.
00:51:37
>> There's so many layers to that because it's like, wow, you're going to blame her sisters
00:51:41
>> and you're not going to go son's funeral >> and you're not going to go to >> Could you not handle it?
00:51:46
>> Wild horses shouldn't be able to drag you away from that funeral. Who gives a
00:51:50
[ __ ] if people thinks you're I don't I wouldn't care at all. >> No. >> Everybody can think I'm an [ __ ]
00:51:54
That's my son's funeral. >> Yeah, you would go. And it's like, do you think you look better not going to
00:51:59
your child's funeral? >> That's the thing. >> Like, what the [ __ ] >> But it's also like, could you handle it?
00:52:05
>> Yeah. >> Maybe knowing what you maybe allegedly, >> maybe there's a reason you can't.
00:52:09
>> So, despite his attempts to frame himself as just another victim in the tragedy, statements from Milliey's
00:52:14
friends and family that came out in the months that followed really didn't do a lot to support his account. In April,
00:52:20
two of Milliey's co-workers came forward with reports that Millie feared Horn might kill her.
00:52:24
>> Oh, wow. She was literally telling people that and those were followed by reports in the press that he was
00:52:29
unemotional when he learned of the murders. In response, he told a reporter that the murders had quote devastated
00:52:35
his life and that he had quote nothing whatsoever to do with them. >> Okay. >> What Lawrence didn't know was though,
00:52:41
behind the scenes, investigators were very capable of building this case and were building this case against James
00:52:47
Perry. And that case involved that trail of telephone conversations that led directly to Lawrence.
00:52:53
>> Because it always will, babe. >> It always will. >> It always will. >> Finally, in late July 1994, more than a
00:52:58
year after the murders had occurred, the Montgomery County States Attorney Andrew
00:53:02
Sonner gave the gohead to Detective Wittenberg to arrest both James Perry and Lawrence Horn on charges of
00:53:09
first-degree murder. And they were both picked up in Detroit and in Hollywood on
00:53:12
July 20th. I I never understand why people think they're going to get away with that. You're never going to get
00:53:17
somebody to do your dirty work for you. It's always going to tie back to you and
00:53:22
you're both going to go down. >> That's the thing. >> At a press conference the following day,
00:53:26
Sonner praised Whittenberg's team for what he called the most exhaustive and labor intensive investigation in the
00:53:31
department's history. >> And as for the crime itself, he told reporters, "This is not an ordinary
00:53:36
murder case. This was planned long in advance and arranged with a great deal of preparation and evil."
00:53:41
>> Yeah. >> This is his own son. >> This is his own son and the mother of his children. Yeah. And the woman that
00:53:47
has taken dedicated to helping your family. >> Yep. >> Like what the [ __ ] >> So in response to the charges, his
00:53:55
lawyer told reporters, "I spoke to Mr. Horn at some length last evening. He continues to maintain his innocence and
00:54:00
continues to vehemently deny any involvement in these murders." >> Then how is he connected to the hitman?
00:54:05
>> Exactly. >> Like come on. >> Yeah. So despite that, law enforcement officials assured the press that they
00:54:11
had worked tirelessly over the last year and that they established documentary evidence proving that Lawrence had hired
00:54:17
James Perry, communicated with him before and after the murders, and also paid him.
00:54:24
>> Yeah, babe. You can't get out of it. >> They literally had evidence of payments.
00:54:27
>> How can you explain that? >> You can't. >> You can't. >> So, James' trial uh began October 12th,
00:54:32
1995. And by that time, the case had been covered very extensively in the press. And Sonner's decision to ask for
00:54:38
the death penalty made it even more sensational for trial watchers. So the biggest challenge for prosecutors Bob
00:54:45
Dean and Terresa Whan was the fact that the entire case against Perry was based on circumstantial evidence. They had the
00:54:52
phone log showing that contact between the two. They did have the financial transaction and the two books, Hitman
00:54:58
and Silencer, >> but nothing directly connecting him to the murders from like a legal from a
00:55:04
legal standpoint. Exactly. >> So rather like like forensics. Exactly. >> So rather than try to minimize that
00:55:10
fact, Terresa Whan actually leaned into it, which was a smart way to go about this.
00:55:15
>> She told the jury, "James Perry did better than leaving his fingerprint at the scene because James Perry followed a
00:55:21
blueprint." >> Yeah. And here's the blueprint. Literally, he had followed the instructions in Hitman to the letter,
00:55:27
which was the most compelling evidence that he committed those murders. >> That is such a smart way to go about
00:55:32
that. >> It is a not we don't need a fingerprint. He has the blueprint. >> We have the book that we know he has.
00:55:38
Yep. >> And he followed it to the tea. >> And not only like has but special ordered.
00:55:42
>> Yeah. What the [ __ ] >> And it's like and this blueprint is exactly why we don't have his
00:55:46
fingerprint. >> Yeah. So ultimately the jury agreed and uh October 12th after deliberating for
00:55:52
just uh 4 hours they found him guilty on all three counts of first-degree murder
00:55:56
and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. A few days later on October 16th that same jury sentenced him to death by
00:56:04
lethal injection for those murders and a life sentence for the conspiracy charge.
00:56:09
His sentence was the first time a Maryland jury had returned a death sentence in 15 years in almost 15 years.
00:56:16
So, it was a big deal. >> Yeah. >> Which is another reason that I'm just shocked I hadn't heard of this case
00:56:20
before. >> I know. >> So, Lawrence's trial followed a few months behind Perry's with Dean and Whan
00:56:26
also leading the prosecution and presenting pretty much the same case to a new jury. Rodney Smaller wrote, "In
00:56:32
many respects, the Horn trial was a replay of James Perry's case, but the Horn trial was far more emotionally
00:56:37
intense. Of course, >> the kid's father >> and like his aranged wife." >> Yeah. Among other things, the trial
00:56:44
featured a lot of lengthy readings from Hitman, including a passage that suggested hitmen should quote, "look for
00:56:51
clients in messy divorce cases." >> Wow. Spot on. >> That is such a dis I can't believe that
00:56:57
that exists. How disgusting. >> Well, I have good news for you. >> Good. >> So, the trial also included obviously
00:57:03
gripping, heartbreaking testimony from several family members, including Milliey's sister Vivian, who remember
00:57:08
found her sister's body and described that to the court. even imagine that. >> No. Her detailed account of finding her
00:57:15
sister's body caused another one of Milliey's sisters to start crying uncontrollably and she actually had to
00:57:21
be removed with assistance, which is just >> I don't know how you can sit there and
00:57:25
not uncontrollably cry. >> Yeah. >> The most damning testimony though came from Tiffany who told the court that her
00:57:32
father quote told me once that Trevor could never be a real son to him because of his condition.
00:57:39
That's [ __ ] disgusting. >> Truly >> that is so shameful. >> Absolutely. >> That's [ __ ] disgusting.
00:57:44
>> Absolutely it is. >> One to say that at all >> or to have those feelings to say it to
00:57:49
your other child who's disgusting. >> That's his older sister. >> Yeah. That's disgusting.
00:57:54
>> Unreal. >> So the jury in the Horn trial found the prosecution's case just as compelling as
00:57:59
the jury in the Perry case, luckily. And on May 4th, Lawrence Horn was found guilty of three counts of first-degree
00:58:04
murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder. According to the press, he betrayed no emotions as the verdicts
00:58:10
were read in a packed courtroom. Stonefaced. >> He doesn't give a [ __ ] >> No. After the verdicts were announced,
00:58:16
Jenna Saunders sister, Terry Krebs, told reporters, "There's no joy in this decision because joy was taken from us
00:58:22
on March 3rd, 1993." >> Tiffany was more satisfied with the outcome. She said, "I'm just glad we got
00:58:28
a guilty verdict. Not only were my mother and my brother and Janice killed, but my family was destroyed. I hope when
00:58:34
this is over, we'll be able to rebuild it because all we have is family." Oh, that just breaks my heart.
00:58:38
>> It's like, babe, how does your [ __ ] daughter know that at 20 years old or like a little bit older at this point
00:58:43
and you don't? >> Yeah. >> You don't realize that all you have is family and that you don't [ __ ] turn
00:58:47
your back and kill your whole family. >> And to say that child was not a real son
00:58:51
because of what he had gone through. >> What? >> What the [ __ ] >> What? That's so
00:58:56
>> because he has difficulty breathing and it had like a tragic event take so many
00:59:01
things away from him. He's not your real son. >> Disgusting. So on May 17th, uh the jury
00:59:06
convened and he was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility for parole. Bye. In 2001, of course, there was an
00:59:12
appeals, an automatic appeal because James Perry got the death penalty. He argued, among other things, that his
00:59:18
constitutional rights have been violated when investigators tapped his phone. It's always the constitutional rights.
00:59:23
>> The justices ultimately did reverse the lower court's decision, but it was with
00:59:27
no enthusiasm. They wrote, "When due process demands the law will reverse a conviction of an an undisputed and
00:59:33
cold-blooded killer, even on a technicality because it must. It is not with any sense of satisfaction that a
00:59:39
court reverses on a technicality. When it does so, it does so reluctantly and with a heavy heart and only because it
00:59:45
must." Damn. >> So, they were like, "Our backs are up against a court. >> We don't want to do this, but we have
00:59:49
to." So after the conviction was overturned, the state district attorney consulted with the victim's families on
00:59:55
what they would prefer, if they wanted Perry to be tried again or if they wanted him to just get a plea deal. So
01:00:00
that >> I like when they do this. >> Yeah, it's cool. >> They all agreed that he should be
01:00:05
retrieded for the murders. >> After presenting what was basically the same case against Perry, just without
01:00:10
some of the uh phone tapping evidence, >> he was found guilty again. However, this
01:00:16
time the jury sentenced him to four life sentences without the possibility of >> honestly. Let's go.
01:00:20
>> Basically the same. >> On December 30th, 2009, he died of an undisclosed illness at Maryland's Jessup
01:00:27
Correctional Institution. And Lawrence Horn also died in prison of an undisclosed illness on February 11th,
01:00:34
2017. Peace. Bye. Following the conviction of James Perry, Elaine Rice ended up filing a suit against the
01:00:41
Palladon Press and its owner, Peter Lond, arguing that their books had contributed to the death of Janice
01:00:47
Saunders, Millie, and Trevor Horn. >> I'm not usually for this kind of thing. >> No, me neither. Fully for this in this
01:00:54
case. >> I am very much not for, you know, banning books, anything like that. >> This kind of book, absolutely.
01:01:00
>> If that is a literal manual to murder someone, >> get it out of here >> and that's the intention of it. get it.
01:01:06
That's [ __ ] up. Like, this isn't like fiction. This isn't like a discussion of
01:01:11
this kind of stuff. This is a literal how-to guide. I mean, that's disgusting. That's the line.
01:01:16
>> I can't believe it ever was even published, to be honest. Wild. >> Lawyer Howard Seagull said, "It's a
01:01:21
murder man. Perry bought the book from Paden. He followed 27 specific instructions in the book and he executed
01:01:27
three human beings." >> Yeah. I mean, this is to me, maybe somebody else feels differently about
01:01:32
this and you absolutely can if you want to. >> Yeah, of course. Again, banning books I
01:01:36
am 100% not for. Obviously, >> this one has no place at all. It just doesn't. >> It's not a book. It's a murder manual.
01:01:44
That's literally what it is. That's not a book. >> Precisely. In their defense, London
01:01:48
argued, quote, "We didn't have anything to do with inciting Mr. Perry to murder.
01:01:51
In how many ways did these particular killings differ from what was written from the killings described in the
01:01:56
Hitman manual?" >> It's like, they didn't really. He followed it to a te. >> Followed it. So in February 97, the
01:02:02
court ruled that hitman was not protected by the first amendment and both Lond and Palladen Press could be
01:02:08
held liable for its role in three murders. So this is a big deal. >> Yeah. >> Two years later in 99 uh Palladon Press
01:02:16
did agree to settle out of court with the family, not because they accepted their role in the murders, they said,
01:02:21
but because their insurance company refused to continue liability coverage because these costs were insane at this
01:02:27
point. >> Yeah. In addition to paying for the financial penalties, they did agree to
01:02:32
destroy the remaining copies of the book and they surrendered their rights to the
01:02:35
work. >> Wow. >> And that is the Hitman murders. The murders of Millie. Wow. >> Trevor and Janice.
01:02:44
>> What a horrific case. >> It really is a horrific and completely senseless case.
01:02:52
>> So senseless. It was all for money. >> Yeah. It was all just so that he could
01:02:56
live the life that he wanted to live again. >> Want to keep having selfishness? >> Like I'm just that that got me.
01:03:03
>> Yeah, it's a it's a horrible case and it's just surprising. >> Like I hadn't heard of that one before.
01:03:09
>> I just I am like an 8-year-old who has already gone through everything that Trevor has gone through.
01:03:17
>> Laying there surrounded by his stuffed animals, >> unable to move, >> unable to move,
01:03:20
>> unable to protect himself. and his mother who has done everything to try to take care of those kids and work for
01:03:26
those kids. >> Yeah. She's working her ass off and like working overnight to pay for a nurse.
01:03:31
Oh, she was a single mother. Absolutely. >> It's so [ __ ] up. >> And this nurse who has like dedicated
01:03:36
her whole life to helping this family. Like [ __ ] you. >> You killed some of the best of the best
01:03:40
people it seems. >> It's so sad. >> Damn. That's That's rough. >> It's a rough one. Yeah. I'm so happy
01:03:47
that he died in prison. >> I'm glad justice was served. The hitman died in prison as well. I hope his rema
01:03:53
I hope his remaining children and family and like Milliey's family are [ __ ] thriving.
01:03:58
>> Yeah. Well, and I like what Tiffany said like this destroyed my family, but I
01:04:02
hope we can rebuild because that's all you have is family. >> Yeah. I hope they did. I hope they're
01:04:06
thriving. I hope they're so happy and healthy and >> I wish them all the best. >> Living the best lives.
01:04:12
>> All right. Do you want a fun fact? >> I crave a fun fact right now. Oh, this one I found I was just like that really
01:04:18
is fun. Many animals are able to predict earthquakes to varying levels of success. But snakes are the most
01:04:25
reliable. >> They can sense an earthquake from as far as 75 miles away. And they can even
01:04:31
sense an earthquake 5 days before it actually occurs. >> That is the funnest fact,
01:04:37
>> isn't it? And when they sense an earthquake, they leave their nests even if it's too cold out. They're like, I'm
01:04:41
not staying here for this [ __ ] >> Yeah. Like this shit's going to collapse. >> Isn't that fascinating?
01:04:44
>> Wow. Oh, and that was from the fact site. >> [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And I wonder if it's just something to
01:04:49
do with how grounded to the earth they are all the time. Like their entire lives are grounded to the earth.
01:04:56
>> Their whole body. >> They can feel like a shift. >> That is cool as hell. >> It is cool. I I snakes creep me out, but
01:05:03
I really like them. >> I really like snakes. >> I really like them. >> I held a giant snake at my youngest
01:05:08
birthday party. >> That's cool. >> And I felt like Britney Spears in that. >> Absolutely. It's Britney. I was like, I
01:05:14
love this snake. >> You said every time they turn the lights, >> the snake was so sweet.
01:05:19
>> A >> She was like a beautiful lady. >> I love that. >> And I felt like we connected.
01:05:24
>> You did. >> Hell yeah. Snakes. >> I love it. I'm obsessed. >> Damn. >> All right. Well, think about snakes.
01:05:32
>> Yeah. >> Think about genuine snakes, not human snakes like Lawrence. >> Um and and and James Perry.
01:05:39
>> But yeah, think about snakes. Order Elena's books. Watch Center, watch the pit,
01:05:44
>> find Joy, and Ice. >> We hope you keep listening, >> and we hope you >> keep it,
01:05:50
but not so weird that you say we're virtue signaling by. >> Yeah.