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[Music]
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[Music]
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Vive, thank you for joining us today.
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It's good to be here. Mhl.
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To begin with, I wonder if you could
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tell our audience about your own
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immigrant experience and what role that
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played in shaping your research and your
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book.
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Right. Mul I was in um New York in the
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60s as a as a child and being in America
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is quite an experience. It I left here
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in the late 60s but I'd always wanted to
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come back and the first chance I got was
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in 1980 when my father got transferred
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to to the uh consulate in New York City
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and um I joined Xerox and within a year
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and a half of coming here I was able to
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get a green card. In my mind the day I
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got my green card I became an American.
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I started thinking like an American,
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behaving like an American, working like
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an American and there was no other
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country for me in the world. It was that
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easy. A decade after coming here, I
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ended up founding my first company. The
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company grew to um you know to the point
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it employed a thousand people and it was
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a big success. We took it public and you
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know it was it was a wonderful success
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and then I started another company which
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employed almost 250 people. So I was
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able to do all this because it was so
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easy to become an American in the 80s if
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you had the right skills. You can't do
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that anymore. And this is what the
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problem is that now I teach at Duke,
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Stanford and uh been taught at Berkeley
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and Harvard and so on. And I hear the
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same horror stories from my students
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over and over again that they want to
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stay, they can't get a visa. Um, and
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then then others come and start talking
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about their friends that they fact that
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their friends have gone home and that
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they're they're doing really well back
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home and they say, "We'd like to stay
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here to get a couple of years
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experience. They apply for jobs.
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Companies won't hire them because they
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need H-1B visas and they aren't H-1B
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visas or the companies don't want to get
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the go through the negativity of being
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associated with H1Bs." So it's sort of
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lose-lose and the result is that um
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skilled people are leaving America in
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droves. If I had come here now I would
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have been stuck in immigration limbo
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like my students are like the
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entrepreneurs over here are. I would
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never have started a company. I would
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never have competed. I would have never
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have competed contributed to American
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competitiveness. I would never have been
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able to do anything for this great
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country if I was coming here today. And
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that's what the book is all about.
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So why do you think that the experience
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of skilled immigrants today is so
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different than yours was?
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Because when I applied for my green
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card, there was no backlog. There was no
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delay in visa processing. I simply had
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to go through the labor certification
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process which showed that uh I wasn't
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taking the job of an American away and
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then immediately I got my uh my green
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card. The whole process was as easy as
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could be. Today the problem is that
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first of all there are no H-1B visas for
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for for people to come here and work for
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American companies and then once u you
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start the process for a green card there
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no green cards available that the the
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the queue for green cards is so long
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that if you're an Indian or a Chinese it
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takes decades. So what happens is that
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you decide that you're going to become
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you want to now become a permanent
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resident. Your company files for you and
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um it takes a year, 5 years, 10 years,
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15 years, sometimes 17, 20 years that
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you're just stuck in in wait, you know,
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in limbo waiting for that green card.
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The problem is that once you have
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started the process of a green card and
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you've done the labor certification,
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which means that you've now proven that
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you're not taking the job on an American
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away, you're stuck in that same job. You
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can't change jobs. So, in that five or
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10 or 15 years, you can't go from being
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a program an analyst to being a project
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manager. You can't go from from being a
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writer to being an editor. You can't go
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you can't really change jobs. You're
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stuck in the same grunt job that you had
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when you started the process. So people
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waste their lives right now in in in the
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same tedious jobs that that they had
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before.
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One of the things you point out in your
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book is that skilled immigrants play a
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huge role in the US economy. I wonder if
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you could outline the major
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contributions to job growth and
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intellectual capital formation. So you
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know after I became an academic one of
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the first research projects I did was to
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document the contribution of skilled
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immigrants because I had a hunch that
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there were many other people like me who
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were making a big contribution to US
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competitiveness. First thing I did was I
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I did you know researched all the
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research that had been done on this
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subject and Analy Saxian who was then
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the dean of information dean of the
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school of information at Berkeley had
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documented that in the 80s um that a
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quarter of all the startups in Silicon
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Valley were founded by Indians and
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Chinese amazing research I contacted her
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and I said you know professor Saxian
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what's the latest on this and she
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basically says that look her research is
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now a decade old and no one has updated
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Her
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her belief was the numbers had increased
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dramatically because a lot of anecdotal
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evidence indicated that immigrant
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entrepreneurship had increased quite
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significantly but there was no
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up-to-date research. So I said, "Would
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you like to work with me on this
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research?" And absolutely. She said,
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"Absolutely. I'd love to work with you
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on it." And and we spent um you know,
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several months revising all of we used
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the same methodologies, the same
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the same data sets and updated her
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research and we were both shocked at
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what we found. What we found was that
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the trend that started in Silicon Valley
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had become a nationwide phenomena. that
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from 1995 to 2005 a quarter of all the
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startups in America were founded by
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immigrants by people like me by people
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like you and the number the proportion
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in Silicon Valley had increased to 52%.
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that during the the the days of the
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greatest economic growth in recent US
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history, the the tech boom, a 52% of
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startups in the most innovative land in
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America, the most innovative land in the
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world were founded by immigrants. 52%.
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That was just mind-blowing.
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Why and how did the immigrant startup
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machine begin to stall? And what were
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the main reasons?
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Well, the here's what happened after we
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published the research. I started
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getting emails from uh I mean the
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research made headline news in fact all
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over the world they were it was featured
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everywhere and then I started getting
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emails now I' had become a guru on
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immigration so people started writing to
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me to tell me about their problems um
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and and then even my students started
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talking to me about their problems and I
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started realizing there's a there's
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something wrong over here that uh the
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new crop of immigrants is not able to do
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what I was able to do which means join
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the workforce and become an American and
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become an entrepreneur when the time was
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right that they couldn't do what I could
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do. So, so I went back to Anno and and I
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said, "Ano, what do you know about the
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backlog of immigrants?" And she didn't
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know anything. So, we teamed up with a
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professor from New York University um
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you know, Willie Hasso and we decided to
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now look into what had happened since
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the the late '9s in and in the backlog.
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The Willie was an ex-commissioner from
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the for the immigration department and
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she tried getting data on the backlog.
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She couldn't get it. So we decided to
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create our own methodology for
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estimating the backlog of immigrants
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waiting for green cards. And we were
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again stunned at what we learned that
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there were 1 million skilled immigrants
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and their families waiting for green
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cards. 1 million. As of as of October
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26th, I believe 2006, there were million
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skilled immigrants in America waiting
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for green cards who were stuck in limbo.
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you know, everyone was talking uh about
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the unskilled immigrants, the
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undocumented workers or the illegal
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workers as as uh you know, as some
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segments of America call them who are
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stuck in who are who are in the America,
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you know, illegally. I mean, um there's
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a lot of talk about the illegals, but no
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one was talking about the legal skilled
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immigrants who were stuck waiting for
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green cards. And I looked at the data
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and I, you know, interviewed many people
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and I predicted that there would be a a
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massive reverse brain drain of talent.
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So we titled the the the you know the
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paper um um immigration intellectual
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property and the reverse brain drain and
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the title reverse brain drain created a
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lot of controversy. My co-authors felt
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uncomfortable with it because it was
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such a radical uh uh you know title to
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use in in an academic paper but but they
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you know this knew there was a problem
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and they they agreed to to leave it the
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way it was. And when we published that
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paper, it created major controversy
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because other academics started
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scrawning at the concept of a reverse
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brain drain. The emails I was getting,
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the discussion in in academic groups
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said that this is ridiculous. The US has
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never had a brain drain. The the brain
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drain is a European phenomena. It's an
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Indian phenomena. It's a Chinese
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phenomena. It's not an American thing.
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We don't have brain drains in America.
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Everyone laughed at it when that paper
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first came out. Today, no one no one
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doubts it. You know almost every major
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publication has written about it. The
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the Indian press, the Chinese press, the
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Brazilian press, everyone is talking
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about the reverse brain. It's widely
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established that what we predicted is
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happening that there's a massive reverse
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brain drain of talent right now from the
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US to other countries.
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The reverse brain drain is a trend that
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we see very clearly here on the UPEN
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campus. I wonder if you could speak a
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little bit about what you think is
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driving it and what some of the forces
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are that make it hard for skilled
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immigrants to stay on in America.
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Well, because the first reason is that
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they can't get visas. It's that simple.
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When they apply for jobs, no one will
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hire them because um there are no H-1B
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visas available in many years. Um and
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and then employers worry about all the
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paperwork, the political backlash. So,
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it's very hard to get a job um you know
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if you're a graduate of an if you're
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foreign graduate of an American
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university. That's number one. Number
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two, their friends who went back home
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are doing really well back there that
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they hear stories about, you know, going
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back and getting almost American. You
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don't get American salaries. You might
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get a half or a third of what you make
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over here, but for half a third what
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what you make in America living in New
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Delhi or Bangalore or Punea or Shanghai,
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you can live a very good lifestyle. So
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they hear stories about how their
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friends have gone back and are doing
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very well. And then the mindset overall
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has changed that you know when our
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generation came over here it used to be
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that uh we came on oneway tickets that
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you know our our families back home
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would expect that they'll never see us
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again. If you you know if you recall
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some of the most popular songs in India
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are chittyha I mean the Indian listeners
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will will uh will relate to that. all
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these these sad stories about um you
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know Indians who left and never came
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back and never saw their their parents
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and and their friends back and again
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that used to be the norm. Now it isn't.
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Now everyone talks to everyone back home
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and they realize how good things are
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over there. You can live very good
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lifestyles back in India and China and
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Brazil and so on. So so the mindset has
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completely changed. You no longer have
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to stay in America to be successful.
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You referred to the first reason as
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being the visa system, the H1B system.
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Could you from your perspective explain
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what's wrong with it and how can it be
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fixed?
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Uh the simple problem is that there
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aren't enough visas. It's that simple
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that there aren't enough green cards
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available for the hundreds of thousands
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of people who are waiting for these
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green cards. If we fix that one problem,
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we'll fix 80% of the problem. You'll
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still have the problem of opportunity
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back home. But you know if you're
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graduating from Duke or from Wharton in
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engineering and now you're joining uh
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you know top American company you're
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working you plan to be here for two or
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three years you tell your friends you'll
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come back in two or three years you end
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up falling in love with America you're
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doing good in your career why would you
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leave your job and go back to India when
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you're doing very well over here so now
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two or three years becomes four or five
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years in the meantime uh if you're a
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woman you find a really nice looking guy
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you end up getting married uh it happens
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the with with the guys, you end up
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becoming an American and you never go
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back. So the reality is if we just fix
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that one issue with the the numbers of
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visas, the problem would likely fix
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itself. It's that simple.
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What do you think are the main barriers
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to that problem getting fixed?
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Politics, politics, politics. We heard
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both Mitt Romney and Barack Obama in the
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debates talking about the importance of
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skilled immigrants. They agree on it,
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but they won't pass legislation which um
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you know fixes the problem. There was a
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STEM act that was led by the
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Republicans, you know, a couple of weeks
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ago which was defeated because the
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Democrats felt slighted that the
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Republicans didn't talk to them properly
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to get their approval for this thing.
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And the Republicans want to take the
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diversity visas away. It's all sort of
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petty politics that get in the way. The
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Republicans don't want to give the
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Democrats a victory. The Democrats don't
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want to give the Republicans a victory.
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So like spoiled brats, like spoiled
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teenagers, these, you know, these
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politicians are fighting each other. In
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the meantime, America bleeds. America
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bleeds competitiveness because our
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leaders are are acting like juveniles.
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At the same time, as you point out in
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your book, there are other places in the
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world, like Chile, for example, that are
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actively trying to recruit global
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talent. Do you think these efforts are
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succeeding? And what do you think the US
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should do to respond?
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You only have to go to Santiago to see
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the beehive of activity. You know,
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Santiago is now associated with
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entrepreneurship. You go to the startup
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Chile offices and you see dozens, you
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see actually hundreds of startups over
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there. You see the same type of activity
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you see in Silicon Valley. Optimism,
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energy, excitement, innovation. They are
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bound in Santiago because of America's
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stupid policies. Now, I have to do full
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disclosure over here. I helped design
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the startup Chile program because I, you
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know, Chile was looking for a way of
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boosting innovation. I said, "Look, the
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easiest way of fixing your problem of
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not having enough entrepreneurship and
00:14:19
innovation in Chile is to take advantage
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of America's stupidity. America's
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chasing away these immigrants. Bring
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them here to Santiago and watch the
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magic that happens. Santiago, Chile,
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Startup Chile is a huge runaway success
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right now because Chile took the chance.
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They offered these entrepreneurs $40,000
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to come there and just live for 6
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months. The result is that they have a
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booming ecosystem. America doesn't have
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to bribe people. People want to come
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here anyway. People will give America
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money to come here. In fact, they'll
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bring their life savings with them when
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they come here. They'll bring tens of
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thousands of dollars of savings with
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them. And then they'll get their friends
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back home and all over the world to
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invest hundreds of thousands of dollars
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in their startups for the right to be
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able to start their companies in
00:15:04
America. So, we have it made right now
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except we're being stupid.
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Vive, you offer seven fixes to help
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reverse the immigrant exodus. Could you
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take us through them?
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Um, I'm going to simplify them a little
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bit over here. First of all, we need to
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increase the number of visas. That that
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is the biggest hit over here. We need to
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have a startup visa, which means that
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anyone in the world that wants to start
00:15:25
a company over here, if they come here
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and the company employs X number of
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Americans over Y number of years, they
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become eligible for a green card. And
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then we need to fix the problems of the
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visas themselves. These H1B visas I
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talked about. They tie the worker to the
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employer. So it really is indentured
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servitude that that the anti-immigrant
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groups you know um rally against. U
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these visas are defective. Right now the
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the visa should not be ti the employer
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should not be tied to the company. What
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should happen is that if u a company
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wants to sponsor a skilled worker, fine
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the the worker is tied to the company
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for one year or two years, but after
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that they're free to go to any employer
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that offers them a a good salary. So if
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we fix that visa, it would fix the
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imbalance and it would fix the
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motivation of companies to take
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advantage of workers who are stuck in
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limbo. And then there's another problem
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with the H-1B visa that the spouses of
00:16:20
visas, the spouses of the visa holders
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can't work. Right now, women in Saudi
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Arabia have sometimes have more rights
00:16:26
than the spouses of H-1B workers, which
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is really sad that um you know, in some
00:16:31
states, they can't get driver's
00:16:32
licenses, which means they can't drive.
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They can't open bank accounts. I mean,
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is this America? I mean, this is
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ridiculous. So, these there's some basic
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defects with the visas themselves and
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then there aren't enough visas
00:16:45
available. Fix those and you fix
00:16:47
America. You fix America's
00:16:48
competitiveness. There's a lot lot more
00:16:49
in my book. brought it to life by by
00:16:52
showing stories of these skilled
00:16:54
immigrants trapped in limbo and
00:16:55
discusses in great depth. You know, I
00:16:58
encourage the viewers to read the book.
00:17:00
There's a lot lot more in it and and
00:17:02
it'll really tell you one of the ways to
00:17:03
fix America.
00:17:08
[Music]
