00:00:06
on this episode of women behind bars
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one woman allegedly set a fire that
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killed two sleeping children
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there was flame visible lapping out the
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front door
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either one it has been cooking for a
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long time or
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two it's had some help there was some
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kind of an
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explosion and i don't remember nothing
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after that until i was standing in the
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neighbor's living room talking to a
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private detective and a minister
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then linda pillius tells her story she
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pled guilty to stabbing a friend to
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death
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i guess i never really dealt with my
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anger that i've encountered from when i
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was a child
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he would show up here with knife marks
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black and blue
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he said yeah she'll probably end up
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killing me
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but i'm the only friend she's got in
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this world i can't turn my head on her
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two women two brutal crimes these are
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the stories of karen mullaly
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and linda pillius
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[Music]
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on the night of november 3rd 1985 karen
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milali was the only adult present at a
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house fire that killed two young
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children
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the oldest child came downstairs and
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woke me up and said
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karen there's a fire upstairs
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at first it appeared accidental but
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investigators suspected arson
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there were separate fires that had been
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started in that house that evening
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this was a circumstantial case but i
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thought an overwhelming case against
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miss millie i don't believe that she is
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that person who would do something to
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harm a child
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karen's friend and alleged lover patti
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turo had left karen alone with her
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children
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her lover showed an interest in another
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woman
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and this sparked an argument was karen
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mullelly a jealous woman
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seeking revenge or was she wrongly
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convicted of arson and murder
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[Music]
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although karen milali's father left the
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family when she was very young
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her mother soon remarried providing a
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happy childhood during her early years
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my mom meant this wonderful man and he
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moved her three weeks after he met her
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into a
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four bedroom house on the south side of
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the city
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my mom and my stepdad was always good to
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me
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at nine years old however the good times
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came to an end when a nun at karen's
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catholic school asked her to carry an
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envelope to the principal's office
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i was all excited thinking she picked me
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out of the whole class to do her a favor
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and i was whistling and skipping to the
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pencil's office
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and when i got there the principal read
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the note but the note to the principal
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accused her of destroying a math book
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the principal read the note
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and told me to put my hands out in front
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of me
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she started beating me with a thick
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paddle
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karen did not know what she had done
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wrong and as her frustration grew
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she fought back when i was trying to ask
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her why she was hitting me the more
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she'd hit me
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i just flipped and i started hitting her
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with the paddle
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as a result karen was sent to a nearby
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reform school
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she left home early she was basically on
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her own she said she was very
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independent of her family early on
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after three years karen was terrified
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that eventually she would be transferred
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from a reform school to prison
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a schoolmate told her one way to be sent
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home was to stage a suicide attempt
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so i put some belts together when i hear
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the house mother come with the dinner
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and i hear the keys i'll kick the chair
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that way she'll find me in time
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i didn't really try to commit suicide
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that time that was trying to do that
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just so i could get out of reform school
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it worked karen spent six months in an
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outreach program
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at a state hospital she then went home
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and tried to fit in
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i was good we lived around a lot of old
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italian people
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and i used to carry their groceries but
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karen claims she faced trouble at home
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as well
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i had a lot of depression because my
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mother's brother used to
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abuse me but i never told nobody
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i used to cry and he'd say this is a
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beautiful thing this is
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showing you how much i love you and this
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is our secret
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there were times karen says when she
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would have to endure the abuse for
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months
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when he would come and stay there at my
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mother's that's when i would act up and
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go back to the hospital
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the young teen was in and out of
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psychiatric care until she was 18.
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then as a high school dropout she
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married dennis malely
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whom she had been dating for three years
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i felt like i loved him as a person but
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i didn't have that shocking
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you know that good feeling about loving
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somebody
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weeks later karen left him but they
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never divorced
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then in 1980 after several relationships
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and a miscarriage
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she met a customer at a bar where she
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worked as a barmaid
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before i found out she was the girl i
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started catching feelings for her
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because she used to do really nice
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things for me
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she was an auto mechanic every time i
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seen her she was in her
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work clothes and she looked just like a
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little guy
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karen says they had gone out a few times
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before she realized her friend
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was a woman i noticed she had
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depressed i was shocked i still seen her
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after that for a while but then i said
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no this ain't for me
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two years later karen says she became
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distraught over a relationship with a
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man she was allegedly living with
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we were having a lot of problems and he
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was seeing somebody else
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i said i feel like i'd be better off if
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i was dead
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i turned all the gas on on the stove and
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tried to commit suicide
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by the gas according to court records
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the house caught fire
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i woke up sometime later and i lit a
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cigarette and there was an explosion
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and i had forgot i turned the gas on but
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they came in and got me
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the records also state that karen was
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not living with a man but that her
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roommate was a woman with whom she was
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having an affair
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considered a suspect karen was not
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prosecuted for arson
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instead she spent two weeks in hutchins
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psychiatric center in syracuse
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she had been involved in the other fires
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but had never been arrested after the
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incident karen chose not to seek
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additional counseling
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but instead continued drinking and
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spending her free time in bars
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i drank every day i didn't know until i
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came here but i was an alcoholic
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i didn't think i was because i was
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functional
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by 1985 karen had struck up a friendship
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with patty turo at the bar they both
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frequented
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patty was a young mother of two going
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through a bitter divorce
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and had started dating women we always
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had good times
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just partying playing pool he was on
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bowling leagues
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but patty's sister paula disliked karen
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right from the start
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she started dating different girls
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she met as karen and she was
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kind of loud you know obnoxious very
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straightforward
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i just didn't like her karen played
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poker on weekends at the house paddy and
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her children shared with her mother
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sister and nieces her nieces paula jean
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drinkwine who was eight
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and her sister danielle who was nine
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remember karen well
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we didn't like her when she came there
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because she was always mean and
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just really controlling over patty
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i remember her kind of being mean to
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patty the whole situation was new to us
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because she was
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just getting divorced paddy's children
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tracy and paulie turo were just toddlers
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when the women met
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they're like our little brother and
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sister really because we live we all
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live together so
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they were more than just cousins they
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were beautiful kids
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when tracy had just started kindergarten
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and probably knew what time she'd be
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coming down
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the um hill home and he'd be sitting
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there waiting for her
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the drink wines believe karen was drawn
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to patti because she did not have
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children of her own
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i had three pregnancies and i lost all
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my
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i had one i lost in my seventh month
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one i only carried for four months and
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my last
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one i had died at birth
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the two friends would go to gay bars
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which was considered taboo
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at the time in 1985 certainly in a
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mid-sized fairly conservative city which
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syracuse is
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nobody talked openly about same-sex
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relationships
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the nature of their friendship which was
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alleged to be sexual would become an
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important part of the case against karen
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it was kind of a romantic relationship
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but karen claims that although she
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thought about having sex with women
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she never went that far she insists her
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relationship with paddy was platonic
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after she dropped the bombshell at me
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and told me that she was in love with me
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i told her listen i'm not gay although
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they still maintained a friendship
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karen says she pulled away from patty
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after hearing about her feelings
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but that did not stop patty according to
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karen she kept nagging me and nagging me
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[Music]
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when women behind bars continues i feel
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terrible about those children and i
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still do to this day i still
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do but i couldn't get to them there was
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nothing i could do
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in 1985 32 year old karen mulleley
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struck up a friendship with patti turo
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a mother of two who had begun dating
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women after a bitter divorce
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[Music]
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for patti and karen it was a typical
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night out they'd been drinking
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throughout the afternoon
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and were at a bar competing in a pool
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tournament
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right after the pool tournament in did
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paddy said i got to go to the house and
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take the babies that are home by nine
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o'clock
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she said were you ride out there with me
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karen who claims she drank less than
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paddy says her friend was too drunk to
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drive and asked for the car keys
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we got out in the parking lot you
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wouldn't give me the keys
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but it was really cold outside so we
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stood in the parking lot arguing for
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about 25 minutes
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eventually karen says paddy sobered up
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enough to drive them to paddy's house in
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the syracuse suburb of baldwinsville
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paula gene and danielle drinkwine were
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still living with their aunt patty and
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cousins
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tracy and paulie we had a babysitter and
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she watched us
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for a few hours and then my aunt came
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home
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with her girlfriend karen patty karen
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the babysitter and the four children
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piled into the car to take the
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babysitter home on the way back
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from taking babies that are home the
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oldest
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child she wanted to go to mcdonald's
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after her activities over the weekend
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and drinking all day
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karen was tired she wanted to take the
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kids home
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first and put the two youngest ones to
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bed and she said you stay with them
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so then i said it's late and i just want
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to go to sleep
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you go to mcdonald's and i'll go lay
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down
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and you can take me on your way to work
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in the morning
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but the drink wines recall a different
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version of events one that karen denies
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we came back home and karen and i my
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aunt patty got into an
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argument karen
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was jealous she was jealous you know
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that patty was showing
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interest in somebody else she had
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another girl that liked her
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karen was a little bit spitting and
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jealous of
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patty seeing somebody else she thought
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that her lover was paying attention to
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another woman
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when she would eventually testify paddy
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would deny that she ever told karen
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about another woman
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patti left karen and the children at the
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house and drove to mcdonald's
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it was between 9 30 and 10 p.m karen
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made patty leave
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to go get her something to eat i
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remember that
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i really believed that she was just
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leaving to go out back out drinking and
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she wasn't going to mcdonald's
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and she just wanted that excuse for me
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to stay there with the kids
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i was just exhausted all i wanted to do
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really was go to sleep
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karen says she went downstairs to go to
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bed in the split level house
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the children were upstairs holly and
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tracy came in the room
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and they asked if they could sleep with
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us and we told them no
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that was the last time we seen him paula
00:12:54
jean and danielle were playing with a
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new toy they had gotten that day
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we were playing the game and i kept
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hearing
00:13:01
a funny noise like like clicking noise
00:13:05
and who didn't know what it was
00:13:08
i heard some weird noises and i thought
00:13:11
my sister was doing it and i
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asked her to stop danielle yelled at me
00:13:15
she was like cut it out stop doing
00:13:16
whatever you're doing i'm like i'm not
00:13:18
doing anything
00:13:20
it was like a crackling noise and
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so i got up and i seen this huge fire
00:13:27
her eyes just opened up and she's like
00:13:29
there's a fire in the house
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and she ran
00:13:35
danielle ran to a neighbor's house for
00:13:37
help paula jean
00:13:38
stayed and called for her cousins
00:13:40
through the flames
00:13:41
i went almost face to face with the fire
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paula jean thought tracy and paulie were
00:13:47
sleeping in her grandmother's room
00:13:49
the heat quickly spread to that area i
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yelled for them and i yelled for them
00:13:54
but they never came unable to find her
00:13:57
cousins as the fire spread
00:13:59
paula jean ran to get karen i went
00:14:01
downstairs and she was lying on the bed
00:14:03
in the basement
00:14:04
like she was sleeping and i kind of had
00:14:06
to wake her up and say there's
00:14:07
the house is on fire according to karen
00:14:10
she sent paula gene out of the house
00:14:12
and then went to rescue tracy and paulie
00:14:15
who were still inside
00:14:16
i started to crawl towards the ex the
00:14:20
way where the doorway was for his
00:14:21
grandmother's bedroom
00:14:23
but the children were not in that room
00:14:26
there was some kind of an explosion
00:14:29
and i don't remember nothing after that
00:14:31
until i was standing in the
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neighbor's living room talking to a
00:14:36
private detective and a minister
00:14:40
fire chief tom perkins was suspicious of
00:14:42
the fire from the moment he arrived
00:14:44
we envisioned heavy smoke coming from
00:14:47
this house
00:14:49
it was flame visible lapping out the
00:14:51
front door
00:14:53
as we were going in which is an
00:14:54
indication that either
00:14:56
one it has been cooking for a long time
00:14:58
or two it's had some help
00:15:01
shortly after the arrival inside the
00:15:02
house our first
00:15:04
hose line crew came upon the body of one
00:15:07
of the children
00:15:08
paula drink wine and her mother returned
00:15:10
home from bingo as the firefighters
00:15:12
doused the flames
00:15:14
i went to my neighbors and said you know
00:15:17
you know where's the kids rescue teams
00:15:20
found tracy's lifeless body on a landing
00:15:22
paulie was in his room he had been
00:15:25
hiding under the bunk bed
00:15:26
clutching a toy
00:15:30
paddy was you know hysterical they took
00:15:33
her and my mother to the hospital
00:15:36
and we did find a body under a bed on
00:15:39
the second floor
00:15:40
and we also found the body the lower
00:15:42
landing on the
00:15:43
lower level of the house the children
00:15:46
died of smoke inhalation
00:15:48
i love them i feel terrible about those
00:15:51
children and i still do to this day
00:15:54
i couldn't bring him back i couldn't get
00:15:56
to them there was nothing i could do
00:15:59
the next day investigators continued
00:16:01
interviewing witnesses
00:16:03
both the children who escaped from the
00:16:05
fire as well as their
00:16:07
aunt their accounts of what happened
00:16:09
that night were in contrast to what
00:16:12
karen mulleley was telling us karen's
00:16:14
initial version of events gave
00:16:16
investigators cause to be suspicious
00:16:18
there was a babysitter watching the four
00:16:20
children that night pat terrell
00:16:22
came home with karen milali and it was
00:16:25
determined that
00:16:26
all the kids would come with pat and
00:16:29
karen
00:16:29
as they took the babysitter home that is
00:16:32
not what karen malely told us
00:16:34
the children also told us what happened
00:16:36
while their
00:16:38
aunt was gone to get food and that
00:16:40
contradicted what karen malely told us
00:16:44
i told him the truth after i mean i told
00:16:46
him
00:16:48
as it came back to me we believed that
00:16:51
she was not being honest
00:16:53
and that for some reason she was
00:16:54
covering up what actually occurred
00:16:57
for her own benefit we had no reason to
00:17:00
believe
00:17:00
that the children were not being honest
00:17:03
with us
00:17:04
the fire department also had reason to
00:17:06
believe that this could be a case of
00:17:08
arson
00:17:08
there were actually at least three
00:17:11
different starts
00:17:14
so it was determined that was suspicious
00:17:17
william fitzpatrick was a successful and
00:17:19
respected prosecutor
00:17:21
known for an excellent trial record and
00:17:23
high conviction rate
00:17:24
there was some thought that it might
00:17:25
have been an accidental fire my own
00:17:27
standard is not just beyond a reasonable
00:17:29
doubt it's beyond any shot of the doubt
00:17:31
as i sit here right now i would stake my
00:17:33
life on the fact that karen maleli set
00:17:35
those fires and killed those two
00:17:37
children
00:17:38
encouraged by this certainty officials
00:17:41
called on one of the area's top
00:17:42
arson investigators arson is an
00:17:44
extremely
00:17:45
difficult crime to prove because by its
00:17:48
very nature the evidence is consumed
00:17:51
so we employed the dance to offer i was
00:17:54
looking
00:17:54
to see number one where the fire started
00:17:58
and if we could determine the heat
00:17:59
source
00:18:00
staffer rolled out a furnace or
00:18:02
electrical fire and uncovered a key to
00:18:04
the case
00:18:05
we had more than one area of origin in
00:18:08
the house
00:18:08
at different levels and that the only
00:18:11
conclusion that could be drawn is that
00:18:12
the heat source had to be humanly
00:18:14
induced by somebody
00:18:15
we would never play with matches we
00:18:17
would never set our house on fire and
00:18:19
we would never leave our cousins behind
00:18:21
prosecutors did not believe the drink
00:18:23
wine girls had set the fires
00:18:25
despite their feelings about karen we
00:18:28
may have not liked karen or been scared
00:18:30
of her but we didn't want to hurt her
00:18:32
the fires were either set by the
00:18:33
children or by miss milali and i think
00:18:35
the overwhelming
00:18:37
evidence pointed clearly to karen
00:18:40
milnelli
00:18:42
when women behind bars continues i
00:18:44
should have been able to take the stand
00:18:46
in my own behalf i've never been able to
00:18:48
be heard
00:18:49
and later linda pillias faces murder
00:18:52
charges in the stabbing death of a man
00:18:54
who gave her a place to live dennis and
00:18:56
i were arguing over
00:18:58
a piece of crack and he got violent
00:19:01
so i grabbed a knife and i stabbed him
00:19:08
twice
00:19:13
on the night of november 3rd 1985 two
00:19:16
young children died in a house fire near
00:19:18
syracuse new york
00:19:20
at first it appeared to be accidental
00:19:22
but investigators came to suspect
00:19:24
thirty-three-year-old karen milali the
00:19:26
only adult present
00:19:27
of arson it became a sensational story
00:19:30
making local headlines
00:19:32
karen mullelly had been involved in at
00:19:34
least three other fires
00:19:37
which were suspicious in nature they
00:19:39
weren't allowed to be
00:19:41
brought into evidence however we had
00:19:43
uncovered information
00:19:44
and the patterns in those fires were
00:19:46
very very consistent
00:19:47
with the fire that had been set that
00:19:49
night she was a suspect
00:19:51
in in those fires and one of them was an
00:19:53
incident where she
00:19:55
apparently set the fire herself in an
00:19:57
effort to kill herself
00:19:58
which is probably what happened here
00:20:01
karen milali was never charged for the
00:20:03
other incidents
00:20:04
but they were reported in the news
00:20:06
before her arrest a lot of that
00:20:07
information came out and was publicized
00:20:09
prior to the trial
00:20:10
which is kind of like setting a jury up
00:20:14
to know facts that they really aren't
00:20:16
supposed to know but they know
00:20:17
because it's a small community nearly
00:20:20
three months after the fire
00:20:21
karen had not consulted an attorney but
00:20:23
knew she was a suspect
00:20:25
investigators had questioned her and
00:20:27
given her lie detector tests which were
00:20:29
inconclusive
00:20:30
nonetheless the case against her was
00:20:32
building
00:20:36
i knew they was coming to get me i said
00:20:38
i'm not going nowhere so i didn't do
00:20:40
nothing and
00:20:41
they can't get away with this karen was
00:20:44
arrested and assigned an attorney
00:20:46
the case went before a grand jury to
00:20:48
determine if there was enough evidence
00:20:49
to go to trial
00:20:50
this was a circumstantial case but i
00:20:52
thought an overwhelming case against
00:20:54
miss milali immediately prior to the
00:20:56
grand jury presentation
00:20:58
the girls are confronted by the
00:21:00
prosecutor of the case
00:21:02
and they are asked whether or not the
00:21:04
sound they hear
00:21:06
is consistent with a lighter fitzpatrick
00:21:08
separated the drink wine girls and asked
00:21:10
them about the noises they heard that
00:21:12
night
00:21:13
tried some different sounds and when we
00:21:15
went to the sound of the
00:21:16
of the bic lighter vision being
00:21:18
obstructed
00:21:19
both kids independently said boy that
00:21:21
sounds exactly like what we heard
00:21:24
instead of hearing a crackling like wood
00:21:26
burning now they're hearing
00:21:28
uh a lighter
00:21:31
and they're hearing not just a lighter
00:21:32
but a specific number of of clicks
00:21:35
and you have to say to yourself is that
00:21:37
really humanly possible or were these
00:21:39
kids
00:21:41
somehow coached into saying it it's not
00:21:43
unusual
00:21:44
for a child witness or for any witness
00:21:46
to recall some things
00:21:49
later on that might be important to an
00:21:51
investigation
00:21:52
i was fairly confident that what they
00:21:55
were saying was their accurate
00:21:56
recollection
00:21:57
with enough evidence prosecutors decided
00:21:59
to move forward
00:22:01
karen was charged with four counts of
00:22:03
second-degree murder
00:22:04
and second and fourth degree arson the
00:22:06
case went to trial in july
00:22:08
she's got two of the best defense
00:22:09
lawyers in onondaga county representing
00:22:11
her
00:22:12
they were very very skilled lawyers both
00:22:13
of them and both very very good in the
00:22:15
courtroom
00:22:16
the prosecution had a long witness list
00:22:19
some of the most memorable testimony
00:22:21
came from paula gene drinkwine
00:22:23
it was uncanny she leaned forward click
00:22:26
click click lean back and just sat there
00:22:28
for a minute
00:22:29
it was just an incredible thing to see a
00:22:32
child do
00:22:33
under all that pressure it was
00:22:35
compelling
00:22:36
but karen says her mother was prepared
00:22:38
to testify that weeks before
00:22:40
she had taken a lighter from young
00:22:42
polyturo and gotten into an argument
00:22:44
with patti
00:22:45
she said give it back to him he can play
00:22:47
with it he plays with my lighter all the
00:22:48
time
00:22:50
he even lights my cigarettes the defense
00:22:52
did not call
00:22:53
karen's mother as a witness they didn't
00:22:56
appear to want to blame the dead
00:22:58
children
00:22:58
thinking it may offend somebody you know
00:23:01
but
00:23:02
the facts are the facts if the facts say
00:23:04
there's a likelihood that these kids did
00:23:06
it
00:23:06
that's where you got to go the drink
00:23:08
wine's testimony was important
00:23:10
but prosecutors had another key witness
00:23:13
the most compelling evidence for me
00:23:14
against karen mullerley clearly was the
00:23:16
separate areas of
00:23:18
origin of this arson fire
00:23:21
there was a fire in this laundry basket
00:23:23
and as the basket began to collapse it
00:23:26
just
00:23:26
the actual flame involvement went
00:23:27
straight up hit the ceiling tiles had no
00:23:30
place to go and started move
00:23:32
horizontal across the ceiling before it
00:23:34
went out
00:23:35
the critical thing was was the fire
00:23:37
investigator and i think that's where
00:23:39
it was probably what the defense was
00:23:40
trying to show is that that might have
00:23:42
been a drop
00:23:42
down in other words there was fire
00:23:44
upstairs and that it might have spread
00:23:46
through the floor
00:23:46
and dropped down i think their strategy
00:23:49
was
00:23:50
really to poke holes at what the
00:23:53
prosecution
00:23:54
presented and to simply claim that
00:23:57
the charges weren't proved beyond a
00:23:58
reasonable doubt the defense questioned
00:24:00
stauffer
00:24:01
but rested without calling a single
00:24:03
witness
00:24:04
they should have an expert come in and
00:24:06
say look children start fires
00:24:09
they start them all the time and they
00:24:11
aren't
00:24:12
able to disprove the fact that in this
00:24:13
particular case the fire wasn't started
00:24:16
by these children
00:24:18
i should have been able to take the
00:24:19
stand in my own behalf i've never been
00:24:21
able to be heard
00:24:27
it took the 10 woman two-man jury just
00:24:29
over four hours to reach the verdicts
00:24:31
karen mullally was found guilty of two
00:24:33
counts of second-degree murder in the
00:24:34
deaths of tracy and paul churro
00:24:36
the children of her lover mullally was
00:24:39
also found guilty of fourth degree arson
00:24:41
they had no evidence whatsoever to
00:24:43
convict me of that crime
00:24:47
and then there was a lot of stuff that
00:24:49
was done there was
00:24:51
it was not right i believe it was the
00:24:55
the the quality testimony that the fire
00:24:58
investigator presented at the trial
00:25:00
together with the testimony certainly of
00:25:02
the two girls
00:25:03
that led to the jury finding her guilty
00:25:07
although it was nice for the jury to
00:25:08
have a motive that
00:25:10
this woman you know had an explosive
00:25:13
temper
00:25:14
and was angry at another it really could
00:25:16
have improved
00:25:18
even without that
00:25:28
i was innocent i i was devastated i
00:25:32
i just couldn't believe it i've been
00:25:35
here 23 years
00:25:37
for something i didn't do
00:25:42
they always say they're innocent you
00:25:44
know i say
00:25:45
put her in a room and said i'm fired let
00:25:48
her try to get out
00:25:49
that's an eye for an eye right paddy
00:25:52
turo
00:25:53
and karen milali are no longer in
00:25:55
contact paddy has never remarried or had
00:25:58
any more children
00:25:59
if you start talking about it she just
00:26:02
goes in the other room or walks away she
00:26:04
just she can't deal with it she can't
00:26:05
talk about it she doesn't even look at
00:26:07
the photo she won't look at them
00:26:10
now she has animals that's her kid she
00:26:13
has a lot of animals but
00:26:15
that doesn't replace kids
00:26:17
[Music]
00:26:18
karen still denies she was ever patty's
00:26:20
lover
00:26:21
she filed appeals to overturn the case
00:26:24
but they were denied
00:26:25
she believes she's innocent in my
00:26:27
opinion the facts kind of support that
00:26:29
she's innocent
00:26:30
at age 57 karen says she is in poor
00:26:33
health
00:26:36
my worst nightmare is that i'm gonna die
00:26:38
in prison for something i didn't do
00:26:41
karen is eligible for parole in two
00:26:43
years which worries the drinkwine family
00:26:46
i don't think that she should get out of
00:26:48
jail she
00:26:50
destroyed many many lives forever and
00:26:53
it's
00:26:54
for us it's never gonna end so why
00:26:57
should prison end for her
00:26:58
but after more than two decades at
00:27:00
bedford hills correctional facility
00:27:02
her fellow inmates believe karen has
00:27:04
earned parole physically
00:27:06
emotionally mentally spiritually
00:27:09
she's paid her dues she's paid her debt
00:27:12
to society and i just hope
00:27:13
that they can forgive her even if she
00:27:16
doesn't forgive herself
00:27:18
asserting her innocence it scares karen
00:27:20
to know that she may never be released
00:27:22
i've been here 23 years and it's just
00:27:25
not right that i have to suffer like
00:27:26
this for something i didn't do
00:27:31
when women behind bars continues i was
00:27:34
crazy jealous i didn't mean it to happen
00:27:37
but i snapped
00:27:41
for more information about women behind
00:27:43
bars go to
00:27:46
wetv.com
00:27:54
in the early morning hours after labor
00:27:56
day weekend in 2004
00:27:58
linda pillius a drifter with a history
00:28:00
of violence and mental illness
00:28:02
stabbed and killed her friend dennis
00:28:04
titus i said dennis she's trouble
00:28:06
you better watch out and he said i can
00:28:08
handle her i noticed
00:28:10
the big change in linda the minute you
00:28:12
added alcohol to her
00:28:14
i was crazy that's why i was on so many
00:28:17
meds
00:28:17
i think she was just very evil not
00:28:20
necessarily insane
00:28:22
was lindapilius a woman who was overcome
00:28:25
by her addictions
00:28:26
or a manipulative killer with a chilling
00:28:28
violent history
00:28:33
i was close to my mother however i was
00:28:37
not close to my father
00:28:38
i was physically abused mentally
00:28:41
emotionally abused by him
00:28:43
i just never had high self-esteem
00:28:46
linda couldn't even stand her father
00:28:48
claim that he's the one that
00:28:51
did everything to her in her past that
00:28:53
created her problems
00:28:55
according to linda she was diagnosed
00:28:57
with a variety of mental problems as a
00:28:59
young teen
00:28:59
and was given medications her early life
00:29:02
was lived in a haze of drugs
00:29:04
i don't think i ever got to know myself
00:29:06
because i was
00:29:07
drugged up since 13 years old
00:29:10
14. that i didn't give myself a chance
00:29:14
to grow
00:29:15
emotionally or mentally as a teenager
00:29:18
she also developed a drinking habit
00:29:20
and left home it was my whole life just
00:29:22
drinking and drugging
00:29:23
and using and going from one place to
00:29:26
another
00:29:27
running around the countryside doing
00:29:29
what i could do
00:29:31
to survive by 1980 linda was living in
00:29:34
san diego and learned she was pregnant
00:29:37
before her son robert was born the boy's
00:29:39
father left
00:29:40
linda i thought that he would love me
00:29:43
and i would love him
00:29:44
forever i didn't realize the
00:29:47
responsibilities of taking care of a
00:29:49
child
00:29:50
according to linda she could not care
00:29:52
for robert on her own
00:29:53
so they went back home to live closer to
00:29:55
her family in new york
00:29:59
having a son brought her happiness but
00:30:02
linda's addictions were strong
00:30:04
she and a boyfriend were out one night
00:30:05
when they met a woman at a bar
00:30:07
linda attempted to rob her but things
00:30:09
quickly got out of hand
00:30:11
i always carried a knife they were
00:30:13
fighting and i took the knife out and i
00:30:15
stabbed her
00:30:16
while being under the influence i
00:30:18
blacked out
00:30:21
linda stabbed the woman and beat her
00:30:22
with a candlestick the woman survived
00:30:25
i guess i never really dealt with my
00:30:27
anger that i've encountered from when i
00:30:30
was a child
00:30:31
her son robert went to live with an aunt
00:30:33
when linda went to prison for
00:30:35
second-degree attempted murder
00:30:37
after serving the minimum sentence she
00:30:39
was released on parole
00:30:41
looking for a fresh start linda moved to
00:30:43
rochester
00:30:44
she wanted to bring her son robert back
00:30:46
into her life
00:30:48
my sister wouldn't let me have custody
00:30:50
of my son and
00:30:51
i was very depressed over that and
00:30:54
started drinking again
00:30:55
trying to break the cycle linda enrolled
00:30:57
in an addicts program tailored to her
00:30:59
needs
00:31:00
that's where she met brian de la
00:31:01
franiere they dated for eight years
00:31:04
she was involved in my family holidays
00:31:07
she could cook clean she'd do
00:31:09
anything to go out of her way to help
00:31:10
somebody as brian and linda faced their
00:31:13
addictions together their bond grew
00:31:15
she was honest with him about her
00:31:17
sadistic past
00:31:18
i knew that she had gotten out of jail
00:31:20
for attempted murder those were her
00:31:22
first charges
00:31:24
but i had no fear of linda i never seen
00:31:26
that in her
00:31:28
between 1991 and 1994 linda's life began
00:31:32
to get on track
00:31:33
she held down jobs at local shops went
00:31:35
to counseling at rochester psychiatric
00:31:37
hospital and even developed a love for
00:31:39
animals
00:31:40
one thing myself and linda had in common
00:31:42
was we had a dog
00:31:43
his name was max and that was linda's
00:31:46
life right there as well as the two
00:31:48
lovebirds in the cockatiel that we had
00:31:51
but staying employed was hard for linda
00:31:54
she gave in to the pull of her
00:31:55
addictions
00:31:57
i had more self-esteem when i
00:32:00
drank and used and i would feel
00:32:04
normal the minute linda started doing
00:32:07
street drugs cocaine heroin alcohol
00:32:10
that's when she stopped doing her mental
00:32:11
health medications i could have stopped
00:32:14
but i didn't want to stop
00:32:15
even with mental meds it didn't kill
00:32:18
that pain
00:32:19
as good as the alcohol and the drugs did
00:32:22
brian worked hard to stay sober but
00:32:24
linda continued to lose control
00:32:27
she became dangerous company to keep i
00:32:30
loved
00:32:30
linda as much as a person could love her
00:32:32
and then eventually it came to a point
00:32:34
where
00:32:35
i couldn't when she attacked me with the
00:32:37
knife
00:32:38
at that point i couldn't live with her
00:32:40
anymore linda
00:32:42
later moved in with brian's mother and
00:32:43
had support when she was diagnosed with
00:32:45
a life-threatening form of cancer
00:32:47
i did full body radiation it went into
00:32:50
remission for
00:32:51
only one year and then it came back she
00:32:54
had people that loved her people that
00:32:55
cared for
00:32:56
people that would do stuff or help her
00:32:58
out when she was in her
00:33:00
difficult times with her having cancer
00:33:03
even with his family committed to
00:33:05
helping her
00:33:06
linda abused their trust by 2002
00:33:09
brian's family could no longer deal with
00:33:11
linda and told her she had to leave
00:33:13
by 2003 linda had found her way to
00:33:16
scottsville a suburb of rochester where
00:33:18
she met landscape designer and handyman
00:33:20
dennis titus he was just one of those
00:33:23
special souls
00:33:24
he said oh well she's dying of cancer
00:33:28
and she's really a nice person
00:33:30
and i want to help her out his friend
00:33:32
and neighbor nancy meyer agreed to give
00:33:34
linda a room in her boarding house as a
00:33:36
favor to dennis
00:33:37
she appeared to be very very nice but
00:33:40
just something
00:33:41
didn't click with her dennis was
00:33:44
a friend and a lover i loved him very
00:33:47
much
00:33:48
but dennis's friends and family say it
00:33:50
was not a romance
00:33:52
there was no relationship there they
00:33:54
didn't like each other
00:33:55
at least i know dennis didn't like her
00:33:58
maybe she thought the other way but
00:33:59
i don't know he never told him we had a
00:34:02
relationship
00:34:04
he just told him that he was helping me
00:34:06
out
00:34:07
linda claims that she and dennis like to
00:34:09
do drugs together
00:34:11
he introduced me to crack cocaine so we
00:34:14
started using together
00:34:16
and that's when he started getting
00:34:18
abusive towards me
00:34:20
but people who knew dennis say he liked
00:34:22
to drink but did not use drugs
00:34:24
they think he was the victim he would
00:34:27
show up here
00:34:28
with knife marks black and blue he said
00:34:31
yeah she'll probably end up killing me
00:34:32
hahahaha but he said you know i i
00:34:35
i'm the only friend she's got in this
00:34:37
world
00:34:38
i can't turn my head on her nancy says a
00:34:41
tenant moved out when linda threatened
00:34:42
to kill her
00:34:43
nancy later forced linda out too and
00:34:46
dennis took her in
00:34:47
it was a camper but he made it into like
00:34:50
a little trailer
00:34:51
and i moved in with him there right next
00:34:53
to his parents house
00:34:55
he's well she's at my place just for a
00:34:57
couple nights
00:34:59
and i said dennis she's trouble you
00:35:01
better watch
00:35:02
out and he said i can handle her when
00:35:05
women behind bars continues
00:35:07
she stabbed him i mean there's no
00:35:09
getting around that
00:35:10
she stabbed dennis titus
00:35:20
for decades linda pillias a cancer
00:35:22
patient convicted felon an aggressive
00:35:24
drug abuser
00:35:25
struggled to live a normal life without
00:35:28
a place to live
00:35:28
she had nowhere to go landscape designer
00:35:31
dennis titus
00:35:32
took her in for a few months then he
00:35:34
tried to get her to move out
00:35:36
i didn't want to leave and every week he
00:35:39
would tell me get out get out
00:35:41
he'd kick me out
00:35:46
as indian summer waned in upstate new
00:35:48
york dennis took two family friends
00:35:50
a woman and her stepdaughter on a boat
00:35:52
ride along the river near his house
00:35:55
instead of joining them linda took
00:35:57
dennis's truck into the city of
00:35:58
rochester
00:35:59
i thought he was cheating on me and then
00:36:02
that made me even more crazier
00:36:04
than what i was i went into the city
00:36:08
to cop some drugs and then coming back i
00:36:11
stopped
00:36:12
at the bar to have some drinks linda
00:36:15
returned to the mobile home in the early
00:36:16
morning hours and had an argument with
00:36:18
dennis
00:36:19
dennis and i were arguing over a piece
00:36:23
of crack
00:36:24
who would get it and he got violent
00:36:28
and i was trying to fight him back at
00:36:31
first
00:36:32
but i didn't have the energy so i
00:36:35
grabbed a knife and i stabbed him twice
00:36:38
linda says she was not only angry about
00:36:40
the crack but also jealous of dennis's
00:36:42
divided attention that day
00:36:45
i was crazy jealous i didn't mean it to
00:36:48
happen
00:36:49
but i snapped just after he was stabbed
00:36:52
dennis managed to get to his parents
00:36:54
house next door where his mother called
00:36:56
9-1-1
00:36:57
before he passed out dennis told his
00:36:59
mother that linda had stabbed him
00:37:01
it's a rural area it's three o'clock in
00:37:04
the morning the victim was on the ground
00:37:05
he wasn't able to talk
00:37:07
so we didn't know actually where the
00:37:08
stabbing occurred
00:37:10
so we just had to start checking the
00:37:11
area for the female
00:37:13
another 911 call came from the area of
00:37:16
51 erie station road for a female white
00:37:19
that was
00:37:19
banging on the door edwards was one of
00:37:22
the deputies who responded to the call
00:37:24
employees from a roadside donut shop
00:37:26
alerted them that pilius was inside
00:37:29
she had dried up blood on her arms and
00:37:31
she was just kind of like leaning down
00:37:33
into the
00:37:34
table with her head down in her arms she
00:37:36
did not say anything
00:37:37
we just directed her to get down on the
00:37:39
ground where we took her into custody
00:37:40
without any incident
00:37:42
linda was taken to a nearby hospital
00:37:44
where she was questioned by police
00:37:45
she was very manipulative from the start
00:37:48
of it
00:37:48
she would go in and out of moods you
00:37:51
know she had to be tied down to hospital
00:37:53
and i didn't want to talk i was so upset
00:37:57
when investigator vaughn was eventually
00:37:59
able to question her
00:38:00
linda seemed to be testing her limits i
00:38:02
think she was trying to achieve to be a
00:38:04
victim
00:38:05
to play the victim and i don't believe
00:38:07
she was a victim
00:38:09
linda calmed down and provided an oral
00:38:11
statement to officers
00:38:12
she confronted death about what happened
00:38:14
with the girls she asked him if he
00:38:16
wanted to have sex with the girls
00:38:18
he said yes but they didn't want to so
00:38:20
she became mad
00:38:21
and then she said she grabbed the knife
00:38:24
and stabbed them
00:38:25
twice in the chest when taken to the
00:38:27
sheriff's office for further questioning
00:38:29
linda's story changed in her written
00:38:31
statement she said that she was telling
00:38:33
the truth
00:38:33
this time this was the actual story
00:38:37
she said dennis was angry because she
00:38:39
took his truck into town and that dennis
00:38:41
was the one who grabbed the knife
00:38:43
with differing stories prosecutor
00:38:45
catherine wagner would have to piece the
00:38:47
events together for herself
00:38:48
because dennis titus and linda peleus
00:38:51
were the only two people in that trailer
00:38:53
when this crime occurred
00:38:54
we'll never know exactly how it happened
00:38:58
in both accounts prosecutors had a key
00:39:00
to the investigation
00:39:01
the most beneficial part of the
00:39:02
statement is that she stabbed him i mean
00:39:04
there's no getting around that she
00:39:07
stabbed
00:39:08
dennis titus a few hours after he was
00:39:11
admitted to the hospital
00:39:12
dennis titus died the knife used to stab
00:39:15
him had cut one of the main arteries in
00:39:17
his heart
00:39:18
the crime was now a murder case we ended
00:39:20
up taking her to the court
00:39:22
for arraignment at the judge's chamber
00:39:24
she became difficult again with the
00:39:26
judge and didn't initially want to
00:39:27
listen to him
00:39:28
linda was immediately arrested and sent
00:39:30
to county jail to await trial for
00:39:32
dennis's murder
00:39:33
that same day prosecutors met with
00:39:35
dennis's parents
00:39:36
they were very upset that lindapilius
00:39:39
was painting a
00:39:40
very incorrect picture of their son that
00:39:42
he was
00:39:43
a batterer of her that was completely
00:39:45
untrue
00:39:46
and they felt very upset about that
00:39:48
linda may have led dennis to think he
00:39:50
was her only friend
00:39:52
but investigators talked to people who
00:39:53
knew her and uncovered linda's history
00:39:55
of violence
00:39:56
linda pillius was a troublemaker i don't
00:39:59
think he knew how bad
00:40:01
i don't think he knew about her history
00:40:03
or he wouldn't have allowed her to live
00:40:04
with him
00:40:05
it became clear that dennis and those
00:40:07
close to him had no
00:40:08
idea about her past nobody knew anything
00:40:11
about her
00:40:12
i didn't know i don't know what her name
00:40:15
was linda that was it
00:40:17
when i heard about it all i seen was
00:40:19
visions running through my head that
00:40:21
that could have been me according to
00:40:23
police linda's behavior remained bizarre
00:40:26
her stories contradicted most of what
00:40:27
investigators learned in their
00:40:29
questioning
00:40:30
her attorney filed for a psychiatric
00:40:32
evaluation you
00:40:33
need to be able to be aware of your
00:40:36
charges
00:40:37
have a basic sense of what they are on
00:40:39
the severity of them
00:40:40
and you also need to be able to work
00:40:42
with your attorney
00:40:43
in order to be incompetent you have to
00:40:46
have
00:40:47
some sort of mental defect or disease
00:40:51
the evaluation consists essentially of
00:40:53
observing and talking to the person they
00:40:55
can last
00:40:56
from 15 minutes to two hours and it all
00:40:59
depends on the seriousness of the
00:41:01
charges and also
00:41:02
the kind of issues that are being dealt
00:41:05
with
00:41:06
her interview lasted 15 minutes linda's
00:41:08
behavior was described as atypical for
00:41:10
mental disorder
00:41:12
he felt that she was trying to act crazy
00:41:15
in order to not go forward
00:41:19
with her case or to stay in the
00:41:21
psychiatric center
00:41:22
instead of going to the jail to await
00:41:24
her trial it was another tactic to avoid
00:41:27
facing the charges by 2005 doctors
00:41:30
decided linda pillius was competent to
00:41:33
stand trial
00:41:34
in a preliminary hearing a judge denied
00:41:36
linda's claim that the statement she
00:41:37
gave to investigators was forcibly made
00:41:40
i decided to plead guilty because
00:41:43
i didn't want to take it to trial and
00:41:45
put his family through a lot of stuff
00:41:48
i felt guilty for what i did to him i
00:41:50
felt like i deserved the time
00:41:53
i felt like i was a menace to society
00:41:56
and that i don't deserve to be
00:41:57
let out
00:42:05
because of her history wagner asked the
00:42:07
court to consider the interests of
00:42:08
society when sentencing peleus
00:42:10
i asked for the most serious sentence
00:42:13
she could receive
00:42:14
which was 25 years
00:42:18
my sentence is 22 years flat
00:42:21
i'll be 65 by the time i leave here if i
00:42:24
make it
00:42:25
killing somebody i don't think sentence
00:42:26
is long enough i think it was a joke
00:42:29
he assaulted others before with the
00:42:30
intent to kill she's just
00:42:32
an evil woman and she deserves to be
00:42:35
where she is
00:42:36
when you take somebody else's life and
00:42:38
you get 22
00:42:39
no it's not enough not for killing
00:42:42
somebody else
00:42:43
no some feel linda will succumb to her
00:42:46
disease before she is released from
00:42:48
prison
00:42:48
22 years for this woman is a long time
00:42:52
and it might be a life sentence for her
00:42:54
anyway
00:42:56
i got a chance to apologize to his
00:42:59
parents
00:43:00
linda recalls an unplanned meeting with
00:43:02
dennis's parents in the hospital
00:43:04
immediately following the death of their
00:43:06
son when i was going out to the hospital
00:43:09
in rochester i was shocked that they
00:43:12
were sitting there
00:43:15
and i looked at his mother and i said
00:43:17
please forgive me
00:43:20
i said please forgive me
00:43:23
and she just looked and looked away
00:43:27
though he has not been a part of linda's
00:43:29
life for a long time brian still thinks
00:43:31
about her
00:43:32
i just wish her the best i feel sorry
00:43:34
for her i wish that
00:43:36
her life could have been different i go
00:43:38
to church and i believe
00:43:41
that the good lord is going to help me
00:43:44
give me strength to endure
00:43:46
september 7 2004 means to me
00:43:50
a day of hell it took away my rights
00:43:55
to live in society he was a good man
00:43:58
and i wish i could take it back
00:44:02
but i can't
00:44:10
you
