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Disturbing Reality Of Investigating Thousands Of Crime Scenes

February 11, 202601:55:30

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Welcome to the Domavvey podcast. Great

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conversations with fascinating people.

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On this episode, forensic scientist Tom

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Coyle, who worked on over 20,000 crime

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scenes in his 30-year poling career.

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When you're actually at the crime scene,

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uh you you put that professional mode

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on. Uh so you you can't show any

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emotion. Uh that's the worst. If you

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show emotion at that crime scene, uh and

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you start crying, you might as well

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never do it again. It it really is that

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that straight to the fact you start

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crying at that crime scene, your job's

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over.

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>> Viewer discretion is strongly advised.

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We talk about his work during the Crush

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earthquakes, why he hates CSI, and how

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he has learned to live with images that

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never truly leave you. This episode is

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not an easy watch, but it's an important

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one. Thomas Coyle, welcome to my

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podcast. Thank you so much for the

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invite. It's a absolute privilege to be

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here which is really quite strange

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because uh I told some of my friends

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that I'm going to go on a podcast and uh

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they their eyes went up and their

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eyebrows went across and you know they

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said to me, "Oh, it's going to be

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someone in a little tiny dingy room and

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uh they're they're going to be just with

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a little tiny microphone and you're

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going to be talking rubbish for about 15

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20 minutes." I went, "Well, no, it's

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with Dom Harvey." And their eyes just

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lit up and it's just amazing how many

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people actually recognize who you are.

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So, thank you so much. She's a privilege

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to be here.

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>> I'm I'm pleased you're here. And um just

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to clarify, we're going to be talking

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rubbish for 2 hours or so.

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>> Okay. Thank you.

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>> No, it's going to be great. I've um

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you've got a brand new book out uh

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called The Dead Speak.

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>> I have. Yes.

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>> My life and forensics, which I've read

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over the last couple of days. Um

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the first thing I want to know is did

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did you have a ghost writer or did you

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write it all yourself?

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>> It was all myself. All from everything

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that was up there. uh all those scenes I

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went to uh all that visual imagination

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was all up in my brain. I did everything

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myself. I did actually ask the

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publishers cuz I sent him uh a little

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abstract of what I wanted in the uh uh

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what I wanted to get out of it. And I

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said right at the end, I'm hoping you're

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going to give a ghostriter uh to do this

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cuz I've never wrote a book before. In

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fact, I'm very rarely read a book. I'm

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more of a journal person or a magazine

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person. So, it's uh it was very daunting

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for me to even think about writing a

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book. And they said, "No, just give us a

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chapter on something you've done uh as

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something passed in your life." And I

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went, "Okay, I'll give it a go." And I

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started to type and I just couldn't

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stop. And it just kept coming out and

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out and out. And I gave them that

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chapter and they seem to have liked it.

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And that's where we are today.

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>> I I pity the editor.

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>> I reckon the editor probably needed some

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counseling afterwards. It's a It's a

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full-on book. It did go from editor to

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uh to publisher to editor me to say uh

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uh that yeah they were quite not

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overwhelmed but they it was a completely

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different type of book that than they've

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been used to in the past and we did have

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I wouldn't say fun times uh going from

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us to the editor but when it came back

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from the editor first of all it was uh

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really strange uh I felt like I was back

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at school again you know when you get

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your first uh manuscript back and all

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you see is red lines red lines and

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crosses red lines and crosses And I I

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was going, "Oh, no. That's it." You

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know, they're not going to accept the

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book. It's all rubbish. Uh but it was

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apparently it's just part of the

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process.

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>> Now, you've um you've done really well.

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It's it's a great book. I I got through

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it in a couple of days, and I'm a

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notoriously slow reader. Um it's all

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about your life and career. 16 years at

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Met Police in London, 14 years with the

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New Zealand Police, uh 20,000 crime

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scenes, over 200,000 exhibits and

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laboratories. Did Did you find this

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process Yeah, how how did you find it?

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Was it was it cathartic? Did you did you

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open up um you cases inside your mind

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that you thought had been locked away?

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>> Yeah, it was therapeutic. Yeah,

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>> it was actually therapeutic to write

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because when we go to these crime

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scenes, we can't compartmentalize them.

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So, we put them in different places just

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to just to switch it off and uh to

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forget about them. Uh but you know when

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you someone talks to you and they say oh

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you know there's this certain crime

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scene that they've been to and they you

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know and it just comes back again

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>> and it just comes flooding back. So all

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you have to do is just uh start to think

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about that crime scene and it all just

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comes out. It was right really quite

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strange but it was very uh therapeutic

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as well doing that.

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>> I I' I've written some books as well. Um

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but my my the and I know exactly what

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you're talking about. It's like pulling

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a thread and it just keeps coming. It's

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amazing. But the stories that I were

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talking was talking about were like

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silly stories about my childhood. Like

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um the stories that you were talking

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about are quite unpleasant things that

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probably should remain buried for a

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reason.

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>> Uh yeah. Well, I I won't say buried for

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a reason. I think I was trying to be

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honest, but I was trying to give more of

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an insight onto the forensic aspect

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within a crime scene. I didn't want it

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all blood gore and, you know, because

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there's somebody's life we're talking

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about.

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>> Oh, no. I was I was meaning like for

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self-preservation.

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>> Okay. Yeah. I I I see your point. Yeah.

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Uh I I I I'm one of these people that uh

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openly talk about uh my experiences uh

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when I was at you know with work

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colleagues and with other uh police

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officers and I trained as well in the

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past uh quite frequently. Uh so I was

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training officer so all of those kept

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coming out all the time. I wasn't one of

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the kept in like a pressure cooker.

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That's not to say I've not had my

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problems.

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>> Yeah. You know, I I have had my

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problems,

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>> mate. The things that you've seen and

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and done and witnessed. I Yeah. I don't

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know how you can come out the other side

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unscathed. I think it'd be impossible.

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>> But I think that's not not just from the

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crime scenes. I think from my early

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youth as well, you know, some of the

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things I've seen and was in with my

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older youth. I think that, you know,

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I've had that all the way through my

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life. So, it wasn't just for 18 years

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old, I go straight to see murders, uh,

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or something like that. So, I've not

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been introduced into it. It's just that

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I've I've witnessed things uh throughout

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my whole life.

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>> Yeah. We're going to loop back and get

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into that um the childhood and the early

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years. But first of all, um anyone that

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buys this book, uh the dead speak, what

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do you hope they feel when they reach

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the final page?

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a respect for those that go into these

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crime scenes uh and how the police are

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humans, those that work within the

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police, those that scientists, uh that

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we're all human and uh we we're there

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for a reason and that's to to get the

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information from a person or a deceased

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person or a crime scene itself. It

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doesn't have to be the deceased person.

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It could be a crime scene just to get

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information uh from that crime scene.

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Yeah, we we were discussing this in the

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office yesterday uh because I was I was

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reading out um some passages of the

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book. Um some of the staff uh really

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enjoyed it and wanted more. Others

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refused to listen and I said, "Look,

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this is a this is a this is a reality of

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life and it's a really important job and

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it's a necessary job and we're just

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lucky that we're not doing it."

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>> I know that's a it takes a certain

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individual to do that. You you've got

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lots of people that love all the blood

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and gore on the TV and you know you've

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got these games that assert 18 that 14

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year olds are shooting people's heads

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off and all that. So it's norm it seems

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like normality for a lot of individuals

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but get them into a crime scene or

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describe a crime scene in reality.

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>> It's completely different aspect of it.

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You know, it's completely different to

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that two-dimensional uh plastic you see

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on uh you know, on the TV to what you do

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with a three-dimensional where there's a

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deceased person in front of you with

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blood spatter all at the wall.

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>> Yeah, there's actually a joke about the

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the shows that you were talking about

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earlier in the book. Um you call them

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CSI made up and CSI stupid.

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>> Um have have the popularity of those

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sort of shows made your life hell?

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>> Yes. Well, it's when I first joined when

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I first joined uh uh this job, it wasn't

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glamorized. It was like a dirty man's

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position. Uh so it was like the position

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nobody really wanted to do because it

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was that that job that was after the

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event. You're not actually going out

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investigating it with uh you know

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arresting people and you're at the that

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end of the the crime scene looking at

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all the evidence that nobody else wants

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to do. CSI came along. It's glamorized

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it all and people want to now uh feel

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like that, you know, that that they can

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do that. Uh, and they they imagine

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somebody going into that crime scene,

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you know, with with what you see on CSI

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and the the the beautiful person with

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their hair flicked over and they walk

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over to the crime scene and they they

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flick their hair as they they they go

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down to the uh the deceased person. No

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PPA. Look, if they're wearing gloves and

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they pick up a hair, I've just found a

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hair sample. Well, I'm not surprised,

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you've just shedded 20 airs all over the

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place. That's not the reality. For

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goodness sake,

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>> you're just getting terminated with the

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whole crowd.

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>> I can't watch them. I really cannot

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watch them. I actually broke a TV once.

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I threw something at it. It was just

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just really really I got so overwhelmed

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with the the uh the way they portrayed a

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scene examiner on uh on the set that it

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just it just got to me and I can't watch

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them anymore.

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>> Well, it's light entertainment, isn't

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it? I had I had one of New Zealand's

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greatest golfers of all time, Michael

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Campbell. I've had him on the podcast

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and he refuses to watch Happy Gilmore.

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>> Oh, really?

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>> Like he refuses to watch anything to do

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with golf cuz he's like it's just so

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far-fetched.

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>> I can see I can see his point. But that

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Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point

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actually.

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>> Yeah. Okay. Um based on everything you

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know,

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what is the worst way to die?

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>> Alone.

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It's simple as that. I would say be

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being alone

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>> is the worst way to die. the victims of

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uh uh which I've had many of is suicide.

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Uh I think they're the worst ways to

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die. Uh you do get you get the violent

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ones and all of that. That's all of

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that, but I truly believe they're the

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worst ones.

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That was an unexpected answer. Oh,

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sorry.

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No, no, no. I need to apologize. I I

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don't don't know what I was expecting.

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It was it's a fantastic answer and it's

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an honest answer. I appreciate it. when

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when when people ask you in social

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situations about your life and career,

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um what do they generally ask?

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>> Like if you're at a barbecue or

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somewhere,

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>> what's the worst crime scene you've ever

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been to? That's that's the number one

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question. Or how do you put up with it?

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They're the two question. Even when I go

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to schools and you got like 14, 15 year

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olds that we teach forensic science to,

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they always come up to you afterwards

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and we give them a question and answer

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time and the first question I can

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guarantee, what is the worst crime scene

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you've ever been to? and they want me to

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describe it, which I can't, you know,

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they're not uh audio. I wouldn't

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describe it to, you know, to to most

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individuals anyway. Uh even in the book,

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I describe the crime scenes, but I do it

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in a uh so you can imagine a forensic

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science collecting those items. But

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>> uh yeah, they're they're the they're the

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two main questions I get at a barbecue

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or some someone asking me that, what is

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the worst crime scene you done or how do

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you cope with it?

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>> Would you answer it here or no? what the

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>> the worst crimes scene.

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>> Uh

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the I I could, but it's it's I wouldn't

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want to go into detail with it. And that

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that was a child death. Uh that was the

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worst one I ever went to. And the the

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the things that happened to that child

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and then going to the postmortem and

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seeing that child being cut into when

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they should be playing in the

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playground.

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>> What age?

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>> Uh they were I think they were around

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about 5 years old.

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And that gets you. It still gets me now.

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You know, it's it's just you go you go

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to the crime scene, you go, they say,

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you know, this is what's happened to

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this child. This is and you do you feel

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you you've got a family yourself. We're

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all you all the police have got

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families, but you expect to go in there

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with this strong presence and then

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somebody describes exactly what another

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person's done to a child and then they

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say to you the next day, "Oh, we need

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you. We because we've found evidence

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within there. Now we've got to go to the

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postmortm and then you're there with the

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pathologist and the pathologist is doing

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their job uh in an excellent way and we

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cut it in or they're cutting into a

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5-year-old and we gain evidence off

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that. So they're the worst

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>> when that's the worst.

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>> When do you um Yeah. When when do you

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stop being professional and become a

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human? Like do do you do you do you like

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cry at the scene or is it when you get

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home after the end of your shift? Is it

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driving home? No, it's you you when

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you're actually at the crime scene, uh

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you you put that professional mode on.

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Uh so you you can't show any emotion. Uh

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that's the worst. If you show emotion at

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that crime scene, uh and you start

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crying, you might as well never do it

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again. It it really is that that

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straight to the fact you start crying at

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that crime scene, your job's over.

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>> But you're only human.

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>> I know you're only human, but you take

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that you you switch like the switch that

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goes on inside your mind as soon as you

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put that PPE gear on. You're still

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shaking because you know you're going to

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expect something horrible. But as soon

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as you put that PPE gear on and that

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mask goes on and you've got your

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notebook, it's like and there's a switch

00:13:01

that turns over. Now you're in your

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professional mode and you are there for

00:13:04

the victim of that crime. Uh but when

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you leave your heart does go, "Wow, did

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somebody just really do that?" And you

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can I I've sat there and I've sat in my

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car before driving over and I've gone,

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"I need 10 minutes to myself. I can't

00:13:20

drive straight away because I'm I'm

00:13:23

angered with the situation. I'm angry

00:13:25

that one fellow human can do this to

00:13:27

another human. And I just sit there just

00:13:29

for 10 minutes just to to recoup myself.

00:13:32

>> But then I get home and I've got a

00:13:33

family support like no other. You know,

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um I've got a wife that's very

00:13:37

intriguing uh or she she's very

00:13:40

intrigued with crime scenes. So uh she

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>> she married the right guy.

00:13:44

>> She did. So, she sit she she allows me

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to tell her everything that I've been

00:13:49

through throughout that day or week or

00:13:51

how long I've been at the the scene

00:13:52

itself. And uh she will just sit there

00:13:56

and let me get it all out. And I have

00:13:58

sat there a couple of times with tears,

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you know, I've cried

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>> with her just for what I've seen. We're

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all Cuban at the end of the day. You

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know, we we have emotions, but we don't

00:14:07

show them at that crime scene. And I

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haven't put that in the book because I I

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and I think part of that was uh taken

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out for that reason because I think

00:14:17

that's a complete and utter book all on

00:14:19

its own.

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>> Uh you know the the the the for the

00:14:22

things we see and the the the trauma

00:14:24

that stays with us for the rest of our

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lives and like I say I have been I have

00:14:28

been depressed in the past with it.

00:14:32

That's perfectly understandable. How can

00:14:34

how can you not take your work home with

00:14:36

you like from a mental perspective? like

00:14:38

how are you able to just um like you

00:14:40

block that off and not think about it?

00:14:42

>> I Yeah, I you could never ever take your

00:14:45

work home with you. It's like I say,

00:14:46

it's that professional uh block that you

00:14:49

have in your mind.

00:14:52

You can't

00:14:54

you can't go home and take all of that

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weight with you. uh or you do take that

00:14:58

weight with you, but you can't actually

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uh

00:15:02

take the the emotion from that crime

00:15:04

scene uh and bring it to to the house as

00:15:08

well, unless you like I've just uh said

00:15:10

about talking to to your to to Ali

00:15:13

myself. Yeah.

00:15:13

>> Yeah. But is that something you learned

00:15:15

over time? Like I'm just thinking if if

00:15:17

as a civilian like if I if I happen to

00:15:19

see like a dead a dead child, I don't

00:15:21

think it's something I could ever

00:15:22

forget.

00:15:22

>> Yeah, it is. It it's over time you build

00:15:24

resilience. Uh so it's all about

00:15:26

building resilience over time. So the

00:15:27

first few times I went uh it does hit

00:15:30

you quite emotionally but you start

00:15:32

getting uh that that emotional

00:15:34

detachment from it uh but it doesn't it

00:15:39

to say it doesn't still affect you is is

00:15:41

untrue and I I don't think any scene

00:15:43

examiner or scientist out there that has

00:15:45

ever been to scenes themselves can ever

00:15:48

say that they're detached fully

00:15:49

>> and they can go straight out and have a

00:15:51

jolly good drink afterwards.

00:15:54

Now, we're recording this at the end of

00:15:56

January 2026. Um, and there's been uh a

00:16:00

terrible tragedy recently in Mount

00:16:01

Monganoi with um the landslide. And

00:16:03

you've probably got some former

00:16:04

colleagues, I don't know, that are

00:16:06

potentially working there this week.

00:16:08

What are they likely to be experiencing?

00:16:11

>> Uh first and foremost, nervousness.

00:16:14

Obviously, this is somebody's loved ones

00:16:16

they're dealing with. uh they have to be

00:16:18

patient as well because they're they're

00:16:20

waiting uh unfortunately for the

00:16:22

deceased to be recovered. So it's that

00:16:25

anxiety the anxiety of uh waiting uh for

00:16:29

uh the the the victim uh to be brought

00:16:32

to the uh morttery uh which I believe is

00:16:36

Hamilton uh where they're going to be

00:16:38

taken uh and then go through that

00:16:40

process. So there's a that set process

00:16:41

that they will go through uh but they

00:16:44

will be treated with such humanity. So

00:16:46

it's it's they're treated like a family

00:16:48

member uh when they the the the deceased

00:16:50

comes through. But it takes time and

00:16:52

people have to realize it takes time and

00:16:55

and it takes a great deal of effort to

00:16:57

get that information from them. Uh so

00:16:59

nothing's a you know nothing's a quick

00:17:02

easy uh way of trying to retrieve that

00:17:05

information. But they they will be

00:17:07

showing anxiety at the moment waiting.

00:17:09

It's a waiting game for them. And we all

00:17:11

hate waiting. No matter what crime um

00:17:13

sorry, no matter what disaster I've been

00:17:15

to, it's always been a waiting game to

00:17:17

wait for uh something to come so that

00:17:20

you can get into that mode of working.

00:17:23

>> You you said something before. You said

00:17:25

it'll take a bit of time to get the

00:17:26

information from them. The from them

00:17:28

you're you're talking about the victims.

00:17:30

>> The victims themselves.

00:17:31

>> What what do you mean exactly? Well, we

00:17:33

have to when we're looking at the

00:17:34

victims from disaster sites, uh we have

00:17:37

to go through a process of uh taking uh

00:17:41

uh taking

00:17:43

uh what's the word? Uh

00:17:48

taking evidence from that victim. So,

00:17:50

we're looking at odontology, which the

00:17:53

the last uh uh person that was

00:17:55

repatriated to their family or the first

00:17:57

person that repatriated their family, it

00:17:59

was odontology that was the primary

00:18:01

identifier. What's that?

00:18:02

>> Oh, do teeth. So, it was the formation

00:18:05

uh the uh the the way that the teeth are

00:18:07

set in there. So, what they do is uh

00:18:10

they'll take an X-ray of the teeth of

00:18:12

the deceased person and they'll have an

00:18:13

X-ray from uh from where they've been to

00:18:15

the dentist because when we all go to

00:18:17

the dentist, we have our X-rays taken.

00:18:19

And so, they'll look at the

00:18:20

individuality of the formation of the

00:18:22

teeth to make sure that it matches from

00:18:24

the X-ray from the uh from the dentist

00:18:26

to uh the deceased person. So, that's uh

00:18:29

one way. It was the the person that was

00:18:32

uh sorry I forgot the person's name but

00:18:34

the person that was actually repatriated

00:18:35

to the family the first one of those six

00:18:37

uh victims that was I do believe through

00:18:40

odontology and then the secondary was

00:18:42

primary uh secondary identification so

00:18:44

the clothing the height the the the

00:18:46

features of the person but then there's

00:18:48

other formats as well so we're looking

00:18:50

at uh uh DNA uh from the person we're

00:18:54

looking at fingerprints so that we can

00:18:55

look at the antibotum from personal

00:18:57

items that they may have touched uh

00:18:59

We're looking at uh uh the even

00:19:02

something if they've been to a hospital

00:19:03

and they've got like a pacemaker or an

00:19:06

implant that's been placed there because

00:19:07

they've got unique serial numbers. So

00:19:09

there'll be a postmortem to look at that

00:19:11

effect as well and how they actually uh

00:19:13

how they died as well.

00:19:15

>> Yeah. I ask you that because you've been

00:19:17

involved in a a couple of um big events

00:19:19

that we'll get into in the 2005

00:19:23

Indonesia tsunami

00:19:24

>> 2004.

00:19:24

>> Oh 2004 big boxing day 2004. Yeah. Over

00:19:27

into 2005. Yes.

00:19:29

>> And um the Christ Church earthquakes of

00:19:32

uh 2011.

00:19:33

>> 2011. Yes.

00:19:34

>> Um

00:19:36

so when you were dealing with a victim

00:19:38

of a like ah I was going to say a

00:19:40

tragedy, you know, natural disaster, but

00:19:42

I suppose any crime as well. So do you

00:19:45

do you know their their name or do you

00:19:46

know anything about them or

00:19:48

>> we don't know anything about them?

00:19:49

That's the the whole point of disaster

00:19:51

victim identification. We have no prior

00:19:53

knowledge of who those people are. So

00:19:55

they're given unique reference numbers

00:19:56

and you that reference number stays with

00:19:58

them all the way through. So the

00:20:00

antimortm has the person's name because

00:20:02

that's the individual we're trying to

00:20:04

recover the evidence from from their

00:20:05

home or workplace. But the postmortem,

00:20:08

so the pink forms uh is has all the

00:20:11

information from the deceased person,

00:20:12

but we don't know who that deceased

00:20:14

person is. So we're trying to get in

00:20:17

enough or as much information from that

00:20:19

person themselves. So first of all,

00:20:21

we'll look at their clothing. So, we'll

00:20:23

take their clothing off. Sometimes

00:20:25

they'll have a name placed at the back

00:20:27

of their tag. Uh the the jewelry, some

00:20:30

jewelry could be unique. So, a wedding

00:20:32

ring could have the name of the

00:20:33

individual who they've married inside

00:20:35

with love. But we can't rely on that as

00:20:37

formal identification because people

00:20:39

swap clothes. You know, people hold

00:20:41

somebody's wallet. You know, my wife's

00:20:42

always holding my wallet. Uh so, you

00:20:45

can't have that as primary

00:20:46

identification. There's got to be

00:20:47

secondary identification, but it's a

00:20:49

great indicator of the who that person

00:20:50

is

00:20:51

>> uh before they go into the uh the uh the

00:20:54

the the next stage of those process of

00:20:58

uh postmortm uh processes to get the

00:21:01

other information which I said the

00:21:02

odontology DNA path postmortm and uh uh

00:21:06

fingerprints.

00:21:11

>> We just need to move your mic a little

00:21:12

bit closer to you. Jeez, we're 20

00:21:14

minutes in. This is going to be this is

00:21:15

going to be a great chat. I'm so It's

00:21:17

already really good.

00:21:18

>> Oh, okay. Cool. Okay.

00:21:19

>> How are you? How are you feeling? How do

00:21:20

you feel?

00:21:20

>> I'm I'm feeling a lot uh more relaxed

00:21:23

now. Yeah.

00:21:24

>> Okay. Cuz I I I you know, we I've had a

00:21:27

couple of interviews and they seem to to

00:21:30

go off onto a tangent and trying to lead

00:21:32

me down to a god a garden path that I

00:21:34

don't really want to go down to. But you

00:21:36

you I must admit you're a lot more

00:21:37

relaxed than Thank you for

00:21:38

>> Oh, thank you. Oh, there's there's no

00:21:40

agenda here at all. Um, so these these

00:21:42

are just questions from a place of

00:21:43

natural curiosity and uh yeah, I just

00:21:45

want your your answers as a uh

00:21:48

>> an experienced forensics guy.

00:21:51

>> So let's Okay, let's go to your

00:21:54

background first of all. So what what's

00:21:55

your earliest memory?

00:21:56

>> Earliest memory at a crime scene or

00:21:58

earliest memory of being in trouble.

00:22:02

>> So So you're from um a council estate in

00:22:04

the UK?

00:22:05

>> I'm from a really rough counselor state

00:22:06

in the UK. you know, lots it's one of

00:22:09

those council states where very few

00:22:10

people ever get out. They get uh they

00:22:13

get into that situation where they feel

00:22:15

that the their their life's not worth

00:22:17

that great deal. Uh undereducated and

00:22:22

they they feel this is where their life

00:22:23

is. And a lot of people are there's many

00:22:25

many people I know that have never left,

00:22:27

never even gone out of Leicester. My

00:22:30

mom's only ever been to Skesh, never

00:22:32

been abroad. Uh so I I get into that rut

00:22:36

of well this is where I'm going to be.

00:22:39

>> Uh but yeah my earliest educ my earliest

00:22:44

one is school you know being bullied at

00:22:46

school. Uh and to to overcome being

00:22:49

bullied at school I became a comic a

00:22:53

comedian. I made people laugh especially

00:22:56

the bullies that were bullying me. So

00:22:57

the big hard chaps that went around

00:23:00

bullying people, I used to make them

00:23:02

laugh and uh they seem to enjoy it and

00:23:04

they protected me and that's how I got

00:23:06

through my childhood part of life is

00:23:10

just by making people laugh.

00:23:12

>> I think that's very relatable. I think

00:23:13

there's a lot of people that are

00:23:14

probably listening to this or watching

00:23:15

this that have done that themselves. You

00:23:17

used, you know, humor as a defense

00:23:19

mechanism.

00:23:19

>> It is. It's a massive defense mechanism

00:23:21

and it's and it helped me. It helped me

00:23:23

out so much. Uh I could have I could

00:23:25

have gone two ways. is I could have just

00:23:26

hid in a corner and been an isolated

00:23:28

victim or I could have just gone out

00:23:30

there and uh you know uh cuz I heard I

00:23:33

you know it was just it was just one of

00:23:35

those things I didn't hear about sorry

00:23:38

where am I going with that go back a

00:23:40

step it was just that I I tripped over

00:23:43

it once in front of somebody as I was

00:23:46

going away and I banged banged myself on

00:23:48

the side and they started laughing and I

00:23:51

thought oh okay that's that's stopped me

00:23:52

being beaten up and I carried on with

00:23:55

that and It just progressed from there

00:23:56

and that's that's the way I lived.

00:23:58

>> And um 1979, how old were you how old

00:24:02

were you in 1979?

00:24:03

>> I think I was 11 years old. That must

00:24:05

have been. Yeah.

00:24:05

>> Yeah. Okay. Christmas Eve 1979. You talk

00:24:08

about this in the book. Um why is that a

00:24:10

pivotal pivotal moment in your life?

00:24:12

>> I think are we talking about uh the

00:24:14

beating of my mother?

00:24:15

>> Yeah. Domestic violence.

00:24:16

>> Domestic violence which was quite common

00:24:18

in my uh household. Uh

00:24:22

>> your stepdad, right?

00:24:22

>> My stepdad. Yes. Uh, so my my uh my dad

00:24:25

left when I was uh really young. I never

00:24:28

knew who he was, but then I found out

00:24:29

later when I was uh 17, 18 that he was

00:24:33

he was a drunk as well and he went off

00:24:35

and uh I've never ever actually seen

00:24:37

him. And then my stepdad came in when I

00:24:39

was younger. Uh he liked the whiskey. He

00:24:42

was a Jordy lad. Uh and uh when he liked

00:24:45

a whiskey, you got on the wrong side of

00:24:47

him. Uh it was just the the back of his

00:24:50

hand. And uh he got more and more brutal

00:24:52

as he went along. Uh and he just didn't

00:24:55

do it just to to to my mom. He had done

00:24:57

it to us as well. Uh he my he resented

00:25:01

myself and my sister because we weren't

00:25:03

his kids. Uh he had two kids of himself

00:25:06

with my mom. So they're my you know my

00:25:08

other brother and sister. And he

00:25:10

resented who myself and my daughter uh

00:25:12

my daughter my my uh my sister and uh

00:25:16

yeah he was forever you know giving me a

00:25:18

a good smack. But that that and my mom

00:25:22

was always getting the brunt of it. She

00:25:23

she used to always step in and then he

00:25:26

just didn't like that and he used to

00:25:27

just clobber her. But that that evening

00:25:29

this it was Christmas Eve. We were all

00:25:32

excited to see our Christmas present. It

00:25:33

was a nice relaxed evening.

00:25:35

>> Uh my dad was in the stepdad was in the

00:25:37

kitchen. He was playing his guitar,

00:25:39

drinking his uh whiskey. We thought it

00:25:41

was going to be a great evening. My mom

00:25:43

said something wrong. He just snapped.

00:25:45

And my god, that's me. Did he punch the

00:25:48

living [ __ ] out of her in front of us?

00:25:50

We were trying to stop him and he was

00:25:52

smacking us out the way. And all we

00:25:54

could do uh cuz I was a real little

00:25:56

skinny [ __ ] I was nothing. And I

00:25:58

couldn't I couldn't I couldn't hold

00:25:59

back. He was a big chap. And uh you

00:26:02

know, he just smacked us out the way and

00:26:04

uh pushed the living [ __ ] out of her.

00:26:06

And I had to see that. I had to watch

00:26:08

him do that for a good 10 minutes

00:26:12

until he knew that she was unconscious

00:26:14

on the floor and then he he he left and

00:26:17

I never saw him after that.

00:26:20

>> Tom, that's so [ __ ] sad.

00:26:21

>> It is.

00:26:22

>> I feel How do you feel when you reflect

00:26:24

on that little boy?

00:26:25

>> It actually makes me tear up now just

00:26:27

thinking about it.

00:26:28

>> Yeah, I'm just thinking like you weren't

00:26:29

you weren't really safe at school. You

00:26:31

like you made it work to the best of

00:26:33

your ability. You weren't safe at home

00:26:35

either.

00:26:36

>> [ __ ] It was a it was a tough time.

00:26:38

Tough times. And you know, my mom was in

00:26:40

hospital for seven days. And she'd kept

00:26:43

the secret away from her family. She had

00:26:44

a big family. You know, we should we're

00:26:45

talking

00:26:46

>> How do you hide between Christmas and

00:26:47

New Year's?

00:26:48

>> I Well, she didn't. The family found out

00:26:50

that cuz they had to take us in.

00:26:52

>> Yeah.

00:26:52

>> And her brothers found out and they

00:26:54

never knew that she'd been a part of

00:26:55

domestic violence cuz she hid it so

00:26:57

well. She had the black eyes. Well, uh

00:26:58

we never could tell uh anybody uh

00:27:01

because, you know, my mom was keeping

00:27:03

this secret. And uh you know we loved

00:27:05

our mom uh very much. So we we just

00:27:07

wanted to protect protect her and so her

00:27:11

brothers found out and that's why he

00:27:13

never came back because the her brothers

00:27:15

would have killed him. I I truly believe

00:27:18

they would have killed him.

00:27:21

>> I mean if your mom stayed with him

00:27:23

eventually like she would have things

00:27:25

tend to escalate. Right. I I again

00:27:28

that's always at the back of my mind and

00:27:30

I think she the next punch uh would have

00:27:33

been the fatal one. I don't think there

00:27:35

would have been another one after this

00:27:36

the after sorry the next one after this

00:27:38

because he got that violent on this one

00:27:40

if my mom would have uh you know let him

00:27:42

come back into our lives again or the

00:27:44

brothers weren't after him cuz my mom

00:27:46

would I don't know why but I think she

00:27:47

would have had him back

00:27:48

>> and uh it would have done it again maybe

00:27:51

not in you know it' have been all fine

00:27:52

for 2 3 months everyone's happy we're

00:27:54

all lovely and everyone's hugging and

00:27:56

then suddenly something will snap again

00:27:58

and uh I think the next blow would have

00:27:59

killed her.

00:28:00

>> How's your mom now?

00:28:02

>> She's fine. She's uh she's

00:28:05

uh she's she got with somebody else

00:28:07

afterwards. His name was Sirill a few

00:28:10

years later. Wonderless man ever.

00:28:12

Complete the opposite. And you know he

00:28:14

was the he would just treated her like a

00:28:16

queen. And so for that and he he was

00:28:19

only uh with her for I think it was

00:28:21

about it was about 12 years but then he

00:28:23

ended up with serious Parkinson or

00:28:25

Parkinson's disease and we watched him

00:28:28

wither away to nothing. Uh and you know

00:28:31

that was my mom's life in front of her

00:28:34

that she this bloke could change changed

00:28:36

her concept of uh husbands cuz the first

00:28:41

cuz the first husband was a you know a

00:28:43

real [ __ ] second husband was a bigger

00:28:45

[ __ ] and then this this bloke comes

00:28:47

along midway through her life when she's

00:28:48

in her 40s early 40s 50s and treats her

00:28:52

like a queen and she's taken 4550 years

00:28:55

to get to that point of someone treating

00:28:58

her with respect and uh you know and

00:29:00

then somebody takes him away. So where's

00:29:03

the irony of that? You know where's life

00:29:04

when you know somebody's been with you

00:29:07

for you know 50 years of [ __ ] life and

00:29:10

then someone comes along and loves you

00:29:12

so much and then somebody takes them

00:29:14

away through really [ __ ] illness.

00:29:18

>> She must be so proud of you. Like her

00:29:20

boy did good.

00:29:21

>> Yeah, she's really really proud. It's uh

00:29:23

she's got like a what do we call them

00:29:26

where you've got a a place on the the

00:29:29

got like a shrine.

00:29:30

>> Right. That's the word. She's got like a

00:29:32

shrine. It's really weird. And I'm

00:29:34

expecting when I go when I say cuz every

00:29:36

time I talk to her on the phone, we do

00:29:37

we do quite a few Zoom meetings. Every

00:29:39

time she cuz she's uh uh she's starting

00:29:42

to get dementia slightly. So we she says

00:29:45

the same thing over and over again, but

00:29:47

every single time I can guarantee she'll

00:29:49

turn that camera around and there is in

00:29:51

front of her the the shrine of uh you

00:29:54

know the things I've done in the past.

00:29:55

I've sent her a little medal and uh you

00:29:58

know some of the little medals I've got

00:29:59

and uh she puts them on there and she

00:30:02

just sits there and enjoys looking at

00:30:04

them. Not just of me obviously there

00:30:06

obviously other family members up there.

00:30:08

>> No, but um you got a royal title in the

00:30:11

the king's birthday honors list. You got

00:30:13

a um order of merit thing.

00:30:15

>> I did. Yes.

00:30:15

>> Um so I'm thinking like being from like

00:30:18

a a council flat in the UK very close to

00:30:20

the royal family. Like that must have

00:30:22

been super meaningful to your mom. It

00:30:24

was brilliant. She I I think she must

00:30:27

have told everyone about it, even people

00:30:29

she didn't know. She was just going out

00:30:31

in the street and telling people, you

00:30:33

know, my son and she, you know, this

00:30:35

little old woman on a Zoom frame, she

00:30:36

going, you know, my son is got appointed

00:30:39

by the king of England

00:30:42

and she was just telling everyone for

00:30:43

weeks.

00:30:44

>> Oh, that's wonderful. Um yeah that um

00:30:48

being in that sort of environment um

00:30:49

surrounded by domestic violence. What

00:30:51

what impact did that have on you as a

00:30:52

boy and now a man

00:30:56

to me uh you know you know how you hear

00:31:00

stories sometimes if you got people that

00:31:02

go grow up in that child of they're

00:31:03

being abused or they're being uh uh you

00:31:06

know they've seen abuse themselves and

00:31:08

they say that that carries on and they

00:31:10

do that to you know that that's what why

00:31:11

they carry on and do that. Well, there's

00:31:13

Yeah, there's a massive ad campaign here

00:31:14

in New Zealand called Break the Cycle.

00:31:16

All about that.

00:31:17

>> Yeah. Well, I went completely opposite.

00:31:19

I've got utter and utter respect. That's

00:31:21

why I'm still with my wife after 40

00:31:23

years. You know, I have utter respect

00:31:26

for the the uh for other people. Uh I

00:31:29

went down completely the different road

00:31:32

uh on that which uh was a refreshing

00:31:35

change uh to see uh you know going down

00:31:39

a completely different you. I could have

00:31:40

easily have just put my hands up and

00:31:42

just said, "Yeah, well, this is what

00:31:43

I've been used to for the last 18 years.

00:31:45

This is what must life be." Uh, but

00:31:48

there was that incident that I'm presume

00:31:50

we'll talk about where, you know,

00:31:52

something changed my life and I needed

00:31:54

to to get out of this cycle uh to to

00:31:56

move on.

00:31:57

>> Well, let's talk about that. Yeah. Who

00:31:59

who was Paul Webster?

00:32:00

>> So, Paul Webster was my a really good

00:32:02

friend of mine. We'd been together for

00:32:05

not together, so it's a strange way to

00:32:06

say it.

00:32:08

>> Yeah. We'd been mates since uh We lived

00:32:10

on the same street. So, we'd been mates

00:32:12

since we were 2 years old. Um, that we I

00:32:14

I had a position at Don Millers, which

00:32:17

was a bakery in the center of Leicester.

00:32:20

And I was there uh one Friday night uh

00:32:24

which we was baking uh bread Friday or

00:32:26

Saturday. I think it was a Friday night.

00:32:28

We had to work evenings Friday and

00:32:29

Saturday evening. And there was a

00:32:31

commotion out at the clock tower, which

00:32:32

is a big iconic uh clock in the middle

00:32:36

of town center. police cars going off in

00:32:39

the lights and sirens and we wondered

00:32:40

what was going on. So went outside and

00:32:43

there was a big crowd drawn around this

00:32:46

person on the floor and the police

00:32:48

running all over the place and there was

00:32:49

another police officer who was an

00:32:51

inspector who was lying on the floor

00:32:52

further down the road uh who'd been

00:32:54

stabbed and walk over there and there's

00:32:57

this individual on the floor uh that'

00:33:01

been stabbed once in the heart in the

00:33:02

back and died there and then and then I

00:33:06

only realized the next day not even it

00:33:09

was that it was just then I realized

00:33:11

that it was my best friend

00:33:13

>> that just died

00:33:15

and I was I was mortified

00:33:18

that a life could be snapped away for

00:33:21

something so stupid. You know, he had no

00:33:25

knowing that this was going to happen.

00:33:26

He was with a crowd of friends and the

00:33:28

person with a knife just came up

00:33:30

straight behind them in this group and

00:33:31

he was just in the wrong place at the

00:33:33

wrong time. M

00:33:34

>> went down, died quite very quickly cuz

00:33:37

it went straight into the heart. And it

00:33:39

was just it was at that point I thought

00:33:41

I can't be doing this. I need I I I

00:33:44

don't want to be here. I want to do

00:33:47

something different.

00:33:48

>> And that

00:33:50

what did that teach you about grief? I

00:33:52

suppose that's your at how old were you?

00:33:54

16.

00:33:54

>> I was 18 at the time.

00:33:56

>> I suppose this is the first um the first

00:33:58

encounter with sort of death of someone

00:33:59

that you love that happened.

00:34:01

>> Yes. And it hit me like a ton of bricks.

00:34:03

I was uh very emotional for days, maybe

00:34:06

even weeks. I just didn't realize that

00:34:08

somebody could be snatched away so

00:34:10

young. Uh and witnessing it as well,

00:34:14

which is even the worst part about it.

00:34:16

>> And yet it affected me a lot. Uh and I

00:34:20

became

00:34:21

I wouldn't say disillusioned with life.

00:34:23

I just became disillusioned with people

00:34:25

>> and I just became insect with myself. I

00:34:28

didn't want to know anything. I really

00:34:30

didn't want to know. I think that was my

00:34:33

first ever encounter with depression.

00:34:38

>> I think it must have been.

00:34:40

>> Yeah. I suppose you wouldn't have had a

00:34:41

label for it then. No, you look back.

00:34:42

>> I just felt down. I just felt well what

00:34:45

what what am I supposed to do? And I

00:34:47

just felt like there was this storm

00:34:48

cloud over my head and shoulders uh that

00:34:51

I just couldn't get rid of. And every

00:34:53

day was a rainy day. Even though it was

00:34:55

it could have been nice outside, it it

00:34:57

just became such a uh ter came such an

00:35:01

upheaval trying to get out of bed,

00:35:03

trying to get to work.

00:35:05

>> Uh and even talking to people, I just

00:35:07

just felt like I just didn't want to be

00:35:09

with anyone. Just wanted to be on my own

00:35:11

alone and just think of the good times

00:35:13

that me and my friend had.

00:35:15

>> How often do you think about where you

00:35:16

be now?

00:35:16

>> All the time.

00:35:17

>> Do you? He's got a great uh I wouldn't

00:35:20

say it's a weird thing to say but

00:35:22

following but every single year uh all

00:35:24

his family and uh friends all say you

00:35:26

know happy birthday Paul uh on his

00:35:28

birthday and we all say you know you

00:35:30

know happy birthday to him uh via social

00:35:33

media uh so it's always constantly there

00:35:35

but even when I go to you know crime

00:35:37

scenes sometimes it's there you go whoa

00:35:40

okay this could have been Paul I'm here

00:35:43

now and I'm trying to solve this for the

00:35:46

families uh uh which is what I've always

00:35:49

wanted to do since that event.

00:35:52

>> Um that's so cool that you keep his

00:35:54

memory alive even now. Always.

00:35:57

>> I'm probably projecting here, but it'd

00:35:58

be like my worst fear if I was dying to

00:36:00

be forgotten.

00:36:00

>> Yeah, that's why I put him in the book

00:36:03

right at the beginning. uh you know that

00:36:04

I wanted to the book to be dedicated to

00:36:07

himself and Joe which was my uh

00:36:10

>> nephew that uh you know sadly passed

00:36:12

away as well which was a really

00:36:14

unfortunate circumstance at few years

00:36:17

ago.

00:36:18

>> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. We we'll

00:36:19

get into that later as well.

00:36:20

>> Yeah.

00:36:21

>> So yeah after we uh died that's when you

00:36:23

decided to make um a massive career

00:36:25

pivot and um you became a cop. Can you

00:36:27

can you remember?

00:36:28

>> I didn't first. The navy. The navy. I

00:36:31

was I went into I I thought I wanted to

00:36:33

be I wanted to be a cop. I always want I

00:36:36

felt afterwards that Yeah. I wanted to

00:36:38

do uh the police work. But being a

00:36:40

skinny little runt, there was no way I

00:36:43

was going to do it. And plus they wanted

00:36:44

mature people then. They didn't want

00:36:45

anyone that was 18, 19. They wanted, you

00:36:47

know, people in their 20s, 30s that uh

00:36:50

had respectable academic career uh paths

00:36:52

behind them. Uh so I decided to go on

00:36:55

the Navy go into the Navy part the Navy

00:36:57

recruitment and I went down there just

00:36:59

to be a naval sea uh seaman and

00:37:03

completed all the tests and the exams

00:37:04

and they called me up and said oh we

00:37:06

you're actually really good uh we could

00:37:08

have you as a naval officer and that's

00:37:10

when I went for the medical and the

00:37:11

medical again said that you're

00:37:13

underweight

00:37:15

and I decided okay well I'll put on

00:37:17

weight and go go in 6 months and then it

00:37:20

changed again there was that uh position

00:37:22

that came up at New Scotland Yard.

00:37:24

>> Yeah. Can you remember your first day

00:37:26

there at Scotland Yard?

00:37:27

>> It was so daunting,

00:37:29

>> intimidating.

00:37:29

>> It was really intimidating. It was a It

00:37:31

was the late '8s. It was a very big

00:37:34

man's club uh building. You know, it was

00:37:37

a one of these where

00:37:39

>> the hierarchy was very very well

00:37:42

respected. Your peers were very well

00:37:43

well respected. You if they were walking

00:37:45

down the corridor, you stepped onto the

00:37:47

side. You let them walk past. You always

00:37:49

saluted people. Uh complete different

00:37:52

nowadays. Obviously, you wouldn't never

00:37:54

do that. You know, there's respect on

00:37:56

both sides. Uh but then there was only a

00:37:58

oneway uh respect and that was their

00:38:00

way.

00:38:02

>> That's um sort of around this part of

00:38:04

the book where you talk about someone

00:38:07

that lost their life after falling 18

00:38:09

floors.

00:38:09

>> Yeah.

00:38:10

>> Um you had to investigate whether it was

00:38:12

um like an accident or they were pushed.

00:38:15

Um

00:38:16

>> but there's some graphic detail in here

00:38:18

including missing limbs. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:19

>> Is that just as a result of the falling

00:38:21

from that height?

00:38:22

>> So they No, it wasn't just the falling

00:38:24

of the height. They they went through

00:38:26

the So there was a walkway going into

00:38:28

the building. So the back stairwell

00:38:30

>> and in that stairwell there was a a a

00:38:32

conservatory roof. So there was glass

00:38:35

roof and skylight and the skylight had

00:38:37

metal struts that kept the glass

00:38:39

together.

00:38:40

>> So the person came down the 18th 18

00:38:43

floors went through the glass and they

00:38:46

the metal struts were like a guillotine.

00:38:48

And so the guillotined the legs that

00:38:51

went one way, torso went the other and

00:38:54

if you want to know the head went

00:38:56

completely somewhere else which we had

00:38:57

to try and find.

00:38:58

>> Yeah, there was a a decapitation as well

00:39:00

which is the I I'm pretty sure this is

00:39:02

the first time I've ever read this in a

00:39:03

book. So you're how old at the time?

00:39:05

This is fairly early in your pleasing.

00:39:06

>> This was very early. So I would have

00:39:08

been uh I would have been about 24 then.

00:39:11

>> [ __ ] She must have been wishing you

00:39:13

were in the Navy at that point.

00:39:14

>> I wasn't. It was it was even worse when

00:39:17

uh the when I actually went to the body

00:39:19

and uh uh removed the coat and there was

00:39:23

no head.

00:39:24

>> That was the point where I went oh cuz I

00:39:26

wasn't expecting that. That made me jump

00:39:28

for 24 year old jumping at the time when

00:39:31

you you're pulling back somebody's coat

00:39:32

and you go there's no head. Where is it?

00:39:36

And that's that's where we had a look

00:39:37

outside and it was in the uh alleyway.

00:39:40

>> What distance? How far from the body was

00:39:42

the head? It was about 25 maybe 30 m

00:39:44

away.

00:39:45

>> Oh my god.

00:39:46

>> It bouncing and rolling. It actually uh

00:39:49

it it it hit the because it

00:39:50

guillotineed, but the the glass broke,

00:39:53

but for some unknown reason, there must

00:39:54

have been slight part of the uh the neck

00:39:57

skin must have kept on slightly and it

00:39:59

rebounded backwards and then came away

00:40:01

from the torso cuz that went through and

00:40:03

it went onto a car bonnet outside and

00:40:06

then from that car bonnet it rolled down

00:40:08

and it went into a curb and that's where

00:40:10

it was for about an hour and a half.

00:40:13

And then the the the coroner has to come

00:40:16

and um confirm that there's been a

00:40:19

>> it was the GP that came out. The GP

00:40:21

needs to come out in them days anyway to

00:40:24

confirm ident paramedics do it nowadays

00:40:26

cuz they're highly trained to do that.

00:40:28

But in those days it was a the GP that

00:40:30

used to come out and I'll always always

00:40:33

remember it as if it was yesterday. I'm

00:40:35

standing there, the investigating team

00:40:37

standing there. There was three of us

00:40:38

standing there. The GP's running over

00:40:40

because he's late anyway. And he bends

00:40:42

down. We pulled the red because we'd put

00:40:44

a red uh flannel over by then or

00:40:46

something from the parame. It was of

00:40:49

like a red cotton uh cover. He pulled it

00:40:52

back, knelt down, hand two fingers on

00:40:56

the neck.

00:40:58

Watch.

00:41:00

And he was like that for about 15

00:41:02

seconds. Come off and says, "I can

00:41:04

confirm the person is dead."

00:41:07

And I just went, "No [ __ ] [ __ ]

00:41:09

Sherlock.

00:41:11

This is this is this is a head on its

00:41:14

own. Where the [ __ ] the rest of the

00:41:15

body, you know, but he couldn't get

00:41:17

paid. He wasn't he wasn't to get paid is

00:41:20

£50 until he'd actually confirmed and

00:41:23

done the whole procedure. Even as

00:41:24

someone like me that hasn't done a first

00:41:26

aid call has told you the person was

00:41:28

dead,

00:41:28

>> which is really it's good because we we

00:41:30

laugh about it, but it's it's just one

00:41:32

of those things that, you know, uh

00:41:34

sometimes these these type of scenes can

00:41:36

bring laughter even though it's not,

00:41:39

>> you know, we're not really supposed to

00:41:40

laugh about it, but we do. We we have to

00:41:42

to keep ourselves sane.

00:41:45

>> So So this this the victim here, it's a

00:41:47

complete stranger to you. Do you do you

00:41:49

in the the days or weeks afterwards find

00:41:51

any more information about them? you

00:41:52

learn anything more about them or does

00:41:54

it just pay you not to?

00:41:55

>> It pays me not to.

00:41:56

>> Uh I don't want to know their personal

00:41:59

life. I'm there for to try and give them

00:42:02

uh their family and themselves answers,

00:42:04

but I don't want to get emotionally

00:42:06

involved. So I don't want to start

00:42:07

knowing about their background. We do

00:42:08

hear about the background sometimes. So

00:42:10

we'll we'll hear about where they've

00:42:11

come from or what's actually happened. I

00:42:14

I most of the time I' I'd like to know

00:42:16

what's happened pre uh the examination

00:42:20

just to see if the things that I've

00:42:22

actually picked up and preserved and uh

00:42:25

developed and preserved has been part of

00:42:28

that uh you know the the way that the

00:42:30

person died but I don't want to know

00:42:32

anything before then

00:42:33

>> and the reason for that as well is

00:42:34

because we go to court in the future

00:42:36

>> and I don't want to be biased. I don't

00:42:38

want to be emotionally biased knowing

00:42:40

that I know all about this previous

00:42:42

person's life and I've had a [ __ ] life

00:42:44

and now I'm going to give evidence in

00:42:45

that court and I'm going to try and push

00:42:46

that evidence as much as I can to the

00:42:48

suspect. Forensic science shouldn't be

00:42:50

like that. Forensic science should

00:42:52

always be unbiased. You should be going

00:42:54

there to the court only, not for the

00:42:56

victim and not for the suspect.

00:43:00

If if the victim in that scenario was um

00:43:02

a friend of mine or a brother or someone

00:43:04

that I cared about, I I mean it's a very

00:43:07

violent death. Yeah. And it's it's very

00:43:09

graphic and it's not a even without

00:43:11

seeing it, just hearing it, it's not

00:43:12

something I'd ever be able to get out of

00:43:13

my mind, I don't think. As a as a 24y

00:43:16

old, like how do you Yeah. Did you lean

00:43:19

into alcohol or anything as a coping

00:43:21

mechanism at that age? What did you

00:43:22

>> Everyone at New Scotland Yard lent into

00:43:24

alcohol then. We we was virtually all on

00:43:26

the verge of being alcoholics. It was uh

00:43:29

it was one of those it was one of those

00:43:32

times in one of those eras where we went

00:43:34

to we played uh we worked hard play

00:43:36

hard. So all of us uh once we'd been

00:43:39

done a day's uh work the first place we

00:43:42

went to without any doubt at all

00:43:44

especially at the the Thursday Friday or

00:43:47

well any day of the week really. I'm I'm

00:43:49

just saying that to make myself not feel

00:43:50

really bad. But any day of the week, if

00:43:52

we'd been to a major crime scene, the

00:43:54

first place we went to was the pub and

00:43:56

we got pissed. But I'm young. I was

00:43:58

young there. So I could wake up at 6:00

00:44:00

in the morning and I'd be bright as a,

00:44:02

you know, bright

00:44:03

>> bright and ready to go. If I did that

00:44:05

now, it would be no good at all. But

00:44:07

>> yeah, also um like

00:44:10

yeah, we all know now that that's not

00:44:12

the right way to cope with these things,

00:44:13

but it was how it was at the time. I

00:44:14

suppose back then there were no such

00:44:16

thing as you know psychologists or

00:44:18

therapists and even if you did say that

00:44:21

you needed help, you'd probably be

00:44:22

called a [ __ ]

00:44:22

>> Yes, you was all the time. You know,

00:44:25

there's uh there was certain

00:44:26

circumstances where I've been uh to some

00:44:29

really serious crime scenes there and

00:44:32

you just needed to to to talk to

00:44:34

somebody about it, somebody different.

00:44:36

Not go you you know, I go home to the

00:44:38

wife and tell her, but that's the same

00:44:40

person all the time. So, I just felt

00:44:41

like I needed to to go and speak to

00:44:43

somebody. Uh in those days it was just

00:44:45

not heard of. There was no such thing as

00:44:48

counseling. There was no such thing as

00:44:50

going to uh somebody that uh could

00:44:52

actually just listen to you. It was one

00:44:55

of those, you know, big boy one of the

00:44:57

old boys clubs things again where if you

00:44:59

didn't like it, you don't want like what

00:45:01

you see, piss off,

00:45:03

>> you know, can't stand the heat, get out

00:45:04

of the kitchen.

00:45:05

>> You don't. And there's a lot of my

00:45:06

colleagues now within the Met that have,

00:45:09

you know, it's been with the Met so long

00:45:11

and the Met have got it in place now and

00:45:13

so is the New Zealand police. You know,

00:45:14

they're very very good at it, looking

00:45:16

after their employers. Uh but then

00:45:19

they've bottled it up so much they've

00:45:21

never had no one to talk to. And I I

00:45:23

talk to a person now in uh the UK uh on

00:45:26

a regular basis who's got PTSD,

00:45:29

>> uh who's traumatized by the crimes that

00:45:31

they've seen but have never had anybody

00:45:33

to speak to. And it just bottled up to

00:45:35

so much. It was a pressure cooker. And

00:45:37

one day the person exploded and became a

00:45:39

hermit and didn't know what to do. He

00:45:41

was he was he was ready to to uh throw

00:45:44

in the uh

00:45:45

>> throw throw in the towel.

00:45:50

>> Many decades have passed, so we can we

00:45:52

can laugh now about the absurdity of the

00:45:53

the GP taking the pulse on the neck of

00:45:56

the decapitated head. But

00:45:58

>> did you have nightmares about that or

00:46:00

anything?

00:46:01

>> I I did have nightmares. It was I

00:46:04

wouldn't say nightmares. I was I I that

00:46:06

was the last thing I saw before I went

00:46:10

to sleep. It was all

00:46:12

>> For how long?

00:46:13

>> For I would say for at least a week.

00:46:17

>> That head. So you always the actual

00:46:20

movement of me moving that that coat

00:46:23

that stayed with me for Yeah. for at

00:46:25

least a week. That that was the last

00:46:26

thing I saw uh before darkness, you

00:46:29

know, before before I actually slept.

00:46:31

But I've never I've never got up in a

00:46:34

cold sweat uh and uh you know panicked.

00:46:38

Uh but it that's not to say I've not had

00:46:40

it on the last thing on my mind and the

00:46:42

first thing in the morning as well. You

00:46:44

wake up to it and you go, "Oh yeah, did

00:46:46

that really happen yesterday?" Yeah. Oh

00:46:48

yeah, it was, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You

00:46:49

start trying to put your uh you know,

00:46:51

put your life in order again and go,

00:46:53

"No, let's press on. It's another day,

00:46:56

>> another body."

00:46:57

>> It's It's a lot for a human to process.

00:47:00

>> It It can be. Yeah. That's what people

00:47:01

say. They they they can't understand how

00:47:04

you can keep so much in from the some of

00:47:06

the things you uh seen. How do you

00:47:08

process it? How do you keep it in there?

00:47:10

Uh you know, how do you how do you stop

00:47:12

going sticking two pencils up your nose

00:47:14

and go wibble wibble wibble and sit in

00:47:16

the corner? You know, rocking sitting

00:47:20

facing the corner.

00:47:21

>> Facing the corner.

00:47:22

>> Yeah. I mean, like it gets it gets

00:47:23

bleaker in your book um The Dead Speak.

00:47:25

There's a story on page 129 about a man

00:47:27

who murdered his wife with a hammer. Um,

00:47:30

knowing what we now know about your

00:47:32

upbringing and your personal experience

00:47:35

firsthand with domestic violence, when

00:47:38

you turn up to this crime scene and

00:47:39

there's there's a lady upstairs that's

00:47:41

dead in bed having been had her head and

00:47:43

face smashed in with a hammer and the

00:47:46

her husband who's downstairs sobering up

00:47:49

at this stage, no doubt, confessing to

00:47:51

it.

00:47:53

Yeah. How do you how do you approach

00:47:55

that with professionalism? I, like I

00:47:57

say, I switch on that the professional

00:48:00

mind while I'm in there. And that's not

00:48:02

to that's not to say after I've left the

00:48:04

crime scene. I that that that part of me

00:48:06

is going, "Oh, that that could have

00:48:08

happened. Yeah, that could have happened

00:48:10

to my mom." Quite easy. Uh, it could

00:48:13

have happened. But yeah, you you again,

00:48:15

you've just got to switch that off

00:48:17

because that was quite a gory one. That

00:48:19

was, you know, that was a really nasty

00:48:22

uh nasty offense. any murder is a nasty

00:48:24

offense. But that that was really

00:48:26

graphic. Uh that part the per the person

00:48:28

that did that completely lost it.

00:48:31

>> Uh

00:48:31

>> yeah. After she she came home and

00:48:33

confessed her having an affair and then

00:48:35

she fell asleep and then he attacked her

00:48:37

in his sleep.

00:48:37

>> He went Yeah. He went out and uh went to

00:48:39

the shed and got a hammer and went

00:48:40

straight upstairs. Very methodical. He

00:48:42

wanted to do it. Uh still drunk

00:48:45

obviously. He most probably regretted it

00:48:46

in the morning. Uh put a put a uh a

00:48:50

pillow over the head. that wasn't going

00:48:53

to stop it. And uh yeah, just hammered

00:48:55

her. And it was really really quite

00:48:57

graphic.

00:49:03

In a case like that where um the husband

00:49:06

has called um and confessed to this

00:49:09

crime and you've come around and he's

00:49:10

there and the murder weapon's there, why

00:49:13

is it necessary to do such a thorough

00:49:15

crime examination? There's that saying

00:49:18

an open shut case.

00:49:19

>> Yeah, we get that. We get asked that

00:49:21

that a lot of times as well if it's if

00:49:24

it's so open and short where the

00:49:25

person's uh sat there cuz this person

00:49:28

did they phoned the police. They sat

00:49:30

there and said uh uh it was me. Don't

00:49:33

worry, I've committed the crime. Open

00:49:35

shut case. Okay, fine. But forensic

00:49:38

science doesn't we're not there with a

00:49:40

forensic science. We get one chance. We

00:49:43

go into that crime scene. We're looking

00:49:44

for the evidence on all evidence that

00:49:47

could link a person to have committed

00:49:49

this crime because once we go things

00:49:53

change, they're all going to change. So,

00:49:54

they're going to clean up. Everything's

00:49:55

going to be put back to normal. So, we

00:49:56

can't go back to that crime scene again.

00:49:59

So, what happens in two weeks time where

00:50:02

that scenario changes, the person

00:50:04

actually didn't do that. They've changed

00:50:06

their story and they're saying, "Well,

00:50:07

it actually wasn't me. It was my brother

00:50:10

>> who uh came in. We were both here and he

00:50:13

did it, but I I I just wanted to say it

00:50:16

was me or I thought it was me. I woke up

00:50:18

and I thought it was me. So, who's to

00:50:20

say it wasn't somebody else? Who's to

00:50:21

say that the person is going through uh

00:50:24

mental challenges and they've just made

00:50:26

it up themselves or they've come in?

00:50:27

Nobody knows. Do you know that the the

00:50:30

actual story could change over a period

00:50:32

of time? So, we have to gather all that

00:50:34

information uh at the time just in case

00:50:36

of those changes within the uh uh time

00:50:39

frame and story. Was

00:50:42

it was it was it the story in the book

00:50:44

where you move the body and the eyeball

00:50:46

the eyeball falls out?

00:50:47

>> It was that was a terrible moment. It

00:50:49

was it was uh the we was uh well I was

00:50:52

moving the body to put it into the uh

00:50:54

the body bag uh because the the the face

00:50:58

was quite badly uh deformed through the

00:51:01

injuries. Uh the the the side of the

00:51:05

face was all caved in. Moved the head to

00:51:08

the side. the eye popped out, rolled

00:51:11

onto my knee. We had to put it back in

00:51:15

so that uh we could put it back in the

00:51:16

bag. So yeah, the things do like that

00:51:18

things like that happen. It was just it

00:51:21

was just one of those things. You you

00:51:22

you just do it. It's just part of the

00:51:25

job. It's just you you just it's just a

00:51:27

natural instinct. You you're not going

00:51:29

to sit there and cry because it's there.

00:51:31

You've got to get on with it and just

00:51:32

put it back and carry on with it. What

00:51:35

do you what do you do after a shift like

00:51:36

that

00:51:38

>> then? Then

00:51:39

>> oh go get pissed.

00:51:41

>> You get pissed. Now it's completely

00:51:43

different. It's completely different way

00:51:44

of life. You just you just go home. And

00:51:46

I just I used to just go home and I like

00:51:48

watching TV and I like what reading

00:51:50

journals. Uh I like going for a walk. I

00:51:53

like to see I like to see nature.

00:51:55

Strangely enough strangely enough I love

00:51:58

to feed sparrows. That's one of my

00:52:00

hobbies. I love to sit there and look at

00:52:03

watch sparrows. I just think they're the

00:52:05

underrated bird of the the world. I

00:52:07

really do. Forget your parents. No,

00:52:09

forget your parents and all that. So,

00:52:11

the emuse's I think they're just

00:52:13

overrated. I just love the common

00:52:14

household sparrow and I just it just

00:52:16

relaxes me when they when they're

00:52:18

eating. I don't know why. It's just

00:52:20

really sad.

00:52:21

>> Um there's a phrase that uh gets used in

00:52:24

your book um a few times actually or

00:52:26

variations of it. The stench of death.

00:52:29

>> Yes. The stench of death. I would never

00:52:32

uh never get rid of that. Uh knowing

00:52:35

what the stench of death is like. It's

00:52:37

it's a really strange

00:52:40

smell uh that stays with you all the

00:52:42

time. I know where when death is around

00:52:45

and I know the smell of death before

00:52:46

I've gone into a crime scene because it

00:52:48

starts hitting you especially in the

00:52:50

mort. A mortary has got a smell all to

00:52:51

itself. You you no matter how much you

00:52:53

clean a morttery that smell will always

00:52:56

be there. It's that smell of

00:52:57

disinfectant and death all at the same

00:52:59

time. And I was saying this uh earlier

00:53:02

which just popped up. It was uh one of

00:53:04

those things that uh my sense of smell

00:53:08

for death is so acute that a cat my cat

00:53:12

bought in a mouse put it underneath it

00:53:14

killed it. Put it underneath the sofa

00:53:17

and after I think it was 2 days I could

00:53:19

smell the death of the mouse even though

00:53:21

it was that small. No one else in the

00:53:22

house. They thought I was going mad and

00:53:24

and I said, "No, the smell of death in

00:53:26

this house and I don't know where it is,

00:53:28

but the smell of death." Next day we

00:53:30

moved the seti there was the mouse.

00:53:33

>> Seems like you you've got a good nose. I

00:53:34

feel

00:53:34

>> I've got a fantastic nose

00:53:36

>> for this job. It's probably a bonus to

00:53:38

have a terrible nose.

00:53:39

>> It would be actually a really good If

00:53:41

you had no sense of smell, then this

00:53:42

job's for you.

00:53:44

>> Well, what is there any way you can

00:53:46

describe it?

00:53:48

>> It's like compare it to something.

00:53:50

>> Yeah. Okay. So try having diarrhea and

00:53:55

vomit at the same time put in a bowl

00:53:59

and uh

00:54:02

smell that. It's it's a Yeah, it's so

00:54:06

it's like a vomit

00:54:08

and diarrhea that's just been cooked

00:54:11

slightly to give it that odor. So that

00:54:13

odor that comes away from slightly

00:54:14

cooking it and awful. So just a slight

00:54:17

awful. So if you got liver, cook liver

00:54:20

slightly and then mash that up and be

00:54:22

sick in it as well. That's the smell of

00:54:25

uh that that that seems to be like the

00:54:27

smell of death. And when I went to one

00:54:29

of my first mortaries uh with the smell

00:54:31

of death, the the pathologist that was

00:54:32

there uh very animate guy that was uh

00:54:35

performing it. Uh we went in there first

00:54:37

of all it was a really smelly body. It

00:54:39

was a floater, what we call a floater,

00:54:41

where a person had been uh found in the

00:54:43

the water and they popped to the top

00:54:45

when the gases have come out. And uh

00:54:49

we he we went in there and his assistant

00:54:51

went, "Right, you all need to put some

00:54:53

mint on because it'll disguise the smell

00:54:56

of the odor that's going to come out cuz

00:54:58

as soon as we cut into there, this gas

00:55:00

is going to come out and it's going to

00:55:01

overwhelm you." So, we all put this mint

00:55:03

on. This was the first mortar I've been,

00:55:05

the first postmortem I've been to. We

00:55:07

all put this mint on. It cut down the

00:55:09

body. Gases came out and I was really

00:55:14

ill at that point. All I could smell was

00:55:17

that vomit [ __ ] smell with mint and it

00:55:22

was the worst smell ever. And I've never

00:55:24

ever put it on since. I've always wanted

00:55:27

just that smell. Not just that smell,

00:55:29

but I've always I've always I've always

00:55:32

preferred just the smell of death on its

00:55:34

own than trying to hide it or mask it.

00:55:38

So, so meant like um like underneath

00:55:40

your nose.

00:55:40

>> Just like a fix. It was like a vix rub

00:55:42

from a vapor rub.

00:55:43

>> Yeah. What else? Did you have masks?

00:55:45

>> Uh then? No. No. No. Well, no, you

00:55:47

didn't have masks then. You do now, but

00:55:49

then it was a

00:55:51

>> uh especially when uh he was going

00:55:53

around and he he was picking out bits of

00:55:56

the body, uh the putrid parts of the

00:55:58

body that all started to uh putrify and

00:56:02

he was flinging about and blood was all

00:56:04

coming down. So, we had blood all over

00:56:06

all over our suits. Uh, we had no over

00:56:09

Oh, no. We had the green gown on. Uh,

00:56:11

but there was nothing else. And that

00:56:13

that was the first time I turned around

00:56:15

and was ready to walk out. Uh, but since

00:56:19

then standards have changed. You know,

00:56:21

you don't get the pathologist walking in

00:56:22

with cigarette in his hand and a

00:56:25

sandwich in the other one ready to cut

00:56:28

over. And that's what they did. You

00:56:29

know, even my first few postmortems.

00:56:30

There he is. cigarette in hand, sandwich

00:56:32

in the corner, ashtray, and uh just

00:56:35

carried on as if it was just, you know,

00:56:36

he was, you know, cutting into an

00:56:39

animal.

00:56:43

>> Man, you've seen some stuff.

00:56:44

>> I have. I've seen I've seen uh lots and

00:56:48

lots of things in my life. Uh some

00:56:51

obviously some are good, but uh there's

00:56:53

a lot uh that uh really really do play,

00:56:56

you know, that that I've seen. And it's

00:56:58

not it's remember it's not just about

00:57:00

the the murder ones uh even the the the

00:57:04

victims of crime that I see themselves.

00:57:06

So going to like a burglary artifice. So

00:57:09

burglary artifice is where normally an

00:57:11

elderly person and a person has come in

00:57:13

uh play acting as a uh you know a gas

00:57:16

man or an electric man and they they say

00:57:19

look I need to go and test your

00:57:20

appliances and the little old lady or

00:57:22

the little old man says yeah yeah please

00:57:23

come in and they they say they start

00:57:26

sitting them down with a notebook and

00:57:27

they say right we go did you have a gas

00:57:30

leak here and then they say oh do you

00:57:31

mind if I go to the toilet

00:57:34

they're still sitting there and they're

00:57:35

going around and they're taking all

00:57:37

their valuables M

00:57:38

>> and then they go and then the little old

00:57:40

lady afterwards they make the excuse and

00:57:42

go the little old lady afterwards maybe

00:57:44

the day after uh finds out their life

00:57:47

savings are gone cuz they never use

00:57:48

banks then they put it in there and that

00:57:50

they those sort of crimes is really

00:57:52

quite uh you know that that is one of

00:57:54

the worst of humanity.

00:57:57

>> Yeah. There's a thing in in a quote I

00:57:59

had written down from your book where

00:58:00

you talk about um things involving um

00:58:02

young children and the elderly are the

00:58:04

ones that impacted you the most.

00:58:06

>> It is. Yeah. the the ones that uh where

00:58:08

they've got no

00:58:10

uh self-defense of themselves. You know,

00:58:13

if you if you're caught in a fight going

00:58:14

through that, there's a there's a slight

00:58:16

chance that, you know, you you could

00:58:18

fight back. But when you're a vulnerable

00:58:20

child or a vulnerable uh elderly person,

00:58:23

>> there's no fighting back. That that's

00:58:26

the cruel thing about crimes. Yeah. When

00:58:28

you when you're talking about uh uh

00:58:30

crimes against those those sort of

00:58:32

individuals.

00:58:33

>> So, everything we've we've been going

00:58:35

almost an hour. Everything we've

00:58:36

discussed so far is from your time um at

00:58:38

Scotland Yard in the UK. Then you moved

00:58:40

to New Zealand in 2003.

00:58:42

>> Yes.

00:58:43

>> First observations.

00:58:44

>> I loved it because we came over on a

00:58:46

holiday first of all. So it was

00:58:49

>> there's a quote in your book that I

00:58:50

really liked and I'd never heard it

00:58:51

before. Something like um you go on a

00:58:53

plane for 24 hours and you go back in

00:58:55

time 20 years.

00:58:55

>> It Yeah. So you you come you turn your

00:58:58

clock back 12 hours. Okay. Or you put

00:59:01

your clock forward 12 hours. You put

00:59:03

your life back 20 years. And that's how

00:59:05

it was. That's how I felt, you know, cuz

00:59:06

you you you you was in the hustle and

00:59:08

bustle of uh New Scotland Yard and

00:59:10

Westminster and all of these people all

00:59:12

around you and then you get off the

00:59:14

plane in uh in uh Oakland and you go,

00:59:17

you know, I was over on the Northshore

00:59:19

at the time and there's kids walking

00:59:20

around barefoot, you know, people in

00:59:22

jandles. I never knew they were called

00:59:24

jadle. We call them flip flop flip

00:59:25

flops, you know, and it took me at least

00:59:28

2 years to actually get the term jandals

00:59:30

in into my head. But there's people

00:59:32

wandering around so relaxed and they've

00:59:34

got the shorts on and it was like, wow,

00:59:36

this is a different world, is you know,

00:59:37

you just wouldn't get that in the UK.

00:59:39

>> Well, it must have been a shock for you

00:59:41

the first time you went to a packing

00:59:42

sale and you saw people in pajamas or

00:59:45

>> it was I just thought I'd actually come

00:59:47

to some Ludy bin. It was like

00:59:50

it was it was a completely different

00:59:52

aspect on life. It was just like, "Oh,

00:59:54

these people are really cool. They're so

00:59:56

laid-back." It was uh and and I I got

00:59:59

that I got that saying. I'm thinking,

01:00:00

"Yes, it is. This is 20 years ago. This

01:00:03

is how it was in the 80s for me."

01:00:06

>> What about escalators here at the mall?

01:00:07

Did you find them weird? I I I This is

01:00:09

one thing I love about the UK where you

01:00:12

if you're not walking, you stand to the

01:00:13

left.

01:00:14

>> Everyone's in a hurry. I love the

01:00:16

efficiency of the UK.

01:00:17

>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

01:00:19

I always remember the first time I was s

01:00:21

standing there on the escalators on the

01:00:23

left hand side and people are plowing

01:00:25

down me and I'm going where the [ __ ] are

01:00:27

you going and they're trying to knock

01:00:28

you out of the way and I'm going cuz you

01:00:29

always are especially on the under

01:00:31

underground the underground if you're

01:00:33

not on the left hand side you're going

01:00:34

to get swept away you learn that on day

01:00:37

one.

01:00:37

>> Yeah. You don't know where you're going.

01:00:39

It's just like keep to the left. You're

01:00:40

all it's it's always best.

01:00:42

>> So um you joined the New Zealand police

01:00:45

here almost immediately. Um what were

01:00:47

your first impressions? Were we

01:00:48

backwards similar or more advanced?

01:00:51

>> No, I I wouldn't say backwards. The New

01:00:53

Zealand police here was uh cuz we we I

01:00:56

wouldn't say piggyback the UK. Uh but we

01:00:59

have the same influences and the same uh

01:01:02

uh jurisdictions, so the same court

01:01:05

proceedings as they do in the UK. So we

01:01:07

piggybacked or we piggyback each other

01:01:09

from there. So the the I I the it was

01:01:13

just the way of working that was

01:01:17

slightly different. Everyone's more in a

01:01:19

rush to get a job done in the UK where

01:01:22

over here it was a little bit more at

01:01:24

the beginning a little bit more relaxed

01:01:25

and uh you know she'll be fine.

01:01:28

>> And uh the the the processes the the the

01:01:33

actual working tools were really really

01:01:36

cool. There was they were second to none

01:01:38

over here.

01:01:39

I can't, you know, I can't slag off the

01:01:42

the the equipment or anything like that

01:01:44

cuz it was we we over here we had, you

01:01:46

know, some of the best technology

01:01:48

because the we had a lot of the

01:01:50

companies that wanted to test it because

01:01:51

we were like a testing ground. We only

01:01:53

had a population then of about 5 million

01:01:55

people. So we was a perfect testing

01:01:57

ground for the new forensic uh you know

01:02:01

databases. So DNA database of the the

01:02:03

fingerprint database. we had such a nice

01:02:05

population but in a big area just like

01:02:07

the same as UK that we they could use

01:02:10

and test these uh these these

01:02:12

instruments.

01:02:13

>> Yeah. And I feel like yeah I mean it's

01:02:14

only 23 years ago that we're talking but

01:02:16

I feel like New Zealand was um a

01:02:18

different place then may maybe more

01:02:20

innocent than what it is now. Like

01:02:22

violent crime and stabbings in

01:02:23

particular are fairly you know common

01:02:26

place sadly in New Zealand now. But um

01:02:28

back then I suppose you you could sit

01:02:30

around twiddling your fingers and thumbs

01:02:31

for a while waiting for something.

01:02:34

drastic to happen.

01:02:35

>> It was Yeah. So, was it was a it wasn't

01:02:39

common, but we dealt with a lot of

01:02:40

deaths that uh on the other side as

01:02:42

well. So, you know, uh people just been

01:02:45

found uh dead on the side of, you know,

01:02:48

we don't know how they died. So, we was

01:02:50

at the mortuary all the time trying to

01:02:52

identify them. Uh so, they didn't need

01:02:55

to be in a you know, certain in, you

01:02:57

know, a typical murder crime. It could

01:02:59

have been any time. any unknown deaths

01:03:02

uh that they could have come from and we

01:03:04

would have gone to them.

01:03:05

>> Yeah. How long were you here before you

01:03:07

started to feel like a Kiwi?

01:03:09

>> It actually took me a few years. I must

01:03:12

admit it wasn't an overnight experience.

01:03:14

Uh especially Christmas.

01:03:16

>> Well, we're recording this in a January.

01:03:17

You're wearing a Hawaiian shirt. So,

01:03:19

>> yes, I am. I'm here now. Still got jeans

01:03:21

on. Still still got away from

01:03:25

>> I've still not wear the shorts.

01:03:27

So, that's that's still a few years away

01:03:29

yet.

01:03:30

Well, can you remember the first time

01:03:32

you had like a conversation with someone

01:03:34

back home and they they told you you'd

01:03:36

turned into a kiwi?

01:03:37

>> Yeah, that was a I get that all the time

01:03:39

now, but I think it took about 5 years.

01:03:42

I got quite a course accident. You can

01:03:43

tell, you know, it's there's the accent

01:03:46

there. Okay.

01:03:47

>> But you talk to my family over in uh in

01:03:50

Britain. Oh, you're posh. You know,

01:03:54

>> you're where where's your accent gone?

01:03:56

you know, and they're all ebaggum, you

01:03:58

know, no and bul and all that. And when

01:04:01

I speak to them, my I still think I've

01:04:04

got a really bad northern accent,

01:04:05

especially when I speak to people. Even

01:04:07

now, my daughter, you know, she when

01:04:08

when she used to be at school, it was

01:04:10

like, "Dad, don't say anything to the

01:04:12

teachers cuz, you know, they won't

01:04:13

understand you."

01:04:16

>> That's so

01:04:18

And I I lived with that for for ages.

01:04:21

But then you speak to your family

01:04:22

members back in the UK and they go, "Oh,

01:04:24

you've gone so posh nowadays. you know,

01:04:25

you you've lost your accent. It's all

01:04:27

gone.

01:04:28

>> So, they think you you don't fit in

01:04:30

here.

01:04:30

>> I don't fit in there. Fit in there. It's

01:04:31

like no man's land. Okay, I'll just keep

01:04:33

quiet.

01:04:34

>> Um Yeah. So, you're you moved to New

01:04:36

Zealand. You're here for I suppose like

01:04:38

2 years or so. And then um the um Boxing

01:04:41

Day tsunami happens in Indonesia and

01:04:44

you're over there um in a role called

01:04:47

DVI. What's DVI?

01:04:49

>> So, disaster victim identification. So

01:04:51

there's a team of us that go over there

01:04:53

uh to be part of a big uh multinational

01:04:56

team to identify the victims of the

01:04:59

disaster.

01:05:00

>> And that was really overwhelming. Yeah.

01:05:02

>> For anyone that can't remember um or was

01:05:05

maybe too young to remember, 275,000

01:05:08

>> 275,000 that we know of uh on average uh

01:05:12

died from those massive waves that hit I

01:05:15

think it was 12 continents

01:05:18

in Asia. How do you feel when you get

01:05:20

asked to go? Are you apprehensive or

01:05:22

excited?

01:05:23

>> No. Always apprehensive. It's the

01:05:25

unknown. You don't know what you're

01:05:26

going to face? You don't know if uh

01:05:28

there's going to be another earthquake.

01:05:30

You don't know if something's going to

01:05:32

happen on route,

01:05:35

what you're going to see, how bad are

01:05:37

the body's going to be. So, you're

01:05:39

always on edge until you get there again

01:05:42

and you put that PPE gear on and you

01:05:45

start going into it and you start doing

01:05:46

your job. M yeah there's a passage in

01:05:49

the book on page um 32 which I marked

01:05:52

with a post-it note. Uh this is one of

01:05:54

the the passages where I was reading it

01:05:56

uh in the office and some of the girls

01:05:57

were really enjoying it. Some of them

01:05:59

couldn't listen to it. Um

01:06:02

yeah. Should I read this out? Do you

01:06:04

want to read this out?

01:06:05

>> How's your eyes? How's your eyesight?

01:06:07

I'm sure I can do it at arms length.

01:06:10

>> Everything's at arms length now. It's

01:06:11

getting further away. See the the bit

01:06:13

there about you wearing wearing um

01:06:17

so uh so we're doing during

01:06:19

putrification.

01:06:20

>> Yeah.

01:06:20

>> So during putification the body is

01:06:22

rapidly uh rapidly decaying emitting

01:06:25

foul odor and becoming wet and mushy.

01:06:28

The epidermal layer of the skin detaches

01:06:30

from the dermal layer. So when the body

01:06:32

uh body bags were opened the skin was

01:06:35

often found floating in the goo and ooze

01:06:38

uh released from the body. So we had to

01:06:40

reach into the uh odorous goo to

01:06:42

retrieve the skin from the hands and

01:06:44

feet and clean it with soapy water. We

01:06:47

would then place the skin of the

01:06:48

deceased fingers on our own hand like a

01:06:51

glove. It's called deg gloving and uh

01:06:54

record the fine detail using black

01:06:56

powder and white sticky labels or black

01:06:58

ink on a specialized fingerprint form.

01:07:01

Uh this process is known as de- gloving.

01:07:03

And then you got the mummification one

01:07:05

as well which is the boiling hand one

01:07:06

which it might be too graphic to go

01:07:08

into.

01:07:12

Yeah, I mean it's it's not not an easy

01:07:14

read and it's not easy to hear. Um but

01:07:17

it's important work that you're doing.

01:07:19

>> It's extremely important work. It's uh

01:07:21

that that's what keeps you going is

01:07:23

because of the importance of the work

01:07:25

knowing that you're you're there for a

01:07:28

purpose and that purpose is to get these

01:07:30

uh these individuals back to their loved

01:07:32

ones. And you do it which way you can,

01:07:35

you know, the best way you can. And if

01:07:38

if it means uh which seems strange, if

01:07:41

it means being part of them by putting

01:07:43

their skin on you to to to get that uh

01:07:45

information, then so be it. We'll do

01:07:47

that.

01:07:48

>> Uh because if that's the best way to

01:07:50

record that fine, rich detail, then

01:07:52

we'll do that.

01:07:54

>> I I don't know. I I I suppose it's just

01:07:56

alarming. Like it was alarming for I'm

01:07:57

I'm a 53 year old man. I'm old as [ __ ]

01:08:00

I've got no idea.

01:08:01

>> I'm 58.

01:08:03

No, but this has been your your life and

01:08:05

it's um it's it's a it's a it's a world

01:08:07

that luckily I've been um you know

01:08:09

completely um sheltered from. Um but

01:08:12

this is a reality and it's a it's a it's

01:08:14

a job that you and many other people are

01:08:16

doing. But that's what I wanted to show

01:08:18

in the book that you know the the

01:08:20

processes that these these professional

01:08:23

people within the police uh and the the

01:08:25

you know the scientists that go with

01:08:27

them uh of how we actually go into so

01:08:30

much detail to try and make sure there's

01:08:32

no mistakes. That's the last thing we

01:08:34

want to make is those mistakes. It

01:08:35

happened in Air India as we know you

01:08:37

know the wrong bodies went to the wrong

01:08:38

people should never happen and uh you

01:08:41

know then that was just through you know

01:08:43

the the the way that it was processed

01:08:46

you know the the information was put in

01:08:47

the wrong places uh but it's it was it

01:08:51

would never happen over there and it

01:08:53

would certainly never happen over here

01:08:54

you know the DVI team here is second to

01:08:56

none

01:08:58

>> when you're over there say um Indonesia

01:09:00

or Christ Church for the earthquake um

01:09:03

and you call home to speak to Alien

01:09:04

Hannah

01:09:05

Um, and they ask how your day was like,

01:09:07

do you do you lie or do you just brush

01:09:09

over it? What do you

01:09:10

>> No, in the Thai tsunami one, I lied.

01:09:12

>> I told them uh what they wanted to hear

01:09:15

that I was safe and well.

01:09:17

>> And then all I wanted to know was their

01:09:19

day, what they've been through, you

01:09:20

know. I wanted to hear the good part.

01:09:22

Yeah. I I just wanted to feel good

01:09:24

inside that somebody uh you that I loved

01:09:29

was going through a normal day when I

01:09:31

wasn't.

01:09:33

I'm probably projecting here, but how

01:09:35

how do you not get impatient with them

01:09:36

on the phone if they're venting about

01:09:37

trivial [ __ ]

01:09:39

That did actually happen once. Yeah,

01:09:43

that that happened with the wife and

01:09:45

she's she's telling me, "Oh, well, you

01:09:46

know, I've got I've got to do this

01:09:47

tomorrow and I really don't want to do

01:09:49

that." And I went, "What the [ __ ] Come

01:09:50

on." And then I realized I'd said it and

01:09:53

I went, "Oh, you know, okay, maybe, you

01:09:55

know, I'm going to I wanted to hear

01:09:57

about your your day and then just

01:09:59

because you said something that was just

01:10:00

slightly, you know, out of context, I go

01:10:03

and take it out of you, which it should

01:10:04

never have happened."

01:10:05

>> It's understandable though cuz you were

01:10:07

surrounded by by death and just this

01:10:09

unimaginable grief. And I suppose it

01:10:11

just realizes just how inane

01:10:13

>> almost everything else is in comparison.

01:10:15

>> It is, especially when you're being at

01:10:17

the morttery, you've got bodies after

01:10:19

bodies. They're just coming through.

01:10:20

It's just constant flow. It's like a

01:10:22

production line. And then outside when

01:10:24

you're having your break, so you're

01:10:25

sitting there trying to eat. Okay. And

01:10:28

then in front of you there's 20 porter

01:10:30

cabins. Oh, not porter cabins, 20

01:10:32

containers. And within those 20

01:10:34

containers, 50 other bodies. So now

01:10:37

you've got hundreds of people. You're

01:10:38

eating and you've got hundreds of people

01:10:42

that are now waiting to come and see

01:10:43

you.

01:10:45

>> And that's the reality. That's not

01:10:46

that's what I didn't want to say to her

01:10:49

at the time. Oh, it's it's all I'm

01:10:51

seeing is just there's a body. There's a

01:10:54

body.

01:10:55

>> And you know, I didn't want to say that.

01:10:56

So, but that that was the reality of it.

01:10:58

We knew that we was going to get body

01:11:00

after body after body.

01:11:02

>> You you mentioned eating just before,

01:11:04

not not the lobster.

01:11:07

>> That was that was a really foolish

01:11:09

mistake I made. It was my first night in

01:11:12

Thailand. And I'm it was because we was

01:11:14

in the a really good class hotel that

01:11:16

they'd uh made ready uh really quickly

01:11:19

for the the police personnel from around

01:11:21

the world. And I sat there and I looked

01:11:23

at the menu and they went, "Don't worry,

01:11:25

we can eat anything. You can absolutely

01:11:27

have anything on the menu." So me being

01:11:30

a greedy council lad, you know, from the

01:11:31

past, I've not had lobster for years.

01:11:34

And I seen it on there and I went, "So

01:11:36

can I have a lobster?" "Yeah, yeah, you

01:11:38

can have lobster." Okay. Got ordered,

01:11:40

started eating the lobster. and a German

01:11:43

uh from one of the German DVI team came

01:11:44

over. He'd been here for about 2 and 1/2

01:11:46

weeks and he came over and goes, "You do

01:11:50

you know what you're eating?" "Yeah,

01:11:51

it's a lobster." "Do you know where that

01:11:53

lobster's been? It was caught

01:11:55

yesterday." "Yeah, do you know there's

01:11:57

hundreds of bodies still in the sea and

01:11:59

that lobster was most probably eating

01:12:01

them the couple of days ago."

01:12:03

And that was when reality hit. And

01:12:06

that's when I be I started becoming a

01:12:08

vegetarian just for that just for that

01:12:10

period while I was over there. I ate I

01:12:11

ate no meat. I ate nothing to do with

01:12:13

animals. Uh just because of that one

01:12:17

fatal uh mistake of making it on, you

01:12:19

know, eating that nighttime.

01:12:21

>> I mean um yeah, you you have to eat. You

01:12:24

do. Anyone is I think a lot of people

01:12:26

listening to this will probably wonder

01:12:27

how you how you you could keep your

01:12:29

appetite in that sort of environment

01:12:30

>> because you because you're uh working so

01:12:33

hard in a hot environment. So it's like

01:12:34

35°. You've got your PPE gear on. Okay.

01:12:38

Some so some of the time I was working

01:12:39

in in the uh offices at the IMC center

01:12:42

the information center where the

01:12:44

antimortar and postmortar were being

01:12:45

brought together wonderful air

01:12:47

conditioned room but I wanted to work in

01:12:49

the morttery as well. So I I had hate to

01:12:51

say it but the best both worlds so the

01:12:53

best both of experiences of working at

01:12:55

the IMC and the morttery but in the

01:12:57

mortary it's completely different.

01:12:58

There's no air conditioning there's no

01:13:00

cooling you've got full PPE gear on.

01:13:02

We've got all of the mass because we

01:13:04

don't know uh what uh we know the state

01:13:07

of the bodies where they're going

01:13:08

through putrification uh but uh we don't

01:13:10

know what diseases they may have. So

01:13:12

you've got to get fully kitted out 35

01:13:14

degrees of heat all say all in. So you

01:13:17

have to hydrate all the time completely

01:13:20

after kit that's number one is just

01:13:22

drink but you do get hungry because you

01:13:24

are actually you know taking

01:13:26

>> uh taking a lot out of you from that day

01:13:28

and if you don't eat you're not going to

01:13:30

be ready for the next day. So you do

01:13:31

force yourself time to eat uh because

01:13:34

you know that you've got to be fit and

01:13:36

healthy for that next day. You're not

01:13:37

you're not going to be doing anybody any

01:13:39

good by collapsing or fainting inside

01:13:41

the morttery.

01:13:43

>> What what was the the main cause of

01:13:45

death uh over there? It wasn't drowning

01:13:48

per se, was it?

01:13:50

>> No, it was actually most of it was by uh

01:13:53

implements hitting people as they're

01:13:55

being swept away on the water. So bits

01:13:57

of car, bits of wood, shrapnel that was

01:13:59

actually going into

01:14:01

>> the uh the the person's body which was

01:14:03

caused slicing major arteries and they

01:14:05

were bleeding to death.

01:14:06

>> So that was a lot of the injuries. We

01:14:08

seen a lot of tear issu tear injuries

01:14:11

and cut injuries from the deceased

01:14:13

people. When there's that much death in

01:14:16

a concentrated area, um the stench of

01:14:19

death that you talk about, is it

01:14:20

confined to your working environment or

01:14:22

can you smell it like all over the the

01:14:23

region? No, it was like it was just in

01:14:26

the mortaries uh area they were the that

01:14:29

you could

01:14:31

you the people were getting back to

01:14:33

trying to get back to normality. So the

01:14:35

locals were starting to cook in the

01:14:36

streets again. So that was actually uh

01:14:39

mimic uh you know getting getting rid of

01:14:40

any of the odor that was coming around

01:14:42

anyway. But the the the mortar itself

01:14:44

you you could smell the morttery from I

01:14:46

would say 300 m away.

01:14:49

>> Okay.

01:14:49

>> So going into the morttery you could

01:14:51

smell that from quite a far away. I

01:14:53

mean, yeah, life go life goes on. That's

01:14:55

one thing you learn. Yeah. How how

01:14:56

quickly after the tsunami were people

01:14:58

like cooking in the streets again and

01:15:00

selling the fake watches and the DVDs.

01:15:01

>> Yeah. Yeah. That was alo only after a

01:15:05

couple of weeks they trying to get to

01:15:06

back to some normality because a lot of

01:15:08

the time they're not getting any money,

01:15:10

>> you know, they have to carry on. They

01:15:12

have to Yeah. They have to carry on with

01:15:14

life or else they're they're they're

01:15:16

going to starve to death.

01:15:18

>> Yeah. I bring up the watches and the

01:15:19

DVDs because you talk about that in the

01:15:20

book. Um, even though you're an officer

01:15:22

of the law,

01:15:23

>> that was you were still purchasing these

01:15:26

goods that were you knew were less than

01:15:29

ethical. You know, there was three or

01:15:31

four times when I was going to admit

01:15:32

that from the book. I thought I was

01:15:35

thinking about it so often and I I

01:15:37

actually thought the publishers were

01:15:38

going to re take it out. That that was

01:15:41

my part. I thought that's going to be

01:15:42

too close to the cuff. They're going to

01:15:44

take that part out because I was going

01:15:45

to take it out myself three or four

01:15:46

times. And then I thought, no, that's

01:15:48

that's that's the reality of it. I

01:15:50

actually bought those items because I

01:15:52

thought at that time I was helping the

01:15:55

economy of the region.

01:15:56

>> Oh, come on, Tom. You could have just

01:15:58

made a donation. No, it's it's it's very

01:16:00

relatable. Like anyone that went to like

01:16:02

Thailand or Vietnam or Puket around that

01:16:05

time probably came home with a with like

01:16:07

a wallet full of DVDs.

01:16:08

>> Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't get me wrong. I

01:16:09

wasn't like Dellboy when I opened my my

01:16:11

coat and there was watches all down the

01:16:13

side. I only bought one watch, you know.

01:16:15

I'm not I'm not going to sell them at

01:16:16

home. Okay. Buying it from personal

01:16:18

supply. Does that make it any better?

01:16:20

>> That made me feel better.

01:16:22

>> And then um so you come you come home uh

01:16:24

and you there's like one um a debriefing

01:16:27

with the psychologist which is like a

01:16:28

1-hour mandatory thing.

01:16:30

>> Um

01:16:32

>> I don't The synic says that's like a box

01:16:34

tick ticking exercise. What can you do

01:16:36

in 1 hour?

01:16:37

>> No, it was so you had that debriefing

01:16:40

when you came back anyway. That was just

01:16:41

to make sure that you were signed up.

01:16:43

You could be signed to go back to work

01:16:45

again, but there were follow-ups. So you

01:16:47

could get follow-up ones uh if if

01:16:50

required or you felt there was a need to

01:16:52

uh the the police always had them uh

01:16:54

open and ready for anybody, not just

01:16:57

from going to the tie, but for anyone

01:16:59

that had been to any crime scene. So

01:17:01

it's been it's it's it's

01:17:04

been well put in place for uh police

01:17:06

employees.

01:17:09

>> Back then 2005, we were like were you

01:17:11

honest with the therapist or did you put

01:17:14

on a brave face?

01:17:16

If you want to know the truth, I put on

01:17:18

a brave face.

01:17:19

>> Yeah. It's 20 years ago.

01:17:20

>> Yeah. Yeah. I put on a brave face.

01:17:23

>> I was hiding uh a lot of the things that

01:17:28

cuz it was a stranger. I'm not one of

01:17:30

these people that was very good to talk

01:17:32

to to strangers. You know, most of the

01:17:34

jobs I do, I'm not talking to anyone

01:17:35

because they're not going to talk back

01:17:36

to me. But, uh it was really difficult

01:17:39

for me to tell somebody that I never

01:17:42

knew before what I'd seen. Mhm.

01:17:45

>> But then after about half an hour,

01:17:47

they're very good at bringing and

01:17:49

drawing that out to you. But I still hid

01:17:51

quite a lot. I was never ever going to

01:17:53

tell anybody, not even my wife some of

01:17:56

the things that uh uh that I've seen uh

01:18:00

over over there or some of the incidents

01:18:01

I've been to

01:18:02

>> and I would never would.

01:18:04

>> At the time, did you find that

01:18:06

beneficial or did it feel like just an

01:18:07

unnecessary speed hump? Then

01:18:11

>> I found it uh just as a a way to get

01:18:14

back into my position and get back to

01:18:16

work.

01:18:16

>> But since then I've been so you know for

01:18:20

after those periods so that the the

01:18:21

Christ Church earthquake and that we

01:18:23

went uh more frequently to the

01:18:26

psychologist and I actually felt uh more

01:18:30

comfortable talking about who I was.

01:18:32

Maybe it was cuz I was older. Maybe I

01:18:34

was because I was maturing more, but I

01:18:37

felt more comfortable being more open

01:18:38

and transparent to to the person I was

01:18:41

talking to. And I felt better for it.

01:18:43

>> It did make me feel good that I'm

01:18:45

speaking to somebody that's not going to

01:18:47

uh give a verdict on me or, you know,

01:18:50

patronize me or tell me that, you know,

01:18:53

what you're doing is wrong. Somebody

01:18:54

that just sat there and just went, just

01:18:57

tell me how do you feel?

01:18:58

>> And that really was helpful for, you

01:19:01

know, and it took me years to realize

01:19:02

that. took me a long time to realize

01:19:04

that just being open to somebody is is a

01:19:08

is a good thing.

01:19:10

>> Oh, you're a product of your

01:19:11

environment, aren't you?

01:19:12

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:12

>> So, you just want to want to fit in. If

01:19:14

no one else is doing it, you don't want

01:19:16

to be the odd one out. Um but no, it's

01:19:18

incredibly beneficial and I think

01:19:19

there's much better systems in place

01:19:20

now.

01:19:21

>> Without a doubt.

01:19:22

>> Yeah. See, um yeah, you mentioned Christ

01:19:25

Church just before. So, yeah. Um

01:19:27

February 22nd, 2011.

01:19:29

>> 11. Yeah.

01:19:30

>> Yeah. What are your recollections of

01:19:31

that day?

01:19:33

It was very surreal. It was one of those

01:19:36

where most people, we was at work at the

01:19:38

time, most people were sitting watching

01:19:40

the TV as it was coming out uh live at

01:19:43

the time with people running around and

01:19:45

you know there was a lot of chaos about

01:19:48

and but there was no reports of death.

01:19:51

Uh so we just carried on as it was and

01:19:53

we had the radio on in the background

01:19:54

and then

01:19:55

>> you were in Oakuckland at this point. We

01:19:56

were in Oakuckland

01:19:57

>> and then then throughout the day uh in

01:20:00

fact it was while I was going home there

01:20:02

was a there was a uh the radio station

01:20:05

stopped their music and it was like oh

01:20:07

there's reports of the bodies have been

01:20:10

uh recovered and there may be uh more to

01:20:14

come because rescue teams are going out

01:20:15

to to start looking and that's when I

01:20:18

thought well okay this there is going to

01:20:21

be need for a big disaster victim

01:20:23

identification uh uh team to go down

01:20:26

there. Um, I got a call as soon as I got

01:20:28

home to say, "Get prepared. Uh, you're

01:20:30

going to be one of the you're going to

01:20:32

be the first down there." And, uh,

01:20:33

that's when I got there the next very

01:20:36

early the next morning after trying to

01:20:38

get through the Oakland traffic. Uh,

01:20:39

which was a nightmare. Uh, you know, the

01:20:42

the the uh, RAF plane was leaving

01:20:44

supposedly leaving at 9:00 or 8:00 in

01:20:47

the morning and I'm stuck in traffic at

01:20:49

6:30, 7:00 in the morning trying to get

01:20:52

there. Uh, and I was never going to get

01:20:54

through. So that's when I called the,

01:20:56

you know, 111 and said, I need I need to

01:20:59

get through this traffic. Police. Yeah.

01:21:01

And we did. We got police escorts from

01:21:02

there. And that's as soon as got to the

01:21:04

police station. I couldn't even get out

01:21:05

my car. It was like everything was

01:21:07

dumped in the back of my car. And they

01:21:08

said, follow that police car.

01:21:09

>> And so their lights are uh the lights

01:21:12

and sirens are going and I'm in there in

01:21:14

my little Volvo trying to keep up with

01:21:16

them going 120ks an hour round streets

01:21:18

to get to to the place. And yeah, we so

01:21:21

we made it there to get onto the to the

01:21:23

plane straight away.

01:21:24

>> Well, thankfully that was uh 15 years

01:21:26

ago and Oakland traffic have sorted out

01:21:28

all their problems.

01:21:28

>> Of course they have. Yes, I it's so so

01:21:30

free flowing. It's a wonderful so much.

01:21:33

I look forward to it every morning.

01:21:35

>> God, it is it is 15 15 years to hard to

01:21:38

believe.

01:21:39

>> Do you know it's only seems like a week

01:21:40

ago. It's just so you know when you they

01:21:44

report it each year they have the

01:21:45

anniversary and they go okay it's year

01:21:47

13 it's year 14. I'm going no. I'd have

01:21:50

to look back,

01:21:51

>> but life's going so quick and you you

01:21:53

think really it was that long ago.

01:21:56

>> The older we get, the faster it goes.

01:21:57

>> It does as well.

01:21:58

>> What is happening? And you so you you go

01:22:00

down there and you experience your first

01:22:02

ever earthquake.

01:22:04

>> That was the most petrifying thing uh

01:22:07

that I've uh uh had in so many years.

01:22:11

It's it's it's really quite strange. you

01:22:13

you're standing there and then all of a

01:22:15

sudden the the the the floor starts to

01:22:17

feel like jelly and it's you start

01:22:20

moving about but then your body's going

01:22:21

with it and everything is just like out

01:22:23

of control and it's like you're having a

01:22:26

a fit but you can't control it and you

01:22:29

can't control the movement you can't be

01:22:31

stable and it was really strange the

01:22:33

first time and that was when we was at

01:22:35

the b you know we called it the base

01:22:36

camp but where you know everyone was at

01:22:38

the central area within Christ Church uh

01:22:41

trying to form a plan of action

01:22:44

to see, you know, how we're going to

01:22:46

>> identify these the victims that we knew

01:22:49

were going to be uh recovered.

01:22:53

>> When you're on the phone uh from

01:22:55

somewhere like that or before you leave

01:22:56

to go to a place like that, how do you

01:22:58

assure your family everything's going to

01:22:59

be okay when you don't know that for

01:23:01

sure?

01:23:02

>> Yeah. That you just I hate to say it,

01:23:05

you lie. You just say everything will be

01:23:08

fine, but we don't know. You just

01:23:10

reassure them. You have to reassure

01:23:11

them. uh the last thing you want is them

01:23:14

uh going through

01:23:16

uh trauma themselves not knowing what is

01:23:19

actually uh going to happen. Even though

01:23:22

I knew at the back of my mind, my my

01:23:24

wife, you know, she's not she's not

01:23:25

silly. She knows that I'm going to go

01:23:27

into the unknown. She knows I've been to

01:23:28

these type of incidents before. Uh and

01:23:31

she knows they they are going to be

01:23:32

terrified,

01:23:33

>> but we we're there for our, you know,

01:23:35

for the daughter as well. We're trying

01:23:36

to comfort her, say, "No, it's going to

01:23:38

be fine. And it's, you know, it's just a

01:23:39

it's a working uh it's it's a normal

01:23:42

working day for us.

01:23:43

>> She probably knows you're telling little

01:23:45

lies as well. You were already engaged

01:23:46

when you first meet her.

01:23:47

>> Yes.

01:23:52

>> That's a great a great you you could

01:23:53

have kept that one out. I was reading

01:23:55

that thinking, Tom, why did you put this

01:23:57

in here?

01:23:58

>> Which which one was that?

01:24:00

>> What was that about again?

01:24:01

>> You were you were engaged when you met

01:24:03

um you to someone else.

01:24:05

>> Yeah. Don't say that. and she had a um

01:24:07

she had a partner in

01:24:08

>> Oh, don't go back to that again. That

01:24:09

brings back memories that to us.

01:24:12

>> It's your book, mate. You don't. So,

01:24:15

okay. So, so Christ. So, you're down

01:24:16

there for a month um to get the job

01:24:18

done. Um initially, from what I can

01:24:20

gather, it's like full intact bodies and

01:24:23

then it becomes like parts.

01:24:24

>> It does. So, uh yeah, there Christ

01:24:27

Church was a completely different

01:24:29

incident to the Tai tsunami. Tyunami, we

01:24:32

had wet bodies. Christ Church, they were

01:24:33

dry. Uh so it's a completely different

01:24:36

uh uh cadaavver we're looking at. Uh so

01:24:38

the the techniques may be slightly

01:24:40

different to how we examine them. Uh but

01:24:44

uh we still treat them exactly the same

01:24:47

in every uh scenario we go to.

01:24:50

But uh the yeah Christ Church was we we

01:24:55

had the first uh the first deceased

01:24:56

coming out and uh we we go through that

01:25:00

process quite quickly at the first ones

01:25:02

because they're quite fresh. So there's

01:25:04

no real damage. They've just been f, you

01:25:06

know, been hit on the head or something

01:25:07

and they unfortunately gone down. Uh, so

01:25:10

that they they what hate to say, but

01:25:13

they're quite easy to examine.

01:25:15

>> So there's no there's no uh deformities

01:25:19

and so you can you can actually get all

01:25:21

that information relatively quickly. But

01:25:23

we know as the stages go along, the more

01:25:28

the the the more the time goes on, the

01:25:30

more that we know we're going to see

01:25:32

more atrocities from the the actual

01:25:35

victim itself.

01:25:36

>> But I don't want to dwell into them

01:25:38

because there's there's parts of the

01:25:40

book that the description of that that

01:25:42

I've left out the book anyway cuz I

01:25:43

don't think it needed to be added.

01:25:47

>> Do you invo avoid media at that point?

01:25:50

like whether it's um like I'm I'm just

01:25:52

I'm just trying to think back like um

01:25:54

current affair shows at the time like

01:25:55

Campbell Live for example.

01:25:56

>> I think every night for a couple of

01:25:58

weeks they would have had like survivors

01:26:00

or victims on talking about their loved

01:26:01

ones and

01:26:03

>> yeah do do you try and avoid media for

01:26:05

that reason like because it's just too

01:26:07

hard and it puts a human face to the

01:26:09

bodies that you're dealing with

01:26:10

>> to to watch the media to so so you

01:26:13

actually to to so you mean to to watch

01:26:14

the program itself or

01:26:16

>> Yes. or or to read the paper or

01:26:18

whatever. We we we don't we don't do

01:26:20

once we're in that zone. We we very

01:26:22

rarely actually uh read the paper or

01:26:24

watch the news. Uh we get the

01:26:26

information from the police themselves.

01:26:28

Uh because normally it's a lot more lot

01:26:30

more factual uh the information. So we

01:26:33

don't want to be downdress it or play it

01:26:36

by what we've read on the news and think

01:26:37

oh that's what we're going to get the

01:26:38

next day. We get the factual information

01:26:40

as it comes in all the time. So yeah we

01:26:42

keep we try and keep that media part out

01:26:44

of it. Uh but it was coming on from that

01:26:48

the the mortar itself that we had uh

01:26:50

that we uh did the the that's the victim

01:26:53

identification itself. We had containers

01:26:55

at the the front to to block any cameras

01:26:58

that could uh find their way in and that

01:27:01

they were the containers that had the

01:27:02

deceased people in. And then we had the

01:27:04

morttery itself which was an old uh

01:27:06

truck container station uh which got

01:27:08

converted within about 24 hours so that

01:27:10

we could get the morttery set up. But

01:27:12

there was a line. So between you you had

01:27:14

the you had the containers here, you had

01:27:17

the morttery here, and then you had the

01:27:19

line that goes through. And that was for

01:27:22

uh for people that not people, so

01:27:26

dignitaries that came along. So the the

01:27:28

the PM uh the and uh other dignitaries

01:27:31

that wanted to thank us for our work uh

01:27:34

that that were allowed to walk past that

01:27:36

they could see it uh see us actually

01:27:38

working and say thank us for everything.

01:27:40

But it was so strange. Every time they

01:27:42

came down there, there was it was like a

01:27:43

quick they they seen what we was doing

01:27:46

and it was quickly run off again because

01:27:48

it was it was the site that they were

01:27:49

seeing was overwhelming for some of

01:27:52

them.

01:27:55

>> Is it um I don't know if you've got an

01:27:57

answer for this or not, but is it easier

01:27:59

to accept death as an act of nature like

01:28:01

that versus a murder or is it no

01:28:04

different to you?

01:28:04

>> To to me it's no different as a deceased

01:28:06

person. We're trying to get the

01:28:07

information from that person as best as

01:28:09

we can. But it makes it feel

01:28:13

it just makes it feel I don't know. It's

01:28:17

a strange thing. When you've got a

01:28:19

murder scene, somebody else has

01:28:20

committed that murder scene. So there's

01:28:22

somebody else at fault. When you've got

01:28:23

a natural disaster, you've got no one to

01:28:25

blame except for nature.

01:28:27

>> So there's no blame except for nature

01:28:30

itself. And you can't ever put that

01:28:32

person in prison. You there's no ending

01:28:34

because nature's always going to carry

01:28:35

on. It's always going to cause disasters

01:28:37

from now to eternity. It's it's always

01:28:39

going to be there. Whereas crime could

01:28:41

be stopped.

01:28:42

>> Uh you know, oh no, it couldn't be

01:28:44

stopped. Crime couldn't be stopped as

01:28:45

well. But you you know the

01:28:48

the drugs and the alcohol and that goes

01:28:50

with it, you know, could could be cut

01:28:52

back from, you know, some of these

01:28:53

people. Some of them know they're doing

01:28:55

it. Some of the people around them,

01:28:56

their family members know they're doing

01:28:58

it. So yeah, that that part of it could

01:29:00

be escalated down. Nature you can never

01:29:03

mess about with it's always going to

01:29:04

happen.

01:29:06

Are there moments from Christ Church

01:29:08

that still sit with you today?

01:29:10

>> Uh,

01:29:12

yes there is. Well, sits with me. All of

01:29:15

them sit with me, but yeah, Christ

01:29:17

Church was

01:29:19

>> more to the fact that the people that we

01:29:23

were looking at were could have been the

01:29:25

people that we were walking down the

01:29:26

street with the day before.

01:29:28

>> Yeah,

01:29:28

>> that was the that was the crunch that

01:29:30

only affected me after a week with doing

01:29:32

it. And I I actually stood there and I

01:29:34

went and I was looking at one of the

01:29:36

deceased people and I went, "My

01:29:38

goodness, I I really could have been

01:29:40

talking to you uh a couple of, you know,

01:29:42

a week and a half ago." And it that was

01:29:45

the reality of it with the Christ

01:29:46

Church, knowing that the people there

01:29:50

were all either local Kiwis or Kiwi uh

01:29:54

people or, you know, people that have

01:29:56

been just uh wandering around having a

01:29:59

good time.

01:30:00

>> Hello. Sorry. Very quickly, we need your

01:30:03

keys, Tom. We just need to move the van

01:30:05

cuz Mel needs to move a car out.

01:30:08

>> Sorry. No, no, you're right.

01:30:10

>> Thank you.

01:30:11

>> You're doing great, by the way.

01:30:13

>> I felt horrible interrupting cuz the

01:30:16

conversation was so good.

01:30:18

>> Sorry.

01:30:19

>> There you go. That's all right.

01:30:20

>> Thank you. Hi. Hi. I'm JJ.

01:30:23

>> Hello, JJ. Oh, hello.

01:30:24

>> I was in my own podcast.

01:30:25

>> I was seeing you. I noticed you in

01:30:27

there. I I got the privilege of seeing

01:30:29

you there. Yeah, I was talking about a

01:30:32

very different subject to you right now.

01:30:33

>> It's okay. We're just talking about one

01:30:34

of New Zealand's worst natural

01:30:35

disasters. It's fine.

01:30:39

>> Sorry. Um, all right. Cutting my mic and

01:30:43

keep going.

01:30:45

>> There was another um awful incident that

01:30:47

happened in Christ Church. This is after

01:30:48

your retirement, the the mosque

01:30:50

shooting. Um,

01:30:52

>> when you hear about that, like from an

01:30:54

outside perspective, are you pleased you

01:30:56

retired or is there a sense of wishing

01:30:58

you were still there so you could help?

01:30:59

I actually uh what I did was I contacted

01:31:02

the police myself and stated if they

01:31:05

needed any further assistance from an

01:31:08

exe employee that was still active

01:31:10

within forensic science then I'm here to

01:31:12

to help. Uh but I've as I've said before

01:31:15

that the the disaster victim team in New

01:31:17

Zealand is second to none and they will

01:31:19

always be able to manage uh any incident

01:31:22

that's put forward in in their way. So

01:31:24

it was uh it was declined at the time.

01:31:27

Uh but I again I'm always open to

01:31:30

assist. I'm I'm actually I'm I'm part of

01:31:32

a DVI team anyway. So Blakes

01:31:34

International uh if there's a a big

01:31:37

incident around the world then uh I

01:31:39

could get called up at any time to to uh

01:31:41

be part of that team

01:31:43

>> uh of Blake's international disaster

01:31:45

team.

01:31:46

>> Oh, how good.

01:31:48

>> How good.

01:31:48

>> Yeah. I mean you got so much experience.

01:31:50

It's it's a shame if it's just like a

01:31:52

steep drop off the

01:31:54

intel goes to waste

01:31:55

>> and I'm teaching it quite often as well.

01:31:57

So I teach for teach disaster victim

01:31:59

identification uh globally. So uh do

01:32:02

online uh uh teaching

01:32:05

>> uh around the world for that

01:32:07

>> from your career. Is there a single

01:32:09

worst day on the job or a single worst

01:32:11

call out?

01:32:14

>> Uh

01:32:16

a single worst call out. Uh again, the

01:32:20

single worst call out is is

01:32:24

going to those that can can't defend

01:32:27

themselves, knowing that you're going to

01:32:29

go to a a child's death or something

01:32:31

like that. They're they're the worst

01:32:33

ones knowing that you're going to go

01:32:35

into that uh that type of crime scene uh

01:32:38

when somebody that's that vulnerable has

01:32:41

been affected

01:32:42

>> within many of them.

01:32:43

>> I've been to a few. Yes.

01:32:46

I mean, we have to realize that this

01:32:48

that New Zealand is one of the worst,

01:32:50

you know, uh, places in the world for

01:32:52

child deaths, which is unfortunate.

01:32:58

>> What about unsolved cases? How how do

01:33:00

they sit with you?

01:33:01

>> Again, we just move on straight to the

01:33:03

next one. Unsolved cases will always

01:33:05

happen and they happen more on the

01:33:07

volume type crimes. uh very rare in uh

01:33:11

murder investigations because there's a

01:33:12

lot more resources, there's a lot more

01:33:14

manpower that can go into the

01:33:16

investigating that crime. So, you know,

01:33:18

the clear up rate for murder scenes here

01:33:20

and abroad is is extremely high. Uh but

01:33:24

then you go to the more volume type

01:33:25

crime, so the robberies, the the the

01:33:27

burgies, the theft of motor vehicles,

01:33:30

they're always always lots of those

01:33:32

that's going to be unsolved. But you

01:33:34

just you you just do your job to the

01:33:36

best you can, to the best of your

01:33:37

ability. you gather the information

01:33:38

you've got because it could be used in

01:33:40

the future.

01:33:41

>> And we we you do get that. There's a lot

01:33:43

of people out there that go to and

01:33:44

commit these crimes that have not got a

01:33:46

DNA sample, that have not got

01:33:48

fingerprints uh on the record, and they

01:33:50

just carry on doing it thinking that

01:33:52

they're, you know, that they're never

01:33:53

going to be caught and then one day they

01:33:55

will be caught

01:33:56

>> and we can look back at all of those

01:33:58

crimes that they've done before from

01:33:59

some of the evidence that we've

01:34:00

collected and then we can just pile on a

01:34:03

lot more uh charges to that person from

01:34:05

all these unrelsolved

01:34:08

crimes.

01:34:08

>> Yeah. Oh, you Yeah, you raised a good

01:34:10

point. Like you think about the DNA um

01:34:12

developments and changes and

01:34:13

advancements in your career. Like when

01:34:15

you first started, you probably needed

01:34:16

like a liter of someone's saliva.

01:34:18

>> It was really different. It was really

01:34:21

diff different since uh the uh the early

01:34:24

80s before Alec Jeff did the DNA

01:34:28

fingerprinting. We used to have to get a

01:34:31

great big piece of blood just to uh

01:34:33

group it. So the [ __ ] it uh which has

01:34:36

changed so much now. M uh because today

01:34:40

we could actually get there called a DNA

01:34:42

wand. Uh and you could actually walk

01:34:44

around in this room and go back out

01:34:47

again and then your that DNA could be

01:34:50

you could pick up the DNA of people that

01:34:52

have been in this room previously.

01:34:53

>> Unbelievable.

01:34:54

>> Just by walking around with that DNA

01:34:56

wand.

01:34:56

>> Wow.

01:34:57

>> And that is that that is the how

01:34:58

advanced it's gone from just 40 years.

01:35:02

>> It's just the development and it's gone

01:35:04

so much that we we have to be careful

01:35:06

with it. We have to be careful with uh

01:35:08

anything that's advanced and that's

01:35:10

sensitive because what do we have behind

01:35:12

us? An air conditioner.

01:35:13

>> So that could have been introduced from

01:35:15

the outside. So if we get an

01:35:16

identification from a something like

01:35:18

that, then we have to be careful with

01:35:21

how we approach it on the investigating

01:35:23

side because it is that sensitive

01:35:25

because it's not an actual part of it's

01:35:27

not a piece of blood that's physically

01:35:29

in within the crime scene.

01:35:31

>> Crimes are always going to happen, but

01:35:32

do you think it'll get to the point

01:35:33

where it's going to be just impossible

01:35:34

to get away with the crime?

01:35:37

No, I don't think so.

01:35:39

>> Yeah, somebody someone asked me that the

01:35:42

other day. Will AI take over and will

01:35:44

they actually commit, you know, will

01:35:46

they actually find all the corporates in

01:35:47

that? It'll never happen. Uh within the

01:35:51

the like of the like I say within the

01:35:53

serious crime scenes with the

01:35:55

advancement of technology, the the the

01:35:57

you've got less chance of getting away

01:35:59

with it. But again, you've got uh with

01:36:02

the the lesser crimes, there's still the

01:36:04

manpower and the resources that you

01:36:07

can't put everything in to it. If we

01:36:09

did, if we treated everyone every scene

01:36:11

like a murder scene,

01:36:12

>> then yeah, we there would be a lot more

01:36:14

people that would be behind bars or a

01:36:16

lot people more caught. But the reality

01:36:18

is it was it's never going to happen

01:36:20

because you would have such a you know a

01:36:24

long list of people that you would never

01:36:26

get to see

01:36:28

>> when you're it's maybe this is just me

01:36:30

but you I remember the first time my

01:36:32

house got burgled and it was like the

01:36:34

cops were like oh yeah we we send

01:36:35

someone over in a couple of days and

01:36:37

they dusted for some prints and I was

01:36:38

like can you believe it they took two

01:36:39

days I suppose every victim of crime

01:36:41

wants whether it's a car breakin or

01:36:44

whatever you want it to be treated like

01:36:45

a

01:36:46

>> but the thing is we don't want to be

01:36:47

there 2 days later.

01:36:48

>> But that's the reality of it, you know.

01:36:50

And the the the more we leave that crime

01:36:52

scene

01:36:53

>> uh vacant without actually being

01:36:55

examined, the less we're going to

01:36:57

retrieve from it because the own the the

01:36:59

householder wants to clean up. They're

01:37:01

going to put things back to normal. Uh

01:37:03

so it's it's, you know, it's down to the

01:37:05

the the the responding officer first to

01:37:07

try and retrieve some of those items to

01:37:10

to preserve them.

01:37:12

How did um decades of exposure to death

01:37:15

change you as a like a husband or a dad

01:37:17

if at all?

01:37:19

>> It's not changed me as a it's made me

01:37:21

come become more resilient

01:37:23

>> and uh I have a lot more empathy as well

01:37:26

uh as a person uh towards other people.

01:37:30

Uh seeing the worst again what people

01:37:34

can do to other people uh does change

01:37:36

your concept of life. you take every day

01:37:38

as as you can uh as much as you can and

01:37:42

live it as much as you can as well with

01:37:43

your family.

01:37:46

>> Yeah. I suppose it crystallizes just how

01:37:47

precious life is and how quickly it can

01:37:49

be

01:37:49

>> and it could be taken away in an

01:37:51

instant. You know, you don't one minute

01:37:53

you could be just walking down the

01:37:54

street and the next minute a bus is

01:37:55

straight over you.

01:37:56

>> Yeah.

01:37:56

>> It's just simple as that. Life is so so

01:37:59

easily taken away from us. M

01:38:01

>> I don't know if you'll have an answer

01:38:02

for this one, but um and innocent

01:38:04

civilians who discover a a a gruesome

01:38:06

crime scene, how do they recover?

01:38:10

>> Yeah, George, you uh you say that

01:38:13

because my wife is uh not she's not seen

01:38:16

a crime scene, but it was a serious

01:38:18

accident where uh the person was caught

01:38:21

under the the tractor uh that had gone

01:38:24

back on them. not a tractor, it was a

01:38:25

big loading truck and it the the the

01:38:28

brakes failed and it went over the

01:38:29

person and it squashed them completely

01:38:31

and she was one of the first people that

01:38:32

actually seen that and went down there

01:38:35

and uh yeah, so anyone that can see that

01:38:38

sort of graphic injuries to anybody

01:38:40

whether it's an accident or by harm

01:38:44

harmful act uh it's going to affect them

01:38:46

and it affects people differently. Yeah,

01:38:48

>> it it all depends uh you know uh what

01:38:51

they're going through at that time

01:38:53

whether it's emotional or physical. Uh

01:38:56

it can affect pe people differently. We

01:38:58

we know that each one of us are all

01:38:59

different. Uh some people will just

01:39:01

brush it off. You know some people are

01:39:04

just you know quite cold and hard. Some

01:39:07

people are quite sensitive and they they

01:39:09

they'll take it on board and they

01:39:10

they'll take them days and weeks.

01:39:12

Sometimes never get over it. Sometimes

01:39:14

they'll wake up or they'll have that

01:39:16

vivid vivid uh image into their etched

01:39:20

into their brain that they can't get rid

01:39:21

of.

01:39:24

>> Yeah. Some of the stuff that we've

01:39:25

talked about just in this episode like

01:39:27

the uh the decapitated head for example

01:39:29

like I I think if I saw something like

01:39:32

that I think it would change me as a

01:39:33

person.

01:39:34

>> Yes. It just just as a person myself it

01:39:38

just changed me to look on the uh the

01:39:43

good that life has. Mhm.

01:39:44

>> Uh even though I have been through my

01:39:46

ups and downs, you know, and the ups and

01:39:49

downs, you know,

01:39:52

one you know it most of the time it's

01:39:55

you know be have a good optimistic

01:39:57

outlook on life

01:39:58

>> but yeah over over a period of time some

01:40:00

things can dwell upon you and it has you

01:40:02

know and it's not just about the crime

01:40:04

scenes I've been to. It could be

01:40:06

something that uh you know within

01:40:09

personal uh things or work and it all

01:40:12

comes to to together and it's just that

01:40:15

point where you know that there's

01:40:16

something not right within yourself.

01:40:20

>> Yeah. How how did that look for you?

01:40:22

You've sort of um touched upon this a

01:40:24

couple of times in the chat so far about

01:40:26

your own uh mental health struggles.

01:40:28

>> Yeah.

01:40:28

>> Yeah. How did that look? So uh I went

01:40:31

through uh a bout of uh depression about

01:40:34

10 years ago and it was I wouldn't say

01:40:36

severe but it was enough to make me feel

01:40:38

that I wasn't comfortable with myself. I

01:40:42

I the outlook uh wasn't as positive as I

01:40:45

normally was. I felt I felt

01:40:48

disillusioned with everything. I felt

01:40:50

disillusioned with life itself. I I

01:40:52

didn't I didn't I didn't feel like I

01:40:55

didn't want to wake up at times. It was

01:40:58

it was really strange. You know, I do I

01:40:59

felt uncomfortable feeling that way. I

01:41:02

felt uncomfortable

01:41:04

uh not knowing what tomorrow is going to

01:41:06

bring.

01:41:07

>> And uh you know, and it was just a

01:41:11

really strange horrible feeling. And

01:41:13

that's when I did approach Alli and

01:41:15

said, "I'm not this is this isn't not

01:41:17

me." And it wasn't it wasn't an

01:41:19

overnight. It wasn't just a click. It

01:41:20

was just over a period of weeks

01:41:22

>> and it creeps up slowly and slowly. you

01:41:24

don't realize at the beginning and then

01:41:26

until you start, you know, some

01:41:28

something will trigger it and you get

01:41:31

very emotional or you you start having a

01:41:34

go at somebody that you wouldn't do

01:41:35

before

01:41:36

>> and it's, you know, you start thinking,

01:41:38

"Wow, why have I told my daughter off

01:41:41

like that? Why have I just shouted at my

01:41:42

daughter and I'd never do that again

01:41:44

before?" Or you start, you know, you

01:41:47

storm out or you smash something on the

01:41:48

floor and I'm thinking that's not me.

01:41:51

that is somebody else and I don't like

01:41:53

being that person.

01:41:54

>> And that's when I I went to the the to

01:41:56

the the GP and uh yeah he he gave me

01:42:01

some uh what we call magic medication to

01:42:04

to happy pills.

01:42:06

>> Happy pills to to make me resolve myself

01:42:08

and that's how it was for a few I'd say

01:42:11

six months.

01:42:12

>> Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I'm

01:42:14

exactly the same. I can tell if my

01:42:16

mental health isn't isn't where it

01:42:17

should be by say if someone cuts me off

01:42:19

in traffic. Yeah. If my mental health is

01:42:21

where it should be, I can just look in

01:42:22

the rear view and go, "Fuck, that

01:42:23

person's going through some [ __ ] and

01:42:25

laugh and get on with my day." If my

01:42:27

mental health personally isn't where it

01:42:28

should be, that's when I'm like,

01:42:30

>> "What the [ __ ] are they tooting at?" You

01:42:32

know, I I'll get angry and agitated

01:42:34

about it.

01:42:35

>> Yeah, that's just how I felt. Getting

01:42:37

very very agitated and uh

01:42:39

>> about small things.

01:42:40

>> It felt out of control. That was the

01:42:42

main thing. Feeling out of control of

01:42:43

myself uh when I was always fully in

01:42:45

control. uh which was uh yeah that just

01:42:49

didn't feel comfortable with me.

01:42:51

>> This is uh about 10 years ago you say.

01:42:52

Is this about when you left the police?

01:42:54

>> No, it was just be it was about uh I

01:42:57

would say about a year and a half to two

01:42:59

years before the police.

01:43:00

>> Okay.

01:43:01

>> Uh so I started to feel uh feeling not

01:43:03

feeling myself then I came right uh I

01:43:06

stayed with the police for another year

01:43:08

a year and then I thought well 30 years

01:43:10

I've seen my part. I just wanted to to

01:43:13

change my direction and I didn't want to

01:43:15

because there was a lots of things was

01:43:18

you know at that period was happening

01:43:20

there was a lot of work commitments

01:43:21

there was a lot of personal life

01:43:23

commitments and uh I just felt I don't

01:43:25

want to go through that again and I

01:43:26

needed a different change in career

01:43:28

career path uh I don't like I say I did

01:43:31

my 30 years but I still love forensic

01:43:32

science and I just wanted to try

01:43:34

something else

01:43:36

>> jeez and boy you had a career pivot um

01:43:39

motellia in Tatanaki

01:43:40

>> oh I hate I hated it. I couldn't stand

01:43:43

it.

01:43:44

>> Yeah. Worst worst decision I'd ever made

01:43:47

>> after some of the guests left and it

01:43:49

looked like a crime scene.

01:43:50

>> Oh, that's all I treated it as. It was

01:43:51

really horrible. It was a Yeah. My my

01:43:54

wife loved it. But I went into there and

01:43:56

I was still treating them as a crime

01:43:58

scene. You know, there was uh you know,

01:44:00

[ __ ] on the on the on the bedding and I

01:44:02

was examining it. There was blood in the

01:44:04

toilet area and I was thinking, "How did

01:44:06

it get there? Let me look at the blood

01:44:07

spatter. Where did it come from? Oh

01:44:09

yeah, it must have been over there." And

01:44:10

I was looking at I even entered the

01:44:12

septic tank because we was uh rural and

01:44:15

I was looking for things in the septic

01:44:17

tank that shouldn't have been there and

01:44:19

trying to describe to myself how did

01:44:21

they get there and what was the reason

01:44:22

for it and where did they come from and

01:44:24

how could I put it back to that person.

01:44:26

It was so strange and I treated it all

01:44:28

as a crime scene. I just thought no I

01:44:29

can't do this anymore. I just don't like

01:44:31

it.

01:44:32

>> Was what Yeah. What was it? Was it too

01:44:34

too slower pace of life after the 30

01:44:37

years before that? Yeah. I still had

01:44:39

that because I was consulting uh in

01:44:41

forensic science. Uh that was uh just

01:44:44

starting it took it took few uh you know

01:44:47

a good year for people to start

01:44:49

recognizing what I was doing and I just

01:44:52

wanted to carry on with that. I had this

01:44:54

urge inside me that I for what I've seen

01:44:57

and what I've been through for the last

01:44:59

30 years. I want to teach others

01:45:03

uh you know the background of you know

01:45:07

what I've been doing and to teach them

01:45:09

forensic science. I I had this burning

01:45:11

ambition because I was teaching in the

01:45:12

police as well the the you know junior

01:45:14

staff members and junior police officers

01:45:16

uh forensic science. Uh I just wanted to

01:45:19

do that to the public as well. And

01:45:21

that's when I it was like Alec Jeff. I

01:45:23

had that eureka idea of forming forensic

01:45:26

insight.

01:45:27

>> Yeah.

01:45:28

>> Which is what you're doing now.

01:45:29

>> It is. Yes.

01:45:30

>> So we we we deal with uh three avenues

01:45:33

uh in forensics. Uh we do forensic

01:45:36

science training for uh going around

01:45:38

schools. Uh we also do forensic

01:45:40

consultation for the courts of New

01:45:42

Zealand. for defense uh barristers to to

01:45:45

ensure that everything's

01:45:48

you know all the processes and protocols

01:45:49

are complete from uh the police side or

01:45:52

anyone that's given evidence from the

01:45:54

prosecutor

01:45:55

>> and also we take fingerprints for

01:45:57

immigration for uh for police clearance

01:45:59

checks around the world which has become

01:46:01

really successful for us.

01:46:04

>> Does it does that give you enough um

01:46:05

excitement? Does it scratch the itch?

01:46:08

I always have that urge and I still do

01:46:12

to this day that I uh I always have this

01:46:14

urge that I want to go back to a crime

01:46:16

scene examination and I've had the

01:46:18

opportunity a couple of times to to go

01:46:20

back uh uh into uh uh crime scene

01:46:24

examination whether it's here or

01:46:26

Australia but there's just something

01:46:28

saying no do I really want to go through

01:46:30

all of that again I've done like I say

01:46:32

30 years of that do I really want to put

01:46:34

my mind set trying to set my mind again

01:46:37

from you know dealing with life people

01:46:40

the students and you know the people out

01:46:43

there

01:46:43

>> or do I want to go back to death again

01:46:45

so the live people always win

01:46:48

>> and that's why I said that you know I've

01:46:50

had that urge to go back like I say with

01:46:52

the the mosque shooting I put my name

01:46:54

forward because uh you know I'd love to

01:46:57

assist them at that to give them my

01:46:59

experience and expertise

01:47:01

>> uh but yeah just I don't think it'll

01:47:03

ever happen again.

01:47:04

>> N don't do it. Look, look, the man

01:47:06

sitting in front of me today, he looks

01:47:07

happy, healthy, relaxed. He's wearing a

01:47:09

Hawaiian shirt for God's sake. Don't do

01:47:11

it to yourself. This is your time in the

01:47:14

sun. Um, yeah. So, you dealt with um

01:47:18

your own mental health struggles and

01:47:19

then um you address this in the book and

01:47:22

uh May 2022, you lost a nephew uh to

01:47:25

suicide.

01:47:26

>> Yes.

01:47:27

>> Is there any way your career could

01:47:29

prepare you for something like this?

01:47:30

>> Never. It was one of the most traumatic

01:47:33

events of my life. It was that. Sorry, I

01:47:35

get emotional one day.

01:47:36

>> Yeah.

01:47:37

>> Uh,

01:47:42

the phone call,

01:47:45

sorry. The phone call from my brother

01:47:48

was

01:47:50

the worst I've ever had. Him just

01:47:53

telling me that, you know, my nephew

01:47:56

that I'd seen, it was only a year before

01:47:59

>> cuz I, you know, I don't go over there

01:48:01

that often. and to say, "Tom, Tommy's

01:48:04

gone." And I'm say, "Who's gone?" "He's

01:48:06

gone." "My son, he's gone."

01:48:09

And I said, "What are you talking about?

01:48:11

Is he left again or is he gone to do

01:48:13

something silly?" "No, no, he's dead."

01:48:15

And I say, "Why? Why is he what? What?

01:48:17

What do you mean he's dead? Stop taking

01:48:18

a piss. He's not dead." And then he just

01:48:20

breaks down. He says, you know, he he's

01:48:22

taken his own life. And I found him.

01:48:26

And I just didn't know what to do.

01:48:28

So what all big brothers do, I just went

01:48:31

uh back to England and just to be with

01:48:34

him. But the worst part was well, I

01:48:37

wouldn't say the worst part, he just my

01:48:39

brother was

01:48:41

still couldn't fathom out how

01:48:44

uh how he died, but even worse, whether

01:48:47

he'd actually gone through any pain uh

01:48:50

through his death. and he was kept

01:48:53

insisting that I I I I needed to go to

01:48:56

the house to see exactly where he died

01:48:59

uh because everything was still there

01:49:00

because I'd uh that just taken the the

01:49:02

deceased away because it was uh my

01:49:05

nephew's house. It was all left in situ.

01:49:07

Nobody went back in it afterwards.

01:49:09

>> Oh, so he wanted you then um to to

01:49:11

inspect the house not as an uncle but as

01:49:13

a forensic strike. Okay. Okay.

01:49:14

>> So, as a as a brother and as a forensic

01:49:17

chap to reassess the crime scene to see

01:49:20

exactly if uh he had gone through any

01:49:22

pain.

01:49:23

>> And that was the worst crime scene I've

01:49:25

ever ever attended. And it wasn't a

01:49:27

crime scene, but it was a you know, it

01:49:29

was a it was going in there and seeing

01:49:32

my brother break down and put his arms

01:49:35

around me when I said he would have gone

01:49:38

quickly.

01:49:39

>> Just that. But just just see my brother

01:49:43

going through that mental breakdown, you

01:49:45

know, and he's still obviously he's not,

01:49:47

but he's still going through really

01:49:49

traumatic events now because it was his

01:49:51

only son.

01:49:52

>> I don't know how you can never recover

01:49:54

from that.

01:49:54

>> You can't

01:49:55

>> you never recover, you know, until it

01:49:57

goes and there's a lot of people out

01:49:59

there that it's, you know, it's affected

01:50:02

gone through the same thing again. But

01:50:04

unless it goes through your own family

01:50:06

and you've personally been there to

01:50:07

witness it,

01:50:09

>> it's nothing I would ever ever wish on

01:50:11

any other person in this world.

01:50:13

>> It is so traumatic and so traumatizing

01:50:16

to go through that. And I'm sorry I got

01:50:18

emotional. That's one of the first times

01:50:20

I've uh

01:50:21

>> ever got emotional with it.

01:50:22

>> It shows you care.

01:50:25

>> Who was Joseph?

01:50:28

>> He was a kind, gentle soul, which they

01:50:31

normally always are, aren't they? Yeah.

01:50:33

>> Uh he was the person that you could

01:50:36

always rely on to be there for a laugh,

01:50:39

to be there as a person, but he

01:50:41

obviously had his own demons. He

01:50:43

couldn't he didn't he didn't like who he

01:50:44

was, but he liked everyone else to be

01:50:47

with him and he liked to tell them that

01:50:48

they were good and, you know, solve

01:50:50

their problems, but he couldn't solve

01:50:51

his own problems. He was a young chap in

01:50:53

a horrible world at the time for him. Uh

01:50:56

but he was just a wonderful, wonderful

01:50:59

chap and I had so much time for him and

01:51:01

that's why it was so devastating.

01:51:03

>> How old was he?

01:51:04

>> He was uh 27

01:51:07

years old.

01:51:10

>> So yeah, it wasn't he wasn't a young

01:51:12

chap, but he wasn't an old chap.

01:51:13

>> Uh but my my brother and him uh were so

01:51:18

close.

01:51:18

>> Yeah.

01:51:19

>> And that my brother blamed himself. My

01:51:21

brother blamed himself because he said

01:51:23

he got a call because he's he was been

01:51:26

dep he was depressed for a good year.

01:51:29

>> Yeah.

01:51:29

>> Uh and my brother got a call the night

01:51:31

before and he said and he he'd had many

01:51:33

of these calls and he said, "Dad, I'm

01:51:35

not well. I'm going to I don't think I'm

01:51:37

going to make it tonight." And my dad So

01:51:39

my brother just went, "Yeah, yeah,

01:51:41

you'll be fine. You'll be fine."

01:51:44

And that's what that that was my

01:51:45

brother's biggest regret was he didn't

01:51:47

actually go to him that night time.

01:51:49

>> And he still says it to this day that he

01:51:51

could have saved him if he'd have gone

01:51:53

there. And I keep saying to him, "No,

01:51:55

it's just it's if it wouldn't have been

01:51:56

that night, it could have been another."

01:51:58

But he still takes that on board. That's

01:51:59

still on his shoulders that he didn't go

01:52:02

round to him that night time.

01:52:03

>> Oh, it's unfair to live with that level

01:52:06

of guilt.

01:52:06

>> Yeah. And then he, you know, they he

01:52:08

called him the next day because he

01:52:10

actually did feel bad. And then that's

01:52:12

when he kicked the door in and went

01:52:13

upstairs and then found him himself.

01:52:18

>> How do you sleep at night?

01:52:21

>> Uh

01:52:24

on and off some some a lot most of the

01:52:27

time quite soundly.

01:52:29

Uh but you do have your bad days, you do

01:52:31

have your good days, but most of the

01:52:32

time I I see I sleep quite soundly. Like

01:52:34

I said touched on before, some some

01:52:36

sometimes when you've been to a really

01:52:37

vivid uh horrible uh uh murder scene,

01:52:41

you that that will be the last image you

01:52:43

actually go to sleep with, but I'm one

01:52:45

of these people that can sleep quite

01:52:47

soundly. Uh yeah, I don't have any

01:52:50

serious problems myself doing that way.

01:52:52

>> Do you have any regrets?

01:52:54

>> No.

01:52:54

>> No,

01:52:54

>> never have any regrets. The only regret

01:52:57

I uh ever have is that uh I can't do it

01:53:01

forever.

01:53:03

Oh, that's a great attitude. What does

01:53:05

what does a good life or a good day look

01:53:07

for you right now?

01:53:08

>> A good day for me right now is uh being

01:53:12

able to go to work without any hassle

01:53:15

from uh outside uh influences. So, it's

01:53:19

like a roller coaster ride at the

01:53:20

moment. You know, you have your good

01:53:21

days and your bad days.

01:53:22

For me, going to uh uh work uh doing a

01:53:27

good day's job and making somebody uh

01:53:29

happy because even taking someone's

01:53:31

fingerprints, it's quite traumatic for

01:53:33

them because they're going through a

01:53:34

traumatic part. We just try and make

01:53:36

that as easy as possible. And when you

01:53:37

see the smile on their face and they

01:53:40

say, "Wow, that was really cool of you."

01:53:41

Thank you so much and assisted them

01:53:43

getting their clearance check for

01:53:44

immigration.

01:53:45

>> Just seeing that smile smile on their

01:53:46

face is great for me.

01:53:48

>> Yeah.

01:53:49

If everything stopped tomorrow, what

01:53:51

would you be most grateful for?

01:53:53

>> Alli and my wife uh my daughter.

01:53:56

>> They're the two rocks in the whole of my

01:53:58

life. Without them, I'm nothing.

01:54:06

>> I think that's a great place to end it.

01:54:08

>> Yeah, it's touching.

01:54:10

>> Thank you.

01:54:11

>> Um, hey, the book is great.

01:54:13

>> It's It won't be for everyone.

01:54:15

>> No, it won't be for everyone. That's the

01:54:16

thing. Uh, it's not it's not for the

01:54:18

faint-hearted, but for those that are

01:54:20

intrigued in forensic science and seeing

01:54:22

how it's actually really used within a

01:54:25

crime scene. Forget the forget the the

01:54:27

the horror and the gore that goes with

01:54:29

it. Look at how we actually change uh or

01:54:34

how we actually uh assist with the

01:54:37

investigation part.

01:54:38

>> And there's some funny parts in there as

01:54:40

well.

01:54:40

>> Yeah. Lots of lots of bleak dark humor.

01:54:43

>> Yes. Lots of bleak dark humor.

01:54:44

>> I'm just pleased. Oh, you're in your 50s

01:54:45

as well. You you remember this. I'm just

01:54:47

pleased it's not a a scratch and sniff

01:54:49

book.

01:54:49

>> Oh my goodness. When they first when

01:54:51

they came out, it was like you still get

01:54:54

them sometimes. You going to you go into

01:54:55

the warehouse and you can see them on

01:54:56

there. You go, "Oh my, if id have put

01:54:58

some of those on that pages, I would

01:55:00

have loved to have put the smell of

01:55:02

death on one of those pages. That would

01:55:04

have been perfect.

01:55:05

>> Smells like lightly cooked vomit and

01:55:07

diarrhea."

01:55:08

>> Hey, uh Tom Thomas Coyle, thank you so

01:55:11

much for being a guest on my podcast.

01:55:13

>> Thank you so much for inviting me. It's

01:55:14

been a real pleasure. Thank you.

In this gripping episode of the Domavvey podcast, forensic scientist Tom Coyle takes listeners on a harrowing journey through his three-decade career, where he has worked on over 20,000 crime scenes. Coyle shares his experiences with a candidness that is both unsettling and enlightening, discussing the emotional toll of witnessing the aftermath of violent crimes and natural disasters. He opens up about the challenges of compartmentalizing his emotions while on the job, revealing the haunting images that linger long after the crime scene tape is taken down.

Listeners are drawn into Coyle's world as he recounts his work during the devastating Christchurch earthquakes and the aftermath of the Boxing Day tsunami. His disdain for crime dramas like CSI is palpable, as he contrasts the glamorized portrayals of forensic work with the gritty reality he faces daily. The episode is not just about the technical aspects of forensic science; it delves deep into the human experience, exploring themes of grief, resilience, and the complex nature of life and death.

Coyle's reflections on personal loss, including the tragic suicide of his nephew, add a poignant layer to the conversation. His insights into mental health and the importance of seeking help resonate deeply, making this episode a powerful exploration of the human condition in the face of trauma. With humor interspersed throughout, Coyle manages to lighten the heavy topics, reminding us of the importance of laughter even in the darkest of times.

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Episode Highlights

The Dead Speak
Forensic scientist Tom Coyle discusses his new book and the realities of crime scenes.
“It's a privilege to be here.”
@ 00m 54s
February 11, 2026
Emotional Detachment
Tom Coyle explains the necessity of emotional detachment while working at crime scenes.
“If you start crying at that crime scene, your job's over.”
@ 12m 30s
February 11, 2026
Using Humor to Cope
Humor became a shield against bullying during childhood.
“I made people laugh, especially the bullies.”
@ 22m 53s
February 11, 2026
The Impact of Grief
Losing a best friend to violence at a young age brought profound grief.
“I was 18 at the time.”
@ 33m 56s
February 11, 2026
Coping Mechanisms in Law Enforcement
Discussing the reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism among police officers.
“Everyone at New Scotland Yard lent into alcohol then.”
@ 43m 24s
February 11, 2026
The Stench of Death
A haunting description of the smell of death that lingers in a mortuary.
“It’s that smell of disinfectant and death all at the same time.”
@ 52m 57s
February 11, 2026
Disaster Victim Identification
An insight into the overwhelming task of identifying victims after a disaster.
“Always apprehensive. It’s the unknown.”
@ 01h 05m 25s
February 11, 2026
A Moment of Clarity
Eating lobster during a disaster recovery leads to a profound realization.
“Do you know where that lobster’s been?”
@ 01h 11m 50s
February 11, 2026
The Importance of Openness
Talking to a therapist becomes a transformative experience over time.
“Just being open to somebody is a good thing.”
@ 01h 19m 08s
February 11, 2026
Reflections on Christchurch
The Christchurch tragedy hit hard, reminding me of the fragility of life.
“I really could have been talking to you a couple of weeks ago.”
@ 01h 29m 40s
February 11, 2026
Mental Health Struggles
Discussing the impact of mental health on personal life and relationships.
“It felt out of control of myself.”
@ 01h 42m 43s
February 11, 2026
Trauma of Loss
The speaker recounts the traumatic phone call about his nephew's suicide.
“The worst phone call I’ve ever had.”
@ 01h 47m 45s
February 11, 2026

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Therapeutic Writing03:52
Emotional Detachment12:30
Humor as Defense22:53
Childhood Trauma26:25
Coping with Trauma43:21
Smell of Death53:50
Finding Clarity1:19:08
Family Matters1:54:06

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown