00:00:00
3:00 in the morning, the cell door slams
00:00:02
open. Pull down your jocks and squats in
00:00:05
front of another man.
00:00:06
>> Who is Baris Sha?
00:00:07
>> I changed my name after coming out of
00:00:08
prison.
00:00:09
>> Most painful memories, the abuse that I
00:00:11
faced as a child. I wasn't able to tell
00:00:12
anybody. Started off us getting called
00:00:15
in a school bush with the cross. We
00:00:17
decided that we were going to rob a
00:00:19
dairy.
00:00:19
>> Do you tell your parents the day before
00:00:21
I go to prison? The first time I saw him
00:00:23
tearing up absolute lowest. I really
00:00:25
felt like I was going to two young
00:00:26
people who I had the privilege of
00:00:28
mentoring taken away just like that.
00:00:32
>> Sha, welcome to my podcast. Good to be
00:00:34
here, Dom,
00:00:34
>> mate. It's great to have you here. You
00:00:36
reached out to me a few weeks ago and um
00:00:37
invited yourself on and I I have to say,
00:00:40
full transparency, I I didn't know who
00:00:42
you were. I hadn't heard of you. I
00:00:44
looked you up and I thought, "Oh, yeah.
00:00:45
This guy's on for sure."
00:00:47
>> Look, I've learned that you got to
00:00:48
market yourself. You know what I mean?
00:00:49
Like, if you want to have conversations
00:00:51
with the right people, just reach out.
00:00:52
>> And I met you. We didn't actually have a
00:00:55
conversation, but in James's high
00:00:58
performance leadership um conference.
00:01:00
>> Yeah. James Lachland, previous podcast
00:01:02
guest.
00:01:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. And previous to that, I
00:01:03
didn't actually know you as well, but
00:01:05
when you came on and you spoke, I really
00:01:07
felt the authenticity in you, the way
00:01:09
you carried yourself. So, I was like, it
00:01:10
would be pretty cool to have a
00:01:11
conversation with you. And because I'm
00:01:12
visiting Oakland, so it is what it is
00:01:14
now. We're here.
00:01:15
>> I appreciate you reaching out. I think
00:01:17
this is going to be a fun chat. Um
00:01:19
there's there's a lot that you've been
00:01:20
through and a lot of lessons that um
00:01:22
other people can use for their own
00:01:23
lives.
00:01:24
>> First of all, who is Baris Sha?
00:01:26
>> Baris Sha actually is um Taib Sha.
00:01:30
That's actually my maiden name. I
00:01:32
changed my name after coming out of
00:01:34
prison. So at the moment, who am I? I am
00:01:37
a Muslim that is wanting to live a life
00:01:41
with intention and with purpose and be
00:01:44
the most impactful person that I can be.
00:01:47
That's who worries us.
00:01:49
>> Well, I think the results um speak for
00:01:50
themselves. You are doing that. Um you
00:01:52
you were named the 2021 Muslim New
00:01:55
Zealander of the year.
00:01:56
>> Yeah.
00:01:56
>> Um some other things about you. Yeah.
00:01:58
You you're a married man with two sons.
00:02:00
Uh your wife Sabah. This was sort of
00:02:03
like an arranged marriage, right? You
00:02:04
said to your mom, "I'm ready to get
00:02:06
married."
00:02:07
>> She picked up the phone.
00:02:08
>> It can seem arranged, but you know, I
00:02:11
really just wanted somebody that I could
00:02:13
be compatible with, right? And my mom
00:02:15
knows me the best. So I was like, "Look,
00:02:17
do you have anybody in mind that I could
00:02:19
speak to and see if we can make things
00:02:21
work?" And my mom was like, "You know
00:02:22
what? How about Sabah?" We had a
00:02:24
conversation for about 4 months and it
00:02:26
was very like,
00:02:27
>> "Did you know her? Had you had you meet
00:02:29
her?"
00:02:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Previously in my
00:02:31
sister's wedding when I went back to um
00:02:33
Pakistan, but our conversation was very
00:02:35
restrictive like you know because we
00:02:38
didn't want to break the Islamic
00:02:39
boundaries. Um, so it was just like
00:02:41
literally what do you see for your uh
00:02:44
your life, your future? Um, what kind of
00:02:47
a family do you want to raise? That type
00:02:48
of dynamic. And uh, we saw that on the
00:02:51
whole we aligned really well. So like,
00:02:54
you know what, let's do it.
00:02:55
>> And it's been the one of the best
00:02:57
decisions I ever made if I'm being
00:02:58
honest.
00:03:00
>> Was she was Sabah reluctant to enter in
00:03:03
a relationship with you knowing about
00:03:04
your bad boy past?
00:03:07
>> I had to be full transparent. So I told
00:03:09
her actually on my on my phone first
00:03:11
phone call I was like look this is how
00:03:12
it is. This is where I'm wanting to go.
00:03:16
Do you want to be on this journey with
00:03:17
me? And she appreciated the honesty.
00:03:19
Usually if people are getting married
00:03:21
and Afghanistan they they leave all the
00:03:22
bad stuff out you know. Um but she
00:03:25
actually also made me a promise that we
00:03:27
wouldn't stay in New Zealand forever.
00:03:30
She was like yes I'll come to New
00:03:31
Zealand but we can't stay in New Zealand
00:03:33
forever. Let's go. Let's keep traveling.
00:03:35
So, um, I made that agreement and, uh,
00:03:38
we got married in 2017. It was crazy.
00:03:40
>> Fantastic.
00:03:41
>> I'm 21 years old.
00:03:43
>> You were just ready though.
00:03:44
>> Yeah, I was ready. I knew I knew it. I
00:03:46
was just finished my first year of uni.
00:03:48
And it's crazy to people because in uni
00:03:50
when you finish your first year, you
00:03:52
know, you're meant to have fun and go
00:03:53
out and get drunk and do everything.
00:03:55
>> But for me, because I had already gone
00:03:57
through that and then went to prison and
00:03:59
come out, I was in a complete different
00:04:00
state of mind at the age of 21. So, got
00:04:04
married and um yeah, man, life's been
00:04:06
great.
00:04:07
>> Yeah. How how the man sitting in front
00:04:09
of me today, how close is he to being
00:04:11
the best version of himself?
00:04:15
>> Look, I'm I'm hard on myself. I'm never
00:04:17
satisfied and there's so much things
00:04:19
that I can improve on. But the one thing
00:04:21
that I do appreciate about myself is
00:04:23
that I'm trying and I'm intentional in
00:04:26
my efforts. uh if I do something wrong
00:04:29
that I'm not happy with, I internalize
00:04:31
it and say, "Look, I I shouldn't be
00:04:33
doing that." So that I'm happy with
00:04:34
that. And I discovered that in prison
00:04:37
that being intentional with things. I
00:04:39
didn't have it previously. I was just
00:04:40
going through life just,
00:04:43
you know, letting life just happen to me
00:04:45
without really being intentional. So
00:04:48
>> it's it's good to have that awareness,
00:04:50
you know.
00:04:51
>> Yeah. I think I think a lot of people
00:04:53
just go through life like that. Let
00:04:55
Yeah. the the way you phrased it just
00:04:56
before letting life happen to them. I
00:04:57
think a lot of people just live live
00:04:59
their life like that.
00:04:59
>> Yeah. And it's tough, man. It's tough
00:05:01
because life is hard. And if you just
00:05:03
let it happen to you, you're going to
00:05:05
struggle, man. You're going to struggle.
00:05:07
And I was struggling before going to
00:05:08
prison um like just really down in the
00:05:12
dumps. And um coming out, it feels like
00:05:16
I'm a complete different person. That's
00:05:17
why I changed my name.
00:05:18
>> Um I adopted Barz. And um yeah, man. M
00:05:24
>> yeah you've mentioned prison um maybe
00:05:26
three, four, five times already and it
00:05:28
is it is um part of your story and uh we
00:05:31
will get into that but yeah we're
00:05:33
recording this in November 2025 so it
00:05:35
was probably close to this time 10 years
00:05:38
ago that you were just getting released.
00:05:40
>> Yeah. Yeah, man.
00:05:41
>> Do you remember the date?
00:05:42
>> Yeah, 100%. 10th 10th of uh June 2025 uh
00:05:47
2015 I was released,
00:05:48
>> right?
00:05:49
>> And came out came out into the world
00:05:54
wondering if I was ever going to redeem
00:05:55
myself, you know, because society
00:05:59
doesn't really accept people that go to
00:06:01
prison. They don't. I know people say,
00:06:04
"Oh, no. Society gives you a fair chance
00:06:06
this and that." But on the whole,
00:06:08
society does not accept people that have
00:06:09
been to prison. That
00:06:13
stain that they have on them can never
00:06:15
be taken away.
00:06:18
>> That's the current law that we have.
00:06:20
>> Just like in in terms of judgment.
00:06:22
>> Yeah. In terms of the law as well, like
00:06:23
you can never have your record cleared.
00:06:25
If you've been to prison as a young
00:06:27
person at the age of 18, let's say you
00:06:29
go into prison, your first time in
00:06:30
prison, you come out, you've changed
00:06:32
yourself. Society will never accept you.
00:06:34
You can never have your record cleared.
00:06:36
You have to declare it every time. M
00:06:39
>> and I think that's a huge problem in our
00:06:40
society right now.
00:06:42
>> Um I actually didn't know that though. I
00:06:44
was told by a officer that if you come
00:06:46
out of prison and you prove yourself in
00:06:49
7 years time you can have your record
00:06:51
cleared. So I came out of prison with
00:06:53
that hope like okay I'm going to I'm
00:06:55
going to prove myself and I'm going to
00:06:56
get my record cleared. But that's
00:06:58
actually not the case.
00:06:59
>> Does your past still hold you back or
00:07:02
>> for me? special case because I came out
00:07:06
of prison, went back into uni, I was did
00:07:08
my foundation engineering course, um
00:07:11
went into university and in university
00:07:13
because they take your money because
00:07:15
they take your money, they don't care
00:07:16
about your path, right? Um it's not like
00:07:18
they're giving you a job. So I went into
00:07:20
uni, spent a couple of years and while I
00:07:22
was at uni, I was like proving myself,
00:07:25
you know, I was doing community work,
00:07:27
getting involved and then March 15
00:07:28
happened which was a pivotal moment in
00:07:30
my life. So, I was able to kind of like
00:07:32
make a brand for myself. So, when I'm
00:07:34
applying in jobs now, it's a I think
00:07:38
it's easier for me compared to somebody
00:07:39
else who hasn't gone through that
00:07:42
experience and they're just trying to
00:07:44
get a job.
00:07:45
>> 100% it's not going to be easy for them.
00:07:49
>> Yeah. Also, I think there's probably
00:07:50
enough daylight now. Like, it's been 10
00:07:52
years since you were released. Um, so
00:07:54
you did your time and you've done so
00:07:55
much good stuff since then.
00:07:57
>> Yeah. But the crazy thing is, right,
00:07:59
like you would think that that people
00:08:00
will be accepting me and my wife, we we
00:08:03
travel to Australia.
00:08:05
>> I have my two kids with me. Okay,
00:08:09
I have my book. I've written a book.
00:08:10
I've got my book with me
00:08:12
>> and I'm like going and I'm going to see
00:08:14
the immigration officer and I'm going to
00:08:17
say, "Look, I've changed. Can I get into
00:08:18
Australia now?" I was going with that
00:08:20
hope.
00:08:22
They took my two kids and my wife aside,
00:08:24
gave them entry, took me to the back
00:08:26
room,
00:08:28
told me, "You've checked, yes, you have
00:08:30
a criminal conviction on the form. We're
00:08:32
going to send you back on the first
00:08:33
flight back." And I was like, "Look,
00:08:34
like I've changed so much." I started
00:08:36
stating everything.
00:08:38
>> They didn't want to hear it, man. It was
00:08:40
like, "This is the system. We're just
00:08:42
following the system. We don't care what
00:08:43
you've done. We don't care if you've
00:08:44
proven yourself or not." And I think
00:08:46
that's one of the biggest problems that
00:08:48
we have in our society. It's like we
00:08:50
follow systems to the tea and we don't
00:08:54
look like wait has can we look at things
00:08:57
a little bit differently
00:09:00
and we're seeing like crime rising and
00:09:02
people complaining about crime and the
00:09:04
amount of money the government spends on
00:09:06
trying to prevent crime but yet we don't
00:09:10
give people hope
00:09:12
>> and we expecting them to change their
00:09:14
life around. So,
00:09:16
I'm trying to actually tackle that with
00:09:18
my wife where our second project is
00:09:20
going to be creating a documentary film
00:09:22
that will go into the lives of people
00:09:24
who have been affected by the justice
00:09:26
system
00:09:26
>> and how not having hope where that leads
00:09:29
to, you know, how much impact it's going
00:09:32
to have in society and so on.
00:09:34
>> That incident there that you talked
00:09:35
about just a second ago with um
00:09:36
Australian immigration, what happened?
00:09:38
Did did you come home and your family
00:09:40
traveled on?
00:09:41
>> Yeah, man. My my kids went into the, you
00:09:44
know, terminal. My son was crying. I was
00:09:46
in the back room. I video called them
00:09:48
and said, "Look, dad's going away. He's
00:09:50
going to come back." It was tough, man.
00:09:52
My wife, it's difficult for her as well.
00:09:55
Um, I don't think I'll be able to go
00:09:57
back into Australia
00:09:59
and just because I ticked yes on a on a
00:10:02
form,
00:10:03
>> like every other condition they say for
00:10:05
good character, I met, but because of
00:10:07
that one box, that one tick box, I
00:10:10
couldn't tick. Mhm.
00:10:10
>> They're like, "No."
00:10:12
>> Well, what other countries do you
00:10:13
struggle to travel to?
00:10:15
>> Australia was the first one.
00:10:16
>> Okay.
00:10:17
>> Um I don't think I'll have problem any
00:10:19
of the Middle Eastern countries, but
00:10:21
like like Canada and and America and UK
00:10:23
probably the same cuz they're all
00:10:24
sharing their information.
00:10:26
>> Yeah.
00:10:27
>> Well, it's a hell of a story. Um so
00:10:29
we'll build into it, but I I think we
00:10:30
should first go back to the beginning.
00:10:32
So um from what I can gather there's
00:10:33
mixed information online but you're born
00:10:35
in Afghanistan
00:10:36
>> moved to fled to Pakistan
00:10:38
>> uh then moved to New Zealand at 9.
00:10:40
>> Yeah.
00:10:42
>> What are your happiest and most painful
00:10:44
memories of the early years
00:10:46
>> of Pakistan?
00:10:47
>> Pak Afghanistan Pakistan.
00:10:50
>> Um
00:10:53
Pakistan were there as refugees right?
00:10:56
Um,
00:10:57
and as refugees in Pakistan, you were
00:11:00
never given identity. Like you could not
00:11:04
uh have a passport ever. And so knowing
00:11:07
that as a young person and and my family
00:11:09
knowing that we knew we didn't have a
00:11:11
future there.
00:11:13
Um,
00:11:14
we would often get into fights with the
00:11:16
the Pakistani kids because they would
00:11:18
keep calling us refugees, refugees. Um,
00:11:21
my brother and I would get into a lot of
00:11:23
fights. And probably the most distinct
00:11:26
memory of my childhood would have to be
00:11:29
the abuse that I faced as a child. That
00:11:31
would probably trump everything else.
00:11:34
Um, that's what I remember from
00:11:37
Pakistan. Yeah.
00:11:39
>> Oh, sorry you experienced that.
00:11:41
>> That's all good, man. I've I've I've uh
00:11:43
I've moved past it. I've
00:11:45
>> Yeah.
00:11:46
>> I've um
00:11:48
>> I've moved past it. Yeah.
00:11:50
>> Yeah.
00:11:50
>> How did you move past it? Is it therapy
00:11:52
or
00:11:53
>> No. No, I've never done therapy. just
00:11:56
forgiveness because the thing is the and
00:12:00
again this was in prison and after
00:12:01
coming out of prison and having a child
00:12:04
I was expecting forgiveness from others
00:12:06
right like I had done wrong to other
00:12:08
people like I had done
00:12:10
>> wrong that others don't even know about
00:12:12
and I was wanting forgiveness from them
00:12:15
from God and I was like if I'm asking
00:12:17
for forgiveness from others like how can
00:12:19
I not forgive myself
00:12:21
so I forgave my abuser Um,
00:12:25
and it's a crazy story. I went back to
00:12:27
Afghanistan and it's in the book as
00:12:29
well. I talk about it, but ultimately I
00:12:31
I forgave. And when you forgive, you let
00:12:35
go and the weight is off your shoulders.
00:12:38
>> Um, so I can happily say that I don't
00:12:40
carry that anymore. In the past before
00:12:42
forgiveness,
00:12:43
>> I used to think about the abuse like
00:12:45
multiple times a week.
00:12:47
>> You know, people would say things and it
00:12:48
would trigger. People would say things.
00:12:49
But once I forgave and I let go,
00:12:52
alhamdulillah, it's all good.
00:12:56
>> It's a lot. It's a lot to deal with,
00:12:57
bro, bro. I mean, it's with with with
00:12:59
everything you you went through. Um, uh,
00:13:02
it's easy to see like how you went off
00:13:03
the rails, right? It's easy to
00:13:05
understand.
00:13:06
>> Yeah.
00:13:07
>> I've got this this photo here of you and
00:13:08
your family.
00:13:11
>> Yeah. Where was that? Was that in
00:13:12
Afghanistan?
00:13:13
>> That's in Pakistan. Actually, we went on
00:13:15
like a family road trip.
00:13:16
>> Yeah. So, who where are you? Which one
00:13:18
are you? I'm this handsome one at the
00:13:20
bottom.
00:13:21
>> Best looking one.
00:13:23
>> Yeah. So, when when you see that photo
00:13:25
like how what memories come back? Like
00:13:27
how do you feel?
00:13:29
>> Man, the attachment that I had to my
00:13:30
father that comes um the
00:13:35
the attachment that I had to my mother
00:13:38
and how I didn't want her to leave me
00:13:40
every morning.
00:13:42
Um because she would go off and she
00:13:45
would be working as a humanitarian. She
00:13:47
would help other refugee women and she'd
00:13:50
have to leave me right at the child. As
00:13:52
a child, I didn't understand. So, I
00:13:54
would stay home with my grandma and
00:13:56
because my grandma me and her
00:13:58
relationship wasn't great. I wasn't able
00:13:59
to share with her and she had gone
00:14:01
through difficulties of in life herself.
00:14:05
I would get abused from somebody that
00:14:07
would come to our house from time to
00:14:08
time and I wasn't able to tell anybody,
00:14:10
you know. So that's what I remember like
00:14:12
not being able to voice
00:14:14
>> what was happening to me because of the
00:14:16
lack of trust I felt not only with my
00:14:18
grandma with with my mother and father
00:14:20
as well
00:14:21
>> because I was afraid of you know it
00:14:24
being my fault. Um, and so I carry that
00:14:27
man. And this like I noticed this in
00:14:30
prison so many times
00:14:33
people that that have had these kind of
00:14:35
childhood experiences
00:14:37
and they're trying to figure their life
00:14:39
out and they can't and they end up in
00:14:41
prison and they get stuck in the cycle
00:14:44
and it just goes down rail for them. So
00:14:46
I'm I'm super blessed to be here right
00:14:48
now
00:14:49
>> to have changed myself to have let go of
00:14:51
the victim mindset. Um, honestly like I
00:14:56
I am so grateful man. I'm so grateful
00:14:59
for everything in my life. So grateful.
00:15:03
>> Do you feel more Afghani, Pakistani or
00:15:05
Kiwi right now?
00:15:06
>> That's a really good question. Is it
00:15:09
>> to be honest now? Right now I feel more
00:15:11
New Zealander.
00:15:13
>> I'll be honest. Um, I do have a
00:15:16
connection with New Zealand. It's
00:15:19
difficult because like I go places,
00:15:20
right? And I'm just trying to be QZ.
00:15:23
Like I'm in a cafe. I've got my laptop
00:15:26
on. I've got my headphones
00:15:28
trying to do my work. And this guy next
00:15:30
to me looks at me. He's like, "Hey, man.
00:15:31
Where are you from?" And and when they
00:15:33
ask you, they put on like a almost like
00:15:36
a dumb down English. I'm like, "Why are
00:15:38
you speaking to me like that? Just speak
00:15:40
normal, man." And he's like, "So, where
00:15:43
you from, man?" I'm like, and I know
00:15:46
where the where the question is going to
00:15:47
lead, so I just go straight to the end.
00:15:48
I'm like, I'm from Afghanistan. And he's
00:15:51
like, oh, okay, how long you been here?
00:15:52
And then this the whole chat, but I
00:15:55
don't feel like I'm from Afghanistan.
00:15:57
You know, when I go to Afghanistan, it's
00:15:59
like, yeah, kind of feel similar, but I
00:16:01
don't feel like I'm from there.
00:16:03
>> I would say I'm New Zealander, man.
00:16:04
>> Yeah. Well, most Yeah. Most of your life
00:16:06
has been here, so that's understandable.
00:16:08
>> My identity is attached to here now.
00:16:10
>> Yeah.
00:16:11
>> So, yeah. What are your memories of
00:16:12
moving to New Zealand at 9? Did you
00:16:13
speak any English at that point?
00:16:15
>> I was seven. I I did not speak English.
00:16:17
we were ABCing it at that time. Um I was
00:16:21
in a Pakistani school so I knew how to
00:16:23
speak udu really well
00:16:25
>> and Farsy as well but no I did not know
00:16:28
when I came actually and they put me in
00:16:29
year one with all the with all the kids
00:16:32
>> the 5-year-olds.
00:16:33
>> Yeah, man. And I came and I was like nap
00:16:36
time like they used to do nap time. I
00:16:38
was like yo like like what you can sleep
00:16:41
in class? We used to get the hiding.
00:16:45
You couldn't put your head down on the
00:16:46
table and they're like, "It's nap time
00:16:48
everybody." And obviously with me, I
00:16:50
came in to school and I didn't have
00:16:52
friends and stuff. I'll just when nap
00:16:54
time would be over, I'll just keep keep
00:16:55
napping.
00:16:57
>> It got to a point where they're like,
00:16:58
"Okay, this kid's too big for this
00:16:59
class.
00:17:02
Even if he doesn't know English, let's
00:17:03
just take him to to year two." So So
00:17:05
they changed my class.
00:17:08
>> So you you moved here as a family, but
00:17:09
without your dad. your dad stayed behind
00:17:11
for another four years. So, with that
00:17:14
family photo I showed you before, like
00:17:15
you talked about your attachment to your
00:17:17
dad. So,
00:17:17
>> I'm guessing it must been a strange
00:17:19
feeling because I suppose on on one side
00:17:22
like you you you're moving as far away
00:17:23
as imaginable from your abuser, which is
00:17:26
a great thing. Um, but you're also, you
00:17:28
know, losing your dad for a time.
00:17:30
>> Yeah, it wasn't easy, man. came winter
00:17:32
of New Zealand, August 2021 uh 2020 2001
00:17:38
and uh it was raining, the streets were
00:17:41
empty, there not many people around and
00:17:44
uh it felt really lonely, you know,
00:17:46
initially. So I missed my dad quite a
00:17:48
lot, but as a young person, you get over
00:17:50
it, you know.
00:17:51
>> Um you don't think about it as often. We
00:17:54
would call him every day and then it got
00:17:56
to every week and then it got to once a
00:17:58
month and then we didn't talk much until
00:18:01
he came in 2005.
00:18:03
>> What did you know about New Zealand?
00:18:05
>> Nothing at all. We we actually we
00:18:08
actually thought it was in London. Like
00:18:10
when we're thinking of New Zealand
00:18:11
because we when we when we're over
00:18:13
there, we imagine we means like the
00:18:17
outside or like um yeah, we're thinking
00:18:21
of the west as all being in London. So
00:18:24
when we said we're going to we're like
00:18:26
yo, that's where we're going. And so we
00:18:28
came here, we're a little bit deflated
00:18:29
at the start, but you start to fall in
00:18:32
love with New Zealand and its beauty.
00:18:34
>> Yeah. So you moved here in 2001, the
00:18:36
year of the um 9/11 um Twin Towers,
00:18:40
>> a month before.
00:18:42
>> What did that look like for a young
00:18:43
Muslim boy?
00:18:45
>> Initially, I didn't know much about it
00:18:46
because I was too young to understand,
00:18:48
right? Um it started off us getting
00:18:50
called Osam Bin Laden as school started
00:18:53
to get a little bit harsher and harsher.
00:18:55
My sisters would get um you know, cuz
00:18:58
they wear the headscarf, so they're
00:18:59
visible Muslims, they would get taunted
00:19:01
and stuff. Um, and then it wasn't up
00:19:04
until year 8 when I started becoming
00:19:08
aware of the world and I started seeing
00:19:11
the news and how Afghanistan was being
00:19:14
bombed and drone strike, villages,
00:19:16
innocent people being killed. But on
00:19:19
this side of the world, it was being
00:19:20
framed as
00:19:22
Afghans are the bad people. But when
00:19:25
we're hearing stories from back home,
00:19:27
it's like, wait, people are innocent
00:19:28
people are getting killed. But that
00:19:30
wasn't being told here. So when I was
00:19:32
seeing this almost hypocrisy, I I
00:19:35
started to build up resentment. And I'll
00:19:37
go into the school toilets and I'll tag
00:19:39
like [ __ ] Bush with the crosshairs.
00:19:42
Classic, you know, with the crosshairs.
00:19:44
>> Crosshairs like a gun side.
00:19:47
>> There he is.
00:19:48
>> Oh my god. Like
00:19:50
>> I was year eight, man. So like what,
00:19:52
like 10, maybe 11. Um, and I was doing
00:19:55
that every single uh lunchtime. I was
00:19:58
just trying to vent. Trying to vent. So
00:19:59
at this sort of age, uh, a little bit
00:20:02
older than that, older that little,
00:20:04
yeah, a little kid, slightly bigger than
00:20:06
that, tagging [ __ ] George W. B.
00:20:10
>> Um,
00:20:11
>> and I got caught obviously. I got
00:20:13
raided. My my desk got raided. They
00:20:14
found foul tips and everything
00:20:17
>> and I got suspended.
00:20:19
>> The principal never asked. And again,
00:20:20
this I see this as an issue like we
00:20:22
don't dig deeper. We don't scratch the
00:20:25
surface. We just
00:20:27
because it's easier to just be like,
00:20:29
"Okay, that's how it is." Yep. Put them
00:20:30
into that compartment, you know? They
00:20:33
just suspended me. Didn't ask why a
00:20:34
young person was tagging political,
00:20:37
you know, things on a toilet. Um, so
00:20:42
nobody caught it out. And then I went
00:20:43
into high school. Then you start seeing
00:20:46
skin heads out on the street with like
00:20:49
doing the seek hell sign and trying to
00:20:51
run you over. And then that became our
00:20:53
reality for me and my friends. And it
00:20:55
was like a survival
00:20:57
um game. Like we'd go out into the
00:20:59
streets after school and we'd see these
00:21:01
guys from another college and like axes
00:21:04
would come out and like would get into
00:21:07
fights in different regions and it it
00:21:09
was very um intense, man. It's very
00:21:11
intense.
00:21:13
>> Who who tried to help? Was it like
00:21:15
family, teachers, siblings, mentors? Was
00:21:18
there anyone there on your team?
00:21:20
Like obviously mom was the biggest
00:21:23
person on my team, but because she came
00:21:25
from another culture, she didn't really
00:21:27
understand what we were going through.
00:21:28
Like I couldn't tell her like, "Look,
00:21:30
we're getting chased by skin heads."
00:21:31
She'll be like, "What are you talking
00:21:32
about? What skin hits?" She wouldn't
00:21:34
understand.
00:21:35
>> Um like have the identity issues that I
00:21:39
was having at school, not feeling like I
00:21:42
fit in into the crowd. Um
00:21:45
people didn't really understand it. But
00:21:46
I I went and saw counselors, but they
00:21:48
didn't really get it as well. Um, and I
00:21:50
was also I was also a little bit of a
00:21:53
little [ __ ] you know.
00:21:55
>> Um, thinking that the world revolved
00:21:57
around me and what I was going through
00:21:58
and feeling sad about my story and being
00:22:02
a victim of my situation, that all had
00:22:04
to a part to play in it.
00:22:09
>> So the the so the sort of the racism and
00:22:11
that sort of abuse is like a daily
00:22:13
occurrence.
00:22:14
>> 100%.
00:22:15
>> Yeah. really% it was daily. Yeah.
00:22:17
Especially with that group of people and
00:22:21
would get into fights multiple times. It
00:22:22
get to a got to a point where one of our
00:22:25
friends got severely jumped after school
00:22:28
and then we're like okay enough's
00:22:29
enough. I told one of my friends get the
00:22:32
school uniform for the school that these
00:22:34
people are at and we're going to go into
00:22:36
their school time and go into their
00:22:38
classroom and settle this once and for
00:22:40
all cuz we would never come across each
00:22:42
other properly. Uh, we got the school
00:22:45
uniforms on a like a school day. I I
00:22:48
didn't go to my school. We wore the
00:22:50
uniform, went inside the school during
00:22:52
school time. We entered the classroom
00:22:54
and and beat one of the guys up there
00:22:56
kind of like their leader. And after
00:22:58
that, it it kind of died down. Um, oh, I
00:23:02
heard about this. This was massive. So,
00:23:03
there were police helicopters and
00:23:05
>> it was like news. It was crazy. It was
00:23:08
crazy. We all got lined up like
00:23:10
handcuffed and we're all like 14.
00:23:13
Um it was pretty intense. Yeah. But at
00:23:15
that age you feel quite proud of
00:23:17
yourself, right? Cuz you're living like
00:23:19
the movie life and we're watching like
00:23:21
Blood and Blood Out at that time. Have
00:23:22
you seen Blood and Blood Out?
00:23:23
>> No.
00:23:25
Action really?
00:23:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like all the street
00:23:28
kids would know about it. Um we're
00:23:30
influenced heavily by Blood and Blood
00:23:32
Out. So it's like we're living out
00:23:34
>> the the film, you know.
00:23:35
>> So you think it's kind of cool in a way?
00:23:37
>> It was at that time. Yeah. Yeah, I was.
00:23:39
>> But by by this point, your dad's in New
00:23:40
Zealand. Um,
00:23:42
>> yeah. But being being like a Muslim
00:23:45
teenage boy,
00:23:47
well, I mean, when you're with your
00:23:48
mates, you think it's kind of cool, kind
00:23:50
of badass, but then you have to go home
00:23:51
and tell your parents or do the cops
00:23:52
drop you off at home or
00:23:54
>> 100%.
00:23:54
>> Yeah. And then what? Are you in big
00:23:56
trouble?
00:23:56
>> Yeah. Like my father, when I explained
00:23:59
the whole thing to him, like, look,
00:24:00
we're people are being racist towards us
00:24:02
and they jumped our friend and so we
00:24:05
went to defend our friend. He was like,
00:24:07
"Why did you go into the school? Like,
00:24:09
you should have just settled it outside
00:24:10
of school."
00:24:12
I don't know if that's the correct
00:24:13
answer, but
00:24:17
honestly, I think that's the right
00:24:18
answer. It's like why would you go
00:24:19
inside the class? Like, don't disturb
00:24:21
others.
00:24:23
But, yeah, I was sort of thinking it' be
00:24:24
like son, violence is never the answer.
00:24:26
Like, go and talk to a teacher or
00:24:30
>> that my father is a bit of a
00:24:31
revolutionary, so I think he that's the
00:24:33
right response from him. Was was that
00:24:35
incidentally your first um encounter
00:24:37
with the New Zealand police?
00:24:40
>> Before that, we were doing like
00:24:42
shoplifting and stuff. Um that's where
00:24:45
it started like shoplifting, trying to
00:24:47
get clothes to to look cool because we
00:24:49
didn't have the money to buy it.
00:24:51
>> Um
00:24:53
like would get police would come to the
00:24:56
mall and then you'll just get a slap on
00:24:58
the wrist and you'll get let go. But
00:24:59
that was the proper getting arrested,
00:25:02
taken to the police station, investig um
00:25:04
interrogated and so on.
00:25:07
>> Yeah.
00:25:08
>> With with the benefit of hindsight and
00:25:10
you're in a really good good healthy um
00:25:12
place now as a as a a man.
00:25:15
>> Why do you think you're acting out so
00:25:16
badly? Were your siblings acting out as
00:25:18
well or
00:25:20
>> No, my sisters were all good.
00:25:21
>> Yeah. Um my brother started going
00:25:24
through difficulties himself and me and
00:25:26
him kind of split up because we used to
00:25:28
have be really close during childhood
00:25:30
and then it came to a point where we
00:25:31
started distancing ourself. I went down
00:25:34
my own path and he went down his own
00:25:35
path and he was having challenges
00:25:36
himself not similar to mine. Um but no I
00:25:41
think it was just really me. I was
00:25:44
really affected by the unfairness of the
00:25:46
world and I took it on board.
00:25:49
>> And I was like, screw this, you know.
00:25:52
Um, I'm going to live for me. Shit's not
00:25:56
fair anyway, so I'm just going to live
00:25:57
for me.
00:25:58
>> M.
00:25:58
>> And I was doing that for a little while
00:25:59
and it doesn't work out.
00:26:02
You
00:26:02
>> When did you hold up a dairy with a
00:26:04
knife? Was that was that before the
00:26:06
>> That was after the undercover Lynwood
00:26:08
incident or after that?
00:26:09
>> No, that was after. So your your
00:26:11
behavior was escalating. Eh,
00:26:12
>> it was it was getting worse and worse
00:26:14
and your tolerance level builds up,
00:26:16
right? So, you're able to do more
00:26:18
harsher things. And um a rave was coming
00:26:22
up and I hate to say this, but a rave
00:26:24
was coming up and we didn't have money
00:26:25
to buy the drugs that we wanted. And uh
00:26:28
so we decided that we're going to rob a
00:26:31
dairy and it was the first dairy and
00:26:35
I've actually put money in an envelope
00:26:37
and secretly sent it to those dairies
00:26:39
that we robbed uh now. And I hope it's
00:26:42
the same owners that got that money. Um,
00:26:46
I made sure not to have my fingerprints
00:26:48
on the um on the envelope so it doesn't
00:26:51
come back to me. But yeah, man, it was
00:26:54
horrible. Like you didn't have a care
00:26:56
for others, you know?
00:26:58
>> And when you live that way, like all
00:27:00
bets are off. And if I'm being honest,
00:27:03
like if it wasn't for my faith,
00:27:06
I wouldn't have changed. Like why why
00:27:08
should I change? cuz everything else
00:27:11
tells me that life's about me and how I
00:27:13
should live and
00:27:16
>> like I shouldn't care about others,
00:27:17
right?
00:27:18
>> So, yeah, man. I'm just happy to to have
00:27:22
found my faith.
00:27:23
>> Yeah. Did you Did you get caught for
00:27:24
that or No, you got away with it.
00:27:26
>> No. Yeah.
00:27:27
>> Um
00:27:28
Yeah. Can you remember the look in the
00:27:30
in the dairy owner's eyes?
00:27:33
Initially it was like he like laughed
00:27:38
almost. Um
00:27:41
and then I Yeah.
00:27:45
And then I like I made sure I screamed
00:27:48
that uh he would understand that it's
00:27:51
you know happening.
00:27:52
>> And then it changed and they came into a
00:27:54
state of shock. And I feel bad, man,
00:27:57
because they're just people working feed
00:27:59
their family and these little shits come
00:28:02
and try and take it from you. But
00:28:08
>> yeah, man.
00:28:09
>> Yeah, they work they hurt dairy owners.
00:28:11
It's It makes me so sad whenever there's
00:28:13
a story in the news about a dairy being
00:28:15
attacked. Like the mar they work so hard
00:28:17
and the margins are so small.
00:28:19
>> Yeah. How how like you're you're you're
00:28:21
a great man now, but yeah. How does it
00:28:23
sit with you knowing that um you're the
00:28:25
villain in someone else's story and you
00:28:26
will probably be for life?
00:28:28
>> That's probably the those dairies that
00:28:31
we robbed probably would have to be the
00:28:33
worst things that I think I have done
00:28:37
>> and it's something that I'll never be
00:28:38
forgiven for and I've made amends with
00:28:40
that.
00:28:41
>> Um
00:28:44
and I'm trying to do as much good as
00:28:46
possible to try and counterbalance that,
00:28:48
you know.
00:28:49
>> Um but it's something that I can't
00:28:51
change, man. I was young. I was
00:28:54
>> Yeah. not in a good place.
00:28:56
>> I mean, the best thing you can do for
00:28:57
your victims is to, you know, live a
00:28:59
life of purpose.
00:29:00
>> Yeah.
00:29:00
>> I think
00:29:01
>> which is what you're doing now. You said
00:29:02
you sent send sent money back to them.
00:29:04
Did you think have you thought about
00:29:06
going in and saying, "Hey, listen. Look,
00:29:07
I was that kid and I'm really [ __ ]
00:29:09
sorry.
00:29:10
>> I'm afraid that they're going to be
00:29:11
like, "We've got you now, finally."
00:29:16
And I'm going back into prison. I don't
00:29:18
think it's the best move. Okay. Yeah,
00:29:20
maybe you got a point. Okay, fair play.
00:29:22
Fair play. Sorry, I didn't think that
00:29:24
you've thought that one through. I
00:29:25
haven't thought that through. Was it
00:29:27
about this time that you started um um
00:29:29
your door to door weed delivery?
00:29:32
>> Oh, what was your drug of choice? You
00:29:34
said you wanted money from the dairy to
00:29:35
buy drugs for a rave. What were you
00:29:37
into?
00:29:37
>> Um
00:29:38
>> was it like meth or pills or?
00:29:39
>> Yep, just pills, you know, at that age.
00:29:41
Um
00:29:42
>> MDMA pills.
00:29:43
>> MDMA. Yeah, that was the thing back
00:29:45
then. um
00:29:47
started selling drugs when I was
00:29:49
expelled from three high schools.
00:29:52
Um I was like look like it's not much
00:29:55
else I can do. I went and got a job as a
00:29:58
as a salesman as a front for my family.
00:30:01
Like I actually went and bought a suit
00:30:03
as well and I'll tell my family, look,
00:30:05
I've got this job I'm going to and they
00:30:08
would think I'm literally going to do
00:30:09
doorto-d dooror sales job selling a
00:30:11
vacuum air refresher, but I was actually
00:30:14
um selling drugs.
00:30:16
Uh and I think I was the only one doing
00:30:18
door to door sales at that time if I'm
00:30:19
being honest. Um others would meet
00:30:21
people at a park. I would like meet
00:30:23
people right outside their house and it
00:30:25
went really well cuz what year was this?
00:30:28
I don't want to get myself in trouble,
00:30:30
but like 2010, 2011, 2012.
00:30:34
>> So this is probably at the peak of tiny
00:30:35
houses in New Zealand.
00:30:37
>> 100%.
00:30:38
>> Um, wow. So that was really innovative.
00:30:39
You had quite the entrepreneurial uh
00:30:41
ability. So yeah, what were you selling
00:30:44
like like ounce bags, 50 bags, tinies?
00:30:46
>> It started off so I my started off with
00:30:49
buying a half ounce and then literally a
00:30:51
couple of days later I went on to get an
00:30:53
ounce and the guy I was getting it off
00:30:55
with became super impressed. So me and
00:30:57
him built a good relationship and he'll
00:30:59
just and they got to a point where I us
00:31:01
selling a couple of pounds a week um
00:31:03
selling other people ounces so they
00:31:05
could go sell to other people. Um look I
00:31:08
feel bad talking about it and like in
00:31:11
our faith we're told not to talk about
00:31:12
our sins.
00:31:15
Um yeah alhamdulillah.
00:31:18
>> Okay. Yeah. Is it hard? Is it painful to
00:31:19
talk about this stuff?
00:31:21
>> Yeah. Cuz you're not meant to expose
00:31:22
your sins, right? Because if you expose
00:31:24
your sins, then you can't be directly
00:31:26
forgiven by it because you've told to
00:31:28
other people. But
00:31:29
>> um I do say it in a way to raise
00:31:31
awareness about how
00:31:34
uh shitty someone's life can be and how
00:31:36
lost they can be and where they can
00:31:39
>> how far they can come.
00:31:40
>> So it's kind of you have to share that
00:31:42
part or else it wouldn't make sense.
00:31:44
>> Yeah. Yeah. So the the the reason I'm
00:31:46
I'm talking about this stuff, it's sort
00:31:47
of like building building painting a
00:31:48
picture and you building a a story of
00:31:51
like how how low you were before you
00:31:53
managed to climb your way up to where
00:31:54
you are now, which is
00:31:55
>> an inspirational position, I think.
00:31:58
>> Um
00:31:59
>> Yeah. Okay. Last one on that. Yeah. What
00:32:01
were you making on a good week?
00:32:02
>> Couple of thousand.
00:32:04
>> For a young person, like 16. For a young
00:32:06
person, couple of thousand.
00:32:08
>> Uh
00:32:09
>> your parents must have known him or
00:32:11
something.
00:32:11
>> My father, my brother was like, "Where'd
00:32:13
you get that car?" I was like, "It's my
00:32:14
friend's car. You let me let me borrow
00:32:16
it." "Where'd you get the clothes from?"
00:32:18
Uh, you know, my friends let me borrow
00:32:20
it.
00:32:21
>> They knew something was up, but they
00:32:22
just couldn't put their finger on it cuz
00:32:24
I was super discreet.
00:32:25
>> Yeah.
00:32:27
>> Um, but the worst of it came when like I
00:32:30
was making all this money. I still
00:32:33
wasn't feeling satisfied with myself. I
00:32:35
felt empty and and lost and I was taking
00:32:37
more drugs and more drugs. And it got to
00:32:40
a point where I was having a bad trip
00:32:42
off some mushrooms
00:32:45
and I really felt like I was going to
00:32:47
die. And I went to the safest place that
00:32:49
I could find was my parents bedroom on a
00:32:52
Tuesday morning. I went under the covers
00:32:55
and I went into the fetal position and
00:32:57
and I'm like 17 at that time. And I
00:33:01
honestly thought I was going to die. I
00:33:03
threw up next to the bed and I knocked
00:33:05
out fell asleep. And when I woke up, I
00:33:07
was like, "No, this is it, man." Like, I
00:33:09
don't want to continue this. Like, this
00:33:11
is rubbish. So, I took a flight the next
00:33:13
day, traveled to Afghanistan, and had
00:33:16
some experiences that really changed my
00:33:18
perspective.
00:33:19
>> Yeah.
00:33:22
>> But you didn't get caught for any of any
00:33:24
of this stuff. This isn't why you ended
00:33:25
up in um Spring Hill Correctional
00:33:27
Facility.
00:33:28
>> So, with with the weed stuff, like every
00:33:31
time you pulled up to a house, were you
00:33:33
were you nervous that it was going to be
00:33:34
a setup?
00:33:35
>> No. No,
00:33:36
>> I would make sure that I would do like a
00:33:38
drive by first of the house.
00:33:40
>> There were a few instances where I did
00:33:42
see that this was a setup. Um especially
00:33:44
when I was selling like pounds.
00:33:47
>> I saw that especially around the point
00:33:48
Chev area. Um like I'd get called out to
00:33:51
a car park and I'd be like, "Okay, this
00:33:53
is sus. This isn't a normal customer,
00:33:54
you know." So I'd make sure to drive
00:33:56
past, not tell the person what my car
00:33:57
looked like to see if there's any
00:33:59
people, how many people. Um and a lot of
00:34:02
the times I actually would sell in
00:34:03
petrol stations. like I'll tell the guy,
00:34:04
"Come into the petrol station, hop into
00:34:06
my car, and that way there's cameras
00:34:08
everywhere. They can't really act too
00:34:09
violently." Um, and that seemed to work.
00:34:12
But
00:34:14
I started also getting calls from like
00:34:17
the big gangs, you know, cuz they
00:34:19
started realizing that some of their
00:34:21
customers would come to me in their
00:34:22
area, right? And I would get calls from
00:34:25
my known number saying, "We'll come and
00:34:26
knock down your door and we know where
00:34:28
you live." And they'll give me my
00:34:29
address as well.
00:34:31
And so I realized like it's not going to
00:34:34
work out for me to be in this life cuz
00:34:36
that's not who I am, man. I'm not some
00:34:37
like patch member, you know what I mean?
00:34:39
I'm just trying to make some money.
00:34:41
>> So um yeah, I travel to Afghanistan.
00:34:46
>> What What were you chasing? Like was it
00:34:48
acceptance, excitement, escape?
00:34:53
>> All three, man. Like acceptance 100%. I
00:34:56
always felt like I didn't belong and
00:34:59
wasn't really the cool kid in
00:35:01
intermediate and high school. I was the
00:35:03
cool kid in primary school. Um but as I
00:35:05
went off the rails, I wasn't the cool
00:35:07
kid anymore. So I was almost like a lone
00:35:09
wolf most of the time. Um excitement as
00:35:13
well. You're a young person.
00:35:15
You're wanting to live out what you see
00:35:16
on music videos and TV. Um and then what
00:35:20
was the last one?
00:35:21
>> Escape. Escape 100%. the emptiness that
00:35:24
I felt cuz none of these things was
00:35:26
fulfilling me.
00:35:28
>> So, I was just getting deeper and deeper
00:35:30
into the hole of trying to search and
00:35:32
find what could make me feel less empty.
00:35:34
>> Um, and it wasn't until I found my faith
00:35:36
that that emptiness was completely full.
00:35:40
>> So, you mentioned before that um um the
00:35:42
hallucinogenic incident with um the
00:35:44
mushrooms and the bad trip and then then
00:35:47
you you return home to rediscover your
00:35:49
faith. But is it after you return to New
00:35:52
Zealand that that you get in the trouble
00:35:53
that ultimately saw you incarcerated?
00:35:55
>> Yeah. So when I when I left New Zealand
00:35:58
after the um overdose experience,
00:36:02
>> I went into Afghanistan and I was having
00:36:04
a cigarette in the side of a canal.
00:36:07
Um and I saw these kids like going into
00:36:10
the winter of Kabul. There's snow
00:36:12
everywhere. They go into the canal.
00:36:14
Dirty canal, man. Like dirty. And
00:36:16
they're going and collecting bottles.
00:36:18
One dude drops in and he's throwing
00:36:19
bottle. These guys are like 10 years
00:36:20
old, man. Throwing bottles outside and
00:36:23
they're collecting the bottles and
00:36:24
they'll go from canal to canal,
00:36:27
get as much plastic as possible and then
00:36:29
they go sell it for a few dollars. And I
00:36:31
saw the guy and he had a huge smile on
00:36:33
his face and he was proud of what he was
00:36:34
doing. He was feeding for his family
00:36:37
after going to school. And I spoke to
00:36:40
him like, "Look, would you do this if I
00:36:42
give you money? Like if I was to give
00:36:43
you more money, would you do this again?
00:36:44
Would you come back here tomorrow?" And
00:36:46
he said, "Yeah, I will, man. cuz if I
00:36:47
don't come back tomorrow, I'm not going
00:36:48
to feel like coming back the next day
00:36:50
and I have to provide for my family. And
00:36:51
I could see the dignity that that person
00:36:53
had. Um,
00:36:56
and I almost felt jealous, you know. And
00:36:59
another incident, young people again, I
00:37:02
meet these three kids. They're shining
00:37:04
shoes.
00:37:06
It's like super cheap to get your shoes
00:37:08
shined. I gave them my shoes. The guy
00:37:09
shining my shoes. 10-year-old again. I
00:37:12
asked him like, "Do your friends shine
00:37:13
shoes as well at school?" He's like
00:37:15
after school some of them shine shoes
00:37:17
but some of them go up on that mountain
00:37:19
they pointed at to a hill in the city
00:37:22
and they sell themselves for money
00:37:25
and when I hear that as a person who's
00:37:28
got himself into a victim mindset coming
00:37:30
from a very privileged background New
00:37:32
Zealand we're all privileged here I
00:37:33
don't care what anybody tells me we're
00:37:35
so privileged to live in this country
00:37:37
>> it was like a slap on my face
00:37:39
>> it was the realization I needed like man
00:37:41
you've got so much going for you [ __ ]
00:37:44
quit with this [ __ ] stuff, you know,
00:37:46
with this victim mindset. Go out and
00:37:48
make something. So, I came back to New
00:37:50
Zealand with a different mindset, like,
00:37:51
okay, I'm going to use the opportunities
00:37:53
that I have, but I still had my bad
00:37:55
habits. Hung around with some of the
00:37:57
friends that I shouldn't have hung
00:37:58
around with. Um, they got caught for
00:38:02
something that they did and I was with
00:38:03
them
00:38:04
>> even though I had told them, "Look, I
00:38:05
don't want anything to do with this. I
00:38:07
don't want anything." They got caught
00:38:09
and um and I was okay going to prison.
00:38:13
Like the police officer told me, "Look,
00:38:15
if you rat out your friends because
00:38:18
you're not involved in this, if you rat
00:38:20
out your friends, you'll be let off."
00:38:22
Like, "I can't do that." Um part of it
00:38:24
was because I secretly wanted to be
00:38:27
taken away from society and make amends
00:38:30
for the wrong that I had committed that
00:38:32
nobody nobody knew about. So, I was okay
00:38:34
with going to prison. Um and at the age
00:38:36
of 18 I was sentenced to 3 years and 2
00:38:39
months and
00:38:40
>> I went into Oakland prison. So that was
00:38:43
for um aggravated robbery and
00:38:45
kidnapping, which sounds sounds really I
00:38:48
I don't want to like I don't want to
00:38:49
like minimize what you did because for
00:38:51
the um the the guy involved, I'm sure it
00:38:53
was like a terrifying experience, but
00:38:55
>> it it does sound worse than
00:38:57
>> like when you when you break it down, it
00:38:59
was like a you ripped someone off on
00:39:01
Facebook Marketplace. Really? E the
00:39:03
group that I was with, they they sorted
00:39:05
someone out. They said they want to buy
00:39:07
something off him. He came into the car.
00:39:09
They had the child lock the child lock
00:39:11
on. he couldn't get out. Um, and they
00:39:14
basically told him like, "Give us your
00:39:15
laptop." There wasn't any violence
00:39:17
involved. There wasn't any like punching
00:39:19
or kicking. Um, there was a bit of
00:39:22
shouting, but because the individual was
00:39:25
16 and we were 17, 18, I think that's
00:39:29
why they took it serious. Um, and I'm
00:39:32
glad, man. I'm glad that happened.
00:39:34
Honestly, I don't personally think
00:39:38
going to prison is a bad thing. if you
00:39:41
go in with the right mindset.
00:39:43
>> Yeah.
00:39:45
>> So, when that happens, when you get um
00:39:47
arrested and charged for um aggravate
00:39:49
being involved with an aggravated
00:39:50
robbery and a kidnapping, do you you
00:39:52
tell your parents?
00:39:53
>> The day before I go to prison, I tell
00:39:56
them like the night off, I'm sitting in
00:39:58
the family.
00:39:59
>> So, you didn't tell them you were going
00:40:00
through going to court and not telling
00:40:01
them.
00:40:02
>> No, no, I wasn't at all.
00:40:03
>> Why? Why? Who did you share it with?
00:40:04
>> I don't want to I don't want to take
00:40:05
like my my family to the New Zealand
00:40:08
court. like it's not a nice place, man.
00:40:10
You know, and I was like, if I get off,
00:40:13
I get off. If I don't, I'll just tell
00:40:14
them the day before my sentencing. Um,
00:40:17
and that's what happened. Like, I got a
00:40:19
call the day before my court case. And
00:40:21
up until then, the the lawyer was
00:40:23
telling me, "Oh, you're going to get
00:40:26
home detention, right?" Uh, but the day
00:40:28
before he calls me, he's like, "Look,
00:40:30
mate, I think you're going to go to
00:40:31
prison for at least 3 years." And I was
00:40:34
like, "Shit, I'm sitting in my family
00:40:36
lounge." I think we're like watching a
00:40:37
movie or something. And then I break it
00:40:39
down to everyone like, "Oh, I've got a
00:40:40
court case tomorrow and I might be going
00:40:42
to prison." What the heck?
00:40:43
>> Pause the movie. Pause the movie, guys.
00:40:45
I've got news. Oh my god. My father,
00:40:48
this is the first time I saw him saw him
00:40:50
tearing up like he started um tearing,
00:40:52
you know, the morning when I was leaving
00:40:54
the family. I like hugged everybody and
00:40:56
my brother came with me to the
00:40:58
courtroom. Yeah.
00:41:01
>> [ __ ] How was that?
00:41:04
It felt I had built a connection with my
00:41:06
family at that moment. Like for me it
00:41:09
was a beautiful moment. It was like a
00:41:10
>> it's a moment of vulnerability.
00:41:12
>> Yeah. It was like an embrace, you know,
00:41:13
like you you messed up, man. Um but
00:41:16
we're going to be with you, you know.
00:41:18
>> Um and they had seen that I was trying
00:41:21
to better my life. Like I was trying to
00:41:22
go to uni. I was doing foundation course
00:41:24
and everything else. So they saw that I
00:41:26
was going on a positive trajectory and
00:41:28
then all of a sudden boom, present.
00:41:29
They're like shocked almost cuz they
00:41:31
thought I had left it behind. M
00:41:37
>> why did why didn't you feel more hard
00:41:38
done by
00:41:40
uh as in like judge giving me three
00:41:42
years two months?
00:41:43
>> Yeah. When Yeah. When you when you when
00:41:45
you hear about your role in it and you
00:41:47
didn't really want any part of it and
00:41:49
>> I'm a bit of I'm a bit of a sick I'm a
00:41:51
bit of a sick person in a way because I
00:41:54
like to get punished
00:41:56
>> especially when I know I've done wrong.
00:41:57
I I like to get punished and and I do
00:41:59
that to myself as well. I punish myself.
00:42:02
Um,
00:42:04
and so when the judge didn't even look
00:42:06
at me and he sentenced me to three
00:42:08
years, two months, just like that, boom.
00:42:12
Um,
00:42:14
I went into the back of the courtroom. I
00:42:16
had my head in my hands and I was like,
00:42:17
"Fuck." Like, did I make the right
00:42:19
decision? You know, was this the right
00:42:21
move? Like, I was in uni. I was trying
00:42:23
to change my, yes, I had some bad
00:42:24
habits, but I was trying to change my
00:42:26
life around. This is going to put me
00:42:27
back so much.
00:42:29
Um so initially I I felt really heavy
00:42:33
with that for a couple of days. Um
00:42:38
yeah man and uh the first week in prison
00:42:44
and I and I share the story in my book.
00:42:48
3:00 in the morning
00:42:50
the cell door slams open. Three guards
00:42:53
come in. They take my cellmate outside.
00:42:56
They tell me to stand and they tell me
00:42:58
to strip. And it wasn't the first time I
00:43:00
got strip searched, but this was
00:43:02
different. 3:00 in the morning, you're
00:43:05
like, "What's going on?" Boom. Very
00:43:07
fast, you know, aggressive.
00:43:09
Strip searched. Made feel absolutely,
00:43:13
you know, humiliated.
00:43:16
Second night, same thing, same guards
00:43:18
come in, same time, bang, slab, cell
00:43:21
door slams open. I guess shrimp
00:43:22
searched. The third night, the same
00:43:25
thing happens, man.
00:43:26
my first week in prison, I'm like,
00:43:28
"Fuck, like I [ __ ] up, you know, and
00:43:32
there isn't anything you can do about
00:43:33
it. You you retaliate, just going to get
00:43:35
more charges and you get more time." And
00:43:38
at that third night, that was probably
00:43:40
the lowest point in my life. Like
00:43:41
absolute lowest. And I knew I never
00:43:44
wanted to be in that position ever
00:43:46
again. That's why I don't understand
00:43:47
people who think prison's cool. Like
00:43:50
there's this culture that people think
00:43:52
that if you've been to prison, it's cool
00:43:54
somehow and you get your stripes, but
00:43:57
you get strip searched in prison by
00:43:59
another man.
00:44:00
>> Mhm.
00:44:00
>> And you don't have any control. He tells
00:44:03
you bend down and you have to bend down.
00:44:05
And nobody talks about that. Oh, don't
00:44:07
talk about that. Talk about how it's
00:44:08
cool. That's not cool at all. Before
00:44:10
every visit,
00:44:12
you put on your Teletubby suit and then
00:44:14
when you come out, you get strip
00:44:16
searched again. after just seeing your
00:44:18
family, you get strip searched. That's
00:44:20
why I didn't want to see my family for
00:44:21
like the first month. I was like, I
00:44:23
don't want to see you guys because I
00:44:24
knew you'd get strip searched. I don't
00:44:25
want to go through that humiliating
00:44:26
process.
00:44:28
>> But because my mom was really wanting to
00:44:30
catch up, so
00:44:32
>> I I can understand the need for um strip
00:44:35
searches after a visit in case
00:44:36
contraband has been passed from the
00:44:38
visitor to the inmate. But what was the
00:44:40
what was the reason for the strip
00:44:42
searches in the middle of the night?
00:44:43
Contraband hardly comes through that way
00:44:45
though and everybody knows contraband
00:44:47
comes through the and I'm an adviser for
00:44:50
the department of corrections. I don't
00:44:51
want to get in trouble but a lot of the
00:44:53
time contraband comes through very
00:44:56
>> proper ways you know yeah it doesn't
00:44:59
come through visits like you're wearing
00:45:01
a Teletubby suit there's guard standing
00:45:03
around they're looking at you the whole
00:45:04
time how are you going to get something
00:45:05
inside you and put it up your backside
00:45:08
>> you know but it's a process that that
00:45:11
you have to go through
00:45:13
What's involved in that strip search
00:45:14
surge?
00:45:15
>> Pull down your jocks and squats in front
00:45:19
of another man.
00:45:21
>> It's absolutely humiliating, man. And
00:45:24
going through that experience, I was
00:45:26
like, I'm never coming back to prison
00:45:27
ever again. I'll do whatever it takes.
00:45:30
How can I come back to this place and
00:45:32
experience this?
00:45:33
>> Why are they doing that at 3:00 in the
00:45:34
morning? Is it just power and control?
00:45:37
>> There's a few reasons. When I
00:45:38
internalize the situation, it was like
00:45:41
either they're
00:45:43
wanting to, you know, just give us a
00:45:46
really harsh reality cuz we're young 18y
00:45:49
olds. We should never come back to
00:45:51
prison. Okay, that's one option. The
00:45:53
other option is they're just having some
00:45:54
fun. New kids on the block. Let's give
00:45:56
them a scare. Um, and the other thing
00:45:59
was maybe they thought that because we
00:46:01
came in and our sentence wasn't too
00:46:02
long, we actually came in with
00:46:04
contraband
00:46:05
>> as donkeys they called it.
00:46:08
>> Oh, like meals.
00:46:09
>> Meals like you would you would put it up
00:46:11
your backside like a lot of people would
00:46:12
do this. They'll come in for a short
00:46:14
stint, put up put it up their backside
00:46:15
and then bring that contraband to the
00:46:17
rest of the unit.
00:46:18
>> So I think that's what they thought. And
00:46:19
the f fourth thing, maybe they were just
00:46:21
like couple of racist guys cuz they're
00:46:24
all white dudes and kind of seemed like
00:46:26
they were getting satisfaction from it
00:46:28
to be honest.
00:46:30
>> Yeah. So immediately after after being
00:46:32
sentenced you you go to Mount Hayden
00:46:34
remand for for how long?
00:46:37
>> Yeah. Uh 2 days actually. Initially in
00:46:39
my first unit, I was there for 2 days
00:46:41
and that was a crazy experience because
00:46:44
we go in and I'm like super paranoid
00:46:46
that I've seen all the prison films,
00:46:48
right? People are going to come into
00:46:50
your unit and they're going to try, you
00:46:52
know, test you and and like rape you as
00:46:55
well. Like this was the front and center
00:46:57
in our mind. And I told my cellmate
00:46:59
like, "Look, whatever happens, we're
00:47:01
going to fight back. We're as soon as
00:47:02
the cell door opens, people are going to
00:47:04
come in here and we're going to fight
00:47:05
back."
00:47:06
And uh I couldn't go to sleep that
00:47:08
night. I kept waking up kept waking up
00:47:09
thinking the cell door was going to
00:47:10
open. Sal door is going to open. And in
00:47:12
the morning the cell door didn't open.
00:47:15
And I went out to the cell door and I
00:47:18
saw and there was like Kabes coming out.
00:47:20
There's there's like a whole bunch of
00:47:22
them and they were training and it was
00:47:23
like a very intense unit and there the
00:47:26
guard didn't open our cell door and that
00:47:28
was because we were in remand and we
00:47:30
were sentenced. So went into another
00:47:33
unit, we were sentenced. That was all
00:47:35
good. It was pretty chill. And then
00:47:36
we're taken to Spring Hill Corrections
00:47:38
Facility up in Bombay Hills.
00:47:40
>> So, do they is the communication any
00:47:42
good? Like do you know you know what's
00:47:44
happening and where you're being sent to
00:47:46
and
00:47:46
>> No. No. It's just like you know like
00:47:50
half an hour before like you're being
00:47:52
transferred to this location.
00:47:54
>> Pack up your stuff and you have to pack
00:47:55
up and go.
00:47:57
>> Um yeah man interesting experience.
00:48:00
Spring Hill was nice though. Spring Hill
00:48:02
was nice.
00:48:03
>> Five stars. would recommend.
00:48:05
>> It actually was. But you know what?
00:48:07
>> What do you mean nice? Can you explain
00:48:09
that?
00:48:10
>> Look, it's one of the prisons where you
00:48:12
have you can see the sky.
00:48:14
>> Like in the units you can see the sky.
00:48:16
In Mount Eden, we couldn't
00:48:19
>> um and that's really difficult. Like we
00:48:21
could train in our units,
00:48:23
>> see the sky, experience the sunlight,
00:48:25
and it really helped. Um made the
00:48:27
experience much easier.
00:48:30
But now 10 years on, right, I'm part of
00:48:32
a ministerial advisory group to the
00:48:34
department of corrections.
00:48:36
Um, we meet every 3 months. We go and
00:48:39
speak to the department of corrections
00:48:40
commissioner. Like it's very high level
00:48:42
stuff. And they took us back to the same
00:48:44
prison that I was released from, Spring
00:48:46
Hill Corrections, as like a we went with
00:48:48
the commissioner and did a walk around
00:48:50
the the prison. And I saw that the
00:48:53
prison had gotten considerably worse.
00:48:56
The unit that I was in, there was no
00:48:58
grass anymore. Everything was concrete,
00:49:00
more steel cages. And it just showed and
00:49:03
the majority of people were on remand,
00:49:05
which means more people are committing
00:49:07
crime
00:49:08
>> and the the system is not working. It's
00:49:10
breaking down. And when I saw that,
00:49:12
honestly, I went back to that same unit.
00:49:14
I was very heartbroken
00:49:15
>> cuz I was hoping to see like hope in
00:49:19
there. And I didn't. I didn't, man. And
00:49:22
I felt really bad that that that's the
00:49:24
way our system is um heading towards and
00:49:27
it's not going to be good for our
00:49:28
society.
00:49:29
>> It's a ticking time bomb, man.
00:49:33
>> So, you get to Spring Hill, which is
00:49:35
your new home for the foreseeable
00:49:36
future. Maybe up to 3 years, I don't
00:49:38
know.
00:49:39
>> Um
00:49:40
>> yeah. How long does it take to adjust?
00:49:42
What like the first week? Do you you cry
00:49:44
yourself to sleep every night?
00:49:45
>> No, I didn't cry. I didn't cry.
00:49:47
Alhamdulillah. Um
00:49:49
it gets time it gets a little bit of
00:49:52
getting used to like the food um the
00:49:54
different characters in the unit. You
00:49:56
have to figure out the different types
00:50:00
of people, how to interact with the
00:50:02
different types of people and um I
00:50:05
quickly learned that I needed to do more
00:50:07
reading. So, I got like books on body
00:50:10
language from the prison library and I
00:50:12
started to learn more about reading
00:50:14
people's body language and how to
00:50:15
interact with people. Um, how to stand
00:50:18
firm in certain situations and and let
00:50:20
go of other situations. Um, and I
00:50:23
navigated their system quite well if I'm
00:50:25
being honest. There were a few times
00:50:26
where I was in a situation and I could
00:50:29
have chosen to take the other path of
00:50:33
destruction and becoming an animal and
00:50:35
being in the prison cycle for the rest
00:50:37
of my life or letting it go, doing my
00:50:41
time and getting out. And I thankfully
00:50:43
chose that side. Um
00:50:46
but it teaches you a lot about
00:50:50
you know this importance of respect and
00:50:53
having respect for people and expecting
00:50:55
respect back and being straightforward
00:50:58
and and communicating well like in
00:51:00
prison you can't leave things for
00:51:02
judgment. Things can escalate very
00:51:04
quickly if somebody feels disrespected
00:51:05
because of how you've acted of what
00:51:07
you've said.
00:51:08
>> Out in society man you can get away with
00:51:11
so much
00:51:12
>> and that's what I appreciated about
00:51:13
prison. like I could leave a live a more
00:51:16
comfortable life in there once I've or
00:51:19
um understood the dynamics. You could
00:51:21
live a much more comfortable life.
00:51:23
Whereas in outside like people throw
00:51:25
shade, people aren't direct with you.
00:51:29
Um people can get away with stuff. Um
00:51:32
and I really appreciated that about
00:51:33
prison.
00:51:34
>> Did you manage to avoid violence?
00:51:37
>> Um yes, I did actually. And that's very
00:51:42
rare for people to and I wasn't in sex.
00:51:45
I'm just going to be straight up. I
00:51:46
wasn't in sex. I I choose to be in
00:51:48
mainstream. Um but there were instances
00:51:53
where I was tested and I stood my ground
00:51:55
and it didn't escalate
00:51:57
>> because you would get tested to see if
00:51:59
you're going to back down. And if you
00:52:00
back down then they would come into you
00:52:02
your unit, take your come into yourself,
00:52:05
take your staff because they know you're
00:52:06
a pushover. But you stand firm and you
00:52:09
show that you're ready for violence. A
00:52:11
lot of the time violence doesn't happen.
00:52:12
It only happens when one side
00:52:14
disrespects the other side extremely and
00:52:16
in between gangs as well.
00:52:18
>> Yeah.
00:52:18
>> Did you see some things that you can't
00:52:20
unsee?
00:52:22
>> Um
00:52:24
I mean like wasn't that harsh like you
00:52:27
you'd have people go inside a a cell,
00:52:30
fight it out, one person comes out
00:52:32
bloodied up, the other guy we wouldn't
00:52:34
see for a little while. Um, but other
00:52:38
than that, like there wasn't any raping
00:52:40
or anything like that going on, if I'm
00:52:42
being honest.
00:52:43
>> Um, it was a it was a good unit that I
00:52:46
was in.
00:52:47
>> Yeah.
00:52:49
>> I've heard you talk about this chapter
00:52:50
of your your life and you talk about
00:52:52
looking at Gollum in the mirror.
00:52:54
>> What does what does that mean? So I I
00:52:56
discovered that I have Gollum and and
00:53:00
for people that are aware of Gollum,
00:53:02
he's the character in Lord of the Rings
00:53:05
who was initially a person called
00:53:06
Smeaggel and because of the you know the
00:53:11
desire that he had for attaining the
00:53:13
ring he started to go down a destructive
00:53:15
path. He you know started murdering and
00:53:19
and being a liar and a cheat and he
00:53:21
became the worst version of himself.
00:53:24
And me being in prison, I discovered
00:53:26
that I also had Gollum, the worst
00:53:28
version of me inside of me that was
00:53:31
trying to make me live the most
00:53:33
disgusting life, a selfish life. And I
00:53:37
realized the way I could tame Gollum was
00:53:39
to punish myself and to sacrifice and go
00:53:44
through hardship and train and be
00:53:46
disciplined. And as I started to do do
00:53:48
these things, I I grabbed the control
00:53:50
over Gollum and Gollum actually became
00:53:52
my friend. And now Gollum encourages me
00:53:55
to do good things rather than trying to
00:53:57
take me down a destructive path. But
00:53:59
that was because I was able to tame my
00:54:01
Gollum.
00:54:02
>> Um, and in Islam we call it actually the
00:54:05
nuffs. Um,
00:54:08
yeah. Did you meet anyone inside who
00:54:11
helped change your perspective?
00:54:14
>> Um, there were a few people. One of the
00:54:15
main persons was Muhammad. uh he was a
00:54:20
individual who was there for importing
00:54:23
drugs, high amounts of drugs from Sweden
00:54:26
and meeting him I initially saw that he
00:54:30
used to train in the in the unit and he
00:54:33
was disciplined and people respected
00:54:35
him. So I automatically connected with
00:54:37
him and kind of followed his routine
00:54:39
>> and it really helped you know to have a
00:54:41
routine to hang around with people that
00:54:43
weren't just sitting on a seat listening
00:54:46
to music and letting life go by. M
00:54:48
>> I saw so many of these people in prison.
00:54:50
They'll literally just sit on a seat the
00:54:52
whole time listen to 50 Cent or Tupac or
00:54:55
whatever and just like days out and just
00:54:57
let time go by. I never understood it
00:54:59
honestly.
00:55:00
>> I was like this is your opportunity to
00:55:02
make something of yourself to rebuild
00:55:03
yourself. Why are you sitting down doing
00:55:05
nothing?
00:55:06
>> How are they is have they got a
00:55:07
Bluetooth speaker or
00:55:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a speaker? Um at
00:55:11
that time it was like discs,
00:55:12
>> right?
00:55:13
>> Um I think they still use
00:55:15
>> compact discs.
00:55:16
>> Yeah. There's a there's a saying I've
00:55:17
heard um you you do your time or your
00:55:19
time will do you. And I suppose that's
00:55:21
what that's what you're talking about
00:55:22
here.
00:55:23
>> Yeah.
00:55:23
>> Um
00:55:26
>> did you did you feel like you belonged
00:55:27
or or did you think I'm I'm not like
00:55:29
excuse me I'm not like these guys?
00:55:31
>> I definitely saw myself in people
00:55:34
>> you know and I see that even now like
00:55:36
when I'm out onto the street I see
00:55:37
somebody who's struggling very severely.
00:55:40
I'm like man that could have been me.
00:55:42
Yeah.
00:55:42
>> So I'm really grateful of my situation.
00:55:45
Um but I definitely saw that there are
00:55:47
people who have lived very difficult
00:55:49
lives and I can't relate to them and
00:55:52
that is not the reality that I have. You
00:55:54
know I come from a loving family. Um I
00:55:58
am a Muslim like I have a faith I have a
00:56:01
sense of purpose and a belonging. So no
00:56:04
there were times where I felt completely
00:56:06
out of place and I knew I wasn't going
00:56:07
to come back.
00:56:09
>> Yeah. In saying that though, like you
00:56:11
you you know, you've got your own
00:56:12
everyone's got their own journey, but
00:56:13
you you've got a journey as well. Like
00:56:15
you've been a a victim of abuse. Um you
00:56:17
had to flee your home country, you moved
00:56:20
to New Zealand without your dad when
00:56:21
when you were seven. Like, you know, you
00:56:24
don't don't minimize what you've been
00:56:25
through.
00:56:26
>> But I actually think the the more
00:56:28
difficulty you go through, the more
00:56:30
powerful you can be.
00:56:32
>> And and we don't often think of it that
00:56:34
way. like people who have been
00:56:35
completely destroyed and and gone
00:56:38
through the most difficult things, they
00:56:40
can actually become the most impactful
00:56:44
uh members of society. And that's why I
00:56:46
think there's so much potential in
00:56:47
prisons that's just untapped. Because if
00:56:50
all these people that have gone through
00:56:51
difficult lives, if you were to
00:56:54
transform
00:56:55
them, man, they would like change
00:56:58
society, you know, they would be your
00:57:00
entrepreneurs, the your um motivational
00:57:03
speakers, and they would have so much
00:57:05
positive impact.
00:57:06
>> And we're just letting them, you know,
00:57:09
rot.
00:57:12
>> When when was it the hardest? Like, I'm
00:57:14
thinking you're in there 11 months all
00:57:15
up, so I'm guessing you did at least a
00:57:17
birthday or Christmas or maybe both in
00:57:18
there. Yeah.
00:57:21
When is it the hardest?
00:57:22
>> We would actually celebrate people's
00:57:24
birthdays in there would make like cakes
00:57:26
as well. Um the whole unit would sit
00:57:28
around and and would uh eat together.
00:57:31
The hardest would probably have to be
00:57:34
um
00:57:37
like times when
00:57:39
you're feeling
00:57:43
like [ __ ] man am I actually going to be
00:57:44
able to redeem myself? like these things
00:57:46
that I'm saying I'm going to do. I want
00:57:48
to go to the best university for
00:57:50
engineering. Am I actually going to be
00:57:52
able to do this? Like those
00:57:53
conversations were the most difficult
00:57:55
cuz I had to keep fighting self-doubt
00:57:59
and and be like, "No, you can do it. You
00:58:01
can do it." You know, I'd often get
00:58:03
because I suffered with from low
00:58:04
self-esteem.
00:58:06
Um I would go into the mirror after
00:58:08
working out. I would go into the mirror,
00:58:10
look at myself, literally look at myself
00:58:12
and be like, "You're doing so well." you
00:58:15
know, like I would have conversations
00:58:16
with myself in the scratchy um steel
00:58:19
mirror. Um and I would do that every
00:58:22
day. And when I came out, I I found out
00:58:23
there's this term called mirror
00:58:25
meditation where people actually do this
00:58:26
to to like
00:58:28
>> uh you know, rebuild themsel.
00:58:29
>> Yeah. Positive affirmations.
00:58:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I was and I was doing
00:58:32
that just out of natural like
00:58:33
conversations.
00:58:35
>> Um so whenever I felt that difficulty,
00:58:38
I'll do that. I would pray. I'd give
00:58:39
myself positive affirmations.
00:58:42
Um but yeah man on a whole I had a had a
00:58:44
good prison experience.
00:58:47
>> Um and it's a dream scenario like you
00:58:50
know you you're not a recidivist
00:58:52
>> like you you know you've you've you were
00:58:54
released and you haven't gone back um
00:58:55
which is like a a dream for the
00:58:57
correction um department dream for
00:59:00
society as well.
00:59:01
>> 100%.
00:59:01
>> So release day what's that like? Like
00:59:04
are you counting down the days?
00:59:05
>> You're feeling nervous man. You're
00:59:07
feeling nervous. like some people in the
00:59:09
unit wouldn't tell people that they're
00:59:11
being released because people would have
00:59:13
their eyebrows shaven like before being
00:59:15
released.
00:59:17
Um but because I had good relations with
00:59:19
everyone and and I had respect, I told
00:59:22
like my friends and everybody like this
00:59:23
is my release date and people were quite
00:59:25
happy for me. I thought that people
00:59:26
would be resentful like oh this guy's
00:59:28
leaving, you know,
00:59:29
>> but they were happy. They're like, you
00:59:30
know, all the best and and this and
00:59:32
that. But as release day is coming up,
00:59:34
you start to feel more and more nervous.
00:59:36
Like, [ __ ] I'm going back into society.
00:59:38
There's so much expectations. Life here
00:59:40
was easy. Everything was like
00:59:41
straightforward.
00:59:43
I'm going into the unknown. My sister
00:59:45
picks me up. She's driving in the
00:59:46
motorway coming back from Bombay Hills.
00:59:48
She's just going at 100, you know,
00:59:50
normal. And I'm like, "Yo, slow down.
00:59:51
Slow. You're going too fast."
00:59:54
Like, I'm freaking out. Um, and I my
00:59:57
first time I I remember going into the
01:00:00
mall to buy some clothes. I go into the
01:00:02
mall and there's so many people. There's
01:00:03
like I'm looking around and and I've
01:00:05
only been in prison for a year and it
01:00:07
just feels so intense and it took me
01:00:09
time and I went back home and I almost
01:00:11
broke down to my mom. I was like [ __ ] I
01:00:12
don't think I'm going to be able to do
01:00:13
this. Like how am I going to feel back
01:00:15
like I'm going to be able to come back
01:00:17
into society.
01:00:19
>> The wise woman she is. She's like it's
01:00:20
okay son. Like you just come back come
01:00:22
out give it some time. You'll be back.
01:00:24
You'll be normal.
01:00:25
>> Um for about two weeks I wouldn't go
01:00:27
outside of the house much. And then I
01:00:29
started to to um to be okay.
01:00:34
>> What about forgiveness? Have you
01:00:36
forgiven yourself? Has your family
01:00:37
forgiven you?
01:00:40
>> Um I've I've often asked my mother for
01:00:42
forgiveness and she says that she's very
01:00:44
proud of who I am now.
01:00:46
>> I've forgiven myself as well. Um
01:00:51
and I'm trying to do as much good as
01:00:53
possible. M
01:00:54
>> um yeah what did you what did you learn
01:00:56
about forgiveness through this whole
01:00:57
experience both giving it and asking for
01:00:59
it
01:01:02
>> um that it's the one of the biggest
01:01:03
things you can do in your journey of
01:01:05
self-healing like for me it's probably
01:01:08
the first
01:01:10
um taking accountability and then
01:01:12
forgiving yourself I think it comes
01:01:14
first because without it you're not
01:01:16
going to be able to move on um and start
01:01:19
to really rebuild
01:01:22
um giving forgiveness to other people. I
01:01:26
followed the model of our prophet peace
01:01:28
be upon him who was very forgiving
01:01:30
person and I talk about a story in in
01:01:33
the book where he forgave the killer of
01:01:35
his um uncle who he was very close to.
01:01:39
Um, and and I understand like if we want
01:01:42
to live a life where
01:01:48
like we're not repeating the cycle,
01:01:50
someone has to step up and be like,
01:01:52
okay, it's going to stop with me and I'm
01:01:54
going to forgive and I'm not going to
01:01:56
continue this. And it's the same thing
01:01:57
that happened in March 15, right?
01:02:00
>> Um, someone has to stand and be like, I
01:02:03
forgive. I'm going to stop it here. I'm
01:02:04
not going to let this continue. And
01:02:06
research finds that when people actually
01:02:08
do that, when you give somebody else the
01:02:10
benefit of the dou doubt or you forgive,
01:02:13
you can actually live a really good life
01:02:16
and build a really good relationship.
01:02:17
>> Yeah.
01:02:18
>> Yeah.
01:02:20
>> What was the hardest part about starting
01:02:22
again?
01:02:24
>> Knowing how much I had to do.
01:02:26
>> Mhm.
01:02:27
>> Yeah. I suppose if someone's starting on
01:02:28
like ground zero, you're starting on,
01:02:30
you know, -35. I I felt like I had to do
01:02:33
twice the work to to be where I'm at and
01:02:36
I'm very thankful for it.
01:02:37
>> The most difficult part of that
01:02:39
transition was probably my first year at
01:02:40
uni at at UC. I'm sitting among all
01:02:44
these freshly gradu uh finished from
01:02:46
high school kids, you know, and I've
01:02:48
come out of prison and I'm like haven't
01:02:51
gone through the schooling system. So I
01:02:52
was lucky to be in the first year of
01:02:55
engineering
01:02:58
and it was very challenging like I would
01:03:00
be in the library till 11:00 12:00 every
01:03:02
single day. Um
01:03:06
but once I got through that first year I
01:03:07
was like man I could do this
01:03:09
>> like I could do this. Um and after that
01:03:13
everything just became a
01:03:15
>> yeah breeze.
01:03:17
>> Well it's funny cuz you know you get you
01:03:19
get momentum. Um, so as you found out
01:03:21
when you were younger, you know, there's
01:03:22
negative momentum where your behavior
01:03:24
gets worse and worse, but it works the
01:03:26
other way as well with, you know, with
01:03:27
good positive habits.
01:03:29
>> It does, man. It does. And it builds on
01:03:31
it builds on each other and it's all
01:03:32
interlin as well.
01:03:33
>> Why did why did you end up studying
01:03:35
engineering in Christ Church? Was that
01:03:36
was part of that to get away from your
01:03:38
old friend group or
01:03:39
>> in Christ Church? That was the reason.
01:03:41
But engineering, I decided because when
01:03:43
I was in prison, I was like, I want to
01:03:46
become a good engineer so I can help
01:03:47
rebuild, right? And when I went to
01:03:50
Afghanistan in 2012, I noticed how much
01:03:51
of the infrastructure had been
01:03:52
destroyed. So I was like, if I study
01:03:54
engineering, I can help rebuild.
01:03:57
Made that decision in prison. And then
01:03:59
um I told my family, I was like, "Yes,
01:04:02
I've applied at Oakland Uni as well."
01:04:05
But I actually didn't even apply at
01:04:06
Oakland Uni. I just put all my eggs into
01:04:08
UC cuz I knew that was the best uni for
01:04:10
engineering civil. And um lo and behold,
01:04:13
I got accepted, man. And I went away.
01:04:15
And that was probably the best decision
01:04:17
I could make because I did get away from
01:04:19
my friends.
01:04:20
>> I went into a complete different
01:04:23
environment, changed my name and really
01:04:26
just began to rebuild myself.
01:04:29
>> Um,
01:04:30
did you in those early years in in
01:04:33
university like did you like tell people
01:04:35
your story or what you'd been through or
01:04:38
I I made sure I didn't tell anybody. If
01:04:40
I became very close with someone um then
01:04:43
I would tell them like this is my story
01:04:45
but I tried to keep it very hidden
01:04:48
because I didn't want anybody judge me
01:04:49
judging me. Yeah.
01:04:50
>> They often looked at me and like who's
01:04:52
this good bearded guy in in uni you know
01:04:55
like he he's not our age group.
01:04:57
>> Um so I probably was that person that
01:04:59
was seen as a bit strange and odd but um
01:05:02
nobody found out until a couple of years
01:05:03
later.
01:05:05
>> When was the moment that you realized
01:05:06
your story and your journey could help
01:05:08
others?
01:05:10
Um
01:05:14
probably in my experience with March 15
01:05:16
>> m
01:05:17
>> when the terrorist attack happened and I
01:05:21
started to share my story more. I
01:05:23
noticed that it was helping other
01:05:25
people. Like I'd get messages on my
01:05:26
messenger saying, "Bro, thanks for
01:05:28
sharing your story. I've just come out
01:05:30
of prison. I'm struggling. I don't think
01:05:31
I'm going to be able to make it." like
01:05:34
and when you hear positive affirmations
01:05:36
from people like you're like man I
01:05:38
should continue to keep telling my story
01:05:40
you know and also I found like when I
01:05:42
share my story it gives me
01:05:45
positive affirmations about how far I've
01:05:47
come and how I never want to go back
01:05:49
>> um it's a bit of a selfish thing really
01:05:53
>> yes in March 15 2019 um yeah the day of
01:05:57
the mosque attacks in Christ Church
01:06:00
where were you when you heard the news
01:06:02
>> I was was inside the
01:06:04
university prayer space, the Muslah, and
01:06:09
it was a normal Friday. Like we'd come
01:06:12
out um finished prayer and I looked to
01:06:16
the guy behind me as I turned around to
01:06:17
go outside to meet my wife. The guy
01:06:20
behind me, his face had changed color
01:06:22
and he was looking at his phone and he
01:06:23
was like murmuring stuff. I didn't
01:06:26
understand it. Went outside and heard
01:06:28
other people saying, "There's been a
01:06:29
shooting at the mosque. Shooting at the
01:06:30
mosque." And then my wife came out of
01:06:32
the woman's side and she was like, "Did
01:06:33
you hear?" She almost had like a shock
01:06:35
look on her face as well. Didn't believe
01:06:37
it. Um, and my initial thought, Dom, was
01:06:43
[ __ ] crazy Muslim.
01:06:47
Like I actually thought it was a Muslim
01:06:49
that had gone into the mosque and killed
01:06:51
somebody.
01:06:52
>> And the reason why I know I thought that
01:06:55
way was because in the media, Muslims
01:06:58
were portrayed as being the terrorists.
01:07:01
they were over represented by 400% re
01:07:04
research shows. So I thought that we
01:07:06
were the terrorists, you know, that was
01:07:08
my first initial thought.
01:07:10
>> And then later on we found out that it
01:07:11
was a um white guy and he had his
01:07:14
reasons.
01:07:16
I jumped in the car, go to Mazjidan to
01:07:19
see if I can help, tell my wife to stay
01:07:21
in the library um cuz we didn't know how
01:07:24
many active shooters there were. And um
01:07:27
I go across the masjid and they wouldn't
01:07:28
allow us to go into the masjid and I'm
01:07:30
pacing back and forth with my friends
01:07:31
and on the WhatsApp group you start
01:07:34
hearing names seeing names of people
01:07:36
that you knew that no longer you know
01:07:39
some people that had made it out they
01:07:41
were like messaging like oh this person
01:07:43
didn't make it this person because of
01:07:44
what they had seen
01:07:47
and two of those people that
01:07:50
the names that I heard were Hamza and
01:07:52
Sad two young people who I had the
01:07:54
privilege of mentoring Um, and that was
01:07:57
probably the most difficult
01:07:59
knowing that two young people full of
01:08:01
potential
01:08:02
are just taken away just like that.
01:08:05
>> Because of somebody else's baggage and
01:08:07
their unresolved issues.
01:08:11
>> Yeah. How did how did you feel after
01:08:13
that? Are you familiar with the term
01:08:14
survivors guilt?
01:08:16
>> Yeah.
01:08:17
>> Yeah.
01:08:18
>> There was survivors guilt in the people
01:08:21
that were in the masjid. For me
01:08:23
personally, I I think I was a little bit
01:08:24
detached from it because I wasn't
01:08:26
directly in the masjid, right?
01:08:28
>> Um, so for me it was like how can I
01:08:30
help?
01:08:32
How can I do the most that I can out of
01:08:34
this situation? Went into the burials.
01:08:36
We we conducted the burials
01:08:40
and then coming out like my wife and I
01:08:42
in the first week were sitting in a dark
01:08:44
room and we're thinking to oursel like
01:08:47
how can we use this negative energy
01:08:49
that's around right now? How can we use
01:08:51
this negative energy and use it as fuel
01:08:53
for positive change? And engineering, we
01:08:55
learn about the law, one of the laws of
01:08:57
energy where energy cannot be created
01:08:59
nor destroyed, but it can transform from
01:09:02
one form to another. So like there's
01:09:05
negative energy here. How can we
01:09:06
transform it and use it as fuel? It's
01:09:08
like what would it would be crazy if we
01:09:11
were to honor the 51 lives that were
01:09:13
lost by traveling to Afghanistan,
01:09:15
establishing 51 micro businesses,
01:09:18
changing 51 lives forever, capturing it
01:09:21
on video, coming back and showing the
01:09:23
New Zealand public and the world what
01:09:25
can be possible if you transform
01:09:27
negative energy.
01:09:28
>> Um, and we did that, man. Like me and my
01:09:31
wife, no previous experience with
01:09:33
humanitarian work, had no clue. sat down
01:09:36
in the library, university library, like
01:09:39
made a whole list of people that we
01:09:41
could call call and ask if they would be
01:09:43
willing to support the project. Call
01:09:45
after call after call while I have my
01:09:47
exams. Um, and we made it work, man. We
01:09:51
we started to give a little page,
01:09:53
fundraised about $20,000,
01:09:55
>> as $392 per business,
01:09:58
>> traveled to Afghanistan for a period of
01:09:59
just shy of 3 months on the road every
01:10:02
single day, 15, 16 hour days. Um, and
01:10:05
alhamdulillah made it happen and came
01:10:07
back. Now there's a film that was
01:10:09
recently in cinemas, Project 51.
01:10:11
Beautiful film that captures that story.
01:10:14
>> Um, and we're just so blessed, man, to
01:10:16
have been able to do that.
01:10:18
>> Yeah. The um the money you raised goes a
01:10:20
lot further over there than what it
01:10:22
would in in Christ Church. What are some
01:10:23
of these 51 micro businesses that you
01:10:25
helped set up with that $20,000 you
01:10:27
raised?
01:10:27
>> The most common one would be like a
01:10:29
karach um like a portable car, you know,
01:10:32
on wheels. Recently, I saw one on
01:10:35
Facebook Marketplace. The guy was
01:10:36
selling it for $4 and a half grand. We
01:10:38
were setting it up for like $250 New
01:10:41
Zealand, you know, would get the cart
01:10:43
built for the individual after having
01:10:45
surveyed them, uh would go into the
01:10:48
market, buy them like maybe the fruit or
01:10:50
vegetable that they wanted to sell, be
01:10:52
involved in the entire process because
01:10:54
we didn't want to hand out money. So,
01:10:56
we'd literally go create the little
01:10:58
business for them
01:11:00
>> and off they go. and then would come
01:11:02
back about two weeks later to see how
01:11:04
they're doing and that was it. Um there
01:11:07
was other thing like people would sell
01:11:09
gas, LPG gas. Um women would sell
01:11:13
reusable bags. So we buy them sewing
01:11:15
machine with cloth and they would make
01:11:17
reusable bags cuz um plastic free was a
01:11:20
thing back then. At that time there was
01:11:22
like this whole thing about globally as
01:11:23
well.
01:11:24
>> Um so that was popular as well among the
01:11:27
women.
01:11:27
>> Yeah.
01:11:29
But you have to watch the film to know
01:11:30
more about
01:11:31
>> Yeah. Where can you watch the film?
01:11:32
>> It was in New Zealand cinemas. Now we're
01:11:34
trying to get it into international film
01:11:36
festivals. You can rent it online um if
01:11:39
you look out Project 51, but I would
01:11:42
highly recommend that you book a private
01:11:44
screening with your community or your
01:11:47
family or your organization and go watch
01:11:49
it in a small cinema. The experience is
01:11:51
completely different. M
01:11:52
>> you can reach out to us um and we can
01:11:56
make that happen to have a private
01:11:57
screening.
01:12:00
>> When you were sitting in your um prison
01:12:02
cell at Mount Eden or Spring Hill
01:12:04
Correctional Facility, like did you ever
01:12:06
imagine, you know, you'd be doing
01:12:08
something like this?
01:12:08
>> No, man. No, honestly, how far life has
01:12:11
come is just absolutely crazy. That's
01:12:13
why I'm just so grateful. I'm so so
01:12:15
grateful of everything, you know, to to
01:12:18
to be able to travel the country and and
01:12:20
speak like keynote um sessions and take
01:12:24
my family with me to be able to release
01:12:27
a book and and then a film as well now
01:12:30
and now I'm traveling to a to the Gulf
01:12:32
actually part of a trip that I'm doing
01:12:35
for the organization that I'm leading
01:12:37
called AsterBab. It's a community
01:12:38
organization in Christ Church and our
01:12:40
goal is to build the most impactful,
01:12:42
sustainable, and spiritually uplifted
01:12:44
community in the world. It's a bit of a
01:12:47
huge uh feat, but that is our goal.
01:12:50
>> And to be able to do these things, man,
01:12:52
like alhamdulillah, man. Alhamdulillah.
01:12:54
Like,
01:12:56
>> and and people often think like
01:13:00
like it's so hard to get to a certain
01:13:01
position, right? The first thing is just
01:13:03
making that first step. And like you
01:13:05
said, slowly momentum builds. momentum
01:13:08
builds and in 10 years time you end up
01:13:10
being in a place that's completely
01:13:11
surreal
01:13:12
>> to what you had imagined.
01:13:14
>> Well, I mean your your your own personal
01:13:17
version of rock bottom is deeper than
01:13:19
luckily deeper than what most of us
01:13:21
would get to. But I think this is
01:13:22
inspiring for anyone that's listening to
01:13:24
this now that is uh I don't know
01:13:26
potentially feeling lost or at their own
01:13:28
version of rock bottom that you know
01:13:30
things can get better. But you got no
01:13:31
one else can do the work for you, right?
01:13:32
>> No man. No. And and often times we look
01:13:35
for motivation in others and we look for
01:13:38
external validation and and things that
01:13:40
can quick fix us. It's not going to
01:13:42
work, man. You honestly have to sit
01:13:44
alone with yourself, with your thoughts,
01:13:47
write down what's on your mind, what's
01:13:48
bothering you. What is the one step that
01:13:51
you can take to change one part of your
01:13:53
life? For me, it was like when I was in
01:13:55
prison, I was like, how can I gain
01:13:58
control over myself? So the first thing
01:14:00
I did was I would wake up in the morning
01:14:01
and I'd clean myself spotless.
01:14:04
>> That was the first thing I did and I did
01:14:06
that for a little while. Then it was
01:14:07
train every single day no matter rain or
01:14:09
shine. And just slowly building and
01:14:11
building and building.
01:14:13
>> And we can overwhelm ourselves by saying
01:14:16
[ __ ] there's so much to do. But just
01:14:17
start with the one thing that you can
01:14:19
have control over. Start start gaining
01:14:21
control over yourself. You know cuz
01:14:24
currently like in society everything is
01:14:26
trying to make us not have control. And
01:14:29
I hate to say it this way, but it is the
01:14:31
music we listen to, the food that we
01:14:33
eat, the content that we consume, the
01:14:36
phones that we have, everything is
01:14:37
trying to take control away from us,
01:14:40
>> you know. So, we really need to regain
01:14:42
control.
01:14:43
>> Yeah.
01:14:44
>> Yeah. So, you've mentioned your book a
01:14:46
couple of times. It came out earlier
01:14:47
this year, Beyond Hope.
01:14:48
>> Uh 2024. Yeah.
01:14:50
>> Last year.
01:14:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:51
>> Um if anyone wants to buy that, it's um
01:14:53
still you might find it in some
01:14:55
bookstores, but it's still available
01:14:56
online at, you know, Mighty Ape and Wor
01:14:58
Paper Plus, all those places. Um what
01:15:01
does that phrase mean to you, Beyond
01:15:03
Hope?
01:15:04
>> It means two things actually. It means
01:15:06
one
01:15:08
>> side of it where somebody has lost hope
01:15:10
completely. They're
01:15:13
um they no longer have a future. And
01:15:15
there's the other side where somebody
01:15:17
who has hope and they're seeking beyond
01:15:19
it now. they they're ready to put in the
01:15:21
work and and needing to do what's
01:15:23
necessary to be done. Um and that shows
01:15:27
the the divergence in my story. You
01:15:29
know, I could have gone one way or the
01:15:30
other and alhamdulillah I chose the
01:15:32
other.
01:15:33
>> Um
01:15:34
>> was um when the book came out, what was
01:15:36
that like with like were your were your
01:15:39
parents and everyone close to you aware
01:15:40
of the manuscript or
01:15:45
or what?
01:15:47
>> Look, did you have to have some
01:15:48
difficult conversations? Look, I come
01:15:50
from an Afghan family and if I was to
01:15:53
give the manuscript to my father, he
01:15:55
would redact
01:15:58
he would redact it worse than the NZSIS,
01:16:01
you know. Um, so I didn't actually I I
01:16:04
trusted my judgment. I only gave it to
01:16:06
my my elder sister who I trust. I let
01:16:09
her read it. Um, she gave me some tips
01:16:12
on are you sure you want to talk about
01:16:14
that? Like how do you think it's going
01:16:17
to be perceived by mom and dad? you
01:16:18
know, cuz I I do talk about my abuse in
01:16:20
there.
01:16:21
>> And my father when he read the book,
01:16:23
that was probably the first time that he
01:16:24
found out about it. And he was like
01:16:27
heartbroken,
01:16:28
>> of course.
01:16:29
>> And um I'll never forget the
01:16:31
conversation. Like we sat down and he's
01:16:34
like like why did you why did you say it
01:16:37
in the book? You know, why don't you
01:16:39
like come and tell me?
01:16:41
Um so that was a difficult conversation,
01:16:43
man. And I knew it wasn't going to be
01:16:45
easy, but it wasn't about me. It was
01:16:48
about sharing my story to show people
01:16:50
like, brother, you can be abused. You
01:16:53
can live a difficult life. It's okay.
01:16:55
That is your power. You know, that is
01:16:57
your power. So, if I was to leave that
01:16:59
out, it would have been authentic of me.
01:17:02
>> Yeah.
01:17:04
>> When you look back on on the the the
01:17:06
boy, well, young man who went to jail
01:17:08
and the man who you are now, what's
01:17:10
changed the most?
01:17:11
probably the level of connection that I
01:17:13
have with my creator and the
01:17:17
>> desire of living a purposeful life um
01:17:21
and being intentional with what I do
01:17:24
um that's probably the difference. Yeah.
01:17:28
>> If you could go back and talk to um your
01:17:31
18-year-old self sitting in that Oakland
01:17:33
cell, what would you say to him?
01:17:40
Don't be defined by the system and what
01:17:42
the system boxes you in as or labels you
01:17:45
as.
01:17:46
>> You can define yourself and label
01:17:47
yourself however you like. Put in the
01:17:50
work, my brother. Nobody's going to put
01:17:53
in the work for you. It's not going to
01:17:54
be easy. Start small.
01:17:58
Write down what you achieve. Speak to
01:18:01
yourself. Be kind to yourself. And keep
01:18:04
grinding.
01:18:06
That's what I'll tell you.
01:18:08
>> What does hope mean to you now?
01:18:11
>> It's a bit of a It's almost become a bit
01:18:13
of like a distasteful word really. Hope
01:18:16
um
01:18:19
hope for me means not giving up
01:18:22
>> regardless of the situation.
01:18:25
Um it means that
01:18:28
you can rebuild yourself no matter where
01:18:31
you are in life.
01:18:33
And
01:18:36
I'm big on faith, man. And I and and I
01:18:39
know in this society
01:18:41
where where faith is given like a
01:18:43
negative,
01:18:45
you know,
01:18:48
image
01:18:50
and I know that that's the case and I
01:18:52
know that people don't feel as connected
01:18:53
to to spirituality. And I think that's
01:18:56
one of the biggest problems we have in
01:18:57
society right now, man. And our young
01:19:00
people are not hopeful of their future
01:19:03
because I feel that they're not
01:19:04
spiritually connected. And when
01:19:06
somebody's not spiritually connected and
01:19:08
and has hope of a life after this and
01:19:11
this life gets difficult, why should
01:19:13
they have hope
01:19:15
>> when you can't even afford to live in a
01:19:18
house when your future is undermined by
01:19:21
technology? Like why should you even
01:19:24
have hope? And so I'm like I'm big on
01:19:26
faith and I'm big on spirituality. Like
01:19:28
that is the ultimate power that somebody
01:19:30
can possess within themsel. That's the
01:19:32
ultimate hope that they can have that
01:19:33
this life isn't the end all be all, you
01:19:36
know, like there's a there's a life
01:19:37
after this. Like let's find out what
01:19:39
happens after this life. Um and that's
01:19:42
when you live a truly hopeful life. And
01:19:45
um I'm so blessed to to be in that
01:19:47
position like in 2023 census came out
01:19:51
that
01:19:53
in a uh in a state of in a period of 5
01:19:56
years young people are 50% more of them
01:20:01
are on anti-depressants. Like there's
01:20:03
been a 50% rise in 5 years of young
01:20:06
people being on anti-depressants. That
01:20:08
is concerning man.
01:20:09
>> That is concerning. And I honestly
01:20:11
genuinely feel that the lack of
01:20:13
spirituality and the encouragement in
01:20:15
society for finding a spiritual self has
01:20:19
a lot to do with that because that's
01:20:21
tied into hope in my opinion.
01:20:23
>> Yeah.
01:20:25
>> What are your best and worst habits?
01:20:27
Have you still got any bad habits that
01:20:28
you're trying to conquer?
01:20:30
>> 100%. Like
01:20:31
>> I think we're all constantly a work in
01:20:32
progress.
01:20:33
>> 100% man. That pastry and the psych
01:20:38
that's probably the worst to be honest.
01:20:39
It's like my mornings I'm like black
01:20:41
coffee, no pastry, no pastry. And I I
01:20:44
give into the pastry. But um um other
01:20:48
than that, like like sometimes I miss my
01:20:51
workouts or I say things in a way where
01:20:53
I'm like that's not really how you
01:20:55
should speak, you know.
01:20:56
>> Um maybe the way I act to my children
01:20:59
sometimes
01:21:00
>> and I'm like that's not really an ideal
01:21:02
father. You shouldn't shouldn't act that
01:21:04
way. You shouldn't behave that way. Um,
01:21:06
sometimes the way I act with my with my
01:21:08
wife when I get frustrated and and the
01:21:11
way I speak, I'm like, that's not the
01:21:13
ideal person that I want to be. So, it's
01:21:14
it's a work in progress, man. It's a
01:21:16
work in progress.
01:21:17
>> It seems like you're super conscious and
01:21:19
mindful, though.
01:21:20
>> Yeah. I um like I said initially, that
01:21:22
that's one of the things I appreciate
01:21:24
>> that I do internalize things and and
01:21:26
look at look back at my actions.
01:21:29
>> And I've recently started like before I
01:21:31
go to sleep, I internalize my entire
01:21:33
day. How did I act with some person when
01:21:36
I spoke to someone? Did I make them feel
01:21:39
a certain way? How could I have handled
01:21:40
a situation better? What are the things
01:21:42
that I did good in my life in that day?
01:21:45
And it really helps set the tone for the
01:21:47
next day. And I'm more aware. And I'm
01:21:48
more aware.
01:21:49
>> How old are your boys now?
01:21:51
>> One's five and one's two. And they're
01:21:53
both recently bold.
01:21:56
>> Recently what?
01:21:56
>> Bold.
01:21:57
>> Oh, really?
01:21:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I shaved their head
01:22:00
cuz my older one went into the
01:22:02
>> drawer and he shaved his brother's head
01:22:05
um partially and there was no way we
01:22:07
could save it. So I shaved both of them.
01:22:09
They look very strange.
01:22:10
>> Was that like punishment?
01:22:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. So you both have to be in it
01:22:15
together, you know.
01:22:16
>> You didn't feel like joining them for
01:22:18
solidarity.
01:22:19
>> No. No, definitely not. I'm going to the
01:22:21
golf and I and I'm going to be having
01:22:22
some meetings. So I was like my my wife
01:22:25
actually proposed it to I was like, "No,
01:22:27
I'm definitely not going into a meeting
01:22:28
bold."
01:22:29
>> Okay. So, they're still they're still
01:22:30
very young. Um, is it something you've
01:22:33
discussed with your wife when when you
01:22:34
tell them your story?
01:22:37
>> Yeah, man. I think when they get to a
01:22:38
certain age, they would read my book.
01:22:41
Um, and I'll have really good
01:22:43
conversations with them.
01:22:45
>> The thing that I want my children to
01:22:47
know is that me and them have a really
01:22:49
solid relationship. No matter what
01:22:51
they're going through, they could always
01:22:52
come back to me. That was something I
01:22:54
didn't have with my parents because of
01:22:56
the shame that I felt or the lack of
01:22:58
connection. Um, and I don't want that
01:23:00
for my son because I know he's going to
01:23:02
go through [ __ ] And you need someone
01:23:04
solid to be with you when you go through
01:23:06
that stuff. Um, and I want to be that
01:23:08
person for my children, you know.
01:23:11
>> Are you good with vulnerability now and
01:23:13
having open conversations? from what
01:23:15
you've said before about, you know, not
01:23:17
um sharing the manuscript with your
01:23:19
parents and not telling them much of
01:23:21
what's going on. I think I know the
01:23:22
answer to this, but is it something
01:23:23
you're working on or you getting better
01:23:25
at? Have you got some good friends that
01:23:26
you can
01:23:28
>> man? You you always need a couple of
01:23:30
people that you know are solid.
01:23:32
>> Um that when you're being too
01:23:34
vulnerable, they're like, "Brother, what
01:23:35
are you doing? Like, sort your [ __ ]
01:23:36
out." You know, cuz you don't want to be
01:23:38
too ah guys, like you don't want to be
01:23:40
like that, too. You've got stuff to do
01:23:42
as as a man in particular. like you have
01:23:44
to do things. And um I do have those
01:23:47
friends, you know,
01:23:49
>> that I can open up to to a degree
01:23:51
>> and they'll tell me how it is.
01:23:53
>> And we're we're bound by our faith.
01:23:55
>> Yeah. That's cool.
01:23:56
>> Yeah, man.
01:23:57
>> What are you most afraid of?
01:24:02
living my life
01:24:05
thinking that I was doing the right
01:24:06
thing
01:24:07
>> and then realizing that the intention
01:24:11
that I had for it wasn't actually for
01:24:13
the right reasons
01:24:14
>> and I lived for the wrong reasons not
01:24:17
knowing and I die as a hypocrite.
01:24:22
>> Do you feel like you're on the right
01:24:23
track now?
01:24:25
>> I hope so, man. I hope so. I'm trying.
01:24:27
>> Um I'm constantly checking my intentions
01:24:29
like why am I doing this? Why am I here
01:24:32
on this podcast, you know? Um, and my
01:24:36
ultimate intention is to do it to to to
01:24:40
um to please my creator
01:24:43
>> and do it for that reason because that's
01:24:44
the ultimate reason for me.
01:24:46
>> Um,
01:24:48
>> yeah, man.
01:24:49
>> Yeah. What does Allah mean to you? Allah
01:24:52
was like a dirty word for a while after
01:24:54
9/11. Like it was quite triggering for
01:24:57
people. But is Yeah. Who is Allah? Is he
01:24:59
forgiving? Allah and and Jihad as well.
01:25:02
Jihad's another one. Jihad. It's like
01:25:05
it's just been imprinted in everyone's
01:25:06
mind.
01:25:07
>> Well, there's a New Zealand rock band
01:25:08
called Jihad and they were trying to
01:25:10
break into the American market and uh
01:25:11
the the record label made them change
01:25:13
their name because they're like, "It
01:25:14
sounds too much like Jihad. It's going
01:25:16
to be offputting to people." It's crazy
01:25:18
when you look back. It's a crazy time.
01:25:19
>> Isn't the lead singer now Muslim?
01:25:21
>> Yeah, he's Yeah. Yeah, he is. He is.
01:25:23
He's married.
01:25:24
>> Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting.
01:25:26
Um uh
01:25:29
Allah for me means the most merciful,
01:25:32
the most compassionate. Like when we
01:25:34
recite the Quran, we saymane.
01:25:38
That's the first thing you have to say
01:25:39
when you recite the Quran. And it's in
01:25:41
the name of Allah, the most
01:25:42
compassionate, most merciful. That's how
01:25:44
you start your connection with Allah,
01:25:48
with God. Um, and then the next thing
01:25:51
you say is alhamdulillah.
01:25:54
All praise due to Allah, you know, Lord
01:25:58
of the world. It's like
01:26:00
the way religion is being portrayed and
01:26:03
Islam in particular is completely the
01:26:05
opposite. It's completely the opposite.
01:26:07
Like if you were to know Islam really in
01:26:10
depth, not Muslims, cuz Muslims get it
01:26:12
wrong. Let me tell you this straight up.
01:26:14
Like there are a lot of Muslims, myself
01:26:16
included, we don't live by the way we
01:26:18
should be and we make mistakes. But
01:26:20
Islam itself, like if you were to go
01:26:22
into it, you' be like, "Man, this is
01:26:24
such a complete way of life. This is so
01:26:26
beautiful." And that's why I get upset
01:26:28
when people start judging Islam without
01:26:30
actually even knowing about it. You
01:26:32
know, there's recently like we've we've
01:26:33
got Tongan, Smons, Mai coming into
01:26:36
Islam. Like eight people become Muslim
01:26:39
per day in New Zealand. Not many people
01:26:41
notice. And they're all um like new
01:26:44
Muslims. Parkiha. and they come they
01:26:47
they search about they're like wait this
01:26:48
is what I was told on the media this is
01:26:51
completely wrong like jihad means to
01:26:54
struggle
01:26:55
it doesn't only mean to go and fight in
01:26:58
the way of God defending yourself means
01:26:59
to struggle like me battling my soul my
01:27:02
nuffs my gollum in prison that was jihad
01:27:06
>> you know but we don't look at it that
01:27:09
way and and then we have certain people
01:27:11
come out and use people's vulnerability
01:27:14
and their susceptibility to fear fear
01:27:16
and they incite hatred and they incite
01:27:18
violence and next thing you know people
01:27:20
are acting out in ways and they don't
01:27:21
even know why they're acting out that
01:27:22
way
01:27:24
>> you know um and and we're seeing it
01:27:26
overseas like people becoming fearful of
01:27:28
Islam but just read into it man like
01:27:31
we're not here to take over like Muslim
01:27:33
like people think that Islam's here to
01:27:35
take over somehow like in that
01:27:37
>> Islam is a for us is a complete way of
01:27:39
life come into it see it and if you like
01:27:42
it adopt it if you don't you be you and
01:27:45
We be us, you know.
01:27:47
>> I I think a lot of people just fear
01:27:48
things they don't understand.
01:27:50
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:27:50
>> But if you I mean the solution to that
01:27:52
is take a bit of time to understand it.
01:27:54
>> 100% man. 100%. You have to be careful
01:27:56
though because your algorithm might take
01:27:59
you down a path that isn't true Islam.
01:28:02
So you have to also be careful about
01:28:04
that. Read certain books that are, you
01:28:07
know, like or even just pick up the
01:28:09
Quran and and read it yourself
01:28:11
>> um rather than being told about it from
01:28:13
other people.
01:28:14
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:28:15
>> What about you, Dom? Do you have like a
01:28:17
connection to God?
01:28:20
>> I was um born and raised um in a
01:28:22
Catholic household and we went to church
01:28:24
every weekend. I I'd say I'm sort of
01:28:26
agnostic at the moment.
01:28:28
>> Um when I was old enough to make my own
01:28:29
decisions, I just realized, you know,
01:28:31
you can you can you can you can be a
01:28:32
[ __ ] and go to church every weekend
01:28:34
or you can be a good person and not go
01:28:36
to church every weekend.
01:28:37
>> So, yeah, I'm just sort of um in the
01:28:40
middle now.
01:28:41
>> Yeah. What do you think happens when we
01:28:42
die? Oh, you're going to hate me. I
01:28:45
think that's it.
01:28:46
>> I think I think we're like a we're like
01:28:47
a computer dead. That's it.
01:28:50
>> What? No, but that that's why like um I
01:28:53
want to live my life as good as what I
01:28:54
can now because this might be all there
01:28:56
is.
01:28:56
>> It'll be a wonderful surprise if there's
01:28:58
something else.
01:28:59
>> Yeah.
01:28:59
>> If there's a if there's a heaven or an
01:29:01
afterlife. Yeah. What What do you think?
01:29:03
What do you think afterlife is? What do
01:29:05
you think it looks like?
01:29:06
>> We believe that there's forever after
01:29:08
this. This life is just a test. This
01:29:10
this life is not the end all be all. You
01:29:12
have to be the best person that you can
01:29:14
be so that when you go into the
01:29:16
afterlife you can live a good life and
01:29:18
the afterlife is free from envy,
01:29:20
jealousy, hatred, all these things,
01:29:22
these limited things that we have as
01:29:24
human beings. You're free from that in
01:29:26
the afterlife. Um, so this life is a
01:29:29
test for us and I'm not living this life
01:29:32
for me only,
01:29:34
>> you know, and that's one of the faults
01:29:36
that I see with not believing in the
01:29:38
afterlife because you can live for
01:29:39
yourself and for you it might be you be
01:29:42
a good person, right? To somebody else
01:29:43
it might be like well for me like I want
01:29:46
to abuse children because I get
01:29:48
satisfaction from that and that's the
01:29:50
only life I have so I'm just going to do
01:29:52
what I need to do to feel like I'm
01:29:54
satisfied from life. That's a scary
01:29:56
thing.
01:29:57
>> Yeah.
01:29:57
>> There's like no boundaries at all. And
01:30:00
that's something that I struggled with
01:30:02
before coming into my faith. There was
01:30:03
no boundaries.
01:30:06
>> And and if we don't have boundaries as
01:30:08
society, like we're in trouble, man.
01:30:10
We're going to have a very difficult
01:30:11
life. And if we like just go by off the
01:30:14
laws that we have, laws change,
01:30:18
>> you know. Um, so I would highly
01:30:21
encourage people like I know we've got
01:30:23
negative perceptions like you know it's
01:30:25
been on the news especially with
01:30:27
Christianity like Christianity has been
01:30:28
attacked a lot
01:30:29
>> I'll be honest like in movies and stuff
01:30:32
Christianity is portrayed as like a
01:30:34
pedophile like like the priests being
01:30:36
pedophiles and stuff like that and this
01:30:38
leaves a bad imprint on on people and
01:30:40
yes there have been cases most
01:30:42
definitely but this leaves a bad imprint
01:30:44
and people don't want to lean into it
01:30:47
and be like what does relig religion
01:30:48
teach? What does spirituality teach? We
01:30:51
can actually learn a lot, man. So, I
01:30:52
would encourage you, bro. Like, I know
01:30:55
you're probably living your best life.
01:30:58
But there's a Kiwi saying, man. You
01:31:00
can't knock it till you try.
01:31:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
01:31:02
>> So, you have to look into it, man. You
01:31:04
have to look into consider
01:31:08
different religions as doors. Some doors
01:31:11
might lead you to nowhere and you go
01:31:12
into it be like, "No, this doesn't
01:31:14
really feel like anything there." Keep
01:31:17
opening the doors.
01:31:19
>> Once you've finished completing all the
01:31:20
doors, then you can be like, okay, I'm
01:31:22
agnostic. There isn't anything out there
01:31:24
for me. But but if you haven't actually
01:31:27
opened those doors and gone in and seen,
01:31:30
is there anything here? Can can this be
01:31:31
a better way of life for me? Can I feel
01:31:34
more spiritually connected and and at
01:31:35
ease and lack of anxiety and everything
01:31:37
else?
01:31:38
>> Then you can be like, okay, I'm
01:31:40
agnostic, you know? But until then, man,
01:31:42
don't knock it till you try it.
01:31:43
>> Okay. I can I can tell you
01:31:45
>> don't mean to be preachy. Don't be the
01:31:47
one thing I said I said I'm going to
01:31:48
come here and I'm not going to be
01:31:49
preachy but it's hard man. Yeah I know
01:31:52
cuz I I and I can understand cuz it's
01:31:54
like you see the value that it's brought
01:31:56
you alive and you just want to share it.
01:31:57
It's like
01:31:58
>> so much valuable man.
01:31:59
>> Um I can tell you for me it won't be
01:32:01
Muslim. It's too hard. Ramadan how many
01:32:03
times a day do you have to pray?
01:32:04
>> Brother people already fast like it's
01:32:07
become a trend now. I do intermittent
01:32:10
fasting brother. We we fast 30 days a
01:32:13
year, cleanse our body, not only
01:32:15
physically cleans cleanse oursel
01:32:17
mentally as well.
01:32:18
>> The things that you're hooked on to the
01:32:20
pastry that I like in the mornings, I
01:32:22
can't have that in the morning for 30
01:32:24
days. You know, it's like a reset.
01:32:26
>> Um there's so much benefits out of
01:32:28
fasting that that that we're seeing now.
01:32:31
>> And hard things are good for you. You
01:32:32
know that, man.
01:32:33
>> I suppose 30 days without a pastry,
01:32:35
that's easy after doing 11 months
01:32:36
without a pastry when you're in Spring
01:32:38
Hill.
01:32:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you have any
01:32:40
regrets?
01:32:47
>> It's funny how I know I know there are
01:32:48
things in your past that you probably do
01:32:50
regret, but also there comes a point
01:32:52
where you probably have to let that go.
01:32:53
>> That's the thing. Yeah. I I actually
01:32:55
don't like I don't have any regrets. And
01:32:57
that's part of the forgiveness, right?
01:32:58
Like
01:32:59
>> I've made amends and I've moved on now.
01:33:02
Um
01:33:03
>> I regret not having more children at a
01:33:05
younger age. I think
01:33:07
>> it's the way
01:33:08
>> I wish I could start it earlier.
01:33:10
>> Um, me and my wife didn't have kids up
01:33:12
until like 3 years after our marriage.
01:33:14
>> Um, I really like children. Like I've
01:33:17
realized that I love children, man. Like
01:33:18
my boys when when we're like playing and
01:33:21
and connecting and stuff. It's the most
01:33:22
wholesome relationship that you can
01:33:24
have. So,
01:33:26
>> um, yeah, definitely going to have more
01:33:28
kids in.
01:33:29
>> Cool. What about future goals? Where do
01:33:32
you see yourself at? 40, 50. Have you
01:33:34
thought that far ahead? No, I haven't.
01:33:36
So, the most pressing goal that I have
01:33:38
right now is leading this organization
01:33:40
AST lab and making it the most
01:33:42
sustainable community
01:33:45
um driven impactful community.
01:33:48
>> Um I'm traveling to the Gulf going to
01:33:50
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, UAE,
01:33:55
and Estanul and meeting with different
01:33:58
people to try and learn and see how we
01:34:00
can implement a a sustainable community
01:34:03
here in New Zealand. that is so
01:34:05
beneficial outside of the masjid walls
01:34:08
that is beneficial to everyday New
01:34:10
Zealanders where they see the real Islam
01:34:12
where they're like man Islam is so
01:34:13
beautiful this isn't what we were told
01:34:16
you know that is what we're trying to do
01:34:17
we're trying to change narratives so
01:34:19
that is my goal because I see the
01:34:22
negativity that's out there against
01:34:24
Muslims and I know where that's going to
01:34:26
lead to like it's going to become a very
01:34:28
polarized place for Muslims if a
01:34:31
counternarrative isn't built and that's
01:34:33
what we're trying to do We're trying to
01:34:34
build a counternarrative
01:34:36
um by establishing the enlightened city.
01:34:41
>> I'm so excited to see what the future
01:34:42
brings.
01:34:43
>> I'm excited
01:34:44
>> from from 10 years ago to now like um
01:34:46
yeah, it's going to be so interesting to
01:34:48
see where you are in like another 10
01:34:49
years from now.
01:34:50
>> Yeah, same man. I've been I've been
01:34:52
reached out to by like I wouldn't say
01:34:54
the political party, but they're like,
01:34:56
"Have you thought about getting into
01:34:57
politics?" Like um but no, man. Like
01:35:01
politics and stuff, no. I think it has
01:35:03
to be from the community level. It has
01:35:05
to be grassroots.
01:35:07
>> You can really create a impactful
01:35:09
community from grassroots level. Um be
01:35:13
self- sustaining. You're not depending
01:35:14
on money from the government through
01:35:16
government funding. You're really
01:35:18
generating your own revenue and
01:35:20
supporting your own community. M
01:35:23
>> um this is going to be hopefully decades
01:35:26
from now, but um imagine imagine you've
01:35:29
passed away and you're lying in your
01:35:30
coffin and your wife and two kids and
01:35:33
maybe any future kids are standing
01:35:35
around. What three words would you like
01:35:37
them to use to describe you and the way
01:35:40
you lived your life as a man?
01:35:46
Strong, impactful Muslim.
01:35:50
That's how I want them to describe me.
01:35:52
Strong, impactful Muslim.
01:35:55
>> Yeah.
01:35:56
>> Are you proud of yourself?
01:35:58
>> Alhamdulillah, man. All praise due to
01:36:00
Allah. I am proud of of how far I've
01:36:04
come.
01:36:04
>> Definitely. And I don't take any credit
01:36:07
for myself at all. Like, if it wasn't
01:36:10
for God's grace of taking me taking me
01:36:12
down the direction,
01:36:14
>> um I would not be here, man. I I'm not
01:36:16
one of those guys that come out and try
01:36:18
to be the guru that tells people like
01:36:21
you can do it all and this and it's all
01:36:22
on you and this and I truly believe like
01:36:25
you have to connect yourself spiritually
01:36:27
and God will take care of you.
01:36:28
>> You put in the effort but God will take
01:36:30
care of you.
01:36:31
>> Um so I'm proud man. Alhamdulillah.
01:36:34
>> Dom it's really good to I I actually had
01:36:37
more questions that I wanted to ask you
01:36:38
but you were like very
01:36:41
>> with the question keep it moving. You
01:36:42
can't hit a moving target.
01:36:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. Damn it. I I missed out. I
01:36:46
was trying to I was trying to convert
01:36:47
you.
01:36:50
>> Hey, this is this has been great. This
01:36:52
has been great. Um Yeah. Is Is this Is
01:36:54
it Is it what you expected when you
01:36:56
reached out to me?
01:36:58
>> Yeah, man. Honestly, like like when I
01:37:01
was a 15year-old, bro, I'll be honest.
01:37:05
I hated people that look like you, you
01:37:07
know? Um like I had this resentment
01:37:10
towards the white man. And it took me
01:37:13
time to get away from that and to
01:37:15
realize like we're all human beings,
01:37:17
man.
01:37:17
>> We're all human beings. Nobody here in
01:37:20
this world is perfect. Everyone is
01:37:23
trying to do what they can.
01:37:25
>> Um
01:37:27
and uh it's really good to have that
01:37:29
conversation with you, man. Because when
01:37:30
I was in school, I was expelled from
01:37:33
school from, you know, my principles
01:37:34
that look like you. Um and police
01:37:37
officers that lock me up that look like
01:37:38
you. But it's really good to sit down
01:37:41
here 10 years on
01:37:45
>> seeing life completely different and to
01:37:48
genuinely have a good conversation.
01:37:52
>> Well, I I can honestly say um not when I
01:37:54
was 15, but let's say 10 15 years ago. I
01:37:58
suppose when you were 15. If I was on a
01:38:00
plane and someone like you walked in, I
01:38:01
would have been terrorist. Yeah. I would
01:38:03
have been a little bit nervous. I mean,
01:38:04
oh, I got to keep an eye on that guy. I
01:38:06
I I think back now and it's I think a
01:38:08
lot of people were the same. Maybe a lot
01:38:10
of people wouldn't admit that, but a lot
01:38:11
of us were the same. And it's
01:38:12
conditioning from the 9/11 attacks. And
01:38:14
uh I'm embarrassed I'm embarrassed to
01:38:17
look back and think that I thought that
01:38:18
way.
01:38:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Look, I I don't blame people
01:38:21
for that. Like
01:38:23
it's
01:38:25
pattern recognition, right? So when the
01:38:27
news is telling you that this is the
01:38:28
pattern, this is the pattern, this is
01:38:30
the pattern, you're going to feel that
01:38:31
way when you're out in society. It's a
01:38:33
survival thing. Um I get it sometimes
01:38:36
again like I'm in the I'm in the plane
01:38:38
sometimes and like before the plane
01:38:40
takes off I do like a dua. I do like a
01:38:42
supplication, you know? Um I pray and
01:38:45
maybe I have my prayer beads sometimes
01:38:47
and I'm just doing my prayer beads and
01:38:50
uh people looking at me like, "Yo, who
01:38:52
this guy is?
01:38:55
Double check this guy.
01:38:57
>> Screen him again. Screen him again.
01:38:59
>> Not anymore though. Not anymore.
01:39:00
>> You still get those looks, man. You
01:39:02
still get those looks people.
01:39:04
>> Yeah, it's definitely old people. It's
01:39:05
it's the people that have been
01:39:06
conditioned. That's what I'm saying.
01:39:07
That's why I feel sorry for them.
01:39:09
>> Uh younger people don't act that way
01:39:12
anymore. They've got social media.
01:39:13
They've they've been exposed to the
01:39:15
truth.
01:39:16
>> And um but it's it's definitely the
01:39:19
boomers. It's like the older older um
01:39:21
generation. Well, Bice, this has been
01:39:24
fantastic. It's been really cool. I
01:39:25
really appreciate you coming on. Um,
01:39:28
>> especially um, being so open about some
01:39:30
of the crunchy stuff of your life, which
01:39:32
I'm sure it's not nice to revisit.
01:39:34
>> Um, but it's been a really cool chat and
01:39:36
I hope a lot of people get a lot from
01:39:37
this conversation.
01:39:38
>> Likewise, man, I'm really glad the
01:39:40
trajectory that you're on as well, um,
01:39:42
what you're trying to do with Pod Lab
01:39:44
and, um, you know, the authenticity that
01:39:47
you're trying to live out your life. I
01:39:50
appreciate that and I wish you all the
01:39:51
best my brother and uh big shout out to
01:39:53
James as well, James Lachland for being
01:39:56
the connect between us um and the
01:39:58
mutual. So yeah, man. Wish you all the
01:40:00
best my brother.
01:40:01
>> Yeah, that's that's one thing I love
01:40:02
about this podcast. Like it's um open so
01:40:05
many doors to meet so many cool people.
01:40:07
>> I love it.
01:40:08
>> But you're a great Kiwi brother.
01:40:10
>> Thank you. Appreciate it, my man.