00:00:00
When were you last truly scared?
00:00:01
>> Feel it all the time.
00:00:02
>> So, you're sleeping at night and then
00:00:04
>> I heard a whole heap of noises that in
00:00:06
my sleepy state I thought were foxes
00:00:08
barking. Do foxes bark? Do we have foxes
00:00:10
here? The foxes barking were a bunch of
00:00:12
lads. 38 of them counted
00:00:13
>> three versus 38.
00:00:15
>> Full armed. Yeah. Heavy armed. One of
00:00:18
the team members basically signaled that
00:00:19
they were taking us to make a bad video
00:00:21
of us. Videos of decapitation were one
00:00:23
of those things that had exchanged
00:00:24
between waring parties to state
00:00:26
commitment to what the mission is.
00:00:27
>> Were you at peace with death that day? I
00:00:29
don't think you can really be at peace
00:00:31
with death at any point, can you?
00:00:32
Dragged into the minefields that we
00:00:34
thought were there to protect us. There
00:00:35
was a couple of inshallah moments which
00:00:37
is like, you know, if it goes, it goes.
00:00:38
The last man, who was the leader of the
00:00:40
group, pulled out a camera and said,
00:00:41
"I'm just going to ask you a few
00:00:43
questions." What I imagine there for a
00:00:44
second was that's it. They're going to
00:00:46
do that final act in front of all eyes.
00:00:48
They've got the camera and they're going
00:00:50
to
00:00:50
>> That must be the most frightening thing
00:00:51
that's ever happened in your life
00:00:52
though, right?
00:00:53
>> We were held hostage and then released.
00:00:54
He said, "Did you follow drill?"
00:00:58
>> Oh, good. you here. Come on. This is the
00:01:00
center of performance. Whenever there's
00:01:02
a top performance in New Zealand, it all
00:01:04
comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington.
00:01:06
She's been doing that for days. That's
00:01:09
the boys who got the hole in one in
00:01:13
it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:15
performance going?
00:01:15
>> Top tier.
00:01:16
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:18
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:20
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:21
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:01:24
>> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:26
>> Putting performance first. Dr. B, Dr.
00:01:29
Alia Bojalova, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:32
>> Well, thank you, kind sir. Can I just
00:01:33
keep calling you Professor D from now
00:01:35
on?
00:01:36
>> Yeah. Well, you sent me a text this
00:01:37
morning. I Why I messaged you asking you
00:01:39
what coffee you wanted. Um, and you text
00:01:41
back calling me Professor D, and I was
00:01:42
like, "Oh, I I could get used to this.
00:01:44
Do
00:01:44
>> you love it? Do you love it?
00:01:45
>> I did love it. It played to my ego."
00:01:48
>> You're welcome. You're welcome.
00:01:49
>> Um, so it's so wonderful to have you
00:01:51
here on the podcast. You and I um have
00:01:53
only met once before. That was briefly
00:01:55
at um a mutual friend of ours, James
00:01:57
Lachland. Um he had this
00:01:59
>> high performance workshop thing in
00:02:01
Christ Church and uh um I was um a
00:02:04
speaker that day. So was um Samuel
00:02:06
Whitlock, the famous all black and
00:02:07
yourself. And I was suffering severe
00:02:10
imposter syndrome and rightfully so. I
00:02:12
had no no right being there amongst um
00:02:15
yourself and Samuel. It was it was
00:02:17
crazy. I I found I found your session so
00:02:19
inspiring.
00:02:20
>> Did you? Honestly, that means the world.
00:02:23
See, this is the trouble of you being
00:02:24
popular is that you don't realize I've
00:02:26
spent so much of my youth watching you,
00:02:28
particularly because you interviewed my
00:02:30
long-suffering husband, you see. So,
00:02:32
yeah, that's cool. But no, it's it was
00:02:34
an amazing amazing privilege to be
00:02:36
>> in the same space as you and ponder on
00:02:38
some wicked questions. It was awesome.
00:02:42
>> Yeah. The one thing which I I I wrote
00:02:43
this on my hand at the time and then I
00:02:45
forgot uh when I got to the effort I
00:02:47
forgot what it was but it was um
00:02:48
something to do with um a tool for
00:02:50
having difficult conversations called
00:02:51
the connect five.
00:02:52
>> Connect five. Yes. Was that a thing or
00:02:54
>> that is a thing that is a tool we love
00:02:56
this tool. It's a basic tool we started
00:03:00
playing with some time back. We being
00:03:01
the team that I work with. Um and
00:03:03
effectively it's an opportunity to shift
00:03:05
perspective on something that you might
00:03:07
have accepted as a given. You know, all
00:03:09
of us have a plethora of triggers and
00:03:12
things that affect us on a daily basis
00:03:14
and our beautiful minds grow attached to
00:03:16
that stuff. The story we tell ourselves
00:03:18
around just why we should continue to be
00:03:21
miserable. Connect 5 is a really basic
00:03:23
tool, one of many, um, that we used to
00:03:25
help shift minds and at least tempt us
00:03:28
into the possibility that there is a
00:03:30
different way to view a situation you
00:03:31
consider fixed.
00:03:33
I mean, I can think of million
00:03:35
situations, but one I refuse to change
00:03:38
are some of the triggers I experience at
00:03:39
home, you know. So, it's just one of
00:03:40
those things. It's um it's a Yeah, it's
00:03:43
a cool little tool. Good on you for
00:03:44
remembering it.
00:03:45
>> Yeah. This is going to be Oh, yeah.
00:03:47
Well, for anyone that that is not
00:03:48
familiar with it, like how would is how
00:03:50
would you describe it? How can people
00:03:51
that are listening to this implement it
00:03:53
into their everyday life?
00:03:54
>> We might have to share it with everyone
00:03:55
afterwards. Okay. But effectively, I
00:03:57
mean, if you imagine, if you imagine
00:03:59
yourself, the vast majority of us
00:04:00
consciously or otherwise are traversing
00:04:02
our lives and our days, feeling as if we
00:04:05
might encounter another wet Wednesday
00:04:07
morning. It's that repeated negative
00:04:10
narrative we tell ourselves about our
00:04:12
lives because we tend to live relatively
00:04:14
predictable lives on a day-to-day basis,
00:04:17
we get to encounter the same triggers
00:04:18
often, right? And so you notice
00:04:21
something that has become um a familiar
00:04:24
kind of niggle, a trigger. Your job is
00:04:28
to acknowledge and recognize how your
00:04:30
body thinks, feels and acts when they
00:04:32
encounter it. The repeated narrative
00:04:34
that you have given yourself and then to
00:04:36
tempt yourself to start with the end in
00:04:37
mind. So if this thing was a no factor
00:04:40
or if it was indeed something that gave
00:04:42
you an opportunity to um engage with
00:04:44
your day with sense of joviality,
00:04:47
lightness, joyfulness, happiness,
00:04:50
excitement, what would it look like? And
00:04:52
as a consequence, how do you need to
00:04:54
think, feel, and act? It sounds like a
00:04:56
very robotic and far too difficult of an
00:04:59
exercise to conduct, but it's not.
00:05:00
Because the more you tempt your mind
00:05:02
into reconsidering your pattern of
00:05:04
thinking, feeling, and action, the more
00:05:06
likely you become to get tempted into
00:05:08
these spaces of in between, as I like to
00:05:11
call them. At the very least, if you're
00:05:13
not prepared to go from the dark side of
00:05:15
the continuum, which is I'm just a
00:05:16
grumpy beer, to a mega energized
00:05:19
individual, at the very least, what you
00:05:21
can do is practice creating kind of
00:05:24
resilient neutrality, which is watch
00:05:27
this thing, observe it, study it. Study
00:05:29
it without allowing yourself to react.
00:05:32
You can respond if you want to, but you
00:05:34
don't have to react. And even that is a
00:05:36
big deal. M
00:05:37
>> you know I spend so much of my time as a
00:05:40
psychologist
00:05:42
in the stories that people weave about
00:05:44
stuff about themselves about the world
00:05:47
and often times there are so many I mean
00:05:50
our narratives look complete because we
00:05:52
keep packing in all sorts of
00:05:54
confirmation biases into the lines but
00:05:57
they seldom are and it's the hardest
00:05:59
thing to do right I mean how cool is
00:06:00
that you can change the story that you
00:06:03
tell yourself on a daily trouble is is
00:06:05
that we are really attached to it you
00:06:06
know like there's this big screaming
00:06:09
vulnerable ego that all of us have, you
00:06:12
know, under layers and layers of
00:06:13
protection. So,
00:06:14
>> yeah,
00:06:16
>> this is going to be an amazing
00:06:17
conversation. I'm so excited. Um I've
00:06:19
put so much thought into like where to
00:06:21
start and how to structure it and where
00:06:23
to go because there's um just so many
00:06:25
facets to your story. Reality TV star
00:06:28
being one of them.
00:06:29
>> Yeah, I know.
00:06:30
>> But that feels like the most trivial
00:06:32
part of the um you of your story.
00:06:35
>> It's crazy. Um the the first thing I
00:06:38
wanted to know is um you know your work
00:06:40
these days um you you work with elite
00:06:43
athletes, CEOs, creatives, all these
00:06:45
different things. Um yeah, what do all
00:06:49
these people have in common when they're
00:06:50
struggling?
00:06:51
>> The humans. The humans that are
00:06:54
experiencing a situation or conditions
00:06:56
they consider to be either intolerable
00:06:59
or something that pushes them way past
00:07:01
the point of flexibility. Now some of
00:07:03
these individuals, teams and
00:07:05
organizations find themselves in these
00:07:07
places by the ownition. They seek to
00:07:09
find what we call the spinning edge of
00:07:11
possibilities. I work with a lot of
00:07:13
entrepreneurial entities and a lot of um
00:07:16
individuals who either haven't realized
00:07:18
that there is a predictable cadence of
00:07:20
life to follow or have decided to go
00:07:22
completely anti-establishment and do
00:07:24
something exceptional as a consequence.
00:07:25
The best kind of a beer you want to work
00:07:27
with. But inevitably, you kind of come
00:07:30
to this place where like you're on the
00:07:32
edge of something. You don't know what
00:07:34
to do with the next step, but you kind
00:07:35
of have to take it. So my job is to help
00:07:38
build the confidence and self-efficacy
00:07:40
of just what's possible. And sometimes
00:07:42
it basically means that we have to
00:07:44
summon a whole heap of minds around the
00:07:46
wicked issue and take a very pragmatic,
00:07:48
practical, almost dull-like approach.
00:07:51
Sometimes it just basically means that
00:07:53
we build it as we fly. Well, actually
00:07:55
always means we build it as we fly
00:07:57
because a play in spaces where the
00:08:01
script is seldom in existence. So we
00:08:04
create it as we go.
00:08:05
>> And that's and that's the beauty, right?
00:08:06
Like so you like you seldom have an
00:08:08
opportunity to do the most pragmatic
00:08:11
in the same breath as focusing on stuff
00:08:14
we consider fluffy, but it's not
00:08:16
purpose, you know, mission, vision, that
00:08:18
kind of stuff. and reorient minds and
00:08:20
extend possibilities within their own
00:08:22
perception of just how much better they
00:08:24
can be. Yesterday I was with collection
00:08:27
of leaders in sports in New Zealand
00:08:30
sports. The same stuff applies to them
00:08:33
as it does in my conversation this
00:08:34
morning with leaders in venture as it
00:08:37
does in a not for profofit space. And I
00:08:39
like I mean you said reality TV star
00:08:42
when I left the military my favorite
00:08:45
mentor said to me don't you get stuck in
00:08:47
a suit and I spent yons he probably just
00:08:50
said it as like a throwing comment um
00:08:52
but I spent ages in a typical fashion
00:08:55
like laboring over this statement and I
00:08:58
made it my purpose to ensure that my
00:09:00
craft is practiced in every context and
00:09:03
then I show up and prepare to be
00:09:05
surprised and shocked by how different
00:09:07
humans are. They're not
00:09:08
cross-culturally, cross contextually, we
00:09:10
sell same have we have the same needs,
00:09:12
you know.
00:09:13
>> Yeah.
00:09:14
>> With with with what you're doing now.
00:09:16
Um, yeah. You mentioned before your
00:09:18
long-suffering husband. Uh, Jamie Panel,
00:09:20
serviceman Jay had a great book out.
00:09:22
I've had him on the podcast. So, he's
00:09:24
former SAS, your former SAS
00:09:26
psychologist.
00:09:27
>> Yeah.
00:09:27
>> Does um does life lack excitement now?
00:09:32
There were times, do you know only of
00:09:34
recent, it's been what, 5 years since
00:09:35
Jamie stepped out as a full-time officer
00:09:37
and probably about 10. So I'm still
00:09:39
reservest um but it's probably taken us
00:09:43
the first couple of years to stop
00:09:45
pretending that we are good at normal
00:09:48
life. You know what I mean? Like we we
00:09:50
took a hot second to kind of go what
00:09:52
what is this thing? and then you feel
00:09:53
the level of misery and kind of you're a
00:09:55
bit stuck in the mud and you don't know
00:09:56
what to do with it
00:09:58
>> and you don't entirely know how to have
00:09:59
conversation with epic normal humans.
00:10:02
>> Um and it's not in any way a feeling of
00:10:05
being better but it's definitely feeling
00:10:08
of being illquipped for normal normal
00:10:11
life like how do you roll with the
00:10:13
mundane?
00:10:14
>> That was the hardest thing. Now we
00:10:16
realizing we never had to pretend. we
00:10:18
could still chase her on edge and do
00:10:21
what spins our wheels. But I don't know
00:10:22
why we decided we have to follow someone
00:10:25
else's script for a while, the most
00:10:26
miserable stage of life. You know,
00:10:29
>> it is so refreshing to hear you say
00:10:31
that. Um because I I I did wonder about
00:10:33
that. And I I even wonder like with the
00:10:35
sort of conversations and the sort of
00:10:37
like I suppose fires that you're putting
00:10:38
out these days if you're like ah deep
00:10:41
down for [ __ ] sake this is trivial.
00:10:43
>> Yeah.
00:10:44
>> Pull your head in. You know what I mean?
00:10:46
>> Yeah. I mean there was a stage where I
00:10:48
thought I'm going to become a good uh
00:10:50
civilian citizen and just find myself a
00:10:52
life a job when I stepped out of
00:10:55
defense. I found that to be frightening
00:10:58
because the kind of issues we are
00:10:59
dabbling in aren't always the most
00:11:01
important you know and I can so so with
00:11:04
all all the humility attached to this
00:11:06
statement I love where I am now where I
00:11:09
can bounce in and out of places that
00:11:12
where nothing is trivial. Even the
00:11:14
trivial when you double click on it has
00:11:16
profound risk depth opportunity in it
00:11:18
and you have to respect it.
00:11:20
>> Um but yeah but you know the other thing
00:11:22
that I've noticed is that there is no
00:11:23
average human like for the for a hot
00:11:26
second you can imagine that you know the
00:11:29
daily life that we observe out there is
00:11:31
something that is normal and
00:11:32
predictable. It's not. Everyone has
00:11:34
their own epicness. Um and you know all
00:11:37
it takes is a couple of questions and
00:11:38
you're right there going you're so
00:11:40
amazing. Yeah. when when were you last
00:11:43
truly scared? And is is um fear for you
00:11:46
these days something different to what
00:11:48
it was potentially like 10 years ago?
00:11:51
>> You please don't think that this is like
00:11:52
I'm I'm a I try not to have too many
00:11:55
quotes that I use, but one of the quotes
00:11:57
that appears to have shaped much of what
00:11:59
I do is fear is just an indication that
00:12:02
something matters. It doesn't mean you
00:12:04
don't have it physiologically, but the
00:12:06
way in which you habituate yourself into
00:12:08
reacting to it makes a world of a
00:12:10
difference. So, I feel it all the time
00:12:12
because I don't tinker in the spaces
00:12:14
that are predictable or safe. That's
00:12:16
just the nature of my work and life at
00:12:19
the moment.
00:12:20
>> I fear it all the time, but I use it to
00:12:22
help sharpen my focus on what my mind is
00:12:26
noticing matters most
00:12:27
>> and then it gets exciting. Then you can
00:12:29
play, you know,
00:12:30
>> different sort of fear though. E
00:12:32
different sort of fear. Like it's not
00:12:34
the fear you have these days is not a
00:12:35
matter of life and death whereas once it
00:12:37
was.
00:12:38
>> Yeah. But then again, apparently there
00:12:40
isn't a different, you know, you can
00:12:41
imagine that it can feel very different
00:12:42
to have life and death fear, but a lot
00:12:45
of the fear that I observe and
00:12:47
experience these days is almost nastier
00:12:50
and more trickier to deal with than life
00:12:52
and death decisions in the moment
00:12:54
because you have too many options. Do
00:12:56
you know what I mean? In a life and
00:12:57
death situation, your options are
00:12:59
typically limited. And so, if you give
00:13:01
yourself a chance, you have relatively
00:13:03
easy decisions to make. you know, you
00:13:05
don't want to play dead when someone
00:13:06
tells you you're about to be made dead,
00:13:07
you know, if if you if you your options
00:13:10
are reduced by version of intensity. Um,
00:13:14
but if you are kind of in a blurry in a
00:13:15
daily and fear is about whether you're
00:13:18
going to encounter your grumpy boss down
00:13:19
a corridor and whether they're going to
00:13:21
make your tummy feel uneasy because
00:13:22
they're just a muppet, you know, like
00:13:24
that's a different kind of fear that you
00:13:25
can't you can't react as your body wants
00:13:28
it. M
00:13:29
>> um you know, you can't play dead with
00:13:31
your boss.
00:13:33
>> Well, you can.
00:13:34
>> You can, but he'll think you're weird.
00:13:36
>> Yeah.
00:13:38
>> Um Oh, this is going to be great. I I
00:13:39
thought what we'd do is um by the way,
00:13:41
already we've been going 12 minutes.
00:13:43
There's um lots of little little, you
00:13:46
know, helpful takeaways that I think
00:13:47
anyone can use to make their own lives
00:13:48
better. Um so, I thought before we get
00:13:51
into your personal story, um we'll start
00:13:53
with the resilience stuff. um and some
00:13:55
lessons that everyone can use cuz you
00:13:57
wrote the book the resilience toolkit.
00:13:59
>> So um when you think about the most
00:14:02
resilient um person or people you've
00:14:04
ever met, who are they and what made
00:14:07
them resilient?
00:14:08
>> I mean you'd expect with the rock stars
00:14:10
I've met over the last two decades that
00:14:14
count out a whole heap of names.
00:14:16
>> Rockstars and SAS guys,
00:14:18
>> SAS guys. Um but also civilians,
00:14:20
exceptional people who appear to, you
00:14:22
know, we talked about it earlier, that
00:14:24
spinning edge of possibilities, people
00:14:26
who are prepared and willing to
00:14:27
challenge themselves typically for the
00:14:30
achievement of something greater than
00:14:31
themselves, for a benefit that that
00:14:33
spends beyond often times the lifetime.
00:14:36
Um so yes, there are those rock stars.
00:14:39
Some of them are unnameable. Some of
00:14:41
them are easily recognizable. But I
00:14:43
think if we are to boil it all down, the
00:14:46
most resilient person I've ever met was
00:14:47
my grandmother. and she's the book of
00:14:49
life uh goddess that I kind of ascribe
00:14:52
to now later on in life realizing that a
00:14:55
lot of the principles we are trying to
00:14:57
learn are things that her generation and
00:15:00
herself lived consciously through
00:15:02
because those were the this is the
00:15:03
cadence of survival and thriving not
00:15:06
just making it through another day but
00:15:08
also having a clear sense of purpose
00:15:10
that no one can take away from you no
00:15:11
matter your circumstances but you know
00:15:14
like see one of the things that I quite
00:15:15
love is if we get ourselves out of the
00:15:17
bubble that most of us live in. You get
00:15:20
to observe that these superhumans exist
00:15:22
everywhere. You know, there's there's
00:15:24
countless places in the world these days
00:15:26
that continues to experience acuity. And
00:15:29
you get to observe people who can live
00:15:30
with sense of purpose, with capacity for
00:15:32
contribution, with um eye spend and
00:15:36
attention span that far surpasses their
00:15:38
lifetime and choose how they show up.
00:15:41
That's extremely difficult if you are
00:15:43
under extreme pressure or if you were in
00:15:46
a period of time when you have been put
00:15:47
under kind of tolerable pressure but for
00:15:50
prolonged period of time and you turn
00:15:52
into a bit of a prickled human you know
00:15:54
what I mean so yeah so my nana my nana
00:15:57
is the biggest rockstar of them all
00:15:58
>> you know
00:15:59
>> what made her so resilient
00:16:01
>> uh world wars conflicts um her own
00:16:04
upbringing and you know finding
00:16:06
necessity necessity absolutely
00:16:08
>> but to do that with grace you know what
00:16:10
I mean M are you um is it in your DNA?
00:16:13
Like do you think people are born
00:16:14
resilient or can can anyone is it like a
00:16:17
muscle that anyone can grow it and train
00:16:19
it?
00:16:19
>> I I'm convinced that this is a muscle
00:16:21
that everyone has to begin with. It's
00:16:23
just that different conditions,
00:16:25
different choices that we make along the
00:16:26
way either atrifies it or strengthen it.
00:16:29
>> And so our job our job is to build that
00:16:32
thing because you know like we have this
00:16:34
like weird idea that it's about
00:16:36
grittiness and absorption and handling
00:16:38
more pain. It's none of that stuff. It's
00:16:41
your ability to pause, ask awesome
00:16:43
questions, even if it feels like time
00:16:45
has been pressurized into just quick
00:16:48
switch decisions. It's it's gold. It's
00:16:50
awesome.
00:16:51
>> It's the unlock to human potential.
00:16:53
>> Yeah. Anyone that um enjoys this
00:16:55
conversation today, um I'd urge them to
00:16:57
look up your book, The Resilience
00:16:58
Toolkit, and buy a copy from Mighty
00:17:01
Apore somewhere. But uh one of the key
00:17:03
things in it is the ABCD.
00:17:04
>> Yeah.
00:17:05
>> Uh awareness, belonging, curiosity,
00:17:07
drive. What does that mean? I mean the
00:17:09
weirdest thing about this ABCD thing um
00:17:11
I want to hero up my dear friend Simon
00:17:14
Kuran who uh before this became ABCD it
00:17:18
was a PhD uh publication right my PhD
00:17:21
research was basically all about the
00:17:22
ABCD and it was in typical PhD fashion
00:17:26
clunky loaded in terminology that no one
00:17:29
could relate to. Simon was able to flip
00:17:30
it and turn it into something he calls
00:17:32
Sesame Street simple. Uh lucky for
00:17:34
science, you know, it relates to what
00:17:36
the science was saying. But effectively
00:17:38
what he shows us is the cadence of
00:17:40
resilience. And I keep saying the word
00:17:42
cadence, but there is a there is a pace
00:17:44
to it. There is a rhythm to it. Right?
00:17:46
You have to start with awareness,
00:17:49
self-awareness, interpersonal awareness,
00:17:51
situational awareness. Then the next
00:17:52
step is belonging. And belonging is
00:17:55
critical for resilience because it
00:17:57
allows you to see yourself where your
00:17:58
feet are in your fullness of your
00:18:00
potential. Uh and it can mean all sorts
00:18:02
of different things to different people.
00:18:03
It's not just attachment to your
00:18:04
familial origin or um values
00:18:08
necessarily. It's also understanding
00:18:10
that all of these things can grow and
00:18:11
evolve so that you can be better,
00:18:14
contribute better, function more
00:18:16
meaningfully. Um the next one is my
00:18:18
favorite my my kind of cue to survival.
00:18:21
curiosity
00:18:23
and that means the world uh just in
00:18:25
terms of capacity to pivot. You can't be
00:18:28
freaked out and depleted and curious at
00:18:31
the same time. So you kind of have to
00:18:33
choose when to be what with that stuff.
00:18:36
And the final one is drive. And normally
00:18:38
when we're thinking of resilience as a
00:18:39
thing that pushes you past a challenge,
00:18:42
we are thinking drive but purpose
00:18:45
precedes drive. Now all of that stuff
00:18:48
the ABCD
00:18:49
came out of big chunk of research I did
00:18:52
when I got sent back to the SS and the
00:18:54
counterterrorist tactics group. So I
00:18:57
spent a lot of time asking them what
00:19:00
resilience is made of and then the same
00:19:02
principles that these exceptional humans
00:19:04
articulated were already in existence
00:19:06
just not combined uh crossculturally
00:19:09
crosscontextually um and hence the ABCD
00:19:13
is something that very much belongs to
00:19:15
big performers the world over
00:19:17
>> and I get to see all the time like
00:19:18
that's the frustrating thing. It's been
00:19:19
a decade and I still see exactly the
00:19:22
same presentation. Maybe I'm biased but
00:19:24
I don't know. I get to see it all the
00:19:26
time, you know, like ah, you skip the
00:19:27
queue. A has to be there. You have to
00:19:29
have awareness before you start trying
00:19:31
to build a big performing entity. You
00:19:34
know, you have to understand yourself
00:19:35
and those around you. Well,
00:19:38
>> you know,
00:19:38
>> that's so cool. That is so helpful. So,
00:19:41
um, you said C. Curiosity is your
00:19:43
favorite. Um, what what's your least
00:19:45
favorite or the one that you struggle
00:19:46
with the most?
00:19:47
>> Well,
00:19:49
perhaps belonging. belonging because
00:19:51
it's a it's a it's a kind of a am a
00:19:54
amorphous thing, you know, and so in
00:19:57
order for you to crystallize it and to
00:19:59
uh make it a functional thing as opposed
00:20:01
to a superficial idea and a fluffy idea,
00:20:04
it takes a lot of practice and a lot of
00:20:05
awareness. Um it takes like I I'm it's
00:20:09
weird to say it as a psychologist. I'm
00:20:11
not a massive fan of egocentric
00:20:14
build of anything, you know, like
00:20:16
belonging
00:20:17
has to be built in relation to your
00:20:19
interactions with the world. You can't
00:20:21
just develop your sense of values and
00:20:23
identity in isolation. You can't do it
00:20:25
in a bubble. So, it takes a bit of work.
00:20:28
It takes a bit of testing. You don't do
00:20:29
it in a cave. It means that you have to
00:20:31
understand what your potential is and
00:20:33
then understand how it is that you what
00:20:35
is the stance you have to assume in
00:20:37
order to springboard to better, you
00:20:39
know. So, it's a
00:20:40
>> it's a kind of squishy morphy thing.
00:20:43
>> And you you use the term um in your
00:20:46
book, The Resilience Talk, bouncing
00:20:48
forward versus bouncing back.
00:20:49
>> Yeah.
00:20:49
>> What does that mean?
00:20:51
>> You know how we have um resilience being
00:20:54
typically defined as the bouncing back
00:20:56
following an unred event.
00:20:58
>> Yeah. You bounce back. It's what people
00:21:00
say.
00:21:00
>> I hate it. It's like what if the thing
00:21:02
that you are trying to bounce back to is
00:21:03
no longer there. You know what I mean?
00:21:05
So, so like what we are missing in this
00:21:08
um understanding of resilience is that
00:21:10
most of the time when people encounter
00:21:11
significant setback, significant change
00:21:13
in their lives or something that signals
00:21:15
to them that they should they should
00:21:17
take a different approach, the whole
00:21:19
idea of bouncing back reverts them to
00:21:22
what they used to be without any lessons
00:21:24
learned gained. And that's just that's
00:21:26
just not cool. You know, the purpose of
00:21:28
life is to grow, to evolve, to challenge
00:21:30
yourself, to
00:21:32
>> see yourself in some way richer for your
00:21:35
experiences, good, bad. Otherwise,
00:21:36
nobody cares. They're there, right? So,
00:21:38
your job is to
00:21:40
>> better understand them.
00:21:42
>> I when I was when I was starting to get
00:21:44
particularly frustrated with this
00:21:46
bouncing back situation is I think like
00:21:48
examples like Christ earthquake, you
00:21:51
know, like it's missing a whole bunch of
00:21:54
opportunities to learn if you keep
00:21:55
simplifying it to that.
00:21:57
Yeah.
00:21:58
>> With um I'm I'm probably projecting
00:22:00
here, but how how do you have the
00:22:02
compassion and empathy to not roll your
00:22:05
eyes at some people's version of
00:22:06
adversity? Like when you compare it to
00:22:08
what your your nana went through or the
00:22:09
stuff that you've been through? Like are
00:22:11
there times where you're like, "Oh, just
00:22:13
for crying out loud. Get over yourself."
00:22:16
>> Okay. So, in a spirit of transparency,
00:22:18
yes, there are, but they're not the
00:22:20
times you assume, right? And so like for
00:22:21
example, you know how when you're
00:22:24
lulling around the the times when I roll
00:22:26
my eyes proudly and visibly is when we
00:22:28
are like stuck in a gossip and it's like
00:22:30
I get to hear it all the time and then
00:22:32
he said and then she said and then I
00:22:34
said so anything that signals avoidance
00:22:37
and unwillingness to step into that
00:22:39
challenge um makes my eyes roll
00:22:43
involuntarily because what's missing in
00:22:46
that is like you're missing the
00:22:48
opportunity. you're missing the
00:22:49
opportunity to test yourself. Um, but
00:22:51
this is also normal human behavior. Now,
00:22:54
most of what we perceive as adversity
00:22:55
isn't in itself adversity. It's again
00:22:59
sense of readiness that we have, sense
00:23:01
of confidence that we have, um,
00:23:03
understanding or assumption about what
00:23:05
resources we currently have to deal with
00:23:07
what's in front of us. So, we can never
00:23:10
underestimate what someone perceives as
00:23:12
challenging.
00:23:13
>> Yeah. The only thing I don't like is
00:23:15
when we get ourselves lost in a white
00:23:17
noise. Because one thing that my my life
00:23:20
affords me is the opportunity to have a
00:23:22
peak in all sorts of different
00:23:24
environments. And all I want to say to
00:23:25
us all is like, you know what, there's
00:23:26
so much epicness to be experienced. It's
00:23:29
not about testing yourself all the time.
00:23:30
It's just about having fun. Like, you
00:23:32
know what I mean? Stop gossiping. Have
00:23:34
have fun is really what that's the only
00:23:36
time. Yeah.
00:23:37
>> Yeah. Where does where does that come
00:23:38
from? is like that sort of like
00:23:40
gratitude or that different perspective
00:23:43
that you've got that glass half full
00:23:44
thing.
00:23:45
>> Every every place I've been to like I
00:23:47
mean I think my upbringing was very much
00:23:50
uh tilted in that way. I grew up in
00:23:53
postcomunist Bulgaria. Uh and if you
00:23:55
wanted to be like and he said and she
00:23:56
said and like bo through your day, you
00:23:58
could totally do it like you had
00:24:00
virtually every reason to do it. You
00:24:01
know, I grew up at a time when we had I
00:24:03
don't know if you shared this with you
00:24:05
before, but um you know when we had the
00:24:08
toilet paper crisis here in in during co
00:24:10
>> Yeah.
00:24:11
>> And I felt like epically prepared
00:24:13
because I remembered how during my
00:24:15
upbringing we had electricity crisis,
00:24:17
toilet paper was a real issue for a
00:24:19
period of time and the only reason why
00:24:21
this is an odd fact is right next to our
00:24:23
apartment building in Sophia was the
00:24:25
toilet paper factory uh where half of my
00:24:28
family was working. You know what I
00:24:29
mean? So you had this kind of
00:24:30
juxtaposition
00:24:31
um of of experiences. But the reason why
00:24:34
I mention it is
00:24:36
>> it teaches you these kinds of
00:24:37
environments
00:24:38
>> that you have abundant choices about how
00:24:42
you feel about what's around you. Not in
00:24:44
some way fluffy but in some way
00:24:45
practiced every single day. You get an
00:24:48
opportunity to get fully overwhelmed by
00:24:50
the minor drama and the white noise and
00:24:53
the [ __ ] of it all. Or you have a
00:24:55
choice to go sweet. I'm here you know
00:24:57
watch me roar. let me just focus on
00:24:59
something that's meaningful. And when
00:25:01
you do that, you notice something epic
00:25:03
that you might have otherwise fully
00:25:04
missed because you were just like
00:25:05
bobbing about.
00:25:06
>> That's what I'm talking about, you know?
00:25:08
>> Yeah.
00:25:09
Um, you're a mom. Uh, Jamie and yourself
00:25:12
have got a son who's 10, 11.
00:25:13
>> Yeah. He's about to turn 11.
00:25:15
>> Yeah. Um, so question for parents like,
00:25:18
I don't know, there seems to be a thing
00:25:20
now to like micromanage your kids'
00:25:22
lives. Um, but I suppose it's a
00:25:24
balancing act cuz you want your kids to
00:25:25
be resilient, but you don't want them to
00:25:27
experience anything that's going to need
00:25:29
to be resilient. Do you know what I
00:25:31
mean?
00:25:31
>> How do you what? Yeah. What do you say
00:25:33
to parents of kids?
00:25:34
>> How are you how are you raising your son
00:25:36
to be a resilient man?
00:25:37
>> We have we have one rule and that's the
00:25:39
hardest thing for Jamie and I to adhere
00:25:41
to. Hopefully, he's listening and
00:25:42
hopefully he's sticking by it, but it's
00:25:44
getting out of Alex's way. So our son
00:25:46
has got Alex and he you know like what
00:25:49
Jamie and I used to or what we expect
00:25:51
him to like want to do and handle could
00:25:54
be entirely different for his own script
00:25:56
right and so getting out of his way for
00:25:57
us means letting him test himself
00:26:00
letting him experiment experience
00:26:02
letting him sense feel here taste the
00:26:06
feeling of the challenges that he
00:26:08
chooses to set for himself not our own
00:26:10
script of life
00:26:12
>> you know
00:26:13
>> so yeah that's the most important rule
00:26:14
get out of his way more often.
00:26:17
>> Um,
00:26:18
yeah. Have you ever met anyone that you
00:26:20
um believed after meeting with them was
00:26:22
beyond help?
00:26:24
>> No. And I meet a few I meet a few. I
00:26:27
have a portfolio of work that sits under
00:26:29
the umbrella of intolerables.
00:26:32
>> No. You know, maybe um Yeah. No. There's
00:26:37
there's caveats to that, right? Like
00:26:39
who's going to be willing to help that?
00:26:40
But there's always Yeah.
00:26:42
>> Does someone need to be willing to help
00:26:44
themselves?
00:26:44
>> Of course.
00:26:46
makes it so much easier.
00:26:48
>> How can someone um I've got a specific
00:26:50
example in mind here. How can someone
00:26:52
not let trauma define them
00:26:55
is um uh my my girlfriend, a friend of
00:26:58
hers who works in retail in New Market.
00:27:00
Um last week um a young woman came in
00:27:02
with um a can of deodorant and a lighter
00:27:05
and was like flaming at her and then had
00:27:08
a knife and uh you held her up at at
00:27:10
knife point and uh as you'd expect it's
00:27:12
a very traumatic event and
00:27:14
>> I feel like this is the sort of I don't
00:27:16
know if this is going to be the case
00:27:17
here but it could could be the sort of
00:27:18
the sort of thing that defines a
00:27:20
person's life or causes you to crumble.
00:27:22
>> Um how can how can someone not let um a
00:27:25
traumatic event like that define them? I
00:27:27
mean it may feel counterintuitive for
00:27:29
some of us. Often times what we do with
00:27:30
trauma or anything we consider
00:27:32
potentially traumatic is that we try to
00:27:34
avoid thinking about it try to distract
00:27:36
ourselves away from that thing and focus
00:27:39
on other aspects of our lives. That's
00:27:42
helpful. But one thing that traumatic
00:27:43
events call upon us is the opportunity
00:27:46
to better better study ourselves uh
00:27:48
resources uh skill sets maybe in
00:27:50
situations like that. That's quite a
00:27:52
specific situation right? So how do you
00:27:55
let it not affect you is firstly
00:27:56
realizing that the the frequency with
00:27:58
which that has happened in terms of the
00:28:00
wider scope of your life makes it a null
00:28:02
event in some ways right it's an
00:28:04
exceptional event because it's all
00:28:05
shocking but it's all shocking because
00:28:08
it's an oddity right and so you kind of
00:28:10
stretch your mind and think in a scale
00:28:12
in a scheme of things how likely is this
00:28:14
to happen and if it was what are the
00:28:18
capabilities the level of awareness
00:28:20
you're going to build in order for this
00:28:21
to be something you consider manageable
00:28:23
as opposed to shocking in the future. So
00:28:25
I mean this there are systemic things to
00:28:27
be considered here and it it blows my
00:28:30
mind that this happened in New Zealand.
00:28:32
It blows my mind, right? Because we
00:28:34
don't have that level of preparedness.
00:28:35
We don't have like the last thing in the
00:28:37
world you want to imagine is
00:28:39
>> a security guard in every shop checking
00:28:40
people for lighters. It's just it
00:28:42
doesn't make sense. It doesn't make
00:28:44
sense.
00:28:45
>> So maybe the So the other side to what
00:28:48
do I need to build? But more
00:28:50
importantly, what it is that I did in
00:28:53
this moment that helped me survive it.
00:28:55
Like the beauty of having moments like
00:28:57
these is that clearly you're on the
00:28:59
other side of them looking back at them.
00:29:02
So what it is that allowed you to
00:29:04
survive it to endure it to see yourself
00:29:06
as someone who is capable of making it
00:29:09
through a moment like that. Often times
00:29:10
we ignore it because we make ourselves
00:29:12
the victim instantly. We were under
00:29:14
someone else's will. We were in
00:29:16
circumstances of duress and we handled
00:29:18
them. But there's much more in every
00:29:20
situation that you have seen yourself
00:29:22
through that deserves your attention. So
00:29:24
what will you build in the future? Can
00:29:27
you give yourself an opportunity to
00:29:29
recognize that this is an exceptional
00:29:30
event? And if you were to build anything
00:29:32
at all, in what way will it make you
00:29:34
more robust, more prepared, more we are
00:29:36
stronger? More importantly, looking
00:29:39
back, what did you do that makes you the
00:29:41
best total rock star in that moment and
00:29:45
makes you want to high five yourself
00:29:46
going, "Wow, I can't believe I did
00:29:48
that." you know,
00:29:50
>> thanks so much for that. That's so
00:29:51
helpful.
00:29:53
>> Yeah, I hope so.
00:29:54
>> Yeah, I think a lot of people listening
00:29:55
to that um even though their situation
00:29:57
will be slightly different will be able
00:29:59
to like insert themselves into that
00:30:00
story and take a lot away from that.
00:30:02
It's a great book by Did the book do
00:30:03
well when when did the book come out?
00:30:05
The resilience tool kit
00:30:06
>> two couple of years ago.
00:30:07
>> Did it go all right?
00:30:08
>> I think so. I think so. And by the way,
00:30:10
I was terrible at promoting it. My job
00:30:13
was to piece it together and then run.
00:30:16
>> Why? Why? Why were you terrible at
00:30:18
promoting it?
00:30:19
>> It just feels in it feels entitled and
00:30:21
pompous. You know what I mean? Like so
00:30:22
so I'm not uh my publisher probably is
00:30:25
preparing to chop my head off right now
00:30:27
as I say that, but I don't like that
00:30:28
part at all.
00:30:30
>> Yeah. Does that is that from your your
00:30:32
military background in the SAS? Like the
00:30:33
the inability to self-promote?
00:30:35
>> I mean it's not it's just
00:30:37
>> it's not the it's not the SAS way, is
00:30:38
it?
00:30:39
>> It's unwillingness to you know because I
00:30:41
mean the other thing is in my defense
00:30:42
the book isn't about like I'm not the
00:30:45
the central figure. It's not a biography
00:30:46
of my awesomeness, you know what I mean?
00:30:48
It's it's the story of exceptional
00:30:50
humans that have
00:30:52
>> shared
00:30:53
uh unbelievable detail. Um and that that
00:30:56
has allowed a bunch of geeks like myself
00:30:58
to piece it all together and go, "Hey
00:31:00
team, let's just roll with it,
00:31:02
>> try it out, you know." Um so it would
00:31:04
have felt wildly bumpers and awkward to
00:31:07
be like, "Oh, here I am with my book."
00:31:09
You know, probably should have done it.
00:31:11
I' I've heard you on um in previous um
00:31:13
interviews and podcasts talk exactly the
00:31:15
same way about the military accolades
00:31:17
you've got.
00:31:18
>> Oh yeah.
00:31:19
>> You're just reluctant to have any sort
00:31:20
of um shine on yourself, aren't you?
00:31:22
>> Well, what yeah it never even if you are
00:31:25
completely in isolation, you seldom are
00:31:27
you know what I mean? Other people
00:31:28
preset the conditions for you. There is
00:31:30
someone to catch you on the other side
00:31:31
if you're lucky. You know, there's
00:31:33
usually all sorts of unsung heroes in
00:31:36
situations like that. It's just
00:31:37
sometimes it so happens that you are the
00:31:39
dude or dudes under the spotlight and
00:31:42
then you I don't I think it's the
00:31:44
ugliest thing when you kind of get
00:31:45
carried away with that and forget
00:31:47
>> the contextual
00:31:49
>> um the conditions that got you there,
00:31:51
>> you know.
00:31:52
>> But in and in life there's going to be
00:31:53
plenty of people that are going to try
00:31:54
and drag you down. So surely you have to
00:31:56
be your own cheerleader. No.
00:31:58
>> Yeah. You don't have to be a
00:31:59
cheerleader. I think you just have to be
00:32:02
I think as Jamie would say and sorry for
00:32:04
my English, but that's what he would
00:32:05
say. You just have to know your [ __ ]
00:32:06
you know? Like I don't I don't I'm not
00:32:09
trying to prove myself worthy. I am
00:32:12
hoping my work
00:32:13
>> contributes. That's basically it. And
00:32:15
that makes it super easy, you know what
00:32:16
I mean? It makes it extremely easy for
00:32:18
me to uh stand along on stage with other
00:32:22
rock stars, communicate science in a way
00:32:24
that hopefully is relatable
00:32:26
>> uh and stay stay the course of what's
00:32:27
needed. There's so much stuff we have to
00:32:30
do in my space that if I bamboozled
00:32:33
myself with a desire to prove myself to
00:32:34
someone I've never met before or who
00:32:36
decides to occupy the time criticizing
00:32:38
me, then I'll be like a horrible waste
00:32:40
of scientific resource. Do you know what
00:32:42
I'm saying? Like it's so much more fun
00:32:44
to just go, "Oh, look what I found." You
00:32:47
know?
00:32:48
>> So, what's what's your relationship like
00:32:49
with social media? Do you have any
00:32:50
social media footprint?
00:32:52
>> I'm I'm trying to
00:32:55
>> Sorry. Most of it is not my making. Most
00:32:58
of it is um you know stuff I've shared
00:33:00
or things I've done that have been
00:33:01
shared by others which I love.
00:33:03
>> Um I really am trying to learn to
00:33:06
communicate key messages and learning uh
00:33:09
with others through the likes of
00:33:10
LinkedIn
00:33:11
>> but I really don't like the the habit
00:33:14
I'm supposed to be getting into. I
00:33:15
refuse to do it. Like here am I with
00:33:17
these amazing people talking about like
00:33:19
who cares? Do you know what I mean? And
00:33:22
it's
00:33:22
>> it's the whole it is the whole culture.
00:33:24
It is. It is. Hey, social media. But
00:33:27
you've you you'd be unbothered if anyone
00:33:29
criticized you in the comments. If there
00:33:31
was any negative comments, you wouldn't
00:33:32
you wouldn't give a a [ __ ] would you?
00:33:34
>> I mean, I'd feel I'd feel um concerned
00:33:39
if someone is personally attacking me.
00:33:41
I'd be I'd be interested to know if, for
00:33:43
example, I have a blind spot in the
00:33:46
evidence I'm playing with or the data
00:33:48
I'm I'm serving others with. If there's
00:33:50
a gashing gap in my understanding that
00:33:52
causes risk, I'd love to know it. But I
00:33:56
don't I don't love the idea of people. I
00:33:59
can see why why people do it, attacking
00:34:01
people's identities,
00:34:03
>> but because I'm a psychologist and I
00:34:05
have um almost dangerous level of
00:34:07
empathy and interpersonal curiosity. I'd
00:34:09
wonder what's what's going on for you,
00:34:11
buddy. And that scares me because
00:34:12
imagine if I end up having to reach out
00:34:14
to everyone and go, I've got proono
00:34:15
hours. Shall we chat? What's making you
00:34:18
bitter? Hey, can we talk about your
00:34:21
dramas? Like what gremlin are you
00:34:23
holding on your shoulder that makes you
00:34:24
want to critique someone?
00:34:25
>> Yeah, that's crazy.
00:34:27
>> It's it's a really good point. Like if
00:34:28
if um if my mental health is in a good
00:34:30
space and someone like um tootses at me
00:34:32
in the traffic, um if my mental health
00:34:34
is where it should be, I I know to
00:34:36
think, [ __ ] that person must have some
00:34:38
[ __ ] going on. Yeah.
00:34:39
>> That I don't I'm not aware of. But if my
00:34:41
mental health isn't where it should be,
00:34:42
I'm like, who the [ __ ] are they? What
00:34:44
are they? You know, react react badly.
00:34:47
Um,
00:34:48
>> I'm going to tell you something totally
00:34:49
random though now. So, I'm seldom on the
00:34:51
likes of Facebook. I used to have it,
00:34:53
but I and now I'm on it again. And the
00:34:56
reason for it is that there is this
00:34:57
horrendous reality TV show in Bulgaria
00:35:00
and I love it because it gives me a
00:35:02
glimpse of my old world. Not not in the
00:35:04
most helpful way for my um pride in my
00:35:07
country, but it's just a silly show and
00:35:09
it's got I think it's the Bachelor or
00:35:11
something equivalent of that, right? Um,
00:35:13
and so I occasionally look at these
00:35:16
shorts and then I look at the commentary
00:35:18
underneath that and all you see is
00:35:21
individualized attack like deeply
00:35:23
grotesque personal attack on people's
00:35:25
physical appearance, the words they use,
00:35:27
the accents they have and it just blows
00:35:29
my mind because meanwhile meanwhile just
00:35:32
around the corner from them there are
00:35:34
thousands of opportunities for them to
00:35:35
see themselves as worthy humans.
00:35:37
everyone in the commentary boxes, you
00:35:39
know, and then you have to have this
00:35:41
bruised and and battered identities
00:35:45
moving through the daily lives, carrying
00:35:46
this crazy white noise in their heads
00:35:49
from someone they've never met, who if
00:35:51
they met for a second, they'd be able to
00:35:54
find some element of interest in one
00:35:56
another. Forget about compassion,
00:35:57
empathy, all that fluffy stuff, right?
00:35:58
Like, forget about being an averely good
00:36:00
human. At the very least, some level of
00:36:02
interest. M.
00:36:03
>> So that to me is just the the ugliest
00:36:06
version of human presentation.
00:36:09
>> Yeah, it's icky.
00:36:10
>> Yeah.
00:36:10
>> Um you you've mentioned Bulgaria a
00:36:12
couple of times. So now is probably a
00:36:14
good time to pivot and uh go into your
00:36:15
early years.
00:36:16
>> Yeah.
00:36:17
>> Um I've got a little um a present for
00:36:19
you, a prop, and I want to um bring it
00:36:21
up and see what comes to mind. Or
00:36:23
>> Stop it.
00:36:23
>> Or what what don't be so excited. Don't
00:36:26
be so excited. I've got this. I've got
00:36:28
this. And uh I just want to see um yeah,
00:36:31
what memories it it brings back. Okay.
00:36:33
Okay.
00:36:37
What? How do you What do you How do you
00:36:40
know about the Toblerone? Oh my god.
00:36:44
>> What's What's significant about the
00:36:46
Toblerone?
00:36:48
>> Firstly, this is a this is a like luxury
00:36:51
size. So,
00:36:53
>> it's an airport size, a duty free size.
00:36:55
>> Am I allowed to keep it afterwards? Am I
00:36:57
allowed to keep it after class? You
00:36:59
can't take it. I'm going to wrestle you.
00:37:01
I'm going to fight for this thing.
00:37:03
>> You kick my ass.
00:37:04
>> Oh my god. I'd be prepared to honestly
00:37:06
for this thing. This thing means the
00:37:07
world because um when I was growing up
00:37:10
there was one shop that used to sell uh
00:37:13
western items and it was called Codiccom
00:37:16
and it was only one of them and it was
00:37:18
in uh sorry Oakland in Sophia, the
00:37:20
capital of Bulgaria and so you had very
00:37:24
limited supply of items inside of it.
00:37:27
Toblerone is one of the things that was
00:37:29
there and also Kinder Surprise eggs.
00:37:32
Those were the two things. But you'd get
00:37:34
coupons if you were a worthy citizen. Uh
00:37:38
you know, you couldn't just have coupons
00:37:40
if you were some random whatever that
00:37:42
means. And so you had to use those
00:37:44
coupons. Uh I think there would be once
00:37:46
a year for one of these items. So this
00:37:50
whole idea of having a tobleron
00:37:52
chocolate basically means you've made it
00:37:55
in life. You know what I And you could
00:37:56
you could savor it. We had um I guess it
00:37:59
will be around about the time of
00:38:00
Christmas or your super special
00:38:02
birthday. You'll have one of these
00:38:04
things and then you split the pieces and
00:38:07
then you savor them and you and you like
00:38:09
taste I mean this and also um any
00:38:12
version of cheese that is not your
00:38:14
standard feta cheese is the most common
00:38:16
in Bulgaria. Uh my father went on a hang
00:38:18
gliding competition in Switzerland
00:38:21
early stages postcommunist times and
00:38:24
imagine the dude like he would have gone
00:38:26
there with a whole bunch of delegates
00:38:27
from all over Europe and he came back
00:38:30
having gone through the um this he
00:38:33
called it the Swiss table didn't realize
00:38:34
that this is like a buffet breakfast you
00:38:37
know so he'd go there with servette and
00:38:40
station it a whole heap of cheeses from
00:38:42
the from the breakfast table to bring
00:38:44
back home for us and we had that in our
00:38:46
fridge for, you know, probably unhealthy
00:38:49
period of time just like eating tiny
00:38:52
pieces of like what how upset is that?
00:38:55
>> From from the perspective of
00:38:56
>> Oh my god, I'm keeping this. I'm just
00:38:57
going to take it away from you.
00:38:58
>> It's yours. It's yours. Um, thanks for
00:39:00
sharing those those insights. Like from
00:39:02
from the perspective of where I'm
00:39:04
sitting, born and raised in New Zealand,
00:39:07
>> it's um it seems like an unimaginable
00:39:10
unimaginable upbringing like what you
00:39:13
just explained there in and that your
00:39:14
brief answer about the Toblone. Yeah,
00:39:16
>> like vouchers and
00:39:19
>> rations and I mean you mentioned before
00:39:23
that's the closest I suppose in New
00:39:24
Zealand we've come to experience
00:39:26
anything like that which is a long way
00:39:27
off what you went through in Bulgaria.
00:39:29
And so I've been in New Zealand more
00:39:31
than half my life. The best new home
00:39:33
anyone could possibly have. The best
00:39:35
place. But it doesn't matter how many
00:39:38
ways and how many times I look back. I
00:39:40
can't see these times as unimaginable or
00:39:41
difficult. Obviously because I've
00:39:43
experienced them. But also because
00:39:44
there's an assumption here that if we
00:39:46
don't have access to all of these things
00:39:47
we are accustomed to in some way someone
00:39:49
else is lacking. We we weren't starving.
00:39:53
We had quite a significant level of
00:39:55
scarcity in all sorts of resources. we
00:39:57
consider here to be um normal but the
00:40:00
piece that we had there in abundance
00:40:02
that we haven't quite I'm not witnessing
00:40:05
to the same extent here is remarkable
00:40:08
level of connection with others um
00:40:10
ability to share stuff share insights I
00:40:13
mean here is an example during our kind
00:40:14
of harshest crisis periods we would be
00:40:17
having uh electricity shortcuts and
00:40:19
it'll be nighttime that they will be
00:40:21
unplugged the winter in Sophia in
00:40:23
Bulgaria generally is harsh and So you
00:40:26
would have no electricity in the in the
00:40:28
coldest hours, but you also didn't have
00:40:31
anything to cook your food on. So you'd
00:40:33
have one person with the gas cooker and
00:40:35
we'll make communal meals for, you know,
00:40:37
several apartments around us. You don't
00:40:40
have electricity, so you don't have TV,
00:40:41
which nobody really had anyway. It had
00:40:43
like one channel or whatever. But we'll
00:40:45
have guitars and you'll have stories and
00:40:47
you'll have connection. You have giggles
00:40:48
and you have advice and discussions on
00:40:52
the Bible, which was like no one was
00:40:54
particularly religious. This is
00:40:55
postcomunist time. But the understanding
00:40:57
of deeper philosophical ideas is a gift
00:41:01
I don't think we have because we are too
00:41:03
busy with quick switch stuff and like
00:41:05
access. So I kind of you know I see it
00:41:08
as a as a as an epic gift.
00:41:10
>> Um I've been talking a bit of recent
00:41:13
about the best pastime uh activity we
00:41:16
had with my cousins. So we didn't have
00:41:18
toys too many toys. I had a carting, so
00:41:21
race car that my father built for me for
00:41:23
my birthday, for my 12th birthday with
00:41:26
proper engine on the side of it that
00:41:28
burned half of the people's faces that
00:41:29
would sit on it. And Mick 21 uh retired
00:41:34
tires on a site, exceptional, super
00:41:36
dangerous. Um, hence my son could never
00:41:38
experience the level of risk we did. But
00:41:41
we would spend the whole time buzzing
00:41:42
around on this thing with borrowed bag
00:41:44
and stolen fuel. and we would spend the
00:41:46
rest of our time chasing next to a giant
00:41:49
truck tire that someone had acquired uh
00:41:52
up and down this hill. We spend the
00:41:53
entire childhood seeing which one of us
00:41:56
is going to be faster than the tire and
00:41:59
on you know if you were the smallest
00:42:01
member of the family or the visitor at
00:42:02
the time you'd be in the tire trying to
00:42:05
keep it like you know I mean this is
00:42:07
epic but along the way you have some
00:42:09
epic conversations you build lifetime
00:42:11
bonds you understand what you're made of
00:42:14
you know you you learn that you you know
00:42:16
you're not going to die if you roll down
00:42:17
a hill it's amazing stuff so yeah don't
00:42:20
see it as a Yeah.
00:42:23
>> And you were a diver, right? You were a
00:42:24
really good diver like a springboard
00:42:26
diver.
00:42:26
>> Yeah. Like could have been could have
00:42:28
been like Olympic class.
00:42:29
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:31
>> But I mean again uh the gift and the and
00:42:34
the gnarliness of of communist time is
00:42:36
that you didn't really get to choose
00:42:38
that. Um so we we would get chosen uh in
00:42:42
a first year school. So I would have
00:42:44
been five from selectors for different
00:42:46
teams and they look at your body build
00:42:49
and muscle dexterity and choose what
00:42:51
you're fit for and what you're not and
00:42:53
you hope like hell that you chosen for
00:42:54
something cuz then you kind of have to
00:42:55
be awkward for a few years and try and
00:42:57
become a geek. Um so yeah it was and
00:43:00
then you if you're selected then you're
00:43:02
half good you get given the schooling
00:43:05
that requires you to be exceptional and
00:43:08
you can't like because of the whole the
00:43:10
context is driving you in this direction
00:43:12
right it's the standard is um this is
00:43:15
your opportunity to show yourself some
00:43:17
level of control and influence that you
00:43:19
can perfect something that you can chase
00:43:21
after something you can see yourself
00:43:24
executing something with perfection you
00:43:26
dream about it you move about it you
00:43:28
talk about about it. I loved it.
00:43:30
>> But but even in that, like applying the
00:43:32
New Zealand lens again, it's like um
00:43:34
that choice is taken away like you're
00:43:36
being told what to do.
00:43:38
>> And and I know I should be bitter about
00:43:40
it, but I'm not. You know what I mean?
00:43:42
Because it's like is it a choice taken
00:43:44
away or is it uh an opportunity
00:43:48
streamlined? I'm not suggesting that
00:43:50
this is a way forward. Like if I told my
00:43:52
son or had some gangster trainer telling
00:43:55
my son what to do, they will know about
00:43:57
it. you know, like my and I love my
00:43:59
son's like I love his um blunt No, I
00:44:04
didn't choose that approach, but it
00:44:06
freaks me out still. I'm like, what do
00:44:08
you mean? I can tell you that this is
00:44:09
very good for you. Just go for it.
00:44:11
>> No. So, I don't know. It's um I
00:44:13
appreciated it. I appreciated it because
00:44:14
it gives you an opportunity to see
00:44:16
yourself chase perfection, this elusive
00:44:20
thing,
00:44:20
>> which my son will never have. I mean, he
00:44:22
just switches appetites all the time. we
00:44:25
just put up a different team poster, you
00:44:27
know, we move from rugby to soccer to
00:44:29
something else and it's like this
00:44:31
flighty thing. It's like, you know,
00:44:33
flimsical. Yeah.
00:44:35
>> Yeah. It's almost like a like a curse of
00:44:37
choice, isn't it? There's too many
00:44:38
options.
00:44:39
>> Um, but I I got I suppose when I heard
00:44:42
this about you, I just sort of imagined
00:44:44
myself in your shoes and I'm petrified
00:44:46
of heights.
00:44:47
>> So, if a selector came around and said,
00:44:49
"Oh, Dom, we want you to be a diver."
00:44:51
Yeah.
00:44:51
>> There's no way I could jump off a 10- m
00:44:53
board. Yeah, like that.
00:44:54
>> Well, I mean, me too. Me too. But then
00:44:56
you tell yourself that and then do you
00:44:58
know we had this um epic trainer, Auntie
00:45:00
Mary. And Auntie Mary is the harshest
00:45:03
woman I've ever met. Like no one. That's
00:45:05
probably why I have no fear because I've
00:45:07
I've rolled with her for like 11 years
00:45:08
of my life. And I I know the I know the
00:45:10
chick, but she would this is entirely
00:45:13
inappropriate and and um unsupported
00:45:15
these days. But if you chickenened out
00:45:17
on something or half executed the jump,
00:45:19
she knows you have potential to execute.
00:45:22
She she was a bit she was a bit like you
00:45:24
know um she'd climb up the steps and you
00:45:26
could hear sorry I've said that story
00:45:28
before um and you know the gendle is
00:45:30
coming you know people speak of gendles
00:45:33
I reckon the bulan gendle is a way
00:45:36
heavier weight than than than the New
00:45:39
Zealand one you know what I mean oh and
00:45:41
you can imagine like in your togs or
00:45:43
swimsuit the gendle hits different you
00:45:46
know like it's you don't even don't even
00:45:48
have a barrier
00:45:50
>> that story has not aged particularly
00:45:52
well. It's a it's a fabulous
00:45:54
>> story. It is the story, you know. Yeah.
00:45:56
>> Yeah. So, um, so you moved to New
00:45:59
Zealand when you were 17. What What do
00:46:01
you know about New Zealand or about the
00:46:03
English language? Like, were you exposed
00:46:04
to any American TV shows or anything?
00:46:08
>> So, it's weird. We didn't have that yet.
00:46:10
Um, what we did have were series of
00:46:12
videotapes that were contraband. Um,
00:46:15
probably recordings of MTV or some TV
00:46:17
shows that were played in Turkey. And we
00:46:19
would all have like truck driver friends
00:46:21
that would go and import export stuff or
00:46:24
move content between Turkey and
00:46:26
Bulgaria. Turkey was an amazing place at
00:46:28
the time, still is. Um, but we had
00:46:31
videotapes of the likes of Thomas the
00:46:33
Tank. Uh, and no, it wasn't Thomas the
00:46:35
Tank, it was some other TV show that had
00:46:38
very basic English description of Apple
00:46:41
and Pier and color. So, that was the
00:46:44
level of English we had, you know, from
00:46:46
those videootapes. Bless them. Bless the
00:46:49
contraband video tapes.
00:46:51
>> They came in came in hand.
00:46:52
>> I'm selling all sorts of propositions
00:46:53
here. That is fully unacceptable. We're
00:46:56
talking about different time in human
00:46:57
history here. But when we got here um we
00:47:00
knew very little because this was you
00:47:03
know this was um some time back now
00:47:05
obviously and my father all that he uh
00:47:08
chose to communicate where not not
00:47:10
because he was trying to be deceptive.
00:47:11
He was communicating the stuff that
00:47:13
interest him which was hills and
00:47:15
mountains and you know sheep in pedics
00:47:17
abandoned spaces.
00:47:19
>> So we imagine it to be this um endless
00:47:22
barn space we had no no it's not there
00:47:26
was a movie there was some kind of movie
00:47:27
but I can't remember the name of it um
00:47:30
that had come out that we saw that
00:47:32
roughly depicted New Zealand. Now when I
00:47:34
look back it was New Zealand in the
00:47:35
1800s so probably not so relevant but we
00:47:38
had all sorts of twisted images and then
00:47:40
when we got to New Zealand and this is
00:47:42
the thing like you imagine Bulgaria is
00:47:44
like I don't know some horrible messy
00:47:46
third world country in the Balkans but
00:47:47
to us it was flesh and amazing and full
00:47:49
of all sorts of dynamic stories and um
00:47:52
as much as it sounds like it was
00:47:53
controlled context I personally had
00:47:56
amazing level of freedom you know um you
00:47:59
know music rebellion was up and everyone
00:48:02
was up and at it some version of
00:48:04
rebellion. We would protest against the
00:48:05
government of the day just like it's
00:48:07
happening right now in Bulgaria.
00:48:09
>> Um and so I found immense level of
00:48:12
freedom. But we arrived in Christ Church
00:48:14
and my father picked us up in this like
00:48:16
pink Mini Cooper that he had acquired
00:48:18
for 50 bucks. And he had painted it pink
00:48:20
with paint that was not supposed to be
00:48:22
used for cars cuz you know didn't know
00:48:24
better, didn't have much more. And we
00:48:26
drove through Christ Church and he was
00:48:27
like when is the city going to start?
00:48:29
Where are the people? It was just this
00:48:32
quiet low-lying thing full of yeah empty
00:48:38
spacesh
00:48:39
>> which is kind of scary because you're
00:48:40
like what am I missing?
00:48:42
>> The thing that was going on through my
00:48:44
mind at least the beginning was what am
00:48:46
I missing? Where is the chaos? You know
00:48:48
cuz your brain is wired for it and
00:48:49
you're like yeah that's my vibe. I'm I'm
00:48:51
I'm traveling with it and suddenly there
00:48:53
is
00:48:55
>> nothing. Yeah. you know.
00:48:57
>> Well, um, were you were you mad at your
00:49:00
dad at least for a time?
00:49:01
>> No.
00:49:02
>> No. So, you're 17 years old. All your
00:49:04
friends, all your all your roots, all
00:49:06
your connections are in Bulgaria. Um,
00:49:08
you've you've established yourself as
00:49:10
this this really good diver
00:49:11
>> and then suddenly you've got to like
00:49:14
almost control to start fresh as a
00:49:16
17-year-old. How are you not mad? I mean
00:49:19
you sell you again my dad is an amazing
00:49:22
um salesperson um not professionally
00:49:25
just in interpersonal relationship. So
00:49:27
basically what he sold us is the idea
00:49:28
that we are stepping into New Zealand
00:49:30
for a short period of time to learn
00:49:31
English and experience a different
00:49:33
culture and it's pretty cool thing like
00:49:35
you know everyone in my part of the
00:49:37
world at the time would have dreamed of
00:49:38
the west some sort of space where you
00:49:40
could be free to move to Rome to explore
00:49:43
ideas so that was not a difficult cell.
00:49:46
The other thing is um diving was a thing
00:49:49
I loved but it wasn't the thing I was
00:49:50
imagining myself to do for the rest of
00:49:52
my life. Law was.
00:49:54
>> So I started I I did two years for one
00:49:56
just so I can start at school just so I
00:49:58
can start law school early. My mission
00:50:01
in life when I got to New Zealand was
00:50:02
when we realized that this is not a
00:50:04
short-term thing to dive right into law
00:50:06
school here which was a bit of a dumb
00:50:08
idea cuz we didn't have any English you
00:50:10
know. So I had to take my mom to
00:50:12
university to sign a waiver. My mom
00:50:15
didn't know a word in in English, not
00:50:16
even apple, pier, and red and yellow.
00:50:19
Um, so yeah, so I can start uni as
00:50:22
quickly as I can.
00:50:24
>> So before uni, if I've got the timeline
00:50:26
correct, you go to Haggley High School
00:50:28
for a little bit.
00:50:28
>> I did. Yeah.
00:50:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:30
>> Their intelligence is amazing.
00:50:32
>> So um, so yeah, what's that like? Like
00:50:35
can you remember your first friend?
00:50:37
>> I remember a whole pile of them.
00:50:39
Hopefully they consider themselves my
00:50:40
friends. I still keep them, you know.
00:50:42
Um, I do. I can imagine how um
00:50:47
God I don't know like yeah could you
00:50:50
understand what people were saying or
00:50:51
like how did you form connections? Well,
00:50:53
I couldn't really understand what people
00:50:54
were saying in full, but I can
00:50:56
understand intention and this is the
00:50:58
this is the aim. You submerge yourself
00:50:59
as quickly as you can, right? You move
00:51:02
around the streets and and the thing I'm
00:51:04
I'm I hope New Zealand never changes in
00:51:06
that way. Like the level of acceptance I
00:51:08
felt was extraordinary. I mean there's
00:51:11
this thing I'm sure every u person who
00:51:14
has moved from some place to another and
00:51:16
has an accent realizes how when you have
00:51:19
an accent or you don't have too many
00:51:20
words people think they have to speak to
00:51:22
you extra slow or extra loud that used
00:51:25
to piss me off cuz it's like I
00:51:28
understand I just don't know how to
00:51:30
articulate it back you know
00:51:32
>> but that was the only the only obstacle
00:51:34
is like you know these loud slow
00:51:36
speaking people that I realized it was
00:51:38
not because of them but because of me
00:51:39
which sucks.
00:51:41
Um, but no, I think feeling accepted and
00:51:44
maybe maybe if I wasn't accepted, I
00:51:47
wouldn't have even noticed to be fair
00:51:49
and I don't mean it in any weird way,
00:51:51
but I was so determined to give this a
00:51:54
good go. Um, and we didn't have much
00:51:56
time to to dillydally.
00:51:58
>> I got a job really quickly. we needed to
00:52:00
all uh hunker down and try and make
00:52:04
things work because we didn't have what
00:52:06
we had proportionately in New Zealand
00:52:08
was
00:52:09
>> sweet all um so we all had to work and
00:52:12
so working paying attention to something
00:52:15
that pays you the paycheck teaches you
00:52:17
English real fast
00:52:19
>> you know um
00:52:20
>> yeah so you did some waitressing or
00:52:22
catering jobs
00:52:23
>> yeah all sorts
00:52:24
>> can can you remember um can you remember
00:52:26
um a moment when you realized I belong
00:52:29
Yeah.
00:52:31
>> So, this may be the weird weirdest thing
00:52:33
to say, but maybe it's because of my dad
00:52:35
and his style of upbringing, but the
00:52:37
rule of life was that you belong
00:52:39
wherever you choose to be.
00:52:40
>> Um, and I've loved the fact that I
00:52:42
haven't in New Zealand, I haven't had to
00:52:44
question that. I've never felt like I
00:52:45
had to question it. No one ever made me
00:52:47
feel like I have to pause and inquire.
00:52:50
And this is a big pain point for me now
00:52:52
observing some of the patterns of
00:52:54
behavior we're witnessing globally with
00:52:55
people all over the world um
00:52:57
particularly immigrants and refugees.
00:52:59
That feeling that they have to somehow
00:53:01
earn the right to belong on planet earth
00:53:05
blows my mind because it is a hard yaka.
00:53:08
Like my path was, it may seem tricky,
00:53:11
but it was easy because we were brought
00:53:13
up or accepted to value principles that
00:53:16
make you feel like you could do anything
00:53:17
you want. And all the only measure of
00:53:20
your um discomfort is how far you're
00:53:22
willing to push yourself. I mean, that's
00:53:24
easy. You just it's a game of you versus
00:53:26
you.
00:53:27
>> But the fact that there are people all
00:53:28
over the world that feel as if they have
00:53:30
to somehow fold themselves into a
00:53:32
pretzel to fit in blows my mind. It
00:53:34
annoys me. Do you know what I mean? It
00:53:35
makes me angry. This is one thing I'd
00:53:37
post on social media for as soon as I
00:53:40
stop using blunt words about it. You
00:53:42
know, I was in London uh a couple of six
00:53:45
weeks ago and you know, we know we've
00:53:48
been hearing about what's going on with
00:53:50
our sentiments for the longest of time,
00:53:51
anti-immigrant sentiments. Everyone who
00:53:53
drove me from place to place, everyone
00:53:55
who was in some service industry around
00:53:57
the traps clearly had come from
00:53:59
somewhere. And the level of unease they
00:54:02
reported around who they were and where
00:54:04
they were from made me furious. I just
00:54:06
wanted to stop everything I was doing
00:54:08
and become an activist, you know, cuz
00:54:10
it's just absurd. It's absurd how we we
00:54:13
Yeah. Anyway,
00:54:15
>> so yes, when you come to New Zealand at
00:54:17
17, I'm guessing you don't even know
00:54:18
what the word resilient means, but you
00:54:20
you were clearly you you clearly had
00:54:21
like bucket loads of it
00:54:23
>> without without even sort of being
00:54:25
familiar with what the with what the
00:54:26
word was or what the definition was
00:54:28
>> possibly. I mean,
00:54:29
>> yeah, challenge gives you that if you
00:54:31
choose to if you choose to accept it.
00:54:34
>> Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:36
Mission Impossible. What What parts of
00:54:38
Bulgaria still live with you today?
00:54:40
>> Uh the best the bless the best place on
00:54:42
earth everyone should visit. Maybe one
00:54:44
at a time because it's quite small.
00:54:47
There is an epic village called Mirbo
00:54:49
where my family comes from, my father's
00:54:51
family comes from. Uh I think six
00:54:53
centuries we've come from this place and
00:54:55
it's insane. It's epic. It's in the
00:54:57
middle of the mountains. Um, the place I
00:55:00
grew up has is basically where two
00:55:02
rivers meet and it's quite a unique
00:55:05
cultural flavor about it because it was
00:55:08
never taken over by the Ottomans um,
00:55:10
back in, you know, 800 years ago now.
00:55:12
And so it has its own unique language
00:55:14
and its own unique customs that are
00:55:16
totally bonkers. No one quite believes
00:55:18
in them, but everyone does them anyway.
00:55:20
And it's all in good spirit and it's
00:55:22
freaking epic. I love it. I love it. It
00:55:24
feels like the kind of place I mean it's
00:55:26
not too dissimilar to Cleveland Village
00:55:28
to be fair. Like you move about bare
00:55:31
feet in full respect of your
00:55:32
environment. No one particularly cares.
00:55:34
>> Uh but everyone cares for you
00:55:37
>> if that makes sense.
00:55:38
>> It does. Makes perfect sense.
00:55:39
>> Love it.
00:55:40
>> So you have this dream of being a
00:55:42
lawyer.
00:55:42
>> Yeah.
00:55:42
>> Um so you get into university and you do
00:55:45
two years of law school before you
00:55:46
realize it's not for you. How how
00:55:48
difficult is that? like um trying to get
00:55:52
a law degree while having limited grasp
00:55:54
of the English language.
00:55:56
>> If I
00:55:56
>> did you have to work like so much harder
00:55:58
than everyone else?
00:55:59
>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean
00:56:01
translating every word um was it was
00:56:03
just a silly decision, but I'm also
00:56:05
grateful that I did it. Do you know what
00:56:07
I mean? Cuz that would have been the
00:56:08
hook I have for who I thought I was and
00:56:10
what I was capable of. And so if I had a
00:56:13
um some wise adviser at the time that
00:56:15
told me I probably should wait my time
00:56:18
and gradually build my capabilities to
00:56:20
match my ambition, I would have just
00:56:22
been devastated cuz it's maybe part of
00:56:24
it is so one thing I had that I noticed
00:56:27
at the beginning was
00:56:29
that whole idea that because you cannot
00:56:31
speak clearly enough that you don't
00:56:32
understand the world to the same extent
00:56:34
as others do and that used to piss me
00:56:36
off, right? So I desperately wanted to
00:56:37
feel free to do this maybe communist
00:56:40
upbringing maybe just my mindset but
00:56:42
capacity for contribution means the
00:56:44
world
00:56:44
>> and there's a proximity to my
00:56:46
experiences like Bosnia and some of the
00:56:48
conflicts that I' studied from around
00:56:50
the world international law um human
00:56:53
rights was an obsession I had and I
00:56:55
still do. It's just that by the time
00:56:57
when I spent two years in law school
00:56:59
studying every spare minute I had it was
00:57:01
either work or study that was there was
00:57:03
nothing nothing else
00:57:05
>> uh all times of the day and night. I got
00:57:08
to summer school international law um to
00:57:13
realize how impotent it was. And it felt
00:57:16
devastating that I invested two years of
00:57:18
my youth and gotten my first wrinkles,
00:57:20
you know, doing something that was
00:57:22
useless. And I'm not saying it is, but
00:57:25
it felt as if it was to my restless and
00:57:27
immature mind at the time. Um, and at
00:57:30
the same time, just literally across the
00:57:33
yard was I did law and psych uh
00:57:36
conjoined and psych felt a no-brainer
00:57:38
because it's just I mean, who doesn't
00:57:40
know who who doesn't want to know
00:57:41
everything about human psychology? It's
00:57:43
epic. So, it was easy, that was smooth,
00:57:46
that was just logical and exciting thing
00:57:49
to do. There was an epic professor next
00:57:51
door uh at law school called Ming Singer
00:57:54
and she was studying weirdly I mean she
00:57:57
was studying um refugee and immigrants
00:58:01
um establishment kind of principles of
00:58:03
establishment how did they integrate in
00:58:04
a new context and she suggested that to
00:58:07
me once she probably didn't even mean it
00:58:09
and I walked out of law school and I was
00:58:11
like please take me as a student can be
00:58:13
here and so she had to remember who I
00:58:15
was for a minute um yeah and accept
00:58:19
and and then you sort of um accidentally
00:58:21
end up in the army. Uh I believe the
00:58:23
story goes you had a a male friend who
00:58:26
who was going to um interview and you
00:58:28
sort of just tagged along for shits and
00:58:30
giggles.
00:58:31
>> Well, also for research purposes because
00:58:32
it was an
00:58:33
>> what do you mean?
00:58:35
>> No one ever says that.
00:58:36
>> Yeah, everyone does.
00:58:40
No, also because um so New Zealand
00:58:43
Defense Force selection officer
00:58:45
selection board is pretty much uh
00:58:47
considered and not just New Zealand
00:58:49
defense force. Selection boards of
00:58:50
militaries are the mecca of profiling
00:58:54
and behavioral observations and I was an
00:58:56
industrial psychologist or at least I'd
00:58:57
studied uh my masters in industrial and
00:59:00
organizational psychology at the time
00:59:02
and if you want to know anything about
00:59:03
how this stuff is done at scale you'd
00:59:05
want to go there and what a better way
00:59:07
of learning it than being in it. I mean
00:59:09
that is just the best like it's the best
00:59:11
putri dish of all things mega geeky
00:59:15
science. So um yeah rocked on in to
00:59:18
support. I had already lined up a job in
00:59:20
a local um
00:59:22
>> consultancy place.
00:59:23
>> Yes.
00:59:23
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:24
>> That now back I probably should have
00:59:26
been a wiser person. Do you see how many
00:59:27
times we say that to ourselves? It's
00:59:29
like if I was just a little wiser.
00:59:31
>> Mhm. Yeah.
00:59:32
>> Do you ever do you ever stop to think um
00:59:34
I mean hypotheticals are kind of a waste
00:59:35
of time, but do you ever wonder how
00:59:36
different life would have looked if you
00:59:38
went that way instead of this way?
00:59:39
>> I'm so grateful I didn't cuz the minute
00:59:42
I think of it, I mean, as much as this
00:59:43
place is incredible, everyone there is
00:59:45
incredible. I have a handful of friends
00:59:48
that are still in that fabric and that
00:59:50
are in that town and they are amazing
00:59:52
human beings. But maybe there's a
00:59:55
personality, a series of personality
00:59:56
flaws in me that make me want to know
00:59:59
the world intimately. messily. I want to
01:00:02
roll with I want I want to roll with
01:00:04
life. So the thought of going back there
01:00:06
and having chosen that safe logical path
01:00:09
frightens the be Jesus out of me
01:00:11
>> cuz it just makes me feel like
01:00:14
>> nothing would have changed from Monday
01:00:17
to Friday or from year 2000 to 2005. I
01:00:20
would have just been the same climbing
01:00:22
up some kind of ladder. I don't even
01:00:24
want to be on minding some kind of ooh
01:00:27
yuck. No. Surely there were there were
01:00:29
moments though where where you're stuck
01:00:30
in Wuru in the middle of winter and
01:00:33
you're like, "Oh, an air conditioned
01:00:34
office would be quite nice right now."
01:00:36
No,
01:00:36
>> no, no. But there were there was a time
01:00:40
when my husband and I decided we were
01:00:41
going to be proper grown-ups and like
01:00:43
sensible adults and we had a child and a
01:00:45
farm and some chickens or whatever. And
01:00:48
I remember being in this thing which
01:00:49
became it's a weed garden, but I keep
01:00:51
calling it the meditation garden cuz
01:00:53
it's got a platform for meditation that
01:00:55
no one sits on. So I was there and I
01:00:58
remember must have been a day when Jamie
01:00:59
and I were trying to be normal. Um and
01:01:02
it was freaking frustrating because it
01:01:04
was like if you like you this you know
01:01:07
pressure cooker environment where you
01:01:09
just try to have some sort of average
01:01:12
exchange and we hadn't been in the same
01:01:14
house ever in our relationship when we
01:01:17
had but never at the same time. You know
01:01:19
we had kind of overlapping deployments
01:01:21
for the first three years of our
01:01:22
relationship which is why it flourished.
01:01:24
It flourished our relationship from a
01:01:26
distance and then suddenly we were stuck
01:01:28
together and I was on the on the
01:01:30
platform and I out loud said what the
01:01:33
have I done
01:01:36
and it would have been and then poor
01:01:38
Jamie heard it and it hurt his feelings
01:01:40
and then it took us three years to have
01:01:42
a conversation about that moment.
01:01:44
>> I genuinely had this like holy moly it's
01:01:46
gotten to me. How creepy is that?
01:01:49
>> Poor men.
01:01:51
>> Yeah. How did how did you guys Yeah. How
01:01:53
did you how did you what's the meat
01:01:54
cute? How did you get together?
01:01:56
>> Um we worked together uh in the unit and
01:01:59
>> is this when was so he was in the SAS
01:02:01
and you were the SAS psychologist?
01:02:02
>> Yeah.
01:02:03
>> Yeah.
01:02:03
>> Yeah.
01:02:04
>> This Yeah, this viewing Jamie has a
01:02:06
different report. Jamie thinks that I
01:02:08
chased after him. I don't remember him.
01:02:10
>> I didn't notice him.
01:02:14
>> I don't remember him at that beginning
01:02:16
point. Um and definitely didn't notice
01:02:18
him chasing me. So he must have just
01:02:19
been overcrowded in a chase. But um
01:02:22
yeah, poor man. So he we
01:02:26
sorry and I've got a bit of a flight
01:02:27
thing so I'm I'm coughing on occasion.
01:02:29
We uh relationship
01:02:32
I think the attraction between us had
01:02:34
been building for some time but uh the
01:02:36
way in which uh work was aligned
01:02:38
basically meant that it wasn't a good
01:02:40
idea for us to be together. Um and
01:02:42
because we were in the same team it's
01:02:43
just a messy messy thing. So I'd moved
01:02:46
out of the team by that stage. We had
01:02:50
couple of interactions. Jamie thought
01:02:51
that they were romantic. I didn't
01:02:53
recognize them to be that. Then we
01:02:55
switched over and Jamie thought that I
01:02:57
was not interested and I was very
01:02:59
interested. And then he went to he
01:03:01
actually went to Afghanistan. Um, and so
01:03:03
he had done this incredible trip by his
01:03:06
lonesome self on his Harley-Davidson
01:03:08
from the top of the north to the bottom
01:03:09
of the south by himself on a Harley to
01:03:11
set his mind for the next uh chapter and
01:03:16
came past my house in Christ Church to
01:03:18
give me this collection of stones that
01:03:20
he picked up from um a lake along the
01:03:23
way, which is the most romantic thing
01:03:25
someone like Jamie would do. um he's
01:03:28
he's an amazing dude, you know, but
01:03:30
that's these forming stages of his
01:03:33
romantic bone was not a it wasn't a
01:03:36
thing he would, you know, um and so that
01:03:39
moment locked in and we became a couple
01:03:41
when he was in Afghanistan. So, uh, via
01:03:45
Teams or Zoom or one of those platforms,
01:03:47
we had a moment where in the most
01:03:49
uncomfortable way possible, him and I,
01:03:51
who would typically be clowns and, uh,
01:03:54
fight with one another for work reasons,
01:03:56
all of a sudden locked eyes onto each
01:03:58
other and had the most uncomfortable 10
01:03:59
minutes of staring, gazing into each
01:04:01
other's eyes from a distance, and that
01:04:02
was it. How crazy is that?
01:04:05
>> It's such a cool story. And um it seems
01:04:07
like a really good just you know you've
01:04:09
said a few things today sort of teasing
01:04:11
him so it seems like a really cool
01:04:12
relationship you've got.
01:04:14
>> Um
01:04:16
>> yeah so lead psychologist in the SAS
01:04:19
like what what does that mean in real
01:04:20
terms? Are you like are they are these
01:04:23
guys coming to you when they've got like
01:04:25
issues and they need counseling or are
01:04:26
you just sort of observing them from
01:04:27
afar and then um passing your findings
01:04:30
on to their superiors? Like what does it
01:04:32
mean? I mean the the core function every
01:04:34
psychologist in the team um is kind of
01:04:38
quite a crucial part of the cog. This is
01:04:39
a very very small team we're talking
01:04:41
about that even if they're not in an
01:04:42
operational cycle uh operating under
01:04:44
extreme pressure because training has to
01:04:47
match operational context. So they move
01:04:49
at quite a high cadence. The core role
01:04:52
of the unit psychologist has always been
01:04:53
to help selecting who steps through the
01:04:56
gates. So typically historically we
01:04:59
would have had army, navy and air force
01:05:00
candidates. So these are people who are
01:05:02
experienced in the military service that
01:05:04
volunteer themselves for service with
01:05:05
the SS and the psychologists independent
01:05:08
from other observers who are members of
01:05:11
the team conduct separate observations
01:05:14
based on personality traits that they
01:05:16
observe through profiling as well as
01:05:17
what they witness during interviews and
01:05:20
during the course of selection. That
01:05:21
nasty grueling six day mother of a
01:05:24
challenge that they go through. And then
01:05:27
you support candidates through a
01:05:29
training cycle that takes a whole year
01:05:30
and it's nasty and it isolates them into
01:05:33
a constant state of pain. Sorry for
01:05:34
that. Um you observe them through this
01:05:37
process and then of course you stay with
01:05:38
the team on every rotation that they do
01:05:42
which is operational rotation or
01:05:43
training rotation. Um making sure that
01:05:46
they are in the best state possible to
01:05:48
operate effectively. So it's the most
01:05:50
difficult challenge to No, it's not the
01:05:52
most difficult. It makes perfect sense.
01:05:55
Everyone who is in this space wants to
01:05:57
see themselves at the best because if
01:05:59
they aren't they deplete the very thing
01:06:01
they believe in, right? They detract
01:06:02
from it. So it's a it's an easier
01:06:04
formulation in that way. You don't have
01:06:06
to sell the proposition to someone who
01:06:07
feels suboptimal. They need to step
01:06:09
aside because they know intimately what
01:06:12
it means to have one component of a
01:06:14
critical fabric that doesn't quite
01:06:17
function as it as it should. Um but yeah
01:06:20
the job the job goes on and on and on
01:06:22
because you form extremely deep uh
01:06:25
relationships of extreme trust with
01:06:28
people uh and many of them step away and
01:06:31
the nature of who they are and how they
01:06:32
work means that they step away and
01:06:34
remove themselves entirely from from the
01:06:37
fabric from defense force as well often.
01:06:39
Um so yeah
01:06:40
>> and do do they do they I say you but I'm
01:06:43
specifically talking about this role the
01:06:45
lead psychologist do they do they like
01:06:47
you or do they just tolerate you? Are
01:06:48
you a a pain in the ass? You know what I
01:06:51
mean? Are you are you a speed bump on
01:06:53
their on their way to reaching their
01:06:55
goal?
01:06:55
>> I sincerely hope. I mean, it could be
01:06:57
all of these things at the same time for
01:06:58
some people, right? Because it depends
01:07:00
on the message that you deliver. Um, but
01:07:03
you are an enabler first and foremost
01:07:05
and anyone who cares enough, which they
01:07:07
do if they get there and have has enough
01:07:10
cognitive ability to process the
01:07:11
function you serve should see you as
01:07:13
that. And they do. They see you as an
01:07:15
enabler. It is our job to make sure that
01:07:17
everyone with what they've got as they
01:07:20
say words and all feels like they can
01:07:24
that white noise can be reduced that
01:07:26
they can be the optimal performer in the
01:07:28
context that they've got.
01:07:30
>> So the ones that are paying attention
01:07:31
which by the way is everyone
01:07:33
>> know it and they use it and they take
01:07:35
full advantage of it and it's the
01:07:36
hardest and the most rewarding job on
01:07:38
the planet.
01:07:40
>> Are they able to trick you? I'm sure
01:07:42
they try but but they trick themselves
01:07:44
like you know it kind of you leak you
01:07:46
know you leak the truth right you leak
01:07:48
the truth because why because you know
01:07:50
if you trick me you trick yourself you
01:07:52
get found out this is the thing about
01:07:53
it's not a blurry officy space like you
01:07:55
can't hide behind a wall you can't hide
01:07:57
and make yourself an instant coffee
01:07:58
around a corner it's an environment that
01:08:01
shows you it fleshes out all your
01:08:03
vulnerabilities so tinkering on the
01:08:05
edges of fibbing and masking is just
01:08:07
like you just
01:08:09
>> it's a long way down to the mice
01:08:12
It's like you'd want to pull the pin on
01:08:13
that stuff real quick and just be blunt
01:08:15
about it cuz it shows it. It shows all
01:08:17
your spikes real quick.
01:08:19
>> So, you mentioned the the the grueling
01:08:21
um six day training and the other
01:08:23
training that goes along. So, what sort
01:08:25
of conditions are you in during that
01:08:26
that time? Are you are you staying in
01:08:28
nice barracks with
01:08:29
>> nice barracks and I love how you say
01:08:31
sheets barracks. Of course
01:08:34
you get I mean this is cruel thing to
01:08:36
say because in comparison to every
01:08:39
everyone else they get no sleep
01:08:41
effective or they get enough sleep to uh
01:08:43
be physically possible and survivable
01:08:46
for them to continue with the selection
01:08:47
course but you know there's the
01:08:50
necessity of the process basically means
01:08:52
that you get you know minimal two hours
01:08:54
sleep you sleep wherever you can but
01:08:56
it's nothing compared to what a
01:08:57
candidate would go through on a
01:08:59
selection course you know what I mean
01:09:00
it's yeah And and your body your body
01:09:03
isn't fussy when you need sleep, you
01:09:06
know, you just
01:09:07
>> Oh, sleep sleep deprivation is one of
01:09:09
the worst. E I hate it so much.
01:09:11
>> Do you did you work with um Willie
01:09:13
Apiata or can you not really say can you
01:09:15
not sort of talk about specifics?
01:09:17
>> Well, he was part of our team when I was
01:09:19
in the team. So, yeah, absolutely.
01:09:21
>> Yeah. What what's he like?
01:09:23
>> Awesome. as the rest of them. Yeah,
01:09:26
>> they're all unique and special in their
01:09:28
own way, but yeah,
01:09:29
>> I value him immensely.
01:09:32
>> Yeah. What what makes these guys stand
01:09:34
out from the rest of of the army or
01:09:36
society or the people that try for the
01:09:38
SAS and don't make it?
01:09:39
>> So, this is the piece behind that
01:09:43
resilience toolkit component. We spent a
01:09:45
lot of time wondering um over the years
01:09:47
we would even do benevolent kind of
01:09:50
competition between assessors about
01:09:52
choosing or basically placing our bets
01:09:54
on who would make it through. And so
01:09:56
you'd imagine that there are things like
01:09:57
physical robustness or physical grit and
01:09:59
hardiness that makes you capable of
01:10:01
passing through selection. But that's
01:10:03
the least important part. Um the
01:10:05
starting point, the most consistent
01:10:07
point we know matters most is
01:10:09
self-awareness. If you don't understand
01:10:11
yourself, like you said, sleep
01:10:13
deprivation sucks, right? It's
01:10:14
physically painful. It's agonizing. It
01:10:16
does hell with your brain and your
01:10:18
thoughts. But if you have self-awareness
01:10:19
and you have the ability and the
01:10:21
experience to help you manage yourself
01:10:23
in moments of trial and duress, you know
01:10:26
how to endure this moment and how to
01:10:29
show up and and let your body catch up
01:10:31
with your ambition. And so people who
01:10:33
understand themselves first and
01:10:35
foremost, that's a core criteria. If
01:10:37
they don't they don't know how to adjust
01:10:38
and adapt themselves to different
01:10:40
context. The role itself demands that
01:10:42
you are what do they call it? Swiss uh
01:10:46
knife.
01:10:46
>> Army knife. Swiss army knife. Yeah.
01:10:48
Yeah.
01:10:48
>> So you more adjust, adapt in order to
01:10:50
achieve the mission.
01:10:51
>> If you can't if you don't know who you
01:10:53
are and how to manage yourself, you
01:10:55
know, you you don't have the the
01:10:57
capability and robustness to morph and
01:10:59
adjust. So self-awareness and
01:11:00
interpersonal awareness, interpersonal
01:11:02
curiosity, contextual intelligence.
01:11:04
Contextual intelligence means being able
01:11:07
to read the cues and cues in your
01:11:09
context and adapt in order to amplify
01:11:11
success mission. Um and that in turn
01:11:14
takes ability for access to curiosity
01:11:17
which means they have to have high level
01:11:19
of stress tolerance because you can be
01:11:22
you know like I was telling you at the
01:11:23
beginning you can't be freaked out and
01:11:24
curious at the same time
01:11:26
>> but curiosity is critical predictor. So
01:11:29
intellect of course is a key thing not
01:11:32
necessarily by on the book but ability
01:11:34
to look at things flip them around and
01:11:37
see a different perspective or different
01:11:39
way of
01:11:40
>> engaging. And for for for the most part,
01:11:43
I know everyone's different, but for the
01:11:44
most part, are these guys um sort of
01:11:47
like emotionally unavailable or
01:11:49
reluctant to, you know, talk about
01:11:51
vulnerability and, you know, deep stuff
01:11:54
or or No,
01:11:56
>> no. I think maybe the threshold is
01:11:57
different.
01:11:58
>> The what the threshold? Yeah, because I
01:12:00
mean so yeah, I don't think I don't
01:12:01
think so because it's extremely
01:12:03
difficult to be emotionally unavailable
01:12:06
um when you have some of the most
01:12:09
complex emotions that you have to
01:12:11
logically navigate or emotionally
01:12:12
process through your system, right? But
01:12:14
it's more about what is the threshold.
01:12:16
Um and and some of the some of the
01:12:19
reasons why perhaps some of them might
01:12:20
be perceived as emotionally unavailable
01:12:22
is the fact that operationally they
01:12:24
cannot disclose a lot of the stuff that
01:12:26
may trigger emotion or has trapped or
01:12:29
caused them to experience the most
01:12:31
significant emotions in their lives. And
01:12:33
then there's of course a question of um
01:12:36
magnitude and relevance like how do you
01:12:39
if you have traveled in a in the same
01:12:40
bubble with these same individuals for
01:12:43
five to 10 to 20 years suddenly relate
01:12:46
to someone who decides the biggest pain
01:12:48
in their existence is how the
01:12:49
administrator is stuffing up the coffee
01:12:51
order. It's like what
01:12:54
do you know what I mean?
01:12:55
>> And choose that instead of addressing
01:12:57
the issue they're going to [ __ ] about
01:12:58
it. Like that's I don't think that's
01:13:00
emotionally negative. That's that's
01:13:02
basic intellect, right?
01:13:03
>> Yeah. That's what I was saying at the
01:13:05
beginning, like how do you not roll your
01:13:06
eyes at the the triviality of some of
01:13:09
the stuff you deal with these days? Like
01:13:10
the problems must just seem so
01:13:12
insignificant.
01:13:13
>> Yeah.
01:13:14
>> Yeah.
01:13:15
>> Um your military career took you um to
01:13:19
deployments all over the place,
01:13:20
Afghanistan, Syria, the Middle East,
01:13:22
East Teor, Solomon Islands. Um what did
01:13:24
the military unlock that civilian life
01:13:26
just couldn't?
01:13:29
I mean I I firstly the the idea of
01:13:32
belonging and camaraderie and how much
01:13:34
this means like right how you can find
01:13:37
yourself at home anywhere how if you
01:13:40
have something to offer you can make it
01:13:42
so that you are and feel accepted no
01:13:44
matter where you go. The I'm I love I
01:13:47
love the feeling of knowing I'm at home
01:13:50
wherever I go. It still stays with me.
01:13:52
Right. I've got my my backpack is in my
01:13:54
car. Can you believe it? Normally I have
01:13:55
it with me and is that there's that
01:13:57
feeling that you don't need very much to
01:14:00
be effective and to contribute. I know I
01:14:02
keep saying the words contribute but
01:14:03
that does matter the world to me. Um
01:14:05
also it unlocks immense level of
01:14:07
interpersonal curiosity. Normally when
01:14:09
we thinking of military we are thinking
01:14:11
about highly regimented and structured
01:14:13
environments. That's a part of it for
01:14:15
safety reasons and to develop your
01:14:16
skills and capabilities. But past that
01:14:19
point you have to be able to earn
01:14:21
respect with everyone. and everyone you
01:14:23
might be in charge of, everyone that
01:14:25
might be in charge of you. And that
01:14:27
means you show up in the fullness of
01:14:29
your range.
01:14:30
>> It's amazing. It's amazing experience.
01:14:32
I've loved it.
01:14:33
>> I I just can't imagine. Um yes, I've met
01:14:35
you twice now. I met you in Christ
01:14:37
Church had a keynote thing about a month
01:14:38
ago and um you're in the studio today
01:14:40
and uh on both occasions you've been
01:14:42
immaculately presented. I'd even go as
01:14:44
far to say you're the best dressed
01:14:46
podcast guest I've had in 300 guests. I
01:14:48
I can't imagine you um yeah roughing up
01:14:50
with um with boots on and military over
01:14:54
military over something really
01:14:55
embarrassing. Okay, so my my I had I
01:14:58
have a boss who probably um uh yeah
01:15:01
Steve I don't know how I didn't destroy
01:15:03
him but Steve is amazing guy and when I
01:15:06
got selected and uh was sent to Wudu. So
01:15:09
the thing about dressing up is I I I
01:15:12
like it because life is extremely
01:15:14
precious and if I'm to show up I like to
01:15:16
show up with respect to my physical
01:15:18
space, right? And so it's not I don't
01:15:20
obsess over it. I just happen to have a
01:15:22
handful of things I like to I like to
01:15:24
pay respect to my day, right? Um but
01:15:26
when I joined the army firstly I'm the
01:15:28
one that would iron I didn't realize you
01:15:30
shouldn't be ironing your DPMS your um
01:15:33
you know kind of field equip your field
01:15:35
uh suit because of course it has lines
01:15:38
in it that you could see through
01:15:39
binoculars for the longest of time I'd
01:15:41
iron my uniform I was the only one that
01:15:43
would do it took me a hot second to
01:15:45
learn it paid my paid my price for it um
01:15:49
at the end you see be incognito because
01:15:51
I'd be shining like a bright star in
01:15:52
someone's binoculars in the night you
01:15:54
know uh but the next layer to it is that
01:15:56
I uh apparently I don't remember that
01:15:58
but I found the DPMS which is your field
01:16:01
dress in the military to be quite
01:16:04
unfitting for women and so I I asked my
01:16:06
boss one of my first question is can I
01:16:08
ask a tailor to shape it
01:16:10
>> you're doing alterations
01:16:12
>> what a muppet what a muppet and and the
01:16:15
thing is I get to see this same amazing
01:16:17
dude called Steve who I know I know he
01:16:19
he values me as the greatest challenge
01:16:22
of his career um but also he every here.
01:16:25
He goes, "Oh, Alia asked if she can
01:16:26
shape her DPM." I'm like, "Get over it."
01:16:28
You know, still, you know, we can still
01:16:30
look good. We don't have to look like
01:16:32
sex of potatoes, but apparently that's
01:16:34
operationally functional.
01:16:35
>> So, yeah,
01:16:36
>> it's such a great story. We've been
01:16:38
going for an hour 15 and we haven't even
01:16:40
talked about the um 2013 Syria incident.
01:16:44
Um,
01:16:46
>> is it difficult for you to talk about or
01:16:47
when you talk about it, do you just sort
01:16:49
of go on autopilot or
01:16:52
>> Probably probably the autopilot part. I
01:16:54
don't find it difficult,
01:16:55
>> you know.
01:16:56
>> Was it difficult to talk about for a
01:16:58
time or no? Has it never been?
01:17:01
>> I don't think so. I think the difficult
01:17:03
part was um imagining that it has to be
01:17:07
difficult, you know. I I don't find it
01:17:09
>> can you explain that
01:17:10
>> like you know so for example the so if
01:17:12
you're thinking about being taken
01:17:14
hostage right um it is a difficult thing
01:17:18
typically to communicate and to process
01:17:20
but in our situation we had
01:17:21
opportunities to gain control of the
01:17:23
situation to influence our experience to
01:17:25
the better and more importantly after we
01:17:27
were released we requested a period of
01:17:30
time and were kept on our observation
01:17:33
post the same place we were taken from
01:17:35
and unpacked every little moment
01:17:37
of our interaction together as a team.
01:17:40
So for us that was a closed space. Now
01:17:43
as a psych it took me ages to realize
01:17:45
why is it not difficult for me to talk
01:17:46
about it and in fact because I don't
01:17:48
think of it as in any way the most
01:17:50
frightening thing in life. It's easy for
01:17:52
me to talk about it but it's not
01:17:54
important to the same extent as it might
01:17:56
be interesting to someone who hasn't
01:17:58
heard it before. But one of the things
01:18:00
that I hesitate as a psych is this
01:18:02
temptation we have to look for trauma
01:18:04
where it isn't or to try to imagine that
01:18:08
something was um overwhelming or
01:18:12
challenging when it was perhaps
01:18:14
interesting more than painful you know
01:18:18
so I don't know what I mean what I mean
01:18:19
by that it wasn't difficult um it's not
01:18:22
difficult for me to talk about it was
01:18:23
difficult to go through it but not
01:18:25
difficult to talk about it
01:18:27
>> that that must be the most frightening
01:18:28
thing that's ever happened in your life
01:18:30
though, right?
01:18:33
>> Top three.
01:18:33
>> Not necessarily.
01:18:34
>> Top five.
01:18:35
>> No, not necessarily. It was just
01:18:36
>> Not necessarily. What what what could
01:18:38
what could top that?
01:18:39
>> I mean, there were other situations
01:18:41
where we felt we had less control. Uh
01:18:43
and luckily they transpired well. Um
01:18:48
I I genuinely think the most frightening
01:18:52
far more frightening things have
01:18:54
happened to me or I feel I felt more
01:18:56
frightened as a civilian. um you know,
01:18:59
navigating the office politics I didn't
01:19:01
realize existed prior to that, you know,
01:19:04
and I'm not being I'm not being funny
01:19:05
about it. That seems a whole heap more
01:19:07
complex than negotiating your release
01:19:10
out of a hostage situation. Again, for
01:19:12
that same reason is that you have fewer
01:19:14
options, you know,
01:19:16
>> it's you can be crystal clear.
01:19:18
>> Yeah. But it's as I said at the
01:19:20
beginning, like one's a matter of
01:19:21
potentially life and death and the other
01:19:23
one isn't.
01:19:24
>> Yeah.
01:19:24
>> Okay. So um before the kidnapping, what
01:19:27
did a normal day look like as a UN
01:19:29
military observer?
01:19:31
>> Well, see this is the thing. The normal
01:19:32
days were not particularly normal um
01:19:35
because at the time 2013 it was
01:19:38
operationally intense period. It still
01:19:40
is um in the region. It's just that we
01:19:42
have much fewer UN military observers in
01:19:44
the area. And so uh a normal day would
01:19:46
basically entailed navigating streets
01:19:49
that would be peppered with improvised
01:19:50
explosive device and you don't always
01:19:52
have the intel on that. You don't know
01:19:54
where you're going and whether the
01:19:55
places you're going are risk or low
01:19:57
risk. The overall operational area was
01:20:01
considered high threat. We knew that.
01:20:03
But you don't know where that threat
01:20:04
will present itself. And because you're
01:20:06
talking about multiple groups fighting
01:20:08
against each other as well as against
01:20:11
the government forces, military forces,
01:20:13
you simply couldn't predict where the
01:20:16
hot spot would be. You can make
01:20:17
assumptions. That was our job is to read
01:20:19
the terrain and make assumptions of what
01:20:21
area is safe to progress through or not.
01:20:23
Um but it was always kind of
01:20:25
appreciating that your intelligence is
01:20:27
quite limited and that is very much uh
01:20:30
fickle and subject to a whole heap of
01:20:32
changes that
01:20:33
>> not even the people initiating them
01:20:35
would know you know so it's extremely
01:20:36
messy and volatile environment.
01:20:39
>> Um the biggest threat I guess that was
01:20:42
that that was one of them. Another one
01:20:44
was increasing um I guess discontent in
01:20:48
local populations with UN presence and
01:20:50
what they perceived to be lack of impact
01:20:53
or lack of power that we held. Now the
01:20:56
UN had been there for many decades. Uh
01:20:59
and there was a different perception of
01:21:01
it in the past. People had relied upon
01:21:02
it. But as the conflict increased and
01:21:05
this starvation started kicking in and
01:21:07
areas were obliterated in conflict,
01:21:10
you know, you were perceived as an
01:21:12
imbugance or an entitlement by some. So
01:21:15
gestures like the ones we were given
01:21:16
when we were taken hostage, which is
01:21:18
this one, we'll chop your heads off,
01:21:19
began to pop up as you're patrolling
01:21:21
streets. In the past, you'd have kids
01:21:23
waving at you because they expect you to
01:21:24
be some kind of savior, but we hadn't
01:21:27
proven proven ourselves in this extreme.
01:21:29
It wasn't our mission.
01:21:31
>> Uh so extremely complicated because you
01:21:33
also are a human that empathizes and
01:21:36
observes the environment. And it felt
01:21:38
the whole way through that we were in a
01:21:39
fishbowl with some sort of assumed power
01:21:42
and influence observing extraordinary
01:21:45
and unjustifiable human suffering.
01:21:48
>> A mess. and we had the power and the
01:21:51
capabilities to move out of that space
01:21:53
ourselves. Now, that was the surreal
01:21:54
thing. Imagine you're traversing the
01:21:56
streets of a nearby suburb, knowing full
01:21:59
well that this suburb is in agony and on
01:22:01
fire physically often, and you have the
01:22:04
freedom to pop over through a gate and
01:22:06
have a cup of tea and glass of wine next
01:22:09
door on the other side of a fence. That
01:22:11
is simply symbolic. And for you, because
01:22:13
you have a UN armored vehicle and a
01:22:15
special UN pass, you could step in and
01:22:17
out as many times as you fancy without
01:22:20
any repercussions, whereas everyone is
01:22:22
locked on the other side. It's just it's
01:22:24
it's insane. It's insane. And you still
01:22:26
have to do the good work because if you
01:22:30
remove yourself, it becomes a failed
01:22:31
state. Do you know what I mean? It's a
01:22:33
nasty catch 22.
01:22:36
>> But did you have any idea that something
01:22:38
like this could happen? you know, it's a
01:22:40
possibility, but like do you think it's
01:22:42
a 1% possibility, a 10% chance, five?
01:22:44
Yeah. What sort of
01:22:46
>> what sort of likelihood what I know you
01:22:47
train for this, but what sort of
01:22:48
likelihood is it that something like
01:22:50
this is going to happen?
01:22:51
>> I mean, there's there's there's so many
01:22:52
if then if then if then in this kind of
01:22:56
equation, right? So, if you're stepping
01:22:57
into these places and you're
01:22:58
volunteering yourself for a mission of
01:22:59
this nature,
01:23:01
>> um you are prepared for the extremes.
01:23:04
And if you don't expect that this is
01:23:07
100% possibility, you're not prepared.
01:23:08
you're just contemplating an option and
01:23:10
that's not an entertainment u you know
01:23:13
service it's a military service so the
01:23:15
point I'm making is you have to be
01:23:18
prepared and have considered virtually
01:23:19
every eventuality or you are liability
01:23:22
the job is then not to make that
01:23:24
possibility the thing that you know I
01:23:27
guess masks your judgment or reasoning
01:23:30
and to know that no matter what
01:23:32
possibility presents itself at 100% risk
01:23:35
you have your wits about you to make the
01:23:38
right response to make the right
01:23:39
decision.
01:23:40
>> Uh and to get yourself out of a pickle
01:23:42
and others that's the most important
01:23:44
part.
01:23:45
>> Yeah.
01:23:47
>> So you're sleeping at night. It's night
01:23:49
time.
01:23:49
>> Yeah.
01:23:50
>> And then what? Windows break.
01:23:53
>> Windows break. Doors doors get barged
01:23:55
open. What happens?
01:23:56
>> Yeah. So middle of the night, May 2013.
01:23:59
This was probably uh 5 months into my
01:24:01
deployment cycle. Nearly six in Syria.
01:24:04
We'd already been moved out of number of
01:24:06
areas that were considered unsafe and we
01:24:08
were in an area that was considered
01:24:10
safer than the rest very close to an
01:24:12
area of evacuation into Israel. And so
01:24:15
in the middle of the night I um actually
01:24:17
woke up in so we had this container
01:24:20
building which was our sleeping quarters
01:24:22
or kind of uh observation post living
01:24:24
area and in it'll have a small area that
01:24:27
was basically an operational center
01:24:29
which is radios and laptops and stuff um
01:24:32
and two bedrooms adjacent to it as well
01:24:34
as a bunker on a side of it where our
01:24:36
third team member would sleep and we
01:24:38
would be on rotation because of the
01:24:39
level of threatening area was um so
01:24:41
severe that we had to have someone on
01:24:43
observation.
01:24:44
um throughout. So, it was my turn to
01:24:47
rest. My colleague was on duty that
01:24:50
night and I woke up. Um two weird
01:24:53
things. The first one wasn't too weird.
01:24:54
So, I heard Miko making a Mayday call,
01:24:56
which was my colleague. And mayday call
01:24:58
basically means, you know, something is
01:25:00
seriously wrong. Um and he was making
01:25:03
the Mayday call to a headquarters on the
01:25:05
other side of the fence. And at the same
01:25:07
time, I heard a whole heap of noises
01:25:09
that in my sleepy state I were I thought
01:25:12
were foxes barking. And I don't know, I
01:25:15
mean, I'm sorry I've said that story a
01:25:17
couple of times, but it is what it is.
01:25:19
So over the over micros seconds, I
01:25:22
caught myself thinking, ah, there are
01:25:23
foxes barking. And then my brain went,
01:25:25
well, why would there be foxes barking?
01:25:27
Do foxes bark? Do we have foxes here?
01:25:30
You know, when you go through this like
01:25:31
weird and all you want to do is just
01:25:33
stay asleep because you're wiped out.
01:25:36
Um, and then basically I woke up because
01:25:39
I appreciated that maybe I still don't
01:25:41
know if foxes bark. I keep meaning to
01:25:42
Google it and I still have no I still
01:25:45
don't know.
01:25:47
So the foxes barking were a bunch of
01:25:49
lads um, you know. So this was a militia
01:25:53
group amalgamation of all sorts of
01:25:54
betties jumping over our fences uh, and
01:25:58
issuing out orders to one another um,
01:26:00
rapid fire. Miko was observing one
01:26:02
particular angle of a observation post
01:26:04
that had limited an vista. Um so limited
01:26:07
kind of scope of observation where he
01:26:08
was uh and when I uh woke up when I got
01:26:12
up I could see that there's a whole heap
01:26:13
of men already surrounding a observation
01:26:15
area. Now, this may not seem too odd
01:26:18
that you suddenly have a whole bunch of
01:26:20
armed militants, 38 of them counted um
01:26:23
surrounding an observation post, but it
01:26:26
was quite uncommon uh because these
01:26:28
areas were wrapped by minefields for our
01:26:31
protection. They were also heavily
01:26:33
fenced and so they clearly meant more
01:26:36
than a sweet coma to have made that
01:26:38
effort. And then you have you for weeks
01:26:41
prior to that um we knew that we were
01:26:43
being observed. So we were observing
01:26:45
being observed by others. There was an
01:26:47
area nearby uh which was a water tower,
01:26:50
an abandoned water tower that had been
01:26:51
occupied. We knew that you know it was
01:26:54
occupied because there was light on and
01:26:56
we could see ourselves being watched. So
01:26:58
we knew they know how many of us there
01:27:00
are. They knew our patterns of movement
01:27:02
clearly. They weren't too difficult to
01:27:03
decipher. It wasn't anything secret. It
01:27:05
was pretty obvious rotation plan. Um
01:27:07
they would have already known that we
01:27:09
were unarmed because we had been unarmed
01:27:11
for 50 years prior. Um, and so clearly
01:27:15
they meant business. So,
01:27:17
>> how many of you guys? Three.
01:27:19
>> Three versus 38.
01:27:21
>> 38. Yeah. Yeah.
01:27:23
>> That's an intimidating amount of people.
01:27:25
>> Yeah.
01:27:25
>> Yeah. You can't um wrestle your way to
01:27:27
that. You've got to
01:27:28
>> And that they were all armed.
01:27:29
>> They were all armed. Yeah. Heavily
01:27:32
armed.
01:27:32
>> Um they al also in the um the powerful
01:27:35
position of, you know, waking you guys
01:27:37
up and catching you while you're
01:27:38
sleeping. before, as you said before
01:27:40
about the foxes, you know, you're
01:27:41
confused and wondering what's going on.
01:27:43
It takes a while to process. Um, when do
01:27:46
they when do they start making the the
01:27:48
motions that you mentioned before about
01:27:49
making a bad video?
01:27:51
>> Well, so couple of minutes into the
01:27:53
whole kafuffle. So, I uh jumped in my
01:27:56
uniform. I moved to the front of the
01:27:57
building and by that stage the windows
01:27:59
were being smashed up. So, we were
01:28:01
already losing control largely because
01:28:02
we weren't engaging. So I started a
01:28:05
conversation um basically articulating
01:28:08
some really basic things that I already
01:28:09
knew like we are UN military observers.
01:28:11
We're here to help. We're not here to do
01:28:12
any harm. Da da da. Um and very early on
01:28:17
in this piece of discussion which became
01:28:19
a discussion luckily for us because we
01:28:21
could have been in a world of hurt if he
01:28:23
didn't. Um one of the team members
01:28:26
basically signaled that they were taking
01:28:28
us to make a bad video of us. Um, and
01:28:31
again I I keep saying this because this
01:28:33
is a very important part of the
01:28:35
narrative. This was not out of out of
01:28:37
sort, out of type. Um, because videos of
01:28:40
decapitation were one of those things
01:28:42
that did exchange between waring parties
01:28:44
to state commitment to what the mission
01:28:46
is.
01:28:47
>> I've I've seen one and I I'll never
01:28:49
sorry I'll never I'll Yeah, I'll never
01:28:51
be to um forget it.
01:28:52
>> Yeah.
01:28:53
>> Yeah.
01:28:54
>> It's a horrendous thing. It's it's just
01:28:56
it so the pieces of information or
01:28:59
intelligence we were gathering at the
01:29:01
time had ample amount of that stuff just
01:29:05
to just to help keep the tension and the
01:29:06
level of um
01:29:09
kind of you know anxiety proportionately
01:29:12
high. So really yeah blunt blunt
01:29:15
message.
01:29:16
So at at that moment, yeah, I mean, I'm
01:29:21
just trying to think if I was in that
01:29:22
position whether I'd faint or pee myself
01:29:25
or or or like what was what was going
01:29:28
through your mind at that point.
01:29:30
>> Well, you were in you were locked in,
01:29:32
right? You are in a in a you don't faint
01:29:35
when you're in the middle of a
01:29:36
discussion, right? Someone has off is
01:29:37
offering you a possibility. You know,
01:29:39
your job is to kind of think outside of
01:29:41
it a little bit. I'm not saying that
01:29:42
this was a uh some sort of sophisticated
01:29:44
approach we took at the time. The first
01:29:46
thing is that initially they basically
01:29:48
said to us that they extracting us
01:29:49
because someone else is coming to chop
01:29:50
our heads off. But that changed really
01:29:52
quickly because as we hesitated they
01:29:55
began to present more threat. Uh and at
01:29:57
one point someone pointed um you know
01:29:59
kind of an equivalent of bazooka to our
01:30:01
to our gate which was really stupid
01:30:03
because we are in a container building.
01:30:05
So you know you don't
01:30:07
>> necessary should chill out. you got to
01:30:10
do yourself harm, you know, like not the
01:30:11
face.
01:30:13
And seriously though, it's like okay, so
01:30:14
but clearly they're men business. And
01:30:16
so, uh, when you have this switch and
01:30:19
desire to control and and dominate, it
01:30:22
becomes quite clear that these are not
01:30:24
your buddies. Um, so the job to be done,
01:30:27
I think this is the beauty of moments
01:30:28
like that. I don't think you would have
01:30:30
fainted. I think most people would be
01:30:33
uh when they see this opportunity and
01:30:35
you already have a conversation going,
01:30:37
you want to find out a little bit more
01:30:39
or at least b. We tried to b for a
01:30:43
little bit. We offered what we had. It
01:30:44
wasn't it wasn't interesting to the
01:30:46
parties involved. And then we were off
01:30:48
and away. We were dragged into the
01:30:50
minefields that we thought were there to
01:30:51
protect us. Um yeah, so it was quite a
01:30:55
quite a quick switch from sleep to
01:30:59
action. H. So, so you you your marched
01:31:03
through the minefields. Do they know
01:31:04
where they're going?
01:31:06
>> Well, this is the map. Yeah. I don't
01:31:07
know if they they had a map. I mean,
01:31:09
there was a couple of inshallah moments
01:31:11
which is like, you know, if it goes, it
01:31:12
goes. Um, but they probably studied
01:31:15
them, you know, and this is the thing is
01:31:16
we would have these minefields, but
01:31:18
local shepherds would be hopping through
01:31:20
those on a daily. Um, now the thing is
01:31:23
is that again it's not particularly
01:31:25
planned approach either for the local
01:31:27
shepherds because m minds of this age
01:31:30
they shift they move with rain with snow
01:31:32
with all of that all of those conditions
01:31:34
that are changing they're not fixed in
01:31:35
the same place so they're extremely
01:31:37
dangerous for that reason it's an old
01:31:38
minefield that has been put there since
01:31:40
in the 60s I think so um we had to just
01:31:44
hop about
01:31:46
there's a moment where I signal to them
01:31:49
stupidly I said I didn't realize they
01:31:51
have that much English. Um, they hid it
01:31:53
from us for a hot second, you know. So,
01:31:56
we got to the minefields and were trying
01:31:58
to push us into into them. And I said,
01:31:59
"No, no, no. Don't go. No, go, no, go."
01:32:01
Boom, boom, boom. And one of them said,
01:32:03
"No." Boom, boom, boom. And started like
01:32:05
jumping through them. And then we had to
01:32:06
hop across, which by the way, can I just
01:32:09
share and hear up my mates's um
01:32:11
epicness? We were hopping through them
01:32:13
and Miko turned back at me because it
01:32:15
was at the end uh of the procession. Uh,
01:32:18
and he went, "Dude, we're doing it for
01:32:21
real." Cuz I had my apparently I don't
01:32:24
remember being unpretty in this
01:32:26
incident, but apparently I look like a
01:32:27
total muppet and I had my I had my teeth
01:32:30
clinched, which is actually when you
01:32:33
look back at that really dumb cuz
01:32:35
>> just bracing yourself for impact.
01:32:37
>> Like trying not to damage my teeth, you
01:32:39
know,
01:32:41
in the explosion. like what priorities,
01:32:44
you know, like you want to be a really
01:32:45
good-look
01:32:47
skull or something. Um, yeah. So, but
01:32:51
Miko turned around and said that to me.
01:32:52
We are doing it for real because we had
01:32:54
been training for weeks at that time,
01:32:56
but on this very day, we were doing
01:32:58
burpee competition between each other,
01:33:00
listening to a track by the prodigy with
01:33:02
that exact line. We walk through the
01:33:03
minefields and it's just like, yeah, I I
01:33:07
I really love military humor and
01:33:10
military camaraderie and what surviving
01:33:14
or moving through
01:33:16
difficult or seemingly difficult
01:33:18
challenges gives you, which is your
01:33:20
ability to recognize that you're not
01:33:21
that hard. It's not the end of the world
01:33:23
ever until it is. And you know, you
01:33:25
can't do much about the end point, so
01:33:26
might as well have fun along the way,
01:33:28
you know.
01:33:29
>> So good. Can can can training it like
01:33:31
properly or adequately prepare you for
01:33:34
that? I mean like in training you know
01:33:35
you're not going to be beheaded at the
01:33:37
end of it.
01:33:37
>> Yeah.
01:33:39
Yeah. But training is dangerous also,
01:33:42
right? So you know you hopefully not
01:33:43
going to be beheaded, at least not by
01:33:44
accident. But the the the piece behind
01:33:46
it is that you learn that you cannot
01:33:49
fully control another person's will. But
01:33:52
you certainly have multiple different
01:33:54
choices along the way. Multi- choice
01:33:56
questions everywhere in situations like
01:33:58
that, you know. and they present
01:34:00
themselves um you know we imagine that
01:34:02
there is too many pressure points and
01:34:03
the brain cannot absorb them but
01:34:05
actually in in compressed environment
01:34:08
you should also anticipate that you
01:34:10
supposed enemy is under pressure as well
01:34:12
it's actually very difficult task to get
01:34:14
someone to follow your will even if you
01:34:16
have many guns
01:34:17
>> do you know what I mean there's a whole
01:34:18
heap of unpredictable elements that they
01:34:20
also have to manage your job is to
01:34:22
simplify and to come closer to a point
01:34:25
where you can maybe
01:34:27
>> negotiate chat discuss. You know, I
01:34:30
think we underestimate the minute we
01:34:32
catch ourselves as subordinate to
01:34:34
somebody else, we make some really dumb
01:34:35
decisions. If you appreciate that
01:34:37
everyone has some level of challenge and
01:34:39
a wicked amount of options running to
01:34:41
their mind and it's your job to simplify
01:34:43
that and focus on the pivot points, it
01:34:46
becomes easier. You know,
01:34:48
>> Jamie and I test this hypothesis in our
01:34:50
daily, you know, family arguments all
01:34:52
the time.
01:34:53
>> Daily.
01:34:54
>> No joking. I'm joking. I just wanted to
01:34:56
bring light to the mix. So the so the um
01:34:59
the captors the captors they um they
01:35:01
they they march you to where you're
01:35:03
going which is what like a building how
01:35:04
far away like a couple of kilometers.
01:35:06
>> Yeah. Just down the hill from us there's
01:35:08
a beautiful village uh jam it's called a
01:35:11
beautiful beautiful village that was
01:35:12
actually populated for hundreds of years
01:35:14
by um particular kind of cultural nuance
01:35:18
of Assyrians. So really colorful really
01:35:20
bright abandoned for quite some time um
01:35:23
and abandoned in a hurry which is a
01:35:25
thing I will never forget. So, that was
01:35:26
probably one of the most frightening
01:35:28
things I've ever experienced. Less the
01:35:29
hostage situation and more the
01:35:31
impression of walking being walked into
01:35:34
a building uh that in in context like
01:35:37
this, I could understand it as as
01:35:39
someone who's grown up in old worlds,
01:35:40
right? You have countless treasures. The
01:35:43
home itself looked like it was
01:35:45
multigenerational just by virtue of what
01:35:47
you witness. They had little kids shoes
01:35:49
at the front. I'll never forget. And it
01:35:50
was still lined up in a way in a way
01:35:53
oddly but covered in a whole heap of
01:35:55
dust because the place had been pummeled
01:35:58
by um artillery rounds. You know this
01:36:01
area this village is or town is
01:36:04
extremely close to the area of
01:36:05
separation between Israel and Syria. And
01:36:07
the area of separation is where military
01:36:09
equipment and um personnel would be
01:36:12
smuggled through into Syria from Jordan
01:36:14
and from Lebanon. So that unfortunate
01:36:16
place was right on the crossroads of it.
01:36:19
And so it had huge amount of interest uh
01:36:22
in terms of fire thrown at it for for
01:36:25
ages. And inside of it, you have kind of
01:36:27
the kind of treasures that you don't
01:36:28
just pick up in that part of the world.
01:36:30
You don't go to Costco or whatever shop
01:36:32
we've got here. That new thing I'm not
01:36:34
going to mention. Don't even say it.
01:36:38
>> You know that thing,
01:36:41
you don't you don't you don't have fast
01:36:43
furniture. You don't have fast stuff.
01:36:44
You've got stuff that is passed on from
01:36:46
a generation to generation, all left
01:36:48
behind.
01:36:49
>> And then actually for the longest of
01:36:50
time, probably been seconds, but it
01:36:53
feels like forever, all I could think
01:36:54
about is are they there? Where are they?
01:36:57
Are the bodies there? Are they dead? Did
01:36:58
they make it out of this village alive?
01:36:59
Did we watch them be slaughtered and
01:37:01
didn't do anything? Like, did we miss?
01:37:03
What did we miss? What had happened?
01:37:05
Because you don't just up and go like
01:37:07
that, you know? You don't leave your
01:37:09
treasured possessions behind. That's
01:37:10
everything you've got,
01:37:12
>> you know? So anyway, that was that was
01:37:13
way harder to deal with. Um, also what
01:37:16
was way harder to deal with was the
01:37:18
realization that us trained military
01:37:20
personnel were sitting there. The the
01:37:23
place itself was still under attack as
01:37:25
in the town that we were held in. And
01:37:28
you know, you have the imminent threat
01:37:30
and you have another imminent threat
01:37:31
from a different source at the same
01:37:32
time. The imminent threat was gun gun
01:37:35
pointed at us. You know, we were kind of
01:37:36
squished in one corner unsure about
01:37:38
what's going to happen next. Um, but
01:37:41
also the area was under heavy shelling
01:37:43
at the same time and you're like, which
01:37:44
way am I going to
01:37:46
>> get squashed? Where will this go? But we
01:37:49
we were set next to a window on the
01:37:51
bottom floor. The window was barked.
01:37:54
Obviously, the family themselves were
01:37:56
trying to probably protect themselves
01:37:57
from intrusion before they abandoned the
01:37:59
area. But, uh, the building was being
01:38:02
bombarded.
01:38:04
Not the building itself, the village,
01:38:05
the town. And the three of us were the
01:38:08
only ones that were like ducking our
01:38:10
heads in and reacting to every one of
01:38:11
these hits, whereas everyone else was
01:38:14
just sitting there as if they were
01:38:15
listening to Sunday opera. It was just
01:38:17
weird, you know. So, you can imagine how
01:38:20
their bodies, their their whole beings,
01:38:21
their brains were
01:38:24
soaked in this stuff so frequently that
01:38:26
it was no longer
01:38:28
>> it's become normal.
01:38:28
>> It's normal. Yeah.
01:38:32
>> And are they are they quite kind to you?
01:38:34
Like do they do they give you any water
01:38:36
or anything or is it guns at you the
01:38:37
entire time?
01:38:38
>> We had we had both. We had guns at us uh
01:38:40
at the same time at the whole time but
01:38:42
uh we were also treated with kindness
01:38:45
relatively early on uh because we were
01:38:48
able to strike a conversation. Yeah.
01:38:50
>> Yeah. What does kindness kindness look
01:38:51
like in that environment?
01:38:52
>> I kindness looks like being allowed to
01:38:54
use the bathroom for example or being
01:38:57
given a glass of water.
01:38:59
>> I mean it doesn't seem like much but it
01:39:01
it is it is a lot. You know,
01:39:03
>> it's a human connection. I guess
01:39:04
>> it's a human connection. Yeah. It means
01:39:06
you you are allowed to be someone of
01:39:08
dignity, which you know, means the
01:39:11
world.
01:39:11
>> Kindness also look like um I should not
01:39:14
come across as being dis uh ungrateful
01:39:17
in saying it, but also being offered
01:39:18
cigarettes and they were disgusting
01:39:20
cigarettes cuz clearly they had some
01:39:22
embargos and they couldn't bring any
01:39:23
good stuff. But it was just the worst
01:39:26
thing in the world. And it's one of
01:39:27
those things like if you can earn
01:39:29
graces, so that's how the training goes.
01:39:31
If you earn graces early, it's an
01:39:33
indication that you have some hope. Like
01:39:35
if you were, you know, treated bluntly,
01:39:37
if you were asked for something like
01:39:39
that, then you're screwed and you have
01:39:41
to kind of work a little harder to earn
01:39:43
good graces.
01:39:44
>> Interesting. Yeah.
01:39:45
>> Were you a smoker?
01:39:47
>> Uh, not so much at the time, but that
01:39:49
you know that
01:39:50
>> they must have spotted you. Did you
01:39:52
start like coughing? They they would
01:39:54
have been like, "She's not even a
01:39:55
smoker."
01:39:56
>> No, you try not to be. You try not to
01:39:58
be. you handle it like a pro, you know.
01:40:01
>> So, so the whole time are you I mean in
01:40:05
in the moments of downtime like are you
01:40:06
are you thinking of of your parents or
01:40:08
are you thinking of Jamie or are you
01:40:10
just like trying to figure out who's who
01:40:13
and what their role is?
01:40:14
>> Well, that was the most important part
01:40:15
is actually to here is the thing I
01:40:17
really appreciate about our team. Every
01:40:19
one of us uh clearly was aware that what
01:40:22
was offered or was suggested was a
01:40:24
possibility but the primary interest we
01:40:27
had was really understanding our terrain
01:40:28
and this is going to sound weird but you
01:40:31
know if you've studied I don't know
01:40:32
volcanoes or some sort of old piece of
01:40:35
history and suddenly you walk right into
01:40:37
it. We had studied this environment,
01:40:38
this pattern of operation for a very
01:40:40
very long time and it was the first
01:40:42
opportunity we had to look at it face to
01:40:44
face to be the observed in the positions
01:40:48
that we had observed before. So
01:40:49
gathering insights was the biggest and
01:40:51
most important thing like you entertain
01:40:53
yourself with stuff like which is part
01:40:55
of training too.
01:40:56
>> Uh where does the impact come from? Who
01:40:58
moves where who's the boss of who? What
01:41:00
pattern of engagement do they have? What
01:41:02
escalation emerges based on different
01:41:03
trigger points? Um what weapons do they
01:41:06
hold? How do they hold them? What level
01:41:08
of readiness do they have? There were
01:41:10
moments, for example, where we had
01:41:11
couple of what looked like 13, 14 year
01:41:13
olds as our guard, young kids. And I was
01:41:17
deeply concerned because they clearly
01:41:19
didn't know how to hold their weapons.
01:41:21
And I had this distinct fear that they
01:41:23
will shoot themselves in the foot will
01:41:24
be blamed for it and you know it will be
01:41:26
horrible for all parties involved. But
01:41:29
then you also had others who were
01:41:30
clearly quite experienced and knew
01:41:31
precisely what they were doing. And just
01:41:33
that justosition alone can tell you a
01:41:35
lot about what a a team is made of, you
01:41:38
know.
01:41:38
>> Um, so it's just you kind of try to
01:41:41
build a cohesive picture of what it is
01:41:42
that you're dealing with.
01:41:43
>> Largely for entertainment if you think
01:41:45
that it's
01:41:46
>> entertainment. You you and I have got
01:41:48
very different views of
01:41:50
>> what are you going to do? What are you
01:41:52
going to do? You can't just say I'm just
01:41:53
going to take a little nap here. Thanks.
01:41:54
You know.
01:41:55
>> Yeah.
01:41:56
>> Were you um were you at peace with death
01:41:58
that day?
01:41:59
>> I didn't I didn't contemplate that I had
01:42:01
to be.
01:42:02
>> Right. I think if you I think you kind
01:42:03
of have to you I don't think you can
01:42:05
really be at peace with death at any
01:42:07
point can you I think you can imagine
01:42:09
that you might be
01:42:11
>> but it can change that level of peace
01:42:14
with death based on what is what is
01:42:17
happening around you um what's happening
01:42:18
in your day you know who's who's in
01:42:20
front of you in that moment I suspect
01:42:23
I think I was at peace with it
01:42:25
intellectually before I stepped into
01:42:27
this deployment and any other deployment
01:42:29
you have to consider it but I wasn't
01:42:31
making it be a it's it's the wrong time
01:42:34
to be having this discussion with
01:42:35
yourself.
01:42:36
>> You know, you can't show up and not
01:42:38
expect that this is a possible outcome.
01:42:41
>> Yeah. Did the time go fast or slow?
01:42:44
>> Both.
01:42:45
>> Both. Can you believe it? Both. Like
01:42:47
it's just weird. It is it times there
01:42:50
are times where it feels extremely fast
01:42:52
to the point where there are details. I
01:42:54
only remember when I read our
01:42:55
intelligence briefs and I can't imagine
01:42:58
how we've packed that much in. But then
01:43:01
there are times where it felt like
01:43:03
moments took forever and those are the
01:43:05
moments of uncertainty and you don't
01:43:07
know what lever to pull and if you do it
01:43:09
whether it's going to lead to worse or
01:43:10
better consequences and that's the nasty
01:43:12
chess game when you have this huge
01:43:13
suspense. I think it's a Yeah, it's a
01:43:17
cluster.
01:43:18
>> Yeah. Well, that's someone else's
01:43:19
decision, isn't it?
01:43:20
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:43:21
>> I suppose you can just strategically do
01:43:22
the best you can at every step of the
01:43:24
every step of the way. How long was it
01:43:26
in total? Like seven hours?
01:43:27
>> Yeah. Overnight. It's a It's a
01:43:29
sleepover.
01:43:30
>> It's a That's a long time.
01:43:32
>> That's a long time. It could have been
01:43:33
much longer. It could have been forever
01:43:35
time.
01:43:36
>> Yeah.
01:43:36
>> So, I think that was the biggest win we
01:43:38
had is that it wasn't longer.
01:43:41
>> When did it become clear that or or was
01:43:44
there a moment where you thought you're
01:43:45
safe or you're going to you're going to
01:43:47
get out of this?
01:43:48
>> Do you know what's really really
01:43:49
horrible about I think maybe the
01:43:51
nastiest part of the situation is
01:43:53
actually appreciating that you aren't
01:43:54
safe until there isn't a threat present
01:43:57
in front of you. And so we negotiated
01:44:00
our release we thought and then we
01:44:02
started moving back to where we started
01:44:04
but we were escorted by the group the
01:44:06
whole way through. And the condition of
01:44:07
our release is that we had secured
01:44:08
audience with the general the UN general
01:44:10
that was um head of mission at the time.
01:44:13
It was a grumpy um individual a two star
01:44:16
general who probably couldn't be
01:44:17
bothered being there like summoned up
01:44:19
early in the morning for a coffee with
01:44:20
bunch of rebels.
01:44:21
So they were stationed there. At one
01:44:24
point as we were walking up the hill we
01:44:26
came down on the night before, we could
01:44:28
see a whole heap of UN vehicles.
01:44:30
Everyone was there waiting to, you know,
01:44:32
scoop us back up. Um but the because the
01:44:37
the guard group was moving with us and
01:44:39
began to peel off gradually. This meant
01:44:42
could have meant both, you know, safety
01:44:45
is imminent, but it could have also
01:44:46
meant staging for much worse. And there
01:44:48
was a point right at the end and I
01:44:50
remember just going I actually said it
01:44:52
out loud. There's a number of things I
01:44:53
say out loud, right? Sleep deprivation.
01:44:55
Mik was laughing his head off at me
01:44:56
because apparently I said that's enough
01:44:58
now. That's enough to myself like a like
01:45:00
a pro, you know. And what I meant by
01:45:02
that I think I think in my head I was
01:45:05
actually talking about seeking extreme
01:45:07
challenges that I genuinely meant it. I
01:45:09
remember saying it and I thinking I was
01:45:11
thinking to myself, I've done enough
01:45:12
now. I've ticked that box. I'm good now
01:45:14
to become a retired old lady. Um but but
01:45:19
and when we we got just before we got
01:45:22
into our observation post, the last man
01:45:24
who was the leader of the group uh
01:45:26
pulled out a camera and said, "I'm just
01:45:27
going to ask you a few questions on
01:45:29
camera." Not in those exact words. Uh
01:45:32
and I thought, you know, I can't believe
01:45:34
we went through all this and it deceived
01:45:36
us into thinking that we're walking back
01:45:37
to safety cuz what do you imagine? What
01:45:40
I imagined there for a second was that's
01:45:42
it. They're going to do that final act
01:45:43
in front of all eyes. All eyes are on us
01:45:46
right now. They've got the camera and
01:45:48
they're going to chop our heads off in
01:45:52
front of the UN. They've summoned the
01:45:54
highest possible authority. This was the
01:45:56
group that they had the biggest
01:45:57
disgruntlement with. So, you know, but
01:46:00
of course it didn't happen. Now, you can
01:46:02
you can roll with that moment of fear
01:46:05
and it was a search. It was a sudden
01:46:06
surge because it was probable if they
01:46:09
meant to do what they intended to do at
01:46:11
the beginning. Um, but no, they were
01:46:14
actually, yeah, they stuck to the word.
01:46:18
>> And once you're finally safe, um, yeah,
01:46:21
what happens first? Are you are you
01:46:22
laughing? Are you crying? Are you
01:46:24
shaking?
01:46:25
You know, when when when it's when the
01:46:27
ordeal is finally over.
01:46:28
>> It took us a long time to actually have
01:46:30
any reaction because we were bracing for
01:46:32
the initial stage. In typical fashion,
01:46:35
what kind of rightfully happens is that
01:46:36
you get um sent off. We got sent off to
01:46:38
the medical center. We got examined. We
01:46:42
uh were queried all sorts of people were
01:46:44
asking us questions to better understand
01:46:45
the terrain. And then it was not until
01:46:48
that night that we could sit back. We
01:46:51
requested to be back in our observation
01:46:52
post and make peace with what had
01:46:54
happened. Um we actually cleaned our
01:46:57
observation post ourselves. The
01:46:58
difference was that we weren't there by
01:47:00
ourselves. We now had security guards
01:47:02
all over us and security guards because
01:47:04
we we thought it's really important to
01:47:06
close the loop as you would with any
01:47:08
critical incident. just don't let the
01:47:11
mind wander, understand it, complete the
01:47:13
picture, and then move on. Um, but then
01:47:16
we all had this extreme level of energy,
01:47:19
which was utterly weird cuz we hadn't
01:47:21
slept for like several days by that
01:47:22
stage,
01:47:23
>> and we were still buzzing and sharing
01:47:25
ideas and laughing our heads off and
01:47:27
yeah, so laughing was the thing. That
01:47:29
was basically it. We were making fun of
01:47:31
one another and ridiculing each other on
01:47:33
our ridiculous reactions,
01:47:35
>> but they're actually genuinely funny. We
01:47:37
weren't being we weren't being strange
01:47:38
individuals. We genuinely had a whole
01:47:40
heap of funny reactions, which is, you
01:47:43
know,
01:47:44
>> it's interesting, isn't it? You never
01:47:45
know how you're going to react. Yeah.
01:47:46
>> Unless you're in that situation, which
01:47:48
thankfully most of us will never find
01:47:50
ourselves in. When when when do you tell
01:47:52
your parents?
01:47:54
>> I think they had been informed that we
01:47:57
were taken. We were taken. Uh which is I
01:47:59
don't know if it's a good idea, right?
01:48:01
Um so they already knew that we had been
01:48:03
taken. Uh, sorry, I shouldn't be
01:48:06
commenting on on who announces what
01:48:07
when, but they already knew that we were
01:48:09
safe. So, I didn't speak to my parents
01:48:11
up until much later that night because
01:48:12
there were more important things to do.
01:48:14
They were they knew that we were, you
01:48:16
know, we had a bit of an adventure. Um,
01:48:18
we will return back. And the most
01:48:20
important thing is kind of try to
01:48:22
minimize so that they don't worry about
01:48:24
things that you know are past or could
01:48:28
have happened but didn't happen. You
01:48:30
know how people do that and then
01:48:31
hypotheticals and then they kind of try
01:48:33
to infuse the situation with their own
01:48:34
fears and worries and
01:48:36
>> so yeah it was important to not do that
01:48:39
until the picture is clear and shared.
01:48:41
>> So if anything you downplay to protect
01:48:44
other people.
01:48:44
>> Yeah of course.
01:48:45
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:48:46
>> Why um why didn't you just jump on why
01:48:49
did you stay? Why didn't you jump on the
01:48:50
next plane home?
01:48:52
>> Because there's a really important job
01:48:53
to be done. You are you have a privilege
01:48:55
of intimate observation of intimate
01:48:57
understanding of a context. you know,
01:48:59
it's just this is a known threat in the
01:49:01
area. You still are moving about like an
01:49:04
absolute princess in my case, you know,
01:49:06
in a UN armored vehicle when everyone
01:49:07
else really needs attention and the
01:49:09
stories that you observe needed to be
01:49:11
reported. The second layer to that is
01:49:13
that as the threat was increasing in the
01:49:15
area, a number of nationalities that
01:49:17
previously were part of our contingent
01:49:18
were being withdrawn by their own
01:49:20
countries and we begged them and begged
01:49:22
and pleaded with New Zealand Defense
01:49:24
Force to keep us because it mattered to
01:49:26
us like this is important. You don't you
01:49:28
don't if you when you seize observation
01:49:31
on on areas like this, there are moments
01:49:33
of history that perish. You quickly
01:49:35
realize that you can't make fundamental
01:49:37
change in people's lives. Not in this
01:49:38
current generation at least. Maybe one
01:49:40
or two, maybe a handful a day. But
01:49:43
pieces of history wasted in that way
01:49:45
because no one objectively observes and
01:49:48
reports on them is one of the biggest
01:49:50
atrocities because it perpetuates a
01:49:51
narrative for life that neglects an
01:49:54
entire population, an entire segment of
01:49:56
of the world. So that that it didn't
01:49:59
even it didn't even cross my mind
01:50:01
>> that you should be doing that
01:50:03
>> again. This is just a like a Yeah. Do do
01:50:05
you need to pause for a drink or are you
01:50:07
okay?
01:50:07
>> No, I'm I'm good. I'm good.
01:50:09
>> Um you can't still be going on that
01:50:10
miniature coffee.
01:50:12
I am. Watch me. I'm savoring it. It's
01:50:16
like a toddler on piece, right? You
01:50:17
spent like 3 hours licking it.
01:50:19
>> Do another one. I can get the gang to
01:50:20
bring in another one if you want. That's
01:50:21
okay.
01:50:22
>> Um yeah, I mean it's a hypothetical, but
01:50:24
you you weren't a mom then. Um you
01:50:26
became a mom shortly after if you were
01:50:28
in that situation as a mom? Like would
01:50:30
you have reacted any differently? I mean
01:50:32
everything worked out.
01:50:33
>> It seems like textbook everything worked
01:50:35
out fine. But would it have been
01:50:37
different for you being there had you
01:50:38
been a mom?
01:50:39
>> I mean I think I don't know. I don't
01:50:41
know. I can't I can't I can't imagine
01:50:43
that.
01:50:44
>> Yeah.
01:50:44
>> Um when I was there, I was a wife and
01:50:46
and Jamie was on the other side of the
01:50:48
fence. He was in Israel. I did actually
01:50:50
one of the worries that I did have and
01:50:51
it sounds funny but we do have obviously
01:50:54
kind of um our relationship is amazing
01:50:56
and has a lot of humor infused in it but
01:50:59
I genuinely did worry rightfully whether
01:51:01
he's going to judge my performance to be
01:51:06
and and funny enough I have it on you
01:51:10
know the authority of my local commander
01:51:12
that when Jamie was informed that we
01:51:14
were held hostage and then released
01:51:16
because by the time when they informed
01:51:17
him we were we were we' already would
01:51:19
talk their way out of it in the middle
01:51:21
of the night. He said, "Did you follow
01:51:23
drill?" That was the first thing he
01:51:25
said.
01:51:27
And the guy who is from Slovenia, the
01:51:29
colonel who's from Slovenian colonel
01:51:31
loved the man. Uh he was actually
01:51:33
visiting New Zealand in our house. He
01:51:35
stayed with us uh several months ago. He
01:51:38
couldn't understand the drill Jamie was
01:51:40
talking about. He's like, "What kind of
01:51:41
man is that?" They didn't Jamie was
01:51:43
there on a on a on a on leave. No one
01:51:45
really knew what his background was. But
01:51:47
um yeah, so I was I was obsessing over
01:51:49
that. I don't know as a mom.
01:51:52
>> Yeah. I don't know. You never know. I
01:51:54
don't think.
01:51:54
>> Yeah. Did you I I suspect as a mom maybe
01:51:56
you wouldn't even put yourself in that
01:51:57
situation where that could happen, but
01:51:59
who knows? Did Did you have any um PTSD
01:52:02
or nightmares after that?
01:52:04
>> I don't think so. I don't think so. I
01:52:06
did have memories of experiences of my
01:52:09
my colleagues. I don't know. as a as a
01:52:12
psychologist I can confidently say so
01:52:14
far I haven't had any symptomatology to
01:52:16
suggest
01:52:17
>> trauma but because we ended up with such
01:52:20
an epic outcome and then several months
01:52:23
later a professor at uh Watu University
01:52:26
that I started my PhD with asked was it
01:52:29
curiosity that helped you it became an
01:52:31
intellectual thing so I actually had an
01:52:33
epic vehicle to unpack the whole
01:52:35
experience study it discovered that
01:52:37
there are gazillions of people who deal
01:52:39
with much worse and here is how they
01:52:42
manage it and we so happen to
01:52:43
accidentally stumble upon the same
01:52:45
principles. It was I'm not saying the
01:52:47
experience was exciting but reflecting
01:52:49
on it was because you're like poof I
01:52:52
can't believe our brains are wired so
01:52:54
well that if we get out of their ways
01:52:55
they help you solve stuff.
01:52:57
>> So that to me became like epic high
01:52:59
five. Thanks for giving me this
01:53:01
opportunity. Like if you're a geek
01:53:03
>> and you get like there's nothing better.
01:53:05
I love my data. I love my science. I
01:53:07
love the field I practice in. Every
01:53:09
field of psychology spins my world. But
01:53:11
then to be privileged enough to be
01:53:13
thrown in the mix like in the muddy
01:53:15
stuff of life and go, this theory proves
01:53:18
itself. Like that's the best. So,
01:53:24
I mean, you're you're so intriguing. Um,
01:53:26
it'd be great if we could bottle up what
01:53:28
you've got and share it with people. I
01:53:30
I've got friends that have had had their
01:53:31
houses burgled before and uh there's
01:53:34
there's been occasions where they've
01:53:35
been in it, but most of the occasions
01:53:37
they've been at work or whatever and
01:53:38
they they find the invasion of their
01:53:40
personal space so much that they have to
01:53:42
sell the house and move out.
01:53:43
>> Sure.
01:53:44
>> So, I'm I'm I'm just intrigued as to as
01:53:46
to how a human being can go through this
01:53:48
and experience it and just it's sort of
01:53:50
like
01:53:52
>> water off a duck's back for you in a
01:53:53
way.
01:53:54
>> Well, no, it's it's it's um better than
01:53:56
that. It's it's grow from it. It's learn
01:53:59
from it, gift from it,
01:54:00
>> like use. And I'm not saying that this
01:54:02
is necessarily like a uh daily purpose
01:54:05
of life kind of thing that I adhere to
01:54:07
like, you know, it's not. But in this
01:54:09
instance, you have a choice of kind of
01:54:12
brushing it off.
01:54:13
>> You have a choice of potentially being
01:54:15
impacted by not solving for some of the
01:54:18
open spaces or dilemmas or fears that
01:54:20
have emerged and you you haven't
01:54:21
attended to effectively. And there's an
01:54:23
even better choice than all of those
01:54:25
which is just go nuts on understanding
01:54:26
it and see if this can in some way be
01:54:29
useful like being in a position that we
01:54:31
were in automatically or in the state
01:54:33
where every experience you have is
01:54:34
supposed to serve the rest of the team
01:54:36
for the betterment. You don't like it
01:54:38
was our job to collect data and
01:54:40
information to protect the rest of our
01:54:42
team the whole way through. So you
01:54:43
conditioned in this like let me study
01:54:45
this thing. How can I pick this up and
01:54:47
share it? In fact, when we came out of
01:54:50
this experience, I got given um the
01:54:53
blessing from the UN to do uh an all
01:54:56
mission development of resilience
01:54:58
capabilities. So, we started this thing
01:54:59
called the Anmore resilience project and
01:55:02
we got shipped across for a quick study
01:55:04
to the Netherlands um to share our
01:55:07
experiences and then I had this epic
01:55:09
dude called Dr. Hani Murat who was who
01:55:12
was assigned to the mission and I got to
01:55:15
study every one of our military
01:55:16
observers record their stories so that
01:55:19
they can share with others what it is
01:55:21
that it feels like to be in the face of
01:55:23
a cute we never had that before.
01:55:25
>> Yeah.
01:55:25
>> I mean so like it's a whole lot better
01:55:27
than just doing this right you can go
01:55:28
okay an opportunity that showed us a
01:55:30
thing or two we didn't know before
01:55:32
>> let's go crazy on seeing what it could
01:55:34
look like how it can serve us all. And
01:55:36
it's amazing. We had so many parties
01:55:38
around that data gathering thing. It's
01:55:40
good to be a geek, you know? I just
01:55:43
don't see what else you do. Why Why
01:55:44
would you miss the opportunity?
01:55:46
>> Well, it's inspiring stuff. It's like
01:55:48
what we talked about before with your
01:55:49
book, The Resilience Toolkit. It's like
01:55:51
you you you are a living example of like
01:55:53
bouncing forward as you talk about in
01:55:55
the book.
01:55:56
>> Yeah.
01:55:56
>> Yeah. How how um how do you reflect on
01:55:59
the rebels that were involved with this
01:56:01
now? How do you how do you reflect on
01:56:02
them? Is it like it um indifference,
01:56:05
disdain? Is there a level of compassion?
01:56:07
>> I I I have no uh indifference or disdain
01:56:10
because and again it's it's you you
01:56:14
cannot be in this environment and be
01:56:15
ignorant to the human pressures and
01:56:17
drivers like there's no universe in
01:56:19
which I could feel anything other than
01:56:21
understanding as much as I don't
01:56:23
appreciate the vehicle they wanted to
01:56:24
choose to to do what they tried to do.
01:56:27
um the the pressures they were under and
01:56:30
the severity of experiences they have
01:56:32
had under the watchful eye of every
01:56:35
international community is
01:56:36
incomprehensible.
01:56:38
>> I don't understand how we can expect
01:56:39
people to conduct themselves in acute
01:56:42
pain with a level of self-control that
01:56:44
is disproportionate to the discomfort.
01:56:46
So I yeah I can't hold judgment. I can
01:56:48
hold curiosity and I can hold compassion
01:56:51
and I can hold um a lifelong desire to
01:56:56
want to somehow support the human that
01:56:59
sits inside the story. Not so much the
01:57:01
ways in which they choose to communicate
01:57:03
disdain or dislike of conditions, but
01:57:06
certainly the human it humbles you like
01:57:08
nobody's business that stuff,
01:57:10
>> you know.
01:57:11
>> How how often do you think about it now?
01:57:12
Is it just when you're forced to talk
01:57:14
about it like in podcasts or keynote
01:57:16
speeches or like when you you had a big
01:57:18
drive in to the studio this morning
01:57:20
>> like do you do you ever just have
01:57:22
flashes or moments where you're thinking
01:57:24
about it?
01:57:24
>> No.
01:57:24
>> No.
01:57:25
>> No. But I do think of the region often
01:57:26
because we sponsor a school for girls in
01:57:28
the region.
01:57:29
>> Um and that has helped us actually
01:57:31
unlock much of our capabilities beyond
01:57:33
that and actually start contributing.
01:57:35
You know how we all we all have all
01:57:37
these ideas about how we can make the
01:57:38
world a better place. Meanwhile, we
01:57:40
missed the boat completely because
01:57:42
there's like thousands of little offers
01:57:44
you get given every day, but you miss
01:57:46
them.
01:57:47
>> So, it's front of mind for me because we
01:57:49
have this epic women that we support in
01:57:51
the area.
01:57:52
>> Um, but not in the way that that
01:57:54
situation is just an opening. It's an
01:57:56
opening to,
01:57:58
>> you know, worldview that we wouldn't
01:57:59
have had otherwise.
01:58:01
>> And you got a couple of um awards, a
01:58:04
very um awarded family. Um, yeah. Jamie,
01:58:08
your husband, what's he got? He's got
01:58:09
the one just below the Victoria Cross,
01:58:11
right?
01:58:12
>> Yeah.
01:58:12
>> What What's the one that he's got?
01:58:13
>> I knew you going to ask me. I have no
01:58:14
idea.
01:58:17
>> It's huge. It's huge. What is it? We
01:58:18
should really think about it. It's the
01:58:20
one below Victoria Cross.
01:58:21
>> Okay. After this, we're going to have to
01:58:23
Google. Do foxes do foxes bark?
01:58:26
>> What is Jamie has as a medal?
01:58:28
>> But you got um the New Zealand Defense
01:58:30
Force uh
01:58:32
>> what is it? Merritorious Service Medal
01:58:35
and the United Nations com compendium.
01:58:38
Commenation.
01:58:38
>> Commenation.
01:58:39
>> Commenation. Yeah.
01:58:40
>> Yeah. What do they mean now?
01:58:43
>> So the uh meritorious service medal was
01:58:46
the ingro New Zealand defense force
01:58:48
service medal. It hadn't been issued out
01:58:50
to people for like I don't know 20 30
01:58:52
years or something like that. So they
01:58:53
unlocked it. Um and and and I always
01:58:57
laugh this is you should probably you'd
01:58:59
know that this is a healthy coping
01:59:00
response and also a normal part of our
01:59:02
fabric humanity, right? But both of
01:59:05
these, so the the UN accommodation was
01:59:08
given to me for negotiating um critical
01:59:10
incidences in the in the Middle East or
01:59:13
in the region that we were posted in
01:59:14
because that one was the one that was um
01:59:16
most visible. Um there were there were
01:59:19
many others prior and after that, but um
01:59:22
the that that was the commenation for
01:59:25
good conduct in extreme situations and
01:59:27
leadership. Uh but the meritorious
01:59:30
service medal uh was people were
01:59:33
interviewed from the mission area before
01:59:35
behind behind my back unbeknown to me.
01:59:38
Um and my team was saying that they're
01:59:40
about to give me a really important
01:59:42
medal and it's the medal for talking too
01:59:44
much
01:59:47
cuz yeah know like I believe it. I
01:59:50
believe it, you know, cuz they basically
01:59:53
said that they just wouldn't shut up and
01:59:55
constantly was asking but why and like
01:59:58
what what is your actual motivation
01:59:59
behind that? And in what way could we
02:00:01
make it? And so the rebels apparently
02:00:03
were like bought out of the brains from
02:00:05
>> Let it go. Let it go.
02:00:08
>> Were you really?
02:00:09
>> Oh yeah.
02:00:10
>> Yeah. You were talking the whole way
02:00:11
through it.
02:00:11
>> It was genuinely interested. Well, not I
02:00:14
don't think it felt disproportionate to
02:00:16
my general level of curiosity, but
02:00:18
>> Yeah. Do what what do you think you were
02:00:20
doing? Was it were you trying to charm
02:00:22
them? Were you trying to like win them
02:00:24
over so they liked you or what was it?
02:00:26
>> No, I genuinely wanted to understand I
02:00:28
mean because here is the here is the
02:00:30
reality we all knew is that if they did
02:00:32
what they said they will do, they'll all
02:00:34
get blasted out of life. They'll all get
02:00:36
obliterated, right? And so they were
02:00:38
giving an an ample opportunity for
02:00:40
retaliation that everyone would suffer.
02:00:42
That'd be the reason why they'd violate
02:00:44
the peace agreement between Israel and
02:00:45
Syria. Israel already knew where we were
02:00:47
because they had an observation post
02:00:49
placed two kilometers away from where we
02:00:51
were observing us observing the peace on
02:00:54
Israel and Syria because we weren't
02:00:55
trusted. So our entire ordeal, the
02:00:58
reason why we know there were 38 of them
02:01:00
is because Israel was filming that but
02:01:03
they couldn't communicate with us. Was
02:01:04
just weird. Mhm.
02:01:06
>> So if they did what they said they'd do,
02:01:08
they'd cause immense pain to not just
02:01:12
themselves but everyone they pretend or
02:01:14
>> purport to have supported. uh so I
02:01:17
genuinely wanted to understand what are
02:01:19
they trying to achieve and there's a
02:01:21
there's a gnarly piece inside of it
02:01:22
which is coming to a point where we
02:01:25
wanted to acknowledge not for any other
02:01:27
reason but because we felt it for so
02:01:28
long that the situation that triggered
02:01:32
this patternness of behavior in them the
02:01:34
endless human suffering um it was
02:01:36
something we ourselves didn't tolerate
02:01:39
the word impotent was used and we were
02:01:41
like we agree
02:01:42
>> because we felt it we felt the burden of
02:01:43
it like you can't hide that stuff
02:01:45
>> you you
02:01:47
Um, yeah. By the way, gallantry star, no
02:01:50
one should be able to forget that. Oh my
02:01:51
lord. New Zealand gallantry star Jamie
02:01:53
Panel.
02:01:54
>> Rockstar from way back when. Yeah.
02:01:57
>> Yeah. Oh, you both are. You're a couple
02:01:58
of couple of rock stars. Where where are
02:02:01
they are they are they something you
02:02:02
reflect on much these accolades or are
02:02:04
they hidden in a drawer somewhere?
02:02:06
>> No. I mean, you have to accept them on
02:02:08
behalf of others, right? But you don't
02:02:11
just sit there around the dinner table
02:02:12
and go, "Look at my model." No. No. We
02:02:15
don't do that. That Not framed. Not
02:02:16
framed like my New Zealand podcast
02:02:18
awards.
02:02:19
>> No. And and I don't know where. Yeah.
02:02:22
>> Really?
02:02:22
>> Well, I mean, should I Okay, but do you
02:02:24
have your podcast awards on the wall?
02:02:26
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:02:26
>> Okay. Well, that's that's appropriate.
02:02:28
>> Do you want some medals?
02:02:30
>> No. No. No. I don't.
02:02:31
>> Sorry.
02:02:32
>> Um,
02:02:33
thanks for sharing that in such um great
02:02:36
detail. Do you get like a like an
02:02:38
oversharing hangover like later on today
02:02:40
after after revisiting it in such vivid
02:02:42
color? like will the rest of the day
02:02:45
feel like a a drain for you or anything
02:02:47
or
02:02:48
>> occasionally? Occasionally I just worry
02:02:49
about this one situation being the the
02:02:51
thing. I mean I know nobody really knows
02:02:53
about the situation but if I was to
02:02:55
repeat it uh it feels indulgent to be
02:02:58
honest because I worry the only thing
02:02:59
that I get a hangover is it's my story
02:03:02
versus the opportunity for others to
02:03:03
learn. Um, and I'm not saying I have
02:03:06
something to teach, but I get exposed to
02:03:08
a whole heap of awesome insights and
02:03:12
philosophies of life that are far more
02:03:14
interesting than my hostage situation.
02:03:16
But I appreciate that it's rare, unique,
02:03:18
and that it has offered us great
02:03:19
lessons. So,
02:03:20
>> well, I'm I'm mainly curious about it
02:03:22
from the aspect that if you can go
02:03:24
through something like this and um and
02:03:26
um not bounce back, bounce forward,
02:03:28
>> um then any one of us with our little um
02:03:31
situations in life can do the same.
02:03:34
the human spirit's capable of much more
02:03:36
than what we think we are.
02:03:37
>> Absolutely.
02:03:38
>> Um I've got a card here about the
02:03:40
reality TV stuff, but it just seems it
02:03:42
just seems so irrelevant now. But you
02:03:44
have done a little bit of reality TV.
02:03:46
There was a TV show called Tracked
02:03:47
>> with Vinnie Jones in the South Island.
02:03:50
>> Um is that the one a previous podcast
02:03:52
guest Simone Mayer? Was she on that one?
02:03:54
>> Yes.
02:03:56
>> Coast to coast legend.
02:03:57
>> Yeah. She's legend in every way, not
02:03:59
just coast to coast. Yeah. I think she's
02:04:01
an exceptional woman. Yeah,
02:04:04
>> there's another example. Yeah, if anyone
02:04:05
hasn't listened to that podcast with
02:04:06
Simone Mayer, it's well worth um going
02:04:08
back and um digging it out. Um yeah,
02:04:11
she's a resilient woman.
02:04:12
>> My god,
02:04:13
>> she's been through so much.
02:04:14
>> Amazing.
02:04:15
>> And thrived.
02:04:16
>> Yeah.
02:04:17
>> Um and there was another TV show. Um Oh,
02:04:20
did you have much to do with Vinnie
02:04:21
Jones on that one?
02:04:21
>> Yeah.
02:04:22
>> Yeah, of course.
02:04:22
>> What was he like?
02:04:23
>> He's the dude. He's the dude. He's got
02:04:25
an
02:04:26
>> He's got an amazing sense of humor. Um
02:04:29
it's it's unfortunate. I think it took
02:04:31
him a hot second to get used to our
02:04:32
queueiness cuz we know how we don't we
02:04:34
don't particularly care for celebrity.
02:04:36
Um thankfully as much as some some other
02:04:38
environments he might be accustomed to
02:04:40
but he was cruising along I think
02:04:42
expecting us to be a bit a bit kind of
02:04:44
>> worship
02:04:45
>> didn't happen for a hot second so then
02:04:47
he adapted thankfully. Um yeah he was he
02:04:50
was the dude. He was yeah he was awesome
02:04:52
and loved his sense of humor. Love the
02:04:54
way he projected his voice. Um had to
02:04:57
kind of caution him to be a bit quieter
02:04:59
cuz it's New Zealand. We don't shout
02:05:00
around the streets in New Zealand too
02:05:02
much. Anyway, you know, people are
02:05:04
people. Yeah. He's just this every other
02:05:06
lad just needing a pie and a beer and
02:05:09
and a bit of a chat and then he's good.
02:05:11
>> Yeah.
02:05:12
>> Yeah. And there was another show. I
02:05:13
think this was last year or the year
02:05:14
before, SAS celebrity who deers wins UK.
02:05:18
>> Yeah.
02:05:19
>> Um and while researching this podcast, I
02:05:21
looked that up. I because they're UK
02:05:23
celebrities, I didn't really recognize
02:05:24
any names apart from Lani Daniels.
02:05:27
>> Lani Daniels, the New Zealand boxer.
02:05:28
God, what a woman and winning it all.
02:05:31
And so she was So the S TV show has been
02:05:34
going for like a thousand years. She's
02:05:35
like one of the original legendary ones.
02:05:38
>> Um I did it because I deeply believe
02:05:40
that psychology belongs everywhere. Um
02:05:42
so so that was amazing. But Lonnie, uh
02:05:45
amazing New Zealand incredible goddess
02:05:49
was pulled in last minute by the
02:05:51
production company here. um showed up,
02:05:54
smashed it, was shot herself. Like the
02:05:57
level of integrity and the humility that
02:05:59
she displayed the whole way through,
02:06:01
particularly amongst this loud,
02:06:03
obnoxious caffan that the set for stage
02:06:07
to be and people were selected to be
02:06:09
kind of, you know, pressuring each other
02:06:12
uh consciously or otherwise. Exceptional
02:06:14
woman and took it the whole way to the
02:06:17
end like a pro.
02:06:18
>> Mhm.
02:06:18
>> Oh my god. So proud. I I've not been in
02:06:21
tears too many times. She was one of
02:06:23
them. Yeah. Yeah. She was one of the two
02:06:24
girls that won.
02:06:25
>> Oh [ __ ]
02:06:25
>> We had two women that won the show.
02:06:28
>> One of them was a woman that had just
02:06:29
had a baby 6 months six weeks prior. How
02:06:32
crazy is that? So we had nothing. This
02:06:34
is not one of those um woman versus men
02:06:37
thing, but we did had top athletes, male
02:06:40
and female, and a mom and Lonnie won the
02:06:43
show. So yeah,
02:06:46
>> I I haven't seen that particular series,
02:06:47
but I've seen some of those series
02:06:49
before. And uh I I think I'd be out on
02:06:50
day one when when they make you like
02:06:53
jump backwards off the helicopter. I'd
02:06:55
be like, "Oh no, I'm good."
02:06:57
>> You would though for funsies for
02:06:59
>> funies. You and I have got very
02:07:01
different ideas of fun. Um
02:07:03
>> yeah. Is the one you were in the same
02:07:04
sort of thing as the Australian one
02:07:06
where you know the the contestants put
02:07:08
bags over their head and they get
02:07:09
marched into the staff area and
02:07:12
>> Yeah.
02:07:12
>> That's the one. Yeah. How did how did
02:07:14
you handle that sort of like [ __ ]
02:07:15
the [ __ ] back end of reality TV
02:07:17
where you know you've been in this real
02:07:19
military environment and then suddenly
02:07:20
you're in this sort of manufactured
02:07:22
environment
02:07:23
>> yeah I mean you kind of want to study it
02:07:25
that's the that's the piece right that
02:07:27
whole principle of never get stuck in
02:07:28
your suit means you have to get out of
02:07:30
your head a little bit and not be too
02:07:31
precious and my biggest worry about
02:07:33
anything TV was is it going to be some
02:07:35
sort of cheesy nonsense and how do I
02:07:37
integrate it with my own personal
02:07:39
integrity you know but the truth is
02:07:41
these things serve a powerful purpose.
02:07:43
They they demonstrate to the world
02:07:45
principles that most people don't get to
02:07:47
witness.
02:07:48
>> They see fellow humans, some of which
02:07:50
they recognize,
02:07:52
you know, overcome complex challenges.
02:07:54
Um, it may look like [ __ ] when you
02:07:56
know that there is a staged approach to
02:07:58
this and it's a controlled environment,
02:08:00
but it never fuels it on behalf of the
02:08:02
participant. Do you know what I mean?
02:08:03
It's it sucks. And all of these people
02:08:06
get yanked out of the comfort and the
02:08:07
comfort is very prescribed and
02:08:09
controlled by a whole heap of assistance
02:08:11
normally for some of them in particular,
02:08:13
not all. Um, so it's a hard yaka,
02:08:16
>> you know, and you see it in their
02:08:17
emotion, you know, it doesn't it feels
02:08:20
fake for a minute and then it stops
02:08:22
feeling fake because it's your life, you
02:08:23
know, you're living it.
02:08:24
>> So yeah, I had immense level of
02:08:26
compassion
02:08:27
>> for them.
02:08:28
>> Are you keen to look for more TV
02:08:30
opportunities?
02:08:31
>> Not so much. I didn't really go looking
02:08:32
for them, by the way. It just so
02:08:34
happened that the first one we did
02:08:35
tracked uh we basically packaged
02:08:37
ourselves as a team. We had uh three of
02:08:39
our team members on the show as well
02:08:41
four in with me uh and we decided that
02:08:43
it's all in or all out and it was a New
02:08:46
Zealand production. Um so we really
02:08:49
wanted to support that
02:08:50
>> and it was showcasing the skills of New
02:08:52
Zealand trackers. The SAS UK thing felt
02:08:55
a good challenge because they were
02:08:56
coming to my teroora and in the UKS they
02:09:00
have no psychologist. So was the pain in
02:09:02
the butt item. I was the unique unique
02:09:05
spin-off.
02:09:06
>> So yeah, I I took real pleasure being an
02:09:10
annoying element around the discussion
02:09:12
table.
02:09:13
>> So it was gold.
02:09:15
>> God, it's been a hell of a life, eh?
02:09:18
>> And it's only just begun.
02:09:19
>> Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask how old you are?
02:09:21
>> I'm 45.
02:09:21
>> 45.
02:09:22
>> Yeah.
02:09:22
>> Yeah. What do you What do you see the
02:09:23
future bringing? Like the next 5 years,
02:09:26
15 years?
02:09:26
>> Not sure.
02:09:27
>> No.
02:09:28
>> Yeah. But it's going to be a life of
02:09:30
challenge and service and excitement and
02:09:33
exploration.
02:09:34
>> Yeah.
02:09:35
>> I think the job to be done is to really
02:09:37
continue to focus on human potential and
02:09:38
keep on building capabilities in that
02:09:40
space for anyone that needs them. Yeah.
02:09:44
H
02:09:44
>> how's your mental health been through
02:09:46
your life with everything that you've
02:09:47
gone through and everything you've
02:09:48
experienced?
02:09:49
>> I I the only thing I perhaps suffer is
02:09:52
excessive amount of energy and
02:09:53
enthusiasm for life. So, if there's
02:09:55
something that has happened, I may have
02:09:57
missed it because there's too many
02:09:58
exciting things on the outside. Um, but
02:10:01
you know, I mean, it's it's if you if
02:10:03
you pay attention and leave life well,
02:10:05
it's not always a, you know, skipping
02:10:07
through daisy fields with butterflies.
02:10:09
It's,
02:10:09
>> you know, but you just have to know. You
02:10:11
have to mind where your mind goes. You
02:10:12
have to know when to stop and when to
02:10:14
replenish. So,
02:10:15
>> yeah. Of of everything you've achieved,
02:10:16
what makes you the proudest?
02:10:18
>> My son
02:10:19
>> and my husband make me the proudest.
02:10:21
Yeah. The amazing humans. And I don't
02:10:23
think I've achieved that. I've achieved
02:10:25
I've not achieved them if that makes
02:10:28
sense.
02:10:29
>> But having these um awesome characters
02:10:32
in my life and actually having a
02:10:35
ridiculously stable and enormously rich
02:10:38
pool of amazing friends. I have no idea
02:10:40
why they keep keep me, but I've got an
02:10:42
incredible group of friends and I'm the
02:10:44
most unpredictable uh satellite dish
02:10:47
ever. Like I pop in and out of their
02:10:49
lives all the time. So I'm insanely
02:10:51
proud of that. Why why do you why do you
02:10:53
say self-deprecating things like that?
02:10:54
Is that your Kiwi side or is that the
02:10:56
Bulgarian side saying things like I have
02:10:58
no no idea why they keep me?
02:10:59
>> I mean like you know normally if you
02:11:01
have amazing people and friends, they
02:11:03
kind of want you to be to consistently
02:11:05
display commitment and availability and
02:11:07
I'm I I I'd like to. It's in my mind but
02:11:10
I'm physically unable to do it because
02:11:12
I've just been all over the show.
02:11:13
>> You're busy. A certain chapter of your
02:11:14
life right now.
02:11:15
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:11:17
>> What would you say your best and worst
02:11:18
habits are?
02:11:21
probably the same thing.
02:11:22
>> Um the habit of thinking there's there's
02:11:25
more there's more in my tank is the best
02:11:28
thing and my worst thing. I don't
02:11:30
>> Wow.
02:11:31
>> Do you know what I mean?
02:11:32
>> It's funny. I you know you know Sir
02:11:34
Steve Hansen, you know the former I had
02:11:36
him on the podcast and he's he's got a
02:11:38
theory uh that someone's um greatest
02:11:40
strength is usually their greatest
02:11:41
weakness as well.
02:11:42
>> Ah okay.
02:11:43
>> Yeah. Which is exactly what you just
02:11:44
said.
02:11:44
>> Oh yeah. Okay. I feel validated then
02:11:47
because
02:11:47
>> Oh, don't feel he's a rugby coach. He's
02:11:49
not a psychologist.
02:11:50
>> Well, I mean, you know, we could swap.
02:11:53
>> You You probably just validated him if
02:11:55
anything.
02:11:55
>> Yeah.
02:11:56
>> Yeah.
02:11:57
>> When was the last time you cried?
02:11:59
>> Uh, let me think. I mean, I I love a
02:12:02
good cry.
02:12:04
>> I sometimes when is it? I don't see this
02:12:08
is the thing. I don't watch too much TV.
02:12:10
Um
02:12:12
typically it will be that kind of
02:12:13
situation you know
02:12:15
>> but it will be cry of compassion or
02:12:18
sometimes fury especially as I observe.
02:12:21
So my thing is anything that squashes
02:12:23
human potential or reduces the ability
02:12:24
of an individual to live life to the
02:12:27
fullness of the capabilities and if I
02:12:29
can't do anything about it infuriates me
02:12:30
and it makes me sad and so that's my
02:12:32
thing that's my trigger. If I see
02:12:34
anything that suppresses or reduces
02:12:37
any to be fair, animals, uh, humans,
02:12:40
anything that causes undue pain,
02:12:44
>> it's my trigger. And then I get
02:12:46
>> compassion.
02:12:46
>> Compassion.
02:12:47
>> Yeah.
02:12:48
>> What are you most afraid of?
02:12:51
>> Uh, life life of meaningless uh
02:12:55
meandering.
02:12:56
>> That's what I'm most afraid of. You know
02:12:58
what I mean? Because there's quite a lot
02:13:00
of good stuff to be done.
02:13:02
>> And not just to be done. And I'm not I'm
02:13:03
not saying that I'm in some way useful
02:13:05
in trying to do stuff, but to be done,
02:13:07
to be to be to be witnessed, to be
02:13:09
experienced.
02:13:10
>> That's my worst fear is
02:13:12
>> being lost in white noise.
02:13:14
>> Well, you're certainly not getting lost
02:13:16
in the white noise, are you? You're
02:13:17
getting [ __ ] done.
02:13:18
>> You better be right about that.
02:13:21
>> Otherwise, I'll be miserable.
02:13:22
>> Um, do you have any regrets?
02:13:25
>> Not yet.
02:13:27
>> Not yet.
02:13:29
>> Yeah.
02:13:29
>> Touchwood.
02:13:29
>> Touchwood.
02:13:30
>> Yeah.
02:13:30
>> Yeah. Um, and say say um Jamie and Alex
02:13:35
were in the next room.
02:13:36
>> What what three words would you like
02:13:38
them to say behind your back?
02:13:40
>> She rocks. Can it be two?
02:13:43
>> Yeah, you have to. Why use three when
02:13:46
you only need two?
02:13:46
>> Yeah.
02:13:47
>> Um, and are you proud of yourself?
02:13:49
>> No.
02:13:50
>> Come on.
02:13:51
>> Why? I don't mean it in a humble way. I
02:13:53
mean, I genuinely have always felt like
02:13:55
I've only just begun. I mean, what is
02:13:57
the right thing to do? I feel content
02:13:58
with myself. I really love myself. I
02:14:01
love that I uh I I get excited about
02:14:05
spending time in my company which is a
02:14:08
great sign I reckon because I'm
02:14:10
>> in your in your own company.
02:14:11
>> In my own company. Yeah. I'm I'm a
02:14:12
massive extrovert but I really love my
02:14:14
thoughts as well. So to this morning
02:14:16
when I was delayed with the beck
02:14:18
traveling the canoes um I just realized
02:14:21
this is probably why I wasn't losing my
02:14:23
mind being late that I um quite like my
02:14:26
thoughts and I was like oh how cool is
02:14:27
that
02:14:29
>> listening to music or just in silence.
02:14:31
>> Yeah definitely it was a lot of drum and
02:14:32
bass involved
02:14:35
that was matching my frustration. Yeah.
02:14:37
So, you mentioned um at the very
02:14:38
beginning of the podcast, you talked
02:14:39
about Jamie in the early days of your
02:14:41
courtship about him doing a motorcycle
02:14:43
trip around Afghanistan and bringing you
02:14:45
some stones. So, he's obviously like a
02:14:47
has the sort of loner gene as well.
02:14:49
>> Yes. Yes, he does.
02:14:50
>> How do you how do you navigate that as a
02:14:52
couple?
02:14:53
>> From a distance.
02:14:54
>> Oh, yeah.
02:14:55
>> Is that the key to a successful
02:14:56
marriage? just avoiding it. No,
02:14:58
>> we we do. Do do you know you know how
02:15:01
you kind of go I can't believe it took
02:15:02
us so long, but you know how sometimes
02:15:04
you're like you you think you're going
02:15:06
to you're going to have to be always
02:15:08
together and have every dinner together
02:15:10
and go to sleep together at 9:30. We've
02:15:11
got completely different circadian
02:15:14
cycles and preferences for life. I get
02:15:16
mega excited in the evening. I love to
02:15:17
do my research at night. I read some of
02:15:19
the best articles, you know, research
02:15:21
articles at night. Jamie likes to conqu
02:15:23
at 9:30 like a little old lady. And it's
02:15:25
okay. And it took us ages to go why
02:15:28
don't we who said that we have to be
02:15:30
like holding hands and be all bobbing
02:15:32
together through life. It's but it's the
02:15:33
best. We give each other um incredible
02:15:36
level of support. We have profound level
02:15:38
of trust. Jamie has incredible passion
02:15:41
for skydiving. That's his space to be.
02:15:44
My stuff is travel. I dread the thought
02:15:46
of being stopped or worrying about doing
02:15:48
some of the work I do because my husband
02:15:50
might want me home.
02:15:51
>> And that's not a common thing. But
02:15:53
everyone should afford each other if you
02:15:56
have the privilege of love and
02:15:59
partnership to see the other person as
02:16:02
someone who supports you in chasing your
02:16:04
madness. I I think it's the greatest
02:16:06
thing. So we give each other space and
02:16:08
that makes us want one another even
02:16:10
more.
02:16:11
>> When when situations arrive as they do
02:16:13
in all relationships, are you good at
02:16:15
yeah facing them front on or do you tend
02:16:17
to like I'll deal with that another day?
02:16:19
>> Oh, it just depends. I mean, wouldn't it
02:16:20
be great if we followed the book? No, we
02:16:22
we smash the book. We smash the book. We
02:16:23
tear every page apart and then we stick
02:16:25
it back together.
02:16:26
>> We're like, "Ah, that mattered. Let's
02:16:28
try it again."
02:16:29
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're horrendously
02:16:31
rebellious when it comes to the
02:16:32
recommendations. You know, Jamie rejects
02:16:34
the stuff I offer and then he finds it
02:16:36
in some sort of, I don't know, podcast.
02:16:37
He listens and he's like, "Oh, that
02:16:39
thing is sad."
02:16:42
You know, five years later, and he might
02:16:45
he may or may not give me credit and and
02:16:46
that's the thing that kills me. And then
02:16:48
I have to get over my ego and then we
02:16:49
talk about it. Yeah. I mean, come on.
02:16:51
>> Is that right? He tries to [ __ ] on your
02:16:53
research, does he?
02:16:53
>> He doesn't even hear it. He's like, as
02:16:55
if you'd know. I'm like, yes, I do.
02:16:57
>> 25 years. There's a lot of degrees
02:16:59
behind that thing, you know? But yeah.
02:17:02
>> Hey, this has been so great. I'm so
02:17:04
pleased we connected to make this um
02:17:05
podcast happened. Uh this is one that's
02:17:08
going to stick with me for a long time,
02:17:09
and I'm sure it's going to stick with
02:17:10
anyone that listens to it or watches it
02:17:11
for a long time as well. You're so
02:17:13
inspiring.
02:17:14
>> Stop it.
02:17:17
>> You're not good at it.
02:17:17
>> So you No, it's I think Yeah. Thank you
02:17:20
so much. That genuinely means the world.
02:17:22
>> Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being
02:17:23
a guest on my podcast and uh yeah, I
02:17:25
hope we remain friends after this.
02:17:27
>> Yes, please.
02:17:28
>> Love it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
02:17:29
you.
