00:00:06
You've been through some [ __ ]
00:00:07
>> I've just seen all these flashing
00:00:08
lights. They threw me on the ground,
00:00:10
pointed guns at me. My kids were awake
00:00:11
at that time. I didn't have a criminal
00:00:13
record. I never been to jail. I didn't
00:00:14
do anything wrong.
00:00:15
>> What were they like from what you know?
00:00:16
>> I got sort of like a memory loss. The
00:00:18
abuse that happened with me at the age
00:00:20
of eight.
00:00:20
>> What does that do to a person?
00:00:21
>> I went into a real dark space. My mom
00:00:23
was sick. Two of my kids wanted to take
00:00:25
their life. I wanted to take my life.
00:00:27
Detention is worse than prison. I've
00:00:28
been asked by someone, can you help me
00:00:30
cut myself?
00:00:31
>> Someone setting themselves on fire.
00:00:32
>> He took his life.
00:00:33
>> What did stop you from taking your own
00:00:34
life?
00:00:34
>> My daughter,
00:00:37
welcome to my podcast.
00:00:39
>> Kilda Dom, thanks for having me.
00:00:41
>> It's great to meet you and have you here
00:00:43
in my podcast studio.
00:00:44
>> Yeah. No, thanks, man. It's uh been a
00:00:46
bit of a miss to get here, but um we're
00:00:48
here and we're doing it and yeah um
00:00:50
yeah, thanks for having us here. Do do
00:00:52
you mean a miss to get here as in the
00:00:54
journey from pick up the rental car at
00:00:55
the airport to here or you mean like the
00:00:57
last 10 15 years?
00:00:58
>> N the the rental car
00:01:03
we'll get into your whole the rental car
00:01:05
is nothing compared to like the last 10
00:01:07
20 years of your life. You've you've
00:01:09
you've been through some [ __ ]
00:01:11
>> Yep. Yeah. Know I have. So yeah,
00:01:14
>> finish the sentence for me. I'm not a
00:01:16
501. I am
00:01:20
>> um
00:01:21
I'm a youth worker. I'm a survivor.
00:01:26
Um and you know, we talk about people on
00:01:30
social media about being influencers and
00:01:33
and stuff like that. For me, um you
00:01:37
know, I want to create that space for
00:01:39
change change makers.
00:01:40
>> You know, the change makers are the
00:01:43
people that make changes in their life
00:01:45
and help others as well. So, um I like
00:01:48
to, you know, be that person in my
00:01:51
community to um to be to be a change
00:01:54
maker, you know. Um I don't look at
00:01:56
myself as um an influencer or a mentor,
00:02:02
you know, I'm a qualified youth worker
00:02:04
now and um I just make changes in my
00:02:07
community and wherever I can to help um
00:02:10
especially. So, yeah, that's um me.
00:02:16
That's just scratching the surface.
00:02:17
Yeah. Dad of seven as well.
00:02:19
>> Yep. Dad of seven.
00:02:21
>> Is Is that all we know about? Is that
00:02:24
>> Yes. I'm a Yep. So I'm a dad of seven.
00:02:27
Um I have five grandkids now of um Yeah.
00:02:32
Um four boys, one girl. Um my kids, I
00:02:35
have six girls, one boy. Um when we have
00:02:39
that boy, we always think, "Yeah,
00:02:41
daddy's boy." But uh he's not. He's
00:02:43
mommy's boy. So, I've got got the girl.
00:02:46
So, yeah. Yep.
00:02:49
>> What do people misunderstand most about
00:02:50
the 501 label?
00:02:53
>> Um, man, everyone thinks 501's are the
00:02:58
baddest or the baddest, you know. Um,
00:03:01
there's all
00:03:03
there's all sorts of 501's, man. There's
00:03:05
all sorts of 501's that are coming
00:03:07
through. Um,
00:03:10
you know, I see a 501 as, you know,
00:03:14
getting deported. Um, you know, we heard
00:03:18
in the media about, you know, we're the
00:03:20
worst of the worst. We're just trash.
00:03:22
We're we're this and that, but, you
00:03:25
know, it's it's not all all all that,
00:03:28
you know. Uh, we all we've all got
00:03:30
different stories,
00:03:31
>> you know. We all come from different
00:03:32
walks of life um and and stuff like
00:03:36
that. So, when you're actually in the in
00:03:39
the system and when you're filing your
00:03:41
your case, um, and you see who's who and
00:03:45
why and who gets their visas back, um,
00:03:48
it's all up and down. It's it's not a,
00:03:50
um, it's not all the same thing. So,
00:03:53
yeah, you know, 501 is we we've been
00:03:56
labeled as a a gang, you know, 501 gang.
00:03:59
There's no 501 gang, you know, it's just
00:04:02
a label that we that we have. What does
00:04:04
that label feel like when it's attached
00:04:06
to you personally?
00:04:08
>> Um, for me it's part of my story.
00:04:11
>> You know, I've got a lot of brothers out
00:04:12
there that they they don't want to talk
00:04:15
about being a 501, they don't think
00:04:17
themselves even when they've changed
00:04:18
their lives. But for me, um, every talk
00:04:21
I have, you know, it's just part of my
00:04:23
story of where I am today. Um, like I
00:04:27
say, I've walked a my my journey is a
00:04:30
little bit different to some of the
00:04:32
other 501's. um you know but um like I
00:04:36
say it's where we are labeled you know
00:04:40
being criminals being the baddest of the
00:04:43
baddest and stuff like that and um I've
00:04:45
met met a few five ones that aren't
00:04:47
aren't like that you know so um you know
00:04:51
getting sent home for you know minor
00:04:53
minor offenses and not even not even any
00:04:56
so um yeah
00:04:59
>> well I can't wait to get into the story
00:05:00
because you got sent home just for um
00:05:03
What was that? What's the term? It's
00:05:05
like questionable character or
00:05:06
>> Yeah, they call it the character
00:05:08
grounds. Um I was actually on um you
00:05:11
know there some of us were on there was
00:05:13
a 501 or a 503. 503 is to do with secret
00:05:16
information.
00:05:18
How do how do we get secret information?
00:05:20
The government don't want to give it to
00:05:22
us because then they're giving away
00:05:24
their so-called secret. I don't know
00:05:26
what their secret information was. um
00:05:28
that I'm I was in an outlaw motorcycle
00:05:32
motorcycle club or or what. But um for
00:05:35
me, you know, um part of my story is
00:05:38
that I got done for association. You
00:05:40
know, I didn't have a criminal record.
00:05:42
Um I had Australian kids and I never
00:05:46
been to jail, but I went to jail uh when
00:05:50
they deported me and I ended up ended up
00:05:52
in there for 6 months. So all in up I
00:05:55
was uh fighting my case for 22 months
00:05:58
for for pretty much a character ground
00:06:01
where you know I didn't by law it's you
00:06:04
know you didn't have um a serious
00:06:06
criminal record or never spent more than
00:06:09
12 months in in jail you know and that
00:06:12
was back in 2015. So, and a lot of
00:06:14
things have changed there, but it's um
00:06:18
it it's ridiculous how and or how they
00:06:21
are sending people back to to New
00:06:23
Zealand. And yeah, and and part of my
00:06:26
journey too is sitting there fighting my
00:06:29
case and everyone says, "Yeah, but
00:06:31
you're you're a bikey, you know, you
00:06:34
should have got sent home ages ago, this
00:06:36
and that." But end of the day, I didn't
00:06:38
do anything wrong, you know, and you put
00:06:40
me in jail for it, you know, for not
00:06:42
doing anything wrong, you know. Yeah.
00:06:45
>> Yeah. It's a it's a wild story. And just
00:06:47
to um hook people in now, um we're going
00:06:50
to we're going to go through this path
00:06:52
um in chronological order.
00:06:55
Um but your time as a free man in
00:06:57
Australia ended with you just driving to
00:06:58
work at 7:00 in the morning one morning
00:07:00
and um getting pulled over by a by a
00:07:03
bunch of cops and being thrown in jail
00:07:04
just on your way to on your way to work
00:07:05
as a carpet layer.
00:07:06
>> Yeah. And that's crazy.
00:07:08
>> Yeah, it was crazy. And um I was sort of
00:07:10
watching you know um a couple other
00:07:14
brothers that were getting pulled in and
00:07:17
um you know those those brothers were um
00:07:21
you know they done their time you know
00:07:24
uh they been out of trouble for for
00:07:26
quite a while and then um it was uh
00:07:29
couple couple of nights before I got
00:07:32
pulled up um another one of our close
00:07:35
brothers you know he served in the army
00:07:37
and um you know when he got pulled in he
00:07:40
was sort of the same boat as me. I'm
00:07:42
like, "Oh, okay." Now I'm thinking, my
00:07:44
mind's going. It's like, "Oh, you know,
00:07:47
am I going to be next?" But I didn't
00:07:48
think that because I didn't have a
00:07:49
criminal record, never been to jail. So,
00:07:51
I just lived life normal. And then,
00:07:53
yeah, uh the 2nd of November, I think it
00:07:56
was uh Monday, Monday morning.
00:07:59
>> And it was actually thing because I was
00:08:00
actually on the phone talking to my
00:08:03
mate's partner and just making sure, you
00:08:05
know, if if she's okay, is their family
00:08:08
okay and stuff like that. And then man,
00:08:10
I just seen um seen all these these
00:08:13
lights go off, you know, didn't hear no
00:08:15
noise or anything. Just looked in the
00:08:17
rearview room and um I just seen all
00:08:19
these flashing lights and I just knew
00:08:21
that something's up and um you just got
00:08:24
sworn by them.
00:08:25
>> I mean, yeah, two year two years of um
00:08:27
losing your freedom before being
00:08:28
deported back to New Zealand. Um
00:08:31
>> does the government here in New Zealand
00:08:33
need to be doing more?
00:08:34
>> Yeah, they do.
00:08:35
>> Like what?
00:08:37
like when 2015 is when it it started
00:08:42
building um you know uh they started
00:08:46
doing heat and stuff like that. People
00:08:49
started getting out there and talking
00:08:50
about it. Uh I met some met some people
00:08:54
um that come and visit me over in Albany
00:08:56
prison. Uh they were about to do a um I
00:08:59
do a walk around Australia. Uh I think
00:09:02
uh what's his name? Kelvin Davis was
00:09:03
there and um having those conversations
00:09:07
on why why are we getting deported? Why,
00:09:11
you know, um and and honestly, man,
00:09:14
there was a certain person in power, you
00:09:17
know, for me, I looked at it as, you
00:09:19
know, he's in power now. He he just
00:09:21
wants to be a bully,
00:09:23
>> you know, he um he wants to have
00:09:26
authority and stuff like that. And um
00:09:31
for for us to have the conversations on
00:09:33
on 501's, you know, I've met so many
00:09:36
different people that have done
00:09:38
different sort of crimes. But when you
00:09:40
sit in a detention center and for
00:09:43
association, you see all these people
00:09:44
getting their visas back. You know, I've
00:09:46
seen a couple of people getting it three
00:09:48
or four times in and out of detention.
00:09:50
You know, here I am sitting here going,
00:09:52
man, what have I done wrong?
00:09:54
Association. Yeah. Okay. But like I
00:09:56
don't him done a crime, you know.
00:09:58
>> Uh and a lot of the other boys in there
00:10:00
have changed their lives, you know. But
00:10:02
I've just seen these followers with, you
00:10:04
know, with um records that should have
00:10:07
been deported.
00:10:08
>> I'm not being thing or anything, but the
00:10:10
they they're free, you know. They get a
00:10:12
they get a second chance in life,
00:10:15
>> you know. Um and for there was six of
00:10:17
us, you know, and for me to sit there
00:10:20
and I couldn't go up on the the board,
00:10:22
you know, in front of the panel. I had
00:10:24
to go to the highest of the high court
00:10:26
and um I had to sit there and just wait.
00:10:29
Even our lawyers, you know, we had the
00:10:31
best lawyers in Australia to do the you
00:10:34
know do the court case and even they
00:10:36
were just like man what do we do? You
00:10:38
know what what's the answer? So yeah, it
00:10:41
it was um hard and it is hard to see,
00:10:44
you know, it's hard to see people that
00:10:47
live most their life in um in Australia
00:10:50
getting deported. You know, when other
00:10:52
people get second chances and and have
00:10:54
that option, some of us don't get that.
00:10:57
>> Since 2014, uh there's 3,000 Kiwis that
00:11:00
have been deported from Australia as
00:11:02
501's and around half of them have gone
00:11:04
on to like reaffend back in New Zealand.
00:11:06
Why do you think that is? And why are
00:11:08
you on the good side of that 50%.
00:11:11
>> A lot of these people come home to
00:11:13
nothing. They don't know anyone. You
00:11:15
know, their family's over there. You
00:11:17
know, what are they coming back to?
00:11:19
Coming back to what $250 and the weeks
00:11:23
weeks of um you know, in a hotel, what's
00:11:27
you know, what's going to happen after
00:11:28
that? You know, I'm not going to sit
00:11:31
here and talk on behalf of everyone, but
00:11:33
for me, I come home. I haven't been home
00:11:35
for a while. Obviously, I had the club.
00:11:38
Uh, but I had heaps of family here,
00:11:40
>> you know. I had I had a I had a plan and
00:11:43
what I was going to do um and who and
00:11:46
how I was going to do it, but it was
00:11:48
just hard leaving my family back there
00:11:49
to come back and sort my stuff here, you
00:11:52
know. Um,
00:11:54
yeah, it it's it's hard for our people,
00:11:57
you know. We got to stop blaming, you
00:11:59
know, got to stop blaming the clubs and
00:12:00
the gangs for picking these people up.
00:12:02
They've got nothing else to do. what are
00:12:04
they going to do, you know, live on the
00:12:06
street, be homeless, you know, that's
00:12:08
probably the people they're going to go
00:12:10
to,
00:12:11
>> you know, but for me, you know, I had to
00:12:14
had to make changes. But like I say, I
00:12:16
come home, but I was still I was still
00:12:18
in the club, you know. So, that was just
00:12:21
part of, you know, where I had to go
00:12:23
when I come home. So, yeah.
00:12:28
Well, you
00:12:30
I [ __ ] I mate, I know [ __ ] about any I I
00:12:32
know nothing about any of this. All I
00:12:34
know is like the [ __ ] I see on TV. Um
00:12:36
but I'm gathering like it's um if
00:12:38
they've been loyal to you and you see
00:12:39
them as a brotherhood, it's hard to turn
00:12:41
your back on them when they've been
00:12:42
there for you when no one else was.
00:12:43
>> Yeah. And and and you know um
00:12:47
my journey away from the club, you know,
00:12:50
I I I leave that behind. I don't talk
00:12:52
about it, you know, I respect that. Um
00:12:55
you know, because that was my world. um
00:12:58
you know this is my world now as a as a
00:13:00
youth worker. I talk it talk about it in
00:13:03
times with my talks and that I don't go
00:13:05
out and and say I'm this this and that
00:13:07
and I used to be blah blah blah because
00:13:09
that's not me. I respect that. Um and
00:13:12
and stuff like that. So for me, you
00:13:16
know, uh it was hard because they did
00:13:19
help me out. They were there for my
00:13:20
family. They were there for me. There
00:13:22
was a reason why I fought it because it
00:13:24
doesn't matter,
00:13:26
>> you know, what you were, who you are.
00:13:28
you know, you you put me in a system
00:13:30
where I didn't do anything wrong because
00:13:31
some some person that got the power to
00:13:34
just deport any person that want and you
00:13:37
look at most of these most of them were
00:13:38
Kiwis and that, but most of them were
00:13:39
Pacific Islanders. Most of them were
00:13:41
moldies, you know. Most of them were old
00:13:44
and that have that have um changed their
00:13:46
lives around, you know, and um and to
00:13:50
still get sent back home, you know, not
00:13:52
the options of hey, you know, can we
00:13:54
have another shot at it? And like we
00:13:56
say, like if you get another crack at
00:13:58
it, take it, you know, don't don't ruin
00:14:01
it and say, "Okay, you know, you're
00:14:02
going to get into trouble again." Take
00:14:04
that and and make the changes you have
00:14:06
to. But some of us didn't get that
00:14:08
opportunity.
00:14:10
>> What does the word redemption mean to
00:14:11
you?
00:14:12
>> [ __ ] Redemption.
00:14:14
>> It's a very romantic word, eh?
00:14:16
>> Yeah, it is.
00:14:17
>> It's hard. Redemption is hard, man.
00:14:21
>> Um,
00:14:22
>> hard to get or hard to be given by other
00:14:24
people? hard hard to to make redemption,
00:14:27
you know, to get there because of all
00:14:29
the roadblocks, the the stuff we we go
00:14:32
through, you know, um especially as a,
00:14:35
you know, a club member. That's that's
00:14:37
all I knew over over in Aussie and um
00:14:41
coming home, you know, I'm coming home
00:14:43
to in the club. I'm coming home to uh
00:14:46
trauma. I'm coming home to my kids I
00:14:48
haven't seen for a while. um coming home
00:14:50
to you know being all over the news for
00:14:54
for why I was deported and stuff like
00:14:56
that. So um when you when you come home
00:15:00
and you haven't sorted your [ __ ] out,
00:15:02
you know, and my [ __ ] was my trauma. So
00:15:04
I went, you know, I'm I'm from Blenham.
00:15:06
So I went back to Blenham and had so
00:15:09
much going on my on, you know, mental
00:15:11
health. Um, my mom was sick, you know,
00:15:15
two of my kids, you know, wanted to take
00:15:17
their life, you know, uh, I wanted to
00:15:20
take my life. Um, club was club was me,
00:15:23
but it was different, you know. I was
00:15:25
used to my brothers over in Aussie and
00:15:28
stuff like that. And most of them lived
00:15:30
away from me, you know, either Oakland
00:15:31
or or Christurch and that. And um,
00:15:34
especially my close my close, you know,
00:15:36
my close brothers, they were in Oakland.
00:15:38
And then I just had to go back to
00:15:40
Blenham and and and settle my family and
00:15:42
stuff like that. And um uh yeah, it just
00:15:46
kicked in. Mental health got me real bad
00:15:48
because I went back there and
00:15:50
>> um blaming myself a little bit, you
00:15:53
know, but it was um yeah, it was a
00:15:56
pretty pretty dark time that you know, I
00:15:58
went into a real dark space. Um yeah,
00:16:02
mentally
00:16:03
>> and I just had to make some make some
00:16:05
changes. But redemption. Yeah,
00:16:07
redemption is hard. It's not easy, but
00:16:10
it is possible,
00:16:11
>> you know.
00:16:13
>> Yeah. Cuz you can turn your life around,
00:16:15
but then there's other people around you
00:16:16
that um maybe like the idea of
00:16:18
redemption,
00:16:19
>> but just won't give you a chance.
00:16:22
>> Yeah. And it's hard to hear, you know,
00:16:25
people ask me, man, how did you change
00:16:27
your life? How how did you become who I
00:16:30
am today? And I just like, man, it was
00:16:32
it's it was a lot of hard work. You
00:16:35
know, I when I talk about changes in my
00:16:37
life, you know, I left the club 2019.
00:16:40
I've been away for it for a while and I
00:16:43
always tell people that, hey, my
00:16:44
journey, you know, started, you know,
00:16:47
nearly 7 years ago, but it didn't. It
00:16:49
started when I was 8 years old. That's
00:16:51
where my journey, that's where my
00:16:52
journey of of where I created where I am
00:16:55
now, you know, 8 years old. And um we
00:16:58
can talk about that later about how that
00:17:00
journey journey is. And that's where my
00:17:03
my journey of life started, you know.
00:17:05
>> Okay. Well, let's get into that. Um, now
00:17:09
the the early years, there's there's um
00:17:11
there's a saying or a theory that um
00:17:13
something like 80 or 90% of a kid's
00:17:14
brain development is done in the first
00:17:16
thousand days or 3 years.
00:17:18
>> What were your what are your memories of
00:17:20
your first three years?
00:17:21
>> What were they like from what you know,
00:17:24
>> man? Everyone asks me that. Okay.
00:17:28
My my
00:17:33
um
00:17:35
I've got a I've got I got sort of like a
00:17:37
memory loss as a part of my trauma. Uh I
00:17:40
don't really remember much of my
00:17:41
childhood. You know, it's real hard. Um
00:17:44
because of the abuse that happened with
00:17:46
me and stuff like that. And um yeah, I I
00:17:49
I remember moments, but I don't, you
00:17:52
know, I don't remember good times, you
00:17:55
know. Uh I remember the the [ __ ] times
00:17:58
the
00:18:00
yeah the times that I I got hurt and
00:18:03
just going through the system going
00:18:04
through school and and stuff like that.
00:18:06
So, um I remember bits and every time
00:18:10
people want to talk about my young
00:18:12
childhood, I just remember bits of it
00:18:14
and and it is real hard to to have those
00:18:17
conversations because um the stuff that
00:18:20
I do now uh with young Langati and that
00:18:24
now it it I'm that little that little
00:18:26
kid that that I wasn't when I was
00:18:28
younger.
00:18:29
>> So, um yeah.
00:18:31
>> Was there um any of the um essential
00:18:34
ingredients for like a young kid in New
00:18:35
Zealand? Like was there was there love?
00:18:37
Was there boundaries?
00:18:39
>> Yeah, there was love but there was
00:18:41
different you know um you know my trauma
00:18:46
is sexual abuse. Uh my trauma is you
00:18:50
know being raped when I was was you know
00:18:52
a young kid and that was the age of
00:18:54
eight. Uh I moved to Blenham when I
00:18:56
think I was about 7 years old. So, um,
00:18:59
we sit there and, um, what's love to us,
00:19:02
you know, when you've been hurt. Um,
00:19:06
yeah, you know, and I didn't, um, people
00:19:09
that have been through that sort of
00:19:10
trauma. Um, yeah, it's hard for them to
00:19:14
do that. It's hard for them to feel
00:19:15
love, you know, when you're seeing, you
00:19:18
know, solar parent, um, you know,
00:19:21
obviously abuse, alcohol, drugs,
00:19:24
violence,
00:19:25
you know, um, going through the system,
00:19:30
you know, at a young age, hating
00:19:32
yourself. It's your fault, you know.
00:19:34
It's all on me, you know. Um, I was the
00:19:38
problem. I was the black sheep of the
00:19:41
family, you know. And um it was hard
00:19:43
because I had you know I looked up to my
00:19:46
brother you know he was the sporty one.
00:19:49
He was the one going to the good
00:19:51
schools. He got to go away to boarding
00:19:53
school real good school. You know my
00:19:55
sister she was looked after. But I was
00:19:57
going through that through those through
00:19:59
the school just still, you know, the
00:20:02
anger, the ADHD, you know, the anger
00:20:06
issues, the, you know, getting in
00:20:08
trouble with the cops and and stuff like
00:20:11
that while everyone else I thought was,
00:20:13
you know, had a good life. So, um, yeah,
00:20:16
that's, you know, love is hard. You
00:20:19
know, we we we we get it from our
00:20:21
parents, but, you know, it wasn't all
00:20:24
the time, you know. Don't get me wrong,
00:20:26
I love my mom. You know, my mom's not
00:20:27
here anymore.
00:20:28
>> And um she done a good job. She always
00:20:31
taught us no matter what, thank yous and
00:20:33
the pleas and the respect to to her
00:20:35
elders and if someone, you know, if you
00:20:38
respect someone, they should give you
00:20:39
the respect back. So, mom taught me
00:20:41
that, but um you know, it it was hard.
00:20:45
Yeah.
00:20:46
>> Was there was there a time where you
00:20:48
resented her or were angry that she
00:20:49
didn't do more to protect you?
00:20:51
>> Yeah. You know, we go through when we
00:20:52
were in those younger when in my younger
00:20:54
life. Yeah, we say, "Man, you're
00:20:56
supposed to protect me." You know, when
00:20:57
it was supposed to be a close family
00:20:59
friend that looked after us, you know,
00:21:01
it's those moments where, man, you know,
00:21:04
but I knew I knew I knew my mom loved
00:21:06
me, you know, um and stuff like that.
00:21:10
And when you're when you you know, you
00:21:13
get brought up and and uh don't get me
00:21:16
wrong this, I love my dad. My my my dad
00:21:18
I've got a real good relationship with
00:21:19
my dad now. And um having him not
00:21:22
around, you know, was real hard.
00:21:25
>> Who do I talk to? You know, back in
00:21:27
those days, I didn't have a a social
00:21:30
worker, if that's what you call. I
00:21:31
didn't have a youth worker or a mentor
00:21:33
or stuff like that where I can just go
00:21:35
and say, "Hey, man." You know, what I
00:21:36
got was, "Yeah, you go to counseling,
00:21:39
but the counselor you're going to see is
00:21:40
a male." And I was like, "Well, I
00:21:41
couldn't see a male because the male was
00:21:43
the one that hurt me, you know." I said,
00:21:45
"How the how the how the am I going to
00:21:46
go see a a male counselor when, you
00:21:50
know, the perpetrator was one, you
00:21:51
know?"
00:21:52
>> Yeah. Mistrust male.
00:21:53
>> Mistrust. Yeah. Males. And And every
00:21:55
time I got someone was a male, it's just
00:21:57
like, man, how how does that work? You
00:21:59
know,
00:22:02
>> mate, that's really [ __ ] If you could
00:22:04
go back um and have a word to primary
00:22:08
school age, Lee, you're that scared,
00:22:10
broken little boy, what would you say to
00:22:12
him?
00:22:14
You know what I learned, man, from from
00:22:16
a good bro of mine, couple of bros that
00:22:17
I do, Matt Brown's one of them.
00:22:20
>> You know, we're looking at we look in
00:22:21
ourselves and we go, we just want to
00:22:23
have a look and and get that inner boy
00:22:26
out of us, you know. Um,
00:22:30
you know, we all want this beautiful
00:22:32
normal life, but um yeah, you know,
00:22:36
probably going back is just like just
00:22:38
realizing and thinking to myself, [ __ ]
00:22:40
it wasn't my fault. M no,
00:22:42
>> it wasn't my fault. You are loved, but
00:22:45
um
00:22:46
yeah, it it wasn't your fault. And um I
00:22:51
should have got more wraparounds and
00:22:52
more more stuff, but when you when
00:22:54
you're coming out of a place, you know,
00:22:57
solid parent and the violence and the
00:23:00
the alcohol and all that going through
00:23:02
the through the house and no food, you
00:23:04
know, stuff like that. It's, you know,
00:23:07
it it is hard to to look at that and and
00:23:10
say, "Hey, you know, look at yourself
00:23:12
and and go um yeah, and those that
00:23:16
question that asked." So, it is hard.
00:23:18
>> Yeah.
00:23:18
>> As as um the great Matt Brown says, the
00:23:21
shame is not yours to carry.
00:23:23
>> Yeah. You know, and and having the work
00:23:26
I've done in the last 6 years um has
00:23:29
helped me. You know, I get professional
00:23:31
help now. I used to be that person that
00:23:34
man go see a counselor, you know, they
00:23:36
just want to sit there, tick the boxes
00:23:38
off. And I'm actually lucky that I have
00:23:39
a good counselor. Um, I've been seeing
00:23:42
her for nearly 6 years now. She was with
00:23:44
me while I was in the club
00:23:46
>> and I reached out and
00:23:48
had to do all that sort of stuff. So,
00:23:50
uh, opening those there and un
00:23:52
unraveling and unmasking all those
00:23:54
stuff, you know, and unmasking is
00:23:56
getting off, you know, that the
00:23:58
drinking, the drugs.
00:24:00
um sitting in the dark alone,
00:24:03
>> you know, mental health, depression. Um
00:24:06
you know, I do have, you know, we always
00:24:09
talk about depression and mental health.
00:24:10
I have serious depression. I have
00:24:12
serious PTSD, bit of anxiety and stuff
00:24:15
like that, but I know how to control it.
00:24:18
You know, I don't for me now. I tried
00:24:22
medication. I don't need to be on
00:24:23
medication for that sort of stuff. Um my
00:24:26
medication is see my my youth the men
00:24:30
the people helping my community making
00:24:32
the changes and seeing the changes and
00:24:34
what they're doing that that fills me up
00:24:36
that fills my cup up you know when it
00:24:38
goes empty you know I look back on stuff
00:24:41
and and look at the stuff that I that I
00:24:43
have done and made changes so um yeah
00:24:46
>> is that a a better high than any drug?
00:24:49
Yeah. You know, you know, it's there
00:24:52
forever, you know. We
00:24:54
we we we use the alcohol and the drugs
00:24:57
to mask everything to take take
00:24:59
everything away, take the pain away, you
00:25:01
know, and um it it doesn't work, you
00:25:04
know? We we get off the drugs and the
00:25:06
drinking and we're just back into that
00:25:08
same cycle. E wake up again, same the
00:25:10
same shit's going to happen again.
00:25:12
>> Yeah. you know, so um you've got to
00:25:15
really look inside yourself and and work
00:25:18
hard on it, you know, and and that's
00:25:20
what I've done. And um you know and when
00:25:25
I sit there and I I look where I am
00:25:27
today, all it was, man, is looking in
00:25:29
the mirror and saying to myself that um
00:25:33
that I I love myself, that I am, you
00:25:35
know, I have a purpose, you know, and
00:25:38
and for me, part of the journey I I've
00:25:41
seen now is I found my purpose. I always
00:25:43
thought I was going to follow go down
00:25:45
that track of, you know, being brought
00:25:47
up in in in those in that world of, you
00:25:50
know, drugs, alcohol, violence, and
00:25:52
stuff like that that, okay, we're going
00:25:53
to go down the the the road of joining a
00:25:56
a gang or a motorcycle club. I just
00:25:58
found the right people over in Australia
00:26:01
that I really got close to and found
00:26:04
that brotherhood and stuff like that and
00:26:06
that's where I went. Um, and I always
00:26:09
thought I was going to be that, but
00:26:10
coming home and unraveling and un and
00:26:14
unmasking all that stuff and traumas and
00:26:17
and um stuff that I was going through
00:26:20
that actually there is another purpose
00:26:22
for me,
00:26:23
>> you know.
00:26:24
>> Did you ever have dreams as a little
00:26:25
boy? Like what did you want to be when
00:26:26
you grew up?
00:26:27
>> If I
00:26:31
just I'm just curious because um
00:26:33
>> again I know I know [ __ ] I know nothing
00:26:35
about anything. But what I do know were
00:26:37
your dreams when you're raised in a
00:26:38
normal environment, a normal healthy
00:26:40
>> people, people got to laugh at this cuz
00:26:43
I went to school, you know, a couple of
00:26:45
things I did remember is I went to
00:26:47
school and I think it might have been 9
00:26:50
10
00:26:51
>> and I don't know I watched I think it
00:26:54
was Fresh Prince of Bellia and I made
00:26:56
Butler the butler. I don't know what it
00:26:58
was. was like, "Father, that fell's a
00:27:00
cool dude, man. Far, you know, bridge
00:27:03
mansion, you know, hey, look, you know,
00:27:08
>> that's where the money's at." E, you
00:27:10
know, and I was just like, "Oh, a but
00:27:12
like that sounds pretty cool." And I
00:27:15
don't talk about that much. I like had I
00:27:18
had it for a while, bro. Like, oh yeah,
00:27:21
that's where the money's at. And then,
00:27:23
yeah, got over that phase. And um you
00:27:26
know the the truth band and people were
00:27:27
thing is um you know the options down
00:27:31
the track was was to be a police
00:27:33
officer.
00:27:34
>> You know it was but until you know I was
00:27:36
a certain age man 12 13 when my dad got
00:27:40
in trouble with them and they called him
00:27:42
the n-word and stuff like that and I
00:27:44
just looked at police as you know racist
00:27:48
people and um yeah and then I just
00:27:51
thought okay well I'm not going to ever
00:27:52
be a policeman. So,
00:27:54
>> um, yeah, I ended up being a, um, ended
00:27:57
up being a, uh, car really. So, that was
00:28:01
my my career and where I was.
00:28:04
>> What was your relationship like with
00:28:06
drugs and alcohol?
00:28:07
>> Like when when did it begin? I'm just
00:28:09
curious cuz it seems like um, from what
00:28:11
I know about you, and we'll get through
00:28:12
all of this, but it seems like you had
00:28:13
full-time jobs and hard manual labor
00:28:16
through through most of your life. um
00:28:18
you can't um you can't have a a you know
00:28:21
a massive massive you know uh drug or
00:28:23
alcohol habit and maintain a job like
00:28:26
that.
00:28:26
>> Yeah. I um you know when I'm out there
00:28:30
talking about my talk so I'm opening up
00:28:32
more a bit about the alcohol uh the
00:28:34
drugs um you know
00:28:38
when we have conversations with our kids
00:28:40
and and what they're doing and stuff
00:28:42
like that I'll always sit in that space
00:28:44
where everything I talk about uh and I
00:28:47
hear from my that I've got to be true to
00:28:49
myself
00:28:50
>> you know because they asked the
00:28:51
questions and um alcohol man was massive
00:28:56
like alcohol was just that was me. Um
00:28:59
drinking all the time. Um CO was real
00:29:02
bad. CO was like I got real deep into
00:29:04
alcohol. Um and drugs as well, you know.
00:29:08
Um we can sit here and people look at
00:29:11
you go, "Oh, you're a gang member and um
00:29:14
you know that's all you fellows do and
00:29:15
and this and that." Everything that I
00:29:18
done was me. You know, no one told me to
00:29:22
do this, this, and that. And I can
00:29:24
hardly put my my heart on there that
00:29:26
everything I done was for me. It wasn't
00:29:28
for anyone else, you know, and the drug
00:29:31
the drug thing, you know, um my my drug
00:29:35
of choice was cocaine, you know, and um
00:29:39
it's probably the first time today that
00:29:40
I've actually open about my habit and my
00:29:43
habit was real bad, you know. Um I've
00:29:46
been away that lifestyle for for 7 years
00:29:49
now. Um, and I don't do any more drugs
00:29:52
or anything like, but it was a masking
00:29:55
thing for me. You know, you you wouldn't
00:29:57
know you wouldn't know that I was on
00:29:59
that, you know. I I hit it quite well.
00:30:02
Um,
00:30:04
but it was a a big a big issue for me.
00:30:09
Uh, and mixing that with with with the
00:30:11
alcohol as well. So,
00:30:13
>> um, yeah, that was the the the drug
00:30:15
choice for me. And um you know it was it
00:30:20
was hard to to clean myself up but I
00:30:24
I've I've been clean for so long and it
00:30:26
it's just doesn't come onto my mind
00:30:28
about actually you know um taking
00:30:31
anymore and you know putting yourself
00:30:33
back into situations as well is when you
00:30:35
know that hey you know um if you're
00:30:38
around that sort of thing you you know
00:30:40
that you can you can get out of that
00:30:42
stuff you know not being around it. So
00:30:45
yeah,
00:30:46
>> it's an expensive drug. There's probably
00:30:48
a lot of um you very wellto-d do people
00:30:50
listening to this podcast or watching it
00:30:51
right now that have a bag in their
00:30:53
wallet or maybe went to Electric Avenue
00:30:55
last weekend with some of the same
00:30:57
thing.
00:30:58
>> Yeah.
00:30:58
>> Don't forget this was this is this is um
00:31:01
7 years ago, you know.
00:31:03
>> Um and I made the choice when I left
00:31:06
when I left and I wanted to make changes
00:31:08
in my life. I had to make the changes,
00:31:11
you know, drinking, you know, my
00:31:14
drinking, you know, because a lot of
00:31:16
people know who I am in town and and and
00:31:19
when I go out, I drink to socialize now.
00:31:22
I don't drink to go out there and get
00:31:24
wasted and look like a fool and, you
00:31:27
know, and and fool around everywhere
00:31:29
because, you know, that's not me
00:31:31
anymore, you know. So, and when I'm out,
00:31:34
the conversations I have is usually
00:31:36
about men's mental health. um you know
00:31:40
coming down to the the boxing gym uh and
00:31:43
stuff like that all my youth and doing
00:31:44
stuff in the community. So I don't you
00:31:47
know have to be out there now and and
00:31:49
just getting that wasted that I can't
00:31:51
remember the next day. So I'm not here
00:31:53
to tell people that hey I'm going to
00:31:55
stop drinking and I'm going to think
00:31:57
I'll socialize now and I can control it.
00:32:00
>> So um yeah.
00:32:02
>> Well it seems like you've created a life
00:32:03
that you actually enjoy living in rather
00:32:05
than a life that you want to escape
00:32:06
from.
00:32:07
>> Yeah. Yeah, I was escaping life for a
00:32:09
while, you know. And um
00:32:11
>> Is that what is that what cocaine and
00:32:12
alcohol gave you?
00:32:14
>> And just m Yeah, escape. Masking takes
00:32:16
it takes everything away, you know. It's
00:32:19
just like this this place we're in, man.
00:32:21
It's just like, man, we don't care, you
00:32:23
know? Life's cool. Life's easy. But when
00:32:27
it starts wearing off,
00:32:28
>> hey, we're back again.
00:32:31
>> Hey, the thoughts are coming, you know,
00:32:33
because we're we're hiding it. We're
00:32:35
masking it, you know. And um Never
00:32:37
outrun yourself either.
00:32:38
>> No.
00:32:40
>> Saying wherever you go, there you are.
00:32:41
>> Yeah. You know, so um Yeah.
00:32:45
>> Yeah.
00:32:46
>> So, hey, well, thanks for being open
00:32:47
about that stuff.
00:32:49
>> Yeah. Um so, 2005 you moved to
00:32:51
Australia.
00:32:52
>> Yep.
00:32:52
>> What was it that pulled you there?
00:32:54
>> Family. I was going to go to Brisbane. I
00:32:56
thought ah go to Brisbane and then
00:32:59
people messaging me from Blenham and
00:33:00
like man I want to move away from
00:33:02
Blenham not to be around Blenham, you
00:33:04
know? I just want a new start. Hey, like
00:33:06
all my mates live there. It's like you
00:33:09
come out to Brisbane. It's like a bro,
00:33:11
but you lived in Blenham and yeah, so I
00:33:13
thought moving to Perth, you know, would
00:33:15
be the place to go to and you know, went
00:33:18
there quietly and yeah, took me ages to
00:33:20
meet some boys from Blenham and then
00:33:22
Nick minute, you know, all these
00:33:23
followers are like, "Hey bro, how you
00:33:24
go? Who you Perth now?" This and that.
00:33:26
So, and I think it was more uh work as
00:33:29
well. Like over here, I was just
00:33:32
finished my apprenticeship for Kala. I
00:33:35
done security work down in Christ Church
00:33:36
which wasn't good money working two jobs
00:33:39
had young kids to my wife and um just
00:33:43
had to you know 20 bucks at the end of
00:33:44
the week it's not going to cut it so we
00:33:46
just thought hey let's go to Aussie give
00:33:48
the mines a go over there had a look at
00:33:51
the mines took me ages couldn't even get
00:33:53
in there so I thought I'll give Carpang
00:33:55
a go and just started contracting and
00:33:57
made some pretty good good money you
00:33:59
know with carpang over there so
00:34:02
>> the the the um the facial tattoos Did
00:34:04
you have them prior to moving to Aussie
00:34:06
or you got them over there?
00:34:07
>> I got them over there. Yeah. Got miss my
00:34:09
gear.
00:34:09
>> So, um, it was over in Australia that
00:34:12
you connected with the Rebels Motorcycle
00:34:13
Club. What? So, so you're working full
00:34:15
time as a carpet layer. You got a young
00:34:17
family. Why? Why was that not enough?
00:34:18
Why did you need something else?
00:34:20
>> I don't know. just met certain people,
00:34:23
you know, when you when you're brought
00:34:24
up in the life that some of us have, you
00:34:27
know, you find a connection, you know,
00:34:29
why are we moving to we moving into in
00:34:32
that direction? You know, and I just
00:34:33
seen this brotherhood. Um met a couple
00:34:35
of fellows. Um you know, the first
00:34:38
fellow I met, he had he had face tatto.
00:34:48
And that wasn't so I moved there 2005.
00:34:50
That was until 2010 2011,
00:34:54
>> you know. So when I when I met these
00:34:56
boys Yeah.
00:34:58
>> What did your partner say?
00:35:01
>> Uh, was she?
00:35:04
>> Nah, she wasn't, man. She she she, you
00:35:06
know, I um wasn't like I was living two
00:35:10
separate lives, but
00:35:12
>> yeah, it was my choice, you know. Um, I
00:35:16
made that choice, you know. So, and my
00:35:20
my kids, you know, to my wife were were
00:35:22
young. So,
00:35:24
>> um yeah, it was a choice that I made.
00:35:26
So,
00:35:27
>> yeah, I just seen, you know, I just seen
00:35:30
brotherhood. I seen I can connect to
00:35:33
these these followers and and stuff like
00:35:35
that. So, yeah, I just done it. I just
00:35:38
Yeah. went there, joined up, and yeah,
00:35:43
>> from from what I can gather from
00:35:45
listening to previous podcasts you've
00:35:46
been on, um you don't really like um
00:35:49
talking about this part of your life too
00:35:50
much, but I mean, we can be as open or a
00:35:53
shut about it as you want, but um I I
00:35:56
just feel incredibly naive about this.
00:35:57
Like, as I said earlier, all I know is
00:35:59
like what I see on what I'm fed on
00:36:01
mainstream media and on the news, but
00:36:03
are are you guys out there just like
00:36:05
selling drugs to kids and ripping people
00:36:07
off? Are you all bad?
00:36:09
>> No, we're not all bad. You know,
00:36:11
businessmen, you know, people are doing,
00:36:14
you know, what they what they are doing
00:36:16
and surviving, you know, doing things
00:36:18
for their family. You know, we always
00:36:21
have these conversations about gang
00:36:23
members, this and that. They're all bad
00:36:24
people. But, okay, what happens when the
00:36:28
government goes bad? What happens when a
00:36:30
police officer goes bad? What happens
00:36:31
when our teachers hurt our kids? Are
00:36:34
they all bad people? No, they're not.
00:36:37
You know, the media looks at it too.
00:36:40
Like I notice in Australia when, you
00:36:43
know, things are going all right over
00:36:45
there, but once [ __ ] happens bad with
00:36:47
the government or the news media or
00:36:49
something over there, who do they who do
00:36:51
they, you know, mask mask all their
00:36:53
stories up with? Oh, yeah. Gang members,
00:36:56
you know,
00:36:57
>> the they're doing this, the bikes are
00:36:58
doing this, this, and that to take the
00:37:00
focus away from what they're doing, you
00:37:03
know. So, I'm not going to sit here and
00:37:04
say that every single gang member is
00:37:06
good because that's just [ __ ] you
00:37:09
because, you know, not all gang members
00:37:11
are, you know, but what I do know is
00:37:14
that there are a lot of them making
00:37:15
changes, you know. There are a lot of
00:37:17
them doing doing good, you know. So, we
00:37:20
can't sit there and just say that
00:37:22
because don't forget like we say these
00:37:25
people in the the suits and the the ties
00:37:28
and that that are doing bad stuff, you
00:37:30
know. So, we can't just, you know, focus
00:37:33
on one one group, you know. So, yeah.
00:37:37
>> So, um illegal or antiso social
00:37:40
behavior, it's not like applauded or
00:37:42
encouraged in that environment.
00:37:43
>> No. Yeah. No. You know,
00:37:44
>> so if one if one of the brothers like
00:37:46
messes up, like the rest of you,
00:37:49
>> there's, you know, we can sit here and
00:37:50
talk about talk about club life all day
00:37:53
long and, you know, there's a there's a
00:37:56
law for for certain people and there's a
00:37:58
law for for other people, you know, and
00:38:01
I'm not going to go into that because
00:38:02
there's all there's all different they
00:38:04
have their own different different rules
00:38:06
and different laws and what they do, you
00:38:08
know, and like I say, you know, for me,
00:38:11
the club looked after me, you know, They
00:38:14
looked after my family. You know, this
00:38:16
was a decision that I had to make. A
00:38:18
decision to sit there and say, you know,
00:38:22
I give 100%. I couldn't give 100% to
00:38:24
them because my mental health, the dark
00:38:26
the the the darkness that I was in, my
00:38:30
mental health, my mom, my kids, I had to
00:38:32
put everything first. I had to put me
00:38:35
first, you know, this time. And I had to
00:38:38
do it. And I had to take that away so I
00:38:41
can, you know, focus on me and my family
00:38:43
and get get me better cuz I was in a
00:38:45
real bad place
00:38:46
>> when when you're when people message you
00:38:49
and you're not answering your phone and
00:38:51
and and it's for brothers that are
00:38:52
caring for you, you know, I'm I was real
00:38:55
good at doing that, like answering the
00:38:57
brothers and that. But I was in this
00:38:58
dark place, man. I was in this place
00:38:59
where, man, I can't I can't deal with
00:39:02
life at the moment. I can't be the
00:39:04
brother that I that I used to be and
00:39:07
give the brothers 100%. You know, and
00:39:10
that's what I I've always believed in.
00:39:12
You you do 100%. You know, and I'm
00:39:15
always thankful for those brothers that
00:39:19
that were there for me and some of them
00:39:21
are still here for me to to this day,
00:39:23
you know, that that message me and say,
00:39:25
"Hey, bro. we we like what you're doing
00:39:26
for our for our youth and our you know
00:39:29
and and made some big changes you know
00:39:31
and I can sit here and say I know all
00:39:33
different walks of life
00:39:35
>> you know I don't sit there and and and
00:39:37
talk you know what other people do and
00:39:39
stuff like that you know I talk about
00:39:41
change and I talk about you know if you
00:39:45
want to be in in you want to be in a
00:39:47
gang you don't want to be in a gang
00:39:49
that's cool I'm not there to tell you
00:39:50
you know it's it's it's a bad thing
00:39:52
don't go down that don't go down that
00:39:54
track because I know people are making
00:39:56
some massive changes, you know, that's
00:39:59
not me anymore,
00:40:00
>> you know. My my focus is on if people
00:40:03
want to make changes. Yeah, we can make
00:40:04
changes, we can make positive changes,
00:40:07
>> you know, and still still do what you're
00:40:10
doing, but do positive stuff, you know,
00:40:13
>> you know, and and looking after our
00:40:14
family and our kids.
00:40:19
>> Had you gone to Australia and never
00:40:21
joined the rebels, none of this would
00:40:23
have happened. the 501 stuff, the
00:40:24
incarceration. With that in mind, do you
00:40:27
regret joining?
00:40:28
>> No, I don't.
00:40:30
>> No, I don't. You know,
00:40:32
>> sometimes I blame myself for it. Yeah, I
00:40:34
got myself into it.
00:40:36
>> But I look at it and go, man, I didn't
00:40:38
do anything wrong. What did I do wrong?
00:40:41
I associated with some brothers, you
00:40:45
know. I didn't do a crime. I didn't do
00:40:48
jail, you know. I understand. Yeah. and
00:40:51
and and some of the boys that I was
00:40:53
locked up with, they done their time.
00:40:55
>> They done their time. You know, the club
00:40:57
changed them. You know, I had one
00:40:59
brother, he was he before he was in the
00:41:01
club, he was a drug addict, you know, it
00:41:04
cleaned them right up. He's back here in
00:41:06
New Zealand doing some good stuff,
00:41:08
>> you know. Um
00:41:12
when we sit there and and people ask me,
00:41:14
you know, did I regret it? And I don't
00:41:16
because that was part of my journey of
00:41:18
where I was going especially with the
00:41:20
traumas and and the people that I was
00:41:21
connected to you know but when
00:41:24
>> would you say like it gave you more than
00:41:26
it took away ultimately?
00:41:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know coming home and
00:41:32
sorting out my own stuff man you know um
00:41:37
realizing that okay that is part of my
00:41:40
journey. That's why I went down that
00:41:42
track because I didn't I didn't have the
00:41:45
life that every other person had, the
00:41:47
good life that people had. You know,
00:41:50
>> I I had um do you remember Brad Thorne,
00:41:53
you know, all black hard man, Bronco
00:41:55
star,
00:41:56
>> um very religious man. I had him on the
00:41:58
podcast sitting in the same chair as you
00:42:00
actually a couple of weeks ago and he
00:42:01
talked about finding God and finding his
00:42:03
partner and the phrase he used was he
00:42:05
had to get his house in order.
00:42:06
>> Yep. And I really like that. And I think
00:42:08
um like I mean there's there's going to
00:42:10
be a lot of people listening to this or
00:42:12
watching this that'll be very quick to
00:42:13
judge. Um but we've all got rooms in our
00:42:15
own internal houses that we need to get
00:42:17
in order. Nobody's perfect, right?
00:42:19
>> No one's perfect. You know, honestly,
00:42:20
man, if you if you sit there and I tell
00:42:23
a lot of our men that I
00:42:25
>> I talk to that um there's no there's no
00:42:28
perfect family,
00:42:29
>> you know. There's no person that can sit
00:42:31
there and go, "Oh, yeah. I've got the
00:42:32
perfect family." because there is
00:42:34
something in there that you know that
00:42:36
you have done and a lot of people ask me
00:42:38
the question too you know cuz a lot of
00:42:40
there's a few of our 501 brothers and
00:42:42
and and the the change makers you know
00:42:45
have turned to the Lord you know um
00:42:48
that's their thing and and a lot of the
00:42:51
brothers I hang around they have gone
00:42:52
that way but for me you know I didn't
00:42:54
need to go down that way you know I made
00:42:56
the I made the changes for me and who I
00:42:58
am you know
00:43:00
>> whatever helps e
00:43:01
>> yeah whatever helps you if it brings you
00:43:03
peace. Yeah. I've noticed you've got the
00:43:04
um the cross tattoo.
00:43:05
>> Yeah, that's my mom. That's for my mom.
00:43:07
Yeah, that's for my mom. You know, my
00:43:09
mom passed away 5 years ago. She um you
00:43:12
know, I had a good relationship with my
00:43:14
mom. I wish she was still here to
00:43:16
actually see you know uh where I am
00:43:19
today, what I've created, you know,
00:43:21
especially the boxing gym, man. That's a
00:43:24
a a massive thing for me and that's that
00:43:27
saved my life,
00:43:28
>> you know.
00:43:30
>> Yeah. This is such a cool part of your
00:43:31
story. We we haven't even got to I'm
00:43:33
just working through some stuff and
00:43:34
we're going to get to the good stuff.
00:43:35
It's like we're eating the vegetables,
00:43:36
then we'll get to the steak and the
00:43:38
dessert.
00:43:38
>> Um yeah. Is it um
00:43:42
>> Yeah. How is it reflecting on this
00:43:43
stuff? Like there's there's some crunchy
00:43:44
stuff and we've still got some crunchy
00:43:46
stuff to get to. Is it unpleasant to
00:43:48
revisit
00:43:49
>> like in a long form chat like this?
00:43:51
>> No, it's not. It's good. It helps me.
00:43:54
>> Yeah.
00:43:54
>> You know, it helps me where I am today.
00:43:57
you know, it shows me on my journey
00:44:00
where I'm at that, you know, we make
00:44:02
mistakes, we do [ __ ] things, you know,
00:44:05
and and and my mate, you know, that that
00:44:07
that, you know, I'm up here with um
00:44:10
being a youth worker, um you know,
00:44:12
Maxine, she said to me, and we always
00:44:14
have a conversation about we do [ __ ]
00:44:17
things, but we're not [ __ ] people. We're
00:44:19
not we're not [ __ ] humans, you know, and
00:44:21
when people do make mistakes and and do
00:44:24
those little fuckups, you know, we're
00:44:26
not [ __ ] people, you know.
00:44:28
>> So, we got to really look at that and
00:44:30
go, actually, you know, how do we fix
00:44:32
it? How do we change it? You know, so
00:44:35
and I think that brings a lot of our
00:44:36
people down too, thinking that we've
00:44:38
done something wrong. Hey, we look at
00:44:41
going, "Man, I must been a [ __ ] person,"
00:44:43
you know, but we weren't [ __ ] people. We
00:44:45
were just going through stuff,
00:44:47
>> you know. you also you you had a really
00:44:49
[ __ ] start in life. You got to cut
00:44:50
yourself some slack.
00:44:52
>> Yeah. And and that's that's what I'm
00:44:54
doing now, you know. And it wasn't for
00:44:56
my good mate um Sam. So if you don't
00:44:59
know Sam, he's from Road to Healing, Art
00:45:02
Roa. He's walked the country. I met him
00:45:06
two 3 years ago. Watched his podcast,
00:45:08
watched him live. Um he's, you know,
00:45:11
I've been I've I've biked to Nelson with
00:45:13
him. I've walked from I've done some
00:45:16
walking with him and the bike ride, man.
00:45:19
Like honestly, man, I just I met him and
00:45:21
I said, "Hey, bro. I really want to jump
00:45:23
on this bike ride with you." Uh we just
00:45:26
started chatting. I met him in real life
00:45:28
and we hang out for 4 days and he was
00:45:31
like super ADHD triple thousand. Um he's
00:45:36
he is the voice of our sexual violence,
00:45:41
our our people that are being sex
00:45:43
sexually abused and stuff like that.
00:45:45
Man, when you meet that fellow, man, I
00:45:46
met him come off come off the the the
00:45:50
plane, picked him up, man. And he was
00:45:52
just like ah like you know he's an ex
00:45:54
addict and stuff like that. I'm like man
00:45:55
this guy bro you still on it or what?
00:45:57
Are you still big bro? goes no
00:46:01
was out there and I took him out and
00:46:03
everyone was supposed to be a rider, you
00:46:05
know, he's just like but his just his w
00:46:08
his his passion and man honestly
00:46:12
the since I was 8 years old you know to
00:46:16
when I was 30 now what was it 40 42 you
00:46:21
know when I actually opened up more
00:46:22
about my abuse it was him
00:46:25
>> it was him I had to think and say
00:46:27
>> hey bro thank you. I'm a survivor now.
00:46:30
I'm not that victim. I'm not that young
00:46:32
boy that was a victim. And because of
00:46:35
you, bro, I'm a survivor now. And we
00:46:37
biked up the Nelson ripped up the funas,
00:46:40
bro. And honestly, we had we had um we
00:46:43
had the um electric bikes. And honestly,
00:46:48
man, like went up there, it was raining.
00:46:51
I was about to give up. He was just
00:46:54
going, "Come on, bro. Come on. We're
00:46:56
nearly there. We're nearly up the top.
00:46:57
We're nearly around the corner. I'm
00:46:58
like, "Bro, you never bike these
00:47:00
mountains before. You don't know where
00:47:01
the corner is. I know where the top of
00:47:02
the hill is."
00:47:03
>> And he's just going, "Bro, we're the
00:47:05
elite. No one else is going to do this.
00:47:07
No one else is going to push you, bro.
00:47:09
You know, you're a survivor, bro. You're
00:47:10
going to get to the top of the hill, and
00:47:12
we're going to make it, bro, because no
00:47:14
one else is going to do this except us,
00:47:16
you know." And we just he just he just
00:47:19
bypassed me. He was behind me. He biked
00:47:21
past me and here he is ADHD at the gate
00:47:25
and he's vaping blowing all his vape
00:47:28
making motorbike sounds and he goes,
00:47:30
"Brother, I got you. I got you or it's
00:47:32
just around the corner." Said, "Bro,
00:47:34
like I said, you don't know where the
00:47:35
corner is." And I knew where the corner
00:47:37
was, but I got up there. E. And he gave
00:47:40
me this massive hug, bro. And I said,
00:47:42
"You done it, bro. You nearly gave up,
00:47:45
but you you you you went through it. And
00:47:48
I just want to tell you, brother, that
00:47:50
you know, you come on this ride. I've
00:47:51
known you for 4 days and now you're just
00:47:54
a survivor, bro. You're a survivor of
00:47:55
sexual abuse. And I'll never,
00:47:59
you know, um I'm just grateful that he's
00:48:01
come into my life, you know, that he's
00:48:03
he is a voice for our people and stuff
00:48:06
like that. So,
00:48:08
>> yeah.
00:48:08
>> Well, as you are.
00:48:10
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:11
>> Okay. So, November 2015, you you've been
00:48:14
in Australia at 10 years by this point.
00:48:16
Y
00:48:16
>> um working as a carpet layer, raising
00:48:18
your family, but in your weekends, um
00:48:21
this extra extracurricular activity with
00:48:23
the Rebels Motorcycle Club.
00:48:25
>> I'm guessing you you you did some
00:48:27
illegal [ __ ] and you just didn't get
00:48:28
caught, some cocaine,
00:48:31
you had some gear perhaps.
00:48:33
>> No, no, I'm just cocaine. I'm I'm I'm
00:48:36
strictly that and that's it, you know?
00:48:38
>> Right. But but I'm and I'm not
00:48:39
minimizing that cuz it's an illegal
00:48:40
thing, but there's like a lot of As I
00:48:42
said, there's a lot of people at
00:48:43
Electric Avenue last weekend. Yeah.
00:48:45
doing doing cocaine or ketamine or
00:48:47
whatever. So,
00:48:48
>> I mean, it's um that's I feel that's
00:48:50
more of a health issue than a a crime
00:48:52
issue as long as you're not dealing.
00:48:53
>> Yeah. And and the thing is that
00:48:56
>> when you like I say, when you got
00:48:58
someone that's sitting up there that's
00:49:01
been a bully that's had a background of
00:49:03
corruption and all of a sudden all these
00:49:06
Kiwis get kicked out of Australia and
00:49:08
he's nowhere to be seen now. It's like,
00:49:11
man, when does this when does this when
00:49:12
does this stop? you know when does this
00:49:15
when does this you know when do the
00:49:17
changes you know happen you know and I
00:49:20
am seeing changes you know I'm seeing
00:49:23
changes over there that okay there are
00:49:26
people getting their visas back there
00:49:27
are people getting a second chance and
00:49:29
opportunity
00:49:31
>> and you know I talked a couple of 501's
00:49:33
on on on online and stuff like that cuz
00:49:35
allow phones and that in there now so
00:49:37
you you can have conversations and
00:49:39
detentions now we didn't we weren't
00:49:40
allowed them back then you know
00:49:42
>> and you sit there and and you know
00:49:43
they're live streaming and and you're
00:49:45
seeing the way they're getting treated
00:49:46
and stuff like that and how much they've
00:49:50
got to go through to get their visas
00:49:52
back. You know,
00:49:54
you know, I've seen a couple of couple
00:49:56
of my mates get their visas back and I'm
00:49:58
I'm happy for them, you know, but
00:50:01
why why do they get it back and then
00:50:04
another person doesn't, you know?
00:50:06
Where's the
00:50:07
>> where's the consistency? That's that's
00:50:09
what we're looking for. Consistency, you
00:50:11
know? Um, you know, back then Christmas
00:50:14
Island, man, Christmas Island was, man,
00:50:16
I've seen the the G's come back, the
00:50:18
OG's, you know, coming back that have
00:50:21
done some massive lags and coming back
00:50:23
from Christmas Island, man. Broken
00:50:25
>> the way they got treated, you know, and
00:50:28
um I I actually caught off the boys that
00:50:31
were in the first ride over there and
00:50:32
couple of my good mates now. And that's
00:50:34
when I got locked up just after they
00:50:36
done the ride over in Christmas Island.
00:50:38
And I met those boys and there was
00:50:40
reasons why they done it because the way
00:50:42
they got treated over there. You know,
00:50:44
>> you put out we sit there, you know,
00:50:47
Christmas Island wasn't built for Kiwis.
00:50:49
It was built for refugees,
00:50:51
>> you know. And as bad as it sounds, the
00:50:54
refugees were in mainstream, you know,
00:50:57
like Sydney, Perth, Yonga Hill, and all
00:50:59
that, those detention centers when our
00:51:01
Kiwis were shanghai over to Christmas
00:51:05
Island, treated bad,
00:51:07
>> real bad. You know, it wasn't built for
00:51:09
us. You know, once again, you're trying
00:51:12
to break you break, you know, families
00:51:16
because the only thing they had was
00:51:17
visits. You know,
00:51:18
>> you have people over in Brisbane that
00:51:19
are living over, you know, Shanghai to
00:51:21
Perth, taking taking away what was most
00:51:24
they wanted was just to see their
00:51:25
families. You know, some have already
00:51:26
done jail time and then they're getting
00:51:28
punished again, you know, sitting there
00:51:31
trying to fight for their fight for
00:51:32
their rights.
00:51:33
>> Yeah. It seems unnecessarily cruel.
00:51:35
>> Yeah.
00:51:35
>> Okay. So, November 2, 2015, 7:00 a.m.
00:51:39
>> 7 a.m.
00:51:40
>> Take us take us through that morning.
00:51:42
>> Ah. Um,
00:51:43
>> so you must have got up early. You're on
00:51:44
your way to work.
00:51:44
>> Yeah. On my way. I usually go to work
00:51:46
around 7:00. you know, traffic and me I
00:51:48
was just cruising along like just
00:51:50
cruising got about 500, you know, I'm
00:51:54
pretty nosy, you know, but I just
00:51:55
thought, hey, just in long day like,
00:51:57
nah, cool, man. I'm not going to, you
00:51:59
know, I got all these side streets and
00:52:00
didn't even bother looking down them all
00:52:02
being thing. So, I just drove off and
00:52:05
then yeah, like I said, I was talking to
00:52:07
um my my friend's Mrs. to make sure she
00:52:10
was right. There was no sound, no
00:52:12
nothing. And I just looked in the
00:52:14
rearview mirror. I just seen lights,
00:52:15
man. And they just come out of nowhere.
00:52:17
>> How many?
00:52:18
>> I reckon about
00:52:20
30 maybe. Um there was gang crime,
00:52:25
immigration, the feds, normal police. Um
00:52:30
you know, I got out of the car and they
00:52:32
sort of said, "Stay in the car." Said,
00:52:34
"Well, no, not really because I know why
00:52:36
he's here." And um they couldn't say
00:52:39
anything until immigration come over and
00:52:41
hand me the paper. So they hand me the
00:52:42
paper and said, "Are you lead to PU?"
00:52:44
And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "I will
00:52:45
cancel your revenge." I'm like, "Hey."
00:52:47
So they handcuffed me there. They took
00:52:49
actually took me back home. So one of
00:52:51
the cops drove my car home. And it was
00:52:53
that moment, man, when I I just had to,
00:52:56
you know, knock on the door. Family was
00:52:58
asleep and just tell my wife that, yeah,
00:53:02
they've cancelled my visa. And she knew
00:53:04
what was up because the whole, you know,
00:53:06
you could see it on the cameras and all
00:53:08
at my house. So it's just covered with
00:53:09
the police. And u my kids were still
00:53:12
asleep, you know. Um them being asleep,
00:53:16
you know. Uh yeah. And I just sort of
00:53:18
had to say, "Hey, just tell them I'm at
00:53:20
work." And um
00:53:23
>> you're at work for 2 years.
00:53:24
>> For work for 2 years, working away.
00:53:26
Yeah. You know,
00:53:27
>> how is how is your wife? Was she s was
00:53:29
she pissed with you or the police?
00:53:31
>> She was she was just shocked, I think.
00:53:32
Shocked. You know, and I told her to
00:53:34
ring certain people just to tell them,
00:53:37
you know. Um Yeah. You know what was the
00:53:41
killer the killer thing for me man was
00:53:43
it was peak hour in Perth the traffic
00:53:46
was [ __ ] and they put me in a cop car
00:53:49
like gang crime and like they took me
00:53:51
straight to prison Kazarina like
00:53:53
Kazarina's down south like it's for a
00:53:55
drive from where I am it's probably hour
00:53:57
and a half in the traffic so I had to
00:53:59
sit in the sitting there with these four
00:54:01
gang crime followers for an hour and a
00:54:03
half you know and it was real hard
00:54:06
because they didn't even know what was
00:54:07
going on you know I was trying to ask
00:54:10
him the questions this and that and I
00:54:11
was like man you know so nearly hour and
00:54:15
a half two hours and you know I thought
00:54:16
I was going to detention center and they
00:54:18
said no you're off to Kazarina I said
00:54:19
who the [ __ ] goes to Kazarina with no
00:54:21
criminal record they they didn't know
00:54:22
what was going on
00:54:23
>> is this the first prison experience in
00:54:25
your life
00:54:26
>> yeah I'm usually visiting the boys yeah
00:54:28
you know I'm usually visiting the boys
00:54:30
and you know always say wonder what's
00:54:32
like on the other side of the thing you
00:54:34
know always visit them and and stuff
00:54:35
like that so I got to see see the other
00:54:38
side of it and and I We didn't get put
00:54:40
in there normally like you know I had to
00:54:42
go through the system. They chucked me
00:54:44
in chuck me in in this yard or chuck me
00:54:47
in this um block where you know I was
00:54:51
locked up for nearly 24 hours you know
00:54:54
no like no nothing and then didn't know
00:54:56
what was going on. It was until the next
00:54:58
day when the other boys come in. So he
00:55:00
knew the you know he knew what was going
00:55:02
on and he said we can get get our phone
00:55:04
calls and stuff like that and went out
00:55:07
and then got got a bit of freedom. But
00:55:09
the freedom was you're in this long
00:55:11
[ __ ] cage walking up and down, you
00:55:14
know, locked up in this cage, you know,
00:55:16
like figuring what to go and the jud uh
00:55:18
the
00:55:19
>> the uh guards didn't know what to do
00:55:20
with us because we weren't in there for
00:55:22
a sentence. were there getting deported,
00:55:25
>> you know. So, we had to follow the
00:55:26
system. We had to, you know, be in the
00:55:30
system and and stuff like that. So, we
00:55:33
finally got moved into um to mainstream
00:55:36
with the other boys and a couple of boys
00:55:38
already been locked up there and even
00:55:40
they were just like, man, everyone was
00:55:42
just like, wow, what are you guys doing
00:55:44
here? Why why are you here? How come
00:55:46
he's under the detention center? We
00:55:48
didn't have the answers, you know. So, I
00:55:50
was there for 6 months. So I was only
00:55:53
there for 6 months, man. So
00:55:54
>> yeah.
00:55:55
>> Wait, you say only 6 months? That's half
00:55:56
a year, bro.
00:55:57
>> Yeah.
00:55:58
>> If if if that was me, I'd be Yeah. How
00:56:00
were you compliant or were you angry and
00:56:02
resistant?
00:56:03
>> No, I just just trying to I was And
00:56:06
that's the thing. We weren't in there to
00:56:08
to play up. You know, we're there to
00:56:09
get, you know, our visas back and let
00:56:12
people know that, man, you're chucking
00:56:14
people in prison for what? For getting
00:56:16
deported. Why? Why can't we go to the
00:56:18
detention center like everyone else?
00:56:20
Well, why can't we fight it outside like
00:56:21
everyone else? You know, two of us in
00:56:23
here have criminal records, you know.
00:56:24
All the other boys have done their time,
00:56:27
you know, but we've known boys that have
00:56:28
been out there with with um from their
00:56:31
lawyers, they can fight it out out there
00:56:33
and stuff like that. And I ended up at
00:56:35
Kazarina for 3 months and then they
00:56:37
shanged me down to Albany prison and
00:56:40
they got me a day before my wife's
00:56:42
birthday. So, my kids were coming in
00:56:45
just another way to break us, you know.
00:56:47
So, I got
00:56:47
>> You think it was intentional the time? I
00:56:49
think I think it was 6:00 in the morning
00:56:51
they you know shang eyed me down to
00:56:53
Albany prison and that was 6 hours out
00:56:55
of Perth. So I spent my last 3 months
00:56:57
there done that and then they grabbed me
00:57:00
again and said oh are you going to
00:57:01
detention center now? And they keep me
00:57:02
in Perth detention center. Perth
00:57:04
detention center. You only allowed 30 30
00:57:06
people there. I think 25 people there.
00:57:08
It was just for um transferring.
00:57:11
>> Yeah.
00:57:13
Were you treated differently to other
00:57:15
inmates because of the fact you're not
00:57:17
actually there for a
00:57:18
>> No, we had we had to we just followed
00:57:20
the system, you know, but a lot of the
00:57:22
other
00:57:22
>> No, no special treatment.
00:57:23
>> No, no special treatment. No, no special
00:57:25
treatment. We're we're all on high risk
00:57:27
as well. Like some of the high levels
00:57:29
and I'm like
00:57:31
>> high risk as yourself or n just for the
00:57:34
inmates, you know? Like how can we be
00:57:35
high risk when we're in here for
00:57:37
nothing? We're in here for your gang
00:57:38
connections, you know. And it and the
00:57:41
movements that we had to go through
00:57:42
were, you know, it was just the unreal,
00:57:46
you know.
00:57:49
>> How do you hang on to hope?
00:57:54
>> Oh, there was a there was a reason why
00:57:57
we done it. You know, there was we were
00:58:00
showing people that, you know, even
00:58:02
though we're in a club, you know, people
00:58:04
have done their time, but it had changed
00:58:07
them. But when you got a person like me
00:58:11
that's in there sitting in there because
00:58:13
of a wearing a patch and hanging off the
00:58:17
brothers
00:58:19
being locked up for nothing, you know,
00:58:21
getting taken away from his family and
00:58:23
getting locked up. A lot of people say,
00:58:25
"Yeah, you're a gang member, bad luck,
00:58:28
piss off sort of thing." But I had to
00:58:30
had to fight for that, you know. I had
00:58:33
to go I wanted to go all the way. I
00:58:35
didn't want to give up and say, "Okay,
00:58:37
fuck." You know, because I knew that was
00:58:39
an opportunity for us to open up some
00:58:40
doors for other people. And it did open
00:58:42
up doors. But then because the
00:58:45
government can do what they want and I I
00:58:48
went all the way went to the first
00:58:51
appearance judges were saying, "No,
00:58:54
we'll put it off." My lawyers, they were
00:58:56
doing the same thing. We said, "We don't
00:58:57
know what to do." So only place we go to
00:58:59
was the high court. We had to fight the
00:59:01
constitution of the law and we won it.
00:59:04
We won a court case
00:59:07
that tells him that you're actually
00:59:09
holding us, you know, wrongful and
00:59:12
holding us in in prison. You know, when
00:59:15
I think it was six to one, so six high
00:59:17
court judges deemed unconstitutional.
00:59:20
Okay. So that means that okay, that law
00:59:23
that you should let us go.
00:59:26
But who had the power?
00:59:28
Immigration minister. They already
00:59:29
planned it before we even got out. They,
00:59:31
you know, I won the court case. So I got
00:59:33
out, you know, and then straight away I
00:59:35
got flipped over again. That's how it
00:59:38
worked. I was like, now you got this
00:59:40
this immigration immigration minister
00:59:43
has got more power than
00:59:45
>> the high court judges. How does that
00:59:46
work?
00:59:47
>> How how do you stay composed? So you win
00:59:49
the court case and then you get um you
00:59:51
get scooped up again. Um yeah, how do
00:59:54
you how do you not snap? Uh, I was more
00:59:57
I was real excited because I knew it was
00:59:59
a massive win for us, you know, and then
01:00:02
I knew and I can remember this day
01:00:04
because I knew there was another court
01:00:06
case going on that there was another
01:00:07
court case going on with uh Manis Island
01:00:10
and the day before they just won a big
01:00:13
massive court case um over the
01:00:16
Australian government. And I thought,
01:00:16
"Oh, it's a good win." And then the next
01:00:19
day, we got a big win. And I'm and I'm
01:00:21
thinking, "Oh, yeah. Okay, now the
01:00:23
Australian government, I think they're
01:00:25
pretty pissed at us now because they've
01:00:26
lost two big court cases."
01:00:29
>> And um I was real excited, but it was
01:00:32
different because
01:00:35
every time I see someone get their visa
01:00:36
back, say goodbye to the boys, you know,
01:00:40
have a wash, have a feed, you know,
01:00:42
usually about half an hour to an hour
01:00:44
the boys get out. I jumped in the
01:00:46
shower. Next minute I got the guards
01:00:48
knocking on the door. Well, you got to
01:00:49
get out of the shower. You got to go get
01:00:50
your bags. Go sign out. I'm like, hey.
01:00:53
I'm just like, this is different. And
01:00:55
then a guy come say, "Come grab your
01:00:57
gear. All your gear's ready to go. Let's
01:00:59
grab your gear. Go." And I and I knew
01:01:01
something, man. This this is different.
01:01:04
And got there, got all my gear,
01:01:08
went out the gate, got out the doors,
01:01:09
had all my gear, got out the doors, and
01:01:12
then my wife just picked me up. And
01:01:14
justice just as jump in the car, two
01:01:16
immigration officers come in and go,
01:01:18
"Hey, can we talk to you for a second?"
01:01:20
I was like, "We" He goes, "Oh, can we go
01:01:22
inside and talk?" And I said, "What
01:01:24
for?" He goes, "Oh, we just need to talk
01:01:26
to you inside." I said, "You know, I
01:01:28
know why. I know. I know what's
01:01:30
happening." So I just like, "No." And I
01:01:32
go and I said, "Do I have to go in
01:01:33
there?" He goes, "No, you can do
01:01:35
whatever." I said, "Okay." So what I did
01:01:37
is I chose to go home.
01:01:38
>> So I went home and I I jumped in the
01:01:40
car, man. And [ __ ] my buzz just went
01:01:43
down because I knew what happened. What
01:01:45
they were trying to do is get me inside,
01:01:47
cancel my visa, and then I don't get to
01:01:50
go home.
01:01:51
>> So I ran my lawyer and I said to my
01:01:52
lawyer, I said, "Hey, they've asked me
01:01:54
all these question. What's going on?
01:01:56
Have they I asked the question, did they
01:01:57
cancel my visa?" He didn't know. So he I
01:02:01
think he rang up someone and he goes,
01:02:03
"Man, they've just turned your they just
01:02:05
cancelled your visa again." I said,
01:02:06
"What? In [ __ ] 40 minutes?" And he
01:02:09
goes, "Yeah, they've just thing." And I
01:02:10
said, "What do I do?" And he's like, "I
01:02:12
don't know." I said, "This is what I'm
01:02:14
going to do. I'm going to go home. I'm
01:02:16
going to go see my kids cuz I haven't
01:02:19
seen him for ages and I'm going to just
01:02:22
chill out with him." He goes, "Yeah, you
01:02:23
can do what you want to do." Okay,
01:02:25
that's up to you. I said, "Well, I'm not
01:02:26
going back there." And I knew what was
01:02:28
going to happen.
01:02:30
>> So then I end up going home. was at a
01:02:33
friend's place and um
01:02:36
yeah um I was there and my kids come
01:02:39
home my kids come home happy cry
01:02:46
and you know when um I had boys
01:02:47
messaging me and going hey bro good on
01:02:49
you we're going to come around have some
01:02:50
beers and I just like nah bro I just had
01:02:53
to tell them I said [ __ ] they canceled
01:02:54
my visa again and I was that happy to
01:02:57
see my kids and and and
01:03:00
just tell them that you
01:03:04
I wanted to tell them that things were
01:03:05
all right. I said we won, you know, that
01:03:08
it was hard. I had to tell them. I had
01:03:10
to tell them that um
01:03:12
yeah, they cancelled my visa again.
01:03:14
>> And just that emotion just Yeah. I don't
01:03:17
know if it was happy cries for them or
01:03:19
or or what, but for me it was it was
01:03:22
hard for me
01:03:23
>> because I knew I knew what's going to
01:03:25
happen.
01:03:27
>> Yeah. Probably like happy tears,
01:03:29
frustrated tears.
01:03:30
>> It was more
01:03:32
Yeah,
01:03:34
>> it was it was hard cuz I knew I just
01:03:36
wanted to see my kids
01:03:38
>> and just to see them happy but in that
01:03:41
time but after that that that emotion I
01:03:44
just had to say [ __ ] my visas have been
01:03:46
cancelled.
01:03:48
Um and I don't know what to do e I just
01:03:50
sat there man and just said [ __ ] what do
01:03:51
I do you know? So I stayed hidden not
01:03:55
hidden but at my friends our friends
01:03:56
place for for a while and then I got
01:03:59
into TV1. I I got onto the news and I
01:04:02
had to talk to them cuz they sort of
01:04:04
heard about what was going on and um I
01:04:07
just had to, you know, make a little bit
01:04:10
of noise and just let them know what was
01:04:11
going on. And um yeah, but I had to make
01:04:15
a decision that I'm not going to hide
01:04:17
and I think it was about 10:00 at night.
01:04:19
Decide to go home,
01:04:21
>> sit there. Uh I knew what was going to
01:04:24
happen and there was a couple of cars
01:04:26
floating around.
01:04:28
Didn't get much sleep. woke up real
01:04:29
early real early and then um yeah and
01:04:34
then I just sit there man and I knew
01:04:36
they're coming cuz there was car went
01:04:38
outside and there was cars sitting up on
01:04:39
my road I said okay and then next minute
01:04:42
I think it was about 8:00 in the morning
01:04:44
they come around the corner could see
01:04:46
them running around see them all on my
01:04:47
cameras shielded up gunned up oh gunned
01:04:51
up and um I used come to the door and
01:04:54
they just just doing their normal [ __ ]
01:04:57
they gang crime do and just coming in
01:04:59
over the top full effect with their guns
01:05:01
pointing at me. My kids were awake at
01:05:02
that time. My kids were just man they
01:05:05
threw me on the ground pointing guns at
01:05:07
me. One of my daughters Yeah. jumped
01:05:09
over and um said she said my dad's not a
01:05:12
bad person.
01:05:15
Yeah.
01:05:19
And she was only young, you know. It's
01:05:22
just that and and the cheekiest thing,
01:05:25
man, is like, man, honestly, bro, I was
01:05:28
I don't write in immigration. I didn't
01:05:29
play up. I didn't be a [ __ ] cuz I wasn't
01:05:31
there for that. I was there to get my
01:05:33
visa back and and stuff. And um
01:05:37
yeah, I call him a bit of a a cheeky
01:05:39
bastard because he I was on the ground
01:05:42
and the cops had the gun pointed and and
01:05:44
this this this peanut man, he just goes,
01:05:47
"Oh, here's your visa. You've canceled
01:05:49
your visa again." like, "Man, I've been
01:05:50
I've been locked up with you for nearly
01:05:52
2 years. Never play it up, followed the
01:05:55
rules, you know, and and stuff like
01:05:57
that, and you want to come in hard like
01:05:59
this and give me that?" And yeah, and
01:06:02
that was the thing, you know, pick me
01:06:05
up, gave my kids a hug, goodbye, and
01:06:08
then everything else changed when I went
01:06:10
back to tension. Everything was
01:06:11
different. I went back there, cops were
01:06:13
there, immigration were lined up. They
01:06:16
were lined up in this real massive line
01:06:19
of when you go into the gate and they
01:06:21
were just all standing there and I knew
01:06:23
half of them half the men had their
01:06:24
heads down because some of the guards in
01:06:26
there didn't know what to do with us and
01:06:29
some of those guards were actually good
01:06:31
to us and they were just shocked that I
01:06:33
come back and I had one one of the
01:06:34
guards come back she was crying and she
01:06:36
actually told the guards what the f are
01:06:39
you doing? Why are you treating him like
01:06:40
this? you know, and and to hear that
01:06:44
from this lady, you know, cut their job
01:06:46
and I think I think it was about six of
01:06:49
them. Six of them threw their jobs and
01:06:51
after that they messaged me a while ago.
01:06:53
They threw their job. One of them passed
01:06:55
away. She was, you know, she was a cool
01:06:58
man. She passed away about 3 years ago
01:07:00
with cancer. She was one that um that
01:07:04
yelled and screamed, "Why are you
01:07:05
treating him like this? He hasn't done
01:07:06
anything wrong."
01:07:07
>> It was just a just it was just
01:07:09
different. these guards and how they
01:07:11
were working and
01:07:13
um yeah and I knew, okay, I've got to
01:07:17
sign the papers. I was wearing my lawyer
01:07:20
and and he's like, man, what do we do?
01:07:22
He's like, we can't do anything because
01:07:23
it's just going to keep changing it.
01:07:25
Every time we fight this, they're going
01:07:26
to go, yep, cancel, cancel, cancel. So,
01:07:29
I had to sign because I know what's
01:07:30
going to happen next.
01:07:31
>> I sign the papers just to leave
01:07:33
Australia. Yeah, leave Austral,
01:07:39
the media is out, they're going to
01:07:43
um put me somewhere else, either send me
01:07:46
over to Sydney, send me to Christmas
01:07:48
Island or whatever, you know, cuz I stay
01:07:50
I stayed in Perth for
01:07:52
>> it. It wasn't, you know, not much people
01:07:54
stayed there, but I got to stay there
01:07:56
>> and that was actually worse, man.
01:07:57
Honestly, detention is worse than
01:07:59
prison.
01:07:59
>> Really? How? So what what other
01:08:02
surprises like you you've never been in
01:08:04
jail before before this. Um what is the
01:08:06
expectation versus reality for prison
01:08:08
and detention?
01:08:09
>> Well at least jail you can go get locked
01:08:11
away for the night and things are good.
01:08:12
It's 24 hours. Perth detention center is
01:08:15
only small.
01:08:16
>> You know like I say I wasn't there to
01:08:18
fire people. wasn't there to start
01:08:20
things cuz that just falls bad on us,
01:08:22
you know, on one side you got, you know,
01:08:23
you got your pedophiles on one side, you
01:08:26
know, walking around like normal, you
01:08:28
know, just thinking far, you know, and
01:08:30
then you've got all these other people
01:08:32
with serious criminal records and stuff
01:08:34
like that and you can see who gets their
01:08:36
visas back and it's just it's real hard
01:08:39
to see these fells get them. I seen I've
01:08:41
seen a pedophile get his visa back. I'm
01:08:42
like, how how does how does that work?
01:08:45
you know, here you've put him back out
01:08:47
on a on a bridging visa. You put him out
01:08:49
there on a bridging visa where no one
01:08:51
can get, you know, and here I am sitting
01:08:55
and other people are sitting um getting
01:08:58
deported, you know. It was real hard,
01:09:00
you know.
01:09:01
>> Honestly, man, when you're in jail, Yep.
01:09:03
you get locked away, you have that time
01:09:04
away. Not at detention centers, man.
01:09:07
I've seen people slice themselves, you
01:09:09
know. I've been asked by by someone,
01:09:12
"Can you help me kill myself?" That was
01:09:14
the hardest bit, man. That and um for
01:09:18
him to come and say, "I can't go. I
01:09:20
can't be deported. I can't because I
01:09:23
won't have my kids." You know, I've seen
01:09:25
seen brothers reading, you know, on the
01:09:28
phone cuz you're allowed the phones, but
01:09:29
you're not allowed. You allowed the the
01:09:31
the film ones, the the ones with the
01:09:33
cameras,
01:09:34
>> and brothers are sitting there reading
01:09:36
stories to their kids, crying and and
01:09:38
asking them, you know, "Dad, when are
01:09:40
you coming home?" you know, while this
01:09:42
is all happening, you know, in the
01:09:43
background, you got the refugees that
01:09:44
are in there, you know, slicing them,
01:09:47
lighting themselves on fire, you know,
01:09:49
to get their visas back. And one of the
01:09:52
things mostly was 501's and refugees
01:09:55
didn't get on that well. You know,
01:09:57
refugees would use 501's to get their
01:09:59
visas back.
01:10:01
>> You know, getting blamed for I'm not
01:10:02
safe here. He's a 501, he wants to get
01:10:04
me high. I want my visa back. This,
01:10:06
this, and that. And who gets Shanghai to
01:10:08
Christmas Island? Not not them.
01:10:11
>> Us Kiwis get Shanghai to Christmas
01:10:14
Island once again. A place that is not
01:10:16
for us, you know. So that was that is
01:10:19
the difference, you know. Unless you can
01:10:22
go away and and have that break
01:10:25
tensions, man. There's there's no break.
01:10:27
It's 24 hours, you know. And that was
01:10:29
then. I don't know what it's like now,
01:10:30
but that's what it was back then, you
01:10:32
know.
01:10:33
>> Just in that one answer, Lee, you
01:10:35
mentioned some disturbing stuff. You
01:10:37
mentioned um people slicing themselves.
01:10:39
someone setting themselves on fire,
01:10:40
someone asking you to help him take his
01:10:42
own life. What What does that do to a
01:10:46
person
01:10:47
>> mentally?
01:10:48
>> Yeah.
01:10:48
>> Uh
01:10:50
>> how do you get through that?
01:10:53
>> Like I said, it is hard because there's
01:10:56
one reason why I'm there and that's for
01:10:58
me. That's for me to get my visa back,
01:11:02
you know. And here I am doing it in in
01:11:05
in this environment,
01:11:08
you know, and and just seeing people,
01:11:10
you know, especially our own people
01:11:12
there, you know, doing that stuff. And
01:11:14
most of all was to go to, you know,
01:11:15
Christmas Island. They didn't want to go
01:11:16
to Christmas Island, you know.
01:11:19
>> I can remember, you know, remember one
01:11:21
visit, one of my real close mates, man,
01:11:22
he wanted to see his daughter hadn't
01:11:23
seen it for ages. Next minute I sprung
01:11:25
on him. You going to Christmas Island?
01:11:27
Said, "But I got to visit my daughter."
01:11:28
No, you don't.
01:11:29
>> You're going to Christmas Island. What
01:11:31
is that going to do to your mental
01:11:32
health? M
01:11:33
>> you know he just turned you know walked
01:11:36
around the thing metal bar and I had to
01:11:39
talk to him and said he and he listens
01:11:41
all the time but it was this moment
01:11:42
where he just said to me he goes bro I'm
01:11:44
not going I'm not going there I want to
01:11:46
see my daughter I will just smash anyone
01:11:49
this and that you know the the the
01:11:52
mental the mental stuff of how they can
01:11:55
just do that how they can just send our
01:11:57
people to an island that was not built
01:11:59
for us
01:12:01
>> what it is it's it's It's it's torture
01:12:02
and torment in a way, isn't it? It's
01:12:04
trying to break you.
01:12:05
>> Yeah. Break him. And that's all he
01:12:06
wanted to do. All he wanted to do was
01:12:08
see his daughter, get to see his
01:12:09
daughter
01:12:10
>> before anything else happened. And he
01:12:12
didn't get that. And he just he just
01:12:13
flipped.
01:12:14
>> And he was real humbled person. And that
01:12:18
sort of um you know, the well-being of
01:12:21
of up here, you know, can do that to
01:12:23
you, you know,
01:12:25
>> especially you haven't seen your your
01:12:26
father or your your your kids and that
01:12:28
for ages, you know.
01:12:32
uh this the stuff that your um kids
01:12:34
experienced like seeing you know seeing
01:12:36
armed cops storm in your house and you
01:12:38
know take you away at gunpoint. Um is it
01:12:41
something you've discussed as a family
01:12:42
like what sort of impact did it have on
01:12:43
them?
01:12:45
Yeah, we have, you know, the hardest
01:12:47
thing for my, you know, obviously my
01:12:49
kids, you know, to my wife was, um, they
01:12:51
were born up in Aussie,
01:12:53
>> you know, they they did have a good
01:12:55
life, you know, just to see, you know,
01:12:59
their dad being treated like that. Um,
01:13:01
was hard for them. It was hard for them
01:13:02
to settle back here in New Zealand
01:13:03
because they didn't know New Zealand,
01:13:06
>> you know. So, um,
01:13:09
yeah, it it it was hard for them. Um,
01:13:12
like I say, we talk about um the thing
01:13:16
the things is is real funny that um a
01:13:19
lot of people say that gang members and
01:13:22
and bikes and people that do bad things
01:13:25
that their kids are going to be bad.
01:13:27
Their kids are going to turn up them and
01:13:28
stuff like that. I know heaps of
01:13:30
brothers out there, man. They got, you
01:13:32
know, kids out there doing great things,
01:13:34
you know, playing good sports and stuff
01:13:37
like that. You know, when we have those
01:13:39
conversations about, oh, your dad's a a
01:13:41
bike, you gang b, you know, all this
01:13:43
stuff. The kids going to be bad and this
01:13:45
and that. And it's not like that. You
01:13:47
know, I see a lot of people's and and my
01:13:49
kids are doing good things. They've got
01:13:50
a good life now, you know, good
01:13:52
education. They've had a good education.
01:13:54
They're all working and stuff like that,
01:13:57
you know. So,
01:13:59
um, yeah. And the funny thing is Perth
01:14:03
is home to to my kids, you know. um
01:14:08
you know they are couple of them are
01:14:10
moving back there because that's all I
01:14:12
know is they're going to go back there
01:14:14
and give it another a try. I'm not there
01:14:16
to say, man, what what what why the [ __ ]
01:14:18
you want to go back there for? Look what
01:14:19
they done. You know,
01:14:21
>> but that's where they they want to go
01:14:22
back to. So,
01:14:24
>> I'm not going to stop that, you know.
01:14:25
End of the day, they can go back there
01:14:26
and and do what they want to do,
01:14:28
>> you know. So, yeah, it was hard for them
01:14:31
at that time,
01:14:32
>> you know, and and stuff like that. But I
01:14:35
think um seeing where I'm at today and
01:14:38
what I've got through, you know. Yeah.
01:14:42
>> [ __ ] mate. this this uh I mean you've
01:14:44
made it clear during this chat this this
01:14:46
gang it gave you a lot but it took it
01:14:48
cost a lot as well.
01:14:49
>> Yeah.
01:14:50
>> Came at a heavy price.
01:14:51
>> Yeah. It came at a heavy price but that
01:14:53
was me. That was my that was my I'm not
01:14:56
here going to sit here and and blame the
01:14:59
boys and this and that because like I
01:15:01
say they fully supported me.
01:15:04
>> You know they they had my back when I
01:15:07
was going through and all the other boys
01:15:08
going through the court system fighting
01:15:11
the fight with us. you know, um, and
01:15:14
stuff like that, you know, it was my
01:15:17
decision. I made that decision and end
01:15:20
of the day, that's that's on me,
01:15:22
>> you know. And yeah,
01:15:23
>> I think this is something that a lot of
01:15:25
people, myself included, like just can't
01:15:26
completely understand, you know. It's um
01:15:28
it's it's um it's a a thicker
01:15:31
relationship than family. It's people
01:15:32
that never turn their back on you.
01:15:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and like it
01:15:37
was probably one of the hardest things
01:15:38
because that's all I knew,
01:15:40
>> you know. All I knew was those brothers.
01:15:43
>> Yeah.
01:15:43
>> You know, but like I say, man, I
01:15:47
>> mental health, man. Really, really got
01:15:50
me.
01:15:52
>> Yeah.
01:15:53
>> If this part of the podcast got turned
01:15:54
into like a little Tik Tok or something.
01:15:58
I can imagine the comments underneath
01:15:59
it'll be like, "Oh, well, moral of the
01:16:01
story, don't join a gang, kids, or play
01:16:03
stupid games, win stupid prizes." Choose
01:16:06
your friends wisely. What would you say?
01:16:08
>> Oh, just laugh. You know, I get comments
01:16:10
all the time when people, you know, you
01:16:12
see it all on social media, see it in
01:16:14
the papers, people going to put their
01:16:15
comments, you know, for me, I really
01:16:17
don't care,
01:16:18
>> you know. I'm doing me. It's part of my
01:16:20
life, part of my journey, you know. Um,
01:16:24
yeah, people can say what they want to
01:16:26
say,
01:16:27
>> you know. And it's funny, too, because
01:16:29
end of the day, people will sit sit sit
01:16:31
on their computers and and and
01:16:34
do all their [ __ ] comments and that,
01:16:36
but they probably got [ __ ] going on
01:16:37
their lives as well,
01:16:38
>> mate. everyone has,
01:16:39
>> you know, so they can sit there and
01:16:40
whatever, you know. Um, and you know,
01:16:43
for me it's it's
01:16:47
at the moment it's growth now. I've
01:16:49
learned, you know, I've made decisions,
01:16:51
you know, I've made bad decisions in my
01:16:53
life and I don't think, you know, join
01:16:57
the brothers that I joined that it was
01:16:59
uh, you know, a bad decision, you know,
01:17:01
because I seen the brotherhood. when
01:17:03
you're going through what I've been
01:17:05
through and that's all you know and who
01:17:07
you can trust. Okay, that's a decision
01:17:09
that I made,
01:17:11
>> you know, and um like I say, I don't I
01:17:14
don't go out, man, and and and talk club
01:17:18
life anymore, you know, 100% I respect.
01:17:21
You got people out there that want to
01:17:23
[ __ ] talk [ __ ] and, you know, tell
01:17:26
tell whatever you want to tell. And it's
01:17:28
like, man, that's not your place
01:17:30
anymore, you know? I mean, some of these
01:17:31
fell probably got booted out and
01:17:33
probably on the [ __ ] gear or whatever
01:17:35
like that and blame everyone else, but
01:17:37
actually it's your own fault, you know,
01:17:40
but you're not in that lifestyle. Leave
01:17:42
it alone, you know.
01:17:43
>> Oh, you just made a comment there. Is
01:17:45
that potentially something you'd get
01:17:46
booted out for if you if you got an
01:17:48
issue with the gear?
01:17:49
>> Well, it's it's it's one of their rules,
01:17:51
you know, in some of these clubs, you
01:17:52
know,
01:17:54
>> and I've seen some boys, but end of the
01:17:56
day, that's your decision that you do.
01:17:58
Hey,
01:17:59
>> you know, and believe it there,
01:18:01
>> you know, stay out of that world. That's
01:18:03
not your world anymore.
01:18:05
>> Yeah.
01:18:05
>> You know, and that's what I do. My world
01:18:07
here now is being a voice for our
01:18:11
being a voice for our men that are in
01:18:12
the dark times, you know, making those
01:18:15
changes. You know, a lot of our our and
01:18:18
we'll talk about what I do at the at my
01:18:20
at my job I do now. They're gang
01:18:23
families. You know, it's generational.
01:18:24
I'm not there to tell them, "Hey,
01:18:25
>> yeah,
01:18:26
>> get out." You know, that's that's not my
01:18:29
job to tell them that.
01:18:31
>> You know, my my job is to give them
01:18:33
opportunities, make some changes, get
01:18:35
them a job wherever they need. You know,
01:18:37
we've got a lot of our out there that
01:18:39
some of their parents are finding it
01:18:41
real hard to show up
01:18:42
>> for themselves. if they can't show for
01:18:44
themselves. how are they going to show
01:18:46
their so that's when we come into that
01:18:48
space as youth workers and come in and
01:18:50
go hey we're here to help you and give
01:18:53
you opportunities and give you the tools
01:18:56
and if the parents want the tools too
01:18:58
we'll give them the tools to help them
01:18:59
you know and not judge you know
01:19:01
>> I promise we're getting we're into the
01:19:03
really good stuff one more card and then
01:19:04
I've got a card called boxing and
01:19:06
purpose
01:19:06
>> okay cool yeah
01:19:09
>> you must be like this this chance a
01:19:11
stitch up
01:19:13
>> yeah how we've been going like an hour
01:19:15
20. How you feeling?
01:19:16
>> No, all good. Yeah. Well, yeah. No, it's
01:19:18
it's all good. You know, it's um
01:19:20
>> I've noticed you get emotional a couple
01:19:21
of times. Eh,
01:19:22
>> yeah.
01:19:22
>> Shows how much you care.
01:19:23
>> I do. And um I thought it, you know,
01:19:26
Yeah. I thought it'd be sort of past
01:19:28
that, but it it does, you know,
01:19:31
especially when you talked about the
01:19:33
childhood,
01:19:35
>> you know, I sit there with people and
01:19:37
go, "Oh, yeah, my childhood. I would
01:19:39
have done this and remember this and da
01:19:40
da da da da." you know, for me, I I
01:19:44
can't remember, you know, fully on on my
01:19:47
childhood. I can't remember. I can't
01:19:49
store things in in my head. And and it's
01:19:52
quite funny because,
01:19:55
you know, I'm I don't write stuff down.
01:19:58
I can do things and, you know, I've done
01:20:00
some big events and I've never written
01:20:03
them down. I've just I just it just
01:20:06
comes out of my head and I just go with
01:20:07
it. And um that's one thing I've found
01:20:11
real hard. You know, I even talked to my
01:20:12
counselor about it, you know, about
01:20:13
dreaming. I don't hardly dream ever. I
01:20:15
don't have dreams. You know, when we
01:20:17
talk about dreams, people ask me, "What
01:20:18
do you dream about, you know?" I was
01:20:20
like, "Fuck, I don't know." You know, I
01:20:22
don't know what to dream about cuz I
01:20:23
don't I don't dream, you know. But like
01:20:26
I say, when people see me in the space
01:20:28
with my
01:20:30
people look at me and go, "Yeah, you're
01:20:31
serious. You're grumpy." Yeah. Like they
01:20:35
do that. They come past and whack me on
01:20:37
the head and, you know, call me all
01:20:38
these names and I'm laughing with them.
01:20:40
But, you know, I think it's I found who
01:20:43
I am now. I want to be that that young
01:20:45
fellow.
01:20:46
>> Yeah.
01:20:46
>> I want to bring the inner boy, the the
01:20:49
the kid I am today that I wasn't when I
01:20:52
was 8 years old,
01:20:53
>> you know, and that was from all the hard
01:20:55
work I've done to arm mask all the hate,
01:20:58
all the darkness, all the anger, you
01:21:02
know, and stuff like that. and actually
01:21:03
find out actually now I can enjoy myself
01:21:06
through these young lang
01:21:08
and enjoy being funny and and and stuff
01:21:11
like that and spending that time with
01:21:14
them enjoying that because I didn't have
01:21:16
that when I was younger.
01:21:17
>> There used to be a massive I don't know
01:21:19
if you remember this this may have been
01:21:20
when you were in Australia but there
01:21:21
used to be a massive ad campaign here in
01:21:23
New Zealand called break the cycle.
01:21:25
>> Why is it so hard to break the cycle?
01:21:28
>> I know there's that saying hurt people
01:21:30
hurt people. What
01:21:32
>> people I think sometimes people hear
01:21:35
sometimes people are are scared to break
01:21:37
the cycle.
01:21:38
>> Some people think
01:21:41
you know breaking the cycle is hard you
01:21:44
know breaking the cycle is weak you know
01:21:47
um
01:21:49
you know I got brothers out there man
01:21:51
that have broken massive cycles for
01:21:53
themselves
01:21:55
you know um
01:21:56
>> you have
01:21:57
>> yeah yeah I have. Yeah. And like I say,
01:22:01
we talk about making changes in our
01:22:03
lives and and being a change maker, you
01:22:06
know. Um, and that's what what we are.
01:22:10
We're just trying to make changes in our
01:22:11
lives
01:22:12
>> and be, you know, change makers for
01:22:14
other people, you know. Um, yeah.
01:22:19
>> Well, a lot of people would go, um,
01:22:21
well, you know, you didn't like being
01:22:23
treated that way when you were young.
01:22:25
Like, surely it's easy just to go in the
01:22:27
opposite direction. But it's not as
01:22:28
simple as that, is it? It's very
01:22:29
complex.
01:22:30
>> It's It is. It is complex. Like I say,
01:22:32
we got so much going on inside
01:22:34
ourselves.
01:22:35
>> Um, you know, you've got to you've got
01:22:38
to dig deep. You've got to look and
01:22:40
you've got to look in that mirror, look
01:22:43
at the changes, and say to yourself, are
01:22:45
you ready? Are you ready to change? You
01:22:48
know, some people are just [ __ ] too
01:22:49
scared to say that.
01:22:51
>> Do you love yourself? Do you love, you
01:22:53
know, can you look in the mirror and
01:22:55
say, "Fuck, actually, you know, and when
01:22:59
I started this journey, when I was in
01:23:01
the [ __ ] dark place, when I started
01:23:03
the obviously the boxing, it was the
01:23:06
mirror that changed me. Honestly, bro,
01:23:08
it changed me. I looked in there and I
01:23:10
[ __ ] I've always had people behind me
01:23:12
supporting me, especially the brothers
01:23:14
and my friends and this and that. But
01:23:16
when we change our life, I looked in
01:23:18
that mirror, man, I just [ __ ] about
01:23:20
to hit a bag. I looked in the mirror.
01:23:22
The mirror was just in the spot and I
01:23:23
looked at it and go, "Fuck." Actually,
01:23:25
who the [ __ ] behind me?
01:23:27
>> There's no one behind me. Who's going to
01:23:29
help me? No one's going to help you,
01:23:30
bro. Cuz you know why? Cuz you can only
01:23:33
help yourself. Hey, you look at those
01:23:35
things and goes, I can give you all the
01:23:37
talks in the world you want. But if you
01:23:40
can't do it yourself, no one's going to
01:23:41
do it for you. Hey, and that mirror man
01:23:44
just changed my whole life of his
01:23:46
perspective of [ __ ] who the [ __ ] is
01:23:48
with you? Who's going to support you?
01:23:50
Who's going to go through here with you?
01:23:52
And it's only me, man. I'm going to do
01:23:54
it myself. And it's going to be hard,
01:23:56
>> you know. It's going to be a it's going
01:23:57
to be a ride.
01:23:59
>> Hey, you know,
01:24:00
>> yeah, there's a there's um there's a
01:24:02
famous poem. I I can't remember it
01:24:03
completely, but people can look it up
01:24:04
called um the man in the mirror or the
01:24:06
man in the glass.
01:24:07
>> Um and it's about like Yeah. When
01:24:09
>> I used to be my favorite song, man in
01:24:10
the mirror.
01:24:10
>> Oh, no. Not the
01:24:13
neck and chain.
01:24:16
>> Different.
01:24:17
>> Yeah.
01:24:18
>> No, the man. It's called the man in the
01:24:19
mirror. The man in the glass. And it
01:24:20
just just talks about how like the the
01:24:22
the you know the person staring back at
01:24:24
you knows everything and you can't lie
01:24:26
to that person. How long were you um
01:24:29
saying you you loved you loved yourself
01:24:31
in the mirror before you actually
01:24:32
believed that?
01:24:33
>> It took a few goes, bro.
01:24:35
>> Yeah, it took a few goes. It took a lot
01:24:37
of a lot of um connect connecting with
01:24:41
other brothers, you know, um hearing
01:24:45
their stories, you know, hearing their
01:24:48
changes in their lives and and looking
01:24:49
in on themselves and and saying, "Man,
01:24:52
if if we want to make changes, we got to
01:24:54
make changes with ourselves. We can't be
01:24:56
out there talking [ __ ] when we haven't
01:24:58
sort our own [ __ ] out." You know,
01:25:00
there's so many people out there that
01:25:01
can that are are talking all the stuff,
01:25:03
but they haven't actually told
01:25:04
themselves that they love themselves or
01:25:06
they they haven't found, you know,
01:25:09
healing, you know, and finding that
01:25:11
purpose and, you know,
01:25:13
>> why and and when we talk to,
01:25:16
they can smell [ __ ]
01:25:18
>> They can smell true, you know, or they
01:25:21
can smell persons that actually, no,
01:25:23
you're actually just talking [ __ ] man.
01:25:25
>> You know, I can see it. You're not real,
01:25:28
>> you know. So, and I learn I learn off
01:25:30
all those, you know, I learn off
01:25:31
everyone, you know, but being around,
01:25:34
you know, there certain people that I've
01:25:35
been around, man. Matt Brown's one of
01:25:37
them, you know, Matt Brown. My brother
01:25:39
Jordan from Tawa Foundation and got him.
01:25:42
My brother Dave from the Felon Show,
01:25:44
he's called the Felon Show. He does um
01:25:46
he does the Fresh Start. He's a 501 man.
01:25:49
He he's just beautiful, you know. We we
01:25:52
talk about struggles and stuff like
01:25:54
that. And I got heaps of brothers that
01:25:56
that have shown me the path of actually,
01:25:59
bro, we need to love ourselves first cuz
01:26:01
if we don't, we can't we can't carry on
01:26:03
with this journey of change.
01:26:05
>> Yeah.
01:26:06
>> You know,
01:26:09
>> so you end up giving giving up the
01:26:11
flight in Australia and surrendering.
01:26:14
Then then what happens? Are you allowed
01:26:16
to you allowed to leave with your family
01:26:17
on your own free will or
01:26:19
>> I got escorted back? Yeah. I had a
01:26:21
couple of guards. They escorted me back.
01:26:23
>> Right. with other 501s or
01:26:25
>> n I come back on the plane by myself.
01:26:26
>> Just you and just me and two guards.
01:26:28
>> Are you are you ced on the plane or are
01:26:30
you not?
01:26:30
>> No, they were actually all right
01:26:31
actually. Um
01:26:32
>> cuz I saw some footage on the news here
01:26:34
at um I don't know in between you being
01:26:37
deported and now and that was looked
01:26:39
like Cona.
01:26:40
>> Yeah.
01:26:41
>> Like she's just a bunch of Kiwis being
01:26:43
sort of marched onto the
01:26:45
>> Yeah. Look at that man. I think that was
01:26:46
just more of a look at Yeah. Look at
01:26:48
look at me, look at us, you know, and
01:26:50
>> flex
01:26:51
>> pretty much a flex, you know. And um for
01:26:54
me, I come back and I had to go through
01:26:57
the [ __ ] system, you know. They
01:26:59
really treating me as, yeah, you're
01:27:00
going to have conditions, you're going
01:27:01
to do this, this, and that. I'm pretty
01:27:03
much like, [ __ ] I am. I'm not doing
01:27:05
that because end of the day, I'd never
01:27:08
been to jail. I don't have a criminal
01:27:09
record, you know, just cuz I'm, you
01:27:12
know, club affiliated that you're going
01:27:13
to tell me, give me these rules, you
01:27:16
know. So I stood there for about half an
01:27:18
hour to an hour telling these fellows
01:27:19
they want to do all these big searches.
01:27:21
I said see you later you can't do that.
01:27:24
So I got to walk out you know.
01:27:26
>> So and then what what does day one in
01:27:28
New Zealand look like?
01:27:29
>> Day one for me it was a little bit
01:27:30
different because media was here. Um you
01:27:34
know a lot of people wanted to hear the
01:27:36
story and and and I told them the story
01:27:38
but um first day was you know I was in
01:27:42
the club so couple of boys picked me up.
01:27:45
Is is there a Rebels motorcycle club in
01:27:47
New Zealand or like a chapter here?
01:27:50
>> There is they're worldwide. But
01:27:52
>> the end of the day, like I say, I've
01:27:53
been away from that that lifestyle for
01:27:56
>> for so long. So, um, you know, my my
01:28:00
focus isn't is not on what happens in
01:28:03
New Zealand with the clubs anymore.
01:28:04
>> Yeah.
01:28:05
>> Um, so yeah, I focus on on on the stuff
01:28:08
that I do now. Like I say, I got out
01:28:10
seven. They gave me seven days. 7 days
01:28:12
and 500 bucks to survive for two weeks,
01:28:16
you know. So, I I used the used the two
01:28:19
weeks up and then I went back down to
01:28:21
Christ Church close to my family. My
01:28:23
family was still over in over in um
01:28:25
Aussie trying to get rid of their stuff
01:28:26
and you know and and getting them
01:28:29
sorted. So, I had to come back to
01:28:31
reality and and haven't been working for
01:28:33
2 years. So, it was pretty hard
01:28:35
>> get back into then. I just wanted to get
01:28:36
back into work. um you know get all that
01:28:40
and get my family back and then you know
01:28:42
try to get back into club life but like
01:28:44
I say I was just my mental health was
01:28:47
was kind wasn't in a good place.
01:28:50
>> So you go pretty much straight back to
01:28:51
Blenham.
01:28:52
>> No I went to Cross. Yeah. Went there cuz
01:28:54
my dad and my family there.
01:28:55
>> So I went back there for a while and
01:28:58
>> hung out there for a while. Um
01:29:00
>> did you manage to find a job reasonably
01:29:02
quickly as a carpet layer?
01:29:03
>> Oh man. Uh I honestly I went to Christ
01:29:05
Church. lucky I had a couple mates down
01:29:07
there that wanted to work but I had to
01:29:09
sign up for job seekers or the benefit
01:29:12
whatever it was man that was that was
01:29:14
hard for me to do because of I've worked
01:29:16
most of my life and I went in there and
01:29:18
I could still remember the fellow man
01:29:19
like
01:29:21
no wonder some of our our 501's get
01:29:23
pissed off when they come back here they
01:29:25
get looked down on looked down on upon
01:29:27
and stuff like I just sitting there with
01:29:28
this fell pink shirt on hoy toy and he's
01:29:33
sort of talking down to me like you know
01:29:35
I didn't have any quality ifications and
01:29:37
he said, "Oh, you know, you're back
01:29:38
here. What do you what what's your thing
01:29:41
and what do you want to do when you get
01:29:42
back here?" And I said, "Actually, I'm
01:29:43
only coming here because the lady that
01:29:45
was beside me through PAS said I had to
01:29:47
come and sign up for the benefit just
01:29:49
cuz to get some money behind me and he
01:29:52
asked me what I done." I said, "I'm a
01:29:53
qualified car player." And then his
01:29:54
whole attitude changed
01:29:56
>> thinking, "Oh, actually, oh, you have a
01:29:57
trade behind you this and that." You
01:29:59
know, so his whole attitude changed on
01:30:02
who I was and what I do, you know. Um,
01:30:05
>> oh,
01:30:05
>> he just assumed you Yeah. He assumed,
01:30:08
you know, 501, you know, coming back to
01:30:10
this and that. It's just the way he he
01:30:12
held himself,
01:30:13
>> you know, and and making people feel
01:30:15
uncomfortable. And so I just, yeah,
01:30:18
said, I'm here. This lady wants me to
01:30:19
get on the benefit. I'm actually a car
01:30:21
player, you know, and I think I got one
01:30:24
payment from the one payment from the
01:30:26
benefit and my mate helped me. I started
01:30:28
caring again. So
01:30:30
>> um I was only in Christ Church for 3
01:30:31
months and I had to go I went back to
01:30:34
Blendham because Blendham was my
01:30:35
hometown. People know me, you know, and
01:30:38
the situation I was in, you know, but I
01:30:41
went back to Blenham, man. And yeah,
01:30:44
everyone was focused on me because, you
01:30:47
know, Rebel coming back to uh back to
01:30:49
Blenhum, he's going to take over Blenham
01:30:51
and start all this [ __ ] up and I
01:30:54
wasn't even thinking with that, you
01:30:55
know. I was worried about getting my
01:30:57
family back, getting work, and no one
01:30:59
would give me work. Like, I knew a lot
01:31:00
of people there, but it was real hard.
01:31:02
But one of my mates, they had showed me
01:31:04
how to car. Um, he reached out to I
01:31:07
reached out to him, even though I had a
01:31:09
fallout for him, you know, and I asked
01:31:11
him, "Hey, bro, have you got a job for
01:31:13
me?" And he goes, "Yeah, part-time job."
01:31:16
And, um, I thought his part-time job
01:31:18
would be like 3 days a week, but it
01:31:19
wasn't. It was 5 days. And to this day,
01:31:23
man, he's been one of my biggest
01:31:25
supporters.
01:31:26
>> Why did Why did he give you a second
01:31:27
chance?
01:31:28
>> He knew me as Lee. He didn't know me as
01:31:30
Lee, the rebel, the deport, the the the
01:31:33
bad person that everyone wants to call.
01:31:35
He knew me as a lot of people in Blenham
01:31:36
knew me as that. You know, they didn't
01:31:38
look at that and go, "Oh, yeah, Lee, you
01:31:41
know, he's a rebel and he's this, this,
01:31:42
and that." You know,
01:31:44
>> is it hard finding people that can see
01:31:45
past the exterior?
01:31:47
>> Yeah.
01:31:48
>> Yeah, it was. you know, but that's why I
01:31:50
went back to Britain.
01:31:51
>> Yeah.
01:31:51
>> You know, I know walks of life back
01:31:53
there, you know, and it wasn't for my if
01:31:56
it wasn't for my mom, I don't know where
01:31:58
what where what I would be doing.
01:32:01
>> Oddly enough, I'd still be here.
01:32:05
>> Yeah. Cuz your mental health
01:32:06
deteriorated uh when you moved back to
01:32:08
um New Zealand,
01:32:10
>> what did stop you from taking your own
01:32:12
life?
01:32:13
>> My daughter.
01:32:16
Yeah. Um, two of my daughters actually.
01:32:20
I was I was that close on just [ __ ] it.
01:32:23
You know, depression got me real bad. It
01:32:27
was a real thing because I lost a lot of
01:32:29
weight and stuff like that. And you
01:32:31
know, some some of when you get some of
01:32:33
the boys questioning about, oh, bro,
01:32:35
you're on the [ __ ] me, you lost so
01:32:36
much weight and this and that. It wasn't
01:32:38
it wasn't that. It was the stress on my
01:32:41
life. It was coming back home doing club
01:32:44
life. my family, my mom's sick, um, you
01:32:48
know, just trying to focus and coming
01:32:52
back to my trauma, you know, coming back
01:32:54
to my where my trauma happened, my abuse
01:32:57
that I didn't sort out when I left,
01:32:59
>> just all hit me cuz I went home and I
01:33:01
took my took my kids around for where I
01:33:02
used to live, you know,
01:33:04
>> show my kids, we've had a good life, but
01:33:06
this is where I'm brought up from. where
01:33:08
some of my mates are still store and
01:33:09
your kids are
01:33:10
>> you know um we're not you know we come
01:33:13
home we don't [ __ ] judge people where
01:33:16
they come from and I think that hit me
01:33:18
going past the house that I got abused
01:33:20
at and looked at and going [ __ ] man I
01:33:22
haven't even sorted my [ __ ] out you know
01:33:24
I haven't even you know I've come back
01:33:26
I've got all the [ __ ] pole I mean
01:33:29
and um yeah in my darkest times man I
01:33:33
just said to myself I said [ __ ] I don't
01:33:34
want to be here anymore it's way easier
01:33:36
just to [ __ ] and walk away.
01:33:39
>> But then I just realized that um you
01:33:42
know my um my ex partner, she rang me up
01:33:44
and said, "Hey, your daughter's in
01:33:46
hospital." I said, "Hey."
01:33:49
And uh at that moment, you know, my
01:33:51
oldest was going through some [ __ ] and
01:33:52
you know, I could talk to her and let
01:33:55
her know that I love her and this and
01:33:56
that, but when you get a phone call and
01:33:59
your daughter is sitting there and she
01:34:03
just goes, "Dad, I don't want to be
01:34:04
here." And I'm just looking at my
01:34:06
[ __ ] self going, "What the [ __ ] man?
01:34:08
I don't want to be here ever. I don't
01:34:11
want my life.
01:34:13
It's easy just to go and and just leave
01:34:16
you to it."
01:34:20
And I think that was the moment, bro,
01:34:22
that [ __ ] this is a wakeup call, man.
01:34:24
This is a [ __ ] call where [ __ ] your
01:34:26
kids need you. Your daughter needs you.
01:34:29
And I just felt this thing where man,
01:34:31
okay,
01:34:33
I'm going to take my life, but what I'm
01:34:36
what am I doing? [ __ ] what I'm doing is
01:34:38
I'm leaving the pain with my kids.
01:34:40
>> I'm leaving the pain with my grandkids.
01:34:42
You know, I had um three grandkids, I
01:34:46
think it was, or two, no, two grandkids,
01:34:49
I think. Yeah, two grandkids.
01:34:51
And um honestly, bro, I've got I've got
01:34:55
five now and another one on the way.
01:34:59
That's six grandkids that I can [ __ ]
01:35:01
get to see.
01:35:02
>> I get to see them grow. I get to see my
01:35:05
kids grow. I get them to see them
01:35:06
achieve what they are. And I get to see,
01:35:11
you know, what my dream is really about.
01:35:13
And my dream is now where I'm at now. I
01:35:16
get to see it, bro. And um it was my
01:35:17
daughter. If if that moment didn't
01:35:21
happen, I [ __ ] I reckon I like I say,
01:35:23
bro, I reckon I wouldn't be here
01:35:25
>> because there was a sign to say,
01:35:26
actually, [ __ ] that. I need you. I need
01:35:29
you here so I can enjoy my life, too,
01:35:32
but I want you to enjoy it with me. I
01:35:35
want you to see us grow and and see my
01:35:37
grandkids grow. So,
01:35:39
>> yeah,
01:35:40
>> you you get to see all of that. They get
01:35:42
to see um you become the man that you
01:35:44
you can be and you get to see you reach
01:35:47
your full potential as well.
01:35:49
>> It's wins all around. What would you say
01:35:51
to anyone that's um listening to this or
01:35:52
watching this that's in that dark corner
01:35:54
right now? What would your advice be to
01:35:55
them?
01:35:57
>> Just to say, "Fuck, I'm here. I'm going
01:36:00
to sit here and I'm going to listen.
01:36:03
I'm here for you to tell me [ __ ] what's
01:36:06
going on, bro. What's going on?" And
01:36:08
some of that some of that stuff, bro, is
01:36:10
[ __ ] I had a [ __ ] day at work, you
01:36:13
know, or I got upset at the kids or I
01:36:17
done something wrong. Like, okay, I've
01:36:18
gone through the court system again.
01:36:20
I've I've [ __ ] failed. I've [ __ ] up
01:36:22
again. No, you haven't, bro. You just
01:36:24
made a little mistake. If that's all it
01:36:26
is, bro, it can be fixed.
01:36:29
>> You know, we we run into these walls of,
01:36:32
you know, the only [ __ ] roadblocks,
01:36:34
you know, how do we get around it? You
01:36:36
know, a lot of our a lot of our people
01:36:38
just need someone to [ __ ] talk to.
01:36:40
>> Let it out. And all they want you to do
01:36:42
is just listen. And all you can say to
01:36:45
them is go, "Bro, I hear you, bro. I
01:36:48
hear your conversations.
01:36:50
You know, I know what you're going
01:36:51
through or been through there, but
01:36:53
there's a purpose why you're here.
01:36:54
There's a reason why you're here." And I
01:36:56
always tell tell men, "My reason is is
01:37:00
because my kids were going through their
01:37:03
dark times. My reason here, my purpose
01:37:05
here now is to be a voice for our for
01:37:08
our men that sit in those dark places
01:37:11
for our community, you know. Um, and
01:37:14
that's what, you know, that's why our
01:37:17
brothers are going through some dark
01:37:18
times, you know, because they feel weak.
01:37:20
They feel like no one wants to [ __ ]
01:37:22
listen,
01:37:23
>> but actually we do, you know, and let
01:37:26
them know that, hey, today might be a
01:37:28
bad day, but when you wake up, my bro,
01:37:30
hey, you're woken up, you're here still.
01:37:33
There's a reason why you're here, you
01:37:34
know, and it's just catching them at the
01:37:36
moment. Some brothers, you know,
01:37:38
sometimes and we talk about those those
01:37:41
dark times, bro. We talk about suicide.
01:37:44
You know, suicide is a is a hard thing
01:37:46
because it'll take anyone, you know, it
01:37:49
doesn't care who it takes. It's how
01:37:52
we, you know, we talk about and stuff
01:37:54
like that. People talk about, oh, can't
01:37:57
talk about suicide because they just go
01:37:58
and do it. was like, "Well, no, because
01:38:00
end of the day, we we need conversations
01:38:02
on it, you know? We need to have those
01:38:04
talks and and ask them, bro, why [ __ ]
01:38:06
are you going through then?" You know,
01:38:07
and I found out the hard way, bro.
01:38:10
>> I've I've lost a mate while I was in
01:38:12
detention, a real good mate of mine. Um,
01:38:16
at those times when I was in detention,
01:38:18
I had a [ __ ] day. And I said to my bro,
01:38:21
"Come and visit me." I said, "Hey, bro.
01:38:23
I'm just having a [ __ ] day, man. Like, I
01:38:25
really don't want any visitors." And it
01:38:28
was real hard because he was looking
01:38:31
forward to the visit. And then the next
01:38:33
day I get a phone call and he took his
01:38:37
life. But the thing was he was still
01:38:41
alive like he was on a on a on a
01:38:43
machine. His mom found him and two young
01:38:47
young kids found him found him hanging
01:38:49
and just around the corner from his
01:38:51
house. So mom heard all the screaming.
01:38:53
So she's come out and I really feel for
01:38:55
her because she had to witness this.
01:38:57
This fellow man was he was he he was a G
01:39:00
he was young you know I met him in jail
01:39:02
was one of my cellmates and he was man
01:39:05
he was gangster like he was only young
01:39:09
and those moments where I was like [ __ ]
01:39:11
those thoughts were going man what if
01:39:13
what if what if bro I said come and see
01:39:16
me what what do you want to talk to me
01:39:17
about you know and I heard it was over a
01:39:20
girl and I was like I would have just
01:39:21
said to him hey bro you know don't worry
01:39:24
about that my bro you know but it's hard
01:39:27
because we think that that it was going
01:39:30
to help him and get him through that,
01:39:32
but it didn't. I got to say goodbye to
01:39:33
him. The guards let me go say goodbye to
01:39:35
him. It was real hard cuz I, you know, I
01:39:37
see mom and and um I just see my bro
01:39:41
there and and I and I and I whispered in
01:39:43
his ear and and I apologized.
01:39:48
You know, it took me ages to get over
01:39:50
that, but I realized that when I start
01:39:52
learning more about suicide, it it's
01:39:55
actually we can't sit here and say the
01:39:57
whatifs.
01:39:59
>> And then um you know, that was that side
01:40:02
of it. Then couple of years ago, I had
01:40:04
another good mate of mine here and blend
01:40:05
him pass away. I got him on the other
01:40:08
side. He reached out. He attempted it
01:40:10
once and um I helped him. He come to me
01:40:14
and he just said, "Bro, I don't want to
01:40:16
be here." I said, "Yeah, bro. you I want
01:40:18
you here because I love you, bro. You
01:40:20
know, there's a reason why you're here.
01:40:23
And he goes, "Okay." So, I've got him in
01:40:25
that that right space, happy, working
01:40:28
again. Um, and we're supposed to do a
01:40:30
short film together. We got we got
01:40:31
invited to do a short short film
01:40:32
together. Uh, I remember I I went away
01:40:36
for a few days and I checked up on him
01:40:38
once and the next two days I was busy
01:40:41
and um and I come back and then we had
01:40:43
the the the uh film the first film shoot
01:40:47
on I think it was on a Friday
01:40:50
and um I messaged him and said, "Hey
01:40:51
bro, where are you? You're not here."
01:40:53
You know, we got the film ship real
01:40:54
excited cuz it's about two, you know,
01:40:56
two gangsters doing a doing a drug deal.
01:40:59
You know, he he was he was left that
01:41:00
world too. So they want us to do the
01:41:02
short film and be that person. And I was
01:41:03
like, man, real excited to do do it with
01:41:05
him cuz I asked him to come and do it
01:41:07
with me.
01:41:08
And then um yeah, 1:00, man, I got this
01:41:11
phone call. And the phone call was,
01:41:14
"Hey, bro, you heard about Cod?" He
01:41:15
said, "No, is you all good? Where is
01:41:17
he?" He goes, "Oh, no, bro. He's not
01:41:19
here." I said, "What?" He goes, "Nah,
01:41:22
he's taking his life."
01:41:25
In that moment, bro, it was just like
01:41:27
once again the triggers of the whatifs.
01:41:30
>> But I got him in that place of
01:41:32
happiness. I got him into the place
01:41:33
where [ __ ] bro, you're all good. You
01:41:35
know, and it's real hard to understand
01:41:37
that that okay, I got one brother that
01:41:40
went because he, you know, didn't talk
01:41:42
to him and he was in a real bad place,
01:41:44
but then another brother where [ __ ] we,
01:41:46
you know, we thought we fixed him. We
01:41:48
thought we we got him into that happy
01:41:50
place,
01:41:51
but you know, suicide took him and and
01:41:55
just just like that, eh?
01:41:58
>> Yeah, it's a tricky it's it's a tricky
01:41:59
one. cuz it it is always the
01:42:01
individual's decision and it's just it's
01:42:03
tough and I I say to people you just got
01:42:05
to hang on to hang on to the m live in
01:42:07
the moment hang just hang on to hope
01:42:10
>> hope that the next moment's going to be
01:42:11
better because it's a permanent
01:42:13
>> uh it's a permanent solution to what is
01:42:15
always a temporary problem.
01:42:16
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:42:18
>> It's tough. You don't still hold
01:42:19
yourself responsible?
01:42:21
>> No. Because I've learned, you know, I
01:42:23
can't Yeah. I had to let that go and
01:42:24
actually think to myself and have people
01:42:27
around me that are in that space to say,
01:42:30
you know, it's one of those topics that
01:42:31
is hard,
01:42:32
>> you know, we we can't sit there and and
01:42:34
and blame blame ourselves and and sit
01:42:38
there and say we're out here to save the
01:42:39
world because we're not, you know.
01:42:42
>> Um yeah, so I learned on both sides of
01:42:45
of that.
01:42:48
So, we're at the point of the story now
01:42:49
where you you're back in Blenhham.
01:42:50
You're trying to you pick up the pieces
01:42:52
and rebuild your life. Um, this is when
01:42:54
you you um uncouple from the rebels, the
01:42:58
gang
01:42:59
>> um because it's just not serving your
01:43:00
mental health anymore. Um, and you
01:43:02
discover boxing as well. You hang up a
01:43:04
bag.
01:43:05
>> Yeah. Hang up a bag. Yeah. Yeah.
01:43:06
>> Why? What made you do that?
01:43:08
>> Boxing's changed your life.
01:43:09
>> Yeah. Boxing has Boxing saved my life,
01:43:11
man. Boxing has given me opportunities
01:43:14
of being here and doing what I do. Um
01:43:18
[ __ ] Yeah. Um yeah, I done a bit of
01:43:22
boxing over Aussie. Had a couple of
01:43:24
amateur fights. Nothing flash, but I
01:43:25
wanted to give it a go. Was around
01:43:27
certain people that were in that boxing
01:43:29
game. And before I was before I was got
01:43:32
deported, we had this plan of starting
01:43:33
our own boxing gym with with a good uh
01:43:36
he's like a father figure to me. And um
01:43:38
we're always going to call it box on
01:43:39
boxing. Um the reason why we call a box
01:43:43
on boxing because end of the day
01:43:45
whatever whatever we go through in life
01:43:48
the [ __ ] that we get put on us and we go
01:43:51
into those real deep places is that
01:43:53
actually we we can carry on with life.
01:43:55
we can smash through the wall and we can
01:43:57
we can still box on and it just it just
01:44:00
clicked and I told my I told my mate
01:44:03
that um
01:44:06
you know I am going to start something
01:44:08
up with boxing uh when it was or or
01:44:11
whenever it was going to happen. Um and
01:44:14
I think that was the moment where [ __ ]
01:44:16
this is the time where man I'm going to
01:44:18
hang that bag up. I'm going to let [ __ ]
01:44:20
out. I'm going to get me out of the
01:44:21
dark. let my emotions out and just let
01:44:26
all the anger and stuff out. And that's
01:44:27
when hitting the bag, seeing the [ __ ]
01:44:30
mirror, sitting there, you know, sitting
01:44:31
there and looking at the mirror and
01:44:33
saying to myself and goes, "Fuck, man.
01:44:36
The only way you're going to get out
01:44:37
here is we're going to get out by
01:44:38
ourselves because there's no one behind
01:44:40
you that's going to help you." You know,
01:44:42
where's all the brothers and and the
01:44:44
friends and that that so cool that want
01:44:47
to be with you? They're not there
01:44:48
because, you know, they got other [ __ ]
01:44:50
going on their lives. But I'm going to
01:44:52
I'm going to pull myself. And that's
01:44:53
yeah what I created. And um after I left
01:44:57
the club, I just had a few people reach
01:44:59
out and say, "Hey, my kids are going
01:45:01
through a bit of bullying,
01:45:02
>> mental health, stuff like that." And
01:45:04
that was just like, man, I'm going
01:45:05
through that. That's when I started my
01:45:07
journey on my mental health. And it
01:45:09
helped me,
01:45:10
>> you know, helped me talk about me and
01:45:13
what I was going through, but listen to
01:45:14
other kids going through it as well. M.
01:45:16
>> And that's how, you know, started with
01:45:19
two nerdy kids that were nerds, but they
01:45:22
were just getting bullied at bullied at
01:45:24
school. And it that just started me off
01:45:26
on it grew out of my garage, man. Like,
01:45:28
I'm just one of those garage stories
01:45:29
where, yeah, hang up a boxing bag. Let's
01:45:32
help help some people and and and go
01:45:34
from there. And it just grew.
01:45:36
>> There's there's a a woman sitting in the
01:45:37
office um right at the moment called
01:45:39
Maxine Sweeney. Um she's, from what I
01:45:42
can gather, another one of these people
01:45:43
that believed in you when no one else
01:45:44
did.
01:45:45
>> Yeah. Uh yeah. How did your paths cross
01:45:47
and what sort of impact did she had on
01:45:48
you?
01:45:49
>> Oh man, she's um
01:45:52
she doesn't like me talking about her.
01:45:53
She doesn't like the recognition. We
01:45:55
always have arguments and and stuff like
01:45:58
that. She's been
01:46:00
um
01:46:02
the backbone
01:46:05
of creating box on,
01:46:08
>> you know, as well. She's been in the
01:46:09
back. She's been in the times where man
01:46:13
um need to make some decisions. And I've
01:46:15
been through board members, you know,
01:46:16
cuz I'm a charitable organization. Who
01:46:19
would who would have thought that a 501
01:46:22
gang member would would create a space,
01:46:25
you know, through a charitable organ
01:46:28
organization to help others. Um yeah. So
01:46:32
she come in the picture. So what had
01:46:34
happened is um we had another friend,
01:46:36
she was a youth worker and she just
01:46:39
asked me, you know, oh, you want to come
01:46:41
down and have a look at the youth
01:46:42
center? And I was like, oh yeah, have a
01:46:44
look at it. Took me a while and I
01:46:46
thought, okay, I'm going to go down
01:46:48
there and I'm just going to walk past
01:46:49
and have a look. So I walked past and
01:46:54
then I went back again and then I walked
01:46:56
in and walked in and Maxine and another
01:47:00
brother of ours Sunni was sitting there
01:47:03
and um don't know something just clicked
01:47:05
you know something just thing about um
01:47:09
you know why I'm here um so we just
01:47:12
started talking and she wanted to know
01:47:14
my story told a little bit about it um
01:47:17
and stuff like that and um we just
01:47:20
clicked and And um I hung around for a
01:47:22
while, you know, I had to, you know, let
01:47:26
let the know who I was and stuff like
01:47:28
that. And um then something happened. Uh
01:47:32
I think it was I can't even remember,
01:47:34
man. I think it might have been 200 20
01:47:37
or so. I don't know what it was. Uh an
01:47:40
incident happened in you know, incident
01:47:42
happened in Blenhum. I was just about to
01:47:44
start my youth work and uh an incident
01:47:47
happened and um it was real hard because
01:47:50
um
01:47:52
it it was you know obviously people I
01:47:55
knew but it was my start of my journey
01:47:57
of being a youth worker once again bang
01:48:00
the door got closed
01:48:03
once again [ __ ] I'm here trying I'm here
01:48:06
[ __ ] I want to change my life I found
01:48:08
out what I want to do and it stopped and
01:48:11
I and the program didn't happened.
01:48:13
Maxine and my other bro had to tell me,
01:48:16
give me the bad news, say, "Hey, we
01:48:17
can't do the program because of, you
01:48:20
know, your stuff that you used to do
01:48:21
this and that." I said, "Man,
01:48:24
this is the right time to bring this in.
01:48:25
This is the right time to bring me in
01:48:27
here and show
01:48:29
and that that the choices we make in
01:48:31
life can destroy someone's life just
01:48:33
like that and someone else's." So,
01:48:35
>> um, yeah, done that. And then um it
01:48:40
wasn't goodbye, it was that's cool, I
01:48:42
want to go reset myself and do do my
01:48:46
stuff. And then I went, you know, cook
01:48:49
my got my own boxing gym.
01:48:51
It was only a small one. And then um
01:48:55
Maxim reached out again and um went
01:48:58
behind, you know, went behind work and
01:48:59
stuff like that. You know, she just knew
01:49:01
something was up. She knew there was
01:49:05
something good there and she just stuck
01:49:08
behind me all all the time and then each
01:49:11
time I just had to keep proving to
01:49:13
people that I have changed heaps people
01:49:16
you know police people in the community
01:49:18
now he's still doing the same thing he's
01:49:19
using that as a recruitment thing he's
01:49:22
he's he's you know wants to patch up
01:49:25
people this but I was on a journey of
01:49:26
change so I already left the club you
01:49:28
know so I still had those things but she
01:49:30
stood there and said you know I can see
01:49:32
something.
01:49:32
>> So she come on to my board and um then I
01:49:37
just started learning youth work, you
01:49:39
know, learning how to be a proper youth
01:49:41
worker, the way to show up for our youth
01:49:46
and show up for them and
01:49:48
>> and let them know that I'm here and
01:49:50
stuff like that. And it was voluntary.
01:49:52
My first year was voluntary. So I had to
01:49:54
prove in the background too to prove to
01:49:58
uh the trust that I working for now that
01:50:00
I have changed. Even though you said I
01:50:02
can't you can't come in this space
01:50:04
anymore. You know I still said I'm going
01:50:07
to still work with youth. If it's not
01:50:09
with youth I'll do it at my boxing gym.
01:50:10
I'll do in the community but I had Max
01:50:13
in the background show me teaching me
01:50:15
youth stuff cuz youth work bro. Everyone
01:50:18
wants to be a youth worker
01:50:20
>> but it's not as easy as what they think
01:50:21
it is man. It's hard, man. And when
01:50:23
you're dealing with, you know, different
01:50:25
diversity of kids and stuff like that.
01:50:28
And that was my thing of um growing
01:50:31
growing box on boxing, it turned into,
01:50:34
okay, we need to start putting policies,
01:50:36
procedures, we need to start doing this,
01:50:38
this, and that. And she's just been a
01:50:40
massive backbone of youth work and stuff
01:50:42
like that.
01:50:44
>> The world needs more Maxine Sweenies.
01:50:46
people that just have that, you know, if
01:50:49
you look for the good in in someone or
01:50:50
look for the bad in someone, you'll find
01:50:52
it either way.
01:50:53
>> You do in anybody and absolutely
01:50:55
anybody. It seems I'm getting emotional
01:50:57
thinking about Maxine.
01:50:58
>> You do. Yeah. And
01:51:00
>> how does it make you feel that she she
01:51:02
didn't know? Yeah. But she still had
01:51:04
your back and she thought she
01:51:05
>> Yeah. And never takes any credibility of
01:51:09
what Boxon's about either. Yeah. Okay.
01:51:11
it's my my dream, my organization, but
01:51:15
end of the day, the people in the back
01:51:17
background believe in you and stuff like
01:51:18
that, you know, it's um yeah, you know,
01:51:23
you have our families and that backing
01:51:25
up, but you have a person like that that
01:51:27
just wants to believe in you and what
01:51:28
you do and um you know, I've met a lot
01:51:32
of youth workers, man. I've met met, you
01:51:35
know, some real good youth workers, but
01:51:38
you know, she is she is the the knees
01:51:43
bees of of youth work and what it's
01:51:45
about and how to approach it and and
01:51:48
stuff like we have our arguments, we
01:51:50
have our moments, we have blowups, you
01:51:53
know, but she's taught me to, okay, we
01:51:56
have a blow up, but we're going to go
01:51:57
away. We're going to walk away cuz it's
01:51:59
going to, you know, just seriously, you
01:52:02
know, just thing up. Okay. When I first
01:52:06
started, I was like, you know, okay, if
01:52:08
you this and that, and [ __ ] you don't
01:52:09
know me. You don't know anything, you
01:52:11
know. And she actually taught me that
01:52:13
sometimes I'm a father to these youth.
01:52:16
Sometimes the way I come across is
01:52:18
actually we can't be that person, you
01:52:20
know. We can't be the sometimes we can't
01:52:23
be that father figure for these kids.
01:52:24
We've got to come on another approach.
01:52:27
So, um I've learned so much from from
01:52:30
her in that space and um and and where I
01:52:34
am today and you know and and building
01:52:38
my team that I have now. Um I've been
01:52:41
through so many people, man, friends,
01:52:43
family, people that say I'm there for
01:52:45
you this and that. And don't get me
01:52:47
wrong, like I probably wouldn't be here
01:52:48
if it wasn't for them as well because
01:52:50
end of the day, they helped me, you
01:52:52
know, build it, but they weren't in for
01:52:54
the right stuff that I was in it for.
01:52:57
>> Yeah.
01:52:57
>> And now my board and my my committee
01:53:00
are, you know, um,
01:53:04
policeman,
01:53:06
social worker, OT,
01:53:09
um, a real good accountant, a real good
01:53:12
um, just got a real estate person on
01:53:13
business. old friend of mine. He's just
01:53:15
watching my my my stuff and he he's come
01:53:18
home and he's just like, man, I need to
01:53:19
jump on this. Uh and then hopefully my
01:53:22
my friend, you know, helped me off work,
01:53:26
he's going to jump on and then I've got
01:53:28
another young fellow. He's a moldy. He
01:53:30
come to me 2 3 years ago,
01:53:34
>> 150 kilos, mental health, didn't want to
01:53:37
be here, stuff like that. and now he's
01:53:39
90 kilos working for the council doing
01:53:42
some real good stuff for for our people
01:53:44
back home
01:53:45
>> and um he wants to jump on and and
01:53:48
create a safe space for us. So, um,
01:53:51
yeah.
01:53:52
Yeah, she's, yeah, she's pretty cool,
01:53:55
you know. We, um, like I said, we have
01:53:58
our moments. We have our moments, but we
01:54:01
teach each other that we got to keep
01:54:03
ourselves accountable and we got to come
01:54:05
back and actually talk about it.
01:54:07
>> Don't just [ __ ] get all thing and
01:54:09
then not talk about it
01:54:10
>> and and and sort it out. So,
01:54:13
>> yeah.
01:54:14
>> Oh, good on her for putting your neck on
01:54:16
the line when she didn't have to. The
01:54:17
easiest thing would have just been to
01:54:18
say, "Oh, hey guys, I think this this
01:54:20
guy leaves all right. He seems legit."
01:54:22
And then you reach a roadblock and it's
01:54:24
too hard. And then you just never
01:54:26
retreated.
01:54:27
>> No, I didn't retreat and just keep keep,
01:54:29
you know, battling the the battle,
01:54:31
>> you know?
01:54:32
>> What are are there any sort of standout
01:54:35
um success stories from box on boxing?
01:54:37
Um
01:54:37
>> Oh, these heaps, bro.
01:54:39
>> These heaps, man. these,
01:54:42
you know, these
01:54:44
getting people jobs, you know, creating
01:54:47
a space where our kids are coming and
01:54:50
they're getting bullied. They the self
01:54:52
the self-confidence is down. Um, you
01:54:56
know, boxing's boxing is not all about
01:54:59
being violent. Boxing is not all about
01:55:00
being the toughest and stuff like that.
01:55:02
For me, we're community based. We're all
01:55:05
about giving people opportunities to
01:55:07
have a go at boxing to see where it can
01:55:09
take them. You know, we get people that
01:55:11
can't even throw a skipping rope. You
01:55:12
know, I can't throw a skipping rope. I
01:55:14
said, "Bitch, you can." No, I can't,
01:55:16
man. One one throw with a skipping rope
01:55:18
and you you achieve it and you say,
01:55:20
"There you go. You've done it." You
01:55:22
know, this is not just kids, this is
01:55:23
adults as well. And the smile you see
01:55:25
from them and going, "Actually, okay, I
01:55:27
did do it." M
01:55:28
>> you know so it's um we've yeah we've had
01:55:32
some big successes in in in our our gym
01:55:36
of our young fellows going away in the
01:55:38
real world you know some can't read and
01:55:41
write now they're got jobs driving
01:55:45
the world you know one of my young
01:55:47
fellas just come back he's traveled the
01:55:49
whole world and he come back and gave me
01:55:50
a big massive hug and he said hey bro
01:55:52
I'm I'm really thankful of you I'm
01:55:54
thankful of you and the team for giving
01:55:57
me opport opportunities that that I
01:55:59
didn't have, you know, come from a real
01:56:01
wealthy family, too, but he's traveled
01:56:03
the world
01:56:04
>> and stuff like that. So, yeah.
01:56:08
>> What's the future for box on boxing?
01:56:10
Like, where do you where do you see it
01:56:11
in 5 years, 10 years time?
01:56:13
>> Oh, man. I Everyone asks me, we always
01:56:15
change our cuz it always changes, you
01:56:18
know, we have these big things. Um, I
01:56:21
want box on boxing. you know
01:56:25
our sort of our little dream is
01:56:29
youth center
01:56:30
>> sports together so that's obviously I do
01:56:32
a lot of stuff for mobile youth trust
01:56:33
mobile youth trust is the company I work
01:56:35
for the charable organiz char
01:56:37
organization I work for um I want you
01:56:41
know us together we're collabing
01:56:43
together I really want to put them
01:56:45
together and then um after that I want
01:56:49
um transitional housing transitional
01:56:51
housing for
01:56:53
You know, everyone says it's it's going
01:56:54
to be hard. It's hard work, but I
01:56:58
believe getting those three put together
01:57:00
where transition housing for our is we
01:57:03
got a lot of couch surfers.
01:57:04
>> So, all I want is a place where they can
01:57:07
sit. It's not there to live. It's there
01:57:08
to sit there instead of going around in
01:57:10
circles and and and
01:57:13
enjoying life with their friends and
01:57:15
living at their friends house cuz their
01:57:16
friends are going to get sick of them.
01:57:17
It's actually asking them what's going
01:57:19
on, what's happening at home, why are
01:57:21
you doing this? Let's get the services
01:57:23
and the wraparounds you need and and put
01:57:25
them there and then move them on to to
01:57:27
better things, you know, and um like I
01:57:30
say, that's one of our massive things in
01:57:32
in Blenham at the moment is homelessness
01:57:33
for our people will sit there and say,
01:57:36
"Yeah, people will sit there and go,
01:57:38
well, we we don't see it." Of course,
01:57:39
you're not going to see it cuz you're
01:57:40
not in deep in the conversations. You're
01:57:43
not deep in the
01:57:44
>> in the well-being of these. We see it
01:57:47
all the time. We hear it all the time.
01:57:48
You know, couch surfing is homelessness.
01:57:51
Couch surfing is doesn't have a home.
01:57:54
You know, where we where, you know,
01:57:55
going around their friends and and and
01:57:57
stuff like that. So, that's that's the
01:58:00
bigger part for me for that. Uh doing
01:58:02
programs as well, running programs
01:58:05
>> um and stuff like that there. So, you
01:58:08
know, part of boxing boxing too. I run a
01:58:10
men's group too. Um my men's group is
01:58:12
called Kakurongani.
01:58:14
Kakurani is about men speaking up. A lot
01:58:18
of our men reach out and don't talk
01:58:22
about their triggers, their traumas. You
01:58:24
know, a lot of it's abuse as well,
01:58:26
sexual abuse.
01:58:27
>> Um I get a lot of people messing say,
01:58:29
man, when you told your story and open
01:58:32
up, you know, about what you've been
01:58:34
through, you know, um I want I want that
01:58:38
as well. But I I tell them that yeah,
01:58:40
the first thing you got to do is come
01:58:42
through that door, talk about it, let it
01:58:45
out, and and and and you know, have
01:58:48
those conversations, you know. So, um
01:58:50
that men's group I run there and I and I
01:58:52
run a free a free class on a Thursday
01:58:54
night uh for my boxing from 7:00 to
01:58:57
8:00. And that class is for all men that
01:58:59
are walking around Blenham
01:59:02
coming home from work about to have an
01:59:04
argument with their misses at home or
01:59:06
something's going on at home to come to
01:59:08
the gym. Have a hit on the bag. Have a
01:59:10
hit on the pads. Let let those emotions
01:59:12
out. Have the conversations of [ __ ]
01:59:15
bro. Why are we blowing up? What's going
01:59:16
on in the real world? You know, come
01:59:19
into box on have conversations. Let all
01:59:23
your [ __ ] go on that bag and leave it
01:59:24
there. don't take it home and and stuff
01:59:27
like that. And then find out what
01:59:29
supports they need, get them the
01:59:30
supports they need, put them onto the
01:59:32
right people and um and just, you know,
01:59:35
guide them and and walk along walk
01:59:37
alongside them. You know,
01:59:41
>> vulnerability is really hard. I I can't
01:59:43
imagine um you know, how how difficult
01:59:45
it is and how much courage it takes some
01:59:47
of these guys to walk through that door
01:59:48
for the first time.
01:59:49
>> Yeah. And and some of them walk through
01:59:51
that door and go, "Man, that fell over
01:59:52
there, man. [ __ ] [ __ ] he's throwing
01:59:54
some mean punches and [ __ ] is skipping
01:59:57
skipping out the gate. I was like and
01:59:59
you know all the sparring. He's like far
02:00:02
you know I can't even throw a punch. You
02:00:03
know they say all this was said actually
02:00:06
>> he said the same thing as you just said
02:00:09
>> you're you're you're saying exactly what
02:00:11
that fellow or that girl over there just
02:00:12
said
02:00:13
>> they said man that that guy over there
02:00:15
or that kid over there [ __ ] they can
02:00:16
throw some punches. E yeah they didn't
02:00:18
know how to do that when they first come
02:00:20
here. They said the same the same thing,
02:00:22
you know. They want to know what's
02:00:23
behind the door. What behind the door is
02:00:25
is the the same version as what you are
02:00:27
now,
02:00:28
>> you know, and they've just grown and
02:00:29
they've just shown themselves and
02:00:30
they've showed up for themselves. That's
02:00:32
one of the hardest bits, too, man. You
02:00:34
need to show up for yourself, man. You
02:00:36
need to show up and do it, you know.
02:00:38
Once you get past that that bit and
02:00:41
unravel all that [ __ ] that's going on in
02:00:43
in your world and underneath you, you
02:00:46
know, um and a lot of them are scared to
02:00:48
make the mistake. Yeah,
02:00:50
>> a lot of them are scared. [ __ ] I [ __ ]
02:00:52
up. I've gone back to court. I've had a
02:00:54
beer.
02:00:55
>> I've had a puff. You know, I'm a
02:00:57
failure. I'm I'm a piece of [ __ ] You
02:01:00
know, no one's going to think me, hey,
02:01:02
bro, I'm going to walk with you, bro.
02:01:05
You know, I'm going to walk with you and
02:01:06
we're going to carry on even though you
02:01:08
made that mistake. Get you back on the
02:01:10
walker, bro. And keep going. That's like
02:01:12
our
02:01:13
when I started youth work there's a lot
02:01:15
of um
02:01:17
uh cars going missing you know um people
02:01:20
taking cars and um couple of ram raids
02:01:24
and that you know it's changed in
02:01:25
Blenham you know okay rains first
02:01:30
popping cars
02:01:32
um serious crime what are they going
02:01:34
back a couple now what are you here for
02:01:37
oh stealing what are you stealing food
02:01:40
cuz you can't survive
02:01:41
you know,
02:01:42
>> don't look at the negatives, too,
02:01:44
because the end of the day, yeah, when
02:01:45
we first come to court, they finished
02:01:47
their plans, but remember, they were on
02:01:49
um 24-hour lockdown bracelet, um popping
02:01:53
cars, serious crime. What are they here
02:01:55
for now? Stealing food. Okay, they're
02:01:58
back here. But look at the positives
02:01:59
they they have made. They made the
02:02:00
changes of those, you know. So, a lot of
02:02:04
our now off their plans and stuff. we're
02:02:07
getting a new a lot of them coming
02:02:08
through different different um kids
02:02:12
coming through too. So it's it's being a
02:02:15
youth work is how we change uh the way
02:02:17
our youth are. We deal with troubled
02:02:20
youth, gang youth, um special needs. Um
02:02:24
we got the queer group we deal with. Um
02:02:28
we've got a debating got a debating
02:02:30
class now which is pretty cool. But
02:02:32
working with all these different
02:02:33
diversity of kids and everyone asked us,
02:02:35
"How do you work with them?" I said,
02:02:37
"How do we work with them? They're
02:02:39
humans.
02:02:40
>> They are the same as the person beside
02:02:43
you." You know, and that's why I have
02:02:45
mirrors in the gym. A lot of people want
02:02:46
to have mirrors and want to be, you
02:02:48
know, want to be all flash and hey, look
02:02:50
at me. I'm pretty
02:02:52
some do, you know. But for me, it's for
02:02:57
the mirror and get them to stand by each
02:02:59
other and look at each other and go,
02:03:01
"What do you see in the mirror?" Oh, I
02:03:03
see a short person. I see a fat person.
02:03:05
I see a brown person. I see a person
02:03:08
over there with glasses. You know, and
02:03:11
then they ask me, "What do you see?" I
02:03:12
said, "I see a human being
02:03:18
that wants a safe place to be, but just
02:03:21
wants to be part of something. I don't
02:03:23
see color. I don't see geek. I don't see
02:03:26
color. I don't see um ethnic um you
02:03:29
know, race colors or anything like that.
02:03:31
I don't see all that stuff. I see you as
02:03:33
the person beside you as a human. We've
02:03:36
got to stop looking at the way our
02:03:38
appearances are. We've got to stop
02:03:40
judging people on that and the way they
02:03:42
talk and that. It's actually what comes
02:03:43
out of the heart. And when you have a a
02:03:46
a kid that's bought up in the system to
02:03:48
a kid that's real good on the computer
02:03:50
and that can be a nerd to have those two
02:03:52
together and have conversations on the
02:03:55
different worlds and they collide
02:03:56
together. You'll be surprised that the
02:03:59
person that's got everything, you know,
02:04:01
got all these expectations to be the
02:04:03
lawyers and this and that to a kid
02:04:05
that's been going through hard life and
02:04:08
that that kid that's achieved so much.
02:04:10
They want a normal life and that normal
02:04:12
life has been what the the kid that's
02:04:14
getting into trouble that's like a
02:04:16
normal life for them you know they think
02:04:18
it's going to be fun and stuff like that
02:04:20
but end of the day it's our kids that
02:04:22
have got that high life don't want all
02:04:25
the pressures on
02:04:26
>> on on achieving that you know so
02:04:28
>> there's um there's lots of analogies
02:04:30
between boxing and life like you know
02:04:32
you get knocked down you got to get up
02:04:33
again uh you know all all sorts of
02:04:35
things um if your life was a a boxing
02:04:39
fight what round would you be at How do
02:04:40
you think?
02:04:41
>> Uh, don't know if the rounds will
02:04:43
probably keep going for a while.
02:04:46
You know, I've had a couple of, you
02:04:47
know, and honestly, bro, I've had,
02:04:50
you know,
02:04:52
I I think, you know, I I've had my
02:04:56
we have those times and people look at
02:04:58
me and go, "Fuck, bro. You've done so
02:05:01
good for yourself. You You're at this
02:05:03
place where nothing can happen to you.
02:05:05
Nothing can can put you back in the
02:05:09
dark." And I really want to say that I
02:05:11
was in the dark last year.
02:05:13
>> I [ __ ] went in the dark and I haven't
02:05:15
really talked about this
02:05:16
>> and um
02:05:20
you know I had an incident in my gym a
02:05:23
couple years ago and it's real hard to
02:05:25
talk about because everyone has had
02:05:27
their [ __ ] talk on it. Um, you know,
02:05:32
when I had this incident, you know, it
02:05:34
was a it was a punch up in my gym and
02:05:38
you know, it was a learning curve for me
02:05:40
because I was away getting the tools
02:05:41
from a men's group that I need to bring
02:05:43
back to blend. It was a trust a trust
02:05:45
thing. And um,
02:05:48
for people to sit there and say you can
02:05:51
donate, you knew it was there. You knew
02:05:52
it was [ __ ] happening. You organized
02:05:55
it. You were behind the camera. This and
02:05:56
that. They didn't look at the positives
02:05:58
on it. Yeah. Okay. It was gang related,
02:06:01
but I never shut the door, you know.
02:06:04
They have apologized,
02:06:06
you know, and it's something that I I've
02:06:08
been wanting to talk to for a while. And
02:06:10
um when you go through those dark times
02:06:13
where everyone when that happens,
02:06:16
everyone wants to jump all over you.
02:06:18
>> Everyone wants to just go, "Yeah, [ __ ]
02:06:20
We got him." You know, he's not doing
02:06:22
good. He's not doing the good things.
02:06:24
Yeah. What I'm doing is that door's open
02:06:26
for everyone.
02:06:27
>> I don't care what background it was a
02:06:29
trust issue. It was a learning. And one
02:06:32
of those things that they come to me and
02:06:34
they apologized and to this day they
02:06:36
still apologize.
02:06:37
>> They still say and I still have their
02:06:38
kids coming and I watch them and I see
02:06:41
them and the stuff that they are doing
02:06:43
now for themselves,
02:06:46
you know, is is I see man as a change in
02:06:50
the way they are. They they still do
02:06:52
their their club stuff, but I see the
02:06:55
positive. I see the the healing wings
02:06:57
that they do. And I still had their kids
02:07:00
come into my gym and I still work with
02:07:02
their kids. You know, a video did come
02:07:05
out and for me at that time,
02:07:09
you know, I had a lot of pressure on me
02:07:12
and I, you know, when media come and
02:07:14
attack you and just make up their own
02:07:16
[ __ ] story. you know, they needed to
02:07:18
know the truth that I wasn't involved
02:07:20
with it. It was a learning thing. But
02:07:24
what it was is that you [ __ ] put that
02:07:26
out. It's the kids that we deal with
02:07:28
that are going to see it. I wanted and
02:07:30
and some of those people that were in
02:07:31
it, they all had good jobs. You know, it
02:07:35
was that moment where people were, "Ah,
02:07:36
[ __ ] them anyway. Don't don't worry
02:07:38
about it." No, I I tried my hardest to
02:07:41
stop them from coming out because I knew
02:07:46
that um they've got families and that as
02:07:49
well, you know, and stuff like that. And
02:07:52
it it was real hard. Last year was a
02:07:55
real real quiet year for me. But I had
02:07:58
to I front footed it. I still in the
02:08:01
community people just ask me the the
02:08:03
questions on on that. Oh, were you
02:08:05
there? Did you know? And I was like,
02:08:06
man, if you guys just come to me first
02:08:09
and asked me said, if I can hear all the
02:08:11
rumors and that, I would have told you,
02:08:12
>> you know.
02:08:13
>> Oh, what was it exactly? It just
02:08:14
>> it was just a it was a it was a punchup.
02:08:17
>> And people listening to this go, what's
02:08:20
a boxing joke?
02:08:20
>> It's a box. And that's the thing like
02:08:22
the the article come out and it
02:08:24
backfired on and it was and it was real
02:08:26
hard because it was all about
02:08:29
um
02:08:32
who who who wanted to bring it out to
02:08:34
wanted to to to to make me look bad. It
02:08:37
was just the opportunity, you know,
02:08:40
okay, another boxing gym out of BLM
02:08:42
going to close, you know, need your
02:08:43
doors closed so they can get all the
02:08:45
benefits, they can get all the all the
02:08:48
stuff. And it was a it was a jealousy
02:08:50
thing, you know, when people come to to
02:08:52
me and and and tell me that, hey,
02:08:55
certain people are trying to make a
02:08:56
story off on that article that come out.
02:08:59
Um, they want they they they want you
02:09:01
closed down. They, you know, and that's
02:09:04
that tall poppy syndrome,
02:09:05
>> you know. We we got to learn about tall
02:09:07
popper syndrome when we're doing so
02:09:08
good. There's those people that want to
02:09:10
bring you down, you know, because they
02:09:12
try to set those those things as well.
02:09:14
And it was real hard because everyone
02:09:17
got on top of it and and and we
02:09:19
forwarded and we went we done the
02:09:21
procedures and stuff like that and um
02:09:23
people just making their own stories and
02:09:25
for me the best thing is that I still
02:09:28
had all my sponsors behind me. you know,
02:09:30
I had I fixed all my policies up. You
02:09:33
know, I I had all those people that
02:09:35
believed in me and said to me and knew
02:09:37
that that wasn't my fault. It was a
02:09:39
learning thing and I've learned from it.
02:09:42
But the doors aren't closed. My doors
02:09:44
are still open to any walk of life that
02:09:46
want to come through. And that for me,
02:09:49
honestly, if there was another gym in
02:09:50
Blenham, they probably wouldn't have
02:09:52
gone got through this, you know, but I
02:09:54
needed to show them that, you know, I'm
02:09:56
still going to show up for our
02:09:58
community. I'm going to still be a voice
02:10:00
and let people know the truth about what
02:10:02
happened in that gym, you know, and
02:10:04
still let those people and work with
02:10:06
those people to come in that gym, you
02:10:07
know. So, like I say, my whole board's
02:10:09
changed now. You know, the police
02:10:12
officer like he's cool like he works
02:10:14
with our youth and to have him on my
02:10:17
board is a massive thing for me. I've
02:10:19
always had that thing against police
02:10:21
officers and that
02:10:22
>> but because I'm dealing with people, I
02:10:24
had to change my life.
02:10:25
>> Yeah. and to have him there, he had to
02:10:29
go right to the top, you know, to have
02:10:31
that in in my gym is is a massive
02:10:33
achievement for me and and the board
02:10:35
members that I have. So, we talk about
02:10:38
going through those bad times. I got it
02:10:42
last year, but I didn't give up and I
02:10:44
didn't go into the dark place. You know,
02:10:47
I had the right people around me to
02:10:48
watch me and say, "Hey, bro, are you
02:10:50
okay?" I had brothers reaching out and
02:10:52
saying, "Bro, you're okay?" I said,
02:10:54
"Yeah, I'm okay." And those chickens,
02:10:56
bro, that's all all we're looking for is
02:10:58
chickens.
02:10:59
>> Yeah.
02:11:00
>> You know, so that was that was my my
02:11:02
time. And um and things are things are
02:11:05
um like things are
02:11:08
going good now, you know, got a lot of
02:11:10
people behind us. Yeah.
02:11:11
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, um adversity is
02:11:13
never nice when you're going through it,
02:11:14
but everyone is going to go through it
02:11:16
at some point. But one
02:11:17
>> silver lining to adversity is um you
02:11:20
definitely find out who your real
02:11:21
friends are. um you know the Maxine
02:11:24
Sweenies of the world and you find out
02:11:26
who who is not there for you and doesn't
02:11:28
have your back with good intentions
02:11:29
>> and that's and that's family as well you
02:11:31
know
02:11:31
>> people you know obviously people want to
02:11:34
show
02:11:35
>> you know the the video or whatever it
02:11:37
was that they wanted to show but they
02:11:38
didn't come to me
02:11:40
>> you know instead they just pointing
02:11:42
things to go yeah you done that we're
02:11:43
doing the same [ __ ] you know but I know
02:11:47
I know what happens when you when when
02:11:49
you deal with these sort of people you
02:11:50
know but we Don't leave them behind. I'm
02:11:52
not shutting the door, you know. And the
02:11:56
positive of that that most those those
02:11:58
fellows that were in there, they are
02:12:00
doing they are doing good things. People
02:12:01
like the [ __ ] gang members, they
02:12:03
ain't doing they ain't doing jack [ __ ]
02:12:04
Well, they are because I'm watching. I
02:12:06
can see them. And every time I see them,
02:12:08
they're always saying, "Hey, bro, you
02:12:10
know, still sorry about" and it's like,
02:12:12
"It's all good." You know, it's past and
02:12:14
and it's going to pop up now and then,
02:12:17
but that's poppy syndrome for you when
02:12:19
people do that. Hey,
02:12:20
>> I I we're we're sort of getting to the
02:12:23
point we're wrapping up the podcast and
02:12:24
you you you brought this up and you've
02:12:26
talked about this for quite a while. So
02:12:27
clearly it's had a huge impact on you. I
02:12:29
did quite a bit of research. I didn't
02:12:30
come was this a big local story.
02:12:32
>> No, it was through the through the
02:12:34
Herald and that. Yeah. But it's gone
02:12:35
now. Like it'll pop up. But the thing is
02:12:37
I needed to talk about it. You know, I
02:12:39
need to let people know that, you know,
02:12:43
when we're doing the stuff that we're in
02:12:45
that and the people we deal with, you
02:12:48
know, sometimes that's going to happen,
02:12:49
especially in the boxing world.
02:12:51
>> Yeah.
02:12:51
>> You know, there's a lot going on, you
02:12:53
know, in the boxing world, but I'm but
02:12:55
for me, I keep myself accountable, you
02:12:58
know, and I put the right policies and
02:13:01
procedure. I got the right people around
02:13:03
me now so it doesn't happen. But end of
02:13:05
the day, I'm here and I'm not shutting
02:13:07
the door,
02:13:08
>> you I'm not going to shut the door and
02:13:09
say no none of you followers can come
02:13:11
and you know I've got all different
02:13:12
walks of life coming in the gym now man
02:13:14
I've got you know people on bracelets ex
02:13:17
gang members gang members you know that
02:13:19
want to come in there and and and play
02:13:21
you wouldn't even know that they are you
02:13:22
know police officers lawyers I've got
02:13:25
everyone coming to my gym you know when
02:13:27
you mix them all together we're not
02:13:28
there to judge this one reason why
02:13:30
they're there for you know and that's
02:13:32
just to have a good head out and let
02:13:35
some let some [ __ ] out on the bags and
02:13:36
that and and have conversations in there
02:13:38
as well, you know.
02:13:40
>> Are you happy today? Is today a good
02:13:43
day?
02:13:43
>> Today is a good day except for uh except
02:13:46
for the rental.
02:13:49
>> When do you think when can you can you
02:13:51
pinpoint when you've been your happiest
02:13:53
in life?
02:13:54
>> Um Oh, [ __ ] There's so many, you know,
02:13:58
honestly, bro, there's so many,
02:14:00
>> you know. I'm just happy on my life,
02:14:02
bro. I'm happy I'm breathing. I know
02:14:04
when I have a [ __ ] day that the next day
02:14:07
is going to be a new day.
02:14:09
>> And I know that the next day is going to
02:14:12
be different, you know. Um, and just to
02:14:17
know that we are making changes, you
02:14:19
know, I'm making changes in our
02:14:22
community, you know, I know that I can
02:14:25
um,
02:14:27
yeah, you know, I am happy, you know,
02:14:31
you know, I'm that person now, man, that
02:14:34
um, for me a purpose for me is a youth
02:14:38
worker,
02:14:39
>> a mentor.
02:14:41
Uh Maxi doesn't like me using mentor, so
02:14:43
I'm going to change that. But a youth
02:14:46
worker, a youth worker, a a voice, e a
02:14:49
voice and a change maker for our for our
02:14:52
brothers out there. You know, I've had a
02:14:54
few wahi reach out to me and say, "Hey,
02:14:56
you need to start this up." And I said,
02:14:58
"Oo, no, no disrespect
02:15:01
for a male to come into that space and
02:15:04
and do that stuff, you know, have all
02:15:06
that. It's it's not my place to do that,
02:15:08
you know, because they have different
02:15:10
emotions and they have different things
02:15:12
going on in their lives. So,
02:15:14
you know, it's one of those things where
02:15:16
I know, you know, a lot of wahini around
02:15:18
New Zealand are doing things. So, I
02:15:19
usually just pass them on to the, you
02:15:21
know, most of these most of us just chat
02:15:22
groups. I mean, just checking in, making
02:15:24
sure, hey, I've had, you know, my
02:15:26
kakongani has a chat group where we want
02:15:29
to check, we want to tap in and and just
02:15:31
say, hey, bro, are you all right? And
02:15:32
stuff like that. And there's a lot of
02:15:35
men's groups happening around New
02:15:36
Zealand too. And you know hopefully
02:15:38
there's more more opening up as well.
02:15:40
And and those men's group all walks of
02:15:43
life you know we can sit there and and
02:15:46
say oh it's only for the week but it's
02:15:47
not. It's for everyone that wants to
02:15:49
open up and just have that space where
02:15:51
you know and a lot of club members and
02:15:53
gang members are doing it too. I can see
02:15:54
I see what they're doing you know and to
02:15:58
watch them making change like we say
02:16:00
they are making changes. Some of them
02:16:01
I'm not going to change, but hey, that's
02:16:04
that's life. But I I do see it and um
02:16:07
from my from my little incident I had at
02:16:09
the gym, man, those brothers there have
02:16:12
are changed and they are changing and
02:16:14
making some positive moves and um it's
02:16:17
real good to see.
02:16:18
>> Are you proud of yourself?
02:16:20
>> Yeah, I'm proud of myself, man. You
02:16:22
know, I'm proud of where I'm at today.
02:16:25
I'm proud of who I am. Um, you know,
02:16:30
I've, you know, I've found that inner
02:16:33
boy on who I am. I'm enjoying life. You
02:16:37
know, I'm definitely proud. M
02:16:39
>> you know I um sometimes I'm a little bit
02:16:42
hard on myself and you know don't take
02:16:46
credit for what I do but end of the day
02:16:48
I just look at it as you know I'm just
02:16:50
here to toy and help others
02:16:53
>> to make changes in their lives but be
02:16:55
there to listen listen as well and see
02:16:58
where I can help and support them you
02:17:00
know and stuff like that. So, um, it's,
02:17:03
yeah, it's been a ride. I've met some
02:17:06
real cool people on my journey, bro.
02:17:08
Like, you know, um, I'm still me,
02:17:10
though. I don't I'm I'm not out there
02:17:13
after the follows, the likes, um, this
02:17:16
and that. Um, you know, I just want to
02:17:19
be like some of the other brothers and
02:17:20
and and be a change maker in in our
02:17:23
community and and be a voice for. So,
02:17:26
yeah. No, I am proud, bro, and I love
02:17:28
who I am as a person.
02:17:30
um and look look inside myself and say
02:17:34
actually you know I love you bro I love
02:17:38
you Lee you've done good so yeah
02:17:43
>> Lee Tapua thank you for coming on my
02:17:45
podcast
02:17:46
>> thanks man thanks for having us bro it's
02:17:48
it's real privilege to you come in here
02:17:50
and
02:17:52
um just do this and open up a bit a
02:17:54
little bit more of my journey and you
02:17:56
know a couple of things that I've opened
02:17:57
up I haven't really talked But I but I
02:17:59
but I needed to and um I think if I want
02:18:03
to move forward this is the moment for
02:18:06
me to to do that to move on and and make
02:18:10
those changes more changes in in my
02:18:12
life. So like I said bro that incident
02:18:15
and talking about the drugs and that
02:18:17
that's been a big thing for me you know
02:18:19
to open up and and stuff like that. So
02:18:22
but yeah thanks for having us having us
02:18:24
on Dom and yeah really enjoyed it.
02:18:26
>> I appreciate you sharing Lee. It's been
02:18:28
really nice to meet you, mate.
02:18:29
>> Cool. Yeah. Awesome, bro. Thank you,
02:18:31
bro.