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From 15 Armed Robberies to Changing Lives: The Jay Pukepuke Story

November 26, 2025 / 01:38:02

This episode features Jay Poke discussing his memoir, Inner Warrior, and his involvement with Bros for Change. The conversation covers his childhood in Auckland, his journey through crime, and his experiences in prison.

Jay shares insights about the title of his memoir, explaining that it reflects his internal struggles rather than physical battles. He expresses his disdain for the word "potential" and discusses how it has affected his life and perception.

He elaborates on Bros for Change, a program aimed at helping young people facing challenges. Jay explains the importance of building relationships and offering genuine support rather than temporary fixes.

Reflecting on his past, Jay recounts his early years in rugby league and the choices that led him down a path of crime, including a series of armed robberies. He discusses the impact of his actions on himself and others, emphasizing the psychological effects on victims.

Throughout the episode, Jay emphasizes personal accountability and the importance of change, sharing his journey of redemption and the lessons he has learned along the way.

TL;DR

Jay Poke discusses his memoir, crime past, and redemption through Bros for Change.

Video

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Jay Poke Poke, welcome to my podcast.

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>> Thanks, mate. Kind of good to be here.

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Yeah.

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>> Is it you are you nervous? Are you

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anxious? Are you How you feeling?

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>> Yeah, all of that.

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>> Yep.

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>> Yep. All of that. Uh don't do too much

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talking. So, um it's all new and I'm

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actually interested to see hear the

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questions and see how I respond. So,

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yeah.

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>> Yeah. So am I. So, um there's a couple

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of things that we should front foot it

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with. Um brand new book out, a memoir

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called Inner Warrior.

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>> Mhm.

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>> Yeah. I I love the name. Um there's so

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many layers to that. Um why was that the

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title that you settled on?

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>> Uh I actually did a talk a TED talk um

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long time ago and in a warrior came from

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a theme I actually stole off Steve

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Harvey, the comedian guy. Uh he's

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talking about

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uh if you want your parachute to open,

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you got to jump off a cliff. Talking

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about potential.

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Um

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which is a word I hate, but I kind of

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ran with that theme with myself and my

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and my change and and it kind of worked

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with being a you know being in the

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warriors at some stage. So it wasn't

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about um actually a physical warrior. It

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was more of a internal warrior which was

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the you know the biggest fight for me.

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So it kind of just made sense and

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>> and everyone liked it. So yeah that's

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where we were.

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>> That's how we landed.

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>> Why do you hate the word potential?

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>> Oh cuz you know it's it's like um you

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always hear it, oh he's got potential.

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It's like what do you mean he's got

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potential? He still he still has

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potential. you just uh yeah, I talked a

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little bit about that in the in the in

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the TED talk around, you know, all the

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potentials in the graveyard because

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people never acted on on on their ideas.

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>> Um

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it's just it just grew on me as

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something I didn't like the word

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potential and people say it as a um in

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hindsight, you know, oh, he had good

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potential, he could have been this, he

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could have been that. So, well, you

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still can

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>> just in something else maybe. That's

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just my little thing anyway.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I suppose that's

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something you've heard a lot. People

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would say um in particular with your um

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Yeah. I suppose like teenage years, they

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say you had a lot of potential and you

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sort of threw it all away.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. Does it sting a bit?

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>> Yeah. Oh, it stung for 10 years.

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>> And I uh Yeah. I think back to what I

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could have, should have, didn't

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>> and and where my mind is at now and what

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could have been. But actually where I am

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now is I wouldn't want to be anywhere

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else.

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>> It's um kind of worked out

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better than potentially how I could have

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been

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>> potential.

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It's been a a a hell of a a hell of a

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journey and a process uh to to become

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the man you are today that's sitting in

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front of me. And um Bros for Change,

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that's the other thing you're involved

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with. How do you how do you explain

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that? What's the elevator pitch for Bros

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for Change?

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>> Well, it was it was a really um

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inspiring way we came about that that

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name actually is uh me and the bro and

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we wanted to make change.

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So, so we were just two bros

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and we wanted to make change and we

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didn't want to complicate it and we're

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just two bros wanted to make change. So,

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there's the

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>> So, you settled on the name. No, no, but

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what does it name aside? What does it

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what does it mean and what do you do?

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>> Yeah. So actually uh it came about cuz

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we both worked in um in a in a system a

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a system that

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you know 9 to5

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babysitting

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doing all these things. Um

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and that was okay at start because at

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the start cuz I volunteered volunteered

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my time. I wanted to give back uh all

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all what I had. And then so yeah, we did

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that. And then once I sort of learned

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how it all works, I thought, man, I've

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got I've got more than I can that I want

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to give that I'm allowed to give. So So

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that didn't really work for me. Um I

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found myself just being kind of uh caged

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off in an area had you're allowed to do

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this and this and this and don't let

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them do that that that. And and to me

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that wasn't really that wasn't helping.

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that was just glorified babysitters.

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>> So, um me and the Brew Tiki Koopinger,

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we um he was there also. We s we kind of

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did some offsite uh peer supervision

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with ourselves and and some southern

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comfort at the time. And uh you know for

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about four years we just talked you know

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what would we do how do we do it what do

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we have what can we offer

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what can we take from what we've learned

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and um add value and and actually help.

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We don't want to put plasters on cuz

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they come off in a few days. We want to

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actually real real change you know. So

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that's what bro change is. It's not just

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a um

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>> you know a start date and a finish date

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contract. So you're you're building a

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relationship for a lifetime.

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>> It's uh Yeah.

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>> So who who are the bros that you're

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changing?

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>> Anyone?

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>> Um at the moment we kind of contracted

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with um the government to work with um

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that that are so-called needs which is

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not employed in enrolled or in training.

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Um but we take anyone from this

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particular program we call team of

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tong-o fresh start. We work with anyone

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from uh turning 15 that year to up to

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24.

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>> Um

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also other than that we work with anyone

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one-on-one who

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man anyone. When I say anyone, could be

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um in a single parent home, could be in

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a gang family, could be uh lacking

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confidence,

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uh school's not working for them. You

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know, there's no there's no exact type.

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It's a range of of different um

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different things where they might come

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into contact with us,

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>> right? So, so you're getting young

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people and you're basically um you're

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warning them about potholes along the

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road that you've learned from your own

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journey in life.

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>> Yeah, that Yep. Part of it we do we call

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that reality therapy. You know, the the

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therapy is your reality.

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>> So, uh it's all self-referred. Uh we

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don't we don't take referrals or or or

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court court sentence to to do our

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program because then they're not there

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because they want it. They're there

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because someone told them to do it.

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>> Yeah. They're ticking boxes. That's

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right. Yeah. So, we um we we might get

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30 odd registrations for a cohort and we

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can only take for our capacity up to 14.

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>> So, we have to like interview

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everyone and and then sort of decide who

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who's the best fit, who's going to

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benefit the most, who really needs this

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the most. And it's only it's only based

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off our assessment, but you know, we we

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get it wrong as well. M but

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>> yeah,

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>> that's the world, isn't it?

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>> Well, thanks for that um explanation. I

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think that sets the platform for the

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podcast. Um you're a good dude and

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you're doing some great stuff in the

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community. So, you got this amazing book

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and a warrior and um you spend your days

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um changing lives for the better with

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Bros for Change. So, now we can um start

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painting a picture of the the Jay story,

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the good, the bad, and the ugly. And

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there's plenty of each, right?

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. So, what are your earliest

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memories um of growing up as a a kid in

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Christ Church? Oh,

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>> I actually grew up in Oakuckland. Uh and

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I moved to Christ Church to get away

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from everyone.

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>> Oh, okay. Yes. So, I moved to Christ

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Church in 2009

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maybe, but I grew up in West Oakland. Um

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quite transient. Uh my earliest memories

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are

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chasing my sister to school. I wasn't

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five. Uh she was going to school and I

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used to chase her to school in in Tatoo

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Peninsula. M

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>> um other than that uh moving to fielding

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with my mother and

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um bunking school at that age and and

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running up the river and building huts

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and and uh getting into trouble and

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mischief.

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>> Those are my earliest uh childhood

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memories and sort of not really seeing

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my dad much just when he'd come for

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visits or or would would go up north.

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Um yeah, moved around the family, uncles

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and aunties and distant uncles and

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grapevine uncles and around the country.

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>> Fang, Christ Church,

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uh Palmyston, Oakland.

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>> Uh not really settled many different

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schools. Never really settled in school.

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Uh went to Rutherford and Calston,

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Calston boys. Uh back when uh what's an

00:09:05

old mate? Um All Black Coach was the

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principal there. Uh Graham Henry. Yeah.

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Yeah. Dead.

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>> Yep. Um

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so yeah, quite a quite a um transient

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kind of childhood. I uh no matter where

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I was though, I remember always finding

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um the league training and the league

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field

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>> late everywhere except for training.

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>> Yeah. So when you reflect on um on your

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childhood, Yeah. How would you describe

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it?

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>> Is it good memories?

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>> Fun. Yeah. Okay.

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>> Um, adventurous.

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>> Um,

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>> yeah, always fun. It was always fun. Um,

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got to hang out with all my cousins and

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moved around the country and was always

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looked after. You know, there's there's

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no reasons for me to go off the rails.

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>> So, you had a good start in life.

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>> Great start.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. Had mom and dad, had um never

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hungry, had um

00:10:08

didn't really have any friends. had a

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had a couple of dogs that I used to hang

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out with.

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>> You're just a loner.

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>> I was a bit of a loner.

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>> Quite quite a loner. My kind of fun I

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unofficially to my grandmother. So So

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she wasn't too mobile. I was I was too

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mobile. So we kind we kind of worked out

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there.

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Um yeah, she she brought me out for a

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few years. So that was it was awesome.

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>> Yeah. And what was your um relationship

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like growing up with your mold culture?

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uh kind of like pushed it away. Yeah,

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>> she was very strong uh her and my

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grandfather uh very strong um in the

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community in in T moldi and tadil and I

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just had no bar of it u for no reason no

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reason whatsoever. I just just wasn't

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relative to me at at that time. why

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it just wasn't

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um yeah it just you know other things

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were it's the same reason you know why

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didn't I go to school why didn't I stay

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at home

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>> yeah there was no really particular

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reason um I really regret not taking

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advantage of that now I wish I did cuz

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now now it's three times as hard to to

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get what I could have grown up with

00:11:26

>> hindsight's a wonderful thing though you

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can't you just can't live with too much

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regret. There's no point.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. It's

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>> a waste of waste of energy. So, you you

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mentioned um league before. Yeah. And

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you were really good, right? Like you

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were um in the uh Warriors under 19 like

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New Zealand age group teams. Who who are

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some of the you know the teammates or

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the people you played with that went on

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to become household names?

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>> Oh, household names. Uh Monty Betham, uh

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Aliti.

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Um, it was that era, you know, Henry

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Farfilly, Francis Melly, Clinton Torpi,

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we were like under 13s, Oakland age

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grade. Um,

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it was that era. It was um, it was I I I

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always say it was when league was great,

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>> but it was it was a golden era.

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>> Yeah. You could still shoulder charge.

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Uh,

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um, it was really tough. I was um I was

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I was physical but but my mind wasn't

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wasn't in it at the time. Uh

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so yeah, that was the the the

00:12:32

downside of not going to school was I I

00:12:34

lost sort of um

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uh my social cues and um yeah,

00:12:41

socializing with people. I wasn't really

00:12:43

too good at

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>> I still was still a bit awkward around

00:12:46

socializing. I prefer to sort of drift

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into the background or I feel more

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comfortable hanging out with with the

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theangut at work, you know, being a big

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a big kid.

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Um but yeah, you know, watching those

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guys, um from there, Odell Emanuel,

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um Kylie Ludai go and do great, you

00:13:12

know, become legends of the game. This

00:13:14

was really inspiring and uh

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>> kind of made me, you know, regret again

00:13:20

my decisions. But back then when I was

00:13:23

watching it, I was like, "Oh man, you

00:13:25

know, I could have, should have,

00:13:26

didn't." But but but now I understand.

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And well over it. Well over it. But took

00:13:34

a bit, you know, I was very sour and

00:13:36

bitter at myself for a long time.

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>> Yeah. No [ __ ] I can I can I can I can

00:13:40

see how you would. Yeah. I mean, you

00:13:42

don't hold anything against those guys

00:13:44

for their success, but you just beat

00:13:46

yourself up uh for throwing away this

00:13:48

incredible opportunity. is I mean

00:13:50

hypotheticals are they're difficult

00:13:52

things and they are kind of a waste of

00:13:53

time but is it fair to say you would

00:13:55

have you made the NRL?

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>> Um it's hard to say. I did have I did

00:14:00

have some contracts um or when I got out

00:14:04

actually when I got out of u my indoor

00:14:07

experience

00:14:09

>> I had Is that what we're calling it?

00:14:10

>> Yeah. Well, a lot of people do OE. I do

00:14:13

I

00:14:19

>> it's similar. I mean, you travel the

00:14:21

country,

00:14:22

>> you you meet like-minded people.

00:14:26

>> It's making jail sound kind of sexy and

00:14:28

all right.

00:14:28

>> Yeah.

00:14:29

>> Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. So, okay.

00:14:34

>> So, you were that good.

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>> So, what why did you start It's quite

00:14:39

funny. Yeah. Why did you start going off

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the rails?

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Yeah. Uh, like I said, I was um I was

00:14:46

very quiet growing up and and and a

00:14:49

loner and didn't really have any

00:14:53

schooling by my choice. I'd, you know,

00:14:55

get dropped off or taken to school and

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then walk out. Um,

00:15:01

for whatever reason, didn't cope there.

00:15:03

Um, and that followed on to, you know, I

00:15:07

was obviously big and physical. Um but

00:15:10

my mind wasn't able to cope with that.

00:15:14

You know that was a

00:15:15

>> when I think back to those times we go

00:15:17

to training we get all these gears and

00:15:20

you know S Panipo was doing all these

00:15:22

trainings and these supplements and it

00:15:25

was sometimes you know twice a day and

00:15:28

then uh jump on the plane and fly to

00:15:30

Australia.

00:15:32

It was a very very very different

00:15:35

environment from how I grew up and what

00:15:37

I knew.

00:15:38

>> And uh it was the 19s at the time. I was

00:15:42

still 16.

00:15:44

>> Um Wow.

00:15:45

>> Yeah. So

00:15:46

>> So you're 16 when you're playing with um

00:15:48

like you guys that are 18 almost 19.

00:15:51

>> Yeah. And they were they were big strong

00:15:53

guys.

00:15:53

>> That's Yeah. At that age that's a big

00:15:55

size difference.

00:15:56

>> Yeah. Yeah. I that's what I mean. I was

00:15:58

um I hadn't grown into my body yet

00:16:01

>> and the problem came when I figured out

00:16:03

how big I was and how strong I was.

00:16:06

>> Um and and I use that as my voice rather

00:16:09

than talking.

00:16:10

>> Um

00:16:12

so that became

00:16:15

uh both a savior and an issue.

00:16:20

>> Yeah. I I'm just struggling to see um

00:16:23

how you end up getting in so much

00:16:25

trouble when you had so much promise and

00:16:26

so much good stuff going on like you you

00:16:28

had this tribe with you know teammates

00:16:30

and these opportunities. So when when

00:16:33

did you start going off the rails?

00:16:36

>> Uh was it just a crew you were hanging

00:16:38

out with?

00:16:39

>> Well to be fair I I was stealing and

00:16:43

doing petty things

00:16:45

from a really young age like single

00:16:49

digit. I can't remember exactly. I'm not

00:16:51

going to say five because it's probably

00:16:52

a bit older. But, you know, before I was

00:16:55

10, I was stealing. I was stealing off

00:16:57

my family. I was stealing from shops. I

00:17:00

was um I was fighting. I was staying

00:17:04

out. You know, I kind of had no

00:17:06

boundaries.

00:17:07

>> Um that was a bit of a there was a

00:17:10

thrill thrill to me that kind of like

00:17:12

>> rebellious.

00:17:14

>> Yeah. I don't even know what I was

00:17:15

rebelling against, you know? I think it

00:17:17

just appealed to me more than the other

00:17:21

>> being good.

00:17:23

>> Yeah. Um so you know that just escalated

00:17:26

over time and it went went on to like um

00:17:30

I'd go out you know you know you ever

00:17:32

hear of that that one friend who always

00:17:34

gets into fights

00:17:36

>> and then that well that was me. I'd go

00:17:38

out and I'd be like man why are these

00:17:40

why why do I always get into fights?

00:17:42

Well well it was me. Um, so I was that

00:17:45

guy and and you know I figured out later

00:17:48

that people never took me anywhere

00:17:50

because I'd just get into a fight. You

00:17:51

know I was that guy. Um that you know

00:17:55

getting into fights, fighting in public

00:17:57

um

00:17:59

uh doing things where the police would

00:18:00

be called and then you know assaulting

00:18:03

police would would get me locked up and

00:18:05

and to court and into uh what do they

00:18:10

call it? Uh working for the working for

00:18:12

the community.

00:18:14

So, I've been serving the community for

00:18:15

years.

00:18:18

You jump in the van, you got your

00:18:20

trailer and your wheelbarrows and and

00:18:22

you go off and,

00:18:23

>> you know, you you're you're in a van

00:18:25

with like-minded people,

00:18:27

>> you know, and and you make connections

00:18:28

and uh if you're thinking the same, then

00:18:31

you know, it's easy to build friendships

00:18:33

and and from there you you you go to

00:18:36

other places or you learn things and and

00:18:38

everything just ex escalates until

00:18:42

you know you do something very serious

00:18:44

like like what I did.

00:18:47

because it seems like there's a lot of

00:18:48

like you talk about getting in fights

00:18:49

there and you know getting getting

00:18:51

locked up and going to court for a lot

00:18:52

of people that would be that would

00:18:54

potentially be the rock bottom or you

00:18:56

know the turning point but you just had

00:18:58

to sort of keep on going didn't you?

00:19:00

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I and and when I think

00:19:03

back if I didn't get caught

00:19:05

>> I would have kept going.

00:19:06

>> So I'm really glad that I did get

00:19:08

caught.

00:19:09

>> Um

00:19:11

>> that's right. Normally people stop when

00:19:13

they get arrested, they go to court,

00:19:14

they get sentenced to uh home D or pay a

00:19:19

fine or or or whatever it is. They're

00:19:21

like, "Okay, I'm going to change my

00:19:22

life."

00:19:23

>> But but for me, it was like,

00:19:26

"Okay, what? Now what? Oh, do that." You

00:19:30

know, just keeps escalating until

00:19:33

>> you're a slow learner.

00:19:34

>> Yeah.

00:19:35

>> Just enjoy it.

00:19:36

>> Well,

00:19:37

>> combination.

00:19:38

>> Yeah. you know, like I was I was

00:19:40

transient, you know, I wasn't settled.

00:19:42

>> You're lost.

00:19:43

>> Yeah. I had no identity. I I turned away

00:19:46

from it. I wasn't settled. I had no

00:19:49

home. I had plenty of homes, but no

00:19:51

home. No homestead.

00:19:53

>> Um I was a loner. Um this side this side

00:19:57

of the the railway tracks um

00:20:01

became like a family. you know, I'd meet

00:20:03

people, we would think the same, we

00:20:05

would connect, and off we would go. So,

00:20:10

>> um, makes sense to me.

00:20:13

>> If you, if you haven't done it, it it it

00:20:17

it's probably hard to to fathom, you

00:20:19

know, why why keep continuing. Um, which

00:20:22

I get.

00:20:24

>> Um,

00:20:25

>> and no, no, no, no judgment. I'm just

00:20:26

trying to I'm trying to understand. Um,

00:20:30

>> yeah. Um, I mean, we've only been going

00:20:32

for like 20 minutes, but um, yeah, I

00:20:34

mean, you're a really good speaker and

00:20:36

you're funny and you're articulate. Um,

00:20:39

yeah, I'm guessing it hasn't always been

00:20:41

like this and it's taken a while to to

00:20:43

get to this point.

00:20:44

>> Yeah. Well, part of my work is talking

00:20:46

about it. And talking about it actually

00:20:49

led me to the book, you know, so it

00:20:53

hasn't been anything I've shied away

00:20:54

from

00:20:55

>> getting out of prison. At first, it was

00:20:57

um,

00:20:59

>> hide away. I've been in prison.

00:21:01

>> Yeah. Shame.

00:21:02

>> Shame. Yeah. 100%. Shame on me. Shame on

00:21:05

my family. Shame on the victims. Um but

00:21:09

but now I've come to a point where it's

00:21:11

actually my strength. You know, I call

00:21:14

on those things to

00:21:16

um not only keep me here, but bring

00:21:19

others in and and and give back my

00:21:22

experiences and and bros for change. The

00:21:24

key of it is, you know, I did it hard to

00:21:26

hopefully use gun can do it easy. Um,

00:21:29

learn from me or or not.

00:21:32

>> Up to you.

00:21:33

>> But this is where it's going to end if

00:21:35

you don't learn from me.

00:21:36

>> Yeah. At least I can say, "Well, yeah,

00:21:38

you could do that, but this is what will

00:21:39

happen." And they're like, "No, I'll be

00:21:40

all right. You went to prison and you're

00:21:42

all right." I said, "Yeah, but you're

00:21:43

not me. You know, you got to do your own

00:21:44

yards."

00:21:45

>> Yeah. Yeah. Also, I mean, it's better to

00:21:48

not be in prison than be in prison,

00:21:50

right?

00:21:50

>> That's right.

00:21:51

>> Yeah.

00:21:51

>> Yeah.

00:21:51

>> So, do you remember your your first

00:21:53

armed robbery?

00:21:54

>> Yes.

00:21:54

>> Yeah. What was it? It's like service

00:21:56

station in Mount Roscoll or something.

00:21:57

>> Yep. Yep. I remember it. Um,

00:21:59

>> how old were you?

00:22:01

>> Probably 19. 19. Um,

00:22:04

>> so this is when you were playing really

00:22:05

good league.

00:22:07

>> Yeah, I actually um I actually was

00:22:10

playing really good league and then I

00:22:11

just gave it up and started fighting.

00:22:13

Um,

00:22:16

I don't even know why. I know why. It

00:22:18

was probably cuz I was just with that

00:22:20

crowd who were fighting. Um,

00:22:23

>> so I started training as a fighter which

00:22:26

took me away from league. um which is a

00:22:30

shame which kind of led me down other

00:22:33

paths.

00:22:34

>> Um yeah, I remember that night I

00:22:37

remember um just saying out loud, "Oh,

00:22:40

we should rob we should rob a

00:22:44

uh petrol station, whatever." And then

00:22:48

uh guys guys who I was with, could have

00:22:51

been two, could have been five guys,

00:22:53

can't remember. Um they they kind of

00:22:55

like

00:22:57

like, "Haha, that'll be cool. Haha." But

00:22:59

then saying it out loud actually made it

00:23:01

real.

00:23:03

And then um

00:23:05

yeah, I actually planned it. I was like,

00:23:07

"Oh, why don't we just try and do this

00:23:09

one and just uh get money and smokes and

00:23:15

um it was really it was really

00:23:18

pre-planned like how we would go in,

00:23:22

which ways we could run to, where we

00:23:25

would park the car."

00:23:27

Um

00:23:29

for me, I was like, "Yeah, quite

00:23:31

detailed and and all of that." And then

00:23:34

I remember lying in the bushes looking

00:23:36

at it and looking and I could see up and

00:23:39

down the road. It was, you know, it was

00:23:41

dark at night. I could see up and down

00:23:43

the road and you could see cars, lights,

00:23:47

and you could see clearly the the

00:23:49

service station.

00:23:51

And I remember having a few false starts

00:23:54

like trying to get up the courage to

00:23:55

actually run in there. And it took me

00:23:59

three or four goes and then, you know, a

00:24:01

car would come or someone would pull in

00:24:04

and then there was just a moment of

00:24:06

silence. No cars, no nothing. And then I

00:24:09

just got up and ran in. Um,

00:24:13

and just just the rush of adrenaline

00:24:19

uh that I got from it, I think, is what

00:24:22

fueled me to do it again to to find that

00:24:25

feeling again. What did you what did you

00:24:26

get from it in terms of um like smokes

00:24:29

or money?

00:24:30

>> Yeah, smokes and money.

00:24:31

>> How much? Do you not know how much or

00:24:33

>> what whatever was in the tool which

00:24:35

wasn't much and you know try and clear

00:24:39

out all the all the cigarettes and and

00:24:41

all that which we would

00:24:43

>> sell on for for more money later.

00:24:46

>> But

00:24:46

>> what did you want the money for? Did you

00:24:48

have addiction issues at the time or?

00:24:50

>> No, never really did. I tried tried

00:24:53

every drug a couple of times uh but

00:24:55

never really stayed on anything.

00:24:57

>> Yeah.

00:24:57

>> Uh all of these crimes I was um sober

00:25:02

sober and drug free. It was um my drug

00:25:04

was the adrenaline, you know. Um

00:25:07

>> still today I have that addiction to

00:25:09

adrenaline. I just do other things

00:25:10

instead. But

00:25:14

>> yeah, it wasn't even money at the We

00:25:17

wanted to get money and things, but we

00:25:19

wanted the thrill

00:25:20

>> and we got the thrill and that and that

00:25:23

fed us to do another one.

00:25:24

>> So, who went into that first one? Was it

00:25:26

just you that ran into the into the

00:25:27

survey?

00:25:28

>> Uh, we all did.

00:25:29

>> Yeah,

00:25:29

>> we all did.

00:25:30

>> And can you remember who who was

00:25:31

working? Um, like a guy or a girl?

00:25:34

>> It was a guy. What sort of age?

00:25:36

>> It was a guy. He was um middleaged. Um,

00:25:41

>> what do you say? What do you say when

00:25:43

you run in?

00:25:44

>> Be intimidating as [ __ ]

00:25:46

>> I can't imag I'd [ __ ] piss myself, I

00:25:49

reckon.

00:25:50

>> Yeah, I think it's I think I think the

00:25:53

dangerous part of us was the

00:25:55

recklessness.

00:25:57

And

00:25:59

uh when I look at other crimes that have

00:26:01

happened that have ended quite

00:26:03

differently,

00:26:04

>> it was the same scenario for us. We

00:26:07

never mean to

00:26:09

hurt anyone or cause. We don't know. I

00:26:13

didn't know at the time

00:26:15

>> the

00:26:17

>> the stress or the from not actually

00:26:19

touching someone, just us running in

00:26:21

there bac

00:26:24

with a gun uh and demanding

00:26:27

everything they had.

00:26:29

>> Yeah. Yeah. So that I suppose they're

00:26:31

considered like nonviolent crimes, but

00:26:33

um yeah, you're you're the villain and

00:26:37

and other people's story and uh you

00:26:39

probably remain that way for life. Like

00:26:41

[ __ ] I can't imagine how scary that

00:26:42

would be for those people

00:26:43

>> just doing their job.

00:26:44

>> Yep. And it took me years to understand

00:26:48

>> who the real victims were. um you know

00:26:51

even going to prison and people who

00:26:55

visit me you know how hard how hard it

00:26:57

is for them to to come and and visit. So

00:27:01

yeah know everywhere it's just a

00:27:04

a trail of bodies.

00:27:07

>> I use bodies cuz it's easy to see

00:27:08

victims when you like

00:27:10

>> create carnage and everyone's lying down

00:27:12

behind you you know um in different

00:27:14

ways.

00:27:14

>> Yeah. The psychological scarring. So you

00:27:16

end up doing um a total of 15 armed

00:27:19

robberies. all like that first one.

00:27:21

>> Yeah, it's uh pretty much.

00:27:23

>> Yep.

00:27:24

>> Yep. Um we got I feel like we got better

00:27:29

and more efficient and then we got the

00:27:33

novelty ran off wore off and we got we

00:27:38

we didn't get as we had to keep upping

00:27:40

it to to get the same uh adrenaline. Um

00:27:45

which was the the dangerous part. you

00:27:47

know, we were thinking about other

00:27:49

things as well. So,

00:27:51

>> other things like

00:27:52

>> bigger targets.

00:27:54

>> Okay.

00:27:54

>> Yeah. More money. Um

00:27:56

>> higher stakes.

00:27:57

>> Higher stakes, higher thrills, higher

00:27:59

risks. Um

00:28:02

yeah, higher conse consequences. Um

00:28:05

that's what that's what I mean. I'm glad

00:28:07

I got caught because um

00:28:10

>> yeah, that was just the time

00:28:14

>> in a in a in a sense in a in a weird

00:28:17

twisted sort of way. It's almost like

00:28:18

this this became your new sport. E

00:28:21

>> 100%.

00:28:22

>> Yeah, it had everything. It had

00:28:25

everything and more I would get out of

00:28:26

it. Um including

00:28:28

>> a team.

00:28:29

>> Yeah.

00:28:30

>> Your little team.

00:28:31

>> Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes individual,

00:28:32

sometimes a team.

00:28:34

>> And we all had positions.

00:28:38

Did you have a coach? You didn't have a

00:28:39

coach.

00:28:40

>> Oh, we had uh we had uh team

00:28:41

supervision.

00:28:42

>> Yeah,

00:28:42

>> we had peer support.

00:28:44

>> So, did you um

00:28:47

>> So, you didn't get caught. You did 15

00:28:49

before you got caught.

00:28:51

>> Uh yeah. And we were actually uh we

00:28:53

actually dopped in um

00:28:57

cuz I was with someone and

00:29:01

I had a I had a gun on me at the time.

00:29:03

We're in a taxi and I I was going to

00:29:06

pull the taxi up, you know, and they

00:29:08

were like they were in the they were in

00:29:10

it was a van. They were in the taxi.

00:29:11

They're like and I got dobbed in on my

00:29:14

alias

00:29:14

>> which at the time was Seymour and I

00:29:16

actually saw a statement saying Seymour

00:29:18

and I kind of rounded it off to a few

00:29:20

people but

00:29:23

it's good.

00:29:24

>> I'm glad they did. Uh and from that led

00:29:27

to, you know, an investigation which led

00:29:31

them to me. Um which is also good.

00:29:35

>> Yeah. Cuz I was escalating.

00:29:38

Yep.

00:29:38

>> So did um So were all your co-offenders

00:29:41

arrested at the same time?

00:29:44

>> Um

00:29:47

potentially. I did see I did see um a

00:29:50

few guys throughout my uh IE around New

00:29:53

Zealand. Um,

00:29:55

>> what's internal inside experience?

00:29:57

>> Indoor experience.

00:29:59

>> Yeah.

00:30:02

>> Do you do you um do you do you call it

00:30:04

that like because it's funny or just cuz

00:30:06

it like saying prison or jail is just

00:30:08

more embarrassing or harder to say or

00:30:10

>> I think all of that and I think it's a

00:30:12

way to um

00:30:14

um

00:30:16

cuz you know I'll say I'll say something

00:30:18

to someone and they'll be like but if I

00:30:20

say it in a way where it's uh it's kind

00:30:23

of non-threatening. I don't know. What

00:30:24

do you think?

00:30:24

>> It's cute.

00:30:26

>> Exactly. So, it's more It's kind of more

00:30:28

approachable. It obviously wasn't like

00:30:31

that. It's just It's just what I say,

00:30:32

you know. It's um

00:30:34

>> Yeah, I'm still a big kid.

00:30:37

>> So, so the moment you get arrested, is

00:30:38

is that a dramatic thing?

00:30:41

Um,

00:30:43

I remember talking with my cousin

00:30:44

actually two months ago about it and I

00:30:48

still can't

00:30:51

you can't I I kind of black out in a

00:30:53

part of it because it's all kind of

00:30:55

surreal. Uh there was armed defenders up

00:30:58

in the trees and stuff and oh this is

00:31:00

serious surrounding the house and I'm

00:31:02

just I'm just sitting at the window and

00:31:04

um

00:31:06

this my cousin's telling me this

00:31:07

actually because it's a lady they know

00:31:10

came up the drive and she wasn't like

00:31:14

it's the police it was like killano

00:31:19

uh it's blah blah blah

00:31:21

which was a more friendly

00:31:24

>> because obviously they didn't know who I

00:31:26

and I'm running around um

00:31:28

>> running around with a gun

00:31:29

>> doing armed robberies. So, they're like,

00:31:31

"Hey, we need to take all precautions,

00:31:32

I'm guessing."

00:31:34

>> Um

00:31:35

but once they once they came in and sort

00:31:38

of went through the house and and and

00:31:41

found what they found and took me in,

00:31:44

um you know, the gigs up. I didn't I

00:31:47

didn't fight anything. I didn't um

00:31:51

struggle or try and run away. I just

00:31:53

went through the process and and I was

00:31:55

ready for my IE.

00:31:59

>> But what's what's that? So, you're how

00:32:01

old at this time? Like 20?

00:32:02

>> Uh 19 or something?

00:32:04

>> I think I just turned 20. Uh

00:32:06

>> yep. I was 20 and a half cuz I went

00:32:08

straight to men's.

00:32:10

>> Uh which was 20 at the time.

00:32:12

>> What's that like? Um that moment

00:32:13

immediately going from um you having

00:32:15

your freedom to losing it.

00:32:18

I'll tell you, it's a it's a funny story

00:32:20

to me, but I remember this was a Friday

00:32:23

and I had this bottle of Kuruba rum

00:32:25

sitting on my shelf and I was like,

00:32:27

"Yeah, I can't wait to sink into that

00:32:29

tonight." And when they arrested me and

00:32:31

took me took me to the S, I was like I

00:32:34

was like, "Damn, I really wanted to

00:32:35

drink that rum."

00:32:38

>> That Yeah, it's quite that that's quite

00:32:40

funny, but it also says a lot about, you

00:32:41

know, just your head space at the time.

00:32:43

>> That's what I say. It's like that's just

00:32:45

where I was at, you know, and um

00:32:47

>> when I think about it now, I'm like what

00:32:49

a [ __ ] [ __ ] Sorry. But you know,

00:32:51

>> it's it's podcasting.

00:32:53

>> And I was just like, man, what are you

00:32:55

what are you up to?

00:32:56

>> But

00:32:58

that's why I did all the things I did.

00:32:59

That's where I was at. That's where the

00:33:01

mind was. But um

00:33:03

>> but yeah, you know, I went for the

00:33:05

process, got they took me to um Ponibby

00:33:08

Road to the um medical center to get

00:33:12

um tested bloods and and all that. And

00:33:15

then I wasn't handcuffed either. I was

00:33:17

just kind of just kind of strolling cops

00:33:19

behind me. I think they were mufty. And

00:33:22

then they took me to Oakland Central and

00:33:25

uh locked me up. And I remember the next

00:33:27

morning quite clearly cuz um in the

00:33:30

morning they put you all in the um like

00:33:31

a big day room.

00:33:34

Um

00:33:36

and they they they open the door and

00:33:39

they they back the the van up for court

00:33:41

or the bus or

00:33:42

>> Conro, whatever they call it.

00:33:44

>> And you line up and you walk on and

00:33:46

there's big there's big island cop there

00:33:48

standing standing at the door with a

00:33:50

list. And as people are going on, it's

00:33:52

like name.

00:33:54

Oh yeah, you'll get bail. Next one.

00:33:56

Name. Yeah, good judge on. You might you

00:33:59

might go to prison. And then I remember

00:34:01

I walking up. He's like, pie, you're

00:34:04

definitely going to jail.

00:34:07

>> Oh, cuz he's in the charge robberies.

00:34:10

Yeah.

00:34:10

>> Wow.

00:34:11

>> So, I thought that was um

00:34:14

>> I I'd accepted it like, you know, I had

00:34:16

all night to kind of prepare myself not

00:34:20

even knowing what I'm preparing for, you

00:34:22

know. M.

00:34:23

>> So are you in remand before you before

00:34:25

you you caught stuff or are you just

00:34:28

caught

00:34:28

>> guilty straight to

00:34:30

>> Yeah, I went to um back then it was ACP

00:34:34

Oakland Central Remar Prison which is

00:34:36

next to Mount Eden. It was back then it

00:34:38

was this nice new flash toy, right?

00:34:41

>> Oh, that's the one that's right uh right

00:34:42

on the side of the motorway next to

00:34:43

Oakland Grammar.

00:34:45

>> Is that the one?

00:34:45

>> When you go down Lauder Road and you got

00:34:48

the castle at the back, uh this is the

00:34:50

first one,

00:34:51

>> right? You go past that into

00:34:53

>> I went there yesterday

00:34:55

>> just have a look. Um

00:34:58

>> what for?

00:34:59

>> I had I had my kids I actually told I

00:35:01

actually took my kids took my kids to

00:35:02

Parmo

00:35:05

>> and I told them I said this where you go

00:35:06

when you're naughty and they were like

00:35:08

you know asking me heaps of questions.

00:35:10

>> So I never hide from it. just be honest

00:35:12

with it and and and tell him

00:35:15

>> I didn't tell him what I did but you

00:35:16

know I was dad was naughty and

00:35:19

>> this is where you end up.

00:35:21

>> Did Did you spend time in Pim Perime?

00:35:24

>> Yeah, I was in Maxi,

00:35:25

>> right? Were you?

00:35:26

>> Yep.

00:35:27

>> Um the second time I went in,

00:35:28

>> right?

00:35:29

>> The second time. Oh my god. Um like

00:35:33

you're you're a big um and intimidating

00:35:35

dude. Um so I mean you could look after

00:35:38

yourself, but is that still a terrifying

00:35:40

place to be? Yep. I was scared. I was uh

00:35:45

it's a it's a funny scared you know when

00:35:47

you say scared you you some people think

00:35:49

oh you you know you were like quivering

00:35:51

and all that and it's like

00:35:54

scared

00:35:55

you you know like if you're going to

00:35:56

have a fight in a ring I'm sure there's

00:35:58

an element of scaredness which keeps you

00:36:00

sharp

00:36:01

>> if you know what I mean. So it was it

00:36:03

was that it was that scared of um

00:36:06

I was coming off the streets as well. So

00:36:09

there's always that you know looking

00:36:10

over your shoulder and and and

00:36:13

um

00:36:15

and keeping yourself all right but you

00:36:18

know the big boys are there. I was just

00:36:21

a petty

00:36:23

>> in the big scheme of things. Yeah.

00:36:24

>> Yeah. In the big scheme of things I was

00:36:27

on a honeymoon. You know you guys up

00:36:28

there turning up. What'd you get bro?

00:36:30

And I was like, "Oh, 6 years. What about

00:36:32

you?" "Oh, 30. Holy, you pillar of

00:36:36

strength."

00:36:38

>> Yeah. 6 years. Not even worth unpacking

00:36:40

your bag.

00:36:41

>> Yeah. They're like, "Oh, honeymoon."

00:36:45

>> You know what I mean? So, it's kind of

00:36:46

in the scheme of things. Uh I I I felt

00:36:49

like I didn't belong there.

00:36:51

>> Um

00:36:53

but, uh

00:36:55

>> obviously there's other there's people

00:36:56

there that may probably belong there.

00:36:59

Mhm.

00:37:00

>> It was uh

00:37:02

it was an experience.

00:37:04

>> Were you were you mixing with anyone

00:37:06

that was like um your high profile?

00:37:08

>> Yeah, it seems high profiles at the

00:37:10

time. Um

00:37:14

the the the the samurai guy was there,

00:37:18

>> Anthony Dixon.

00:37:19

>> Um the guy who did the executions was

00:37:23

there, the young guy, um

00:37:26

ASB and all that. Yeah,

00:37:28

>> they were they were all there um

00:37:32

>> and everyone in between.

00:37:34

>> So, um

00:37:35

>> I ran into a guy

00:37:37

>> uh I'd ran into him previously before I

00:37:39

got to Perry and then he turned up at

00:37:41

Perry and I was like, "Oh, hey, nice to

00:37:44

see you again

00:37:46

in in a way that you do." And and and uh

00:37:48

he goes, "Oh, I just got PD, which is

00:37:51

parent detention,

00:37:54

>> which means that they prevent you from

00:37:55

getting out." And I was like, "Wow." And

00:37:58

he was very

00:38:01

You wouldn't think that was the face of

00:38:04

someone who's never getting out.

00:38:05

>> Who was Who was that?

00:38:07

>> You know what? I forgot his name.

00:38:09

>> Yeah.

00:38:10

>> I actually prefer not to say the names,

00:38:11

you know.

00:38:12

>> Fair enough. Yeah. Preventative

00:38:13

detention. That's reserved for the worst

00:38:15

of the worst. E.

00:38:16

>> Yeah. But

00:38:17

>> I never had a problem with him. He was a

00:38:19

nice guy,

00:38:21

>> you know. Um

00:38:23

>> obviously wasn't. No, but there's

00:38:25

there's no no one's 100% perfect and no

00:38:27

one's 100% evil either.

00:38:29

>> Yeah.

00:38:30

>> Um

00:38:30

>> Yeah.

00:38:31

>> Yes. Just going back to the court thing

00:38:33

and then we'll we'll go back on the

00:38:34

incarceration stuff. So um so you're in

00:38:36

court. So the um so the the final

00:38:39

sentence is what? Cuz you end up serving

00:38:40

six years, eh?

00:38:41

>> Yeah. I got sentenced to um

00:38:44

4 years 10 months.

00:38:45

>> Yeah.

00:38:46

>> For those 15. I got discounted for

00:38:50

uh ownership

00:38:52

>> and youth and potential

00:38:57

being in the in the warriors. Um

00:39:01

>> and I was

00:39:05

I served 3 years 10 months of that. I

00:39:08

call it four years. Um

00:39:11

>> so I was released on uh 200

00:39:16

199

00:39:18

94 2004 2004

00:39:23

>> I was released um

00:39:28

after serving 3 years 3 years and 10

00:39:30

months which was 2/3 of my sentence

00:39:33

whatever that worked out at

00:39:35

>> um there was no good behavior was like

00:39:37

you get sentenced you serve you serve

00:39:40

twothirds of it and then you and then

00:39:41

you get released to some conditions and

00:39:44

I got

00:39:46

I got 350 bucks steps to freedom uh when

00:39:50

I got out and I think I just pissed it

00:39:53

up. I got released from uh in

00:39:58

>> central North Island.

00:40:00

>> Yeah. at Turangi

00:40:01

>> M

00:40:01

>> underneath Mount Uru Peru and got picked

00:40:05

up and my mate he came down on the V8

00:40:08

and and did a big we did a big wheelie

00:40:10

on the way out and then we're off, you

00:40:12

know, and it was

00:40:15

Yeah. And I was out and I I got out

00:40:20

with an ego um with more connections

00:40:25

with um

00:40:27

the same attitude that I went in with,

00:40:30

you know, I didn't I had I hadn't

00:40:32

matured. I hadn't grown up. I just met

00:40:34

some more people.

00:40:36

>> And And you you were bigger. I've heard

00:40:37

you describe yourself as um looking like

00:40:39

a stop sign because you've done so many

00:40:41

pre-ups.

00:40:42

Well, that's that's relevance to missing

00:40:44

leg day,

00:40:45

>> right?

00:40:49

>> Yeah.

00:40:50

>> Yeah.

00:40:51

>> Yeah. I So, you get you get that

00:40:53

sentence. Um, and at that age, four

00:40:56

years is a long time, right? That's that

00:40:58

represents like 20% of the life that

00:41:00

you've already already lived. Um, so it

00:41:02

seems like an impossibly long time

00:41:06

when that door shuts and logs.

00:41:09

Yeah. What's that moment like?

00:41:12

Uh the very first time I got shut behind

00:41:15

a cell in in prison

00:41:19

that it was it was the it was ah you

00:41:23

know and I came back to the rum cuz it

00:41:27

was the next day and I oh that would

00:41:30

have been the Friday actually I got

00:41:31

locked up in prison so I would have got

00:41:32

arrested on Thursday Wednesday or

00:41:34

Thursday

00:41:35

>> but

00:41:36

yeah again and then I was like oh well

00:41:39

I'll start training

00:41:41

So yeah, just started doing press ups

00:41:44

and um sparring in cell and um

00:41:49

learning learning inside life cuz

00:41:53

there's a lot to learn. You got to learn

00:41:55

everything without asking questions.

00:41:58

>> What do you mean? Can you elaborate on

00:42:00

that?

00:42:00

>> Well,

00:42:02

you you got to just stick to your own

00:42:03

business. You know, you don't want to

00:42:04

you don't want to walk in and you see

00:42:06

something going on there and you walk

00:42:07

over like, "Oh, what's going on over

00:42:08

here?" and then you know it can get you

00:42:10

into trouble. So you just kind of you

00:42:13

worry about yourself, you mind your own

00:42:14

business and um you know you should you

00:42:17

should be okay really. Yeah.

00:42:21

Yeah. So you know it's usually I knew

00:42:23

when I first went in I met I met a guy I

00:42:25

played league with years ago and um he

00:42:28

kind of he kind of gave me a rundown on

00:42:31

you know oh yeah you're all good you

00:42:33

know hang out over here and oh we're

00:42:36

going for a game of crash and and all

00:42:38

that. So,

00:42:38

>> what's crash?

00:42:40

>> Um, it's like leg

00:42:42

in in four concrete walls or it's like

00:42:45

league without passes.

00:42:50

You can pass. It's um

00:42:53

Yeah, you just kind of run. I learned

00:42:55

very quickly to stay in the middle

00:42:58

because if you're down the side you can

00:42:59

get like pushed into the wall or I did I

00:43:02

remember at the mount in Mount Eden in

00:43:04

the um south yard on one side there's

00:43:07

like metal pillars that go up and

00:43:09

there's uh like a tin roof and and sort

00:43:13

of seats and people can sit under there.

00:43:15

There's a phone.

00:43:17

I remember one guy, he was like he he

00:43:19

broke a tackle and was running up and

00:43:22

passing the pillars

00:43:24

and then I don't know where it came

00:43:26

from. Someone hit him and then he just

00:43:29

hit the puller with his head and he

00:43:31

shook the whole roof. He was like, you

00:43:34

know, like if you run into metal

00:43:37

and I was like, "What?" He got up. I was

00:43:39

like, "Wow, stay in the middle."

00:43:42

>> Where where is the fun in this game? We

00:43:45

>> I think it's just another measure, you

00:43:47

know. It's uh

00:43:50

>> Yeah, it's fun when you're on the other

00:43:52

end of it.

00:43:54

>> Oh, yeah.

00:43:55

>> But those first few nights on yourself,

00:43:57

like um Yeah. Yeah. How like are you

00:43:59

homesick? Like are you feeling

00:44:01

devastated?

00:44:03

>> I think you I think you come to terms. I

00:44:05

think you always miss

00:44:08

you miss things. Uh where I was it was

00:44:11

it was fully enclosed concrete. There

00:44:13

was no grass. It was uh fake light and

00:44:17

air con. So you get pale. Um

00:44:22

you miss the grass. I missed the grass.

00:44:26

Um

00:44:27

>> yeah. And I was there. I went from there

00:44:29

to Mount Eden and back to there to serve

00:44:31

my sentence in the rem prison in the

00:44:33

kitchen.

00:44:34

>> Um

00:44:36

so yeah, I was there for most of my

00:44:39

sentence. It wasn't until I got to the

00:44:41

last few months I was like, "Send me to

00:44:45

the camps. Bit of freedom." Um,

00:44:49

so yeah, I mean it's

00:44:52

it's, you know, it is what it is. If

00:44:54

that's a thing,

00:44:56

>> you just uh you adapt. You adapt and you

00:44:59

can um make the most of it or you can

00:45:02

feel sorry for yourself and stay in your

00:45:04

cell.

00:45:07

>> Yeah. There's a saying that I've heard,

00:45:08

but

00:45:09

I I don't fully understand it and I

00:45:11

suppose you only would fully understand

00:45:12

it if you've been incarcerated. Excuse

00:45:15

me. The saying is something like um you

00:45:17

have to serve your time or your time

00:45:18

serves you.

00:45:20

>> Have you heard that saying? Do you know

00:45:21

what it means?

00:45:21

>> Yeah.

00:45:22

>> How what would that mean to you?

00:45:26

>> Uh stick to yourself.

00:45:28

>> Do your own time. Don't worry about

00:45:30

what's happening over here. If you start

00:45:32

worrying about someone else's time, then

00:45:35

>> you might get caught up in someone

00:45:37

else's time.

00:45:39

Um,

00:45:40

sometimes it's hard to do when you're

00:45:43

you're in a enclosed in a you know, you

00:45:46

got a captive audience and you're in a

00:45:48

uh a block of

00:45:52

20 to 60 guys that you see. They say

00:45:56

5 years with your cellmates, like 15

00:45:58

years with your family

00:45:59

>> cuz you there's no escape. M um

00:46:04

well I can agree with you know I got

00:46:06

some really tight bonds with some some

00:46:08

good mates um from there.

00:46:12

>> Is it is it a violent place?

00:46:14

>> Can be.

00:46:15

>> Yeah.

00:46:16

>> I saw a lot. Um I didn't do a lot.

00:46:20

>> You managed to avoid it.

00:46:21

>> Yeah. Yeah. I was uh I just worked I was

00:46:24

in the kitchen most of the time which

00:46:26

was great because I wasn't hungry. I was

00:46:29

I was starving in in up in Maxi.

00:46:33

>> Um

00:46:33

>> yeah, because you're you're you're a big

00:46:35

unit. I mean the um I'm guessing the

00:46:37

portions are quite small.

00:46:39

>> They're everything you need to survive,

00:46:41

>> right? Nothing more.

00:46:43

>> And nothing more.

00:46:44

>> Nothing more.

00:46:45

>> Yeah. Yeah. I watched my kids like this

00:46:49

morning. They had cocoa pops and toast.

00:46:50

And I remember

00:46:52

I remember in in PM it was uh two toast

00:46:57

maybe three. and two we pick and that

00:47:00

would sustain you till unless you had

00:47:03

snacks which you could purchase which

00:47:04

you know

00:47:05

>> not everyone did.

00:47:07

>> Um

00:47:10

working in the kitchen obviously has its

00:47:11

perks.

00:47:12

>> Um

00:47:15

yeah, I tell you what, you know, I

00:47:16

learned I've been to a lot of uh

00:47:19

educational um institutions since the

00:47:23

most I ever learned was in prison. M

00:47:25

>> the most I the most I use in my life

00:47:28

today is from prison

00:47:30

>> and in in terms of good stuff.

00:47:32

>> Yeah. Like not not like people I met and

00:47:35

and tips and tricks of how to

00:47:37

>> rob banks or anything. Yeah. It's more

00:47:39

about um

00:47:40

>> life skills and things.

00:47:41

>> Life skills,

00:47:43

bigger picture, looking at the bigger

00:47:45

picture.

00:47:46

Um,

00:47:48

you know, I used to be quite um I get

00:47:51

quite aggravated and agitated quite

00:47:54

easily. Now I'm very Now it's hard or I

00:47:59

avoid it. So if I start getting if I

00:48:02

feel like there's a situation where I'm

00:48:04

getting worked up, I'll just totally

00:48:06

disappear. M um that's that's my

00:48:09

strategy because there you know you're

00:48:11

for me it was happy happy friendly big

00:48:14

kid or smash your hedon so I had to just

00:48:18

I had to just disappear over here.

00:48:21

>> Yeah. I mean there's no doubt about it.

00:48:22

You've done the work. That's the thing.

00:48:24

No one can no one you have to change.

00:48:27

Like no one else can do it for you.

00:48:29

>> That's right. Yeah.

00:48:30

>> Um I suppose that's like going back to

00:48:32

what you were saying at the beginning

00:48:33

with Bros for Change. It's like, you

00:48:34

know, the these these bros have to make

00:48:37

the change themselves. You can give them

00:48:38

the tips and the tools, but they got to

00:48:40

do it.

00:48:40

>> It's the old saying, you know, you got

00:48:42

all these uh take all these horses down

00:48:44

to the water, but if they don't want to

00:48:46

drink,

00:48:46

>> 100%

00:48:47

>> they're not going to drink.

00:48:48

>> Yeah.

00:48:48

>> So, same same principle, same concept.

00:48:51

>> What was um something or some things you

00:48:54

saw inside or experience that um people

00:48:56

on the outside would find it hard to

00:48:57

believe?

00:48:59

Uh, so I I didn't see, but I heard a guy

00:49:02

get beat to death and I saw them I saw

00:49:05

the body get carried out the next

00:49:06

morning. Um, it was weird to me because

00:49:10

no one came to help him. We couldn't, we

00:49:13

were locked up,

00:49:14

>> but we could hear it. Uh,

00:49:17

and then yeah, we stayed locked up in

00:49:18

the morning and they just carried him

00:49:20

out and uh, yeah, never saw him again.

00:49:22

And

00:49:24

the guy who did it, I feel like they

00:49:26

took him straight after or not long

00:49:29

after and we never saw him again either.

00:49:31

So obviously went up to Maxi or

00:49:33

something.

00:49:34

>> Um

00:49:37

yeah, I seen seen, you know, a lot of

00:49:39

fights and and standovers and

00:49:43

um other bits and pieces. M

00:49:46

>> I mean I'm guess the stories that are

00:49:49

there because they happen you know they

00:49:51

didn't just appear from anywhere. all

00:49:52

the stories that that you hear

00:49:55

>> um they they generally what goes on

00:49:59

>> but also um I had a really good

00:50:04

kind of maybe my first sense of really

00:50:06

good camaraderie around around

00:50:10

um

00:50:12

the boys who were you know we we all we

00:50:15

all trained together we worked together

00:50:17

we lived together we looked after each

00:50:19

other

00:50:21

>> it was amazing

00:50:22

you know, um I loved I loved uh when I

00:50:26

was on the when I was on the uh on the

00:50:29

camps

00:50:31

on a winter morning underneath Uru Peu,

00:50:35

make a nice jug of tea and stand at the

00:50:37

door and you know, you see the mountain

00:50:40

appearing

00:50:42

and amazing.

00:50:43

>> Um

00:50:45

as the boys would wake up, morning bro,

00:50:48

you know, cup of tea. So

00:50:52

>> that was that was really cool.

00:50:53

>> You're painting a really nice picture of

00:50:55

it.

00:50:56

>> Yeah.

00:50:57

>> I had another guy on the podcast called

00:50:59

Ben Padawa. He's like one of New

00:51:01

Zealand's top farmers. When he was 15,

00:51:02

he got involved with a couple of mates

00:51:04

with a and they end up with a like a

00:51:05

manslaughter charge.

00:51:07

>> Yeah.

00:51:07

>> Um and he Yeah. He turned his life

00:51:10

around in there. It was in um Ringapo

00:51:11

that he got on a prison farm.

00:51:14

>> That was his introduction to farming.

00:51:15

And he's um like changed his life

00:51:16

around. Um yeah, he he said similar sort

00:51:20

of thing. Of course wouldn't want to go

00:51:22

wouldn't want to go back and is a

00:51:23

completely different person now. But um

00:51:25

>> I think that's what you want to hear. E

00:51:26

like yeah someone reforming and making

00:51:29

the changes.

00:51:30

>> It's the same like

00:51:31

>> just cuz it was like that for me doesn't

00:51:33

mean it was like that for anyone else

00:51:34

>> or will be like that for anyone else. Um

00:51:37

>> that was just me and and my mind and and

00:51:40

how I appre I appreciated the small

00:51:42

things. I remember those things cuz it's

00:51:43

what I appreciated.

00:51:44

>> Mhm.

00:51:45

>> Uh yeah. Yeah, I remember the first

00:51:47

night though when I got there. I I slept

00:51:51

in a fetal position on the wall heater.

00:51:54

It was that cold. A little square

00:51:56

heater. I remember just like stuck up

00:51:59

against it.

00:52:00

>> Uh but I became used to it and got some

00:52:04

extra extra blankets and yeah, got

00:52:07

sorted.

00:52:07

>> Yeah. Can't you just um ring the room

00:52:09

service bell?

00:52:10

>> No. Yeah.

00:52:12

Pick the phone up.

00:52:14

>> Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. What is what is one

00:52:18

thing or or the things that the public

00:52:19

get completely wrong about prison

00:52:21

because I feel like there is this sort

00:52:22

of perception in some ways with some

00:52:23

jails. I remember when um the Spring

00:52:25

Hill jail was being built.

00:52:26

>> Um and if you listen to Talkback, you

00:52:29

think it's like a like a Club Med or

00:52:31

something.

00:52:32

>> People talk about how it's like a like a

00:52:34

holiday resort.

00:52:35

>> Yeah. Well, I I went to um Nafa Prison

00:52:37

when it was first first built, just

00:52:39

opened and uh for me it was uh heated

00:52:45

head floors on suite.

00:52:48

Um not quite the on suite you'd get in

00:52:50

the Airbnb. Um

00:52:53

but

00:52:55

it was nice. Uh had a running track

00:52:58

around the outside. It had a river

00:53:00

running through it. Um we did make a

00:53:02

slip and slide one day.

00:53:05

Uh we used uh we stole the commercial

00:53:08

spray wipe out of the kitchen and um and

00:53:11

tipped it down the hill and then hosed

00:53:12

it off. And then we all ended up with

00:53:14

burns all over our body from from the

00:53:17

raw spray wipe. And we went to medical

00:53:20

and they laughed at us and they said

00:53:23

that's your punishment. You got to deal

00:53:24

with those burns. Um

00:53:27

probably painting another fun picture,

00:53:29

but

00:53:29

>> yeah. Where is this jail? This one

00:53:31

sounds amazing. The one with the

00:53:32

running. You had me at running track.

00:53:33

>> Yeah. Yafa Mafa in um Yafa Springs

00:53:38

>> north north of Fang.

00:53:42

>> Yeah. Um

00:53:44

but you know that's

00:53:47

that's after the

00:53:50

there's you know a lot of dangerous men

00:53:52

in there. There's uh you know you're

00:53:54

getting you're getting told what to do

00:53:55

when when to get locked down, when to

00:53:59

open up. there's always a threat of um

00:54:02

violence and um standovers and and and

00:54:06

all that things you you'd think of as

00:54:08

well. Um

00:54:10

I guess

00:54:12

uh all of that was there. I just

00:54:14

remember

00:54:16

try to remember

00:54:18

the good, you know, take the best out of

00:54:20

it and what I learned. And I remember

00:54:22

one stage in my leg I I I remember

00:54:25

thinking to myself, well, I'm here. I

00:54:27

might as well take it for granted and

00:54:30

get everything I can out of it. And then

00:54:33

I ended up doing a um sport recreation

00:54:36

paper at Northland Polytech um in NAFA

00:54:41

and I met a guy who bought me into

00:54:45

Oakland Hotel and Chef's Training School

00:54:47

where I became chef afterwards. Um

00:54:52

so all those things came out of um

00:54:54

prison and

00:54:57

other things can come out of prison too

00:54:58

but depends what you take out of prison

00:55:01

or or Yeah. So it's kind of that's just

00:55:04

my story you know everyone else is

00:55:06

different.

00:55:06

>> Yeah.

00:55:08

>> What about courses and stuff? You so you

00:55:10

did all the courses that were available

00:55:11

to you. Did you do anger management?

00:55:13

Just something you said before. It

00:55:14

sounded like you got, you know, you you

00:55:15

got control of your your um your anger

00:55:18

like you you said something before about

00:55:19

learning to walk away from things and

00:55:21

>> Well, I had to otherwise um and just

00:55:24

keep fighting.

00:55:25

>> Yeah. But did you do a course for that

00:55:27

or no? Did you just

00:55:28

>> I did do I did do a straight thinking

00:55:31

program in prison and um at the time I

00:55:34

did it so I could get out.

00:55:35

>> Mhm.

00:55:37

>> Later on um those things pop up and I'm

00:55:41

like, "Oh, I remember that." M

00:55:43

>> and I actually met the lady who wrote

00:55:45

was part of writing it. She was my boss

00:55:48

uh later on uh which was cool and she

00:55:51

goes, "Oh, so you've obviously taken

00:55:53

some on board." I was like, "Well, you

00:55:54

you employed me."

00:55:57

>> So, um yeah, when you when you

00:56:01

eventually get released, um yeah, how do

00:56:03

you rebuild instead of returning to to

00:56:06

what you know?

00:56:07

Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing

00:56:10

is um I was lucky, you know, I've got

00:56:12

heaps of uncles and cousins and aunties

00:56:14

and mom and dad and

00:56:17

um I was given a place to stay with my

00:56:21

uncle. Um amazing amazing house and

00:56:25

facility and I got uh

00:56:31

sorry this is the second time I got out.

00:56:34

First time I got out, I stayed with my

00:56:36

sister and my sister's too nice and you

00:56:40

know, I do what I want and and because

00:56:44

I'd served 2/3 of my sentence, there's

00:56:46

no

00:56:48

there's no followup. You just get out.

00:56:50

>> Oh, no parole conditions.

00:56:52

>> Yeah, you just get out. And so, um, I

00:56:56

just got out and I got out to, well, you

00:56:59

know, had she gave me a room at her

00:57:01

house and, uh,

00:57:05

I met the guy from the chef's course and

00:57:07

I went and did the chef's course and I

00:57:09

did amazing at it

00:57:12

and I took that opportunity and then

00:57:14

soon as that course finished, I I had

00:57:17

idle hands again. So, I was a bit bored.

00:57:19

Um

00:57:22

and then

00:57:24

yeah, met up with some some people and

00:57:29

got the itch again and did did some more

00:57:32

um robberies

00:57:34

like 6 months after I got out.

00:57:37

So um got caught straight away and and

00:57:40

straight to prison. They they made it a

00:57:42

recall. So got another two years and

00:57:45

they sent me straight to maximum.

00:57:48

Oh, so that's when you go to uh Pereo.

00:57:51

Yeah.

00:57:51

>> Yeah. They're like, "You're going to

00:57:52

Maxi?" I was like, "That's another

00:57:54

level." So,

00:57:56

>> yeah,

00:57:57

>> man. Why Why did you You've had time to

00:57:59

reflect. What? Why did you do that?

00:58:02

Why did you go back

00:58:05

>> when you got released after that first

00:58:07

stunt?

00:58:07

>> Yeah.

00:58:08

>> Why? It seemed like you had so much

00:58:09

going for you at that point. You done

00:58:10

You done a Oh, no. Oh, is this when you

00:58:12

you came out and you were bigger and

00:58:13

stronger and Oh, okay.

00:58:15

>> Met some people. So, it was always going

00:58:17

to happen,

00:58:19

>> I think. So, I think it was inevitable.

00:58:21

Um, it was amazing I lasted that that

00:58:24

long. I remember uh I was working at a

00:58:27

place and the guy goes, "What are you

00:58:30

looking at or or what are you doing?"

00:58:32

And I was like, "Ah, just making myself

00:58:35

aware of the surroundings." He's like,

00:58:36

"What do you mean?" He's like, "Oh, just

00:58:37

checking out the streets and why is

00:58:39

that?" Like, "Well, you never know where

00:58:41

you need to go." And he's like, "What do

00:58:43

you mean?" I like, well, you know, you

00:58:46

you just never know. That's just what I

00:58:49

was thinking. You needed to know where

00:58:51

you could go, exits

00:58:53

for no reason whatsoever. Like, it was

00:58:55

an amazing place, but it was just a mind

00:58:57

frame. Um,

00:58:58

>> so you're just wired with a like a

00:59:00

criminal mindset.

00:59:01

>> Just wired. Yeah.

00:59:02

>> Yeah. Just wired. And, you know, you

00:59:04

spend four years in prison and you come

00:59:06

out, you think differently no matter

00:59:08

what. Um,

00:59:10

>> you you you you're desensitized a bit.

00:59:13

You're seeing things you maybe shouldn't

00:59:15

have and you you met some people that

00:59:18

you probably shouldn't and

00:59:21

>> Yeah. You just

00:59:24

>> Yeah. Well, something like the um um

00:59:27

horrific story you described before

00:59:29

about like hearing someone in another

00:59:30

another cell getting beaten to death. Um

00:59:33

yeah,

00:59:34

I I don't know if you can ever be the

00:59:36

same again after hearing something like

00:59:38

that. Like

00:59:40

>> Yeah. At the time I was like ah I was

00:59:43

like oh it was worse when it was

00:59:45

happening because you could hear him

00:59:46

wailing.

00:59:48

>> That's why I was like man why is no one

00:59:49

coming?

00:59:50

>> Um and you just kind of you just kind of

00:59:54

uh go to sleep and then you wake up

00:59:58

you you your body clock wakes you up

01:00:00

when the door opens

01:00:02

>> and then uh so you wake up and then oh

01:00:04

the door's not open. And so you have a

01:00:06

look out the out the little window and

01:00:07

then you see the body getting

01:00:10

getting carried out and then you're

01:00:11

like, "Oh, he didn't he didn't make it."

01:00:14

Kind of. You'd think overnight they'd

01:00:16

gone and helped him, but they didn't.

01:00:19

>> So that actually doesn't play. Uh

01:00:25

maybe it does unconsciously, but I don't

01:00:27

really that doesn't weigh in on my

01:00:30

thoughts really. M like

01:00:34

>> Yeah,

01:00:34

>> that was his leg.

01:00:36

>> Yeah.

01:00:41

>> So, you get the second stint. And then

01:00:43

is is it during that time that you you

01:00:45

come to some sort of internal

01:00:46

realization that you got to change?

01:00:48

>> Uh as soon as I got to the cop shop or

01:00:50

soon as I got to the sal when I got

01:00:52

picked up, taken down. The dude lied

01:00:56

too. I had a bang knee from uh oh

01:00:59

actually when I got out I played barard

01:01:01

cup um rugby league and I did my

01:01:08

medial MCL or something. So it was bung

01:01:13

and then uh the cop I remember he took

01:01:16

me in and he oh this is the guy I could

01:01:19

see him uh I could hardly walk let alone

01:01:22

run. He goes yeah he was sweaty like

01:01:24

he's been running and he's puffy. I was

01:01:26

like, "Where you at, bro? You're full of

01:01:29

shit." Anyway, I did it. So, um I uh

01:01:35

yeah, I got locked up uh that day and

01:01:38

straight away I was like, "Oh, well,

01:01:41

want to start training." So, yeah, just

01:01:43

started training. Um

01:01:47

but actually training um that whole

01:01:51

stint was just full on full on training.

01:01:54

M

01:01:55

>> um

01:01:55

>> physical or mental cuz it seems like

01:01:57

you're doing physical training the the

01:01:58

first stunt but it was the mental

01:01:59

training that you needed to do, right?

01:02:01

>> Yeah, it was it was physical which um

01:02:06

uh helped with my mental and I I was

01:02:09

kind of like cuz I've been there now so

01:02:11

I'm going back. I know the environment

01:02:13

kind of and it's a new environment at

01:02:15

Maxi, but I want to be

01:02:19

I I was focused, you know, and um yeah,

01:02:22

I didn't stray for for two years. I

01:02:25

think I I think I did two years. I

01:02:27

served six years all up, so it must be

01:02:28

another two years.

01:02:29

>> Yeah.

01:02:30

>> And then um

01:02:32

>> yeah, went through the motions of of

01:02:34

that. Um, and when I got out, I was

01:02:39

that's I was quite a lot bigger, a lot

01:02:41

less fat, you know. Um, I got out, I

01:02:45

remember I got sent back to Mount Eden

01:02:49

to get released and I put my clothes on

01:02:52

when I got arrested and they were tight

01:02:53

and in all the right places.

01:02:55

>> Not like now, but uh remember the big

01:02:59

green door at Mount Eden? Uh, they

01:03:01

opened the door and I had my bag and and

01:03:03

my clothes on and I kind of stepped over

01:03:07

the door and out into the open and then

01:03:09

they shut the door behind me and then I

01:03:11

was like waiting for my dad to pick me

01:03:13

up and then he pulled up. He's like,

01:03:16

"How's it? Get in." And then we went for

01:03:20

breakfast at his mate's house. And then

01:03:21

um I got 350 bucks again. And I went and

01:03:24

bought some training shoes, some Essex,

01:03:27

and I um it was Wednesday. And then I

01:03:31

went to um training on Thursday night.

01:03:34

And then I played on TV on Monday.

01:03:37

>> Wow.

01:03:37

>> On Bar Monday Night League on Moldy TV.

01:03:40

Um

01:03:42

and there was about five or six cops in

01:03:44

that team.

01:03:45

>> Mhm.

01:03:45

>> And they were awesome, you know. I I

01:03:48

even had my um my Mount Eden woolen

01:03:51

jersey on at first training and um

01:03:55

to me they didn't bat an eyelid you know

01:03:56

I was just in the team

01:03:58

>> I didn't know whether Bernie or or

01:04:00

anyone had a word to them or not but

01:04:02

>> who's Bernie

01:04:03

>> uh Bernie Pinara he was a coach at the

01:04:05

time being my coach many teams many

01:04:08

years

01:04:10

>> um

01:04:12

yeah so you like uh or actually when I

01:04:15

remember the the trainer he was like oh

01:04:17

you might you might not be used to these

01:04:18

kind of trainings um being in prison

01:04:22

and I remember I was like doing the

01:04:23

trainings I was like is this it you know

01:04:28

must be so nice not running into

01:04:29

aluminium poles

01:04:30

>> yeah

01:04:32

I remember just uh every night we'd do

01:04:35

lap just every night running around um

01:04:38

weights we would wrestle uh we were in

01:04:41

the kitchen so we were like well fed

01:04:44

>> um and we had heaps of rest So food,

01:04:47

food, train, rest, good, good recipe,

01:04:49

right?

01:04:50

>> M

01:04:51

>> um

01:04:53

yeah, end of the season, second or

01:04:56

third, I think I played three games at

01:04:58

the end of the season. Um

01:05:02

and then was just fizzing, fizzing,

01:05:04

fizzing for league, ready to go. And

01:05:08

um

01:05:10

yeah, like like the hardest thing the

01:05:13

hardest thing is actually living out

01:05:15

here many you know it's so easy just to

01:05:18

go back to prison. It's really hard to

01:05:21

stay on the outside. Um

01:05:22

>> can you can you explain that for anyone

01:05:25

that's listening to this? Um,

01:05:29

like having your freedom take taken away

01:05:31

seems like one of the worst things

01:05:32

imaginable. It seems like a place that

01:05:34

once you've once you've been there,

01:05:35

you'd never want to go back.

01:05:37

It is. But then when you get out, you've

01:05:42

got responsibilities

01:05:44

and and bills. And

01:05:48

you when you're in there, you got you're

01:05:50

warm, you're dry, you're fed. Um, and

01:05:53

when you get out, you got to be an

01:05:55

adult, you know? You got to um,

01:05:57

especially if you got I I didn't have

01:05:59

kids or or partner, so it was just me.

01:06:03

Um, I only had to look after me and and

01:06:07

that was hard. Um,

01:06:10

all the people I'd met in six years,

01:06:13

the last six years of my life, uh, you

01:06:16

run into them, they contact you, you you

01:06:19

meet you meet up with them and and

01:06:21

there's temptation and it's so easy just

01:06:24

to like do that one more

01:06:26

>> just to set you up.

01:06:29

>> But, um, for some reason I didn't and

01:06:34

and I I I call on Rugby League for that.

01:06:36

And

01:06:38

soon as that but I went to training and

01:06:41

then I played on Monday night league and

01:06:43

then they took put me on a plane and

01:06:45

sent me to Canary to play and then we

01:06:47

came back and played Odoo

01:06:50

and then after that was it was the

01:06:52

season over and I was like oh now what?

01:06:53

And Bernie's like moldies

01:06:56

moldies. So straight into training for

01:06:58

Oakland Moldies something to focus on

01:07:01

you know um something to keep me going.

01:07:04

Um

01:07:08

I think that I was lucky in that that

01:07:10

aspect. Rugby league was a passion of

01:07:12

mine, you know, and it was that revival

01:07:14

of that that kept me over here rather

01:07:17

than going back. So

01:07:19

>> I call it, you know, rugby league. It

01:07:21

really did save my life.

01:07:23

>> Gave you a purpose.

01:07:24

>> Yeah.

01:07:25

>> Reason to get out of bed in the morning.

01:07:26

So how old are you at this point? Like

01:07:27

mid 20s.

01:07:28

>> 26.

01:07:29

>> 26.

01:07:31

So, so there was there was no chance at

01:07:32

this point of um like becoming like part

01:07:34

of the Warriors or anything. Had you

01:07:36

just lost too many too many years?

01:07:38

>> Well, actually uh Bernie goes, "Oh, they

01:07:41

got this new uh New South Wales Cup

01:07:44

team, which is like Warriors reserves

01:07:46

trial. You should go." I was like,

01:07:48

"Whatever." Anyway, I went and I made

01:07:51

the team and um so I got out in October

01:07:55

and the trial was I don't know maybe

01:07:57

maybe January or something and then went

01:08:00

straight into like two trainings a day.

01:08:03

Um but they traveled every second week.

01:08:07

They followed the Warriors kind of thing

01:08:09

>> which I couldn't. Um

01:08:11

>> Oh, you could only do home games.

01:08:13

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:08:16

>> Travel restrictions.

01:08:17

>> Yeah. So, um yeah, I remember um one of

01:08:20

the guys from Norway is like, "Can you

01:08:22

travel?" And I was like, "You're not."

01:08:26

And he's like, "Oh, that's a shame

01:08:28

because could be different." Um

01:08:32

man, I think about that all the time.

01:08:34

And I think cuz my I only had one

01:08:35

aspiration. Well, I had three. I got I

01:08:39

met the other two. The last one was to

01:08:41

play NRL.

01:08:43

>> Uh which I didn't quite make it. Uh, the

01:08:46

first two was like owner WRX and

01:08:49

Victoria's Secret Wife. So, I got those

01:08:52

two,

01:08:56

>> very simple.

01:08:57

>> Yeah. So, you um Yeah. You're married

01:09:00

and you got kids now. You mentioned

01:09:01

before cuz we're recording this during

01:09:03

the school holidays and you took your

01:09:05

kids um past the jail. Yeah. How old are

01:09:07

your kids?

01:09:08

>> I got four. So, four, six, eight, 15.

01:09:12

>> So, so what do they know about your

01:09:14

past? What do you tell them?

01:09:16

>> Um, I answer their questions in a um in

01:09:21

an age appropriate answer.

01:09:23

>> So, I never say I never hide from it,

01:09:27

but I don't give them the the blunt

01:09:29

truth on that. I just tell them, you

01:09:31

know, dad was naughty.

01:09:33

>> Dad some things.

01:09:35

I took them up to Perry yesterday and

01:09:38

showed them where I used to live and

01:09:39

Mount Eden where I used to live and they

01:09:42

asked me heaps of questions and I

01:09:43

answered it and then like I'm still the

01:09:46

dad they know you know

01:09:47

>> we went around the odd hood hood today

01:09:49

and showed them different houses and

01:09:51

where my dad lived and my grandmother

01:09:53

and

01:09:54

>> what sort of questions do they ask about

01:09:56

jail?

01:09:58

>> Well, when we got to Parriers obviously

01:10:01

>> it's an it's an intimidating place.

01:10:03

>> Yeah. Yeah. I look at it now and I

01:10:04

think, man,

01:10:05

>> how'd I get in there?

01:10:07

>> Oh, that's right.

01:10:08

>> Front gate.

01:10:09

>> Yeah, front gate

01:10:11

>> on the on the on the into jail bus.

01:10:13

>> Uber for Jay.

01:10:15

One way. No. Um and then uh I told them,

01:10:20

"Oh, yep. Dad used to stay there." And

01:10:21

they're like, "Did you get food?"

01:10:25

Just cuz it looks like it's just fully

01:10:27

so just the way their mind works, you

01:10:29

know? And I was like, "Actually, I used

01:10:31

to cook the food." Ah, and then it went

01:10:33

on to what kind of food did you cook?

01:10:36

>> So, just kind of

01:10:37

>> kids questions.

01:10:38

>> Kids questions there. But, you know, as

01:10:40

they grow old, they'll they'll develop

01:10:41

it into what it really is. But, um,

01:10:43

>> well, you got this book now, so they

01:10:45

they you can just when they're old

01:10:46

enough here, read the book.

01:10:47

>> Read the book. Read the book, bro.

01:10:48

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:50

>> Yeah. I've always been I've always been

01:10:52

open and honest with them, man. and the

01:10:54

boys I work with um that's been actually

01:10:57

the strength you know it gives them

01:10:59

something to our tagline for bro change

01:11:01

you know real people real talk real

01:11:03

change

01:11:04

>> so real people as in you know we've done

01:11:06

some [ __ ] too real talk as in completely

01:11:09

honest and real changes in we want you

01:11:12

to actually change we don't want to just

01:11:13

like take a box and shake your hand and

01:11:16

have a have a nice life

01:11:17

>> you know we want you to actually

01:11:21

>> what what you know whatever the change

01:11:22

it Just be happy, man. Enjoy your life.

01:11:25

Do whatever you want.

01:11:26

>> Yeah.

01:11:26

>> And not be not be a puppet. Cut those

01:11:28

strings off and do what you want.

01:11:30

>> Um, when you meet your wife, like when

01:11:33

when do you tell her about your past?

01:11:37

>> Uh, I can't actually remember the time.

01:11:39

I do remember like knocking on the door

01:11:41

at her house

01:11:43

>> and uh her mom answered and her mom said

01:11:45

to me later at one of my birthdays, she

01:11:48

goes, "I remember when you knocked on

01:11:49

the door." And I was like, "Oh my gosh."

01:11:52

She was like quite intimidated. But

01:11:55

>> you're really you are a really imposing

01:11:57

dude.

01:11:58

>> I wouldn't want to play a game of run it

01:11:59

straight with you. Put it that way.

01:12:01

>> Bit old now. Bit old now. But um

01:12:05

>> yeah, I mean my wife's she's polar

01:12:07

opposite of me, you know. She's really

01:12:09

nice.

01:12:10

>> She's um she's uh got Dutch Dutch

01:12:14

descent. Um Christian upbringing.

01:12:18

um

01:12:20

very caring, very giving. Um yeah,

01:12:24

everyone's like, "Bro, how what does she

01:12:26

see in you?" You know, and I think uh I

01:12:30

think my mystery is what she sees in me.

01:12:33

She loves

01:12:35

So, I don't actually talk too much to

01:12:36

her about it. Like, if she asked me a

01:12:38

question, I'll answer it. And then she's

01:12:39

like,

01:12:40

>> "Oh, but but what else?" You know? So,

01:12:43

>> well, I know you I know you hate this

01:12:45

word, but

01:12:46

>> maybe when she met you, she could just

01:12:48

see the potential in you.

01:12:50

>> Yeah, she always she saw something. She

01:12:52

saw something

01:12:53

>> and you you haven't Yeah. Like you

01:12:54

haven't let her down. Like, you know,

01:12:56

you're living a really good life now and

01:12:57

you're doing really cool stuff.

01:12:59

>> Yeah. Um, but I I can't imagine like

01:13:01

from her perspective how difficult you

01:13:03

she starts she falls in love with this

01:13:05

guy that's got a got a past and then

01:13:07

she's got to explain it to like her

01:13:09

family and her friends like she's got to

01:13:11

justify it to them. You know what I

01:13:13

mean?

01:13:13

>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember at the wedding

01:13:15

like uh like I said I've always been

01:13:17

open about it.

01:13:18

>> Yeah.

01:13:18

>> And um if people ask I tell them

01:13:21

>> and they'll they'll say one of two

01:13:23

things like oh gosh or

01:13:27

that's great that you're doing well now

01:13:28

you know. So I remember at the wedding I

01:13:30

uh

01:13:32

it was a lot of people, hundred odd

01:13:34

people and you know you you stand up and

01:13:36

you got to say this great amazing speech

01:13:38

and I remember saying

01:13:42

last time I spoke in front of this many

01:13:44

people was at court.

01:13:50

But everyone laughed. It was a great

01:13:52

icebreaker.

01:13:53

>> Yeah, they're your people.

01:13:55

>> Yeah.

01:13:56

>> Um

01:13:59

Yeah, it was

01:14:04

it was

01:14:04

>> you got a good sense of humor. How how

01:14:06

does your past um still impact your life

01:14:08

today? Obviously there's the travel

01:14:10

issues. You can't travel.

01:14:12

>> I can.

01:14:13

>> You can. Where can you go?

01:14:14

>> Everywhere. Really? I've been around the

01:14:16

world.

01:14:16

>> Oh [ __ ]

01:14:17

>> Kind of.

01:14:18

>> Yeah. I've been to um

01:14:21

Raaro, Fiji,

01:14:23

>> um

01:14:27

Makati,

01:14:29

>> um Australia. I got my visa to America.

01:14:32

I just didn't go.

01:14:34

>> Amazing.

01:14:35

>> Yeah. Um I apply I I go through the

01:14:39

paperwork and I check and I r everyone

01:14:40

up and

01:14:42

make sure what do I need to get in? All

01:14:45

you need is this this apply for it and

01:14:46

get it. So, I've been uh I actually went

01:14:51

back to Australia and did a year playing

01:14:53

league over there in um 2014.

01:14:58

>> M

01:14:58

>> So, that was a big breakthrough.

01:15:01

>> That's when I finally got over um not

01:15:04

playing in the NRL.

01:15:05

>> Yeah.

01:15:06

>> Really? Why is that to sort of just

01:15:08

scratch an itch?

01:15:10

>> Yes. So, I went over and I did the thing

01:15:13

and uh by the time I did the thing, it

01:15:16

wasn't my thing.

01:15:17

>> Mhm.

01:15:18

>> Yeah. And I came back and got married.

01:15:20

>> Yeah.

01:15:21

>> Um

01:15:22

you're 100% right. I scratched the itch.

01:15:25

>> Yeah.

01:15:25

>> Yeah.

01:15:26

>> What What about redemption? Is it Are

01:15:29

there some people that just, you know,

01:15:30

can't see past your past? Do you know

01:15:33

what I mean?

01:15:33

>> Yeah. 100%.

01:15:36

um see it all the time and and every

01:15:38

time a news article comes out there's

01:15:40

there's always the comments of

01:15:43

you know once always uh uh uh cheetah

01:15:46

never changes its spots and stuff like

01:15:48

that but

01:15:51

>> whatever I'm here I'm doing my thing

01:15:54

people people are weird e cuz like you

01:15:57

know

01:15:58

what we want from um like the New

01:16:01

Zealand um prison system is is people

01:16:04

like you people that go through do the

01:16:06

work and change and become contributing

01:16:08

members of society. But then there's

01:16:10

some people and it's like they they kind

01:16:11

of don't want you to change in a way or

01:16:13

they or they don't want you to

01:16:14

experience a certain level of success

01:16:16

after you've done something bad. It's a

01:16:18

real strange mindset. I find it hard to

01:16:19

get my head around.

01:16:20

>> Yeah, same. And I see it all the time.

01:16:23

>> I see it in other things where they

01:16:26

comment on not me something will happen

01:16:28

and they they just all no matter what

01:16:30

you do, they just see what they want to

01:16:32

see. Um, I find myself there sometimes

01:16:36

>> when it when it fits my narrative.

01:16:38

>> Yeah.

01:16:39

>> But I'm aware of it and I I try not to

01:16:42

>> I try not to. Um, but it's it's human

01:16:45

behavior, you know.

01:16:48

>> What would your advice be for anyone

01:16:49

that's like listening to this or

01:16:50

watching to this now that's at their own

01:16:52

version of rock bottom right now?

01:16:57

>> Um,

01:17:01

yeah. I don't know. Don't do that thing

01:17:04

you did that hurt. Don't do that.

01:17:08

>> Yeah.

01:17:09

>> No. Yeah. It's hard cuz everyone has

01:17:11

their own

01:17:12

>> Yeah.

01:17:12

>> version.

01:17:14

One guy one guy said to me, um, two

01:17:17

things to change. Um, inspiration or

01:17:20

desperation.

01:17:21

>> Mhm.

01:17:21

>> So if at the bottom you're probably

01:17:23

desperate.

01:17:24

>> Um, if you can't change when at the

01:17:25

bottom

01:17:27

Yeah. or you get inspired by someone to

01:17:30

lose that weight or or or go to the

01:17:33

Olympics or be an all black or whatever.

01:17:35

So, find that and if you can't uh yeah,

01:17:41

just work harder and maybe work the

01:17:43

weekends, you know. Well, that's um one

01:17:46

thing I've got from this um this doing

01:17:47

this podcast. I've done like 250

01:17:49

episodes now with all sorts of people

01:17:51

like um you know, some really high

01:17:53

achieving uh New Zealanders. It's like

01:17:55

the the one thing they all have in

01:17:57

common is hard work.

01:17:59

Natural talent's only going to get you

01:18:00

so far, but hard work is the it's the

01:18:03

one thing they all have in common.

01:18:05

>> God, when you when you were sitting in

01:18:06

sitting in your various jail cells, did

01:18:08

you ever imagine your life could look as

01:18:09

good as what it does now?

01:18:12

>> Um, in a in a distant dream, you know,

01:18:15

you know, you dream of things and

01:18:17

>> yeah, I dreamed of things for my life.

01:18:19

Um, it was never this. it was never this

01:18:23

and and what I do and um

01:18:27

yeah, it's just amazing and I'm I'm

01:18:31

lucky to have a supportive family and

01:18:35

great mates now and um people who keep

01:18:38

me honest and um

01:18:41

and yeah, like a great community of

01:18:43

league and

01:18:45

the other sports, disc golf and

01:18:47

whatever. Um

01:18:50

>> yeah, and What sport? What did you say?

01:18:52

Disc golf.

01:18:53

>> Disc golf.

01:18:53

>> Is it like frisbee golf?

01:18:55

>> It is.

01:18:56

>> Do you play frisbee golf?

01:18:57

>> I do.

01:18:58

>> I wouldn't have picked you to be a

01:18:59

frisbee golf guy.

01:19:00

>> Well, I'm a I'm a non-cont sport guy

01:19:02

these days.

01:19:04

And uh disc golf, you don't need any uh

01:19:07

sandune running. No, no preseason

01:19:10

fitness.

01:19:11

Uh no, no Saturday night benders after

01:19:13

the game. Yeah, we actually ran the New

01:19:16

Zealand Nationals at the beginning of

01:19:18

the year. Um,

01:19:20

>> what would what would 19year-old Jay

01:19:22

thinking thinking of think of this guy,

01:19:24

the dis golfer?

01:19:25

>> Oh, the same as um the same as

01:19:27

35year-old Jay would say when he first

01:19:30

learned it.

01:19:31

>> Bro, want to come for a game of disco

01:19:33

golf?

01:19:34

>> Does it look like I play disc golf?

01:19:36

Anyway, I went and instantly hooked.

01:19:40

Wow. And it's great for um the boys at

01:19:44

at work. like we get them to build the

01:19:46

courses and

01:19:48

>> you know whole range of skills in that

01:19:50

and also it's great for one-on-one chats

01:19:52

go for a round.

01:19:53

>> Yeah.

01:19:54

>> Um

01:19:56

>> so it's actually it's great sport.

01:19:59

>> When when did you become um good or or

01:20:03

better than what you were at being open

01:20:04

and like having vulnerable discussions

01:20:06

and talking so openly and freely about

01:20:08

this real crunchy stuff?

01:20:09

>> I remember the time.

01:20:11

>> Do you? There's a YMCA national hoie. Um

01:20:15

201

01:20:17

13 or 14.

01:20:20

Um they had a national hoie and Christ

01:20:22

Church and me and Tikki were tasked with

01:20:26

the welcome the opening and keynote

01:20:28

keynote speaking. And Tikki was always

01:20:30

the the front man. He was really good.

01:20:33

He's really um he's an academic

01:20:37

and I was I was kind of like the mahi

01:20:39

guy in the background doing all the bits

01:20:40

and pieces. Anyway, he goes, "Bro, you

01:20:42

should tell your story."

01:20:44

And I was like, "Oh, that's a bit new."

01:20:47

And then he encouraged me and helped me.

01:20:49

And anyway, we got to the part and I

01:20:52

told my story and

01:20:55

people responded

01:20:56

>> which was empowering.

01:20:59

Um,

01:21:01

and people were encouraging and uh I

01:21:03

felt awkward walking around after

01:21:05

thinking like you know about me.

01:21:08

>> Yeah, it like vulnerability is hard.

01:21:10

Like it feels like you've been standing

01:21:11

naked on stage in front of those people.

01:21:13

>> Yeah. Another guy um who was a sergeant

01:21:15

in the army for 21 years. He works at

01:21:18

Bridge of Change now.

01:21:19

>> Um I told him I was like um do you want

01:21:22

to come and do some stuff at our camps

01:21:24

with our boys from a different

01:21:25

perspective? and he used that

01:21:27

opportunity to um cuz he was saying in

01:21:31

the army everyone's there cuz they want

01:21:32

to be and they want to learn

01:21:34

>> but when you got kids who are not there

01:21:37

cuz they want to be

01:21:38

>> in the I'm talking about army uh and you

01:21:41

have to try and teach them it's about

01:21:43

working to the audience.

01:21:45

Um anyway, I while while we were there,

01:21:47

I gave this I spoke to these kids

01:21:50

because he's used to get down and give

01:21:53

him 20 now, you know, and and when I

01:21:57

spoke to them, I spoke to them from a uh

01:22:00

from being being vulnerable. Like I

01:22:02

shared some stuff to the kids about

01:22:04

>> and he was and the and the kids

01:22:06

responded to me better than the way they

01:22:08

responded to that. And he was like,

01:22:11

>> "What's the sorcery?" Cuz he's all, you

01:22:13

know, he's a half man. He's quite so

01:22:15

ever since then he was really curious

01:22:17

about

01:22:18

>> that side of it. So so now he works

01:22:20

there

01:22:21

>> and uh

01:22:21

>> interesting. You different way of

01:22:23

communication. It's sort of like what

01:22:24

you were saying before when you first

01:22:25

got arrested and the police were there

01:22:26

and it wasn't like um confrontation. It

01:22:29

was like K it's the police here.

01:22:31

>> Yeah. It's different different way of

01:22:33

approaching things

01:22:34

>> rather than

01:22:35

>> Yeah. Get on your knees.

01:22:36

>> Yeah. Kicking the door down. And it was

01:22:37

a different approach which was um

01:22:40

>> I think the result would have been the

01:22:42

same. I wasn't going to that, you know,

01:22:44

the gigs up.

01:22:45

>> Yay.

01:22:47

>> Um Yeah. How often, if at all, do you

01:22:49

think about um the victims these days?

01:22:52

You know, the people that were working

01:22:53

those jobs when they when you did the

01:22:55

armed robberies.

01:22:56

>> Uh times like the last couple of days a

01:22:59

lot. Cuz I'm here in Oakuckland. Um

01:23:03

yeah. And I I think of the not the

01:23:07

physical harm I did to them because

01:23:09

there physically there was none. It was

01:23:12

all psychological, you know. And

01:23:16

>> I just think

01:23:18

me coming in aggressive like that and

01:23:21

demanding.

01:23:24

I actually don't know how that feels,

01:23:25

but I can imagine, you know, um they all

01:23:30

take it differently and

01:23:34

yeah, I hope that um I hope that they

01:23:36

see what I'm doing now. And I hope they

01:23:37

kind of like

01:23:41

not it was worth it, but I'm I'm glad

01:23:43

that he's giving back now rather than

01:23:45

continuing on their path and and others

01:23:47

are victims.

01:23:49

>> Um

01:23:51

yeah, so that's that's kind of what I

01:23:53

think of it. I haven't really made any

01:23:55

attempts to reach out whether they're

01:23:58

around or or not. It was been a long

01:24:01

time and

01:24:03

>> yeah, so

01:24:04

>> if if any of them were um watching this

01:24:05

or listening to this, like what would

01:24:07

you what would you say to them?

01:24:10

>> Ah man, yeah, I'm just

01:24:15

obviously it's um changed my life. Um,

01:24:19

and yeah, I hope it hasn't had any um

01:24:23

major effects on on on their life and

01:24:27

yeah, come come for a be

01:24:32

uh Yeah, obviously.

01:24:35

>> Yeah, I I Yeah, I mean, I can tell

01:24:37

you're like you're you're ashamed about

01:24:39

it because you know, you're not the same

01:24:41

person now as what you were then.

01:24:42

>> Yeah.

01:24:43

>> Yeah. Very ashamed. especially like um

01:24:47

uh direct victims

01:24:50

>> uh from that from from that um arm

01:24:52

robbery end as well as well my my family

01:24:56

and and all that. So

01:24:58

>> yeah,

01:24:58

>> hopefully now it's kind of like all

01:25:02

healing itself.

01:25:03

>> Yeah. Um yeah, you're helping a lot of

01:25:05

people fix their lives now, but I reckon

01:25:08

we're all permanent um works in progress

01:25:10

as human beings. What's one thing that

01:25:12

you're still working on fixing in yours?

01:25:15

>> Um, my connection to T Modi.

01:25:18

>> Um,

01:25:19

>> is that going to be a lifelong thing?

01:25:20

>> Yep. Never ends. Um, it it draws me now

01:25:24

more than ever. Draws me back to,

01:25:27

you know, that's why part of it is

01:25:30

showing the kids. Um, my grandmother's

01:25:33

house, my dad's house, where all the

01:25:35

houses I lived while I was here, the

01:25:36

area I grew up in, um, the prisons. And

01:25:40

then on Saturday we tomorrow we're going

01:25:43

um up to where we're from, the Murray,

01:25:46

>> where my grandmother's from. And then uh

01:25:48

next week we're going into the UD from

01:25:50

where my grandmother's from.

01:25:52

>> So all of that is um

01:25:56

is a home base, you know, and once you

01:25:58

know where once you know where you are

01:26:00

and you know how to get anywhere from

01:26:02

there, if you don't know where you are,

01:26:04

>> how do you get to New Zealand?

01:26:07

>> Plain, boat, walk, depends where you

01:26:09

are.

01:26:09

>> Yeah. So that's my kind of um

01:26:12

that's my

01:26:14

thinking is to so if they cuz if I ask

01:26:18

my kids oh where you from oh they

01:26:20

actually they're actually um fluent in

01:26:22

Tadel but

01:26:23

>> wow

01:26:24

>> but a lot of the boys at work I'll be

01:26:25

like where you from I'm from Christurch

01:26:28

but I know there's a lot more

01:26:30

>> behind them so figuring out where their

01:26:33

home base is then they can go anywhere

01:26:35

>> cuz once I kind of

01:26:37

>> accepted that and figured that out. I

01:26:39

kind of been hitting milestones ever

01:26:41

since.

01:26:41

>> Yeah,

01:26:44

>> that's awesome. Do you do you consider

01:26:46

yourself a role model?

01:26:50

>> Um,

01:26:52

yeah.

01:26:53

>> Yeah. And it's been it's um it's quite

01:26:57

easy like uh I will a recent one I'll

01:27:01

take kids up the hill. Uh we'll walk up

01:27:04

the hill to in in in the Alps somewhere

01:27:07

and what are we doing up here? So well

01:27:10

we're hunting.

01:27:11

>> So we haven't seen any animals. Well,

01:27:13

we're getting experience

01:27:15

and then what do we do now?

01:27:21

>> What are we going to do now? So let's

01:27:22

all sit around. Let's have feed and um

01:27:24

I'll read you a chapter of my book. and

01:27:26

they're like, "No."

01:27:29

But I'll but I'll but I'll read it and

01:27:31

then um I'll read a chapter and then

01:27:34

I'll I'll leave them with that and then

01:27:37

throughout the next couple days I'll be

01:27:39

walking with them on the way back or

01:27:41

whatever and they'll be like, "Oh, Mata,

01:27:44

you know, you're saying about how like

01:27:45

you didn't have a home."

01:27:47

Yeah, I know cuz you know I've been

01:27:49

passed around and so you know they

01:27:51

connect with a little bit of it and and

01:27:54

if they see I came from that

01:27:57

>> and uh and that's where they are and

01:28:00

they can see what I'm doing now, you

01:28:01

know, it's a light for them. It's it's

01:28:03

something for them, you know, it's not

01:28:05

always going to be like that, but it's

01:28:06

up to them.

01:28:08

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like we talked about

01:28:09

before, you can give someone the tools,

01:28:11

but they got to they got to figure out

01:28:12

how to use them. Oh,

01:28:14

>> there's one thing in your book. Um,

01:28:17

there's there's a line you used and I

01:28:18

wanted some elaboration on this. I

01:28:19

forgot about this actually. So, you said

01:28:21

you served something like 6 years, but

01:28:23

your total sentence was 16 years.

01:28:25

>> What does what does that mean?

01:28:26

>> Well, if you do 6 years of prison and

01:28:30

then you get out, you're not immediately

01:28:32

back to where you started. You're you're

01:28:36

6 years behind, if not deeper in a hole.

01:28:39

You don't get back to um a playing level

01:28:41

field.

01:28:42

>> Well, I didn't. And so when I got out,

01:28:45

not only was I behind, I was actually in

01:28:47

a hole.

01:28:47

>> Mhm.

01:28:48

>> So it took me 10 years to

01:28:51

uh

01:28:53

change the perception of myself

01:28:55

>> and rebuild enough things to get back to

01:28:59

what I didn't have when I started.

01:29:01

>> Right.

01:29:01

>> You know what I mean?

01:29:02

>> Yeah.

01:29:02

>> Like when I went to prison, I didn't

01:29:04

have anything.

01:29:05

>> So when I got out, I had to rebuild back

01:29:07

to not having anything.

01:29:09

>> Um

01:29:11

>> Right. Yeah. Next, you need to work even

01:29:12

harder to prove yourself that you're a

01:29:14

contributing member of society.

01:29:16

>> Yeah.

01:29:16

>> Okay. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

01:29:18

>> It's interesting. I've never heard

01:29:19

anyone explain it that way.

01:29:21

>> Yeah. Even Yeah. So, you don't just get

01:29:23

out and just carry on where you were.

01:29:25

You know, you don't get

01:29:26

>> you don't get held up.

01:29:28

>> Um you're actually generally worse off

01:29:30

and you have that stigma following you

01:29:32

around. So, not only do you have to

01:29:35

>> um prove yourself, you have to prove

01:29:37

yourself more because you're you're that

01:29:39

guy. M

01:29:40

>> yeah,

01:29:42

>> if you um if you were able to go back

01:29:44

and talk to an 18-year-old version of

01:29:46

yourself, I know what you'd say. Um but

01:29:48

would would that kid listen?

01:29:50

>> No, he wouldn't. Nah, people are like I

01:29:53

always say, I built this program for

01:29:56

young me. The program I run now was what

01:29:58

I needed. But in all honesty,

01:30:02

uh everyone knew I needed it. I knew I

01:30:04

knew I needed it, but I wouldn't take

01:30:06

it.

01:30:06

>> Yeah. You had to learn the hard way.

01:30:07

>> I had to learn the hard way. And that's

01:30:08

what I say to kids. It's like you can

01:30:10

either listen to me or you can go learn

01:30:13

some lessons and then come back,

01:30:15

>> but do it easy, do it. Up to you, you

01:30:18

know.

01:30:19

>> I love that. Yeah. Ultimately, it's

01:30:21

personal accountability.

01:30:22

>> Yes.

01:30:22

>> Are you um have you have you been able

01:30:24

to forgive yourself?

01:30:28

>> Uh yeah, a little bit. mostly like I

01:30:31

really love I really love um I really

01:30:35

love some results that we get but then

01:30:37

I'm there's always that like thing in

01:30:39

the background like like like what if

01:30:42

and and what have I done to people? Uh

01:30:47

so I guess like doing the work I do now

01:30:50

is um makes me feel better about myself.

01:30:54

>> Is that right? You still carry still

01:30:55

carry a bit of guilt and shame about

01:30:57

>> Yeah, there's always like when uh some

01:31:00

people say it proudly, oh, this is my

01:31:02

mate Jay. Uh he he did this. Uh but he's

01:31:07

a good guy, you know, which is which is

01:31:09

fair. And um and then uh every now and

01:31:12

then you get the you get the judge look

01:31:15

like, oh, and oh, hey, nice to meet you

01:31:18

kind of thing. Whereas like

01:31:21

>> Yeah. Yeah,

01:31:21

>> but you that's a that's a snapshot. You

01:31:24

know, there's a lot there's a lot in

01:31:26

between which I'm happy with.

01:31:29

>> Um but I did it.

01:31:31

>> So, you know,

01:31:32

>> got to live with the consequences of

01:31:33

your actions.

01:31:34

>> That's right.

01:31:34

>> Yeah.

01:31:35

>> Accountability.

01:31:36

>> Um what about future? How old are you

01:31:38

now? What's your age?

01:31:39

>> Well, they call me um on my birth

01:31:41

certificate. They said I'm 45, but you

01:31:44

freeze in prison, so I'm 39.

01:31:48

>> Yeah. What What happens on your birthday

01:31:49

in jail? Um

01:31:52

well I can't say that but

01:31:55

>> well no you can it's a podcast you can

01:31:56

say whatever you want.

01:31:57

>> Yeah I mean a few things you can um go

01:32:01

to sleep you can uh a couple of birthday

01:32:04

uh I had my 21st in prison and um all

01:32:06

the guys they actually bought some

01:32:08

things from their canteen and then they

01:32:11

all put it all in together. We had a we

01:32:12

party you know chocolate biscuits and

01:32:14

chips and uh stuff like that. May have

01:32:17

been some home brew. Can't remember. um

01:32:21

>> home brew like with made with old fruit.

01:32:23

Is that how you make prison wine or

01:32:26

whatever they call it?

01:32:26

>> I've had I've had a veggie mite one,

01:32:28

minties, raaru,

01:32:31

um a yeast one,

01:32:34

uh yeah, oranges, fermentss, um

01:32:37

>> [ __ ] does it taste like [ __ ]

01:32:38

>> Yeah,

01:32:45

>> but you know, desperate times. Yeah.

01:32:47

Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:48

>> I got I got crooked a few times.

01:32:49

Obviously, they're still cooking.

01:32:51

>> Um, but the moment was great.

01:32:55

>> Yeah.

01:32:55

>> I suppose you just want that just that

01:32:57

moment of escapism, eh?

01:32:58

>> Yeah. I remember my 21st. You know how

01:33:00

people normally get a key.

01:33:02

>> I was like, well, in this case, I really

01:33:03

wish I had the door.

01:33:07

>> Yeah.

01:33:08

>> Yeah. What about future goals? Yeah.

01:33:10

Where do you see yourself at? Yeah. 50,

01:33:12

whatever. Um, living quietly in the

01:33:15

bush,

01:33:16

>> self- sustainable.

01:33:18

um teaching my kids all the life skills

01:33:22

and

01:33:24

quite simple actually simple life of um

01:33:28

in the bush hunting sustainably and and

01:33:33

uh learning learning about the tao and

01:33:37

retracting back to

01:33:40

uh

01:33:41

matiki and and those ways learning

01:33:44

living

01:33:46

quite happily is quite has got quite got

01:33:48

a strong pull on me these days. So, it's

01:33:50

really cool.

01:33:51

>> Well, chasing chaos didn't really work

01:33:53

out for you. So, yeah, Chasing

01:33:55

Simplicity, I think that's the way to

01:33:57

go.

01:33:57

>> Tried that out. Didn't really work out.

01:34:00

>> One star wouldn't recommend.

01:34:02

>> Um, yeah. If if you if your kids were

01:34:05

here, your kids and your wife, and I

01:34:07

asked them to come together as a group

01:34:09

and put together like three words to

01:34:11

describe you,

01:34:12

>> Yeah.

01:34:12

>> what three words do you think they'd

01:34:13

come up with?

01:34:15

Um,

01:34:18

that's tough because it's kind of like

01:34:20

talking about myself, but it's they

01:34:22

probably say funny.

01:34:25

Uh, my wife would say either determined

01:34:27

or or hardworking.

01:34:30

>> And the kids would say farting.

01:34:34

>> Jeez, how bad is that? But uh

01:34:37

>> yeah, probably determines

01:34:40

uh funny and

01:34:43

uh

01:34:44

caring or strong.

01:34:46

>> They're nice words. You like those

01:34:48

words?

01:34:48

>> I do. It describes a very different

01:34:51

>> J

01:34:52

>> to, you know, the the one I left in

01:34:55

Oakuckland.

01:34:57

>> Yeah.

01:34:58

>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself?

01:35:00

>> I am. I'm proud of what I've been able

01:35:02

to do, the places I've been, and um the

01:35:06

way I've recovered, I guess, from what

01:35:08

could have been very different. And

01:35:10

proud of my family

01:35:12

>> and sort of excited to see what they can

01:35:15

achieve.

01:35:19

>> This has been great.

01:35:21

>> Yeah. How's it for you? Is it is it

01:35:23

cathartic? Is it embarrassing talking

01:35:25

about the old stuff?

01:35:27

>> Uh yeah, there's a little embarrass.

01:35:29

There's a little bit of embarrassment

01:35:30

there. There's a little bit of It got

01:35:32

It's gone fast.

01:35:33

>> Yeah, it's mate. It's been like an hour

01:35:35

and a half.

01:35:35

>> Yeah. Um, it's gone fast. It's gone. Um,

01:35:41

uh,

01:35:43

good.

01:35:46

>> It's been really It's been really great.

01:35:48

I've really enjoyed it. And, um, yeah, I

01:35:50

hope it's been um, enjoyable for you as

01:35:52

well.

01:35:53

>> Yeah, I hope it's interesting. Yeah,

01:35:55

>> that's what I thought of the book when

01:35:57

they said, "Hey, you should write a

01:35:58

book." I was like,

01:36:01

>> cuz I'd already been talking about a lot

01:36:03

of the stuff. So, to me, it was just

01:36:05

repeat, repeat, repeat.

01:36:06

>> But, um,

01:36:08

>> yeah, that was my main goal was like

01:36:10

people would be like, "Oh, this is not

01:36:12

even interesting." But,

01:36:14

>> seems to be interesting.

01:36:17

>> Yeah, I lived it. So, it was kind of

01:36:19

>> Yeah.

01:36:20

>> I know the story.

01:36:21

>> Did you Yeah. What was the process? So,

01:36:22

publishers came to you. Did you write it

01:36:24

yourself or did they give you like a a a

01:36:26

ghost writer that interviewed you and

01:36:28

then wrote it for you or?

01:36:29

>> Yeah, they gave me a ghost writer.

01:36:30

>> Yeah.

01:36:31

>> Uh they actually found me. I did a TED

01:36:33

talk and they found me on that and then

01:36:36

rang me up and said do you want to do a

01:36:37

book? I was like

01:36:39

>> I never went to school.

01:36:42

That's but they said they do. I was like

01:36:43

what I got to do? They're like nothing.

01:36:44

>> Yeah.

01:36:45

>> I was like okay

01:36:47

>> can't see any um negative out of it. So

01:36:50

yeah, let's do it.

01:36:52

That's must be crazy like going into a

01:36:53

mall and seeing yourself in a paper

01:36:55

plus.

01:36:56

>> Yeah, the kids got a bit of a routine

01:36:57

now. They're like every time we go in

01:36:59

they're like being the first ones to

01:37:01

find the book. Um

01:37:04

yeah, I've been signing a few at the

01:37:06

shops and uh they put a sticker on it

01:37:08

and then I encouraged them to put it out

01:37:10

the front.

01:37:13

>> I wasn't too fussy at the start, but we

01:37:15

we got to some

01:37:17

>> uh some kind of um bestselling list um

01:37:19

Wow. which was at the time I was like,

01:37:22

"Oh, maybe there's something here." So

01:37:24

then I started pushing it a bit more.

01:37:26

>> Um, but it's been a whirlwind.

01:37:29

>> Yeah. Hey, congrats, mate. Congrats on

01:37:32

everything you've done. Um, no,

01:37:34

actually, not on everything you've done.

01:37:36

>> Congrats on everything you've done

01:37:38

recently.

01:37:39

>> Yeah.

01:37:39

>> Um, and I can't wait to see what you do

01:37:41

in the future. You're you're a good dude

01:37:42

doing good stuff.

01:37:43

>> Yeah. Cheers, Dom. Thanks for having me,

01:37:44

man. Appreciate it, mate. Yeah.

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Episode Highlights

Reflections on Potential
Jay shares his disdain for the word 'potential' and its implications.
“There are all the potentials in the graveyard because people never acted on their ideas.”
@ 01m 55s
November 26, 2025
Bros for Change
Jay explains the mission of Bros for Change, focusing on real, lasting impact.
“We want to actually make real change, not just put plasters on problems.”
@ 05m 09s
November 26, 2025
The First Robbery
The adrenaline rush from the first armed robbery fueled a cycle of crime.
“I just got up and ran in.”
@ 24m 09s
November 26, 2025
Moment of Arrest
The surreal experience of being arrested, surrounded by armed police.
“I just went through the process and I was ready for my IE.”
@ 31m 55s
November 26, 2025
Reflection on Prison Life
A humorous take on the experience of being in prison and its challenges.
“I felt like I didn’t belong there.”
@ 36m 49s
November 26, 2025
Life Lessons in Prison
Prison taught me life skills and the importance of adapting to my environment.
“The most I ever learned was in prison.”
@ 47m 25s
November 26, 2025
The Reality of Prison Life
Prison isn't a holiday resort; it's a place of danger and tough lessons.
“You’re getting told what to do when to get locked down.”
@ 53m 54s
November 26, 2025
A New Beginning
After being locked up, he decided to start training and focus on rugby league.
“I want to start training.”
@ 01h 01m 38s
November 26, 2025
Redemption Through Sport
Rugby league became his passion and purpose, helping him avoid returning to prison.
“Rugby league really did save my life.”
@ 01h 07m 21s
November 26, 2025
Vulnerability on Stage
Feeling exposed can be daunting. "Yeah, it like vulnerability is hard."
@ 01h 21m 08s
November 26, 2025
A Different Approach to Teaching
A former sergeant learns the power of vulnerability while working with kids.
“What’s the sorcery?”
@ 01h 22m 11s
November 26, 2025
Proud of the Journey
Reflecting on personal growth, he expresses pride in his recovery and family.
“I’m proud of what I’ve been able to do.”
@ 01h 35m 00s
November 26, 2025

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Childhood Memories08:34
First Armed Robbery21:54
Prison Experience36:49
Camaraderie50:10
Finding Purpose1:07:21
Vulnerability in Sharing1:20:52
Vulnerability1:21:08
Pride in Growth1:35:00

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