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Welcome to the Domavvey podcast. Great
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conversations with fascinating people.
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This episode's guest is Dr. Kieran
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Kennedy, also known as the hot dog. He's
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a New Zealand born and trained
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psychiatrist and ADHD specialist.
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Shifting away from thinking about autism
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and ADHD and neurode divergence as being
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this blanket negative or a defect or a
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failing, that's where we need to shift
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away from. A lot of people with ADHD are
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incredibly creative. They're incredibly
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successful.
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>> The goal of this episode is to cut
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through the noise and misinformation
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surrounding ADHD and get good advice
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from one of Australasia's most qualified
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experts. I hope you like it.
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>> Dr. Kieran Kennedy, welcome to my
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podcast.
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>> Thank you so much for having me. Yeah.
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>> Well, look at this. The hot dog. Is Is
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it helpful or a hindrance being an
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attractive dog?
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>> Well, I'm going to sound like a prick
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however I answer that.
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Um, look, I mean, it meant for some some
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fun um, you know, patient experiences
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during medical school things in some
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ways, but yeah, maybe I'm gym obsess
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bodybuilding doctor isn't what a lot of
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people expect possibly, but
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>> yeah, cover boy as well. You've been on
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the cover of Men's Health magazine. Um,
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and if you go to your Instagram page,
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there's some modeling shots there and
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you're like, I want this guy to be my
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doctor.
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>> I was going to say either people are
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going to say that or they're going to
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say, get me out of his clinic right now.
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Um, but no, so yeah, I've dabbled in a
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few different things alongside medicine,
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so keeps it interesting.
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>> Well, I put on Instagram that you're
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coming in so I could outsource some
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questions. And I was thinking the
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questions would be um in particular in
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relation to your specialty, which is
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ADHD, and most of them were um but there
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was there was one um annoying one from a
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friend of mine, Annie,
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>> just saying um who's middle-aged by the
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way, a married mom of two. She says, "Oh
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my god, I think I just developed ADHD."
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Hello, Dr. Kennedy. Oh my god, I think
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I've also just become a cougar.
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>> Do you get do you get a bit of that in
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your line of work?
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>> A little bit. I mean, I think thankfully
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being a psychiatrist means the patient
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doctor boundaries are pretty firm with
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psychiatrists, but um yeah, a little
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bit. like you know a lot of joking which
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is good but probably as we'll go into as
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well I think maybe looking not your
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stereotypical psychiatrist and doing
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fitness modeling and bodybuilding and
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things I think it's it's now meant that
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I in a weird way get to do things like
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this because I think that's kind of what
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kicked off a lot of this initial media
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work and speaking work and I think
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people were interested to talk to
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someone about touchyfeies and mental
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health but who also was kind of doing
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bodybuilding shows and things So yeah,
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it's been a bit of a wild career rides,
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but um yeah, no, I mean, thank you Annie
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for that. That's
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>> I appreciate it.
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>> Far too.
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>> So you're um yeah, you're based in
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Sydney and you're like the um the the
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the go-to guy on the the Australia and
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Sydney media scene when it comes to
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anything professional related to ADHD.
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What brings you back to New Zealand at
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the moment?
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>> Uh visiting family. Yeah. So Faro brings
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me back here pretty regularly. So, it's
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um yeah, it's always so nice to be back
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in Oakuckland. Like, I grew up in Wuku,
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so not too far from Oakland, but then
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>> moved into the Big Smoke for uni and
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went to Oakland University for for way
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too many years, to be honest. Um so,
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yeah, spent a lot of life here in
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Oakland before, you know, um please
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don't come for me, but moving over to
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the ditch in terms of being in Sydney
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now. So, yeah, it's just lovely to come
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back and visit mom and dad and my
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brothers and
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>> and things. So, it's so nice to be home.
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So, who who was Kieran Kennedy before he
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was a doctor? Yeah. Rural upbringing.
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>> Good question. Yeah. Um, yes. Rural
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upbringing. Yep. So, I grew up in Wuku.
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Uh, my both sides of my family had dairy
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farms. So, my dad's side and mom's side
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both had big dairy farms out there out
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in sort of um Ottowaka and then the Afu
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Peninsula. So, grew up Yeah. basically
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just pretty typical, I guess, jumping in
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creeks and running around cow sheds and
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and things. Um, so that was kind of
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early life, which again is is wild to
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think that I'm kind of doing what I'm
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doing now. But yeah, I just absolutely
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loved kind of being outside and and farm
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life and things when I was a kid. So it
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was a great place to grow up.
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>> Was that ever an option to become like a
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farmer?
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>> Yeah, I mean it was I remember there was
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one point cuz I have three brothers, so
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kind of a big family of boys. There was
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a point where I remember I think it was
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my mom's side of the the farm. There was
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a bit of a is it kind of going to be
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sold up once once granddad passed away
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and things or do any of you boys kind of
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want to move into farming? Um none of us
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did. We sort of wanted to to go our own
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path which is a bit sad to think now but
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yeah no for me I I think not. I was um
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always a bit more into the books. Was a
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bit of a bookworm probably by that stage
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rather than being on the farm. So
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probably lucky cows that I didn't go
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into that. I think much more books now.
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What? Yeah. What drew you towards
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medicine? Where where did where did that
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sort of um interest or intrigue begin?
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>> Yeah. Well, I think I always I mean,
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initially I wanted to be a vet for a
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long time. I I just loved being out on
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the farm and I loved animals. You know,
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dad was also a bit animal obsessed. So,
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there was just chickens and birds and
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dogs, cats, everything else when we were
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growing up. So, always sort of knew that
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I sort of loved biology and nature and
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wanted to help people or animals
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initially in some way. And then I think
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as I kind of moved through college and
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got older, I realized I loved just
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rambling with people and talking and
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hearing their stories. And so I think
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that's when I pivoted and said, "We'll
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give med school a crack." So
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>> yeah, for better or worse. Um, but here
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we are now. So it's Yeah.
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>> So how how do you end up in psychiatry
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and and what does it sort of mean
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specifically?
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>> Yeah, it's a good question because I
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often, you know, I think there's quite a
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bit of confusion around psychiatrist,
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psychologist, kind of the different
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terms and things. So a psychiatrist I
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guess in a nutshell is a doctor who has
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specialized and done training in mental
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health. Um so we train in depression,
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anxiety, schizophrenia. There's also
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quite a lot of neurology and brain sort
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of training too. So um that's sort of a
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doctor who specialized there and then
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psychology um is equally if not more
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important. But a psychologist is someone
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who might help people through talking
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therapy and different things. Um but
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yeah for me I started doing a psychology
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degree at Oakland University and then
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after I finished that degree I decided
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you know um I would dive into doing
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another five years of study and went to
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Oakland medical school and the rest is
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history. So yeah got a wee bit swayed by
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the bright lights of plastic surgery and
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surgery for a while. I actually really
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enjoyed that as a student but I think I
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always knew that I was going to go into
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psychiatry because I loved psychology
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and just talking to people really. So,
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it's um yeah, it was a bit of a clearcut
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path for me really.
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>> Oh, did you look at the plastic surgery
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thing, did you?
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>> I did. Yeah, really. I mean, not talking
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boob jobs and things like that, but um
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yeah, I love I mean, I did a a stint in
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plastic surgery at Middlemore Hospital
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when I did my internship and it's just
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fascinating stuff. you know, that
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reconstructive plastic surgery. If
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people are in burns or they're in car
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accidents and they need sort of
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reconstructive work to their face,
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there's sort of breast cancer removal
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and breast augmentation and things. It's
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it's just amazing surgery. So, got a
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little bit swayed there for a while, but
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I think
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>> Oh, that sort of plastic. I was thinking
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more like Hollywood or Housewives of
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Melbourne.
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>> Yeah. Not quite. I mean, who knows where
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I'd be now and what I'd be doing if I
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went down that path, but um yeah, no,
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the the public plastic surgery is a lot
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different to that sort of cosmetic
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plastics. Um but yeah, I think
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eventually always knew I was going to
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move into psychiatry and just have
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always had a real passion for mental
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health really. So, it's um yeah, I sort
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of stepped away from any inklings of
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surgery and and then started my
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psychiatry training in Oakland
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initially.
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>> Yeah. When we when we set this podcast
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up, I I thought, how are we going to
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structure it because there's so many
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there I mean there's so many um angles
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and directions we could go in. You've
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even written a book about mental health
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and that's one of your sort of I suppose
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passions I guess men's mental health. Um
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that could be a podcast for another day
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all on its own. Um ultimately I decide
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the direction to go in is ADHD because
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there's so much um
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>> I don't know, so much stigma about it,
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so many questions about it, so many um
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>> so much online. Yeah.
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>> Yeah. So much BS. So how did Yeah. How
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did you get into that as sort of an area
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of expertise?
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>> Yeah, interesting. in terms of sort of I
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did my general psychiatric training and
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initially that was in Oakland and then I
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moved over to Melbourne um initially
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when I went to Australia to finish my
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training there at the Alfred Hospital in
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Melbourne and I sort of did my training
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in what they call consult liaison
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psychiatry which is working in the
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hospital and it's when I guess physical
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health conditions that are impacting the
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brain end up affecting our mental health
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our mood or causing psychotic symptoms.
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So, a real interest in brain development
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and that kind of intersection. And I
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guess that fell into then becoming
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really interested in
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neurodedevelopmental conditions, uh,
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autism, ADHD,
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>> and kind of as, as luck would have it, I
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guess it was around that same time that
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I finished my training that Australia,
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but also just the world was exploding in
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terms of of awareness for ADHD and
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information slash, as you say, BS on
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social media about ADHD. And so there
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was just a real need for psychiatrists
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to be working in that area and sort of
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came across an opportunity for for
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further training in ADHD specifically
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and then work within a clinic. So yeah,
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it's been quite a few years now that
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I've just specialized in seeing mainly
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adults for ADHD diagnosis and treatment
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and support and
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>> it's just a fascinating area but sort of
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also lends itself to sort of speaking
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and TV work and media work because there
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is a lot of misinformation around it as
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well.
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>> Do do you have ADHD yourself?
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>> I don't. No. Which I think is why I find
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it so fascinating to be honest. Um I get
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asked that question quite a lot. Um but
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yeah, I think in a lot of ways my brain
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is quite neurotypical and sometimes I I
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think um you know I would like a little
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bit of spice. I would like a bit of
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neurode divergence sometimes.
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>> Well, could could someone with ADHD um
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like do the work required to get through
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medical school?
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>> Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean,
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you know, I think as we'll go into ADHD
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and neurode divergence, autism as well,
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you know, I often talk to patients about
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it being a bit of a double-edged sword
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sometimes. There are a lot of things
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about ADHD that can make the world we
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have to live in now very difficult. But
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there are a lot of things about ADHD as
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well that can absolutely be a bit of a
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superpower to use that kind of bit of a
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corny overuse phrase. But, you know, it
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can absolutely drive a lot of, you know,
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real passion and interest, creativity,
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hyperfocus, you know, and and I know um
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doctors and and people I went to med
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school with even who have ADHD
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diagnoses. So, it's it's definitely not
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a block to anything. Um,
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>> so yeah.
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>> Well, I've got a couple of establishment
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questions and then I've got um the
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questions that I outsourced from
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Instagram. Um, I do this often with
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guests and I don't I don't recall ever
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having as many questions on one subject
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as what there's been for this.
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>> Yeah. Well, that's great.
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>> So, first of all, um, for people that
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are new to it, what is ADHD? I remember
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growing up, um, it was called ADD and it
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was generally naughty kids at school or
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kids with behavioral issues.
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>> Yeah, absolutely.
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>> Is it the same thing?
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>> It is the same thing. It's kind of we
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used to talk about it more separately as
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being hyperactivity or attentional
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issues. And so ADD was kind of the the
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old terminology, but I guess attention
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deficit hyperactivity disorder. ADHD as
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we know it now, it's a combination of
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what we call inattentive symptoms. So
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that can look like struggling to focus,
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being really distractable to things
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around us. It can be issues with memory,
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time management, organization. And then
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there's that more stereotypical
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classical hyperactivity side to ADHD.
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And that's what we used to sort of think
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about with ADHD was sort of, to be
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honest, that stereotypical naughty
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little boy that was running around the
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classroom and not able to sit still or
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kicking desks over, whatever it was. Um,
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but hyperactivity can look like really
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struggling to sit still, being
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overactive, over talkative, struggling
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with impulse control.
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>> So, what we know ADHD is now is often a
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really complex mixture of those
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different symptoms for people. And it's
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absolutely not that stereotypical old
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school view of ADHD, which is why I
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think there's been a bit of an explosion
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now for adults especially realizing they
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have this because it's it's not
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necessarily the loud overactive kind of
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naughty kid or teenager or adult. It can
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look really really different for
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different people.
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>> Why do you think there has been like a
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sudden explosion in it? It feels like
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since I don't know maybe 2020, the last
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half decade.
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I don't know, maybe it's the rise of Tik
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Tok as well. I don't know. What do you
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think? Why is it suddenly everywhere?
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>> Yeah. I mean, I definitely think,
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you know, I have a bit of a lovehate
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relationship with with social media when
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it comes to medical and health stuff.
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You know, I think there's been a lot
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more information shared from people
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themselves around having ADHD and what
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that looks like. Uh and then there's
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just been a lot more awareness I think
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for kids but also adults around what
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ADHD can look like and particularly for
00:13:48
women you know for girls and women. We
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now know that so many girls were missed
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when it comes to diagnosis of ADHD
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during childhood and and adolescence
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because they didn't look like that
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stereotypical loud naughty overactive
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hyperactive boy. And so now I think a
00:14:05
lot of people that were younger during
00:14:07
that time have now hit adulthood and
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we've become aware that ADHD can look
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very different. So more people are
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presenting for assessment and diagnosis.
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So there's a lot out there around rising
00:14:19
rates of ADHD and autism and neurode
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divergence and you know we can go down
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the the Trump rabbit hole if we want to
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but a lot of misinformation around
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what's the Tylenol thing.
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>> Oh my god, don't even get me started.
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But you know, so there's misinformation
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about why ADHD rates are rising, but a
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lot of it comes down to the fact that
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there's a different way of diagnosing
00:14:41
ADHD now. And we also know that
00:14:43
especially for adults, ADHD can look
00:14:45
very different and can actually be quite
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subtle in a lot of ways. So that sort of
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led to a bit of an explosion of info
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online and on social media, on Tik Tok,
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but also a bit of an explosion of of
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people now seeking out diagnosis.
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>> What are some of the some of the most
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common traits? And then maybe just a
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couple of the less common traits as
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well.
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>> Yeah, I mean the most common would be
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sort of the inattentive side actually
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especially for adults. And so that would
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look like really struggling to focus is
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a very very common kind of core symptom.
00:15:15
People might find it difficult to focus
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in lectures or with reading or study if
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they're studying. They might find it
00:15:21
difficult to focus on tasks for work or
00:15:24
even chores at home. They find that they
00:15:26
just lose their focus. they get very
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distracted and jump into other things
00:15:30
without finishing the first thing. Um,
00:15:32
so that's common. Um, hyperactivity is
00:15:35
still also common in adults, but rather
00:15:37
than being, you know, a little kid
00:15:39
rushing around and and sort of smashing
00:15:41
windows or anything like that, for
00:15:42
adults that might just look like being
00:15:44
very uncomfortable and restless if we
00:15:47
have to sit still. Or it might look like
00:15:49
never really resting or slowing down.
00:15:51
You know, I think we all know someone
00:15:53
who is kind of constantly rushing around
00:15:55
and busy, never stopping, always on the
00:15:57
go. So, that's really quite common as
00:15:59
well. Probably less common symptoms that
00:16:02
people maybe wouldn't really realize can
00:16:04
be difficulty actually retaining
00:16:06
information. So, a lot of patients I see
00:16:09
actually struggle to take in information
00:16:12
that they've read or if they've talked
00:16:14
to someone, they're sort of nodding
00:16:16
along and smiling politely, but then
00:16:17
when that person walks away, they they
00:16:19
realize they they didn't take any of
00:16:21
that in and they have no idea what they
00:16:22
just asked them to do. So, retention and
00:16:25
memory is is part of ADHD. And then
00:16:28
impulsivity as well. And again, for
00:16:31
adults, that's not always looking like
00:16:33
struggling with alcohol or drugs or, you
00:16:36
know, buying Porsches on a whim. It can
00:16:39
often look like struggling to manage
00:16:40
your finances or being impulsive in your
00:16:43
dating life or impulsive with decisions.
00:16:46
Um, so it can kind of look quite
00:16:48
different and subtle and people often
00:16:50
don't think that those things can be
00:16:52
part of ADHD.
00:16:54
with with your vast experience and
00:16:56
knowledge, can you see someone and sort
00:16:57
of go, you've probably got ADHD?
00:17:00
>> Uh,
00:17:00
>> or is it just way more complex than
00:17:02
that?
00:17:03
>> Look, sometimes I can, you know, amongst
00:17:06
friends and people I meet, I think
00:17:08
they're often like, please don't analyze
00:17:10
me, like cover your eyes, kind of thing.
00:17:12
Um, look, I mean, sometimes it can be
00:17:15
quite clear that someone might be
00:17:16
struggling to focus or they might be
00:17:17
quite hyperactive, but a lot of the
00:17:19
time, again, I think for adults, it's
00:17:21
it's actually quite complex and and
00:17:23
quite sort of internal. So, you know,
00:17:26
the ADHD assessment process really is
00:17:29
quite in-depth in terms of teasing out
00:17:31
and talking about a lot of these things.
00:17:33
Um, I think I've got a pretty good
00:17:34
barometer now for meeting patients and
00:17:37
kind of getting a gut feel pretty early
00:17:39
for, you know, whether we're looking at
00:17:42
ADHD or neurode divergence or maybe
00:17:44
we're looking at an anxiety disorder
00:17:46
that is also impacting someone's
00:17:48
attention and focus. So, yeah, I think
00:17:51
I've got a reasonable barometer, but um
00:17:53
I promise I switch it off when I'm not
00:17:55
in the
00:17:56
>> You're not judging judging people every
00:17:57
second.
00:17:58
>> No, I'm not analyzing people in the
00:17:59
supermarket. Thank god. I think that
00:18:01
would drive me nuts. But um yeah, pretty
00:18:04
good read otherwise.
00:18:05
>> Okay. Um as I said, I outsourced to
00:18:07
Instagram. Um so there's a ton of
00:18:09
questions here. So they may not go they
00:18:11
might be sort of scatter gun. They might
00:18:13
sort of go backwards and forwards. Um
00:18:14
but we'll run through these.
00:18:16
>> If ADHD presents itself differently in
00:18:19
people, how can you tell if someone has
00:18:21
it?
00:18:22
>> A really really great question. I think
00:18:25
it's sticking to the core symptoms in
00:18:28
terms of what I guess the DSM which is
00:18:31
our diagnostic manual that psychiatrists
00:18:33
use to kind of diagnose conditions in a
00:18:36
structured way around the world. There
00:18:39
are still a very kind of set you know uh
00:18:43
number of criteria I guess for meeting a
00:18:45
diagnosis. So, I guess the key for me if
00:18:48
I'm assessing someone, for example, is
00:18:50
to move through those symptoms, but
00:18:53
really try and tease out with that
00:18:55
person how it affects them because
00:18:57
struggling to focus for me might not
00:19:00
look like struggling to focus for you
00:19:03
depending on the type of work you do or
00:19:04
if you're studying. So it can be tricky,
00:19:07
but I guess it's kind of the
00:19:09
underpinning is that we go off those
00:19:10
core inattentive and hyperactive
00:19:13
symptoms and then from there we tease
00:19:15
out how those things impact someone. So
00:19:18
it is complex and and everyone can be
00:19:20
different, but there are sort of core
00:19:22
symptoms and things that we know really
00:19:25
look and feel and sound like ADHD. And I
00:19:27
guess those things kind of are the core
00:19:29
structure to an ADHD diagnosis that
00:19:32
everyone needs to meet.
00:19:35
How long has ADHD been around? I'm 70
00:19:37
and all of a sudden it's everywhere.
00:19:38
Yeah,
00:19:39
>> really good question. I think Yeah, my
00:19:41
grandma asked me the same thing not that
00:19:43
long ago really.
00:19:43
>> Um yeah, she was like it just was never
00:19:45
around when when we were at school and I
00:19:48
sort of
00:19:48
>> but but it was around but it just wasn't
00:19:50
diagnosed or it was left untreated.
00:19:52
>> Definitely. it was probably just wasn't
00:19:53
recognized for most people. And if it
00:19:55
was recognized, it was again, as we've
00:19:57
said, it was those, you know, kids that
00:20:00
were just absolutely not able to sit
00:20:01
still or they were running around or
00:20:03
being really disruptive. And
00:20:05
>> unfortunately, for a lot of those kids,
00:20:07
it wasn't noted as being ADHD. It was
00:20:10
labeled as just really naughty or really
00:20:13
bad. You don't want to work at school.
00:20:16
So,
00:20:17
>> it's always been there. Um but
00:20:19
absolutely, you know, it's it's
00:20:20
something that's just really come more
00:20:22
to the four recently. But it is a
00:20:24
diagnosis in some form that's been
00:20:26
really kind of talked about in present
00:20:28
sort of even from the the 1960s, the
00:20:30
'7s. And so it's been around for a long
00:20:32
time. I think it's now more that we're
00:20:35
just really really recognizing how it
00:20:36
can impact kids and adults in a more
00:20:39
subtle way. So
00:20:42
>> what's going on the on what's going on
00:20:44
in the brain of someone with ADHD?
00:20:46
>> Yep. Love that one. Um, basically, you
00:20:48
know, we could definitely talk for an
00:20:50
hour about that, but I might put you to
00:20:52
sleep. I promise I won't. Um, I guess in
00:20:54
a nutshell, we know with ADHD
00:20:57
from that point of birth really,
00:21:00
someone's brain is developing just
00:21:02
slightly different when they have ADHD
00:21:04
compared to someone who doesn't. And
00:21:05
that's the crux of a
00:21:06
neurodedevelopmental disorder. And so in
00:21:09
ADHD, we know that there are pathways
00:21:12
and circuits in the brain that just
00:21:14
function a little bit differently in
00:21:16
terms of dopamine, neurochemical levels,
00:21:19
stimulation levels compared to someone
00:21:21
who doesn't have ADHD. And a lot of that
00:21:24
is to do with the preffrontal cortex and
00:21:26
the frontal lobe, which people might
00:21:28
have heard about. That's really involved
00:21:30
in a lot of our attentional, motivation,
00:21:33
memory, personality based aspects. And
00:21:35
so it's those connections and circuits
00:21:38
in particular that we know just work
00:21:40
slightly differently for people with
00:21:41
ADHD. It's definitely not that they are
00:21:44
underworking, overworking, that they're
00:21:46
damaged or defective or flawed. It's
00:21:49
just that we know there's a spectrum of
00:21:51
the way the brain can develop and
00:21:53
operate. And for people with ADHD,
00:21:56
their development of certain areas is
00:21:58
just on a slightly different part of
00:22:00
that spectrum to someone who doesn't
00:22:01
have ADHD. And as we've said, that can
00:22:04
affect how much you focus, how
00:22:06
destructible you might be, how restless
00:22:08
you are when you're sitting still. Um,
00:22:10
so it's sort of a bit of a complex mix
00:22:12
of different chemical balances and and
00:22:15
circuitry in the brain that's just
00:22:16
slightly different.
00:22:17
>> Yeah. So you're born with it.
00:22:18
>> Yeah. So the
00:22:19
>> And is it is it exasperated with screen
00:22:22
time or
00:22:24
>> you're depleting your dopamine or
00:22:25
anything like that or
00:22:26
>> Yeah, we definitely know those things
00:22:28
can impact. So I guess like autism, the
00:22:32
current understanding of ADHD is that
00:22:34
it's it's something that we are sort of
00:22:36
born with in terms of how the brain
00:22:38
develops across childhood and across our
00:22:41
life. So that's a key part of the
00:22:42
diagnosis for adults is actually looking
00:22:45
back to early symptoms that were there
00:22:47
during your childhood or primary school
00:22:49
years.
00:22:51
And so we know there's that kind of
00:22:52
genetic or biological underpinning, but
00:22:55
then absolutely different things that
00:22:57
come our way across childhood,
00:22:59
potentially even screen time and other
00:23:01
things that can impact our focus time
00:23:03
and things that can potentially buffer
00:23:06
symptoms here and impact how prominent
00:23:08
they are or how much they get displayed
00:23:10
or not displayed.
00:23:11
>> Um, so yeah, it's a bit of a complex
00:23:13
mixture of your genetics and your
00:23:14
biology, but then also what your brain's
00:23:17
exposed to as you grow up as well. for
00:23:20
people who suspect they might have it.
00:23:21
What's what's the next step? What does
00:23:22
the assessment process look like?
00:23:24
>> Yeah, I love this one. I mean, I was
00:23:25
hoping this was going to come up because
00:23:27
I think this is one of the hardest
00:23:28
parts, especially for adults. It's well,
00:23:30
how the heck do I go about getting this
00:23:32
sorted then? For New Zealand and
00:23:35
Australia, it's very similar really. So,
00:23:37
I think the first port would be to see
00:23:39
your GP really or if you have a
00:23:40
psychologist, also talking to your
00:23:42
psychologist. And at the moment anyway,
00:23:45
it's then getting an appointment to see
00:23:47
a psychiatrist who has experience with
00:23:50
ADHD and is able to provide that
00:23:52
diagnostic assessment. Psychologists can
00:23:55
also diagnose ADHD, clinical
00:23:57
psychologists and developmental
00:23:59
psychologists. Um, but I guess in terms
00:24:01
of moving into treatment, especially
00:24:03
medication, it would be getting a
00:24:05
referral from your GP to meet with a
00:24:07
psychiatrist. That kind of needs to lend
00:24:10
itself to that pathway. Um there are
00:24:12
some changes potentially coming in in
00:24:14
New Zealand and Australia in coming
00:24:16
years actually where GPS are potentially
00:24:19
going to have further training to be
00:24:21
able to potentially diagnose and then
00:24:23
also treat ADHD too. And I guess that
00:24:26
comes from the fact that there's a real
00:24:28
bottleneck I think especially for people
00:24:29
in New Zealand when it comes to actually
00:24:32
accessing a psychiatrist. You know there
00:24:34
can be really long wait times and it can
00:24:36
also be really expensive to to get a
00:24:39
private ADHD assessment. it sort of can
00:24:41
be in the the thousands of dollars type
00:24:43
range.
00:24:44
>> So, sort of giving GPS more scope and
00:24:48
experience to potentially also help
00:24:50
diagnose ADHD is something to hopefully
00:24:53
kind of open up that access for people.
00:24:55
But yeah, I think if anyone is sitting
00:24:57
here thinking, [ __ ] I might have ADHD,
00:25:00
it would be starting with your GP and
00:25:02
booking an appointment there to just
00:25:04
discuss that and and then getting a
00:25:06
referral from there. Mhm.
00:25:07
>> I think you answered the next question
00:25:10
uh in that answer. Someone wanted to
00:25:11
know why is it such a long and costly
00:25:12
process. I think you answered that
00:25:14
there's just there's so many people that
00:25:15
want to get checked and so few
00:25:17
gatekeepers.
00:25:18
>> Absolutely. And even within psychiatry,
00:25:20
it's still quite a subsp specialized
00:25:23
field to work in. So you know if there's
00:25:25
x number of psychiatrists in the country
00:25:28
there will only be a very small
00:25:30
proportion of those psychiatrists who
00:25:32
feel comfortable or are trained or are
00:25:34
able to diagnose and then treat and
00:25:37
manage ADHD. So it's kind of a bit of a
00:25:40
bottleneck type situation at the moment.
00:25:42
But also you know ADHD really being a
00:25:45
private psychiatric um sort of diagnosis
00:25:49
at the moment too means that the cost
00:25:51
involved in that can be quite high. So,
00:25:54
you know, without getting on my soap box
00:25:55
too much today and and ranting about
00:25:57
politics, you know, I think for
00:25:59
Australia, but also New Zealand, future
00:26:02
work around ADHD needs to come with
00:26:04
opening up potential public, you know,
00:26:08
services and and um access for people
00:26:10
because that financial barrier is a
00:26:12
significant one for a lot of people. You
00:26:14
know, rightly so. people can't
00:26:16
necessarily afford to be paying
00:26:18
>> $1,500 or $2,000 to see a psychiatrist
00:26:22
for a diagnosis. So,
00:26:24
>> we do really need some shift to happen
00:26:25
there in the system as well.
00:26:27
>> Is that the sort of amount you can
00:26:28
expect to pay to be tested
00:26:30
>> potentially? Yeah, there's a there's a
00:26:31
huge range. So, there will absolutely be
00:26:34
hopefully, you know, some access that's
00:26:36
cheaper than that, but absolutely. I
00:26:38
mean, especially in Australia, people
00:26:40
paying significant kind of costs to see
00:26:43
a psychiatrist for ADHD. And again,
00:26:46
that's I think come around that demand
00:26:49
supply side and and the bottleneck kind
00:26:51
of model in terms of there are just a
00:26:53
lot of people waiting for ADHD
00:26:55
assessments. Um, you know, and I will
00:26:58
also say it's because there's a lot of
00:26:59
work that goes into the diagnostic
00:27:02
process as well. There's a lot of kind
00:27:03
of moving through scales, looking at
00:27:05
school reports. there's significant time
00:27:08
and often multiple sessions included in
00:27:10
the diagnosis. So I guess in terms of
00:27:12
seeing a specialist for that multiple
00:27:14
times overall the cost can be
00:27:16
significant. Yeah.
00:27:19
>> With that with that in mind is that is
00:27:21
it sort of like a privilege condition
00:27:23
and what what I mean is that um like if
00:27:26
I'm if if I'm work at the Bluebird
00:27:28
factory and I'm on minimum wage and I've
00:27:29
got three kids at home, the last thing
00:27:30
I'm going to do is put 1,500 bucks into
00:27:32
a diagnosis.
00:27:33
>> Yeah. 100%. And and I definitely think
00:27:35
that's part of it, you know, and that's
00:27:37
why some of the the systems around
00:27:40
mental health in general for New Zealand
00:27:42
and Australia, but especially conditions
00:27:43
like ADHD, that really needs to change
00:27:46
and there needs to be more support, I
00:27:48
think, from public health services and
00:27:50
the government to open up access here.
00:27:52
And that might look like making sure
00:27:54
more public clinicians are sort of able
00:27:57
to diagnose but also supporting people
00:27:59
maybe in terms of public funding for for
00:28:02
psychiatric assessments for ADHD as well
00:28:05
because absolutely you know I think it's
00:28:07
it is in some ways a bit of a privileged
00:28:10
position to a be able to think about
00:28:13
well your focus and destructibility and
00:28:16
some of these symptoms um but also then
00:28:19
afford to take a hit out of a family's
00:28:22
savings or income to to get this
00:28:25
assessment and and the diagnosis as
00:28:27
well. It's it's significant. So that
00:28:28
really needs to change.
00:28:30
>> Yeah. Cuz that could be the difference
00:28:31
between taking your family away for
00:28:32
Christmas holiday or even having a
00:28:33
Christmas and not does it matter if it's
00:28:36
undiagnosed?
00:28:38
>> Really depends. You know, I think this
00:28:39
is an interesting thing around neurode
00:28:41
divergence as well because I really
00:28:44
really want to make it clear for people
00:28:45
that having ADHD, autism, neurode
00:28:48
divergence, this is not a blanket
00:28:50
negative, you know, it's not a defect or
00:28:52
a flaw or a mutation. It's not because
00:28:55
of Tylenol or paracetamol obviously, you
00:28:58
know, and so for a lot of people living
00:29:00
with ADHD especially, it can have a lot
00:29:02
of strengths and great things to it. And
00:29:05
if that's the case, people might not
00:29:07
necessarily feel they need to get a
00:29:09
formal kind of medical diagnostic stamp
00:29:11
or get treatment. You know, even
00:29:14
personally, I know people who, you know,
00:29:16
we think, well, probably there's a a
00:29:18
little bit of a whiff of ADHD there, but
00:29:20
they're really happy. It's serving them
00:29:22
in their lives. They're not feeling it's
00:29:24
sort of enabling sort of disabling them
00:29:26
in any way. And so, someone in that sort
00:29:29
of boat might not want to seek out a
00:29:31
formal diagnosis or get treatment. And I
00:29:33
think that's really important to call
00:29:35
out. But where it does tip into causing
00:29:38
significant negative impacts or
00:29:40
impacting someone's potential with study
00:29:42
or work or relationships, that's when it
00:29:45
obviously borders into that disorder
00:29:47
territory and where someone really might
00:29:49
feel they need that medical kind of
00:29:51
diagnosis and treatment and support.
00:29:53
>> Yeah. Is it um is it incorrect or even
00:29:58
offensive if someone that doesn't have a
00:29:59
diagnosis like talks about oh you know
00:30:01
my ADHD brain potentially. I mean, and
00:30:05
again, I think that's where some of that
00:30:07
stigma comes in around, you know, even
00:30:10
now, you know, we hear it and and it's
00:30:12
out there in terms of like, oh, yeah,
00:30:15
he's got ADHD, or like, well, my ADHD is
00:30:18
playing up again, you know, and I think
00:30:20
it can be used in a bit of a
00:30:22
stigmatizing way in terms of sometimes
00:30:24
it's to do with things that just aren't
00:30:26
ADHD at all, you know. So, it definitely
00:30:29
can tip into that. And that's where
00:30:30
again I think that stereotypical view of
00:30:33
a little boy struggling to sit still in
00:30:35
class and being really naughty and
00:30:37
misbehaving. That's where that kind of
00:30:39
stigma and stereotype can carry over a
00:30:41
bit still.
00:30:43
>> Yeah. I suppose that leads onto this
00:30:44
question. Uh what can I say to shut down
00:30:47
people who say h everyone's got ADHD
00:30:49
these days? It really grinds my gears.
00:30:51
>> Yeah. And I absolutely hear you. You
00:30:53
know, I think for people who have a
00:30:55
diagnosis of ADHD or think they might,
00:30:58
this can be one of the hardest parts
00:31:01
about living right now with neurode
00:31:03
divergence. You know, I think there's so
00:31:05
much online and in social media and
00:31:07
there's all this misinformation. I think
00:31:09
people who are concerned they might have
00:31:12
ADHD can often kind of gaslight
00:31:14
themselves a little bit to be honest and
00:31:16
and say well you know everyone saying
00:31:18
they have it now or people are talking
00:31:21
about having ADHD if they you know can't
00:31:24
focus on their phone for 5 seconds you
00:31:26
know and and so that is really difficult
00:31:29
I think in terms of how we might respond
00:31:31
to someone saying that in terms of oh no
00:31:33
you don't have it everyone's got ADHD
00:31:36
that's definitely not the case everyone
00:31:38
might struggle with focus. At points,
00:31:40
all of us might forget something or mix
00:31:42
someone's name up or if we're sitting in
00:31:45
a car for two hours, we might feel a bit
00:31:47
antsy and restless. So, everyone
00:31:49
potentially struggles with features that
00:31:52
can look and feel like ADHD, but not
00:31:54
everyone has the certain clustering of
00:31:58
those symptoms at a severe enough level
00:32:01
to warrant an ADHD diagnosis. So, yeah,
00:32:04
I don't know. without saying jog on. I
00:32:06
mean, I think I think if people are kind
00:32:08
of hearing that, it would be, you know,
00:32:10
just politely letting them know that um
00:32:13
absolutely not everyone has ADHD. About
00:32:16
2.6%
00:32:18
of New Zealand adults have a diagnosis
00:32:21
of ADHD. Um so it's definitely not
00:32:23
everyone, but it is a significant
00:32:25
number. And probably the number of
00:32:26
adults that
00:32:27
>> have it, but don't have a diagnosis yet
00:32:29
is quite a lot more than that. So again,
00:32:32
I think there's this a bit of a
00:32:34
misconception in terms of just we're
00:32:36
hearing so much about it. It feels like
00:32:38
everyone's bloody got it or thinking
00:32:40
they've got it, but it it actually still
00:32:42
is quite a a subsp specialized kind of
00:32:44
not overly common condition in a lot of
00:32:46
ways, too.
00:32:47
>> Yeah. 2%'s tiny.
00:32:49
>> Yeah,
00:32:49
>> that really surprises me. Does it does
00:32:51
it um change or evolve with age? like
00:32:53
does it does it do the symptoms get uh
00:32:56
you know worse or better or
00:32:58
>> yeah I mean it really depends on the
00:32:59
person but for a lot of people it can
00:33:01
change and get better. So for a lot of
00:33:03
adults with ADHD if they were really
00:33:06
quite hyperactive or more physically
00:33:08
restless and things as a child that
00:33:11
often gets better as we get older for
00:33:13
adults it sort of tempers itself a bit
00:33:15
but also understandably as we get older
00:33:17
we get a little bit better hopefully at
00:33:19
containing some of that energy or
00:33:21
impulsivity. So adults are more likely
00:33:23
to have the more focus, attention, time
00:33:26
management, memory side of symptoms
00:33:29
because the hyperactive side often
00:33:31
changes. So it can definitely change
00:33:33
over time. Um, something else I want to
00:33:35
let people know is that it can sort of
00:33:37
change as well across your life
00:33:38
depending on what's on your plate, you
00:33:40
know. So I often meet people for the
00:33:42
first time who have always struggled a
00:33:46
little bit, but maybe then they've had
00:33:47
their first child. And so for women,
00:33:50
often ADHD can really start to ramp up
00:33:52
and impact things more when they're just
00:33:54
juggling more. They're juggling a
00:33:56
toddler now as well as trying to go back
00:33:58
to work. Or I might meet someone who's
00:34:01
had a promotion at work and suddenly the
00:34:04
increased demands of their new job makes
00:34:07
focus and memory and attention really
00:34:09
really start to ramp up and impact their
00:34:11
ability to work. So symptoms can
00:34:14
definitely change in flux depending on
00:34:15
what's going on in our life, how much
00:34:17
pressure is on our brain, also even
00:34:19
other mental health struggles. It can
00:34:21
worsen if we're depressed or anxious
00:34:23
too.
00:34:24
>> Does it present differently in men and
00:34:26
women?
00:34:27
>> Can do. Yeah. So women, especially as
00:34:29
adults, are more likely to have more
00:34:31
internal or inattentive symptoms. So
00:34:34
women are more likely to struggle with
00:34:37
focus, memory, time management, that
00:34:39
side of things. They're also more likely
00:34:41
to feel hyperactivity in terms of
00:34:44
restlessness and fidgeting or wanting to
00:34:47
talk or interrupt others. But women are
00:34:49
far more likely to contain those
00:34:52
symptoms. And so a lot here is also to
00:34:54
do with that socialization of girls and
00:34:57
women in terms of well if you're a good
00:34:59
girl then you are quiet and you behave
00:35:02
and you sit still in class. Whereas for
00:35:05
boys and men in terms of the boys will
00:35:07
be boys and no he's just a you know a
00:35:09
young lad boys are more able to express
00:35:13
hyperactivity and energy and loudness.
00:35:16
So I actually meet a lot of women who
00:35:18
have always kind of sat holding in this
00:35:21
kind of sense of restlessness and
00:35:23
fidgeting and impulsivity because for
00:35:26
various reasons, you know, girls and
00:35:28
women are kind of taught from a young
00:35:30
age that they really just need to be
00:35:32
quiet and polite and behave and they
00:35:35
need to contain those symptoms. So it
00:35:37
definitely can look a lot different for
00:35:39
for men and women because of kind of
00:35:41
biology, but also because of kind of
00:35:43
stereotypes around masculinity and
00:35:45
femininity and what's okay to express or
00:35:48
show as a man versus a woman.
00:35:51
>> Yeah. With that in mind, what's the
00:35:52
reaction do you see when adults get
00:35:54
diagnosed? Is it um like is it um is it
00:35:57
is it is it crushing? Is it a sense of
00:35:59
relief? Is there shame or what is it?
00:36:03
>> Yeah. I mean, any one of those words
00:36:05
you've just said, Dom, is like pretty
00:36:07
common. Um, I often talk to people about
00:36:09
it feeling like a weird mixture of
00:36:11
emotions. Lots of patients tell me
00:36:13
there's a sense of
00:36:14
>> real relief, you know, validation.
00:36:17
They've kind of maybe thought
00:36:18
something's there or something's wrong
00:36:20
or difficult for quite a long time,
00:36:23
maybe years or decades. So, often, you
00:36:26
know, when I tell people at the end of
00:36:27
the assessment, you know, yes, I do
00:36:29
think you have ADHD. For a lot of
00:36:31
people, it's quite emotional in terms of
00:36:33
being this overwhelming relief and a
00:36:36
sense of validation. You know, I think a
00:36:38
lot of adults might have grown up being
00:36:40
told they were lazy or they were dumb.
00:36:43
That's something I hear a lot is people
00:36:44
sort of saying, "Well, I just always
00:36:46
felt like maybe I was dumb because I
00:36:48
couldn't keep up in class." So,
00:36:50
>> it's often really positive and
00:36:52
validating, but then there can be a
00:36:54
mixture of sort of a little bit of grief
00:36:56
and even anger and sadness, too. I think
00:36:59
for a lot of adults getting diagnosed,
00:37:01
there's often a bit of sadness and
00:37:03
frustration and anger around the fact
00:37:05
that well, I very clearly had these
00:37:07
symptoms as a kid or I was really
00:37:09
struggling in school, but people just
00:37:11
told me I was naughty or lazy or, you
00:37:14
know, I wasn't smart. So, there can
00:37:16
often be a bit of a weird kind of
00:37:18
melting pot of different emotions with
00:37:20
it.
00:37:20
>> Yes. It's almost like a sense of
00:37:22
validation in a way for Yeah. Oh, that's
00:37:24
sad. Someone said, um, what would be the
00:37:26
benefits of me getting tested and
00:37:27
diagnosed? I'm a 50-y old male.
00:37:30
>> Really good question. Um, I think it
00:37:32
depends for me as a psychiatrist, it
00:37:35
depends on how much you think those
00:37:37
symptoms are impacting your life,
00:37:39
>> you know, at whatever age you're at,
00:37:41
whether you're in your 50s or you're in
00:37:43
your 70s. You know, I've met people in
00:37:44
their 60s and 70s for ADHD assessments
00:37:47
and diagnosis. And again, whether it's
00:37:50
work, whether it's family life, whether
00:37:52
it's things with sports or hobbies, I
00:37:55
think if there are things with potential
00:37:57
focus or hyperactivity where you feel
00:38:00
actually this is impacting my life, it's
00:38:02
affecting my mood, it's affecting my
00:38:04
family life, it's affecting my ability
00:38:06
to progress my hobby or career in this
00:38:09
way. no matter what age you are, you
00:38:12
know, I think someone can then benefit
00:38:14
from knowing the diagnosis is there and
00:38:17
even potentially seeking out treatment
00:38:18
to improve those things too. I think
00:38:21
again it can be a little bit of a stigma
00:38:22
or a stereotype that ADHD and autism and
00:38:25
things are just things that kids get
00:38:27
diagnosed with and that you know if
00:38:29
you're beyond that then there's really
00:38:30
no point. But um it again depends on how
00:38:33
much someone thinks this is impacting
00:38:34
their life in a negative way.
00:38:37
Um there's a term that gets thrown
00:38:38
around a bit these days. Um active
00:38:40
relaxer.
00:38:41
>> You've heard active relaxer. Is is that
00:38:43
an ADHD thing or not? It can be but not
00:38:46
always.
00:38:46
>> It might be. Yeah. You know, I think a
00:38:48
lot of people with ADHD that have more
00:38:50
maybe hyperactive traits, they really
00:38:53
would not feel that it's relaxing or
00:38:55
comfortable in any way to just blob on
00:38:58
the couch or watch a movie or Love
00:39:00
Island for six episodes.
00:39:02
>> Yeah. Exactly. you know, I mean, I might
00:39:03
love that, but I think for for someone
00:39:05
with hyperactivity or ADHD, for them
00:39:08
that would often actually feel really
00:39:10
quite uncomfortable to to relax and rest
00:39:13
with doing nothing. So, for them, they
00:39:16
might find themselves actually much
00:39:18
happier and more relaxed in a way if
00:39:20
they are active and on the go. They're
00:39:22
into sport or exercise or doing
00:39:24
different jobs or diving into the
00:39:25
backyard. But again, I think it's
00:39:28
important to call out, as with a lot of
00:39:30
these things, just because someone's an
00:39:32
active relaxer doesn't necessarily mean
00:39:34
they have ADHD. I think personalitywise
00:39:37
and and for other reasons, a lot of
00:39:39
people actually just prefer to be active
00:39:41
and on the go. And exercise or running
00:39:43
or sport for them is is a real mindful
00:39:46
relaxing thing. So, yeah, bit of an
00:39:48
annoying psychiatristy answer to say it
00:39:50
can be, but also it might not be.
00:39:52
>> No, no, no, that's a great answer. Thank
00:39:53
you. Um on Instagram someone asked uh
00:39:57
there's a common saying just try the
00:39:58
medication and if it works you've got
00:40:00
ADHD. Is there any truth to that or is
00:40:02
that just a myth?
00:40:03
>> Bit of a myth. Yeah, I often hear that
00:40:05
one too. People are like well if you
00:40:07
take rolin and it just you know makes
00:40:09
you want to party or it does nothing
00:40:12
then that shows you don't have ADHD. Um
00:40:15
that's not wholly true you know
00:40:18
unfortunately. I mean, it might put me
00:40:20
out of a job if that was the way we
00:40:22
worked out how people, you know, how we
00:40:24
sort of work out the diagnosis. Um, but
00:40:27
no, you know, I think even people with
00:40:29
ADHD,
00:40:31
not all of the medication is helpful for
00:40:33
all people with ADHD. So someone with
00:40:35
ADHD might be prescribed rtoolin for
00:40:38
example as a common treatment a common
00:40:40
medication and even though they have
00:40:42
really significant ADHD that medication
00:40:44
just might not actually do much for them
00:40:46
or help them with focus or calming. Um
00:40:50
so yeah I think doing the old trying one
00:40:53
from a friend or something and then
00:40:55
working out whether you have it based on
00:40:57
that. Um, yeah, bit of a myth.
00:41:00
>> That must um Does that grind you a
00:41:01
gears? Like you you've done 10 years of
00:41:03
study or whatever it is and someone that
00:41:05
reads something online thinks they can
00:41:07
bypass that.
00:41:08
>> Oh, sometimes, you know, I'm not going
00:41:11
to lie, in terms of some of the stuff we
00:41:13
see on social media, you know,
00:41:15
Instagram, Tik Tok, some of it is really
00:41:18
not very helpful. Um, and you know,
00:41:21
again, with all respect to everyone
00:41:23
else, there there's a lot of people
00:41:24
online giving people really quite
00:41:28
significant health advice actually. Um,
00:41:31
and again, it's with respect that, you
00:41:32
know, sometimes I might think, well, you
00:41:35
haven't actually done a psychology
00:41:37
degree. You're not a doctor. Um, but
00:41:40
again, it depends. I think when people
00:41:42
are sharing their personal experience
00:41:44
and things they've heard and seen what
00:41:45
works for them,
00:41:47
>> that's amazing. I love that. And I love
00:41:49
that about social media now in terms of
00:41:51
getting people's experience and
00:41:53
knowledge out there. But yeah, when it
00:41:56
tips into people kind of giving health
00:41:59
advice or feeling that they maybe might
00:42:02
know better than a health professional,
00:42:03
that can get a little bit dangerous and
00:42:05
a little bit gear grinding at times.
00:42:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. Calm down. You've got
00:42:08
200,000 followers, but you really know
00:42:10
[ __ ]
00:42:11
>> But I mean, that's currency these days.
00:42:13
That beats my medical degree.
00:42:15
>> Yeah. 200,000 followers. you can
00:42:17
probably earn more than what you're
00:42:18
earning with your degrees.
00:42:19
>> Absolutely.
00:42:20
>> Um, what can someone expect when they
00:42:22
start taking ADHD medicine?
00:42:25
>> Uh, really good question. I mean, in
00:42:27
terms of, let's say, the classic what to
00:42:29
expect if the medication's working and
00:42:32
working well, someone might notice or
00:42:34
expect their focus and attention to
00:42:37
improve. They might just be able to
00:42:39
stick with a task for longer without
00:42:41
getting distracted or their mind
00:42:43
wandering. They might have less
00:42:44
procrastination, be able to start things
00:42:47
better. If someone's actually quite
00:42:48
hyperactive, they might feel like their
00:42:50
brain and body are actually just a lot
00:42:52
calmer and more able to sit in a meeting
00:42:55
or sit for study or or different parts
00:42:58
of work.
00:42:59
>> But again, you know, it's why I love
00:43:01
what I do. But it's very very
00:43:03
individual. You know, there's no kind of
00:43:05
blanket statement of you take the
00:43:07
medication and then you will feel this
00:43:09
way. Because just like ADHD can look at
00:43:11
different for everyone, the effects of
00:43:13
the medication can also look different
00:43:15
for everyone as well. So it's a very
00:43:17
individual kind of unique thing in terms
00:43:19
of what it actually does and how it
00:43:21
works.
00:43:22
>> Those first things that you said um that
00:43:25
would feel like a gamecher I think for a
00:43:26
lot of people.
00:43:27
>> Yeah.
00:43:28
>> It would be like an epiphany.
00:43:30
>> Absolutely. You know, and part of the
00:43:32
reason I love this work as well is when
00:43:34
we get the diagnosis right and we
00:43:37
prescribe the right treatment and it
00:43:39
works and maybe someone's also getting
00:43:41
psychology support and things when it
00:43:43
all sings like that, it can be
00:43:46
absolutely lifechanging for people, you
00:43:48
know, and there's heaps of different
00:43:49
things I hear from people in terms of
00:43:51
how it helps them. But, you know, it's
00:43:53
it's always so rewarding to come back
00:43:56
and meet someone for a follow-up session
00:43:58
after we've started medication and to
00:44:00
have them say, "Oh my god, like I never
00:44:02
realized that other people's brains
00:44:05
aren't just constantly full of noise and
00:44:08
random songs and thoughts and looking at
00:44:10
that bird outside the window." You know,
00:44:13
people actually feeling like their brain
00:44:15
quiet, you know, quiets down even that
00:44:19
can just be lifechanging for people. So
00:44:22
it can be really really helpful and
00:44:23
effective.
00:44:24
>> Can can it be successfully managed
00:44:27
without medication?
00:44:29
>> Absolutely.
00:44:29
>> Yeah. And I think this is really really
00:44:32
important because I think a lot of the
00:44:33
stuff and especially what we see online
00:44:35
about ADHD is very medication focused
00:44:39
and I think especially that's a bit of a
00:44:41
worry sometimes for parents in terms of
00:44:43
kids. Um, but definitely there are uh
00:44:46
massively kind of um effective
00:44:48
treatments for ADHD that don't involve
00:44:50
medication. There's ADHD specific
00:44:53
psychology and coaching and obviously
00:44:56
that takes a little bit more work and
00:44:58
time than taking a tablet, but that is
00:45:01
just as effective for a lot of people as
00:45:03
a medication. So, there are definitely
00:45:05
things on that front. And then we also
00:45:08
know, which I really froth over as well,
00:45:10
we know that there's a lot of things
00:45:11
just lifestyle and physical health-wise
00:45:13
that can help improve ADHD as well. We
00:45:16
actually know that exercise and sport
00:45:18
can kind of cause a a dopamine change in
00:45:21
the brain in the same way certain doses
00:45:23
of medication can. So regular exercise
00:45:26
and activity for people with ADHD is in
00:45:30
a way also actually treating and
00:45:32
improving ADHD symptoms. diet, sleep,
00:45:36
looking after your mood and anxiety
00:45:38
levels. All of these things can be
00:45:40
massively helpful to improving ADHD. And
00:45:43
so sometimes what we do is work with
00:45:45
people around those things and we might
00:45:47
never actually touch medication at all.
00:45:50
>> All those things you said um they're
00:45:52
they're just generally good for a
00:45:53
person's overall well-being, aren't
00:45:55
they?
00:45:56
>> 100%. you know, and I think that's when
00:45:57
I first especially started getting into
00:45:59
the media and speaking kind of work in
00:46:01
medicine was because people were sort of
00:46:04
like this is kind of weird for a dude
00:46:07
working in mental health to also be
00:46:08
bodybuilding.
00:46:10
But for me it was almost a bit weird
00:46:12
that we weren't thinking that those
00:46:14
things should go hand in hand because
00:46:17
exercise, sport, our diet, our sleep,
00:46:20
getting out in nature, we now know that
00:46:23
all of these things have a massive kind
00:46:25
of part to play when it comes to how our
00:46:28
general mental health is doing as well.
00:46:29
So
00:46:30
>> that's definitely true for ADHD as well.
00:46:32
>> Oh yeah, just a sidebar, there's um
00:46:35
nothing worse than an unfit doctor, eh?
00:46:37
>> Wow.
00:46:38
Like does it annoy you when you see
00:46:40
someone that's giving out medical advice
00:46:41
and they can't take, you know, great
00:46:43
care of themselves?
00:46:44
>> Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's tricky,
00:46:46
isn't it? Because I think doctors are
00:46:49
also just people, you know, and I think,
00:46:51
well, God, we won't even go there, but I
00:46:53
think doctors can have their own vices
00:46:55
in so many ways and struggle with, you
00:46:58
know, similar things. And you know I I
00:47:01
think it's really really important the
00:47:02
main part is that that doctors are kind
00:47:04
of not bringing their personal side of
00:47:07
things into recommendations for
00:47:08
patients. But
00:47:10
>> yeah I mean god all of us are just human
00:47:12
too and so I think doctors can struggle
00:47:14
with weight and health and exercise and
00:47:16
things just as much as others as well.
00:47:19
>> What misconception about ADHD frustrates
00:47:22
you the most as a psychiatrist?
00:47:25
>> That's a really good one. I mean, I
00:47:27
think for me it would be something we've
00:47:29
already touched on, which is that sense
00:47:30
of h everyone has ADHD now or I've
00:47:34
actually even unfortunately heard it
00:47:35
from medical colleagues as well in terms
00:47:38
of h this isn't even a real condition.
00:47:41
This is something that's just made up so
00:47:42
private psychiatrists and can make money
00:47:45
and you know go away to Europe on their
00:47:47
holidays and so that's
00:47:50
>> Did you go to Europe on your holiday?
00:47:52
I may have actually, but you've really
00:47:55
dropped me in at.
00:47:59
Yeah. [ __ ] I kind of walked into that
00:48:00
one, didn't I?
00:48:01
>> But a European summer is wonderful.
00:48:03
>> That had nothing to do with my work.
00:48:06
>> No, but you know, I think it's that it's
00:48:08
it's the stigma side of it. And it's not
00:48:11
just with ADHD, but it's it's medicine
00:48:13
in general. I think there can be still a
00:48:17
massive amount of stigma around mental
00:48:21
health and psychiatry. And so that is
00:48:24
kind of one of the main things that
00:48:25
frustrates me in terms of, you know,
00:48:27
even unfortunately hearing from GPS
00:48:30
sometimes in terms of GPS having told
00:48:32
their patients, oh, you don't have ADHD.
00:48:35
That's just something that everyone
00:48:36
thinks they've got now. And if you see
00:48:38
the psychiatrist, they'll definitely say
00:48:40
you have it because they, you know, are
00:48:42
telling everyone they've got it. And
00:48:44
that is just absolutely not true. And
00:48:47
also it's just very damaging and
00:48:49
discriminatory not only to my profession
00:48:51
but to people living with with mental
00:48:54
illness or living with ADHD or autism.
00:48:56
So yeah, that's definitely my soap boxy
00:49:00
kind of gear grind. That's for sure.
00:49:02
>> How do you distinguish between someone
00:49:04
genuinely struggling with ADHD and
00:49:06
someone simply caught in modernday
00:49:08
distraction?
00:49:09
>> Yeah. And I mean, that's a big part of
00:49:11
of my work. And when I meet someone for
00:49:13
an ADHD assessment, that's probably the
00:49:15
hardest part, actually, is trying to
00:49:18
work out, well, are you experiencing
00:49:21
struggles with focus and attention and
00:49:23
memory because we're looking at ADHD, or
00:49:27
are you struggling because you are
00:49:29
juggling three jobs and you don't sleep
00:49:33
more than three hours a night? or maybe
00:49:35
you have depression, maybe you have an
00:49:38
anxiety disorder. And so all of these
00:49:40
other things, including modern-day
00:49:42
pressures, can sometimes kind of really
00:49:44
make it tricky to work out what's
00:49:46
causing what. Um, often, again, I mean,
00:49:50
someone who's trained as a psychologist
00:49:52
or a psychiatrist to diagnose ADHD,
00:49:54
that's a big part of it is teasing out
00:49:56
what's going on here. But definitely a
00:49:59
part of the ADHD assessment process is
00:50:02
making sure that there isn't another
00:50:04
condition or something else going on
00:50:06
here that actually might be kind of
00:50:08
>> masking and looking like ADHD. So a big
00:50:11
part of my work is also sometimes
00:50:13
telling people I don't think you have
00:50:16
ADHD. I think you have an anxiety
00:50:18
disorder or you might actually have
00:50:21
bipolar disorder. You might have
00:50:23
depression. And so kind of helping
00:50:25
support people with treatments and
00:50:27
avenues for those things even as an
00:50:29
initial step and then coming back to see
00:50:31
if ADHD is there underneath. That's a
00:50:34
big part of the process as well.
00:50:35
>> Oh, that's interesting. It it can sort
00:50:37
of present as those other things as
00:50:38
well.
00:50:39
>> Definitely. Wow.
00:50:40
>> So I think we don't think enough about
00:50:42
that side of depression and anxiety
00:50:44
disorders or other mental health
00:50:46
conditions. But
00:50:47
>> that's so interesting.
00:50:48
>> Absolutely. If someone has a really
00:50:51
nasty sort of dug in anxiety disorder,
00:50:54
let's say generalized anxiety disorder
00:50:56
or panic disorder, that can absolutely
00:51:00
shortcircuit our ability to focus or not
00:51:03
get distracted or remember things. If
00:51:06
someone is really depressed, what it can
00:51:09
actually do is affect the cognition of
00:51:11
the brain and even look like dementia
00:51:13
for some people if they're significantly
00:51:15
depressed. So part of ADHD assessment is
00:51:19
also making sure there isn't something
00:51:21
else going on that is kind of causing
00:51:24
the same symptoms that might look like
00:51:26
ADHD. So
00:51:27
>> it's definitely a a pretty complex kind
00:51:30
of process as well to tease all that
00:51:31
out.
00:51:32
>> Yeah. What are some of the most common
00:51:35
misdiagnosis you see before ADHD is
00:51:37
properly identified?
00:51:39
>> This is a common one especially for
00:51:41
girls and women. You know, I meet a lot
00:51:43
of women now who have been told for
00:51:46
many, many years, you have anxiety or
00:51:49
you're just stressed or, you know, you
00:51:52
need to kind of um sleep more and you
00:51:54
know, so they've been told things that
00:51:56
>> eat more iron.
00:51:58
>> Well, exactly. Yeah. You know, and so a
00:52:00
lot of of sort of struggling with ADHD
00:52:02
type symptoms can be put down to other
00:52:04
things.
00:52:05
>> And again, that's because it's complex.
00:52:07
As we've just said, an anxiety disorder
00:52:09
or depression can look like ADHD
00:52:11
sometimes,
00:52:12
>> but also I think there's been a big
00:52:14
misunderstanding about what ADHD looks
00:52:17
like too, especially for girls and
00:52:18
women. And so, yeah, I think kind of
00:52:21
anxiety, depression, being told you're
00:52:23
just generally struggling with your
00:52:25
mental health. That's a very common one
00:52:27
to see people come to me with, you know,
00:52:29
and then when we go through everything,
00:52:31
we actually realize, well, you you've
00:52:33
had pretty significant ADHD your whole
00:52:35
life. It's not anxiety.
00:52:39
>> How's how's that for people to digest?
00:52:41
Is that like a relief? Is that is that
00:52:43
good news? Is it
00:52:45
>> I mean, I think often it's it's really
00:52:46
relieving and validating and can be
00:52:48
quite emotional in a positive way
00:52:50
because I think, you know, it doesn't
00:52:53
matter whether it's your physical health
00:52:54
or your mental health. I think a lot of
00:52:55
people can relate to feeling that
00:52:58
something's not right or maybe we're not
00:53:00
kind of quite down the right track of
00:53:02
the diagnosis or the treatment. And it
00:53:05
can be very isolating and difficult to
00:53:07
feel like you're in the medical system
00:53:09
or seeing a doctor or a psychologist and
00:53:11
you're not feeling heard in terms of
00:53:13
what you're experiencing or what you
00:53:15
feel in your gut is going on. So I think
00:53:18
it is really really validating and and
00:53:20
positive for some people to kind of hear
00:53:22
that in the end.
00:53:24
>> How do you help patients move from
00:53:26
something's wrong with me to this is
00:53:28
part of how my brain works?
00:53:30
>> Oh, I love that question. Um, look, it
00:53:33
doesn't happen overnight, you know, and
00:53:34
and I always talk to patients about, you
00:53:37
know, you might feel actually really
00:53:39
angry and upset that this has been
00:53:41
missed till now, or you might feel a
00:53:44
little bit of a mixture of shame. You
00:53:46
know, I think a lot of people actually
00:53:47
come to see me and they say,
00:53:49
>> I haven't told anyone that I'm having
00:53:51
this appointment. You know, I haven't
00:53:52
told my parents or my partner or my
00:53:55
friends because there still can be kind
00:53:56
of shame and guilt when it comes to this
00:53:58
stuff. So, I really just tell people to
00:54:02
to let those emotions just come out and
00:54:04
and feel them however they sort of come
00:54:07
and kind of just giving your brain time
00:54:09
to process that is the main thing. But
00:54:12
again, I think it's pushing back on that
00:54:14
stigma and like we've said, you know,
00:54:16
autism, ADHD, neurodedevelopmental
00:54:18
conditions, these are not kind of flaws
00:54:22
or defects. These are not our brain
00:54:24
should be operating on this level but
00:54:26
people with ADHD are at this lower
00:54:28
level. That is not what
00:54:30
neurodedevelopmental conditions are.
00:54:32
They are just a different way of the
00:54:34
brain developing and and sort of
00:54:37
filtering in the world and and things.
00:54:39
So I think talking to people about that
00:54:42
in in terms of that misconception of
00:54:45
what ADHD is is often one of the best
00:54:47
ways to kind of shift from that I have a
00:54:50
disease or a disorder or I'm defective
00:54:52
to I just have a neurodedevelopmental
00:54:55
condition and that just means my brain
00:54:57
operates on a slightly different part of
00:54:58
the spectrum compared to maybe the
00:55:00
person sitting next to me.
00:55:02
>> How can friends, family or employers
00:55:05
better support someone with ADHD? H uh I
00:55:08
think really the understanding part is
00:55:10
the big one here. So you know I think
00:55:12
whether we're friends especially friends
00:55:14
and family it's hearing that person out
00:55:16
and believing them when they tell you
00:55:19
they are struggling. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:55:22
You know but also not kind of just
00:55:24
pushing you know oh everyone's got it
00:55:26
now or that's fashionable.
00:55:27
>> Yeah. That's because you're on your
00:55:29
phone 5 hours a day. I'm guilty.
00:55:31
>> That might not help. It doesn't help me
00:55:33
that's for sure. But, you know, that's
00:55:35
also not what ADHD is. So, I think this
00:55:38
is for mental health in general as well.
00:55:39
Obviously, when someone comes to us and
00:55:42
says, "I'm struggling or something is
00:55:44
there or something's not right." It's
00:55:46
just hearing them in that moment. Just
00:55:49
listening to them, not trying to fix it
00:55:51
or solve it or push it away with, "Oh,
00:55:53
well, that's just rubbish. That's a tick
00:55:54
tock diagnosis." It's just hearing them
00:55:57
and believing them, you know. And then I
00:55:59
think when it comes to workplaces or
00:56:01
family life, it's also being open to the
00:56:05
fact that there are just different ways
00:56:06
that people's brains operate best. And
00:56:09
so in a workplace that might look like
00:56:11
being understanding of someone wearing
00:56:13
noise cancelling headphones in the
00:56:15
office to kind of get distractions out.
00:56:17
It might be understanding of them
00:56:18
needing written instructions so that
00:56:21
they can remember kind of instructions
00:56:23
better, you know. So, I think it's just
00:56:25
taking into account some of the things
00:56:27
that people feel can help them operate
00:56:30
best and kind of not shutting those
00:56:33
things down because they're maybe
00:56:34
different to the majority. I think it's
00:56:36
again just being open.
00:56:39
>> You just said there about written
00:56:40
instructions. Is that is that a thing
00:56:43
>> that can help? Yeah.
00:56:44
>> Oh my [ __ ] god. Like,
00:56:45
>> are you a list man or
00:56:47
>> My god, I um I feel so embarrassed about
00:56:49
so much stuff I I do, but like
00:56:52
everyone's on Outlook these days or your
00:56:54
calendar online, but I still like having
00:56:56
an old traditional diary and I I like to
00:56:59
write things down and
00:57:00
>> it's something that I sort of keep
00:57:01
hidden because it's embarrassing because
00:57:03
it makes me look like a boomer, but I
00:57:05
need to write things down.
00:57:06
>> You like having it physically kind of
00:57:08
Yeah, definitely. And again, that's
00:57:10
that's probably just you and that's how
00:57:13
you feel things flow best and you can
00:57:15
keep track of things.
00:57:16
>> But yeah, for people with ADHD, having
00:57:19
things in multiple different formats in
00:57:21
terms of audio, written, you know, that
00:57:23
can help information soak in and stick.
00:57:27
And it also can make us feel we're kind
00:57:29
of just more in control of the logistics
00:57:32
and organization, what's going on. So
00:57:34
yeah, I won't diagnose you over the
00:57:36
table, D, but
00:57:37
>> Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Um, what gives
00:57:40
you the most hope about uh the growing
00:57:42
conversation around ADHD?
00:57:44
>> I think the most hope is around the fact
00:57:47
that it's becoming more okay to talk
00:57:51
about ADHD and to talk about mental
00:57:53
health in general. You know, I think for
00:57:55
me that's one of the biggest things that
00:57:57
came from the the pandemic, you know, is
00:58:00
just even when it comes to depression
00:58:02
and anxiety and we've had
00:58:04
>> athletes and you know, all manner of
00:58:07
people coming out being honest now and
00:58:09
open about struggling with their mental
00:58:11
health or having a diagnosis having
00:58:13
ADHD. For me, that's the most hopeful
00:58:16
kind of positive part to it because for
00:58:18
a long long time, anything on the mental
00:58:21
health front or the neurode divergent
00:58:23
front has just kind of been this shadowy
00:58:26
sort of it's shameful. It's your fault.
00:58:28
It's a bit of a personal failing. It's
00:58:31
something to hide. Um, but I think now
00:58:35
the discussion and awareness that's out
00:58:37
there around ADHD is a positive thing
00:58:40
because it's it's hopefully showing
00:58:42
people that this isn't something to be
00:58:43
ashamed of. It's not something to hide.
00:58:46
It's not something that's a negative or
00:58:48
you know a flaw. Um, so that's the most
00:58:51
positive thing for me and I think in
00:58:53
Australia and New Zealand that's
00:58:55
something I've seen just working in
00:58:57
psychiatry in recent years. this shift
00:58:59
in terms of how we're thinking about
00:59:01
mental health and mental illness.
00:59:04
>> It's kind of becoming on par with
00:59:06
physical health now finally for the
00:59:08
first time. And we've still got a long
00:59:09
way to go.
00:59:10
>> But, you know, I think when we can be
00:59:11
thinking about what's going on in here
00:59:14
in an equal way to how we think about
00:59:17
what's going on out here or with our
00:59:18
heart or our gut, you know, it's just as
00:59:21
important and valid. So, that's that's
00:59:23
the big hopeful part.
00:59:24
>> Yeah. You've done so much uh fantastic
00:59:26
work in that mental health space. How
00:59:28
old are you? Can I ask? I'm
00:59:29
>> 37.
00:59:30
>> 37. Okay. So, you're like 15 years
00:59:32
younger than me, but you're um you you
00:59:34
were raised on a on a farm in sort of
00:59:36
rural New Zealand.
00:59:37
>> You What was your What was your dad
00:59:38
like? Was he much of a communicator or
00:59:40
>> uh Yeah.
00:59:41
>> Stoic?
00:59:42
>> I mean, on the outside quite like a
00:59:44
stoic classic Kiwi guy. I guess my dad's
00:59:47
a policeman. Like, so he was like the
00:59:49
local town policeman when I was growing
00:59:52
up, which was um a good thing and a bad
00:59:54
thing in some ways.
00:59:57
maybe kept me in line, which is probably
00:59:59
a good thing.
00:59:59
>> Just knows all your [ __ ] Knows
01:00:01
everything that's going on.
01:00:02
>> Get away with anything. Um, but my dad
01:00:06
actually and most of the men in my
01:00:08
family, like my grandfathers and
01:00:09
everyone, probably kind of stoic on the
01:00:12
outside, but actually, you know, he's
01:00:14
probably going to kill me for saying
01:00:15
this, but softy on the inside. Do you
01:00:17
know what I mean? Like good at
01:00:18
communicating with his kids,
01:00:19
>> talking about emotions and and that type
01:00:22
of thing in a lot of ways. So again, I
01:00:24
think I grew up with that sense of
01:00:27
>> of that being okay. Um, you know, I
01:00:30
think growing up in Wau, I mean, it was
01:00:32
a great place to grow up, but for a for
01:00:35
a young guy that was probably a bit more
01:00:37
emotionally sensitive and was into
01:00:40
school work and, you know, that was a
01:00:42
little bit of a different different
01:00:43
mold, you know, kind of the old nerd and
01:00:47
and all of that kind of thing thrown
01:00:49
around a wee bit. Um, but yeah, I think
01:00:51
I had a really good kind of model in my
01:00:54
dad and and things for that.
01:00:56
>> Oh, that's cool. Yeah, because I think a
01:00:58
lot of rural kids probably have like a
01:00:59
different sort of environment. You know,
01:01:01
like farmers are notoriously bad at
01:01:03
communicating.
01:01:03
>> 100%.
01:01:04
>> It's a stereotype that
01:01:06
>> Yeah. And I mean I think even now it's
01:01:08
you know wherever you live in in New
01:01:10
Zealand but also even Australia that
01:01:13
sense of especially that slightly older
01:01:15
generation you know my parents'
01:01:16
generation talking about like touchy
01:01:19
feelies and emotions and depression and
01:01:21
anxiety and oh I can't focus or it's
01:01:24
hard to remember stuff at school you
01:01:26
know that that would have been taken in
01:01:28
a very different way um you know even 10
01:01:31
20 years ago. So yeah, it's um you know,
01:01:35
I've really loved this part of my career
01:01:38
as well as time's gone on in terms of
01:01:40
just being able to be a bit of a voice
01:01:43
>> for that. You know, you can grow up on a
01:01:46
farm or you can enjoy going to the gym
01:01:48
or you can, you know, do bodybuilding if
01:01:52
you want to, but that doesn't mean that
01:01:53
you then can't also kind of be emotive
01:01:56
or talk about mental health or how
01:01:58
you're feeling or prioritize other areas
01:02:00
as well. So yeah, I think that's
01:02:02
shifting. But yeah.
01:02:03
>> Oh no, no, it is. It is. And it can't
01:02:05
happen fast enough. God, we'll have to
01:02:07
get you back um another day for another
01:02:09
conversation all about that because as I
01:02:10
alluded to before, you've done so much
01:02:12
work in that mental health space.
01:02:13
>> Yeah. No, I'd love that. But yeah,
01:02:15
definitely we will.
01:02:16
>> How often do you get back? As
01:02:18
infrequently as possible?
01:02:20
>> No, probably far too much. My parents
01:02:22
are like stay over that.
01:02:24
>> No, probably at least, you know, three
01:02:27
three times a year. Three or four times
01:02:28
a year. Cool.
01:02:29
>> I mean, it's such a quick flight from
01:02:31
Sydney now, which is which is great, but
01:02:33
it's sort of it's longer to drive down
01:02:35
to Rooua than it is to fly from like
01:02:38
Oakland to Sydney.
01:02:39
>> Yeah. You took your partner to Rooua.
01:02:41
>> Yeah, we went to Rooua. We saw the old
01:02:43
mudpools and so that was a blast from
01:02:47
the past cuz Yeah. I mean, that was Ro
01:02:49
Vegas was the the Kennedy family holiday
01:02:52
destination when I was a kid. So, yeah.
01:02:55
I mean, I will say I think for for my
01:02:57
partner and I, the luge the luge was
01:02:59
quite slightly less high and steep and
01:03:03
fast than I remember it as a kid.
01:03:05
>> Do they still make you do the slow lane
01:03:07
for the first trip down? They do.
01:03:08
>> They do. Oh, come on.
01:03:10
>> And test the brakes, you know, make sure
01:03:12
you're not slamming it into the
01:03:13
concrete.
01:03:14
>> Um, but no, it was great. I love I love
01:03:17
coming back and New Zealand will
01:03:19
obviously always be my home and and it's
01:03:21
such a special place, so coming back to
01:03:23
see my family, but Also just to be
01:03:26
around, you know, some Kiwis and hear
01:03:28
some New Zealand accents. It's nice as
01:03:31
well.
01:03:31
>> Oh, if you want to hear some New Zealand
01:03:32
accents, just go to Bondi every once in
01:03:34
a while. You can find them
01:03:35
>> or the Gold Coast possibly. There's
01:03:37
there's a lot of Kiwi accents around
01:03:39
there.
01:03:40
>> Um, a couple more on ADHD. Uh, how can
01:03:44
ADHD affect relationships, careers, and
01:03:46
self-esteem?
01:03:48
>> It can affect all of those things in
01:03:52
really complex multiple ways. really
01:03:54
>> mostly negative or
01:03:55
>> often positive, you know. I mean, I
01:03:57
think in terms of relationships and
01:03:59
work, people with ADHD,
01:04:01
oh god, I mean, there's there's any
01:04:03
number of positives, but they can be
01:04:05
incredibly creative and active,
01:04:07
motivated, you know, multi-talented,
01:04:10
jumping into different things. Um, you
01:04:13
know, but that can be a bit of a
01:04:14
double-edged sword sometimes as well.
01:04:16
People can struggle to
01:04:18
>> maybe, for example, remember something
01:04:19
their partner has told them. Often
01:04:21
people tell me that whole we talked
01:04:23
about this on Monday or I told you this
01:04:26
was coming up on Saturday and that can
01:04:28
actually cause a lot of friction in
01:04:30
relationships. Um you know so something
01:04:32
like that might impact a relationship
01:04:34
negatively. Something else that people
01:04:36
might have heard about as well is what
01:04:38
we call RSD or rejection sensitive
01:04:41
dysphoria. It's a bit of a mouthful but
01:04:43
that is very common with ADHD. And what
01:04:46
that is is actually being incredibly
01:04:48
sensitive and hypervigilant to any
01:04:50
rejection from others. And so people
01:04:53
with ADHD often feel like they might
01:04:55
monitor or scan their partner or their
01:04:58
friends or their family for any tiny
01:05:01
little hint of rejection or abandonment
01:05:04
or you're not happy with me. I'm not
01:05:06
pleasing you.
01:05:08
>> And that can cause an incredibly kind of
01:05:11
strong emotional reaction in people with
01:05:13
ADHD. So that can also come into play
01:05:16
with relationships as well if we're kind
01:05:18
of really reading and feeling potential
01:05:21
signs and signals a lot. You know, it
01:05:23
might just be that our partner's had a
01:05:24
bad day at work and they're actually
01:05:26
exhausted. But for us, them slumping
01:05:28
down on the couch,
01:05:29
>> it might feel like they've done
01:05:32
something wrong or they're not happy in
01:05:33
the relationship anymore, they're going
01:05:35
to leave me,
01:05:36
>> you know. So there are so many various
01:05:38
ways ADHD can impact our work and
01:05:40
relationships.
01:05:42
>> And self-esteem is a big one, too. You
01:05:43
know, I think especially if people grow
01:05:45
up as kids feeling like they just
01:05:47
couldn't keep up in class or something
01:05:48
was different compared to their friends
01:05:50
and the other kids in class,
01:05:52
>> usually what we do as kids,
01:05:54
unfortunately, is we just flip that back
01:05:56
in on ourselves and we think, well, that
01:05:58
must be because I'm not smart enough or
01:06:00
I'm different or I'm weird. So, I hear
01:06:03
that a lot from people with autism and
01:06:06
ADHD diagnoses is a sense of kind of
01:06:08
really directing that blame and shame
01:06:11
inward and that can really kind of hit
01:06:13
self-esteem even later on as adults.
01:06:17
>> Do you think there are hidden strengths
01:06:18
in ADHD that we don't talk about often
01:06:20
enough?
01:06:21
>> Yeah, I I really really do.
01:06:23
>> You probably addressed some of them just
01:06:24
before actually.
01:06:25
>> Definitely. You know, I think again
01:06:27
shifting away from thinking about autism
01:06:29
and ADHD and neurode divergence as being
01:06:32
this blanket negative or a defect or a
01:06:35
failing. That's where we need to shift
01:06:37
away from. You know, a lot of people
01:06:39
with ADHD are incredibly creative.
01:06:43
They're incredibly successful. You know,
01:06:45
someone who has a touch of hyperactivity
01:06:48
might be extremely kind of active and
01:06:51
motivated within their career or their
01:06:53
personal pursuits or sport.
01:06:56
Someone who has inattentive features of
01:06:58
ADHD might struggle with distractability
01:07:00
and focus at times, but they also might
01:07:02
be really good at switching between
01:07:04
different tasks or have periods where
01:07:06
they hyperfocus and they can actually
01:07:08
just zone into doing something with
01:07:10
incredible intensity.
01:07:12
>> So, there are some definite ways that
01:07:14
ADHD can be, you know, quote unquote, to
01:07:17
use the cheesy term, a bit of a
01:07:18
superpower, and it's it's not a
01:07:20
negative. Um,
01:07:22
>> yeah, that's what people say. I've got
01:07:24
ADHD. It's my superpower, is it?
01:07:26
>> Yeah, I absolutely think it can be, you
01:07:28
know, and I think it's so important,
01:07:30
especially for our kids, that we we make
01:07:32
sure to push the fact that ADHD isn't
01:07:36
just a negative thing. It It can have a
01:07:38
lot of kind of superpowery, really
01:07:40
fantastic things about it sometimes as
01:07:42
well.
01:07:43
>> What would you change tomorrow about the
01:07:45
way our health system approaches ADHD if
01:07:47
you were in charge?
01:07:48
>> Yeah, that's a big one. Um, I mean, I
01:07:51
think for me it would be increasing
01:07:54
access to ADHD assessment and treatment
01:07:58
with sort of more assistance for people
01:08:01
on the funding side. You know, I think
01:08:03
it's one thing to say, "Oh, well, we
01:08:05
should have ADHD assessments in the
01:08:07
public system," but obviously the public
01:08:09
system is also, especially with
01:08:11
psychiatry right now, it's really also
01:08:13
supporting a lot of people struggling
01:08:15
with psychosis and with substance and
01:08:18
addiction issues, with depression. Um,
01:08:21
so it's a really complex issue, but I
01:08:23
think for me it would be coming round to
01:08:26
helping people access ADHD assessments
01:08:28
and treatment. And what that might look
01:08:30
like is more funding to give people
01:08:33
rebates or money back in terms of if
01:08:36
they need to see a private psychiatrist,
01:08:38
there would be some more financial
01:08:40
support around that for people because
01:08:42
what we don't want, as we said before,
01:08:44
is for this to become a a privileged
01:08:47
pathway in psychiatry and medicine where
01:08:50
only the people who can afford to pay
01:08:52
significant amounts for support get that
01:08:55
support. So
01:08:56
>> I think for for me it would be that
01:08:57
funding side but possibly if any
01:08:59
politicians heard that they would um you
01:09:01
know roll their eyes and become a naive
01:09:04
ranting doctor just asking for more
01:09:05
money. Um but no that access side would
01:09:08
be for me the big one. Yeah.
01:09:10
>> Do you get a lot of people thanking you?
01:09:12
Like what what sort of reaction do you
01:09:13
get when you diagnose someone? Like it
01:09:15
must be life-changing for a lot of
01:09:17
people.
01:09:17
>> Yeah, it really is. you know, it's um
01:09:20
and and that's the most rewarding part
01:09:22
of my job and why I love what I do. It's
01:09:25
meeting people at one point in their
01:09:27
life where they're really really
01:09:28
struggling and and really, you know,
01:09:30
feeling like they're not managing and
01:09:32
then I'm definitely not going to take
01:09:33
all the credit for it because it's a lot
01:09:35
of things usually, but then meeting them
01:09:37
6 months or a year down the track and
01:09:40
hearing that they have finished the
01:09:42
degree that they were really struggling
01:09:44
to stay afloat with or they've finally
01:09:46
started that business that they wanted
01:09:48
to for so long or their relationships
01:09:50
are better, their general health is
01:09:51
better. You know, that's really amazing.
01:09:53
Um, I went to sort of like a a charity
01:09:56
event over in Sydney recently and um, I
01:10:00
just happened to sort of meet a patient
01:10:02
there. Someone that I'd seen and
01:10:04
assessed and started on a treatment plan
01:10:06
for ADHD was there and he came up to me
01:10:09
and sort of said, "Oh, I hope this isn't
01:10:10
awkward in terms of it's a bit weird.
01:10:12
You're not supposed to hug your
01:10:13
psychiatrist or know them in person."
01:10:16
Um, but no, he just sort of said, "I
01:10:18
just want to thank you so much in terms
01:10:20
of like it's it's changed my life and
01:10:23
>> work and my relationship and even, you
01:10:26
know, my health, my physical health is
01:10:28
so much better. So, yeah, it's just
01:10:31
absolutely lovely to to kind of help
01:10:34
support people and whether my part's
01:10:36
just 1% of that or it's a bigger chunk
01:10:38
of that, it's it's, you know, just
01:10:40
lovely to be a part of that."
01:10:42
If someone's listening to this or
01:10:43
watching this now and they're they're
01:10:45
feeling a certain way, like um yeah,
01:10:47
maybe they're they're feeling emotional
01:10:48
because it feels like what you're
01:10:51
talking about is describing them or
01:10:54
maybe it feels like a a weight off their
01:10:55
shoulders because they finally got some
01:10:57
sort of clarity. Like what would your
01:10:59
message be to those people who are ADHD
01:11:01
curious?
01:11:02
>> Yeah, I mean I think letting yourself
01:11:04
just feel that emotion is the main one.
01:11:06
You know, that'll make me sound like a
01:11:07
bit of a, you know, a a woohoo kind of
01:11:12
very
01:11:13
>> You go to Byron Bay.
01:11:14
>> I was just gonna say some crystals. Go
01:11:16
to Byron Bay.
01:11:17
>> I promise I'm not shaking crystals um to
01:11:19
anyone listening to this, but I just
01:11:21
letting yourself feel that and know that
01:11:23
it's okay to feel like this resonates
01:11:26
with you and and to feel that, holy
01:11:28
[ __ ] this might be me or this is me,
01:11:31
but this feels really validating to hear
01:11:34
this.
01:11:35
It's just leaning into that, I think,
01:11:37
you know, and and I guess what I would
01:11:39
want to say to people just in general
01:11:41
when we're thinking about mental health
01:11:42
and mental health conditions or
01:11:44
diagnosis,
01:11:45
>> it's it's to just know that that's just
01:11:47
as valid as anything else in medicine or
01:11:50
health, you know, like if if we wouldn't
01:11:52
shy away from booking an appointment to
01:11:54
see our GP hopefully to talk about blood
01:11:57
on the toilet bowl or a missed heartbeat
01:12:00
or a sore gut, you know, that's been
01:12:03
there for a
01:12:05
we should not be thinking or feeling any
01:12:07
differently about seeing a doctor or
01:12:09
seeking out some professional support if
01:12:12
we're worried about our mental health or
01:12:14
if we're hearing something about a
01:12:16
symptom and thinking, "Oh [ __ ] this
01:12:17
might be me." So, I just want those
01:12:20
people listening or anyone listening to
01:12:22
know that if it's to do with mental
01:12:24
health and what's going on inside your
01:12:26
skull, that is just as valid to be
01:12:28
feeling and checking out and getting
01:12:30
support for as anything else. So,
01:12:32
>> just lean into that. you um you said
01:12:34
earlier on um that the first step is to
01:12:36
go and see your GP for a chat about it.
01:12:38
Um is there anything people can do
01:12:40
before then? Like are there any like
01:12:41
books that you swear by or like online
01:12:44
resources or anything?
01:12:45
>> Yeah, I mean there's some really really
01:12:46
good ones. There's um you know the ADHD
01:12:49
Foundation in Australia has really good
01:12:53
information and obviously it's
01:12:54
Australianbased but Australia and New
01:12:57
Zealand very very closely linked and
01:12:59
very similar. So that's got a lot of
01:13:00
great resources for people. Um,
01:13:04
you know, there are some really great
01:13:05
books as well. You know, I think there's
01:13:07
the, you know, it all makes sense now is
01:13:10
is a book that is really helpful and
01:13:12
validating for a lot of people as well.
01:13:14
Um, you know, so I think just not being
01:13:17
afraid to kind of go online and have a
01:13:18
bit of a look and a research as well.
01:13:21
>> Um, I will say keep an open mind and and
01:13:23
stay skeptical perhaps if you're on
01:13:26
Instagram and Tik Tok. There's a lot of
01:13:29
really great information on there about
01:13:31
health and mental health and ADHD, but
01:13:33
there's also a lot of um kind of
01:13:36
misinformation and and you know, rubbish
01:13:39
for want of a better word out there as
01:13:41
well. So, I think, you know, if you're
01:13:43
online and you're watching Tik Toks or
01:13:46
you're following someone who, you know,
01:13:48
is talking about their experience with
01:13:50
ADHD, it's with absolute all respect
01:13:53
that I say to people sharing content,
01:13:55
you know, but it it's just keep an open
01:13:57
mind in terms of well, ask your doctor
01:14:00
um about those things you hear as well.
01:14:03
>> Well, Dr. Karen Kennedy, this has been
01:14:05
really insightful. It's not my usual
01:14:07
sort of episode. It's been um like a
01:14:09
like an FAQ, I guess,
01:14:11
>> quick for ADHD.
01:14:12
>> ADHD. But um I've got I I've learned a
01:14:15
lot. I've got no doubt a lot of people
01:14:17
listening to this or watching this will
01:14:18
get a lot out of it as well.
01:14:19
>> No, I hope so. And and no, thank you so
01:14:21
much for having me, Dom. Like I say,
01:14:22
it's it's just very very humbling for me
01:14:25
to be here actually. You know, listen to
01:14:27
you on the radio for a long time and
01:14:29
then, you know, other people you've had,
01:14:31
you know, Nigel Latter and and things,
01:14:34
you know, rested soul. you know, it's
01:14:37
just really really humbling to be here
01:14:38
and
01:14:39
>> to get this info out there. So, thank
01:14:40
you for having me.
01:14:42
>> When you when you're back for your next
01:14:43
um family holiday in uh Pokawi, come
01:14:46
back and we'll um we'll chat about um
01:14:47
mental health.
01:14:48
>> No, we will. Yeah, I'll get off the
01:14:50
potato farm for a bit and we'll um I'll
01:14:52
stop pulling potatoes. We'll come have a
01:14:55
chat about general mental health.
01:14:56
>> Do they make you work?
01:14:59
>> I was going to say, show me your nails.
01:15:01
>> Those nails haven't seen soil in years.
01:15:03
>> I was going to say they're very Sydney
01:15:04
nails. I'm sorry to say so my family
01:15:06
will rubbish me for that but no I would
01:15:08
absolutely love to come back and like
01:15:10
you say there's um even just general
01:15:11
mental health there's so much we could
01:15:13
talk about but thank you so much for
01:15:14
having me
01:15:15
>> yeah no way you're going on the farm
01:15:16
after this you're going to the gym and
01:15:17
it's curls today isn't it again
01:15:19
>> some more scrambled eggs and then some
01:15:21
curls
01:15:22
>> Dr. Kieran Kennedy, the hot dog. Thank
01:15:25
you for coming on the podcast, mate.
01:15:26
Really appreciate it. It's been great.
01:15:27
>> Thank you, mate. Thanks so much.