00:00:00
been okay for Dr Ben Dr Ben O'Keefe
00:00:02
g'day hey Dom how you doing I'm doing
00:00:04
great mate I'm doing so good to have you
00:00:06
over I really appreciate this I'm really
00:00:08
looking forward to chatting with you
00:00:09
yeah man I'll be happy to have you have
00:00:11
a good Yarn yeah first of all um one
00:00:13
thing that I I never realized about you
00:00:15
and I suppose actually most people don't
00:00:17
the referees kind of um kind of kind of
00:00:19
an invisible player on the field you
00:00:21
know you have such an important part
00:00:22
that and you do a good job and people
00:00:24
either love you or they loathe you and
00:00:27
um then you just get on with you get on
00:00:29
with your day
00:00:30
um but you're like an eye an eye doctor
00:00:33
yeah yeah
00:00:35
I mean because everyone makes Specsavers
00:00:38
jokes and there's Specsavers on a lot of
00:00:40
the shirts that you're ripping but you
00:00:42
are actually an eye doctor when the
00:00:43
specsaver sponsorship came through I
00:00:45
thought like this is ironic and I think
00:00:47
you know actually it's really good for
00:00:48
them to be able to do that for referees
00:00:49
because everyone you know you talk about
00:00:51
loving and Loathing like there's a lot
00:00:52
of loathing and there's a lot of you
00:00:53
know eye test sort of questions coming
00:00:55
at us but yeah I can actually test those
00:00:57
people's vision for them and um I often
00:00:59
have that joke people yell at you know
00:01:01
that I need to sort of get my vision
00:01:02
checked as well do the same thing yeah
00:01:04
um yeah the jokes just sort of write
00:01:06
themselves really don't they they do so
00:01:08
you're a bit of a better ramp all that
00:01:10
kind of stuff and especially when you're
00:01:11
wearing Specsavers the whole time in the
00:01:13
Big Green you know so it's great it's
00:01:14
great sponsorship for them and you know
00:01:16
they're good sponsors for us yeah so
00:01:17
what is what is your job exactly so
00:01:20
you're um you're a qualified doctor and
00:01:22
then did you specialize in
00:01:24
Optical stuff yeah so about
00:01:27
um I mean it must be about 10 years ago
00:01:29
so I you know I went to went to med
00:01:31
school after you know after after school
00:01:32
went to University got through into med
00:01:34
school you do six years and then after
00:01:36
that you do postgraduate you know two
00:01:38
years trying to do thing and then and
00:01:40
for me I realized really quickly that I
00:01:41
didn't really like actual medicine I
00:01:43
liked surgery I like the fixing things
00:01:44
so in the two years they tell you
00:01:46
exactly what you have to do so you do a
00:01:48
bit of general medicine
00:01:49
um you'll do a bit of general practice
00:01:50
you do a little bit of surgery gin Surge
00:01:52
and then you can start sort of
00:01:54
sub-specializing into fields that you
00:01:55
want to do afterwards because
00:01:57
at Mid School you learn everything
00:01:58
theoretically but you actually don't
00:02:00
know the job until you actually get into
00:02:01
the job right so when you're working in
00:02:03
the hospital when you're on the wards
00:02:04
when you're doing the late nights when
00:02:05
you're on call with three in the morning
00:02:06
you have emergency calls you're in
00:02:08
theater you're operating so all of that
00:02:10
kind of stuff you see the job so I I
00:02:12
realized earlier that I like I liked
00:02:14
being really good at something and being
00:02:16
able to fix something so if you came in
00:02:18
with a damaged tendon or a broken bone
00:02:20
we fixed it and then we saw you next
00:02:22
week and if you had another issue well I
00:02:24
would see would send you to another
00:02:25
specialist and that's what I liked so I
00:02:27
started moving down that pathway of
00:02:30
um you know surgery general surgery did
00:02:33
a bit of Orthopedics then did Plastics I
00:02:34
did plastic surgery for
00:02:36
like a year as a house officer and a
00:02:39
registrar so you have these levels so
00:02:40
you're like you know a junior doctor and
00:02:42
then a registrar and then you're a
00:02:43
consultant
00:02:44
so I did plastics for a long time but
00:02:45
then I I figured that I I really liked
00:02:48
well there's there was one side of like
00:02:49
the surgical Specialties is that you
00:02:51
know the the Consultants are just so so
00:02:52
busy
00:02:53
and so they're always coming in on court
00:02:55
I remember one one morning
00:02:57
um 8 A.M we did our Ward round and the
00:02:58
Plastics award and the surgeon who was
00:03:02
about he was probably about 65 in you
00:03:03
know so he's a really well respected and
00:03:06
amazing surgeon was came into his clinic
00:03:08
but he'd been up all night because he'd
00:03:09
been a big car accident so he's
00:03:10
operating all night and I remember
00:03:12
seeing that he was just he was shattered
00:03:13
and you know he was having to go into a
00:03:15
clinic and then operate again that
00:03:16
afternoon and while I love that like I
00:03:19
wanted to do that when I was younger I
00:03:20
think I was getting to an age or I
00:03:21
wanted you know you decided to think
00:03:22
about you know how you are getting older
00:03:24
and what you want to do for your life
00:03:26
and stuff so
00:03:27
I I started thinking I love these
00:03:29
Specialties and I sort of came across
00:03:31
Ophthalmology which is which is eye
00:03:32
medicine and realized that it's the best
00:03:34
of both worlds you do a bit of medicine
00:03:36
you some amazing surgeries you know like
00:03:38
being able to do a cataract operation
00:03:40
you can fix someone's eyesight and they
00:03:41
can you know see again you know pretty
00:03:43
well straight after
00:03:45
um and you know people take their vision
00:03:46
for granted and and generally
00:03:48
um you know as a registrar you are
00:03:50
really really busy
00:03:52
um and you know a lot of things you can
00:03:53
sort of manage you know as a consultant
00:03:55
you're not having to come in probably as
00:03:56
much as as those big surgical Plastics
00:03:58
bosses and the orthopedic bosses so um
00:04:01
yeah I sort of just fell into that
00:04:02
because you in six years of med school
00:04:03
you only do about one week of
00:04:04
Ophthalmology and I've been on the other
00:04:06
side as a registrar where I have those
00:04:08
students with me for the week and I feel
00:04:10
really bad because you're on the thing
00:04:11
about Ophthalmology is that you uh
00:04:13
working on a microscope and looking into
00:04:15
someone's eye and so you've got a poor
00:04:17
student here that you're trying to teach
00:04:18
but they can't see what you're doing
00:04:22
or you're operating and say like hold
00:04:24
this back hold that look at that this is
00:04:26
this I'm basically trying to tell them
00:04:28
something that you know they're having
00:04:30
to try and imagine can you not project
00:04:31
it onto a big screen or you can like
00:04:33
these different there's obviously
00:04:34
technology like that but um you know
00:04:36
when we're in our small little clinic in
00:04:37
the emergency department we can't do
00:04:39
that so I always feel sorry for them
00:04:40
always like look if you don't if you
00:04:41
need to go you need to go to the library
00:04:42
do some extra work you can go and you
00:04:44
know because I felt like that's what I
00:04:45
was like when I was a student right and
00:04:47
that's what you did so it was in that
00:04:48
one week so I didn't really know until I
00:04:50
started studying and I did a little
00:04:52
diploma in it to see like yeah I like
00:04:53
this Theory let's actually get a job and
00:04:56
so I worked full-time as a house officer
00:04:58
and a registry on Ophthalmology and did
00:05:00
that for a few years and have still been
00:05:02
doing that since
00:05:03
um I then came to a Crossroads and did
00:05:06
my Rugby and
00:05:07
um sort of went the other direction for
00:05:08
a while yeah you must be super smart is
00:05:10
that med school is ridiculously
00:05:12
difficult isn't it don't they like Slash
00:05:14
from year one to year two it's a big
00:05:16
class size and a half yeah there's a big
00:05:18
cat um I'm definitely not super smart
00:05:20
like I I feel like I've got a good work
00:05:22
eth I think that's what gets me through
00:05:23
everything you know um so you know work
00:05:25
my butt off the first year put all my
00:05:27
eggs into a basket went to the
00:05:29
non-drinking hall you know all that kind
00:05:31
of stuff and I love a good drink and so
00:05:33
that was really hard but it all worked
00:05:34
in my favor right so
00:05:36
um it's it's I think after like six so I
00:05:40
think out of maybe 3 000 people that go
00:05:42
into Health Sciences you know 250 get
00:05:45
into medicine 200 Industry physio B
00:05:48
midsize all that kind of stuff so it is
00:05:51
competitive
00:05:52
um and there's a bit of a cull after six
00:05:54
months you know like the chemistry paper
00:05:55
and then you know you've got the other
00:05:56
one um at the end of the year like all
00:05:58
your other papers that you have to do so
00:05:59
like thinking back then as well you know
00:06:01
you're so young and you have to make
00:06:02
that decision
00:06:03
um yeah straight out of school yeah
00:06:04
straight out of school you know like
00:06:05
there's obviously different systems
00:06:06
overseas when they have America they you
00:06:08
know you'll have to get into medicine
00:06:08
postgraduate I feel like that's quite
00:06:10
good because you actually grow up a
00:06:11
little bit and decide you know what you
00:06:13
want to do and you sort of get your life
00:06:14
sort of sorted rather than just you know
00:06:16
University as an 18 year old so
00:06:18
um yeah it's super hard super
00:06:20
competitive but um you know really you
00:06:22
know things you get to do and
00:06:24
um you know the what you get to I guess
00:06:26
contribute to it's you know society and
00:06:27
everything like it's got a lot of
00:06:28
meaning and that's what I've always
00:06:29
loved about it and and fortunately for
00:06:31
me because that's always been my career
00:06:34
when I've done this rugby it's I've been
00:06:36
able to keep the rugby as a passion and
00:06:37
I think that's helped as well yeah that
00:06:39
was I suppose going to be my next uh
00:06:40
question like how how do you how do you
00:06:42
balance both
00:06:43
um you know being a professional rugby
00:06:44
like when I first messaged you it was
00:06:46
after the um Super Rugby final Chiefs
00:06:48
Crusaders um which you ruined Apparently
00:06:50
one of the million messages I saw your
00:06:52
message I was like oh this is a nice one
00:06:53
I'm gonna I'm gonna read this message
00:06:56
um we'll get into that but I I messaged
00:06:58
you like the week after that and you
00:06:59
were over in I think South Africa or
00:07:01
somewhere you can't be doing a lot of
00:07:03
medicine these days
00:07:04
medicines that are taking a backbend
00:07:06
yeah it was about so I've been
00:07:08
professional as a referee for I think
00:07:10
seven or eight years now that's pretty
00:07:12
scary it goes It goes pretty fast
00:07:14
and how I started referring I was just
00:07:16
at University I I played rugby like you
00:07:18
know a lot of kiwis I wanted to be an
00:07:19
all black like a lot of kiwis playing
00:07:21
rugby and went to University and just
00:07:23
realized that everyone was so serious
00:07:25
about becoming all back I just didn't
00:07:26
want to do that and I think you know
00:07:28
people's skills started catching up to
00:07:29
my skill which wasn't great anyway
00:07:31
um so my dad refereed when I was younger
00:07:33
and he said look you should give
00:07:35
referring a go you know and if it's just
00:07:37
to stay in the game that's great but
00:07:39
it's also something that's going to
00:07:40
balance your books balance your studying
00:07:42
it's going to get you out of the out of
00:07:43
the Halls out of the hostels out of the
00:07:45
lecture theaters and you know you're
00:07:47
gonna love it and so I really just did
00:07:49
it as a weekend thing too
00:07:50
18 19 20. so I was not I was 19. you
00:07:54
know my first game I remember turning up
00:07:56
I didn't have I didn't I had a whistle
00:07:58
but I didn't have a watch I had to buy
00:07:59
the coach's watch and it was like it was
00:08:00
a game that was directly across from me
00:08:02
where I was living I was sort of looking
00:08:04
over at this field being like why don't
00:08:05
they have a referee and then I opened my
00:08:07
laptop because back then I think we had
00:08:09
like those like Sony Ericsson phones you
00:08:11
know you didn't get emails on them you
00:08:12
know they actually emailed me on Sunday
00:08:14
allows me to referee that game so I
00:08:15
don't really get that until about half
00:08:16
an hour before so I quickly ran over
00:08:18
there and and did my very first game and
00:08:20
yeah so it was just an outlet for me for
00:08:22
so long and like players you you referee
00:08:25
Club rugby and then they think you do a
00:08:27
good job so you start referring senior
00:08:30
Club rugby in your referee Regional and
00:08:32
you start referring like South Island
00:08:33
and then you know you get to a point
00:08:35
where they suit you for the Heartland
00:08:37
competition which is sort of the
00:08:38
regional competition in NBC super and
00:08:40
international so I got to a point where
00:08:42
I was doing this all through my medicine
00:08:45
um did it as I was working as a doctor
00:08:46
as well so you know I'd finish my my
00:08:48
clinics on a Friday a referee Club rugby
00:08:50
on a Saturday and it was easy because
00:08:51
that's that's where I lived but then it
00:08:53
got to a point where I was doing NPC and
00:08:54
Super Rugby
00:08:55
where again it was fine
00:08:58
um because I finished my clinics on a
00:08:59
Friday if I was on call that weekend I'd
00:09:01
have to say I'm unavailable for rugby
00:09:03
but then I'd fly to my game do my game
00:09:06
Saturday fly back Sunday back to work
00:09:07
Monday and so this was like my life for
00:09:09
a few years where Monday to Friday
00:09:11
pretty demanding job in medicine but was
00:09:14
my outlook for rugby and then Friday to
00:09:16
Saturday Sunday I'd be traveling for
00:09:17
rugby which was almost like I kept doing
00:09:20
that and then the more games I did in
00:09:22
Super Rugby I started going to Australia
00:09:24
and I started getting games every
00:09:26
weekend and then you know the demand of
00:09:28
the game is you've got to do a lot of
00:09:29
preparation so while I'd prepare for my
00:09:32
games before my clinics after my clinics
00:09:35
I'd have to train like midnight some
00:09:36
nights you know because that was the
00:09:37
only time that I finished because I
00:09:38
needed to be ready for this job on the
00:09:40
weekend I got to a point where I
00:09:42
remember this one Clinic that I was
00:09:43
doing and I kept looking at the time
00:09:46
because I had to fly out at 7pm that's
00:09:49
why at 7 pm normally you know you
00:09:51
couldn't should finish at five yeah and
00:09:52
you sort of manage it on a Friday so
00:09:54
that it should finish by the end but if
00:09:55
something comes in
00:09:56
you can't leave um you know someone that
00:09:59
someone starts on qualify but you can't
00:10:01
just go clock off five if you're done
00:10:02
yeah
00:10:03
from the patient's perspective
00:10:06
I've checked one eye yeah but that's the
00:10:09
thing and that this was this I was in a
00:10:11
hurry and I started realizing that and
00:10:13
and that was the problem in this
00:10:14
situation I was looking at Time stuff
00:10:16
started building up
00:10:17
um I got to five o'clock it got to six
00:10:19
o'clock I got to seven I realized that
00:10:21
you know I'd missed the flight but I
00:10:23
don't think I in in the moment like I
00:10:25
think I was I was still very good at
00:10:26
what I was doing at that moment but I
00:10:27
was
00:10:28
um I was vulnerable I was fragile about
00:10:31
like being rushed and and I remember
00:10:32
after that weekend I got I finally
00:10:35
booked my flight got to Auckland did my
00:10:36
game came back Sunday and then on a
00:10:37
Monday like um during a break I just
00:10:39
like this is this is tough now but
00:10:42
fortunately it was the same time a few
00:10:44
weeks later New Zealand Rugby sort of
00:10:46
offered me this full-time contract and I
00:10:48
had I had a mentor of mine who was
00:10:50
another doctor Jonathan white is a
00:10:51
cardiologist up here in Auckland
00:10:52
Interventional cardiologist incredible
00:10:54
incredible human being and he'd never
00:10:57
actually seen me referee but he'd you
00:10:59
know took me under his wing and he was
00:11:00
like he showed that there could be a
00:11:02
doctor that could also referee rugby in
00:11:04
it to a high level he referred to Super
00:11:05
Rugby but he when he got to the same
00:11:08
point that I got to he chose to do
00:11:09
medicine and so he gave up on Rugby and
00:11:11
he would have he would have refreed many
00:11:12
World Cups he would have been our best
00:11:14
of referee for a long time so talking
00:11:16
with him and and seeing him do that I
00:11:19
actually decided to go the other way and
00:11:21
I thought look I'm going to sign this
00:11:22
contract for a year I'm going to do
00:11:24
rugby see how long it goes for and
00:11:26
because I'll always have a regret if I
00:11:28
don't and and all the Consultants that I
00:11:30
talk to in medicine they said look
00:11:31
medicine's going to be here give it give
00:11:33
it a go and it's not not a bad career to
00:11:35
fall back on oh no it works it works out
00:11:37
super well and and that's why I like I
00:11:40
had to give it a go give it and I
00:11:42
remember being so nervous talking to my
00:11:43
heated apartment around it I I probably
00:11:45
walked past her door for about two weeks
00:11:48
being like look I'm gonna I want to try
00:11:50
and do this I want to know I've got this
00:11:51
contract what do you think I did I
00:11:52
finally built up the courage to walk in
00:11:53
sit down and she was super supportive of
00:11:56
everything she said the same things like
00:11:58
look we'll be here at the end we can we
00:12:01
can do we can support you as you're
00:12:03
going through we'll make it work we
00:12:04
actually need extra doctors anyway
00:12:06
and so I think without having probably
00:12:08
her being so supportive as well I
00:12:10
wouldn't be here I am now so so back to
00:12:11
your original question like like how
00:12:13
much do I do
00:12:14
um
00:12:15
it's great I'm so it's so flexible so I
00:12:19
would probably work maybe maybe one to
00:12:20
two days a week when I'm in New Zealand
00:12:22
but the benefit is is that I'm not
00:12:24
actually I don't have a clinic under Dr
00:12:25
O'Keefe you know it's not under my under
00:12:27
my name so that if I wasn't in the air
00:12:28
all those patients would just be lost or
00:12:30
they wouldn't be able to be lost to
00:12:31
follow what I do is that when I'm
00:12:33
available and free I actually I will
00:12:35
I'll go in and instead of there being
00:12:36
two eye doctors working and the clinic
00:12:38
that goes from nine to five which is
00:12:39
super super busy I think there's a thing
00:12:41
in medicine like everyone thinks that
00:12:42
the eye doctors upstairs they just
00:12:44
sitting there drink coffee but I'm
00:12:45
telling you right now like it is super
00:12:46
super busy which is which is cool
00:12:49
um so instead of the two doctors they
00:12:50
have three so out of maybe the 40
00:12:52
patients that the the two of the doctors
00:12:54
have to see in that day and plus all the
00:12:56
issues that come on board they'll all
00:12:58
see 10 or 15 of them so it helps
00:13:00
everyone it keeps me engaged in the game
00:13:02
and it also means that when I when I
00:13:05
need to leave so like last week yeah
00:13:06
when you're contacting me I was in South
00:13:07
Africa and I was in France I can just go
00:13:10
and and I don't have clinics that I need
00:13:12
to rearrange and when I come back home
00:13:14
um I can get back into it so during the
00:13:16
year during the rugby season you know
00:13:17
one to two days a week
00:13:18
um and then between probably November
00:13:20
and January it's it's almost almost full
00:13:22
time like four or five days a week and
00:13:24
you know I train some of the other
00:13:25
doctors and I learned from them and
00:13:28
um you know it's a really really cool
00:13:29
time of year because I can sort of get
00:13:30
back into what I really love doing oh
00:13:33
good stuff
00:13:34
um you mentioned before that first
00:13:36
contract from the New Zealand Rugby
00:13:38
Union like a one-year contract so you
00:13:40
you so you grind away for years and
00:13:42
years doing the Heartland staff and
00:13:43
before that club stuff and so so that
00:13:47
stuff you like in the early days of your
00:13:49
riffing
00:13:50
um you were just doing it with the
00:13:51
knowledge that you had from being a
00:13:53
former player yourself so I'm guessing
00:13:54
you don't know the intricacies of the
00:13:57
law no and I would say like being a
00:13:59
former player I wouldn't even cast
00:14:00
myself as a former player I knew I knew
00:14:02
how to catch a ball and pass it right
00:14:03
and I run into a gap but I wasn't back
00:14:06
you know I was this I was sort of this
00:14:07
height when I was younger and I never
00:14:08
went into the forge I'm kind of gutted I
00:14:09
never went into Fords so I never hit a
00:14:11
rock I was never in a scrum so my sort
00:14:14
of game knowledge I had to really learn
00:14:15
quickly you know and that's why you get
00:14:17
a lot of ex-players who become like each
00:14:18
professional players who become referees
00:14:20
and they immediately go to the top level
00:14:22
because they have that game
00:14:23
understanding so I guess I've come
00:14:26
through a traditional referring pathway
00:14:27
where you just have to learn the
00:14:29
technicalities and you know you learn
00:14:31
that at a low age and you hope that you
00:14:33
do it all at a young age so when you are
00:14:35
doing the TV games like you've learned
00:14:37
that you made all new mistakes and so
00:14:39
you don't have those sort of those train
00:14:40
smashes on the big stage you sort of do
00:14:42
it at Club rugby and that's what I
00:14:43
always I try and tell young refreezers
00:14:45
you know they're so and this is like me
00:14:46
you know you're hungry to want to keep
00:14:48
going and keep driving and keep being
00:14:49
passionate about progressing but you
00:14:51
also want to do your time you want to
00:14:53
make sure that you're learning at those
00:14:55
lower levels tucked away when no one's
00:14:57
watching
00:14:58
um you're learning off other referees
00:14:59
off players watching your games so that
00:15:01
when you do you know hit NBC you do hit
00:15:03
Super Rugby you know you can hit the
00:15:05
ground running but yeah that's just you
00:15:07
just learned it and you know I'm still
00:15:08
learning like you learn every year well
00:15:10
the rules just don't change but you know
00:15:12
you better these new developments foul
00:15:15
play
00:15:16
um how you deal in every moment because
00:15:17
every little tackle every bit of Foul
00:15:19
Play Every Little Rock every scrum is
00:15:22
slightly different to what you've ever
00:15:23
had before yeah so you've got to be
00:15:24
adaptable when you've got to keep
00:15:25
working on your mental skills and all
00:15:27
that kind of stuff to be able to do it
00:15:28
so that's cool yeah you mentioned um
00:15:29
just a second ago that you're still
00:15:30
learning um there's going to be people
00:15:32
in the waikato listening to this that no
00:15:34
yeah
00:15:36
you haven't learned
00:15:37
what are you gonna say but I think it
00:15:39
was just another kid I was like all of
00:15:40
New Zealand apart from people in the
00:15:42
South Island around Canterbury so yeah
00:15:45
oh man it's just crazy so um
00:15:48
yes
00:15:49
um I mean I like as I said at the
00:15:52
beginning of this thing like riffing's
00:15:53
not something I ever thought about like
00:15:54
you watch the game the rift makes some
00:15:56
some bad calls or whatever and you know
00:15:58
you get annoyed and then you just move
00:16:00
on with it but it's like
00:16:02
since prepping for this interview just
00:16:04
thinking about like what's involved and
00:16:05
what you go through it's it's phenomenal
00:16:07
it's a lot how how far would you run in
00:16:10
a game
00:16:11
um being the runners podcast is a good
00:16:12
question
00:16:13
um we run eight and a half I don't know
00:16:15
so we have a little GPS on the back yeah
00:16:18
um so we're pretty specific on that and
00:16:20
you know we look at
00:16:21
um Leafly rightly dominance you know how
00:16:23
many accelerations we're doing
00:16:24
decelerations because that's all around
00:16:27
um you know have you have you prepped
00:16:29
enough for that load during the week as
00:16:30
well so when we were training we need to
00:16:31
we wear our GPS's so that I want to I
00:16:33
need to know that I'm heading a certain
00:16:34
number of K's during the week a certain
00:16:36
number of excels D cells so then you
00:16:39
know
00:16:39
I can do that in the game and I won't
00:16:41
get injured so it's all about injury
00:16:42
prevention and and so we would yeah so
00:16:44
we'd run about eight and a half if you
00:16:45
ran more than that you've got to ask
00:16:47
yourself okay was this game just one of
00:16:49
those games where you where you ran a
00:16:50
lot more like there's a lot more trials
00:16:51
a lot more kicking up and down the field
00:16:53
or actually were you out of position a
00:16:55
lot and that's why you're having to run
00:16:57
to catch up
00:16:58
um and the other thing is if you were
00:17:00
under that was it just a really slow
00:17:01
game you're up in the northern
00:17:02
hemisphere it's boggy it's weird there's
00:17:04
just scrum after scrum so you're not
00:17:05
moving a lot or again were you not
00:17:07
keeping up with play so there's all
00:17:09
these you know so you've got to look at
00:17:11
those things around you know those
00:17:12
commoners that you're doing but
00:17:13
generally it is yeah it's about eight
00:17:15
and a half but you know we're in control
00:17:17
we're the ones with the whistle so we
00:17:18
can stop them when we get tired
00:17:20
we're not like players who have to make
00:17:22
tackles and you know the the fitness
00:17:23
that they have yeah yeah it's great but
00:17:25
I mean the running's just one aspect of
00:17:27
the game but it's like you've got to run
00:17:29
and then you've got to think with a
00:17:30
clear head and you're making you know
00:17:31
like it's easy to watch uh watch a game
00:17:34
at home and see something in slow motion
00:17:35
and go oh how did the rift miss that
00:17:37
that was so forward but you're seeing
00:17:39
all this stuff happening a high high
00:17:40
speed and you're running as well and
00:17:42
you've got an earpiece and are people
00:17:44
talking to you yep they are that would
00:17:45
annoy the [ __ ] out of me you get used to
00:17:47
it
00:17:48
um so I mean I I see I review my game I
00:17:50
see in slow motion all the camera angles
00:17:52
everyone can see at home it's like how
00:17:53
did I make that call you know you get
00:17:54
that a lot
00:17:55
um so you just have to train yourself to
00:17:57
to be better in the moment live and I
00:17:59
always have this thing about trust and
00:18:00
enjoy so like trust your instinct 99 of
00:18:02
the time your instinct's correct when
00:18:03
you've trained well so you've done all
00:18:05
the work leading up to the game your
00:18:06
instinct's often correct because you get
00:18:08
into a game where you're like you might
00:18:09
even see on the big screen you know like
00:18:11
before passing that Crusaders and the
00:18:13
Crusaders Chiefs game you see it on the
00:18:14
big screen afterwards and you gotta you
00:18:16
gotta be able to see that process that
00:18:18
after the fact go I can't do anything
00:18:20
about it I've missed that
00:18:22
but I can't let it influence anything
00:18:24
else that happens in the game because it
00:18:25
just can snowball are your decisions can
00:18:27
snowball so yes a lot of it's physical a
00:18:29
lot of us as you've got to be able to
00:18:30
make a you've got to be able to make a
00:18:32
clear decision so a lot of that's around
00:18:33
processes
00:18:34
but also you have to have a clear mind
00:18:35
after running eight kilometers in the
00:18:37
game it's a 79th minute you've got to be
00:18:39
able to reach that tackle
00:18:40
get in a position where you can make a
00:18:42
call that could be the game defining
00:18:43
like you make the call and it's game
00:18:45
defining but also not making a Call's
00:18:47
game defining as well so you you need to
00:18:49
be able to have a clear head and you
00:18:51
can't be fatigued or tired to be able to
00:18:52
make those decisions so we do a lot of
00:18:54
practice during the week around that
00:18:55
about decision making Under Pressure
00:18:57
decision making under fatigue obviously
00:18:59
we do a lot of Clips over the last few
00:19:01
years we've actually been engaged with
00:19:02
rugby team so I've been in with the
00:19:05
Hurricanes for the last two years and
00:19:06
every other professional referees had
00:19:08
one team of bema so I can't I can't ever
00:19:10
do anything with that team I can't TMO
00:19:12
referee AR with them but what I can do
00:19:14
is I actually go into their trainings
00:19:15
and train with them referee their
00:19:17
trainings and for me it's deliberate
00:19:19
practice so I'm actually able to get
00:19:21
there with
00:19:22
a group of players and we can just go
00:19:24
through line out to more line out to
00:19:26
more and I can do 20 line out to malls
00:19:27
in a row it's helping them because
00:19:29
that's what their training is it's also
00:19:30
helping me because otherwise the only
00:19:32
time I get to practice this and this is
00:19:33
crazy historically the only time that
00:19:35
referees ever get to practice that is in
00:19:37
the game
00:19:38
so you know how can you it's really hard
00:19:40
to perform like you're in a performance
00:19:42
Zone but you're also in a Learning Zone
00:19:44
as well where you want to just be
00:19:46
performing so what's what's worked
00:19:48
really well with New Zealand Rugby now
00:19:49
is putting us all in those environments
00:19:51
we can actually get in that Learning
00:19:53
Zone so we can perform on the weekend
00:19:55
but we still make mistakes right that's
00:19:56
all that's always going to happen you
00:19:58
just want to listen your mistakes
00:20:00
make them least critical and and not
00:20:02
make the same mistake again I think
00:20:04
that's the main thing you've got to do
00:20:05
when you learn and you review stuff yeah
00:20:06
when you do make a mistake how do you
00:20:08
how do you reset
00:20:09
um I forget where maybe I heard uh
00:20:11
Gilbert and noker on a podcast or maybe
00:20:13
it's the Richie mccorm movie or the the
00:20:15
book Legacy which is a great book about
00:20:16
the All Blacks but um he talks about
00:20:18
players resetting by maybe um like
00:20:20
pulling a blade of grass out or tapping
00:20:23
their boots or looking at someone in the
00:20:24
crowd um as a rift you have the same
00:20:26
sort of strategy like if you if you make
00:20:28
a [ __ ] up how do you how do you pack it
00:20:30
and move on
00:20:31
yeah so so mine is mine is sort of like
00:20:33
a like a a visualization but self-talk
00:20:37
so my dad when he when he was referring
00:20:39
um like he would always he had always
00:20:40
had his leg you know that was his sort
00:20:42
of reset and so all those other ones who
00:20:44
talked about Dom are really good ones
00:20:46
that people find and for me it's that
00:20:48
that one that I sort of meant said
00:20:49
before and I've got it engraved in my
00:20:51
whistle and it's just trust and enjoy so
00:20:53
trust that in the in the moment you've
00:20:54
made the best decision in the moment and
00:20:56
just enjoy the game and so I have that
00:20:58
and I don't necessarily have to talk
00:20:59
about whistle but like I'll make a I'll
00:21:01
make a mistake on the field I'll see it
00:21:02
on the big screen
00:21:04
um and I'll just go trust and enjoy move
00:21:05
on and because in that moment as well
00:21:08
you can't process whether you're right
00:21:10
or wrong so you like in that moment you
00:21:12
might actually not realize you're wrong
00:21:13
yet so I can't keep thinking about that
00:21:15
potential era I've got to move on to
00:21:17
next I've got I've got like so I had an
00:21:20
example a few years ago where I refereed
00:21:21
Australia versus France and I red carded
00:21:24
Marie Cora Beauty in the second minute
00:21:26
of the game the second minute of a test
00:21:27
match gave a red card back then red
00:21:29
cards were still the whole game so so
00:21:31
like this is this is a big momentum
00:21:34
you want to be able to go through a
00:21:35
process to be able to make a decision
00:21:36
because I don't want to shy away from
00:21:37
big decisions you know that's not that's
00:21:38
not me but I want to make the correct
00:21:40
decisions I knew in that moment and I
00:21:42
remember so I've got I've got this like
00:21:44
I've got this um
00:21:45
I've got a lot of fail safes in my game
00:21:47
you know like I always got all these
00:21:48
safety nets that I you know try and plug
00:21:50
holes so when I when I find I've made an
00:21:51
error I plug a hole and from what I've
00:21:54
learned from from this game so I gave a
00:21:56
red card it was an error but I had 78
00:21:59
minutes of the game to get through and I
00:22:01
couldn't think about whether it was an
00:22:02
air or not I knew it was a big decision
00:22:03
I worked out after the game that was an
00:22:05
ERA but what I was proud about mostly is
00:22:07
that I referred it seven eight minutes
00:22:09
purely around what was in front of me
00:22:11
and I didn't I didn't let that potential
00:22:13
so what I told myself was was trust and
00:22:15
enjoy and
00:22:16
and that got me through like one
00:22:18
decision snowballing into another
00:22:19
instant to another into another and and
00:22:21
so the fail safe that I had from that
00:22:23
now so it used to be so when you have a
00:22:24
red and yellow card to referees have
00:22:26
these little pocket pouches
00:22:28
so you normally have like it's one side
00:22:30
each so red card in the yellow card I've
00:22:32
got to booklet now that you have to open
00:22:34
so there's four Pockets so for me to get
00:22:36
to my red card which is on the inside
00:22:38
I've got to go through a yellow card on
00:22:40
the outside turn it over there's another
00:22:42
yellow card on the outside I've got to
00:22:43
open it there's another yellow card
00:22:45
there and then I get to my red so if I
00:22:47
ever have to give a red card in the game
00:22:48
My fail safe is that I've gotta I've got
00:22:50
to ask myself is this really a red three
00:22:52
times and so that's stuff that you know
00:22:54
people will never know that's what
00:22:56
referees do but we don't just go and
00:22:57
make a decision like a lot of our
00:22:59
decisions are based on a history of
00:23:02
training learning experiences scars on
00:23:05
my back a little fail safes like this
00:23:07
and that's why people like
00:23:10
if we look at the top referees in the
00:23:11
world Wayne Barnes Jaco Piper they they
00:23:14
have all those experiences and they've
00:23:15
been able to keep to the top of the game
00:23:16
because they've learned from from all
00:23:18
the mistakes and the good games of
00:23:20
course that they've done as well yeah
00:23:22
yeah that's interesting do you know how
00:23:23
many red cards you've given out in your
00:23:25
career is it the sort of is it the sort
00:23:27
of thing that um red cards are a big
00:23:28
deal yeah I remember um like I'm not a
00:23:31
huge sports fan I watched um like the
00:23:33
Super Rugby final when I watched Eagle
00:23:34
black games but I remember like Sunny
00:23:36
bill got one a few years ago and I was
00:23:37
like oh that's the first all black red
00:23:38
card in x amount of years so it's a when
00:23:41
you give a red card it's a massive
00:23:42
staying on someone's reputation right it
00:23:44
is it's really interesting for us to
00:23:46
referees too yeah to to take take it on
00:23:48
board as well because
00:23:49
when we like okay so how many retards
00:23:51
I've given I wouldn't know it's not a
00:23:53
stat I like to keep like I don't I don't
00:23:55
know it's not on my wall as a trophy
00:23:57
it's like you know there's the nose
00:23:58
tattooed on your arm yeah because I
00:24:00
don't like actually yeah with myself in
00:24:02
a game like that like I don't think any
00:24:03
referee does
00:24:04
um so I reckon I've probably given four
00:24:05
or five
00:24:06
um and there was been probably a few
00:24:08
years I went without giving one and then
00:24:10
you know then you give one
00:24:13
um and it feels good same thing yeah yes
00:24:16
I like that then like you give pin we
00:24:18
tries I mean like I highly ever give
00:24:19
penalty tries and it's not because they
00:24:21
weren't ones to give in the game
00:24:24
um but they just don't really come up
00:24:25
that that often but then last week in
00:24:27
South Africa I gave two you know in in
00:24:29
one game and you just go through and go
00:24:31
Yep this is another one
00:24:32
um I can't I've got to be able to give
00:24:34
it this is the rule this is my job is to
00:24:36
refree this game
00:24:37
um it's another pin we try yellow card
00:24:38
so
00:24:39
um and you know the All Blacks they sort
00:24:41
of went through a spout of I think we
00:24:42
had one maybe one each year so yeah then
00:24:44
we had these Law changes around here
00:24:46
contact so with men like referees are
00:24:47
just dishing out red cards all over the
00:24:49
place
00:24:49
um I think we're in a space now where um
00:24:51
especially with the World Cup coming up
00:24:53
we're in a good space with probably the
00:24:55
amount of sanctions that referees are
00:24:56
going to give because it's a big it is a
00:24:59
big deal
00:25:00
um you know it goes it lasts the whole
00:25:01
game and like going back to that
00:25:03
original question like it is a big deal
00:25:05
for for refreeze but we understand it's
00:25:07
a big deal for players as well like it
00:25:09
goes on this audition so if they ever
00:25:11
came into trouble later on like that red
00:25:14
card is against their name
00:25:16
um if players are carded multiple times
00:25:19
you know they lose contracts you know
00:25:21
like coaches actually can't use them
00:25:22
anymore so I think we realized that like
00:25:24
it's quite sensitive for us to be free
00:25:26
so while our job is there to to make
00:25:28
sure that we make a judgments around the
00:25:30
game
00:25:32
um which which may mean giving these
00:25:34
cards out you know we need to make sure
00:25:35
that they are good judgments you know
00:25:37
Common Sense decisions rather than just
00:25:39
just throwing the book and going law 12
00:25:41
BC yep you've failed here's another card
00:25:43
that's so much appreciated like you've
00:25:45
got you've got to make these
00:25:46
career impact decisions decisions so
00:25:49
quickly
00:25:50
yeah yeah I mean yeah it's pressure
00:25:53
um you know it's it's saying privilege
00:25:55
you know preachers are privilege and all
00:25:57
that kind of stuff and I I do think that
00:25:59
you know like when you you run out
00:26:00
there's 80 000 people in the stadium
00:26:02
they're watching The Players they're
00:26:03
watching the game you're in control of
00:26:04
the game and like like you see at the
00:26:06
start you know you want to blend into
00:26:07
the background you don't want to be
00:26:08
noticed but sometimes you know you've
00:26:10
got to control the game because because
00:26:12
the players are always pushing the
00:26:13
boundary
00:26:14
um and you know that and you know
00:26:16
there's a balance between the spectacle
00:26:18
of the game and also the safety of the
00:26:19
players that's what we're always
00:26:20
constantly trying to do so you want to
00:26:22
be able to set boundaries and this is
00:26:23
one of my my brand that I try and refer
00:26:25
you to is that I like to create an
00:26:27
environment that showcases the talents
00:26:29
of the players
00:26:31
um through you know excellent management
00:26:32
and adjudication and it's something that
00:26:34
the spectators love to watch that sort
00:26:36
of I always think that like when I go
00:26:37
out that's what I want to do so that's
00:26:39
about the player it's about the game
00:26:40
it's about people what people are
00:26:41
watching
00:26:42
so sometimes it means you have to make
00:26:43
big decisions and then with the pressure
00:26:46
of that
00:26:47
um you sort of just get in the zone like
00:26:48
you just get in the moment so you don't
00:26:50
you don't think oh [ __ ] this is this is
00:26:52
a big pressure moment like okay I need
00:26:54
to start I need I need to switch on you
00:26:55
just you just get you just like strap
00:26:57
into the roller coaster get into the 80
00:26:58
minutes and you get out the other end
00:27:00
it's all like often the night before a
00:27:02
game at 9 00 PM so which would be after
00:27:05
the game the next night I'm thinking
00:27:06
okay this time tomorrow night
00:27:07
who knows what it's going to be like who
00:27:09
knows how the media is going to act who
00:27:11
knows how the game went who knows how
00:27:12
many cards I gave that's kind of the the
00:27:14
unknown's exciting and and to be fair
00:27:17
one thing I reckon which is happening
00:27:18
I've always talked about how my
00:27:19
medicines complemented my refrain
00:27:21
is
00:27:22
um like while refereeing got me out of
00:27:24
the clinics and you know physically you
00:27:26
know get your fit so then you're
00:27:27
mentally engaged in clinics
00:27:31
yeah there's pressure in rugby but
00:27:33
there's pressure there's more pressure
00:27:34
medicine you know there's more there's
00:27:36
more consequences of medicine when I'm
00:27:38
dealing with someone's Vision when I
00:27:39
worked in Ed when we were in The Recess
00:27:41
Bay you know we've had to deal with I
00:27:42
had to deal with some pretty gnarly
00:27:43
stuff now that's pressure that's that's
00:27:45
quick decision making that's
00:27:48
um you know having to have conversations
00:27:50
with family members about you know and
00:27:53
an injury or
00:27:55
um someone that's passed away you know
00:27:56
those those types of things gives you
00:27:58
perspective so that when I go out into a
00:27:59
Rugby field yes I want to do as well as
00:28:01
I can for the game but I think it helps
00:28:03
me with the pressure it helps me with
00:28:04
those big those sort of big key moments
00:28:06
yeah yeah
00:28:07
about that but that's a good way of
00:28:08
looking at it you're not saving a baby's
00:28:09
life are you it's just a sports game
00:28:11
yeah like yeah and
00:28:13
like sports games entertainment you know
00:28:16
it is entertaining and and it's really
00:28:17
important for a lot of people so that's
00:28:19
where I find my meaning around you know
00:28:21
what I do like I'm part of the
00:28:22
entertainment package part of the sports
00:28:24
package you know people with all the
00:28:26
controversy that happened the final
00:28:27
people love that final they thought it
00:28:29
was a great game you know like what
00:28:30
about it was excellent It's the same
00:28:32
thing with but um I thought the first 20
00:28:34
minutes of a springbok New Zealand game
00:28:35
last week I was on the sidelines
00:28:37
um was one of the best 20 minutes I've
00:28:39
seen the All Blacks play in a long time
00:28:40
and like it was exciting watching that
00:28:42
again on TV so I love rugby and I love
00:28:45
the sport I love being involved and be
00:28:46
engaged in it and you know we get to do
00:28:48
all these amazing things and we've got a
00:28:49
World Cup coming up and so that gives
00:28:51
you your enjoyment but also I reckon the
00:28:53
biggest thing you don't get thanked a
00:28:54
lot and we don't we don't ask the fact
00:28:56
as a referee but
00:28:57
I remember
00:28:59
a few months ago I was working in the
00:29:00
clinic and I'd seen a patient the week
00:29:01
before and and they came and saw they
00:29:04
came and saw me back
00:29:05
um a week later with given some drops
00:29:07
they had an infection
00:29:08
and they just thanked me I like being
00:29:10
thank you for you helping me out for
00:29:12
last week and I thought it hit me it hit
00:29:13
me around just being appreciated in that
00:29:16
role because you don't get really you
00:29:18
don't get appreciated
00:29:19
but that's that's the task of a referee
00:29:22
right
00:29:23
um so as a good little moment there yeah
00:29:25
okay so um how big is um how big is the
00:29:29
rule book and what's involved in
00:29:30
becoming like a professional World level
00:29:33
referee do you have to like memorize
00:29:36
that and do is there an exam do you need
00:29:38
to know the rules like inside and out
00:29:40
and so the rule book's probably about
00:29:42
that thick right
00:29:43
um well for anyone that's listening to
00:29:45
this and not watching it we're talking
00:29:47
like a good book length a couple hundred
00:29:49
Pages maybe it's like a healthy size of
00:29:51
a wallet like I've got a few notes in
00:29:52
that wallet but you probably only use
00:29:54
that much like an even smaller amount
00:29:56
like a third of it so there's a lot of
00:29:58
there's a lot of technical stuff in the
00:30:00
game that if I if I if we hit a rock
00:30:02
with a game right now we're referring
00:30:04
you're my assistant referee and we
00:30:05
refereed a game to the book we would so
00:30:08
an average amount of pennies in the game
00:30:10
kind of averages out to between 18 25
00:30:12
but if we refreed by the book
00:30:15
we would blow 150 penalties in the game
00:30:17
so you can imagine watching that that'd
00:30:19
be terrible oh my God every every 10
00:30:21
seconds we're like okay your hands up to
00:30:23
the ground you've gone off feet you
00:30:25
didn't roll away You're offside that's a
00:30:27
forward pass that's an icon so you know
00:30:30
as a referee that's what you're trying
00:30:31
to manage and that's the sort of best
00:30:32
referees in the world manage that
00:30:34
balance of what needs like getting what
00:30:36
matters while maintaining flow and you
00:30:39
want to keep the flow in the game but
00:30:40
you don't want it to be loose but you
00:30:42
don't want to be so restrictive that
00:30:43
you're blowing every every sort of
00:30:44
penalty so so what you do so how you get
00:30:46
involved in it um like I always say that
00:30:49
it would be easier to start at test
00:30:51
match level because the game's a cleaner
00:30:53
teams are well coached players are well
00:30:55
drilled when someone does something
00:30:56
wrong it sticks out
00:30:58
with a few referee in under 12s game
00:31:00
like just bees around any part
00:31:02
they're going nuts for this this bullets
00:31:04
it's tough to referee so you're trying
00:31:06
to manage that yeah
00:31:07
um but yeah you just so you just go out
00:31:09
in the middle like a player and just
00:31:10
learn so you read the laws you
00:31:12
understand like you understand
00:31:14
um what a player needs to do at a tackle
00:31:16
you understand that players need to be
00:31:17
on side in the game you understand you
00:31:19
know all those Basics and you just you
00:31:21
just Build It Up over years and then you
00:31:23
could talk Utah level where it starts
00:31:25
happening quicker you know [ __ ] this is
00:31:26
fast okay like that tackle just happened
00:31:28
well always pass sorry to a wing I need
00:31:30
to run so you've got to start thinking
00:31:31
of how do I get over to that position
00:31:34
over there where I'm in a position where
00:31:36
I've got time and space I've got a clear
00:31:38
view to everything
00:31:39
and I'm there early enough that I can
00:31:41
see it unfold I'm not coming late
00:31:43
because if I come late then they pass
00:31:45
and I'm chasing the ball again the other
00:31:46
Wings because you start thinking about
00:31:47
your positioning and your running lines
00:31:49
so you work on that so you go down to
00:31:51
the park and you know like and I kind of
00:31:53
still do this now you put cones out on a
00:31:54
park and I look a bit stupid if you're
00:31:56
watching me but I run to a cone set up
00:31:58
my positioning and I do my staircase
00:32:01
running zigzag running so that if the
00:32:03
players go out to the right so they're
00:32:05
passing out to the wing
00:32:06
instead of me chasing a ball what I do
00:32:08
is I run forward to get into space so
00:32:11
away from the play and then across so
00:32:13
then by the time where I've run across
00:32:15
they've passed and they've run forward
00:32:17
they get tackled and I'm there and so
00:32:19
that's how you referee a game you're
00:32:20
always zigzagging so you're sort of
00:32:21
running up into the space clear view
00:32:23
running across there zigzag staircase
00:32:26
running and instead of and not doing the
00:32:29
loop so that's that's the one thing you
00:32:30
learn there so you go cool okay I've
00:32:31
learned how to be able to do that so
00:32:32
I've got time and space but now the
00:32:34
tackle there's so much happening at the
00:32:35
tackle I've got to work out a process
00:32:36
where one of my key things I think I
00:32:39
need to refrey at the tackle
00:32:40
one of the important things for the
00:32:42
games that's that's you getting that law
00:32:43
book down to that sort of third and then
00:32:45
how am I going to pack up on this
00:32:46
because if I tried to go and people
00:32:48
people normally do like when you start
00:32:49
you probably say there's 10 things that
00:32:51
attack or you go okay every tackle I'm
00:32:52
going okay tackler's got to roll
00:32:54
tackler's got to Res
00:32:56
um bulk Arrow's got a place the ball
00:32:58
people have got to enter they've got to
00:32:59
enter through the gate they've got to be
00:33:00
on their feet they've got to be staying
00:33:01
on their feet they've got to drive
00:33:02
through they can't touch the ball it's
00:33:04
now Ruck you know but you can't Pro you
00:33:06
can't do that 150 times in the game okay
00:33:08
quick so you've actually got to break it
00:33:09
down even further so
00:33:11
how I think how you get to the
00:33:12
professional levels and this is what
00:33:13
I've done I think this is why I'm
00:33:14
successful as I've broken it so much
00:33:16
it's like down even further that every
00:33:17
tackle I basically just look for one
00:33:19
thing so if the attack was going forward
00:33:21
so if we've got like Richie McCord
00:33:22
hitting the ball up he carries he hits
00:33:24
through the d-line the most important
00:33:25
thing probably for that the priority is
00:33:28
actually getting an attacker out of the
00:33:29
way so every Tech I'll just go okay
00:33:30
tackle release and roll next one tackle
00:33:32
release and roll
00:33:33
then if Richie McCaw got tackled
00:33:35
backwards and a dominant tackle and
00:33:38
someone was isolated over the ball I
00:33:39
just I'll just think about okay is that
00:33:40
player held on so I don't need to worry
00:33:42
about the tacklers and so I've broken
00:33:44
The Tackle part of the game down to such
00:33:46
a small level that it's easier to be
00:33:48
able to process
00:33:49
the same thing happens at the scrum so
00:33:51
much can happen in a scrum but basically
00:33:52
I just look at
00:33:54
um how they kept their height do they
00:33:55
have a good bind are they pushing
00:33:57
straight so when you break it down to
00:33:59
those simple levels when you're in a big
00:34:01
game when you're under pressure when in
00:34:03
the moment that's the kind of stuff you
00:34:05
can come back to rather than trying to
00:34:06
read a whole law book yeah but that
00:34:08
takes time like I I would tell someone
00:34:10
that's the method that works for me but
00:34:12
there'd be many different referees out
00:34:13
in the world that would do something
00:34:14
similar but they'd have the different
00:34:16
way but you've got to build up to get
00:34:17
there I couldn't I couldn't you couldn't
00:34:19
start referring tomorrow I'll give you
00:34:21
that way of me doing it you've actually
00:34:23
got to learn it and develop it a lot of
00:34:24
it becomes ingrained yeah
00:34:26
subconscious it's all muscle memory so
00:34:28
even people always ask like how do you
00:34:30
get out of the way of like in in your
00:34:32
position how do you how do you get out
00:34:33
of the way of play and it's subconscious
00:34:35
now it's muscle memory because I've I've
00:34:37
trained myself with the cones to always
00:34:39
be in the gap between the second and
00:34:41
third pillar really really flat I take
00:34:43
one step the defense comes up I'm out of
00:34:45
the way so I've I've probably might
00:34:47
touch wood only been knocked over twice
00:34:50
in my whole career and like I'm proud of
00:34:52
that because I work hard on that where
00:34:53
it's actually really hard in the chaos
00:34:55
of a game like not to get not to get hit
00:34:57
at all yeah never a falcon I've never
00:34:59
been Falcon but I've been knocked out
00:35:01
what's a falcon when you hit our ball in
00:35:02
the head no that's embarrassing that's
00:35:05
going to be turned into a gif whenever
00:35:07
you whenever that happens whenever you
00:35:08
get hit as a referee in a game you know
00:35:10
because you always have to you do a
00:35:12
scrum right and so because there's
00:35:13
downtime the camera is always on you and
00:35:16
just like you're always like angry at
00:35:18
yourself you're so happy like you've got
00:35:19
to be like I've Got A Smile as well like
00:35:21
you can't just be this angry grumpy free
00:35:22
on camera so you zoom in on you and you
00:35:24
know you've got to try and just he's
00:35:25
like okay let's just see the scum let's
00:35:27
get out of here oh let's crack up since
00:35:29
you mentioned Richard McCourt before
00:35:31
um when he was playing a lot of people
00:35:33
generally from other countries or other
00:35:34
teams playing against them called him a
00:35:36
cheat is that just because he knew he
00:35:38
knew the rules very well or yeah so I've
00:35:42
watched a lot of the games that he did
00:35:43
and
00:35:45
lie he wasn't no he wasn't a cheat he
00:35:47
just he just was a great flank and this
00:35:49
is what players should always do and I
00:35:50
always so again going back to the um the
00:35:53
key thing around New Zealand Rugby
00:35:54
getting referees in with the with the
00:35:56
with the teams is that
00:35:58
um it does it frustrates me when I watch
00:35:59
a game and I see a player in a great
00:36:01
position and now there the balls right
00:36:03
there and they don't know if they can go
00:36:04
for it or not you know because they you
00:36:06
know they don't know the rules and so
00:36:08
that they've missed the chance to get
00:36:09
their turnover where I think what
00:36:11
players like Richie um is really good at
00:36:13
um see Khaleesi Michael Hooper like all
00:36:15
the all these great International
00:36:16
Players as they know the rules they they
00:36:19
know how we interpret the rules as well
00:36:21
they know like what is a no like okay I
00:36:23
can't enter the side of the racket 90
00:36:25
degrees but they probably know that you
00:36:27
know what I can probably enter at 45
00:36:28
degrees and I'll get away with it so you
00:36:30
know those boundaries
00:36:31
um I think that's what players do in all
00:36:34
parts of the game and that's why I
00:36:35
encourage and I saw that with the
00:36:36
Hurricanes this year the more time I
00:36:38
spent with them the more questions I was
00:36:39
getting from players around what I can
00:36:41
do what I can what players in particular
00:36:43
um so like like the jacklers you know
00:36:45
like um duplicate was he was a guy that
00:36:47
he's such a good jacket for the
00:36:49
hurricanes and like we worked a lot
00:36:51
around okay what can I do around the
00:36:52
pictures that I'm seeing what do what
00:36:54
picture because we all work on pictures
00:36:55
of referees what picture I need to show
00:36:57
you the referee do I need to show them
00:36:58
my hands above my head do I need to do a
00:37:00
star jump before I go on the ball with
00:37:01
like no you don't need to do that you
00:37:02
seem to get off the ball and on it and
00:37:04
and I was really proud when I saw a lot
00:37:06
of turnovers he'd got this year in you
00:37:08
know games at the Hurricanes players
00:37:09
like yeah we got that awesome turnover
00:37:10
because of of the better understanding
00:37:12
that players
00:37:13
um did when they when you know we had
00:37:15
that relationship and I think that's
00:37:16
that's an important part of the game
00:37:17
we've got these stakeholders on the
00:37:19
field of players coaches and referees
00:37:21
I think players and coaches have always
00:37:23
worked well together for so so long but
00:37:24
we've always had this bubble as we
00:37:26
freeze and and you start a season you
00:37:28
might have a meeting at start of the
00:37:29
season with players and coaches
00:37:31
but as referees you sort of that bubble
00:37:32
goes off that train track goes off and
00:37:34
then all of a sudden we're referring a
00:37:35
different game than what the players and
00:37:37
the coaches are coaching
00:37:39
um what we're what we've seen this year
00:37:40
is because we're more aligned with
00:37:41
working together the game's been better
00:37:43
yeah you know if you look at in terms of
00:37:45
controversy
00:37:46
actually I believe that this is probably
00:37:48
the most uncontroversial Subaru if you
00:37:50
look at the whole season like no one was
00:37:52
talking about the referees apart from
00:37:53
everyone in the final but after before
00:37:55
that no one was talking about the
00:37:56
referees and I thought that was a really
00:37:59
successful year for us because
00:38:01
um two parts I think we have a really
00:38:03
good sort of referees in New Zealand but
00:38:04
also Australia like very experienced a
00:38:07
lot of us are going to the World Cup
00:38:08
coming up
00:38:09
um but also I think a lot of it's down
00:38:11
to the work that we're doing with the
00:38:12
teams and the teams are buying into it
00:38:13
and you know you're seeing that on the
00:38:15
field with it with the understanding
00:38:17
yeah oh that's great
00:38:19
um
00:38:20
and what happens after a game like is
00:38:22
there um is there like some sort of
00:38:24
Investigation or an inquiry no you know
00:38:28
what I mean like so you think a lot of
00:38:29
people would like to investigate nobody
00:38:32
you are you sort of like how to account
00:38:33
good or good or bad after a game is that
00:38:36
um you know who watches over you and
00:38:38
your performance do you get like a
00:38:39
report card great question um old way
00:38:41
back in the day you got a report card
00:38:43
and had like a percentage like a pass a
00:38:44
fail it was old school but now nowadays
00:38:48
um a lot of people ask
00:38:49
where's the accountability you know
00:38:51
where's the accountability for those
00:38:52
errors that are referee made in the game
00:38:54
and I think sometimes it's unfair for
00:38:57
people to say that because there is a
00:38:58
lot of accountability
00:38:59
um I guess it's just and this is
00:39:01
something we need to think about I guess
00:39:02
it's just not public they want they want
00:39:04
public accountability being that players
00:39:06
drop from a game that player goes back
00:39:07
referring Club rugby but that's not what
00:39:09
happens to players you know they don't
00:39:11
necessarily get dropped straight after a
00:39:12
game if they make an error you know if
00:39:13
they make multiple heroes in different
00:39:15
games and yes and that would happen with
00:39:16
refreeze as well and you know there's
00:39:18
been times like you know where I've had
00:39:19
a low point in my career where I was
00:39:21
like [ __ ] like I think I'm going to be
00:39:22
dropped I think I'm gonna I'm not gonna
00:39:24
give you more games yeah it was you know
00:39:26
there was a there was a period where I
00:39:28
just like had um like we it was a
00:39:31
Crusaders waratah's game
00:39:33
um we Crusaders went through to score a
00:39:35
try
00:39:36
um and I think one of the Crusaders just
00:39:38
like talk out Curly Bill we wore the try
00:39:40
try goes through halftime go off like
00:39:42
and then Crusaders win this tight game
00:39:44
and when they should never they probably
00:39:45
should never won that game and then a
00:39:47
massive era so we actually missed that
00:39:49
we we talk about processes we didn't
00:39:50
have a process where after every try now
00:39:53
I get the TMO to give me an all clear so
00:39:55
that they've gone through the footage
00:39:56
but also I look at the big screen
00:39:58
instead of drinking water and you know
00:40:00
like having a having time off it's like
00:40:01
no no I'm working hard to make sure this
00:40:03
try is good and if we'd done that we
00:40:05
would have seen this you know active
00:40:06
Foul Play before the trial was scored so
00:40:08
we had that massive era so I can't fix
00:40:09
that part of my game and I still use
00:40:10
that on my game now but then the next
00:40:11
week and the week after
00:40:13
um I just had errors and they just keep
00:40:14
following me and I was like man what is
00:40:16
going on you know like how am I becoming
00:40:18
so bad at like doing like my games at
00:40:20
the moment and so you do reach a low
00:40:22
around
00:40:23
uh you you know you lose confidence yeah
00:40:26
um you get anxious around it and it's
00:40:28
not a nice spot to be in because
00:40:30
actually you do go game to game to game
00:40:32
and this is a lot with social media and
00:40:33
all that kind of stuff um comes into it
00:40:35
because while you get better at not
00:40:37
getting fixed on that and not getting
00:40:41
um you don't find importance in it but
00:40:42
it's out there you know so like when you
00:40:44
are fragile when you're in a low point
00:40:45
it's really easy not to well it's easy
00:40:48
it's easy to sort of find all that kind
00:40:49
of stuff and yeah it just sort of makes
00:40:51
you deep go deeper and we're free it's
00:40:52
the same so yeah I overthink things I
00:40:54
guess as well you don't yeah you think
00:40:55
it's and you do and you just think like
00:40:57
is it just luck or I always I'm always
00:41:00
like quite accountable in terms of like
00:41:01
what I do and I'm like and I always say
00:41:03
that look it's
00:41:05
you had an error because it was a part
00:41:08
of the game that you didn't have that
00:41:09
was that was in your processes fixture
00:41:11
process and you just keep going game and
00:41:13
so all those areas you pick up so I've
00:41:14
got this game package now which I reckon
00:41:17
is pretty robust like I can reckon I can
00:41:18
handle like most things in a game but
00:41:20
they will still be there'll still be
00:41:21
points in a game that I haven't thought
00:41:23
about yet or I haven't hit me yet now I
00:41:25
reckon the majority of my skills will be
00:41:26
able to handle it on the on the Fly
00:41:28
but you never know
00:41:30
um I did that like before a World Cup
00:41:31
last at the last World Cup part of my
00:41:34
preparation for that was going through
00:41:35
all the controversies that had happened
00:41:37
in the previous World Cup or line series
00:41:39
and working out okay so this happened to
00:41:42
this referee this is what they got wrong
00:41:45
does my processes does my game package
00:41:47
account for that and if I said yes tick
00:41:49
okay cool okay I don't need to worry
00:41:50
about that being an era that won't be a
00:41:52
controversy to happen one of my games
00:41:53
but I'd find something else and be like
00:41:55
okay I haven't I've never had them a
00:41:56
game yet I need to fix that I need to
00:41:58
make sure that I have that in my
00:42:00
processes so that when it happens in a
00:42:01
game I can deal with it
00:42:03
and so like that's that's part of I mean
00:42:06
small parts around the preparation
00:42:07
processes which also leads into the
00:42:09
accountability so when we when we do do
00:42:11
we do a big review after every game
00:42:13
um so I have a coach that watches my
00:42:14
game
00:42:15
um so they'll go through every decision
00:42:17
that I've done and they'll give me my
00:42:19
feedback I'll also watch my game and
00:42:21
what I do is I code it I code all the
00:42:24
decisions that I made all the
00:42:25
non-decision so decisions that I should
00:42:27
make that I missed what do you mean you
00:42:28
code it what does that mean uh so I'll
00:42:30
be on sportscodes a system where you
00:42:32
have all the angles so we get all the
00:42:33
angles in the game and what I do
00:42:36
um a way to take the fun out of a gamer
00:42:38
right yeah yeah I know well I think I've
00:42:40
ruined rugby anyway because I just
00:42:41
watched the referee the whole time
00:42:43
anyone that knows me probably just
00:42:44
watches the referee you're such a
00:42:48
nerdunks to watch a game yeah so hold on
00:42:50
stop that rewind that feels like that
00:42:53
for me they're like but also they keep
00:42:54
going what do you think about that and
00:42:56
I'm like I'm just having a beer and like
00:42:57
my nachos I'm enjoying this yeah so
00:43:00
um but you can't so you code like you'll
00:43:01
like I don't know actually line up you
00:43:04
press a button and then like you code
00:43:05
that window and that code is that 10
00:43:07
seconds of that clip and you'll comment
00:43:09
on that clip and so I'll comment all my
00:43:11
Clips around those yeah how long does it
00:43:13
take you to watch a game it's about four
00:43:15
or five hours wow you know like it's a
00:43:17
long time because you know you go
00:43:19
through there's 150 tackles you go
00:43:21
through every tackle and it's not
00:43:23
necessarily so I'll have these I'll I'll
00:43:25
go through the errors and it's not
00:43:27
necessarily that okay these I've made 20
00:43:30
to 20 penalty decisions I'll know
00:43:32
afterwards 80 was I was accurate there
00:43:34
were 10 non decisions that I should have
00:43:36
made it doesn't necessarily mean that I
00:43:37
should have made 30 decisions in the
00:43:39
game but I just things that you picked
00:43:40
up and I'll then go through and review
00:43:43
okay okay why did I make those errors
00:43:45
was it a positioning thing was it a
00:43:48
misunderstanding of the law that'll need
00:43:50
to get better was I blocked
00:43:53
um
00:43:54
and and that's part of the review to be
00:43:56
able to get better so then I'll create a
00:43:57
learning cycle around what I need to do
00:43:59
the next week before my before my next
00:44:01
game
00:44:02
um and that learning cycle will be
00:44:03
around okay look I've decided at what
00:44:05
I've what I've found I need to get
00:44:06
better at
00:44:07
um create a process to be able to get
00:44:08
better at it practice that process and
00:44:10
then go out and deliver it in the game
00:44:11
so that's how you just keep getting
00:44:13
better game to game to game so so then
00:44:15
the accountability piece comes in where
00:44:17
with my coach and my manager and other
00:44:20
referees we will send in our Clips to
00:44:22
the referee group and we always have a
00:44:23
meeting on a Tuesday and so anything
00:44:25
that um like we're all clear on like the
00:44:27
clips we may have um everyone's like yep
00:44:29
that was an area like you stuff that up
00:44:30
or we agree with your decision
00:44:33
um 50 50
00:44:35
the ones that we we aren't sure on or 50
00:44:36
50 best when we discuss on Tuesday and
00:44:39
we'll go through okay what are the
00:44:40
learnings for a group here like for me
00:44:42
personally and also the group as well so
00:44:44
then if if you're getting games where
00:44:47
and I reckon
00:44:49
you could have 10 errors in the game and
00:44:51
they might not mean anything you know
00:44:52
like referees heavier is yeah but you're
00:44:54
my human you might have one ear in a
00:44:56
game and it changes the game so that
00:44:57
there's a different level and strength
00:44:59
of an era
00:45:01
so if you if you get multiple we've got
00:45:03
to accept that okay you might only
00:45:04
refereate 80 accuracy and that's
00:45:06
actually pretty good for referee but if
00:45:08
that you know of those of those 10
00:45:10
decisions that you make if the two of
00:45:12
them were were a little knock on that
00:45:14
you missed it didn't lead to anything
00:45:14
then okay that's fine you know like you
00:45:16
get okay work on getting that knock on
00:45:18
next time with those two decisions where
00:45:19
I missed necro before a trial was scored
00:45:22
or a missed shoulder charge to the head
00:45:24
or that big decisions you've missed in
00:45:26
the game now and you need to get better
00:45:27
and and if those decisions continue to
00:45:29
happen in the game
00:45:30
then yeah your manager and your coach
00:45:33
who hopefully they'll be aligned would
00:45:35
say look mate we need to we need to
00:45:37
think about obviously support you
00:45:39
work out okay how can we happy to get
00:45:41
better
00:45:42
but we can't keep allowing you to
00:45:45
heavier as in the game and and so that's
00:45:46
where the accountability comes in so
00:45:48
while people don't necessarily see me
00:45:50
referring Club rugby the next weekend as
00:45:52
an accountability piece from yeah
00:45:55
uh which I love Roofing Club rugby by
00:45:57
the way but
00:45:58
um you know we we are there is
00:46:01
accountability yeah and and a lot of it
00:46:02
too way more than what I think anyone
00:46:04
would expect I think we do need to think
00:46:06
about making it a bit more public like I
00:46:07
would love to come out after a game and
00:46:09
I sort of did you know after Super Rugby
00:46:10
final saying look I did I got that Full
00:46:12
Pass wrong this is why I got the Ford
00:46:14
pass wrong I did um an interview with
00:46:16
Mark Stafford and you know sort of
00:46:17
saying on scenes radio that you know I
00:46:19
went too deep into the d-line so my work
00:46:22
on that week was not taking two three
00:46:24
steps into the defensive line when I
00:46:25
transitioned through it's just taking it
00:46:26
one step and then I'll be lying to that
00:46:28
Ford pass and be able to call it full
00:46:30
pass so there is there is that
00:46:32
accountability and and that learning
00:46:34
that learning piece there which which I
00:46:35
think is you know really important for
00:46:37
us to be able to continue to continue to
00:46:39
grow
00:46:40
um and and I think
00:46:41
people love rugby the public loves rugby
00:46:44
I I feel like I believe there is a bit
00:46:46
of a thirst to to try and like get more
00:46:48
from referees and I don't think it's
00:46:50
it's I don't think necessarily they
00:46:52
should be interviewing us straight after
00:46:53
a game because I think it's just a bit
00:46:54
of a Witch Hunt you know there's a lot
00:46:56
of lightning strikes you know get the
00:46:57
referee
00:46:58
um you know we just want to know about
00:47:00
all these areas it's like we haven't
00:47:01
actually done the six hour review yet we
00:47:03
don't know it's a Lynch Mob at that
00:47:04
point but on the on the Monday Tuesday
00:47:06
yeah I want to come out and and I want
00:47:08
to you know we we still we still talk
00:47:10
about how the lion series finished
00:47:13
um in New Zealand um you know was that
00:47:14
the right way for it to have ended by
00:47:16
the referee people want to know the
00:47:17
answer so I'd love for us to be able to
00:47:19
come out and say yes that was correct
00:47:21
because this was the law and then people
00:47:23
can go cool okay let's debate the law
00:47:25
whether the law is right or wrong or we
00:47:28
also want to say look yeah we're
00:47:29
accountable we got that wrong we messed
00:47:30
it up this is what we're going to do to
00:47:32
to get better at it and then people go
00:47:34
okay cool and refreeze referees
00:47:36
accountable and I've said they're sorry
00:47:37
and you know you can't always keep
00:47:39
saying you're sorry but you know at
00:47:40
least as part of the game and and I know
00:47:43
that at this world cup we're looking at
00:47:46
um you know maybe well these are whistle
00:47:48
watch Nigel Owens who's a famous uh
00:47:50
Welsh for free yeah he's the is he the
00:47:53
um the gay one with the with the fierce
00:47:55
one-liners he he is he's hilarious when
00:47:57
you catch him the best one he is the
00:47:59
greatest
00:48:00
I've had a privilege to work with him
00:48:02
many times as his assistant referee but
00:48:04
also he's been my assistant referee when
00:48:06
I refer to game I remember my first six
00:48:07
nations game was in Rome Olivia's France
00:48:09
and then I was standing there at this
00:48:11
moment with a TMO locking a big screen I
00:48:13
had Nigel lines next to me like I was
00:48:15
kid back then you know like it's my
00:48:16
first six nations International game at
00:48:18
that level so that was kind of sort of
00:48:20
pinching myself but um yeah so he's he
00:48:22
sort of got he's got a massive media
00:48:24
presence he's well respected loved
00:48:25
around the world so I think what he's
00:48:27
going to do is and he's kind of been
00:48:28
doing it already with his whistle
00:48:30
watches coming out and and those big
00:48:32
decisions that everyone are talking
00:48:33
about saying like this is the law this
00:48:34
is this is what was decided this is the
00:48:36
quick decision so
00:48:38
um I like how you know the age of media
00:48:41
and social media podcasts you know
00:48:42
everyone's getting out there and you
00:48:44
know explaining more around the other
00:48:45
side of you know this protected Beast it
00:48:48
seems what a refereeing what a referee
00:48:50
is but I don't think we I don't want to
00:48:51
be protected you know we want to get out
00:48:52
there yeah I I think yeah transparency
00:48:54
is good because no one's got any none of
00:48:56
us have got any idea really and you you
00:48:58
have you've read that book yeah none of
00:49:01
us have read that book we do do law
00:49:03
exams about it as well by the way like I
00:49:05
don't know whether that's funny so yeah
00:49:07
and they're always a little bit hard to
00:49:08
do too um so you dropped the name uh
00:49:10
Nigel Owens just a second ago what about
00:49:12
Wayne Barnes if you had much when Barnes
00:49:14
became uh New Zealand Public Enemy
00:49:16
Number One after the World Cup in 27
00:49:18
yeah where he was he was riffing the
00:49:21
French All Blacks game which we lost
00:49:23
um and emphatic fashion really like they
00:49:26
just they just everything went their way
00:49:28
in the second half
00:49:29
um I mean there was an awful you look
00:49:32
back now on reflection it was an awful
00:49:34
time for him like the backlash was uh I
00:49:36
mean what what you had um and we'll get
00:49:38
to this after the Super Rugby final with
00:49:40
the Crusaders and Chiefs it's probably
00:49:42
like a people in the river compared to
00:49:44
what he had well and that's the
00:49:45
difference that's what I would that's
00:49:46
what I realized when I went to my first
00:49:48
World Cup is that the difference is The
00:49:50
Game's the same yeah the Stadium's the
00:49:51
same but the amount of the millions of
00:49:54
people that are watching is very
00:49:55
different you know so especially caught
00:49:57
a farm like that so Wayne Barnes um and
00:50:00
and it was it was great like I got to a
00:50:01
position when I got I was sort of doing
00:50:03
test matches I knew how to referee test
00:50:05
match well so I actually went back and I
00:50:07
watched that game and and honestly like
00:50:09
he nailed that game from every free
00:50:11
point of view like you couldn't referee
00:50:12
that game any better I was like when is
00:50:14
this fordpass coming out because he's
00:50:15
absolutely smoking this game and and and
00:50:18
and I want to say it now and I'm sure he
00:50:20
would probably never say that but any
00:50:21
referee in that position like you'd miss
00:50:23
that Ford pass because you can't keep up
00:50:25
with a French fly that runs up and then
00:50:27
does a pass you know like odd if I was
00:50:28
referring that game I'd be in the same
00:50:29
position as he was and I'd be I'd be
00:50:31
criticized but the benefit now is that
00:50:33
we actually get to check that stuff
00:50:34
before
00:50:35
um after a try scored so they actually
00:50:36
back then they couldn't use the TMO
00:50:38
right so you know his hands were tied um
00:50:40
unfortunately in that situation but so
00:50:42
do I know a Barnes he he's our leader
00:50:44
he's one of the greatest referees I
00:50:46
think it's ever been him and Nigel Owens
00:50:48
but Wayne Barnes is a great friend and
00:50:50
you know we we catch up a lot he always
00:50:52
hosts us around at his place when we're
00:50:54
up in the northern hemisphere he always
00:50:55
gets he loves getting his kiwi guys
00:50:56
around we always bring a bottle of Pinot
00:50:58
Noir from New Zealand his wife always
00:51:00
Cooks a lovely meal like his kids are
00:51:01
there and that's that's the thing around
00:51:04
our group of referees at that level we
00:51:07
we travel a lot together we're in those
00:51:09
High intense moments together we spend
00:51:10
two weeks in Argentina together in South
00:51:12
Africa we are on face time to our family
00:51:14
and friends together we we see things
00:51:16
like um I remember
00:51:18
um you know Angus Gardner and we were
00:51:20
seeing like his boy catch one of his
00:51:22
first fish when we were overseas
00:51:23
together which is a sad part around like
00:51:25
what we do as well you miss those
00:51:26
moments yeah
00:51:28
um but you know we're so tight because
00:51:29
of those moments as well so we've got 12
00:51:31
referees he's going to walk up
00:51:33
um I think if five assistant referees
00:51:36
seven seven tmos and it was such a tight
00:51:38
group not because we have to because of
00:51:40
all the you know things coming our way
00:51:41
but we've just spent so much time
00:51:43
together we understand each other but
00:51:44
really like a team on your own yeah yeah
00:51:46
we're a massive team on our own like we
00:51:47
love to like a little bit of steam off
00:51:49
enjoy each other's company
00:51:51
um we all play golf together we you know
00:51:52
like to go out together have you know
00:51:54
great meals together and and Wayne
00:51:56
Barnes are one of them like great like
00:51:57
such a great great individual human
00:51:58
being so have you did have you I mean
00:52:01
maybe even on a night out after a couple
00:52:03
of Pinos have you had a chat to him
00:52:04
about
00:52:05
I suppose like in 27 it was sort of um
00:52:08
social media wasn't what it is now maybe
00:52:11
it was in the early days of Facebook I
00:52:12
can't really remember are you though I
00:52:13
don't know
00:52:15
Myspace I feel like people release
00:52:18
accessible than what they are now it's
00:52:21
easier to track people down but I mean
00:52:23
what sort of told did that take on as
00:52:24
mental health have you got any idea oh
00:52:25
I've missed a massive time and like
00:52:27
credit to him now like to be where he is
00:52:29
now as the best referee in the world you
00:52:31
know he's got through all of that
00:52:34
um and you know obviously it just it
00:52:35
comes down to a lot of obviously support
00:52:36
that he is from family
00:52:38
um especially his wife and friends like
00:52:40
what a [ __ ] time like terrible time and
00:52:43
yeah and I think he he he talks about it
00:52:45
and like he's so open about it now he
00:52:47
it's quite a good story when he when he
00:52:49
does like his uh as after dinner
00:52:50
speeches and I think he wore a wig for
00:52:53
um the rest of the tournament for the
00:52:54
semis in the finals because he had to
00:52:56
but he had to I'd like a disguise he had
00:52:58
to wear a disguise because like he was
00:53:00
he's well known like he's he's
00:53:01
recognizable especially over there yeah
00:53:03
and I think you know like new zealanders
00:53:05
and a lot of other people you know they
00:53:08
like it was it was really really bad
00:53:10
afterwards so
00:53:11
um he's he's taken all of those
00:53:13
learnings and and obviously bottle that
00:53:14
up learned from it and you know his has
00:53:17
been I think he became the most kept his
00:53:18
International test referee if there's
00:53:20
ever been
00:53:21
um at the start of the year so yeah
00:53:24
um yeah really really hard for him but
00:53:26
like he's been so open about it shared
00:53:28
it with us so you know we can learn
00:53:30
about it for us and you know but there's
00:53:32
there's a lot of examples of this from
00:53:35
it's almost like it'll happen to me if
00:53:37
it hasn't happened to me already but
00:53:38
it'll happen to me again the more the
00:53:40
more the better you become the more
00:53:43
higher games you do the more trust the
00:53:45
bosses have to put you on the big games
00:53:48
um and whether you're right or wrong
00:53:51
whether you're right or wrong like it'll
00:53:52
be controversial so it'll be there'll be
00:53:54
one team that doesn't think you did well
00:53:55
one nation that doesn't think you did
00:53:57
well and one thing that one one nation
00:53:59
that probably thought you did okay so
00:54:00
he's done that you know we've had
00:54:03
um with Bryce Lawrence you know the same
00:54:04
thing with South Africa after his
00:54:06
quarterfinal we're basically you know he
00:54:08
couldn't go back to South Africa and and
00:54:10
it was close to sort of his career
00:54:12
slowly sort of finished after that and
00:54:14
you know he's been really open about it
00:54:15
but you hear about these these guys I
00:54:17
remember we were in Dubai at a camp
00:54:19
and we'd never really sort of had
00:54:21
everyone talk about it officially but we
00:54:22
need to hear that kind of stuff like and
00:54:24
I always say this you've got to be open
00:54:25
about anything communication is key yeah
00:54:27
not just on the field but off the field
00:54:28
with experiences and in life and of
00:54:31
course it works in rugby and we had
00:54:32
these individuals get up there we had
00:54:34
the crazy bear the Bryce Lawrence as the
00:54:36
Wayne Barnes Nigel Owens get up there
00:54:38
and tell us about their moments their
00:54:40
experiences where we're [ __ ] at the fan
00:54:43
and and it all came crashing down for
00:54:45
them and and what they did to learn to
00:54:46
get to get back up front because
00:54:49
um I've I've had moments like that where
00:54:51
games have happened and you've had all
00:54:53
the controversy we talk about Super
00:54:54
Rugby final there's been games before
00:54:55
that and I'm going into one of the
00:54:57
biggest world cup soon I've got I've got
00:54:58
massive pool games
00:55:00
um and if all goes well you know you do
00:55:02
some playoff games
00:55:04
it's a lose-lose for referee right but I
00:55:06
love I love that I love that challenge
00:55:07
but you'll never get out smelling like
00:55:09
roses and if you if you think you're
00:55:11
going to do well you're just you're
00:55:12
sitting yourself up to failure so you
00:55:13
just got to go in there into 10 fight do
00:55:16
as best as you can knowing that no one
00:55:18
else can do as good a job as you can
00:55:20
and then trust and enjoy whatever it is
00:55:22
it is yeah cause I'm a I'm a big
00:55:24
believer in um yeah learning learning
00:55:27
from learning from failure and it making
00:55:28
you a better person but the Wayne Barnes
00:55:30
thing like in 2017 he like he didn't do
00:55:32
anything [ __ ] wrong he didn't do it
00:55:34
you know he wore the this this awful
00:55:38
um you know backlash and uh through no
00:55:40
fight of his own it's horrible but you
00:55:42
know that leads us to like the Super
00:55:43
Rugby thing this year which um
00:55:45
you you shared a lot of the DMS on on
00:55:48
Instagram why did you decide to do that
00:55:51
it's a good question
00:55:54
I I
00:55:55
um you always get DMS after a game right
00:55:58
and no one ever
00:56:00
no one ever congratulates you about a
00:56:02
great game being you know like you don't
00:56:03
get those demons it's always about you
00:56:04
get a handful of
00:56:06
you know the normal stuff that you get
00:56:08
if you've had a really bad game
00:56:09
previously to the final you get maybe 10
00:56:12
or 20 and you're like okay yeah maybe
00:56:14
maybe I did like you know Screw some
00:56:15
stuff up
00:56:17
but then like it was just after that
00:56:18
final I knew that we made it like a few
00:56:21
years right like we missed a Ford pass
00:56:22
and I still argue like I got it wrong
00:56:25
but it didn't lead to a try that
00:56:27
everyone's talking about you know there
00:56:28
was still there was a turnover it was a
00:56:30
restart and play then we had a try after
00:56:32
you know so
00:56:34
we got it wrong we we got the red card
00:56:36
wrong
00:56:37
um it should have been a red card
00:56:38
instead of a yellow like we now know
00:56:39
that so you know we went both ways but
00:56:41
apart from that
00:56:43
like I I followed processes around
00:56:45
giving the yellow cards when I needed to
00:56:48
around repeat infringements I talked to
00:56:50
the captains I always go through a
00:56:51
process go through warnings three
00:56:53
penalties give you a warning yes you've
00:56:55
got time to talk to the players then
00:56:56
when you give the yellow card you're
00:56:58
unexpects it when you get a silicon at
00:57:00
the end of the game you know Sam Kane
00:57:02
coming aside you know it's like
00:57:04
by then my job as I saw her to give this
00:57:07
yellow card this is part of the game if
00:57:09
I was soft here because I've already and
00:57:11
this is this is the this is the mountain
00:57:12
I felt against I was like man so much is
00:57:14
going against the Chiefs here
00:57:15
and you know when I reviewed the game I
00:57:18
actually went through the review and you
00:57:19
know I put my hands up for a few things
00:57:21
but I actually thought it was an okay
00:57:22
performance like it wasn't it it didn't
00:57:25
it didn't it didn't
00:57:27
um account for the backlash that I got
00:57:29
the backlash was just unprecedented I
00:57:31
couldn't believe it like my my phone was
00:57:33
just going absolutely ballistic
00:57:36
and and so that was that was I think the
00:57:38
crazy thing about it and um
00:57:40
I guess like it was people just loved
00:57:42
the final I could feel there's a buzz
00:57:44
about it there was New Zealand
00:57:47
I think all of New Zealand wanted the
00:57:49
Chiefs to win apart from Canterbury you
00:57:51
know like so that was part of as well it
00:57:52
was such an emotional passionate
00:57:54
response and you know it's like we're
00:57:56
we're charged to do these types of games
00:57:57
you know and that's what I loved about
00:57:59
doing about it and so all of the stuff
00:58:01
came in after the game and oh there's
00:58:02
some real bad stuff you know there was
00:58:04
some oh mate so I've got some of it um
00:58:06
some of it typed out
00:58:08
I was when we when we locked on this
00:58:10
interview I thought uh it might it might
00:58:12
be quite fun to do like a Jimmy Jimmy
00:58:13
Fallon Mean Tweets thing and get some
00:58:15
get you to read some of them out but as
00:58:16
I was typing them out
00:58:18
like some of it's just not funny like
00:58:20
it's like it's it's rude it's homophobic
00:58:22
it's inappropriate if if anyone wrote
00:58:25
messages like this to direct it at a
00:58:27
prime minister
00:58:28
um there'd be police investigations and
00:58:30
they'll be tracking the person down but
00:58:31
it's I mean I'll share some of them uh
00:58:35
you should have been on
00:58:36
um on that Titanic submarine you asked
00:58:38
why that one hit me that one hit me
00:58:41
because I couldn't believe how much
00:58:42
social media like the you know and what
00:58:46
what an awful event that happened and
00:58:48
there was so much bad stuff about that
00:58:50
at the same time as well and then when
00:58:52
that happened like I thought that was
00:58:54
awful that was really bad that one um
00:58:57
that one I remember I remember like
00:58:59
going through and I was like oh wow I
00:59:01
think I stopped on that one I was like
00:59:03
that that hurt that one hurt yeah it's
00:59:05
just it's it's really mean on a whole
00:59:07
lot of different levels um there's one
00:59:09
for just I'm sure you can shake this off
00:59:10
South Island ref cheat [ __ ] off yeah
00:59:13
yeah
00:59:14
um bro honestly retires some outrageous
00:59:16
calls from you are you not replying to
00:59:18
me because you have Razor's [ __ ] in your
00:59:20
mouth
00:59:25
it's keyboard Warriors but it's like
00:59:27
there's a little profile picture next to
00:59:29
it so they're doing it on their own
00:59:30
accounts you can click through his
00:59:32
profile is probably something like Good
00:59:33
Vibes only yeah you're like yeah love my
00:59:36
family love my kids the
00:59:40
um like you know I make it easier by
00:59:42
like I like and like it's it's really
00:59:44
funny you know
00:59:45
um
00:59:46
I always think like my name I've got a
00:59:48
lot of apostrophe one Apostrophe a lot
00:59:49
of E's a lot of F's you know it's
00:59:50
actually quite hard to I want my and
00:59:52
this is
00:59:53
my account is public right yeah and I'll
00:59:56
talk about that why later but
00:59:58
um you know for you to be so mad at what
01:00:00
I did that you've got to actually search
01:00:02
and type my name out right get the
01:00:04
apostrophe right get the odk the 2E is
01:00:06
not money f2fs then the E and then so
01:00:09
you found that I thought I found Ben
01:00:11
okay good I've got them and now I've
01:00:13
been to like title that I'm just like
01:00:14
you know what wow that's crazy you've
01:00:16
got energy you've got energy yeah I'll
01:00:18
read some more reasons one of my
01:00:19
favorites that you shared um seriously
01:00:22
mate you need to take uh you need some
01:00:24
[ __ ] glasses you tear and then
01:00:27
obviously I read this the other night
01:00:29
test yeah [ __ ]
01:00:32
I went through these the other night and
01:00:34
I remember like I sort of did a computer
01:00:36
I didn't really register that one yeah I
01:00:38
realized that it's like like his his
01:00:40
Auto creep got was wrong three times
01:00:45
um you're a dead [ __ ] yeah like they
01:00:47
like some of these are just I mean and
01:00:49
we're talking about um it was the
01:00:51
physical by the the difference about
01:00:53
this stuff like I can I can get about
01:00:55
the ones around South Island riff and go
01:00:58
back to Primary School that kind of
01:00:59
stuff like you get that normally like
01:01:01
you suck like in the language like yeah
01:01:03
that's fine but like there was the
01:01:04
physical the like people talking about
01:01:06
King hitting you on the street and stuff
01:01:07
like that yeah slitting your throat like
01:01:09
if I find you you know that that was and
01:01:12
I was never worried for my safety but
01:01:15
but you just never know right like even
01:01:16
you just never know
01:01:18
um yeah because I mean you're like
01:01:19
you're you're a smart guy and you're um
01:01:21
you're a reasonable guy and you're a
01:01:23
measured guy
01:01:24
um
01:01:25
I mean
01:01:27
everyone has a bad day or a day where
01:01:28
you're feeling a bit weak and a bit
01:01:30
vulnerable so you have a bad game you're
01:01:31
feeling a bit [ __ ] about yourself anyway
01:01:33
I don't know and then you read a barrage
01:01:35
of messages like this it could be
01:01:37
detrimental to someone's mental health I
01:01:40
know you can laugh it off but there's
01:01:41
got to become a point where it's yeah
01:01:42
well one day it will one day like
01:01:45
um and and I think that uh something
01:01:49
that we need to in like New Zealand
01:01:50
Rugby is very supportive around that
01:01:51
kind of stuff but I think we can do a
01:01:52
lot more especially with the referring
01:01:54
side because I think what we do at the
01:01:56
moment is we rely on the individuals to
01:01:57
be
01:01:58
strong-willed and and you know like to
01:02:01
have a
01:02:02
um you know to not have any mental
01:02:04
health issues but like that that won't
01:02:06
happen one day you know they'll be there
01:02:07
someday some something like that will
01:02:08
happen and it's only getting worse like
01:02:10
this stuff's getting worse I've seen it
01:02:11
slowly get worse over the last few years
01:02:13
on Twitter
01:02:15
um with games I've been involved in or
01:02:16
other games I've seen with Wayne Barnes
01:02:18
with with Nick beer you know like all
01:02:20
these things that are happening and it
01:02:22
is getting worse and and I I'm worried
01:02:24
and I think that's part of I mean that's
01:02:26
part of why I wanted I wanted people to
01:02:28
see
01:02:29
what it's like and actually what is
01:02:31
happening behind the scenes so you know
01:02:33
people see they ask us like do you even
01:02:34
train for games like we see you for 30
01:02:36
minutes what happens after well you know
01:02:39
it's a great we such a great job that I
01:02:41
had but I wanted people to see that this
01:02:43
is what we also put up with this is you
01:02:45
know mental health is a massive thing
01:02:47
um not just men but for everyone in New
01:02:49
Zealand at the moment as well
01:02:51
so I do feel a little bit of
01:02:52
responsibility with my my position in
01:02:54
New Zealand Rugby but also World rugby
01:02:56
to show a better leadership in this area
01:02:58
I think sometimes potentially what might
01:03:00
stop other referees doing it is that
01:03:01
they're worried about it may affect my
01:03:04
appointments
01:03:05
um it may affect the next game that I
01:03:07
get it may affect
01:03:09
um I have to if it's about a player I
01:03:10
might have to refree this player again
01:03:11
but I kind of while I care about all
01:03:14
that stuff and it's important that I do
01:03:15
I always think that the cream's gonna
01:03:17
rise to the Top If I'm good enough to do
01:03:18
a game or give you a game
01:03:19
but this sort of outweighs that kind of
01:03:22
surflight
01:03:23
um being able to so
01:03:24
I did think about it a lot like it
01:03:26
wasn't just a on a whim I'm just gonna
01:03:28
like release all these things I was I
01:03:31
was on a long flight from because the
01:03:33
day after Sunday I flew straight to
01:03:35
Toulouse so um I had a flight to Dubai
01:03:38
and I was sitting there like reviewing
01:03:40
my game
01:03:41
finished my review
01:03:42
and then I had a real think about you
01:03:44
know because it was all happening I had
01:03:46
a real think about okay like how do I
01:03:48
feel
01:03:48
what I want to do about this should I do
01:03:51
anything should I just leave it and I
01:03:53
was like you know what no I'm not going
01:03:54
to because I think this is actually this
01:03:56
a line has been crossed with the number
01:03:58
but also what was said and I'm going to
01:04:01
do something about it and I'm going to
01:04:03
pin a really well constructed message
01:04:05
note I'm gonna do it on my Instagram I'm
01:04:08
going to show people what it's like I'm
01:04:10
I'm gonna I'm gonna I made a point of
01:04:14
um by blurring out the person's name
01:04:16
like because it was the point wasn't
01:04:17
about naming shaming that person which
01:04:19
you can't you know people are usually
01:04:21
yeah you should be doing that but yeah I
01:04:23
I noticed that too and I respected that
01:04:25
it's not like you were highlighting
01:04:27
people so that people could then turn on
01:04:28
them yeah yeah and like I mean because I
01:04:31
know that I've sort of released a few
01:04:32
things I like before like on like my
01:04:34
stories and stuff but I just wanted
01:04:36
people to see that this is the stuff
01:04:37
that referees are getting after games
01:04:39
and this is what we're normalizing if I
01:04:42
don't see anything about it
01:04:44
um so yeah so I remember I remember
01:04:46
doing it
01:04:47
I had it ready I had the post saved and
01:04:51
I was sitting there and I was in I was
01:04:52
in transit and I had all my mates around
01:04:54
me because we're all flying off together
01:04:56
and I was like do I do it like am I am I
01:04:58
going to do this like what what what is
01:05:00
going to happen and I had no idea what
01:05:02
was going to happen What was
01:05:04
the outcome going to be could I be
01:05:06
canceled you know like could this
01:05:07
backfire so much on me that that could
01:05:10
be me done referring and I was like oh
01:05:13
it might be like I'm taking a massive
01:05:14
risk
01:05:16
um but I thought no this is this is an
01:05:17
angle where it's not about feeling sorry
01:05:19
for me this is about this is this is
01:05:21
happening and we need to do something
01:05:22
about it
01:05:24
um so I remember like walking I was on
01:05:25
the line catching my flight to Toulouse
01:05:27
and I was next to my mate
01:05:29
um I was like Paul
01:05:30
I'm about to drop something
01:05:34
and I'll win I'll win post and then I
01:05:37
got on my flight and then had no Wi-Fi
01:05:39
or anything so I just sat there
01:05:42
which was I don't I think it was night
01:05:44
time New Zealand time well I don't know
01:05:46
and then when I when I landed
01:05:49
um just that ping ping ping ping ping
01:05:50
ping ping the phone just went absolutely
01:05:53
ballistic and and it was it was really
01:05:56
nice there was a lot of there's a lot of
01:05:58
obviously people checking in they wanted
01:05:59
to make sure that first and foremost I
01:06:00
was okay and were you you were okay yeah
01:06:02
no I was totally fine and and and I I
01:06:05
liked how I felt then because I realized
01:06:07
that I'd almost got onto another level
01:06:08
of being accepting of of where I am in
01:06:11
the game and confident in my game and my
01:06:13
style and my Rugby because I wasn't
01:06:15
affected At All by it
01:06:17
um because I was confident in okay the
01:06:19
game the game that I delivered and
01:06:21
um so that was actually a nice feeling
01:06:23
to go through to realize do you never
01:06:25
know where you're at until you get to do
01:06:26
a stock take and that was my stock tank
01:06:28
so people were like from all across
01:06:31
rugby walks of life
01:06:34
um
01:06:35
um politicians
01:06:37
um a lot of really lovely people reached
01:06:39
out to me which was incredible
01:06:41
but the best people that reached out to
01:06:43
me and so it went from like for every
01:06:45
one message post game it was a nice
01:06:46
message to 20. negative messages that
01:06:49
you read out there yeah it flipped that
01:06:51
like I was still getting negative
01:06:52
messages but I was getting like like 30
01:06:54
messages to one you know it was just it
01:06:56
was incredible that um I guess the
01:06:58
support that came out and it wasn't
01:07:00
about getting support for me but for
01:07:01
referees and for the for what we do and
01:07:02
for realizing wow like that is crazy
01:07:06
and the best but the best
01:07:08
people that got in touch with me were
01:07:10
young referees and you know it still
01:07:12
happens now like yeah that's called
01:07:14
young referee will message me and say
01:07:15
Ben thank you thank you for what you did
01:07:18
thank you for standing up for me I was
01:07:21
about to give up on the game I got
01:07:22
abused last week by parents on the
01:07:24
sideline I'm 15 years old I don't want
01:07:26
to do this anymore
01:07:28
and you know but now you've given me
01:07:29
courage that okay it happens to the best
01:07:31
in the world and actually you you've
01:07:33
taken a stand for us like thank you so I
01:07:35
I received a lot of those types of
01:07:37
messages and and I thought you know what
01:07:39
I
01:07:40
that that is why I'm happy I did it you
01:07:42
know for those younger referees coming
01:07:44
through to show that like I I see you
01:07:46
guys I'm supporting you it happens with
01:07:48
me
01:07:49
um and I want to I want to show you that
01:07:51
it's not right and I'm actually doing
01:07:52
something for you guys in a position of
01:07:54
power and
01:07:55
um the position I have in referring so
01:07:57
um that was that was kind of
01:07:59
I sort of worked out why I did it after
01:08:01
I did it you know this is always yeah if
01:08:05
you follow your gut generally it's um oh
01:08:07
yes it's the right decision but um yeah
01:08:09
I don't know if someone like me that's I
01:08:10
enjoyed watching the game but I've got
01:08:11
no skin in the game either way I didn't
01:08:13
really care who who won or who lost
01:08:15
um I didn't even know your name to be
01:08:16
honest and I suppose that's the same
01:08:18
with most people with the referee as I
01:08:20
was saying before so if you don't want
01:08:21
that yeah but um I I found it alarming I
01:08:24
was quite alarmed by the messages and
01:08:26
just and and just the the Deep nastiness
01:08:29
of some of them as well I think there's
01:08:30
one willing willing you to get cancer
01:08:32
yeah it's like um
01:08:35
and you know so I had a few I don't
01:08:38
I don't have a lot of like a lot of my
01:08:40
Instagram stuff on my Social Media stuff
01:08:41
is rugby next I want people to see what
01:08:43
we do and our job there's a bit of
01:08:45
family and friends but I was really
01:08:47
worried because like a second to last
01:08:49
posted my sister and at night I message
01:08:51
her and untaggering it all and I was
01:08:53
like okay I hope you're not getting
01:08:55
anything and she she received one
01:08:57
message from Fiji apparently and she
01:08:59
said actually wasn't that bad but like I
01:09:01
can deal with it and and Through Time
01:09:03
experience I've been able to deal with
01:09:05
it but when like I'm worried for friends
01:09:09
family Partners when it's directed at
01:09:12
them
01:09:12
they haven't gone through they haven't
01:09:14
gone through the years of it or the
01:09:16
years of sort of slow
01:09:17
habitualization towards it so then you
01:09:20
know it comes to him straight away at
01:09:21
this level I can be really sort of sharp
01:09:25
um so I was really worried for like sort
01:09:27
of friends and family around that but um
01:09:28
they're all fine and yeah and what you
01:09:31
say you can deal with it and you can but
01:09:33
you shouldn't have to though I suppose
01:09:34
that's the that's the point
01:09:36
um have you always been like quite
01:09:37
resilient or is this just it's just this
01:09:39
like a calloused skin thing that you've
01:09:41
developed over years and years and years
01:09:43
I'm sure I don't know
01:09:44
um
01:09:46
I'm sure it's just been developed over
01:09:48
time like you sort of have to like you
01:09:50
get older and you're more mature now you
01:09:51
know you sort of you grow up a little
01:09:52
bit you go through life experiences
01:09:55
um and you you know you realize what is
01:09:57
important I think my medicine's helped
01:09:58
out a lot with that sort of through all
01:10:00
those experiences like you actually
01:10:01
really realize what you know the
01:10:03
important things that you should be
01:10:05
actually spending your mental strength
01:10:07
on yeah
01:10:08
um but but it's always hard you know
01:10:09
even I find myself slipping up every now
01:10:10
and then like it's hard to you know back
01:10:13
in the day you just had to like walk
01:10:14
past the new stand and not pick up a
01:10:15
newspaper we're now
01:10:17
um you know it's not as easy as saying
01:10:18
well why don't you just delete all
01:10:19
social media well we we live on it now
01:10:22
like it's how we I don't I I don't know
01:10:25
anyone's cell phone number anymore like
01:10:26
you message me yeah yeah Facebook so it
01:10:28
kind of feels like um like victim
01:10:30
blaming in a way doesn't it yeah a
01:10:32
little bit it would be easy to do that
01:10:34
but I'm such an avid golfer like my golf
01:10:36
swing would be terrible if I didn't go
01:10:38
through like all my golf videos every
01:10:40
video on Instagram you know my reels and
01:10:41
stuff and I wouldn't be able to send all
01:10:42
my mates all these memes I want to send
01:10:43
them so
01:10:44
it's um it's one of those things that
01:10:46
look uh you know you you take those
01:10:48
risks and then you sort of experience I
01:10:50
went through but um the the public yeah
01:10:52
this public support was amazing I did a
01:10:54
few interviews afterwards
01:10:55
um and this is probably almost the first
01:10:57
one talking in detail about it which is
01:10:59
pretty cool because a few weeks after
01:11:00
like things have settled down
01:11:03
um but it's really sort of changed I
01:11:05
guess the way I hope people see referees
01:11:07
in public and what we do
01:11:09
um and you know I spent I train with the
01:11:11
All Blacks last week and even seeing a
01:11:13
lot of the the Chiefs and the Crusaders
01:11:15
players in there you know it's good to
01:11:16
see them again and you know they're
01:11:17
super supportive of everything as well
01:11:18
and realizing that
01:11:20
um you know we're part of the game
01:11:22
um and you know we've got to be able to
01:11:24
keep the game the the sport that we love
01:11:25
in New Zealand then you know you need to
01:11:27
refreeze as well yeah did you get on
01:11:29
what the players well do you need to
01:11:31
sort of keep um like a boundary where
01:11:33
you can't be sort of mates with them you
01:11:34
know what I mean because I think like
01:11:36
because it blew the lines if you're too
01:11:37
friendly with them
01:11:39
I'm a lot older than rugby players now
01:11:41
you know you sort of you sort of when I
01:11:43
started they're older than me and you
01:11:45
you come through like a professional
01:11:47
rugby players what is it what is it now
01:11:49
like 20s yeah 20s you know so I'm 34 you
01:11:51
know I'm like Grandad compared to these
01:11:53
guys now so you just you have a
01:11:54
professional relationship you know so
01:11:56
whether you obviously keep that on the
01:11:57
field before the game after the game if
01:11:59
you bumped into them like if you're at a
01:12:01
restaurant or something like quick chat
01:12:03
yeah maybe maybe or you just you know
01:12:05
blow the whistle at them show them the
01:12:07
card or you just get on with with your
01:12:09
meal and stuff so
01:12:10
um yeah it's the same thing if you often
01:12:12
stand in the same hotels as players but
01:12:14
um what I love about rugby is is every
01:12:17
player is is really respectful on and
01:12:20
off the field and you know that's that's
01:12:22
what's the Fantastic thing around sort
01:12:24
of being in the sport is
01:12:26
um you know they're really interested in
01:12:27
what you're doing
01:12:28
um and really interested in getting to
01:12:30
know you like it is you know they'll
01:12:31
spend time and I think a lot of the all
01:12:33
backs like that a lot of players around
01:12:34
the world like that every player what
01:12:36
What's um I know you said you worked
01:12:38
with the Hurricanes this year Dane Coles
01:12:40
seems really really pretty he's one like
01:12:42
it he's the best guy ever cozy
01:12:46
um I'm a hurricane if I support any team
01:12:48
it's the hurricane I was living in
01:12:50
Palmerston North when Super Rugby
01:12:51
started summer hurricane supporter but I
01:12:53
I I yeah I just love how niggly he is he
01:12:56
he I love how niggly is but he's
01:12:58
everyone goes I mean how do you along
01:12:59
with Coles you're like surely he's a
01:13:00
pain in the ass right he is the best guy
01:13:02
ever to deal with him is he in what way
01:13:04
well so he is he's a competitor and he's
01:13:07
niggly on the field to players you know
01:13:09
he like niggled Cody Taylor like um when
01:13:11
they when they played the in the
01:13:12
Crusaders game a few weeks ago and you
01:13:14
know I love that you know he's just that
01:13:16
that sort of dynamic nature and he's
01:13:17
obviously incredible player and so I
01:13:19
love that so like he'll go niggle
01:13:21
someone and then smile at you and like
01:13:22
I'm like mate you didn't do it you
01:13:24
didn't do anything illegal so I can't do
01:13:25
anything about it and like we've had
01:13:26
Runnings before we've had to Yellow Card
01:13:28
him and like he's pointed at my yellow
01:13:30
card like what is that for and uh you
01:13:31
know he was just saying that he wanted a
01:13:32
little bit of fun I was like mate not
01:13:33
tonight
01:13:34
got off the field so he's he's a great
01:13:38
he's a great player and you know you get
01:13:40
a lot of that I think we need more of
01:13:41
that you know it's such a professional
01:13:42
game everyone's got there
01:13:44
um you know recovery garments on and
01:13:46
they sort of you know leave the field
01:13:48
and they go up and the bus where he I
01:13:50
think you know he enjoys rugby he loves
01:13:52
it and um you know argue you know
01:13:54
playing some of his best rugby right now
01:13:55
any any other good memorable back chat
01:13:57
moments from you or the players like the
01:14:00
the Cozy one you just said I I try not
01:14:02
to like I love to get I engage with
01:14:05
players but I try to not I can even so
01:14:08
when I when I grew up refereeing you'd
01:14:10
always try and take bits of other
01:14:11
referees that you watched
01:14:13
um so the positioning of like a Glenn
01:14:15
Jackson or the game awareness of a Craig
01:14:17
Joubert or the technical skills of a
01:14:19
Bryce launch you know you try and put
01:14:20
them into your game
01:14:21
the one line is from Nigel Owens
01:14:23
although being the funny guy is
01:14:25
everything I realized early on when I
01:14:26
was young I'm not a funny funny guy so
01:14:28
just just keep that like don't keep that
01:14:30
like just don't do it and so leave that
01:14:32
to leave that to Nigel
01:14:34
um so I don't try and I don't try and do
01:14:35
it but it's hard like you hear a lot of
01:14:37
stuff and I mean I can't really pick up
01:14:39
anything now but guys like like Joe
01:14:40
Marla
01:14:41
um he's an English prop is just just
01:14:44
like I'm trying to set a scrum and
01:14:45
Crouch behind to see it and he's talking
01:14:47
about what he's having for dinner that
01:14:48
night and the red wine that he's
01:14:49
drinking and I'm trying out talking I'm
01:14:51
trying to get through my binder set cool
01:14:52
and I'm about to crack up and I'm miked
01:14:54
up he's not miked up so they can't hear
01:14:56
him okay you know they'd hear me if I if
01:14:58
I stuff the scrum call up but um I think
01:15:01
the game of rugby needs characters yeah
01:15:03
like all these players that we have
01:15:05
um and I think we still do you know
01:15:06
we've got excellent players but I think
01:15:07
you need new guys that are sort of um
01:15:09
you know leading the way and having fun
01:15:11
as well yeah geez I realize we've talked
01:15:13
for an hour and a quarter how are you
01:15:14
doing for time you've got a niece's
01:15:15
birthday to be my it was my happy
01:15:17
birthday no it's my my nephew's birthday
01:15:19
but um no no
01:15:22
I got so many um like fan questions or
01:15:25
listening questions okay um do referees
01:15:27
have fans or groupies
01:15:29
any any ladies
01:15:32
no no
01:15:34
um
01:15:35
you got to think yeah you gotta think so
01:15:37
there's there's 30 players on the field
01:15:42
um plus the squad right so the other big
01:15:44
guys the big muscles the the nice
01:15:45
haircuts so they'll be going through
01:15:48
their DMS first slightly into the game
01:15:49
and then and then there's probably like
01:15:51
some good looking Silver Fox coaches
01:15:53
that you know that maybe they started
01:15:54
those teams and then there's us the
01:15:56
referees at the bottom so I don't think
01:15:58
we don't trickle down to to that far
01:16:00
yeah yeah
01:16:02
um I need to need to build it up for the
01:16:04
referees out there have you ever been
01:16:06
badly by the way what is your
01:16:07
relationship status in case anyone's
01:16:09
listening to this and they're like I
01:16:10
might um some nice single and like that
01:16:12
I mean because it's hard you know when
01:16:14
you're when you're traveling
01:16:15
um all the time overseas you know you
01:16:17
never really home so uh that's uh that's
01:16:20
always the niggly part so that's the one
01:16:22
great thing around I think a lot of the
01:16:24
um the referees they've got amazing
01:16:25
husbands wives
01:16:27
um who you know like uh just incredible
01:16:29
when we're away and
01:16:31
um yeah I think it's a difficult role
01:16:32
sometimes for that but when you're home
01:16:34
you're home and you have a great life at
01:16:35
home
01:16:36
um you know probably catching up on all
01:16:37
the school drop-offs and stuff like that
01:16:38
so
01:16:39
um yeah there's the is the status but no
01:16:41
please don't slide into my DMs around
01:16:42
that have you ever been badly injured or
01:16:45
accidentally tackled by a player no
01:16:49
um I mean I've seen a lot of referees
01:16:50
that have but it's kind of like yeah you
01:16:52
said before like about the Falcon thing
01:16:53
does this mean you're in the wrong
01:16:54
position or yes I work hard in my
01:16:56
positioning not for that to happen
01:16:57
there's there's times where you're close
01:16:59
and you sort of suck everything in and
01:17:00
you try and get out of the way
01:17:01
um but no touchwood so far I've got a
01:17:03
game next week in Scotland
01:17:05
um I have not been uh knocked over yet
01:17:07
but um I laugh every time every three
01:17:09
does uh do you get nervous before a big
01:17:12
game or all the time yeah yeah but I
01:17:14
love that what does that look like I I
01:17:16
think I saw a Dan Carter clip once and
01:17:18
he talked about vomiting before most of
01:17:19
the all black games yes I don't have any
01:17:20
like any physical sort of manifestations
01:17:22
but um I
01:17:25
it's it's all it's all just it's
01:17:29
the nervous excitement so like if I'm if
01:17:31
I'm nervous for a game it means that I'm
01:17:33
prepared I'm ready I'm excited and I
01:17:34
care and I know that if I prepared
01:17:36
really well for the game
01:17:38
um
01:17:39
then I'm confident so all I need to be
01:17:41
is confident walking out of that field
01:17:43
and just what will we will be I've
01:17:44
prepared well no matter what happens in
01:17:46
the field I can deal with it
01:17:48
so then like I know I'll do a lot like I
01:17:50
could talk to Gilbert and I could be
01:17:51
brought up before around that and I do a
01:17:52
lot of my um front loading in the week
01:17:54
around all the prep but I'm doing
01:17:55
physical mental prep so about by Friday
01:17:58
I'm pretty good to go and Saturday I
01:17:59
don't even think about the game I'm I'm
01:18:01
ready to get down to the field and it
01:18:03
keeps my my mind free
01:18:05
um so that's like that for yeah so so
01:18:08
for me that's that's a that's a big part
01:18:10
of how
01:18:12
um you know I'll I'll lead into I guess
01:18:14
I saw that side of it um which I think
01:18:17
which I think is important yeah it's
01:18:19
funny how the parallels between what you
01:18:20
what you do and what the players do as
01:18:22
well in terms of like the build up the
01:18:23
preparation and then the game itself and
01:18:25
then the you know the post-mortem or
01:18:27
post analysis that's pretty similar we
01:18:29
just do it
01:18:30
um at a different level not as many
01:18:32
players
01:18:33
um and you know the preparation's
01:18:35
slightly different like we've got a
01:18:36
little bit more autonomy around or how
01:18:38
we do it so we don't have to be on the
01:18:39
bus this time we never have to have
01:18:40
training at this time we can actually
01:18:42
decide like we want we're going to do
01:18:44
we've got to do the gym at some stage
01:18:46
today we'll do it now and then we'll go
01:18:48
and do something else after and we'll
01:18:49
you know we'll do some do it like that
01:18:50
so it's really good when you get to
01:18:52
travel and you get to sort of stay with
01:18:53
you know
01:18:54
um your friends and and your other
01:18:56
referees overseas you get to sort of
01:18:57
sort of manage with that which is really
01:18:59
really good yeah can you ever hear any
01:19:00
abuse from the stands no never no no
01:19:03
because you like it you see like you've
01:19:04
got someone and you've got to do yeah
01:19:05
right right so that that is blocked
01:19:07
you've got your assistant referring your
01:19:08
TMO talking into your ear the whole time
01:19:10
and then
01:19:12
um the uh the system referees on the
01:19:15
sideline like in Christchurch you're
01:19:17
really close to the to the um fans and
01:19:20
and Hamilton really close to the fan so
01:19:21
you hear it you hear it then
01:19:24
um so you sort of hear a lot of the
01:19:25
abuse there but in the middle uh you
01:19:27
know everything's great so it's like
01:19:28
ignorance Bliss again it's perfect is
01:19:30
match fixing a thing in rugby no no
01:19:32
you've never been like approached no
01:19:35
one's ever asked you I thought that's
01:19:36
sort of an Indian thing mainly with
01:19:37
Cricket isn't it I think uh yeah like
01:19:39
it's football I know that like football
01:19:41
and I've talked to a lot of umpires
01:19:43
um I still get you know New Zealand
01:19:45
umpire around that um and it definitely
01:19:47
happens and they've got a lot of
01:19:48
structures in place that have something
01:19:49
like that occurs and they
01:19:52
um you know obviously go through the
01:19:53
sort of anti-corruption process but
01:19:56
um I mean Rugby's big enough like
01:19:58
there's a lot of money involved in rugby
01:20:00
I'm surprised that it hasn't happened
01:20:01
yet
01:20:03
um and uh look I mean
01:20:06
it's got to happen at some stage right
01:20:08
you know it'll be a lot of just no gold
01:20:09
watch I'm wearing so there's a lot of
01:20:11
chiefs fans will be calling [ __ ] on
01:20:12
this ad so he was definitely paid well
01:20:15
it's like I'm still waiting for that
01:20:16
money so that obviously wasn't like the
01:20:18
metaphor scene didn't really work out
01:20:19
that well because I haven't been paid
01:20:20
for it yet yeah yeah
01:20:21
um have you ever lost your call with the
01:20:23
player yeah have you yeah I have and and
01:20:25
I'm not proud of that like it's
01:20:28
I mean it happened happened a few weeks
01:20:29
ago in a Highlanders game with the
01:20:31
captain and you know you sort of
01:20:33
I sort of you know so I always like to
01:20:35
engage I'm never dismissive I want to be
01:20:37
being being on the field you know like
01:20:38
I'm I'm this happy guy that you know I
01:20:40
can always you can always chat with me
01:20:42
but there's a moment where I went in the
01:20:44
red and I had a massive guy at this
01:20:45
Captain around sort of approaching me
01:20:47
and
01:20:48
um I thought he was out of line but you
01:20:50
know when I reviewed it I was just man
01:20:52
that came across so bad like I didn't
01:20:54
need to do that
01:20:55
um you lit your I lit my emotions what
01:20:57
did you do exactly oh look well I didn't
01:20:59
like it was just I basically just gave
01:21:00
them a telling off you know like a big
01:21:02
school teacher finger in the face and
01:21:04
it's so not me it's not my style but I I
01:21:06
realized like I was I was annoyed about
01:21:09
a decision that we'd made as a team 10
01:21:10
minutes earlier and this is the whole
01:21:12
thing around don't let things snowball
01:21:14
um I was I was really frustrated about
01:21:16
that decision I saw briefing the game I
01:21:18
was getting over it in my head but that
01:21:20
led me to still be in the red so then
01:21:22
when I got challenged and I was Fragile
01:21:23
by this by this Captain probably just
01:21:25
doing his role I lit loose on them eh
01:21:28
yeah like The Compound Effect yeah and
01:21:29
it did and so I reviewed the game and I
01:21:31
reviewed that instance in a cringe when
01:21:33
I listened to it so I have all the
01:21:35
angles I've got all the audio and and I
01:21:37
send an email obviously to the coach
01:21:38
about I was like look I'm not proud of
01:21:40
that that was that was the wrong moment
01:21:41
to ever do that I don't even want to be
01:21:42
able to do that and and but you've got
01:21:44
to watch that because I've got to be
01:21:46
able to see it
01:21:47
to know that that's not me I never want
01:21:49
to be like I don't want to do that in my
01:21:50
game next week I don't want to do that
01:21:51
in the world cup so next time it happens
01:21:53
just just come take a moment geez you
01:21:57
had on yourself hey you hold yourself to
01:21:58
a very high standard I think you've got
01:22:00
you've got to you've got to because like
01:22:02
you you are held to a high standard in
01:22:04
the gamma rugby like you're you're
01:22:05
criticized live you criticized post game
01:22:07
so the only way that you can do it is if
01:22:09
you can see yourself getting better if
01:22:11
you can see yourself learning and
01:22:12
developing if you if I was just
01:22:14
plateauing and just staying the same
01:22:16
level the whole time then I'd give up
01:22:18
I'd stop you know I always with anything
01:22:19
I'm doing you've got to progress you've
01:22:22
got to be seeing
01:22:24
um you know that you're moving forward
01:22:25
moving out moving towards the light
01:22:26
around you know getting better and
01:22:28
that's what I've always I've always done
01:22:30
in my life anything I've ever done in my
01:22:32
career but especially rugby so
01:22:34
um in rugby that comes out as being hard
01:22:38
on yourself but really it's just being
01:22:39
critical and being honest because if
01:22:42
you're not honest and you hide away from
01:22:43
a bad decision that you make well
01:22:45
you'll make it again in another game so
01:22:48
that's why I'm always like okay be be
01:22:50
more critical than you probably need to
01:22:51
be with yourself and then that'll mean
01:22:54
that you're fine-tuned to the next game
01:22:56
fine tune for next game and you'll go
01:22:58
into the World Cup at the top of your
01:23:00
game throw any decision at me you need
01:23:02
any test match I'll refer you really
01:23:03
well and the World Cup will be over you
01:23:06
know I can't wait I like that yeah
01:23:07
because yeah failure and mistake's good
01:23:09
but you do have to learn from them yeah
01:23:11
otherwise that's uh yeah it's a
01:23:13
never-ending cycle uh do you do you
01:23:16
apologize to a player if you get it
01:23:17
wrong and give them a red or yellow card
01:23:18
yeah actually you mentioned just before
01:23:20
you you reached out to the coach and
01:23:21
apologize for that yeah I was really I
01:23:23
was really I apologize
01:23:26
um for the Morocco curability reader
01:23:28
card and talk to Dave Rooney about it
01:23:29
was the Australian coach and
01:23:31
um and and like what we talked about
01:23:33
startup podcast I I said I I admit I was
01:23:36
wrong I realized the effect that this
01:23:38
has on players and like I'm just sorry
01:23:40
about it and this is what I've done to
01:23:42
to get better
01:23:43
um and so and and while like do we admit
01:23:46
things in the game like probably not in
01:23:47
the game because we're actually not
01:23:48
we're not sure
01:23:50
um so if someone comes and says look you
01:23:51
missed their knock on there you might be
01:23:52
like well yeah I might have like I'm
01:23:54
sorry well from my point of view this is
01:23:55
this is what I saw so a lot a lot of
01:23:58
that doesn't come until after the game
01:23:59
but I think it's important you're going
01:24:00
with your hand up and
01:24:02
um it's amazing I think it's quite easy
01:24:05
to be defensive as a referee you can be
01:24:06
defensive because you don't want to be
01:24:08
seen to be making errors because if you
01:24:10
are making areas you might not get
01:24:11
picked for the next game like someone
01:24:13
else might not
01:24:14
select you so you try and hide it behind
01:24:16
those eras
01:24:17
and if you'll if you're like that then
01:24:19
eventually you found out so what's the
01:24:21
point yeah and also you're human so I
01:24:23
think showing some vulnerability and
01:24:25
admitting you're wrong is a it's a very
01:24:27
powerful thing so it's fine yeah it's
01:24:28
fine balances yeah like you can't keep
01:24:30
it and you're wrong you're wrong you're
01:24:31
wrong yeah
01:24:36
um any games that stand out because a
01:24:38
controversial decision you made change
01:24:40
the outcome
01:24:43
um the fact you have to even think about
01:24:45
that it says no like I've made I've made
01:24:47
controversial decisions but I wouldn't
01:24:49
well yeah I mean I I guess I talked
01:24:51
about that
01:24:52
um like Crusaders waratah's game where
01:24:54
we missed that that um trial that
01:24:55
shouldn't have been a try that yeah
01:24:56
scored
01:24:58
um because of the foul play on Curley
01:24:59
Bill like so you never know like what
01:25:02
would have happened in the next second
01:25:03
half but that was a critical era and
01:25:06
that led to a different outcome in the
01:25:07
game so that was that was pretty massive
01:25:09
and a huge learning for me that I um I
01:25:12
worked with my TMR about but like no
01:25:14
like I reckon a lot of my other like
01:25:16
there's always controversy
01:25:18
um I mean who knows like they're
01:25:21
probably yeah you never know like you
01:25:22
make a different decision
01:25:25
um it's uh yeah yeah hypotheticals you
01:25:27
know there's a what a flow on effect of
01:25:30
a different outcome would have always
01:25:31
happened so
01:25:33
um I I want the answer for that to be no
01:25:34
I don't think the answer is no but I
01:25:37
hope that the answer in the future is no
01:25:38
that's what I'm always trying to I like
01:25:40
that that's a good answer
01:25:42
um are there weird laws and rules that
01:25:44
most people wouldn't know about actually
01:25:45
there must be you talk before about the
01:25:47
size of the rule book yeah some random
01:25:49
rules like you can there's a rule that
01:25:51
if if you're you know you score when you
01:25:53
go and score a try you'll be in the end
01:25:54
goal right like you got to hold the ball
01:25:55
and you've got to be able to be in and
01:25:57
not out and then be able to push the
01:25:58
ball down but there's one law that if
01:26:00
you are standing if you're lying on your
01:26:03
stomach outside of the field of play so
01:26:06
you're out and the ball's in goal you
01:26:09
can actually scroll try so you can score
01:26:10
A Try by being out you've got to be
01:26:11
lying on your stomach yeah
01:26:14
that your belly button's got to be
01:26:15
touching grass so we've got to review
01:26:17
that has has that ever happened it has
01:26:19
it has it's like maybe only once or
01:26:21
twice in the history but I just want
01:26:24
people to change that rule so it isn't a
01:26:25
rule anymore because like you think of
01:26:27
all these these these random these
01:26:29
really weird rules like another one is
01:26:30
that like it's all around the outlaw
01:26:33
actually like you can be running out you
01:26:34
can be out of the field of play but if
01:26:36
the balls in the field of play but it
01:26:38
hasn't crossed the plane of the
01:26:39
touchline you can tap it and it's still
01:26:41
play on so you can imagine you know
01:26:43
you're so if you were watching game
01:26:44
rugby you didn't know the rules are
01:26:45
rugby at all and you saw a guy out hit
01:26:48
the ball one two feet out of the field
01:26:50
of play you're like he's out and then
01:26:52
touchy keeps his flag down and it's play
01:26:54
on like it's just another random rule
01:26:55
yeah bizarre so there's there's a few of
01:26:57
them
01:26:58
um
01:26:59
and you know a lot of other rules that
01:27:00
we sort of we don't really make them up
01:27:02
but you know we just go through and just
01:27:04
try and make a game out of it but yeah
01:27:05
random stuff I think they should change
01:27:07
it but
01:27:08
um we we have some impact with the
01:27:10
lawmakers um we have referees are part
01:27:12
of those committees now and I've been on
01:27:14
there for a few times
01:27:15
um so I think I see the game's in a good
01:27:17
space right now
01:27:18
um there's there's some tweaks I think
01:27:19
which you can definitely make in the
01:27:20
future yeah do you have a favorite or
01:27:22
lucky whistle I do yeah do you know what
01:27:24
I'm saying Acme thunderer so these are
01:27:26
the whistles this is the brand of the
01:27:28
whistle right and Acme thunderer and um
01:27:31
I've got a matte black one so it's matte
01:27:33
black and it's got a gold silver Fern on
01:27:35
it you get engraved and then I've got
01:27:36
like I said before trust and enjoy and
01:27:38
I've got another sign I've got a second
01:27:38
one so I've got a backup whistle and
01:27:40
honest got attitude determines attitude
01:27:42
that's sort of my Mantra is that I sort
01:27:43
of what is that attitude determines how
01:27:45
to change I've always had that as a kid
01:27:48
um so I always always have a spare
01:27:50
whistle on the sideline and because I
01:27:53
have everyone every referee
01:27:55
um this is getting into real referee
01:27:56
nerd stuff now has like where's their
01:27:58
whistle differently some have it on a
01:28:00
wristband on a lanyard some have it like
01:28:03
in their hand on a lanyard I have it on
01:28:05
an elastic tape on my two like what is
01:28:08
that your index and your middle finger
01:28:10
um no you're ring in your middle finger
01:28:12
and so so when I if I ever fall down or
01:28:15
I put my hand on the ground most
01:28:16
referees whistle will just fall off them
01:28:18
but my my whistle goes into the ground
01:28:20
so often it gets quite muddy or like so
01:28:21
when you go and blow it so I've done
01:28:23
that a few times where I've gone to blow
01:28:24
couldn't blow the whistle
01:28:26
but luckily I always have on the
01:28:28
sidelines so I give them to quickly run
01:28:29
it on for me but what we're at it we're
01:28:31
at a test match in France last year in
01:28:33
Angus Gardner who's a well-known
01:28:35
um on the top Aussie and international
01:28:37
referees in the world
01:28:38
he sort of fell over and his whistle
01:28:40
stopped working
01:28:41
and he started blowing and I was like
01:28:42
mate I was on the touchline I could hear
01:28:44
I was on the side and I could hear that
01:28:45
it wasn't working I'm like mate you're
01:28:47
going to get another whistle and he goes
01:28:48
I don't have my whistle I don't have a
01:28:49
sphere whistle so you don't have a speed
01:28:50
whistle so I gave him my whistle
01:28:53
and then ran back and um got one of the
01:28:55
other guys to get his other his other
01:28:56
spear on but it was one of my proudest
01:28:58
moments is that I got to see him referee
01:29:00
a game and like he made three or four
01:29:02
decisions with my whistle I was like
01:29:03
mate like how good is that you know
01:29:05
that's what I'm gonna do we shouldn't be
01:29:06
sharing that I need to wash it
01:29:07
afterwards yeah this is post covert
01:29:08
though was it I said to master the game
01:29:09
like mate you've refereed 30 40 test
01:29:11
matches that you've never had to
01:29:12
Fearless on the sideline he's like no
01:29:13
mate I don't but now he does he
01:29:16
referring to all black game last weekend
01:29:17
and I saw that he had the level on the
01:29:19
sideline from that so so yes we do have
01:29:20
a favorite whistle because every Acme
01:29:22
thunderer they sound different so I've
01:29:25
just I've just had I've just had this
01:29:26
whistle and it just sounds so good I
01:29:28
mean when I have to use my spear on it
01:29:29
just you just don't get that same impact
01:29:31
yeah all right I'll look at you nerding
01:29:33
out of it oh we love a whistle we love
01:29:34
it good how many how many tests have you
01:29:36
done do you know the number I do I only
01:29:38
know the number because I don't really
01:29:40
keep stats money no number because
01:29:42
New Zealand Rugby gave me a midi for it
01:29:45
which uh like they give it for they sort
01:29:47
of they tried to for players that do 100
01:29:49
games they sort of tried to work out
01:29:51
what the equivalent
01:29:53
referee like what are the equivalent
01:29:55
number for a referee is and I didn't
01:29:56
know what this number was but because
01:29:58
you know players do they probably do
01:30:01
I mean they might do nine ten test
01:30:03
matches a year so you can get to the 100
01:30:05
like within about 10 days where we we
01:30:07
probably only do three or four a year if
01:30:09
if you're lucky right so the number for
01:30:11
for us to be able to get that is 35.
01:30:14
um so I know my I know that because I
01:30:15
did my 35th I guess I got my midi um a
01:30:18
few months ago I went to MIDI middle um
01:30:20
so maybe like a um greenstone okay I'm
01:30:23
carving like a midi okay oh gotcha
01:30:25
awesome yeah wow that was awesome so
01:30:26
there was a prisoners at New Zealand
01:30:27
Rugby and everyone everyone was like um
01:30:30
35 games like why that's a random number
01:30:33
but that's sort of the number that
01:30:34
because there's only ever been one other
01:30:36
person that's done more than me um which
01:30:38
is poor owners which I think is he's
01:30:40
done 43 you know so he just shows that
01:30:42
actually the life cycle of a referee you
01:30:45
actually don't last that long you don't
01:30:46
really do a lot of a lot of test matches
01:30:48
so I've done 35 I'll
01:30:51
um
01:30:52
no so 36 was last weekend in Pretoria
01:30:55
South Africa Australia 37 38 I've got
01:30:57
two in Scotland 39 40 41 at the World
01:31:00
Cup and then anything happens after that
01:31:02
maybe 42 43 so I might end the year on
01:31:05
43. which would be pretty cool and are
01:31:07
you the only kiwi riffing at the World
01:31:09
Cup no we've got a great we've got a
01:31:10
great Squad so all our professional
01:31:11
referees are going to the World Cup in
01:31:12
some capacity we've got Paul Williams
01:31:14
who's another referee going he'll be a
01:31:15
second World Cup as a referee Brendan
01:31:17
pickerel who's going as a TMO so
01:31:19
television match official and he's
01:31:21
actually going to be my
01:31:22
private TMO like we were really really
01:31:24
good mates and we've come through the
01:31:25
grades together we all the processes and
01:31:27
stuff and how we read the game and how
01:31:29
we riff of the game is really really
01:31:30
similar so knowing that he's going to be
01:31:32
upstairs and probably the most important
01:31:34
job now in the TMO outside the referee
01:31:36
having my back is really awesome so
01:31:38
we're going to be well aligned and then
01:31:41
James dolman is going to go to his first
01:31:42
World Cup as assistant referee and and
01:31:44
to be honest like all four of us could
01:31:46
have gone in a referee capacity there's
01:31:48
no there's no difference in terms of
01:31:49
one's a referee one's a TMO one's an AR
01:31:52
um you know we've had a good group for a
01:31:54
few years now and probably unfortunately
01:31:55
created a bit of a bottleneck for anyone
01:31:57
else coming through at the moment
01:31:58
because they're still quite young but
01:32:00
you know we're all referring
01:32:00
International test matches and you go
01:32:02
through Ebbs and flows around life
01:32:04
cycles of like what are the leading
01:32:06
nations of referees so
01:32:09
um you know back when Patty O'Brien
01:32:11
Colin Hawk these are older New Zealand
01:32:13
refers you know they were like the guns
01:32:15
back in the day and then I went through
01:32:16
like the South Africans were really
01:32:18
really strong for a long time with Andre
01:32:20
Watson and you know tapa Henning and
01:32:22
then you know Craig Craig Joubert and
01:32:25
then um I reckon we're moving into the
01:32:27
uh well we had like the English refreeze
01:32:29
they're extremely strong and then yeah I
01:32:30
think you know we're coming into our
01:32:31
zone now where the kiwifery is going to
01:32:33
lead the way and and I think you know
01:32:35
we're we're lucky I think the Super
01:32:36
Rugby competition is lucky that they
01:32:38
have you know a high you know us
01:32:41
experience referees as well as
01:32:42
Australian guys doing doing the comps
01:32:44
and I think that leads it only bodes
01:32:45
well for the All Blacks because if
01:32:48
you're getting refereed constantly to a
01:32:49
high standard at Super Rugby level then
01:32:51
hopefully that will transition easily
01:32:52
into into test matches yeah oh how good
01:32:56
what's going to be good to see you on um
01:32:57
on screen and hopefully New Zealand gets
01:32:59
in behind you and the other referees I
01:33:01
mean essentially you know you're a new
01:33:03
zealanders that we should be proud of
01:33:04
like you're representing the country in
01:33:06
this International Tournament and I
01:33:08
think that's that's pretty cool and
01:33:09
hopefully you guys get this sort of
01:33:10
respect and acknowledgment that you do
01:33:12
deserve I think we do you know um we
01:33:14
definitely we feel that from from
01:33:15
players coaches and and generally The
01:33:18
Wider public you know like um they do
01:33:19
love the game well we don't we we don't
01:33:21
need to be recognized or known we just
01:33:23
want to be part of the game and then
01:33:24
sort of just like blend into the
01:33:26
background but it is a real honor and
01:33:28
like a privilege for us to we feel like
01:33:29
we are visiting New Zealand so not many
01:33:31
new zealanders like
01:33:33
not many new zealanders will hope like
01:33:35
know me outside of Super Rugby because I
01:33:37
don't really get to refer the All Blacks
01:33:38
I have done the All Blacks during covert
01:33:39
which was really rare but they'll never
01:33:42
really see me refreading all that counts
01:33:43
oh is that like a rule they they try and
01:33:45
keep it neutral yeah you can't referee
01:33:47
your own country right um but in
01:33:48
covertly because of travel we got to so
01:33:51
yeah
01:33:51
um you know there's only about three or
01:33:53
four referees that have ever done that
01:33:54
which um which is pretty crazy wow so do
01:33:56
you know do you do you have like a
01:33:57
schedule do you know what games you'll
01:33:59
be doing or is it sort of decided during
01:34:00
the tournament at the World Cup yeah
01:34:01
yeah we do know I think they're going to
01:34:03
get released
01:34:04
um maybe maybe in a few weeks but um
01:34:06
I've got yeah the host nation in one
01:34:07
game I got a mess probably one of the
01:34:09
biggest pool games as well
01:34:11
um and then a really really big game um
01:34:13
at the end you know depending on where
01:34:14
both teams sit so I probably can't like
01:34:16
to say right right now what they are but
01:34:19
um
01:34:19
uh yeah it's going to be it's going to
01:34:21
be pretty exciting and and you know too
01:34:23
we as I said like we represent we feel
01:34:24
like we are representing New Zealand so
01:34:25
even though we're wearing a world rugby
01:34:27
logo another Jersey I think a few of us
01:34:30
I think um one of the other referees
01:34:31
like Wiz has sort of silver Fern skins
01:34:34
underneath you know because he's proud
01:34:35
of being a kiwi you know out there and
01:34:38
um you know sort of doing our thing at
01:34:40
three in the morning in New Zealand time
01:34:41
but you know we were from some of the
01:34:42
biggest test matches in the world
01:34:43
overseas
01:34:44
um as well and have you enjoyed the um
01:34:47
the little bit of media attention you've
01:34:49
been getting lately I've seen you on a
01:34:50
few things including the am show with
01:34:51
your brother yeah I love that that was a
01:34:53
nice moment I loved it yeah um yeah so
01:34:55
my brothers I've been hosting the am
01:34:57
show
01:34:58
um and you know I've sort of followed
01:34:59
his career um as he's come
01:35:01
um did his Sports and you know
01:35:04
broadcasting degree overseas and in the
01:35:06
United States and obviously you know he
01:35:08
was a footballer went to the Olympics
01:35:09
you know so he was awesome and then you
01:35:12
know came back to New Zealand and
01:35:13
started working for sky sport news Hub
01:35:15
and then um yeah the am showing so he
01:35:18
always wanted to sort of get me on on
01:35:20
mainly because of leading into the World
01:35:22
Cup then everything happened with all
01:35:23
the media stuff they thought like this
01:35:25
would be a great time to be able to do
01:35:26
it and yeah I was pretty nervous going
01:35:28
in and oh yeah well I just I just think
01:35:30
what like I shouldn't have been but I
01:35:33
was just it was exciting it was that
01:35:35
nervous exciting yeah
01:35:36
but to see how he operated in the
01:35:39
background I've never been able to do
01:35:41
that I see what he's doing on TV and
01:35:42
like super proud of what he's what he's
01:35:44
done and
01:35:45
um you know we've got a younger sisters
01:35:46
around like obviously really proud like
01:35:47
we're really tired as as siblings I'm so
01:35:50
proud of what about what both of they do
01:35:51
what both of them do and um but in the
01:35:54
background like seeing him do his thing
01:35:55
and sort of I was there like it was a
01:35:57
really I'm sure a unique opportunity to
01:35:59
get a brother
01:36:00
um to do that on here and um yeah he
01:36:02
just rocked it and it was a lot of fun
01:36:04
we had a bit of a laugh and he might
01:36:05
have made a comment about your sister's
01:36:07
birthday
01:36:20
she called into the show after I stayed
01:36:23
to watch the just the end of it and she
01:36:25
called in like Michael was definitely
01:36:26
tearing up when he was reading reading
01:36:28
that so like it was it was a cool little
01:36:29
family that'll be one thing that you
01:36:31
know we'll grow up and we'll look back
01:36:32
on and be like how cool how cool was
01:36:34
that you know that we were in a position
01:36:35
where we could do that but um so I I
01:36:37
enjoyed that I I don't like the media I
01:36:40
don't I don't I don't strive to to put
01:36:42
myself out there to be a media Mogul you
01:36:45
know but I I thought there was the
01:36:46
responsibility thing I feel like I need
01:36:48
to
01:36:49
um out of out of anyone I guess even in
01:36:52
general maybe I'm sort of the leader
01:36:53
there and and the world and World rugby
01:36:56
um I do have that responsibility to try
01:36:58
and get out there and if people want to
01:37:00
hear opinions from a referee I'll give
01:37:01
it
01:37:02
um and I'll do it in a really
01:37:04
respected well-structured way
01:37:07
um if people want to hear answers about
01:37:08
something I don't mind being the one
01:37:09
that gives that
01:37:10
um and also putting my hand up when I'm
01:37:13
wrong I think people want to be able to
01:37:14
see that and and I do have I guess the
01:37:16
platform to be able to do it at the
01:37:17
moment
01:37:18
so I won't I won't Chase it but when
01:37:20
people was like when people ask me to do
01:37:21
anything that's for the good of the game
01:37:23
yeah I'll say yes yeah well I'm really
01:37:25
pleased that I'm pleased that you agreed
01:37:27
to come here today to come on the
01:37:28
podcast but I'm also pleased that you um
01:37:30
have um shine a light on like the abuse
01:37:32
that referees are subjected to because
01:37:34
it's not acceptable and um we need to
01:37:37
know what's going on because otherwise
01:37:38
most of us are blissfully unaware yeah
01:37:40
and that's that's all I want to do
01:37:41
around it is just sort of show that show
01:37:43
that this is this is what's happening
01:37:45
um and a lot of people like I can't
01:37:46
believe that there's what you get
01:37:48
um yeah well we get that after every
01:37:51
game yeah not to that extent but that's
01:37:52
exactly what happens and and I'm worried
01:37:55
that that this this will cup is going to
01:37:57
be such a massive World Cup it's going
01:37:58
to be so amazing you know like it's
01:37:59
going to be the most competitive World
01:38:00
Cup we've ever had
01:38:02
um we're at a we're at like a point
01:38:04
where like media is going to explode
01:38:06
there's Netflix TV series on everyone on
01:38:09
everything you know there's all these
01:38:10
like background things happening that
01:38:12
I'm worried like there's going to be
01:38:13
like this we've got to be careful as
01:38:15
referees
01:38:16
um that you know we look after each
01:38:18
other and um you know we look after each
01:38:20
other during the games and after the
01:38:22
games and to stick together because we
01:38:24
want to make sure that you know we are
01:38:26
we are safe in that environment which
01:38:27
gives us it's just got it's got like
01:38:29
Time Bomb like written all over it you
01:38:31
know in terms of what can happen yeah is
01:38:33
is the um yeah do you have security and
01:38:35
stuff is that sort of what you mean like
01:38:37
you're well watching each other so we
01:38:38
don't yeah and I know like like teams do
01:38:41
um because we normally traveling like
01:38:42
ones and twos
01:38:44
but not that not that I've seen us need
01:38:46
it yet but I think it's going that way
01:38:49
you know so I mean they are empty
01:38:51
threats but they are still three I mean
01:38:53
you could argue that any threat should
01:38:54
be taken seriously all you need is just
01:38:56
someone that is like really like drunk
01:38:58
or just really feels passionate about it
01:39:00
and they just see you in that street
01:39:02
and like I haven't I haven't heard a lot
01:39:04
about it every free so far but I'd say
01:39:05
we referee a game at the World Cup so
01:39:07
we're all taking trains to all our games
01:39:08
you know so we travel on a train just
01:39:10
the way that we're going to do it we'll
01:39:11
Cup in France
01:39:13
um you do it you do a massive game it's
01:39:15
controversial
01:39:16
you're on the train station afterwards
01:39:17
like with your team because you're
01:39:18
wearing your tracksuit you've got to
01:39:19
wear your tracksuit
01:39:20
and like you know the guys have been
01:39:22
pissing up at the the game the whole day
01:39:24
and then they come and hit you up about
01:39:25
something and you know it's hard like
01:39:28
there'll be some of us that will buy
01:39:30
back and like we don't have to bite back
01:39:31
like you just want to avoid all those
01:39:32
types of situations so
01:39:35
um we don't know if we don't have
01:39:36
security we have Security on the games
01:39:37
actually
01:39:39
um often when you come off a game
01:39:42
the security guards like you get a real
01:39:44
barometer of like how well you refereed
01:39:45
so normally you just walk off the game
01:39:46
and people boom and cheer doesn't
01:39:48
doesn't matter but you walk off and you
01:39:50
walk off by yourself but sometimes when
01:39:52
you walk off a game that you haven't
01:39:53
refreed well the security guard walks to
01:39:55
you and escort and escorts you off but I
01:39:58
remember like referring a few games and
01:39:59
thinking seeing the security guard come
01:40:01
to me like those are that bad that's
01:40:04
sort of like covering you from uh people
01:40:06
flying bottles it's actually something I
01:40:09
reckon you know you saw that and this is
01:40:11
part of the bottom the post that I made
01:40:13
um was about the Europa Football League
01:40:15
that was walking through the airport and
01:40:17
got cheers thrown at him and his wife
01:40:18
that's happening in football you know so
01:40:21
we're not that far removed from from
01:40:23
that um in these big big high stakes
01:40:25
games with these outcomes that we're in
01:40:27
control of
01:40:28
um so yeah it's a that whole public eye
01:40:30
thing um definitely definitely want to
01:40:32
try and avoid and for those reasons yeah
01:40:34
and it's the sorry I feel like I was
01:40:37
wrapping up and now we're sort of
01:40:38
getting back into it but is the duty of
01:40:40
care good like are you offered
01:40:41
um like a zero is there a psychologist
01:40:43
or a therapist or yeah so it is it is
01:40:46
really good um through New Zealand Rugby
01:40:47
yeah um we've got we've got um you know
01:40:50
obviously programs that work with us we
01:40:52
work quite closely with the sports
01:40:53
psychologist
01:40:55
um who we've got a really good
01:40:56
relationship with so there's that and
01:40:57
and you know family is really important
01:40:59
too so yeah you've got to have you've
01:41:00
got to have your family around you as
01:41:01
well so um there's all of that I I still
01:41:03
think though we can keep like I think I
01:41:06
mentioned this we can get better like we
01:41:07
can get the structures better yeah in
01:41:08
place I feel like we we often play
01:41:11
catch-up we're
01:41:13
um outside of men mainly probably at
01:41:15
World rugby we need to set it up so that
01:41:17
we're really
01:41:18
and prepared before it happened so that
01:41:20
when it happens
01:41:21
all the Motions start falling in place
01:41:22
and and we pull the trigger on it so and
01:41:25
we're probably not there right now but
01:41:28
we had examples of that over over years
01:41:30
and big test matches where
01:41:32
um you know it's sort of Gone Gone Wrong
01:41:34
um but touchwood we're only at the
01:41:36
school cup but um
01:41:38
okay and um last one what will a
01:41:40
successful World Cup look like to you
01:41:42
for me
01:41:44
um do you like say New Zealand's not on
01:41:46
the final and two other teams are do you
01:41:49
aspire to uh like refer World Cup final
01:41:52
so like I I for me that's not
01:41:55
immeasurable for what I want to I would
01:41:57
say a success to me of course like I'd
01:41:58
love to do a World Cup final
01:42:00
um I feel like I'm in a position where
01:42:01
I'm good enough and it can do a really
01:42:03
good job of it
01:42:04
um but I would actually love it was it
01:42:07
was me or the All Blacks in the final I
01:42:09
want to be having a beer in the stadium
01:42:10
with a hot dog watching it all blacks on
01:42:12
the final because I remember what it was
01:42:13
like when they won the finals and I was
01:42:14
in New Zealand because like I'm in a
01:42:15
rugby sport I'm an all-black fan so I
01:42:17
want to feel that again and I that's
01:42:19
that's more important for me I think you
01:42:21
know some referees probably want finals
01:42:22
you know like it used to be like that
01:42:24
and I remember feeling on that when I
01:42:25
was way back like doing Club rugby you
01:42:27
know you wanted to do that Colts final
01:42:28
because it's really important that club
01:42:30
rugby final because it's really
01:42:31
important to get up the grades to be
01:42:32
noticed
01:42:33
after the last World Cup I was really
01:42:36
like I didn't know how I was going to
01:42:37
feel and I remember I referee Japan
01:42:39
versus Scotland and I went really well I
01:42:41
refereed the game really well as my last
01:42:43
game and a weight came off my shoulders
01:42:45
I felt like I'm satisfied I'm I'm at
01:42:48
peace with my career as a rugby referee
01:42:50
so it's almost like anything now it's
01:42:51
just a bonus so success for me at this
01:42:53
world cup is is go to a hell of a good
01:42:55
job at the three games that I that I'm
01:42:57
I've got on pool and pool in the pool
01:42:59
play um when I'm in a system referee
01:43:01
I've got three games support the guy in
01:43:02
the middle as much as I can
01:43:04
be an amazing team player um and have a
01:43:07
lot of fun outside of like at during the
01:43:08
World Cup and then like I would love to
01:43:11
I would love I would love to be able to
01:43:12
do a playoff game whether that's a
01:43:13
quarter final or semi-final or a final
01:43:16
not not because I want to see my name
01:43:18
next to that final but I want like it's
01:43:20
a new challenge you know I talked about
01:43:21
always trying to go forward like I've
01:43:22
never done a playoff game in a World Cup
01:43:24
I've done massive World Cup games but
01:43:26
it's it's that experience like I I
01:43:28
hunger for the challenge of like am I
01:43:30
good enough you know I believe I'm good
01:43:32
enough at least go out there and look
01:43:34
like this deliver but I also think that
01:43:35
like in those games they're the biggest
01:43:37
games in the world you need some of the
01:43:38
best referees and I think that I've
01:43:40
worked so hard at my craft that I'm in
01:43:42
such a good position now with the
01:43:43
experience and all my learnings that I
01:43:46
can really really do a good job for
01:43:48
their quarterfinal for those players for
01:43:49
coaches for the people watching
01:43:52
um for that semi-final the same thing
01:43:53
for the final you know so
01:43:55
um that's success for me and and we will
01:43:57
I'll be flying back
01:43:59
um
01:44:00
with my other my other mates from the
01:44:02
World Cup going like [ __ ] what a crazy
01:44:04
time you know it would be just a roller
01:44:06
coaster but hope we can just a bit of
01:44:08
champagne cheers and go like we did a
01:44:09
great job yeah and champagne before
01:44:11
takeoff too because he flies business
01:44:13
class
01:44:15
that is a nice little perk of uh of uh
01:44:18
World rugby thank you Lord rugby for
01:44:20
sorting that into our contracts a
01:44:21
smaller smaller cabin so less people to
01:44:23
abuse you oh yeah and like you can just
01:44:25
put the partitions
01:44:27
no Wi-fi all right hey uh Dr Ben O'Keefe
01:44:31
um thanks so much for coming on the
01:44:32
podcast today good luck at the World Cup
01:44:35
um and just know that the the abuse the
01:44:38
torrent of abuse you had after the Super
01:44:39
Rugby final that's not even one percent
01:44:41
of the country and 99 of us think you're
01:44:43
doing a great job
01:44:45
um we're rooting for you and we're just
01:44:47
proud of you as new zealanders yeah
01:44:48
thanks Tom really really appreciate it
01:44:49
was awesome talking to you and I think
01:44:51
um yeah reinforcing that message
01:44:53
um yeah it does make a difference for
01:44:55
all of us you know not just myself so
01:44:56
cheers
01:45:00
oh
01:45:01
[Music]