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She Is Not Your Rehab: Matt Brown on Breaking the Cycle of Domestic Violence

August 31, 2025 / 01:40:56

This episode features Matt Brown discussing his experiences with childhood trauma, family violence, and his journey towards healing. Key topics include emotional literacy, the impact of domestic violence, and the importance of community support. Matt shares personal stories about his upbringing in a violent household, his relationship with his parents, and the challenges he faced growing up.

Matt recounts being stripped naked as a child for laughter, highlighting the trauma he endured. He also discusses the moment he chose to speak up about his experiences at the age of 15, facing backlash from his community. The conversation touches on his mother's struggles and the dynamics of his family, including the loss of his mother to cancer.

Throughout the episode, Matt emphasizes the importance of emotional regulation and the need for men to embrace vulnerability. He shares insights on how his experiences shaped his approach to fatherhood and his work in domestic violence prevention. The episode also covers his book, "She Is Not Your Rehab," which aims to help others understand and break the cycle of trauma.

Listeners gain a deeper understanding of Matt's mission to promote healing and emotional awareness, as well as the significance of creating safe spaces for men to share their stories. The episode concludes with Matt encouraging others to use their privilege to support those in need.

TL;DR

Matt Brown shares his journey of overcoming childhood trauma and advocating for emotional literacy and healing in communities affected by domestic violence.

Video

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When we watched Once We Warriors growing

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up, we thought that was a comedy. We

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would compare Week's black eyes to mom's

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black eyes. Oh, mom's black eyes are way

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bigger than Biff's. Like, I know like

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dad's way crazier than Jake the Mus

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because he was derogatory, abusive

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behavior was just a constant part of my

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childhood. Um, one of my experiences of

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childhood trauma was being stripped

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naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked

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at because of how my body looked.

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Whenever cousins and family members came

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around, if they wanted a good laugh, my

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mom would just yell out to my siblings,

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"Go get Matt, come in, strip them naked,

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and just laugh. Laugh at me and my

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genitals."

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The push back I got from my community

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speaking up at 15 was massive. Bro,

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don't talk about this, bro. You're

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bringing dishonor to our families,

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especially your parents. So, it was

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either speak up or take my own life. My

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mom held a machete to my neck. And she

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said, "You're not leaving." And I said,

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"Well, mom, either you kill me now or

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I'm going." And then her arm just

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dropped and she just cried. And I think

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she she she cried because she knew she

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felt that she had failed.

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>> Had she failed?

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No one's asked me that.

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How do you reflect on her life?

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[Music]

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Sad.

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[Music]

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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is

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the center of performance. Whenever

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there's a top performance in New

00:01:23

Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

00:01:25

Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

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for days. That's the boys who got the

00:01:29

hole in one in

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it again. Hey Finn, how's the

00:01:34

performance going?

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>> Top tier.

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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In

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here, you'll find our top performers

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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

00:01:41

investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.

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Generate. Putting performance first.

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Matt Brown, welcome to my podcast.

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>> Thank you, brother. Thank you for having

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me. Massive fan.

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>> Actually,

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>> honestly, I followed you for years and I

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always seen your guests and I just

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think, man, be cool to be on that guy's

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podcast one day.

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>> Oh, man. I was so pleased we connected.

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This isn't um your first time in in the

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studio here. Uh because you've been in

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here to record a couple of your own

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podcasts.

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>> Um

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>> Yeah. And I've just been in awe of

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having you having you in here because um

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I don't know you you just have this um

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this calm about you like this this this

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presence like you're the coolest guy in

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any room you go into but you you don't

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even need to speak or do anything. You

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just sit there and you've got this

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presence about you. It's hard to hard to

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explain.

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>> No, thank you bro. I try I try I try and

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be the quietest guy in the room.

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>> Yeah. Are you are you introverted or shy

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or is it just because you know you um

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your wife Sarah like she's she sort of

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does the speaking. She's a ball of

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energy. Um, no. Yeah, I'm a I'm a real

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introvert, so I like my own space and I

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just I'm comfortable being quiet. Like,

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I don't need to try and impress anyone

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or say anything to fill in the gaps. I

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like quietness. So,

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>> I think it takes quite a lot of

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self-confidence to be like that, like to

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not have to be, you know,

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>> I think I'm just I'm comfortable in my

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own skin. Um, I know who I am and that's

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taking years and years of work obviously

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to come to that place. And I still I

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still find myself finding myself, you

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know, it's it's a journey. Yeah. Not a

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destination.

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>> How old are you now?

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>> 39, brother.

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>> Yeah, mate. I'm 52. It's it's ongoing

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all the time and there there's always

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work to do. Uh always self-improvement,

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you know. There's always room to be

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better. It's cool. It's an exciting part

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of the journey of life.

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>> 100%.

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>> Yeah. So, I got this book off um Mighty

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Ape over the weekend.

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>> A

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>> She is not your rehab, which is

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phenomenal.

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I've not given you a book. I've come in

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here a few times. I've never given you

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one.

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>> Sorry, bro.

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>> I know. We were looking around for it

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the other day. I said, I'm sure Matt

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left a book here, but I

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>> I'm pretty sure I did the first time I

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got here. But

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>> yeah,

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>> there's this um this children's book.

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This is This is not yours to carry,

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which I've seen all over uh Instagram

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over the weekend. This is brand new.

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>> Yes, we just launched it this week here

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in Tamaki Makoto. to our brand new

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children's book which is targeted at um

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children u mainly for those who are

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living in homes of violence but really

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it's targeted at any child who wants to

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learn how to regulate their emotions

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>> and your your daughter um Oshana she did

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the uh the illustrations

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>> yes our oldest girl illustrated this

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whole book with her mom and writing so

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this was a labor of love many nights of

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work downstairs drawing my wife um not

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happy with some sketches and then she

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going back to the drawing board um so it

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was definitely a labor of love She

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thought it was just going to be a few

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pictures and it ended up turning into a

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children's book. So,

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>> mate, it's um it's a beautiful book.

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>> Thank you, brother.

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>> Excuse me. And I'm sure it's going to be

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a great resource as well.

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>> How can people get hold of it?

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>> Uh they can jump onto our website she is

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knowhab.com and um it's up there

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available. You can actually go on there

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and donate a book. So, we're working

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alongside many organizations, schools,

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refugees to try and get this book into

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the hands of children who actually need

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it. So, if you can go on our website and

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click on the donate button, we can get

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those books out. So, um you're Ocean

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Oceana's dad, but not her biological um

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father. So, she she she came as part of

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the relationship. How old is she now?

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>> She is 22 years old.

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>> Is she the one that that was not allowed

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any sleepovers?

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>> No.

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>> Never last. Well, none of our kids have

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allowed sleepovers. We got two younger

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ones who are age 10 and seven. And so we

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always tell our oldest girl, you make

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sure you tell your little siblings how

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how the go is because yeah, I think

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look, working in this sector, working in

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this field of family violence, sexual

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abuse, trauma, um we see it more often

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than we we don't want to, you know, um

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the the harm that happens behind closed

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doors. And it always comes from

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unfortunately people that we know,

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family members, friends of the family.

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And so my children they're not allowed

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sleepovers.

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>> So

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>> I mean, who really needs a sleepover

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anyway?

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you can go hang out your friends, but

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when you when it's time to close your

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eyes, you can come back home and close

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your eyes.

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>> Yeah, that's a that's a good point. I um

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yeah, I heard that over the weekend on a

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couple of podcasts you you've been in

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and it um it made me really upset

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actually that it's that it's that rife

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>> and I suppose this is this is like part

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of my privilege where it's just not it's

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not something that was um sort of on my

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radar at all growing up. It's it's

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heartbreaking, mate.

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>> It is heartbreaking. I mean, my wife's

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got a a good friend who's a GP and she

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comes across stories like this all the

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time. And she said to us, you know, if

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you if you removed um sleepovers, you

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would remove about 80% of the cases that

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she has to deal with of sexual abuse

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when it comes to sexual assault.

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>> So,

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>> it's alarming. It's alarming. And and

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yeah, in one of these podcasts, I heard

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you you say like it's it's not even if

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you know the the nuclear family in the

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house, you don't know what visitors

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they're going to have in the house as

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well.

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Yeah.

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>> And then you involve alcohol, substance,

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you know, in the house. You just never

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know.

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>> Yeah.

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>> I mean, we went to pick up my daughter

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who was who went to a friend's party.

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She was in high school

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>> 16 and she refused to come to the car.

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Um, but we checked in with her parents

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and the mom invited us. Lovely. As she

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said, you come in for a drink. We're

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just having a few G&Ts. Um, but then I

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seen all these other people in the

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house. You know, it was a party and I

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was like, well, I said, where's the

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girls? Where's the kids? And she said,

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oh, they're somewhere in the back. I'm

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okay. The fact you don't know where the

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kids are right now in the situation

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while everyone's drinking um is a red

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flag to me.

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>> Yeah. And and you've got a very good

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reason to be this protective and h have

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um these red flags. Um yeah, there's a

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there's a lot to talk about. Um but I'm

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also aware of the fact that you've done

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a lot of podcasts. So you you talking

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about the old stuff and the old the old

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wounds. Is it is it hard for you to talk

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about or

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>> No. Um cuz I mean it's part of my story.

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It's not to me it's not so much

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re-triggering or retraumatizing myself

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because it is what it is and I

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continuously do the work um to navigate

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those my story but I also have amazing

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supervisors and counselors and

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therapists who I have on hand if I need

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to offload and let some steam off.

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>> Okay. Yeah. Let's go back to your

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childhood. So earliest memories.

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>> Earliest memories um growing up in my

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household. I mean the first thing that

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comes to my mind is violence, chaos. Um,

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my first experience of family violence

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in my household was Christmas that I

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have a viv vivid memory of. My father

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and mother got into some argument. I

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don't remember what the argument was.

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And then all I remember was this

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Christmas tree, our Christmas tree,

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which only had a few lights on it, a few

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balls, colorful balls. Um, was lifted up

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in the air and then tossed at my mother.

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And then I remember my mom lying on the

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ground in tears. and my two older

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brothers um who are not much older than

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me um jumped on mom and covered her from

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our father. Um so that was my first me

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of of violence. Um my happiest memories

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of my childhood was would probably just

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playing with my my brothers, my

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siblings, you know, just like every

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other Kiwi family, Polynesian family,

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rugby, rugby league. Um but violence was

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the constant memory right throughout my

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childhood.

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>> Like what sort of frequency? every if

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not every every day, every other day. Um

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we would often be at women's refuge. I

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had visited every woman's refuge home in

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Christ Church where we grew up in. I was

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born here in Oakuckland, but yeah,

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raised in Christ Church. Um you know, at

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all our rugby games, my old man would be

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standing on the sideline with his big

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trench coat holding his can of beer. Um

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Foster was the the the brand that he

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always drank.

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>> Oh, the Australian one.

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>> Yeah, the Australian one with the big F.

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The blue can with the big F. Um, and

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it'll just be, you know, colorful

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language, verbal abuse, um, at the

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referee, at us. One try was never good

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enough. Um, two tries was never good

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enough. Um, so just, yeah, derogatory,

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abusive behavior was just a constant

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part of my childhood. And honestly, like

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me and my siblings now, we sit in a in a

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table and we talk like how did we all

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not end up, you know, incarcerated?

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growing up in the childhood that we grew

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up in the environment that we grew up

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like it's sometimes we sit there and

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laugh and our partners and our wives are

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are looking at us like dumbfounded like

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how do you guys find this funny

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>> and we're just like well it's either we

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laugh about or we just sit here and cry

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but we've done many years of crying you

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know and wallowing in our pain and

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trauma and we just got to this point

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where no longer are we going to be a

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victim of our story. this is not going

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to ever define us but is what we do with

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this pain and how we transform this

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>> um to move us forward.

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>> Yes. So it's a big family. So um let me

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know if I've got this right. So there's

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like five boys and four girls from a

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previous

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>> So three girls from a previous

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relationship um on mom's side.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Um I had another sister, younger sister,

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but we lost her um at birth. So, nine of

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us all up, but five of us um fullblooded

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brothers living in the same household.

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>> Where were you in the birth order?

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>> I'm the middle I'm number three out of

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the boys.

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>> So, that middle child syndrome

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>> I kind of had waving around my head

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growing up.

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>> Yeah. You know, I wondered that cuz I

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wondered if you were the eldest in the

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family because um you know, you just

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have these real sort of leadership

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qualities.

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>> Thank you. No, not that.

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>> Um what about your four four brothers?

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How how are they? Are they they all

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good?

00:11:04

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we're all very

00:11:06

connected. Um, we lost my mom 4 years

00:11:08

ago to cancer, which was probably the

00:11:10

hardest time for all of us. Um, cuz she

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was the gel, the glue that put us all

00:11:14

together. Um, but after losing mom, it

00:11:17

really, we were really confronted to

00:11:19

have these hard, we've always had hard

00:11:21

conversations in our family. Like every

00:11:22

Christmas, we'll come together and have,

00:11:23

you know, tears and, you know, moping

00:11:27

around just about our upbringing and how

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mom dad could be better, especially our

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father, you know, wanting him to be

00:11:32

better. But nothing ever really changed

00:11:34

until we lost mom. We kind of got back

00:11:36

together and said, "Man, we need to

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really heal together as a family

00:11:39

because, you know, we don't want to be

00:11:42

passing the anger and the the violence

00:11:44

and not so much physical violence

00:11:45

anymore. It's more verbal stuff. You

00:11:47

know, the overreaction or the

00:11:49

dysregulation that we would often see

00:11:51

when we were together. I think just that

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trauma knowing that this was so normal,

00:11:55

you know, us getting upset or just one

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sibling saying one thing that will set

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off another sibling, that violence and

00:12:00

chaos was just so normal for us that we

00:12:01

just had to really um nail it on the

00:12:04

head and confront it. And so it's been

00:12:05

beautiful. We're all in good places. Um

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my baby brother was in the NRL. He just

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retired recently. Um

00:12:14

>> what team?

00:12:15

>> He's played for a few teams. He played

00:12:16

for He started off at the Sharks. uh won

00:12:19

a premiership with them. Then went over

00:12:21

to the doggies. Then went over to the

00:12:24

roost. No, not the roosters. St. George.

00:12:27

Um and then I think where did he finish?

00:12:29

I can't remember where he finished.

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>> Unreal. What's his name?

00:12:32

>> Final Brown.

00:12:33

>> Incredible.

00:12:33

>> Yeah. So he played for the Kiwis in

00:12:34

Samour. He's in the tour Samour team for

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the World Cup that came second.

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>> So

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>> how how is it that you all turned out so

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like well adjusted, you know, happy and

00:12:45

healthy?

00:12:47

I think I mean we I mean I will give

00:12:49

credit I only can speak for myself. Um I

00:12:52

give credit to the people in my life. I

00:12:54

think uh I've had beautiful superheroes

00:12:57

who have come along my life and and

00:12:59

really shown me empathy and compassion

00:13:01

for my environment cuz I've been

00:13:02

speaking up about my story of family

00:13:04

violence and you know suicide ideation

00:13:07

since I was 15.

00:13:09

>> You know 39 years old now. I look back

00:13:11

and I think, man, like the the slack,

00:13:14

the push back I got from my community

00:13:15

speaking up at 15 was massive. You know,

00:13:18

bro, don't talk about this [ __ ] This

00:13:20

happens to all of us, especially in our

00:13:21

Polynesian community. All my island boys

00:13:23

were saying, bro, you're bringing

00:13:24

dishonor to our families, especially

00:13:26

your parents. Like, we don't talk about

00:13:27

this stuff. It's happening to us, too,

00:13:29

but don't talk about it. So, it was

00:13:31

either speak up or take my own life. I

00:13:34

chose to speak speak up, and I'm I'm

00:13:37

glad I did. I'm glad I did and do

00:13:39

because I've learned that my story is

00:13:42

not unique.

00:13:43

>> Yeah, I'm glad you did too. Not just

00:13:45

because you're still here, but because

00:13:46

you've made such a profound impact as

00:13:48

thousands of other people as well.

00:13:49

>> Thank you, bro.

00:13:51

>> Were there any glimpses of joy in your

00:13:53

childhood?

00:13:54

>> Honestly, the only times of joy was

00:13:58

probably with my siblings. There were

00:13:59

moments of joy of seeing mom and dad

00:14:01

happy. um you know after a Friday where

00:14:04

dad will you know start when he'll pick

00:14:06

up his first can but we knew it wouldn't

00:14:08

be too long after that um where a fight

00:14:11

would break out. Um so there were like

00:14:14

glimpses of joy but it would all it

00:14:16

would soon be overthrown with chaos and

00:14:19

violence and fighting

00:14:21

>> for you and your brothers as well or was

00:14:22

it mainly your mom that was the the

00:14:25

target of his anger?

00:14:26

>> All of us but mainly mom. Yeah,

00:14:29

>> mainly mom and mom would try and often

00:14:31

protect us, you know, she'll step in.

00:14:33

Um, especially for my older siblings and

00:14:35

for me just watching and witnessing, you

00:14:37

know, the violence that was happening,

00:14:38

mom would always step in and when mom

00:14:40

would step in, then she would get the

00:14:41

brunt of it.

00:14:42

>> Was it always alcohol fueled?

00:14:44

>> Yeah, always alcohol.

00:14:52

Yeah. I mean, um, your mom even made

00:14:54

jokes that alcohol was his second wife

00:14:57

or Was that the joke?

00:14:59

>> Yeah.

00:14:59

>> Yeah. But it's like it's not it's not

00:15:01

funny at all. And it seems like it would

00:15:02

have been such an easy fix, right?

00:15:05

>> I mean, I get it. Like I mean on this

00:15:07

journey of of healing and and and

00:15:09

forgiving my old man, you know, I don't

00:15:11

want to paint my father as this monster

00:15:13

because when you understand

00:15:14

intergenerational trauma, you know, he

00:15:17

came from the islands with little to no,

00:15:19

you couldn't speak English, little to no

00:15:21

education, came in the 60s, lived

00:15:24

through the dawn raids, racism, was

00:15:26

running strife obviously, but you know,

00:15:27

we needed the islanders to work here in

00:15:29

this country.

00:15:30

>> Um, and so my father had his own

00:15:31

struggles and so his only outlet and

00:15:34

release was alcohol. you know, and I'd

00:15:36

always ask the question, well, these

00:15:37

other islanders that are not drinking,

00:15:39

you know, why couldn't you be one of

00:15:40

those islanders? But obviously, for

00:15:42

whatever reason, my father chose to pick

00:15:43

up the drink, and this became his,

00:15:46

>> quote for quote, his second wife.

00:15:48

>> Yeah.

00:15:49

>> What are your recollections as a as a

00:15:51

young fellow of woman's refuge?

00:15:53

>> Cold. Um, and the funny thing, even

00:15:56

though there was no violence, like we

00:15:58

were there, it was a safe home to get us

00:16:00

away from the chaos, we were so used to

00:16:03

the violence, we wanted to go back. like

00:16:04

it's it wasn't home. Like these sheets

00:16:06

that we were sleeping in that were

00:16:08

neatly folded, our beds were well done,

00:16:10

but it's it didn't feel like home. I

00:16:13

think we were just so accustomed to the

00:16:14

chaos that we wanted to go back home.

00:16:17

Even if dad was there, we wanted to go

00:16:18

back home. And that cycle just carried

00:16:20

on.

00:16:20

>> Yeah. Cuz chaos was just your normal.

00:16:22

Yeah. What about your relationship with

00:16:24

police?

00:16:26

>> Didn't like the police at all.

00:16:28

>> Yeah.

00:16:28

>> Um especially cuz I mean my recollection

00:16:30

was when they would come over. now

00:16:33

understand that they were trying to

00:16:34

protect mom and us, but it was just the

00:16:35

way that they, you know, placed their

00:16:37

hands on our dad. You know, they were

00:16:39

aggressive to dad. Um, and and now I

00:16:41

look back now, well, why wouldn't you?

00:16:43

Because my dad was, every time the

00:16:44

police came, it would be him cursing at

00:16:46

the police, telling him to f off. Um,

00:16:49

but yeah, we just didn't like them.

00:16:52

>> It's an interesting insight. I I asked

00:16:54

that and I asked that about Women's

00:16:54

Refuge as well, cuz I wondered if like

00:16:56

as soon as you get to Women's Refuge,

00:16:57

it's just like, you know, I can breathe

00:16:59

now. Or when the police arrive, you're

00:17:01

like, "Oh, thank God. the chaos is going

00:17:02

to end. But

00:17:04

>> yeah.

00:17:04

>> Yeah. Well, when the police we my mom

00:17:06

would often ring pretend to ring the

00:17:08

police to try and

00:17:11

calm my father down. So whenever he seen

00:17:13

my mom, you know, pick up the phone,

00:17:15

say, "I'm going to ring the police now

00:17:16

and pretend to dial 111," my dad would

00:17:19

just chill out. And so often she

00:17:20

wouldn't ring the police. So we we knew

00:17:23

that it was really really bad when the

00:17:25

police would show up, you know, but

00:17:27

often mom would just use the police as a

00:17:28

way to calm him down.

00:17:30

>> Yeah. And what did your childhood teach

00:17:33

you about love?

00:17:35

>> It taught me that chaos and violence and

00:17:38

love can all coexist.

00:17:41

[Music]

00:17:45

>> When when you look back now um like as a

00:17:49

man,

00:17:51

are you pissed off at your community at

00:17:52

all? like you know your neighbors um

00:17:55

church congregation teachers or whatever

00:17:57

like that there was no one there to save

00:17:59

this little boy.

00:18:01

>> Yep.

00:18:03

Yep. When I when I sit I have these

00:18:06

conversations with my brother and this

00:18:07

is I don't really talk often about this.

00:18:09

I don't think I've ever talked about

00:18:10

this publicly but 100%. I think you guys

00:18:16

knew the violence that was happening. I

00:18:17

remember going to church um in one

00:18:20

church hall. It was a Catholic church we

00:18:22

attended which is just down the road

00:18:24

from where we lived. And I remember um

00:18:27

the whole congregation came out running

00:18:29

and screaming and people were in tears

00:18:32

and there were a bunch of ladies um

00:18:35

covering this one lady and as this one

00:18:37

lady who came out who was obviously

00:18:39

hovered by these other women she looked

00:18:41

up and it was my mom you know just blood

00:18:43

coming down her face and I just stood

00:18:45

there like oh you know it didn't even

00:18:48

wasn't in tears but I was just like this

00:18:49

is now happening here at church. I would

00:18:52

have been about six or seven. But I just

00:18:54

remember we just went back home. We went

00:18:56

back home with our old man. Mom and dad

00:18:58

got into an argument over there and I

00:18:59

don't know what happened.

00:19:02

But um I remember my auntie telling us

00:19:03

kids to come into the church and as we

00:19:05

walked in and I just remember seeing

00:19:07

blood all over the the walls.

00:19:11

But in an hour's time we were back home.

00:19:13

We were back home with mom and dad, you

00:19:14

know, and the fighting carried on. Then

00:19:16

the police came over that night. Um,

00:19:19

but I just thought, wouldn't any of you

00:19:21

guys come over with us? But no one was

00:19:23

there, you know. Wouldn't one of you

00:19:24

guys have taken us home with you or, you

00:19:26

know, do something? Stepped in,

00:19:28

separated my mom and dad, but no, we

00:19:30

were just back at home. So, am I pissed

00:19:32

off at my community back then? Of

00:19:34

course. Um, I'm pissed off at people who

00:19:37

hear the violence in our communities,

00:19:38

but refuse to say anything or step in,

00:19:41

you know, because those children who are

00:19:43

living in those homes are our children.

00:19:45

you know, those children become men who

00:19:49

perpetrate violence, who perpetrate

00:19:51

crime on our streets. They're children

00:19:53

who are doing ram raids, um, stealing,

00:19:56

all those things. It affects all of us.

00:19:58

And so, me personally, how you I'm still

00:20:02

pissed off at those people.

00:20:03

>> Why do you think no one intervened?

00:20:05

>> Shame, culturally, you know, the stigma

00:20:08

around it, you know, out of out of mind,

00:20:11

out of sight, out of sight, out of mind.

00:20:13

But the thing that was in sight, you

00:20:15

know, but y'all just chose to ignore it.

00:20:18

Um, and the cost of that are now men

00:20:23

who are angry. I mean, I I use my anger

00:20:26

for good and try and channel and do the

00:20:28

work that we're doing. You know, I am

00:20:30

angry, but I'm using it for good. There

00:20:32

are other many men out that I work with

00:20:34

around this country, around the world,

00:20:35

who are so angry, they're not channeling

00:20:37

it for good. If anything, that's been

00:20:39

now transmitted onto their partners and

00:20:41

children whom they claim to love.

00:20:46

Did did your dad sort of wear a mask at

00:20:48

all and they like he saved his worst

00:20:50

behavior for the family like in the

00:20:51

confines of your house or

00:20:53

>> 100%.

00:20:53

>> Yeah.

00:20:54

>> 100%. I mean a lot of our culture I mean

00:20:57

not just specifically our culture but in

00:21:00

many cultures it's all about face. It's

00:21:02

how you portray yourself in front of

00:21:04

society in front of your workmates in

00:21:06

front of your colleagues. But there are

00:21:08

many hurting men, hurting children,

00:21:10

hurting boys underneath these grown as

00:21:12

men who are just bleeding all over women

00:21:15

and children who never cut them. My

00:21:17

father was one of those, you know, in in

00:21:19

church. He was this, you know,

00:21:20

uprighteous man who

00:21:23

remained sober on Sundays. Um, but from

00:21:26

Monday to Saturday was chaos.

00:21:30

>> Yeah. What's your relationship like with

00:21:31

religion now?

00:21:33

H

00:21:35

it's

00:21:37

I wouldn't say so much religion like the

00:21:40

the

00:21:44

how do I put this into words

00:21:49

church as an institution I don't have a

00:21:51

relationship with

00:21:53

>> um but as someone who has faith in a

00:21:56

higher being I I would say I I still am

00:22:00

in touch with my spiritual side. Um but

00:22:04

in regards to giving money to a

00:22:06

building, um that's yeah, I'm not

00:22:09

>> not getting you. No, no, no. Fair

00:22:11

enough. If I met you as a teenager, what

00:22:14

sort of guy would I have met?

00:22:16

>> You would have met a a quiet boy.

00:22:19

>> Really?

00:22:19

>> Yeah. A shut down boy.

00:22:21

>> Yeah. And even now like I I mean I

00:22:23

travel all the country speaking about

00:22:24

this and I I meet friends who childhood

00:22:27

friends who come up to me and they

00:22:28

always say, "Man, we had no idea that

00:22:30

you were just so like loving and kind

00:22:32

and quiet. We had no idea that you're

00:22:34

going through what you're going

00:22:36

through." Um but you know, you check my

00:22:38

story with my siblings, this ain't made

00:22:41

up. Like this is stuff that happened in

00:22:43

the household. You know, all when all

00:22:45

five boys can our stories all correlate,

00:22:48

you know, all connect to one another.

00:22:50

Like this was our real life story. This

00:22:52

ain't made up. Like when we watch Once

00:22:53

We Warriors growing up,

00:22:54

>> we thought that was a comedy. We would

00:22:56

compare Bethy's black eyes to mom's

00:22:58

black eyes.

00:22:59

>> Our mom's black eyes are way bigger than

00:23:01

Be like I know. Like dad's way crazier

00:23:03

than Jake the Mus because he was our dad

00:23:05

was out the gate.

00:23:10

>> When did you discover Tupac?

00:23:12

>> I think my older brothers.

00:23:13

>> So my my older brothers were all into

00:23:15

the whole hip-hop gangster rap.

00:23:17

>> Yeah. Um, so naturally that was the

00:23:19

music that I listened to growing up.

00:23:21

>> Yeah. So like teenage years.

00:23:22

>> Yeah. Well, I mean right from my

00:23:24

childhood, you know, I grew up in the

00:23:26

80s listening to hip-hop. Um, and for me

00:23:29

it wasn't so much the Pretty Girls and

00:23:31

the flash cars and them hanging around

00:23:34

spar pools and video clips. It was their

00:23:36

stories of pain and trauma that

00:23:38

resonated. So I've always loved the the

00:23:40

lyric the the words um lyricism the art

00:23:43

form of lyricism through hip-hop. To me,

00:23:46

that was another window to life. Most of

00:23:48

us brown kids who grew up in Alteor, our

00:23:50

heroes were the All Blacks, you know,

00:23:51

John Alom, Michael Jones, that was the

00:23:53

era I grew up watching.

00:23:54

>> Unfortunately for me, my country club

00:23:56

was KFC. And so I never excelled in

00:23:58

sports like my my siblings.

00:24:00

>> What your country club was?

00:24:03

>> I love my Kentucky Fried Chicken too

00:24:05

much.

00:24:05

>> Oh, who doesn't? What are those secret

00:24:07

herbs and spices? Yeah.

00:24:09

>> Um, yeah. Well, I mean, you Tupac, you

00:24:12

know, he's he's not your your your

00:24:14

regular sort of hip-hop artist, is he?

00:24:15

Like, he's a poet. Like, he's a genius.

00:24:17

Are there any particular lines or lyrics

00:24:18

that sort of kept you going?

00:24:20

>> Oh, changes. His songs changes. Um, you

00:24:24

know, just the early Tupac before he

00:24:27

joined Death Row and became, you know,

00:24:28

this angry man. And again, if you look

00:24:30

at him, he was a man. If you look at

00:24:32

him, the angry Tupac gangster rapper,

00:24:35

>> there was a little boy in there who had

00:24:37

no father present. You know, he was

00:24:39

looking for love and so he found that

00:24:40

love through this label with Sug Knight

00:24:42

and Defro.

00:24:43

>> Um, but it was his pain through his

00:24:46

lyrics that really resonated with me,

00:24:47

>> you know.

00:24:50

>> And you left home when you were 15.

00:24:53

>> Yeah. Can you remember

00:24:55

um like the the last time your dad

00:24:58

raised a hand at you?

00:25:02

Great question. Um, it would have been

00:25:06

when I left home, we were home for

00:25:07

Christmas and he was just off his face

00:25:09

drinking drunk. Um,

00:25:13

and he started going off at mom and I

00:25:16

remember standing in front of mom in the

00:25:17

kitchen on Christmas Eve and I said,

00:25:20

"Nah, not happening."

00:25:23

And then he just looked at me, "You

00:25:24

[ __ ] move out of the Lloyd." And I

00:25:25

said, "Not happening, mate." And that

00:25:28

was it. He just walked away. Um, I've

00:25:32

never laid a hand on my father. Many

00:25:33

times I've wanted to, but I never have.

00:25:36

Um,

00:25:36

>> what is that? Is that like a a respect

00:25:38

thing or it's you're just a big bigger

00:25:40

person?

00:25:41

>> A respect thing, but also respect for

00:25:43

myself.

00:25:44

>> Like I've I pride myself in regulating

00:25:46

my emotions.

00:25:48

>> Um,

00:25:49

yeah, I I pride myself in doing the work

00:25:51

to regulate my emotions. And I always

00:25:53

try and see when I'm in that

00:25:55

environment. There's been cases where in

00:25:56

my neighborhood where I hear domestic

00:25:58

violence and I, you know, I step in and

00:26:00

knock on the door and I just stay

00:26:02

regulated, you know, and I I try and see

00:26:03

beyond the man who is angry or causing

00:26:06

the havoc and just speak to the the

00:26:09

inner child that I'm standing in front

00:26:11

of because grown men do not throw

00:26:14

tantrums.

00:26:14

>> Children throw tantrums. You know,

00:26:16

children are allowed to throw tant

00:26:17

tantrums because they're still learning

00:26:19

how to regulate their emotions. So, if

00:26:20

you don't know how to regulate your

00:26:21

emotions, I'm now going to speak to the

00:26:23

little child in front of me.

00:26:24

not down at them but you know speak to

00:26:27

them of adoha and love and I always see

00:26:30

it works.

00:26:32

>> So when you leave home at 15

00:26:34

like what do you do day one? It's that's

00:26:37

it's a painfully young age to be leaving

00:26:38

home right?

00:26:39

>> Yeah man I remember I told my mom the

00:26:42

day before I left that I was leaving and

00:26:45

my mom said no you're not. Um and then

00:26:48

the next day I had my bags packed. I had

00:26:52

my one duffel bag, um, sports bag, had

00:26:56

all my clothes in it. There weren't many

00:26:58

clothes. And I remember saying to mom,

00:27:00

"I'm leaving today." The boys were

00:27:01

outside. My flat mates were outside

00:27:04

ready to pick me up. And um, my mom held

00:27:07

a machete to my neck. He said, "You're

00:27:09

not leaving." And I said, "Well, mom,

00:27:10

either you kill me now or I'm going."

00:27:13

And then her arm just dropped and she

00:27:15

just cried. And I think she she she

00:27:18

cried because she knew she felt that she

00:27:20

had failed, you know, like why is my

00:27:22

15year-old sudden leaving home at 15

00:27:24

years old? Um because home wasn't safe

00:27:27

anymore, you know. So

00:27:29

>> had she failed.

00:27:34

No one's asked me that.

00:27:37

I think she felt she failed. I don't

00:27:39

believe she failed because I I I try and

00:27:41

believe that mom did the best with what

00:27:43

she knew with what she had,

00:27:45

>> you know. I and I would often ask mom,

00:27:47

"Why don't you leave dad? Like, he's

00:27:49

going to eventually kill you, you know,

00:27:51

going in and out of refuge, lining up at

00:27:53

the food bank, sleeping in the car with

00:27:54

my siblings. Like, dad's going to kill

00:27:56

you one day. Why don't you just leave

00:27:57

him?" And my mom's response was always,

00:27:59

"Son, what else can I do? I don't have

00:28:01

any other options. I don't have any

00:28:03

money." You know, she relied on the

00:28:05

system and the system failed us many

00:28:07

times. And so I really believe I choose

00:28:11

to believe that mom tried her best with

00:28:13

what she had with what she knew. Um and

00:28:16

so I don't hold it against her that she

00:28:19

failed, you know.

00:28:20

>> Yeah. And I don't know. I find the older

00:28:23

I get, the more I actually know, the

00:28:25

less I know on the big scheme of things.

00:28:27

And nothing's ever nothing's ever that

00:28:29

black and white. No.

00:28:30

>> Um and if you if you're heavily

00:28:32

religious, you know, may maybe you

00:28:35

leaving a marriage is just not an

00:28:37

option. Yeah, exactly. And and for

00:28:39

women, some women who have left, I work

00:28:40

with men who work with Faro who families

00:28:43

where women have left and

00:28:47

the the the

00:28:50

consequences to that have been life,

00:28:53

have been death,

00:28:55

you know, tragic. Tragic.

00:29:00

Well, it seems like um like from the

00:29:01

picture you've painted of a young man,

00:29:03

it seems like you've always you've

00:29:04

always been like this um zen chill dude

00:29:06

that that's the man that I've come to

00:29:08

know now, but was there a moment when

00:29:11

you decided what sort of man you wanted

00:29:13

to be or

00:29:14

>> Yeah. Do you know what?

00:29:15

>> When I left home, I decided I did not

00:29:17

want to be my dad.

00:29:18

>> I didn't want to be from a really young

00:29:19

age.

00:29:20

>> From a really young age, I just knew.

00:29:22

And I think that's what music like

00:29:23

hip-hop, art, you know, creatives that I

00:29:27

witnessed on television, movies and and

00:29:29

books really gave me a different window.

00:29:31

Like I knew what was cool and what I

00:29:34

wanted to be like. I knew what I didn't

00:29:36

want to be like. I was living with

00:29:37

someone whom I didn't want to be like.

00:29:41

>> So you're 15, you leave home. How do you

00:29:43

start healing yourself?

00:29:45

>> Well, I moved into a boy's home. And

00:29:47

this home was full of boys who had

00:29:48

similar stories. Um, and I was just on

00:29:51

that journey of of really

00:29:54

trying to find who I was and what I I

00:29:56

wanted in life. Um, and then I met my

00:29:58

wife in my adult years. Um, while I was

00:30:01

cutting here, she was we became best

00:30:03

friends, me and Sarah. We were friends

00:30:05

for 4 years. Um, she was living over up

00:30:08

here in Oakland. I was down in Christ

00:30:09

Church and then she moved away to the

00:30:12

Cook Islands. Um, I was a joiner by

00:30:14

trade and then for one all of a sudden

00:30:17

one day I woke up and I wanted to cut

00:30:19

here

00:30:20

>> and I told Sarah over the phone while

00:30:21

she was living in the Cook Islands and

00:30:22

she said, "Oh, my father, my dad um used

00:30:25

to run a hairdressing business called

00:30:27

called Civil."

00:30:28

>> Yeah. And so I said, "Oh, all this time

00:30:30

we've been friends, he never told me

00:30:31

this, you know, I didn't know because he

00:30:33

obviously retired and left the

00:30:34

business."

00:30:35

>> Um, but yeah, he reached out Paul um her

00:30:38

dad reached out and said, "Oh, if you're

00:30:39

serious about barbering, come up to

00:30:40

Oakuckland and you can learn under one

00:30:42

of my barbers." So he owned a few barber

00:30:44

shops up here. And so then I came to

00:30:45

Oakland for a couple of months and just

00:30:47

sat in a barber shop just off of Queen

00:30:49

Street and just sweeped the floor and

00:30:51

learned off this old Turkish barber.

00:30:53

>> And so that was my journey of really um

00:30:56

getting into my career. And then it was

00:30:58

talking to men which really set off the

00:31:00

journey of healing was listening to

00:31:02

stories of men similar stories of mine

00:31:04

men who were living in beautiful

00:31:06

relationships, happy marriages and these

00:31:09

guys became my teachers

00:31:10

>> you know and so yeah I think for me the

00:31:13

the journey of healing has been a

00:31:15

journey you know not I don't think I'm

00:31:17

at that destination yet

00:31:19

>> as zen as I may come across I'm

00:31:21

definitely

00:31:21

>> but also yeah I don't know if you ever

00:31:23

arrive at that destination like there's

00:31:25

always um you can always be a better

00:31:26

person even when you're awesome like you

00:31:29

are. Um, but you you you ran through a

00:31:31

lot of information there. We're going to

00:31:32

drill down on some of that stuff soon,

00:31:34

like the um yeah, the meat cute with

00:31:36

your your wife and um how you managed to

00:31:38

get out of the friend zone after 4

00:31:40

years.

00:31:41

>> There's a lot to talk about. Um but just

00:31:44

a couple more on your on your parents

00:31:45

before we close that chapter. Um uh you

00:31:48

wrote that your mom never left your dad.

00:31:50

Um she escaped. Can you elaborate on

00:31:54

what that means?

00:31:56

They broke up um a few times throughout

00:32:00

my childhood. Um I remember my mom my

00:32:03

dad actually had left my mom for another

00:32:05

lady and for about a year and so it was

00:32:08

just us. I thought man I was on top of

00:32:10

the world. Home was like violence free.

00:32:13

>> Um mom I just seen this man a new glow

00:32:15

on my mom you know she was there was no

00:32:17

one else in our life but she was just

00:32:19

herself like she was this strong woman.

00:32:22

she was working multiple jobs to, you

00:32:24

know, keep the lights on. Um, and home

00:32:27

was just happy. And then I remember not

00:32:29

knowing that mom was probably also

00:32:31

feeling lonely. And so I don't know how

00:32:33

my dad came back into the picture, but

00:32:35

the first day my dad came back after

00:32:37

over a year, he told me to open up the

00:32:39

garage door. And I said, "Now you open

00:32:41

it up." That response ended up me

00:32:44

getting a hiding. Um, on the first day

00:32:46

that they got back into our lives. So I

00:32:49

think mom and I remember looking at her.

00:32:50

She was sitting at the kitchen table um

00:32:53

inside the house cuz that window was

00:32:55

staring right at the garage and um she

00:32:57

just yelled at my old man, you know,

00:32:59

stop, leave him alone.

00:33:01

But um that was Yeah, I think just that

00:33:04

chaos, that cycle of violence was just a

00:33:07

continuous thing right throughout my

00:33:09

upbringing until I left home at 15.

00:33:12

Years after then I think mom just had

00:33:13

enough. You know, it was my two little

00:33:15

brothers who were still at home. Um, and

00:33:18

then yeah, I think mom just had enough

00:33:19

and ended up breaking up with him. And

00:33:21

so he ended up moving out. They were

00:33:23

separated for a couple of years until

00:33:26

her last her last years of fighting

00:33:28

cancer.

00:33:30

>> They were just friends, but they were

00:33:32

living together, weren't together, but

00:33:34

just friends.

00:33:36

>> Um, you described cutting your your

00:33:38

dad's hair for the last time while he

00:33:39

was in hospice. Um, what was your

00:33:42

relationship like by that time?

00:33:43

>> No, my dad my dad's still around.

00:33:45

>> Oh, he is. No, no. It was um I cut his

00:33:47

hair when we opened up our barber shop.

00:33:49

>> Oh, okay.

00:33:49

>> Yeah. Instead of cutting a ribbon, I

00:33:52

decided to cut my dad's hair.

00:33:53

>> But I wanted to publicly forgive him

00:33:56

>> and I wanted to tell him I'd written a

00:33:58

letter and I I wanted to read it out to

00:34:00

him in front of my community, all my

00:34:02

peers, all my clients because I wanted

00:34:04

to model when we talk about healing.

00:34:07

When you tell men to do the work, most

00:34:08

men usually respond, "What does doing

00:34:10

the work look like?" Like what does that

00:34:12

look like, mate? How is that tangible?

00:34:14

I found in my work when you're telling

00:34:16

someone to do the work or teaching

00:34:18

people how to do the work, you have to

00:34:20

model that yourself. So, what better way

00:34:22

to model this than invite my father in

00:34:24

for the opening of our barber shop and

00:34:26

forgive him publicly. So, I stood there

00:34:28

reading this letter that I written to my

00:34:30

father, a heartfelt letter of forgiving

00:34:32

him. In tears, I looked around the room

00:34:34

and you know, we had gangsters, opposite

00:34:37

gang members in the room, police

00:34:39

clients, lawyers, doctors, just standing

00:34:41

there in tears.

00:34:43

And unfortunately my dad rocked up

00:34:45

drunk. So he was sitting there while I'm

00:34:47

giving this public apology like just

00:34:49

looking at everyone's like why is

00:34:50

everyone crying? Not even all there you

00:34:51

know.

00:34:52

>> But that's where I really learned that

00:34:54

forgiveness wasn't about him. It was

00:34:56

about me. It was for me to let go.

00:34:59

Because if I held on to this anger and

00:35:00

this resentment which would turn into

00:35:02

bitterness,

00:35:04

>> I would just trickle that down onto my

00:35:05

children.

00:35:06

>> So again, if I wanted to be a father, to

00:35:08

be the father that I never had,

00:35:10

>> I knew what not to be like. M

00:35:12

>> and that was my old man.

00:35:15

>> He he doesn't deserve your love.

00:35:17

>> Eh,

00:35:18

>> some would say,

00:35:19

>> but um yeah, I don't know. I mean,

00:35:23

I'm still I'm still navigating that, you

00:35:26

know. Is it for myself? I mean, some

00:35:28

some of my boys like, are you doing it

00:35:29

for your own ego? It's like, no, I'm

00:35:30

doing it for myself because I don't want

00:35:32

to be this man who just harbors so much

00:35:34

anger and resentment.

00:35:35

>> Unfortunately, this is the cards that I

00:35:37

was dealt with. This is my old man. Um,

00:35:39

I still love him and I choose to forgive

00:35:41

him daily. But I also have compassion

00:35:43

for him cuz in this journey I've learned

00:35:46

that he too was abused. He too was

00:35:48

horrifically tortured as a child, you

00:35:50

know, and so being uneducated, coming

00:35:53

into a country where you couldn't speak

00:35:54

English properly, you know, and you just

00:35:55

worked the 9 to5 factory work.

00:35:58

I mean, his his solution was the booze,

00:36:02

the alcohol, you know. So,

00:36:04

unfortunately, he just didn't have

00:36:05

adequate help.

00:36:07

>> Yeah. Yeah, if you come at it from a

00:36:08

place of um like extreme compassion, you

00:36:11

could Yeah. I mean uh he came to New

00:36:13

Zealand at a time where this was

00:36:14

supposed to be the dream, right? Come

00:36:15

here for like better wages, better

00:36:17

conditions, better life, and you end up

00:36:19

with you usually factory jobs with

00:36:21

barely enough, you know, money to put

00:36:22

food on the table.

00:36:24

>> Um is he proud of you?

00:36:26

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's proud when he

00:36:28

sees us on the news. We're talking about

00:36:30

domestic violence, obviously sharing our

00:36:32

stories. Um, my little brother, one of

00:36:34

my younger brothers, often sits with him

00:36:36

and shows him, you know, oh, this is

00:36:37

what, you know, Matt's up to at the

00:36:39

moment,

00:36:39

>> and he always says he's proud.

00:36:41

>> Is he embarrassed?

00:36:43

>> I think he's embarrassed. Actually, I

00:36:45

know he's embarrassed, but he doesn't

00:36:46

fully grasp

00:36:50

the giant how this movement has to what

00:36:52

this movement's turned into, you know.

00:36:54

Um, he doesn't fully grasp it because

00:36:56

he's not he's not a social bunny. He

00:36:57

just goes to work and then comes home

00:36:58

and has his few cans of beer, you know.

00:37:02

>> Oh, he's still a drinker.

00:37:03

>> He's still a drinker.

00:37:05

>> Um, yeah. Are there any moments like now

00:37:08

where you will see glimpses of your

00:37:10

father and you? And if so, like how does

00:37:12

that make you feel?

00:37:15

>> No.

00:37:15

>> No, not at all.

00:37:16

>> Not at all, bro.

00:37:17

>> Yeah.

00:37:17

>> Not at all. I mean, I have there were

00:37:19

moments when my son was growing up. My

00:37:22

son's now 10 years old. There was

00:37:24

moments when he was three, four, five

00:37:27

where I would just tear up. Um I was

00:37:29

like, man, how I wish my dad treated me

00:37:31

the way you, you know, how I treat you,

00:37:33

how I wish my father loved on us boys,

00:37:35

how I love you, you know, cuz I love you

00:37:37

so much. I don't I just couldn't fathom

00:37:40

doing to you what my dad did to us, you

00:37:42

know, like beating up mom, cursing at

00:37:44

mom. I would never speak to your mom in

00:37:46

front of you guys like that, you know?

00:37:47

Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not

00:37:48

perfect. I've definitely been

00:37:50

disregulated. No one can disregulate me

00:37:52

more than my wife. You know, my wife

00:37:54

knows how to, you know, get in there.

00:37:56

>> But I've never ever, you know, cursed at

00:37:58

her, cussed at her or called her names

00:38:00

in front of our children, you know,

00:38:03

>> let I mean, that's just something that

00:38:04

we've had agreements on in our

00:38:06

relationship, never to call each other

00:38:07

names,

00:38:09

>> so and that's hard when that's that's

00:38:10

all I ever heard,

00:38:12

>> you know.

00:38:13

>> Yeah. Yeah, it's all you know cuz um

00:38:15

yeah the household I I I grew up in um

00:38:17

Catholic household. There was never any

00:38:18

domestic violence but there's always a

00:38:20

lot of shouting. There was um alcohol

00:38:21

use and then when I left home and got

00:38:23

into my first couple of relationships,

00:38:24

it was the same sort of thing like um

00:38:26

and a lot of that may maybe it's teenage

00:38:28

love or whatever. You know, you don't

00:38:29

fully know how to have an adult

00:38:31

relationship. Um but as I got into my

00:38:33

20ies, I thought it's just not normal

00:38:35

like having a a relationship where

00:38:36

you're having shouting matches all the

00:38:38

time.

00:38:39

>> Um yeah, I'm exactly the same now. Can't

00:38:42

tell you the last time I had like an

00:38:44

argument like that. Like a shouting

00:38:45

argument.

00:38:46

>> No.

00:38:46

>> So, um, meeting Sarah,

00:38:50

what were your toxic traits when you met

00:38:51

her? How old were you when you met her?

00:38:55

>> Great question. Um,

00:38:58

26, I think.

00:38:59

>> Yeah, I I I asked that since like 13

00:39:01

years ago. I asked that because I think

00:39:02

I heard this in a in another podcast you

00:39:04

did or maybe the TED talk. Um,

00:39:06

>> no, I think 23.

00:39:07

>> Yeah.

00:39:08

>> Yeah. Sorry.

00:39:09

>> 16 years. because she um she told you

00:39:11

you had to do some work before

00:39:14

before you'd go out go out with you.

00:39:15

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. We

00:39:17

were best friends for so long. I mean,

00:39:18

she was the my first receptionist in my

00:39:21

little barber shed. So, I had a barber

00:39:22

shed where you could only fit two of us

00:39:24

in the in the barber shed full haircut.

00:39:27

Um and then my friend at the time,

00:39:30

Sarah, was sitting in her red car. I

00:39:32

forgot what brand it was. Um type of car

00:39:35

sitting in her red car doing all the

00:39:37

appointments, you And so she was my

00:39:38

first she was the OG receptionist and

00:39:40

all the clients said, "Oh, you guys

00:39:41

hooking up? You know, you guys should be

00:39:43

together." I'm like, "Nah, we're just

00:39:44

friends." You know, cuz she had

00:39:46

>> our oldest girl, Ocean Oceana, right?

00:39:48

Oceana was a young young girl. And I

00:39:50

just I never wanted to be that guy that

00:39:52

just played on, you know, her heart.

00:39:54

Oshi's heart. I wanted to be respectful.

00:39:56

So until I was sure, I had my own [ __ ]

00:39:59

going on. I had my own pain and trauma

00:40:00

that I had to deal with, you know, so

00:40:02

I'm not now going to pass that to you

00:40:03

and you have to do the work for me. Um,

00:40:05

so she knew all this stuff. She knew my

00:40:08

lies. She knew the stuff that I, you

00:40:10

know, kept hidden cuz she was, she

00:40:12

became my safe place where I could talk

00:40:13

about this stuff and not feel judged.

00:40:15

And that's the thing I always loved

00:40:17

about my um my wife now was she was

00:40:19

never judgmental. She always held the

00:40:21

space and just listened. And I never

00:40:23

obviously had that, you know, um in the

00:40:26

environment that I grew up, mocking was

00:40:28

normal. you know, you share any of your

00:40:30

heartfelt or vulnerable stuff traits

00:40:32

with your boys, mocking, you know, um

00:40:35

you'd be laughed at, told to harden up,

00:40:38

swallow a concrete pill, like all those

00:40:41

>> toxic things. And so, um yeah, she

00:40:43

became my first safe space where I could

00:40:45

really unload about the stuff. And so,

00:40:48

naturally, it just progressed into a

00:40:50

relationship.

00:40:52

>> And when I asked her to answer your

00:40:54

question, yeah, I said, should we make

00:40:56

this a thing? And she was a bit shocked.

00:40:58

Um, but her knowing my story said,

00:40:59

"Well, I love you, but you need to kick

00:41:02

your ass into the therapy. Get some

00:41:03

help." Cuz

00:41:04

>> you not had any therapy at that stage?

00:41:06

>> No. I mean, I've not clinic therapy.

00:41:10

I've had like counselors, people who are

00:41:13

counselors like sit with me and talk to

00:41:14

me who are my friends, but not go to a

00:41:16

proper, you know, professional with the

00:41:18

whole degree sheang.

00:41:20

>> Um, and so I did. I checked into therapy

00:41:22

and she came with me and she sat there

00:41:24

listening to because I really love this

00:41:26

woman and I wanted to do this work. You

00:41:28

know, I knew that asking her out that

00:41:30

she was going to be the one that I

00:41:31

married. Being friends with someone for

00:41:33

4 years, like I know everything. So,

00:41:36

you're the one I want to spend my life

00:41:37

with. This is not a trial and error.

00:41:39

Like, we're going to make this work. I'm

00:41:40

going to make sure I make this work. And

00:41:42

so, yeah, invited her to come to my

00:41:43

first therapy session. And so she sat

00:41:45

there listening to everything. Listen to

00:41:46

me disclose, you know, my addictions, my

00:41:50

fears, my anxiety, everything to the

00:41:53

therapist.

00:41:53

>> What were your addictions?

00:41:55

>> Pornography,

00:41:56

>> right?

00:41:56

>> Yeah. Pornography. I never I never

00:41:59

um I was never a substance user, never

00:42:02

drank alcohol. I never touched alcohol

00:42:03

till I was I was 26. So yeah,

00:42:06

pornography was my main addiction.

00:42:09

I got a whole chapter on that on our she

00:42:11

is not your rehab.

00:42:13

>> Was um

00:42:15

you was there part of you that was

00:42:17

scared of um asking her to go from being

00:42:20

you know a best friend from four years

00:42:21

to being a romantic partner in that um

00:42:24

you know if she said no it could have

00:42:25

like impacted the friendship potentially

00:42:27

>> 100%. It would have like I just thought

00:42:29

>> that's why I knew I wanted to make it

00:42:31

work and I invited her to my first

00:42:32

therapy session because

00:42:34

>> I didn't want to lose my friend you know

00:42:36

and we're putting this all on the line.

00:42:38

Um, I don't want to break her heart. I

00:42:40

don't want to break her daughter's heart

00:42:41

cuz I I came to love Oceanana now, you

00:42:44

know.

00:42:45

>> So, yeah, I was of course I was nervous.

00:42:48

>> Did what role did she play, if any, in

00:42:51

healing your heart? Obviously, she is

00:42:53

not your therapist.

00:42:54

>> Yeah.

00:42:55

>> Oh, man. What can I not I could talk a

00:42:57

whole podcast about my wife.

00:42:59

>> Yeah. I see you guys when you're in

00:43:00

here, right? Like, um, you're so in love

00:43:02

and you're such a powerful team

00:43:03

together.

00:43:04

>> Thank you. Um, look, I I wouldn't be

00:43:07

where I'm at today, you know, and I

00:43:08

often say, you know, she's not your your

00:43:10

um rehab, which is the slogan of our

00:43:12

book and our movement. Um, but she can

00:43:15

be your safe place. She is your greatest

00:43:17

cheerleader. Um, and that's what she has

00:43:19

been for me. You know, she hasn't done

00:43:20

the work for me, but she's encouraged me

00:43:22

to do the work.

00:43:23

>> Um, and she's a very boundaried human,

00:43:25

you know. Um, I can't do that for you.

00:43:27

If you're not willing to do that

00:43:28

yourself, how are you expecting me to do

00:43:30

that when I've got my own [ __ ] that I

00:43:31

have to deal with, you know? Um,

00:43:35

but yeah, 100% don't believe I'd be the

00:43:38

man I am today if not for her. I mean,

00:43:40

she's made me the father I am today.

00:43:42

She's given me my three beautiful

00:43:43

children.

00:43:45

>> So, my father's barber.

00:43:49

So, from what I can gather, you

00:43:50

originally wanted to be a teacher.

00:43:52

>> Yeah. Why did you want to be a teacher?

00:43:54

And that's the thing like growing up

00:43:56

with these childhood experiences,

00:43:58

adverse childhood experiences, which are

00:43:59

traumatic experiences in your childhood,

00:44:03

when you're met with empathy and

00:44:04

compassion, you can heal those. I was

00:44:07

fortunate to have a music teacher in

00:44:09

school who goes by the who a lady who

00:44:11

goes by the name of Mary Rustin, blonde

00:44:14

hair, blue-eyed lady whom I thought,

00:44:16

what do you know about, you know, our

00:44:18

stories? and all of us mischief kids who

00:44:21

were up to no good. We resonated with

00:44:23

her when she disclosed to us that she

00:44:25

too had gone through a lot of trauma.

00:44:28

She too was addicted to meth drugs and

00:44:31

went through rehab. Um and so when she

00:44:33

told that to us, "Oh my gosh, you have

00:44:34

our ears. You have our hearts." And so

00:44:37

just the way that she kept us kids in

00:44:39

school, it was because of her why I

00:44:41

believe most of us stayed in school and

00:44:43

finished school. If not for her, I don't

00:44:45

think most of us would be would be here

00:44:46

still today. Yeah.

00:44:47

>> Um, so you see that in movies like

00:44:49

Dangerous Minds and you know different,

00:44:51

you know, American movies like that

00:44:52

where it just takes one teacher.

00:44:54

>> She was that teacher for us. Um, and so

00:44:56

because of that,

00:44:57

>> I wanted to be a teacher. Like I wanted

00:44:58

to give to other kids what she had

00:45:00

gifted to us.

00:45:02

>> [ __ ] That's so powerful. So nice. Yeah.

00:45:04

When did you last see her?

00:45:06

>> Would have been

00:45:11

10 years ago.

00:45:12

>> Yeah. So nice that you give her a shout

00:45:13

out cuz you hope

00:45:14

>> I always talk about her.

00:45:15

>> Yeah. And you hope this information gets

00:45:17

back to her. I'm sure it does. Um,

00:45:20

>> yeah. Yeah. What was it? Was it just

00:45:22

compassion that she you

00:45:24

>> compassion and empathy?

00:45:26

>> It's when you feel seen and loved and

00:45:29

acknowledged,

00:45:31

>> that's really where healing begins, you

00:45:33

know. And so when I sit with men who are

00:45:35

incarcerated, men who have committed

00:45:36

some of the most heinous crimes in our

00:45:38

country and I sit and listen to these

00:45:40

stories, society paints them as

00:45:42

monsters, perpetrators, you know, all

00:45:44

the nasty things that they have done.

00:45:45

And hey, you're allowed to. You're

00:45:47

you're a victim. You've been hurt by

00:45:48

this man who's done some evil things.

00:45:51

100%. Be angry.

00:45:55

>> Now, as a community, we can come in and

00:45:56

sit with these men to help them heal and

00:45:58

talk with them so they don't carry on

00:46:00

the cycle. And so when I listen to the

00:46:02

gentleman's stories,

00:46:04

I soon learn that they too were once

00:46:06

upon a time a victim themselves.

00:46:08

>> So until we heal that victim within that

00:46:10

man who was sitting behind the wire,

00:46:12

>> we're never going to see cycles broken.

00:46:14

>> Yeah.

00:46:14

>> So if we want a generation of cycle

00:46:16

breakers, we have to work with those

00:46:17

with perpetrator violence because

00:46:18

they'll just go back when they've done

00:46:19

their leg, get released, they go back

00:46:21

into homes where little boys are waiting

00:46:24

for dad Superman to come and be healed

00:46:26

and be more present. Are they going to

00:46:28

get a healer version, a more healed

00:46:30

version or a more angry version

00:46:32

>> of their dad?

00:46:34

>> So, why didn't you follow through on

00:46:36

being a teacher? You ended up leaving

00:46:38

school and um training to be a joiner.

00:46:40

>> Yeah. Um I took a year break and I went

00:46:43

and worked with my boys who were all

00:46:45

joiners, you know, just hang out with

00:46:46

them. And I've always liked creating

00:46:48

things. I love using my hands to create

00:46:49

things. Um but that year turned into a

00:46:51

couple of years where I got my trade. Um

00:46:55

and so yeah became a joiner and then I

00:46:57

just moved into barbering.

00:46:58

>> I suppose what I do now I teach I go

00:47:01

around the world teaching emotional

00:47:02

literacy

00:47:04

>> um to police social workers all around

00:47:06

the world and so in some way I'm

00:47:08

teaching but not an official teacher.

00:47:11

>> Oh no I mean the teaching stuff you're

00:47:12

doing now and yeah we will get to all

00:47:15

this um but it's far more impact than

00:47:18

than teaching kids you know the alphabet

00:47:19

or the times tables. I mean that's

00:47:22

important but yeah.

00:47:23

>> Yeah 100% it is. So um the backyard

00:47:25

barber shop. So it was a a tin shed in

00:47:27

Adanui um called my father's barber. Why

00:47:30

the name?

00:47:31

>> Well it started from my faith. Um I grew

00:47:33

up Christian

00:47:34

>> and so it was a play on words because

00:47:36

you know I think when I think of the

00:47:38

tradition of going to a barber a barber

00:47:41

shop you know most kids their first

00:47:43

experience of a barber shop is going

00:47:44

with the old man. So it was that whole

00:47:46

you know going to my father's barber. Um

00:47:49

then I also for growing up in my faith

00:47:51

um where I I always wanted I looked at

00:47:54

God as a father figure you know when my

00:47:57

own father wasn't the best father

00:47:59

figure. So I imagine that this god that

00:48:01

lived up in the sky was this beautiful

00:48:03

father. And so I thought in order you

00:48:05

know how would a father treat the most

00:48:07

vulnerable in our society? I believe

00:48:10

that they would treat them with

00:48:11

kindness, compassion and empathy. M

00:48:13

>> and so I wanted to represent that idea

00:48:16

of what a loving, compassionate father

00:48:18

was. So I would be that father's barber.

00:48:23

>> And um was it wildly successful like

00:48:25

straight away? So you start up this tin

00:48:26

shed. Um I believe before too long

00:48:28

you're cutting here. You had a really

00:48:29

good work ethic, right? Like cutting

00:48:30

hair from 6:00 a.m. to midnight often.

00:48:32

Not doing it for money, doing it for

00:48:34

like pies from the bakery.

00:48:36

>> No, honestly, it just it popped off.

00:48:38

Like I I mean I started out with $5

00:48:40

haircuts, but you know when you're

00:48:42

listening to the stories in your

00:48:43

neighborhood like bro I can't take your

00:48:45

money you know and moms will come in

00:48:47

with their kids you know sometimes five

00:48:48

kids you know I'm not taking your money

00:48:51

like here's a free haircut you know

00:48:53

>> you're too soft to be in business. I

00:48:54

know honestly and all my business mates

00:48:56

say is like mate you're never going to

00:48:57

you're never going to make money and

00:48:58

even now doing this work like traveling

00:49:00

the world like you know organizations

00:49:02

pay for us to travel you know so I I

00:49:04

feel like I'm this little boy who's you

00:49:05

know walking into a candy store like I

00:49:07

could only dream of visiting these

00:49:08

countries I only seen these countries on

00:49:10

movies you know but now I get to

00:49:12

experience that so for me I am living my

00:49:13

dream I'm not making you know bank but

00:49:16

I'm living my dream where I get to visit

00:49:17

countries and and you know talk about

00:49:19

stories of healing and share my story my

00:49:20

family story

00:49:22

>> but um it popped off in a little garden

00:49:24

tin shed. And the reason why I was doing

00:49:26

6:00 a.m. to midnight because the more

00:49:28

haircuts I could do, the more I could

00:49:29

give away free haircuts, you know, so

00:49:31

these haircuts would cover other

00:49:32

haircuts. Um, and some of the guys

00:49:33

genuinely knew that. I mean, in Adanoi

00:49:36

on the east side of Christ Church, you

00:49:38

know, we would call that the hood, you

00:49:39

know, that that's the hood in Christ

00:49:40

Church, but there were so many beautiful

00:49:42

men who were coming into my little

00:49:44

>> dark corner of the street. Um, we were

00:49:47

packed right at the um corner in this

00:49:48

dead end street. you know, they're

00:49:50

walking down this long driveway and the

00:49:52

first time that a lot of these men will

00:49:53

come like, man, this is scary. Like, is

00:49:55

it all right to keep our cars, you know,

00:49:56

on the side of the road? Of course it

00:49:57

is. Like, you know, we're we're a good

00:49:59

we're a good neighborhood. It got a lot

00:50:00

of slack, but we're a good neighborhood.

00:50:02

And I think, you know, kings and queens

00:50:04

are born in that place in

00:50:07

>> Yeah. Yeah. It does sound weird like you

00:50:09

don't have the um you the red, white,

00:50:11

and blue barberh shop thing out the

00:50:13

>> different red, white, and blue lights.

00:50:16

>> Um Yeah. And so so and you went viral

00:50:19

for doing um some Tupac art in someone's

00:50:21

hair which is um that was like one of

00:50:23

your specialties e like doing portraits

00:50:24

in the back of

00:50:25

>> what's it called? Hair art.

00:50:27

>> Art so yeah that was my specialty. So I

00:50:29

just used utilize hair art to really

00:50:32

promote my barbering. And so when moms

00:50:34

will come in and like you know my kid my

00:50:36

son wants his football team or his rugby

00:50:38

team on the side of his head here can

00:50:39

you do that? Or you know it's book club

00:50:40

week can you do his favorite blah blah

00:50:42

blah. Um, yeah. And I'll straight away

00:50:45

use the power of social media, put up

00:50:47

the photo, and it'll just get hundreds

00:50:48

and hundreds and hundreds of likes, and

00:50:50

then moms will come in like, "Oh, do you

00:50:52

do like normal haircuts, too?" Of course

00:50:54

I do. Like, you know, if I can do a

00:50:56

portrait, I'm pretty sure I can do a

00:50:57

feed. Um, and so that's when really men

00:50:59

started coming. It just opened up. It

00:51:01

was I use it as an advertising tool to

00:51:03

to get men in the chair.

00:51:05

>> But that must have been I mean, this is

00:51:07

this is trivial on the big part of, you

00:51:09

know, the Matt Brown story, but the um

00:51:10

the Tupac thing. So, you know, Tupac

00:51:13

Yeah. navigated through you through your

00:51:15

teenage years. You know, you're you

00:51:17

know, you're a huge fan of his music and

00:51:19

then suddenly you get shared on the

00:51:20

official

00:51:21

>> Tupac Facebook page and it blows up

00:51:23

millions of views overnight.

00:51:25

>> Yes.

00:51:25

>> I thought I was the man.

00:51:28

>> Yeah. And it went viral and I just

00:51:29

thought well and I mean I'll never

00:51:31

forget um this barber obviously social

00:51:34

media this barber commented I miss my

00:51:36

friend and I jumped on and I was like oh

00:51:37

who's this guy saying he misses his

00:51:39

friend and it was Tupac's barber. the

00:51:41

man who used to cut who was personal

00:51:43

barber to Tupac and Biggie, you know.

00:51:44

And so I got ended up connecting to this

00:51:46

man who goes by the name of Darren Lions

00:51:49

the master barber and I said, "Bro,

00:51:50

would you ever come consider coming to

00:51:52

New Zealand?" And he said, "Yeah, I'd

00:51:54

love to." And so he came here to Altered

00:51:56

and we did a full-on tour around the

00:51:58

country, a soldout tour. And who in if

00:52:01

you told me that one day I would travel

00:52:03

the country touring with two parks

00:52:05

barber personal barber I would never

00:52:06

believe you

00:52:07

>> you know because I just dreams were a

00:52:11

distant you know thing

00:52:13

>> in my mind you know and so to travel

00:52:15

with parks barber was a massive honor

00:52:18

and I got to hear stories that I haven't

00:52:20

yet seen on in any documentary

00:52:23

any movie yet. You know he hasn't spoken

00:52:26

up about what he knows. Wow. You you

00:52:30

made a comment before saying like you're

00:52:32

not making bank, but I I feel like

00:52:34

that's that's never been your sort of

00:52:36

driving motivate. If you wanted to make

00:52:38

bank, like you you could have turned my

00:52:39

father's barber, you could have teamed

00:52:41

up with someone that knows a lot about

00:52:42

business and turned it into like a civil

00:52:44

or something, couldn't you?

00:52:44

>> Yeah. Been offered. I mean, look, my my

00:52:46

father-in-law was the man of that, you

00:52:49

know, he created a massive chain of hair

00:52:51

hair salons and hairmies and we were

00:52:53

going down that path, but I just thought

00:52:54

to myself,

00:52:55

>> this is not my passion. Like I love

00:52:57

cutting hair and I love conversing with

00:52:59

the men who sit in my chair, but being

00:53:01

this business guy who's always thinking

00:53:02

about money is just not me. Like why

00:53:04

would I?

00:53:05

>> I've got my my my hours are short in my

00:53:07

day to to really create impact.

00:53:10

>> Um but yeah, I mean I'm happy in my

00:53:11

three-bedroom, you know, townhouse back

00:53:13

in Christ Church with my faro. That's

00:53:16

all we need, you know, and I look at the

00:53:18

state of the world currently. We don't

00:53:19

need anymore.

00:53:21

>> I'm happy with what we have.

00:53:22

>> I feel like you you'd only want money

00:53:23

for what you can do with it.

00:53:25

>> Yeah. And that's the thing, we're making

00:53:27

>> Yeah, we're making money, but it just

00:53:28

goes back into our work. You know, we're

00:53:30

buying more books to give away for free.

00:53:31

And I often say to people, you know, if

00:53:33

trauma is free, why can't healing be

00:53:35

free, you know, like we have to go

00:53:37

through so many hoops, dodge so, you

00:53:38

know, jump over so many cliffs just to

00:53:40

get the right help that we all need. And

00:53:42

>> I mean, we're just doing our small part

00:53:44

around family violence prevention and

00:53:45

suicide prevention. you know, men's

00:53:47

mental health is is crucial to me,

00:53:49

important to me because I grew up in a

00:53:50

household where men's mental health just

00:53:53

wasn't healthy, you know.

00:53:56

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like a I've got it

00:53:59

like a [ __ ] on you, but yeah,

00:54:00

vulnerable conversations like weren't

00:54:02

even a thing as well. Like I went to an

00:54:03

old boy school and if you showed any

00:54:04

sort of vulnerability or weakness, it

00:54:06

would just be weaponized against you

00:54:07

>> 100%.

00:54:08

>> So you just wouldn't you just don't say

00:54:10

a word. So for you, so for you in the um

00:54:12

in um the the barberh shop chair, how

00:54:15

did the vulnerable conversation start?

00:54:17

Was it like accidental or intentional?

00:54:19

>> Accidental. I think it just grew

00:54:20

organically, you know, um when men would

00:54:23

just ask me questions, you know, what's

00:54:24

your story, you know, how did you grow

00:54:25

up, you know, and I would just share. I

00:54:27

mean, I've been talking about my story

00:54:29

since I was 15. So naturally, when if

00:54:32

anyone wanted to listen, of course, I'm

00:54:33

going to share and be honest and open.

00:54:35

Um, and I've always felt when I've been

00:54:38

courageous in sharing my story, I've

00:54:40

always been met with the same energy.

00:54:42

You know, men have often open up and

00:54:44

told me things that they've never even

00:54:45

told their wives. Men who have been

00:54:47

married for 20 years would often share

00:54:48

with me, I've never even told my wife

00:54:50

this, you know, and so I think

00:54:52

vulnerability

00:54:53

gives permission for other people to be

00:54:55

vulnerable. Um, and I see it as a

00:54:57

strength instead of a weakness, you

00:54:58

know. And I always tell guys, especially

00:55:00

guys who are in gangs, like, you know,

00:55:01

the most gangster thing you can do, bro,

00:55:04

is be vulnerable. The most gangster

00:55:06

thing you can do is break cycles. Be

00:55:08

there for your partners. Don't raise a

00:55:10

hand to your partners. Don't raise a

00:55:11

voice to your children. You know, be

00:55:12

there and be the dad that you never had

00:55:14

or witnessed. That's the most gangster

00:55:16

thing you can do. And when you speak in

00:55:17

that language or or um put language to

00:55:20

the feelings that a lot of our men

00:55:22

carry, you see the light bulb turn on.

00:55:24

You know, ah, that's how that makes

00:55:26

sense to me. you vulnerable

00:55:28

conversations are [ __ ] difficult, but

00:55:31

to be to be the person that front foots

00:55:32

it like you are in in this dynamic um

00:55:35

that's that's another level of um

00:55:37

courage I think.

00:55:38

>> Thank you, bro.

00:55:39

>> You know what I mean? Cuz it sort of it

00:55:41

sort of create it lets the customer know

00:55:43

that it's a safe space.

00:55:45

>> Yep. Then you have but you have to model

00:55:46

it, you know. I'm not going to expect

00:55:48

you to I mean again I'm not a counselor

00:55:50

and you're not paying me counselor money

00:55:51

for me to, you know, navigate this thing

00:55:53

for you. You're paying me haircut money.

00:55:55

Look, I'll I'll model it and and be

00:55:57

open, but never a judgmental. Like

00:56:00

>> I always question when people say this

00:56:01

is a safe place. No judgment. It's like,

00:56:04

well, actually, we're all judging, you

00:56:05

know, we're judging whether this is safe

00:56:06

enough for me to open up, you know? So,

00:56:08

I always tell guys, look, this is I'm

00:56:10

judgmental as, but just know that I'm

00:56:12

not going to condemn you for whatever

00:56:13

you share with me. There's going to be

00:56:15

no condemnation.

00:56:17

>> Was there a moment like an like an aha

00:56:19

sort of moment when you realized you

00:56:20

were on to something significant?

00:56:23

Um, not really, bro. It's just

00:56:28

>> I think in our sector of violence, a lot

00:56:30

of people are angry.

00:56:32

>> Um,

00:56:34

but I've seen our work. It works. When

00:56:37

you meet people who have perpetrated

00:56:39

violence and you meet and understand

00:56:42

them and look at them with compassion

00:56:43

and speak to their inner child, speak to

00:56:47

the sacredness that sits within them,

00:56:50

>> you see a much better result. You see a

00:56:52

man who is willing to heal and change

00:56:54

when you come to them with compassion.

00:56:56

But when you come at them pointing the

00:56:57

finger blah blah blah here the

00:56:59

consequences blah blah blah you know

00:57:01

that's it for you. I thought well you

00:57:03

just validate everything that I've been

00:57:05

told as a child.

00:57:05

>> Yeah.

00:57:06

>> That I'm going to be another statistic

00:57:08

that I'm going to be another data

00:57:09

>> for the system. So I choose not to be

00:57:12

that.

00:57:12

>> Yeah. What was some of the most powerful

00:57:15

moments in the chair in terms of like

00:57:17

stories you heard? Man, I've seen boys

00:57:20

cry, you know, telling me, disclosing to

00:57:23

me they because they didn't um make the

00:57:26

first 15 or they didn't make the

00:57:28

basketball a team. Um they're too scared

00:57:31

to tell their dad because their dad um

00:57:34

will just say to them that they're good

00:57:35

for nothing. Why are you even my son?

00:57:37

You know, boys just full on cry in my

00:57:39

chair. Um but these are moms bringing

00:57:41

their boys in because they believe that

00:57:43

our shop were safe was safe enough for

00:57:46

their boys to open up. Um, I've seen

00:57:48

grown as men come into our barber shop

00:57:50

in tears. Um, my barbers gather around

00:57:52

them and cry with them. You know, when

00:57:54

you hear stories of men who have lost

00:57:56

their children to violence, um, not at

00:57:59

their hands, but other people's hands.

00:58:01

We've seen some of the most horrific

00:58:02

stories. You know, our barber shop is

00:58:04

situated 2 minutes from the mosque

00:58:06

shooting that happened in Christ Church.

00:58:07

We've had some of the Muslim Faro come

00:58:09

into our barber shop, men for haircuts,

00:58:11

and just cry. I've lost my granddad.

00:58:13

I've lost my mom. I've lost my dad. You

00:58:15

know, my daughter's in a wheelchair.

00:58:16

like

00:58:18

>> there's nothing really that will shock

00:58:19

me now. You know, I've heard some crazy,

00:58:23

heartbreaking, funny stories.

00:58:28

>> Yeah. This the story, and I've heard you

00:58:29

tell this a couple of times before, but

00:58:31

it'd be wonderful if you'd um tell it

00:58:33

again if you want to. Um just broke my

00:58:35

heart. The story about Liam.

00:58:37

>> Yeah. Liam, that was in my shed. And I

00:58:40

remember we just we got along and I

00:58:43

think our stories of our fathers loving

00:58:45

alcohol connected us. Um and then I

00:58:49

remember I showed every time after a

00:58:51

barber shop, if you go to a barber and

00:58:53

they show you, they should show you the

00:58:54

final product with a smaller mirror,

00:58:56

right? Reflecting onto the bigger

00:58:57

mirror. And I remember I was showing

00:58:58

Liam like, "What do you think of your

00:59:00

haircut, bro?" And um you know he was

00:59:03

kind of not looking up but as as soon as

00:59:05

his eyes engaged with his haircut he

00:59:08

just started crying weeping and I said

00:59:11

oh awkward you know as a as a guy this

00:59:13

is my early days of barbering and I

00:59:15

thought oh what do I do? What I do? Um

00:59:18

and I asked him are you all right bro?

00:59:20

And he said yeah I just I planned for

00:59:23

this haircut to be my last haircut. And

00:59:25

I said what do you mean? He said oh this

00:59:28

was the haircut for my funeral. So, what

00:59:30

do you mean for your funeral? Well, I

00:59:33

wanted to look in my c I wanted to look

00:59:34

good in my casket because I wanted to

00:59:37

take my own life. I want to take my own

00:59:38

life. And I remember I just put my

00:59:40

mirror down and just grabbed him, hugged

00:59:43

him, and just cried with him. And so we

00:59:45

stood there crying for a couple of

00:59:46

minutes and um you know after he wiped

00:59:50

his eyes, got himself together, he you

00:59:53

know stood at my barber shed

00:59:55

and he turned around and said

00:59:58

thank you so much for seeing me tonight.

01:00:01

And I knew he wasn't talking about

01:00:03

fitting fitting him in for a haircut,

01:00:05

you know, it was thank you for seeing me

01:00:07

like really seeing him beyond the

01:00:08

facade, beyond the mask and just

01:00:10

connecting with him. And so that was

01:00:12

really my that was probably one of the

01:00:15

first moments in my my career where I

01:00:17

thought man I am on to something here

01:00:19

about just holding space for men to talk

01:00:21

and whether that's sharing my story or

01:00:23

just listening.

01:00:25

>> Um and often you know I'm not a talker

01:00:27

big talker myself you know so often if a

01:00:29

guy comes and sits in my chair I'll try

01:00:32

and navigate as gently as I can the

01:00:34

conversation. If he doesn't want to talk

01:00:35

if he doesn't want you know if I can

01:00:36

pick up that he just wants to rest then

01:00:38

I'll let him relax and we'll get to

01:00:39

work. I'm good with that. I'm happy to

01:00:41

not talk, you know, but if you know, if

01:00:43

I ask a question and he wants to talk

01:00:45

and just disclose him, whatever, like

01:00:46

then I'll happily help him navigate.

01:00:50

>> A as you expanded, um, did you find it

01:00:52

hard to like hire barbers? Cuz obviously

01:00:54

you need someone that has the ability to

01:00:55

cut hair, but also the ability to, you

01:00:58

know, hold space.

01:00:59

>> 100%. And so I mean, I had a thing in my

01:01:01

barber shop every Wednesday in our

01:01:03

barber shop. It was compulsory for you

01:01:04

to come to our team meeting. Even if you

01:01:06

weren't scheduled to work that day, you

01:01:08

had to come in 10:00 in the morning,

01:01:10

every Wednesday, we would have meet team

01:01:12

meetings and we would talk about hard

01:01:14

things. And it's not just, oh, how's

01:01:16

your week? How's your week been going,

01:01:17

boys? The boys weren't allowed to say

01:01:18

good. Like, you had to elaborate and

01:01:20

really dig deep in cuz I thought to

01:01:22

myself, who are we doing this work with

01:01:24

the men in our chair, in our community,

01:01:26

in our barber shop, if we can't do this

01:01:28

work with ourselves, with each other?

01:01:30

And so it was crucial and important for

01:01:31

me to really lead by example of what

01:01:34

having vulnerable having a vulnerable

01:01:36

courageous workplace looks like. And it

01:01:38

looked like us doing it ourselves.

01:01:40

>> Do you get lots of customers coming in,

01:01:41

there's a massive line and they're like,

01:01:42

"Oh no, I want to see Matt. I want to

01:01:44

see Matt."

01:01:44

>> No, cuz we had a booking system. Okay.

01:01:46

>> So we didn't have the um just walk-ins

01:01:48

anymore, you know, and so most of us

01:01:49

would be booked out months in advance,

01:01:51

you know, and so we always felt bad if

01:01:53

you were sick. He's like, "Oh man, this

01:01:54

guy's been waiting for a haircut and now

01:01:56

I'm crook," you know. But it was cool

01:01:58

like you say it's funny you say that I'm

01:02:00

no longer in the barbering game but just

01:02:02

like last week my wife attended a a hoie

01:02:04

down in Deneden and she says she came

01:02:06

across this young moldy man who came and

01:02:09

thanked my wife he goes I'm so gutted

01:02:11

that your barber shop is closed down

01:02:12

because it was such a special place you

01:02:14

know he comes from a faro he's the

01:02:15

youngest but he comes from a a farmer's

01:02:18

faro a family of farmers and you see us

01:02:21

boys are just like staunch we don't talk

01:02:23

about emotions or anything and I

01:02:25

remember this is what he was saying to

01:02:26

my wife and I remember my older brother

01:02:28

was going through something. So I

01:02:29

thought, you know, I'm the baby brother.

01:02:30

I don't know what to say or do to my

01:02:32

older brother to help him. So I just

01:02:33

thought, I'll book him in for a haircut.

01:02:34

I'll get him a haircut and just spend

01:02:35

some time with him. And he obviously had

01:02:37

heard of our work. And so he booked him

01:02:39

into our barber shop. And this his

01:02:41

brother got one of the um quietest

01:02:43

barbers, one of our barbers who doesn't

01:02:44

talk at all. And he just said, "I was

01:02:46

just myself there, you know, talking,

01:02:48

being loud in the barber shop." And they

01:02:49

were just so friendly and inviting. And

01:02:51

then I looked over to my brother who was

01:02:52

getting a haircut. And all I could see

01:02:54

was these tears coming down from his

01:02:56

eyes. And I don't know what the barber

01:02:58

said to my brother. But after that um

01:03:00

haircut, you know, I was like, man, now

01:03:02

what do I do from this? Like this is

01:03:04

going to be awkward to talk to him. Uh

01:03:06

should we just go get a feed? Um and

01:03:07

anyway, they went for a feed and he said

01:03:09

that that was the first time in his life

01:03:11

his brother had ever opened up to him

01:03:13

was straight after a hiccup. Wow.

01:03:14

>> And I only just heard this last week.

01:03:16

And so I just thought, man, that barber

01:03:18

shop was a a unique place. But that's

01:03:20

because us boys, us barbers, we had

01:03:23

fostered this environment where we had

01:03:24

to have these conversations within

01:03:25

ourselves.

01:03:27

>> Yeah. And that was that's your

01:03:28

leadership. Like that all came

01:03:30

completely from you.

01:03:31

>> Um Oh, yeah. I'm just giving you flowers

01:03:34

at every a possible opportunity because

01:03:35

you deserve them. Was it was it a you

01:03:37

shut the doors in 2023?

01:03:39

>> Yeah.

01:03:40

>> Was that a like a difficult decision?

01:03:42

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we decided the idea

01:03:45

came up about 2 years prior to that

01:03:47

because I was getting pulled in so many

01:03:49

directions after my TED talk. Um I was

01:03:52

getting invited from so many different

01:03:54

communities, especially indigenous

01:03:55

communities. We had received letters

01:03:57

from um communities in Canada, in the

01:04:00

States, in the UK saying, "Matt, we've

01:04:03

never seen a brown man stand on stage

01:04:05

and talk about domestic violence the way

01:04:06

you have. Your story is our story. how

01:04:09

do we access your insights and your

01:04:11

tools for our communities? And so being

01:04:14

invited to different countries to talk

01:04:15

about family violence prevention and

01:04:17

suicide prevention, I just thought, man,

01:04:19

and then coming back to the barber shop

01:04:20

and the boys were all like, you know,

01:04:22

off doing their own things and there was

01:04:23

sick days here and clients were

01:04:24

disappointed. I was like, oh man, I

01:04:26

can't do both, you know. Um, but I'm

01:04:28

passionate about this work.

01:04:29

>> And so two years prior to that, the idea

01:04:32

of closing shop um came in. And then I

01:04:37

think a year before closing I decided,

01:04:38

yeah, I need to I can't do both of this.

01:04:40

I can't do both of these things. And I I

01:04:42

gave the options to the boys. Anyone

01:04:44

want to take over? The boys like, no,

01:04:45

we're not working here if you're not

01:04:47

here.

01:04:48

>> So,

01:04:48

>> yeah. So, um my father's barber that

01:04:51

shuts. Um and she's not your rehab was

01:04:54

already a thing by this point. E there's

01:04:55

an overlap. Yeah. That's a great name,

01:04:57

by the way. And a and a I mean, it's a

01:04:59

real eye-catching logo. Like, I'm sure

01:05:01

everyone's seen a t-shirt with it on. Um

01:05:03

where did the name come from? Again,

01:05:06

everything comes from our lounge on our

01:05:08

leather couch where my wife and I just

01:05:10

sit there and talk about ideas till the

01:05:11

sun comes down, till the sun comes up as

01:05:13

well. Um, and she just I got invited to

01:05:16

do the tea talk and we were just playing

01:05:19

around with a few title names um or what

01:05:21

to talk about and obviously just talking

01:05:23

about my story of my wife and then my

01:05:24

wife just belted out, you know, she is

01:05:26

not your rehab because my mom had been

01:05:28

in rehab center for my father my entire

01:05:30

childhood. So that really was the birth

01:05:32

of the name was my wife yelling out to

01:05:34

me, okay, yeah, we we'll title, oh, you

01:05:37

know, the the foundation of my talk, my

01:05:39

te talk will be about women not being

01:05:41

rehabilitation centers and inviting men

01:05:44

to take responsibility for the healing

01:05:46

because what we do not transform,

01:05:48

>> we inevitably transmit onto those who we

01:05:50

love the most.

01:05:51

>> Yeah, the the TED talk's amazing. So

01:05:53

that was 5 years ago. It's a 25minute

01:05:55

talk. Um did did you like auto cue?

01:05:58

There's no notes. No, no. I I've

01:06:01

rehearsed that.

01:06:02

>> No, it's incredible.

01:06:03

>> Thank you. Well, I grew up in church

01:06:04

where we had to like rehearse like Bible

01:06:06

scriptures, you know, and so you'll

01:06:07

stand up on stage and, you know,

01:06:09

rehearse these recite these Bible

01:06:11

scriptures.

01:06:11

>> Yeah. I feel feel that's a bit different

01:06:12

though, like reading the passage from

01:06:13

the Bible to like like sharing some

01:06:15

really like intensely personal and

01:06:18

actually just bloody sad stuff about

01:06:20

your own life.

01:06:21

>> Thank you. Yeah, it was it was about two

01:06:23

months of me just I mean my quiet time's

01:06:26

in the toilet. So, it'll just be me

01:06:27

talking in the toilet, me driving and

01:06:29

just reciting my my speech and my kids

01:06:31

will often say, "Damn, why you keep

01:06:33

talking to yourself? I'm trying to

01:06:34

rehearse my speak my speech for for

01:06:36

Ted."

01:06:37

>> So,

01:06:38

>> yeah, for anyone that hasn't seen it,

01:06:39

it's well worth looking up on on

01:06:40

YouTube. Um 25 minutes speech, no notes,

01:06:44

first five minutes. Um just from the way

01:06:46

you're breathing, you can tell you're

01:06:47

nervous. And why wouldn't you be? It's

01:06:49

like in a massive massive auditorium.

01:06:51

And I was the last speaker of the day.

01:06:53

>> So I'm like freaking closing the whole

01:06:55

bloody

01:06:56

>> the event was Yeah. nerve-wracking.

01:06:59

>> So first five minutes um lots of laughs.

01:07:02

It's very very funny. And then suddenly

01:07:04

um it transitions and you can hear like

01:07:06

a pin drop in that auditorium.

01:07:08

>> Yeah.

01:07:09

>> Um yeah just stunned stunned silence.

01:07:13

>> Thank you. But yeah, I mean the name

01:07:15

came about cuz my wife was like, "We

01:07:16

need to cuz we had our whole community

01:07:18

come up on stage at my barbers and to

01:07:20

talk with me with a haka at the end of

01:07:22

it."

01:07:22

>> And so she was trying to figure out, oh,

01:07:24

what do we, you know, dress everyone up?

01:07:25

And I was like, well, you do that. You

01:07:26

this, you work on that. I'm working on

01:07:28

my speech. And so she decided to put

01:07:30

she's not your rehab on a t-shirt. She

01:07:32

got everyone to wear that. So that's

01:07:33

really where the name, the t-shirt, the

01:07:36

title of the book came from was from

01:07:38

those t-shirts cuz everyone started

01:07:39

messaging us, how do we access those

01:07:41

t-shirts um so much that Amazon ended up

01:07:44

ripping it off and selling it. Um so we

01:07:46

had to um copyright the the name and so

01:07:50

HBO ended up sharing the whole TED talk.

01:07:52

Um it was crazy. It went off on Twitter.

01:07:54

I mean for us it was really

01:07:59

had a lot of stack slack on the name.

01:08:00

you know it is it's triggering for some

01:08:02

especially for me it's like you know but

01:08:04

he is not your rehab too you know women

01:08:06

are re um use men as rehabilitation

01:08:08

centers so I was like okay cool if

01:08:10

that's your story I'll happily support

01:08:12

you but this is my story this is me went

01:08:14

to see my mom be a rehab center you know

01:08:16

for my father

01:08:18

>> also yeah I don't know what I don't know

01:08:19

what the breakdown is but I'm sure like

01:08:22

yeah most victims of domestic violence

01:08:23

by a long way are women rather than men

01:08:26

>> yes oh 100% look and I know like I'm not

01:08:28

ignorant to the fact it does go both

01:08:30

ways I've had many men who have sat in

01:08:31

my chair in tears

01:08:33

>> um because they can't have access to

01:08:34

their children. But unanimously, we're

01:08:37

losing more women and children at the

01:08:38

hands of disregulated men. We're also

01:08:41

losing men at the hands of disregulated

01:08:42

men. We're taking our own lives. So, if

01:08:44

anything, I hope my brothers do know

01:08:47

that the movement is an invitation for

01:08:49

us to do the work, be better.

01:08:52

>> I can't believe some people would be so

01:08:53

brittle. Bro, I had a man who came in. I

01:08:56

I was in Australia for work for Mahi for

01:08:58

about two weeks and I came back to the

01:09:00

barber shop and I was fully booked out

01:09:01

on a Friday and this old man walked in

01:09:04

um old man walked in and the boys go,

01:09:06

"Oh, bro, he's that guy's been coming in

01:09:08

every day the last two weeks while

01:09:09

you're gone um wanting to talk to you."

01:09:11

I said, "Do you guys not book him in?" I

01:09:13

said, "Oh, we we tried to, but he just

01:09:14

said, "I'll just come in when Matt comes

01:09:15

in." And I said, "Well, tell him to come

01:09:16

back on my lunch break. I'll I'll see

01:09:18

him then." Um 3 hours later to my lunch

01:09:20

break, he just he decided to sit there

01:09:22

for the whole 3 hours to my lunch break.

01:09:24

And I went over and sat and I k um how

01:09:28

can I help you? And he goes into his

01:09:30

bag, pulls out my book, which looks like

01:09:32

it's been read. Pulls out my book and

01:09:34

then goes I hate the name of your book.

01:09:36

I'm like, you couldn't just emailed me

01:09:38

this or

01:09:41

I hate the name of your book. Oh, okay.

01:09:43

M like why do you hate the name of the

01:09:45

book? He said because it should be he. I

01:09:48

was like, "Okay." Um, yeah, I used to I

01:09:51

used to get abuse from my wife, my

01:09:52

ex-wife. She used to abuse me. And I

01:09:54

was, "Oh, M, I'm so sorry that that

01:09:56

happened to you. Um, but if you ever

01:09:58

decide to write a book, I'll happily

01:09:59

support you."

01:10:00

>> And then I said, "But you know, you have

01:10:02

read the book." He goes, "Yeah." So, you

01:10:03

know, it's about my mom and my

01:10:04

upbringing of witnessing mom. He goes,

01:10:06

"Yeah, yeah." Okay.

01:10:07

>> But, you know, again, I just held space

01:10:09

for him to listen to him,

01:10:10

>> you know, but yeah, I've had push back

01:10:12

many, many times. You should have just

01:10:14

got a Sharpie and crossed out the S on

01:10:15

his

01:10:17

There you go. Happy now, mate. Um, yeah.

01:10:20

And you got um Dwayne Johnson to wear

01:10:24

the shirt in 2020 after your son wrote

01:10:26

him a note. Um, what sort of impact did

01:10:28

that have on the movement?

01:10:29

>> That took our movement to a global um

01:10:33

recognition. I think we had famous, you

01:10:36

know, WWE stars re-sharing it. You know,

01:10:38

Rkkeshi, you know, the I don't know all

01:10:41

their names. Um, we had hip-hop artists,

01:10:43

we had, you know, NFL stars resharing

01:10:46

like obviously it hit the American

01:10:47

Polynesian market. Um, and so when

01:10:50

Dwayne responded, it was massive. You

01:10:52

know, my my mom is a typical basica sour

01:10:56

woman, very private. She would always

01:10:58

say to me, "Son, why you always want to

01:11:01

tell the sad stories of our family? Tell

01:11:02

the happy stories." And I remember this

01:11:04

one time I said to my mom, "Which one's

01:11:07

mom?"

01:11:09

And that was her response. Yeah, she sat

01:11:12

there in silence. And so

01:11:14

when we did the video, that campaign um

01:11:18

a letter to the rock and we used my son

01:11:21

Angelo when Dwayne ended up responding.

01:11:23

I showed my mom his response on um

01:11:26

Instagram and my mom sat there on her

01:11:30

deathbed. You know, it was 2 weeks

01:11:31

before she lost her battle to cancer and

01:11:32

she just weeped weep. She started

01:11:34

wailing and she just said, "Son, tell

01:11:37

our story well." you know, and so I

01:11:39

always get emotional talking about it

01:11:41

because

01:11:42

>> it just runs right in our culture.

01:11:44

>> You know, this [ __ ] happens in so many

01:11:46

communities, not just Polynesian. It

01:11:47

happens in, you know, well educated

01:11:50

communities, you know, it happens in um

01:11:53

Parkia,

01:11:55

Asians, it happens in every community.

01:11:57

My wife used to work on the family

01:11:58

violence lines. She said often people

01:12:00

who were in privileged power positions

01:12:02

would ring up asking for help, who were

01:12:04

suffering from the domestic violence but

01:12:05

couldn't speak up because of their

01:12:07

positions. too much taboo, too much

01:12:08

stigma. If workplace ever found out, if

01:12:11

the doctors, if the lawyers in their

01:12:13

firm found out, like, you know, they

01:12:14

would probably lose their jobs.

01:12:16

>> You know, domestic violence happens

01:12:17

everywhere. And so for the Wayne to

01:12:20

really um plug our movement was massive.

01:12:23

It grew our movement.

01:12:25

>> I mean, it just opened us up

01:12:27

internationally.

01:12:29

>> Yeah, it was um genuine and authentic as

01:12:32

well. wasn't just him like re-sharing

01:12:34

something or, you know, posing thumbs up

01:12:36

with a t-shirt on. Um, like he put a lot

01:12:38

of thought into his response.

01:12:40

>> Well, I got a screenshot from a famous

01:12:42

Hawaiian singer who's friends with the

01:12:44

family and he had messaged, you know,

01:12:47

them saying, "Has Dwayne seen the video?

01:12:48

Has Dwayne seen the video?" And his wife

01:12:51

responded saying, "My husband has been

01:12:52

on his knees all morning in tears."

01:12:55

Because he too resonated with the story

01:12:57

>> of witnessing his mom be subjected to

01:12:59

similar violence.

01:13:01

Um, you mentioned your your mom just a

01:13:03

second ago. Do um can you remember your

01:13:05

last conversation with her?

01:13:08

>> Um, yes. Yep. It was all around healing.

01:13:12

>> Um, I I haven't shared this much, but

01:13:16

before my mom passed away, I invited my

01:13:19

brothers. Um, cuz I'm known as the

01:13:21

cheesy one in the family. So, all this

01:13:22

vulnerability, you know, talk, which I

01:13:25

call courageous and hard, my brothers

01:13:27

call it cheesy. It's like you and your

01:13:28

cheesy [ __ ] I own it.

01:13:29

>> Um, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, sweet."

01:13:31

Um, but I said, "Look, I want to have

01:13:33

these hard cord Tylenol with mom before

01:13:36

mom passes away. Um, I'm going to invite

01:13:38

mom and dad, you know, and just have

01:13:40

this conversation." My brother's like,

01:13:41

"Bro, we ain't doing none of that shit."

01:13:42

I said, "Well, I'm having it whether you

01:13:44

guys want to come or not." Anyways, my

01:13:45

older brothers end up coming. Um, cuz me

01:13:47

and the younger brothers like they

01:13:48

listen to me. The younger brothers like,

01:13:50

"Yeah, we're with you."

01:13:51

>> Um, but my older brothers are more

01:13:52

harder, you know, to get on get on board

01:13:55

with. And anyways, they came and I

01:13:57

remember sitting there while mom was

01:13:59

lying on her bed and I said I looked at

01:14:01

my dad and I said, "Dad,

01:14:03

do you know why you were so violent to

01:14:05

us? Why you were so chaotic? Why you

01:14:08

were so abusive?" You know what my old

01:14:10

man's response was?

01:14:12

What do you mean, son? I put food on the

01:14:14

table. I feed you guys. What more did

01:14:16

you want? When he said that, I looked at

01:14:19

my older brothers and they looked at me

01:14:21

like, "You [ __ ] we told you

01:14:23

that this was a waste of time.

01:14:26

But that response from my old man really

01:14:28

gave me insight. Man, dad, he's really

01:14:31

um disassociated

01:14:33

with, you know, our past, our childhood.

01:14:35

Like he's really either his mental

01:14:38

health is not all there or he just has

01:14:40

shut that completely out of his mind. Um

01:14:43

and that was really it was the after

01:14:45

talk after chat with my siblings and

01:14:46

mom, you know, mom just saying, "Son,

01:14:49

that's your dad." you know, forgive him

01:14:51

not for his sake, but forgive him for

01:14:53

you so you can be the dad for, you know,

01:14:55

my my moles. You can be the dad for my

01:14:57

grandchildren. Um, and that's all I

01:15:00

needed to hear from my mom, you know.

01:15:03

>> How do you reflect on her life?

01:15:23

Say it.

01:15:34

I don't think there were

01:15:38

I don't think there were many many happy

01:15:40

days in my mom's life. And I think sad

01:15:43

because

01:15:45

I wish she was here to see what her pain

01:15:49

how transforming what we've done to

01:15:51

transform our pain which was her pain

01:15:54

and the movement that's created you know

01:15:57

like I've received thousands of letters

01:15:59

from from women from men from children

01:16:03

who finally understand the correlation

01:16:06

of their trauma to their behavior you

01:16:08

know and why they've perpetrated this

01:16:10

violence.

01:16:12

And I think I think of my mom. I think

01:16:15

sad that you don't get to see you don't

01:16:17

get to see and experience and listen to

01:16:19

the stories of us of what happens when

01:16:22

you own your story, the entirety of your

01:16:25

story, the good, the bad, and the ugly

01:16:27

>> and transform it and and see what the

01:16:29

healing can bring. Like I never thought

01:16:30

that this would spark this global

01:16:32

movement where you I mean I've received

01:16:34

letters from people all around the

01:16:35

world.

01:16:36

>> You know people who I thought would

01:16:38

never ever resonate with a brown boy

01:16:40

story down in little old tahi and Christ

01:16:43

Church from the UK from Wales from

01:16:46

Scotland you know men incarcerated all

01:16:48

around the world in Hawaii um in the

01:16:50

islands who just connect to mom's story.

01:16:53

And so I think um I'm very very sad when

01:16:56

I think of mom. I'm very sad.

01:16:59

Yeah, it's bloody crazy.

01:17:00

>> Sorry, bro.

01:17:01

>> No, absolutely not.

01:17:04

>> [ __ ] She must have been proud.

01:17:06

>> I hope so.

01:17:08

>> What do you mean?

01:17:08

>> She was She was proud, but I hope she's

01:17:10

proud now like even more that Oh, Sonia,

01:17:12

keep speaking up.

01:17:14

>> You know, um, she was proud. Like, no,

01:17:16

she would always say she was proud of

01:17:17

us. Like anyone who was friends, my mom,

01:17:19

even some of her friends now message me

01:17:20

like, "Man, your mom would always gloat

01:17:22

about you guys when she'll come and play

01:17:24

with us on a Friday." She would always,

01:17:26

she couldn't stop talking about her

01:17:27

sons. Um, so I know she was proud, but I

01:17:29

hope wherever she's she is today, um, in

01:17:33

the sky or wherever with my children.

01:17:35

Um, she's super proud.

01:17:40

>> Thanks for sharing that.

01:17:41

>> Yeah.

01:17:42

>> Thanks for making me cry. Your first

01:17:43

freaking podcast has made me cry.

01:17:47

>> Um, yeah. Well, one thing I've learned

01:17:49

about you is, um, yeah, you've got a lot

01:17:52

of people crying.

01:17:54

you've normally and and I reckon um yeah

01:17:57

like you know talking about when I was

01:17:58

growing up like yeah you just didn't

01:18:00

want to be like crying was was a weak a

01:18:02

weak sort of trait and it's something

01:18:03

you didn't want to do and I don't know I

01:18:05

often find as I get older I'm sort of

01:18:06

leaning into it a bit more.

01:18:07

>> Yeah.

01:18:08

>> It's funny like when you see always I

01:18:10

always hear this echo when you start to

01:18:12

cry and you hear it's like stop crying

01:18:14

or I'll give you something to cry. I was

01:18:15

like I'm already crying you know.

01:18:18

>> Yeah we had that one too.

01:18:20

>> Yeah. Stop crying or I'll give you

01:18:20

something to cry about. I was like

01:18:26

um so the the book she is not your rehab

01:18:29

did did did that come about as a result

01:18:31

of the TED talk was that the order of

01:18:33

things or was

01:18:34

>> it came after the TED talk but we were

01:18:36

already writing this so this came out um

01:18:38

we were approached by Penguin um when

01:18:40

the mosque shooting happened in Christ

01:18:42

Church where we lost a lot of our Muslim

01:18:44

Faro um our our barber shop became one

01:18:47

of the hubs so we had a lot of friends

01:18:50

clients who were social workers and they

01:18:51

were just messaging us like, "Bro, we

01:18:53

can't access any help for our Muslim

01:18:54

Faro. Can you do put something up on

01:18:56

your socials?" And so I reached out to

01:18:58

our community and then all of a sudden

01:19:00

all these influencers around the country

01:19:01

were like, "If you guys, you know, want

01:19:03

to, you know, skip the red tape, just

01:19:05

donate whatever you can to the barber

01:19:06

shop. They've got social workers who

01:19:07

will just go and dividend this, give

01:19:09

this out to the um Muslim community."

01:19:12

And so yeah, Penguin approached us. They

01:19:13

came and donated thousands of dollars of

01:19:15

books to our Muslim Faro. And then they

01:19:17

approached, hey, we send your TED talk

01:19:19

like we are you guys doing anything? are

01:19:20

you writing anything? Like, well, we

01:19:22

are. We're writing this book. And so, we

01:19:24

signed off Penguin.

01:19:25

>> Yeah. And it's not just not just a book.

01:19:28

It's like a it's a a very helpful

01:19:29

resource. Um, what was the hardest

01:19:32

chapter to write?

01:19:35

>> She is not your shame.

01:19:37

>> Um, I think cuz when I wrote this book,

01:19:41

I didn't want to I didn't want it to be

01:19:42

another trauma dump story where I just,

01:19:45

you know, vomited everything that I've

01:19:46

gone up for, grew up in. I wanted to

01:19:48

have proper tools, proper insights that

01:19:50

would actually help people. Um, and so I

01:19:53

said to my wife when we were writing

01:19:54

this, I said, I don't want to paint my

01:19:56

parents um into this image that they're

01:19:59

just perpetrators and monsters, you

01:20:00

know, why didn't she leave him? Why

01:20:02

didn't he stop, you know, abusing her? I

01:20:04

wanted to wrap it around with compassion

01:20:06

and empathy because my siblings will be

01:20:07

reading this. My faro will be reading

01:20:09

this and we are the ones that have to

01:20:10

live with this, not, you know, the the

01:20:12

comment section, the cheap seats, people

01:20:14

who are sitting in cheap seats. We have

01:20:15

to live with the aftermath for this. Um

01:20:18

and so the hardest chapter when it came

01:20:20

to it my wife said to me rang me up

01:20:22

actually she was up here in Oakuckland

01:20:24

writing the book I was back home with

01:20:25

the kids and she said would you ever

01:20:28

share about blah blah blah blah blah I

01:20:30

said how to know we are putting that in

01:20:32

the book I am never ever sharing that

01:20:34

and she said okay well I just thought

01:20:35

I'll ask but my wife knows me well all

01:20:37

she has to do is plant the seed and then

01:20:40

she knows it will just grow into

01:20:41

something else anyways a year later I

01:20:44

had been sitting on that question and I

01:20:46

came to I was you know what I think we

01:20:48

should talk about that you know and so

01:20:50

chapter three where she is not ashamed

01:20:51

where I talk about being um humiliated

01:20:55

one of my and it's affected my adult

01:20:57

life um one of my experiences of

01:21:01

childhood trauma was being stripped

01:21:02

naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked

01:21:04

at because of how my body looked you

01:21:06

know I wasn't the same physical athlete

01:21:09

as my my siblings um I've always been

01:21:12

the chubbier one and so yeah whenever

01:21:16

cousins and family members came around,

01:21:18

if they wanted a good laugh, my mom

01:21:19

would just yell out to my siblings, "Go

01:21:21

get Matt, come in, strip him naked, and

01:21:23

just laugh laugh at me and my genitals."

01:21:25

And so that really,

01:21:28

to put it friendly, [ __ ] me up, you

01:21:31

know?

01:21:32

>> How can it not?

01:21:32

>> Yeah. How can it not? I just it just

01:21:34

people say, "Oh, you know, I I didn't

01:21:37

sleep with people physically because I

01:21:39

was so traumatized from that, you know,

01:21:41

the

01:21:43

feeling that I could give someone myself

01:21:46

physically intimately. I just thought,

01:21:47

nah, I'll just get laughed and mocked

01:21:49

at, you know, and that happened not just

01:21:51

once, not just two, three, four, five

01:21:53

times, like constantly right throughout

01:21:54

my childhood." Um but funny in sharing

01:21:57

that that chapter has become the most

01:22:00

powerful chapter, the most that I've

01:22:02

ever received um responses and letters

01:22:04

from men everywhere. Um a lot of men

01:22:07

struggle with body shame, you know, but

01:22:09

we don't talk about it

01:22:10

>> and so yeah, it's been probably the most

01:22:13

powerful chapter and so I'm glad I've

01:22:14

I've put it in the book.

01:22:16

>> [ __ ] How do you get over something like

01:22:18

that?

01:22:20

>> Long long time. I mean, I've been

01:22:22

married to my wife for coming up 10

01:22:24

years, and that's been a journey in

01:22:26

itself. You know, I remember when I

01:22:28

first made love to my wife. It was just

01:22:30

in tears, you know. I just I was in the

01:22:32

toilet crying. She sh like, "Are you all

01:22:35

right?" I was like, "Yeah, well, I just

01:22:37

>> I've just haven't been physically

01:22:38

intimate with anyone because of my

01:22:40

childhood trauma, you know. I just

01:22:41

didn't trust people. I didn't I hate

01:22:43

being touched. I hate anything like

01:22:45

that. You know, you're the first person

01:22:46

I've given this to. And so, let me

01:22:49

gather myself, you know.

01:22:51

Did did anyone not that not that it can

01:22:53

take away what happened but did anyone

01:22:54

apologize for that like did your mom

01:22:56

apologize or any of you know your

01:22:58

brothers or cousins that were laughing

01:23:00

at you?

01:23:00

>> Not not so much my cousins. I don't hold

01:23:02

them responsible for that. Um but my mom

01:23:05

apologized cuz I had the hard out

01:23:07

conversation with her. Do you remember

01:23:08

when you used to do this to me? So you

01:23:09

know how much it's [ __ ] me up. And my

01:23:12

mom I'm so sorry son. So why did you

01:23:14

find that was funny? That's not funny.

01:23:16

Like that scarred me for life. It's

01:23:17

affected you know my relationships.

01:23:20

And yeah, my mom just owned it. She' I'm

01:23:22

so sorry.

01:23:23

>> I'm so sorry. So yeah.

01:23:27

>> Yeah. I mean, I suppose that's all you

01:23:29

like compare that response to your dad's

01:23:31

response. Like what are you talking

01:23:33

about? At least there's um I don't know.

01:23:35

I suppose a sense of like ownership or

01:23:37

acknowledgement.

01:23:38

>> Yeah, 100%. Now,

01:23:39

>> how did how did you get how did you get

01:23:41

the book into into um corrections? Like

01:23:44

every jail cell in New Zealand got got a

01:23:46

copy of this book. Every person

01:23:47

incarcerated in 2021 ended up receiving

01:23:49

a book for Christmas.

01:23:50

>> Yeah. Which is like what, 10,000 people?

01:23:52

>> Yeah. 9,350 people.

01:23:54

>> Shocking number. By the way, I think

01:23:55

most people have probably been to Spark

01:23:57

Arena. This is like an arena full of uh

01:24:00

people.

01:24:01

>> Yeah.

01:24:01

>> Yeah. We um while we asked Penguin, our

01:24:04

publishing um publishers, that this was

01:24:07

the dream. My and the reason why my

01:24:08

dream was to get it into every person

01:24:10

incarcerated was because I was a boy at

01:24:12

home waiting patiently every time my dad

01:24:14

did a long leg in prison for domestic

01:24:16

violence or something stupid. We were

01:24:18

hoping and praying that someone would

01:24:20

say something to him while he was sober.

01:24:21

This was the opportunity to speak to

01:24:23

him, speak some sense to him while he

01:24:25

was sober. Unfortunately, that day never

01:24:27

came. You know, 39 years on this earth

01:24:29

and my dad still drinks alcohol. You

01:24:32

know, was still abusive to my mom right

01:24:34

up until she died. And so, um, yeah, we

01:24:37

ended up raising the funds. We knocked

01:24:39

on different organizations, the police,

01:24:41

uh, a moldy organization back in Christ

01:24:43

Church. People gifted us money and we

01:24:45

ended up buying the book. So, we bought

01:24:46

it at wholesale. We didn't make any

01:24:48

money from it. Um, it didn't go on the

01:24:50

best sellers list like, and we just

01:24:52

donated it. So, by Christmas 2021, every

01:24:55

person incarcerated ended up receiving a

01:24:56

book.

01:24:57

>> [ __ ] you've got a big heart, don't you?

01:24:59

You and Sarah.

01:25:00

>> Thank you, bro.

01:25:01

>> Um, you you must get a lot of jail mail.

01:25:04

A lot, bro. A lot. And then one time the

01:25:06

postman was like, "What are you guys

01:25:08

running in prison?" Cuz all the leaders

01:25:09

that will come to the barber show a

01:25:10

letter from a prison envelope.

01:25:13

>> I was like, "No, bro. We're just running

01:25:14

a a healing trade." So,

01:25:17

>> what's the um Yeah. What's the general

01:25:19

theme of the messages? People sharing

01:25:21

their own stories.

01:25:22

>> Sharing their own stories. Horrific

01:25:23

stories, bro. Like, I think my story was

01:25:26

bad. There's some guys in there who are

01:25:28

just like you. I have not seen a movie

01:25:31

or documentary of this [ __ ] that a lot

01:25:33

of our tan here in this country have

01:25:34

experienced.

01:25:36

>> Prison is the biggest collection of

01:25:38

traumatized people in society. So if you

01:25:40

think of aces, adverse childhood

01:25:42

experiences, people in prison probably

01:25:44

have six or more. Out of the top 10

01:25:46

aces, people in prison have six or more.

01:25:52

>> Yeah. That's the curious thing about you

01:25:53

because you you you treat someone like

01:25:55

an animal and chances are they're going

01:25:57

to end up being like an animal, but you

01:25:58

it seems like you've never

01:26:01

you you never had to break the cycle.

01:26:04

It's like you've just you were just

01:26:05

always destined to be on this good path,

01:26:07

right? As a as a good man.

01:26:08

>> I hope so. And it's funny. I mean, I

01:26:10

grew up in a Catholic church, too. And

01:26:12

um my wife asked me this question the

01:26:14

other day. She said, "You know what?

01:26:15

What did you used to pray for when you

01:26:16

were a kid? You know what I used to pray

01:26:18

to Satan?" And when I say that to some

01:26:19

of you, I used to pray to Satan, the

01:26:21

devil. I I used to as a kid I used to

01:26:23

pray to the devil and ask him to change

01:26:25

like please stop being mean you know you

01:26:27

be better stop hurting people you but

01:26:29

that's just who I was as a kid I used to

01:26:31

always Yeah.

01:26:32

>> Oh that's so sweet.

01:26:33

>> I know bro I look back like man I am a

01:26:36

weer who asked the devil to change

01:26:39

>> me.

01:26:41

I think it's like there's a quote that

01:26:42

you really um that you use saying um you

01:26:45

know we're more alike than what we are

01:26:47

different. I think that's the quote.

01:26:48

Yeah. It's like you just want to see the

01:26:50

good in everybody, even Satan.

01:26:52

>> Yeah. Well, that's I mean, how can you

01:26:54

not when you're listening to men? I've

01:26:56

sat with lawyers, judges, men in suits

01:26:58

whom I thought, man, I've never sit on

01:27:00

the same table as you, you know, but

01:27:02

when I actually hear their stories, too.

01:27:04

>> Shame doesn't discriminate.

01:27:05

>> Pain doesn't discriminate. Mental health

01:27:07

doesn't discriminate. Like, we're all

01:27:08

more alike than we are different. And if

01:27:10

people just actually took the time to

01:27:12

sit and listen to each other, we

01:27:14

wouldn't be living in the [ __ ] up

01:27:15

world that we're living in right now

01:27:16

currently.

01:27:17

>> Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I found from

01:27:19

doing this podcast is like most people

01:27:21

are hard to dislike up close.

01:27:23

>> Yeah.

01:27:24

>> You know,

01:27:24

>> hard.

01:27:25

>> Um Yeah. In your story, there's a lot of

01:27:28

um intergenerational trauma. What advice

01:27:30

would you give to someone who doesn't

01:27:31

know where to start in breaking the

01:27:32

cycle?

01:27:38

>> The most courageous thing you can do is

01:27:40

own your story.

01:27:42

And when you're ready to do that, find

01:27:45

someone who's safe enough for you to do

01:27:46

that with.

01:27:47

find the right person because not every

01:27:49

person's safe. Um, not every counselor

01:27:52

is for everyone, but there is someone

01:27:54

out there. Doesn't have to be a

01:27:55

counselor. Could be a teacher, could be

01:27:56

a friend. Um,

01:27:59

find someone who's safe enough for you

01:28:01

to open up to. That's I believe is the

01:28:03

first step.

01:28:05

>> I love how much of a pause you gave

01:28:07

there and how much thought you put into

01:28:08

that answer.

01:28:09

>> Thank you.

01:28:10

>> Your words Your words carry a lot of

01:28:12

weight and a lot of power. What's a

01:28:14

truth about masculinity that more men

01:28:16

need to hear? But most probably aren't

01:28:18

ready for

01:28:21

when you suppress

01:28:24

what's the word.

01:28:31

We're human beings, not human doings.

01:28:33

We're human beings.

01:28:35

>> So we're all born with emotional and you

01:28:38

know emotional feelings, etc. When you

01:28:41

suppress or deny yourself any of those

01:28:43

things, whether it's grief, anger, hurt,

01:28:46

pain, you're also denying your humanity.

01:28:51

And so, I think being masculine is

01:28:53

embracing all of that.

01:28:55

>> Embracing all of that and owning it and

01:28:57

carrying yourself well so you don't

01:28:59

transmit that pain onto those who you

01:29:00

claim to love the most, our children,

01:29:02

our partners. And I so I think masculine

01:29:06

to me is someone who

01:29:11

just owns owns their entire story.

01:29:16

>> I love that. In your experience, what's

01:29:18

the biggest thing men get wrong about

01:29:19

healing?

01:29:21

>> That it's cheese. Um

01:29:24

that it's butterflies and rainbows. It's

01:29:26

not. It's freaking hard.

01:29:28

>> Healing is one of the most hardest

01:29:29

things you will ever do. Um, I've seen

01:29:32

grown as men whom society think are

01:29:34

gangsters are the toughest crumble

01:29:37

on their knees and tears when they start

01:29:40

healing.

01:29:42

Healing is as masculine as it gets. You

01:29:44

know, I think doing the work, whatever

01:29:46

that whatever that work looks like,

01:29:48

whether it's opening up, whether it's

01:29:49

being better, whether it's opening the

01:29:51

door for your partner, whether it's

01:29:52

getting up and thinking about your

01:29:54

partner before she even thinks of what

01:29:55

she needs next. You know, to me, that's

01:29:57

what being masculine is. My wife is

01:29:59

currently sick with stage 4

01:30:00

endometriosis.

01:30:02

I grew up not even being educated on

01:30:05

what endometriosis is, let alone what

01:30:07

women go through. So I think to myself,

01:30:08

man, my mom must have went through so

01:30:10

many things, you know, of her cycle, she

01:30:12

never ever disclosed to us boys, you

01:30:14

know, what she would have had to go

01:30:15

through by herself. And I just think

01:30:17

being masculine is knowing what my best

01:30:21

friend, what my children need before

01:30:23

they even before it even comes to them,

01:30:26

before they even ask me. And so

01:30:28

>> yeah, I'm always learning. You know,

01:30:31

>> you've said that healing is a daily

01:30:32

practice and not just a one-time event.

01:30:34

What does what does that look like for

01:30:36

you today?

01:30:38

>> Sorry, can you say that again, bro?

01:30:39

>> Um, yeah, healing is a you've said

01:30:41

healing is a daily practice and not just

01:30:42

a one-time event. So, like for you like

01:30:45

here and now today, what does healing

01:30:47

look like?

01:30:48

>> Um, I think it's just a constant

01:30:51

opportunity to keep yourself regulated.

01:30:54

um a con constant opportunity um to

01:30:56

evolve and do better. Um not overreact

01:31:00

but respond.

01:31:03

>> Um but always searching for the truth.

01:31:06

What is the truth here in this moment?

01:31:08

You know, if people are triggered or if

01:31:10

I'm triggered, what's the truth here?

01:31:11

Did this person really mean harm to me?

01:31:13

Or did this keyboard warrior, you know,

01:31:15

really want to stomp on my mana online

01:31:18

or are they just going through their own

01:31:20

thing, you know? So what's the truth

01:31:22

here? And

01:31:22

>> so I think for me that question when

01:31:25

you're always asking yourself what is

01:31:26

the truth here in every situation there

01:31:29

is always room for growth and healing.

01:31:32

>> Yeah. And I think like a living example

01:31:33

of what you just said was the guy that

01:31:35

came into the shop and said it should be

01:31:36

he is not your rehab. Um and how you

01:31:38

reacted to that.

01:31:39

>> Yeah.

01:31:40

>> Um yeah. What sort of legacy do you hope

01:31:43

this book and this movement will leave

01:31:45

behind in you know 10 20 30 40 50 years?

01:31:50

The legacy I hope is we create a

01:31:52

generation of cycle breakers. We have

01:31:54

more men who are emotionally um literate

01:31:57

um more emotional intelligence cuz I

01:32:00

think if we have children who are

01:32:02

growing up with emotional literacy we

01:32:04

wouldn't have the violence that we have

01:32:05

today. We wouldn't have the statistics

01:32:07

that we have today. Why is it that New

01:32:08

Zealand altered has the highest

01:32:11

statistics in the OECD world of family

01:32:14

violence? Why do we have the highest

01:32:16

rates of suicide for adolesccents aged

01:32:18

15 to n 19 years old in this country in

01:32:21

the world?

01:32:22

>> Emotional literacy is lacking. But I get

01:32:24

it, you know, like teachers are signing

01:32:26

up to be history teachers and coaches

01:32:28

and PE teachers. They didn't sign up to

01:32:30

be emotional, you know, regulators for

01:32:32

our kids. But somehow the school system

01:32:34

has become this place where you babysit

01:32:36

our kids while we go off to work and pay

01:32:38

our bills. Like it's hard to be the

01:32:40

teacher solely in charge of 20, you

01:32:43

know, hearts and minds in one hour and

01:32:46

yours now your sole job is to teach them

01:32:48

emotional literacy. Like

01:32:50

>> we need a village. We we need to stop

01:32:53

overp profofessionalizing everything. We

01:32:55

need teachers, coaches, choir directors,

01:32:58

all trauma informed and emotionally

01:33:00

aware to help our people. That's the

01:33:02

legacy I hope um our books, our copa

01:33:05

leaves.

01:33:08

That's such a good answer, man. I'm just

01:33:11

hanging off every word you say. You're

01:33:13

so wise, eh?

01:33:16

What's your What's your inner critic

01:33:18

like?

01:33:20

>> Um, it's gotten better.

01:33:22

>> It's gotten better. I think um

01:33:26

I've been the hardest on myself. I'm I'm

01:33:29

a creative, so you know, perfection I've

01:33:31

had a strange relationship with

01:33:32

perfectionism. Um but I you know I think

01:33:35

the art the artist in me believes well

01:33:38

it is what it is you know um but my

01:33:41

inner critic

01:33:42

>> he pops up here and there um Matt you

01:33:44

could do better or you know Matt you

01:33:47

could have done that better for your

01:33:49

wife and for me the person who I live to

01:33:52

try and um

01:33:55

to serve is my dear wife

01:33:58

>> and and I say that because when I say I

01:34:00

wouldn't be who I am today if not for

01:34:02

her like I want to give her all the

01:34:04

flowers and give her the time that I

01:34:06

have because the the moment I met Sarah

01:34:08

and and chose to do this life and be in

01:34:11

this partnership marriage, it's been the

01:34:14

happiest years of my life, you know,

01:34:16

more happier than any of my childhood

01:34:18

memories. So, I thought, why wouldn't I

01:34:19

want to see the store flourish and grow

01:34:22

into something that it um it could be?

01:34:24

And it is, you know, my children will

01:34:26

never ever know of, you know, raised

01:34:29

voices, you know, tears and broken

01:34:31

plates, bruised faces. They will never

01:34:34

ever know that

01:34:35

>> because I constantly want to be this man

01:34:37

for my wife.

01:34:38

>> Yeah.

01:34:39

>> Well, you're a powerful dude. Um, she's

01:34:41

a powerful woman. And together, I don't

01:34:44

know. It's just it's just this dynamic

01:34:47

almost like the Avengers or something. I

01:34:49

don't know. Um, yeah. When when you when

01:34:52

you brush your teeth in the evening and

01:34:54

you look in the mirror, you you know,

01:34:55

you like the man looking back at you.

01:34:57

>> 100%.

01:34:58

>> Yeah. Very happy with the man I am

01:35:00

today.

01:35:00

>> Yeah.

01:35:02

>> What do you mean?

01:35:02

>> I feel like I'm in my peace um season.

01:35:05

Like even my wife was saying like you

01:35:07

seem real peaceful,

01:35:08

>> you know, this this year. I like Yeah. I

01:35:10

think after closing the barber shop in

01:35:13

2023

01:35:15

um doing this mahi doing this work and

01:35:17

just watching my children grow up you

01:35:19

know with joy and happy and the

01:35:20

privilege that they have you know

01:35:21

>> like don't get me wrong I educate them

01:35:23

on what's happening around the world in

01:35:25

different countries where children are

01:35:26

getting bombed and I say you know we

01:35:30

have to be we have to use our privilege

01:35:32

to be voices for those who are voiceless

01:35:36

you know and so I don't take it lightly

01:35:38

that I was that we won the lottery being

01:35:40

born here in Alteor. Um

01:35:45

but yeah,

01:35:46

>> you what's what's your personal

01:35:48

definition of success?

01:35:52

>> Well, you just said being at peace with

01:35:53

myself.

01:35:54

>> Um what I just shared with you before my

01:35:56

personal definition of success is

01:35:59

knowing that my children want to hang

01:36:00

around me. I mean, our daughter's 22 and

01:36:03

she still wants to hang around us, you

01:36:04

know,

01:36:04

>> and it's not a given. and her boyfriend

01:36:06

wants to hang around us, you know, who's

01:36:07

in whose son-in-law wants to hang around

01:36:09

with his, you know, in-laws. Um, to me,

01:36:12

that's success. I'm at peace with

01:36:13

myself. Um,

01:36:15

>> and if if someone's not at peace with

01:36:17

me, look, come court, I'll happily talk

01:36:19

to anyone who wants to have a a corridor

01:36:22

with me about anything. But

01:36:23

>> yeah, I'm 100% happy with myself. I'm

01:36:26

happy with the man I am. I love my

01:36:28

marriage. I adore my children. I love my

01:36:30

friends. And Faro, um, to me, that's

01:36:33

success. You couldn't give me a billion

01:36:35

dollars. I mean, you could and I'll do

01:36:37

more and help people.

01:36:38

>> Why would you give you a billion? You

01:36:40

just give it straight away. Give it

01:36:41

away. Yeah. No, we love that about you.

01:36:44

If this was the last podcast you ever

01:36:45

did, um, is there anything you'd want to

01:36:47

say that you that you haven't said?

01:36:53

>> Far, great question.

01:37:11

Um,

01:37:23

I would say to everyone if whoever is

01:37:25

listening,

01:37:27

if you are privileged in whatever form

01:37:29

that looks like,

01:37:32

Please use it for those who are not.

01:37:35

Please use your power, your platform,

01:37:38

your privilege

01:37:40

for those who are not because there are

01:37:41

many people who are not in the same

01:37:44

position. And I think we as a race, we

01:37:46

as a society, we as a culture are only

01:37:48

as good as our neighbor. And if our

01:37:51

neighbors

01:37:53

are in desperate need of our help, our

01:37:55

voices, whatever it is, whatever our

01:37:57

privilege is, I think use it. or else to

01:38:00

me you just sound like you're full of

01:38:01

[ __ ] Anything you do, any good that you

01:38:04

do and you're, you know, claiming I

01:38:07

don't know whatever it is, but you're

01:38:08

not thinking about our most

01:38:09

disadvantaged and underprivileged in our

01:38:11

society. To me, you're full of [ __ ]

01:38:13

>> And so I just strongly encourage those

01:38:16

who are in privileged positions and in

01:38:18

power position positions, please think

01:38:21

of our our least our most vulnerable.

01:38:25

Um, and

01:38:28

for those who have been on my journey,

01:38:30

like, thank you so much. I love you. And

01:38:34

those who I have the honor and privilege

01:38:36

to meet in person. I'm sorry if I look

01:38:38

like a snob. I'm not a snob. I guarantee

01:38:40

you that. I'm just an introvert. I'm a

01:38:42

very quiet person. Um, but anyone who's

01:38:45

doing this, Mahi, for our most

01:38:47

vulnerable, I love you and I thank you

01:38:49

because those children who were

01:38:51

vulnerable are me and my siblings. and

01:38:54

how I wish someone stood beside me and

01:38:56

said, "Matt, this was never yours to

01:38:57

carry.

01:38:58

>> I wouldn't, you know, because even

01:39:00

though I'm lucky enough to turn out this

01:39:01

way,

01:39:02

>> some of my faro and my extended faro

01:39:05

haven't been so lucky. Some of my faro

01:39:07

are incarcerated,

01:39:09

>> you know, and so we may have grown up

01:39:11

with the same parents,

01:39:12

>> but we all experienced different

01:39:14

parents, you know.

01:39:16

Well, I I I've loved the time that we've

01:39:19

spent together, not just in the podcast

01:39:20

today, but um other times you've been

01:39:22

here at Pod Lab to do a podcast, and

01:39:24

you're you're someone that I don't know,

01:39:26

I just feel comfortable sitting in

01:39:27

silence with,

01:39:28

>> you know, not having to not having to

01:39:30

necessarily speak or say anything. You

01:39:31

just have that sort of like presence. Um

01:39:34

[ __ ] Yeah. 5 years, sevenyear-old,

01:39:37

10year-old Matt. Yeah. What would he

01:39:39

think of this dude?

01:39:42

>> Man, I thought he made me want to cry

01:39:44

even asking that question.

01:39:46

Man, if I if five 17y old me seen

01:39:52

who I am today, I would just cry.

01:39:54

>> I would it would give me so much hope

01:39:57

>> that this is the man I am. That I would

01:40:00

have this family. I would have children

01:40:01

who run to me, fight over a hug when I

01:40:03

get through the door.

01:40:05

>> I would just cry like, man, is that

01:40:07

going to be the life that I live? Okay,

01:40:08

I'll hold on.

01:40:11

>> Yeah, there's hope, eh?

01:40:12

>> Yep. 100%.

01:40:15

Matt Brown, hell of a podcast. Love you,

01:40:17

my bro.

01:40:18

>> Love you, too, brother. Thank you for

01:40:19

your mahi, bro, and for your courageous

01:40:21

conversations and the guests that you've

01:40:22

had over the years that I've been an

01:40:24

honor to listen to. Thank you for having

01:40:26

me

01:40:26

>> being such an honor and I love every

01:40:28

time I get to hug you, bro. You're

01:40:29

you're a great hugger. You're a good

01:40:31

man.

01:40:32

>> You You too. And you and your wife,

01:40:33

Sarah, love what you're doing. And um

01:40:35

yeah, just can't wait to see where this

01:40:37

movement that you guys have created

01:40:38

goes.

01:40:39

>> Thank you all. Appreciate it.

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Episode Highlights

A Life-Changing Moment
A confrontation with his mother leads to a pivotal moment in their relationship.
“You’re not leaving.”
@ 00m 45s
August 31, 2025
Healing Through Conversation
After losing their mother, Matt and his siblings confront their past and seek healing.
“We need to really heal together as a family.”
@ 11m 37s
August 31, 2025
Community Silence
Expressing frustration over community inaction during childhood violence.
“I’m still pissed off at those people.”
@ 20m 02s
August 31, 2025
Breaking the Cycle
Deciding to break away from his father's legacy of violence.
“I didn’t want to be my dad.”
@ 29m 17s
August 31, 2025
The Power of Forgiveness
Forgiveness is a personal journey that allows us to let go of anger and resentment.
“Forgiveness wasn't about him. It was about me.”
@ 34m 54s
August 31, 2025
Compassion as a Healing Force
Feeling seen and acknowledged is essential for healing, especially for those with traumatic pasts.
“When you feel seen and loved and acknowledged, that's really where healing begins.”
@ 45m 33s
August 31, 2025
Vulnerability in the Barber Chair
A barber shares how vulnerability creates a safe space for men to open up.
“The most gangster thing you can do is be vulnerable.”
@ 55m 04s
August 31, 2025
Creating Safe Spaces for Conversations
Barbers foster an environment where men feel safe to share their struggles and emotions.
“Thank you for seeing me like really seeing me.”
@ 01h 00m 07s
August 31, 2025
The Power of Storytelling
Sharing personal stories can transform pain into a global movement.
“Son, tell our story well.”
@ 01h 11m 37s
August 31, 2025
Healing Conversations
A heartfelt conversation with his mother before her passing about forgiveness and healing.
“Forgive him not for his sake, but forgive him for you.”
@ 01h 14m 53s
August 31, 2025
Healing is Hard Work
Healing is not easy; it’s one of the hardest things you will ever do.
“Healing is as masculine as it gets.”
@ 01h 29m 44s
August 31, 2025
Legacy of Emotional Literacy
The hope is to create a generation of emotionally literate men to reduce violence.
“Emotional literacy is lacking.”
@ 01h 32m 24s
August 31, 2025

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Family Healing11:37
Community Inaction20:02
Public Apology34:30
Compassionate Perspective36:08
Hair Art Promotion50:29
Mother's Legacy1:11:37
Body Shame1:22:07
Cycle Breakers1:31:52

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

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August 31, 2025

01:17

She Is Not Your Rehab: Matt Brown grew up surrounded by violence, trauma, and shame #shorts

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02:30:16

K’Lee: From Pop Star to Survivor – Abuse, Trauma & Resilience

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February 11, 2026

01:55:30

Disturbing Reality Of Investigating Thousands Of Crime Scenes

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01:32:19

Honey Hireme‑Smiler: Rugby Icon on Juggling Life, Love & Cancer Care