00:00:00
When we watched Once We Warriors growing
00:00:01
up, we thought that was a comedy. We
00:00:02
would compare Week's black eyes to mom's
00:00:05
black eyes. Oh, mom's black eyes are way
00:00:06
bigger than Biff's. Like, I know like
00:00:08
dad's way crazier than Jake the Mus
00:00:10
because he was derogatory, abusive
00:00:13
behavior was just a constant part of my
00:00:15
childhood. Um, one of my experiences of
00:00:18
childhood trauma was being stripped
00:00:19
naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked
00:00:22
at because of how my body looked.
00:00:24
Whenever cousins and family members came
00:00:26
around, if they wanted a good laugh, my
00:00:28
mom would just yell out to my siblings,
00:00:30
"Go get Matt, come in, strip them naked,
00:00:32
and just laugh. Laugh at me and my
00:00:33
genitals."
00:00:35
The push back I got from my community
00:00:36
speaking up at 15 was massive. Bro,
00:00:38
don't talk about this, bro. You're
00:00:39
bringing dishonor to our families,
00:00:42
especially your parents. So, it was
00:00:43
either speak up or take my own life. My
00:00:45
mom held a machete to my neck. And she
00:00:47
said, "You're not leaving." And I said,
00:00:48
"Well, mom, either you kill me now or
00:00:50
I'm going." And then her arm just
00:00:53
dropped and she just cried. And I think
00:00:55
she she she cried because she knew she
00:00:57
felt that she had failed.
00:00:59
>> Had she failed?
00:01:04
No one's asked me that.
00:01:07
How do you reflect on her life?
00:01:10
[Music]
00:01:13
Sad.
00:01:15
[Music]
00:01:18
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:01:20
the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:22
there's a top performance in New
00:01:23
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:25
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:27
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:29
hole in one in
00:01:32
it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:34
performance going?
00:01:35
>> Top tier.
00:01:36
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:38
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:39
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:41
investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.
00:01:44
Generate. Putting performance first.
00:01:53
Matt Brown, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:55
>> Thank you, brother. Thank you for having
00:01:56
me. Massive fan.
00:01:58
>> Actually,
00:01:59
>> honestly, I followed you for years and I
00:02:01
always seen your guests and I just
00:02:02
think, man, be cool to be on that guy's
00:02:04
podcast one day.
00:02:05
>> Oh, man. I was so pleased we connected.
00:02:07
This isn't um your first time in in the
00:02:09
studio here. Uh because you've been in
00:02:11
here to record a couple of your own
00:02:13
podcasts.
00:02:14
>> Um
00:02:15
>> Yeah. And I've just been in awe of
00:02:17
having you having you in here because um
00:02:19
I don't know you you just have this um
00:02:22
this calm about you like this this this
00:02:24
presence like you're the coolest guy in
00:02:26
any room you go into but you you don't
00:02:28
even need to speak or do anything. You
00:02:29
just sit there and you've got this
00:02:31
presence about you. It's hard to hard to
00:02:33
explain.
00:02:34
>> No, thank you bro. I try I try I try and
00:02:36
be the quietest guy in the room.
00:02:38
>> Yeah. Are you are you introverted or shy
00:02:40
or is it just because you know you um
00:02:42
your wife Sarah like she's she sort of
00:02:44
does the speaking. She's a ball of
00:02:45
energy. Um, no. Yeah, I'm a I'm a real
00:02:47
introvert, so I like my own space and I
00:02:49
just I'm comfortable being quiet. Like,
00:02:51
I don't need to try and impress anyone
00:02:53
or say anything to fill in the gaps. I
00:02:55
like quietness. So,
00:02:59
>> I think it takes quite a lot of
00:03:00
self-confidence to be like that, like to
00:03:02
not have to be, you know,
00:03:04
>> I think I'm just I'm comfortable in my
00:03:06
own skin. Um, I know who I am and that's
00:03:09
taking years and years of work obviously
00:03:10
to come to that place. And I still I
00:03:12
still find myself finding myself, you
00:03:15
know, it's it's a journey. Yeah. Not a
00:03:18
destination.
00:03:19
>> How old are you now?
00:03:20
>> 39, brother.
00:03:21
>> Yeah, mate. I'm 52. It's it's ongoing
00:03:23
all the time and there there's always
00:03:25
work to do. Uh always self-improvement,
00:03:28
you know. There's always room to be
00:03:29
better. It's cool. It's an exciting part
00:03:31
of the journey of life.
00:03:32
>> 100%.
00:03:33
>> Yeah. So, I got this book off um Mighty
00:03:36
Ape over the weekend.
00:03:37
>> A
00:03:38
>> She is not your rehab, which is
00:03:39
phenomenal.
00:03:40
I've not given you a book. I've come in
00:03:41
here a few times. I've never given you
00:03:42
one.
00:03:43
>> Sorry, bro.
00:03:45
>> I know. We were looking around for it
00:03:46
the other day. I said, I'm sure Matt
00:03:48
left a book here, but I
00:03:49
>> I'm pretty sure I did the first time I
00:03:50
got here. But
00:03:50
>> yeah,
00:03:52
>> there's this um this children's book.
00:03:53
This is This is not yours to carry,
00:03:55
which I've seen all over uh Instagram
00:03:57
over the weekend. This is brand new.
00:03:58
>> Yes, we just launched it this week here
00:04:00
in Tamaki Makoto. to our brand new
00:04:02
children's book which is targeted at um
00:04:04
children u mainly for those who are
00:04:05
living in homes of violence but really
00:04:07
it's targeted at any child who wants to
00:04:09
learn how to regulate their emotions
00:04:11
>> and your your daughter um Oshana she did
00:04:14
the uh the illustrations
00:04:15
>> yes our oldest girl illustrated this
00:04:17
whole book with her mom and writing so
00:04:19
this was a labor of love many nights of
00:04:22
work downstairs drawing my wife um not
00:04:25
happy with some sketches and then she
00:04:27
going back to the drawing board um so it
00:04:29
was definitely a labor of love She
00:04:30
thought it was just going to be a few
00:04:31
pictures and it ended up turning into a
00:04:33
children's book. So,
00:04:34
>> mate, it's um it's a beautiful book.
00:04:36
>> Thank you, brother.
00:04:37
>> Excuse me. And I'm sure it's going to be
00:04:38
a great resource as well.
00:04:40
>> How can people get hold of it?
00:04:41
>> Uh they can jump onto our website she is
00:04:43
knowhab.com and um it's up there
00:04:45
available. You can actually go on there
00:04:46
and donate a book. So, we're working
00:04:48
alongside many organizations, schools,
00:04:50
refugees to try and get this book into
00:04:52
the hands of children who actually need
00:04:54
it. So, if you can go on our website and
00:04:55
click on the donate button, we can get
00:04:57
those books out. So, um you're Ocean
00:04:59
Oceana's dad, but not her biological um
00:05:02
father. So, she she she came as part of
00:05:05
the relationship. How old is she now?
00:05:07
>> She is 22 years old.
00:05:08
>> Is she the one that that was not allowed
00:05:10
any sleepovers?
00:05:11
>> No.
00:05:12
>> Never last. Well, none of our kids have
00:05:14
allowed sleepovers. We got two younger
00:05:16
ones who are age 10 and seven. And so we
00:05:18
always tell our oldest girl, you make
00:05:20
sure you tell your little siblings how
00:05:22
how the go is because yeah, I think
00:05:24
look, working in this sector, working in
00:05:26
this field of family violence, sexual
00:05:27
abuse, trauma, um we see it more often
00:05:31
than we we don't want to, you know, um
00:05:34
the the harm that happens behind closed
00:05:35
doors. And it always comes from
00:05:37
unfortunately people that we know,
00:05:39
family members, friends of the family.
00:05:41
And so my children they're not allowed
00:05:43
sleepovers.
00:05:44
>> So
00:05:46
>> I mean, who really needs a sleepover
00:05:47
anyway?
00:05:48
you can go hang out your friends, but
00:05:49
when you when it's time to close your
00:05:50
eyes, you can come back home and close
00:05:51
your eyes.
00:05:52
>> Yeah, that's a that's a good point. I um
00:05:55
yeah, I heard that over the weekend on a
00:05:56
couple of podcasts you you've been in
00:05:57
and it um it made me really upset
00:06:00
actually that it's that it's that rife
00:06:02
>> and I suppose this is this is like part
00:06:04
of my privilege where it's just not it's
00:06:06
not something that was um sort of on my
00:06:07
radar at all growing up. It's it's
00:06:09
heartbreaking, mate.
00:06:10
>> It is heartbreaking. I mean, my wife's
00:06:11
got a a good friend who's a GP and she
00:06:14
comes across stories like this all the
00:06:15
time. And she said to us, you know, if
00:06:17
you if you removed um sleepovers, you
00:06:20
would remove about 80% of the cases that
00:06:22
she has to deal with of sexual abuse
00:06:24
when it comes to sexual assault.
00:06:26
>> So,
00:06:26
>> it's alarming. It's alarming. And and
00:06:29
yeah, in one of these podcasts, I heard
00:06:30
you you say like it's it's not even if
00:06:32
you know the the nuclear family in the
00:06:34
house, you don't know what visitors
00:06:35
they're going to have in the house as
00:06:36
well.
00:06:37
Yeah.
00:06:37
>> And then you involve alcohol, substance,
00:06:39
you know, in the house. You just never
00:06:41
know.
00:06:41
>> Yeah.
00:06:42
>> I mean, we went to pick up my daughter
00:06:44
who was who went to a friend's party.
00:06:45
She was in high school
00:06:47
>> 16 and she refused to come to the car.
00:06:49
Um, but we checked in with her parents
00:06:50
and the mom invited us. Lovely. As she
00:06:52
said, you come in for a drink. We're
00:06:53
just having a few G&Ts. Um, but then I
00:06:56
seen all these other people in the
00:06:57
house. You know, it was a party and I
00:06:58
was like, well, I said, where's the
00:07:00
girls? Where's the kids? And she said,
00:07:01
oh, they're somewhere in the back. I'm
00:07:03
okay. The fact you don't know where the
00:07:04
kids are right now in the situation
00:07:05
while everyone's drinking um is a red
00:07:08
flag to me.
00:07:10
>> Yeah. And and you've got a very good
00:07:11
reason to be this protective and h have
00:07:14
um these red flags. Um yeah, there's a
00:07:18
there's a lot to talk about. Um but I'm
00:07:20
also aware of the fact that you've done
00:07:21
a lot of podcasts. So you you talking
00:07:25
about the old stuff and the old the old
00:07:26
wounds. Is it is it hard for you to talk
00:07:28
about or
00:07:30
>> No. Um cuz I mean it's part of my story.
00:07:32
It's not to me it's not so much
00:07:33
re-triggering or retraumatizing myself
00:07:36
because it is what it is and I
00:07:37
continuously do the work um to navigate
00:07:40
those my story but I also have amazing
00:07:43
supervisors and counselors and
00:07:45
therapists who I have on hand if I need
00:07:47
to offload and let some steam off.
00:07:51
>> Okay. Yeah. Let's go back to your
00:07:53
childhood. So earliest memories.
00:07:55
>> Earliest memories um growing up in my
00:07:57
household. I mean the first thing that
00:07:58
comes to my mind is violence, chaos. Um,
00:08:02
my first experience of family violence
00:08:04
in my household was Christmas that I
00:08:05
have a viv vivid memory of. My father
00:08:08
and mother got into some argument. I
00:08:10
don't remember what the argument was.
00:08:12
And then all I remember was this
00:08:13
Christmas tree, our Christmas tree,
00:08:15
which only had a few lights on it, a few
00:08:17
balls, colorful balls. Um, was lifted up
00:08:19
in the air and then tossed at my mother.
00:08:22
And then I remember my mom lying on the
00:08:24
ground in tears. and my two older
00:08:27
brothers um who are not much older than
00:08:29
me um jumped on mom and covered her from
00:08:31
our father. Um so that was my first me
00:08:34
of of violence. Um my happiest memories
00:08:37
of my childhood was would probably just
00:08:39
playing with my my brothers, my
00:08:40
siblings, you know, just like every
00:08:42
other Kiwi family, Polynesian family,
00:08:44
rugby, rugby league. Um but violence was
00:08:48
the constant memory right throughout my
00:08:50
childhood.
00:08:51
>> Like what sort of frequency? every if
00:08:54
not every every day, every other day. Um
00:08:57
we would often be at women's refuge. I
00:08:59
had visited every woman's refuge home in
00:09:01
Christ Church where we grew up in. I was
00:09:03
born here in Oakuckland, but yeah,
00:09:04
raised in Christ Church. Um you know, at
00:09:08
all our rugby games, my old man would be
00:09:10
standing on the sideline with his big
00:09:12
trench coat holding his can of beer. Um
00:09:14
Foster was the the the brand that he
00:09:17
always drank.
00:09:18
>> Oh, the Australian one.
00:09:19
>> Yeah, the Australian one with the big F.
00:09:20
The blue can with the big F. Um, and
00:09:22
it'll just be, you know, colorful
00:09:25
language, verbal abuse, um, at the
00:09:27
referee, at us. One try was never good
00:09:29
enough. Um, two tries was never good
00:09:31
enough. Um, so just, yeah, derogatory,
00:09:35
abusive behavior was just a constant
00:09:37
part of my childhood. And honestly, like
00:09:40
me and my siblings now, we sit in a in a
00:09:42
table and we talk like how did we all
00:09:44
not end up, you know, incarcerated?
00:09:46
growing up in the childhood that we grew
00:09:48
up in the environment that we grew up
00:09:49
like it's sometimes we sit there and
00:09:50
laugh and our partners and our wives are
00:09:52
are looking at us like dumbfounded like
00:09:54
how do you guys find this funny
00:09:56
>> and we're just like well it's either we
00:09:57
laugh about or we just sit here and cry
00:09:59
but we've done many years of crying you
00:10:01
know and wallowing in our pain and
00:10:03
trauma and we just got to this point
00:10:05
where no longer are we going to be a
00:10:07
victim of our story. this is not going
00:10:09
to ever define us but is what we do with
00:10:11
this pain and how we transform this
00:10:14
>> um to move us forward.
00:10:17
>> Yes. So it's a big family. So um let me
00:10:20
know if I've got this right. So there's
00:10:22
like five boys and four girls from a
00:10:26
previous
00:10:27
>> So three girls from a previous
00:10:29
relationship um on mom's side.
00:10:31
>> Yeah.
00:10:31
>> Um I had another sister, younger sister,
00:10:33
but we lost her um at birth. So, nine of
00:10:36
us all up, but five of us um fullblooded
00:10:39
brothers living in the same household.
00:10:42
>> Where were you in the birth order?
00:10:44
>> I'm the middle I'm number three out of
00:10:46
the boys.
00:10:47
>> So, that middle child syndrome
00:10:49
>> I kind of had waving around my head
00:10:50
growing up.
00:10:51
>> Yeah. You know, I wondered that cuz I
00:10:54
wondered if you were the eldest in the
00:10:55
family because um you know, you just
00:10:56
have these real sort of leadership
00:10:57
qualities.
00:10:58
>> Thank you. No, not that.
00:11:00
>> Um what about your four four brothers?
00:11:02
How how are they? Are they they all
00:11:03
good?
00:11:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we're all very
00:11:06
connected. Um, we lost my mom 4 years
00:11:08
ago to cancer, which was probably the
00:11:10
hardest time for all of us. Um, cuz she
00:11:12
was the gel, the glue that put us all
00:11:14
together. Um, but after losing mom, it
00:11:17
really, we were really confronted to
00:11:19
have these hard, we've always had hard
00:11:21
conversations in our family. Like every
00:11:22
Christmas, we'll come together and have,
00:11:23
you know, tears and, you know, moping
00:11:27
around just about our upbringing and how
00:11:29
mom dad could be better, especially our
00:11:30
father, you know, wanting him to be
00:11:32
better. But nothing ever really changed
00:11:34
until we lost mom. We kind of got back
00:11:36
together and said, "Man, we need to
00:11:37
really heal together as a family
00:11:39
because, you know, we don't want to be
00:11:42
passing the anger and the the violence
00:11:44
and not so much physical violence
00:11:45
anymore. It's more verbal stuff. You
00:11:47
know, the overreaction or the
00:11:49
dysregulation that we would often see
00:11:51
when we were together. I think just that
00:11:53
trauma knowing that this was so normal,
00:11:55
you know, us getting upset or just one
00:11:57
sibling saying one thing that will set
00:11:58
off another sibling, that violence and
00:12:00
chaos was just so normal for us that we
00:12:01
just had to really um nail it on the
00:12:04
head and confront it. And so it's been
00:12:05
beautiful. We're all in good places. Um
00:12:08
my baby brother was in the NRL. He just
00:12:11
retired recently. Um
00:12:14
>> what team?
00:12:15
>> He's played for a few teams. He played
00:12:16
for He started off at the Sharks. uh won
00:12:19
a premiership with them. Then went over
00:12:21
to the doggies. Then went over to the
00:12:24
roost. No, not the roosters. St. George.
00:12:27
Um and then I think where did he finish?
00:12:29
I can't remember where he finished.
00:12:31
>> Unreal. What's his name?
00:12:32
>> Final Brown.
00:12:33
>> Incredible.
00:12:33
>> Yeah. So he played for the Kiwis in
00:12:34
Samour. He's in the tour Samour team for
00:12:36
the World Cup that came second.
00:12:39
>> So
00:12:41
>> how how is it that you all turned out so
00:12:43
like well adjusted, you know, happy and
00:12:45
healthy?
00:12:47
I think I mean we I mean I will give
00:12:49
credit I only can speak for myself. Um I
00:12:52
give credit to the people in my life. I
00:12:54
think uh I've had beautiful superheroes
00:12:57
who have come along my life and and
00:12:59
really shown me empathy and compassion
00:13:01
for my environment cuz I've been
00:13:02
speaking up about my story of family
00:13:04
violence and you know suicide ideation
00:13:07
since I was 15.
00:13:09
>> You know 39 years old now. I look back
00:13:11
and I think, man, like the the slack,
00:13:14
the push back I got from my community
00:13:15
speaking up at 15 was massive. You know,
00:13:18
bro, don't talk about this [ __ ] This
00:13:20
happens to all of us, especially in our
00:13:21
Polynesian community. All my island boys
00:13:23
were saying, bro, you're bringing
00:13:24
dishonor to our families, especially
00:13:26
your parents. Like, we don't talk about
00:13:27
this stuff. It's happening to us, too,
00:13:29
but don't talk about it. So, it was
00:13:31
either speak up or take my own life. I
00:13:34
chose to speak speak up, and I'm I'm
00:13:37
glad I did. I'm glad I did and do
00:13:39
because I've learned that my story is
00:13:42
not unique.
00:13:43
>> Yeah, I'm glad you did too. Not just
00:13:45
because you're still here, but because
00:13:46
you've made such a profound impact as
00:13:48
thousands of other people as well.
00:13:49
>> Thank you, bro.
00:13:51
>> Were there any glimpses of joy in your
00:13:53
childhood?
00:13:54
>> Honestly, the only times of joy was
00:13:58
probably with my siblings. There were
00:13:59
moments of joy of seeing mom and dad
00:14:01
happy. um you know after a Friday where
00:14:04
dad will you know start when he'll pick
00:14:06
up his first can but we knew it wouldn't
00:14:08
be too long after that um where a fight
00:14:11
would break out. Um so there were like
00:14:14
glimpses of joy but it would all it
00:14:16
would soon be overthrown with chaos and
00:14:19
violence and fighting
00:14:21
>> for you and your brothers as well or was
00:14:22
it mainly your mom that was the the
00:14:25
target of his anger?
00:14:26
>> All of us but mainly mom. Yeah,
00:14:29
>> mainly mom and mom would try and often
00:14:31
protect us, you know, she'll step in.
00:14:33
Um, especially for my older siblings and
00:14:35
for me just watching and witnessing, you
00:14:37
know, the violence that was happening,
00:14:38
mom would always step in and when mom
00:14:40
would step in, then she would get the
00:14:41
brunt of it.
00:14:42
>> Was it always alcohol fueled?
00:14:44
>> Yeah, always alcohol.
00:14:52
Yeah. I mean, um, your mom even made
00:14:54
jokes that alcohol was his second wife
00:14:57
or Was that the joke?
00:14:59
>> Yeah.
00:14:59
>> Yeah. But it's like it's not it's not
00:15:01
funny at all. And it seems like it would
00:15:02
have been such an easy fix, right?
00:15:05
>> I mean, I get it. Like I mean on this
00:15:07
journey of of healing and and and
00:15:09
forgiving my old man, you know, I don't
00:15:11
want to paint my father as this monster
00:15:13
because when you understand
00:15:14
intergenerational trauma, you know, he
00:15:17
came from the islands with little to no,
00:15:19
you couldn't speak English, little to no
00:15:21
education, came in the 60s, lived
00:15:24
through the dawn raids, racism, was
00:15:26
running strife obviously, but you know,
00:15:27
we needed the islanders to work here in
00:15:29
this country.
00:15:30
>> Um, and so my father had his own
00:15:31
struggles and so his only outlet and
00:15:34
release was alcohol. you know, and I'd
00:15:36
always ask the question, well, these
00:15:37
other islanders that are not drinking,
00:15:39
you know, why couldn't you be one of
00:15:40
those islanders? But obviously, for
00:15:42
whatever reason, my father chose to pick
00:15:43
up the drink, and this became his,
00:15:46
>> quote for quote, his second wife.
00:15:48
>> Yeah.
00:15:49
>> What are your recollections as a as a
00:15:51
young fellow of woman's refuge?
00:15:53
>> Cold. Um, and the funny thing, even
00:15:56
though there was no violence, like we
00:15:58
were there, it was a safe home to get us
00:16:00
away from the chaos, we were so used to
00:16:03
the violence, we wanted to go back. like
00:16:04
it's it wasn't home. Like these sheets
00:16:06
that we were sleeping in that were
00:16:08
neatly folded, our beds were well done,
00:16:10
but it's it didn't feel like home. I
00:16:13
think we were just so accustomed to the
00:16:14
chaos that we wanted to go back home.
00:16:17
Even if dad was there, we wanted to go
00:16:18
back home. And that cycle just carried
00:16:20
on.
00:16:20
>> Yeah. Cuz chaos was just your normal.
00:16:22
Yeah. What about your relationship with
00:16:24
police?
00:16:26
>> Didn't like the police at all.
00:16:28
>> Yeah.
00:16:28
>> Um especially cuz I mean my recollection
00:16:30
was when they would come over. now
00:16:33
understand that they were trying to
00:16:34
protect mom and us, but it was just the
00:16:35
way that they, you know, placed their
00:16:37
hands on our dad. You know, they were
00:16:39
aggressive to dad. Um, and and now I
00:16:41
look back now, well, why wouldn't you?
00:16:43
Because my dad was, every time the
00:16:44
police came, it would be him cursing at
00:16:46
the police, telling him to f off. Um,
00:16:49
but yeah, we just didn't like them.
00:16:52
>> It's an interesting insight. I I asked
00:16:54
that and I asked that about Women's
00:16:54
Refuge as well, cuz I wondered if like
00:16:56
as soon as you get to Women's Refuge,
00:16:57
it's just like, you know, I can breathe
00:16:59
now. Or when the police arrive, you're
00:17:01
like, "Oh, thank God. the chaos is going
00:17:02
to end. But
00:17:04
>> yeah.
00:17:04
>> Yeah. Well, when the police we my mom
00:17:06
would often ring pretend to ring the
00:17:08
police to try and
00:17:11
calm my father down. So whenever he seen
00:17:13
my mom, you know, pick up the phone,
00:17:15
say, "I'm going to ring the police now
00:17:16
and pretend to dial 111," my dad would
00:17:19
just chill out. And so often she
00:17:20
wouldn't ring the police. So we we knew
00:17:23
that it was really really bad when the
00:17:25
police would show up, you know, but
00:17:27
often mom would just use the police as a
00:17:28
way to calm him down.
00:17:30
>> Yeah. And what did your childhood teach
00:17:33
you about love?
00:17:35
>> It taught me that chaos and violence and
00:17:38
love can all coexist.
00:17:41
[Music]
00:17:45
>> When when you look back now um like as a
00:17:49
man,
00:17:51
are you pissed off at your community at
00:17:52
all? like you know your neighbors um
00:17:55
church congregation teachers or whatever
00:17:57
like that there was no one there to save
00:17:59
this little boy.
00:18:01
>> Yep.
00:18:03
Yep. When I when I sit I have these
00:18:06
conversations with my brother and this
00:18:07
is I don't really talk often about this.
00:18:09
I don't think I've ever talked about
00:18:10
this publicly but 100%. I think you guys
00:18:16
knew the violence that was happening. I
00:18:17
remember going to church um in one
00:18:20
church hall. It was a Catholic church we
00:18:22
attended which is just down the road
00:18:24
from where we lived. And I remember um
00:18:27
the whole congregation came out running
00:18:29
and screaming and people were in tears
00:18:32
and there were a bunch of ladies um
00:18:35
covering this one lady and as this one
00:18:37
lady who came out who was obviously
00:18:39
hovered by these other women she looked
00:18:41
up and it was my mom you know just blood
00:18:43
coming down her face and I just stood
00:18:45
there like oh you know it didn't even
00:18:48
wasn't in tears but I was just like this
00:18:49
is now happening here at church. I would
00:18:52
have been about six or seven. But I just
00:18:54
remember we just went back home. We went
00:18:56
back home with our old man. Mom and dad
00:18:58
got into an argument over there and I
00:18:59
don't know what happened.
00:19:02
But um I remember my auntie telling us
00:19:03
kids to come into the church and as we
00:19:05
walked in and I just remember seeing
00:19:07
blood all over the the walls.
00:19:11
But in an hour's time we were back home.
00:19:13
We were back home with mom and dad, you
00:19:14
know, and the fighting carried on. Then
00:19:16
the police came over that night. Um,
00:19:19
but I just thought, wouldn't any of you
00:19:21
guys come over with us? But no one was
00:19:23
there, you know. Wouldn't one of you
00:19:24
guys have taken us home with you or, you
00:19:26
know, do something? Stepped in,
00:19:28
separated my mom and dad, but no, we
00:19:30
were just back at home. So, am I pissed
00:19:32
off at my community back then? Of
00:19:34
course. Um, I'm pissed off at people who
00:19:37
hear the violence in our communities,
00:19:38
but refuse to say anything or step in,
00:19:41
you know, because those children who are
00:19:43
living in those homes are our children.
00:19:45
you know, those children become men who
00:19:49
perpetrate violence, who perpetrate
00:19:51
crime on our streets. They're children
00:19:53
who are doing ram raids, um, stealing,
00:19:56
all those things. It affects all of us.
00:19:58
And so, me personally, how you I'm still
00:20:02
pissed off at those people.
00:20:03
>> Why do you think no one intervened?
00:20:05
>> Shame, culturally, you know, the stigma
00:20:08
around it, you know, out of out of mind,
00:20:11
out of sight, out of sight, out of mind.
00:20:13
But the thing that was in sight, you
00:20:15
know, but y'all just chose to ignore it.
00:20:18
Um, and the cost of that are now men
00:20:23
who are angry. I mean, I I use my anger
00:20:26
for good and try and channel and do the
00:20:28
work that we're doing. You know, I am
00:20:30
angry, but I'm using it for good. There
00:20:32
are other many men out that I work with
00:20:34
around this country, around the world,
00:20:35
who are so angry, they're not channeling
00:20:37
it for good. If anything, that's been
00:20:39
now transmitted onto their partners and
00:20:41
children whom they claim to love.
00:20:46
Did did your dad sort of wear a mask at
00:20:48
all and they like he saved his worst
00:20:50
behavior for the family like in the
00:20:51
confines of your house or
00:20:53
>> 100%.
00:20:53
>> Yeah.
00:20:54
>> 100%. I mean a lot of our culture I mean
00:20:57
not just specifically our culture but in
00:21:00
many cultures it's all about face. It's
00:21:02
how you portray yourself in front of
00:21:04
society in front of your workmates in
00:21:06
front of your colleagues. But there are
00:21:08
many hurting men, hurting children,
00:21:10
hurting boys underneath these grown as
00:21:12
men who are just bleeding all over women
00:21:15
and children who never cut them. My
00:21:17
father was one of those, you know, in in
00:21:19
church. He was this, you know,
00:21:20
uprighteous man who
00:21:23
remained sober on Sundays. Um, but from
00:21:26
Monday to Saturday was chaos.
00:21:30
>> Yeah. What's your relationship like with
00:21:31
religion now?
00:21:33
H
00:21:35
it's
00:21:37
I wouldn't say so much religion like the
00:21:40
the
00:21:44
how do I put this into words
00:21:49
church as an institution I don't have a
00:21:51
relationship with
00:21:53
>> um but as someone who has faith in a
00:21:56
higher being I I would say I I still am
00:22:00
in touch with my spiritual side. Um but
00:22:04
in regards to giving money to a
00:22:06
building, um that's yeah, I'm not
00:22:09
>> not getting you. No, no, no. Fair
00:22:11
enough. If I met you as a teenager, what
00:22:14
sort of guy would I have met?
00:22:16
>> You would have met a a quiet boy.
00:22:19
>> Really?
00:22:19
>> Yeah. A shut down boy.
00:22:21
>> Yeah. And even now like I I mean I
00:22:23
travel all the country speaking about
00:22:24
this and I I meet friends who childhood
00:22:27
friends who come up to me and they
00:22:28
always say, "Man, we had no idea that
00:22:30
you were just so like loving and kind
00:22:32
and quiet. We had no idea that you're
00:22:34
going through what you're going
00:22:36
through." Um but you know, you check my
00:22:38
story with my siblings, this ain't made
00:22:41
up. Like this is stuff that happened in
00:22:43
the household. You know, all when all
00:22:45
five boys can our stories all correlate,
00:22:48
you know, all connect to one another.
00:22:50
Like this was our real life story. This
00:22:52
ain't made up. Like when we watch Once
00:22:53
We Warriors growing up,
00:22:54
>> we thought that was a comedy. We would
00:22:56
compare Bethy's black eyes to mom's
00:22:58
black eyes.
00:22:59
>> Our mom's black eyes are way bigger than
00:23:01
Be like I know. Like dad's way crazier
00:23:03
than Jake the Mus because he was our dad
00:23:05
was out the gate.
00:23:10
>> When did you discover Tupac?
00:23:12
>> I think my older brothers.
00:23:13
>> So my my older brothers were all into
00:23:15
the whole hip-hop gangster rap.
00:23:17
>> Yeah. Um, so naturally that was the
00:23:19
music that I listened to growing up.
00:23:21
>> Yeah. So like teenage years.
00:23:22
>> Yeah. Well, I mean right from my
00:23:24
childhood, you know, I grew up in the
00:23:26
80s listening to hip-hop. Um, and for me
00:23:29
it wasn't so much the Pretty Girls and
00:23:31
the flash cars and them hanging around
00:23:34
spar pools and video clips. It was their
00:23:36
stories of pain and trauma that
00:23:38
resonated. So I've always loved the the
00:23:40
lyric the the words um lyricism the art
00:23:43
form of lyricism through hip-hop. To me,
00:23:46
that was another window to life. Most of
00:23:48
us brown kids who grew up in Alteor, our
00:23:50
heroes were the All Blacks, you know,
00:23:51
John Alom, Michael Jones, that was the
00:23:53
era I grew up watching.
00:23:54
>> Unfortunately for me, my country club
00:23:56
was KFC. And so I never excelled in
00:23:58
sports like my my siblings.
00:24:00
>> What your country club was?
00:24:03
>> I love my Kentucky Fried Chicken too
00:24:05
much.
00:24:05
>> Oh, who doesn't? What are those secret
00:24:07
herbs and spices? Yeah.
00:24:09
>> Um, yeah. Well, I mean, you Tupac, you
00:24:12
know, he's he's not your your your
00:24:14
regular sort of hip-hop artist, is he?
00:24:15
Like, he's a poet. Like, he's a genius.
00:24:17
Are there any particular lines or lyrics
00:24:18
that sort of kept you going?
00:24:20
>> Oh, changes. His songs changes. Um, you
00:24:24
know, just the early Tupac before he
00:24:27
joined Death Row and became, you know,
00:24:28
this angry man. And again, if you look
00:24:30
at him, he was a man. If you look at
00:24:32
him, the angry Tupac gangster rapper,
00:24:35
>> there was a little boy in there who had
00:24:37
no father present. You know, he was
00:24:39
looking for love and so he found that
00:24:40
love through this label with Sug Knight
00:24:42
and Defro.
00:24:43
>> Um, but it was his pain through his
00:24:46
lyrics that really resonated with me,
00:24:47
>> you know.
00:24:50
>> And you left home when you were 15.
00:24:53
>> Yeah. Can you remember
00:24:55
um like the the last time your dad
00:24:58
raised a hand at you?
00:25:02
Great question. Um, it would have been
00:25:06
when I left home, we were home for
00:25:07
Christmas and he was just off his face
00:25:09
drinking drunk. Um,
00:25:13
and he started going off at mom and I
00:25:16
remember standing in front of mom in the
00:25:17
kitchen on Christmas Eve and I said,
00:25:20
"Nah, not happening."
00:25:23
And then he just looked at me, "You
00:25:24
[ __ ] move out of the Lloyd." And I
00:25:25
said, "Not happening, mate." And that
00:25:28
was it. He just walked away. Um, I've
00:25:32
never laid a hand on my father. Many
00:25:33
times I've wanted to, but I never have.
00:25:36
Um,
00:25:36
>> what is that? Is that like a a respect
00:25:38
thing or it's you're just a big bigger
00:25:40
person?
00:25:41
>> A respect thing, but also respect for
00:25:43
myself.
00:25:44
>> Like I've I pride myself in regulating
00:25:46
my emotions.
00:25:48
>> Um,
00:25:49
yeah, I I pride myself in doing the work
00:25:51
to regulate my emotions. And I always
00:25:53
try and see when I'm in that
00:25:55
environment. There's been cases where in
00:25:56
my neighborhood where I hear domestic
00:25:58
violence and I, you know, I step in and
00:26:00
knock on the door and I just stay
00:26:02
regulated, you know, and I I try and see
00:26:03
beyond the man who is angry or causing
00:26:06
the havoc and just speak to the the
00:26:09
inner child that I'm standing in front
00:26:11
of because grown men do not throw
00:26:14
tantrums.
00:26:14
>> Children throw tantrums. You know,
00:26:16
children are allowed to throw tant
00:26:17
tantrums because they're still learning
00:26:19
how to regulate their emotions. So, if
00:26:20
you don't know how to regulate your
00:26:21
emotions, I'm now going to speak to the
00:26:23
little child in front of me.
00:26:24
not down at them but you know speak to
00:26:27
them of adoha and love and I always see
00:26:30
it works.
00:26:32
>> So when you leave home at 15
00:26:34
like what do you do day one? It's that's
00:26:37
it's a painfully young age to be leaving
00:26:38
home right?
00:26:39
>> Yeah man I remember I told my mom the
00:26:42
day before I left that I was leaving and
00:26:45
my mom said no you're not. Um and then
00:26:48
the next day I had my bags packed. I had
00:26:52
my one duffel bag, um, sports bag, had
00:26:56
all my clothes in it. There weren't many
00:26:58
clothes. And I remember saying to mom,
00:27:00
"I'm leaving today." The boys were
00:27:01
outside. My flat mates were outside
00:27:04
ready to pick me up. And um, my mom held
00:27:07
a machete to my neck. He said, "You're
00:27:09
not leaving." And I said, "Well, mom,
00:27:10
either you kill me now or I'm going."
00:27:13
And then her arm just dropped and she
00:27:15
just cried. And I think she she she
00:27:18
cried because she knew she felt that she
00:27:20
had failed, you know, like why is my
00:27:22
15year-old sudden leaving home at 15
00:27:24
years old? Um because home wasn't safe
00:27:27
anymore, you know. So
00:27:29
>> had she failed.
00:27:34
No one's asked me that.
00:27:37
I think she felt she failed. I don't
00:27:39
believe she failed because I I I try and
00:27:41
believe that mom did the best with what
00:27:43
she knew with what she had,
00:27:45
>> you know. I and I would often ask mom,
00:27:47
"Why don't you leave dad? Like, he's
00:27:49
going to eventually kill you, you know,
00:27:51
going in and out of refuge, lining up at
00:27:53
the food bank, sleeping in the car with
00:27:54
my siblings. Like, dad's going to kill
00:27:56
you one day. Why don't you just leave
00:27:57
him?" And my mom's response was always,
00:27:59
"Son, what else can I do? I don't have
00:28:01
any other options. I don't have any
00:28:03
money." You know, she relied on the
00:28:05
system and the system failed us many
00:28:07
times. And so I really believe I choose
00:28:11
to believe that mom tried her best with
00:28:13
what she had with what she knew. Um and
00:28:16
so I don't hold it against her that she
00:28:19
failed, you know.
00:28:20
>> Yeah. And I don't know. I find the older
00:28:23
I get, the more I actually know, the
00:28:25
less I know on the big scheme of things.
00:28:27
And nothing's ever nothing's ever that
00:28:29
black and white. No.
00:28:30
>> Um and if you if you're heavily
00:28:32
religious, you know, may maybe you
00:28:35
leaving a marriage is just not an
00:28:37
option. Yeah, exactly. And and for
00:28:39
women, some women who have left, I work
00:28:40
with men who work with Faro who families
00:28:43
where women have left and
00:28:47
the the the
00:28:50
consequences to that have been life,
00:28:53
have been death,
00:28:55
you know, tragic. Tragic.
00:29:00
Well, it seems like um like from the
00:29:01
picture you've painted of a young man,
00:29:03
it seems like you've always you've
00:29:04
always been like this um zen chill dude
00:29:06
that that's the man that I've come to
00:29:08
know now, but was there a moment when
00:29:11
you decided what sort of man you wanted
00:29:13
to be or
00:29:14
>> Yeah. Do you know what?
00:29:15
>> When I left home, I decided I did not
00:29:17
want to be my dad.
00:29:18
>> I didn't want to be from a really young
00:29:19
age.
00:29:20
>> From a really young age, I just knew.
00:29:22
And I think that's what music like
00:29:23
hip-hop, art, you know, creatives that I
00:29:27
witnessed on television, movies and and
00:29:29
books really gave me a different window.
00:29:31
Like I knew what was cool and what I
00:29:34
wanted to be like. I knew what I didn't
00:29:36
want to be like. I was living with
00:29:37
someone whom I didn't want to be like.
00:29:41
>> So you're 15, you leave home. How do you
00:29:43
start healing yourself?
00:29:45
>> Well, I moved into a boy's home. And
00:29:47
this home was full of boys who had
00:29:48
similar stories. Um, and I was just on
00:29:51
that journey of of really
00:29:54
trying to find who I was and what I I
00:29:56
wanted in life. Um, and then I met my
00:29:58
wife in my adult years. Um, while I was
00:30:01
cutting here, she was we became best
00:30:03
friends, me and Sarah. We were friends
00:30:05
for 4 years. Um, she was living over up
00:30:08
here in Oakland. I was down in Christ
00:30:09
Church and then she moved away to the
00:30:12
Cook Islands. Um, I was a joiner by
00:30:14
trade and then for one all of a sudden
00:30:17
one day I woke up and I wanted to cut
00:30:19
here
00:30:20
>> and I told Sarah over the phone while
00:30:21
she was living in the Cook Islands and
00:30:22
she said, "Oh, my father, my dad um used
00:30:25
to run a hairdressing business called
00:30:27
called Civil."
00:30:28
>> Yeah. And so I said, "Oh, all this time
00:30:30
we've been friends, he never told me
00:30:31
this, you know, I didn't know because he
00:30:33
obviously retired and left the
00:30:34
business."
00:30:35
>> Um, but yeah, he reached out Paul um her
00:30:38
dad reached out and said, "Oh, if you're
00:30:39
serious about barbering, come up to
00:30:40
Oakuckland and you can learn under one
00:30:42
of my barbers." So he owned a few barber
00:30:44
shops up here. And so then I came to
00:30:45
Oakland for a couple of months and just
00:30:47
sat in a barber shop just off of Queen
00:30:49
Street and just sweeped the floor and
00:30:51
learned off this old Turkish barber.
00:30:53
>> And so that was my journey of really um
00:30:56
getting into my career. And then it was
00:30:58
talking to men which really set off the
00:31:00
journey of healing was listening to
00:31:02
stories of men similar stories of mine
00:31:04
men who were living in beautiful
00:31:06
relationships, happy marriages and these
00:31:09
guys became my teachers
00:31:10
>> you know and so yeah I think for me the
00:31:13
the journey of healing has been a
00:31:15
journey you know not I don't think I'm
00:31:17
at that destination yet
00:31:19
>> as zen as I may come across I'm
00:31:21
definitely
00:31:21
>> but also yeah I don't know if you ever
00:31:23
arrive at that destination like there's
00:31:25
always um you can always be a better
00:31:26
person even when you're awesome like you
00:31:29
are. Um, but you you you ran through a
00:31:31
lot of information there. We're going to
00:31:32
drill down on some of that stuff soon,
00:31:34
like the um yeah, the meat cute with
00:31:36
your your wife and um how you managed to
00:31:38
get out of the friend zone after 4
00:31:40
years.
00:31:41
>> There's a lot to talk about. Um but just
00:31:44
a couple more on your on your parents
00:31:45
before we close that chapter. Um uh you
00:31:48
wrote that your mom never left your dad.
00:31:50
Um she escaped. Can you elaborate on
00:31:54
what that means?
00:31:56
They broke up um a few times throughout
00:32:00
my childhood. Um I remember my mom my
00:32:03
dad actually had left my mom for another
00:32:05
lady and for about a year and so it was
00:32:08
just us. I thought man I was on top of
00:32:10
the world. Home was like violence free.
00:32:13
>> Um mom I just seen this man a new glow
00:32:15
on my mom you know she was there was no
00:32:17
one else in our life but she was just
00:32:19
herself like she was this strong woman.
00:32:22
she was working multiple jobs to, you
00:32:24
know, keep the lights on. Um, and home
00:32:27
was just happy. And then I remember not
00:32:29
knowing that mom was probably also
00:32:31
feeling lonely. And so I don't know how
00:32:33
my dad came back into the picture, but
00:32:35
the first day my dad came back after
00:32:37
over a year, he told me to open up the
00:32:39
garage door. And I said, "Now you open
00:32:41
it up." That response ended up me
00:32:44
getting a hiding. Um, on the first day
00:32:46
that they got back into our lives. So I
00:32:49
think mom and I remember looking at her.
00:32:50
She was sitting at the kitchen table um
00:32:53
inside the house cuz that window was
00:32:55
staring right at the garage and um she
00:32:57
just yelled at my old man, you know,
00:32:59
stop, leave him alone.
00:33:01
But um that was Yeah, I think just that
00:33:04
chaos, that cycle of violence was just a
00:33:07
continuous thing right throughout my
00:33:09
upbringing until I left home at 15.
00:33:12
Years after then I think mom just had
00:33:13
enough. You know, it was my two little
00:33:15
brothers who were still at home. Um, and
00:33:18
then yeah, I think mom just had enough
00:33:19
and ended up breaking up with him. And
00:33:21
so he ended up moving out. They were
00:33:23
separated for a couple of years until
00:33:26
her last her last years of fighting
00:33:28
cancer.
00:33:30
>> They were just friends, but they were
00:33:32
living together, weren't together, but
00:33:34
just friends.
00:33:36
>> Um, you described cutting your your
00:33:38
dad's hair for the last time while he
00:33:39
was in hospice. Um, what was your
00:33:42
relationship like by that time?
00:33:43
>> No, my dad my dad's still around.
00:33:45
>> Oh, he is. No, no. It was um I cut his
00:33:47
hair when we opened up our barber shop.
00:33:49
>> Oh, okay.
00:33:49
>> Yeah. Instead of cutting a ribbon, I
00:33:52
decided to cut my dad's hair.
00:33:53
>> But I wanted to publicly forgive him
00:33:56
>> and I wanted to tell him I'd written a
00:33:58
letter and I I wanted to read it out to
00:34:00
him in front of my community, all my
00:34:02
peers, all my clients because I wanted
00:34:04
to model when we talk about healing.
00:34:07
When you tell men to do the work, most
00:34:08
men usually respond, "What does doing
00:34:10
the work look like?" Like what does that
00:34:12
look like, mate? How is that tangible?
00:34:14
I found in my work when you're telling
00:34:16
someone to do the work or teaching
00:34:18
people how to do the work, you have to
00:34:20
model that yourself. So, what better way
00:34:22
to model this than invite my father in
00:34:24
for the opening of our barber shop and
00:34:26
forgive him publicly. So, I stood there
00:34:28
reading this letter that I written to my
00:34:30
father, a heartfelt letter of forgiving
00:34:32
him. In tears, I looked around the room
00:34:34
and you know, we had gangsters, opposite
00:34:37
gang members in the room, police
00:34:39
clients, lawyers, doctors, just standing
00:34:41
there in tears.
00:34:43
And unfortunately my dad rocked up
00:34:45
drunk. So he was sitting there while I'm
00:34:47
giving this public apology like just
00:34:49
looking at everyone's like why is
00:34:50
everyone crying? Not even all there you
00:34:51
know.
00:34:52
>> But that's where I really learned that
00:34:54
forgiveness wasn't about him. It was
00:34:56
about me. It was for me to let go.
00:34:59
Because if I held on to this anger and
00:35:00
this resentment which would turn into
00:35:02
bitterness,
00:35:04
>> I would just trickle that down onto my
00:35:05
children.
00:35:06
>> So again, if I wanted to be a father, to
00:35:08
be the father that I never had,
00:35:10
>> I knew what not to be like. M
00:35:12
>> and that was my old man.
00:35:15
>> He he doesn't deserve your love.
00:35:17
>> Eh,
00:35:18
>> some would say,
00:35:19
>> but um yeah, I don't know. I mean,
00:35:23
I'm still I'm still navigating that, you
00:35:26
know. Is it for myself? I mean, some
00:35:28
some of my boys like, are you doing it
00:35:29
for your own ego? It's like, no, I'm
00:35:30
doing it for myself because I don't want
00:35:32
to be this man who just harbors so much
00:35:34
anger and resentment.
00:35:35
>> Unfortunately, this is the cards that I
00:35:37
was dealt with. This is my old man. Um,
00:35:39
I still love him and I choose to forgive
00:35:41
him daily. But I also have compassion
00:35:43
for him cuz in this journey I've learned
00:35:46
that he too was abused. He too was
00:35:48
horrifically tortured as a child, you
00:35:50
know, and so being uneducated, coming
00:35:53
into a country where you couldn't speak
00:35:54
English properly, you know, and you just
00:35:55
worked the 9 to5 factory work.
00:35:58
I mean, his his solution was the booze,
00:36:02
the alcohol, you know. So,
00:36:04
unfortunately, he just didn't have
00:36:05
adequate help.
00:36:07
>> Yeah. Yeah, if you come at it from a
00:36:08
place of um like extreme compassion, you
00:36:11
could Yeah. I mean uh he came to New
00:36:13
Zealand at a time where this was
00:36:14
supposed to be the dream, right? Come
00:36:15
here for like better wages, better
00:36:17
conditions, better life, and you end up
00:36:19
with you usually factory jobs with
00:36:21
barely enough, you know, money to put
00:36:22
food on the table.
00:36:24
>> Um is he proud of you?
00:36:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's proud when he
00:36:28
sees us on the news. We're talking about
00:36:30
domestic violence, obviously sharing our
00:36:32
stories. Um, my little brother, one of
00:36:34
my younger brothers, often sits with him
00:36:36
and shows him, you know, oh, this is
00:36:37
what, you know, Matt's up to at the
00:36:39
moment,
00:36:39
>> and he always says he's proud.
00:36:41
>> Is he embarrassed?
00:36:43
>> I think he's embarrassed. Actually, I
00:36:45
know he's embarrassed, but he doesn't
00:36:46
fully grasp
00:36:50
the giant how this movement has to what
00:36:52
this movement's turned into, you know.
00:36:54
Um, he doesn't fully grasp it because
00:36:56
he's not he's not a social bunny. He
00:36:57
just goes to work and then comes home
00:36:58
and has his few cans of beer, you know.
00:37:02
>> Oh, he's still a drinker.
00:37:03
>> He's still a drinker.
00:37:05
>> Um, yeah. Are there any moments like now
00:37:08
where you will see glimpses of your
00:37:10
father and you? And if so, like how does
00:37:12
that make you feel?
00:37:15
>> No.
00:37:15
>> No, not at all.
00:37:16
>> Not at all, bro.
00:37:17
>> Yeah.
00:37:17
>> Not at all. I mean, I have there were
00:37:19
moments when my son was growing up. My
00:37:22
son's now 10 years old. There was
00:37:24
moments when he was three, four, five
00:37:27
where I would just tear up. Um I was
00:37:29
like, man, how I wish my dad treated me
00:37:31
the way you, you know, how I treat you,
00:37:33
how I wish my father loved on us boys,
00:37:35
how I love you, you know, cuz I love you
00:37:37
so much. I don't I just couldn't fathom
00:37:40
doing to you what my dad did to us, you
00:37:42
know, like beating up mom, cursing at
00:37:44
mom. I would never speak to your mom in
00:37:46
front of you guys like that, you know?
00:37:47
Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not
00:37:48
perfect. I've definitely been
00:37:50
disregulated. No one can disregulate me
00:37:52
more than my wife. You know, my wife
00:37:54
knows how to, you know, get in there.
00:37:56
>> But I've never ever, you know, cursed at
00:37:58
her, cussed at her or called her names
00:38:00
in front of our children, you know,
00:38:03
>> let I mean, that's just something that
00:38:04
we've had agreements on in our
00:38:06
relationship, never to call each other
00:38:07
names,
00:38:09
>> so and that's hard when that's that's
00:38:10
all I ever heard,
00:38:12
>> you know.
00:38:13
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's all you know cuz um
00:38:15
yeah the household I I I grew up in um
00:38:17
Catholic household. There was never any
00:38:18
domestic violence but there's always a
00:38:20
lot of shouting. There was um alcohol
00:38:21
use and then when I left home and got
00:38:23
into my first couple of relationships,
00:38:24
it was the same sort of thing like um
00:38:26
and a lot of that may maybe it's teenage
00:38:28
love or whatever. You know, you don't
00:38:29
fully know how to have an adult
00:38:31
relationship. Um but as I got into my
00:38:33
20ies, I thought it's just not normal
00:38:35
like having a a relationship where
00:38:36
you're having shouting matches all the
00:38:38
time.
00:38:39
>> Um yeah, I'm exactly the same now. Can't
00:38:42
tell you the last time I had like an
00:38:44
argument like that. Like a shouting
00:38:45
argument.
00:38:46
>> No.
00:38:46
>> So, um, meeting Sarah,
00:38:50
what were your toxic traits when you met
00:38:51
her? How old were you when you met her?
00:38:55
>> Great question. Um,
00:38:58
26, I think.
00:38:59
>> Yeah, I I I asked that since like 13
00:39:01
years ago. I asked that because I think
00:39:02
I heard this in a in another podcast you
00:39:04
did or maybe the TED talk. Um,
00:39:06
>> no, I think 23.
00:39:07
>> Yeah.
00:39:08
>> Yeah. Sorry.
00:39:09
>> 16 years. because she um she told you
00:39:11
you had to do some work before
00:39:14
before you'd go out go out with you.
00:39:15
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. We
00:39:17
were best friends for so long. I mean,
00:39:18
she was the my first receptionist in my
00:39:21
little barber shed. So, I had a barber
00:39:22
shed where you could only fit two of us
00:39:24
in the in the barber shed full haircut.
00:39:27
Um and then my friend at the time,
00:39:30
Sarah, was sitting in her red car. I
00:39:32
forgot what brand it was. Um type of car
00:39:35
sitting in her red car doing all the
00:39:37
appointments, you And so she was my
00:39:38
first she was the OG receptionist and
00:39:40
all the clients said, "Oh, you guys
00:39:41
hooking up? You know, you guys should be
00:39:43
together." I'm like, "Nah, we're just
00:39:44
friends." You know, cuz she had
00:39:46
>> our oldest girl, Ocean Oceana, right?
00:39:48
Oceana was a young young girl. And I
00:39:50
just I never wanted to be that guy that
00:39:52
just played on, you know, her heart.
00:39:54
Oshi's heart. I wanted to be respectful.
00:39:56
So until I was sure, I had my own [ __ ]
00:39:59
going on. I had my own pain and trauma
00:40:00
that I had to deal with, you know, so
00:40:02
I'm not now going to pass that to you
00:40:03
and you have to do the work for me. Um,
00:40:05
so she knew all this stuff. She knew my
00:40:08
lies. She knew the stuff that I, you
00:40:10
know, kept hidden cuz she was, she
00:40:12
became my safe place where I could talk
00:40:13
about this stuff and not feel judged.
00:40:15
And that's the thing I always loved
00:40:17
about my um my wife now was she was
00:40:19
never judgmental. She always held the
00:40:21
space and just listened. And I never
00:40:23
obviously had that, you know, um in the
00:40:26
environment that I grew up, mocking was
00:40:28
normal. you know, you share any of your
00:40:30
heartfelt or vulnerable stuff traits
00:40:32
with your boys, mocking, you know, um
00:40:35
you'd be laughed at, told to harden up,
00:40:38
swallow a concrete pill, like all those
00:40:41
>> toxic things. And so, um yeah, she
00:40:43
became my first safe space where I could
00:40:45
really unload about the stuff. And so,
00:40:48
naturally, it just progressed into a
00:40:50
relationship.
00:40:52
>> And when I asked her to answer your
00:40:54
question, yeah, I said, should we make
00:40:56
this a thing? And she was a bit shocked.
00:40:58
Um, but her knowing my story said,
00:40:59
"Well, I love you, but you need to kick
00:41:02
your ass into the therapy. Get some
00:41:03
help." Cuz
00:41:04
>> you not had any therapy at that stage?
00:41:06
>> No. I mean, I've not clinic therapy.
00:41:10
I've had like counselors, people who are
00:41:13
counselors like sit with me and talk to
00:41:14
me who are my friends, but not go to a
00:41:16
proper, you know, professional with the
00:41:18
whole degree sheang.
00:41:20
>> Um, and so I did. I checked into therapy
00:41:22
and she came with me and she sat there
00:41:24
listening to because I really love this
00:41:26
woman and I wanted to do this work. You
00:41:28
know, I knew that asking her out that
00:41:30
she was going to be the one that I
00:41:31
married. Being friends with someone for
00:41:33
4 years, like I know everything. So,
00:41:36
you're the one I want to spend my life
00:41:37
with. This is not a trial and error.
00:41:39
Like, we're going to make this work. I'm
00:41:40
going to make sure I make this work. And
00:41:42
so, yeah, invited her to come to my
00:41:43
first therapy session. And so she sat
00:41:45
there listening to everything. Listen to
00:41:46
me disclose, you know, my addictions, my
00:41:50
fears, my anxiety, everything to the
00:41:53
therapist.
00:41:53
>> What were your addictions?
00:41:55
>> Pornography,
00:41:56
>> right?
00:41:56
>> Yeah. Pornography. I never I never
00:41:59
um I was never a substance user, never
00:42:02
drank alcohol. I never touched alcohol
00:42:03
till I was I was 26. So yeah,
00:42:06
pornography was my main addiction.
00:42:09
I got a whole chapter on that on our she
00:42:11
is not your rehab.
00:42:13
>> Was um
00:42:15
you was there part of you that was
00:42:17
scared of um asking her to go from being
00:42:20
you know a best friend from four years
00:42:21
to being a romantic partner in that um
00:42:24
you know if she said no it could have
00:42:25
like impacted the friendship potentially
00:42:27
>> 100%. It would have like I just thought
00:42:29
>> that's why I knew I wanted to make it
00:42:31
work and I invited her to my first
00:42:32
therapy session because
00:42:34
>> I didn't want to lose my friend you know
00:42:36
and we're putting this all on the line.
00:42:38
Um, I don't want to break her heart. I
00:42:40
don't want to break her daughter's heart
00:42:41
cuz I I came to love Oceanana now, you
00:42:44
know.
00:42:45
>> So, yeah, I was of course I was nervous.
00:42:48
>> Did what role did she play, if any, in
00:42:51
healing your heart? Obviously, she is
00:42:53
not your therapist.
00:42:54
>> Yeah.
00:42:55
>> Oh, man. What can I not I could talk a
00:42:57
whole podcast about my wife.
00:42:59
>> Yeah. I see you guys when you're in
00:43:00
here, right? Like, um, you're so in love
00:43:02
and you're such a powerful team
00:43:03
together.
00:43:04
>> Thank you. Um, look, I I wouldn't be
00:43:07
where I'm at today, you know, and I
00:43:08
often say, you know, she's not your your
00:43:10
um rehab, which is the slogan of our
00:43:12
book and our movement. Um, but she can
00:43:15
be your safe place. She is your greatest
00:43:17
cheerleader. Um, and that's what she has
00:43:19
been for me. You know, she hasn't done
00:43:20
the work for me, but she's encouraged me
00:43:22
to do the work.
00:43:23
>> Um, and she's a very boundaried human,
00:43:25
you know. Um, I can't do that for you.
00:43:27
If you're not willing to do that
00:43:28
yourself, how are you expecting me to do
00:43:30
that when I've got my own [ __ ] that I
00:43:31
have to deal with, you know? Um,
00:43:35
but yeah, 100% don't believe I'd be the
00:43:38
man I am today if not for her. I mean,
00:43:40
she's made me the father I am today.
00:43:42
She's given me my three beautiful
00:43:43
children.
00:43:45
>> So, my father's barber.
00:43:49
So, from what I can gather, you
00:43:50
originally wanted to be a teacher.
00:43:52
>> Yeah. Why did you want to be a teacher?
00:43:54
And that's the thing like growing up
00:43:56
with these childhood experiences,
00:43:58
adverse childhood experiences, which are
00:43:59
traumatic experiences in your childhood,
00:44:03
when you're met with empathy and
00:44:04
compassion, you can heal those. I was
00:44:07
fortunate to have a music teacher in
00:44:09
school who goes by the who a lady who
00:44:11
goes by the name of Mary Rustin, blonde
00:44:14
hair, blue-eyed lady whom I thought,
00:44:16
what do you know about, you know, our
00:44:18
stories? and all of us mischief kids who
00:44:21
were up to no good. We resonated with
00:44:23
her when she disclosed to us that she
00:44:25
too had gone through a lot of trauma.
00:44:28
She too was addicted to meth drugs and
00:44:31
went through rehab. Um and so when she
00:44:33
told that to us, "Oh my gosh, you have
00:44:34
our ears. You have our hearts." And so
00:44:37
just the way that she kept us kids in
00:44:39
school, it was because of her why I
00:44:41
believe most of us stayed in school and
00:44:43
finished school. If not for her, I don't
00:44:45
think most of us would be would be here
00:44:46
still today. Yeah.
00:44:47
>> Um, so you see that in movies like
00:44:49
Dangerous Minds and you know different,
00:44:51
you know, American movies like that
00:44:52
where it just takes one teacher.
00:44:54
>> She was that teacher for us. Um, and so
00:44:56
because of that,
00:44:57
>> I wanted to be a teacher. Like I wanted
00:44:58
to give to other kids what she had
00:45:00
gifted to us.
00:45:02
>> [ __ ] That's so powerful. So nice. Yeah.
00:45:04
When did you last see her?
00:45:06
>> Would have been
00:45:11
10 years ago.
00:45:12
>> Yeah. So nice that you give her a shout
00:45:13
out cuz you hope
00:45:14
>> I always talk about her.
00:45:15
>> Yeah. And you hope this information gets
00:45:17
back to her. I'm sure it does. Um,
00:45:20
>> yeah. Yeah. What was it? Was it just
00:45:22
compassion that she you
00:45:24
>> compassion and empathy?
00:45:26
>> It's when you feel seen and loved and
00:45:29
acknowledged,
00:45:31
>> that's really where healing begins, you
00:45:33
know. And so when I sit with men who are
00:45:35
incarcerated, men who have committed
00:45:36
some of the most heinous crimes in our
00:45:38
country and I sit and listen to these
00:45:40
stories, society paints them as
00:45:42
monsters, perpetrators, you know, all
00:45:44
the nasty things that they have done.
00:45:45
And hey, you're allowed to. You're
00:45:47
you're a victim. You've been hurt by
00:45:48
this man who's done some evil things.
00:45:51
100%. Be angry.
00:45:55
>> Now, as a community, we can come in and
00:45:56
sit with these men to help them heal and
00:45:58
talk with them so they don't carry on
00:46:00
the cycle. And so when I listen to the
00:46:02
gentleman's stories,
00:46:04
I soon learn that they too were once
00:46:06
upon a time a victim themselves.
00:46:08
>> So until we heal that victim within that
00:46:10
man who was sitting behind the wire,
00:46:12
>> we're never going to see cycles broken.
00:46:14
>> Yeah.
00:46:14
>> So if we want a generation of cycle
00:46:16
breakers, we have to work with those
00:46:17
with perpetrator violence because
00:46:18
they'll just go back when they've done
00:46:19
their leg, get released, they go back
00:46:21
into homes where little boys are waiting
00:46:24
for dad Superman to come and be healed
00:46:26
and be more present. Are they going to
00:46:28
get a healer version, a more healed
00:46:30
version or a more angry version
00:46:32
>> of their dad?
00:46:34
>> So, why didn't you follow through on
00:46:36
being a teacher? You ended up leaving
00:46:38
school and um training to be a joiner.
00:46:40
>> Yeah. Um I took a year break and I went
00:46:43
and worked with my boys who were all
00:46:45
joiners, you know, just hang out with
00:46:46
them. And I've always liked creating
00:46:48
things. I love using my hands to create
00:46:49
things. Um but that year turned into a
00:46:51
couple of years where I got my trade. Um
00:46:55
and so yeah became a joiner and then I
00:46:57
just moved into barbering.
00:46:58
>> I suppose what I do now I teach I go
00:47:01
around the world teaching emotional
00:47:02
literacy
00:47:04
>> um to police social workers all around
00:47:06
the world and so in some way I'm
00:47:08
teaching but not an official teacher.
00:47:11
>> Oh no I mean the teaching stuff you're
00:47:12
doing now and yeah we will get to all
00:47:15
this um but it's far more impact than
00:47:18
than teaching kids you know the alphabet
00:47:19
or the times tables. I mean that's
00:47:22
important but yeah.
00:47:23
>> Yeah 100% it is. So um the backyard
00:47:25
barber shop. So it was a a tin shed in
00:47:27
Adanui um called my father's barber. Why
00:47:30
the name?
00:47:31
>> Well it started from my faith. Um I grew
00:47:33
up Christian
00:47:34
>> and so it was a play on words because
00:47:36
you know I think when I think of the
00:47:38
tradition of going to a barber a barber
00:47:41
shop you know most kids their first
00:47:43
experience of a barber shop is going
00:47:44
with the old man. So it was that whole
00:47:46
you know going to my father's barber. Um
00:47:49
then I also for growing up in my faith
00:47:51
um where I I always wanted I looked at
00:47:54
God as a father figure you know when my
00:47:57
own father wasn't the best father
00:47:59
figure. So I imagine that this god that
00:48:01
lived up in the sky was this beautiful
00:48:03
father. And so I thought in order you
00:48:05
know how would a father treat the most
00:48:07
vulnerable in our society? I believe
00:48:10
that they would treat them with
00:48:11
kindness, compassion and empathy. M
00:48:13
>> and so I wanted to represent that idea
00:48:16
of what a loving, compassionate father
00:48:18
was. So I would be that father's barber.
00:48:23
>> And um was it wildly successful like
00:48:25
straight away? So you start up this tin
00:48:26
shed. Um I believe before too long
00:48:28
you're cutting here. You had a really
00:48:29
good work ethic, right? Like cutting
00:48:30
hair from 6:00 a.m. to midnight often.
00:48:32
Not doing it for money, doing it for
00:48:34
like pies from the bakery.
00:48:36
>> No, honestly, it just it popped off.
00:48:38
Like I I mean I started out with $5
00:48:40
haircuts, but you know when you're
00:48:42
listening to the stories in your
00:48:43
neighborhood like bro I can't take your
00:48:45
money you know and moms will come in
00:48:47
with their kids you know sometimes five
00:48:48
kids you know I'm not taking your money
00:48:51
like here's a free haircut you know
00:48:53
>> you're too soft to be in business. I
00:48:54
know honestly and all my business mates
00:48:56
say is like mate you're never going to
00:48:57
you're never going to make money and
00:48:58
even now doing this work like traveling
00:49:00
the world like you know organizations
00:49:02
pay for us to travel you know so I I
00:49:04
feel like I'm this little boy who's you
00:49:05
know walking into a candy store like I
00:49:07
could only dream of visiting these
00:49:08
countries I only seen these countries on
00:49:10
movies you know but now I get to
00:49:12
experience that so for me I am living my
00:49:13
dream I'm not making you know bank but
00:49:16
I'm living my dream where I get to visit
00:49:17
countries and and you know talk about
00:49:19
stories of healing and share my story my
00:49:20
family story
00:49:22
>> but um it popped off in a little garden
00:49:24
tin shed. And the reason why I was doing
00:49:26
6:00 a.m. to midnight because the more
00:49:28
haircuts I could do, the more I could
00:49:29
give away free haircuts, you know, so
00:49:31
these haircuts would cover other
00:49:32
haircuts. Um, and some of the guys
00:49:33
genuinely knew that. I mean, in Adanoi
00:49:36
on the east side of Christ Church, you
00:49:38
know, we would call that the hood, you
00:49:39
know, that that's the hood in Christ
00:49:40
Church, but there were so many beautiful
00:49:42
men who were coming into my little
00:49:44
>> dark corner of the street. Um, we were
00:49:47
packed right at the um corner in this
00:49:48
dead end street. you know, they're
00:49:50
walking down this long driveway and the
00:49:52
first time that a lot of these men will
00:49:53
come like, man, this is scary. Like, is
00:49:55
it all right to keep our cars, you know,
00:49:56
on the side of the road? Of course it
00:49:57
is. Like, you know, we're we're a good
00:49:59
we're a good neighborhood. It got a lot
00:50:00
of slack, but we're a good neighborhood.
00:50:02
And I think, you know, kings and queens
00:50:04
are born in that place in
00:50:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. It does sound weird like you
00:50:09
don't have the um you the red, white,
00:50:11
and blue barberh shop thing out the
00:50:13
>> different red, white, and blue lights.
00:50:16
>> Um Yeah. And so so and you went viral
00:50:19
for doing um some Tupac art in someone's
00:50:21
hair which is um that was like one of
00:50:23
your specialties e like doing portraits
00:50:24
in the back of
00:50:25
>> what's it called? Hair art.
00:50:27
>> Art so yeah that was my specialty. So I
00:50:29
just used utilize hair art to really
00:50:32
promote my barbering. And so when moms
00:50:34
will come in and like you know my kid my
00:50:36
son wants his football team or his rugby
00:50:38
team on the side of his head here can
00:50:39
you do that? Or you know it's book club
00:50:40
week can you do his favorite blah blah
00:50:42
blah. Um, yeah. And I'll straight away
00:50:45
use the power of social media, put up
00:50:47
the photo, and it'll just get hundreds
00:50:48
and hundreds and hundreds of likes, and
00:50:50
then moms will come in like, "Oh, do you
00:50:52
do like normal haircuts, too?" Of course
00:50:54
I do. Like, you know, if I can do a
00:50:56
portrait, I'm pretty sure I can do a
00:50:57
feed. Um, and so that's when really men
00:50:59
started coming. It just opened up. It
00:51:01
was I use it as an advertising tool to
00:51:03
to get men in the chair.
00:51:05
>> But that must have been I mean, this is
00:51:07
this is trivial on the big part of, you
00:51:09
know, the Matt Brown story, but the um
00:51:10
the Tupac thing. So, you know, Tupac
00:51:13
Yeah. navigated through you through your
00:51:15
teenage years. You know, you're you
00:51:17
know, you're a huge fan of his music and
00:51:19
then suddenly you get shared on the
00:51:20
official
00:51:21
>> Tupac Facebook page and it blows up
00:51:23
millions of views overnight.
00:51:25
>> Yes.
00:51:25
>> I thought I was the man.
00:51:28
>> Yeah. And it went viral and I just
00:51:29
thought well and I mean I'll never
00:51:31
forget um this barber obviously social
00:51:34
media this barber commented I miss my
00:51:36
friend and I jumped on and I was like oh
00:51:37
who's this guy saying he misses his
00:51:39
friend and it was Tupac's barber. the
00:51:41
man who used to cut who was personal
00:51:43
barber to Tupac and Biggie, you know.
00:51:44
And so I got ended up connecting to this
00:51:46
man who goes by the name of Darren Lions
00:51:49
the master barber and I said, "Bro,
00:51:50
would you ever come consider coming to
00:51:52
New Zealand?" And he said, "Yeah, I'd
00:51:54
love to." And so he came here to Altered
00:51:56
and we did a full-on tour around the
00:51:58
country, a soldout tour. And who in if
00:52:01
you told me that one day I would travel
00:52:03
the country touring with two parks
00:52:05
barber personal barber I would never
00:52:06
believe you
00:52:07
>> you know because I just dreams were a
00:52:11
distant you know thing
00:52:13
>> in my mind you know and so to travel
00:52:15
with parks barber was a massive honor
00:52:18
and I got to hear stories that I haven't
00:52:20
yet seen on in any documentary
00:52:23
any movie yet. You know he hasn't spoken
00:52:26
up about what he knows. Wow. You you
00:52:30
made a comment before saying like you're
00:52:32
not making bank, but I I feel like
00:52:34
that's that's never been your sort of
00:52:36
driving motivate. If you wanted to make
00:52:38
bank, like you you could have turned my
00:52:39
father's barber, you could have teamed
00:52:41
up with someone that knows a lot about
00:52:42
business and turned it into like a civil
00:52:44
or something, couldn't you?
00:52:44
>> Yeah. Been offered. I mean, look, my my
00:52:46
father-in-law was the man of that, you
00:52:49
know, he created a massive chain of hair
00:52:51
hair salons and hairmies and we were
00:52:53
going down that path, but I just thought
00:52:54
to myself,
00:52:55
>> this is not my passion. Like I love
00:52:57
cutting hair and I love conversing with
00:52:59
the men who sit in my chair, but being
00:53:01
this business guy who's always thinking
00:53:02
about money is just not me. Like why
00:53:04
would I?
00:53:05
>> I've got my my my hours are short in my
00:53:07
day to to really create impact.
00:53:10
>> Um but yeah, I mean I'm happy in my
00:53:11
three-bedroom, you know, townhouse back
00:53:13
in Christ Church with my faro. That's
00:53:16
all we need, you know, and I look at the
00:53:18
state of the world currently. We don't
00:53:19
need anymore.
00:53:21
>> I'm happy with what we have.
00:53:22
>> I feel like you you'd only want money
00:53:23
for what you can do with it.
00:53:25
>> Yeah. And that's the thing, we're making
00:53:27
>> Yeah, we're making money, but it just
00:53:28
goes back into our work. You know, we're
00:53:30
buying more books to give away for free.
00:53:31
And I often say to people, you know, if
00:53:33
trauma is free, why can't healing be
00:53:35
free, you know, like we have to go
00:53:37
through so many hoops, dodge so, you
00:53:38
know, jump over so many cliffs just to
00:53:40
get the right help that we all need. And
00:53:42
>> I mean, we're just doing our small part
00:53:44
around family violence prevention and
00:53:45
suicide prevention. you know, men's
00:53:47
mental health is is crucial to me,
00:53:49
important to me because I grew up in a
00:53:50
household where men's mental health just
00:53:53
wasn't healthy, you know.
00:53:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like a I've got it
00:53:59
like a [ __ ] on you, but yeah,
00:54:00
vulnerable conversations like weren't
00:54:02
even a thing as well. Like I went to an
00:54:03
old boy school and if you showed any
00:54:04
sort of vulnerability or weakness, it
00:54:06
would just be weaponized against you
00:54:07
>> 100%.
00:54:08
>> So you just wouldn't you just don't say
00:54:10
a word. So for you, so for you in the um
00:54:12
in um the the barberh shop chair, how
00:54:15
did the vulnerable conversation start?
00:54:17
Was it like accidental or intentional?
00:54:19
>> Accidental. I think it just grew
00:54:20
organically, you know, um when men would
00:54:23
just ask me questions, you know, what's
00:54:24
your story, you know, how did you grow
00:54:25
up, you know, and I would just share. I
00:54:27
mean, I've been talking about my story
00:54:29
since I was 15. So naturally, when if
00:54:32
anyone wanted to listen, of course, I'm
00:54:33
going to share and be honest and open.
00:54:35
Um, and I've always felt when I've been
00:54:38
courageous in sharing my story, I've
00:54:40
always been met with the same energy.
00:54:42
You know, men have often open up and
00:54:44
told me things that they've never even
00:54:45
told their wives. Men who have been
00:54:47
married for 20 years would often share
00:54:48
with me, I've never even told my wife
00:54:50
this, you know, and so I think
00:54:52
vulnerability
00:54:53
gives permission for other people to be
00:54:55
vulnerable. Um, and I see it as a
00:54:57
strength instead of a weakness, you
00:54:58
know. And I always tell guys, especially
00:55:00
guys who are in gangs, like, you know,
00:55:01
the most gangster thing you can do, bro,
00:55:04
is be vulnerable. The most gangster
00:55:06
thing you can do is break cycles. Be
00:55:08
there for your partners. Don't raise a
00:55:10
hand to your partners. Don't raise a
00:55:11
voice to your children. You know, be
00:55:12
there and be the dad that you never had
00:55:14
or witnessed. That's the most gangster
00:55:16
thing you can do. And when you speak in
00:55:17
that language or or um put language to
00:55:20
the feelings that a lot of our men
00:55:22
carry, you see the light bulb turn on.
00:55:24
You know, ah, that's how that makes
00:55:26
sense to me. you vulnerable
00:55:28
conversations are [ __ ] difficult, but
00:55:31
to be to be the person that front foots
00:55:32
it like you are in in this dynamic um
00:55:35
that's that's another level of um
00:55:37
courage I think.
00:55:38
>> Thank you, bro.
00:55:39
>> You know what I mean? Cuz it sort of it
00:55:41
sort of create it lets the customer know
00:55:43
that it's a safe space.
00:55:45
>> Yep. Then you have but you have to model
00:55:46
it, you know. I'm not going to expect
00:55:48
you to I mean again I'm not a counselor
00:55:50
and you're not paying me counselor money
00:55:51
for me to, you know, navigate this thing
00:55:53
for you. You're paying me haircut money.
00:55:55
Look, I'll I'll model it and and be
00:55:57
open, but never a judgmental. Like
00:56:00
>> I always question when people say this
00:56:01
is a safe place. No judgment. It's like,
00:56:04
well, actually, we're all judging, you
00:56:05
know, we're judging whether this is safe
00:56:06
enough for me to open up, you know? So,
00:56:08
I always tell guys, look, this is I'm
00:56:10
judgmental as, but just know that I'm
00:56:12
not going to condemn you for whatever
00:56:13
you share with me. There's going to be
00:56:15
no condemnation.
00:56:17
>> Was there a moment like an like an aha
00:56:19
sort of moment when you realized you
00:56:20
were on to something significant?
00:56:23
Um, not really, bro. It's just
00:56:28
>> I think in our sector of violence, a lot
00:56:30
of people are angry.
00:56:32
>> Um,
00:56:34
but I've seen our work. It works. When
00:56:37
you meet people who have perpetrated
00:56:39
violence and you meet and understand
00:56:42
them and look at them with compassion
00:56:43
and speak to their inner child, speak to
00:56:47
the sacredness that sits within them,
00:56:50
>> you see a much better result. You see a
00:56:52
man who is willing to heal and change
00:56:54
when you come to them with compassion.
00:56:56
But when you come at them pointing the
00:56:57
finger blah blah blah here the
00:56:59
consequences blah blah blah you know
00:57:01
that's it for you. I thought well you
00:57:03
just validate everything that I've been
00:57:05
told as a child.
00:57:05
>> Yeah.
00:57:06
>> That I'm going to be another statistic
00:57:08
that I'm going to be another data
00:57:09
>> for the system. So I choose not to be
00:57:12
that.
00:57:12
>> Yeah. What was some of the most powerful
00:57:15
moments in the chair in terms of like
00:57:17
stories you heard? Man, I've seen boys
00:57:20
cry, you know, telling me, disclosing to
00:57:23
me they because they didn't um make the
00:57:26
first 15 or they didn't make the
00:57:28
basketball a team. Um they're too scared
00:57:31
to tell their dad because their dad um
00:57:34
will just say to them that they're good
00:57:35
for nothing. Why are you even my son?
00:57:37
You know, boys just full on cry in my
00:57:39
chair. Um but these are moms bringing
00:57:41
their boys in because they believe that
00:57:43
our shop were safe was safe enough for
00:57:46
their boys to open up. Um, I've seen
00:57:48
grown as men come into our barber shop
00:57:50
in tears. Um, my barbers gather around
00:57:52
them and cry with them. You know, when
00:57:54
you hear stories of men who have lost
00:57:56
their children to violence, um, not at
00:57:59
their hands, but other people's hands.
00:58:01
We've seen some of the most horrific
00:58:02
stories. You know, our barber shop is
00:58:04
situated 2 minutes from the mosque
00:58:06
shooting that happened in Christ Church.
00:58:07
We've had some of the Muslim Faro come
00:58:09
into our barber shop, men for haircuts,
00:58:11
and just cry. I've lost my granddad.
00:58:13
I've lost my mom. I've lost my dad. You
00:58:15
know, my daughter's in a wheelchair.
00:58:16
like
00:58:18
>> there's nothing really that will shock
00:58:19
me now. You know, I've heard some crazy,
00:58:23
heartbreaking, funny stories.
00:58:28
>> Yeah. This the story, and I've heard you
00:58:29
tell this a couple of times before, but
00:58:31
it'd be wonderful if you'd um tell it
00:58:33
again if you want to. Um just broke my
00:58:35
heart. The story about Liam.
00:58:37
>> Yeah. Liam, that was in my shed. And I
00:58:40
remember we just we got along and I
00:58:43
think our stories of our fathers loving
00:58:45
alcohol connected us. Um and then I
00:58:49
remember I showed every time after a
00:58:51
barber shop, if you go to a barber and
00:58:53
they show you, they should show you the
00:58:54
final product with a smaller mirror,
00:58:56
right? Reflecting onto the bigger
00:58:57
mirror. And I remember I was showing
00:58:58
Liam like, "What do you think of your
00:59:00
haircut, bro?" And um you know he was
00:59:03
kind of not looking up but as as soon as
00:59:05
his eyes engaged with his haircut he
00:59:08
just started crying weeping and I said
00:59:11
oh awkward you know as a as a guy this
00:59:13
is my early days of barbering and I
00:59:15
thought oh what do I do? What I do? Um
00:59:18
and I asked him are you all right bro?
00:59:20
And he said yeah I just I planned for
00:59:23
this haircut to be my last haircut. And
00:59:25
I said what do you mean? He said oh this
00:59:28
was the haircut for my funeral. So, what
00:59:30
do you mean for your funeral? Well, I
00:59:33
wanted to look in my c I wanted to look
00:59:34
good in my casket because I wanted to
00:59:37
take my own life. I want to take my own
00:59:38
life. And I remember I just put my
00:59:40
mirror down and just grabbed him, hugged
00:59:43
him, and just cried with him. And so we
00:59:45
stood there crying for a couple of
00:59:46
minutes and um you know after he wiped
00:59:50
his eyes, got himself together, he you
00:59:53
know stood at my barber shed
00:59:55
and he turned around and said
00:59:58
thank you so much for seeing me tonight.
01:00:01
And I knew he wasn't talking about
01:00:03
fitting fitting him in for a haircut,
01:00:05
you know, it was thank you for seeing me
01:00:07
like really seeing him beyond the
01:00:08
facade, beyond the mask and just
01:00:10
connecting with him. And so that was
01:00:12
really my that was probably one of the
01:00:15
first moments in my my career where I
01:00:17
thought man I am on to something here
01:00:19
about just holding space for men to talk
01:00:21
and whether that's sharing my story or
01:00:23
just listening.
01:00:25
>> Um and often you know I'm not a talker
01:00:27
big talker myself you know so often if a
01:00:29
guy comes and sits in my chair I'll try
01:00:32
and navigate as gently as I can the
01:00:34
conversation. If he doesn't want to talk
01:00:35
if he doesn't want you know if I can
01:00:36
pick up that he just wants to rest then
01:00:38
I'll let him relax and we'll get to
01:00:39
work. I'm good with that. I'm happy to
01:00:41
not talk, you know, but if you know, if
01:00:43
I ask a question and he wants to talk
01:00:45
and just disclose him, whatever, like
01:00:46
then I'll happily help him navigate.
01:00:50
>> A as you expanded, um, did you find it
01:00:52
hard to like hire barbers? Cuz obviously
01:00:54
you need someone that has the ability to
01:00:55
cut hair, but also the ability to, you
01:00:58
know, hold space.
01:00:59
>> 100%. And so I mean, I had a thing in my
01:01:01
barber shop every Wednesday in our
01:01:03
barber shop. It was compulsory for you
01:01:04
to come to our team meeting. Even if you
01:01:06
weren't scheduled to work that day, you
01:01:08
had to come in 10:00 in the morning,
01:01:10
every Wednesday, we would have meet team
01:01:12
meetings and we would talk about hard
01:01:14
things. And it's not just, oh, how's
01:01:16
your week? How's your week been going,
01:01:17
boys? The boys weren't allowed to say
01:01:18
good. Like, you had to elaborate and
01:01:20
really dig deep in cuz I thought to
01:01:22
myself, who are we doing this work with
01:01:24
the men in our chair, in our community,
01:01:26
in our barber shop, if we can't do this
01:01:28
work with ourselves, with each other?
01:01:30
And so it was crucial and important for
01:01:31
me to really lead by example of what
01:01:34
having vulnerable having a vulnerable
01:01:36
courageous workplace looks like. And it
01:01:38
looked like us doing it ourselves.
01:01:40
>> Do you get lots of customers coming in,
01:01:41
there's a massive line and they're like,
01:01:42
"Oh no, I want to see Matt. I want to
01:01:44
see Matt."
01:01:44
>> No, cuz we had a booking system. Okay.
01:01:46
>> So we didn't have the um just walk-ins
01:01:48
anymore, you know, and so most of us
01:01:49
would be booked out months in advance,
01:01:51
you know, and so we always felt bad if
01:01:53
you were sick. He's like, "Oh man, this
01:01:54
guy's been waiting for a haircut and now
01:01:56
I'm crook," you know. But it was cool
01:01:58
like you say it's funny you say that I'm
01:02:00
no longer in the barbering game but just
01:02:02
like last week my wife attended a a hoie
01:02:04
down in Deneden and she says she came
01:02:06
across this young moldy man who came and
01:02:09
thanked my wife he goes I'm so gutted
01:02:11
that your barber shop is closed down
01:02:12
because it was such a special place you
01:02:14
know he comes from a faro he's the
01:02:15
youngest but he comes from a a farmer's
01:02:18
faro a family of farmers and you see us
01:02:21
boys are just like staunch we don't talk
01:02:23
about emotions or anything and I
01:02:25
remember this is what he was saying to
01:02:26
my wife and I remember my older brother
01:02:28
was going through something. So I
01:02:29
thought, you know, I'm the baby brother.
01:02:30
I don't know what to say or do to my
01:02:32
older brother to help him. So I just
01:02:33
thought, I'll book him in for a haircut.
01:02:34
I'll get him a haircut and just spend
01:02:35
some time with him. And he obviously had
01:02:37
heard of our work. And so he booked him
01:02:39
into our barber shop. And this his
01:02:41
brother got one of the um quietest
01:02:43
barbers, one of our barbers who doesn't
01:02:44
talk at all. And he just said, "I was
01:02:46
just myself there, you know, talking,
01:02:48
being loud in the barber shop." And they
01:02:49
were just so friendly and inviting. And
01:02:51
then I looked over to my brother who was
01:02:52
getting a haircut. And all I could see
01:02:54
was these tears coming down from his
01:02:56
eyes. And I don't know what the barber
01:02:58
said to my brother. But after that um
01:03:00
haircut, you know, I was like, man, now
01:03:02
what do I do from this? Like this is
01:03:04
going to be awkward to talk to him. Uh
01:03:06
should we just go get a feed? Um and
01:03:07
anyway, they went for a feed and he said
01:03:09
that that was the first time in his life
01:03:11
his brother had ever opened up to him
01:03:13
was straight after a hiccup. Wow.
01:03:14
>> And I only just heard this last week.
01:03:16
And so I just thought, man, that barber
01:03:18
shop was a a unique place. But that's
01:03:20
because us boys, us barbers, we had
01:03:23
fostered this environment where we had
01:03:24
to have these conversations within
01:03:25
ourselves.
01:03:27
>> Yeah. And that was that's your
01:03:28
leadership. Like that all came
01:03:30
completely from you.
01:03:31
>> Um Oh, yeah. I'm just giving you flowers
01:03:34
at every a possible opportunity because
01:03:35
you deserve them. Was it was it a you
01:03:37
shut the doors in 2023?
01:03:39
>> Yeah.
01:03:40
>> Was that a like a difficult decision?
01:03:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we decided the idea
01:03:45
came up about 2 years prior to that
01:03:47
because I was getting pulled in so many
01:03:49
directions after my TED talk. Um I was
01:03:52
getting invited from so many different
01:03:54
communities, especially indigenous
01:03:55
communities. We had received letters
01:03:57
from um communities in Canada, in the
01:04:00
States, in the UK saying, "Matt, we've
01:04:03
never seen a brown man stand on stage
01:04:05
and talk about domestic violence the way
01:04:06
you have. Your story is our story. how
01:04:09
do we access your insights and your
01:04:11
tools for our communities? And so being
01:04:14
invited to different countries to talk
01:04:15
about family violence prevention and
01:04:17
suicide prevention, I just thought, man,
01:04:19
and then coming back to the barber shop
01:04:20
and the boys were all like, you know,
01:04:22
off doing their own things and there was
01:04:23
sick days here and clients were
01:04:24
disappointed. I was like, oh man, I
01:04:26
can't do both, you know. Um, but I'm
01:04:28
passionate about this work.
01:04:29
>> And so two years prior to that, the idea
01:04:32
of closing shop um came in. And then I
01:04:37
think a year before closing I decided,
01:04:38
yeah, I need to I can't do both of this.
01:04:40
I can't do both of these things. And I I
01:04:42
gave the options to the boys. Anyone
01:04:44
want to take over? The boys like, no,
01:04:45
we're not working here if you're not
01:04:47
here.
01:04:48
>> So,
01:04:48
>> yeah. So, um my father's barber that
01:04:51
shuts. Um and she's not your rehab was
01:04:54
already a thing by this point. E there's
01:04:55
an overlap. Yeah. That's a great name,
01:04:57
by the way. And a and a I mean, it's a
01:04:59
real eye-catching logo. Like, I'm sure
01:05:01
everyone's seen a t-shirt with it on. Um
01:05:03
where did the name come from? Again,
01:05:06
everything comes from our lounge on our
01:05:08
leather couch where my wife and I just
01:05:10
sit there and talk about ideas till the
01:05:11
sun comes down, till the sun comes up as
01:05:13
well. Um, and she just I got invited to
01:05:16
do the tea talk and we were just playing
01:05:19
around with a few title names um or what
01:05:21
to talk about and obviously just talking
01:05:23
about my story of my wife and then my
01:05:24
wife just belted out, you know, she is
01:05:26
not your rehab because my mom had been
01:05:28
in rehab center for my father my entire
01:05:30
childhood. So that really was the birth
01:05:32
of the name was my wife yelling out to
01:05:34
me, okay, yeah, we we'll title, oh, you
01:05:37
know, the the foundation of my talk, my
01:05:39
te talk will be about women not being
01:05:41
rehabilitation centers and inviting men
01:05:44
to take responsibility for the healing
01:05:46
because what we do not transform,
01:05:48
>> we inevitably transmit onto those who we
01:05:50
love the most.
01:05:51
>> Yeah, the the TED talk's amazing. So
01:05:53
that was 5 years ago. It's a 25minute
01:05:55
talk. Um did did you like auto cue?
01:05:58
There's no notes. No, no. I I've
01:06:01
rehearsed that.
01:06:02
>> No, it's incredible.
01:06:03
>> Thank you. Well, I grew up in church
01:06:04
where we had to like rehearse like Bible
01:06:06
scriptures, you know, and so you'll
01:06:07
stand up on stage and, you know,
01:06:09
rehearse these recite these Bible
01:06:11
scriptures.
01:06:11
>> Yeah. I feel feel that's a bit different
01:06:12
though, like reading the passage from
01:06:13
the Bible to like like sharing some
01:06:15
really like intensely personal and
01:06:18
actually just bloody sad stuff about
01:06:20
your own life.
01:06:21
>> Thank you. Yeah, it was it was about two
01:06:23
months of me just I mean my quiet time's
01:06:26
in the toilet. So, it'll just be me
01:06:27
talking in the toilet, me driving and
01:06:29
just reciting my my speech and my kids
01:06:31
will often say, "Damn, why you keep
01:06:33
talking to yourself? I'm trying to
01:06:34
rehearse my speak my speech for for
01:06:36
Ted."
01:06:37
>> So,
01:06:38
>> yeah, for anyone that hasn't seen it,
01:06:39
it's well worth looking up on on
01:06:40
YouTube. Um 25 minutes speech, no notes,
01:06:44
first five minutes. Um just from the way
01:06:46
you're breathing, you can tell you're
01:06:47
nervous. And why wouldn't you be? It's
01:06:49
like in a massive massive auditorium.
01:06:51
And I was the last speaker of the day.
01:06:53
>> So I'm like freaking closing the whole
01:06:55
bloody
01:06:56
>> the event was Yeah. nerve-wracking.
01:06:59
>> So first five minutes um lots of laughs.
01:07:02
It's very very funny. And then suddenly
01:07:04
um it transitions and you can hear like
01:07:06
a pin drop in that auditorium.
01:07:08
>> Yeah.
01:07:09
>> Um yeah just stunned stunned silence.
01:07:13
>> Thank you. But yeah, I mean the name
01:07:15
came about cuz my wife was like, "We
01:07:16
need to cuz we had our whole community
01:07:18
come up on stage at my barbers and to
01:07:20
talk with me with a haka at the end of
01:07:22
it."
01:07:22
>> And so she was trying to figure out, oh,
01:07:24
what do we, you know, dress everyone up?
01:07:25
And I was like, well, you do that. You
01:07:26
this, you work on that. I'm working on
01:07:28
my speech. And so she decided to put
01:07:30
she's not your rehab on a t-shirt. She
01:07:32
got everyone to wear that. So that's
01:07:33
really where the name, the t-shirt, the
01:07:36
title of the book came from was from
01:07:38
those t-shirts cuz everyone started
01:07:39
messaging us, how do we access those
01:07:41
t-shirts um so much that Amazon ended up
01:07:44
ripping it off and selling it. Um so we
01:07:46
had to um copyright the the name and so
01:07:50
HBO ended up sharing the whole TED talk.
01:07:52
Um it was crazy. It went off on Twitter.
01:07:54
I mean for us it was really
01:07:59
had a lot of stack slack on the name.
01:08:00
you know it is it's triggering for some
01:08:02
especially for me it's like you know but
01:08:04
he is not your rehab too you know women
01:08:06
are re um use men as rehabilitation
01:08:08
centers so I was like okay cool if
01:08:10
that's your story I'll happily support
01:08:12
you but this is my story this is me went
01:08:14
to see my mom be a rehab center you know
01:08:16
for my father
01:08:18
>> also yeah I don't know what I don't know
01:08:19
what the breakdown is but I'm sure like
01:08:22
yeah most victims of domestic violence
01:08:23
by a long way are women rather than men
01:08:26
>> yes oh 100% look and I know like I'm not
01:08:28
ignorant to the fact it does go both
01:08:30
ways I've had many men who have sat in
01:08:31
my chair in tears
01:08:33
>> um because they can't have access to
01:08:34
their children. But unanimously, we're
01:08:37
losing more women and children at the
01:08:38
hands of disregulated men. We're also
01:08:41
losing men at the hands of disregulated
01:08:42
men. We're taking our own lives. So, if
01:08:44
anything, I hope my brothers do know
01:08:47
that the movement is an invitation for
01:08:49
us to do the work, be better.
01:08:52
>> I can't believe some people would be so
01:08:53
brittle. Bro, I had a man who came in. I
01:08:56
I was in Australia for work for Mahi for
01:08:58
about two weeks and I came back to the
01:09:00
barber shop and I was fully booked out
01:09:01
on a Friday and this old man walked in
01:09:04
um old man walked in and the boys go,
01:09:06
"Oh, bro, he's that guy's been coming in
01:09:08
every day the last two weeks while
01:09:09
you're gone um wanting to talk to you."
01:09:11
I said, "Do you guys not book him in?" I
01:09:13
said, "Oh, we we tried to, but he just
01:09:14
said, "I'll just come in when Matt comes
01:09:15
in." And I said, "Well, tell him to come
01:09:16
back on my lunch break. I'll I'll see
01:09:18
him then." Um 3 hours later to my lunch
01:09:20
break, he just he decided to sit there
01:09:22
for the whole 3 hours to my lunch break.
01:09:24
And I went over and sat and I k um how
01:09:28
can I help you? And he goes into his
01:09:30
bag, pulls out my book, which looks like
01:09:32
it's been read. Pulls out my book and
01:09:34
then goes I hate the name of your book.
01:09:36
I'm like, you couldn't just emailed me
01:09:38
this or
01:09:41
I hate the name of your book. Oh, okay.
01:09:43
M like why do you hate the name of the
01:09:45
book? He said because it should be he. I
01:09:48
was like, "Okay." Um, yeah, I used to I
01:09:51
used to get abuse from my wife, my
01:09:52
ex-wife. She used to abuse me. And I
01:09:54
was, "Oh, M, I'm so sorry that that
01:09:56
happened to you. Um, but if you ever
01:09:58
decide to write a book, I'll happily
01:09:59
support you."
01:10:00
>> And then I said, "But you know, you have
01:10:02
read the book." He goes, "Yeah." So, you
01:10:03
know, it's about my mom and my
01:10:04
upbringing of witnessing mom. He goes,
01:10:06
"Yeah, yeah." Okay.
01:10:07
>> But, you know, again, I just held space
01:10:09
for him to listen to him,
01:10:10
>> you know, but yeah, I've had push back
01:10:12
many, many times. You should have just
01:10:14
got a Sharpie and crossed out the S on
01:10:15
his
01:10:17
There you go. Happy now, mate. Um, yeah.
01:10:20
And you got um Dwayne Johnson to wear
01:10:24
the shirt in 2020 after your son wrote
01:10:26
him a note. Um, what sort of impact did
01:10:28
that have on the movement?
01:10:29
>> That took our movement to a global um
01:10:33
recognition. I think we had famous, you
01:10:36
know, WWE stars re-sharing it. You know,
01:10:38
Rkkeshi, you know, the I don't know all
01:10:41
their names. Um, we had hip-hop artists,
01:10:43
we had, you know, NFL stars resharing
01:10:46
like obviously it hit the American
01:10:47
Polynesian market. Um, and so when
01:10:50
Dwayne responded, it was massive. You
01:10:52
know, my my mom is a typical basica sour
01:10:56
woman, very private. She would always
01:10:58
say to me, "Son, why you always want to
01:11:01
tell the sad stories of our family? Tell
01:11:02
the happy stories." And I remember this
01:11:04
one time I said to my mom, "Which one's
01:11:07
mom?"
01:11:09
And that was her response. Yeah, she sat
01:11:12
there in silence. And so
01:11:14
when we did the video, that campaign um
01:11:18
a letter to the rock and we used my son
01:11:21
Angelo when Dwayne ended up responding.
01:11:23
I showed my mom his response on um
01:11:26
Instagram and my mom sat there on her
01:11:30
deathbed. You know, it was 2 weeks
01:11:31
before she lost her battle to cancer and
01:11:32
she just weeped weep. She started
01:11:34
wailing and she just said, "Son, tell
01:11:37
our story well." you know, and so I
01:11:39
always get emotional talking about it
01:11:41
because
01:11:42
>> it just runs right in our culture.
01:11:44
>> You know, this [ __ ] happens in so many
01:11:46
communities, not just Polynesian. It
01:11:47
happens in, you know, well educated
01:11:50
communities, you know, it happens in um
01:11:53
Parkia,
01:11:55
Asians, it happens in every community.
01:11:57
My wife used to work on the family
01:11:58
violence lines. She said often people
01:12:00
who were in privileged power positions
01:12:02
would ring up asking for help, who were
01:12:04
suffering from the domestic violence but
01:12:05
couldn't speak up because of their
01:12:07
positions. too much taboo, too much
01:12:08
stigma. If workplace ever found out, if
01:12:11
the doctors, if the lawyers in their
01:12:13
firm found out, like, you know, they
01:12:14
would probably lose their jobs.
01:12:16
>> You know, domestic violence happens
01:12:17
everywhere. And so for the Wayne to
01:12:20
really um plug our movement was massive.
01:12:23
It grew our movement.
01:12:25
>> I mean, it just opened us up
01:12:27
internationally.
01:12:29
>> Yeah, it was um genuine and authentic as
01:12:32
well. wasn't just him like re-sharing
01:12:34
something or, you know, posing thumbs up
01:12:36
with a t-shirt on. Um, like he put a lot
01:12:38
of thought into his response.
01:12:40
>> Well, I got a screenshot from a famous
01:12:42
Hawaiian singer who's friends with the
01:12:44
family and he had messaged, you know,
01:12:47
them saying, "Has Dwayne seen the video?
01:12:48
Has Dwayne seen the video?" And his wife
01:12:51
responded saying, "My husband has been
01:12:52
on his knees all morning in tears."
01:12:55
Because he too resonated with the story
01:12:57
>> of witnessing his mom be subjected to
01:12:59
similar violence.
01:13:01
Um, you mentioned your your mom just a
01:13:03
second ago. Do um can you remember your
01:13:05
last conversation with her?
01:13:08
>> Um, yes. Yep. It was all around healing.
01:13:12
>> Um, I I haven't shared this much, but
01:13:16
before my mom passed away, I invited my
01:13:19
brothers. Um, cuz I'm known as the
01:13:21
cheesy one in the family. So, all this
01:13:22
vulnerability, you know, talk, which I
01:13:25
call courageous and hard, my brothers
01:13:27
call it cheesy. It's like you and your
01:13:28
cheesy [ __ ] I own it.
01:13:29
>> Um, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, sweet."
01:13:31
Um, but I said, "Look, I want to have
01:13:33
these hard cord Tylenol with mom before
01:13:36
mom passes away. Um, I'm going to invite
01:13:38
mom and dad, you know, and just have
01:13:40
this conversation." My brother's like,
01:13:41
"Bro, we ain't doing none of that shit."
01:13:42
I said, "Well, I'm having it whether you
01:13:44
guys want to come or not." Anyways, my
01:13:45
older brothers end up coming. Um, cuz me
01:13:47
and the younger brothers like they
01:13:48
listen to me. The younger brothers like,
01:13:50
"Yeah, we're with you."
01:13:51
>> Um, but my older brothers are more
01:13:52
harder, you know, to get on get on board
01:13:55
with. And anyways, they came and I
01:13:57
remember sitting there while mom was
01:13:59
lying on her bed and I said I looked at
01:14:01
my dad and I said, "Dad,
01:14:03
do you know why you were so violent to
01:14:05
us? Why you were so chaotic? Why you
01:14:08
were so abusive?" You know what my old
01:14:10
man's response was?
01:14:12
What do you mean, son? I put food on the
01:14:14
table. I feed you guys. What more did
01:14:16
you want? When he said that, I looked at
01:14:19
my older brothers and they looked at me
01:14:21
like, "You [ __ ] we told you
01:14:23
that this was a waste of time.
01:14:26
But that response from my old man really
01:14:28
gave me insight. Man, dad, he's really
01:14:31
um disassociated
01:14:33
with, you know, our past, our childhood.
01:14:35
Like he's really either his mental
01:14:38
health is not all there or he just has
01:14:40
shut that completely out of his mind. Um
01:14:43
and that was really it was the after
01:14:45
talk after chat with my siblings and
01:14:46
mom, you know, mom just saying, "Son,
01:14:49
that's your dad." you know, forgive him
01:14:51
not for his sake, but forgive him for
01:14:53
you so you can be the dad for, you know,
01:14:55
my my moles. You can be the dad for my
01:14:57
grandchildren. Um, and that's all I
01:15:00
needed to hear from my mom, you know.
01:15:03
>> How do you reflect on her life?
01:15:23
Say it.
01:15:34
I don't think there were
01:15:38
I don't think there were many many happy
01:15:40
days in my mom's life. And I think sad
01:15:43
because
01:15:45
I wish she was here to see what her pain
01:15:49
how transforming what we've done to
01:15:51
transform our pain which was her pain
01:15:54
and the movement that's created you know
01:15:57
like I've received thousands of letters
01:15:59
from from women from men from children
01:16:03
who finally understand the correlation
01:16:06
of their trauma to their behavior you
01:16:08
know and why they've perpetrated this
01:16:10
violence.
01:16:12
And I think I think of my mom. I think
01:16:15
sad that you don't get to see you don't
01:16:17
get to see and experience and listen to
01:16:19
the stories of us of what happens when
01:16:22
you own your story, the entirety of your
01:16:25
story, the good, the bad, and the ugly
01:16:27
>> and transform it and and see what the
01:16:29
healing can bring. Like I never thought
01:16:30
that this would spark this global
01:16:32
movement where you I mean I've received
01:16:34
letters from people all around the
01:16:35
world.
01:16:36
>> You know people who I thought would
01:16:38
never ever resonate with a brown boy
01:16:40
story down in little old tahi and Christ
01:16:43
Church from the UK from Wales from
01:16:46
Scotland you know men incarcerated all
01:16:48
around the world in Hawaii um in the
01:16:50
islands who just connect to mom's story.
01:16:53
And so I think um I'm very very sad when
01:16:56
I think of mom. I'm very sad.
01:16:59
Yeah, it's bloody crazy.
01:17:00
>> Sorry, bro.
01:17:01
>> No, absolutely not.
01:17:04
>> [ __ ] She must have been proud.
01:17:06
>> I hope so.
01:17:08
>> What do you mean?
01:17:08
>> She was She was proud, but I hope she's
01:17:10
proud now like even more that Oh, Sonia,
01:17:12
keep speaking up.
01:17:14
>> You know, um, she was proud. Like, no,
01:17:16
she would always say she was proud of
01:17:17
us. Like anyone who was friends, my mom,
01:17:19
even some of her friends now message me
01:17:20
like, "Man, your mom would always gloat
01:17:22
about you guys when she'll come and play
01:17:24
with us on a Friday." She would always,
01:17:26
she couldn't stop talking about her
01:17:27
sons. Um, so I know she was proud, but I
01:17:29
hope wherever she's she is today, um, in
01:17:33
the sky or wherever with my children.
01:17:35
Um, she's super proud.
01:17:40
>> Thanks for sharing that.
01:17:41
>> Yeah.
01:17:42
>> Thanks for making me cry. Your first
01:17:43
freaking podcast has made me cry.
01:17:47
>> Um, yeah. Well, one thing I've learned
01:17:49
about you is, um, yeah, you've got a lot
01:17:52
of people crying.
01:17:54
you've normally and and I reckon um yeah
01:17:57
like you know talking about when I was
01:17:58
growing up like yeah you just didn't
01:18:00
want to be like crying was was a weak a
01:18:02
weak sort of trait and it's something
01:18:03
you didn't want to do and I don't know I
01:18:05
often find as I get older I'm sort of
01:18:06
leaning into it a bit more.
01:18:07
>> Yeah.
01:18:08
>> It's funny like when you see always I
01:18:10
always hear this echo when you start to
01:18:12
cry and you hear it's like stop crying
01:18:14
or I'll give you something to cry. I was
01:18:15
like I'm already crying you know.
01:18:18
>> Yeah we had that one too.
01:18:20
>> Yeah. Stop crying or I'll give you
01:18:20
something to cry about. I was like
01:18:26
um so the the book she is not your rehab
01:18:29
did did did that come about as a result
01:18:31
of the TED talk was that the order of
01:18:33
things or was
01:18:34
>> it came after the TED talk but we were
01:18:36
already writing this so this came out um
01:18:38
we were approached by Penguin um when
01:18:40
the mosque shooting happened in Christ
01:18:42
Church where we lost a lot of our Muslim
01:18:44
Faro um our our barber shop became one
01:18:47
of the hubs so we had a lot of friends
01:18:50
clients who were social workers and they
01:18:51
were just messaging us like, "Bro, we
01:18:53
can't access any help for our Muslim
01:18:54
Faro. Can you do put something up on
01:18:56
your socials?" And so I reached out to
01:18:58
our community and then all of a sudden
01:19:00
all these influencers around the country
01:19:01
were like, "If you guys, you know, want
01:19:03
to, you know, skip the red tape, just
01:19:05
donate whatever you can to the barber
01:19:06
shop. They've got social workers who
01:19:07
will just go and dividend this, give
01:19:09
this out to the um Muslim community."
01:19:12
And so yeah, Penguin approached us. They
01:19:13
came and donated thousands of dollars of
01:19:15
books to our Muslim Faro. And then they
01:19:17
approached, hey, we send your TED talk
01:19:19
like we are you guys doing anything? are
01:19:20
you writing anything? Like, well, we
01:19:22
are. We're writing this book. And so, we
01:19:24
signed off Penguin.
01:19:25
>> Yeah. And it's not just not just a book.
01:19:28
It's like a it's a a very helpful
01:19:29
resource. Um, what was the hardest
01:19:32
chapter to write?
01:19:35
>> She is not your shame.
01:19:37
>> Um, I think cuz when I wrote this book,
01:19:41
I didn't want to I didn't want it to be
01:19:42
another trauma dump story where I just,
01:19:45
you know, vomited everything that I've
01:19:46
gone up for, grew up in. I wanted to
01:19:48
have proper tools, proper insights that
01:19:50
would actually help people. Um, and so I
01:19:53
said to my wife when we were writing
01:19:54
this, I said, I don't want to paint my
01:19:56
parents um into this image that they're
01:19:59
just perpetrators and monsters, you
01:20:00
know, why didn't she leave him? Why
01:20:02
didn't he stop, you know, abusing her? I
01:20:04
wanted to wrap it around with compassion
01:20:06
and empathy because my siblings will be
01:20:07
reading this. My faro will be reading
01:20:09
this and we are the ones that have to
01:20:10
live with this, not, you know, the the
01:20:12
comment section, the cheap seats, people
01:20:14
who are sitting in cheap seats. We have
01:20:15
to live with the aftermath for this. Um
01:20:18
and so the hardest chapter when it came
01:20:20
to it my wife said to me rang me up
01:20:22
actually she was up here in Oakuckland
01:20:24
writing the book I was back home with
01:20:25
the kids and she said would you ever
01:20:28
share about blah blah blah blah blah I
01:20:30
said how to know we are putting that in
01:20:32
the book I am never ever sharing that
01:20:34
and she said okay well I just thought
01:20:35
I'll ask but my wife knows me well all
01:20:37
she has to do is plant the seed and then
01:20:40
she knows it will just grow into
01:20:41
something else anyways a year later I
01:20:44
had been sitting on that question and I
01:20:46
came to I was you know what I think we
01:20:48
should talk about that you know and so
01:20:50
chapter three where she is not ashamed
01:20:51
where I talk about being um humiliated
01:20:55
one of my and it's affected my adult
01:20:57
life um one of my experiences of
01:21:01
childhood trauma was being stripped
01:21:02
naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked
01:21:04
at because of how my body looked you
01:21:06
know I wasn't the same physical athlete
01:21:09
as my my siblings um I've always been
01:21:12
the chubbier one and so yeah whenever
01:21:16
cousins and family members came around,
01:21:18
if they wanted a good laugh, my mom
01:21:19
would just yell out to my siblings, "Go
01:21:21
get Matt, come in, strip him naked, and
01:21:23
just laugh laugh at me and my genitals."
01:21:25
And so that really,
01:21:28
to put it friendly, [ __ ] me up, you
01:21:31
know?
01:21:32
>> How can it not?
01:21:32
>> Yeah. How can it not? I just it just
01:21:34
people say, "Oh, you know, I I didn't
01:21:37
sleep with people physically because I
01:21:39
was so traumatized from that, you know,
01:21:41
the
01:21:43
feeling that I could give someone myself
01:21:46
physically intimately. I just thought,
01:21:47
nah, I'll just get laughed and mocked
01:21:49
at, you know, and that happened not just
01:21:51
once, not just two, three, four, five
01:21:53
times, like constantly right throughout
01:21:54
my childhood." Um but funny in sharing
01:21:57
that that chapter has become the most
01:22:00
powerful chapter, the most that I've
01:22:02
ever received um responses and letters
01:22:04
from men everywhere. Um a lot of men
01:22:07
struggle with body shame, you know, but
01:22:09
we don't talk about it
01:22:10
>> and so yeah, it's been probably the most
01:22:13
powerful chapter and so I'm glad I've
01:22:14
I've put it in the book.
01:22:16
>> [ __ ] How do you get over something like
01:22:18
that?
01:22:20
>> Long long time. I mean, I've been
01:22:22
married to my wife for coming up 10
01:22:24
years, and that's been a journey in
01:22:26
itself. You know, I remember when I
01:22:28
first made love to my wife. It was just
01:22:30
in tears, you know. I just I was in the
01:22:32
toilet crying. She sh like, "Are you all
01:22:35
right?" I was like, "Yeah, well, I just
01:22:37
>> I've just haven't been physically
01:22:38
intimate with anyone because of my
01:22:40
childhood trauma, you know. I just
01:22:41
didn't trust people. I didn't I hate
01:22:43
being touched. I hate anything like
01:22:45
that. You know, you're the first person
01:22:46
I've given this to. And so, let me
01:22:49
gather myself, you know.
01:22:51
Did did anyone not that not that it can
01:22:53
take away what happened but did anyone
01:22:54
apologize for that like did your mom
01:22:56
apologize or any of you know your
01:22:58
brothers or cousins that were laughing
01:23:00
at you?
01:23:00
>> Not not so much my cousins. I don't hold
01:23:02
them responsible for that. Um but my mom
01:23:05
apologized cuz I had the hard out
01:23:07
conversation with her. Do you remember
01:23:08
when you used to do this to me? So you
01:23:09
know how much it's [ __ ] me up. And my
01:23:12
mom I'm so sorry son. So why did you
01:23:14
find that was funny? That's not funny.
01:23:16
Like that scarred me for life. It's
01:23:17
affected you know my relationships.
01:23:20
And yeah, my mom just owned it. She' I'm
01:23:22
so sorry.
01:23:23
>> I'm so sorry. So yeah.
01:23:27
>> Yeah. I mean, I suppose that's all you
01:23:29
like compare that response to your dad's
01:23:31
response. Like what are you talking
01:23:33
about? At least there's um I don't know.
01:23:35
I suppose a sense of like ownership or
01:23:37
acknowledgement.
01:23:38
>> Yeah, 100%. Now,
01:23:39
>> how did how did you get how did you get
01:23:41
the book into into um corrections? Like
01:23:44
every jail cell in New Zealand got got a
01:23:46
copy of this book. Every person
01:23:47
incarcerated in 2021 ended up receiving
01:23:49
a book for Christmas.
01:23:50
>> Yeah. Which is like what, 10,000 people?
01:23:52
>> Yeah. 9,350 people.
01:23:54
>> Shocking number. By the way, I think
01:23:55
most people have probably been to Spark
01:23:57
Arena. This is like an arena full of uh
01:24:00
people.
01:24:01
>> Yeah.
01:24:01
>> Yeah. We um while we asked Penguin, our
01:24:04
publishing um publishers, that this was
01:24:07
the dream. My and the reason why my
01:24:08
dream was to get it into every person
01:24:10
incarcerated was because I was a boy at
01:24:12
home waiting patiently every time my dad
01:24:14
did a long leg in prison for domestic
01:24:16
violence or something stupid. We were
01:24:18
hoping and praying that someone would
01:24:20
say something to him while he was sober.
01:24:21
This was the opportunity to speak to
01:24:23
him, speak some sense to him while he
01:24:25
was sober. Unfortunately, that day never
01:24:27
came. You know, 39 years on this earth
01:24:29
and my dad still drinks alcohol. You
01:24:32
know, was still abusive to my mom right
01:24:34
up until she died. And so, um, yeah, we
01:24:37
ended up raising the funds. We knocked
01:24:39
on different organizations, the police,
01:24:41
uh, a moldy organization back in Christ
01:24:43
Church. People gifted us money and we
01:24:45
ended up buying the book. So, we bought
01:24:46
it at wholesale. We didn't make any
01:24:48
money from it. Um, it didn't go on the
01:24:50
best sellers list like, and we just
01:24:52
donated it. So, by Christmas 2021, every
01:24:55
person incarcerated ended up receiving a
01:24:56
book.
01:24:57
>> [ __ ] you've got a big heart, don't you?
01:24:59
You and Sarah.
01:25:00
>> Thank you, bro.
01:25:01
>> Um, you you must get a lot of jail mail.
01:25:04
A lot, bro. A lot. And then one time the
01:25:06
postman was like, "What are you guys
01:25:08
running in prison?" Cuz all the leaders
01:25:09
that will come to the barber show a
01:25:10
letter from a prison envelope.
01:25:13
>> I was like, "No, bro. We're just running
01:25:14
a a healing trade." So,
01:25:17
>> what's the um Yeah. What's the general
01:25:19
theme of the messages? People sharing
01:25:21
their own stories.
01:25:22
>> Sharing their own stories. Horrific
01:25:23
stories, bro. Like, I think my story was
01:25:26
bad. There's some guys in there who are
01:25:28
just like you. I have not seen a movie
01:25:31
or documentary of this [ __ ] that a lot
01:25:33
of our tan here in this country have
01:25:34
experienced.
01:25:36
>> Prison is the biggest collection of
01:25:38
traumatized people in society. So if you
01:25:40
think of aces, adverse childhood
01:25:42
experiences, people in prison probably
01:25:44
have six or more. Out of the top 10
01:25:46
aces, people in prison have six or more.
01:25:52
>> Yeah. That's the curious thing about you
01:25:53
because you you you treat someone like
01:25:55
an animal and chances are they're going
01:25:57
to end up being like an animal, but you
01:25:58
it seems like you've never
01:26:01
you you never had to break the cycle.
01:26:04
It's like you've just you were just
01:26:05
always destined to be on this good path,
01:26:07
right? As a as a good man.
01:26:08
>> I hope so. And it's funny. I mean, I
01:26:10
grew up in a Catholic church, too. And
01:26:12
um my wife asked me this question the
01:26:14
other day. She said, "You know what?
01:26:15
What did you used to pray for when you
01:26:16
were a kid? You know what I used to pray
01:26:18
to Satan?" And when I say that to some
01:26:19
of you, I used to pray to Satan, the
01:26:21
devil. I I used to as a kid I used to
01:26:23
pray to the devil and ask him to change
01:26:25
like please stop being mean you know you
01:26:27
be better stop hurting people you but
01:26:29
that's just who I was as a kid I used to
01:26:31
always Yeah.
01:26:32
>> Oh that's so sweet.
01:26:33
>> I know bro I look back like man I am a
01:26:36
weer who asked the devil to change
01:26:39
>> me.
01:26:41
I think it's like there's a quote that
01:26:42
you really um that you use saying um you
01:26:45
know we're more alike than what we are
01:26:47
different. I think that's the quote.
01:26:48
Yeah. It's like you just want to see the
01:26:50
good in everybody, even Satan.
01:26:52
>> Yeah. Well, that's I mean, how can you
01:26:54
not when you're listening to men? I've
01:26:56
sat with lawyers, judges, men in suits
01:26:58
whom I thought, man, I've never sit on
01:27:00
the same table as you, you know, but
01:27:02
when I actually hear their stories, too.
01:27:04
>> Shame doesn't discriminate.
01:27:05
>> Pain doesn't discriminate. Mental health
01:27:07
doesn't discriminate. Like, we're all
01:27:08
more alike than we are different. And if
01:27:10
people just actually took the time to
01:27:12
sit and listen to each other, we
01:27:14
wouldn't be living in the [ __ ] up
01:27:15
world that we're living in right now
01:27:16
currently.
01:27:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I found from
01:27:19
doing this podcast is like most people
01:27:21
are hard to dislike up close.
01:27:23
>> Yeah.
01:27:24
>> You know,
01:27:24
>> hard.
01:27:25
>> Um Yeah. In your story, there's a lot of
01:27:28
um intergenerational trauma. What advice
01:27:30
would you give to someone who doesn't
01:27:31
know where to start in breaking the
01:27:32
cycle?
01:27:38
>> The most courageous thing you can do is
01:27:40
own your story.
01:27:42
And when you're ready to do that, find
01:27:45
someone who's safe enough for you to do
01:27:46
that with.
01:27:47
find the right person because not every
01:27:49
person's safe. Um, not every counselor
01:27:52
is for everyone, but there is someone
01:27:54
out there. Doesn't have to be a
01:27:55
counselor. Could be a teacher, could be
01:27:56
a friend. Um,
01:27:59
find someone who's safe enough for you
01:28:01
to open up to. That's I believe is the
01:28:03
first step.
01:28:05
>> I love how much of a pause you gave
01:28:07
there and how much thought you put into
01:28:08
that answer.
01:28:09
>> Thank you.
01:28:10
>> Your words Your words carry a lot of
01:28:12
weight and a lot of power. What's a
01:28:14
truth about masculinity that more men
01:28:16
need to hear? But most probably aren't
01:28:18
ready for
01:28:21
when you suppress
01:28:24
what's the word.
01:28:31
We're human beings, not human doings.
01:28:33
We're human beings.
01:28:35
>> So we're all born with emotional and you
01:28:38
know emotional feelings, etc. When you
01:28:41
suppress or deny yourself any of those
01:28:43
things, whether it's grief, anger, hurt,
01:28:46
pain, you're also denying your humanity.
01:28:51
And so, I think being masculine is
01:28:53
embracing all of that.
01:28:55
>> Embracing all of that and owning it and
01:28:57
carrying yourself well so you don't
01:28:59
transmit that pain onto those who you
01:29:00
claim to love the most, our children,
01:29:02
our partners. And I so I think masculine
01:29:06
to me is someone who
01:29:11
just owns owns their entire story.
01:29:16
>> I love that. In your experience, what's
01:29:18
the biggest thing men get wrong about
01:29:19
healing?
01:29:21
>> That it's cheese. Um
01:29:24
that it's butterflies and rainbows. It's
01:29:26
not. It's freaking hard.
01:29:28
>> Healing is one of the most hardest
01:29:29
things you will ever do. Um, I've seen
01:29:32
grown as men whom society think are
01:29:34
gangsters are the toughest crumble
01:29:37
on their knees and tears when they start
01:29:40
healing.
01:29:42
Healing is as masculine as it gets. You
01:29:44
know, I think doing the work, whatever
01:29:46
that whatever that work looks like,
01:29:48
whether it's opening up, whether it's
01:29:49
being better, whether it's opening the
01:29:51
door for your partner, whether it's
01:29:52
getting up and thinking about your
01:29:54
partner before she even thinks of what
01:29:55
she needs next. You know, to me, that's
01:29:57
what being masculine is. My wife is
01:29:59
currently sick with stage 4
01:30:00
endometriosis.
01:30:02
I grew up not even being educated on
01:30:05
what endometriosis is, let alone what
01:30:07
women go through. So I think to myself,
01:30:08
man, my mom must have went through so
01:30:10
many things, you know, of her cycle, she
01:30:12
never ever disclosed to us boys, you
01:30:14
know, what she would have had to go
01:30:15
through by herself. And I just think
01:30:17
being masculine is knowing what my best
01:30:21
friend, what my children need before
01:30:23
they even before it even comes to them,
01:30:26
before they even ask me. And so
01:30:28
>> yeah, I'm always learning. You know,
01:30:31
>> you've said that healing is a daily
01:30:32
practice and not just a one-time event.
01:30:34
What does what does that look like for
01:30:36
you today?
01:30:38
>> Sorry, can you say that again, bro?
01:30:39
>> Um, yeah, healing is a you've said
01:30:41
healing is a daily practice and not just
01:30:42
a one-time event. So, like for you like
01:30:45
here and now today, what does healing
01:30:47
look like?
01:30:48
>> Um, I think it's just a constant
01:30:51
opportunity to keep yourself regulated.
01:30:54
um a con constant opportunity um to
01:30:56
evolve and do better. Um not overreact
01:31:00
but respond.
01:31:03
>> Um but always searching for the truth.
01:31:06
What is the truth here in this moment?
01:31:08
You know, if people are triggered or if
01:31:10
I'm triggered, what's the truth here?
01:31:11
Did this person really mean harm to me?
01:31:13
Or did this keyboard warrior, you know,
01:31:15
really want to stomp on my mana online
01:31:18
or are they just going through their own
01:31:20
thing, you know? So what's the truth
01:31:22
here? And
01:31:22
>> so I think for me that question when
01:31:25
you're always asking yourself what is
01:31:26
the truth here in every situation there
01:31:29
is always room for growth and healing.
01:31:32
>> Yeah. And I think like a living example
01:31:33
of what you just said was the guy that
01:31:35
came into the shop and said it should be
01:31:36
he is not your rehab. Um and how you
01:31:38
reacted to that.
01:31:39
>> Yeah.
01:31:40
>> Um yeah. What sort of legacy do you hope
01:31:43
this book and this movement will leave
01:31:45
behind in you know 10 20 30 40 50 years?
01:31:50
The legacy I hope is we create a
01:31:52
generation of cycle breakers. We have
01:31:54
more men who are emotionally um literate
01:31:57
um more emotional intelligence cuz I
01:32:00
think if we have children who are
01:32:02
growing up with emotional literacy we
01:32:04
wouldn't have the violence that we have
01:32:05
today. We wouldn't have the statistics
01:32:07
that we have today. Why is it that New
01:32:08
Zealand altered has the highest
01:32:11
statistics in the OECD world of family
01:32:14
violence? Why do we have the highest
01:32:16
rates of suicide for adolesccents aged
01:32:18
15 to n 19 years old in this country in
01:32:21
the world?
01:32:22
>> Emotional literacy is lacking. But I get
01:32:24
it, you know, like teachers are signing
01:32:26
up to be history teachers and coaches
01:32:28
and PE teachers. They didn't sign up to
01:32:30
be emotional, you know, regulators for
01:32:32
our kids. But somehow the school system
01:32:34
has become this place where you babysit
01:32:36
our kids while we go off to work and pay
01:32:38
our bills. Like it's hard to be the
01:32:40
teacher solely in charge of 20, you
01:32:43
know, hearts and minds in one hour and
01:32:46
yours now your sole job is to teach them
01:32:48
emotional literacy. Like
01:32:50
>> we need a village. We we need to stop
01:32:53
overp profofessionalizing everything. We
01:32:55
need teachers, coaches, choir directors,
01:32:58
all trauma informed and emotionally
01:33:00
aware to help our people. That's the
01:33:02
legacy I hope um our books, our copa
01:33:05
leaves.
01:33:08
That's such a good answer, man. I'm just
01:33:11
hanging off every word you say. You're
01:33:13
so wise, eh?
01:33:16
What's your What's your inner critic
01:33:18
like?
01:33:20
>> Um, it's gotten better.
01:33:22
>> It's gotten better. I think um
01:33:26
I've been the hardest on myself. I'm I'm
01:33:29
a creative, so you know, perfection I've
01:33:31
had a strange relationship with
01:33:32
perfectionism. Um but I you know I think
01:33:35
the art the artist in me believes well
01:33:38
it is what it is you know um but my
01:33:41
inner critic
01:33:42
>> he pops up here and there um Matt you
01:33:44
could do better or you know Matt you
01:33:47
could have done that better for your
01:33:49
wife and for me the person who I live to
01:33:52
try and um
01:33:55
to serve is my dear wife
01:33:58
>> and and I say that because when I say I
01:34:00
wouldn't be who I am today if not for
01:34:02
her like I want to give her all the
01:34:04
flowers and give her the time that I
01:34:06
have because the the moment I met Sarah
01:34:08
and and chose to do this life and be in
01:34:11
this partnership marriage, it's been the
01:34:14
happiest years of my life, you know,
01:34:16
more happier than any of my childhood
01:34:18
memories. So, I thought, why wouldn't I
01:34:19
want to see the store flourish and grow
01:34:22
into something that it um it could be?
01:34:24
And it is, you know, my children will
01:34:26
never ever know of, you know, raised
01:34:29
voices, you know, tears and broken
01:34:31
plates, bruised faces. They will never
01:34:34
ever know that
01:34:35
>> because I constantly want to be this man
01:34:37
for my wife.
01:34:38
>> Yeah.
01:34:39
>> Well, you're a powerful dude. Um, she's
01:34:41
a powerful woman. And together, I don't
01:34:44
know. It's just it's just this dynamic
01:34:47
almost like the Avengers or something. I
01:34:49
don't know. Um, yeah. When when you when
01:34:52
you brush your teeth in the evening and
01:34:54
you look in the mirror, you you know,
01:34:55
you like the man looking back at you.
01:34:57
>> 100%.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. Very happy with the man I am
01:35:00
today.
01:35:00
>> Yeah.
01:35:02
>> What do you mean?
01:35:02
>> I feel like I'm in my peace um season.
01:35:05
Like even my wife was saying like you
01:35:07
seem real peaceful,
01:35:08
>> you know, this this year. I like Yeah. I
01:35:10
think after closing the barber shop in
01:35:13
2023
01:35:15
um doing this mahi doing this work and
01:35:17
just watching my children grow up you
01:35:19
know with joy and happy and the
01:35:20
privilege that they have you know
01:35:21
>> like don't get me wrong I educate them
01:35:23
on what's happening around the world in
01:35:25
different countries where children are
01:35:26
getting bombed and I say you know we
01:35:30
have to be we have to use our privilege
01:35:32
to be voices for those who are voiceless
01:35:36
you know and so I don't take it lightly
01:35:38
that I was that we won the lottery being
01:35:40
born here in Alteor. Um
01:35:45
but yeah,
01:35:46
>> you what's what's your personal
01:35:48
definition of success?
01:35:52
>> Well, you just said being at peace with
01:35:53
myself.
01:35:54
>> Um what I just shared with you before my
01:35:56
personal definition of success is
01:35:59
knowing that my children want to hang
01:36:00
around me. I mean, our daughter's 22 and
01:36:03
she still wants to hang around us, you
01:36:04
know,
01:36:04
>> and it's not a given. and her boyfriend
01:36:06
wants to hang around us, you know, who's
01:36:07
in whose son-in-law wants to hang around
01:36:09
with his, you know, in-laws. Um, to me,
01:36:12
that's success. I'm at peace with
01:36:13
myself. Um,
01:36:15
>> and if if someone's not at peace with
01:36:17
me, look, come court, I'll happily talk
01:36:19
to anyone who wants to have a a corridor
01:36:22
with me about anything. But
01:36:23
>> yeah, I'm 100% happy with myself. I'm
01:36:26
happy with the man I am. I love my
01:36:28
marriage. I adore my children. I love my
01:36:30
friends. And Faro, um, to me, that's
01:36:33
success. You couldn't give me a billion
01:36:35
dollars. I mean, you could and I'll do
01:36:37
more and help people.
01:36:38
>> Why would you give you a billion? You
01:36:40
just give it straight away. Give it
01:36:41
away. Yeah. No, we love that about you.
01:36:44
If this was the last podcast you ever
01:36:45
did, um, is there anything you'd want to
01:36:47
say that you that you haven't said?
01:36:53
>> Far, great question.
01:37:11
Um,
01:37:23
I would say to everyone if whoever is
01:37:25
listening,
01:37:27
if you are privileged in whatever form
01:37:29
that looks like,
01:37:32
Please use it for those who are not.
01:37:35
Please use your power, your platform,
01:37:38
your privilege
01:37:40
for those who are not because there are
01:37:41
many people who are not in the same
01:37:44
position. And I think we as a race, we
01:37:46
as a society, we as a culture are only
01:37:48
as good as our neighbor. And if our
01:37:51
neighbors
01:37:53
are in desperate need of our help, our
01:37:55
voices, whatever it is, whatever our
01:37:57
privilege is, I think use it. or else to
01:38:00
me you just sound like you're full of
01:38:01
[ __ ] Anything you do, any good that you
01:38:04
do and you're, you know, claiming I
01:38:07
don't know whatever it is, but you're
01:38:08
not thinking about our most
01:38:09
disadvantaged and underprivileged in our
01:38:11
society. To me, you're full of [ __ ]
01:38:13
>> And so I just strongly encourage those
01:38:16
who are in privileged positions and in
01:38:18
power position positions, please think
01:38:21
of our our least our most vulnerable.
01:38:25
Um, and
01:38:28
for those who have been on my journey,
01:38:30
like, thank you so much. I love you. And
01:38:34
those who I have the honor and privilege
01:38:36
to meet in person. I'm sorry if I look
01:38:38
like a snob. I'm not a snob. I guarantee
01:38:40
you that. I'm just an introvert. I'm a
01:38:42
very quiet person. Um, but anyone who's
01:38:45
doing this, Mahi, for our most
01:38:47
vulnerable, I love you and I thank you
01:38:49
because those children who were
01:38:51
vulnerable are me and my siblings. and
01:38:54
how I wish someone stood beside me and
01:38:56
said, "Matt, this was never yours to
01:38:57
carry.
01:38:58
>> I wouldn't, you know, because even
01:39:00
though I'm lucky enough to turn out this
01:39:01
way,
01:39:02
>> some of my faro and my extended faro
01:39:05
haven't been so lucky. Some of my faro
01:39:07
are incarcerated,
01:39:09
>> you know, and so we may have grown up
01:39:11
with the same parents,
01:39:12
>> but we all experienced different
01:39:14
parents, you know.
01:39:16
Well, I I I've loved the time that we've
01:39:19
spent together, not just in the podcast
01:39:20
today, but um other times you've been
01:39:22
here at Pod Lab to do a podcast, and
01:39:24
you're you're someone that I don't know,
01:39:26
I just feel comfortable sitting in
01:39:27
silence with,
01:39:28
>> you know, not having to not having to
01:39:30
necessarily speak or say anything. You
01:39:31
just have that sort of like presence. Um
01:39:34
[ __ ] Yeah. 5 years, sevenyear-old,
01:39:37
10year-old Matt. Yeah. What would he
01:39:39
think of this dude?
01:39:42
>> Man, I thought he made me want to cry
01:39:44
even asking that question.
01:39:46
Man, if I if five 17y old me seen
01:39:52
who I am today, I would just cry.
01:39:54
>> I would it would give me so much hope
01:39:57
>> that this is the man I am. That I would
01:40:00
have this family. I would have children
01:40:01
who run to me, fight over a hug when I
01:40:03
get through the door.
01:40:05
>> I would just cry like, man, is that
01:40:07
going to be the life that I live? Okay,
01:40:08
I'll hold on.
01:40:11
>> Yeah, there's hope, eh?
01:40:12
>> Yep. 100%.
01:40:15
Matt Brown, hell of a podcast. Love you,
01:40:17
my bro.
01:40:18
>> Love you, too, brother. Thank you for
01:40:19
your mahi, bro, and for your courageous
01:40:21
conversations and the guests that you've
01:40:22
had over the years that I've been an
01:40:24
honor to listen to. Thank you for having
01:40:26
me
01:40:26
>> being such an honor and I love every
01:40:28
time I get to hug you, bro. You're
01:40:29
you're a great hugger. You're a good
01:40:31
man.
01:40:32
>> You You too. And you and your wife,
01:40:33
Sarah, love what you're doing. And um
01:40:35
yeah, just can't wait to see where this
01:40:37
movement that you guys have created
01:40:38
goes.
01:40:39
>> Thank you all. Appreciate it.