RETURN TO CHANNEL

Search Captions & Ask AI

Rosie Overcomer, Former Gloriavale Member: “They Tried to Run My Husband Over”

May 12, 2024 / 01:31:06

Video

00:00:00

[Music]

00:00:27

Rosie Overcomer welcome to my podcast

00:00:30

just throwing her phone to Theo who's

00:00:31

sitting on the sofa how are you I'm good

00:00:34

thanks um thanks for having me Don oh

00:00:36

thank you so much for coming over um by

00:00:38

by the way um you you're wearing jeans

00:00:40

and a shirt with the sleeves rolled up

00:00:43

they are very sexy

00:00:47

elbows I did roll my sleeves down yeah

00:00:50

can you can you I I I just I might be

00:00:52

tempted oh dear um anyone that's uh

00:00:56

listening to this or watching this that

00:00:58

hasn't seen um uh what's it called

00:01:01

finding Utopia escaping escaping Utopia

00:01:04

um they'll have no idea what we're

00:01:05

talking about but yeah the elbows get a

00:01:07

mention they do they do hey it's so good

00:01:10

to have you here today um one thing I

00:01:13

wanted to know is

00:01:16

um why don't you have the glory of Al

00:01:18

accent did you have you know CU there's

00:01:20

like a sort of voice yes there is that

00:01:23

that new zealanders I think associate

00:01:25

with people from Gloria val did you did

00:01:26

you did you speak like that when you

00:01:27

left and it's worn off or no

00:01:30

um I would have definitely spoken like

00:01:32

that when I left um I think there's a

00:01:35

whole lot of reasons why you have the

00:01:36

accent and I guess you're living in an

00:01:38

isolated Community you only hear the

00:01:40

people that you're listening to um

00:01:42

there's not a lot of outside influence

00:01:45

so um you pick up your own accent much

00:01:49

like any small town or other isolated

00:01:51

area would and then when you leave then

00:01:54

you take on unknowingly like I didn't

00:01:57

intend to change my accent when I left

00:01:59

but would have been maybe a year after

00:02:02

we left that I went back in at one point

00:02:05

and one of my sisters said to me you've

00:02:07

got an

00:02:08

accent and that's when I kind of

00:02:11

realized that they actually had an

00:02:14

accent um and I think there's some other

00:02:16

reasons for that too like um they really

00:02:19

encourage women to have a sweet and

00:02:23

almost childlike voice um so people that

00:02:26

speak like that are encouraged um

00:02:29

there's a bit of and then also I think

00:02:31

there's quite a drone in their accent

00:02:33

and that I really believe is because

00:02:35

they don't have any individual

00:02:36

personality and they're kind of

00:02:38

repeating what they hear um and so it's

00:02:42

almost a robotic kind of um accent that

00:02:45

they've picked up yeah yeah so you've

00:02:48

how old are you now what are you 37 37

00:02:51

and it's like the 11 year just over the

00:02:53

11 year anniversary so the first 26

00:02:55

years of your life um you were in glory

00:02:57

ofil or a variation of that beforehand

00:02:59

um how has your faith changed since

00:03:01

leaving are you are you still religious

00:03:03

I am but I just backtrack a little bit

00:03:05

I'm actually 38 I just

00:03:08

remembered I've just had a birthday so

00:03:10

I'm 38 so I was actually I was 27 when I

00:03:12

left yes right that's a forgivable lie

00:03:15

I'll tell you what I I have to my mom

00:03:17

used to do that I'll be like how do you

00:03:18

not know how old you are and now I'm I'm

00:03:20

51 and us to to count the years yeah I'm

00:03:22

the same yeah yes so Al so so you still

00:03:24

you're still religious um yes I am I'd

00:03:27

say I'm a Christian now and what I was

00:03:30

in glor of Val was religious and I um

00:03:34

hopeful and glor of Val were my God yeah

00:03:37

so different but um I am a Christian now

00:03:40

yeah and and you're in Oakland at the

00:03:41

moment um doing legal stuff connected

00:03:43

with Gloria ofil what what are you doing

00:03:44

can you talk about that or um I can just

00:03:47

say that the authorities are listening

00:03:49

now and so we've done some work around

00:03:51

that and now that's in their hands and I

00:03:53

hope that they do what they can with it

00:03:56

um but that's really all I can say about

00:03:58

it yeah that's cool why

00:04:01

um yeah I mean it's it's really good

00:04:03

that you're you're doing that um I think

00:04:06

it takes a lot of courage and a lot of

00:04:07

lot of Bravery

00:04:09

um why didn't you just like turn you

00:04:11

back on the whole thing and think I've

00:04:12

got out you know yeah put the door on

00:04:15

this you box it up and just move on with

00:04:17

the rest of my life like draw a line in

00:04:18

the sand do you know what I mean that

00:04:19

would have been the easier thing to do I

00:04:20

think oh totally it would definitely be

00:04:23

easy to just walk away um I think the

00:04:27

main reason I haven't done that is

00:04:28

because um my family are still there a

00:04:33

lot of my family my friends and I guess

00:04:36

I understand what kind of regime they're

00:04:38

living under and that they have no idea

00:04:41

about um choice or consent or freedom

00:04:46

and I can't just walk away in good

00:04:48

conscience and leave them there to

00:04:50

suffer as I suffered um and with the

00:04:53

amount of abuse in that within that

00:04:56

environment um and how many children

00:04:58

there are and

00:05:00

uh I care about them I love them and so

00:05:02

I will keep going well good on yeah I

00:05:05

think that's really commendable because

00:05:07

yeah for anyone like I suppose a

00:05:08

generation older than you that made the

00:05:10

choice to be in there um that's fine and

00:05:12

that's one thing but then there's people

00:05:14

like you who were born in there didn't

00:05:16

have a say in the matter which is a

00:05:18

different kid of fish all together oh it

00:05:19

totally is um but even some of those

00:05:22

people who joined in the early days like

00:05:25

they joined something that they thought

00:05:26

it was and they've been coerced and and

00:05:29

manipulated to you know to live and

00:05:31

believe what it is now but if it if it

00:05:34

had started how it is now they would

00:05:37

never have joined um and so I think it's

00:05:41

important to note that those people

00:05:43

themselves even have been manipulated to

00:05:46

believe something that they wouldn't

00:05:48

have yeah do you I mean you you agreed

00:05:51

to come on the podcast today which I'm

00:05:52

so so thankful for by the way we

00:05:54

connected on Instagram it's like the

00:05:56

most unglory ofil way of connecting ever

00:05:59

um do you do you get sick of talking

00:06:00

about it or are you just are you just

00:06:02

that passionate about doing what's right

00:06:03

that you just want to keep the

00:06:04

conversation going as much as you can uh

00:06:07

probably a bit of both I definitely can

00:06:09

get sick of it um but I don't actually

00:06:13

think I'd probably call it sick of it

00:06:15

you just get tired and you can get

00:06:16

exhausted and especially if you feel

00:06:18

like the people that can do something

00:06:21

aren't listening um but I I do feel

00:06:24

passionate about helping them um

00:06:27

supporting them in whatever way I can

00:06:29

and so I'll keep going for that reason

00:06:31

so I guess yeah the passion drives that

00:06:33

but yeah I've definitely um been

00:06:36

exhausted and over it before and

00:06:38

thought you know maybe I should just

00:06:41

walk away but um it comes down to it

00:06:44

just they mean too much to me and I

00:06:47

can't yeah just leave them and you know

00:06:50

there's so many of us that have left

00:06:52

that are all doing our

00:06:54

own part and trying in our own way to

00:06:57

make a difference in their lives and if

00:06:59

we all just walked away um that'd go

00:07:02

back to how abusive they've been for 50

00:07:06

years and that's just not okay and it

00:07:09

can't happen and I mean we're a small

00:07:11

country there's 600 people which is you

00:07:14

know it's a big part of our small

00:07:15

country um and we can't just forget

00:07:18

about them yeah that's one thing I got

00:07:20

from um watching the that that amazing

00:07:23

three part series escaping Utopia on TV

00:07:25

andz plus um just the sense of um I

00:07:29

don't know know the sense of like

00:07:30

fairness or um the moral compass that

00:07:33

you and Elijah your amazing husband and

00:07:35

baby daddy have it's like I'm actually

00:07:37

getting emotional yeah thinking about it

00:07:40

um yeah just the the sense of like

00:07:42

what's right even when you're in there

00:07:44

and now carrying on yeah 11 years after

00:07:46

you've left with um the work you're

00:07:47

doing now

00:07:49

um about that show like when it's been

00:07:52

out like maybe a month now 5 weeks or

00:07:54

something I'm not sure when that came

00:07:55

out who yeah who who did you watch it

00:07:58

with what was evening like that day like

00:08:01

so we had watched it um quite a bit

00:08:05

earlier than everyone else oh you got

00:08:07

like an advance yeah we did but um

00:08:09

actually the night the first episode

00:08:11

came out I was in ockland at the time

00:08:13

with Theo and my sister pear um you Theo

00:08:16

by the way another one of the stars of

00:08:18

the documentary she has the for me I

00:08:20

think the line of the series uh do you

00:08:22

want to come over and say on mik come

00:08:24

over

00:08:26

here make sure the camera can see you

00:08:30

what is it the line about the

00:08:32

cheese I know how to make cheese but I

00:08:34

don't know who Taylor Swift is that's

00:08:37

the

00:08:39

line we'll have to get you back for your

00:08:41

own episode at some point I love that

00:08:43

line so much oh so yeah you're watching

00:08:45

with Theo and PE yeah so we watched it

00:08:46

with Theo and PE that first episode and

00:08:49

um it's quite funny because so we were

00:08:52

uh J to be on breakfast show the next

00:08:54

morning um and I could not sit still I

00:08:58

actually was ironing clothes cuz I

00:09:01

needed something to do and when there

00:09:03

was the way shot of me um in the laundry

00:09:06

pear my sister was sitting on the bead

00:09:08

and she films me she Sayes nothing's

00:09:13

changed um but yeah it was I guess it

00:09:17

it's nerve-wracking putting yourself out

00:09:20

there and realizing that you are now in

00:09:22

the public eye in a big way um but also

00:09:26

the purpose behind it is what keep me

00:09:29

yeah grounded and going I actually

00:09:31

haven't watched the other two episodes

00:09:33

since our first viewing um I see you

00:09:36

watched CU you're your your main part I

00:09:39

think is an episode two is that the

00:09:41

episode you watched or oh know so we

00:09:43

I've watched it all okay yeah I have

00:09:45

watched it all I'm in in every episode

00:09:48

um the first episode is kind of

00:09:50

introducing a lot of different um people

00:09:52

and there's a lot of Pilgrim in Boz and

00:09:54

then the second episode is more Elijah

00:09:56

and I and then the third episode is

00:09:58

where Theo and I went to India um but

00:10:02

yeah I have watched the whole thing just

00:10:03

when it came out to the New Zealand

00:10:05

Public I only watched the first episode

00:10:07

again with Theo and P yeah but is is it

00:10:10

emotional when you when you watch it or

00:10:12

like you know how how does it how does

00:10:13

it feel or do you manage to sort of

00:10:14

separate that no no it's emotional I I

00:10:17

just go straight back into it um and I

00:10:20

feel a lot like I'm back in there and I

00:10:23

think what does it to me too is that

00:10:25

it's still a reality for so many people

00:10:27

and I know my nieces and my neews in

00:10:30

that and so it still is so real to me

00:10:33

and I know what they're going through so

00:10:35

I I do struggle to separate myself from

00:10:38

that um yeah so it's emotional and it's

00:10:39

hard yeah so so when you leave after um

00:10:44

spending the first 26 years of your life

00:10:46

in there what what do you leave

00:10:48

with um what did we leave with we left

00:10:51

with um some of our clothes and you know

00:10:54

towels and bedding and um and our photos

00:10:58

really that was all yeah um the day we

00:11:01

left we packed up what we had and then

00:11:04

um one of the leaders came in and he

00:11:08

went through all our bags and pulled out

00:11:09

our Glory Veil clothes so that didn't

00:11:12

really leave us with anything um yeah

00:11:15

not a lot don't leave with a lot you

00:11:18

you've got one dress as a souvenir out

00:11:20

during he didn't find that one when he

00:11:22

went through our bags so why why why did

00:11:24

why did you want to keep that as a

00:11:25

souvenir why did you um well I didn't

00:11:28

originally think I was keeping it as a

00:11:30

souvenir like the reason we packed it is

00:11:31

because that's all we had um and but

00:11:35

I've just kept it because it is a big

00:11:38

part of my life um 27 years um of my

00:11:43

life and I can't just um pretend it

00:11:45

didn't exist cuz it did and that and to

00:11:48

me too that would be doing what gloral

00:11:50

does to people when they leave um they

00:11:52

burn photos um edit you out of videos

00:11:56

never speak your name and act as if you

00:11:58

didn't exist

00:12:00

and that's just um it's cutting off

00:12:02

something that is is actually real so I

00:12:04

can't do that yeah yeah it is um it's so

00:12:08

cruel and callous eh very cruel yeah

00:12:12

yeah it's do you think that's done by

00:12:14

Design to just remove any temptation of

00:12:17

leaving it's like if you leave that's it

00:12:19

you yeah absolutely it's it's done for

00:12:22

that reason and also to make sure

00:12:24

there's no connection with your family

00:12:26

so say when my brother left there's no

00:12:30

opportunity for connection with them CU

00:12:32

there's no um way to get hold of them

00:12:34

and they've so

00:12:37

um they're completely wiped from your

00:12:40

life so that they can't influence back

00:12:42

in and then you know influence you to

00:12:45

leave so yeah which is funny CU it's the

00:12:48

most it's the most unchristian thing

00:12:51

imaginable yes yeah you know just the

00:12:53

irony of it so there was there was a TV

00:12:56

documentary series um actually it's

00:12:58

still the episodes of it still up on the

00:13:00

glory OFA website this would have been

00:13:02

um I suppose about the time you either

00:13:05

left or were thinking about leaving do

00:13:06

you know the series I'm talking about a

00:13:08

bunch of episodes and it was sort like

00:13:09

felt like it was like propaganda in a

00:13:11

way for yeah I know ex the series you're

00:13:13

talking about does that how does that

00:13:15

make you feel does that make you feel

00:13:16

sort of angry it feels like I remember

00:13:18

watching it at the time and I was doing

00:13:19

a doing a radio show at the time on a

00:13:21

station called The Edge and we we sort

00:13:24

of I don't know I I suppose we sort of

00:13:26

bought into the glory of Al hype and

00:13:27

Dove love was very famous at the time um

00:13:32

what's Dove love doing is she still in

00:13:34

there Dove love is still in glor val

00:13:36

definitely was was she aware of her

00:13:38

level of fame or no not really probably

00:13:40

not really I think she knew to some

00:13:42

extent but no I don't think she would

00:13:45

ever understand unless she was out here

00:13:47

at the time yeah hul Fame so so so how

00:13:51

how did that series make you feel like

00:13:52

does it does it does it make you blood

00:13:53

boil now are you angry sort of like um

00:13:56

paints paints a very idelic you know

00:13:58

pleas pretty picture about what Glory of

00:14:00

is yeah it was it was pretty hard for me

00:14:03

to watch that at the time I was in there

00:14:05

when they filmed most of it and had left

00:14:07

by the time it came out um and a lot of

00:14:12

that filming is does have my sister and

00:14:14

who wedding as part of that documentary

00:14:17

as well um that came out after we left

00:14:20

and I guess while they were filming it

00:14:23

was a very uh tumultuous confusing time

00:14:27

for me and Elijah as well in there um he

00:14:31

had been kicked out um while they were

00:14:35

doing the filming and it it actually

00:14:37

directly related to a lot of what they

00:14:39

were trying to show um and so it felt

00:14:43

like a personal a personal hurt when I

00:14:46

watched it and they were showing oh you

00:14:48

know this is this um beautiful amazing

00:14:51

self-sufficient community and um behind

00:14:55

the scenes while they're filming that

00:14:56

very thing they were trying to destroy

00:14:59

my marriage and um my husband

00:15:02

yeah yeah yeah yeah we'll get to that

00:15:06

because um your husband Elijah I mean um

00:15:09

yeah I suppose this is one amazing thing

00:15:12

for you that's come out of Glory of like

00:15:13

you met this guy and he just seems like

00:15:16

just the best straightup dude imaginable

00:15:19

um and I I just can't imagine um yeah

00:15:22

the courage that it took for him to

00:15:24

confront the leaders because it sounds

00:15:26

yeah it sounds like a very intimidating

00:15:28

environment to to question anything so

00:15:30

for him to do that and then the

00:15:31

aftermath that happened yeah we we'll

00:15:33

get to that shortly but um just on Glory

00:15:35

of for a second so so when you're in

00:15:37

there um you you legit have no idea like

00:15:40

who Taylor Swift is and no no idea I

00:15:43

think we had I definitely didn't know

00:15:45

who Taylor Swift was I had heard of

00:15:47

Britney

00:15:48

Spears um so there's some funny way

00:15:52

stories they disconnect all the radios

00:15:54

out of the cars

00:15:56

but um I guess people people and boys

00:16:00

that had access to some things would go

00:16:02

and rehook them back up um and wire them

00:16:05

in and that sort of thing and listen to

00:16:07

the radio so and then record songs on

00:16:10

little cassette tapes and then we had

00:16:12

like a little black market of cassette

00:16:15

tapes yeah cassette tapes but we're only

00:16:16

talking like 10 years

00:16:18

ago we're kind of behind the rest of the

00:16:22

world does does it well does anyone have

00:16:24

an iPhone that they could do no now

00:16:26

there would be people with phones but

00:16:28

back when I left absolutely not no um

00:16:32

and still even your access within having

00:16:34

a phone is very limited like they

00:16:36

restrict all um Wi-Fi access so if I go

00:16:39

up there with my phone and go onto the

00:16:41

Wi-Fi I can't Google Taylor Swift I

00:16:44

can't Google even Kmart or Instagram

00:16:47

it's blocked all those websites are

00:16:49

blocked okay yeah so so when you're in

00:16:51

there as a as a as a woman in your late

00:16:54

tens early 20s are you are you familiar

00:16:56

with the word Google and no no

00:16:59

no definitely not but there must have

00:17:00

been things that you you knew though

00:17:02

because you you go for Town visits

00:17:04

occasionally um so you must be familiar

00:17:06

with um yeah I don't know the warehouse

00:17:09

McDonald's Subway yeah yeah you it's a

00:17:13

hard one to kind of understand I guess

00:17:15

before you even uh allowed out into the

00:17:18

world like for a dentist visit or

00:17:19

something like that you're already

00:17:21

prepped to believe that all these things

00:17:23

out here are bad and evil and aimed at

00:17:26

pulling you away from the truth and away

00:17:28

from God and taking you to hell and so

00:17:30

you kind of look at everything and

00:17:32

everybody with that lens sort of

00:17:34

distrust yeah immense distrust and

00:17:38

um everything is

00:17:40

worldly so inside glor Val anything that

00:17:43

is outside there is worldly and that

00:17:45

means that it is from the devil and it's

00:17:48

being used to take you effectively to

00:17:50

hell so um and even the warehouse like

00:17:53

we didn't shop at the warehouse for

00:17:55

years and years and years because they

00:17:57

sold the book book

00:17:59

um Phil's book so Phil is nille Cooper's

00:18:03

son and it's called sons of the father

00:18:05

and they refused to take it off their

00:18:07

shelves and so we nobody was allowed to

00:18:11

go to the warehouse um but even in going

00:18:14

to the warehouse like normally if you

00:18:16

went there it would be to buy like a 100

00:18:18

pair of shoes that were on sale it's not

00:18:20

like you went in there with your own

00:18:21

money and got what you wanted um

00:18:24

McDonald's didn't go to McDonald's

00:18:27

didn't go to KFC you don't have money to

00:18:29

spend at those places so when you're

00:18:30

going into the outside world you're

00:18:32

going with a group of people you go to

00:18:33

your appointment you get picked up and

00:18:35

then take them back so um yeah you see

00:18:38

things of the outside world I mean I

00:18:39

went to India while I was in there too

00:18:41

but yeah yeah yeah so so yeah so that's

00:18:44

one thing that from um escaping Utopia

00:18:46

so you you went to India so you're on

00:18:48

the plane for 15 hours whatever you you

00:18:51

must be watching movies on the back of

00:18:53

your seat or yeah yeah yeah was thaty

00:18:55

though yeah yeah we got told

00:18:59

um before we got on the plane that we

00:19:02

weren't allowed to start watching any

00:19:04

movies until the leader had checked that

00:19:06

was with us on the trip had checked what

00:19:09

there was on offer and then he would

00:19:10

come and tell us which ones we were

00:19:12

allowed to watch which did happen but

00:19:15

also when you when he's watching his and

00:19:18

you're like 10 rows up the plane and

00:19:21

nobody else is watching well you can

00:19:23

choose and you just have to be real

00:19:25

ready to quickly switch it off if they

00:19:28

come and to cheek on you yeah so so so

00:19:31

in a situation like that are you are you

00:19:33

scared you obviously there's the

00:19:34

immediate um fear of the leader that's

00:19:36

with you but are you also fearful of

00:19:38

like being punished by God and yeah I

00:19:41

think there's a bit of that that comes

00:19:42

into it and a lot of guilt while so you

00:19:45

might think oh I'm going to go I'm going

00:19:47

to watch this and then while you're

00:19:49

watching it guilt will just take over um

00:19:51

or maybe later you'll feel really guilty

00:19:53

about it and so you'll confess um you're

00:19:56

sitting there going oh my God I'm going

00:19:57

to go a hell forever C's retreat was

00:19:59

even not wasn't even even a good

00:20:02

movie yeah and I I think too then if

00:20:06

something else so say later on something

00:20:08

else went wrong in your life you would

00:20:10

think oh that's because I disobeyed and

00:20:12

I sinned and so you go back and confess

00:20:14

about this is what I did um yeah so

00:20:18

there's a lot of guilt around that sort

00:20:19

of thing besides the fact that you're

00:20:21

kind of on eggshells thinking I could

00:20:23

get caught at any minute

00:20:26

yeah oh God what a what a stressful way

00:20:28

your life but surely um your

00:20:30

interactions you have with people

00:20:32

outside even though you're wey of them

00:20:34

and you know they're Outsiders um so you

00:20:36

sitting next to someone on the plane you

00:20:37

have a nice conversation with them or

00:20:39

someone's nice to you in the the

00:20:40

warehouse when you're buying the

00:20:42

shoes Sur you start to question things

00:20:45

at that point like oh okay that person

00:20:48

seems like a good person you know what I

00:20:49

me yeah and I would say that's true

00:20:51

because people are definitely um really

00:20:55

polite and lovely and helpful and and we

00:20:58

were Tau to to be polite back but um if

00:21:01

they're not a Christian then their whole

00:21:05

motive we were taught was to influence

00:21:07

you to think they were good so that you

00:21:09

would follow them and then obviously the

00:21:12

result of that is that you were going to

00:21:13

hell um and so there was something else

00:21:15

we tau is that the devil will make you

00:21:18

feel good on the outside so that you

00:21:20

trust him so anybody that anybody that

00:21:23

does good things is in fact the devil

00:21:25

trying to influence you which is just so

00:21:29

messed up but it it kind of preps you to

00:21:32

be still thinking yeah they're being

00:21:34

nice to me yeah they're doing something

00:21:36

good but that's because the devil's

00:21:38

behind it yeah so what what's your

00:21:41

belief now do you think there's like a

00:21:43

an Afterlife with a heaven in a hell um

00:21:47

yes I think there's a heaven some might

00:21:49

say hell is listening to Britney Spears

00:21:50

on repeat over and over again I think I

00:21:52

think what I'm focused on is doing what

00:21:55

I believe is right and what um

00:21:59

and also now I believe that God is a

00:22:02

good father not a cruel judge and so um

00:22:06

yeah and I believe he cares about me has

00:22:09

my best interests at heart and um really

00:22:11

that's why I actually am here today

00:22:14

because if I didn't have my faith in God

00:22:16

I yeah I actually wouldn't physically be

00:22:21

here what do you mean you wouldn't

00:22:22

physically be here

00:22:27

um now we might get emotional I've got

00:22:30

I've got a box of tissues down okay um I

00:22:35

guess you're uh struggle a lot with um

00:22:39

depression and yeah taking my life at

00:22:42

one point was the only option out so

00:22:45

um

00:22:48

yeah how old were you

00:22:51

then

00:22:53

18

00:22:55

yeah oh mate that's terrible

00:23:00

and yeah I thought that would be the

00:23:01

better option than

00:23:05

leaving even though um by Glory of our

00:23:08

rules like taking your own life would be

00:23:10

a sin so you're going to hell for that

00:23:12

yeah but if you leave that's more sinful

00:23:15

so you'll get more punishment in

00:23:19

Hell how did you get through that

00:23:24

um just uh through just really talking

00:23:28

to God like all the time I just talked

00:23:31

to God and

00:23:33

um prayed that he would show that he

00:23:36

cared about me and um give me a way out

00:23:41

and give me some hope

00:23:43

yeah and did he I guess he did yeah it

00:23:47

wasn't like an overnight fix but um God

00:23:50

has really just given me um all little

00:23:54

things along the way and whether that's

00:23:56

say someone like my mom the next day

00:23:59

telling me that she loved me which I

00:24:01

hadn't heard her say since I was about 6

00:24:03

years

00:24:05

old

00:24:07

yeah so you're just looking for a

00:24:09

glimmer like a sign or something yeah

00:24:11

it's quite funny well it's not funny at

00:24:13

all actually but um there's are you

00:24:16

familiar with someone called sjn Kuan I

00:24:19

do know the name and I think he's a

00:24:21

rugby player am I correct or not yeah

00:24:23

yeah he's a famous all black but he's

00:24:25

become more famous as a mental health

00:24:26

Advocate right and he

00:24:28

when it's probably about the time you

00:24:30

were born actually in um the late 1980s

00:24:32

when he was at the peak of his old black

00:24:34

career he was in this hotel room in

00:24:36

Argentina with the All Blacks and um he

00:24:39

had a game I think he had a game before

00:24:41

the day before and the game was really

00:24:43

good but he thought he was going to be

00:24:44

dumped because it's just his mental

00:24:45

health was all over the place and the

00:24:47

balcony door was open and they were like

00:24:48

eight floors up or something and he was

00:24:50

like he had just this thought of like

00:24:52

just just running out and jumping out

00:24:53

the window and his um his teammate who

00:24:56

was on the next bed next to him Michael

00:24:58

Jones um who's a very religious man as

00:25:00

well just out of the blue he said you

00:25:03

know what JK you're a good man and um

00:25:06

and that was the sign that JK needed at

00:25:09

the time to sort of save his life yeah

00:25:11

yeah sounds like a similar thing to you

00:25:13

you're just looking for any sort of

00:25:14

glimmer of yeah yeah yeah and it was

00:25:16

just little things like that but it

00:25:18

really made a big impact and that's just

00:25:21

mom telling me that she loved me and I

00:25:22

felt like it was worth sticking around

00:25:24

for that what's your relationship like

00:25:26

with your with your mom now

00:25:29

um I'd say it's um is she still in there

00:25:33

she is still in there so it's strained

00:25:36

um and sometimes it can be really good

00:25:38

and other times not

00:25:41

um but yeah it's a tricky one to explain

00:25:45

um I love Mom hoaps and I think her and

00:25:48

Dad have done the best with what they

00:25:50

knew and the tools they had um within

00:25:53

that environment to raise all of us um

00:25:56

and I really respect her

00:25:58

and and I love her for that but um I

00:26:03

guess it will probably never be a really

00:26:05

close relationship

00:26:08

yeah you don't seem to have like a chip

00:26:10

on your shoulder at all or anything like

00:26:13

yeah I don't know I'm probably

00:26:14

projecting here but I feel like if it

00:26:15

was me I'd probably be kind of resentful

00:26:17

like you know in a way almost like if

00:26:19

you like it's like if you know it's like

00:26:22

quarter of your life if you liveed to

00:26:24

100 that that you spent in this

00:26:25

environment and it was like their

00:26:26

decision I think

00:26:29

I think there's probably a few reasons

00:26:30

for that and there's definitely been

00:26:31

times where that that feeling has come

00:26:34

and I've been and probably not so much

00:26:36

against mom and dad but maybe against

00:26:38

more um leaders or people that were very

00:26:41

abusive to me um and where there'll be

00:26:44

times where I feel angry um but anger

00:26:47

doesn't really do a lot for fixing the

00:26:51

situation um but also yeah I just think

00:26:55

that I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't

00:26:58

for the life I've lived and I don't want

00:27:00

that life for my children but I'm still

00:27:03

grateful to my parents for for what

00:27:06

they've done for me yeah do you think

00:27:08

this this positivity that you've got and

00:27:10

this attitude do you think part of that

00:27:11

comes from your faith probably yeah yeah

00:27:14

definitely yeah and why um um I was

00:27:18

going to ask about your name like and

00:27:20

this may seem like a really weird

00:27:21

question because obviously you know you

00:27:22

leave when you're 27 and so so Rosie

00:27:25

Overcomer is your name and it's all

00:27:26

you've ever known but it is also your

00:27:29

glory of Val name and if you if you went

00:27:30

back through family records or family

00:27:33

trees or I don't know ancestry.com

00:27:35

whatever you could find out what is your

00:27:37

actual family name do you know um I do I

00:27:40

do know so overcome is my married name

00:27:43

um and before I was Overcomer I had a

00:27:47

maiden name so my family glor maiden

00:27:49

name was hope and before that it was

00:27:52

steadfast and my dad's name is Marcus

00:27:55

bolliger so it would have been bolliger

00:27:58

right um but all those name changes are

00:28:00

legal name changes so when I fill in

00:28:03

forms and I have to write my maiden name

00:28:05

there's a few to

00:28:09

write God oh my God that put put you off

00:28:12

traveling a oh it's too hard with all

00:28:14

the forms yeah oh my God yeah I noticed

00:28:17

um something I spotted in the background

00:28:18

of um escaping Utopia and your family

00:28:22

home now you've got like some wall art

00:28:23

and it's um it's like Overcomer the name

00:28:27

and what each word means do you know

00:28:28

what it is off the top of your head no I

00:28:31

don't actually cuz my husband did

00:28:33

it um it's really cool though it's good

00:28:36

one actually I think I've got a photo of

00:28:37

it so throws my phone back I can um have

00:28:40

a look but yeah it is really good and I

00:28:43

don't know what off the top of my head

00:28:45

but um I think the name Overcomer has

00:28:49

become I guess really significant to us

00:28:51

as well and it's who we are now cuz we

00:28:54

have overcome a lot and and also

00:28:58

everybody knows Us by their name um so

00:29:01

it's yeah it would be hard to change it

00:29:04

so if we changed it now to my husband's

00:29:07

family name is b boom so it be there and

00:29:10

I I don't know I think overcoming

00:29:12

Probably sounds bitter bter than what

00:29:14

what is it bbom ball spoon bbom bbom

00:29:19

yeah right that's a Dutch name overcome

00:29:21

is easy isn't it let's stick with it um

00:29:24

a couple of light-hearted ones um like

00:29:27

what what are the coolest things you

00:29:28

found when you when you first left I'm

00:29:29

thinking like TV shows mu music gadgets

00:29:33

fashion fast I Noti you got a nose

00:29:34

piercing I have got nose I've got like

00:29:38

few of my ears too which is which is not

00:29:41

okay so

00:29:43

so so so so you leave glor of Valen I'm

00:29:46

sure there's a a massive amount of um

00:29:49

like guilt and shame at that point and

00:29:50

confusion and um just a whole range of

00:29:53

emotions but then you sort of settle

00:29:54

into the groove of um being an outsider

00:29:57

then what what were some of the big

00:29:58

surprises like what became early

00:30:00

addictions like gry's Anatomy or

00:30:02

something or no no I've only kind of

00:30:05

just heard of that one no it's been a

00:30:07

while um I think it actually probably

00:30:10

took me about a year to really start

00:30:13

kind of embracing or leaning into

00:30:15

leaning into it yeah cuz that first year

00:30:17

was I mean I was a mom I had three very

00:30:21

young children I had fourth on the way

00:30:23

um that fourth was born within the first

00:30:25

year and so that's you know there was a

00:30:29

lot to kind of deal with just learning

00:30:31

how to actually care for them um so

00:30:35

Bening watching Netflix shows was the

00:30:37

last thing on your mind yeah no I didn't

00:30:39

do that but I actually the first thing

00:30:41

that I loved that I really thought oh

00:30:45

this is good is I got a haircut um and

00:30:48

that was a friend organized that for me

00:30:50

for my 28th birthday and um the first

00:30:53

time I'd ever celebrated a birthday was

00:30:55

my 28th birthday and I can remember

00:30:57

walking to down the street and just like

00:30:59

going oh I feel free cuz I'd cut like

00:31:04

this much hair off um

00:31:07

and yeah that that was I don't know I

00:31:11

felt really significant to me as well

00:31:13

too because it was a direct Rebellion to

00:31:18

um being in glory Val where women

00:31:20

weren't allowed to cut their hair and I

00:31:23

had done that and it was kind of like I

00:31:24

had U made a stand with a than myself of

00:31:29

that that was not something I believed

00:31:32

in anymore yeah I bet you 30 million

00:31:33

bucks as well yeah I did I I can

00:31:35

remember walking down the street still I

00:31:37

can still remember the feeling I'm

00:31:38

feeling like I was shaking my head like

00:31:40

just feeling so light um and another

00:31:44

really significant moment for me was the

00:31:45

first time I put on jeans and it would

00:31:48

have been well after a year after we

00:31:50

left um what did you wear for the first

00:31:52

year just skirts long skirts yeah and

00:31:55

then I kind of graduated to KNE length

00:31:57

skirt but I felt like everybody knew

00:32:00

every regular person that saw me knew

00:32:04

that I wasn't dressed how I should be um

00:32:06

and that I think too is because you've

00:32:07

grown up with this very judgmental

00:32:09

mindset where everybody like your

00:32:11

outward appearance is everything and um

00:32:14

so I just felt like that's what

00:32:16

everybody was doing judging me and they

00:32:18

knew that I wasn't wearing what I should

00:32:20

be wearing as well as I was just

00:32:22

terrified of being spotted by someone

00:32:24

from glor

00:32:25

Val we why just for the judgement

00:32:28

yeah for the Judgment for what they

00:32:30

would um I guess say about me think

00:32:32

about me um which seems silly now but um

00:32:36

it just felt very real at the time and

00:32:39

then when we left lots of people donated

00:32:42

clothes and that sort of thing and there

00:32:43

were jeans in there and I knew I didn't

00:32:46

believe that it was wrong for women to

00:32:48

wear jeans but I thought that I couldn't

00:32:50

so I'd kept a couple of here and I'd

00:32:51

actually said to Elijah a few times can

00:32:53

you tell me to wear the jeans

00:32:58

and he was like no like you wear them if

00:33:01

you want I'm not telling you what to do

00:33:03

like you if you want to wear them wear

00:33:05

them if you don't don't like honestly

00:33:08

it's not up to me what you wear it's up

00:33:10

to you and I'm not telling you what to

00:33:12

do so I'm really grateful to them for

00:33:13

that but at the time I was like well if

00:33:15

you just tell me then I can do it um and

00:33:19

would have been yeah over a year later

00:33:22

after we left and um I was actually

00:33:24

helping him on the farm and I went over

00:33:27

climbed over an electric fence and got

00:33:29

this massive shock because my skirt got

00:33:32

hooked on the fence and I just thought

00:33:34

this is stupid so I went home put the

00:33:36

jeans on and I was like oh I'm still me

00:33:41

like the jeans haven't changed who I am

00:33:43

and that was a really I guess another

00:33:47

kind of significant moment for me to

00:33:48

realize that it wasn't the clothes who

00:33:50

made me who I was yeah wow yeah maybe

00:33:54

the electric shock was a son from God

00:33:56

come on put the on I'm not worried yeah

00:34:00

exactly yeah um what what about music

00:34:03

and stuff that you leaned into what what

00:34:05

did you what did you anything that you

00:34:06

sort of gravitated towards what did you

00:34:08

have inside was it just sort of worship

00:34:10

music yeah mostly worship classical a

00:34:12

lot of we were allowed to listen to

00:34:13

classical music and we played a lot of

00:34:15

um classical stuff but like because we

00:34:18

all learned an instrument or multiple

00:34:20

instruments um what music did I lean

00:34:24

into Cold

00:34:26

Play you you know me better than me Theo

00:34:29

yes Coldplay yeah um love

00:34:31

Coldplay um going to the concert at the

00:34:34

end of this year yeah oh so am I I

00:34:37

missed the concert last time around and

00:34:39

I thought I I don't want to end up with

00:34:40

fomo again so I bought them bloody

00:34:43

expensive though aren't they yeah but

00:34:46

yeah no I don't I didn't really get into

00:34:47

music for a long time um Elijah's into

00:34:50

music big time and he was one of the

00:34:51

ones that was hooking up the radio and

00:34:53

um recording music to pass around so he

00:34:56

he already had a bit of a he knew what

00:34:58

he liked um but I do remember thinking

00:35:01

for a long time that you couldn't listen

00:35:02

to anything with a heavy beat um or like

00:35:05

rock Musical that sort of thing because

00:35:07

that was quite sinful so I took a while

00:35:09

to get into that yeah is Cold Play going

00:35:13

to be first concert no it was going to

00:35:16

be until um pink came to denan and

00:35:19

somebody had a ticket to sell a week

00:35:21

before and asked me if I want to go so

00:35:22

I've been to Pink yeah oh just recently

00:35:24

yeah just recently that was my first

00:35:25

ever concert yeah how was that was that

00:35:27

we no I loved it yeah it was amazing it

00:35:30

absolutely incredible uh phenomenal

00:35:33

phenomenal and I was like what have I

00:35:34

been missing out on yeah so I mean it's

00:35:38

it's been a it's been a long time since

00:35:39

you've been out it's been like at this

00:35:41

point 10 years 11 years or whatever do

00:35:42

you do you feel like pangs of guilt when

00:35:44

you're there or anything or no not at

00:35:46

all um when I'm at when you no when

00:35:50

you're when you're going to the Pink

00:35:51

concert or when you're in the Pink

00:35:52

concert with all these other Outsiders

00:35:54

no I think it's not lost on me that

00:35:58

my life is so different now to what I

00:36:00

could have ever imagined and that's

00:36:02

probably more what it is it's like I

00:36:04

think oh um I could never have imagined

00:36:07

myself living this life or going to a

00:36:09

pink concert I still have values and I

00:36:12

still live my life aligned to those

00:36:14

values um and I still have a faith in

00:36:16

God and so that's important to me but

00:36:19

that's based on my relationship with God

00:36:22

not on what anybody else sees is okay or

00:36:24

not okay and so I don't have any guilt

00:36:26

about what I to do yeah yeah I love that

00:36:31

so much yeah I I had um a very um very

00:36:35

strict Catholic upbringing um I mean

00:36:38

obviously a lot Freer than your it's

00:36:39

nothing like being in um being in a cult

00:36:41

like glor ofil but um yeah God God to us

00:36:44

was a Punisher like every every time we

00:36:48

did something wrong mom was like God's

00:36:49

going to punish you God's so say God to

00:36:52

us seem like a bully rather than a nice

00:36:53

person and then um I i' I'd consider

00:36:56

myself to be an atheist now because I

00:36:58

realized As I Grew Older um you can be a

00:37:00

good person and not have any religious

00:37:02

belief or you can be you can be a

00:37:04

complete dick and be very very religious

00:37:06

oh I fully agree with you I do fully

00:37:08

agree with you but you can be a good

00:37:09

person and be a Christian too which is

00:37:11

something F out since abolutely yeah

00:37:14

yeah absolutely um anything you miss

00:37:16

about Glory Val apart from family and

00:37:18

friends um prob probably just the

00:37:21

ability to um s say something needs

00:37:24

doing the ability to have this big

00:37:27

Collective of walking working towards

00:37:29

the same goal and really be able to

00:37:31

achieve something quite significant in a

00:37:33

short amount of time um yeah like I

00:37:36

guess that that comes from nobody

00:37:38

actually having a job I'd do that in

00:37:43

inverted um and so when something needs

00:37:45

to happen in a hurry everybody is just

00:37:47

called and you can really make stuff

00:37:50

happen um but which is quite cool to be

00:37:52

part of something like that um but I I

00:37:56

can't say I particularly Miss but that

00:37:59

yeah when we did things like that I

00:38:00

thought oh yeah it was fun it was great

00:38:03

yeah yeah so back to the um the the eoms

00:38:06

thing with the the job um has has that

00:38:08

changed now like it's it's gone through

00:38:10

an employment court and stuff so are

00:38:12

people in glor Veil getting paid now for

00:38:14

the work they do or no no no no right

00:38:18

but it went through Court did nothing

00:38:19

change from that well they're still

00:38:21

working on that but um I think what's

00:38:23

important is that to know is gloral is

00:38:26

absolute professionals at

00:38:29

Optics so they will say all the right

00:38:32

things um perform make it look like

00:38:35

they're doing the right things behind

00:38:37

closed doors they will say nothing

00:38:39

changes this is what we

00:38:41

believe but things have changed in

00:38:44

little increments um and I think that

00:38:46

has come from the court cases and the

00:38:48

outside pressure where if that backed

00:38:50

off they would revert back to their old

00:38:52

ways so they do pay they pay the men but

00:38:57

then

00:38:58

the men are they have to gift it back so

00:39:02

they're so used to being manipulated

00:39:04

told what to do they think they're doing

00:39:06

this for God that they're still

00:39:08

effectively not being paid for their

00:39:11

work and being paid the absolute be a

00:39:13

minimum too so um so then they just

00:39:16

start recording all the hours as

00:39:18

volunteer hours rather than as um work

00:39:21

hours so they can pay them

00:39:23

less right okay so it's kind of a

00:39:25

twisted loophole sort of it is yeah and

00:39:27

I suppose their argument is what do you

00:39:29

need money for everything you need is

00:39:31

provided yes everything you need is

00:39:32

provided and you need to give your money

00:39:34

back to the Lord's work and yeah selfish

00:39:37

if you keep it yeah gez it would have

00:39:39

been nice when you when you when you

00:39:41

left if you got given like a lump sum of

00:39:43

money for the work You' done though even

00:39:44

if it was you know below minimum wage

00:39:47

yeah it would have been something to set

00:39:49

you up we did get given $1,000 the day

00:39:51

we left um got enough to buy two tickets

00:39:54

to cold playay yeah it's good day

00:39:57

us it like that then though um yeah and

00:40:00

I mean they made us sign to say that we

00:40:03

had received a gift of $1,000 and that

00:40:05

it was full recompense for any work that

00:40:07

I had ever done in my life there um

00:40:10

which I shouldn't have signed in

00:40:11

hindsight but I guess that stage you

00:40:13

just wanted out I yeah I was I just

00:40:15

wanted out I'd already had six hours of

00:40:17

people just um yeah really going hard in

00:40:22

like tear and juicing kind of attacks

00:40:25

verbal attacks and so I just wanted out

00:40:28

so yeah signed it yeah 6 hours so that's

00:40:32

the leadership group having a having a

00:40:34

go initially the the leadership how many

00:40:36

how many people uh there's 12 of them

00:40:39

right okay so so you're a you're a young

00:40:41

M of three and your mid 20s and you got

00:40:43

12 Grand men just what like like raising

00:40:46

their voices or oh yeah absolutely yeah

00:40:49

yeah um and that was in a meeting with

00:40:52

both Elijah and I on that last day and

00:40:54

then when they kind of realized they

00:40:56

weren't getting anywhere with us um they

00:40:58

threw up their hands and left the room

00:41:00

and then they sent all my friends my

00:41:04

siblings parents um one after the other

00:41:08

to talk to me so that yeah one would

00:41:11

come tell me how wrong I was losing my

00:41:15

faith giving up um how could I do this

00:41:17

to my kids how could I take them to how

00:41:19

and then when they weren't getting where

00:41:21

that' go the next one would come and

00:41:22

that went on yeah for six hours

00:41:29

yeah why why didn't you just say I'm

00:41:32

thinking if I was in your position and I

00:41:33

had like 12 people you know that i' I'd

00:41:36

grown up as my sort of bosses or leaders

00:41:38

or whatever you want to call them my

00:41:39

entire life I'd probably just end up

00:41:42

caving and staying like where did that

00:41:44

strength come from for you guys to stick

00:41:45

to your guns dig your heels and then go

00:41:48

well I had already I had already given

00:41:49

in multiple times before that day um

00:41:52

there had been other meetings there had

00:41:54

been meetings I'd been in alone with out

00:41:57

Elijah um and just the men and I had

00:42:01

given in in those meetings um and there'

00:42:04

been one where I was with Elijah and I

00:42:07

had given in that one and I think by

00:42:09

this point I had really made the

00:42:11

decision myself that

00:42:15

um one the place wasn't safe for my kids

00:42:19

which is what really led me on the

00:42:21

Journey of leaving in the first place

00:42:24

but the main thing was seeing that the

00:42:27

leaders were so happy to lie to cover

00:42:31

themselves and seeing that just in black

00:42:34

and white over and over again over a

00:42:36

period of months um that they were very

00:42:40

happy to destroy a marriage um to

00:42:42

destroy a person and to make themselves

00:42:46

look good throughout the process that I

00:42:49

just I knew that that wasn't Godly and

00:42:53

that they were using God and even like

00:42:56

slandering who God is um to make

00:42:59

themselves into gods and um I I could

00:43:03

just see it really clearly by this point

00:43:05

and so I knew that that's not who I

00:43:07

wanted to follow anymore yeah oh they

00:43:09

just shown their true colors over yeah

00:43:12

yeah okay let's talk about Elijah um I

00:43:14

feel like we've talked about him a lot

00:43:16

but um yeah watching escaping Utopia

00:43:20

just the relationship that you guys have

00:43:22

and the kind of man he is um it's it's

00:43:24

an incredible relationship you guys have

00:43:26

got so guessing if you to list all the

00:43:29

positives from Glory Val he'd be top of

00:43:30

the list yeah um what else so there's

00:43:33

getting things done like you said before

00:43:35

yeah anything else um I mean I'm pretty

00:43:37

grateful for the skills I've learned

00:43:39

like sewing making cheese I don't make

00:43:43

chees but but um I don't know it's real

00:43:46

Handy knowing how to um fix mend clothes

00:43:49

and that sort of thing and I and I

00:43:50

actually love making stuff um and then

00:43:55

yeah just general skills

00:43:57

I can I can make bread I can make I can

00:43:59

make yogurt I can I can do a lot of

00:44:02

those things and they're really easy and

00:44:04

simple to me like I don't have to think

00:44:05

about it whereas I know like other Ms

00:44:08

and other people out here you know

00:44:10

that's kind of a big deal to them to

00:44:12

start something like that like I can

00:44:13

preserve we get a whole lot of apples I

00:44:15

know how to preserve them um so yeah

00:44:18

skills like that I am grateful for

00:44:19

skills yeah yeah they are you I suppose

00:44:21

Elijah's got the the men's life skills

00:44:24

yeah like he knows how to connect a car

00:44:26

radio

00:44:29

okay so um yes so so when did so you

00:44:32

were a few years older than him y so

00:44:36

according to um escaping Utopia you at

00:44:38

the age to get married so you you were

00:44:40

quite late though right like 20 21 22 2

00:44:43

why so old um oh because they were

00:44:46

saving me for Elijah now I'm just joking

00:44:48

that I don't like maybe right so they

00:44:51

just decided like in New early 26 ready

00:44:53

for marriage and there were two guys who

00:44:54

is the what what was the story of the

00:44:56

other guy yeah do and do you regret

00:44:58

saying this oh no no there's two two

00:45:01

guys that were deemed um suitable

00:45:03

candidates there's Elijah yeah um

00:45:05

there's another guy that gave you the

00:45:06

ick oh the BG

00:45:07

[Laughter]

00:45:09

I um what was what was

00:45:13

um you were real vocal about this and I

00:45:16

thought I wonder if still does sometimes

00:45:19

sometimes on this podcast I I'll say

00:45:20

things or and I end up with like a

00:45:22

vulnerability hangover or an honesty

00:45:24

hangover and I when I watched that I

00:45:25

thought I wonder if she like regret

00:45:27

saying that but no no I don't regret

00:45:29

saying it why what what was ay about the

00:45:31

other guy

00:45:33

everything okay right so so so it was

00:45:36

Elijah what was um when did you first

00:45:38

know to H like did you guys sort of grow

00:45:39

up together oh we grew up together yeah

00:45:41

I was really good friends actually with

00:45:43

uh his older sister and so when um like

00:45:48

early days when we lived at Spring Bank

00:45:49

before the community was all shifted

00:45:51

over to glor Val um we lived in the same

00:45:55

building called The Big House family and

00:45:57

his family and some other families as

00:45:59

well and so I spent a lot of time with

00:46:02

their family just yeah I mean I could

00:46:05

have almost thought that they were my

00:46:06

siblings or my cousins just the way we

00:46:08

grew up um and then I mean I didn't

00:46:13

think of him like that until I was

00:46:14

probably around 20 um

00:46:18

like think that I could you know

00:46:20

potentially marry him or liked him but

00:46:22

um yeah before that I just got on really

00:46:25

well with their family and um spend a

00:46:28

lot of time with them yeah and then um

00:46:32

yeah in escaping Utopia we can see some

00:46:34

footage of your your wedding um how do

00:46:36

you how do you feel when you see that

00:46:38

now I don't really like to watch it yeah

00:46:42

yeah yeah that you know you're saying

00:46:43

before about the vulner vulnerabil

00:46:46

vulnerability I can't even talk here

00:46:48

that one um that's probably something

00:46:51

that I have a little bit of a like oh

00:46:52

should I put that out there um why why

00:46:55

is that

00:46:58

because it's embarrassing about all the

00:46:59

stuff about the Seal of a woman or yeah

00:47:01

I think so yeah and it just yeah yeah

00:47:04

that's that's kind of ay that's yeah it

00:47:06

is very yeah but then I mean I know why

00:47:10

we allowed it to be put out there

00:47:12

because it's an important part of um

00:47:15

showing the truth of the place but yeah

00:47:17

I mean I yeah it's not something that I

00:47:20

like I just sit down and like ah I want

00:47:22

to relax I'm G to pop our wedding video

00:47:25

on so at at the at the time when you're

00:47:28

getting married and you're in glor of

00:47:29

valy and that that speech is going on

00:47:31

about you know God's special gift for

00:47:33

man as the Seal of a woman but it's

00:47:34

talking about the hman right is that

00:47:36

what it's yeah yeah yeah are you

00:47:37

embarrassed at the time oh absolutely

00:47:39

yeah don't was she weren't there was she

00:47:41

could hide under a rock yeah absolutely

00:47:45

and then and then you go away to

00:47:46

consumate your wedding and everyone

00:47:47

knows yeah everyone knows that's what

00:47:49

you've gone yeah yeah yes and then when

00:47:51

you come back he run like cheers you

00:47:53

collaps

00:47:55

and have you you guys um yeah it's

00:47:58

that's that's embarrassing oh yeah I

00:48:00

mean it's very private and personal yeah

00:48:02

I mean that's probably the the biggest

00:48:05

regret I have is that we had a wedding

00:48:06

in there not that we married obviously

00:48:10

but I just wish that the wedding day

00:48:12

what wasn't what it was but can't can't

00:48:15

go back and change it now will you do

00:48:17

you think you'll have a like a renewal

00:48:18

one day potentially yeah I think that'd

00:48:20

be really cool Elijah's really up for

00:48:22

parties so if I if I sell it to as a big

00:48:25

party yeah

00:48:27

right so so so you guys are together in

00:48:29

there and you both from what I can

00:48:32

gather um you both seem like Square pigs

00:48:34

and round holes and that you're both

00:48:36

sort of disruptors and um I don't know

00:48:39

but I suppose by glor state is like

00:48:41

troublemakers but you know yeah so what

00:48:43

sort of conversations are you guys

00:48:44

having in private um I'll just I think I

00:48:48

should mention that I actually grew up a

00:48:50

really good glory of Val girl like I

00:48:52

didn't want to be a disruptor I didn't

00:48:54

want to be noticed I wanted to do all

00:48:56

the right things things and that was

00:48:58

primarily because my family was low in

00:49:00

the hierarchy scale and so was Elijah's

00:49:03

and so we both

00:49:05

um we both were quite intentional about

00:49:08

being good people within the community

00:49:10

even though Elijah collected car

00:49:11

connected car radios um he got away with

00:49:14

a little bit more than I did but um I

00:49:17

think

00:49:18

um what happened was when we got married

00:49:22

we both were trustworthy to each other

00:49:26

and you are encouraged um and taught and

00:49:30

um made to actually report on each other

00:49:33

but we didn't do that and so we had a

00:49:37

relationship where we could talk to each

00:49:39

other and share our um and the most yeah

00:49:43

fears concerns and things that were

00:49:45

worrying to us and so that gave us a

00:49:47

security with each other and and even

00:49:50

the ability to have those conversations

00:49:52

whereas beforehand everything that I had

00:49:54

concerns about I thought it was only me

00:49:57

and I thought there was something wrong

00:49:58

with me and if I said something I would

00:50:01

have been the one in trouble so um you

00:50:03

keep all that to yourself but um between

00:50:06

the both of us we um we a safe place for

00:50:09

each other so

00:50:12

yeah W this is this is so much to take

00:50:15

in like it's fascinating and it's

00:50:17

intriguing but it's so much so there's a

00:50:19

lot of married couples there where if if

00:50:20

someone says to their husband or wife uh

00:50:24

this doesn't seem right the other person

00:50:26

will like shut down or report on them

00:50:28

both yeah shut it down and report on

00:50:29

them yeah so there's kind of no place

00:50:32

for a meaningful and a real relationship

00:50:35

within that environment even between

00:50:38

friends um or siblings parents yeah

00:50:43

they've taken that all

00:50:44

away so you just can't trust anyone no

00:50:47

you

00:50:48

can't so um take us back to that period

00:50:52

cuz I'm guessing it wasn't a day or a

00:50:53

moment but that period where everything

00:50:55

imp imploded and Elijah approached

00:50:58

hopeful so hopeful is like the boss the

00:51:00

big boss yeah yeah yeah he's the big

00:51:02

boss so you guys must you guys talked

00:51:04

about that for what days weeks months

00:51:07

months months before um and we actually

00:51:11

uh yeah probably even nearly a year

00:51:13

before we had been um having discussions

00:51:16

like this um and then so over time we

00:51:19

had compiled just we had questions and

00:51:22

so we compiled them into a list and we

00:51:24

spent the week before approached hopeful

00:51:28

um not eating so we 4 days before we

00:51:32

fasted and prayed um and that was

00:51:35

because well we wanted to make sure that

00:51:40

we weren't just being kind of cocky

00:51:42

young people that thought they knew

00:51:44

everything um and we really wanted to

00:51:48

understand even ourselves why we had the

00:51:51

questions and really focus on that so we

00:51:53

decided not to eat for a few days um and

00:51:56

then we actually both went together to

00:51:59

Hopeful and told him we had some

00:52:00

questions and he told me I needed to

00:52:03

leave cuz I was a woman and I had no

00:52:05

right to ask him questions um and he

00:52:09

took Elijah off in the car

00:52:13

and um I think it was around like maybe

00:52:17

3:00 in the afternoon because I know I

00:52:19

went and picked up the kids shortly

00:52:20

afterwards from uh

00:52:22

preschool and then Elijah didn't come

00:52:25

back for ages um probably was a couple

00:52:28

of hours later and he came to the room

00:52:30

and I said how did that go um and he

00:52:33

said oh well I guess you could say good

00:52:36

cuz hopeful didn't yell at me but he

00:52:38

also didn't say anything a lot and he

00:52:41

told me I was wrong a few times but he

00:52:43

didn't really say much um and then we

00:52:45

were kind of like oh where to from here

00:52:48

you know like like a stalemate yeah what

00:52:50

what do we do now and then while we were

00:52:53

having this conversation a leader came

00:52:55

to our room and told Elijah he had to

00:52:57

come to a meeting um and so he went to

00:53:01

this meeting and then I took the kids to

00:53:04

dinner so three kids under five yeah

00:53:08

three yeah yeah yeah yeah

00:53:10

um uh so you took them to dinner took

00:53:13

them to dinner and then came back put

00:53:15

them to bed um did all the normal like

00:53:19

helped with the dishes and that sort of

00:53:21

thing and then he still wasn't back um

00:53:24

and then it would have been like nearly

00:53:26

probably 10:00 and I I mean I was

00:53:29

concerned but then at the same time it

00:53:32

not entirely unusual for him to not come

00:53:34

home at that time cuz I thought maybe he

00:53:35

had gone out back out to the farm or

00:53:38

something like that you don't have

00:53:38

phones you don't have any means of

00:53:40

communication so it's yeah it wasn't

00:53:42

entirely unusual but I I was a little

00:53:44

bit you know wondering where he was um

00:53:48

and then two

00:53:49

leaders just kind of burst into my room

00:53:53

um and said you need to put

00:53:56

um a change of clothes and aijah

00:53:59

toothbrush in this bag he's

00:54:03

left and I can still remember that um I

00:54:07

guess I said to

00:54:09

them that can't be right he wouldn't

00:54:12

leave me and the kids here and they said

00:54:16

yeah he told us that he doesn't love you

00:54:19

he doesn't want to be married to you and

00:54:21

he has already left the

00:54:24

property um

00:54:28

yeah kind of that was that for me you

00:54:33

um you know that that's [ __ ] though

00:54:36

way I knew I knew that it was but here's

00:54:40

these men leaders that I have trusted

00:54:44

with my whole life my whole life and

00:54:48

thought that they were called of God

00:54:49

thought that they knew everything um and

00:54:52

so I guess I was just really confused

00:54:57

um and that

00:55:00

started uh I guess a roller coaster for

00:55:03

me where I didn't know this was

00:55:07

happening but

00:55:08

um I couldn't sleep I couldn't eat and I

00:55:13

couldn't think and I felt like I was a a

00:55:17

wooden block which I don't even know how

00:55:19

to describe it but it was like I wasn't

00:55:21

a human anymore I think I know what you

00:55:23

mean just like a like a living corpse in

00:55:25

a way yeah

00:55:30

yeah

00:55:32

sorry oh that's

00:55:35

terrible

00:55:37

um so then when do you hear from Elijah

00:55:41

um H how could how could he reach out to

00:55:43

you even if he wanted to do you have

00:55:45

access to a phone or no no I don't have

00:55:47

access to a phone I mean there are

00:55:49

phones in the host but to have any

00:55:51

access you have to ring through the main

00:55:54

office and then who was I going to ring

00:55:56

anyway um yeah and anyway I did I asked

00:56:01

the leaders if I could contact him some

00:56:04

way and they kept saying no um and then

00:56:09

they

00:56:09

sent um the woman whose

00:56:13

husbands had left to come and talk to me

00:56:17

um and so that went kind of it was a

00:56:21

whole day and the first one came and she

00:56:25

actually came into my room and I she

00:56:26

never knew that her husband had left cuz

00:56:28

he had come back um that was the first I

00:56:30

knew of it and she she came in and she

00:56:33

was like right let's go through the

00:56:35

drawers and the photo album and we're

00:56:37

going to get rid of all Elijah's clothes

00:56:39

and

00:56:40

photos and I I just said I said no and

00:56:44

she said but that's what you need to do

00:56:46

cuz you don't love him anymore he's gone

00:56:48

against the church and you don't love

00:56:49

him anymore and I can remember just

00:56:51

having this like but I do but I do love

00:56:53

him um and then

00:56:57

yeah the other two came and they both

00:56:59

spent a few hours with me telling me I

00:57:01

was doing the right thing staying there

00:57:02

and protecting the children from hell

00:57:04

and my husband was um a deceiver and the

00:57:08

devil had used him to try and convince

00:57:10

me to um go to the world and um and then

00:57:14

actually the last woman who talked to me

00:57:18

I had a reasonably good relationship

00:57:21

with already um and worked with her a

00:57:23

lot and I said to her near the end of

00:57:26

the conversation I said I just want to

00:57:27

know one thing can you answer this

00:57:30

question honestly for me and she said

00:57:33

yes and I said do you regret not leaving

00:57:36

with your

00:57:37

husband and she said every

00:57:42

day

00:57:45

um and I and when she left I remember

00:57:48

thinking I don't want to be

00:57:50

50 and regretting every day of my

00:57:54

life and so so then I went to the

00:57:57

leaders again and said I need to talk to

00:58:00

Elijah and can I ring

00:58:04

them

00:58:05

yeah so um yeah they decided that they

00:58:10

would take me to see him so all the

00:58:13

leaders and me and a van um and I didn't

00:58:17

know where we were going but when we got

00:58:20

there I knew they had lied to me because

00:58:23

it was just one of the farm houses that

00:58:25

was about 20 minutes minutes drive from

00:58:28

glory

00:58:29

veale and I remember walking in and

00:58:31

Elijah was surprised to see me and I

00:58:35

went straight and gave him a hug um and

00:58:38

we got pried apart by the leaders and

00:58:42

made sit on opposite sides of the room

00:58:46

um

00:58:48

and they just ran the whole

00:58:52

conversation and I didn't even get to

00:58:54

talk to them and they basically were

00:58:56

deciding whether he had repented or not

00:58:58

for asking questions and decided he

00:59:01

hadn't and so physically dragged me out

00:59:03

of there put me back in the van and we

00:59:06

went home and then physically dragged

00:59:08

you out of there so you didn't want to

00:59:10

no I didn't want to leave I wanted to

00:59:12

stay there and talk to

00:59:13

Elijah um I mean there's quite a few

00:59:17

that kind of went on for a while similar

00:59:20

situations um and then one of the times

00:59:23

he just he had enough and he biked up um

00:59:27

he started sneaking in at night he got

00:59:30

actually I told there this the other day

00:59:32

he got shot at one night um when he was

00:59:35

sneaking in um but we got to have a

00:59:37

couple of conversations and then I think

00:59:40

he realized that unless he apologized

00:59:43

that he wasn't going to get back with me

00:59:46

and the kids and I wasn't at the point

00:59:49

where I could say I can leave cuz I

00:59:52

still thought that I had to be in glor

00:59:54

to be saved um right okay so you you

00:59:58

weren't like emotionally quite ready to

00:59:59

leave no I wasn't yeah yeah um and they

01:00:03

did eventually let them back in what why

01:00:06

why weren't you emotionally ready to

01:00:07

leave then like after after after all

01:00:09

the lies and all the the [ __ ] and

01:00:11

the bullying and the yelling I think

01:00:14

it's cuz it's just so ingrained in you

01:00:16

that this is the place that God has put

01:00:19

you this is where you were born this is

01:00:21

where God wants you and this is the only

01:00:22

place you can live out your life to get

01:00:25

to heaven and it um and the leaders are

01:00:28

God's Advocates they are put in place by

01:00:31

God to lead you and guide you so you

01:00:33

have to listen to them and it's just so

01:00:35

deeply ingrained um as well as then I

01:00:38

have obviously my kids and I felt

01:00:40

responsible for them and I thought well

01:00:42

you know if I leave then I'm taking them

01:00:46

to hell as well so then there's that

01:00:48

kind of the mother maternal Instinct

01:00:50

that goes I need to protect them yeah so

01:00:53

you wonder if you're doing the right

01:00:54

thing for your kids and so that's why I

01:00:56

to like I was so confused because I knew

01:00:58

that I didn't want to raise them in

01:00:59

gloral but I didn't know that I could

01:01:01

raise them outside gloral and still

01:01:03

raise them as good human beings they had

01:01:06

the opportunity to get to heaven do you

01:01:08

know so um I wasn't there yet uh he came

01:01:13

back um someone very close to us asked

01:01:16

them to help them

01:01:19

leave and because they didn't want to

01:01:21

marry the person they had been told to

01:01:23

marry um and so Elijah helped them

01:01:28

leave

01:01:29

and then he that kind of came to light

01:01:33

to the leadership they found out that it

01:01:35

was him that had um helped and so he was

01:01:39

called into another meeting at that

01:01:41

point

01:01:43

um and we and then I was called in later

01:01:48

maybe a couple of hours later after he'd

01:01:49

already been in there and I can still

01:01:51

remember walking in and he was sitting

01:01:53

there with his arms folded with the

01:01:54

staunchest look on his face like not

01:01:57

being budged and um they were just and I

01:02:01

went straight and St beside me again

01:02:03

they got me and moved me and you know

01:02:05

you can't sit beside him he's a heathen

01:02:06

he's a heretic um and that meeting was

01:02:10

ugly that was uh a brutal and ugly

01:02:13

meeting where they were trying to force

01:02:14

him to fall on his knees and kiss

01:02:17

hopefuls feet and he wouldn't so they

01:02:19

physically left at him up cheer and all

01:02:22

and put him in a truck and drove him off

01:02:24

um

01:02:27

these stories are outrageous yeah

01:02:29

they're almost hard to believe

01:02:32

yeah it's absurd I mean and there's

01:02:35

there's even in telling you there's bits

01:02:37

that I'm missing that are similar the

01:02:41

same kind of thing same situation um

01:02:43

just repeats of that and you'd think you

01:02:46

know like and I even look back and I say

01:02:47

why did it take me so long

01:02:51

to understand that I could leave um but

01:02:54

yeah maybe I can get it though I

01:02:56

understand it if you're born in there

01:02:57

and it's all you know I can understand

01:02:59

also also just the fear of the unknown

01:03:01

you know there's um ironically there's a

01:03:04

saying which is probably not perfect for

01:03:06

this case but better the devil you

01:03:09

know which is exactly yeah anyway yeah

01:03:13

so when did the CU in um escaping Utopia

01:03:16

there's a scene in there where you're

01:03:17

talking about um you and Elijah and

01:03:19

getting out of there and you end up in a

01:03:21

small plane being taken somewhere you

01:03:23

get really emotional talking about this

01:03:25

was that around this time yeah it is so

01:03:28

this time that they physically put him

01:03:29

in the truck um I knew that they had

01:03:33

obviously kicked him out this is what

01:03:35

this is the terminology we used as

01:03:37

people got kicked out if they didn't um

01:03:40

submit to the leaders and um so again I

01:03:44

asked if I could talk to him and I they

01:03:46

said I could call him and fervent

01:03:48

steadfast U one of the leaders wrote um

01:03:52

down on a piece of paper what I could

01:03:53

say to him and he also pulled out my

01:03:57

marriage commitment which in there is a

01:03:59

paragraph saying how that if my husband

01:04:02

ever disagreed with the leaders that I

01:04:05

was not bound to be married to him

01:04:07

anymore like our marriage was ended um

01:04:10

and so he fervent rang

01:04:14

Elijah and I had all the leaders

01:04:16

standing around behind me I was sitting

01:04:17

at the office desk and the first thing I

01:04:20

said was to Elijah I love you and fent

01:04:23

just reached over and hung up the phone

01:04:25

um and then I got a big talking to her

01:04:28

about you know stick to the stick to the

01:04:30

script if you want to talk to him say

01:04:32

what's on there and that happened maybe

01:04:34

three or four times um and Elijah

01:04:37

actually said to me on the last phone

01:04:39

call he said the leaders are listening

01:04:41

aren't they and I said yes and he said

01:04:44

we'll meet at the River tomorrow at

01:04:46

2:00 um and so we hung up and so the

01:04:51

next day came and I went and asked Mom

01:04:56

if she could drive me down to the river

01:04:58

because I'd been putting the baby to bed

01:05:00

and I'd run late and didn't have time to

01:05:04

walk all the way down to the river which

01:05:06

was kilometers away um maybe five four

01:05:09

or 5Ks away um and so I asked Mom if she

01:05:13

could drive me down and I don't know if

01:05:15

she went and told the leaders or if she

01:05:17

just went to ask for a vehicle because

01:05:19

she didn't have access to a vehicle

01:05:20

anyway and she had to go and ask for a

01:05:22

key but um two leaders came back with

01:05:25

her

01:05:26

and said that they would drive me down

01:05:28

um and so I got in the car and when we

01:05:33

got to not the river to the dairy shed

01:05:36

they pulled in and there would have been

01:05:37

50 men and maybe 10 Vehicles all parked

01:05:40

around the dairy shed and standing

01:05:42

around

01:05:43

Elijah

01:05:45

um and so this conversation that we

01:05:47

thought we were going to actually get to

01:05:49

talk to each other didn't go well um and

01:05:54

there was uh a lot of violence and

01:05:57

involved in that physical violence

01:06:00

physical violence um and they tried to

01:06:04

run him over with a

01:06:09

car and then they took me away

01:06:12

again and they said that they would talk

01:06:14

to him hopeful said they talk to him and

01:06:17

that he and hopeful promised me that he

01:06:19

would bring Elijah back

01:06:21

up to me that afternoon

01:06:26

and

01:06:26

so I went back up and it was meant to be

01:06:29

a celebration night for hopeful and they

01:06:33

sit up a throne in the dining

01:06:37

hall oh they'd set up a throne in the

01:06:39

dining hall for hopeful and it was this

01:06:42

big um meant to be a celebration for our

01:06:45

leader and how good he was and amazing

01:06:48

and I was getting the kids ready for

01:06:50

dinner and then uh a woman and one of

01:06:53

the leaders came just bursting into my

01:06:56

room and said that I needed to hide the

01:06:59

kids and that's I can't even remember if

01:07:02

this is in the documentary um but yeah I

01:07:04

heard the kids and we were in the attic

01:07:07

for probably nearly an hour um and I

01:07:11

couldn't hear details of what was going

01:07:14

on outside I could just hear a lot of

01:07:17

commotion um and yelling and raised

01:07:20

voices and then hopeful came to the adct

01:07:24

and he said to me you need to come and

01:07:27

um talk to your husband he said he's

01:07:30

brought the police he's brought s he's

01:07:32

bought um TV Crews here and um you need

01:07:38

to go and tell him to leave and he's

01:07:40

gone mad um I don't know it was yeah and

01:07:44

oh he said sorry prior to the meeting

01:07:46

too he said that they had um caught him

01:07:49

an interfere with another woman in Dixon

01:07:52

Park like I mean all these things now

01:07:54

are just being trying to make him look

01:07:56

bad to me um

01:08:00

but yeah so I came down and this is a

01:08:03

big regret I have um I saw him I was

01:08:06

standing on the balcony and he was down

01:08:09

in the playground um and the whole like

01:08:14

everybody from the community was

01:08:16

surrounding the playground he was on top

01:08:19

of the

01:08:20

slide there were men up there with him

01:08:22

trying to pull him down covering his

01:08:24

face covering his mouth

01:08:26

um he was yelling he was wild and I've

01:08:30

never I'd never seen him like that

01:08:32

before and I thought I mean I remember

01:08:33

thinking oh he must have gone mad

01:08:37

um but yeah anyway and I told him he

01:08:40

needed to leave um and then pretty much

01:08:43

as soon as I said that I got hopeful tap

01:08:46

me on the shoulder and said come and hop

01:08:48

in the car and we'll just drive around

01:08:50

until it's calmed down and so I hopped

01:08:52

in the car and then he said now get in

01:08:54

the plane

01:08:56

we'll just fly around till it's calmed

01:08:57

down and that was me gone with the kids

01:09:00

for six

01:09:02

weeks yeah yeah what was what was the

01:09:04

motivation of that um did they think you

01:09:07

like you were potentially a bad apple

01:09:10

being in glory of veale or was it that

01:09:12

Elijah could find you there it was it

01:09:14

was to stop Elijah from having any

01:09:17

opportunity to talk to me so like a

01:09:20

hideout house for you yeah it was yeah

01:09:22

yeah

01:09:26

oh jeez this is it's a lot yeah how's

01:09:30

how's you I mean you I know you had some

01:09:32

mental health struggles over the years

01:09:34

you mentioned earlier that um there was

01:09:36

a time where you contemplated taking

01:09:37

your own life in there um how's your

01:09:39

mental health been since you left um you

01:09:42

good you got any PTSD or anything have

01:09:43

you had any counseling I've definitely

01:09:45

had counseling um yeah I haven't had

01:09:49

anything I guess diagnosed with ptcd I'd

01:09:53

say I definitely have it um just the

01:09:56

research I've done I've definitely

01:09:57

struggled with my mental health and had

01:09:59

some pretty low um periods but then um

01:10:03

good as well and I guess learned some

01:10:06

tools along the way and and through

01:10:08

therapy and um that sort of thing just

01:10:11

even understanding what of my beliefs

01:10:14

are lies and what's the truth has been a

01:10:16

really big um help to me uh

01:10:21

yeah what about the um what about the

01:10:23

kids the older kids how are they oh

01:10:25

they're good they're real good I think

01:10:28

what was great was that they were young

01:10:30

enough when we left to not be um too

01:10:33

detrimentally affected um even though my

01:10:37

three-year-old still knew um when we

01:10:40

left she would cry at night and say I

01:10:43

can't be in this house Mom you need to

01:10:44

take me back to gloral because God's not

01:10:46

here um and I'd never told her that but

01:10:49

that I think shows that how young that

01:10:52

is ingrained into them from

01:10:57

wow Jes Elijah right you guys are just

01:10:59

meant to be together yeah we are there

01:11:02

was no tearing you apart yeah they got

01:11:04

that arranged marriage

01:11:05

right how's how he's been through a lot

01:11:08

as well he's he's he's worn a lot of a

01:11:11

lot of this how's he is he good at

01:11:13

talking about things

01:11:15

or

01:11:17

um he is sometimes and he's been yeah he

01:11:21

he is yeah he's a very positive person

01:11:24

and he's is a very grateful person and

01:11:27

so he I guess that's how he um has coped

01:11:30

and carried on as he's always looking

01:11:33

forward he he doesn't like to look at

01:11:35

the past which um I guess could

01:11:38

sometimes um I can see why it's hard

01:11:40

affects him but but yeah we have we have

01:11:43

great conversations he has some really

01:11:45

good um mates and mentors and yeah um

01:11:50

yeah he's just he is a very positive

01:11:51

person extremely yeah yeah

01:11:57

yeah I'm sorry you went through all

01:11:59

this yeah it's not it's not your fault

01:12:02

you shouldn't be saying sorry I know no

01:12:04

but it's just it's heartbreaking can't

01:12:06

change it now but um yeah I guess that's

01:12:10

a a part of what fuels me to keep going

01:12:13

so that things changes changes for

01:12:15

people still in there yeah you regret

01:12:17

not getting out

01:12:18

sooner um I guess but I don't look back

01:12:22

and go um

01:12:25

oh I should have got out sooner because

01:12:27

then I'd be a hidden now it just it is

01:12:30

what it is and I can't change the past I

01:12:33

can only use that to make me a better

01:12:35

person now and so that's what I focus on

01:12:38

yeah there I mean obviously there's

01:12:40

there's age differences but are there

01:12:42

any other sort of noticeable differences

01:12:44

between the kids that were born in glory

01:12:46

Val and the kids that were born on the

01:12:48

outside world yeah we've definitely

01:12:49

parented differently have you um yeah

01:12:52

yeah and and we talk about that better

01:12:55

Fe bit and even just um noticing how say

01:13:00

our younger three are way more free

01:13:03

thinkers or like the older ones are

01:13:06

definitely have come a long way but when

01:13:08

they were little like what we restricted

01:13:10

them from doing and thinking um and then

01:13:13

seeing the young kids just flourish that

01:13:15

much younger and really just we're happy

01:13:18

to see who who they are what their

01:13:21

personalities are and not crush anything

01:13:23

whereas with the older ones we we were

01:13:26

Our intention was to break their will

01:13:28

for God so um that's what we were taught

01:13:32

and how we were taught to parent which

01:13:33

is just fully messed up but

01:13:37

um yeah we definitely parent differently

01:13:40

and and even I like look at the cids and

01:13:43

they would not survive in glory of H

01:13:45

they

01:13:46

like you can go from Glory of L to the

01:13:49

outside world you can't go the other way

01:13:50

around no my 9-year-old could be kicked

01:13:52

out like uh where's the McDonald's

01:13:54

around here yeah yeah can you remember

01:13:56

that the older kids when they had their

01:13:57

first happy meal and things oh yeah I

01:14:00

can yeah just over the moon and it's

01:14:03

good though because they they can be

01:14:06

really appreciative of stuff too and

01:14:08

especially now too because the older

01:14:09

ones can see the difference um and they

01:14:12

can see what we came from and and I mean

01:14:16

you know people out here sometimes say

01:14:17

oh we use the police to threaten our

01:14:19

kids you know like if they're being real

01:14:20

naughty we'll say I'll call the cops you

01:14:22

know and I'll just say I take you back

01:14:24

to glor

01:14:31

it's good that you can laugh about this

01:14:33

you get a great laugh by the way thanks

01:14:35

it's uh it's wicked in the best possible

01:14:38

way hey um I put on um my Instagram

01:14:40

story that that you're coming over and

01:14:43

there's a bunch of questions just random

01:14:45

questions um some of some of them quite

01:14:47

light some of them are quite serious um

01:14:49

oh a name that came up earlier actually

01:14:51

someone wanted to know what happened to

01:14:53

Dove love

01:14:55

uh well she is married to watchful

01:14:56

steadfast so she is now Dove steadfast

01:14:59

which just doesn't have quite the same

01:15:00

ring to it as Dove love how is she about

01:15:02

the same age as you or no no she's quite

01:15:04

a bit younger actually yeah um but yeah

01:15:07

she's still in there and married and I

01:15:09

think maybe got six kids yeah jeez she

01:15:13

she would have done well as an

01:15:14

influencer on the outside world she

01:15:15

could have made some good

01:15:17

money um H someone said no question I

01:15:20

just want to say I follow Rosanna on

01:15:22

Instagram and I think she's incredible

01:15:24

oh that's lovely thank you yeah you are

01:15:26

incredible an

01:15:28

Elijah are you proud of yourself you

01:15:30

feel proud of yourself or are you

01:15:31

because your religious belief you're not

01:15:32

allowed to sort of uh feel proud of

01:15:34

yourself I don't I don't think it's got

01:15:35

anything to do with religious belief

01:15:37

it's more that um I just feel like I've

01:15:41

done what needs to be done and I think

01:15:43

there's so much more to do and so I

01:15:45

think uh when people say you should be

01:15:48

proud of yourself I'm like oh I'm not

01:15:49

doing enough um so it's hard for me to I

01:15:51

guess accept that as a compliment just

01:15:54

because I feel like this so much more I

01:15:55

could be doing or should be doing um but

01:15:58

yeah I am like if I look back um and

01:16:01

even if I imagine myself as a

01:16:03

15-year-old girl she's proud of me yeah

01:16:08

um that's a cool thing to say so it's

01:16:11

really cool I'm really happy with the

01:16:13

decisions I've made yeah it's really

01:16:15

powerful yeah and um yeah another thing

01:16:18

that's probably with highlighting I feel

01:16:20

like it's easier I'm sure it's still

01:16:22

bloody difficult but it's easier to

01:16:24

leave leave leave Glory Val than what

01:16:26

it's ever been thanks to the work like

01:16:27

you guys what you guys are doing on that

01:16:28

trust you're involved with and um the

01:16:31

community support um obviously it was a

01:16:33

lot harder 11 years ago than what it is

01:16:35

now oh yeah like jumping off a jumping

01:16:37

off a cliff in the dark basically much

01:16:38

so yeah yeah so that's something to be

01:16:41

immensely proud of um thank you someone

01:16:44

on Instagram says um does she think

01:16:46

Glory of a should be closed

01:16:48

down that's a really tough question um

01:16:52

I'll say this I don't think it should

01:16:55

carry on how it is it's an unsafe

01:16:57

Community um closing it down overnight I

01:17:01

don't think's the answer either um you

01:17:05

think you've got 550 people there that

01:17:08

believe this is where they are supposed

01:17:11

to live how they're supposed to live how

01:17:13

they're going to get to heaven and if

01:17:14

that's taken away from them you just

01:17:16

look at the absolute Mental Health

01:17:18

crisis you've got

01:17:21

um and I don't think we set up or

01:17:23

prepared for that and I think it's a lot

01:17:25

more complex than maybe the general um

01:17:27

New Zealander understands and that is

01:17:30

because their everyday life is tied in

01:17:32

with their faith going to work in the

01:17:35

kitchen is spiritual and so their

01:17:38

eternity is based on how they're living

01:17:40

and working so it's a very complex

01:17:42

situation a lot needs to change and it

01:17:44

needs to change now but I don't think

01:17:47

just shutting it down overnight is the

01:17:50

the right answer

01:17:52

yeah anything on escaping Utopia that

01:17:54

they

01:17:55

missed oh they missed a lot but I think

01:17:58

the general picture they've put that

01:18:00

across amazingly um there's obviously

01:18:03

wee bits of people's stories which you

01:18:05

know did if you did a story on Theo that

01:18:08

would have taken up the whole

01:18:09

documentary you know her life and

01:18:11

getting to where she is same with me um

01:18:14

and Eli that would have taken the whole

01:18:16

documentary so they've done a really

01:18:18

good job of kind of showing um the

01:18:20

beginning to current times um in the

01:18:23

general picture but you know there's

01:18:24

obvious

01:18:25

bits that are missing yeah there timing

01:18:27

restraints I guess isn't there yeah um

01:18:30

at what age did Rosie first get the

01:18:31

feeling that something wasn't right I'd

01:18:34

say I knew from a

01:18:36

5-year-old I knew in my gut um really

01:18:39

that something wasn't right but I

01:18:41

thought it was me um and I'd say I knew

01:18:45

that right throughout my life there but

01:18:49

it wasn't until after I left that I

01:18:51

understood that I was right for feeling

01:18:54

that way

01:18:55

um yeah so so so as a 5-year-old do you

01:18:58

say anything to your parents and and

01:19:00

they they they tell you off for having

01:19:02

these thoughts or do you just keep the

01:19:03

thoughts to yourself or you keep your

01:19:04

thoughts to yourself because even at

01:19:06

that age if you say something you're the

01:19:08

bad one and you're in trouble um and and

01:19:11

getting labeled as a 5-year-old or even

01:19:14

you know as a 10-year-old whatever age

01:19:17

you are as someone that questions

01:19:19

Authority or someone that has if you're

01:19:22

a girl if you've been abused if that is

01:19:24

widely known your whole future is

01:19:27

destroyed within that community so it's

01:19:30

just not worth saying

01:19:32

anything in your mind

01:19:36

yeah oh that's terrible yeah so you're

01:19:39

the victim of abuse but yeah somehow

01:19:41

it's your fault oh it is your fault not

01:19:44

just somehow like within that

01:19:45

environment there's no question that

01:19:48

even you as a seven-year-old girl if

01:19:50

you've been abused it's your fault well

01:19:53

and that you you've done something to

01:19:54

provoke it or bring it on to your yeah

01:19:56

you you've done something to provoke it

01:19:58

you've put yourself in a position so

01:20:00

they used to say this thing all the time

01:20:02

you were in the wrong place at the wrong

01:20:03

time and if you'd been in the right

01:20:05

place doing the right thing at the right

01:20:06

time that wouldn't have happened to you

01:20:09

um but and you know we joked before

01:20:12

about ankles um ankles and elbows yeah

01:20:16

and I think like we can laugh about that

01:20:19

now but it was such a a serious thing

01:20:21

where they're creating a culture that

01:20:24

men and boys think that they can't help

01:20:26

themselves and if the girl's showing off

01:20:28

her ankles or elbows you know rolling up

01:20:31

her sleeves to wash the dishes that

01:20:33

she's tempting them and then it's her

01:20:35

fault if they take advantage of that so

01:20:39

it's really messed up morally in that

01:20:42

way um and leaves kind of no room for

01:20:45

the girl to be um treated then as a

01:20:49

victim that needs support she is the one

01:20:51

at fault yeah well I think maybe the

01:20:54

most alarming thing for me in the

01:20:57

escaping Utopia was um with u Theo who's

01:21:00

sitting here uh towards the end with the

01:21:03

the the Indian guy at the Indian branch

01:21:05

of Glory of veale um basically saying he

01:21:09

he was I don't don't think he knew he

01:21:10

was on camera right no he didn't but

01:21:12

he's basically saying that Indian men

01:21:14

can't help themselves and yeah which was

01:21:17

just alarming yeah it was alarming

01:21:19

terrifying

01:21:21

actually um how can we help and get more

01:21:24

people free you're a brave Woman by the

01:21:26

way thank you um how can we help I think

01:21:32

we

01:21:34

can't we can't forget um about them and

01:21:38

you know how we're saying it' be easy

01:21:39

for me to walk away that's not the

01:21:41

answer um if you have anything to do

01:21:43

with people that leave the best thing

01:21:46

you can do is be a good person be kind

01:21:50

um and show them that there is um true

01:21:55

unconditional love on the outside um

01:21:58

that is the most supportive way you can

01:22:00

be to an individual um obviously there's

01:22:03

other ways you can help and that is by

01:22:05

supporting the trust um and the Trust

01:22:07

website has multiple ways that that is

01:22:09

available to do things when that's

01:22:11

donating clothes if you have it or

01:22:13

donating money um every donation is

01:22:18

we're very grateful for and um that's

01:22:21

that's one way you can help so this is

01:22:23

the trust that you're involved with

01:22:24

you're you're the only former glory of

01:22:25

Our member Elijah and I both on trust

01:22:28

and we are the only former members on

01:22:30

there what's the what's the website uh

01:22:33

it is glor Val l.org maybe NZ okay

01:22:36

that's all right we can we can Google it

01:22:37

glor Val lever and um so the best thing

01:22:40

is mainly

01:22:42

money um not always like obviously when

01:22:46

someone leaves you kind of have those

01:22:47

immediately immediate physical needs you

01:22:50

know you've got to set up a house for

01:22:51

them we do always hold a um a storage

01:22:55

unit of furniture and house supplies um

01:23:00

we always have that ready to go that's

01:23:02

just purely from people's donations um

01:23:05

and then the other thing I guess down

01:23:08

the track that actually they need a lot

01:23:11

of help with what is um finding jobs you

01:23:15

know your CVS setting up bank accounts

01:23:17

and then counseling finding them um a

01:23:21

counselor um schools you know there's

01:23:24

kind of all these practical things that

01:23:27

then the long-term needs are actually

01:23:30

more um mental health and um and

01:23:33

spiritual needs yeah actually we they

01:23:36

sort of touch upon that in um escaping

01:23:38

Utopia is it Boaz yes Bo yeah you see

01:23:42

him and his um wife have recently um

01:23:45

left Glory Val she wasn't on

01:23:47

camera oh that's your sister yeah right

01:23:52

um and you can just see how much they're

01:23:53

struggling and how overwhelmed

01:23:55

I'm not surprised I really felt for them

01:23:56

it's like I find adting hard sometimes

01:23:58

and I've just grown up with this I just

01:24:00

can't imagine the enormity of um you

01:24:03

know just living in that sort of

01:24:04

environment where every minute of the

01:24:06

day is accounted for and you know what

01:24:08

you're doing and you know what your role

01:24:09

is to having having none of that yeah um

01:24:12

yeah and also not knowing how to do any

01:24:14

of that I think I think that's something

01:24:17

that people can really help with

01:24:18

especially if they know if there's

01:24:19

someone in the area that has left um is

01:24:23

actually just

01:24:25

approaching them and

01:24:26

being like someone that they can talk to

01:24:31

um a friend because again you've left

01:24:33

all your friends and family inside you

01:24:35

don't really know people on the outside

01:24:38

um and then just having the confidence

01:24:40

like for me to do my first grocery shop

01:24:43

and use my e postcard for the first time

01:24:46

and it was nerve-wracking and what do

01:24:48

you mean can you can you explain

01:24:50

that well you've never done anything

01:24:52

like that you didn't you don't have been

01:24:54

account well you do you just don't know

01:24:56

you do um and you've never had a phone

01:24:59

or an if postcard and just actually

01:25:01

going through even going through the

01:25:03

grocery store and thinking what do I buy

01:25:05

for my family because I've never shopped

01:25:08

for myself um or for my children um and

01:25:12

then getting to actually pay for it and

01:25:14

thinking oh you know there's so much to

01:25:16

remember do I swipe it how does this

01:25:18

work what's my pen what is a pen you

01:25:22

know just because you're learning so

01:25:24

much in a short amount of time um it's a

01:25:27

lot to deal with yeah so that my first

01:25:28

grocery shop I actually went with uh a

01:25:31

lady who had left before me and she

01:25:33

bought a few things and went in front of

01:25:35

me and um I just watched her and then I

01:25:38

did a few things and yeah she was there

01:25:40

to help me if I needed it had you been

01:25:43

in a grocery store I had I had been in

01:25:45

one before but I had never been um

01:25:48

responsible for purchasing anything in a

01:25:50

grocery store before yes there so many

01:25:52

things like that that would never even

01:25:53

NL people just never even think about

01:25:56

yeah and just little things and kind of

01:25:58

things you take for granted now and even

01:25:59

I do but um yeah it's a big deal when

01:26:02

you have to learn a lot in a short

01:26:04

amount of time yeah what about treats

01:26:06

from the grocery store what what were

01:26:07

you like oh my God this is amazing

01:26:10

Coca-Cola no what uh well I thought

01:26:13

Coca-Cola was bad when we first left

01:26:16

so um but no yeah the treats and the

01:26:20

drinks and I guess too the options are

01:26:22

even overwhelming because you know

01:26:25

there's six different kinds of brown

01:26:27

rice well how do I

01:26:30

choose you go with what it was the the

01:26:32

one card

01:26:33

specie yes exactly yeah um someone

01:26:37

wanted on Instagram are you surprised

01:26:39

how much attention Glory of gets from

01:26:41

the outside in particular with things

01:26:42

like the Christmas

01:26:43

concert the Christmas concert oh the the

01:26:47

um B anal concert but it's not a

01:26:49

Christmas concert okay yeah this has

01:26:50

been a thing that's been on that TV the

01:26:52

propaganda TV series we talked about

01:26:54

where Outsiders are invited once a year

01:26:57

and you you put on a

01:26:59

show I think the ti sort of turned but I

01:27:01

do think I know what this person is

01:27:03

talking about there has always been this

01:27:05

sort of um I don't know this almost like

01:27:07

morbid curiosity or intrigued with

01:27:09

what's happening in Gloria yeah more

01:27:11

kind of a fascination of this strange

01:27:13

group of people over on the coast yeah

01:27:16

and I think I think over the years we've

01:27:17

thought well it's not my S lifestyle but

01:27:19

if they're happy doing it yeah who's to

01:27:21

judge them and then you know as it's

01:27:23

become a Weare thanks to people like you

01:27:25

guys um yeah it's not everything is as

01:27:28

idealistic as what it seems yeah and I

01:27:30

think that's what we've been um I guess

01:27:33

trying to do for years is show that it's

01:27:36

not what everybody thought it was on the

01:27:38

outside but also when you're in there

01:27:41

and people came to the concerts it was

01:27:43

kind of the best time of living in there

01:27:45

because you got to see Outsiders and um

01:27:48

I'm still um in contact with people who

01:27:51

went out of their way at those concerts

01:27:54

to come and talk to me and then when I

01:27:58

left found me and have kept contact up

01:28:01

so I think to make a point here any

01:28:05

interaction you have with someone who's

01:28:07

inside um it's really important how you

01:28:11

um how you are to them your kindness

01:28:14

your generosity your just genuine care

01:28:17

of who they are um and I can tell a

01:28:21

story of um actually at the employment

01:28:23

case

01:28:24

um was towards the end and there was a

01:28:27

girl that I grew up with there was lots

01:28:29

of them there but there was one in

01:28:31

particular that I hadn't seen um in 11

01:28:34

years and I I kind of I went up to her

01:28:38

and I could see she was visibly pregnant

01:28:41

um and I said hi and initially she was

01:28:44

kind of looking everywhere else and was

01:28:46

afraid to be seen talking to me and then

01:28:49

I just said to her um I can see that

01:28:52

you're pregnant congratulations

01:28:54

um how are you and she just burst into

01:28:58

tears and she said no one ever asks me

01:29:02

that and um and I think that is

01:29:08

something like that nobody actually

01:29:10

within the community cares about the

01:29:12

individual that the people aren't valued

01:29:16

and so when we can show that to them

01:29:18

from the outside it is incredibly

01:29:21

meaningful

01:29:24

I love that yeah

01:29:28

um there's a couple more but that um

01:29:32

that just felt like a really good way to

01:29:34

end it actually I think we we will end

01:29:36

it there okay um thank you so much for

01:29:39

your time today oh you're welcome thanks

01:29:42

for having me yeah oh no do you prefer

01:29:44

to be called Rosie or Rosanna um either

01:29:47

or I just I think Rosie has kind of

01:29:50

stuck because um that's pretty much all

01:29:53

I was called unless I was in

01:29:56

trouble it sounds like you were in

01:29:58

trouble a lot towards the end of my time

01:30:01

yeah definitely yes um but yeah so I

01:30:04

think Rosie is just it seems nicer to me

01:30:08

like if someone sees Rosanna I straight

01:30:10

away feel like I'm stood to

01:30:12

attention so yeah is is there anything

01:30:15

um is there anything that you want to

01:30:17

bring up is there anything that I

01:30:18

haven't mentioned today that you were

01:30:20

hoping we would have touched

01:30:22

upon um I don't think so yeah I don't

01:30:25

think so that's cool it's been great to

01:30:27

meet you and um I love the stuff you

01:30:29

share on on Instagram with you and

01:30:31

Elijah and the kids oh thank you thanks

01:30:33

so much for having me Dom I appreciate

01:30:34

it yeah oh no it's really inspirational

01:30:36

this the stuff that you're doing for um

01:30:38

to raise awareness about uh what's going

01:30:41

on what has gone on and um just helping

01:30:44

those that are that are still in there

01:30:45

it's really really cool thank you thanks

01:30:47

so much appreciate it yeah

01:30:51

[Music]

01:30:58

he

01:31:00

[Music]

Words per Minute Over Time