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[Music]
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Rosie Overcomer welcome to my podcast
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just throwing her phone to Theo who's
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sitting on the sofa how are you I'm good
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thanks um thanks for having me Don oh
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thank you so much for coming over um by
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by the way um you you're wearing jeans
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and a shirt with the sleeves rolled up
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they are very sexy
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elbows I did roll my sleeves down yeah
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can you can you I I I just I might be
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tempted oh dear um anyone that's uh
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listening to this or watching this that
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hasn't seen um uh what's it called
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finding Utopia escaping escaping Utopia
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um they'll have no idea what we're
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talking about but yeah the elbows get a
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mention they do they do hey it's so good
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to have you here today um one thing I
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wanted to know is
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um why don't you have the glory of Al
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accent did you have you know CU there's
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like a sort of voice yes there is that
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that new zealanders I think associate
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with people from Gloria val did you did
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you did you speak like that when you
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left and it's worn off or no
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um I would have definitely spoken like
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that when I left um I think there's a
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whole lot of reasons why you have the
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accent and I guess you're living in an
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isolated Community you only hear the
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people that you're listening to um
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there's not a lot of outside influence
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so um you pick up your own accent much
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like any small town or other isolated
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area would and then when you leave then
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you take on unknowingly like I didn't
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intend to change my accent when I left
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but would have been maybe a year after
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we left that I went back in at one point
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and one of my sisters said to me you've
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got an
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accent and that's when I kind of
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realized that they actually had an
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accent um and I think there's some other
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reasons for that too like um they really
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encourage women to have a sweet and
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almost childlike voice um so people that
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speak like that are encouraged um
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there's a bit of and then also I think
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there's quite a drone in their accent
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and that I really believe is because
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they don't have any individual
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personality and they're kind of
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repeating what they hear um and so it's
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almost a robotic kind of um accent that
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they've picked up yeah yeah so you've
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how old are you now what are you 37 37
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and it's like the 11 year just over the
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11 year anniversary so the first 26
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years of your life um you were in glory
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ofil or a variation of that beforehand
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um how has your faith changed since
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leaving are you are you still religious
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I am but I just backtrack a little bit
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I'm actually 38 I just
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remembered I've just had a birthday so
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I'm 38 so I was actually I was 27 when I
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left yes right that's a forgivable lie
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I'll tell you what I I have to my mom
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used to do that I'll be like how do you
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not know how old you are and now I'm I'm
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51 and us to to count the years yeah I'm
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the same yeah yes so Al so so you still
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you're still religious um yes I am I'd
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say I'm a Christian now and what I was
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in glor of Val was religious and I um
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hopeful and glor of Val were my God yeah
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so different but um I am a Christian now
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yeah and and you're in Oakland at the
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moment um doing legal stuff connected
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with Gloria ofil what what are you doing
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can you talk about that or um I can just
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say that the authorities are listening
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now and so we've done some work around
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that and now that's in their hands and I
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hope that they do what they can with it
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um but that's really all I can say about
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it yeah that's cool why
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um yeah I mean it's it's really good
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that you're you're doing that um I think
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it takes a lot of courage and a lot of
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lot of Bravery
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um why didn't you just like turn you
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back on the whole thing and think I've
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got out you know yeah put the door on
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this you box it up and just move on with
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the rest of my life like draw a line in
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the sand do you know what I mean that
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would have been the easier thing to do I
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think oh totally it would definitely be
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easy to just walk away um I think the
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main reason I haven't done that is
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because um my family are still there a
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lot of my family my friends and I guess
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I understand what kind of regime they're
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living under and that they have no idea
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about um choice or consent or freedom
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and I can't just walk away in good
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conscience and leave them there to
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suffer as I suffered um and with the
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amount of abuse in that within that
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environment um and how many children
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there are and
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uh I care about them I love them and so
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I will keep going well good on yeah I
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think that's really commendable because
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yeah for anyone like I suppose a
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generation older than you that made the
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choice to be in there um that's fine and
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that's one thing but then there's people
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like you who were born in there didn't
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have a say in the matter which is a
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different kid of fish all together oh it
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totally is um but even some of those
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people who joined in the early days like
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they joined something that they thought
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it was and they've been coerced and and
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manipulated to you know to live and
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believe what it is now but if it if it
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had started how it is now they would
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never have joined um and so I think it's
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important to note that those people
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themselves even have been manipulated to
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believe something that they wouldn't
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have yeah do you I mean you you agreed
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to come on the podcast today which I'm
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so so thankful for by the way we
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connected on Instagram it's like the
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most unglory ofil way of connecting ever
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um do you do you get sick of talking
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about it or are you just are you just
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that passionate about doing what's right
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that you just want to keep the
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conversation going as much as you can uh
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probably a bit of both I definitely can
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get sick of it um but I don't actually
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think I'd probably call it sick of it
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you just get tired and you can get
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exhausted and especially if you feel
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like the people that can do something
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aren't listening um but I I do feel
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passionate about helping them um
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supporting them in whatever way I can
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and so I'll keep going for that reason
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so I guess yeah the passion drives that
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but yeah I've definitely um been
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exhausted and over it before and
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thought you know maybe I should just
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walk away but um it comes down to it
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just they mean too much to me and I
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can't yeah just leave them and you know
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there's so many of us that have left
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that are all doing our
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own part and trying in our own way to
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make a difference in their lives and if
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we all just walked away um that'd go
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back to how abusive they've been for 50
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years and that's just not okay and it
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can't happen and I mean we're a small
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country there's 600 people which is you
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know it's a big part of our small
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country um and we can't just forget
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about them yeah that's one thing I got
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from um watching the that that amazing
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three part series escaping Utopia on TV
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andz plus um just the sense of um I
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don't know know the sense of like
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fairness or um the moral compass that
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you and Elijah your amazing husband and
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baby daddy have it's like I'm actually
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getting emotional yeah thinking about it
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um yeah just the the sense of like
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what's right even when you're in there
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and now carrying on yeah 11 years after
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you've left with um the work you're
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doing now
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um about that show like when it's been
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out like maybe a month now 5 weeks or
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something I'm not sure when that came
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out who yeah who who did you watch it
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with what was evening like that day like
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so we had watched it um quite a bit
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earlier than everyone else oh you got
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like an advance yeah we did but um
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actually the night the first episode
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came out I was in ockland at the time
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with Theo and my sister pear um you Theo
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by the way another one of the stars of
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the documentary she has the for me I
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think the line of the series uh do you
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want to come over and say on mik come
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over
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here make sure the camera can see you
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what is it the line about the
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cheese I know how to make cheese but I
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don't know who Taylor Swift is that's
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the
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line we'll have to get you back for your
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own episode at some point I love that
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line so much oh so yeah you're watching
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with Theo and PE yeah so we watched it
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with Theo and PE that first episode and
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um it's quite funny because so we were
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uh J to be on breakfast show the next
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morning um and I could not sit still I
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actually was ironing clothes cuz I
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needed something to do and when there
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was the way shot of me um in the laundry
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pear my sister was sitting on the bead
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and she films me she Sayes nothing's
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changed um but yeah it was I guess it
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it's nerve-wracking putting yourself out
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there and realizing that you are now in
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the public eye in a big way um but also
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the purpose behind it is what keep me
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yeah grounded and going I actually
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haven't watched the other two episodes
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since our first viewing um I see you
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watched CU you're your your main part I
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think is an episode two is that the
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episode you watched or oh know so we
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I've watched it all okay yeah I have
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watched it all I'm in in every episode
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um the first episode is kind of
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introducing a lot of different um people
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and there's a lot of Pilgrim in Boz and
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then the second episode is more Elijah
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and I and then the third episode is
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where Theo and I went to India um but
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yeah I have watched the whole thing just
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when it came out to the New Zealand
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Public I only watched the first episode
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again with Theo and P yeah but is is it
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emotional when you when you watch it or
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like you know how how does it how does
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it feel or do you manage to sort of
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separate that no no it's emotional I I
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just go straight back into it um and I
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feel a lot like I'm back in there and I
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think what does it to me too is that
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it's still a reality for so many people
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and I know my nieces and my neews in
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that and so it still is so real to me
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and I know what they're going through so
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I I do struggle to separate myself from
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that um yeah so it's emotional and it's
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hard yeah so so when you leave after um
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spending the first 26 years of your life
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in there what what do you leave
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with um what did we leave with we left
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with um some of our clothes and you know
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towels and bedding and um and our photos
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really that was all yeah um the day we
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left we packed up what we had and then
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um one of the leaders came in and he
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went through all our bags and pulled out
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our Glory Veil clothes so that didn't
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really leave us with anything um yeah
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not a lot don't leave with a lot you
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you've got one dress as a souvenir out
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during he didn't find that one when he
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went through our bags so why why why did
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why did you want to keep that as a
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souvenir why did you um well I didn't
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originally think I was keeping it as a
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souvenir like the reason we packed it is
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because that's all we had um and but
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I've just kept it because it is a big
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part of my life um 27 years um of my
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life and I can't just um pretend it
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didn't exist cuz it did and that and to
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me too that would be doing what gloral
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does to people when they leave um they
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burn photos um edit you out of videos
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never speak your name and act as if you
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didn't exist
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and that's just um it's cutting off
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something that is is actually real so I
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can't do that yeah yeah it is um it's so
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cruel and callous eh very cruel yeah
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yeah it's do you think that's done by
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Design to just remove any temptation of
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leaving it's like if you leave that's it
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you yeah absolutely it's it's done for
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that reason and also to make sure
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there's no connection with your family
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so say when my brother left there's no
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opportunity for connection with them CU
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there's no um way to get hold of them
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and they've so
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um they're completely wiped from your
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life so that they can't influence back
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in and then you know influence you to
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leave so yeah which is funny CU it's the
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most it's the most unchristian thing
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imaginable yes yeah you know just the
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irony of it so there was there was a TV
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documentary series um actually it's
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still the episodes of it still up on the
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glory OFA website this would have been
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um I suppose about the time you either
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left or were thinking about leaving do
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you know the series I'm talking about a
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bunch of episodes and it was sort like
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felt like it was like propaganda in a
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way for yeah I know ex the series you're
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talking about does that how does that
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make you feel does that make you feel
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sort of angry it feels like I remember
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watching it at the time and I was doing
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a doing a radio show at the time on a
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station called The Edge and we we sort
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of I don't know I I suppose we sort of
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bought into the glory of Al hype and
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Dove love was very famous at the time um
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what's Dove love doing is she still in
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there Dove love is still in glor val
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definitely was was she aware of her
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level of fame or no not really probably
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not really I think she knew to some
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extent but no I don't think she would
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ever understand unless she was out here
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at the time yeah hul Fame so so so how
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how did that series make you feel like
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does it does it does it make you blood
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boil now are you angry sort of like um
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paints paints a very idelic you know
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pleas pretty picture about what Glory of
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is yeah it was it was pretty hard for me
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to watch that at the time I was in there
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when they filmed most of it and had left
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by the time it came out um and a lot of
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that filming is does have my sister and
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who wedding as part of that documentary
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as well um that came out after we left
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and I guess while they were filming it
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was a very uh tumultuous confusing time
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for me and Elijah as well in there um he
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had been kicked out um while they were
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doing the filming and it it actually
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directly related to a lot of what they
00:14:39
were trying to show um and so it felt
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like a personal a personal hurt when I
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watched it and they were showing oh you
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know this is this um beautiful amazing
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self-sufficient community and um behind
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the scenes while they're filming that
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very thing they were trying to destroy
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my marriage and um my husband
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yeah yeah yeah yeah we'll get to that
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because um your husband Elijah I mean um
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yeah I suppose this is one amazing thing
00:15:12
for you that's come out of Glory of like
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you met this guy and he just seems like
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just the best straightup dude imaginable
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um and I I just can't imagine um yeah
00:15:22
the courage that it took for him to
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confront the leaders because it sounds
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yeah it sounds like a very intimidating
00:15:28
environment to to question anything so
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for him to do that and then the
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aftermath that happened yeah we we'll
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get to that shortly but um just on Glory
00:15:35
of for a second so so when you're in
00:15:37
there um you you legit have no idea like
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who Taylor Swift is and no no idea I
00:15:43
think we had I definitely didn't know
00:15:45
who Taylor Swift was I had heard of
00:15:47
Britney
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Spears um so there's some funny way
00:15:52
stories they disconnect all the radios
00:15:54
out of the cars
00:15:56
but um I guess people people and boys
00:16:00
that had access to some things would go
00:16:02
and rehook them back up um and wire them
00:16:05
in and that sort of thing and listen to
00:16:07
the radio so and then record songs on
00:16:10
little cassette tapes and then we had
00:16:12
like a little black market of cassette
00:16:15
tapes yeah cassette tapes but we're only
00:16:16
talking like 10 years
00:16:18
ago we're kind of behind the rest of the
00:16:22
world does does it well does anyone have
00:16:24
an iPhone that they could do no now
00:16:26
there would be people with phones but
00:16:28
back when I left absolutely not no um
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and still even your access within having
00:16:34
a phone is very limited like they
00:16:36
restrict all um Wi-Fi access so if I go
00:16:39
up there with my phone and go onto the
00:16:41
Wi-Fi I can't Google Taylor Swift I
00:16:44
can't Google even Kmart or Instagram
00:16:47
it's blocked all those websites are
00:16:49
blocked okay yeah so so when you're in
00:16:51
there as a as a as a woman in your late
00:16:54
tens early 20s are you are you familiar
00:16:56
with the word Google and no no
00:16:59
no definitely not but there must have
00:17:00
been things that you you knew though
00:17:02
because you you go for Town visits
00:17:04
occasionally um so you must be familiar
00:17:06
with um yeah I don't know the warehouse
00:17:09
McDonald's Subway yeah yeah you it's a
00:17:13
hard one to kind of understand I guess
00:17:15
before you even uh allowed out into the
00:17:18
world like for a dentist visit or
00:17:19
something like that you're already
00:17:21
prepped to believe that all these things
00:17:23
out here are bad and evil and aimed at
00:17:26
pulling you away from the truth and away
00:17:28
from God and taking you to hell and so
00:17:30
you kind of look at everything and
00:17:32
everybody with that lens sort of
00:17:34
distrust yeah immense distrust and
00:17:38
um everything is
00:17:40
worldly so inside glor Val anything that
00:17:43
is outside there is worldly and that
00:17:45
means that it is from the devil and it's
00:17:48
being used to take you effectively to
00:17:50
hell so um and even the warehouse like
00:17:53
we didn't shop at the warehouse for
00:17:55
years and years and years because they
00:17:57
sold the book book
00:17:59
um Phil's book so Phil is nille Cooper's
00:18:03
son and it's called sons of the father
00:18:05
and they refused to take it off their
00:18:07
shelves and so we nobody was allowed to
00:18:11
go to the warehouse um but even in going
00:18:14
to the warehouse like normally if you
00:18:16
went there it would be to buy like a 100
00:18:18
pair of shoes that were on sale it's not
00:18:20
like you went in there with your own
00:18:21
money and got what you wanted um
00:18:24
McDonald's didn't go to McDonald's
00:18:27
didn't go to KFC you don't have money to
00:18:29
spend at those places so when you're
00:18:30
going into the outside world you're
00:18:32
going with a group of people you go to
00:18:33
your appointment you get picked up and
00:18:35
then take them back so um yeah you see
00:18:38
things of the outside world I mean I
00:18:39
went to India while I was in there too
00:18:41
but yeah yeah yeah so so yeah so that's
00:18:44
one thing that from um escaping Utopia
00:18:46
so you you went to India so you're on
00:18:48
the plane for 15 hours whatever you you
00:18:51
must be watching movies on the back of
00:18:53
your seat or yeah yeah yeah was thaty
00:18:55
though yeah yeah we got told
00:18:59
um before we got on the plane that we
00:19:02
weren't allowed to start watching any
00:19:04
movies until the leader had checked that
00:19:06
was with us on the trip had checked what
00:19:09
there was on offer and then he would
00:19:10
come and tell us which ones we were
00:19:12
allowed to watch which did happen but
00:19:15
also when you when he's watching his and
00:19:18
you're like 10 rows up the plane and
00:19:21
nobody else is watching well you can
00:19:23
choose and you just have to be real
00:19:25
ready to quickly switch it off if they
00:19:28
come and to cheek on you yeah so so so
00:19:31
in a situation like that are you are you
00:19:33
scared you obviously there's the
00:19:34
immediate um fear of the leader that's
00:19:36
with you but are you also fearful of
00:19:38
like being punished by God and yeah I
00:19:41
think there's a bit of that that comes
00:19:42
into it and a lot of guilt while so you
00:19:45
might think oh I'm going to go I'm going
00:19:47
to watch this and then while you're
00:19:49
watching it guilt will just take over um
00:19:51
or maybe later you'll feel really guilty
00:19:53
about it and so you'll confess um you're
00:19:56
sitting there going oh my God I'm going
00:19:57
to go a hell forever C's retreat was
00:19:59
even not wasn't even even a good
00:20:02
movie yeah and I I think too then if
00:20:06
something else so say later on something
00:20:08
else went wrong in your life you would
00:20:10
think oh that's because I disobeyed and
00:20:12
I sinned and so you go back and confess
00:20:14
about this is what I did um yeah so
00:20:18
there's a lot of guilt around that sort
00:20:19
of thing besides the fact that you're
00:20:21
kind of on eggshells thinking I could
00:20:23
get caught at any minute
00:20:26
yeah oh God what a what a stressful way
00:20:28
your life but surely um your
00:20:30
interactions you have with people
00:20:32
outside even though you're wey of them
00:20:34
and you know they're Outsiders um so you
00:20:36
sitting next to someone on the plane you
00:20:37
have a nice conversation with them or
00:20:39
someone's nice to you in the the
00:20:40
warehouse when you're buying the
00:20:42
shoes Sur you start to question things
00:20:45
at that point like oh okay that person
00:20:48
seems like a good person you know what I
00:20:49
me yeah and I would say that's true
00:20:51
because people are definitely um really
00:20:55
polite and lovely and helpful and and we
00:20:58
were Tau to to be polite back but um if
00:21:01
they're not a Christian then their whole
00:21:05
motive we were taught was to influence
00:21:07
you to think they were good so that you
00:21:09
would follow them and then obviously the
00:21:12
result of that is that you were going to
00:21:13
hell um and so there was something else
00:21:15
we tau is that the devil will make you
00:21:18
feel good on the outside so that you
00:21:20
trust him so anybody that anybody that
00:21:23
does good things is in fact the devil
00:21:25
trying to influence you which is just so
00:21:29
messed up but it it kind of preps you to
00:21:32
be still thinking yeah they're being
00:21:34
nice to me yeah they're doing something
00:21:36
good but that's because the devil's
00:21:38
behind it yeah so what what's your
00:21:41
belief now do you think there's like a
00:21:43
an Afterlife with a heaven in a hell um
00:21:47
yes I think there's a heaven some might
00:21:49
say hell is listening to Britney Spears
00:21:50
on repeat over and over again I think I
00:21:52
think what I'm focused on is doing what
00:21:55
I believe is right and what um
00:21:59
and also now I believe that God is a
00:22:02
good father not a cruel judge and so um
00:22:06
yeah and I believe he cares about me has
00:22:09
my best interests at heart and um really
00:22:11
that's why I actually am here today
00:22:14
because if I didn't have my faith in God
00:22:16
I yeah I actually wouldn't physically be
00:22:21
here what do you mean you wouldn't
00:22:22
physically be here
00:22:27
um now we might get emotional I've got
00:22:30
I've got a box of tissues down okay um I
00:22:35
guess you're uh struggle a lot with um
00:22:39
depression and yeah taking my life at
00:22:42
one point was the only option out so
00:22:45
um
00:22:48
yeah how old were you
00:22:51
then
00:22:53
18
00:22:55
yeah oh mate that's terrible
00:23:00
and yeah I thought that would be the
00:23:01
better option than
00:23:05
leaving even though um by Glory of our
00:23:08
rules like taking your own life would be
00:23:10
a sin so you're going to hell for that
00:23:12
yeah but if you leave that's more sinful
00:23:15
so you'll get more punishment in
00:23:19
Hell how did you get through that
00:23:24
um just uh through just really talking
00:23:28
to God like all the time I just talked
00:23:31
to God and
00:23:33
um prayed that he would show that he
00:23:36
cared about me and um give me a way out
00:23:41
and give me some hope
00:23:43
yeah and did he I guess he did yeah it
00:23:47
wasn't like an overnight fix but um God
00:23:50
has really just given me um all little
00:23:54
things along the way and whether that's
00:23:56
say someone like my mom the next day
00:23:59
telling me that she loved me which I
00:24:01
hadn't heard her say since I was about 6
00:24:03
years
00:24:05
old
00:24:07
yeah so you're just looking for a
00:24:09
glimmer like a sign or something yeah
00:24:11
it's quite funny well it's not funny at
00:24:13
all actually but um there's are you
00:24:16
familiar with someone called sjn Kuan I
00:24:19
do know the name and I think he's a
00:24:21
rugby player am I correct or not yeah
00:24:23
yeah he's a famous all black but he's
00:24:25
become more famous as a mental health
00:24:26
Advocate right and he
00:24:28
when it's probably about the time you
00:24:30
were born actually in um the late 1980s
00:24:32
when he was at the peak of his old black
00:24:34
career he was in this hotel room in
00:24:36
Argentina with the All Blacks and um he
00:24:39
had a game I think he had a game before
00:24:41
the day before and the game was really
00:24:43
good but he thought he was going to be
00:24:44
dumped because it's just his mental
00:24:45
health was all over the place and the
00:24:47
balcony door was open and they were like
00:24:48
eight floors up or something and he was
00:24:50
like he had just this thought of like
00:24:52
just just running out and jumping out
00:24:53
the window and his um his teammate who
00:24:56
was on the next bed next to him Michael
00:24:58
Jones um who's a very religious man as
00:25:00
well just out of the blue he said you
00:25:03
know what JK you're a good man and um
00:25:06
and that was the sign that JK needed at
00:25:09
the time to sort of save his life yeah
00:25:11
yeah sounds like a similar thing to you
00:25:13
you're just looking for any sort of
00:25:14
glimmer of yeah yeah yeah and it was
00:25:16
just little things like that but it
00:25:18
really made a big impact and that's just
00:25:21
mom telling me that she loved me and I
00:25:22
felt like it was worth sticking around
00:25:24
for that what's your relationship like
00:25:26
with your with your mom now
00:25:29
um I'd say it's um is she still in there
00:25:33
she is still in there so it's strained
00:25:36
um and sometimes it can be really good
00:25:38
and other times not
00:25:41
um but yeah it's a tricky one to explain
00:25:45
um I love Mom hoaps and I think her and
00:25:48
Dad have done the best with what they
00:25:50
knew and the tools they had um within
00:25:53
that environment to raise all of us um
00:25:56
and I really respect her
00:25:58
and and I love her for that but um I
00:26:03
guess it will probably never be a really
00:26:05
close relationship
00:26:08
yeah you don't seem to have like a chip
00:26:10
on your shoulder at all or anything like
00:26:13
yeah I don't know I'm probably
00:26:14
projecting here but I feel like if it
00:26:15
was me I'd probably be kind of resentful
00:26:17
like you know in a way almost like if
00:26:19
you like it's like if you know it's like
00:26:22
quarter of your life if you liveed to
00:26:24
100 that that you spent in this
00:26:25
environment and it was like their
00:26:26
decision I think
00:26:29
I think there's probably a few reasons
00:26:30
for that and there's definitely been
00:26:31
times where that that feeling has come
00:26:34
and I've been and probably not so much
00:26:36
against mom and dad but maybe against
00:26:38
more um leaders or people that were very
00:26:41
abusive to me um and where there'll be
00:26:44
times where I feel angry um but anger
00:26:47
doesn't really do a lot for fixing the
00:26:51
situation um but also yeah I just think
00:26:55
that I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't
00:26:58
for the life I've lived and I don't want
00:27:00
that life for my children but I'm still
00:27:03
grateful to my parents for for what
00:27:06
they've done for me yeah do you think
00:27:08
this this positivity that you've got and
00:27:10
this attitude do you think part of that
00:27:11
comes from your faith probably yeah yeah
00:27:14
definitely yeah and why um um I was
00:27:18
going to ask about your name like and
00:27:20
this may seem like a really weird
00:27:21
question because obviously you know you
00:27:22
leave when you're 27 and so so Rosie
00:27:25
Overcomer is your name and it's all
00:27:26
you've ever known but it is also your
00:27:29
glory of Val name and if you if you went
00:27:30
back through family records or family
00:27:33
trees or I don't know ancestry.com
00:27:35
whatever you could find out what is your
00:27:37
actual family name do you know um I do I
00:27:40
do know so overcome is my married name
00:27:43
um and before I was Overcomer I had a
00:27:47
maiden name so my family glor maiden
00:27:49
name was hope and before that it was
00:27:52
steadfast and my dad's name is Marcus
00:27:55
bolliger so it would have been bolliger
00:27:58
right um but all those name changes are
00:28:00
legal name changes so when I fill in
00:28:03
forms and I have to write my maiden name
00:28:05
there's a few to
00:28:09
write God oh my God that put put you off
00:28:12
traveling a oh it's too hard with all
00:28:14
the forms yeah oh my God yeah I noticed
00:28:17
um something I spotted in the background
00:28:18
of um escaping Utopia and your family
00:28:22
home now you've got like some wall art
00:28:23
and it's um it's like Overcomer the name
00:28:27
and what each word means do you know
00:28:28
what it is off the top of your head no I
00:28:31
don't actually cuz my husband did
00:28:33
it um it's really cool though it's good
00:28:36
one actually I think I've got a photo of
00:28:37
it so throws my phone back I can um have
00:28:40
a look but yeah it is really good and I
00:28:43
don't know what off the top of my head
00:28:45
but um I think the name Overcomer has
00:28:49
become I guess really significant to us
00:28:51
as well and it's who we are now cuz we
00:28:54
have overcome a lot and and also
00:28:58
everybody knows Us by their name um so
00:29:01
it's yeah it would be hard to change it
00:29:04
so if we changed it now to my husband's
00:29:07
family name is b boom so it be there and
00:29:10
I I don't know I think overcoming
00:29:12
Probably sounds bitter bter than what
00:29:14
what is it bbom ball spoon bbom bbom
00:29:19
yeah right that's a Dutch name overcome
00:29:21
is easy isn't it let's stick with it um
00:29:24
a couple of light-hearted ones um like
00:29:27
what what are the coolest things you
00:29:28
found when you when you first left I'm
00:29:29
thinking like TV shows mu music gadgets
00:29:33
fashion fast I Noti you got a nose
00:29:34
piercing I have got nose I've got like
00:29:38
few of my ears too which is which is not
00:29:41
okay so
00:29:43
so so so so you leave glor of Valen I'm
00:29:46
sure there's a a massive amount of um
00:29:49
like guilt and shame at that point and
00:29:50
confusion and um just a whole range of
00:29:53
emotions but then you sort of settle
00:29:54
into the groove of um being an outsider
00:29:57
then what what were some of the big
00:29:58
surprises like what became early
00:30:00
addictions like gry's Anatomy or
00:30:02
something or no no I've only kind of
00:30:05
just heard of that one no it's been a
00:30:07
while um I think it actually probably
00:30:10
took me about a year to really start
00:30:13
kind of embracing or leaning into
00:30:15
leaning into it yeah cuz that first year
00:30:17
was I mean I was a mom I had three very
00:30:21
young children I had fourth on the way
00:30:23
um that fourth was born within the first
00:30:25
year and so that's you know there was a
00:30:29
lot to kind of deal with just learning
00:30:31
how to actually care for them um so
00:30:35
Bening watching Netflix shows was the
00:30:37
last thing on your mind yeah no I didn't
00:30:39
do that but I actually the first thing
00:30:41
that I loved that I really thought oh
00:30:45
this is good is I got a haircut um and
00:30:48
that was a friend organized that for me
00:30:50
for my 28th birthday and um the first
00:30:53
time I'd ever celebrated a birthday was
00:30:55
my 28th birthday and I can remember
00:30:57
walking to down the street and just like
00:30:59
going oh I feel free cuz I'd cut like
00:31:04
this much hair off um
00:31:07
and yeah that that was I don't know I
00:31:11
felt really significant to me as well
00:31:13
too because it was a direct Rebellion to
00:31:18
um being in glory Val where women
00:31:20
weren't allowed to cut their hair and I
00:31:23
had done that and it was kind of like I
00:31:24
had U made a stand with a than myself of
00:31:29
that that was not something I believed
00:31:32
in anymore yeah I bet you 30 million
00:31:33
bucks as well yeah I did I I can
00:31:35
remember walking down the street still I
00:31:37
can still remember the feeling I'm
00:31:38
feeling like I was shaking my head like
00:31:40
just feeling so light um and another
00:31:44
really significant moment for me was the
00:31:45
first time I put on jeans and it would
00:31:48
have been well after a year after we
00:31:50
left um what did you wear for the first
00:31:52
year just skirts long skirts yeah and
00:31:55
then I kind of graduated to KNE length
00:31:57
skirt but I felt like everybody knew
00:32:00
every regular person that saw me knew
00:32:04
that I wasn't dressed how I should be um
00:32:06
and that I think too is because you've
00:32:07
grown up with this very judgmental
00:32:09
mindset where everybody like your
00:32:11
outward appearance is everything and um
00:32:14
so I just felt like that's what
00:32:16
everybody was doing judging me and they
00:32:18
knew that I wasn't wearing what I should
00:32:20
be wearing as well as I was just
00:32:22
terrified of being spotted by someone
00:32:24
from glor
00:32:25
Val we why just for the judgement
00:32:28
yeah for the Judgment for what they
00:32:30
would um I guess say about me think
00:32:32
about me um which seems silly now but um
00:32:36
it just felt very real at the time and
00:32:39
then when we left lots of people donated
00:32:42
clothes and that sort of thing and there
00:32:43
were jeans in there and I knew I didn't
00:32:46
believe that it was wrong for women to
00:32:48
wear jeans but I thought that I couldn't
00:32:50
so I'd kept a couple of here and I'd
00:32:51
actually said to Elijah a few times can
00:32:53
you tell me to wear the jeans
00:32:58
and he was like no like you wear them if
00:33:01
you want I'm not telling you what to do
00:33:03
like you if you want to wear them wear
00:33:05
them if you don't don't like honestly
00:33:08
it's not up to me what you wear it's up
00:33:10
to you and I'm not telling you what to
00:33:12
do so I'm really grateful to them for
00:33:13
that but at the time I was like well if
00:33:15
you just tell me then I can do it um and
00:33:19
would have been yeah over a year later
00:33:22
after we left and um I was actually
00:33:24
helping him on the farm and I went over
00:33:27
climbed over an electric fence and got
00:33:29
this massive shock because my skirt got
00:33:32
hooked on the fence and I just thought
00:33:34
this is stupid so I went home put the
00:33:36
jeans on and I was like oh I'm still me
00:33:41
like the jeans haven't changed who I am
00:33:43
and that was a really I guess another
00:33:47
kind of significant moment for me to
00:33:48
realize that it wasn't the clothes who
00:33:50
made me who I was yeah wow yeah maybe
00:33:54
the electric shock was a son from God
00:33:56
come on put the on I'm not worried yeah
00:34:00
exactly yeah um what what about music
00:34:03
and stuff that you leaned into what what
00:34:05
did you what did you anything that you
00:34:06
sort of gravitated towards what did you
00:34:08
have inside was it just sort of worship
00:34:10
music yeah mostly worship classical a
00:34:12
lot of we were allowed to listen to
00:34:13
classical music and we played a lot of
00:34:15
um classical stuff but like because we
00:34:18
all learned an instrument or multiple
00:34:20
instruments um what music did I lean
00:34:24
into Cold
00:34:26
Play you you know me better than me Theo
00:34:29
yes Coldplay yeah um love
00:34:31
Coldplay um going to the concert at the
00:34:34
end of this year yeah oh so am I I
00:34:37
missed the concert last time around and
00:34:39
I thought I I don't want to end up with
00:34:40
fomo again so I bought them bloody
00:34:43
expensive though aren't they yeah but
00:34:46
yeah no I don't I didn't really get into
00:34:47
music for a long time um Elijah's into
00:34:50
music big time and he was one of the
00:34:51
ones that was hooking up the radio and
00:34:53
um recording music to pass around so he
00:34:56
he already had a bit of a he knew what
00:34:58
he liked um but I do remember thinking
00:35:01
for a long time that you couldn't listen
00:35:02
to anything with a heavy beat um or like
00:35:05
rock Musical that sort of thing because
00:35:07
that was quite sinful so I took a while
00:35:09
to get into that yeah is Cold Play going
00:35:13
to be first concert no it was going to
00:35:16
be until um pink came to denan and
00:35:19
somebody had a ticket to sell a week
00:35:21
before and asked me if I want to go so
00:35:22
I've been to Pink yeah oh just recently
00:35:24
yeah just recently that was my first
00:35:25
ever concert yeah how was that was that
00:35:27
we no I loved it yeah it was amazing it
00:35:30
absolutely incredible uh phenomenal
00:35:33
phenomenal and I was like what have I
00:35:34
been missing out on yeah so I mean it's
00:35:38
it's been a it's been a long time since
00:35:39
you've been out it's been like at this
00:35:41
point 10 years 11 years or whatever do
00:35:42
you do you feel like pangs of guilt when
00:35:44
you're there or anything or no not at
00:35:46
all um when I'm at when you no when
00:35:50
you're when you're going to the Pink
00:35:51
concert or when you're in the Pink
00:35:52
concert with all these other Outsiders
00:35:54
no I think it's not lost on me that
00:35:58
my life is so different now to what I
00:36:00
could have ever imagined and that's
00:36:02
probably more what it is it's like I
00:36:04
think oh um I could never have imagined
00:36:07
myself living this life or going to a
00:36:09
pink concert I still have values and I
00:36:12
still live my life aligned to those
00:36:14
values um and I still have a faith in
00:36:16
God and so that's important to me but
00:36:19
that's based on my relationship with God
00:36:22
not on what anybody else sees is okay or
00:36:24
not okay and so I don't have any guilt
00:36:26
about what I to do yeah yeah I love that
00:36:31
so much yeah I I had um a very um very
00:36:35
strict Catholic upbringing um I mean
00:36:38
obviously a lot Freer than your it's
00:36:39
nothing like being in um being in a cult
00:36:41
like glor ofil but um yeah God God to us
00:36:44
was a Punisher like every every time we
00:36:48
did something wrong mom was like God's
00:36:49
going to punish you God's so say God to
00:36:52
us seem like a bully rather than a nice
00:36:53
person and then um I i' I'd consider
00:36:56
myself to be an atheist now because I
00:36:58
realized As I Grew Older um you can be a
00:37:00
good person and not have any religious
00:37:02
belief or you can be you can be a
00:37:04
complete dick and be very very religious
00:37:06
oh I fully agree with you I do fully
00:37:08
agree with you but you can be a good
00:37:09
person and be a Christian too which is
00:37:11
something F out since abolutely yeah
00:37:14
yeah absolutely um anything you miss
00:37:16
about Glory Val apart from family and
00:37:18
friends um prob probably just the
00:37:21
ability to um s say something needs
00:37:24
doing the ability to have this big
00:37:27
Collective of walking working towards
00:37:29
the same goal and really be able to
00:37:31
achieve something quite significant in a
00:37:33
short amount of time um yeah like I
00:37:36
guess that that comes from nobody
00:37:38
actually having a job I'd do that in
00:37:43
inverted um and so when something needs
00:37:45
to happen in a hurry everybody is just
00:37:47
called and you can really make stuff
00:37:50
happen um but which is quite cool to be
00:37:52
part of something like that um but I I
00:37:56
can't say I particularly Miss but that
00:37:59
yeah when we did things like that I
00:38:00
thought oh yeah it was fun it was great
00:38:03
yeah yeah so back to the um the the eoms
00:38:06
thing with the the job um has has that
00:38:08
changed now like it's it's gone through
00:38:10
an employment court and stuff so are
00:38:12
people in glor Veil getting paid now for
00:38:14
the work they do or no no no no right
00:38:18
but it went through Court did nothing
00:38:19
change from that well they're still
00:38:21
working on that but um I think what's
00:38:23
important is that to know is gloral is
00:38:26
absolute professionals at
00:38:29
Optics so they will say all the right
00:38:32
things um perform make it look like
00:38:35
they're doing the right things behind
00:38:37
closed doors they will say nothing
00:38:39
changes this is what we
00:38:41
believe but things have changed in
00:38:44
little increments um and I think that
00:38:46
has come from the court cases and the
00:38:48
outside pressure where if that backed
00:38:50
off they would revert back to their old
00:38:52
ways so they do pay they pay the men but
00:38:57
then
00:38:58
the men are they have to gift it back so
00:39:02
they're so used to being manipulated
00:39:04
told what to do they think they're doing
00:39:06
this for God that they're still
00:39:08
effectively not being paid for their
00:39:11
work and being paid the absolute be a
00:39:13
minimum too so um so then they just
00:39:16
start recording all the hours as
00:39:18
volunteer hours rather than as um work
00:39:21
hours so they can pay them
00:39:23
less right okay so it's kind of a
00:39:25
twisted loophole sort of it is yeah and
00:39:27
I suppose their argument is what do you
00:39:29
need money for everything you need is
00:39:31
provided yes everything you need is
00:39:32
provided and you need to give your money
00:39:34
back to the Lord's work and yeah selfish
00:39:37
if you keep it yeah gez it would have
00:39:39
been nice when you when you when you
00:39:41
left if you got given like a lump sum of
00:39:43
money for the work You' done though even
00:39:44
if it was you know below minimum wage
00:39:47
yeah it would have been something to set
00:39:49
you up we did get given $1,000 the day
00:39:51
we left um got enough to buy two tickets
00:39:54
to cold playay yeah it's good day
00:39:57
us it like that then though um yeah and
00:40:00
I mean they made us sign to say that we
00:40:03
had received a gift of $1,000 and that
00:40:05
it was full recompense for any work that
00:40:07
I had ever done in my life there um
00:40:10
which I shouldn't have signed in
00:40:11
hindsight but I guess that stage you
00:40:13
just wanted out I yeah I was I just
00:40:15
wanted out I'd already had six hours of
00:40:17
people just um yeah really going hard in
00:40:22
like tear and juicing kind of attacks
00:40:25
verbal attacks and so I just wanted out
00:40:28
so yeah signed it yeah 6 hours so that's
00:40:32
the leadership group having a having a
00:40:34
go initially the the leadership how many
00:40:36
how many people uh there's 12 of them
00:40:39
right okay so so you're a you're a young
00:40:41
M of three and your mid 20s and you got
00:40:43
12 Grand men just what like like raising
00:40:46
their voices or oh yeah absolutely yeah
00:40:49
yeah um and that was in a meeting with
00:40:52
both Elijah and I on that last day and
00:40:54
then when they kind of realized they
00:40:56
weren't getting anywhere with us um they
00:40:58
threw up their hands and left the room
00:41:00
and then they sent all my friends my
00:41:04
siblings parents um one after the other
00:41:08
to talk to me so that yeah one would
00:41:11
come tell me how wrong I was losing my
00:41:15
faith giving up um how could I do this
00:41:17
to my kids how could I take them to how
00:41:19
and then when they weren't getting where
00:41:21
that' go the next one would come and
00:41:22
that went on yeah for six hours
00:41:29
yeah why why didn't you just say I'm
00:41:32
thinking if I was in your position and I
00:41:33
had like 12 people you know that i' I'd
00:41:36
grown up as my sort of bosses or leaders
00:41:38
or whatever you want to call them my
00:41:39
entire life I'd probably just end up
00:41:42
caving and staying like where did that
00:41:44
strength come from for you guys to stick
00:41:45
to your guns dig your heels and then go
00:41:48
well I had already I had already given
00:41:49
in multiple times before that day um
00:41:52
there had been other meetings there had
00:41:54
been meetings I'd been in alone with out
00:41:57
Elijah um and just the men and I had
00:42:01
given in in those meetings um and there'
00:42:04
been one where I was with Elijah and I
00:42:07
had given in that one and I think by
00:42:09
this point I had really made the
00:42:11
decision myself that
00:42:15
um one the place wasn't safe for my kids
00:42:19
which is what really led me on the
00:42:21
Journey of leaving in the first place
00:42:24
but the main thing was seeing that the
00:42:27
leaders were so happy to lie to cover
00:42:31
themselves and seeing that just in black
00:42:34
and white over and over again over a
00:42:36
period of months um that they were very
00:42:40
happy to destroy a marriage um to
00:42:42
destroy a person and to make themselves
00:42:46
look good throughout the process that I
00:42:49
just I knew that that wasn't Godly and
00:42:53
that they were using God and even like
00:42:56
slandering who God is um to make
00:42:59
themselves into gods and um I I could
00:43:03
just see it really clearly by this point
00:43:05
and so I knew that that's not who I
00:43:07
wanted to follow anymore yeah oh they
00:43:09
just shown their true colors over yeah
00:43:12
yeah okay let's talk about Elijah um I
00:43:14
feel like we've talked about him a lot
00:43:16
but um yeah watching escaping Utopia
00:43:20
just the relationship that you guys have
00:43:22
and the kind of man he is um it's it's
00:43:24
an incredible relationship you guys have
00:43:26
got so guessing if you to list all the
00:43:29
positives from Glory Val he'd be top of
00:43:30
the list yeah um what else so there's
00:43:33
getting things done like you said before
00:43:35
yeah anything else um I mean I'm pretty
00:43:37
grateful for the skills I've learned
00:43:39
like sewing making cheese I don't make
00:43:43
chees but but um I don't know it's real
00:43:46
Handy knowing how to um fix mend clothes
00:43:49
and that sort of thing and I and I
00:43:50
actually love making stuff um and then
00:43:55
yeah just general skills
00:43:57
I can I can make bread I can make I can
00:43:59
make yogurt I can I can do a lot of
00:44:02
those things and they're really easy and
00:44:04
simple to me like I don't have to think
00:44:05
about it whereas I know like other Ms
00:44:08
and other people out here you know
00:44:10
that's kind of a big deal to them to
00:44:12
start something like that like I can
00:44:13
preserve we get a whole lot of apples I
00:44:15
know how to preserve them um so yeah
00:44:18
skills like that I am grateful for
00:44:19
skills yeah yeah they are you I suppose
00:44:21
Elijah's got the the men's life skills
00:44:24
yeah like he knows how to connect a car
00:44:26
radio
00:44:29
okay so um yes so so when did so you
00:44:32
were a few years older than him y so
00:44:36
according to um escaping Utopia you at
00:44:38
the age to get married so you you were
00:44:40
quite late though right like 20 21 22 2
00:44:43
why so old um oh because they were
00:44:46
saving me for Elijah now I'm just joking
00:44:48
that I don't like maybe right so they
00:44:51
just decided like in New early 26 ready
00:44:53
for marriage and there were two guys who
00:44:54
is the what what was the story of the
00:44:56
other guy yeah do and do you regret
00:44:58
saying this oh no no there's two two
00:45:01
guys that were deemed um suitable
00:45:03
candidates there's Elijah yeah um
00:45:05
there's another guy that gave you the
00:45:06
ick oh the BG
00:45:07
[Laughter]
00:45:09
I um what was what was
00:45:13
um you were real vocal about this and I
00:45:16
thought I wonder if still does sometimes
00:45:19
sometimes on this podcast I I'll say
00:45:20
things or and I end up with like a
00:45:22
vulnerability hangover or an honesty
00:45:24
hangover and I when I watched that I
00:45:25
thought I wonder if she like regret
00:45:27
saying that but no no I don't regret
00:45:29
saying it why what what was ay about the
00:45:31
other guy
00:45:33
everything okay right so so so it was
00:45:36
Elijah what was um when did you first
00:45:38
know to H like did you guys sort of grow
00:45:39
up together oh we grew up together yeah
00:45:41
I was really good friends actually with
00:45:43
uh his older sister and so when um like
00:45:48
early days when we lived at Spring Bank
00:45:49
before the community was all shifted
00:45:51
over to glor Val um we lived in the same
00:45:55
building called The Big House family and
00:45:57
his family and some other families as
00:45:59
well and so I spent a lot of time with
00:46:02
their family just yeah I mean I could
00:46:05
have almost thought that they were my
00:46:06
siblings or my cousins just the way we
00:46:08
grew up um and then I mean I didn't
00:46:13
think of him like that until I was
00:46:14
probably around 20 um
00:46:18
like think that I could you know
00:46:20
potentially marry him or liked him but
00:46:22
um yeah before that I just got on really
00:46:25
well with their family and um spend a
00:46:28
lot of time with them yeah and then um
00:46:32
yeah in escaping Utopia we can see some
00:46:34
footage of your your wedding um how do
00:46:36
you how do you feel when you see that
00:46:38
now I don't really like to watch it yeah
00:46:42
yeah yeah that you know you're saying
00:46:43
before about the vulner vulnerabil
00:46:46
vulnerability I can't even talk here
00:46:48
that one um that's probably something
00:46:51
that I have a little bit of a like oh
00:46:52
should I put that out there um why why
00:46:55
is that
00:46:58
because it's embarrassing about all the
00:46:59
stuff about the Seal of a woman or yeah
00:47:01
I think so yeah and it just yeah yeah
00:47:04
that's that's kind of ay that's yeah it
00:47:06
is very yeah but then I mean I know why
00:47:10
we allowed it to be put out there
00:47:12
because it's an important part of um
00:47:15
showing the truth of the place but yeah
00:47:17
I mean I yeah it's not something that I
00:47:20
like I just sit down and like ah I want
00:47:22
to relax I'm G to pop our wedding video
00:47:25
on so at at the at the time when you're
00:47:28
getting married and you're in glor of
00:47:29
valy and that that speech is going on
00:47:31
about you know God's special gift for
00:47:33
man as the Seal of a woman but it's
00:47:34
talking about the hman right is that
00:47:36
what it's yeah yeah yeah are you
00:47:37
embarrassed at the time oh absolutely
00:47:39
yeah don't was she weren't there was she
00:47:41
could hide under a rock yeah absolutely
00:47:45
and then and then you go away to
00:47:46
consumate your wedding and everyone
00:47:47
knows yeah everyone knows that's what
00:47:49
you've gone yeah yeah yes and then when
00:47:51
you come back he run like cheers you
00:47:53
collaps
00:47:55
and have you you guys um yeah it's
00:47:58
that's that's embarrassing oh yeah I
00:48:00
mean it's very private and personal yeah
00:48:02
I mean that's probably the the biggest
00:48:05
regret I have is that we had a wedding
00:48:06
in there not that we married obviously
00:48:10
but I just wish that the wedding day
00:48:12
what wasn't what it was but can't can't
00:48:15
go back and change it now will you do
00:48:17
you think you'll have a like a renewal
00:48:18
one day potentially yeah I think that'd
00:48:20
be really cool Elijah's really up for
00:48:22
parties so if I if I sell it to as a big
00:48:25
party yeah
00:48:27
right so so so you guys are together in
00:48:29
there and you both from what I can
00:48:32
gather um you both seem like Square pigs
00:48:34
and round holes and that you're both
00:48:36
sort of disruptors and um I don't know
00:48:39
but I suppose by glor state is like
00:48:41
troublemakers but you know yeah so what
00:48:43
sort of conversations are you guys
00:48:44
having in private um I'll just I think I
00:48:48
should mention that I actually grew up a
00:48:50
really good glory of Val girl like I
00:48:52
didn't want to be a disruptor I didn't
00:48:54
want to be noticed I wanted to do all
00:48:56
the right things things and that was
00:48:58
primarily because my family was low in
00:49:00
the hierarchy scale and so was Elijah's
00:49:03
and so we both
00:49:05
um we both were quite intentional about
00:49:08
being good people within the community
00:49:10
even though Elijah collected car
00:49:11
connected car radios um he got away with
00:49:14
a little bit more than I did but um I
00:49:17
think
00:49:18
um what happened was when we got married
00:49:22
we both were trustworthy to each other
00:49:26
and you are encouraged um and taught and
00:49:30
um made to actually report on each other
00:49:33
but we didn't do that and so we had a
00:49:37
relationship where we could talk to each
00:49:39
other and share our um and the most yeah
00:49:43
fears concerns and things that were
00:49:45
worrying to us and so that gave us a
00:49:47
security with each other and and even
00:49:50
the ability to have those conversations
00:49:52
whereas beforehand everything that I had
00:49:54
concerns about I thought it was only me
00:49:57
and I thought there was something wrong
00:49:58
with me and if I said something I would
00:50:01
have been the one in trouble so um you
00:50:03
keep all that to yourself but um between
00:50:06
the both of us we um we a safe place for
00:50:09
each other so
00:50:12
yeah W this is this is so much to take
00:50:15
in like it's fascinating and it's
00:50:17
intriguing but it's so much so there's a
00:50:19
lot of married couples there where if if
00:50:20
someone says to their husband or wife uh
00:50:24
this doesn't seem right the other person
00:50:26
will like shut down or report on them
00:50:28
both yeah shut it down and report on
00:50:29
them yeah so there's kind of no place
00:50:32
for a meaningful and a real relationship
00:50:35
within that environment even between
00:50:38
friends um or siblings parents yeah
00:50:43
they've taken that all
00:50:44
away so you just can't trust anyone no
00:50:47
you
00:50:48
can't so um take us back to that period
00:50:52
cuz I'm guessing it wasn't a day or a
00:50:53
moment but that period where everything
00:50:55
imp imploded and Elijah approached
00:50:58
hopeful so hopeful is like the boss the
00:51:00
big boss yeah yeah yeah he's the big
00:51:02
boss so you guys must you guys talked
00:51:04
about that for what days weeks months
00:51:07
months months before um and we actually
00:51:11
uh yeah probably even nearly a year
00:51:13
before we had been um having discussions
00:51:16
like this um and then so over time we
00:51:19
had compiled just we had questions and
00:51:22
so we compiled them into a list and we
00:51:24
spent the week before approached hopeful
00:51:28
um not eating so we 4 days before we
00:51:32
fasted and prayed um and that was
00:51:35
because well we wanted to make sure that
00:51:40
we weren't just being kind of cocky
00:51:42
young people that thought they knew
00:51:44
everything um and we really wanted to
00:51:48
understand even ourselves why we had the
00:51:51
questions and really focus on that so we
00:51:53
decided not to eat for a few days um and
00:51:56
then we actually both went together to
00:51:59
Hopeful and told him we had some
00:52:00
questions and he told me I needed to
00:52:03
leave cuz I was a woman and I had no
00:52:05
right to ask him questions um and he
00:52:09
took Elijah off in the car
00:52:13
and um I think it was around like maybe
00:52:17
3:00 in the afternoon because I know I
00:52:19
went and picked up the kids shortly
00:52:20
afterwards from uh
00:52:22
preschool and then Elijah didn't come
00:52:25
back for ages um probably was a couple
00:52:28
of hours later and he came to the room
00:52:30
and I said how did that go um and he
00:52:33
said oh well I guess you could say good
00:52:36
cuz hopeful didn't yell at me but he
00:52:38
also didn't say anything a lot and he
00:52:41
told me I was wrong a few times but he
00:52:43
didn't really say much um and then we
00:52:45
were kind of like oh where to from here
00:52:48
you know like like a stalemate yeah what
00:52:50
what do we do now and then while we were
00:52:53
having this conversation a leader came
00:52:55
to our room and told Elijah he had to
00:52:57
come to a meeting um and so he went to
00:53:01
this meeting and then I took the kids to
00:53:04
dinner so three kids under five yeah
00:53:08
three yeah yeah yeah yeah
00:53:10
um uh so you took them to dinner took
00:53:13
them to dinner and then came back put
00:53:15
them to bed um did all the normal like
00:53:19
helped with the dishes and that sort of
00:53:21
thing and then he still wasn't back um
00:53:24
and then it would have been like nearly
00:53:26
probably 10:00 and I I mean I was
00:53:29
concerned but then at the same time it
00:53:32
not entirely unusual for him to not come
00:53:34
home at that time cuz I thought maybe he
00:53:35
had gone out back out to the farm or
00:53:38
something like that you don't have
00:53:38
phones you don't have any means of
00:53:40
communication so it's yeah it wasn't
00:53:42
entirely unusual but I I was a little
00:53:44
bit you know wondering where he was um
00:53:48
and then two
00:53:49
leaders just kind of burst into my room
00:53:53
um and said you need to put
00:53:56
um a change of clothes and aijah
00:53:59
toothbrush in this bag he's
00:54:03
left and I can still remember that um I
00:54:07
guess I said to
00:54:09
them that can't be right he wouldn't
00:54:12
leave me and the kids here and they said
00:54:16
yeah he told us that he doesn't love you
00:54:19
he doesn't want to be married to you and
00:54:21
he has already left the
00:54:24
property um
00:54:28
yeah kind of that was that for me you
00:54:33
um you know that that's [ __ ] though
00:54:36
way I knew I knew that it was but here's
00:54:40
these men leaders that I have trusted
00:54:44
with my whole life my whole life and
00:54:48
thought that they were called of God
00:54:49
thought that they knew everything um and
00:54:52
so I guess I was just really confused
00:54:57
um and that
00:55:00
started uh I guess a roller coaster for
00:55:03
me where I didn't know this was
00:55:07
happening but
00:55:08
um I couldn't sleep I couldn't eat and I
00:55:13
couldn't think and I felt like I was a a
00:55:17
wooden block which I don't even know how
00:55:19
to describe it but it was like I wasn't
00:55:21
a human anymore I think I know what you
00:55:23
mean just like a like a living corpse in
00:55:25
a way yeah
00:55:30
yeah
00:55:32
sorry oh that's
00:55:35
terrible
00:55:37
um so then when do you hear from Elijah
00:55:41
um H how could how could he reach out to
00:55:43
you even if he wanted to do you have
00:55:45
access to a phone or no no I don't have
00:55:47
access to a phone I mean there are
00:55:49
phones in the host but to have any
00:55:51
access you have to ring through the main
00:55:54
office and then who was I going to ring
00:55:56
anyway um yeah and anyway I did I asked
00:56:01
the leaders if I could contact him some
00:56:04
way and they kept saying no um and then
00:56:09
they
00:56:09
sent um the woman whose
00:56:13
husbands had left to come and talk to me
00:56:17
um and so that went kind of it was a
00:56:21
whole day and the first one came and she
00:56:25
actually came into my room and I she
00:56:26
never knew that her husband had left cuz
00:56:28
he had come back um that was the first I
00:56:30
knew of it and she she came in and she
00:56:33
was like right let's go through the
00:56:35
drawers and the photo album and we're
00:56:37
going to get rid of all Elijah's clothes
00:56:39
and
00:56:40
photos and I I just said I said no and
00:56:44
she said but that's what you need to do
00:56:46
cuz you don't love him anymore he's gone
00:56:48
against the church and you don't love
00:56:49
him anymore and I can remember just
00:56:51
having this like but I do but I do love
00:56:53
him um and then
00:56:57
yeah the other two came and they both
00:56:59
spent a few hours with me telling me I
00:57:01
was doing the right thing staying there
00:57:02
and protecting the children from hell
00:57:04
and my husband was um a deceiver and the
00:57:08
devil had used him to try and convince
00:57:10
me to um go to the world and um and then
00:57:14
actually the last woman who talked to me
00:57:18
I had a reasonably good relationship
00:57:21
with already um and worked with her a
00:57:23
lot and I said to her near the end of
00:57:26
the conversation I said I just want to
00:57:27
know one thing can you answer this
00:57:30
question honestly for me and she said
00:57:33
yes and I said do you regret not leaving
00:57:36
with your
00:57:37
husband and she said every
00:57:42
day
00:57:45
um and I and when she left I remember
00:57:48
thinking I don't want to be
00:57:50
50 and regretting every day of my
00:57:54
life and so so then I went to the
00:57:57
leaders again and said I need to talk to
00:58:00
Elijah and can I ring
00:58:04
them
00:58:05
yeah so um yeah they decided that they
00:58:10
would take me to see him so all the
00:58:13
leaders and me and a van um and I didn't
00:58:17
know where we were going but when we got
00:58:20
there I knew they had lied to me because
00:58:23
it was just one of the farm houses that
00:58:25
was about 20 minutes minutes drive from
00:58:28
glory
00:58:29
veale and I remember walking in and
00:58:31
Elijah was surprised to see me and I
00:58:35
went straight and gave him a hug um and
00:58:38
we got pried apart by the leaders and
00:58:42
made sit on opposite sides of the room
00:58:46
um
00:58:48
and they just ran the whole
00:58:52
conversation and I didn't even get to
00:58:54
talk to them and they basically were
00:58:56
deciding whether he had repented or not
00:58:58
for asking questions and decided he
00:59:01
hadn't and so physically dragged me out
00:59:03
of there put me back in the van and we
00:59:06
went home and then physically dragged
00:59:08
you out of there so you didn't want to
00:59:10
no I didn't want to leave I wanted to
00:59:12
stay there and talk to
00:59:13
Elijah um I mean there's quite a few
00:59:17
that kind of went on for a while similar
00:59:20
situations um and then one of the times
00:59:23
he just he had enough and he biked up um
00:59:27
he started sneaking in at night he got
00:59:30
actually I told there this the other day
00:59:32
he got shot at one night um when he was
00:59:35
sneaking in um but we got to have a
00:59:37
couple of conversations and then I think
00:59:40
he realized that unless he apologized
00:59:43
that he wasn't going to get back with me
00:59:46
and the kids and I wasn't at the point
00:59:49
where I could say I can leave cuz I
00:59:52
still thought that I had to be in glor
00:59:54
to be saved um right okay so you you
00:59:58
weren't like emotionally quite ready to
00:59:59
leave no I wasn't yeah yeah um and they
01:00:03
did eventually let them back in what why
01:00:06
why weren't you emotionally ready to
01:00:07
leave then like after after after all
01:00:09
the lies and all the the [ __ ] and
01:00:11
the bullying and the yelling I think
01:00:14
it's cuz it's just so ingrained in you
01:00:16
that this is the place that God has put
01:00:19
you this is where you were born this is
01:00:21
where God wants you and this is the only
01:00:22
place you can live out your life to get
01:00:25
to heaven and it um and the leaders are
01:00:28
God's Advocates they are put in place by
01:00:31
God to lead you and guide you so you
01:00:33
have to listen to them and it's just so
01:00:35
deeply ingrained um as well as then I
01:00:38
have obviously my kids and I felt
01:00:40
responsible for them and I thought well
01:00:42
you know if I leave then I'm taking them
01:00:46
to hell as well so then there's that
01:00:48
kind of the mother maternal Instinct
01:00:50
that goes I need to protect them yeah so
01:00:53
you wonder if you're doing the right
01:00:54
thing for your kids and so that's why I
01:00:56
to like I was so confused because I knew
01:00:58
that I didn't want to raise them in
01:00:59
gloral but I didn't know that I could
01:01:01
raise them outside gloral and still
01:01:03
raise them as good human beings they had
01:01:06
the opportunity to get to heaven do you
01:01:08
know so um I wasn't there yet uh he came
01:01:13
back um someone very close to us asked
01:01:16
them to help them
01:01:19
leave and because they didn't want to
01:01:21
marry the person they had been told to
01:01:23
marry um and so Elijah helped them
01:01:28
leave
01:01:29
and then he that kind of came to light
01:01:33
to the leadership they found out that it
01:01:35
was him that had um helped and so he was
01:01:39
called into another meeting at that
01:01:41
point
01:01:43
um and we and then I was called in later
01:01:48
maybe a couple of hours later after he'd
01:01:49
already been in there and I can still
01:01:51
remember walking in and he was sitting
01:01:53
there with his arms folded with the
01:01:54
staunchest look on his face like not
01:01:57
being budged and um they were just and I
01:02:01
went straight and St beside me again
01:02:03
they got me and moved me and you know
01:02:05
you can't sit beside him he's a heathen
01:02:06
he's a heretic um and that meeting was
01:02:10
ugly that was uh a brutal and ugly
01:02:13
meeting where they were trying to force
01:02:14
him to fall on his knees and kiss
01:02:17
hopefuls feet and he wouldn't so they
01:02:19
physically left at him up cheer and all
01:02:22
and put him in a truck and drove him off
01:02:24
um
01:02:27
these stories are outrageous yeah
01:02:29
they're almost hard to believe
01:02:32
yeah it's absurd I mean and there's
01:02:35
there's even in telling you there's bits
01:02:37
that I'm missing that are similar the
01:02:41
same kind of thing same situation um
01:02:43
just repeats of that and you'd think you
01:02:46
know like and I even look back and I say
01:02:47
why did it take me so long
01:02:51
to understand that I could leave um but
01:02:54
yeah maybe I can get it though I
01:02:56
understand it if you're born in there
01:02:57
and it's all you know I can understand
01:02:59
also also just the fear of the unknown
01:03:01
you know there's um ironically there's a
01:03:04
saying which is probably not perfect for
01:03:06
this case but better the devil you
01:03:09
know which is exactly yeah anyway yeah
01:03:13
so when did the CU in um escaping Utopia
01:03:16
there's a scene in there where you're
01:03:17
talking about um you and Elijah and
01:03:19
getting out of there and you end up in a
01:03:21
small plane being taken somewhere you
01:03:23
get really emotional talking about this
01:03:25
was that around this time yeah it is so
01:03:28
this time that they physically put him
01:03:29
in the truck um I knew that they had
01:03:33
obviously kicked him out this is what
01:03:35
this is the terminology we used as
01:03:37
people got kicked out if they didn't um
01:03:40
submit to the leaders and um so again I
01:03:44
asked if I could talk to him and I they
01:03:46
said I could call him and fervent
01:03:48
steadfast U one of the leaders wrote um
01:03:52
down on a piece of paper what I could
01:03:53
say to him and he also pulled out my
01:03:57
marriage commitment which in there is a
01:03:59
paragraph saying how that if my husband
01:04:02
ever disagreed with the leaders that I
01:04:05
was not bound to be married to him
01:04:07
anymore like our marriage was ended um
01:04:10
and so he fervent rang
01:04:14
Elijah and I had all the leaders
01:04:16
standing around behind me I was sitting
01:04:17
at the office desk and the first thing I
01:04:20
said was to Elijah I love you and fent
01:04:23
just reached over and hung up the phone
01:04:25
um and then I got a big talking to her
01:04:28
about you know stick to the stick to the
01:04:30
script if you want to talk to him say
01:04:32
what's on there and that happened maybe
01:04:34
three or four times um and Elijah
01:04:37
actually said to me on the last phone
01:04:39
call he said the leaders are listening
01:04:41
aren't they and I said yes and he said
01:04:44
we'll meet at the River tomorrow at
01:04:46
2:00 um and so we hung up and so the
01:04:51
next day came and I went and asked Mom
01:04:56
if she could drive me down to the river
01:04:58
because I'd been putting the baby to bed
01:05:00
and I'd run late and didn't have time to
01:05:04
walk all the way down to the river which
01:05:06
was kilometers away um maybe five four
01:05:09
or 5Ks away um and so I asked Mom if she
01:05:13
could drive me down and I don't know if
01:05:15
she went and told the leaders or if she
01:05:17
just went to ask for a vehicle because
01:05:19
she didn't have access to a vehicle
01:05:20
anyway and she had to go and ask for a
01:05:22
key but um two leaders came back with
01:05:25
her
01:05:26
and said that they would drive me down
01:05:28
um and so I got in the car and when we
01:05:33
got to not the river to the dairy shed
01:05:36
they pulled in and there would have been
01:05:37
50 men and maybe 10 Vehicles all parked
01:05:40
around the dairy shed and standing
01:05:42
around
01:05:43
Elijah
01:05:45
um and so this conversation that we
01:05:47
thought we were going to actually get to
01:05:49
talk to each other didn't go well um and
01:05:54
there was uh a lot of violence and
01:05:57
involved in that physical violence
01:06:00
physical violence um and they tried to
01:06:04
run him over with a
01:06:09
car and then they took me away
01:06:12
again and they said that they would talk
01:06:14
to him hopeful said they talk to him and
01:06:17
that he and hopeful promised me that he
01:06:19
would bring Elijah back
01:06:21
up to me that afternoon
01:06:26
and
01:06:26
so I went back up and it was meant to be
01:06:29
a celebration night for hopeful and they
01:06:33
sit up a throne in the dining
01:06:37
hall oh they'd set up a throne in the
01:06:39
dining hall for hopeful and it was this
01:06:42
big um meant to be a celebration for our
01:06:45
leader and how good he was and amazing
01:06:48
and I was getting the kids ready for
01:06:50
dinner and then uh a woman and one of
01:06:53
the leaders came just bursting into my
01:06:56
room and said that I needed to hide the
01:06:59
kids and that's I can't even remember if
01:07:02
this is in the documentary um but yeah I
01:07:04
heard the kids and we were in the attic
01:07:07
for probably nearly an hour um and I
01:07:11
couldn't hear details of what was going
01:07:14
on outside I could just hear a lot of
01:07:17
commotion um and yelling and raised
01:07:20
voices and then hopeful came to the adct
01:07:24
and he said to me you need to come and
01:07:27
um talk to your husband he said he's
01:07:30
brought the police he's brought s he's
01:07:32
bought um TV Crews here and um you need
01:07:38
to go and tell him to leave and he's
01:07:40
gone mad um I don't know it was yeah and
01:07:44
oh he said sorry prior to the meeting
01:07:46
too he said that they had um caught him
01:07:49
an interfere with another woman in Dixon
01:07:52
Park like I mean all these things now
01:07:54
are just being trying to make him look
01:07:56
bad to me um
01:08:00
but yeah so I came down and this is a
01:08:03
big regret I have um I saw him I was
01:08:06
standing on the balcony and he was down
01:08:09
in the playground um and the whole like
01:08:14
everybody from the community was
01:08:16
surrounding the playground he was on top
01:08:19
of the
01:08:20
slide there were men up there with him
01:08:22
trying to pull him down covering his
01:08:24
face covering his mouth
01:08:26
um he was yelling he was wild and I've
01:08:30
never I'd never seen him like that
01:08:32
before and I thought I mean I remember
01:08:33
thinking oh he must have gone mad
01:08:37
um but yeah anyway and I told him he
01:08:40
needed to leave um and then pretty much
01:08:43
as soon as I said that I got hopeful tap
01:08:46
me on the shoulder and said come and hop
01:08:48
in the car and we'll just drive around
01:08:50
until it's calmed down and so I hopped
01:08:52
in the car and then he said now get in
01:08:54
the plane
01:08:56
we'll just fly around till it's calmed
01:08:57
down and that was me gone with the kids
01:09:00
for six
01:09:02
weeks yeah yeah what was what was the
01:09:04
motivation of that um did they think you
01:09:07
like you were potentially a bad apple
01:09:10
being in glory of veale or was it that
01:09:12
Elijah could find you there it was it
01:09:14
was to stop Elijah from having any
01:09:17
opportunity to talk to me so like a
01:09:20
hideout house for you yeah it was yeah
01:09:22
yeah
01:09:26
oh jeez this is it's a lot yeah how's
01:09:30
how's you I mean you I know you had some
01:09:32
mental health struggles over the years
01:09:34
you mentioned earlier that um there was
01:09:36
a time where you contemplated taking
01:09:37
your own life in there um how's your
01:09:39
mental health been since you left um you
01:09:42
good you got any PTSD or anything have
01:09:43
you had any counseling I've definitely
01:09:45
had counseling um yeah I haven't had
01:09:49
anything I guess diagnosed with ptcd I'd
01:09:53
say I definitely have it um just the
01:09:56
research I've done I've definitely
01:09:57
struggled with my mental health and had
01:09:59
some pretty low um periods but then um
01:10:03
good as well and I guess learned some
01:10:06
tools along the way and and through
01:10:08
therapy and um that sort of thing just
01:10:11
even understanding what of my beliefs
01:10:14
are lies and what's the truth has been a
01:10:16
really big um help to me uh
01:10:21
yeah what about the um what about the
01:10:23
kids the older kids how are they oh
01:10:25
they're good they're real good I think
01:10:28
what was great was that they were young
01:10:30
enough when we left to not be um too
01:10:33
detrimentally affected um even though my
01:10:37
three-year-old still knew um when we
01:10:40
left she would cry at night and say I
01:10:43
can't be in this house Mom you need to
01:10:44
take me back to gloral because God's not
01:10:46
here um and I'd never told her that but
01:10:49
that I think shows that how young that
01:10:52
is ingrained into them from
01:10:57
wow Jes Elijah right you guys are just
01:10:59
meant to be together yeah we are there
01:11:02
was no tearing you apart yeah they got
01:11:04
that arranged marriage
01:11:05
right how's how he's been through a lot
01:11:08
as well he's he's he's worn a lot of a
01:11:11
lot of this how's he is he good at
01:11:13
talking about things
01:11:15
or
01:11:17
um he is sometimes and he's been yeah he
01:11:21
he is yeah he's a very positive person
01:11:24
and he's is a very grateful person and
01:11:27
so he I guess that's how he um has coped
01:11:30
and carried on as he's always looking
01:11:33
forward he he doesn't like to look at
01:11:35
the past which um I guess could
01:11:38
sometimes um I can see why it's hard
01:11:40
affects him but but yeah we have we have
01:11:43
great conversations he has some really
01:11:45
good um mates and mentors and yeah um
01:11:50
yeah he's just he is a very positive
01:11:51
person extremely yeah yeah
01:11:57
yeah I'm sorry you went through all
01:11:59
this yeah it's not it's not your fault
01:12:02
you shouldn't be saying sorry I know no
01:12:04
but it's just it's heartbreaking can't
01:12:06
change it now but um yeah I guess that's
01:12:10
a a part of what fuels me to keep going
01:12:13
so that things changes changes for
01:12:15
people still in there yeah you regret
01:12:17
not getting out
01:12:18
sooner um I guess but I don't look back
01:12:22
and go um
01:12:25
oh I should have got out sooner because
01:12:27
then I'd be a hidden now it just it is
01:12:30
what it is and I can't change the past I
01:12:33
can only use that to make me a better
01:12:35
person now and so that's what I focus on
01:12:38
yeah there I mean obviously there's
01:12:40
there's age differences but are there
01:12:42
any other sort of noticeable differences
01:12:44
between the kids that were born in glory
01:12:46
Val and the kids that were born on the
01:12:48
outside world yeah we've definitely
01:12:49
parented differently have you um yeah
01:12:52
yeah and and we talk about that better
01:12:55
Fe bit and even just um noticing how say
01:13:00
our younger three are way more free
01:13:03
thinkers or like the older ones are
01:13:06
definitely have come a long way but when
01:13:08
they were little like what we restricted
01:13:10
them from doing and thinking um and then
01:13:13
seeing the young kids just flourish that
01:13:15
much younger and really just we're happy
01:13:18
to see who who they are what their
01:13:21
personalities are and not crush anything
01:13:23
whereas with the older ones we we were
01:13:26
Our intention was to break their will
01:13:28
for God so um that's what we were taught
01:13:32
and how we were taught to parent which
01:13:33
is just fully messed up but
01:13:37
um yeah we definitely parent differently
01:13:40
and and even I like look at the cids and
01:13:43
they would not survive in glory of H
01:13:45
they
01:13:46
like you can go from Glory of L to the
01:13:49
outside world you can't go the other way
01:13:50
around no my 9-year-old could be kicked
01:13:52
out like uh where's the McDonald's
01:13:54
around here yeah yeah can you remember
01:13:56
that the older kids when they had their
01:13:57
first happy meal and things oh yeah I
01:14:00
can yeah just over the moon and it's
01:14:03
good though because they they can be
01:14:06
really appreciative of stuff too and
01:14:08
especially now too because the older
01:14:09
ones can see the difference um and they
01:14:12
can see what we came from and and I mean
01:14:16
you know people out here sometimes say
01:14:17
oh we use the police to threaten our
01:14:19
kids you know like if they're being real
01:14:20
naughty we'll say I'll call the cops you
01:14:22
know and I'll just say I take you back
01:14:24
to glor
01:14:31
it's good that you can laugh about this
01:14:33
you get a great laugh by the way thanks
01:14:35
it's uh it's wicked in the best possible
01:14:38
way hey um I put on um my Instagram
01:14:40
story that that you're coming over and
01:14:43
there's a bunch of questions just random
01:14:45
questions um some of some of them quite
01:14:47
light some of them are quite serious um
01:14:49
oh a name that came up earlier actually
01:14:51
someone wanted to know what happened to
01:14:53
Dove love
01:14:55
uh well she is married to watchful
01:14:56
steadfast so she is now Dove steadfast
01:14:59
which just doesn't have quite the same
01:15:00
ring to it as Dove love how is she about
01:15:02
the same age as you or no no she's quite
01:15:04
a bit younger actually yeah um but yeah
01:15:07
she's still in there and married and I
01:15:09
think maybe got six kids yeah jeez she
01:15:13
she would have done well as an
01:15:14
influencer on the outside world she
01:15:15
could have made some good
01:15:17
money um H someone said no question I
01:15:20
just want to say I follow Rosanna on
01:15:22
Instagram and I think she's incredible
01:15:24
oh that's lovely thank you yeah you are
01:15:26
incredible an
01:15:28
Elijah are you proud of yourself you
01:15:30
feel proud of yourself or are you
01:15:31
because your religious belief you're not
01:15:32
allowed to sort of uh feel proud of
01:15:34
yourself I don't I don't think it's got
01:15:35
anything to do with religious belief
01:15:37
it's more that um I just feel like I've
01:15:41
done what needs to be done and I think
01:15:43
there's so much more to do and so I
01:15:45
think uh when people say you should be
01:15:48
proud of yourself I'm like oh I'm not
01:15:49
doing enough um so it's hard for me to I
01:15:51
guess accept that as a compliment just
01:15:54
because I feel like this so much more I
01:15:55
could be doing or should be doing um but
01:15:58
yeah I am like if I look back um and
01:16:01
even if I imagine myself as a
01:16:03
15-year-old girl she's proud of me yeah
01:16:08
um that's a cool thing to say so it's
01:16:11
really cool I'm really happy with the
01:16:13
decisions I've made yeah it's really
01:16:15
powerful yeah and um yeah another thing
01:16:18
that's probably with highlighting I feel
01:16:20
like it's easier I'm sure it's still
01:16:22
bloody difficult but it's easier to
01:16:24
leave leave leave Glory Val than what
01:16:26
it's ever been thanks to the work like
01:16:27
you guys what you guys are doing on that
01:16:28
trust you're involved with and um the
01:16:31
community support um obviously it was a
01:16:33
lot harder 11 years ago than what it is
01:16:35
now oh yeah like jumping off a jumping
01:16:37
off a cliff in the dark basically much
01:16:38
so yeah yeah so that's something to be
01:16:41
immensely proud of um thank you someone
01:16:44
on Instagram says um does she think
01:16:46
Glory of a should be closed
01:16:48
down that's a really tough question um
01:16:52
I'll say this I don't think it should
01:16:55
carry on how it is it's an unsafe
01:16:57
Community um closing it down overnight I
01:17:01
don't think's the answer either um you
01:17:05
think you've got 550 people there that
01:17:08
believe this is where they are supposed
01:17:11
to live how they're supposed to live how
01:17:13
they're going to get to heaven and if
01:17:14
that's taken away from them you just
01:17:16
look at the absolute Mental Health
01:17:18
crisis you've got
01:17:21
um and I don't think we set up or
01:17:23
prepared for that and I think it's a lot
01:17:25
more complex than maybe the general um
01:17:27
New Zealander understands and that is
01:17:30
because their everyday life is tied in
01:17:32
with their faith going to work in the
01:17:35
kitchen is spiritual and so their
01:17:38
eternity is based on how they're living
01:17:40
and working so it's a very complex
01:17:42
situation a lot needs to change and it
01:17:44
needs to change now but I don't think
01:17:47
just shutting it down overnight is the
01:17:50
the right answer
01:17:52
yeah anything on escaping Utopia that
01:17:54
they
01:17:55
missed oh they missed a lot but I think
01:17:58
the general picture they've put that
01:18:00
across amazingly um there's obviously
01:18:03
wee bits of people's stories which you
01:18:05
know did if you did a story on Theo that
01:18:08
would have taken up the whole
01:18:09
documentary you know her life and
01:18:11
getting to where she is same with me um
01:18:14
and Eli that would have taken the whole
01:18:16
documentary so they've done a really
01:18:18
good job of kind of showing um the
01:18:20
beginning to current times um in the
01:18:23
general picture but you know there's
01:18:24
obvious
01:18:25
bits that are missing yeah there timing
01:18:27
restraints I guess isn't there yeah um
01:18:30
at what age did Rosie first get the
01:18:31
feeling that something wasn't right I'd
01:18:34
say I knew from a
01:18:36
5-year-old I knew in my gut um really
01:18:39
that something wasn't right but I
01:18:41
thought it was me um and I'd say I knew
01:18:45
that right throughout my life there but
01:18:49
it wasn't until after I left that I
01:18:51
understood that I was right for feeling
01:18:54
that way
01:18:55
um yeah so so so as a 5-year-old do you
01:18:58
say anything to your parents and and
01:19:00
they they they tell you off for having
01:19:02
these thoughts or do you just keep the
01:19:03
thoughts to yourself or you keep your
01:19:04
thoughts to yourself because even at
01:19:06
that age if you say something you're the
01:19:08
bad one and you're in trouble um and and
01:19:11
getting labeled as a 5-year-old or even
01:19:14
you know as a 10-year-old whatever age
01:19:17
you are as someone that questions
01:19:19
Authority or someone that has if you're
01:19:22
a girl if you've been abused if that is
01:19:24
widely known your whole future is
01:19:27
destroyed within that community so it's
01:19:30
just not worth saying
01:19:32
anything in your mind
01:19:36
yeah oh that's terrible yeah so you're
01:19:39
the victim of abuse but yeah somehow
01:19:41
it's your fault oh it is your fault not
01:19:44
just somehow like within that
01:19:45
environment there's no question that
01:19:48
even you as a seven-year-old girl if
01:19:50
you've been abused it's your fault well
01:19:53
and that you you've done something to
01:19:54
provoke it or bring it on to your yeah
01:19:56
you you've done something to provoke it
01:19:58
you've put yourself in a position so
01:20:00
they used to say this thing all the time
01:20:02
you were in the wrong place at the wrong
01:20:03
time and if you'd been in the right
01:20:05
place doing the right thing at the right
01:20:06
time that wouldn't have happened to you
01:20:09
um but and you know we joked before
01:20:12
about ankles um ankles and elbows yeah
01:20:16
and I think like we can laugh about that
01:20:19
now but it was such a a serious thing
01:20:21
where they're creating a culture that
01:20:24
men and boys think that they can't help
01:20:26
themselves and if the girl's showing off
01:20:28
her ankles or elbows you know rolling up
01:20:31
her sleeves to wash the dishes that
01:20:33
she's tempting them and then it's her
01:20:35
fault if they take advantage of that so
01:20:39
it's really messed up morally in that
01:20:42
way um and leaves kind of no room for
01:20:45
the girl to be um treated then as a
01:20:49
victim that needs support she is the one
01:20:51
at fault yeah well I think maybe the
01:20:54
most alarming thing for me in the
01:20:57
escaping Utopia was um with u Theo who's
01:21:00
sitting here uh towards the end with the
01:21:03
the the Indian guy at the Indian branch
01:21:05
of Glory of veale um basically saying he
01:21:09
he was I don't don't think he knew he
01:21:10
was on camera right no he didn't but
01:21:12
he's basically saying that Indian men
01:21:14
can't help themselves and yeah which was
01:21:17
just alarming yeah it was alarming
01:21:19
terrifying
01:21:21
actually um how can we help and get more
01:21:24
people free you're a brave Woman by the
01:21:26
way thank you um how can we help I think
01:21:32
we
01:21:34
can't we can't forget um about them and
01:21:38
you know how we're saying it' be easy
01:21:39
for me to walk away that's not the
01:21:41
answer um if you have anything to do
01:21:43
with people that leave the best thing
01:21:46
you can do is be a good person be kind
01:21:50
um and show them that there is um true
01:21:55
unconditional love on the outside um
01:21:58
that is the most supportive way you can
01:22:00
be to an individual um obviously there's
01:22:03
other ways you can help and that is by
01:22:05
supporting the trust um and the Trust
01:22:07
website has multiple ways that that is
01:22:09
available to do things when that's
01:22:11
donating clothes if you have it or
01:22:13
donating money um every donation is
01:22:18
we're very grateful for and um that's
01:22:21
that's one way you can help so this is
01:22:23
the trust that you're involved with
01:22:24
you're you're the only former glory of
01:22:25
Our member Elijah and I both on trust
01:22:28
and we are the only former members on
01:22:30
there what's the what's the website uh
01:22:33
it is glor Val l.org maybe NZ okay
01:22:36
that's all right we can we can Google it
01:22:37
glor Val lever and um so the best thing
01:22:40
is mainly
01:22:42
money um not always like obviously when
01:22:46
someone leaves you kind of have those
01:22:47
immediately immediate physical needs you
01:22:50
know you've got to set up a house for
01:22:51
them we do always hold a um a storage
01:22:55
unit of furniture and house supplies um
01:23:00
we always have that ready to go that's
01:23:02
just purely from people's donations um
01:23:05
and then the other thing I guess down
01:23:08
the track that actually they need a lot
01:23:11
of help with what is um finding jobs you
01:23:15
know your CVS setting up bank accounts
01:23:17
and then counseling finding them um a
01:23:21
counselor um schools you know there's
01:23:24
kind of all these practical things that
01:23:27
then the long-term needs are actually
01:23:30
more um mental health and um and
01:23:33
spiritual needs yeah actually we they
01:23:36
sort of touch upon that in um escaping
01:23:38
Utopia is it Boaz yes Bo yeah you see
01:23:42
him and his um wife have recently um
01:23:45
left Glory Val she wasn't on
01:23:47
camera oh that's your sister yeah right
01:23:52
um and you can just see how much they're
01:23:53
struggling and how overwhelmed
01:23:55
I'm not surprised I really felt for them
01:23:56
it's like I find adting hard sometimes
01:23:58
and I've just grown up with this I just
01:24:00
can't imagine the enormity of um you
01:24:03
know just living in that sort of
01:24:04
environment where every minute of the
01:24:06
day is accounted for and you know what
01:24:08
you're doing and you know what your role
01:24:09
is to having having none of that yeah um
01:24:12
yeah and also not knowing how to do any
01:24:14
of that I think I think that's something
01:24:17
that people can really help with
01:24:18
especially if they know if there's
01:24:19
someone in the area that has left um is
01:24:23
actually just
01:24:25
approaching them and
01:24:26
being like someone that they can talk to
01:24:31
um a friend because again you've left
01:24:33
all your friends and family inside you
01:24:35
don't really know people on the outside
01:24:38
um and then just having the confidence
01:24:40
like for me to do my first grocery shop
01:24:43
and use my e postcard for the first time
01:24:46
and it was nerve-wracking and what do
01:24:48
you mean can you can you explain
01:24:50
that well you've never done anything
01:24:52
like that you didn't you don't have been
01:24:54
account well you do you just don't know
01:24:56
you do um and you've never had a phone
01:24:59
or an if postcard and just actually
01:25:01
going through even going through the
01:25:03
grocery store and thinking what do I buy
01:25:05
for my family because I've never shopped
01:25:08
for myself um or for my children um and
01:25:12
then getting to actually pay for it and
01:25:14
thinking oh you know there's so much to
01:25:16
remember do I swipe it how does this
01:25:18
work what's my pen what is a pen you
01:25:22
know just because you're learning so
01:25:24
much in a short amount of time um it's a
01:25:27
lot to deal with yeah so that my first
01:25:28
grocery shop I actually went with uh a
01:25:31
lady who had left before me and she
01:25:33
bought a few things and went in front of
01:25:35
me and um I just watched her and then I
01:25:38
did a few things and yeah she was there
01:25:40
to help me if I needed it had you been
01:25:43
in a grocery store I had I had been in
01:25:45
one before but I had never been um
01:25:48
responsible for purchasing anything in a
01:25:50
grocery store before yes there so many
01:25:52
things like that that would never even
01:25:53
NL people just never even think about
01:25:56
yeah and just little things and kind of
01:25:58
things you take for granted now and even
01:25:59
I do but um yeah it's a big deal when
01:26:02
you have to learn a lot in a short
01:26:04
amount of time yeah what about treats
01:26:06
from the grocery store what what were
01:26:07
you like oh my God this is amazing
01:26:10
Coca-Cola no what uh well I thought
01:26:13
Coca-Cola was bad when we first left
01:26:16
so um but no yeah the treats and the
01:26:20
drinks and I guess too the options are
01:26:22
even overwhelming because you know
01:26:25
there's six different kinds of brown
01:26:27
rice well how do I
01:26:30
choose you go with what it was the the
01:26:32
one card
01:26:33
specie yes exactly yeah um someone
01:26:37
wanted on Instagram are you surprised
01:26:39
how much attention Glory of gets from
01:26:41
the outside in particular with things
01:26:42
like the Christmas
01:26:43
concert the Christmas concert oh the the
01:26:47
um B anal concert but it's not a
01:26:49
Christmas concert okay yeah this has
01:26:50
been a thing that's been on that TV the
01:26:52
propaganda TV series we talked about
01:26:54
where Outsiders are invited once a year
01:26:57
and you you put on a
01:26:59
show I think the ti sort of turned but I
01:27:01
do think I know what this person is
01:27:03
talking about there has always been this
01:27:05
sort of um I don't know this almost like
01:27:07
morbid curiosity or intrigued with
01:27:09
what's happening in Gloria yeah more
01:27:11
kind of a fascination of this strange
01:27:13
group of people over on the coast yeah
01:27:16
and I think I think over the years we've
01:27:17
thought well it's not my S lifestyle but
01:27:19
if they're happy doing it yeah who's to
01:27:21
judge them and then you know as it's
01:27:23
become a Weare thanks to people like you
01:27:25
guys um yeah it's not everything is as
01:27:28
idealistic as what it seems yeah and I
01:27:30
think that's what we've been um I guess
01:27:33
trying to do for years is show that it's
01:27:36
not what everybody thought it was on the
01:27:38
outside but also when you're in there
01:27:41
and people came to the concerts it was
01:27:43
kind of the best time of living in there
01:27:45
because you got to see Outsiders and um
01:27:48
I'm still um in contact with people who
01:27:51
went out of their way at those concerts
01:27:54
to come and talk to me and then when I
01:27:58
left found me and have kept contact up
01:28:01
so I think to make a point here any
01:28:05
interaction you have with someone who's
01:28:07
inside um it's really important how you
01:28:11
um how you are to them your kindness
01:28:14
your generosity your just genuine care
01:28:17
of who they are um and I can tell a
01:28:21
story of um actually at the employment
01:28:23
case
01:28:24
um was towards the end and there was a
01:28:27
girl that I grew up with there was lots
01:28:29
of them there but there was one in
01:28:31
particular that I hadn't seen um in 11
01:28:34
years and I I kind of I went up to her
01:28:38
and I could see she was visibly pregnant
01:28:41
um and I said hi and initially she was
01:28:44
kind of looking everywhere else and was
01:28:46
afraid to be seen talking to me and then
01:28:49
I just said to her um I can see that
01:28:52
you're pregnant congratulations
01:28:54
um how are you and she just burst into
01:28:58
tears and she said no one ever asks me
01:29:02
that and um and I think that is
01:29:08
something like that nobody actually
01:29:10
within the community cares about the
01:29:12
individual that the people aren't valued
01:29:16
and so when we can show that to them
01:29:18
from the outside it is incredibly
01:29:21
meaningful
01:29:24
I love that yeah
01:29:28
um there's a couple more but that um
01:29:32
that just felt like a really good way to
01:29:34
end it actually I think we we will end
01:29:36
it there okay um thank you so much for
01:29:39
your time today oh you're welcome thanks
01:29:42
for having me yeah oh no do you prefer
01:29:44
to be called Rosie or Rosanna um either
01:29:47
or I just I think Rosie has kind of
01:29:50
stuck because um that's pretty much all
01:29:53
I was called unless I was in
01:29:56
trouble it sounds like you were in
01:29:58
trouble a lot towards the end of my time
01:30:01
yeah definitely yes um but yeah so I
01:30:04
think Rosie is just it seems nicer to me
01:30:08
like if someone sees Rosanna I straight
01:30:10
away feel like I'm stood to
01:30:12
attention so yeah is is there anything
01:30:15
um is there anything that you want to
01:30:17
bring up is there anything that I
01:30:18
haven't mentioned today that you were
01:30:20
hoping we would have touched
01:30:22
upon um I don't think so yeah I don't
01:30:25
think so that's cool it's been great to
01:30:27
meet you and um I love the stuff you
01:30:29
share on on Instagram with you and
01:30:31
Elijah and the kids oh thank you thanks
01:30:33
so much for having me Dom I appreciate
01:30:34
it yeah oh no it's really inspirational
01:30:36
this the stuff that you're doing for um
01:30:38
to raise awareness about uh what's going
01:30:41
on what has gone on and um just helping
01:30:44
those that are that are still in there
01:30:45
it's really really cool thank you thanks
01:30:47
so much appreciate it yeah
01:30:51
[Music]
01:30:58
he
01:31:00
[Music]
