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[Music]
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abas naari welcome to my podcast awesome
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man thanks for having me hey mate I I
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first of all I just wanted to um check
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in and um man you've been through a lot
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and I'm sorry for what you've been
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through thanks so much man honestly it's
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uh it's awesome to to share my story and
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to have different listeners every time I
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think we're going to cover quite a bit
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in this chat and uh yeah it'll be a
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really good conversation yeah oh no when
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I said sorry for what you've been
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through I wasn't talking about the stuff
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when you were seven I mean the Crusader
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season
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24 that's a really good start I love you
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know what throw in the deep end you know
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what here's the thing anyone who hates
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the Crusaders all right anyone who hates
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the Crusaders just know we can't win
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every year it's nice every now and then
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just to share the title you know yeah so
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there was a that was a that was a cheap
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way to start you know what people hate
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the Crusaders but you also secretly love
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them yeah oh I know I think it was um
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yeah people got a secret joy out of
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their um demise this year after winning
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six years in a row they're the team that
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people love to hate but it's a dynasty
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you can't argue with it yeah six in a
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row speaking of Crusaders um you you you
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you go way back with Richie moonga you
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you're like childhood friends you lived
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on the same street yeah that's right uh
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I often joke uh kind of half seriously
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you know taught him how to kick and um
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that's my gift to gift to the country n
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just kidding man Rich's really good
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childhood friend grew up on the same
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street as us and um I think once we get
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into my story you'll realize just how
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awesomely small New Zealand is like
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where I come from where he comes from
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growing up on the same street and uh
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it's a pretty cool story for sure yeah
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yeah and you're still friends to this
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day yeah yeah yeah so still in touch um
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and it's uh awesome to see where his his
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life has ended up as well yeah yeah and
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um yeah he's done very well for himself
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um as we all know as uh you have you
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know we you've just flown in from
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Singapore basically come straight from
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the airport to here um you run a couple
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of successful businesses in Wellington
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you got a best selling book um you're a
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smart dude thanks so much man uh and I
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think but I think what makes even more
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remarkable is like the um you know the
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back foot that you started on yeah oh
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honestly one of the awesome things
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that's come out of writing this book has
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been the ability to just share my story
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I'm on the face I'm on the cover of the
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book and whatnot but the number one
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piece of feedback I always get from
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people who've read the book or listened
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to my podcast here is it's just giving
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them an insight into what the refugee
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experience is like like what we went
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through but also what's it like when you
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come to a new country like uh New
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Zealand adapting to a new culture the
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challenges you face so when I share my
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story you could replace me with someone
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coming in from elsewhere as well and
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it's the same thing same struggles you
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start way back at the end of the pack
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and you kind of put your head down and
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get to work and uh you know I've done
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pretty well for myself but it could be
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me it could be anyone else yeah I mean
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what you've done for yourself and and
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actually all your siblings as well and
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your parents it's inspiring um I think
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probably even more not to take anything
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away from you and your siblings but you
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know your parents that's a a different
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all together like arriving in a new
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country basically um control out Delete
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at the age of 30 or 40 however old your
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parents were and starting from scratch
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yeah your dad's got a massive business
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he 20 staff or something yeah yeah yeah
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I think you you hit the nail on the head
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when you're a a refugee or immigrant
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when you come here as a young child
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you're able to just kind of soak things
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up really easily your your brain it's
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like a sponge it soaks things up you're
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able to learn the language pick up the
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culture and the Customs make friends at
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school enroll yourself in the local
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footy club and you're away laughing
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right
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but when you come here in your late 30s
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early 40s whatever you're an adult your
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brain is already hardwired in you're
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kind of set in your ways and then to
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pick up a new language and a new culture
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and at the same time kind of Shed off
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the cloak of your own identity that
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you've built up over the previous
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decades it's a really hard Road you know
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and so adults find that Journey way
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harder but you're right uh I think one
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of the reasons why our community has
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done pretty well is that my parents and
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other family uh leaders within our
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Community have just kind of put their
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head down and said look let's get some
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work done and um our family story The
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you know the the car parts business that
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I talk about in the book that started
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for that's like the the Kiwi dream right
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there man that started off in a little
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shed in MadAss Street in Christ Church
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and and it's grown into this massive car
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parts Import and Export business uh
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based out of Wellington now and um
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that's that's the Ki success
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story yeah yeah yeah yeah like literally
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starting from nothing yeah absolutely
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um yeah so the the um the word Refugee
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in particular being a refugee um like is
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there is there a stigma with that it's
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not something I've ever really really
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thought about but yeah is there like
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some sort of stigma associated with that
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really good question man so uh June the
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20th uh June the 20th is World Refugee
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day right and when you think about
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refugees often times the thought is
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usually something negative uh could be
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that you know there's a victimhood
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mentality there could be that oh poor
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these guys and and there is a negative
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stigma attached generally with refugees
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I think and to be honest that's how I
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used to view it I didn't like the word
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or the label being placed on me that
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abas Refugee from Afghanistan so on I
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didn't really associate with that that
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much I try to shed that off but over
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time I've come to see the other side of
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the coin because when you're a refugee
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you go through so many struggles that
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are almost uh un
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incomprehensible right compared to many
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other people's experiences so what you
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see off the back of that once you go
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through the struggles of of the physical
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journey to security and safety then the
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journey to try and build yourself up
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again in new country and so on that's an
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incredible feat of strength and
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endurance right there and so while there
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is some sort of victimhood and negative
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personas attached to it there's a
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massive other side to it and that is one
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of strength of perseverance of
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commitment and I think one of the main
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reasons why I'm so passionate about
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sharing my story writing the book and
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doing these kind of conversations is to
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help people understand that side too
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yeah that there is positivity there is
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strength attached to that word as well
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respect yeah because it wasn't until
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prepping for this um conversation today
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that I thought about the word I've got
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I've got no preconceived ideas if
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anything I I would think um Refugee is
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sort of like a like a victim yeah um
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that you found New Zealand or whatever
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the country they have to go to as a a
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safe place but yeah I if that was your
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experience for I I think there's
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definitely truth to that as well there
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is some victimhood and I don't want to
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kind of brush that away you know a lot
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of a lot of refugees do get victimized
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whether it's in their own country
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whether it's their actual journey to
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safety and then upon arrival elsewhere
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and you don't want to hide away from the
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fact that that is some people's
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experience but I also want to highlight
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the fact that there is enormous strength
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in that as well that the ability to you
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know I was a little child when we went
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on on our kind of Journey to to Asylum
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but if you imagine right you know
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listens to this podcast if you've got
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kids or whatever you pack up your entire
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life and you say we have to leave and I
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don't quite know where the journey is
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going to take us but you've got your
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children in tow and you're going to take
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them elsewhere right what a journey that
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you have to take on to freedom to
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security to safety uh that takes
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enormous grit and determination and
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that's also part of what being a refugee
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is like yeah that joury that you're
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talking about for you for you and your
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experience that was the best part of a
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year um and we will we will get to that
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cuz it's a hell of a story uh first of
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all like what are your what are your
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earliest memories from your first seven
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years yeah you know when I think back to
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you know my childhood in Afghanistan all
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I think about is this beautiful
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beautiful Valley that we kind of grew up
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in so I grew up in this tiny little
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village uh tucked away high up in the
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kind of mountains or the central plateau
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of Afghanistan and I remember my
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childhood was one of extremes in that it
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was just incredibly uh hot dry Summers
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you know I remember us and the local
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kids would go and uh swim in this little
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creek that gave the village its name Sun
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Joy right was translated to Rocky Creek
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or Rock Creek and in the winters I
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remember you know we have a heavy heavy
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dump of snow would kind of get early
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morning get the shovels out and kind of
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shovel our way out and connect our
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houses back to the other houses you know
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and it was just an incredible childhood
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growing up it was was definitely harsh
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it was uh but it was peaceful it was
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very uh basic in that you know everyone
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took care of one another everyone was
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that kind of
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subsistence uh rural isolated Community
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uh and I don't want to romanticize it
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right we didn't have water didn't have
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running water or electricity to our
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house or anything like that oh did you
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not your your house looks really nice
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though there's a photo of it in your
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book um yeah look looks beautiful it
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looks like it could be in Hawks Bay or
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somewhere classic kind of square mud
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brick clay house that is very typical of
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many rural settings in Afghanistan yeah
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and fruit trees everywhere that's right
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and that's the beauty about it right so
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gardening is a central part of Afghan
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and and and to a wider extent kind of
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Persian culture right you take great
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pride in having a a nice Orchard or
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garden out front and that's been part of
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the Afghan identity for for you know
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generations and so and the beauty the
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climate as well I often talk about to
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people who don't who can't imagine what
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where I grew up look like if you think
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of central otago it's exactly what it
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was like the mountains and the lakes and
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the rivers same same weather really hot
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dry Summers really cold Winters that's
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what it was like and so the climate
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lends itself to Growing you know like
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you said fruit trees and that kind of
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thing yeah so it's beautiful in that way
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so so by Afghani standards were you guys
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um were you guys wealthy or sort of
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middle class or on the poor side or uh
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we definitely I'd say on the on the on
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the Poor Side you know so if you're in a
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village in anywhere in rural Afghanistan
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right it is you own a patch of land
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hopefully and you in the house that
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you're in and that's it you know if you
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you've got a decent Harvest throughout
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the winter months that would kind of
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carry you through for the rest of the
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year any excess might be sold at the
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local markets and then the cycle will
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just continue on and on and that's kind
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of everything that everyone has known
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for multiple Generations yeah and and
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um what did it mean for you I'm just
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because I'm trying to think like when I
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was your age like say 0 to six yeah what
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what did it mean for you personally like
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when um the Taliban took over like how
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did your life change or did it change it
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all were you sort of aware of it or
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initially no like one from a childhood
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perspective you're not really aware of
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your bigger surroundings what's
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happening in your country right yeah so
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when the Taliban took over um the
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emerged in Afghanistan in the early '90s
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and then it was by the mid 90s '95 96 is
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when they were had pretty much Taken
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full control of the country I guess
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because of our sheer isolation where we
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were and so far away from the major
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cities which was the brunt of where the
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violence and the fighting was taking
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place we were shielded away in the
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initial years
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I mean we felt it economically um you
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know where it was harder there's less
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trading happening it was harder to get
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access to information hard to get access
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to trades and resources and that kind of
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thing uh so that's how we first felt it
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but then where it really started to
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impact us on a daily was starting to
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hear rumors and stories of what was
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happening in the cities like what of and
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and that's a question I often get like a
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bus why was it that your family
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specifically felt in danger or
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threatened away right and what we were
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hearing and eventually what we were kind
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of really seeing was this kind of
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complete kind of persecution against
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certain members of the Afghan community
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and particularly uh our our community we
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we call ourselves the Hazara people of
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Afghanistan um we look a little bit
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different right we have Central Asian
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genetic so uh we look a little bit
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different we speak a different language
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we worship differently you kind of look
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some I get that all the time Williams
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energy I get I get that all the time and
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so uh the thing with Afghanistan is like
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it's a beautiful Patchwork quilt of
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multiple different faces and ethnicities
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and languages and all of that but uh
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sadly what that is also meant is that if
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you're in the minority like we were uh
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it often means that you feel the sharp
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end of the stick the most and in my book
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I highlight all of the horrible things
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that have happened against the Hazara
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people of Afghanistan over multiple
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centuries
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and when the Taliban took over in their
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quest to uh you know rebuild the country
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in the way that they wanted to there was
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no room for anyone who didn't fit the
00:13:09
bill for what they wanted and so we
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started to hear rumors and eventual you
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know verified stories of uh a campaign
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against the Hazara where it was where it
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was displacement from their lands to
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actual Slaughters that happened in in
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the major cities and we knew that
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perhaps at some point that they might
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come in and roll in into our village and
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so that was the turning point of Our
00:13:33
Lives this this fear that set in we
00:13:35
started to see fewer and fewer kids in
00:13:37
school because families kind of packed
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up and left and maybe they had left to
00:13:40
go internally within the country or
00:13:43
maybe they left externally and left the
00:13:45
country if they had the means there were
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few kids in school few livestock grazing
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the lands there was obviously the market
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activity completely closed down and all
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the bazaars and uh life really kind of
00:13:56
took on a dark turn and that little
00:13:58
image of what put in the start of what
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people thought about what what my
00:14:01
Village was like it just suddenly became
00:14:03
a dark dark place and so it's only a
00:14:06
matter of time before we had to leave as
00:14:08
well right so I'm guessing you know this
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in um retrospect because you've spoken
00:14:12
to your dad and some of the other Elders
00:14:13
about it and um you know you've
00:14:15
researched for your book yeah um so but
00:14:17
for for you at the time the day-to-day
00:14:19
difference was maybe your parents being
00:14:21
a bit like yeah like triggered or
00:14:23
alarmed or worried and the the the kids
00:14:25
in your school disappearing yeah that's
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right so again still a happy kid though
00:14:30
yeah yeah I guess I don't want to
00:14:32
downplay it but you know you're a child
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yeah if your parents are doing a good
00:14:36
job then they'll be um shielding you
00:14:38
from the stuff yeah that's right so uh
00:14:41
the day-to-day stuff kind of continued
00:14:43
onwards but it did become a parent that
00:14:46
things weren't normal even to a child's
00:14:48
understanding of what normal look like
00:14:50
and so
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um it wasn't that much of a surprise
00:14:55
when you know Dad said look we have to
00:14:56
leave and you know I've hatched the plan
00:14:58
and we're going to to leave and head
00:15:00
over to get out of the country yeah
00:15:02
which is a terrifying plan yeah can you
00:15:05
remember that conversation of how your
00:15:07
parents sold it to you or I remember
00:15:09
distinctly the only part that said that
00:15:11
tomorrow is going to be kind of your
00:15:12
last day at school you know you go say
00:15:14
goodbye to your teachers and any of your
00:15:16
friends and uh by the time you come back
00:15:19
uh you know I've got a friend who's
00:15:20
who's who's going to take us out of here
00:15:23
and did he say where no and to be honest
00:15:26
I don't think the plans the extent of
00:15:27
his plan was all that clear in his mind
00:15:29
as well uh but uh I remember the next
00:15:32
day going to school saying goodbye to
00:15:34
our teachers and that uh dad has always
00:15:36
been big on education you know some
00:15:38
other Villages they might have left they
00:15:40
probably didn't have you know didn't
00:15:41
really care about it but he said look go
00:15:43
say goodbye to and we had one teacher I
00:15:45
remember him I didn't like him all that
00:15:46
much either but say goodbye shake his
00:15:50
hand and then came back home and that
00:15:52
was it you know uh all of life's
00:15:54
belongings were packed into a few duffel
00:15:56
bags and as Lori came by um and we
00:16:00
jumped into the back of this Lorry uh
00:16:03
and it kind of took us away from our
00:16:04
village and headed on out and the extent
00:16:07
of the plan was eventually to to cross
00:16:09
the border into into neighboring
00:16:12
Pakistan which was relatively safer and
00:16:15
that was it yeah so that was the first
00:16:17
first part of the journey so you leave
00:16:19
Afghanistan um eventually making your
00:16:21
way to Indonesia long journey 6 months
00:16:23
yeah um yeah what are your Recollections
00:16:26
of that uh without going into too much
00:16:28
much detail and leaving enough interest
00:16:30
for listeners to this podcast to go and
00:16:32
buy my book all
00:16:34
right also you're here for a limited
00:16:36
time only you've got another appointment
00:16:38
so we need to no no really good question
00:16:41
so basically man um when we left
00:16:43
Afghanistan there was no greater plan
00:16:47
when you're a refugee all you do is you
00:16:49
think of what how to put food on your
00:16:51
table that day how to put a roof over
00:16:53
your family's head that day and you
00:16:55
can't really think that far ahead and so
00:16:58
we were living in this kind of on the
00:16:59
outskirts of a major city in Pakistan
00:17:02
and realize that we can't really go back
00:17:05
can't really go forward when progress
00:17:07
our lives here in Pakistan didn't have
00:17:09
any rights or the ability to kind of
00:17:10
rebuild our life and whatnot and uh when
00:17:15
you're a refugee that's your basic
00:17:16
existence your ability to impact your
00:17:19
life is completely Stripped Away from
00:17:21
you you're like a the way I describe it
00:17:23
is you're like a number and a sea of
00:17:25
numbers who you were back home your
00:17:27
identity your role in your community any
00:17:31
qualifications any connections you have
00:17:33
doesn't mean anything you don't even
00:17:35
have a government or an agency that
00:17:36
might be able to Advocate on your behalf
00:17:38
right you're this the stateless person
00:17:40
and your number one priority is like
00:17:42
especially if you have kids are they
00:17:44
safe how am I going to feed them today
00:17:47
how far back are they going to fall in
00:17:48
their education what does their future
00:17:50
look like and that's the Refuge
00:17:53
experience in a
00:17:54
nutshell um can't go back because you
00:17:56
don't know when or if it'll be safe
00:17:59
again and what's there to go back to and
00:18:01
I want listeners of this podcast to
00:18:03
think and apply that same question to
00:18:04
what's happening around the world right
00:18:06
now and you know you got the the um
00:18:09
Israel Palestine Saga you've got Russia
00:18:11
Ukraine right think of all those people
00:18:13
about what what do they do right can't
00:18:15
go back can't go forward they're kind of
00:18:17
stuck and that was our situation yeah
00:18:19
and yeah something that I think sort of
00:18:22
um that's way less comparable but um
00:18:25
there was a sense during the um the
00:18:27
pandemic you know newal that were locked
00:18:29
overseas and they felt like they
00:18:30
couldn't even get back to their home
00:18:31
country and just how insens people were
00:18:35
were by that by that and you you know
00:18:37
you and your family you're stripped from
00:18:39
your your ego your identity and
00:18:40
everything it's like it's an impossible
00:18:42
situation for most of us to yeah even
00:18:45
fathom I'm glad you brought that up I
00:18:46
was in the states when when lockdown
00:18:48
happened I was stuck out there trying to
00:18:49
get a miq spot it was impossible but it
00:18:53
it did bring exactly that point home
00:18:55
that I hope people saw what it's like
00:18:57
when you don't have any way for for when
00:18:59
all of the barriers are locked to you
00:19:01
you can't go forward you can't even go
00:19:03
back home there's no way to kind of move
00:19:05
your life forward that's what it was
00:19:07
like and I'm really glad you brought up
00:19:08
that point and so when you're in that
00:19:10
situation especially if you got your
00:19:12
family in tow you got to make some you
00:19:14
got to make some harsh harsh decisions
00:19:16
how am I going to move forward you got
00:19:18
to knock down some doors and that's what
00:19:20
you know my dad is the head of our
00:19:22
family and other other fathers and that
00:19:24
decided that we're going to try and seek
00:19:26
Asylum elsewhere and we're going to seek
00:19:28
Asylum in Australia and Australia it was
00:19:32
um when I bring up that point and I've
00:19:34
seen this in comments section and I see
00:19:36
this in feedback and Q&A sections why
00:19:39
why Australia right why' you go from the
00:19:41
Middle East all the way to Australia was
00:19:43
there not somewhere nearby that you
00:19:45
could go to and to be honest has a valid
00:19:47
point I remember this guy uh we I did
00:19:50
this event in Melbourne when the first
00:19:51
when the book first came out and this
00:19:53
guy got up during the question and
00:19:55
answer session and he goes you know boss
00:19:57
great talk mate but what you guys choose
00:19:59
Australia right and and he he's very
00:20:02
serious about this he goes was it
00:20:04
because we just hosted the uh the Sydney
00:20:07
2000 Olympics and Australia looked
00:20:09
pretty attractive on TV and you guys
00:20:11
wanted to live here uh and I gave him
00:20:14
you know I didn't know what to make of
00:20:17
that question so I gave him an equally
00:20:18
serious answer back I said no mate you
00:20:20
know when we were uh when we were
00:20:21
fleeing for our lives from the tban we
00:20:23
didn't quite have time to watch the
00:20:24
Sydney 2000 Olympics but um you know
00:20:27
there was an ad running at the time they
00:20:29
asked us where the bloody hell are you
00:20:31
Bing the bikini your was like that's it
00:20:36
that's where we're going all right the
00:20:37
head worked but I got the G of what he
00:20:39
was asking for right like why would you
00:20:41
Peck up your life and go halfway across
00:20:43
the world to to a place in Australia
00:20:45
would never been to it's a valid point
00:20:47
yeah and the best answer I can give for
00:20:49
that is this if you draw a big ass
00:20:52
circle around where we were living at
00:20:53
the time there is no country around us
00:20:56
that would be able to give us the
00:20:58
opportunity to rebuild a new life you go
00:21:00
to any of the Gulf States you go to any
00:21:02
of the Central Asian countries you go to
00:21:04
as far as southeast Asia and that if you
00:21:06
arrive on their Shores the very best
00:21:08
welcome that you could receive would be
00:21:10
a blind eye to your arrival if that
00:21:12
country be it Iran be it any of the Gulf
00:21:15
States and that if their country had
00:21:17
some sort of semblance of political
00:21:18
stability they just kind of turn a blind
00:21:20
eye to your arrival and maybe they might
00:21:22
get some un Refugee agency funds to host
00:21:25
you but no way to rebuild a new life
00:21:29
uh if they're going through political
00:21:31
instability what they do instead would
00:21:32
be that kind of turn the guns around and
00:21:35
kind of make an example of you and make
00:21:36
you the scapegoat and every day sadly
00:21:39
hundreds of Afghans who try to cross the
00:21:40
border into neighboring Iran for example
00:21:42
they get killed they get shot at they
00:21:44
get drowned the Border it never makes
00:21:46
the news and that happens on the daily
00:21:48
so why why Australia well we' heard that
00:21:50
if you can make your way to Australia
00:21:52
you might be able to seek Asylum and
00:21:54
seeking Asylum is something that we all
00:21:55
have always have the right to have you
00:21:58
know uh if listeners to this podcast
00:21:59
don't understand what seeking Asylum is
00:22:01
I'll use your rugby analogy before right
00:22:03
there's a North and South Island Civil
00:22:05
War right and I know the Crusaders are
00:22:06
going to win that
00:22:08
one all the all the all the north
00:22:10
Islanders you know they Chief Chiefs
00:22:13
matter all the north Islanders right
00:22:15
they have to cross the border sorry
00:22:17
cross the border you know jump on the
00:22:18
yach swim Across The Tasman seat to try
00:22:20
and get to Australia then the Australian
00:22:22
government then has a duty to kind of
00:22:23
seek Grant Asylum look at their case
00:22:26
look at their story listen to their
00:22:28
evidence and if it Stacks up then
00:22:30
provide tempor temporary uh protection
00:22:33
for those people yeah you and I both
00:22:35
have the right to seek Asylum thankfully
00:22:36
given where we live in Aro we never have
00:22:38
to exercise that right but some people
00:22:40
do yeah so we're going to seek asylum in
00:22:42
Australia and that's why we ended up in
00:22:44
Indonesia and from there you know jump
00:22:46
on a boat to try and get to Australia
00:22:49
yeah so the six-month Journey from
00:22:51
Afghanistan to um Indonesia um yeah lots
00:22:55
of drama yeah 6 months it's it's a crazy
00:22:57
amount of time and it was during this
00:22:59
time that you turned seven you had your
00:23:01
seventh birthday and then um you see the
00:23:03
ocean for the very first time you never
00:23:06
seen the never seen the ocean in your
00:23:07
life Afghanistan's a landlocked country
00:23:09
not many people know that yeah we're
00:23:10
mountain people definitely not a sea
00:23:12
fearing Nation that's one thing you and
00:23:14
I have in common on from palas to North
00:23:15
which Another Mountain Nation yeah first
00:23:18
time I saw the ocean it was hangi Beach
00:23:20
and it was like the ocean [ __ ] I want to
00:23:22
go back um yeah so you see the ocean for
00:23:25
the very first time it's dark at the
00:23:28
it's the middle of the night right when
00:23:29
you get to the boat yeah yeah so so this
00:23:32
is the um palopa y yes Pala the Palapa 2
00:23:36
that's right yeah a rickety old fishing
00:23:38
boat that was called the Palapa 2 which
00:23:41
would later find out and running joke
00:23:43
amongst the community is you know what
00:23:45
happened to the Palapa 1 right you know
00:23:47
would hate to know what happened to that
00:23:48
what did happen to Pala one palaa one
00:23:50
probably is is sunk and at the bottom of
00:23:53
the Indian Ocean I guess yeah okay so
00:23:55
you became very intimate with this boat
00:23:56
so it's um it's an old um
00:23:58
you commission or whatever yeah modified
00:24:01
fishing boat designed for 40 40 or so
00:24:04
yeah 40 people and there was um how many
00:24:06
like 4 438 438 of us yeah so 10 so 10
00:24:12
times the capacity so imagine like a
00:24:14
studio apartment designed for two and
00:24:16
having 20 people in there that's right I
00:24:18
suppose it's kind of like that like 10
00:24:19
times the capacity so describe the boat
00:24:22
for us so it was um so when we bought it
00:24:25
it was middle of the night can't really
00:24:27
make out much about it um there's a lot
00:24:30
of grumblings and I think to this day
00:24:32
I'm sure there were some people who saw
00:24:33
it and said no way I'm getting on there
00:24:34
and then turned around I bet there were
00:24:36
we can't tell there was that many people
00:24:37
was that much activity CU they been
00:24:39
oversold and underived exactly the next
00:24:41
day you know as as we get some semblance
00:24:44
of what was happening look around and
00:24:46
definitely some sort of modified fishing
00:24:48
boat I think that put in an extra layer
00:24:50
for for more people to be able to be
00:24:52
crammed in um and it was you literally
00:24:56
packed in like sardines you know your
00:24:58
shoulder to shoulder knee to knee with
00:25:00
the person next to you you know with
00:25:02
luggage and baggage and everything else
00:25:04
just kind of strewn in between uh
00:25:06
multiple layers and there's some people
00:25:08
on the top right on the open deck and
00:25:11
there was a couple of layers in the
00:25:12
middle and then there's some people
00:25:13
right at the bottom you know the kind of
00:25:14
cargo space with the engine and all of
00:25:16
that so you didn't have a a beard or
00:25:17
anything like that no of course not like
00:25:19
we were like literally on the on the
00:25:21
wooden decking like sleeping sitting
00:25:24
down laying eating that was it yeah and
00:25:27
so so the men were at the the very
00:25:29
bottom near engine and the fumes exactly
00:25:32
the younger fitter healthier sort of
00:25:34
Elder sons and fathers who had left
00:25:36
their families behind they were in first
00:25:38
and they were right at the bottom with
00:25:39
the luggage and the fumes and the
00:25:40
engines and all of that and then kind of
00:25:43
the families and those with young kids
00:25:45
were kind of a little bit higher up yeah
00:25:47
how how much luggage how much luggage
00:25:49
was he run very little very little like
00:25:51
you like a backpack with that's about it
00:25:52
literally like a backpack full of just a
00:25:54
few personal belongings right cuz it's
00:25:57
not like you're carrying your life's
00:25:58
belongings it's literally just enough to
00:26:00
cuz we were told it was going to be a
00:26:01
two-day Journey yeah two-day journey to
00:26:04
try and cross the Indian Ocean and head
00:26:05
south to to the Australian Mainland so
00:26:08
so what did you have the seven-year-old
00:26:09
a bus seven-year-old a bus with a
00:26:11
backpack I'm pretty sure I had like two
00:26:12
T-shirts and a banana and I think a
00:26:16
toothbrush and some socks or something
00:26:19
very sensible very sensible I remember
00:26:21
distinctly that I I I had on a pair of
00:26:23
jandals which I I lost at some point
00:26:26
throughout the voyage and I remember I
00:26:29
missed them so much because and we'll
00:26:31
get to the story but when we got rescued
00:26:33
the the ship that rescued us was this
00:26:36
metal giant container ship so with a
00:26:38
metal you know deck that would get
00:26:41
blazing hot in the Pacific Sun and I got
00:26:44
like the bottom of my feet would burn to
00:26:46
a Cris with blisters that thick you know
00:26:48
it was I remember missing my Jan was
00:26:51
very much in that yeah yeah yeah okay so
00:26:54
so you get on this um you get on this uh
00:26:57
yeah you must have asked your dad about
00:26:59
this like
00:27:00
um yeah cuz it looked very unsafe yeah
00:27:03
so why did your dad go on rather than
00:27:06
just like turn around and stay where you
00:27:08
were in Indonesia I think that's
00:27:10
honestly one of the biggest questions
00:27:11
like get on or don't get on right it's
00:27:15
it's a massive point of
00:27:17
contention But to answer your question
00:27:19
it's all about desperation right look at
00:27:21
where we've come from we were living in
00:27:23
this little old village life is good
00:27:25
like it's relatively safe you're in this
00:27:28
Community it's all we've known and that
00:27:31
that's all we thought our life would be
00:27:32
and that was perfectly fine but suddenly
00:27:35
through violence and conflict we pretty
00:27:37
much get uprooted out of the country and
00:27:39
thrown elsewhere end up in a refugee
00:27:41
camp we've got no way to go forward or
00:27:44
go back or kind of move our life around
00:27:47
and then suddenly we find ourselves in
00:27:49
the shores of another foreign country in
00:27:51
which your only two options are get on
00:27:53
board this thing that you hope and pray
00:27:56
Will Survive the journey
00:27:58
and assuming it does will be able to
00:28:00
give you a chance at a new life you know
00:28:02
should you be accepted for Asylum or
00:28:05
don't get on board and what are your
00:28:07
chance what are your options if you
00:28:08
don't get on board you might end up
00:28:10
begging or homeless in the streets of
00:28:12
Jakarta right so it's answer your
00:28:14
question it's desperation it's realizing
00:28:17
that you've been dealt a really bad hand
00:28:20
and you just have to make do with that
00:28:22
you roll the dice you pray and you hope
00:28:24
for the best and and that's why you know
00:28:26
so you said of damn damned if you do
00:28:28
damned if you don't exactly and and
00:28:29
that's to be honest man that's the
00:28:30
number one thing I always get from
00:28:32
listeners of our conversations and
00:28:34
people who read my book is like I can't
00:28:36
ever imagine doing that well neither did
00:28:38
we it's not like it was planned but you
00:28:40
get put in that situation you have to do
00:28:42
something right go forward go back but
00:28:44
you can't stay where you are and to be
00:28:46
honest most of the uh our decisions I
00:28:49
call them decisions our hand was forced
00:28:51
right we had to flee our village we had
00:28:53
to leave that Refugee Village refugee
00:28:57
camp that we were at in Pakistan and we
00:28:59
couldn't not get on board this thing cuz
00:29:00
what are our options backwards right so
00:29:03
it's it's very hard for people to
00:29:05
comprehend what we had to go through
00:29:06
yeah yeah and and I I guess by that
00:29:08
point your dad had used all the family's
00:29:10
uh resources available and it's like
00:29:12
well [ __ ] we're into deep yeah exactly
00:29:15
so you've you've made it this far and
00:29:17
the final thing is just this this boat
00:29:19
ride so that's right you've made it this
00:29:21
far right so so um so Palapa 2 takes um
00:29:25
takes sale um how's it can you remember
00:29:28
your first time on water on a boat
00:29:30
seasickness that's the honestly bro
00:29:32
that's the number one thing I think
00:29:33
about like when I was writing this book
00:29:36
I was trying to imagine I was trying to
00:29:38
bring back all these memories out of the
00:29:40
memory bank and the I can smell it so
00:29:44
like so uh strongly absolute seasickness
00:29:49
across the entire boat like I said
00:29:50
Afghanistan's a landlock country right
00:29:52
not a seafaring Nation for many this was
00:29:55
many people's first time on the Open
00:29:57
Water right not at the beach but on the
00:29:59
actual open ocean and we were getting
00:30:01
rocked like everyone was seasick it was
00:30:04
disgusting uh it was hot uh and that's
00:30:08
what I remember just seasick to the day
00:30:10
but to be honest there was a sense of
00:30:13
cautious optimism because people
00:30:15
realized this was the final step of the
00:30:17
journey made it this far this was it
00:30:20
just couple more days and we'll be on
00:30:22
you know safe dry land so there was this
00:30:24
optimism that was in the air that didn't
00:30:27
last all that long because the engine
00:30:29
gave out right this thing was already
00:30:31
ancient we were out in the open water
00:30:33
we're being rocked back and forth and by
00:30:36
the end of the first night uh this thing
00:30:38
starts making funny noises and by the
00:30:40
middle of that night it's dead
00:30:42
completely in the water and there are a
00:30:44
few people I think amongst us who used
00:30:45
to be like mechanics in that back home
00:30:48
who try to give some life and they tried
00:30:49
to repair this thing and I think they
00:30:51
are initially successful it goes on for
00:30:52
a couple more hours and then it's
00:30:54
completely dead and they realize it's
00:30:56
beyond repair you so at that point you
00:30:57
just like bobbing around in the Indian
00:30:59
Ocean and this complete Panic starts to
00:31:02
set in we're just bobbing around in the
00:31:04
open ocean no real way to go back and
00:31:06
forth no way to go back no way to kind
00:31:08
of call for help or anything like that
00:31:10
and then now it's starting to panic and
00:31:12
then we realize our situation there and
00:31:15
and some of the some of the me um I
00:31:18
think I read this in your book um they
00:31:20
like ripped some panels off the boat to
00:31:22
try and use them as yeah despiration
00:31:24
anything you could like try to get some
00:31:25
propulsion going rip some of the [ __ ]
00:31:27
off to try try and paddle this thing
00:31:28
obviously you know to no avail up
00:31:30
against the the ocean um and then we
00:31:33
start to see what the hell are we going
00:31:34
to do so are your memories of this um
00:31:39
you quite Vivid or is it just from what
00:31:40
what you out of the entire Journey the
00:31:43
memories of being on the boat are the
00:31:45
strongest because they're also the most
00:31:48
emotionally uh Intense or the most
00:31:51
emotionally scaring uh being on the boat
00:31:54
in that night of you know when we were
00:31:56
just kind of bobbing in the ocean
00:31:58
especially when the next day we started
00:32:01
to see the the clouds darken and then a
00:32:04
storm arrived the next day that's the
00:32:07
the hardest part about for me to write
00:32:09
because it's so vivid I remember
00:32:12
distinctly because of how packed in we
00:32:14
were just like the shoulder-to-shoulder
00:32:15
every time a wave would come we all just
00:32:17
kind of all of us be squished to one
00:32:19
side and then the boat would kind of
00:32:21
balance out and then it'll be pushed on
00:32:22
to the other side and I remember dead
00:32:24
kind of I think it was a belt or a towel
00:32:27
kind of looped it around one of the
00:32:28
rafters and kind of creating a handle so
00:32:31
that he'd hold on to us every time I you
00:32:33
know get pushed this way and that way
00:32:35
and there' be luggage and and people
00:32:37
who' vomited into plastic bags you know
00:32:39
there bursting and rolling around with
00:32:41
everybody and freezing cold sea water
00:32:43
dumping from on top so I can I can when
00:32:45
I think about it I can smell the damp
00:32:48
wood and I can feel that Ocean Spray and
00:32:50
I can I can can smell the the vomit and
00:32:53
the human waist that was in the air and
00:32:55
it all in pitch black darkness too
00:32:58
because we're in the middle of the night
00:32:59
right so that's the most Vivid part of
00:33:02
my journey that I remember were you were
00:33:04
you fearful or were you you just looked
00:33:07
to your dad for sort of C emotional cues
00:33:10
both I think as to this day when I think
00:33:15
about it I don't think there was one
00:33:16
moment where I understood the why the
00:33:19
bigger picture the greater context for
00:33:21
why we were on that trip like why did we
00:33:24
have to leave our village I never really
00:33:25
understood the gravity of it of course
00:33:27
not you just
00:33:28
exactly exactly so I and even to this
00:33:30
day when I try to imagine it I don't
00:33:31
think I'll get a good grasp of it but in
00:33:34
that night I remember distinctly
00:33:36
realizing this is about as serious as it
00:33:38
gets because some of the parents were
00:33:40
crying some of the adults had completely
00:33:42
lost it like in terms of they were in
00:33:44
complete distress realizing that the
00:33:46
next wave could be the last that I've
00:33:49
rolled the dice and the children that I
00:33:50
bought with me uh I'm I'm responsible
00:33:53
for their Fates and
00:33:55
so that was incredibly hard to write
00:33:58
about because I I interviewed a few of
00:34:00
the the Tampa community members and they
00:34:04
say as the head of the household you
00:34:07
want the very best for your children you
00:34:08
want the very best for your family and
00:34:10
for them the very best for their family
00:34:12
was this this this golden ticket to a
00:34:15
new life but part of redeeming that
00:34:17
golden ticket was we had to go through
00:34:18
the gaunlet and the gaunlet was being on
00:34:20
this boat and they realized that they
00:34:22
weren't going to make it and so trying
00:34:25
to put that into words for the average
00:34:26
reader and I'm guess I'm struggling a
00:34:28
little bit now but trying to put it into
00:34:30
words now for listeners of of my story
00:34:33
about how hard it is to take that
00:34:35
decision but more importantly to then
00:34:36
come to grips with the the consequences
00:34:39
of that decision is incredibly hard um
00:34:42
and like I said I was on there as a
00:34:44
little kid I don't think I fully
00:34:46
understood it until that night yeah but
00:34:49
through I always say
00:34:50
through faith through prayer through
00:34:53
luck divine intervention whatever you
00:34:55
want to call it you know we we Sur
00:34:57
surved that night and and and the next
00:35:00
day um as the storm kind of rolls away
00:35:03
and the clouds open up uh you know
00:35:06
trying to figure out what's going to
00:35:07
happen next so did you manage to get any
00:35:09
sleep that night or no of course not no
00:35:11
like did anybody or no nobody nobody
00:35:13
what was everyone doing just like just
00:35:15
the most yeah just literally hoping for
00:35:18
the best every time a wave would come we
00:35:20
all just we would hear the creaking and
00:35:21
cracking of the of the Timbers and would
00:35:24
be rocked this way and then would be
00:35:26
rocked this way and that way and this
00:35:27
way and that way endlessly but the most
00:35:30
beautiful thing and this is a a memory
00:35:32
that I have so strongly was that some
00:35:35
point throughout the night I don't know
00:35:37
who started it but there's uh a famous
00:35:41
prayer that uh is quite common as the
00:35:43
Traveler's prayer about hoping for
00:35:45
safety someone started kind of bouncing
00:35:48
that out at the top of their lungs and
00:35:50
everyone else knows it too and then this
00:35:52
cacophony of beautiful hymns just kind
00:35:54
of ran through the ship and it was
00:35:56
almost like our way of of battling the
00:35:59
waves and it it it gives me like it is
00:36:03
right now when I think about it it gives
00:36:04
me goosebumps thinking about all of us
00:36:07
in that boat kind of yelling at the top
00:36:09
of our lungs you know hoping hoping away
00:36:13
the the waves that were coming towards
00:36:14
us and like I said you know it worked
00:36:17
because we managed to survive that night
00:36:19
and the next
00:36:21
day uh you know how yeah how long was
00:36:24
the the praying for the whole night
00:36:26
until literally the the whole night like
00:36:30
actually until sunrise [ __ ] well it
00:36:33
worked eh yeah and it worked yeah is
00:36:35
that is that Allah you praise to Allah y
00:36:37
yeah you know pray pray pray to God
00:36:40
above and and and hope for the very best
00:36:43
yeah so so when the dawn breaks and the
00:36:46
storm's passed um you feel a sense of
00:36:49
safety then or no you still think not
00:36:51
safety relief relief that okay I think
00:36:53
the worst of it has passed but
00:36:55
immediately followed by what are we up
00:36:57
to now I feel you can make better
00:37:00
decisions in daylight you you can
00:37:02
physically see the wreckage that you're
00:37:04
in so the whole thing's still in one
00:37:05
piece there's holes and bits and pieces
00:37:08
that are broken here and there people
00:37:09
start patching things up with like top
00:37:11
Orin to kind and cover up the holes
00:37:13
there's a human chain of buckets to try
00:37:14
and obviously heaps of water inside to
00:37:16
try and you know oh really yeah so it
00:37:18
was literally sinking at that point not
00:37:21
sinking but there was you know because
00:37:22
of how much water was coming in on top
00:37:23
is all down in the bottom level so
00:37:25
there's a human change to try and pump
00:37:27
some of this water water out and but the
00:37:29
biggest question is like knowing that if
00:37:31
another one of these Storms Come by that
00:37:33
we're not going to survive you know not
00:37:35
going to survive and so we start looking
00:37:38
out for any kind of help or rescue or
00:37:40
anything like that and and sure enough
00:37:43
man like this small thing pops up in the
00:37:47
in the Horizon and everyone lurches
00:37:49
dangerously towards it trying to figure
00:37:51
out what it is right it's like is it a
00:37:53
boat is it an island is it a mirage what
00:37:56
is it there a huge commotion people
00:37:58
trying to make of it and it gets a bit
00:38:00
closer and closer and obvious okay it's
00:38:02
a boat and I think it's hit it towards
00:38:03
us and then it gets a bit closer and
00:38:05
it's okay it's a massive boat you know
00:38:08
it's find out it's a container ship what
00:38:10
it like 250 M long or something like a
00:38:12
couple of rugby Fields yeah uh 250 M
00:38:15
long container ship and you've seen how
00:38:17
big these things are right with
00:38:19
container stacked Sky High and it was
00:38:22
the the tamper hence the name of my book
00:38:26
and hence the tamper effect and I know
00:38:28
there'll be light Bobs going off for
00:38:29
listeners of this podcast cuz they
00:38:31
probably remember the Tampa Affair 2001
00:38:33
the Tampa was a Norwegian flagged cargo
00:38:36
ship and it was heading from Perth in
00:38:38
Western Australia uh up towards
00:38:40
Singapore and it just come to rescue us
00:38:43
this thing pops up right next to the
00:38:45
Palapa and blocks out the entire Horizon
00:38:48
right and uh there's a famous photo that
00:38:50
went and did the rounds and we get
00:38:53
rescued we get rescued one of the
00:38:55
largest rescues in modern Maritime
00:38:57
history
00:38:58
there yeah there's so much more to the
00:39:00
story which we we won't have time to get
00:39:01
into today but your plane goes past and
00:39:03
you guys um use some of the wom's
00:39:05
scarves and oil to write SOS on the deck
00:39:08
yeah um and eventually this the ship
00:39:10
comes along so when the ship comes along
00:39:13
is it a sense of relief like oh we're
00:39:15
not going to die instantly like the
00:39:17
moment we are rescued by this uh we know
00:39:20
that okay this thing is Unsinkable I
00:39:23
don't quite know where it's going to
00:39:24
take us there's room for all of us
00:39:26
there's room for all of us but we don't
00:39:28
quite know where it's headed but at
00:39:29
least physically we are safe right uh
00:39:33
that was the immediate feeling and then
00:39:35
so begins this this this thing this
00:39:38
political event in Australia and New
00:39:40
Zealand and international kind of the
00:39:42
community no is this the tamper Affair
00:39:45
so to give people like a 30 second
00:39:47
rundown of it essentially what you've
00:39:49
got is this Norwegian flagged cargo ship
00:39:52
right that is uh backed by the
00:39:55
100-year-old very powerful multibillion
00:39:58
dollar vinus will helson shipping line
00:40:00
right and it has picked up a boatload of
00:40:03
mostly Hazara Afghan Asylum seekers in
00:40:06
the waters between Indonesia and
00:40:09
Australia and we're stateless
00:40:11
essentially we don't have a country back
00:40:13
home we don't have a government back
00:40:14
home that converge for us um we can't go
00:40:18
back to Indonesia and but we're only a
00:40:20
few hours away from Christmas Island in
00:40:23
which is an offshore territory of
00:40:24
Australia and Captain renan makes the
00:40:27
decision to to drop us off at Christmas
00:40:31
Island which is what is dictated by
00:40:34
maritime law that if you're a vessel
00:40:36
that you've rescued performed a rescue
00:40:39
out there in the open ocean that you go
00:40:41
to the nearest port and you drop these
00:40:43
people off particularly if your vessel
00:40:45
the tamper is now unseaworthy right he
00:40:48
didn't have 400 life jackets on board
00:40:51
right he didn't have the the medical
00:40:53
clearance or anything like that to take
00:40:55
care of us and and the nearest P was
00:40:57
Christmas Island so he heads towards
00:40:59
Christmas Island and this's the late
00:41:02
evening sunset or in evening of our
00:41:04
rescue uh heads there we can make out
00:41:06
the island and there's great excitement
00:41:09
we can make out the island and some of
00:41:10
the buildings and lights in that on the
00:41:12
on the island and then he gets stopped
00:41:15
gets a call from the Australian coast
00:41:17
guard to turn around take him El where
00:41:20
Australia is closed so are you yeah what
00:41:24
sort of messaging are you guys getting
00:41:25
on the Tampa are you aware going on or
00:41:27
you just very little very little because
00:41:29
there were very few English speakers
00:41:31
amongst us and so there was I guess a
00:41:34
delegation I think of four or five
00:41:36
people from our side who would go up to
00:41:38
the captain's bridge and ask what was
00:41:41
going on and then relay that information
00:41:42
down not many people really understood
00:41:44
what the hell was going on yeah yeah
00:41:46
it's a lot most people were actually
00:41:48
preoccupied with their own cuz a lot of
00:41:50
people got injured they were seasick
00:41:51
they had fainted they had massive
00:41:53
bruises and broken bones and whatnot oh
00:41:55
from the from the stor the paler so most
00:41:57
people actually preoccupied with their
00:41:59
own physical self at that time to be
00:42:01
worried about okay where are we going
00:42:03
let me just get you know fix up my
00:42:05
broken arm first you know Al so people
00:42:07
have like like broken Limbs and things
00:42:09
yeah yeah it was it wasy and a lot of uh
00:42:12
children and a lot of the people who are
00:42:13
probably a bit more vulnerable had
00:42:16
succumbed to dehydration and seasickness
00:42:18
and and just you know a lot of people
00:42:20
and needing IV drops and that kind of
00:42:22
thing yeah it was almost like a big
00:42:24
medical scene out there yeah yeah so
00:42:26
let's get back a little bit so um yeah
00:42:28
the photo of um the piper next to the
00:42:30
Tampa it's it's it's crazy it's insane
00:42:34
um this is going to be a really dumb
00:42:36
question but um most people most of us
00:42:39
have never been on a little boat and
00:42:40
then gone on to like a big shipping
00:42:42
container how how how do you do that
00:42:44
yeah is there like a massive ladder that
00:42:45
go yeah K you not man the the Tampa
00:42:47
pulled up right next to us so if you
00:42:49
were on the deck of the palaa you reach
00:42:51
that you could almost touch it like it
00:42:52
was parked right next to us and the
00:42:54
photo in my book kind of illustrates us
00:42:56
really well and this massive kind of uh
00:42:59
flight of stairs drops down from the
00:43:01
Tampa onto the deck of the Palapa and
00:43:03
then the the sailors come down and um
00:43:07
they kind of do a mini inspection and
00:43:09
then they begin an order so up you get
00:43:11
one by one literally nothing but the
00:43:14
clothes that you're wearing no bags no
00:43:16
personal
00:43:17
belongings no jandal no jandals nothing
00:43:20
whatever you've got just the clothes
00:43:21
you're wearing obviously go fast as you
00:43:23
can just like you would if you were
00:43:24
doing like an airplane rescue right you
00:43:26
know what they tell you leave your bags
00:43:27
and everything behind that was it and
00:43:28
one by one we climb up the stairs yeah
00:43:31
and that's when we find out cuz they
00:43:33
write a little number on our wrist to
00:43:35
try and keep track of how many people
00:43:36
have just been rescued and that's at the
00:43:37
end they told us
00:43:39
438 I think it's
00:43:41
433 mostly not all but mostly hazar
00:43:44
Afghan Asylum Seekers and some
00:43:45
Indonesian crew yeah all up and so then
00:43:49
um once every everyone gets off safely
00:43:51
right yeah everyone gets off safely and
00:43:53
we're on the Tampa and and that's when
00:43:55
kind of this whole thing kicks off
00:43:57
what happens to the um the palopa does
00:43:59
it just drift away that that's the thing
00:44:01
so the Christian Malto who's the first
00:44:03
officer of the Tampa he does an
00:44:05
inspection of the ship and he thinks
00:44:08
okay we might be able to tow this thing
00:44:10
but as he's making that kind of
00:44:11
assessment the thing starts taking on
00:44:13
water and so he jumps off and by the
00:44:16
time he's back on the ladder this thing
00:44:18
has started to submerge and I I don't
00:44:21
remember this myself but some people
00:44:22
said that when they look down back at
00:44:24
the palaa it was starting to submerge
00:44:26
and break up and is now at the bottom of
00:44:28
the Indian Ocean and all that was left
00:44:30
of it was some bits of debris and some
00:44:32
wood that was floating and that was it
00:44:34
so see you guys were arguably like hours
00:44:36
away from from sinking it was probably
00:44:38
being kept a FL Maybe by people scooping
00:44:41
water out potentially yeah yeah he said
00:44:43
at MTO I didn't get a chance to
00:44:45
interview him but I remember know the
00:44:47
first off say he did give an interview
00:44:49
saying we tried to maybe potentially tow
00:44:51
this thing but it was definitely not
00:44:52
seaworthy and it wouldn't it wouldn't
00:44:54
have survived in the wake of the Tampa
00:44:55
if it was being towed um yeah I guess no
00:44:58
no one was concerned about their
00:45:00
possessions or anything because youve
00:45:01
you you got safety and that exactly so
00:45:03
anything that people bought prize
00:45:04
possessions personal belongings cash
00:45:06
jewelry valuables whatever that all
00:45:09
that's all gone yeah down and there yeah
00:45:12
and then um so you you they have you
00:45:14
like sleeping and shipping containers
00:45:16
yeah that was never the plan like I said
00:45:18
the Tampa Captain renan wanted to drop
00:45:20
us off at Christmas Island uh take just
00:45:24
to take there right and it was very CL
00:45:25
it was only I think 2 or 3 hours away
00:45:27
uh but once he got told that no you
00:45:29
can't come in this begins a standoff
00:45:32
where he doesn't want to go any further
00:45:34
right out into the open ocean to go
00:45:36
somewhere else and his shipping line
00:45:38
from uh Norway backed his decision they
00:45:41
said you're the captain of the ship we
00:45:42
you know we'll back your decision that
00:45:44
okay whatever you decide we've got you
00:45:46
back and so he this begins a standoff
00:45:48
between the Australian coast guard and
00:45:49
the and the and and the captain of the
00:45:52
Tampa and by proxy us and so to make a
00:45:56
accommodations for that night Captain
00:45:58
renan and the crew they open up some of
00:46:00
the containers some of the empty
00:46:01
containers that were on board and he
00:46:03
said look if you need a place to stay
00:46:04
maybe men and women sleep in separate
00:46:06
containers and and children other
00:46:08
containers and we don't really have much
00:46:10
toilet facilities for all of you but I
00:46:12
remember them bringing out plastic bags
00:46:14
and buckets and putting in a makeshift
00:46:15
latrine in this one corner you know it
00:46:19
was the most disgusting thing right
00:46:21
because it's open sewage just being
00:46:23
there but obviously to this day and I'll
00:46:25
make it very clear in the book we hold
00:46:27
nothing against the captain and crew of
00:46:29
the Tampa like they did the very best
00:46:31
with what they had in in all the
00:46:33
resources that they had under the
00:46:35
circumstances yes they tra to tr to
00:46:36
trade you guys with digity exactly so
00:46:39
they they did the very best with what
00:46:40
they had and many of the Tampa uh
00:46:43
community members have incredible
00:46:44
respect for for the for the crew and it
00:46:48
was they knew that it was out of their
00:46:49
control yeah but we so it begins a
00:46:52
standoff man like we end up instead of
00:46:54
being dropped off it lasts into day one
00:46:56
and to day two into day three where we
00:46:59
were not welcomed and we weren't getting
00:47:02
any information from what was happening
00:47:04
back in Australia because we didn't even
00:47:06
know obviously this pieces they would
00:47:08
pick up later but they were in the
00:47:09
middle of uh me very very close election
00:47:12
campaign this is the 2001 Australian
00:47:14
General yeah this is the 2001 Australian
00:47:17
general election and Howard was seeking
00:47:18
a third term as prime minister uh we
00:47:21
didn't know who he was or what the
00:47:22
politics was or we didn't even know they
00:47:24
were having an election right but uh
00:47:27
this is all in hindsight once we arrived
00:47:29
to New Zealand we figured all of this
00:47:30
out right that irregular migration as
00:47:33
the media was calling it it wasn't even
00:47:35
a top five or top eight issue or top 10
00:47:37
issue but Howard was going to capitalize
00:47:40
on that and irregular migration so he
00:47:43
managed to spin it into becoming the
00:47:44
biggest kind of vote winner and he was
00:47:47
going to make an example of the the
00:47:49
tamper and so instead of being welcomed
00:47:52
on I think is on I can't remember
00:47:54
exactly day three day four our welcoming
00:47:56
party was 48 fully armed SAS troops
00:48:00
Australian SAS who were obviously on the
00:48:03
order of the the commander and chief
00:48:05
back back in camra were asked to storm
00:48:07
the boat ready for action like these
00:48:09
guys were kitted up it's not like it was
00:48:10
a you know in in in your fatigu it was
00:48:14
in military uniform right Ked out in all
00:48:16
black for you guys fly armed yeah you
00:48:18
guys could have been more vulnerable
00:48:19
than what you were stormed stormed the
00:48:21
boat and surrounded us and they had
00:48:23
essentially commandeered the the Tampa
00:48:26
they were now the the the people in
00:48:28
charge and uh I I looked up the
00:48:32
definition of piracy and it's exactly it
00:48:34
like they essentially commandeered The
00:48:36
Vessel um and so begins a further
00:48:39
standoff and made for a great media
00:48:41
spectacle and that's when the Tampa
00:48:42
started to really make uh make the
00:48:44
headlines here in New Zealand as well
00:48:46
and so we were held uh under the C under
00:48:49
the direction of the Australian SAS now
00:48:51
trying to figure out what where our
00:48:53
Fates lied and all the while we like
00:48:56
when I tell the story it's crazy because
00:48:59
many listeners probably remember this
00:49:02
ship floating in the Indian Ocean this
00:49:04
red held ship but we had no contact with
00:49:07
the outside world there no media there
00:49:09
was no you know NGO there's no
00:49:12
government there was no doctors even
00:49:14
allowed on board we were held off
00:49:16
perfectly bubbled away so that we
00:49:19
couldn't share our side of the story
00:49:22
because they wanted to direct The
00:49:24
Narrative right that by they I mean the
00:49:26
Australian government at the time wanted
00:49:27
to direct The Narrative to to win the
00:49:29
votes because if they were to see sights
00:49:32
of Women and Children and Families it
00:49:34
didn't go against the it didn't go with
00:49:36
the narrative that they wanted to
00:49:37
portray of national security threat of
00:49:41
um aliens of because they didn't want to
00:49:44
put a face to the story they wanted to
00:49:46
be seen as this threat they were pushing
00:49:48
away and were saving and protecting you
00:49:50
guys yeah exz if there's a a clip on um
00:49:53
Nightline or whatever of seven-year-old
00:49:55
AB bus with burned feet yeah probably
00:49:58
you know there might be some some voters
00:50:00
against that right yeah you're you're so
00:50:01
right when when you you look back on
00:50:03
that now like as a as a very successful
00:50:06
gr gr man like are you angry like are
00:50:09
you are you hurt are you upset I think
00:50:12
like I said before if I had maybe a if
00:50:14
I'd been a little bit older and I had a
00:50:16
better understanding of what we're going
00:50:17
through at the time I definitely would
00:50:19
be and I know there are some uh people
00:50:21
and some members who went through that
00:50:22
ordal and they're incredibly angry um
00:50:26
because of how well our life has our
00:50:28
lives have turned out in New Zealand and
00:50:30
we get to support the All Blacks um
00:50:34
and Crusaders keep quiet about that yeah
00:50:37
because of how well it's turned out uh I
00:50:40
don't think there's any anger or
00:50:42
animosity yeah it's more the best
00:50:44
honestly here's it's one of my favorite
00:50:46
things the best way that you can kind of
00:50:49
uh show I'm going to use the word haters
00:50:52
here is to show your success we weren't
00:50:55
given a chance to rebuild our life lives
00:50:56
in Australia thankfully New Zealand came
00:50:59
to the rescue right someone in Helen
00:51:01
Clark's office called up Howard and said
00:51:03
look we'll take them bring them over to
00:51:04
New Zealand and we'll take 150 of them
00:51:07
because that's how many spare beds we
00:51:08
have here in mangi Refugee resettlement
00:51:11
Center uh and that was a turning point
00:51:13
in my life we'll take them and look how
00:51:15
well our lives have turned out so to
00:51:17
answer your question I don't Harbor any
00:51:19
resentment or anger at the Australians
00:51:21
for voting Howard or the Australian
00:51:23
government at the time I just say look
00:51:25
how well our Liv turned out perhaps we
00:51:28
would have been given the same treatment
00:51:29
in Australia had we arrived but we don't
00:51:32
look back yeah I feel like you guys have
00:51:33
you guys when I say you guys I mean your
00:51:35
family you've created your own Success
00:51:36
Through through hard work but there's a
00:51:38
saying I really like don't get better
00:51:40
get better yeah I love that exactly you
00:51:42
guys have done that so so you end up at
00:51:44
um the Detention Center in mang uh and
00:51:47
you have like a six week orientation
00:51:49
yeah yeah so what's the what's that um
00:51:51
detention C like is it like a jail or
00:51:53
does feel DET so Australia has deten
00:51:56
centers Australia detention centers on
00:51:59
Naru on Manis Island and on Christmas
00:52:01
Island and it's a prison right like it
00:52:04
is not a welcoming place it is a prison
00:52:06
with barbed wire and cells and they call
00:52:08
it an offshore processing center New
00:52:11
Zealand has what we call a resettlement
00:52:13
center and it's like a motel it's it's
00:52:16
beautiful like every Refugee who arrives
00:52:18
to New Zealand uh you go through kind of
00:52:20
a six week orientation program where
00:52:24
here in mang right in South Oakland and
00:52:26
you arrive and you get like you get
00:52:29
stamped and tagged is how I say you get
00:52:30
stamped and tagged and given all the
00:52:32
numbers you need to survive in New
00:52:33
Zealand you know your health check up
00:52:35
make sure that you're all documented and
00:52:38
everything like that you've got all your
00:52:39
social needs covered you get given an
00:52:42
introduction to New Zealand like this is
00:52:43
where you are literally a map of New
00:52:45
Zealand you know some of the laws and
00:52:46
customs that we have here and
00:52:49
essentially all one-on-one yeah yeah uh
00:52:52
I all one-on-one and then from there uh
00:52:55
you get resettled throughout the country
00:52:58
so you guys end up in crushes do you do
00:53:00
you get a saying where you go or I don't
00:53:02
think so I don't know if there was any
00:53:03
conversations the number one determinant
00:53:05
of where you get resettled is the
00:53:07
availability of social housing that's it
00:53:09
so and given we were a large cohort and
00:53:11
at the time um you know there was a few
00:53:14
social housing available we were all
00:53:16
resettled in Christ Church and that was
00:53:18
it you know finally after all those
00:53:20
months of being on the road and leaving
00:53:22
our village CH was going to be the new
00:53:24
home from which for us to rebuild our
00:53:26
new lives and we've never looked back
00:53:28
yeah and you you um yeah you you
00:53:30
flourished really really quickly like um
00:53:33
a couple of years after arriving bear in
00:53:34
mind you didn't speak any English when
00:53:35
you arrived no that's the thing man I
00:53:37
learned my ABCs at the at the
00:53:40
resettlement Cent mang like I remember
00:53:42
distinctly all of us kids cuz once
00:53:44
you're there for 6 weeks you go through
00:53:45
a bit of schooling and that too I
00:53:47
remember learning the ABCs and our
00:53:50
numbers and the first word I remember
00:53:52
was learning was the Abacus because it
00:53:54
was very close to my name abas all right
00:53:57
and we used an advocus to learn how to
00:53:59
write I don't know if they do that in
00:54:00
schools nowadays probably use a
00:54:01
calculator but remember using an advocus
00:54:03
to learn how to count yeah but yeah
00:54:05
resettled in Christ Church and and life
00:54:07
for us began properly uh at the start of
00:54:11
2002 yeah yeah yeah I don't know if
00:54:13
you're just if you're just a naturally
00:54:15
intelligent guy or just a hard worker um
00:54:17
but you flourished in the school system
00:54:19
never learned how to spell soliloquy
00:54:21
though sililo
00:54:23
silhouetted silhou no you didn't you um
00:54:27
crash out of the Regionals with
00:54:29
Soliloquy and then crash out of the
00:54:31
Nationals so this is spelling be so you
00:54:33
how old I think I was uh what was it 12
00:54:36
something like that 5 years after
00:54:39
arriving with nothing but the shirt on
00:54:40
your back um you're cleaning up in like
00:54:42
a spelling well almost cleaning up so
00:54:44
kid you not bro I'm like I'm a big nerd
00:54:47
right I I I soaked up everything like
00:54:49
learning the language I my favorite
00:54:51
place when I was growing up was the
00:54:52
local library um and and Richie Monga
00:54:56
used to bike past and go to the local
00:54:58
rugby park right so I can see where
00:55:00
where he's ended up and why he did that
00:55:02
but no went to the local library and
00:55:03
honestly I loved it just soaked it all
00:55:05
up we were in ESO right we were in ESO
00:55:07
programs because we didn't know how to
00:55:08
speak English and then after a while
00:55:10
once you kind of get that under your
00:55:11
belt you go into mainstream classes and
00:55:13
then you kind of go from there but to to
00:55:16
cap off that story um like I said before
00:55:19
kids just soak it all up and so we were
00:55:22
able to really our trajectory was like
00:55:24
this like a rocket taking off learn the
00:55:26
Lang language pick up the culture make
00:55:27
some friends get to know the kids down
00:55:29
your street enroll in the local footy
00:55:31
club and slowly but surely you start to
00:55:34
ingrain yourself and it's all smooth
00:55:35
sailing from there now at this point I
00:55:38
really want to highlight one thing and
00:55:39
it's it's that often times the refugee
00:55:43
stories that you hear are usually
00:55:46
negative right someone who's been bulled
00:55:49
at school someone who's had a negative
00:55:51
experience or maybe the systems failed
00:55:53
them and that way and the other and and
00:55:55
I don't want to make light of that
00:55:57
situation at all because it is the truth
00:55:59
and it does happen for a lot of people
00:56:01
but equally I also want to highlight the
00:56:03
fact that we were also products of the
00:56:05
system and we loved every minute of it
00:56:09
like we were never bullied at school
00:56:10
mostly because we grew up in a
00:56:12
workingclass neighborhood in Christ
00:56:13
Church we weren't the only brown kids at
00:56:15
school we were welcomed by our community
00:56:18
in Upper ricken like they knew that you
00:56:21
know my sister and my mom they wear a
00:56:22
head scarf they knew we were the new
00:56:24
kids but we just kind of in and we're
00:56:26
welcomed by our school ricked and
00:56:28
Primary School right we were enr
00:56:30
enrolled in the aan United Football Club
00:56:33
which is you know no longer now and the
00:56:36
reason I point that out
00:56:38
is integration and assimilation is
00:56:40
successful when the incoming Community
00:56:43
like myself and our community as well as
00:56:46
the host Community they interwine like
00:56:48
this we're welcomed there was no
00:56:51
Prejudice there was no racism or
00:56:52
anything like that and if there was we'd
00:56:55
gone through so much worse it probably
00:56:57
just rolled off our back it rolled off
00:56:59
our back like we never I don't want to
00:57:02
downplay a lot of people's negative
00:57:03
experiences but I'm also like bro have a
00:57:05
bit of perspective here so our community
00:57:08
came in our our our host Community
00:57:10
welcomed us and they gave us the
00:57:12
platform and the the foundation for us
00:57:14
to live and build successful lives here
00:57:16
in New Zealand if more of that happens
00:57:19
it's all really good stories but
00:57:22
unfortunately what I see now is one of
00:57:25
two things I either the new community
00:57:27
coming in doesn't want to integrate so
00:57:30
they come in like this and that doesn't
00:57:32
that doesn't help or maybe they want to
00:57:35
integrate but their host Community
00:57:36
doesn't want them there and so what you
00:57:38
leave is friction instead of beautiful
00:57:41
assimilation and integration what you
00:57:43
get is friction and I kid you not I'm
00:57:45
seeing more and more of that not here in
00:57:47
New Zealand per se but a lot in
00:57:49
Australia and to a much larger extent
00:57:52
across communities in Europe having
00:57:54
traveled there for the last month I see
00:57:56
that yeah I um even with that sort of
00:57:59
local community support support I still
00:58:01
can't imagine how difficult it was for
00:58:02
like your mom and dad you know
00:58:03
incredibly hard but thankfully I don't
00:58:05
know what the programs are like nowadays
00:58:08
but thankfully back then you know there
00:58:09
was a lot of government funded projects
00:58:11
for them to go into uh adult English
00:58:13
language classes to doing employment
00:58:16
courses to getting their driver's
00:58:17
licenses and all of that and hopefully
00:58:19
those programs are still there and being
00:58:20
funded and if not I think they should be
00:58:23
because all of that help you you such a
00:58:25
positive guy you make it sound so simple
00:58:27
but like it really isn't like I suppose
00:58:30
for for you and your siblings it's like
00:58:31
you just had to get get to school and
00:58:33
take it from there but for like I'm just
00:58:35
trying to um picture myself in your
00:58:37
Dad's shoes like where do you where do
00:58:39
you begin suddenly you're you're in a
00:58:40
new country you're in a state house
00:58:41
you're on welfare um yeah how does he be
00:58:44
how does he build up his business from
00:58:45
there where does he begin that's that's
00:58:47
the that's the ultimate question right
00:58:49
there and I think there's some parts of
00:58:52
it and allow me to really kind of delve
00:58:55
into this a little bit please do when I
00:58:57
think about my dad I think of him as a
00:59:00
person entrepreneurial
00:59:03
hardworking incredibly determined
00:59:06
leader and of overall way more positive
00:59:11
very optimistic in his Outlook so when
00:59:14
he arrived here he realized that he had
00:59:16
mountains to climb learn the language
00:59:19
learn the culture get qualified get out
00:59:23
of state housing build a new life all of
00:59:25
that are mountain that he had to climb
00:59:27
and take us with
00:59:28
him but he looked at that as an
00:59:30
opportunity rather than an obstacle and
00:59:33
that has then kind of come down to me
00:59:35
and my siblings and us as well that you
00:59:37
look at something and either you shy
00:59:39
away from it because it's too daunting
00:59:40
it's too hard and that's him personal
00:59:42
right you can apply that to a 100
00:59:44
different people you get 100 different
00:59:45
results but because of who he is that's
00:59:48
then translated onto us and it's made us
00:59:51
and my siblings and and the Nazar family
00:59:53
who we are today so
00:59:56
to to answer your question it was him as
00:59:59
a leader and other families and and the
01:00:01
parents of of those those families they
01:00:03
said you know what don't look at this as
01:00:06
as some insurmountable Mountain that we
01:00:08
cannot climb but rather just small steps
01:00:11
day by day and we'll get there there are
01:00:13
others who would look at that and think
01:00:15
Noah it's all too bloody hard M it's the
01:00:18
obstacles are too hard I'm weighed down
01:00:20
by whatever trauma I've bought with me
01:00:23
it's I can't learn a language I'm
01:00:25
illiterate in my own language whatever
01:00:27
other hundred different excuses and
01:00:29
reasons you might have and some people
01:00:31
would look at that and think you know
01:00:32
what you're right and pour you and maybe
01:00:35
take on that victimhood mentality but
01:00:38
for us me I'll go the opposite way
01:00:40
because you say no that is a lot of work
01:00:42
but it's look at the opportunity rather
01:00:44
than looking at the obstacle and to
01:00:46
further and he did this to further
01:00:48
really Hammer his point home he said
01:00:50
would you rather be here in Christ
01:00:52
Church with the opportunity to learn a
01:00:55
new language and pick yourself up or
01:00:58
would you like to be detained on Naru
01:01:00
where you don't have that opportunity
01:01:01
cuz that's what happened to those people
01:01:02
who weren't resettled to New Zealand
01:01:04
they were detained and kept in detention
01:01:05
in Naru for like four or five years
01:01:07
before they were able to be resettled in
01:01:09
New Zealand that's disgraceful so that
01:01:11
that kind of gives you some perspective
01:01:12
you know so I guess to listeners to this
01:01:14
podcast you can apply that same
01:01:16
mentality like as was obviously being
01:01:18
the refugee experience but you can apply
01:01:20
that same mentality to whatever obstacle
01:01:21
they're going through right like the
01:01:23
opportunity is this an obstacle or is
01:01:25
this an opportunity yeah and for me and
01:01:26
my dad and my family and most of the
01:01:28
members of the Tampa community of course
01:01:30
it was hard but you know it could be so
01:01:33
much worse and that gives you some
01:01:35
perspective yeah yeah what about trauma
01:01:38
any trauma for you or nightmares or
01:01:40
anything or PTSD not for me I think I
01:01:43
was at that perfect age where I remember
01:01:45
enough but I don't remember some of the
01:01:48
heavier stuff uh lucky right yeah which
01:01:52
you older siblings or younger SI older
01:01:53
older I was one of the younger ones
01:01:55
older and and we we often talk about it
01:01:57
yeah um my older siblings definitely
01:02:00
remember more and I had to lean on them
01:02:02
a lot for for for the book uh but
01:02:05
overall I think largely positive largely
01:02:08
positive that uh and there were some
01:02:10
obviously that did have some trauma that
01:02:12
they've learned to unpack over time uh
01:02:15
but overall largely largely positive
01:02:17
yeah yeah yeah cuz you're a business
01:02:20
owner you own a couple of um bft gems
01:02:22
well you've done a heap of [ __ ] though
01:02:23
right you're a concrete layer for a
01:02:25
while uh you're an allright scholar I
01:02:28
I'm I'm not smart enough to even know
01:02:29
what that means yeah now honestly man
01:02:32
I've I've uh I've done a lot and I feel
01:02:35
like I've I've packed a bit in mostly
01:02:38
because I just look at that as just an
01:02:40
opportunity like I had the great Fortune
01:02:42
to go through the New Zealand education
01:02:43
system I worked at the New Zealand
01:02:45
treasury in Wellington for a while that
01:02:46
was eye opening just to kind of see how
01:02:48
government rolls or or doesn't work
01:02:50
sometimes um yeah full bright
01:02:52
scholarship to Georgetown University in
01:02:54
Washington DC I completed a Ms in
01:02:56
security studies so International
01:02:58
Security terrorism that kind of thing
01:03:00
and then uh I've always wanted to open
01:03:02
up my own gym and managed to set that up
01:03:04
so shout outs for the plug all right bft
01:03:07
Wellington Central and Wellington East
01:03:08
shout outs to all my members who might
01:03:10
be listening into this podcast and um
01:03:13
yeah wrote this book during lockdown
01:03:14
2020 I always joke that you know a lot
01:03:17
of people came out of lockdown and they
01:03:18
learned how to like bake bread and learn
01:03:20
how to juggle I wrote a bestselling book
01:03:22
so I'm pretty proud of that yeah yeah
01:03:24
yeah the book joke by the way I hope it
01:03:26
comes across I'm not that cocky the the
01:03:28
the book's done very well and it was um
01:03:30
released um yeah book publishers like to
01:03:33
put books out for Christmas or for
01:03:35
Father's Day or Mother's Day this was a
01:03:36
Father's Day book yeah uh so it's put
01:03:38
out the same time as um Sunny Bill's
01:03:40
book yeah Steve Hansen that's righton
01:03:42
Bridges Simon Bridges did you um did you
01:03:45
did you um you don't you don't know him
01:03:46
but you did you send Sunny Bill signed
01:03:48
copy Yeah man so mine went to number one
01:03:51
and it took the number one spot for ages
01:03:53
and I I sent sent his AG I think a sign
01:03:56
copy of the book and I said look you can
01:03:58
win them all mate and uh sign to busari
01:04:02
but I never received a sign copy back so
01:04:04
I don't know what to make of that but
01:04:05
that's all right that's all right but
01:04:07
you do kind of look like Sunny no I
01:04:09
could you not bro he's he's my favorite
01:04:11
rugby player growing up for sure yeah I
01:04:13
played centers so um I believe you were
01:04:16
right too like can can canbury sort of
01:04:18
wck level uh made a few trials that's
01:04:20
for sure but definitely not big enough
01:04:23
uh for can's tough man like I got to
01:04:25
give credit like the canaby rugby system
01:04:27
is just a pipeline that produces Talent
01:04:30
um and uh tough tough Academy to be in
01:04:33
but it was good fun yeah and and what
01:04:35
about Helen Clark have you met her yeah
01:04:37
I met her a couple of times um she she
01:04:39
was one of the first to read the book
01:04:40
and I think she's reviewed it I think
01:04:42
there's a quote from her uh on the front
01:04:44
um so she was a prime minister at the
01:04:46
time and she's given multiple interviews
01:04:49
about the Tampa Saga and how it impacted
01:04:52
her and and the beauty about it is that
01:04:54
once she left office and she went and
01:04:56
did you know all sorts of things at the
01:04:57
UN and whatnot she's still in touch with
01:05:00
a lot of the Tampa communities cuz a few
01:05:02
of them were resettled in Oakland and
01:05:04
quite a few of us in Christ Church and
01:05:06
she's made an effort to to catch up and
01:05:09
and keep those continuations keep those
01:05:11
contacts alive uh I remember
01:05:12
specifically in uh 21 when the Taliban
01:05:16
retook Afghanistan she was on the
01:05:17
Forefront of advocacy doing a bit of
01:05:19
fundraising and doing just kind of
01:05:21
raising awareness about what was
01:05:23
happening there we were on a few panels
01:05:25
together on online at the time and um
01:05:28
just you know immensely proud of her
01:05:31
decision making throughout that time but
01:05:33
also I think she's very proud of us and
01:05:35
our community and how we flourished in
01:05:37
New Zealand you guys have really sort of
01:05:38
like um repaid her for her decision yeah
01:05:41
100 which was maybe a tough decision at
01:05:42
the time I I don't know I I can't
01:05:44
remember what the politics of at the
01:05:46
time or how we were received but thanks
01:05:48
for bringing that up man like I often
01:05:50
get put as the face of like Refugee
01:05:52
success just because of the book and and
01:05:54
a few other things but
01:05:56
I always always try and give it back and
01:05:58
say you know you've made it if you
01:06:00
arrived here in New Zealand as a refugee
01:06:03
and just look at the Tampa Community
01:06:05
most of them in Christ Church they are
01:06:08
business owners and they are Builders a
01:06:10
lot of them are in the trades tiling and
01:06:12
painting and plumbing and that kind of
01:06:14
thing they they have mortgages they have
01:06:16
kids in school a few of the uh girls
01:06:19
especially have gone into nursing a few
01:06:20
of them have gone into policing and real
01:06:22
estate and they are part and parcel of
01:06:25
good old middle class New Zealand right
01:06:28
they have kids that are born here that
01:06:30
hardly speak their own mother tongue
01:06:32
they can't speak foresy because their
01:06:33
lives are in New Zealand they have
01:06:35
Properties or their rent some of them
01:06:37
have gone down the mental health system
01:06:39
some of them have gone down the justice
01:06:41
system some of them are either
01:06:44
multi-millionaires and others are still
01:06:46
on on social welfare and the reason I
01:06:49
highlight that is that they are part and
01:06:51
parcel of middle class New Zealand so
01:06:53
you arrive here you put your head down
01:06:55
you get to work and you become part of
01:06:58
the cloak of of of society m not all of
01:07:01
it will be a massive success story but
01:07:04
you don't want to just focus on the
01:07:05
pointy end right you want to focus on
01:07:07
what's in the middle and by and large
01:07:09
the middle is just good old kiwis yeah
01:07:12
you you and your family like it's just
01:07:14
um bloody hard work isn't it yeah it's
01:07:16
hard work there's hard running a
01:07:18
business in New Zealand is freaking hard
01:07:20
but eternally grateful like I think if
01:07:22
there's one thing that listeners of this
01:07:24
podcast or readers of my book can get is
01:07:26
just there is immense gratitude and and
01:07:30
there should be like enormously grateful
01:07:32
for the opportunity to rebuild a new
01:07:34
life here but it's also given us
01:07:36
perspective that how good how lucky are
01:07:38
we to call New Zealand home like
01:07:40
honestly like having gone through what
01:07:42
we went through having given having been
01:07:46
given the perspective of life in new Ze
01:07:48
in Afghanistan and what our trajectory
01:07:50
could have been versus what we have now
01:07:54
man you can't be filled with nothing but
01:07:55
gratitude like of how lucky we are and
01:07:58
it's sometimes like it's really good to
01:07:59
remind ourselves as kiwis that yeah of
01:08:02
course this country does have its
01:08:04
problems but it's also nice to just kind
01:08:06
of step back and say you know what
01:08:08
despite that she's pretty good she's all
01:08:10
right did do you think some some of us
01:08:12
in New Zealand are a little bit
01:08:13
ungrateful like for being born into
01:08:15
privilege and not being aware of how
01:08:17
good we've got it I think so I think
01:08:19
it's
01:08:21
it's it's always nice to take a step
01:08:23
back and say despite the troubles that
01:08:25
I'm in
01:08:25
just really big picture it's not all
01:08:28
that bad and you don't want to make
01:08:30
light of people's issues but they do
01:08:32
need a bit of a slap in the face to say
01:08:34
come on bro like it's not that bad you
01:08:36
know yeah that's the uh that's the BF
01:08:40
coming out give give them a um how were
01:08:43
the how were the earthquakes for you uh
01:08:46
yeah man 201 2010 2011 I was in school
01:08:48
you're like 16 17 at time yeah I was
01:08:50
Burn High School our school was ended up
01:08:53
being used as one of those kind of
01:08:54
recovery centers so one of the the civil
01:08:56
defense centers you must be like not
01:08:58
again yeah yeah so um no they were I
01:09:02
guess traumatizing for every canaban but
01:09:04
and even though I'm based in Wellington
01:09:06
now um I love going back down I try to
01:09:09
go back down at least once a month or so
01:09:11
and I love what the city has become y
01:09:13
it's still going through that
01:09:14
transformation phase but for anyone
01:09:16
who's gone down to cross street recently
01:09:17
it's a beautiful city and I think
01:09:18
longterm I reckon uh we end up basing
01:09:21
ourselves back there yeah that's
01:09:23
brilliant and on your you're married and
01:09:25
you've got a baby on the way yeah yeah
01:09:27
so Jen and I got married last year and
01:09:30
now expecting uh a baby in a few months
01:09:32
so that's going to be the next chapter
01:09:33
of Life man congratulations that's going
01:09:35
to be that's going to be really
01:09:36
interesting I was thinking about that
01:09:37
earlier um I suppose there'll be
01:09:40
Milestones a lot do you know if it's a
01:09:41
son or a daughter you have girl girl
01:09:43
girl yeah yeah there be Milestones along
01:09:46
her life like when she's seven you'll be
01:09:48
like [ __ ] that's the age I was hopefully
01:09:50
they'll give me some perspective of what
01:09:52
my parents went through and they kind of
01:09:54
went on our journey to bring us here for
01:09:56
sure yeah what what what did um how did
01:09:59
you meet Jen uh University canbury yeah
01:10:01
we were both at at Uni together and you
01:10:04
know classic met and did you did you
01:10:07
tell did you tell her a lot of stuff or
01:10:08
she end up reading it in the book or she
01:10:11
uh that you did a quick Google I think
01:10:13
no I remember no here's the thing I'm
01:10:16
pretty sure we were in a lecture once on
01:10:19
migration and uh the the lecturer put up
01:10:23
a photo of the Tampa and I was sitting
01:10:26
next to her and I think I mentioned or
01:10:28
maybe I P my hand up or said something
01:10:30
like hey I'm on that boat and everyone
01:10:33
cracked up because they they thought I
01:10:34
was joking and then I was like no no I'm
01:10:37
serious guys I was on that boat and they
01:10:38
were like no you weren't and then I told
01:10:40
the full story and they're like what the
01:10:42
actual [ __ ] but um no that's how we met
01:10:45
and you been together you know how seven
01:10:47
eight years now yeah it's kind that's
01:10:49
amazing oh congratulations yeah no thank
01:10:51
you ge you're so um you've got so much
01:10:54
gratitude eh yeah I think such a
01:10:56
positive dude yeah like I don't I don't
01:10:58
want to you know make light of people's
01:11:00
problems and that but I think one of the
01:11:03
best things that come out of the
01:11:05
whole journey that we were on was that
01:11:09
it gave us a sense of perspective that
01:11:11
things can be so much worse that if we
01:11:15
had chosen to if we had chosen had we
01:11:17
stayed in
01:11:18
Afghanistan I don't know if I'd be alive
01:11:20
right now I don't know if I would have
01:11:22
all of my limbs I could have stepped on
01:11:23
a roadside bomb right
01:11:25
um I don't know if I would be like the
01:11:27
the prospect for a young Afghan male is
01:11:30
terrible they fall into drug addiction
01:11:33
they might go down hope I don't know
01:11:35
National Security rout join the military
01:11:37
assuming they survive I don't know like
01:11:39
it is dismal at best so I look at where
01:11:43
I am right now and the opportunities
01:11:44
we've been given I think how different
01:11:46
my life could have been and so once you
01:11:49
kind of take full stock of all of that
01:11:51
then there's no no chance but to be a
01:11:54
bit more optimistic and a bit more
01:11:56
positive and I think if we all kind of
01:11:59
maybe put on that perspective and put on
01:12:02
that kind of filter it it definitely
01:12:04
goes a long way I think also equally
01:12:08
there are a lot of people who who love
01:12:10
to highlight a negative story that that
01:12:13
it's all about racism this and
01:12:15
victimhood that and all of this and like
01:12:18
I say you don't want to you don't want
01:12:20
to downplay that aspect cuz it is the
01:12:22
truth for some people but it's not the
01:12:25
truth for everyone like I think of our
01:12:28
growing up in Christ Church and Christ
01:12:30
kids a bad rap for being a white City
01:12:32
you know it's a racist this and all of
01:12:34
that but I'm I'm the proudest you know
01:12:36
Canaan there was because I love that
01:12:38
City it's made me who I am uh today the
01:12:42
community that embraced us I'm still
01:12:44
friends with my childhood friends that
01:12:45
went to ricked and Primary School um
01:12:48
overall just like an incredibly
01:12:50
incredibly beautiful place to grow up
01:12:52
and uh have the privilege of growing up
01:12:54
there
01:12:55
and having now traveled the world a
01:12:57
little bit and lived in different cities
01:12:59
you kind of realize that New Zealand is
01:13:01
pretty special like we always kind of
01:13:02
put down ourselves that all the kiwis
01:13:04
are moving to Aussie this and that but I
01:13:06
reckon this is the place to be once you
01:13:08
live and work overseas for a while you
01:13:09
realize that we have it pretty good here
01:13:12
yeah so there's no doubt but to be
01:13:14
positive I guess I don't know final
01:13:16
words if there's one thing I want
01:13:18
listeners to this podcast to get it's
01:13:20
that one refugees you know think of of
01:13:24
of course I don't want you to forget get
01:13:25
that it is an incredibly traumatizing
01:13:27
and and victimizing experience but in
01:13:30
equal measure there is an element of
01:13:31
strength there as well you know
01:13:34
especially given you know this June 20th
01:13:36
World Refugee day two that um overall
01:13:41
you know there is an immense sense of
01:13:42
gratitude from the refugee communities
01:13:45
particularly the the Tampa community
01:13:47
that were resettled that the ability to
01:13:49
be given a chance to resettle in New
01:13:50
Zealand we've made the most of it and we
01:13:52
we've grasped it with both hands and
01:13:53
most importantly we've paid uh our Our
01:13:56
obligation back and three uh to to to go
01:14:00
buy my
01:14:03
book see that's the most profound one
01:14:06
right I was like oh these are getting
01:14:09
bitter and bitter what's number three
01:14:10
going to be you're a bloody salesman
01:14:12
doing my best oh I think that is a
01:14:15
wonderful place to end it this has been
01:14:17
inspiring man like how how can you hear
01:14:19
the story and not be not be pumped up
01:14:21
and want to get more out of your own
01:14:23
life seriously no thanks so much and
01:14:26
final word I swear there's no more after
01:14:27
this when I got given the chance to
01:14:29
write my story I actually said no like I
01:14:31
turned it down solely because I didn't
01:14:35
know if there would be interest I didn't
01:14:37
know if I wanted to to share my story
01:14:39
out like that or if it would be received
01:14:42
very well but now I get given the
01:14:44
opportunity given the platform like this
01:14:45
to share my story and I love it mostly
01:14:48
because there'll be thousands of
01:14:49
listeners of this podcast who will walk
01:14:52
away and think holy crap I've learned so
01:14:54
much much about Afghanistan I've learned
01:14:56
so much about refugees I didn't know
01:14:58
what they go through what do they feel
01:15:01
like about New Zealand do they love the
01:15:02
place do they hate the place you know
01:15:05
and so listeners of this are now all
01:15:07
educated about you know maybe one
01:15:09
person's perspective on it and and
01:15:12
that's a privilege so thanks so much for
01:15:13
giving me the platform and thanks so
01:15:15
much for listening abas nazari uh thank
01:15:17
you so much for coming on the podcast
01:15:19
appreciate it guys thank you all right
01:15:20
last thing you want to spell that word
01:15:22
that word that [ __ ] you up in the
01:15:23
spelling be silhouetted
01:15:25
I'm about to mess it up right now how do
01:15:27
you is that so now let's go s i l h o u
01:15:32
e TDE e d let's go baby I feel like
01:15:35
you're more traumatized by that than
01:15:36
most of the other I had to prove it to
01:15:38
myself that I still got it thanks so
01:15:41
much team
01:15:55
a
