00:00:00
I remember when my
00:00:04
mother rang me and she said, I can
00:00:07
remember exactly where I was in Takani,
00:00:11
husband and I, I was in the passenger
00:00:12
seat. We were driving over the railway
00:00:14
crossing and my mother rang and she
00:00:17
said, "Your brother's got bowel cancer."
00:00:19
And straight away in my head, I went,
00:00:21
"Oh my god, he's going to die." Not
00:00:23
knowing what stage it was, not knowing
00:00:25
anything.
00:00:28
And it was a two years.
00:00:32
And one of the biggest regrets
00:00:37
that I have
00:00:39
is the day that he was told it was going
00:00:42
to be terminal. I said nothing. I was in
00:00:45
the room and I I didn't know what to
00:00:47
say.
00:00:49
Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:51
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:53
there's a top performance in New
00:00:54
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:56
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:58
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:00
hole in one in two.
00:01:03
>> He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:05
performance going?
00:01:06
>> Top tier.
00:01:07
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here
00:01:09
you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:10
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:12
investments. Get in here.
00:01:14
>> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:16
>> Putting performance first.
00:01:18
>> Jenny May Clarkson. Welcome to my
00:01:20
podcast.
00:01:20
>> It is a pleasure. Seriously, I'm
00:01:22
grateful for the opportunity to sit and
00:01:23
have a chat.
00:01:24
>> Oh yeah. Why? just because I'm a nobody
00:01:27
now
00:01:28
and any chance I get to I don't know
00:01:33
tell my story um to have conversation
00:01:38
yeah I'm up for it so I appreciate it
00:01:40
yeah I
00:01:41
>> I just want to pull you up on something
00:01:42
first of all um you're you're not a
00:01:44
nobody and you'll never be a nobody like
00:01:46
my research in doing this it's like um
00:01:48
yeah almost a decade in the silver ferns
00:01:50
vice captaincy
00:01:52
>> uh I was part of a senior players group
00:01:54
I'm not sure I was vice captain. I can't
00:01:56
remember. That was a long time ago.
00:01:58
>> God, this is going to be hard work,
00:01:59
isn't it? A Commonwealth Games Medal.
00:02:01
You were part of the New Zealand Police
00:02:02
for um the best part of a decade. Um
00:02:05
you've you had this highprofile media
00:02:07
career and I think you were so
00:02:08
successful in media that a lot of people
00:02:10
forgot about like the sporting the
00:02:12
sporting platform that led from one
00:02:15
thing to another.
00:02:16
>> I forgot. I forgot, but a lot of people
00:02:19
didn't actually. It was amazing the
00:02:21
amount of times that I would turn up,
00:02:24
you know, was doing media work and
00:02:26
they'd go, "You're the former Silver
00:02:29
Fern." And it still happens today. And
00:02:32
I'm kind of like, man, that was like 30,
00:02:35
well, not quite, 25 years ago. Um, so
00:02:38
it's a part of my life that I don't
00:02:40
know, I tend to compartmentalize
00:02:42
everything that happened such a long
00:02:44
time ago. But again, I mean, it's cool
00:02:46
that people remember me from those days
00:02:49
and some specifically how I used to
00:02:52
play.
00:02:52
>> Um, so yeah, left an impression
00:02:55
somewhere along the line.
00:02:57
>> So your silver ferns, by the way, I've
00:02:59
got cards here with chapters on, so we
00:03:01
are going to go in sort of order, but
00:03:02
okay. Did you you you were a a cop while
00:03:04
a silver fern?
00:03:05
>> Yeah.
00:03:05
>> Those two sort of
00:03:08
>> police officer before
00:03:10
>> before a silver fern.
00:03:11
>> So I joined when I was 19. Yeah. M did
00:03:14
your career, your silver ferns playing
00:03:16
career overlap with um Bernie who I had
00:03:18
on the podcast last year, Bernice Mini.
00:03:19
Did she ever outsource any of her school
00:03:21
homework to you? Did she get you doing
00:03:23
any marking or
00:03:25
>> Actually, no. But Bernie gave me my
00:03:30
Silver Ferns uniform. She was already in
00:03:33
the team cuz she was a baby when she
00:03:35
made it.
00:03:36
>> Yeah. 17, I think.
00:03:37
>> Yeah. And uh you know when you first get
00:03:41
into the team and you're in a series
00:03:43
you're handed your uniform back in those
00:03:44
days it was by one of the players and
00:03:46
she gave me my very first um silver
00:03:49
fern's uniform which was a huge honor
00:03:52
even you know she was young but she had
00:03:55
had so much experience by that by that
00:03:57
time but um you know she never
00:04:00
outsourced. Thank god she she didn't to
00:04:02
be perfectly honest. Jesus she would
00:04:04
have done better on her own.
00:04:07
So, um, yeah, most recently, so we're
00:04:09
recording this in, um, I suppose mid to
00:04:11
late January, and it was 2 months ago,
00:04:13
uh, 20th of November, 2025 that you
00:04:15
finished on Breakfast TV after
00:04:17
>> date even
00:04:17
>> after five, six years there.
00:04:19
>> Um, and at the time you said you were
00:04:21
excited, anxious, scared, but ready.
00:04:24
>> Yeah.
00:04:24
>> 2 months on
00:04:25
>> all of those things still. M
00:04:27
>> um it's been a really interesting period
00:04:33
and I think largely because I've
00:04:38
always had things on the go. Um
00:04:42
I'm in something and then I'm into
00:04:45
something else.
00:04:47
That didn't happen this time. So, it's
00:04:50
been a couple of months of me trying to
00:04:53
figure out what is the next step for me.
00:04:57
Uh,
00:04:58
I think the first week I
00:05:02
was just enjoying the sleepins
00:05:05
and then I said the second week I'm
00:05:07
going to get into my routine. I'll get
00:05:09
up at4 to 6:00 in the morning. I'll get
00:05:11
out to the gym. I'll do my journaling.
00:05:14
Um, have breakfast and then get ready
00:05:17
for the day ahead because we're still on
00:05:18
school holidays, right?
00:05:20
So I did that in the second week and
00:05:22
then in the third week which is around
00:05:24
Christmas time or leading into Christmas
00:05:26
everything all the wheels fell off
00:05:29
and that for me yeah it was an
00:05:32
interesting time because I was trying to
00:05:34
figure out what was what actually was
00:05:38
going to fit for me. I didn't have to
00:05:40
get up at a set time. I didn't have a a
00:05:43
job to go to.
00:05:45
So what now? What does my life look
00:05:47
like? what does my dayto-day look like?
00:05:50
And it was all good for me to put in um
00:05:52
a routine at a couple of weeks after,
00:05:56
you know, leaving um a company that I'd
00:05:58
been with for 20 years,
00:06:01
>> been getting up at 3:30 in the morning
00:06:03
for 6 years
00:06:05
and all of a sudden that
00:06:08
that routine was gone. So, I was trying
00:06:10
to find my own. And if I reflect back
00:06:14
now,
00:06:17
it was probably uh not a dumb thing to
00:06:20
do, but I think I was a little bit naive
00:06:23
and how
00:06:25
everything would unfold.
00:06:27
I was trying to create something, but I
00:06:29
didn't actually know what the endg game
00:06:31
was.
00:06:32
Um
00:06:34
I feel like I'm getting there, but I'm
00:06:37
still trying to figure out what my day
00:06:39
today looks like.
00:06:42
And for me trying to create my own
00:06:45
business,
00:06:48
I'm not so, and again, this has taken a
00:06:52
couple months, I'm not so stuck on what
00:06:54
my dayto-day should look like. At the
00:06:56
moment, I'm in the midst of school
00:06:58
holidays, right? Got two nine-year-old
00:07:00
boys. Our two big girls have come back
00:07:03
uh to Oakland, so they're staying with
00:07:05
us as well. And so trying to figure out
00:07:08
all those dynamics that are going on in
00:07:09
the house whilst also trying to figure
00:07:11
out what I'm doing. It's a lot going on.
00:07:14
And so there have been a lot of highs, a
00:07:15
lot of lows, a lot of me going, what is
00:07:17
it that I'm doing? What's creating
00:07:19
meaning in my life? All of those big,
00:07:21
you know, questions whilst trying to
00:07:23
live and get things done on a day-to-day
00:07:26
basis. And so I've come to a space now
00:07:29
where I'm still trying to create what
00:07:31
the future looks like,
00:07:33
>> but I'm actually less structured about
00:07:36
it at the moment. Doesn't mean I'm not
00:07:38
working. It doesn't mean that when I
00:07:39
have an hour, I'm in there and I'm I'm
00:07:41
working on things, but what it does mean
00:07:44
for me is actually changing my mindset
00:07:47
of I don't have a 9 to5. I don't have a
00:07:50
3:00 a.m. till 10:00 a.m. and then a
00:07:53
2:00 p.m. to a 78 p.m. That life no
00:07:56
longer exists. And what I create is
00:07:59
entirely up to me. That's a very
00:08:01
difficult thing to get your head around
00:08:03
when you've done it for so long. And so
00:08:06
for me, it's just going, "Okay, just
00:08:08
calm down, Jay, and roll roll with how
00:08:13
whatever the day brings. And when you
00:08:15
have a moment, take it. And when you
00:08:17
don't, you just, you know, have to get
00:08:19
by
00:08:21
>> looking after the boys and doing what
00:08:23
you need to do.
00:08:25
>> Can I just say,
00:08:26
>> yeah,
00:08:27
>> I actually think I look like [ __ ] this
00:08:28
morning because I had a rough night last
00:08:30
night. As my son would say, he crashed
00:08:32
out. And if you have young children,
00:08:35
you'll know what that means. Anyway, he
00:08:36
had a bit of a meltdown. I had a
00:08:38
meltdown. He couldn't regulate. I
00:08:40
couldn't regulate. Thankfully, my
00:08:41
husband stepped in the middle. Got up,
00:08:43
four kids at home, trying to clean
00:08:45
everything. dropped them off at a mate's
00:08:46
place. Didn't know didn't do my hair,
00:08:48
didn't do my makeup. And I thought, you
00:08:50
know what? This is just life, man. Um,
00:08:52
and I'm not going to stress myself out
00:08:54
by trying to throw on a little bit of
00:08:55
makeup here and there just so that I can
00:08:58
pretend in front of everybody else that,
00:08:59
you know, this is just how I look every
00:09:01
single day. No, this is how I look every
00:09:03
single day,
00:09:04
>> minus the track track pants.
00:09:06
>> I I think I think you look fantastic and
00:09:08
I love the authenticity. Actually, just
00:09:09
before we started recording this
00:09:11
podcast, we uh we had a a brief chat
00:09:13
about glasses. Um I'm I'm in the glasses
00:09:16
gang now. Do do you need it for driving
00:09:18
for for seeing me for read it? For
00:09:20
everything?
00:09:20
>> Yes. Yeah, for everything. So I've got
00:09:22
progressives. So when I was on telly
00:09:25
because you had your bits of paper in
00:09:27
front of you, you had to be able to see
00:09:28
that far, but then you've also got the
00:09:30
auto quue which is a distance away. So I
00:09:33
had to, you know, top bit for distance,
00:09:36
the bottom bit for actual reading. And
00:09:39
now I managed to get myself some uh
00:09:44
sunglasses. Progressive sunglasses. Game
00:09:46
changer. You know when you walk around
00:09:48
in a mall and you see people with
00:09:50
sunglasses on, you think, "What a dick."
00:09:51
It's like you're not outside. I do that
00:09:54
now because I drive to the mall or
00:09:56
wherever and I leave on my sunglasses
00:09:58
because they're progressives and I can
00:10:00
see.
00:10:01
>> So don't mock them is what I'm saying.
00:10:02
>> No, I I think I got to 48 without
00:10:05
glasses and I said to a friend of mine
00:10:06
who's a couple years older, I said, "I
00:10:07
think I've um dodged a bullet. like my
00:10:09
eyesight's still good. And she's like,
00:10:10
"No, nobody nobody dodges the bullet."
00:10:13
No.
00:10:13
>> And then sure enough, a couple of years
00:10:14
later,
00:10:15
>> found myself in the in the the magazine
00:10:17
and card section of the supermarket
00:10:19
where the glasses are, and there was no
00:10:20
one else there. So, I thought, I'm going
00:10:21
to try some on. Put them on. Oh my god,
00:10:24
it's a game changer.
00:10:25
>> Yeah. Well, it's ego that stops you from
00:10:27
doing it in the first place. Oh, it's
00:10:28
fine. I can see everything. It's It's
00:10:30
fine as you're doing this kind of
00:10:32
business. But yeah, I think when was
00:10:34
mine? about 40 45 46 I think it was
00:10:37
>> when my eyesight started to go.
00:10:40
>> Um I didn't have an issue with it. I
00:10:42
tried what do you call them?
00:10:46
I
00:10:46
>> was going to say cataracts but they're
00:10:47
not contacts. Can't do that. Can't do
00:10:49
that.
00:10:50
>> But um yeah, if I take my glasses off,
00:10:52
you're blurry. Yeah,
00:10:55
>> it's better that way. Keep them keep
00:10:56
them up.
00:10:57
>> Keep them up. Um
00:10:59
>> no, I won't.
00:11:00
>> I actually saw uh there was a post on
00:11:01
your Instagram just yesterday. Uh it was
00:11:03
like something that you reshared and I
00:11:05
just want to know if there's something
00:11:06
in this. Um you're not stuck because you
00:11:08
don't know what to do.
00:11:10
>> You're stuck because you know what to do
00:11:11
but you're not doing it
00:11:12
>> 100%. How many of us are walking around
00:11:14
like that? We're stuck in what we're
00:11:17
doing which is where I think I was too
00:11:20
with breakfast. Stuck in it because it
00:11:23
gave me certainty. It gave me stability.
00:11:26
It gave me a steady income which
00:11:28
therefore I could take care of my
00:11:31
family. Um, but I knew I wanted
00:11:35
something else and so I stayed in there
00:11:38
probably a year at least too late
00:11:43
feeling like
00:11:46
you were grateful for everything that it
00:11:48
gave you, but that you were yearning for
00:11:50
something else.
00:11:51
>> And there's so many of us, I think, that
00:11:54
>> are living that life right now.
00:11:56
>> Absolutely.
00:11:57
>> And many of us want to step out of it,
00:11:59
but we just don't know how.
00:12:02
or the responsibilities are so great
00:12:04
that we don't, you know, we don't see a
00:12:07
way out of the situation that we're in.
00:12:09
And I've talked about this before. It
00:12:10
took me a couple of years to actually be
00:12:13
able to walk away
00:12:16
um from what I was doing. And it took a
00:12:20
lot of uh work on separating my identity
00:12:23
out from my work. It took a lot of
00:12:26
planning about what is going to be the
00:12:27
next step. Even though that wasn't fully
00:12:30
realized when I did finish, but I knew
00:12:34
the pathway that I wanted to go on and I
00:12:37
was able to prepare myself to the best
00:12:40
that I could
00:12:42
um before leaving.
00:12:45
But yeah, and I'm I'm really passionate
00:12:48
about that now because I I understand
00:12:50
how long it took me. And then the more
00:12:52
conversations I have with people,
00:12:54
whether that's online, whether that's
00:12:55
just, you know, talking with mates,
00:12:59
there are so many who feel exactly the
00:13:01
same way. They're just stuck in what
00:13:02
they're doing and they're not satisfied.
00:13:05
They're not being fulfilled, but it's
00:13:07
it's fulfilling a need, right? And that
00:13:09
need is stability. It's income. It's
00:13:12
paying the bills. And that's tough right
00:13:14
now for a lot of people. And so to walk
00:13:17
away from something that gives you that
00:13:19
stability sounds crazy.
00:13:22
And I haven't fully realized
00:13:25
the impact
00:13:27
of me finally
00:13:31
becoming unstuck.
00:13:34
But I have this huge belief that it is
00:13:37
the absolute best thing that I could
00:13:40
have done and figuring out the next
00:13:42
steps. uh just progression towards
00:13:44
creating this kind of life that I want.
00:13:47
>> Oh, so you've got the data from your
00:13:48
half century on Earth that like whatever
00:13:51
you put your mind to, you can do.
00:13:52
>> 100%.
00:13:53
>> Yeah, you can do it. And there's there's
00:13:55
that saying I really like um a ship is
00:13:57
safe in the harbor, but that's not what
00:13:58
ships are for.
00:13:59
>> Yeah. And it's it's about going out and
00:14:02
creating adventures for yourself, right?
00:14:04
And if you stay close to the harbor,
00:14:06
that's never going to happen for you.
00:14:08
>> So I understand the fear that is there
00:14:10
for people. And so I do talk a lot about
00:14:14
it's just creating one step every single
00:14:16
day towards becoming unstuck. We know
00:14:19
what we want. We don't have to have a
00:14:21
clear vision of what that looks like.
00:14:23
God, I have no idea. I mean, I have this
00:14:26
vision of what kind of lifestyle I want
00:14:28
to create. I don't need a lot of things
00:14:31
for me. My priority is my family and my
00:14:34
sons and and our big girls and creating,
00:14:37
you know, a future for them. And I'm not
00:14:40
talking about moneywise. I'm just
00:14:42
talking about
00:14:45
them believing in themselves and that
00:14:46
they can create their own future. If
00:14:48
they don't want to work for somebody,
00:14:49
well, don't. But what is the next
00:14:51
pathway?
00:14:53
And opening their minds up to a
00:14:56
different way. And so for me, that is a
00:14:59
priority. But again, you know, I still
00:15:01
have to pay bills.
00:15:03
We still have to be able to put food on
00:15:06
the table. And so, you know, my husband
00:15:08
runs a um a charity and so we've, you
00:15:13
know, between that and me not working,
00:15:16
there's
00:15:19
there's a lot for us to be figuring out.
00:15:24
>> But we're both committed to him living
00:15:27
his
00:15:28
uh fulfilling his dreams, and there's me
00:15:31
trying to figure out what that looks
00:15:33
like for me as well. And we're both
00:15:35
committed to that. And doing that
00:15:38
hopefully we can teach our children that
00:15:40
there is different ways of being able to
00:15:43
live your life and you can create that.
00:15:47
>> Yeah, that's really powerful.
00:15:49
>> Um, it's role modeling in a way. Show
00:15:52
some courage 100%. But you know, again,
00:15:56
man, I've got no idea what the future is
00:15:58
going to look like. But what I do know
00:16:00
is that I'm in a space now where I can
00:16:04
create that. And I'm really in even
00:16:07
though there's uncertainty and, you
00:16:10
know, there's a little bit of fear
00:16:11
wrapped up in all of that,
00:16:13
>> it's an exciting space to be in as well
00:16:16
and trying to figure out everything day
00:16:18
by day.
00:16:19
>> Yeah.
00:16:20
>> Yeah. and and the mountains that you've
00:16:22
made it to the top of before, you don't
00:16:23
just decide one day you're going to go
00:16:24
to the top of the mountain and get
00:16:25
there. You have to do the do the steps.
00:16:27
>> I still think that though.
00:16:29
>> Yeah. So, I suppose now you're you're at
00:16:31
you're at base camp and it's just
00:16:32
deciding what direction of the mountain
00:16:34
to to go up for the next summit.
00:16:37
>> Yeah.
00:16:38
again. I mean, I I I know where I know
00:16:41
where I'm heading in terms of I know
00:16:44
that I want to do something meaningful
00:16:46
and I can do that
00:16:49
because of all the experiences that I've
00:16:51
had and to be able to share that.
00:16:54
>> Um,
00:16:57
and my whole life has been, you know, I
00:17:00
started out doing sport science and then
00:17:02
I went into the police force when I was
00:17:04
19. While I was there, I studied as a
00:17:06
teacher at Wakato University. Then I was
00:17:08
doing some radio and then I was doing a
00:17:12
little bit of uh net commentary and then
00:17:14
I was doing sports news and then you
00:17:17
know and there's been all of these
00:17:18
things that have happened along the way
00:17:20
which have been amazing because I've not
00:17:22
stood still. I've always kind of tried
00:17:24
to put myself into environments where I
00:17:27
feel very uncomfortable.
00:17:29
But the flip side of that too is that I
00:17:31
always have something that's next. next.
00:17:34
That's next. And then all of a sudden in
00:17:37
my life, there's there's a next, but I
00:17:39
haven't figured out what that next, you
00:17:41
know, what the clear clear picture is of
00:17:44
what is next. And so that in itself has
00:17:48
created some anxiety for me because I've
00:17:50
had all of these things and I've gone,
00:17:52
"Yep, that's the next thing. Yep, that's
00:17:54
the next thing. Yep, that's the next
00:17:55
thing. Yep, that's the next thing." J
00:17:57
walking out of, you know, um, a job.
00:18:01
But actually, there's no real clear.
00:18:03
It's a bit foggy.
00:18:05
>> So,
00:18:07
it's had its, you know, benefits. And
00:18:09
now I'm experiencing the flip side of
00:18:11
that and the uncertainty.
00:18:15
But in everything that I've done,
00:18:17
there's always been some kind of fear in
00:18:18
it
00:18:19
>> and I'm in that space now.
00:18:21
>> So, I'm okay with it. I'm comfortable in
00:18:23
it.
00:18:24
>> Yeah.
00:18:24
>> By the way, it's happened twice so far.
00:18:25
I love how you refer to yourself as Jay.
00:18:28
>> Oh, yeah.
00:18:30
>> Yeah. Is it is it like a Yeah. Like
00:18:33
almost like an alter ego thing or is it
00:18:36
>> Yeah, potentially. I think it's just the
00:18:37
way that I kind of, you know, over the
00:18:39
years I've spoken to myself. Um, and
00:18:42
again, I go back to this confidence
00:18:44
piece and, you know, in moments where
00:18:46
I've lacked some confidence in moments
00:18:48
where I've been a little bit anxious and
00:18:49
having to talk to myself and go, "Come
00:18:51
on, Jamie, you've got this." I don't
00:18:53
know. I guess I I still continue to do
00:18:55
that, you know, and have done for years.
00:18:56
>> I love it. All right. Um, jeez, a hell
00:18:59
of a chat already.
00:19:00
>> I know. Sorry.
00:19:00
>> Okay. No, no, no. It's good. There's
00:19:02
There's a You're such a captivating
00:19:04
speaker. I'm hanging off every word.
00:19:06
Okay. But let let's go all the way back.
00:19:08
9th of April, 1974.
00:19:10
>> God.
00:19:11
>> Earliest memories. Jay.
00:19:16
>> Growing up. No. Yes. Moving into our
00:19:21
first home that mom and dad owned in
00:19:24
Pure
00:19:26
and getting a TV. And it was the big TV
00:19:30
that sat on the ground with the No, the
00:19:32
speakers were on the side and the remote
00:19:35
and having a remote for the television.
00:19:37
>> You had a remote.
00:19:38
>> We had a remote that you put into the TV
00:19:40
and then you pushed it and it came out.
00:19:44
That was pretty exciting. Um, that's my
00:19:48
earliest memory. I would have been about
00:19:51
three prior to that. No clues. I think I
00:19:55
was just pushed around by my brothers
00:19:57
and my sister and Yeah.
00:19:59
>> Yeah. Cuz you're the baby of the family.
00:20:01
Six kids. Yeah.
00:20:02
>> So, five older five older siblings. And
00:20:04
your parents ran the clover leaf dairy?
00:20:05
>> Yeah. For a little while. My dad was a
00:20:07
um truck driver for a number of years
00:20:10
before they took over managing the
00:20:12
clover leaf dairy. Just still there.
00:20:14
Still in the main town of Pure.
00:20:16
>> Um
00:20:16
>> what was that like? That would have been
00:20:17
my dream at that age having parents that
00:20:19
owned a dairy.
00:20:20
>> Seriously. So good. I would go to
00:20:22
school,
00:20:23
call in, grab my lunch, and head off to
00:20:26
school or come home for lunch, have a
00:20:30
burger and fries and a coke, and then
00:20:32
head back to school again. Yeah, it was
00:20:34
very cool, but it was long hours. You
00:20:36
know, mom and dad were gone before I got
00:20:38
up for school.
00:20:40
>> Yeah. 5:00 a.m. starts.
00:20:42
>> Oh, earlier than that, because I'd open
00:20:43
the shop up for um truckies that would
00:20:46
drive through cuz it's on the main
00:20:47
highway. So they'd be gone, nobody home.
00:20:51
When I got home from school, usually one
00:20:53
parent would come home, bring me some
00:20:55
dinner, and then go back to the shop.
00:20:58
And then there was catering on the
00:20:59
weekend. So they worked really, really
00:21:01
hard. And again, they didn't own it.
00:21:03
They were managing it on behalf of the
00:21:05
family.
00:21:07
Um, so yeah, some good memories, but
00:21:11
also some lonely times too, you know,
00:21:14
with parents just trying to get by.
00:21:17
Really?
00:21:18
>> Mhm.
00:21:18
>> Lonely in what way? I would have thought
00:21:20
it'd be a busy household even without
00:21:22
your parents there.
00:21:22
>> No, no, cuz I'm I'm way younger. So, my
00:21:24
older siblings had gone, you know, my
00:21:26
older brother. Um, so there's me at 51.
00:21:31
This is how I work it out. 51. Uh my
00:21:34
brother who passed away, he would have
00:21:35
been 55 cuz he's four years between us.
00:21:38
My sister's 57. Um and then my other
00:21:42
brother 59, other brother 61, 63. So the
00:21:47
two older siblings had gone. Um
00:21:51
>> they must have felt more like um uncles
00:21:53
or aunties.
00:21:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then my sister,
00:21:56
her and I just fought all the time. And
00:21:58
my other brother, he moved out as well.
00:22:01
And then he moved back home a little bit
00:22:03
later.
00:22:04
>> Mhm.
00:22:04
>> Um and then my next brother, he passed
00:22:07
away when I was only six. So
00:22:10
you know that they were doing their
00:22:12
thing as teenagers and then my two older
00:22:14
brothers had moved to Ru at that time
00:22:16
and their mom and dad were at the shop
00:22:18
>> Monday to Sunday.
00:22:21
And so you know Christmases
00:22:24
all of those times there was lots of
00:22:27
activity going on because everybody
00:22:28
would come home. But in between all of
00:22:30
that, you know, mom and dad were
00:22:32
working, I was at school, and then there
00:22:35
was net ball. There was a whole lot of
00:22:37
other kind of activities going on, but
00:22:39
>> it wasn't a full house while I was
00:22:42
growing up.
00:22:43
>> Yeah.
00:22:44
>> Um,
00:22:45
you mentioned your brother that passed
00:22:47
away. That's Charlie. You called him
00:22:49
Chara.
00:22:50
>> Yeah.
00:22:51
>> Yeah.
00:22:52
>> Yeah. That's him.
00:22:53
>> So, uh, menitis at 10.
00:22:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. And did he have a a bike
00:22:57
accident or something earlier to that?
00:22:59
>> Yeah, he sort of scraped with death
00:23:01
earlier.
00:23:02
>> Him and his mate, they um
00:23:06
were
00:23:09
went out the back of our place and
00:23:11
there's a bit of land out there and
00:23:13
there's a hill. So, they took this bike.
00:23:16
It had
00:23:18
um no seat,
00:23:22
no brakes.
00:23:24
I don't even think it it wouldn't had a
00:23:26
chain. Anyway, they took it to the top
00:23:27
of the hill and my brother jumped on the
00:23:29
front of it and his mate was behind him
00:23:30
and they went down. There were rocks all
00:23:33
over the place. Hit a rock, fell off and
00:23:35
he split he split his head open
00:23:39
right down here
00:23:42
and we didn't have a car at the time. I
00:23:46
can't remember where the car was. dad
00:23:48
might have.
00:23:51
And it was mom was home and my brother
00:23:54
was home and this poor boy comes
00:23:57
running. Oh, Charlie's had an accident.
00:23:58
He's had an accident. So my brother runs
00:24:01
up. My mother's frantically going, "Go
00:24:03
and get your brother."
00:24:05
She runs next door to try and find a car
00:24:08
to get him to
00:24:13
the hospital.
00:24:15
And I can remember my brother carrying
00:24:20
chala like this and there was just blood
00:24:22
blood everywhere.
00:24:26
Anyway, they rushed him off to hospital
00:24:28
and everything seemed fine.
00:24:33
Yeah. And then a few weeks later he
00:24:35
died.
00:24:38
Look at that. Look at that haircut. He
00:24:41
must have cut it himself.
00:24:46
Yeah.
00:24:46
>> Yeah.
00:24:47
>> So, so, so the menitis had nothing to do
00:24:49
with the bike accident?
00:24:50
>> I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Things
00:24:55
>> things aren't so clear for me in that
00:24:57
way whether it was related or not.
00:25:01
>> But yeah, he died at home.
00:25:07
>> Yeah. In my father's arms.
00:25:12
What what are you So you were six at the
00:25:14
time. He was 10. What are your What are
00:25:15
your memories of of that
00:25:17
>> of the actual the actual time?
00:25:20
>> I
00:25:21
just you just confused?
00:25:24
>> No, I knew he'd died. I knew I didn't
00:25:27
hear I didn't hear what was going on. I
00:25:30
don't know at what point I woke
00:25:33
in the night.
00:25:36
I remember the ambulance arriving
00:25:40
and my mom and I outside walking up and
00:25:43
down our driveway.
00:25:45
I was on her back just holding on and
00:25:48
she was just higgy backing me back and
00:25:50
forth, back and forth.
00:25:54
And then my grandfather, I don't know at
00:25:56
what point he arrived, but I do remember
00:25:58
him being there and standing in the
00:26:01
passage
00:26:03
with his head on the wall and his arm up
00:26:07
and just saying, "Why wasn't it me?
00:26:10
Why didn't you take me?"
00:26:14
Cuz he was named after my grandfather.
00:26:17
>> Yeah.
00:26:19
I think he was the best of us.
00:26:22
Of all of us. Why?
00:26:26
>> Cuz he was funny, smart, and had a big
00:26:30
heart.
00:26:31
>> I mean, we had some fights.
00:26:34
>> Oh, that's standard though. Standard
00:26:37
sibling and stuff.
00:26:38
>> He didn't like me because he was the
00:26:40
youngest and then I became the youngest,
00:26:43
>> the baby of the family.
00:26:44
>> So, mom had to say, "You're my youngest
00:26:46
boy. She's my youngest girl."
00:26:49
>> So, he didn't like me very much, but
00:26:52
>> yeah. M.
00:26:55
>> So my son's named after him, too.
00:26:57
>> Oh, wow. That's powerful.
00:26:58
>> Charles.
00:26:59
>> Yeah.
00:27:00
>> It's funny how you were so young at the
00:27:01
time. It was like a half a It was a
00:27:04
lifetime ago, really. Like Yeah. Say 45
00:27:06
years ago. Grief. Yeah. What have you
00:27:09
learned about grief?
00:27:15
>> Straight away from seeing you talk about
00:27:17
it, the one thing I get is it never
00:27:18
leaves you. Yeah. 100%.
00:27:20
>> It never leaves you. Um,
00:27:25
and I I think
00:27:30
even more so now that I'm a mother
00:27:31
myself and I think about what my parents
00:27:36
experienced losing a child.
00:27:40
And I can't imagine that kind of grief.
00:27:44
you know, he was my brother who I'd only
00:27:47
known for six years. But
00:27:51
a parent's grief, I just I you know, I
00:27:53
don't know how my mom and dad coped. And
00:27:57
as somebody growing up in a big family
00:28:00
or just I don't know, maybe I was just
00:28:02
focused on myself. I never really saw
00:28:05
how that had an impact on them.
00:28:08
It's not, you know, now till later in
00:28:10
life and I sit down to have
00:28:11
conversations with my mom and she said,
00:28:14
you know, I believed for 5 years that he
00:28:16
was going to come back.
00:28:19
Every day I would think of him walking
00:28:21
through that door.
00:28:23
I didn't know that about my mom that
00:28:25
that's how she was coping
00:28:29
with his passing. Do you think she just
00:28:31
did didn't want to share it because she
00:28:33
was putting on a brave face for you guys
00:28:34
or?
00:28:35
>> Yeah, as you do as a parent, you try
00:28:37
and, you know,
00:28:40
mask those things or you try to keep
00:28:44
that hurt from your children.
00:28:49
But it wasn't until one of my aunties
00:28:51
said to her, "Patty, you have to let him
00:28:53
go. He's not coming back." And for
00:28:56
whatever reason in that moment, she
00:29:00
realized that, you know, she was never
00:29:02
going to see him walk back through that
00:29:03
door
00:29:04
>> again or walk around the side of the
00:29:06
house.
00:29:08
But yeah, grief, it never goes anywhere.
00:29:10
It comes and goes and I
00:29:13
>> I accept I accept when it
00:29:17
comes back.
00:29:20
I'll quite often
00:29:23
shed tears, be in the car, cry, and I'm
00:29:27
okay with that. For me, that's about
00:29:32
remembering who
00:29:35
they were and the impact that they had
00:29:38
on my life.
00:29:40
>> And when I say they, I'm obviously
00:29:42
talking about Chella, my oldest brother,
00:29:44
Jeffrey, who died, and my dad.
00:29:48
>> Yeah. So your brother Jeffrey 2018
00:29:52
>> was it 2018 you lost him to bowel
00:29:55
cancer?
00:29:56
>> Yeah, that'd be about right.
00:29:57
>> So um so he he had a car accident which
00:30:00
gave him a like a brain injury.
00:30:02
>> Yeah, that was years before.
00:30:04
>> That was that was years when I was at
00:30:06
school actually that happened.
00:30:08
>> Yeah. And then bow cancer and then your
00:30:09
dad passed 4 months later. Yeah. That
00:30:11
that must have been a [ __ ] of a year.
00:30:12
>> Yeah, it was. M
00:30:14
>> um
00:30:16
I remember it's I remember when my
00:30:22
mother rang me and she said I can
00:30:25
remember exactly where I was and Takani
00:30:28
husband and I I was in the passenger
00:30:30
seat. We were driving over the railway
00:30:32
crossing and my mother rang. She said,
00:30:34
"Your brother's got bowel cancer."
00:30:37
And straight away in my head I went, "Oh
00:30:38
my god, he's going to die." not knowing
00:30:41
what stage it was, not knowing anything.
00:30:45
And it was a two years.
00:30:49
And one of the biggest regrets
00:30:54
that I have
00:30:57
is the day that he was told it was going
00:30:59
to be terminal.
00:31:04
And I said nothing. I was in the room
00:31:06
and I I didn't know what to say.
00:31:16
I looked at my mom
00:31:19
and my dad and the look on their faces
00:31:21
and I just thought,
00:31:25
"Fuck, how do you as a parent, how do
00:31:27
you sit there and
00:31:29
cope with that and listen to that?"
00:31:32
We all walked out afterwards and I just
00:31:34
I didn't know what to say to him. I had
00:31:36
no words.
00:31:40
You know, I look back on that and I
00:31:41
thought and I think now maybe I could
00:31:43
have just said I love you, but I
00:31:45
couldn't cuz I was I was dealing with my
00:31:48
own stuff and not thinking about
00:31:53
the impact on him.
00:31:55
>> I was thinking about
00:31:57
me and how I was coping with it.
00:32:01
>> Right. I need a tissue. Oh, there is one
00:32:03
there.
00:32:03
>> Yeah, we got a box.
00:32:07
Um, you you have to let go of that guilt
00:32:09
though. Like you were stunned right in
00:32:10
that moment.
00:32:12
>> Yeah, totally. And
00:32:15
>> I don't know if I'll ever let go of it,
00:32:17
so to speak.
00:32:21
>> I hope I learn from it,
00:32:23
>> you know.
00:32:27
>> But I was
00:32:31
grateful to be there when he took his
00:32:33
last breath.
00:32:36
to be able to spend,
00:32:38
you know, those last 48 hours or so by
00:32:42
his side
00:32:44
with the rest of my family
00:32:47
at his home
00:32:51
and to have that experience which was
00:32:53
beautiful really, you know.
00:32:58
>> Yeah.
00:32:59
>> Yeah. Yeah, I suppose that's the one
00:33:00
maybe the one good thing about um a
00:33:03
death from something like cancer. Like
00:33:04
you do get the time to say the things
00:33:07
that you want to say.
00:33:08
>> Yeah. And I probably didn't do that with
00:33:10
my brother. I always
00:33:12
>> You just didn't have that sort of
00:33:13
relationship.
00:33:14
>> No, no, no. I My brother to me was
00:33:17
I looked up to him and and adored him.
00:33:24
I just didn't know how to cope. M
00:33:26
>> I didn't know how to cope with
00:33:31
him dying
00:33:35
>> and what seemed most appropriate during
00:33:39
those times was just just being there
00:33:41
just hanging out.
00:33:43
But you know I also think about my
00:33:45
parents and go
00:33:47
for two years they watched him
00:33:53
and when my mom talks about him as a
00:33:55
little boy
00:33:57
you know she'll look at my sons and go
00:33:59
that's what he was like you just you had
00:34:01
to put a harness on him
00:34:03
cuz he was off. Nobody wanted to look
00:34:06
after Jeff cuz he was just
00:34:09
>> he was off, you know, he just off he'd
00:34:11
go and he just was such an adventurer.
00:34:15
>> And then from the diagnosis,
00:34:18
you know, and my parents always had hope
00:34:22
that he would get better, but they went
00:34:25
to his appointments when he was staying
00:34:30
in Hamilton um for his treatments. they
00:34:34
were there.
00:34:36
And that's exactly what you want to do
00:34:38
for your children is to be there. But at
00:34:39
the same time, it must be heartbreaking
00:34:44
>> to see,
00:34:46
you know, your child go from
00:34:48
full vibrant and Jeff was still that,
00:34:53
but knowing that there was inevitability
00:34:55
about
00:34:57
what was going to happen.
00:34:59
>> Mhm.
00:34:59
>> Yeah. Well, I suppose as a parent,
00:35:01
you're the protector and there's just
00:35:02
nothing you can do.
00:35:03
>> And I just, you know, you feel helpless.
00:35:08
>> What that time with my brother did
00:35:10
though was gave me time with my dad.
00:35:12
>> Yeah.
00:35:12
>> And so when he passed 4 months later
00:35:14
again, I was at work.
00:35:18
I was sitting at my computer
00:35:20
and mom rang me and she was just I
00:35:24
couldn't understand what she was saying
00:35:27
and she said, "Your father's gone.
00:35:32
He was mowing the lawns. He's gone.
00:35:34
They're working on him at the moment."
00:35:35
And I just hung up
00:35:38
and walked out the door, rang my husband
00:35:41
and said, "I'm going home." which is 2
00:35:44
and a half 3 hours away from
00:35:49
um central Oakland. And he said, "Do you
00:35:52
want to stop and pick me up?" And I
00:35:54
said, "No." I said, "I'm going. If you
00:35:56
you can follow me down, I don't care,
00:35:58
but I'm going."
00:36:02
And when I arrived home,
00:36:06
he was lying.
00:36:08
There are other people there.
00:36:11
and he was lying on the mattress
00:36:14
in the house. So, they'd moved him.
00:36:20
And there's a whale,
00:36:23
a sound.
00:36:29
When your heart is so broken,
00:36:35
it was one of my biggest fears seeing my
00:36:37
dad. Mhm.
00:36:44
I miss him every day, but I'm grateful
00:36:46
for
00:36:48
the the lessons, the
00:36:51
me saying, "Dad, I don't know what
00:36:53
you're saying.
00:36:55
What are you talking What do you mean?
00:36:57
What do you mean?"
00:36:58
>> He would talk in kind of circles.
00:37:01
>> You know, whereas now I'll go,
00:37:05
"Yeah, got it now, Dad. Yeah, thank you
00:37:07
for that. I know where you were heading
00:37:08
with that. You know what you were trying
00:37:10
to teach me, but
00:37:15
>> I was grateful for the time I got to
00:37:16
spend with him with my brother being
00:37:20
unwell.
00:37:20
>> Yeah.
00:37:23
>> So, I felt at peace with the time that
00:37:25
I'd spent with my dad and the
00:37:27
conversations that we'd had.
00:37:30
>> Would I have liked more? Yeah, sure.
00:37:35
>> But we had a lot of time together.
00:37:38
And so I felt I felt, you know,
00:37:43
what we say to I felt settled with where
00:37:47
I was with my dad.
00:37:49
>> Yeah.
00:37:51
>> Yeah.
00:37:51
>> Yeah. Because you didn't didn't speak
00:37:53
any Maldi in the house growing up and by
00:37:54
then you'd done full immersion Moldi. So
00:37:57
you and your dad Walker, you'd have full
00:37:58
conversations in Moldi together.
00:38:00
>> And you know, and it was beautiful. was
00:38:02
I mean we used to go to Warriors games
00:38:04
and take Scotty Morrison's book with us
00:38:05
which has got phrases in it for sport
00:38:08
and we'd sit there and I'd say these
00:38:10
things' be looking at me going what what
00:38:11
are you talking about and I'm like I
00:38:13
don't know this is what it says in the
00:38:14
book you know way up in the stands this
00:38:16
is when nobody used to go to the
00:38:18
Warriors way back in the day and it was
00:38:20
just our thing and he would drive up you
00:38:23
know every few weekends just to sit with
00:38:26
me be with me to help and encourage me
00:38:29
cuz he was so proud Mhm.
00:38:31
>> of me learning tel. But one of the one
00:38:34
of the other huge lessons that my dad
00:38:35
taught me is one day we were sitting
00:38:37
outside and we were having a
00:38:39
conversation in Mari and I was in it
00:38:41
man. I just loved every moment of it
00:38:43
savoring you know that time
00:38:47
and my mom was sitting there. She kind
00:38:49
of was getting up going back in the
00:38:51
kitchen coming back out again. And he
00:38:53
said to me and Mai
00:38:56
you need to speak English. And I was
00:38:59
like, "Well, why?" Cuz you know, we're
00:39:02
on a roll here and I'm enjoying it. And
00:39:04
he said, "Because your mother, you're
00:39:06
leaving your mother out."
00:39:08
And I'll never forget that lesson that
00:39:10
he taught me in that moment cuz it
00:39:12
wasn't just about the it was actually
00:39:14
just in general is being mindful of
00:39:18
others.
00:39:20
And even though at the time I was, you
00:39:22
know, pretty pissed off because
00:39:26
this is what I had longed for for such a
00:39:28
long time and my father was saying, you
00:39:30
know, we just need to to stop here.
00:39:35
It was a powerful powerful message
00:39:39
>> and I still think about that you know
00:39:41
now when I'm full on speaking in Mari
00:39:44
with my boys and making sure that if
00:39:46
there's others around just translating
00:39:48
it although they answer me in English so
00:39:51
you know people get the context of the
00:39:53
conversation that we're in but you know
00:39:54
not making people feel like they don't
00:39:56
belong in the room or that you know they
00:40:00
can't be part of the conversation.
00:40:03
>> So I'm mindful of that. as well
00:40:07
in things that I do.
00:40:09
>> Thanks for that, Dom.
00:40:10
>> No, thank you. Thanks for sharing all
00:40:12
the stuff. Oh, no. It's um gre grief
00:40:15
sits very close to the surface, doesn't
00:40:16
it?
00:40:17
>> Oh, yeah.
00:40:18
>> And it's sometimes it's things and it
00:40:20
comes in moments and waves when you
00:40:22
least expect it. And that's why I've
00:40:25
leared just to go with it
00:40:28
>> and if I feel it, just Yeah. Let it
00:40:31
happen.
00:40:32
Um, when do you find the the sort of
00:40:35
feelings come up the most? Is it on like
00:40:36
birthdays and Christmases or is it just
00:40:38
random songs on the
00:40:40
>> It's never It's never any of those big
00:40:42
moments. It's usually when
00:40:45
I'm driving in the car and I'm thinking
00:40:47
about something,
00:40:48
>> whatever that is,
00:40:49
>> and it'll just be a lesson.
00:40:52
>> Um, movies are a good
00:40:56
bloom and you know, brings back a few
00:40:58
memories. Um but mostly in those moments
00:41:03
where I'm on my own.
00:41:06
>> Yeah.
00:41:07
Maybe with a bit of space to think
00:41:10
and remember. But you know, I have
00:41:13
photos of my dad and my two brothers in
00:41:16
our lounge.
00:41:18
So I'm talking to them all the time,
00:41:21
>> you know, or if I'm
00:41:24
get up in the morning and I've got to go
00:41:25
and open up the curtains and I'll look
00:41:27
down, I go morning at you fellas.
00:41:29
>> Wow.
00:41:30
>> And so for me, I want to keep that alive
00:41:32
for our sons.
00:41:34
Um they've got, you know, photos of
00:41:36
their tupuna on both sides of our family
00:41:40
in our lounge. And I think that's really
00:41:42
really important and it's a way to honor
00:41:45
them and keep their memory alive
00:41:50
and talk about them as much as we can
00:41:52
with the boys about the experiences that
00:41:54
I had, the things that they said.
00:41:58
And my boys really love that actually.
00:42:00
They really enjoy it when we start to
00:42:01
talk like that. Whenever we go back
00:42:02
home, cuz you know, mom's still living
00:42:04
in the same house
00:42:06
and my son will go down to the room, I
00:42:08
want to look at photos and he'll want to
00:42:10
know how Koro and Nana Patty got
00:42:12
together. Um, oh, you went on a date
00:42:15
with me, but you you know, cuz you know,
00:42:17
I talked to them and, you know, they
00:42:21
love having those kind of conversations.
00:42:23
They like understanding who they are
00:42:25
>> and where they come from.
00:42:26
>> Yeah.
00:42:27
>> Yeah.
00:42:27
>> I think that's the one of the nicest
00:42:29
things you can do to honor someone. Like
00:42:30
if I was if I was dying of a terminal
00:42:32
illness and my friends were like, "Hey,
00:42:33
we're not going to forget you and we're
00:42:34
not going to let people forget you." I
00:42:36
think that would mean so much at that
00:42:38
point.
00:42:38
>> Yeah.
00:42:40
And that's what we that's what we do
00:42:41
within our family as well
00:42:43
>> with again on both sides on both sides
00:42:46
of my husband and I.
00:42:49
>> Um I know that stuff's not easy. So
00:42:51
thanks so much for sharing it.
00:42:53
>> Yeah.
00:42:53
>> You know, I just Yeah,
00:42:56
>> I don't think we should be a afraid of
00:42:58
grief.
00:43:00
all the emotions
00:43:02
that it brings up.
00:43:04
>> No, it shows you care.
00:43:06
>> Yeah. And as hard as it is,
00:43:10
>> I think there's healing to be had in it
00:43:12
as well.
00:43:15
>> Um, I've got a quote from you here.
00:43:17
Being moldy, I thought was something I
00:43:20
should tuck away and hide.
00:43:21
>> Yeah.
00:43:22
>> Um, I think that was through your
00:43:23
teenage years.
00:43:24
>> Yeah.
00:43:24
>> When when when was the decision made to
00:43:26
reconnect? Um, it was always there was
00:43:30
always a want there.
00:43:32
>> Uh,
00:43:34
even
00:43:36
throughout my playing years and I'll
00:43:38
never forget the time we went to the
00:43:39
Comwalth Games
00:43:42
over in um Manchester
00:43:45
2006
00:43:47
and we were being welcomed.
00:43:52
Was it New Zealand House? I don't think
00:43:53
it was. It was somewhere else. So
00:43:54
anyway, the whole New Zealand team was
00:43:56
going and then um
00:43:59
I was asked, our team manager came to me
00:44:01
and she said, "Oh, um could you do the
00:44:04
Kanga
00:44:06
to bring us in? They're going to welcome
00:44:08
us. Can you do the return karanga?" And
00:44:10
I went, "No."
00:44:13
And she said, "Well, we actually don't
00:44:16
have anybody else." I said, "I've never
00:44:17
done a Kanga in my life." I said, "I'll
00:44:20
have to ask my dad." Asked my dad. He
00:44:22
said, "No.
00:44:24
He said there must be it's got to be
00:44:26
somebody else. Somebody else can do it.
00:44:28
You know, I'm not I don't have my I'm
00:44:31
not
00:44:32
connected in that way in terms of the
00:44:34
language. Anyway, I went back and said,
00:44:35
"Oh, look, I can't do it." And they
00:44:36
said, "Well, actually, we've got nobody
00:44:38
else." So I learned
00:44:42
and I remember in that moment just being
00:44:44
so profoundly proud
00:44:47
of being able to do that and having the
00:44:52
whole New Zealand team just kind of and
00:44:53
cuz they understood you know that it was
00:44:55
an I was nervous first time I'd done one
00:44:59
actually not the first time I had done
00:45:01
it previously at school
00:45:04
but the strength that I gained from them
00:45:06
knowing that you know they knew how
00:45:07
significant that this moment was for me.
00:45:11
And so there's always been those moments
00:45:12
throughout my life where it wasn't
00:45:15
really a matter of if it was just when
00:45:20
>> me
00:45:22
letting go of you know whatever things
00:45:26
had happened in the past or my thoughts
00:45:29
in the past not really what happened but
00:45:31
my thoughts from the past and actually
00:45:33
embracing that and going yeah this is
00:45:35
who I am and it's okay to be proud of
00:45:37
that
00:45:39
and it just took time for me to figure
00:45:41
that out. And it didn't come till later
00:45:44
on in life, but it was a time when I was
00:45:46
ready. Again, I was at TVNZ.
00:45:50
We I was working on TVZ7
00:45:54
and we knew that the funding was going
00:45:57
to be cut the following year. And in
00:46:00
that moment, I went, well, I'm going to
00:46:02
take charge of my future. So, I've
00:46:04
always wanted to go and do one year
00:46:05
total immersion. So, I'm going to go and
00:46:07
do that.
00:46:09
So, it's just about timing, I think.
00:46:12
>> Yeah. Being ready and timing.
00:46:15
>> How difficult was that? How hard was
00:46:16
that? That one year full immersion.
00:46:18
>> It's one of the hardest things I've ever
00:46:19
done in my life. Seriously,
00:46:21
>> feeling dumb every single day,
00:46:25
>> feeling even more disconnected
00:46:29
because the thing that I hadn't realized
00:46:30
at that time was the trauma in terms of
00:46:35
this is my language. Why do I not know
00:46:38
about why can't I why why can't I learn
00:46:41
this? Why isn't it coming easily to me?
00:46:44
I should know these things.
00:46:47
There was so much that came with that.
00:46:50
But every day I would go home and if I
00:46:52
wasn't in tears, I'd be sitting there
00:46:53
just staring at the ceiling going, why
00:46:55
is this so hard? I was on my own at the
00:46:58
time. So actually I had no
00:46:59
responsibilities. I had the time to be
00:47:02
able to kind of get home, put hours into
00:47:06
remembering words from that day.
00:47:11
>> But in terms of like experience, it was
00:47:14
one of the hardest things I've done.
00:47:15
Seriously, hands down.
00:47:20
>> But the most rewarding at the end of it.
00:47:24
And I mean and I was told at the time
00:47:27
and it's where I am at the moment you
00:47:29
know the kind of journeys like this. So
00:47:31
my learning went from here to up here
00:47:34
and then it continued for a couple of
00:47:36
years after that and then once I had the
00:47:40
boys
00:47:42
kind of my learning has really really
00:47:45
>> understandable
00:47:46
>> understandable and
00:47:48
>> cut yourself some slack J. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:52
But now I'm wanting to get back on that,
00:47:55
you know, journey and and kick on again.
00:47:58
>> Yeah.
00:47:59
>> Because I have conversations with my
00:48:00
sons and I committed to speaking to them
00:48:04
only in Marti. Well, I can't do that now
00:48:07
because the conversations that I want to
00:48:09
have, I simply don't have the words or
00:48:13
some of the sentence construction that I
00:48:14
need to be able to have those in-depth
00:48:16
conversations with them. So I'm going in
00:48:19
between English and Mai with them. And
00:48:22
so I want to be able to have all of
00:48:25
those conversations in Del Mi if you
00:48:29
know if need be
00:48:30
>> and I'm just not there and I want to be
00:48:32
there. So just starting up an online
00:48:35
course this year and we'll see how that
00:48:37
goes.
00:48:38
>> So you do one year full immersion and
00:48:39
then then you're sort of like a almost
00:48:41
like a lifelong student of the language.
00:48:43
Totally. Yeah. Right. Right. Once you
00:48:45
start,
00:48:46
>> you know, once you start, you're in it
00:48:48
for life. And it'll come and go
00:48:50
depending upon what environments you put
00:48:52
yourself into, um, how much learning
00:48:56
that you're doing, cuz there's always
00:48:57
new things to learn, whether it's new
00:48:59
way, new kaka, whatever. Um,
00:49:03
yeah. Or, you know, new words. I mean,
00:49:05
kids nowadays, they're coming up with
00:49:07
different words for cuz there's things
00:49:09
that, you know, back in the day you
00:49:11
didn't have that are being created
00:49:13
nowadays. And so these kids are creating
00:49:15
words for that. So there's always
00:49:17
learning to do.
00:49:18
>> So if you're having a conversation now
00:49:20
with someone that's really good, like
00:49:21
say a Scotty Morrison or a Shane Jones
00:49:24
or someone like do you feel like um an
00:49:26
imposttor or Totally?
00:49:28
>> 100%. You know, and this is that's the
00:49:30
thing. Um Scotty and Stacy, I'll never
00:49:32
forget their uh kindness when I was
00:49:36
learning.
00:49:38
They would come over to the little
00:49:40
apartment that I was staying in and I'd
00:49:42
get a have a couple of mates from the
00:49:45
class that I was in and they would come
00:49:47
over and just sit for a couple of hours
00:49:50
and answer any questions or go through
00:49:53
anything
00:49:54
that we weren't quite sure of because we
00:49:56
were in total immersion. So, you can't
00:49:58
speak to your teacher and ask I don't
00:50:00
understand this because they're in a
00:50:02
process. They're in a process of your
00:50:04
learning. They know that you're going to
00:50:05
go through different stages, right? but
00:50:06
they stay in Tadel Marti the whole time.
00:50:08
So sometimes you're sitting in class
00:50:10
sitting there going, I have no idea
00:50:12
what's going on or why is a sentence
00:50:16
construction like this? When do I use E?
00:50:19
When do I use key? And so being able to
00:50:21
sit with Scotty and go, so when is it,
00:50:23
when do I use this one? And when do I
00:50:24
use that? What does this mean? And he
00:50:26
would just sit there. Him and Stacy
00:50:27
would just sit there and answer all of
00:50:28
these questions for us.
00:50:31
They uh invited me into their home to
00:50:34
sit with their children who were all
00:50:36
totally fluent in Tel Mai and just sit
00:50:39
with them bath time, bedtime, reading
00:50:42
books to them and
00:50:46
because
00:50:48
their passion for the language
00:50:52
and
00:50:53
wanting to help in any small way that
00:50:57
they possibly could. These are the like
00:51:00
two
00:51:01
busiest people on the planet and yet
00:51:04
they still took that time
00:51:07
>> to sit and help in those moments and
00:51:09
I'll I'll never forget that.
00:51:12
>> Um anyway, what were you saying? Did you
00:51:16
ask? I can't.
00:51:16
>> Oh, I was no just asking like if if you
00:51:18
feel like an imposter when you
00:51:19
>> Oh, yes. And so, you know, I have that
00:51:21
background with people like Scotty and
00:51:22
Stacy. And yet, when I'm in their
00:51:25
presence and we start talking, I'll
00:51:27
start and then I'll go, "Oh my god, oh
00:51:28
my god, I don't know what the word is.
00:51:31
[ __ ] I'm just going to go into
00:51:32
English." And so, I'll revert back to to
00:51:35
English.
00:51:36
>> And I have my moments where I get, you
00:51:38
know, kind of get the courage to be able
00:51:40
to speak in Del Mi. And yet, they will
00:51:42
always be encouraging of that. And the
00:51:45
thing I know about them too is that if I
00:51:48
use a word in the wrong context, they'll
00:51:49
correct me because we have that kind of
00:51:51
relationship. Um, I feel safe in that,
00:51:55
but it still doesn't mean that I, you
00:51:57
know, still don't feel like an imposter
00:51:58
when I am
00:51:59
>> sitting and talking with them.
00:52:01
>> You, you're um, you you're made of tough
00:52:03
stuff. Like, you've done a lot of tough
00:52:04
stuff. And, um, you say full immersion
00:52:07
is the toughest thing you've ever done.
00:52:08
Why didn't you quit at some point? Why
00:52:10
don't you come up with some story in
00:52:11
your head about how busy you are or how
00:52:12
you would park it and do another job?
00:52:14
how I'm built.
00:52:15
>> It's something that I always that I
00:52:17
wanted.
00:52:19
>> It was
00:52:22
about
00:52:24
completing it
00:52:26
and doing it well.
00:52:30
>> I don't think I've
00:52:32
>> You don't do anything by halves ever,
00:52:33
right?
00:52:34
>> No.
00:52:35
>> And I don't I don't know. Again, I just
00:52:37
think I don't know. I don't know. You
00:52:38
know, I think about
00:52:39
>> Well, probably from my mom, actually.
00:52:41
The more and more I've got to know my
00:52:42
mom, the more and more I see her
00:52:46
>> stubbornness and I see her the
00:52:49
complexity about her.
00:52:51
>> Um,
00:52:53
>> so stubbornness I feel like stubbornness
00:52:55
has got a negative sort of connotation
00:52:56
to it sometimes.
00:52:57
>> Yeah, potentially. I don't see
00:52:59
stubbornness as a negative so to speak.
00:53:02
It's that real grit
00:53:04
>> and determination to complete something.
00:53:07
And I think that's how mom and dad
00:53:08
raised me. If you're going to do it, you
00:53:10
do it and you finish it.
00:53:12
>> I don't care if you don't like it. You
00:53:14
started it, so you finish it.
00:53:17
>> Um, and I'm like that now with my sons.
00:53:20
I don't want to go to training. Oh,
00:53:21
well, hard luck. Get in the car, mate.
00:53:23
You're off. You committed to this at the
00:53:25
beginning of the season, so you're going
00:53:27
to go all the way through to the end. At
00:53:28
the end, if you don't want to do it
00:53:30
again, that's fine. But you're not
00:53:31
quitting now. Um, I don't know. I just
00:53:35
think I've
00:53:38
Yeah. way I'm raised.
00:53:39
>> It's like the line aim. My mama didn't
00:53:40
raise raise no quitter. Um our
00:53:43
upbringing seemed very similar. It was
00:53:44
like, okay, if you do, if you want to
00:53:46
play tennis, that's a we we're getting
00:53:48
you a tennis record, but you're playing
00:53:49
all [ __ ] season.
00:53:50
>> Yeah, that's it.
00:53:52
>> Whether you like it or not.
00:53:53
>> That's right. And at the end of it,
00:53:54
okay, we can have a conversation about
00:53:56
it, but you know, don't come to me
00:53:59
halfway through and say you don't want
00:54:00
to do it anymore cuz it's hard. Well,
00:54:01
hard luck because you're committed to
00:54:03
yourself first and you're committed to
00:54:06
your team. So, you know, you quit now,
00:54:09
you let yourself down and you let the
00:54:11
team down. And then at the end of it, at
00:54:13
least you'll know whether you want to do
00:54:14
it or not. And sometimes life just gets
00:54:16
hard and you got to move through it.
00:54:19
>> And again, you can make that decision
00:54:21
later, but right now, sorry, mate.
00:54:23
>> Such good attitude. God, I wish we could
00:54:25
bottle that up.
00:54:26
>> Yeah,
00:54:28
>> it's going to serve you well for what
00:54:29
like whatever happens next. I think so.
00:54:33
You know, and it's I mean, I've I've had
00:54:36
a lot of ups and downs,
00:54:39
>> but what I know to be true about me is
00:54:41
that whatever happens,
00:54:44
it'll serve me in the future,
00:54:47
>> good, bad, and taking the lesson out of
00:54:50
that.
00:54:52
I like looking back and trying to figure
00:54:55
out what it is that I've learned. I like
00:54:59
checking myself.
00:55:01
about why things have an impact on me,
00:55:04
whether that's ego,
00:55:07
whether it's something else, and then
00:55:09
learning from that and hopefully
00:55:12
becoming a better person as a result of
00:55:15
that.
00:55:17
>> I like being reflective.
00:55:19
>> It's hard though, like life does come
00:55:21
with adversity and um lows and it's it's
00:55:24
hard when you're going through it to go,
00:55:25
okay, there's a lesson in here.
00:55:27
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:28
>> Often it's only in the rear view that
00:55:30
you can
00:55:30
>> No, that's the thing. You hear people
00:55:32
talk about that and you just go, "Fuck."
00:55:35
Hey, cuz you don't know my story.
00:55:37
>> You don't know how hard it is that
00:55:40
things are at the moment and the
00:55:41
pressure and all of those sorts of
00:55:43
things. So, I try not to say things like
00:55:46
that. There's a lesson in it, but I know
00:55:49
that to be true for myself. No matter
00:55:51
what's happening, I'm sitting there
00:55:53
going, "Okay,
00:55:55
something's going to come out of this. I
00:55:56
don't know what it is, whether it's a
00:55:58
lesson, whether it's something amazing
00:56:00
at the end of it,
00:56:02
but I always know that I'm growing in
00:56:05
some way as a result of the experiences
00:56:07
that I'm having, good, bad, ugly,
00:56:10
whatever it is.
00:56:12
>> Yeah.
00:56:14
>> My god, we've been going almost an hour.
00:56:15
We haven't got to the card about the
00:56:16
silver fins or the police or the media
00:56:19
stuff yet. Um, since we're on the uh the
00:56:21
the uh today stuff, the um the mock,
00:56:25
what was the
00:56:26
Yeah. How big a was it a big decision?
00:56:28
Was it a spontaneous thing? Did you have
00:56:30
to You were on TV at the time. Did you
00:56:31
have to clear it through a programming
00:56:33
department or anything? Was there
00:56:36
>> um
00:56:36
>> There's
00:56:36
>> so many questions there. I'm sorry.
00:56:38
>> No, no, no. That's That's cool. And No,
00:56:39
it wasn't spontaneous. It was something
00:56:43
that had been
00:56:45
hanging around in my thoughts
00:56:48
for a number of years.
00:56:53
And as my mom said when I went home to
00:56:56
tell her that I'd made the decision, she
00:56:59
went, "Oh, yeah.
00:57:02
I knew this day would come." And I was
00:57:04
like, "What?" She said, "No, no, I
00:57:06
always knew that this, you know, would
00:57:08
come for you."
00:57:12
And
00:57:14
it was one of those things that had been
00:57:17
coming and going, coming and going, and
00:57:19
then
00:57:21
it stayed with me for a long time,
00:57:24
weeks.
00:57:27
And there's, you know, sometimes you
00:57:28
have to actually just sit
00:57:31
and
00:57:33
feel it, listen to it.
00:57:38
And I sat outside with my husband one
00:57:41
morning and I said, "I'm going to get my
00:57:43
cow." And he just looked at me and went,
00:57:46
"Awesome, babe." And again, for him, it
00:57:49
wasn't it wasn't a surprise.
00:57:53
>> Um, and then his questions start to
00:57:55
come. So, are you going to get it done?
00:57:56
You know, how you going to have the
00:57:58
design? What all of these? And I was
00:58:00
like, I don't know. I don't know. Like,
00:58:02
I'm just at this point in time where I'm
00:58:04
finally at peace. It just it seems like
00:58:08
a natural thing for me to do. And so
00:58:10
there was a whole process around that
00:58:12
and I spoke to people who I
00:58:15
who I trusted
00:58:17
who I knew were the right people to talk
00:58:19
to.
00:58:22
And then once I had kind of been through
00:58:24
that process for myself, I then went to
00:58:28
work and said, "I'm getting my coai." I
00:58:32
didn't ask.
00:58:33
>> Mhm.
00:58:33
>> I just said, "This is what I'm doing."
00:58:35
And I knew that there was the potential
00:58:37
for me, you know, to go, well, actually
00:58:40
can't do that. I don't know why, but in
00:58:44
my head, I thought, well, if I lose my
00:58:45
job as a result of it, then so be it.
00:58:47
>> It wouldn't look great in a personal
00:58:48
grievance.
00:58:49
>> No, it wouldn't.
00:58:50
>> The optics aren't awesome.
00:58:53
>> No, it wouldn't. And I thought about
00:58:55
that later. But in the you know whilst
00:58:58
making the decision that wasn't
00:59:00
something
00:59:01
>> of course
00:59:01
>> that was a game changer
00:59:04
>> for me.
00:59:06
So it was a process and you know again
00:59:08
everybody's different about how they
00:59:10
arrive at their decision
00:59:13
and
00:59:15
yeah and then the process after that was
00:59:16
actually really really cool going to
00:59:18
talk to my mate you know from school we
00:59:21
pretty tight and then talking to my
00:59:23
auntie and then making the decision
00:59:25
about where who would be there
00:59:29
um and then going home and then going to
00:59:33
see my dad
00:59:35
you know and what he might have thought
00:59:37
about it.
00:59:38
>> Oh,
00:59:39
>> or going to see your dad after you got
00:59:40
it done or
00:59:41
>> Yeah. when you know at the UPA the
00:59:43
cemetery where him and all my uh tupon
00:59:47
lie
00:59:49
and taking my kawaii to him. He Yeah,
00:59:55
I think he'd be proud.
00:59:59
>> Yeah.
01:00:00
>> Oh, 100%. Right.
01:00:01
>> Oh, yeah. It's funny. My dad's like my
01:00:03
my dad and I he's crack up.
01:00:06
because he's always taught me about it's
01:00:08
not about you, it's actually about those
01:00:11
who have come before you and you're a
01:00:14
representation of that.
01:00:16
Um, took me again a long time to figure
01:00:18
that one out when he said it's not about
01:00:20
you.
01:00:22
Anyway, yeah, I think he'd be proud, my
01:00:25
dad.
01:00:26
>> Oh, 100%. What What does it What does it
01:00:28
mean? By the way, I called it a moco
01:00:29
before. Am I Is that wrong?
01:00:31
>> Cow. It's a mo kawaii. uh cuz it's on
01:00:35
your chin.
01:00:36
>> Okay.
01:00:37
>> And the placement of it. But in essence,
01:00:40
mo a tattoo.
01:00:42
>> Um it's about it's a representation of
01:00:46
who I am as
01:00:48
>> Mai.
01:00:49
Um
01:00:51
because you are in no doubt of who I am
01:00:56
and where I come from.
01:00:59
And so for me in terms of the design
01:01:03
there's a certain way that kawaii uh
01:01:06
designed
01:01:10
and it was interesting actually because
01:01:13
the conversation that I had with my um
01:01:18
both my auntie and my friend actually
01:01:20
cuz I thought there was a certain you
01:01:21
know you had to have it designed a
01:01:23
certain way
01:01:25
and both of them said you do it how you
01:01:28
want to do
01:01:30
you're the one that has to wear it cuz
01:01:33
there's only one other person in my faro
01:01:35
that
01:01:37
uh had the kawaii that I know of and
01:01:41
that was my
01:01:44
great grandmother,
01:01:47
but there was no photo of hers.
01:01:51
But we had faro who have a recollection
01:01:53
of what it looked like. And so my
01:01:56
auntie, my brother, my dad's sister
01:02:00
took that co-way. And so there were
01:02:03
thoughts for me, do I go and ask? Is
01:02:06
that you know something that I can ask
01:02:09
for?
01:02:11
And then in the end after conversations
01:02:13
with my auntie, it was kind of like no
01:02:15
that one it's not for me that
01:02:20
and at the same time it was really
01:02:21
important for me to connect with both
01:02:23
sides of my faro. So my mom's from up
01:02:25
north
01:02:27
and my dad's from
01:02:30
PTO.
01:02:32
So it was important for me to connect
01:02:34
with both of those sides. But so I went
01:02:35
up I went up north and had mine done
01:02:39
um with my sister and my mother and my
01:02:41
husband present.
01:02:43
>> Yeah.
01:02:43
>> Incredible. And
01:02:44
>> so that's that's what it's a
01:02:46
representation of who I am as a maldi.
01:02:51
And um when you look in the mirror in
01:02:53
the morning now, like do you do do you
01:02:55
forget it's there or do you
01:02:57
>> or when you asked I you know for me it's
01:02:59
just part of who I am now. So I often
01:03:02
will forget
01:03:04
that I'm wearing it
01:03:06
>> until I see a little kid come and kind
01:03:07
of go like this to me or go like that or
01:03:09
whisper to their mother which I love.
01:03:11
Seriously, I love it because it's it's a
01:03:14
conversation starter. you know that
01:03:17
>> and again norm not I hate to use the
01:03:20
word normalize but you know to have to
01:03:22
say it's okay if you want to ask me a
01:03:23
question that's fine do you want to
01:03:25
touch it do you want to have a look at
01:03:26
it because I feel
01:03:29
that's what I want to do when I see
01:03:31
somebody's kawaii I want to look at it
01:03:34
>> I want to have a look at the lines
01:03:37
and so I'm not offended
01:03:39
>> by that
01:03:41
um
01:03:43
but I look back on photos now and that
01:03:46
doesn't look like me without my kawaii.
01:03:48
I'm kind of like, "Oh, yeah." And my
01:03:50
sons are the same. They're like, "Oh,
01:03:51
you don't doesn't look the same, mama."
01:03:54
>> Yeah. So, it's just part of who I am.
01:03:57
>> From um a TV perspective, was there more
01:04:00
viewer response about um the cow or gray
01:04:03
hair?
01:04:05
>> TV viewers are weird, aren't they? The
01:04:07
ones that interact.
01:04:08
>> You know what? It was probably more
01:04:10
about the gray hair to be perfectly
01:04:12
honest. It's quite pleasing in a way.
01:04:18
>> Yeah. I mean, you know, the ones about
01:04:20
my co were probably a little bit more
01:04:22
intense, if we put it that way.
01:04:25
>> Um, but yeah, you're right. You know,
01:04:28
people pick up on different things. I
01:04:30
remember there was a lot of complaints
01:04:31
about when I first got my glasses and I
01:04:33
I was getting used to them, so I'd kind
01:04:35
of take them off and on. Oh, you know,
01:04:39
inbox flooded. Lay them on or take them
01:04:42
off. One or the other.
01:04:45
>> So muchment. Okay, cool. I get it. I'm
01:04:49
sure at some stage they'll stay on. I'm
01:04:51
just getting used to them. Just give me
01:04:52
a bit of space.
01:04:56
>> But you know, I mean, people notice.
01:04:58
That's cool.
01:04:59
>> Yeah, they're watching.
01:05:01
>> Hey, they're watching. That's the most
01:05:03
important thing.
01:05:05
>> Um, okay. Let's let's talk about the
01:05:07
policing career for a little bit. So
01:05:08
from um 1994 to 2003 um you're a police
01:05:12
officer in the Wiccado. What so you
01:05:16
dreamed of being a silver from the age
01:05:18
of 11 but I suppose the sport was
01:05:20
amateur so you needed a job.
01:05:22
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um from age of 10
01:05:26
is when I knew I wanted to be a silver
01:05:28
fern.
01:05:30
Um, I wanted to help people and
01:05:35
being a cop was one of the ways that I
01:05:37
thought that I could do that. So, from
01:05:40
early teens, I knew that that's what I
01:05:42
wanted to do.
01:05:45
And at 19, I mean, back in the day, 19,
01:05:47
I mean, jeepers,
01:05:50
again, I kind of go, you need some life
01:05:52
experience, sister.
01:05:55
>> I I mean, I wouldn't have it any other
01:05:56
way. the amount of, you know, when I
01:05:58
went into the police force and the time
01:06:00
that I spent in there, but I certainly
01:06:02
encourage people nowadays go, you know,
01:06:04
go go do a few things before you go into
01:06:06
the police force because it's pretty
01:06:07
full on and you're dealing with a whole
01:06:11
lot of different circumstances.
01:06:14
And if you haven't lived life, you kind
01:06:16
of going into some circumstances
01:06:19
whereby you don't have an understanding.
01:06:22
Mhm.
01:06:22
>> Um and so life experience I think before
01:06:26
going into the police force is is
01:06:27
something that can really really help
01:06:28
your the way that you cope with things
01:06:31
or even approach um things that you will
01:06:35
experience within that time. But I I
01:06:38
loved it. I really really loved it. And
01:06:41
the only reason I left was because I
01:06:43
couldn't see myself as a 40 plus year
01:06:44
old woman doing front line. and I didn't
01:06:47
have any aspirations at that time to go
01:06:51
any further up within the police force.
01:06:54
I love being on the front line, loved
01:06:55
dealing with people. Um, moved sideways
01:06:58
slightly and started working with young
01:07:00
people. Um,
01:07:02
>> like a youth aid officer or
01:07:04
>> Yeah. moved into youth aid at the same
01:07:06
time that I was studying full-time at
01:07:09
university.
01:07:10
So, it kind of, you know, dovetailed all
01:07:12
of that, all of that work.
01:07:16
And I loved that. I loved having
01:07:19
>> the opportunity with young people to
01:07:22
just kind of sit with them, talk
01:07:26
and maybe on some level have some
01:07:29
influence
01:07:31
on them.
01:07:33
Hence, which is why I started, you know,
01:07:35
training to be a teacher and then
01:07:37
realize pretty quickly it's not really
01:07:39
me being stuck in a in a classroom, you
01:07:43
know, all day. Although I did do PE and
01:07:46
health because those are the two
01:07:47
subjects that went together and I wish I
01:07:49
hadn't done health.
01:07:51
Sorry, PE. I got frustrated with kids
01:07:53
that, you know, would just make daisy
01:07:55
chains while we're all trying to learn a
01:07:57
sport or, you know, do some kind of
01:07:59
activity. But the health side of it, I
01:08:02
loved it. Loved
01:08:04
Yeah. loved
01:08:06
that subject.
01:08:08
>> Um, but yeah, I love my time in the
01:08:10
police force.
01:08:11
>> Do you remember your first arrest? Um,
01:08:13
>> is that something you remember as a cop?
01:08:15
>> Yeah, I do actually. It was a guy broken
01:08:17
into a house.
01:08:20
Um,
01:08:22
and so
01:08:24
I can't I remember the house. I don't
01:08:27
remember anything else, but that was my
01:08:29
first
01:08:31
burglary.
01:08:33
>> That's got to be the weirdest thing.
01:08:34
Like um you're cuffing someone and
01:08:36
taking away their their freedom. Like
01:08:37
it's got to be I just can't imagine that
01:08:39
feeling the first time you do it.
01:08:41
>> Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember that. But
01:08:43
>> Mhm.
01:08:44
>> I do remember being on station duty. So,
01:08:48
this is partway through your training.
01:08:50
Everything's changed now. You did six
01:08:52
months down at police college and then
01:08:53
you spent 3 weeks
01:08:57
actually on the job
01:08:59
working. I mean, you had, you know, you
01:09:01
could tell you were a recruit. So, I was
01:09:03
working in Tequitti, which is 20 minutes
01:09:06
from my hometown. So, I was working
01:09:08
there and then I was in Hamilton for a
01:09:12
couple of nights, I think it was. And I
01:09:14
do remember it was a busy night
01:09:18
being dropped off outside the police
01:09:20
station in Hamilton with a guy in
01:09:22
handcuffs and the cops in the car going,
01:09:25
"Just take him in and we'll deal with it
01:09:28
when we get back." I didn't know how to
01:09:30
get in the police station.
01:09:33
So, I'm standing I'm like, "Okay, I know
01:09:37
what I'm doing." Standing outside the
01:09:38
police station going, "Ah, okay." I
01:09:42
didn't have a radio, no nothing. Walked
01:09:44
up to the doors. They opened.
01:09:47
Walked in. I was trying to, you know,
01:09:48
like knock on and go, "Hey, I'm out
01:09:50
here." Anyway, ding, ding, ding, ding,
01:09:53
ding. Somebody from the watch house
01:09:54
finally comes out and goes, "Who are
01:09:56
you?"
01:09:58
Obviously, I was in uniform, etc. I go,
01:10:00
"Oh, I'm a police recruit. just guys
01:10:02
have told dropped me off here with this.
01:10:04
Oh yeah, just come through the back. I
01:10:06
was just like,
01:10:07
>> oh my god,
01:10:08
>> that's what it was like, you know. It
01:10:09
was pretty full on at the time.
01:10:11
>> Um,
01:10:13
yeah. I mean, as a young person, I loved
01:10:16
it.
01:10:17
>> Did you Did you What did you learn, if
01:10:19
anything, about human behavior over that
01:10:21
time?
01:10:21
>> Did you Did you Did you lose the ability
01:10:23
in a way to see the good in people?
01:10:25
>> Uh, yeah. M
01:10:29
>> and I remember one of my sergeants
01:10:31
saying to me and when I was down at
01:10:34
police college with me being so young,
01:10:36
you know, you you have these rose tinted
01:10:38
glasses about what the world looks like
01:10:40
and
01:10:42
and people and when you come into the
01:10:44
police force, you learn pretty quickly,
01:10:47
you know, the reality of life for some
01:10:52
people.
01:10:53
Um,
01:10:56
you know, you
01:10:59
when you'd go out, you'd sit in a
01:11:00
certain corner cuz you'd want to see the
01:11:02
whole room, not have your back to the
01:11:05
door or, you know, cuz you were dealing
01:11:07
with a whole lot of different people
01:11:09
within the job itself.
01:11:13
I don't know. I just kept clinging to
01:11:15
the fact that I wanted to help people.
01:11:17
That was my whole point of doing. And I
01:11:20
was young, you know, full of bravado at
01:11:22
different times.
01:11:24
But at the core of it, that's why I
01:11:26
joined the police force because I felt
01:11:28
like on some level I was helping people,
01:11:32
whether that was people who were victims
01:11:34
or whether they were the perpetrators,
01:11:38
>> you know, and trying to understand them
01:11:39
a little bit more in the circumstances
01:11:40
that they had come from that had led to
01:11:43
them doing what they were doing. And
01:11:45
maybe there was some way that you could
01:11:46
influence that.
01:11:49
You know, I don't I don't know how
01:11:54
whether that was actually possible
01:11:56
because the job was so fast and furious,
01:12:00
you know, particularly on weekends. But
01:12:03
I look back at those experiences and I
01:12:05
just kind of go, man,
01:12:08
>> it was some pretty crazy things that
01:12:12
you witnessed. M
01:12:14
>> yeah from
01:12:17
car crash,
01:12:20
deaths,
01:12:22
domestics, all of it.
01:12:26
And you grew up pretty quickly,
01:12:29
you know. But again, I reflect back and
01:12:30
I go, if I was a bit more mature in my
01:12:33
own experiences in life, how I
01:12:36
potentially could have done things
01:12:38
differently in in the job. I was just I
01:12:41
was lucky that I was surrounded by some
01:12:43
really really good people during my
01:12:45
time. H
01:12:46
>> how do you how did you process some of
01:12:48
the stuff you saw like sudden deaths or
01:12:50
like giving someone bad news that a
01:12:51
loved one's died or attending like a
01:12:53
like a being a first responder in a
01:12:54
traffic accident? Like was it therapy or
01:12:57
dark humor with your peers or
01:12:59
>> dark humor? Yeah. Wasn't that I don't
01:13:02
even know if therapy was on offer. Maybe
01:13:04
it was. I don't know.
01:13:05
>> It would have been probably a sign of
01:13:06
weakness back then to
01:13:07
>> maybe. Yeah, maybe. But a lot of it was
01:13:09
dark humor and you know
01:13:13
because we were living out of each
01:13:14
other's pockets a lot of the time. Um
01:13:18
that's where you kind of offloaded a lot
01:13:21
with your work colleagues because they
01:13:23
understood what you were going through.
01:13:26
Um they understood the incidences.
01:13:30
Some of the things that you didn't
01:13:31
necessarily want to talk about what
01:13:34
you'd seen. You didn't want to relive
01:13:35
that.
01:13:36
Um, you know, there were moments where I
01:13:39
definitely woke up in the middle of the
01:13:42
night with certain things in your head.
01:13:45
Um,
01:13:47
yeah. And certain things now that I I
01:13:49
can I still remember
01:13:52
>> as a 19, 20 year old dealing with they
01:13:56
don't leave you.
01:13:57
>> Just when like on occasions like this in
01:13:58
a podcast when you when I'm asking you
01:14:00
to talk about it or just in general?
01:14:02
>> No, just in general. just in general,
01:14:04
you know,
01:14:05
>> and I think and I talked about this in
01:14:07
my book about,
01:14:09
you know,
01:14:11
a young boy, two young boys passing
01:14:14
away,
01:14:16
one in a car crash and we were there
01:14:18
when he took his last breath and then a
01:14:22
mom,
01:14:23
you know, seeing her son
01:14:26
in the hospital, he'd passed away and
01:14:30
hearing that and being in a room and
01:14:31
going, I shouldn't be in here. This is a
01:14:34
moment for a mom and her son, her grief.
01:14:38
It's those things more
01:14:40
that stay with me.
01:14:45
>> And I guess,
01:14:48
you know, now with my young boys and I,
01:14:50
you know, you often think about how you
01:14:53
want them to grow to be good people but
01:14:56
make good decisions as well.
01:15:00
>> Yeah.
01:15:03
Well, thank you for your service. Yeah,
01:15:05
I think the cops cops do a great job. E,
01:15:08
I'm a big fan actually of all first
01:15:09
responders.
01:15:09
>> Yeah.
01:15:10
>> Um,
01:15:10
>> yeah.
01:15:11
>> Yeah, I don't think there's anything in
01:15:12
life that can sort of prepare you for
01:15:14
these things necessarily.
01:15:16
>> No.
01:15:16
>> Yeah,
01:15:16
>> I don't think so either.
01:15:18
>> Did you ever were there any ever any
01:15:20
light moments where you got you were on
01:15:22
duty as a cop and you got recognized as
01:15:23
being the silver fern?
01:15:25
>> Yeah, there were plenty of
01:15:26
>> being a famous cop. But the you didn't
01:15:29
want to be out on New Year's Eve.
01:15:31
Everybody wanted to have a kiss. Um but
01:15:35
you know, there were guys
01:15:38
whether I was working in the cells over
01:15:39
at the courts or just in the cells
01:15:43
in the police station itself. Hey, miss.
01:15:47
Hey, you're that lady that plays for the
01:15:49
Silver Ferns, eh? Yeah, bro.
01:15:52
You know, just just moments like that.
01:15:55
Yeah. Which was kind of cool cuz it
01:15:58
For that moment, they didn't see the
01:16:00
blue uniform. They just saw you as the
01:16:02
person.
01:16:04
>> I did have a guy actually. I was I was
01:16:07
working I was working in court
01:16:11
taking um you know people from the cells
01:16:14
to make their appearance and back down
01:16:15
again. Anyway, there was a guy who
01:16:17
wasn't in the cells, but he just came in
01:16:19
from the public gallery and he was there
01:16:20
for drink driving, I think it was.
01:16:23
Anyway, I don't know whether it was that
01:16:25
day or a couple of days later. I was
01:16:27
working in the watch house which is just
01:16:29
at the reception area
01:16:31
in Hamilton. The guy rings a bell. He
01:16:34
comes in and he goes, "Oh,
01:16:37
do you remember me?" And I went, "Oh,
01:16:39
yeah. You were in court the other day."
01:16:41
He goes, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, I just
01:16:43
noticed that you didn't have any rings
01:16:45
on your fingers and I just wondered
01:16:46
whether you want to go on a date."
01:16:53
Oh, thanks, bro. But I'm good. There's a
01:16:57
few red flags.
01:16:58
>> Hey, but I just kind of go good on him.
01:17:01
Like, good on him for actually having
01:17:04
the courage to ask. And I mean, you
01:17:06
know, [ __ ] happens in our lives. It
01:17:08
doesn't make him a bad person, but I was
01:17:10
like, no, I'm good, bro. I've actually
01:17:12
got a partner.
01:17:14
>> Oh, that's great.
01:17:15
>> Yeah.
01:17:16
>> So, the um the Silver Fern stuff. Uh so,
01:17:19
you're in the fence from 1997 to 2002.
01:17:21
Um you dispute this, but you were vice
01:17:23
captain in 2001, according to my
01:17:25
>> I remember. I can't like seriously.
01:17:27
>> Um, and represented New Zealand at the
01:17:29
uh 2002 Comm Games where you won a
01:17:31
silver medal. Where is the silver medal?
01:17:34
>> I don't know.
01:17:35
>> Well, Jay, give yourself an uppercut.
01:17:38
What do you mean you don't know?
01:17:41
>> You're just not.
01:17:43
>> Okay, we lost that game in double
01:17:44
overtime to Australia. And so whilst I'm
01:17:48
incredibly proud to have had that
01:17:49
experience of being at a Commonwealth
01:17:52
Games and experiencing a final, we lost.
01:17:56
>> M.
01:17:57
>> So I don't know where that silver medal
01:17:59
is. My husband will pull it out every
01:18:01
now and again and show our sons who look
01:18:02
at it and kind of go, "That's whats."
01:18:05
But I I actually don't know. He would
01:18:08
have put it away somewhere.
01:18:10
>> So when you see that silver medal now,
01:18:11
it still stings that it's not a gold.
01:18:14
>> Yeah.
01:18:14
>> Yeah.
01:18:15
>> Yeah. Wow.
01:18:18
Yeah. In the forward to your book, um
01:18:21
yeah, there's a line from Stacy Morrison
01:18:24
where she says something like um you
01:18:26
even treat like vacuuming the house is
01:18:28
an Olympic sport. I I think um I can see
01:18:31
that now like your disdain at a having a
01:18:33
come silver medal speaks volumes about
01:18:36
your competitiveness.
01:18:37
>> Well, yes. And yes,
01:18:39
>> it does.
01:18:40
>> Yes. In that moment, I don't feel like
01:18:42
I'm
01:18:44
>> I'm not saying it's a negative either. I
01:18:45
think that we need more of this.
01:18:48
>> Yeah.
01:18:49
In in those moments, yes.
01:18:52
When I have moments with my sons, I
01:18:54
reckon I'm still competitive cuz I want
01:18:56
I want to,
01:18:58
you know, put them in their place.
01:19:01
Whether we're playing touch, doing a
01:19:02
sprint race, whatever it is, wrestling.
01:19:04
We were on the trampoline the other
01:19:06
night wrestling.
01:19:09
Although my son did get me into a choker
01:19:10
hold
01:19:13
and it was a it was a pretty good one.
01:19:17
Anyway, I said to
01:19:17
>> how are they? Nine.
01:19:18
>> Nine. I said to him, "Why didn't you
01:19:20
like go for it?" He's going, "Mama, I
01:19:22
didn't want to do that."
01:19:24
>> Oh, really? You're asking why I didn't
01:19:26
finish you off.
01:19:29
>> He said, "I don't didn't want to didn't
01:19:31
want to hurt you, Mom." I said, "You're
01:19:32
all right, son. It's all good."
01:19:35
Anyway,
01:19:36
>> I've been watching too much Dan Hook
01:19:37
from the UFC.
01:19:38
>> I don't I want to put them in their
01:19:41
place. But outside of that, in terms of
01:19:43
the competitiveness, I don't think I
01:19:45
don't I don't It's not a thing for me
01:19:47
anymore.
01:19:49
>> I had my time and I loved it and I'm
01:19:52
quite happy to kind of leave all of that
01:19:56
>> in the past.
01:19:57
>> I don't know you say that, but it's I
01:19:58
think it's probably there like in in
01:20:00
other aspects like you're doing full
01:20:01
immersion, it's the toughest thing ever.
01:20:02
You're not going to give up. I think
01:20:04
that's competitiveness to a degree as
01:20:05
well, isn't it?
01:20:06
>> Well, is it? I think it's
01:20:08
>> just wanting to wanting to be the best
01:20:10
at whatever you're doing. For me, that's
01:20:12
not about competing with anybody else.
01:20:14
That's about me pushing boundaries
01:20:17
>> for myself.
01:20:19
>> Um,
01:20:21
and
01:20:25
I've kind of had this attitude of
01:20:27
if you don't give things a go, how do
01:20:30
you know what you're good at?
01:20:33
So, I'm going to give it a go. And if
01:20:35
I'm [ __ ] okay, that's cool. I know. But
01:20:39
if I'm good at it, then, oh, what's the
01:20:41
potential in that? Or, okay, I've done
01:20:44
it. It was okay. I was good at it, but
01:20:46
not really something that I want to
01:20:47
continue doing. But if I don't give
01:20:49
those experiences a go, how do I know?
01:20:51
>> Yeah. I heard a line on a um do you know
01:20:54
Steven Bartlett? He's got a podcast
01:20:56
called Diary of a CEO. I I heard a line
01:20:58
>> just listening to him on the way in
01:20:59
actually. Yeah.
01:20:59
>> Really? I had a line that he had on a
01:21:01
podcast a couple of weeks ago and I
01:21:02
thought that's really good. And he's he
01:21:03
was like the entry level for anything is
01:21:05
embarrassment. What he meant is that
01:21:07
>> 100%
01:21:08
>> no one starts good at anything. So like
01:21:10
to do something you're going to you're
01:21:11
going to have to suck and be embarrassed
01:21:13
for a few months
01:21:13
>> and get over yourself right in order to
01:21:15
be and I think that's one of the biggest
01:21:17
barriers for us as well is going what if
01:21:21
I suck at it you know what if I get
01:21:23
humiliated and you see that with kids
01:21:24
all the time and I see that with my sons
01:21:26
too you know go and go and give it a go.
01:21:29
Oh, I don't want to give it a go. Why?
01:21:32
Because there's a fear of embarrassment
01:21:34
what they'll look like in front of their
01:21:36
peers. Um, you know, and so they don't
01:21:39
they stop themselves from doing it.
01:21:42
>> I mean, adults are the same as well.
01:21:44
>> I think it's in a lot of ways you get
01:21:46
worse as an adult.
01:21:47
>> Yeah.
01:21:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. True story.
01:21:51
>> But I think maybe I put that aside a
01:21:53
long time ago.
01:21:53
>> Yes.
01:21:54
>> And went, "Oh, well, I'm going to suck
01:21:55
at it,
01:21:56
>> but I could be really good at it, too.
01:22:00
to get through the suck.
01:22:01
>> I just Yeah, I have to and if it's
01:22:03
something worth pursuing, then I can
01:22:05
continue doing that. But sitting on the
01:22:07
sidelines and, you know, sitting there
01:22:10
thinking, maybe I could, maybe I I don't
01:22:12
know what if I did give it a go.
01:22:15
>> I mean, what's the worst that can
01:22:16
happen? You're [ __ ] at it.
01:22:18
>> And what?
01:22:21
>> It's a great attitude. And And I think
01:22:23
as you get older, you realize no, no
01:22:24
one's actually paying that much
01:22:25
attention to you. Everyone's so
01:22:26
selfconcious.
01:22:27
>> Totally. Everybody's worried about their
01:22:29
own [ __ ] and what they look like and
01:22:31
what's going on in their lives actually
01:22:34
>> and then you know if they've got the
01:22:36
energy to be able to comment about you
01:22:40
then there's some dissatisfaction going
01:22:42
on for themselves you know um I think
01:22:45
it's also on um diary of a CEO where
01:22:48
they talk about you know
01:22:52
wanting more in life and you know I
01:22:55
would love that flash car and then when
01:22:56
you get the flash car and you're driving
01:22:58
in it, nobody's thinking about you
01:23:00
driving that flash car. They're actually
01:23:02
thinking about what that look like in
01:23:03
that flash car. So, you know, you strive
01:23:05
for all these things about how people
01:23:07
will think about you. Actually, they
01:23:09
don't give a [ __ ] No,
01:23:10
>> people are, you know, getting on with
01:23:12
their own lives.
01:23:13
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:23:16
>> So, do you remember getting the call up
01:23:18
about getting in the silver offense? How
01:23:19
did how did it happen back then? Was it
01:23:21
a phone call? Was it a radio
01:23:22
announcement?
01:23:22
>> No, no, it was a phone call back in
01:23:24
those days.
01:23:24
>> Who was the coach then? Was that Yvon
01:23:26
>> Willer? Elvon was the coach that was the
01:23:28
tour up to the UK. Um, yeah, I do
01:23:32
remember her calling. I don't I just
01:23:34
seriously
01:23:37
you kind of go numb both ways actually
01:23:39
cuz I've had two or three phone calls of
01:23:41
being told you're not going as well as a
01:23:44
couple of good phone calls. And both
01:23:47
ways you can't remember anything past
01:23:50
congratulations
01:23:52
or I'm really sorry. Everything's a blur
01:23:56
from that point on. Obviously, one is,
01:23:58
you know,
01:23:59
>> elation and devastation. Were you sort
01:24:01
of on the frame? Like, had you had a
01:24:03
good domestic season? Were you sort of
01:24:05
expecting to make the silver ferns?
01:24:06
>> Um, I don't know. I didn't think that I
01:24:09
would make it that that particular tour.
01:24:12
It was my very first Yeah, it was the
01:24:14
first time I'd actually been called into
01:24:15
the silver squad.
01:24:18
Um,
01:24:20
there are other players in there that I
01:24:22
thought would go before me, so it was a
01:24:24
real shock.
01:24:25
Um, yeah, when I did get the call up and
01:24:28
I'd never been on a plane beyond
01:24:31
Australia, so going up to the UK was a
01:24:34
pretty big deal.
01:24:35
>> Yeah.
01:24:37
>> Wow, that's so cool.
01:24:38
>> Um, yeah. You talked about the flip side
01:24:40
of um that call, getting the call saying
01:24:42
you're not wanted. Um, so in 2003 uh you
01:24:45
were dumped. I believe you stayed inside
01:24:46
for like 3 days afterwards
01:24:48
embarrassed or ashamed. Yeah, that was
01:24:52
that was the first time I got uh the
01:24:54
phone call that I wasn't I can't even
01:24:57
remember what the tour was. We'd come
01:24:59
back we'd come back from the UK. Maybe
01:25:01
it was the next one. Come back from the
01:25:02
UK. There was another one. And then
01:25:04
there was this was the one a little bit
01:25:05
later on in the year. Anyway, um yeah,
01:25:11
I was just embarrassed. I thought
01:25:15
I was a loser. I thought everybody else
01:25:17
would think I was a loser.
01:25:20
um
01:25:22
you know cuz goes out to the papers
01:25:26
um and I stayed home for a few days
01:25:30
didn't answer phone calls or texts or
01:25:31
anything like that
01:25:36
you know which I reflect on it now and I
01:25:39
just kind of go how you this is you talk
01:25:41
about this imposter syndrome and
01:25:43
confidence and all of those sorts of
01:25:44
things and you
01:25:46
you kind of go it was one or two
01:25:49
people's opinions about
01:25:52
your performance,
01:25:56
>> but because the consequences are so big
01:25:58
and because your identity for me at that
01:26:00
point had then become wrapped up in me
01:26:02
being a silver fern and that's why
01:26:04
people were interested in me
01:26:07
>> because I was playing for New Zealand
01:26:09
and so you know
01:26:12
>> and then to have all of that gone and
01:26:15
one phone call all of it gone was at the
01:26:18
time devastating
01:26:21
and it was family in the end that pulled
01:26:23
me out of it, you know,
01:26:25
>> and the realization that actually I'm a
01:26:27
good person. It is one or two people's
01:26:30
opinions of where I'm at.
01:26:35
And
01:26:37
you have a choice at that point in time
01:26:39
whether you're actually going to get up
01:26:40
and
01:26:42
quit or get up and say, "Okay, so how
01:26:44
can I be better?"
01:26:47
And I think about that time and how that
01:26:50
actually
01:26:51
again had a huge impact on things that
01:26:54
have happened over my life since then
01:26:57
and how I respond to disappointment.
01:27:01
doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, but
01:27:02
it's what I do about it that matters
01:27:04
most.
01:27:06
>> How I pick myself back up might take me
01:27:07
a little bit longer depending upon what
01:27:09
it is, you know, or that that that
01:27:12
feeling might sit with me for a little
01:27:14
while,
01:27:16
but actually what I come back to is I'm
01:27:19
a good person.
01:27:21
There's so much more to do in life.
01:27:23
There's so much more to achieve.
01:27:28
And
01:27:30
again, I guess it's just that whole
01:27:32
learning through that process about who
01:27:34
you are, how you cope with different
01:27:37
things and the strategies that you learn
01:27:39
along the way to be able to pick
01:27:40
yourself up and carry on.
01:27:42
>> Not easy at all. And some things have a
01:27:46
a bigger impact than others.
01:27:50
But I look back on those and go, I mean,
01:27:51
that I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have
01:27:53
had that experience. So I understand how
01:27:55
my brain works and how I can, you know,
01:27:57
move through that.
01:28:00
>> But I'm just really grateful for family
01:28:03
as well.
01:28:04
>> Yeah.
01:28:04
>> You know, keeping you grounded and and
01:28:07
lifting you up when you need it.
01:28:11
>> Still sounds like you handled it better
01:28:12
than honey smiler. I had her on the
01:28:14
podcast and when she missed um morning,
01:28:17
she got a phone call in the morning
01:28:18
saying she missed selection for I think
01:28:19
it was one of the Olympic squads and she
01:28:21
she went and got two bottles of port.
01:28:25
So I think you did better than honey.
01:28:26
>> Well, I'm sure there was a little bit of
01:28:28
drinking that went on in amongst all of
01:28:30
that, but you know.
01:28:31
>> Yeah. Well, 99% of the population will
01:28:33
won't be able to relate to what you're
01:28:34
talking about. Does it feel like you're
01:28:36
disappointed obviously because you're
01:28:37
not wanted in the team, which okay,
01:28:39
anyone that plays a team sport is going
01:28:40
to go through that, but does it feel
01:28:41
like it's a sort of public humiliation
01:28:44
thing as well? Like, oh, everyone's
01:28:45
talking about
01:28:45
>> Totally. And that's and and again, you
01:28:47
know, we've just finished having this
01:28:49
conversation about most people don't
01:28:51
care cuz they're they're wrapped up in
01:28:52
their own lives, right?
01:28:53
>> Yeah. Absolutely.
01:28:54
>> And if only I had had that mentality or
01:28:58
understanding at that time, then that
01:29:01
spiral
01:29:02
>> I don't think would have been as low
01:29:07
because for me it was about the
01:29:08
headlines. It was about, you know, oh my
01:29:11
god, everybody, everybody in New Zealand
01:29:13
knows now that I'm no longer a silver
01:29:16
fern, that I've been dropped, that I'm
01:29:17
not good enough, you know, and the
01:29:19
reality is is people read and go, "Oh,
01:29:22
okay." And move on, they don't even
01:29:24
actually know who you are.
01:29:26
>> But because it was all consuming and it
01:29:29
was such a huge part of my life and my
01:29:32
identity, who I was as a person,
01:29:35
the impact was huge. M
01:29:38
>> but again, you know, the reality is most
01:29:40
people don't give a [ __ ] They've just
01:29:42
moved on. Go, okay.
01:29:44
>> Well, yeah. To to time stamp this
01:29:46
conversation, at the time we're
01:29:47
recording it, um it's the week that
01:29:50
Scott Razer Robertson lost his job as
01:29:52
all black coach. For him, it must feel
01:29:53
like Yeah. And a lot of people are
01:29:56
talking about it, don't get me wrong,
01:29:57
but it's like a a five-minute
01:29:58
conversation with a mate, and then you
01:29:59
move on with your life and forget about
01:30:01
it.
01:30:01
>> Yeah. You know, but for him, that was
01:30:05
his livelihood. Yeah.
01:30:07
>> And again, I don't I don't know Razer
01:30:09
and I don't know all of the
01:30:11
circumstances that led to where things
01:30:13
are at. My honest belief though is that
01:30:16
he'll be a way better coach for it. And
01:30:19
again, it's one of those things you go,
01:30:21
"Okay, shut up. It's pretty tough in the
01:30:25
moment,
01:30:26
>> but hey, you know what he's going to
01:30:27
learn from this experience."
01:30:30
>> Yeah. He's still a young man. Like
01:30:33
there's another 20 25 years of his
01:30:34
coaching career left. There's no reason
01:30:36
why he can't come back at some point to
01:30:39
coach the All Blacks. Didn't work this
01:30:41
time, but there's still a lot of
01:30:42
coaching to be done if that's what he
01:30:45
wants to continue doing.
01:30:46
>> Actually, that's a good point. Same sort
01:30:48
of thing happened to the man they call
01:30:49
the professor, Sue Wayne Smith.
01:30:51
Remember, he coached the All Blacks.
01:30:52
They had a bad patch.
01:30:54
>> Look at him now.
01:30:54
>> Yeah.
01:30:55
>> You know, he's the man.
01:30:56
>> He's the king.
01:30:57
>> He's the man. But, you know, he would
01:30:59
have there was so many things that he
01:31:00
would have learned during his time. Um,
01:31:04
>> and again, if that's the pathway that
01:31:06
you want to go down, there's so many
01:31:08
opportunities, you know, to head
01:31:10
overseas, come back, whatever.
01:31:12
>> Um,
01:31:12
>> it's not it doesn't define you.
01:31:14
>> No, it can feel it can feel like it does
01:31:16
and it can feel crushing at the time
01:31:17
>> in the moment. Yeah.
01:31:18
>> Yeah.
01:31:19
>> Um, yeah, you were teammates with um
01:31:21
Dame Nolles.
01:31:22
>> Yeah.
01:31:22
>> Your your careers over overlapped. Yeah.
01:31:24
Yeah. Speaking similar sort of thing
01:31:25
that I suppose she went through last
01:31:27
year. Yeah.
01:31:27
>> Um, yeah. What was she like as a player?
01:31:30
>> Uh,
01:31:31
>> was she ferocious?
01:31:34
demanding.
01:31:35
>> Um, and
01:31:36
>> that's coming from you. I'd imagine
01:31:37
you're quite demanding as well.
01:31:39
>> Yeah,
01:31:41
demanding. Um,
01:31:46
precise,
01:31:51
kind though.
01:31:54
Um,
01:31:56
and I say all of those things because
01:31:58
when we're on the court, there was an
01:32:00
expectation about
01:32:03
um, how you played, how we all played
01:32:08
together, but there was always a
01:32:10
kindness in what she was doing. Um, that
01:32:14
it was to be better.
01:32:17
Um, I she also coached me
01:32:24
And
01:32:28
I didn't like her
01:32:32
because she benched me. This is ego
01:32:35
talking, right? Because she benched me.
01:32:40
So I felt like I was kind of at the top
01:32:42
of my game. Nolles had come in to be
01:32:44
coach. Um I think it was for the magic
01:32:50
back in the early days. I think it was
01:32:52
magic or it was white Cuttle. Can't
01:32:53
remember. And we were in a game. I can't
01:32:56
I don't think we were doing that well.
01:32:57
And she took me off. And seriously, I
01:32:59
said
01:33:02
I was just in my head. I was going,
01:33:03
"What does she think she's doing? She
01:33:05
has no idea what she's doing." All of
01:33:07
these things.
01:33:09
She didn't do it to me once. She did it
01:33:10
to me a couple of times.
01:33:15
So, I didn't I didn't think much of her
01:33:16
as a coach at that time, you know. And
01:33:18
now I reflect back and go 100% she did
01:33:22
the right thing. I was actually the
01:33:24
problem on the court. My ego was bigger
01:33:27
um than anything else and expecting
01:33:29
players to play to me as opposed to the
01:33:32
other way around. And so she saw that
01:33:34
straight away, called it and benched me,
01:33:36
you know. And I think about that with
01:33:38
Nolles now. And she knows what she
01:33:40
wants. She has high expectations.
01:33:45
and if you can't do what she needs you
01:33:47
to do, then somebody else will.
01:33:49
>> M
01:33:51
>> she's always been like that. Um but
01:33:54
again, there's a kindness to her as well
01:33:56
because it's about wanting to get the
01:33:58
best out of you and what she knows
01:34:00
you're capable of, but obviously what's
01:34:04
best for the team ultimately as well.
01:34:07
>> Yeah,
01:34:08
>> that's a great spiel. I I think if she
01:34:11
heard that she Yeah. I mean, she was
01:34:13
she's not going to be like, "Oh, that's
01:34:14
that's hurtful." That's I I think Yeah.
01:34:16
They're very kind words.
01:34:18
>> Fair. Firm, but fair.
01:34:20
>> Yeah. And they're true.
01:34:21
>> They're true of her. I had the privilege
01:34:22
of playing alongside her, not only at
01:34:24
the Silver Fiends level. I do remember
01:34:27
when both her and I were benched for the
01:34:29
fans as well. Oh dear. We were in
01:34:33
Jamaica together. Anyway, we had some,
01:34:36
you know, we had some cool times
01:34:37
together. And then we I was fortunate
01:34:39
enough to play with her at uh Wato as
01:34:42
well. We
01:34:43
>> won one or two nationals together
01:34:44
playing side by side. and to have her
01:34:51
I you know when you're playing in one uh
01:34:54
region and teams for over a decade you
01:34:58
get into a pattern and she came in and
01:35:01
disrupted that pattern
01:35:03
>> and came in with a different uh way of
01:35:06
thinking and approaching the game.
01:35:10
>> Yeah. And so I was grateful to have that
01:35:12
experience with her as well. when her
01:35:14
ship was going down in 2025, you would
01:35:17
have still been on breakfast. Did you
01:35:18
have any like hot takes or firm opinions
01:35:19
on that or
01:35:20
>> I didn't um I didn't make much contact
01:35:22
at all with Niles. Just all I would do
01:35:24
was connect in and just say hope
01:35:26
everything's okay
01:35:28
because I'm fully aware that there
01:35:32
as a player and having coached as well
01:35:34
that there's always two sides to
01:35:36
everything.
01:35:37
>> I didn't know I didn't know the full
01:35:39
story and I didn't want to know the full
01:35:40
story. All I knew was that there were
01:35:41
issues going on. Um, and for me it was
01:35:45
about doing what was right for the
01:35:46
Silver Ferns and, you know, protecting
01:35:48
that brand as well.
01:35:51
>> So, no, I didn't have I didn't have any
01:35:53
hot takes on it. I understand that as a
01:35:55
player sometimes you don't like
01:35:57
>> how a coach calls things, you know, and
01:35:59
I've just talked about that, but also as
01:36:01
a coach, you are wanting the best that
01:36:04
you can from your players
01:36:06
>> and there's expectations on you as well.
01:36:10
There was um a thing I I I completely
01:36:13
missed this but um googling you uh this
01:36:15
came up in 2018 after the Silver Ferns
01:36:17
failed to get a medal at the
01:36:18
Commonwealth Games. You asked Katrina
01:36:20
Rory if the team had pride in the black
01:36:22
dress. You got criticized for that as
01:36:23
being too harsh.
01:36:25
>> Was it too harsh?
01:36:30
>> Was it too harsh?
01:36:31
>> I mean I I when I read it out loud it
01:36:33
doesn't sound too harsh.
01:36:34
>> No. For me, for me it was about giving
01:36:38
an opportunity. I mean, we're we're good
01:36:42
mates, you know. Um, for me it was about
01:36:44
giving an opportunity to explain to
01:36:46
everybody to actually express, hell yes,
01:36:49
there's still pride in the stress.
01:36:53
It's not through a lack of trying.
01:36:56
Things just aren't working for us for
01:36:58
whatever reason.
01:37:00
And so me asking that question of her
01:37:02
was
01:37:05
I don't think out of line of as a former
01:37:09
silver fern
01:37:11
um having worn that black dress and
01:37:14
understanding
01:37:16
you know you give everything and it
01:37:19
means everything to be there
01:37:22
and so giving her an opportunity to
01:37:24
actually explain what was happening with
01:37:27
them as a
01:37:29
Oh yeah, I got hammered for it.
01:37:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Did that surprise you? You
01:37:35
ever get used to that the backlash?
01:37:37
>> Um I think I did that time because I
01:37:39
remember cuz we walked back up the
01:37:40
stairs together, me, Katrina, uh and the
01:37:43
coach Janine at the time. And we walked
01:37:46
back walked back up the stairs where the
01:37:49
rest of the team was, you know,
01:37:52
and that was kind of it. And then I
01:37:54
walked into where we were working out
01:37:57
of. um as a sports team
01:38:01
and it was later on and I don't know
01:38:02
whether it was that afternoon or the
01:38:03
next morning or whatever it is and my
01:38:05
boss came up to me and he goes, "God,
01:38:06
you've started a [ __ ] storm, haven't
01:38:07
you?" And I went, "What?"
01:38:10
You know, and then of course there it
01:38:11
was and the headlines and everything and
01:38:12
I was kind of like, "I don't know. I
01:38:14
don't get it."
01:38:18
you know, and I also kind of go
01:38:23
in the moment
01:38:26
that seemed like the most appropriate
01:38:28
question for me to ask in that moment.
01:38:31
And so, I didn't have a problem with it.
01:38:33
And you know, this is always the thing
01:38:36
when you put yourself out there in
01:38:37
public, everybody's going to have an
01:38:38
opinion about you.
01:38:42
>> That's cool.
01:38:42
>> Yeah. Also, it was a question, not an
01:38:45
accusation, per se.
01:38:48
But
01:38:48
>> as we talked about before with you, Gray
01:38:50
here on TV, like the worst thing than
01:38:52
people responding is people not
01:38:53
responding at all.
01:38:54
>> Yeah.
01:38:55
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:38:55
>> I guess.
01:38:56
>> Yeah.
01:38:58
>> So, the media career,
01:39:00
>> I was trying to pinpoint this. When did
01:39:01
it start with um with the uh the singing
01:39:04
segment on our radio show?
01:39:05
>> God.
01:39:06
>> Was that the beginning of your media
01:39:07
career?
01:39:10
>> You won. Eh, it was like an
01:39:11
>> No, I didn't.
01:39:12
>> No. So, this was some American Idol that
01:39:14
when American Idol had just started, it
01:39:16
was like season two or season 3 or
01:39:18
something. It was a big deal, early
01:39:19
2000s. Um, it was like some singing
01:39:22
contest and the prize was to win a a
01:39:23
trip to the States for the final.
01:39:24
>> To the States for the final
01:39:26
>> and you entered it and you were like
01:39:28
fresh out of the Silver Ferns. So, we
01:39:29
were like, "Oh, we've got like a
01:39:31
celebrity New Zealand sports star that
01:39:32
wants to take part in this competition."
01:39:35
Was that the beginning of your your
01:39:36
media career sort of?
01:39:37
>> Well, I don't know. I don't know whether
01:39:40
I'd say that. It was uh it was a time
01:39:42
and it was a moment dog. Hey, you know,
01:39:46
and I I think back to that and I kind of
01:39:48
go I was terrible like
01:39:53
but I loved every moment of it cuz I
01:39:56
think it went over a couple of weeks and
01:39:58
you got us down to two and then we had
01:40:00
to sing live on the show.
01:40:03
Uh and I still remember the song too,
01:40:05
Donna Summer, Last Dance. And then I had
01:40:08
to hit the high note at the end and I
01:40:09
was terrible. It was terrible. But I
01:40:13
also go, you know, when you put yourself
01:40:16
out there, you do open yourself up to
01:40:18
whatever it is, the criticism, people
01:40:20
going, you know, good on you,
01:40:23
all of that. And I have no regrets about
01:40:26
doing that
01:40:28
because I almost got to go to the
01:40:31
American Idol final. And in that time, I
01:40:35
just loved the show.
01:40:36
>> It was massive.
01:40:37
>> Seriously, it was Yeah. Anyway, it Yeah,
01:40:40
it was a moment.
01:40:42
>> It was a moment.
01:40:43
>> No. So, at that point, did you have
01:40:45
media aspirations?
01:40:48
>> I don't know.
01:40:49
>> What were you What were you doing at
01:40:50
that point? It would have been early 20.
01:40:51
So, you were on Celebrity Treasure
01:40:52
Island in 2005.
01:40:54
>> Oh my god. Yes.
01:40:55
>> Why are you face palming?
01:40:57
>> So, this is one um this is one where um
01:41:00
Gre Robson won.
01:41:02
>> Yes.
01:41:02
>> Uh and Matthew Ridge and Nikki Watson
01:41:04
were on there as a couple. Yeah,
01:41:06
>> Matthew um said Nikki Watson was his one
01:41:08
luxury item.
01:41:10
>> Of course he did.
01:41:12
>> But did you enjoy the Treasure Island
01:41:14
experience?
01:41:15
>> I I did not.
01:41:17
I had spoken to Stacy Morrison had done
01:41:19
it the year before. And I said to you
01:41:21
know what what's it like? And she goes,
01:41:23
"Oh, be right up your alley. It's really
01:41:26
physical. You've got to, you know, get
01:41:27
around the island and do all of these
01:41:29
things." I said, "Oh yeah, okay. I'm up
01:41:31
for that." Well, we did none of those
01:41:33
things on our own. Uh, we did crab
01:41:36
racing, I think was one of them. Had to
01:41:37
put a tent up. I can't. Anyway, so
01:41:41
everything I thought it was going to be,
01:41:42
it was a complete opposite.
01:41:45
>> But again, it was a very cool
01:41:47
experience. I mean, I got to hang out
01:41:49
with people I would wouldn't ordinarily
01:41:52
hang out with.
01:41:53
>> Who else was on that series? Uh, so we
01:41:56
had Mark
01:41:57
Nikki
01:41:59
Louise Wallace,
01:42:02
uh, Suzanne Paul
01:42:06
>> and actually I got to know Suzanne uh,
01:42:08
really well and I her and Nikki
01:42:12
>> and I enjoyed my time with them
01:42:14
actually. Um,
01:42:15
>> yeah, Suzanne Paul was great. Uh,
01:42:17
>> it's a long time ago. 20 20 21 years
01:42:20
this year.
01:42:21
>> Shoot. Was it
01:42:22
>> crazy? 2005.
01:42:25
>> Michael Laws, was he on our one? I can't
01:42:27
I can't remember if it was him. Anyway,
01:42:29
>> anyway, I was there for 5 days and Jason
01:42:33
um Gun and I got voted off at the same
01:42:36
time.
01:42:37
>> Yeah.
01:42:38
>> God, what a cast.
01:42:39
>> I do remember
01:42:40
>> there's some good names there.
01:42:40
>> Yeah, I know. I do remember the uh club
01:42:43
sandwich when I got back to the hotel
01:42:45
though. Club sandwich and fries. And I
01:42:48
was thought I was hungry and I got
01:42:50
through half of the sandwich and that
01:42:52
was it.
01:42:53
>> Oh, your stomach had shrunk or
01:42:55
something.
01:42:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we we only had I think
01:42:59
we caught some fish and we got some rice
01:43:01
and that was it. Yeah.
01:43:05
>> So, your first radio job classic hits in
01:43:07
Hamilton with um the white legend
01:43:10
Ronnie.
01:43:10
>> Ronnie Phillips. Yep. Um, one thing I've
01:43:13
noticed from my time, my time in being
01:43:14
radio in radio buildings is, um, when
01:43:16
sports people come along, um, whether
01:43:19
it's like Monty Betham or Jeff Wilson or
01:43:22
yourself, you seem to approach it with
01:43:24
like a different mentality like you, I
01:43:27
don't know, like a a more
01:43:28
professionalism or something or you seem
01:43:31
to work out what steps you need to take
01:43:33
to be the best you can be and do them.
01:43:35
Whereas most radio people that aren't
01:43:37
from a sporting background don't sort of
01:43:38
approach it that way. Just an
01:43:40
interesting thing I've noticed. Um, was
01:43:42
it the same with you? So, you start
01:43:44
doing radio, regional radio.
01:43:46
>> Yeah.
01:43:46
>> And you have aspirations to
01:43:49
>> No, no aspirations.
01:43:50
>> Where did you see it going?
01:43:52
>> I don't know. I was just giving it a go.
01:43:53
Again, it was going back to that
01:43:55
mentality of, oh, well, if I don't know,
01:43:57
you know, give it a go. I could be good
01:43:58
at it, could be [ __ ] at it. I don't
01:44:00
know. Um,
01:44:03
it was
01:44:05
something that came out of the blue. I
01:44:08
was actually
01:44:11
taken leave from the police force
01:44:12
because I was trying to I was studying
01:44:16
still at that time but also my
01:44:18
aspiration was to go to the World Cup
01:44:21
which I missed out on. But again for me
01:44:24
I'm going to throw everything into it.
01:44:26
I'm going to put my job on hold and I'm
01:44:28
going to give it everything I've got. So
01:44:32
I have no excuses.
01:44:35
Um, I can't say I was too busy at work,
01:44:37
you know, or things were too full on. I
01:44:38
actually gave myself the best possible
01:44:40
chance of making it, and I didn't.
01:44:43
But in between that time came the
01:44:46
opportunity to do radio. And again, I
01:44:49
went, "Oh, well, been in the police
01:44:51
force 9 years, done that. It's cool
01:44:53
career.
01:44:55
I'm going to give this a go." And jumped
01:44:59
into it
01:45:01
again. bloody hard cuz I had no idea
01:45:04
what I was doing. Um,
01:45:07
but didn't didn't have any aspirations
01:45:10
of, you know, becoming
01:45:13
nationwide or
01:45:15
>> I was just enjoying what I was doing and
01:45:18
the opportunity
01:45:20
to work alongside Ronnie to learn
01:45:23
something new to push myself
01:45:26
um into doing something that I yeah
01:45:29
again that I had no experience in.
01:45:32
But just wanting to prove to myself
01:45:33
whether I could do it.
01:45:35
>> Well, that was probably it. That I could
01:45:37
do it.
01:45:38
>> Yeah.
01:45:39
>> Shouldn't you could long career?
01:45:41
>> 20. Yeah. How many years all up? How
01:45:44
many years were you at TV and Z?
01:45:46
>> Uh just over just under 20.
01:45:47
>> Incredible.
01:45:48
>> Yeah. Or 20. Yeah.
01:45:49
>> If someone said when you the first day
01:45:51
you walked into that building that you'd
01:45:52
be leaving there for the last time 20
01:45:54
years later, would could you have
01:45:56
imagined it?
01:45:58
>> No. because I wouldn't have thought that
01:46:00
far ahead.
01:46:01
>> Mhm.
01:46:02
>> Um
01:46:07
yeah, you know, and I think again I man,
01:46:10
I've just had the most amazing career.
01:46:13
Seriously, when I when I look at
01:46:16
>> the things that I've been able to do
01:46:17
within that 20 years of being at TBN
01:46:19
Zed, I just kind of go,
01:46:21
>> you know, I've had a good life.
01:46:23
>> I've had a good professional life. Um,
01:46:29
but I still believe that the best is yet
01:46:30
to come.
01:46:31
>> Mhm.
01:46:34
>> Whatever that looks like.
01:46:37
>> I feel the same way. It's like um you
01:46:40
got some friends similar age to us that
01:46:41
are sort of like winding down and I'm
01:46:43
like, "No, no, no. We we're just into
01:46:45
the second half.
01:46:46
>> Just beginning, baby." And I think a lot
01:46:50
of that has to do with the fact that
01:46:53
we care less about expectations and what
01:46:56
other people think. And actually what's
01:46:58
driving us now is
01:47:02
>> what we want to do.
01:47:04
>> Um
01:47:06
there is less fear on a level about
01:47:12
where this will eventually end up. It's
01:47:14
kind of like this is where I'm at and I
01:47:17
want to give this a go. Um, yep, we
01:47:20
still have those pressures of, you know,
01:47:23
being able to pay for the bills and all
01:47:25
of those sorts of things, but actually
01:47:27
letting go of of expectations of others,
01:47:30
>> you know, I think is a huge thing as you
01:47:32
get older.
01:47:33
>> Yeah. And I think I don't know, it's
01:47:35
like a a switch. Um, there's a switch
01:47:37
that goes off when you turn 50 and you
01:47:38
realize, okay, time's limited.
01:47:41
I I can't [ __ ] around with this.
01:47:43
Totally. If I'm going to do this, it's
01:47:44
now or never.
01:47:45
>> Yeah. And I think that's what happened
01:47:46
to me, too. At 50, I just went, you know
01:47:48
what?
01:47:49
>> Life's too short, man. It's one of those
01:47:51
sayings, but I think it
01:47:54
>> it really does push you into a space of
01:47:56
if I'm not going to do it now, when am I
01:47:57
going to do it? Like,
01:47:58
>> absolutely.
01:47:59
>> People, you know, I don't know about
01:48:01
you, but we've had a few people who have
01:48:03
passed away around us
01:48:05
>> who've only been young.
01:48:08
>> And so, in some way, that kind of kicks
01:48:10
you in the ass as well,
01:48:12
>> you know. yet crystallizes things. Yeah.
01:48:14
You realize, you know,
01:48:16
>> time is limited.
01:48:17
>> Yeah.
01:48:18
>> Um, so for anyone that watched
01:48:20
breakfast, like it looks like a
01:48:22
relatively easy job, right? Just sitting
01:48:24
sitting down shooting the [ __ ] for a
01:48:26
couple of hours a day. But what's the
01:48:28
reality though? Cuz you did that job for
01:48:29
6 years.
01:48:30
>> Six years.
01:48:31
>> Six years. So you're there at 3 did you
01:48:32
say 3:30 a.m. before?
01:48:34
>> 3:30 in the morning. Um,
01:48:38
you know, earlier on I was probably
01:48:39
there before 3:00.
01:48:44
And I mean the reality is
01:48:48
that it's a split shift, right? So you
01:48:52
have the early morning start and then
01:48:54
you're on air for 3 hours which requires
01:48:58
so much energy of you. you're doing six
01:49:00
or seven interviews during that time
01:49:03
reacting to breaking news uh and trying
01:49:06
to keep the energy up because you know
01:49:07
people turn the TV on they want to see
01:49:10
what's happening in the day but they
01:49:11
also they want to be informed but they
01:49:13
also want to be uplifted before they
01:49:15
actually have to walk out of the house
01:49:16
and get on with their own day
01:49:19
and then after that where there's a
01:49:20
meeting go over what the show looked
01:49:22
like and then what the show is going to
01:49:24
look like tomorrow cuz it's a machine
01:49:25
right Monday to Friday
01:49:29
then home and then the reality is I'm on
01:49:33
my computer or on my phone
01:49:36
from the time I leave physically leave
01:49:38
the building until
01:49:41
later that night. So, there are always
01:49:44
things going on. We've got an interview
01:49:46
coming up. We've got a pre-record coming
01:49:47
up. Can you do this? Can you do that?
01:49:49
Got questions about, you know, who who
01:49:51
could this is the story we've got. Have
01:49:54
you got any ideas about who we could
01:49:56
potentially interview? So, you're
01:49:57
constantly, whether it's phone calls or
01:50:00
emails,
01:50:01
messages back and forth to your
01:50:03
producing team. And then there's a
01:50:05
meeting that happens in the afternoon
01:50:06
about where the show's at, what holes
01:50:09
that still need to be filled for the
01:50:10
next day. And then there's preparation.
01:50:13
Once you've locked everything in, then
01:50:14
you've got to prep for those five or six
01:50:16
interviews that you've got coming up the
01:50:17
next day.
01:50:19
That's six days a week. That's not five.
01:50:23
So, you leave that building at 10:00 on
01:50:24
a Friday. Sunday morning, you're back in
01:50:28
it again
01:50:30
because you know that Monday again the
01:50:34
cycle starts again. So the only real
01:50:37
clear day that you had was a Saturday.
01:50:39
>> Friday Friday Fridays you must be a
01:50:41
wreck as well. Knock off on Friday
01:50:43
morning. So you don't have any more prep
01:50:45
but you just be exhausted.
01:50:46
>> Totally. And it was just and that's the
01:50:49
I mean that's the thing about working
01:50:52
that role for six years is you get to
01:50:55
interview some amazing people um and
01:50:59
again get to be part of moments in our
01:51:04
history, right?
01:51:06
You have the opportunity to inform
01:51:09
people about things that are going on.
01:51:14
But the flip side of that is that you're
01:51:18
exhausted,
01:51:20
>> disconnected, you know, a lot of the
01:51:22
time from other things in your life,
01:51:25
whether that's family, um,
01:51:30
friends,
01:51:32
and it's trying to find, and I don't
01:51:34
think you ever find a balance on it, but
01:51:35
it's trying to figure out how you
01:51:37
actually cope with all of that, whilst
01:51:40
also trying to have a life outside of
01:51:42
that.
01:51:44
I think I started to get it in the last
01:51:45
year that I was working. But again,
01:51:48
maybe that's too because I was already
01:51:50
had a foot out the door.
01:51:53
>> Yeah. Made the mind up.
01:51:55
>> Yeah. But again, for me, my mentality
01:51:57
when I went into it was I'm here doing
01:52:00
the best that I can and so I'm not going
01:52:02
to half ass it.
01:52:04
>> You know, you go in going right the prep
01:52:06
that I need to do. Actually, this is
01:52:08
going to take me an hour and a half to
01:52:09
do this.
01:52:12
The only issue with that is
01:52:17
that actually came at a cost. And that
01:52:19
cost was
01:52:21
>> being available to your family. I'm in
01:52:24
the same room as you, but I'm not even
01:52:27
I'm not even here. My my brain is over
01:52:29
here. Mama, can I have something? What
01:52:31
do you need? Like I'm right in the
01:52:33
middle of something. What do you need?
01:52:35
And then you see them go, "Oh, no. It's
01:52:37
okay." You know, and that's hard because
01:52:39
you want to reach out and go, I'm sorry.
01:52:41
But at the same time, you go, "This is
01:52:44
still going to take me 2 hours to get
01:52:45
through this, and I'm the one that has
01:52:47
to turn up tomorrow morning and be
01:52:49
across, you know, those different
01:52:51
interviews that you're doing." So, it
01:52:53
takes a toll.
01:52:54
>> It's a big cost, isn't it?
01:52:55
>> It's a huge cost.
01:52:58
>> Yeah. That's an aspect that I suppose
01:53:00
viewers wouldn't think of. They'll be
01:53:01
like, "Oh, she's got producers that
01:53:02
write the question." But you need to be
01:53:04
all over the entire story. Like, you
01:53:05
can't just have five questions that you
01:53:07
ask Christopher Luxon or whoever. You
01:53:09
need to know
01:53:10
>> no that's right
01:53:11
>> the backstory as well
01:53:12
>> but also yes there are questions but
01:53:17
you will always look at them and go okay
01:53:20
so how would I help what do I want to
01:53:22
know what do what do others want to know
01:53:24
like yes that's a basis for starting to
01:53:27
look at an interview but actually you
01:53:30
need to flesh that out so it's not as
01:53:31
simple as having your questions there
01:53:33
that a producer has kind of pulled out
01:53:36
for you to look at you again your own
01:53:39
curiosity going back and like you say
01:53:41
having a look at you know uh other
01:53:44
articles or doing your own research to
01:53:47
dig a little bit deeper into that
01:53:49
interview
01:53:51
and that that takes a huge amount of
01:53:54
time and energy to be able to do that
01:53:59
but again the way that I work you know
01:54:02
that's what you do because you don't
01:54:04
want to turn up half ass the next day
01:54:06
and go actually I got no idea
01:54:08
>> Mhm. I've got no idea because that's how
01:54:09
it comes across too. The audience knows
01:54:12
that
01:54:13
>> when they're watching you. So
01:54:15
>> you're the one that's on screen, too. So
01:54:17
you're the one that will look like an
01:54:18
idiot.
01:54:18
>> Totally.
01:54:19
>> But you know, also the reality is you
01:54:21
can't know everything about everything,
01:54:23
>> you know, and that's the skill is being
01:54:25
able to do an interview, but pull that
01:54:26
information out of that person. They're
01:54:28
the they're the expert. They're here to
01:54:30
talk about the topic. It's about trying
01:54:32
to figure out how do you actually
01:54:34
extract that information that is in them
01:54:37
>> so that it's useful for the audience
01:54:39
>> and that you know that takes skill and
01:54:41
that takes time and understanding and
01:54:46
>> you spent time with um John Campbell
01:54:48
who's one of the goats of New Zealand
01:54:49
broadcasting. Um what did you learn from
01:54:52
him either from him giving you
01:54:54
broadcasting lessons or from just
01:54:56
observing how he worked? Um, I think the
01:54:59
biggest thing that I got from John was
01:55:03
it's okay to be you.
01:55:07
And I think that was one of the biggest
01:55:08
things in terms of confidence that he
01:55:10
was able to impart on me.
01:55:13
You know, initially you could be
01:55:14
intimidated
01:55:16
>> by that,
01:55:19
but I guess for me it was kind of like
01:55:21
he is what he is and
01:55:26
has a reputation and experience and all
01:55:29
of those things,
01:55:31
>> but that's not me. But what I have
01:55:34
>> is different, too. And it's okay to
01:55:37
bring that to the screen. And I think
01:55:40
that was one of the biggest things that
01:55:42
he gave me was the confidence just to be
01:55:43
able to do that
01:55:44
>> because you know there was certain
01:55:46
things that he could do better than me.
01:55:47
There was certain things that I could
01:55:48
do. I wouldn't say better but that I
01:55:51
that was my lane and I learned that that
01:55:55
was okay
01:55:58
and having the confidence to be able to
01:55:59
do that.
01:56:01
>> Although al and also he's not he's not
01:56:03
fully himself on screen is he? I've
01:56:04
never met someone that swears so much.
01:56:07
>> This is true. Have you heard? He's one
01:56:09
of the most prolific swearers you'll
01:56:11
ever come across. When you f when you
01:56:13
first meet him off the air and you hear
01:56:14
him swear, it seems quite shocking. It's
01:56:17
like, oh wow, John Campbell just said,
01:56:20
"Fuck me."
01:56:21
>> Yeah. And it happens all the time, too.
01:56:23
Like in between making sure, okay, we're
01:56:26
on now. Ready? Are you good now? Okay.
01:56:30
Yeah.
01:56:31
>> Any any um terrible bloopers or fauxars
01:56:34
or mistakes?
01:56:36
>> Probably. I don't know. Nothing that
01:56:38
springs to mind. Nothing that happened
01:56:40
that you got in trouble for or that end
01:56:42
up going viral on Tik Tok or YouTube?
01:56:47
>> I don't know. I don't think so.
01:56:49
>> Well, I guess not.
01:56:51
>> I don't have Tik Tok and I don't watch
01:56:53
YouTube.
01:56:55
>> Probably a good thing.
01:56:56
>> Yeah. So, last year was a big year for
01:56:58
you. So, it was um yeah, your final year
01:57:00
on on Breakfast after that amazing
01:57:01
career at TVZ. And also um your book
01:57:04
came out full circle. Um the dedication
01:57:07
at the beginning to anyone who has ever
01:57:09
felt unworthy
01:57:10
>> or still on the journey to finding
01:57:12
themselves
01:57:15
>> still true now.
01:57:16
>> Yeah.
01:57:16
>> Yeah.
01:57:18
>> Yeah. It surprised me when I read that
01:57:20
because um I don't know just from an
01:57:23
outsers's perspective. I'll see a
01:57:24
glimpse of you on the the court with the
01:57:26
silver ferns or glimpse on whatever TV
01:57:28
show it is that you happen to be on and
01:57:29
you think you know you got it all
01:57:30
figured out. So, the book was really
01:57:32
refreshing in a way
01:57:34
to realize, oh, cool. She's she's fig
01:57:37
figuring [ __ ] out and dealing with [ __ ]
01:57:38
like the rest of us. Uh and you know
01:57:41
throughout
01:57:45
throughout a lot of my career whether
01:57:47
that was in sport uh as a player, as a
01:57:51
coach, whether that was within the media
01:57:54
itself
01:57:55
um
01:57:57
you know that whole thing around
01:57:59
imposttor syndrome and
01:58:03
whether you're good enough to be sitting
01:58:05
sitting in certain spaces or being part
01:58:07
of certain groups etc.
01:58:09
I think that's something that I've dealt
01:58:11
with and a lot of people do. We just
01:58:13
don't talk about it.
01:58:17
But that's been a huge part of my
01:58:19
journey and trying to figure that stuff
01:58:21
out. How do I cope? Um
01:58:25
I feel like I'm coping, but I'm not
01:58:27
actually coping. Um
01:58:30
and so for me it was really important in
01:58:33
my book to
01:58:36
be authentically me.
01:58:38
And in terms of you know growing up my
01:58:43
experiences
01:58:45
and
01:58:48
my hope is that by me telling my story
01:58:51
others see themselves in that story and
01:58:53
don't feel
01:58:55
well that they go ah actually
01:58:59
somebody else feels like that too.
01:59:00
That's how I feel. And that actually
01:59:02
we're all just trying to figure [ __ ]
01:59:04
out.
01:59:06
And we have moments of clarity in our
01:59:08
lives. And we have different times where
01:59:11
everything seems okay. And then we have
01:59:13
moments where, you know, there's a
01:59:15
little bit of confusion. We don't know
01:59:16
what's coming next. There's that fear.
01:59:18
There's that anxiety.
01:59:21
And that's okay.
01:59:23
>> And that's okay.
01:59:24
>> Yeah. It's such a vulnerable book.
01:59:26
There's like so much so much
01:59:28
vulnerability in there. Is is there
01:59:29
anything that was ultimately left out
01:59:31
that you're like uh on the fence about?
01:59:33
>> Yeah.
01:59:34
>> Yeah. And maybe that's another book.
01:59:36
>> Yeah.
01:59:37
>> Um
01:59:37
>> just not ready yet.
01:59:40
>> Not ready. But also for me when I was
01:59:44
writing that book my sons
01:59:48
were 8 n and I kind of go
01:59:52
if there's things that I want to express
01:59:55
and a book for the world to know.
01:59:58
>> I want my sons to know first
02:00:02
>> if it is all appropriate to be able to
02:00:05
put that all into a book.
02:00:08
And that was the measure for me.
02:00:11
And so, yeah, maybe one day there'll be
02:00:13
other things, there'll be another book,
02:00:16
but that won't happen until I've had
02:00:19
>> conversations with my sons when at the
02:00:21
appropriate age.
02:00:22
>> Yeah.
02:00:23
>> Yeah.
02:00:24
>> When you um I'm probably projecting
02:00:26
here, but when you got that first
02:00:28
finished copy back from the publishers,
02:00:30
>> Yeah.
02:00:30
>> you rip open that bag, um did you feel
02:00:33
sick? Like there's so much so much
02:00:36
oversharing in there in in the best
02:00:38
possible way. But were you like, "Oh my
02:00:40
god, what have I done?"
02:00:41
>> No.
02:00:42
>> Did you have that moment or No,
02:00:43
>> no. No, not at all. When I opened When I
02:00:47
opened it up,
02:00:49
my husband was with me.
02:00:52
I don't know. I just I was proud.
02:00:56
>> Cool.
02:00:56
>> Because it was something I never thought
02:00:58
that I would do.
02:01:00
something that I probably had never
02:01:03
backed myself to be able to do.
02:01:07
And that
02:01:09
when I was asked to write a book years
02:01:12
beforehand, I went, who wants to
02:01:16
hear about me? Who wants to read a my
02:01:18
story? Who wants to, you know?
02:01:22
And so for for me, it was a symbol of
02:01:27
actually this isn't about anybody else.
02:01:30
This is about me having the courage to
02:01:34
tell my story.
02:01:37
And it didn't matter
02:01:40
whether anybody would read it or not. It
02:01:42
was about me actually going, "This is
02:01:45
something I want to do." I mean, of
02:01:47
course, the publishers want you to sell
02:01:49
a few of the books, right? Um,
02:01:52
>> at least want to make that that that
02:01:54
minimal advance.
02:01:54
>> That's right.
02:01:56
>> But for me, that's what it was. It was
02:01:58
just a moment
02:02:00
to reflect and go and go you. Hey, this
02:02:04
little girl from Pville with a book. Who
02:02:06
knew?
02:02:06
>> Well, you you didn't care if people read
02:02:08
it or not, but people definitely did
02:02:09
read it. Were you Yeah. What was the
02:02:11
reaction like in general? Must have been
02:02:13
overwhelmingly positive, right?
02:02:15
>> Yeah. I mean, I haven't had any negative
02:02:18
back from it. Um, and again, I think for
02:02:21
a lot of people it was about
02:02:24
they could see themselves in different
02:02:26
parts of my journey. Whether that was
02:02:28
reclaiming
02:02:30
uh my language, whether that was my
02:02:33
honesty about being a first-time mom and
02:02:36
an older mom, whether that was about
02:02:38
grief, you know, all of those stories,
02:02:41
somebody's got their own story. And so,
02:02:43
I think for those who read it, there was
02:02:45
a connection in some way. And I think
02:02:48
that's what people resonated with and
02:02:50
appreciated.
02:02:51
>> Yeah.
02:02:51
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. We haven't even talked
02:02:53
about Yeah. you being an older mom or or
02:02:55
your meet cute with Dean, your husband.
02:02:57
I feel like this is almost mythical now.
02:02:58
Like people can Google it. But yeah, you
02:03:00
you guys you met at like 40 at a bar and
02:03:03
you were married within a It was like
02:03:05
true love at first sight. Yeah.
02:03:06
>> You're married with like within a year.
02:03:08
>> Yeah. We were engaged within 10 days. I
02:03:11
think it was
02:03:12
>> unreal.
02:03:12
>> With a bread tie.
02:03:14
>> That seems that seems madness, right?
02:03:17
Yeah. Or
02:03:17
>> is it just a case of when you know, you
02:03:18
know?
02:03:20
>> No, it's madness on a level.
02:03:22
>> No, but it's but it's not madness though
02:03:24
because it's it's it's been working
02:03:26
successfully.
02:03:27
>> Yeah. I mean, God, like any
02:03:29
relationship, you have your your ups and
02:03:31
downs. But I think for us, we were at an
02:03:33
age where we weren't mcking around. I
02:03:37
mean, the first night I asked him, "Do
02:03:38
you want more children?" Two beautiful
02:03:40
daughters. And he said to me, "Do do you
02:03:43
do you want more children?" He said, "I
02:03:45
could go either way." And I said, "Yeah,
02:03:46
I do." And I mean, it was a pretty
02:03:50
forward conversation to have and yes,
02:03:51
we'd had a few under the belt, but you
02:03:53
know, you kind of get to a stage you go,
02:03:55
"Are we doing like if this is if this is
02:03:58
on, it's on." Like,
02:03:59
>> well, you're 40 at the time, so 40
02:04:01
time's running out. Time's running out.
02:04:03
>> Tick tock, tick tock.
02:04:04
>> But I don't know. It was one of those
02:04:06
moments where we both knew when we saw
02:04:07
one another.
02:04:09
Yeah. Did
02:04:10
>> Did you think that ship had sailed for
02:04:11
you? Like becoming becoming a mom to
02:04:13
your own biological kids?
02:04:16
No,
02:04:18
>> I knew time was running out and I didn't
02:04:19
know whether I could have children,
02:04:21
>> but I still was hopeful that I could.
02:04:26
>> Yeah. And we were pregnant within 4
02:04:30
months.
02:04:32
Yeah. Of meeting.
02:04:34
>> Incredible.
02:04:35
>> Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a pretty cool
02:04:38
story.
02:04:39
Um,
02:04:39
>> it's a classic JM, isn't it?
02:04:41
>> I'm sure I've got my version. And I'm
02:04:42
sure my husband's got his version of it
02:04:44
as well. But you know, again, you don't
02:04:46
do things by halves, man. You're either
02:04:47
in or you're in or not.
02:04:50
>> It's so cool. It's I'm I'm so pleased
02:04:52
that you've Yeah, you you found your
02:04:53
forever person.
02:04:54
>> Yeah. Thank you.
02:04:55
>> Yeah.
02:04:55
>> Thank you.
02:04:56
>> Um Jeez, we've been going just over two
02:04:58
hours. Home stretch now. Just got How do
02:05:00
you find it reflecting on everything
02:05:02
you've done? I I gather you're quite a
02:05:03
forward thinking person, so you're more
02:05:05
interested in what's next rather than
02:05:07
what's been.
02:05:08
>> Yeah. And a lot of stuff
02:05:12
I I've actually packed away. I you know
02:05:16
because you're right because I do think
02:05:18
about what's coming next as opposed to
02:05:20
you know what's happened.
02:05:22
>> I
02:05:24
use what's happened in the past to
02:05:26
inform you know the different decisions
02:05:27
that I make in the future. But
02:05:29
ultimately
02:05:31
>> I just want to keep moving forward. Mhm.
02:05:36
>> I mean, on a level, I I enjoy it
02:05:39
because it's nice to reflect on some of
02:05:41
the things that I've done in the past
02:05:43
that I might have forgotten about.
02:05:46
But the honest truth is
02:05:49
it's not a comfortable space for me to
02:05:51
be in.
02:05:52
>> Yeah.
02:05:54
>> We didn't even talk about you
02:05:55
representing New Zealand at Touch
02:05:56
either.
02:05:58
Like, oh my god, you're such an
02:06:00
overachiever. What year were you in the
02:06:01
NZ Touch team? I don't know. Um
02:06:03
>> Oh, come on.
02:06:04
>> No, no, no, no.
02:06:06
>> Were you in there with any of the
02:06:07
Yonkees? Like George Yon?
02:06:09
>> No. He was in my touch team in Palmston.
02:06:11
He was a legend. Played for New Zealand.
02:06:13
>> Oh, look. Look, I can't remember names.
02:06:15
I remember faces.
02:06:17
Um I mean quite often people come, oh,
02:06:20
we played in such and such. And I'm
02:06:21
like,
02:06:24
>> cool.
02:06:25
>> You meet so many people.
02:06:26
>> No, no, no, no, no. But again, I think
02:06:28
that is a little bit because I was
02:06:30
always
02:06:33
striving and trying, you know, the next
02:06:34
thing. I never never sat in the moment.
02:06:37
I never actually
02:06:40
and I think about this with the Black
02:06:42
Ferns and the way they celebrate one
02:06:43
another and the way they celebrate
02:06:45
moments, whether it's a win or a loss,
02:06:46
they just, you know, they sit in it. I
02:06:49
don't think that's anything that I ever
02:06:51
did. It was kind of like, oh yeah, won a
02:06:53
national next. Oh, yeah. On to the next
02:06:55
thing.
02:06:57
And so a lot of faces, you know, a lot
02:06:59
of names and events that I've I can't
02:07:03
remember or forgotten about because I
02:07:05
was too focused on what was the next
02:07:08
thing.
02:07:10
>> But I I think it was 99 the 99 World Cup
02:07:13
I went to in Sydney
02:07:15
for touch ripped off. Anyway, that's
02:07:18
another story.
02:07:20
>> What color medal did you get?
02:07:21
>> Silver.
02:07:22
>> Another silver
02:07:23
>> to Australia.
02:07:27
Jeez. Quarter of a century on, still
02:07:29
bitter about it.
02:07:30
>> I know. And I still remember it, too.
02:07:31
But anyway,
02:07:33
um
02:07:35
>> Yeah.
02:07:36
>> Oh, that's cool.
02:07:37
>> That was another time. Yeah.
02:07:39
>> Um what's the biggest mistake you think
02:07:41
you've ever made?
02:07:51
Oh, that's a
02:07:57
I'm sure there have been a few.
02:08:03
You don't get to 50 without some
02:08:05
missteps, eh?
02:08:08
>> Yeah, but again, I tend to look at them
02:08:09
and go, "Yeah, okay. Screwed that up.
02:08:14
>> How do I be better?"
02:08:17
>> I don't know. The thing that really pops
02:08:19
in my mind is just doubting myself. Mhm.
02:08:22
>> That would be the biggest mistake.
02:08:24
>> And doing it over and over again
02:08:27
>> or doubting yourself over and over
02:08:28
again.
02:08:29
>> Doubting myself.
02:08:30
>> Yeah.
02:08:33
>> Are you managed to Are you at a stage in
02:08:35
life now where you can see past that?
02:08:37
>> Yep. Totally. It's not like those
02:08:38
narratives still don't pop in my head,
02:08:40
but I just know how to deal with them a
02:08:42
bit better nowadays.
02:08:43
>> Um I think
02:08:44
>> that's how just how the human brain
02:08:45
works. It's wired to the negative a bit.
02:08:47
>> Yeah. And it's there to try and protect
02:08:49
you. Um,
02:08:51
and it's just a matter of rewiring it or
02:08:54
interrupting it or dealing with it
02:08:56
however you know you you can deal with
02:08:59
it. But
02:09:01
>> yeah, off the top of my head, that's
02:09:04
>> Yeah,
02:09:04
>> that's a great answer. So unexpected,
02:09:06
but so great.
02:09:07
>> What does success mean to you now?
02:09:10
>> Um,
02:09:13
it's the little things. It's the little
02:09:16
things.
02:09:17
It's the not losing my [ __ ] with my
02:09:19
sons,
02:09:20
>> which you did yesterday.
02:09:21
>> Which I did yesterday. Oh gosh.
02:09:26
>> Oh, you're only human though. They're
02:09:28
9year-old boys.
02:09:29
>> I know. I know. I know.
02:09:32
It this this last few months has been
02:09:34
really really interesting. And I kind of
02:09:38
think
02:09:42
success for me now
02:09:45
is being
02:09:47
content with whatever is happening. H
02:09:52
>> so
02:09:56
when I'm feeling stressed with my sons
02:10:01
actually
02:10:04
guess that's normal but flipping it and
02:10:06
going but I might not have if I was
02:10:10
still working I might not have had the
02:10:12
opportunity to actually
02:10:14
>> have this moment with my sons no matter
02:10:16
whether it's a good one or a bad
02:10:20
But that for me in its own small way is
02:10:24
success of flipping that narrative and
02:10:26
going actually yes this isn't ideal but
02:10:29
I have the opportunity to be in this
02:10:32
moment with my sons
02:10:34
>> reframing it.
02:10:34
>> Yeah.
02:10:35
>> Yeah. Instead of I mean if it was this
02:10:36
time last year you may have been on your
02:10:38
phone responding to emails and
02:10:39
>> I would have been at work.
02:10:41
>> Yeah.
02:10:41
>> We would have been in prep mode before
02:10:42
the show started.
02:10:44
>> I wouldn't have been at home. The boys
02:10:45
would have been somewhere else. Um, you
02:10:48
know, last night success for me is my
02:10:52
son had his mates over.
02:10:55
I'm about to go from zero to six with my
02:10:59
son.
02:11:01
And he goes, "Just listen. You're not
02:11:04
listening to me."
02:11:07
And I stopped and I went, "Right." And I
02:11:10
looked at him and he explained
02:11:13
what he was saying.
02:11:16
The reason that's success for me is
02:11:18
because last year
02:11:21
when I was deep in work, I wouldn't have
02:11:25
stopped.
02:11:26
>> I wouldn't have taken a breath and went,
02:11:30
"Okay, as much as I really want to have
02:11:33
a go now, actually, he's telling me what
02:11:35
he needs. I need you to listen to me,
02:11:37
mama, because you're not listening to
02:11:38
me."
02:11:39
>> That for me is success. So I'm learn
02:11:42
trying to learn now to actually
02:11:48
enjoy those moments
02:11:52
and
02:11:55
like you say reframe it.
02:11:57
>> Yeah.
02:11:59
>> Yeah. It's a privilege and you'll be
02:12:00
able to do I don't know if they'll
02:12:02
they'll want you to do school drop off
02:12:03
but you'll be you'll be in a position
02:12:04
where you can no grandfather does school
02:12:06
drop off. He always has. M
02:12:08
>> um
02:12:09
>> so we're very lucky whereby uh Dean's
02:12:12
parents live with us.
02:12:13
>> They live upstairs. So Pop's always
02:12:15
taken uh the boys to and from school and
02:12:19
so that's his routine. That's his time
02:12:20
that he spends with the boys.
02:12:23
>> Um yeah, like I think they enjoy me
02:12:26
being home
02:12:27
>> to a certain extent
02:12:30
and then I think there's times that they
02:12:31
go, "Oh, can you just go back to work?
02:12:33
Like can you just not hang out with us?"
02:12:36
Like sometimes I'll go and sit in the
02:12:37
room with them. You know, they're
02:12:38
sitting and watching TV and
02:12:40
>> I'll sit in there and they'll go, "What
02:12:42
are you doing in here? What do you
02:12:44
want?"
02:12:45
>> I just want to hang out with you. Oh,
02:12:47
how long are you going to stay?
02:12:50
>> You want me to go, son?
02:12:52
Yeah.
02:12:56
Is that We laugh about it, but is it
02:12:58
sort of is it cute or is it sort of does
02:13:00
it sting a little?
02:13:01
>> No, I love it because you know they know
02:13:02
what they want. They don't they don't
02:13:06
have an issue with saying, you know,
02:13:09
what they think. There are moments where
02:13:11
they'll look at me and they'll go,
02:13:12
"Okay, I think mom's a little bit
02:13:13
vulnerable right now." No, you can stay
02:13:15
for a little. You can stay.
02:13:17
>> Yeah.
02:13:18
>> So, they have their moments, but you
02:13:19
know, they speak their mind.
02:13:21
>> Yeah.
02:13:22
>> So, as we've established, um, you've
02:13:24
done so much, but there is still so much
02:13:25
life ahead. Are you proud of who you're
02:13:27
becoming?
02:13:31
>> Yeah.
02:13:32
>> Yeah.
02:13:36
As I said earlier, I think the best is
02:13:38
is yet to to come. And
02:13:43
>> I mean, I've always been proud of
02:13:45
myself.
02:13:49
>> I just can't wait to step into this next
02:13:52
season, whatever that looks like,
02:13:53
>> and what more I can achieve.
02:13:55
>> What do you think has been the um the
02:13:57
the best season and the hardest season
02:13:58
of your life so far?
02:13:59
>> Oh, god. Dom.
02:14:03
Sorry.
02:14:03
>> Can I just skip through these if
02:14:05
>> No, no, no. I'm just like
02:14:07
>> now is the best season. Now is the
02:14:09
hardest season. Whatever season you're
02:14:11
in, I think that's it.
02:14:14
>> Like it's the best because I'm exploring
02:14:16
what
02:14:17
what life could potentially look like.
02:14:19
And it's the toughest cuz I don't know
02:14:20
what it's going to look like.
02:14:21
>> Yeah.
02:14:23
And again, you know, I can reflect back
02:14:25
on different moments in time, but for
02:14:28
for what purpose,
02:14:30
>> man, that's such a good answer. I can
02:14:32
see why you've had so much success. Eh,
02:14:35
>> just just the mindset. Yeah, I can
02:14:37
completely
02:14:38
>> It's just the Yeah, just the the
02:14:40
competitiveness, the just like parking
02:14:42
stuff and just moving on to the next
02:14:44
thing. Just constantly looking forward.
02:14:46
>> Uh yeah, and again, I mean, it sounds
02:14:48
>> and being disappointed with silver
02:14:50
medals. I mean, it all sounds, you know,
02:14:53
like you just kind of get on with
02:14:54
things, but again, there's a lot of
02:14:56
there's a lot of work I've had to do and
02:14:59
a lot of um, you know, pain, hurt,
02:15:03
disappointment, all of those things that
02:15:05
are wrapped up in all of that.
02:15:07
>> What sort of work? Like, have you had
02:15:09
any therapy or anything?
02:15:10
>> Yeah, I've um been and we've got a
02:15:13
family therapist. So every now and again
02:15:16
my boys will go and see her when I feel
02:15:18
like we're missing something.
02:15:22
They'll go and and chat with her. Um
02:15:26
me um working through some of my own
02:15:30
stuff, my husband working through some
02:15:31
of his own stuff, us working together,
02:15:34
>> you know, through some of our things
02:15:35
because I think
02:15:37
>> it's really important to be able to do
02:15:40
that.
02:15:41
um
02:15:44
and not stay stuck
02:15:48
and have somebody who can
02:15:52
make sense of where you're at
02:15:56
>> and help you make sense of it more
02:15:58
importantly.
02:15:59
>> Yeah. Just give you a different way of
02:16:00
reframing some things.
02:16:01
>> Yeah. And so I think that's really
02:16:03
important. So, I've done that, you know,
02:16:05
and again, when it came to grief,
02:16:06
actually, just listening to podcasts,
02:16:08
trying different things, writing things
02:16:10
down, um, going to the beach, going for
02:16:14
walks, you know, all of those sorts of
02:16:16
things where I'm
02:16:19
constantly trying to learn. Mhm.
02:16:22
>> Uh and again I you know reflection is
02:16:24
something that's really really important
02:16:26
for me to be able to understand why I've
02:16:28
done things that I've done you know why
02:16:30
I'm thinking the way that I'm thinking
02:16:31
to make sense of it and then to be able
02:16:33
to move on from it
02:16:35
>> and not just continue in the same old
02:16:38
patterns and habits.
02:16:39
>> Yeah.
02:16:40
>> That don't serve you. Um
02:16:44
>> yeah,
02:16:46
>> you you mentioned um at the very
02:16:48
beginning um about your journaling
02:16:50
habit.
02:16:50
>> Yeah.
02:16:50
>> Yeah. What does what does that look
02:16:52
like? Is it like um just five minutes of
02:16:53
writing gratitude or
02:16:55
>> Yep. So first thing in the morning, I'll
02:16:57
write down uh three things I'm grateful
02:17:00
for in this moment, but three things
02:17:02
that I'm grateful for that are coming in
02:17:04
the future. So whether that looks like
02:17:06
mortgage free, more time, whatever it
02:17:09
is. Oh, so almost like manifestation in
02:17:11
a way.
02:17:12
>> Yeah.
02:17:13
>> What I want my future to look like and
02:17:16
then just writing whatever's in my head.
02:17:21
Um,
02:17:23
and it took me a long time to actually
02:17:25
get around to journaling because I
02:17:27
always thought that I could work through
02:17:28
things in my mind to try and unpack
02:17:31
things in my mind. But then, you know, I
02:17:33
realized that actually that narrative
02:17:35
just kept going round and round and I
02:17:37
wasn't actually getting it out, which is
02:17:39
what journaling does.
02:17:40
>> But it also helps me make sense of
02:17:42
different ways that I'm thinking about
02:17:43
why did I respond in this certain way.
02:17:45
And actually when I start writing, that
02:17:48
becomes clear. And again, whether that's
02:17:50
about ego, whether that's, you know,
02:17:52
whatever it is,
02:17:54
that inevitably will come out in my
02:17:56
journaling. May not be that day. it
02:17:58
might be 3 or 4 days later when I'm
02:18:00
just, you know, whatever's in my head
02:18:02
and then I make the connection.
02:18:04
>> So, it's been a really powerful tool for
02:18:06
me to be able to make sense of things
02:18:08
but also let a whole lot of stuff go.
02:18:12
But it also
02:18:16
um you know, like I was writing some
02:18:19
things down and then I realized there
02:18:20
was a little bit of resentment in there
02:18:21
or where's that coming from? Why? which
02:18:24
then prompted a conversation between my
02:18:26
husband and I about how I was feeling
02:18:28
about, you know, different things. Not
02:18:30
major,
02:18:31
>> but it's one of those things whereby had
02:18:33
I left it, that would have accumulated,
02:18:35
become something bigger, and then before
02:18:38
I know it, I'm blowing up.
02:18:40
And I I've leared now that's not where I
02:18:43
want to end up. And so having
02:18:46
conversations early, having
02:18:47
uncomfortable conversations,
02:18:50
you know, when they're needed
02:18:52
is
02:18:55
powerful
02:18:56
>> not only for you as an individual, but
02:18:58
also for us in our relationship as well.
02:19:01
>> Are you good at those tough
02:19:02
conversations or do
02:19:03
>> never used to be.
02:19:04
>> You procrastinate with them.
02:19:05
>> It never used to be. Um, I was very
02:19:08
much, well, I'm right and you just have
02:19:10
to adjust cuz this is how I am and you
02:19:14
know don't like it. Oh well. I was very
02:19:17
much like that.
02:19:19
>> And my beautiful husband has
02:19:22
>> Yeah.
02:19:23
>> had had a lot of patience with me
02:19:28
and because ultimately we just we want
02:19:31
to have a happy relationship.
02:19:36
And that happens because we put work
02:19:38
into it.
02:19:39
>> And again, that's the hard
02:19:40
conversations. And knowing
02:19:44
I can't have this conversation right
02:19:46
now. I know it's important, but actually
02:19:49
if you push me once more, I'm going to
02:19:51
say something that I will regret or that
02:19:53
I don't want to say. And so let's have
02:19:57
it, but I just need time to I don't know
02:20:01
get rid of the anger or everything else
02:20:04
that you know I'm feeling in this
02:20:06
moment.
02:20:07
>> And him having the patience to go that's
02:20:09
cool and whether it's a day later or a
02:20:12
week later actually sitting back down
02:20:13
and going okay so what happened?
02:20:18
>> So making sure that we're both safe when
02:20:19
we go into those conversations and that
02:20:21
it's not a conversation to hurt one
02:20:23
another. It's actually just to unpack
02:20:24
and try and figure out
02:20:25
>> what happened and then how do we
02:20:28
>> how do we deal with that not only now
02:20:30
but in the future
02:20:32
>> because I don't want to be walking
02:20:33
around the house walking on eggshells. I
02:20:36
don't want to be not being able to
02:20:38
express myself and vice versa
02:20:40
>> or just building resentment over time.
02:20:42
building resentment over time and then
02:20:44
not even realizing, can't even remember
02:20:45
what started that because there's been
02:20:47
so much accumulation and holding on to
02:20:49
stuff
02:20:50
>> and not actually confronting one another
02:20:52
and going, "Hey, look, this is something
02:20:53
that we actually need to talk about.
02:20:55
It's ugly, you know, but in order for us
02:20:58
to continue to keep growing, then we
02:21:01
need to do and have those
02:21:02
conversations." And so I'm grateful for
02:21:05
him for being so patient with me, me
02:21:08
flying off the handle and, you know,
02:21:10
being very it's all about me
02:21:14
and gently
02:21:16
over the years
02:21:20
pushing me into that space where we now,
02:21:22
you know, it's still not easy, but when
02:21:24
there's something that comes up, it's
02:21:25
actually going, "Hey, we need to talk
02:21:26
about this."
02:21:28
>> Yeah. Cuz it's confronting, right? Um,
02:21:31
>> well, it's just easier not to have these
02:21:33
conversations than to have them.
02:21:34
>> Yeah. And you just carry on with your
02:21:36
life.
02:21:37
>> But where's the depth?
02:21:39
>> Yeah.
02:21:39
>> Where's the depth in the relationship if
02:21:41
those are the things that you're afraid
02:21:43
to
02:21:44
>> confront? Everything's on a surface
02:21:46
level.
02:21:46
>> Yeah.
02:21:47
>> And then, you know, it's easy to look at
02:21:50
other people's relationships and pick
02:21:53
out of those, but actually, what about
02:21:54
your own?
02:21:55
>> You know,
02:21:56
>> 100%.
02:21:57
>> Yeah.
02:21:58
>> Um, God, this has been so great. I I
02:22:00
love your journaling practice as well.
02:22:02
Um like the the thought about like
02:22:04
writing thing three things in the future
02:22:05
that you're thankful for. I never
02:22:07
thought about that. I mean I'm going to
02:22:08
start doing that. You weren't doing this
02:22:09
during the breakfast years were you?
02:22:12
>> When did you start journaling?
02:22:12
>> Uh no I've been this you know kind of
02:22:15
gratitude journaling all of this is
02:22:17
practices that have kind of come and
02:22:18
gone over the years.
02:22:21
And it's usually I'll bring it back when
02:22:25
I feel like things
02:22:28
are getting away on me and I always
02:22:30
return to those practices that I know
02:22:32
work for me. So it's not something I
02:22:35
will do religiously every day. I will do
02:22:38
it for a few weeks and then I know this
02:22:42
is my pattern. It'll kind of drop off
02:22:43
for a bit and then I go, okay, that's
02:22:45
something I need to bring back cuz
02:22:46
there's stuff going on my head that's
02:22:48
still going around. So, I need to
02:22:50
actually write this down.
02:22:52
So, it's actually something I've been
02:22:53
doing for years.
02:22:54
>> Wow.
02:22:55
>> Off and on. Um, but I know the power of
02:22:59
it and I know how it's worked for me.
02:23:02
>> And I know a lot of people, you know,
02:23:04
they've heard about this kind of
02:23:06
practice and they go, "Yeah, whatever."
02:23:09
>> But it works.
02:23:10
>> I always thought it was a bit woo, but
02:23:12
it makes you so much more. It just opens
02:23:14
your mind to all the great things that
02:23:15
are happening around you every day.
02:23:17
>> And it just reframes your mind. And
02:23:19
that's why I do it in the mornings, you
02:23:20
know, or at night if I'm struggling to
02:23:22
go to sleep, I'll think about a couple
02:23:23
of good things that have happened that
02:23:24
day.
02:23:26
>> But what it does do is it reframes your
02:23:28
lens in which you move into the day
02:23:30
with. You know, get up,
02:23:33
do what you need to do. You know, for me
02:23:35
that's working out,
02:23:38
having breakfast first thing when I get
02:23:40
up, working out, and sitting down for 5
02:23:43
minutes. It doesn't have to be long just
02:23:45
to sit there and go, "Okay, so these are
02:23:47
the good things that are happening in my
02:23:49
life." I think we, you know, when you
02:23:50
look at social media and how much access
02:23:52
we have to other people's lives, it's
02:23:54
easy to look at your own and go, "God,
02:23:56
our shit,"
02:23:57
>> you know, or
02:23:59
>> I wish that I was living that life and
02:24:01
reminding ourel that's a snapshot of
02:24:03
somebody's life,
02:24:05
>> but actually less time focused on that
02:24:07
and more time focused on the things that
02:24:09
you do have.
02:24:10
>> Yeah. You know, for me, it's grateful
02:24:12
having my mom still with us. It's
02:24:14
grateful a conversation that I had with
02:24:16
my son. It's grateful for being able to
02:24:21
have the practice of sitting down and
02:24:23
journaling and actually get some of the
02:24:24
stuff that's going around in my head out
02:24:26
and to try and make sense of it. It's
02:24:28
the simple things um that we can focus
02:24:31
in on on our lives.
02:24:36
And
02:24:38
you know, again,
02:24:40
not wanting what everybody else has, but
02:24:42
actually just being grateful for what
02:24:44
you do have, which is a lot.
02:24:47
>> Absolutely. I hope some people will hear
02:24:49
this or watch this and start trying this
02:24:51
practice for themselves.
02:24:52
>> Me, too.
02:24:53
>> What three words would you like family
02:24:55
and friends to use to describe you? Say,
02:24:57
say your kids and your husband were in
02:24:59
the next room talking about you behind
02:25:00
your back.
02:25:02
>> Three three individual words. What would
02:25:04
you like them to say? God love,
02:25:06
passionate,
02:25:11
>> bossy.
02:25:13
>> Yeah, if they want to,
02:25:16
I wouldn't be offended.
02:25:19
Um,
02:25:21
I don't know what the word is for this,
02:25:23
but
02:25:25
uh wanting more for them.
02:25:28
always,
02:25:31
you know, like I'm trying to get my sons
02:25:33
to think about not just a job like you
02:25:35
be the boss like you do you do what
02:25:39
makes you happy but at the same time
02:25:42
think outside the square. I want you to
02:25:44
be have courage. I want you to be
02:25:48
ambitious for yourself.
02:25:51
um
02:25:53
and not just accept
02:25:55
what you see or what you hear actually,
02:25:58
>> which is why we encourage our sons,
02:26:00
which doesn't worry me when they go,
02:26:01
"Oh, I can you not be in here? Can you
02:26:03
go can you go over there?" Um because
02:26:07
you know we we want them to be
02:26:09
respectful, not be dicks, but at the
02:26:12
same time if they have something to say,
02:26:16
then they should say it in a way that's
02:26:19
kind and respectful,
02:26:21
but not be afraid to say it.
02:26:26
Yeah. Ambitious. That's what I want them
02:26:28
to be. I And I don't care what that
02:26:29
leads to. I just want them to be happy.
02:26:31
But I just
02:26:33
I want them to have bigger thinking than
02:26:35
what I did growing up.
02:26:39
>> You thought pretty big though, didn't
02:26:40
you?
02:26:42
>> Do you look back and think I could have
02:26:43
>> Oh, yeah. And again, you know, you talk
02:26:47
about mistakes and me talking myself
02:26:50
down and not backing myself enough.
02:26:54
>> Yeah, there's a certain humility about
02:26:56
that, too. But there's also a lot of it
02:26:57
that holds you back. M
02:27:00
>> could there have been other things I
02:27:01
could have achieved? Yeah, potentially
02:27:05
>> I just want them to know that every that
02:27:07
they can do whatever they want to do.
02:27:08
>> Yeah.
02:27:10
>> And you know when they talk about
02:27:11
wanting to do certain things and you
02:27:12
kind of in your head you're going, "Oh
02:27:13
god." You know, you know that only two
02:27:16
people make that or whatever.
02:27:18
>> Are they at the age yet where they've
02:27:20
said they want to be like a a YouTuber?
02:27:22
>> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always that
02:27:24
YouTuber and kind of go, "Oh, yeah,
02:27:26
cool." you know, but I'm learning to not
02:27:27
shut that down and kind of go,
02:27:29
>> you know, you do whatever you want. Um,
02:27:33
and I say within reason, but you know,
02:27:35
you just hope over time they kind of
02:27:37
they find they find their thing. But
02:27:41
>> yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether
02:27:42
I answered your question, but
02:27:43
>> Yeah. No, no, you did. Jeez, you're a
02:27:45
great mom, eh? They're very lucky.
02:27:47
>> Well, they might.
02:27:49
>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I
02:27:50
mean, like I say, I mean, I told you
02:27:52
about my night and my morning and, you
02:27:54
know, losing the plot with my sons.
02:27:59
I mean, you know, you you apologize,
02:28:04
but then you reflect and you go, God,
02:28:06
you know, I could have dealt with that
02:28:07
differently, you know.
02:28:08
>> Oh, you learn.
02:28:09
>> Yeah.
02:28:10
>> One final question. So, um, the Generate
02:28:12
Kiwi Saver scheme, they sponsor my show
02:28:14
and they're all about performance. They
02:28:16
put it first in everything they do.
02:28:17
What's something in your life that
02:28:18
you've obsessed over getting better at
02:28:20
and why did it matter so much to you?
02:28:24
>> Feel like there's numerous directions.
02:28:25
>> I was going to say,
02:28:31
>> yeah, there are lots of things.
02:28:33
>> Like the easy one would be netball. Like
02:28:35
you wanted to be a silver phone from the
02:28:36
age of 10 and that came true in your
02:28:38
20s.
02:28:41
>> But I feel like there's probably a lot
02:28:42
deeper things as well.
02:28:43
>> Yeah. I just I kind of, you know, and
02:28:45
again in the space that I'm in at the
02:28:47
moment, it's being a better mom, being
02:28:53
uh better at how I speak to myself,
02:28:58
um
02:29:00
better wife,
02:29:03
better stepmom, better friend. All of
02:29:06
those things I think
02:29:09
>> that really are important to me now or
02:29:13
not now and always have been, but I
02:29:15
guess because I have more capacity to be
02:29:17
able to focus in on those sorts of
02:29:19
things.
02:29:22
But yeah, when I talk about being better
02:29:24
at how I speak to myself, it's,
02:29:28
you know, again, I'm I've got my online
02:29:30
business that I'm running and I was
02:29:33
writing something else and I was going,
02:29:34
"Oh, yeah, business owner. Oh yeah,
02:29:36
entrepreneur." You know, those are words
02:29:38
that I never thought that I would
02:29:39
actually say about myself. But actually,
02:29:42
it's exactly what I'm doing at the
02:29:43
moment and owning that and being proud
02:29:46
of that.
02:29:49
But I think I approach
02:29:52
most things, if not everything, with the
02:29:54
mentality of just wanting to be better
02:29:55
at it.
02:29:58
>> Yeah, it's inspiring.
02:30:01
>> This has been a phenomenal conversation.
02:30:03
>> Two hours,
02:30:05
>> two and a half hours,
02:30:06
>> 28 minutes. Wow.
02:30:10
>> Look, a couple of nipple games and a bit
02:30:12
of overtime.
02:30:12
>> I left my children at home on their own,
02:30:14
so I hope they're okay.
02:30:17
>> Oh my god. Have they got access to the
02:30:19
inapp purchases with Roblox?
02:30:22
>> No.
02:30:22
>> You're going to have to go back to work
02:30:23
if that's the Hey, um Jeannie May
02:30:27
Clarkson Jay JMC, thank you so much for
02:30:30
coming today and being a guest on the
02:30:32
podcast.
02:30:32
>> Pleasure. It's been awesome. I've loved
02:30:34
every moment of it and again I'm Yeah.
02:30:36
Thank you for the opportunity to sit and
02:30:38
chat with you. I really do appreciate
02:30:40
it.
02:30:42
Come here. We're done.
