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The Man Behind New Zealand's Biggest TV Shows!

May 03, 2026 / 01:41:43

Video

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A guy was a crane firing at people on

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the street. That's gunfire. That's

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gunfire. He actually shot people. You

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don't know you've got them until you're

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I was in surgery within days. Who is

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Phil Smith?

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>> I'm a bit of a dreamer. Smith, if you

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think you can write, you're dreaming.

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You cannot write. It really scarred me

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for a long time. My dad leaning in the

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kitchen reading the Herald and going,

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"You wrote that?"

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>> Did you ever feel like your life was in

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danger over there?

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>> We just got ourselves right in the

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center of a firefight. That 50 m run, I

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probably did it faster than a sprinter

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by shaking so much. ANC had their main

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training camps in Tanzania. They could

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get rid of you in a nanocond. They'd

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hose you down once a day to start to

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rot. My father had sadly died. My mom

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died last year. I was lucky.

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>> Oh god, you're here. Come on. This is

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the center of performance. Whenever

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there's a top performance in New

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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

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for days. That's the boys who got the

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holl in more.

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He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the

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performance going?

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>> Top tier.

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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In

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here, you'll find our top performers

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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

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investments. Get in here Finn.

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>> Maximize. Generate.

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>> Putting performance first.

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>> Phil Smith. Welcome to my podcast.

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>> Brilliant. Great to be here. Very

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special day, isn't it?

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>> Oh, my birthday.

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>> Yeah, it's your birthday. February the

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3rd. What a day. What does it feel like

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to be um almost 50?

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>> I'm 53. Oh, that was a that was a that

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was a sweet intro. That was a sweet

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joke. I feel I feel good. How old are

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you? What are you

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>> I'm 61.

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>> Right. How do you feel? You you feel

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exactly the same?

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>> Really good. Really? After the triple

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heart bypass. Um Yeah. Great.

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>> Actually.

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>> Yeah. Yeah.

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>> When?

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>> Uh 7 years ago. Yeah. I just um didn't

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feel great and had a test and I had a

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thing called widow makers which is you

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don't know you've got them until you're

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dead. And uh I was in surgery within

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days. triple heart bypass and I was back

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at work uh within two weeks and now I

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can walk up hills and I pump oxygen

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through my heart. So basically I've had

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the spouting done and feel great.

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>> Do you need annual checkups or anything

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now or

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you do you do but

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you know effectively your heart's now

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getting heaps of oxygen, heaps of blood

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and so you know it gives you another 20

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years of life. So I was I was really

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fortunate that you know I think a lot of

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people both male and female testing you

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know testing testing. I've seen evidence

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of people not tested and then they get

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bad news and the thing is is yeah it's

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all available to us now. So I was really

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lucky.

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>> Are you are you quite good with your

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health now? Like you watch what you eat,

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watch what you drink.

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>> Yeah, I sort of got into keto um a long

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time ago and that that proved to me that

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you know I could knock about 7 kilos

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off. And so instead of rocking at you

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know 88 kilos, I'm sort of 82. Um watch

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my diet, don't drink too much. um

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exercise, you know, 10,000 steps a day,

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something like that, when when I can do

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it, uh keeps me really fit and healthy.

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>> What an interesting start to the

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podcast. I I I never knew I never knew

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that about you and but and then I've

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I've done all this research and there's

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so much stuff that I never I never knew

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about you because you you and I um uh

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met through a mutual friend, Matt Heath,

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who does the afternoon show on ZB. Um

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you came around to my house for New

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Year, I think a few years ago. We caught

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each other caught up with each other on

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the the New Year's Eve just gone and I I

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just thought, "Oh, Phil's a nice guy.

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Does some TV stuff, but I didn't really

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know much about you." But holy [ __ ]

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you're a legend.

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>> Well, yes. And I must say about that

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that visit to your your home. I do still

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have your airline pajamas that you gave

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me at the end after I got out of the spa

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uh where we celebrated New Year. It was

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a wonderful night. And Matt obviously is

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a dear friend of yours and mine. So,

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yeah, he brings people together. Well,

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by the way, I need to I don't know if

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I'm talking out of term here, but I need

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to tell you something about Matt Heath.

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Um, so he ran his first marathon last

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year. He did the Queenstown Marathon. I

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was um I was ing anding about coming

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down and sort of, you know, running with

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him like a sherper.

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>> And uh I said, "I think I've left it too

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late. I've got nowhere to stay." And he

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he he told me I was welcome to stay at

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your house.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So, I'm just I'm just letting you know

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that he's um Yeah.

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>> He's basically got a got a key to your

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house.

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>> He virtually has. Yeah. Well, we don't I

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shouldn't say this. We don't really have

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keys, but um you know, we're we're 25

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years down there and Le and I pretty

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much would know how to lock the house,

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and that's the truth. Uh and our house

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is halfway through the marathon, so if

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Matt wanted to drop out or you wanted to

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drop out, you can just swing into our

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place and jump in the spa. Oh,

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>> which is what he did at the end of the

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marathon. So, yeah.

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>> So, okay. Who is Phil Smith?

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>> Me?

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>> Yeah. Um, oh, I guess, uh,

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>> apart from bass player of the the

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nation's dreaming, nation's dreaming,

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>> a band that made $55 all up, I believe.

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>> Yeah. Yeah, we did. Um, yeah, we had a

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we had a short but spectacular career.

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So, um, I can talk about that later.

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But, uh, who am I? Uh, I guess I'm

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someone who loves, uh, creativity and

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ideas. I guess I'm a bit of a dreamer.

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I'm always sort of drifting off a bit.

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And you know the question where's Phil

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is famous within the company because I

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just tend to go to the next thing that

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I'm thinking about and in my head I'm

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often thinking of things and

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opportunities and ideas and so I love

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the fact that I can take that and

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convert that into employment and

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something physical for New Zealanders

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and you know it opens up so many

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exciting things. So work-wise, that's

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what I am. And then, you know, I'm a dad

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and I've got my beautiful son, beautiful

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wife, and we've got a really great

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little family, and we have a lot of fun.

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So, you know, those are my my two big

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things in life.

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>> That's a great answer. Um yeah, it's

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it's always interesting when you ask

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someone who who they are and how they

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answer because um the the internet

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answer is um sort of like career

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highlights, I guess, which includes 30

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film and TV awards and 60 odd TV shows

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that you're responsible of making. with

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with those um 30 odd film and TV awards,

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is there one that means the most?

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>> Um yeah, and definitely uh drama writer

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of the year uh for me was kind of

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affirmation like when I was in the sixth

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form, I wrote something and my teacher

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um he he basically read it out to the

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class and said, "Smith, if you think you

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can write, you're dreaming. You cannot

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write." And like it really scarred me

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for a long time and I thought, "Wow,

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okay, I can't write." And so I sort of

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took that into journalism and I I

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learned through some really great

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friends to Murphy and Paul Hlet at the

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Herald. We're all little cadetses. They

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sort of taught me how to write. And um

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from there on in I've kind of been able

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to tell myself, "Yes, I can ride." And

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then getting that award kind of I went,

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"Wow, yeah, yeah, I can definitely

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write." And so, you know, it was it it

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only took 40 years for me to get over uh

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John Kelllet and you know, at Westlake

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Boys, but um but yeah, that was that's

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the thing.

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>> So, you you wanted to be at Westlake

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Boys, you wanted to be a writer, you'd

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indicated your interest in being a

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writer when that's

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>> that is so damaging. Like, did you did

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you use it as um you did it sort of like

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um crush you temporarily at least or did

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you sort of use it as fuel?

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>> Um I still was had a passion for like

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the world, you know, as a kid. I was

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always like fascinated by Africa. I was

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fascinated by sport and the All Blacks

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and I kept scrapbooks and I followed the

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news and I was into the media. And so it

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was at Westlake where following year

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teacher just put me in touch with a guy

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called Richard Beck who now sort of runs

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the Warriors media and he got me onto a

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journalism course. And so I got a lot of

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opportunity out of that school in the

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end. They got me onto a journalism

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course. And then, you know, we were

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incredibly young. Like, I I think I was

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um 17 when I went to ATI journalism

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school. And then by 18, I was on the

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Herald. And um I still remember writing

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my first front page lead, which was it

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was about a David Bowie concert and

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everyone breaking in at Western Springs,

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getting through a fence, you know, of

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course that was a riot in those days.

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And I remember my dad like leaning in

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the kitchen reading the Herald and

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going, "You wrote that?" and it like

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destroyed all of his faith in

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journalism. He's like looking at me

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going, "How could they publish that?"

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Like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't uh

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he was super proud, but at the same

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time, he was gobsmacked that someone so

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young who had just gone through puberty

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is now published on the front page of

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the Herald. So, yeah, it was a young we

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were young. Yeah.

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>> What percentage of you do you think is

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um now like a a TV guy or a media guy

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and what percentage of you is

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entrepreneur? Oh, that's a wow, it's a

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really good question. But I think um

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having the skill of left and right brain

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is is quite uh that's what has got me to

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where I'm at. And I can see some of my

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contemporaries, the likes of like a

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Julie Christie, I think we both have

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left and right brain. So we're thinking

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business, business and ideas, concepts.

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And so a lot of people, you know, will

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be leftrain or rightrain, but when you

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can balance the two and you know,

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through my family, like my dad was an

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entrepreneur, he had his own company.

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Um, I sort of learned about business and

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it was sort of in my DNA. A lot of my

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friends had their own businesses. So,

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you know, I'm sort of 50%, you know,

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half the time thinking about the

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business, but then I've got the ability

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to be able to just click over and then

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use creativity. But by being creative

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and also being business, you can create

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for the business and that gives you an

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advantage. So when I'm writing and all

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of that, I know we can't shoot that

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scene or I know that this is what the

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client wants or I know these networks

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internationally want this kind of idea.

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So as a writer, I can use the creative

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side to achieve the business goals.

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>> [ __ ] this is going to be such a great

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chat. There's um Oh, there is uh Yeah,

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there's so much so much to get into.

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>> It's such an honor to have you here

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today and get get to know you on a

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different level to to um just sharing a

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sparkle with you.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So, born and raised in Southland before

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moving to Aland. Um I've heard you

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describe Southlanders as the border

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collies of the world, meaning the uh

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sort of friendly, curious, um and always

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wanting to help. What What sort of a dog

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breed would you be now?

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>> Um yeah. Okay. Uh, you know, I'd

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probably want to be what was what was

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that red dog? Uh, you know, the one in

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Australia in the movie, but um, probably

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more I think I've learned to be sort of

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less compliant and less worried about

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what other people think. So, I think a

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border collie is very, you know, very

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much a people pleaser. And at some

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point, you have to learn that people

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pleasing is a great endeavor. And I I

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probably have been that for most of my

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career, but sometimes I've learned the

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hard way that that's not the way to the

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top. That sometimes there has to be a

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bit of collateral damage. So you do have

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to have a bit of mongrel in you. So I'm

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going to be choosing a dog with I'm not

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a Rottweiler, but something with a

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little bit a little bit more spark than

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than that that people might back off

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from occasionally and realize that there

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is a sting in the tail. like, you know,

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it's not about retribution, but it's

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just um basically if people think you're

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weak and they sense weakness, then

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you're possibly not going to succeed.

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And so, you do have to have a tough

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spine. And um the border collie, whilst

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it's a lovely dog, it's it's the gravy

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really. It's the it's it's really

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beautiful, but you do need that you do

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need that spine.

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>> Maybe a German Shepherd then. It's a

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nice dog, very compliant, but you don't

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[ __ ] with one.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. you want to be like that.

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Yeah.

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>> It's that's disappointing to hear that.

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Um cuz I I I think you like from my

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dealings with you and these aren't

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business related dealings. They're just

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social dealings like you are just a

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really nice guy. Um it's a shame that

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you need to um develop that sort of

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streak, I guess, to succeed in business.

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>> Well, you do because you're really in

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business for your family. Like that's

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why I do it. I do it so that I have a

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nice family life and I do it because I

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find it really fun. So you do have to be

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on the game and very aware otherwise

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people you know will ride over you. It's

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a tough commercial industry now um our

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industry in particular. So you know that

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the the week will be flushed out and so

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you have to be very sharp especially in

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this day and age.

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>> So you mentioned before um your first

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journalism job um and the Bowie piece on

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the front cover of the New Zealand

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Herald. Um, yeah. What did journalism

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give you, if anything, that you still

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use in life now?

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>> Uh, well, it taught me uh that I'm

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lucky, you know, like I I I just can't

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believe how lucky New Zealanders are.

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And, you know, you see the world and you

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talk to people and you're you're

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inquisitive. And I've never been so

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happy to get on a plane and fly back to

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New Zealand at the end of last year from

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the UK, um, having spent like a month

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there and and working. And I was like,

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man, you know, we think, you know, you

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get back home and sometimes, you know,

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the Herald, we know their algorithms are

00:12:49

pumping out, you know, boy dies, man

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dies, shooting, death, stabbing, and all

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this. Man, you know, cost of living is a

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big thing, but the cost of living is the

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same everywhere. And one thing I've

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realized is just how blessed we are to

00:13:02

actually be a little bit removed from

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the world. You know, there's thousands

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of Americans trying to get visas to come

00:13:08

to this country now. And so, it's made

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me kind of look at the world. journalism

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taught me to look and talk and what it's

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done is made me appreciate like where I

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am and what we've got as a nation.

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>> I I think that relent relentless

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optimism that's something that all

00:13:22

entrepreneurs have in common. I've been

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lucky enough to have um like three of

00:13:25

New Zealand's um like big dogs on the

00:13:27

podcast like yeah Rod from Zero Sir

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Peter Be from Rocket Lab and from Zuru

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and Zealand now you and there's there I

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mean you're different different levels

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to the game. you're not in the private

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jet level, but you've done all right for

00:13:41

yourself. But but one thing I've noticed

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all entrepreneurs, regardless of the

00:13:44

size of them, have in common, it's just

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this um this this this I don't know,

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this optimism and this glass half full

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attitude.

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>> Absolutely. Like you just have to

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believe that you're going to convert

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something, which is a crazy observation

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and convert it into an idea that could

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be worth 10 or 15 million. And so you

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have to have complete optimism because

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you have to convince other people to

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risk their careers to give you money and

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trust you. So yeah, you have to be

00:14:08

constantly optimistic and and and that's

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what I do. So you know, I take small

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ideas and then just uh convince people

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that you know this is going to be

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brilliant. But it's based on my my gut

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belief, you know, what my gut believes.

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But the thing is is that you know the

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people that you've you've listed

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effectively have a missing chip and and

00:14:27

and that is like you would be worried to

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death if you went to bed every night and

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went through everything that can

00:14:34

potentially go wrong and how many mouths

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you're feeding and how many people

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you've got within your company and what

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if this goes wrong. You just worry

00:14:42

yourself to death. And so most people

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choose not to do that. You know,

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probably 90 95% of people go, I'm happy

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to just go to work, do a job, go home,

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get paid, have a brilliant life, and I'm

00:14:52

fully support that. I wish I'd done that

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sometimes. I don't actually. I don't. I

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don't. I've been very lucky to be free,

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you know, cuz you know, it's freedom.

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And that's one of the great things in

00:15:03

life that you need. But they it's a

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missing chip where you just,

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>> you know, there's risk, but you still

00:15:09

push forward because you have an inner

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belief. You absolutely believe you're

00:15:13

going to succeed.

00:15:15

Yeah. Why didn't you just stick with

00:15:16

journalism?

00:15:18

>> Uh, well, I kind of merged out of it

00:15:21

because I went from print journalism in

00:15:24

Africa and then I saw a lot of

00:15:25

television journalists working there and

00:15:27

met them and I sort of became their

00:15:29

runner basically. I was so young and

00:15:31

they were so old and I and I was seeing

00:15:34

so much in Africa visually that and

00:15:37

trying to write about it. And then when

00:15:38

I saw TV people come and film it, I

00:15:40

thought that's the way to go. I love

00:15:42

that. And so I kind of said to them, I

00:15:44

want to get into television. And they

00:15:45

said, what you should do is go back to

00:15:47

New Zealand. You're lucky. Take your

00:15:49

journalism back, get into television

00:15:51

journalism, and then see how it goes.

00:15:53

And I did that. And I became a TV

00:15:55

journalist and TV producer. And then the

00:15:57

entrepreneur kicked in, which is my dad

00:16:00

like, you know, always, you know, work

00:16:01

for yourself, work for your own

00:16:03

business. And, you know, I, you know,

00:16:05

again, I saw Julie Christie running her

00:16:07

company, Touchdown. Looked at that and

00:16:08

thought I could do that. And so I just

00:16:11

converted the business side and the

00:16:13

journalism side together. And we're

00:16:15

still journalists like we still produce

00:16:17

um you know 30 40 episodes of the Hoie

00:16:20

every year which is current affairs

00:16:22

which I executive produce. So we've got

00:16:24

a lot of journalism coming out of the

00:16:26

company and journalism feeds into

00:16:28

everything that I do. So, back to your

00:16:30

earlier question, like when you're

00:16:32

writing drama, um, because when I was a

00:16:34

young journalist, I started out by going

00:16:36

to the port and seeing doing the

00:16:38

shipping news, then you do the council

00:16:40

news, then you do the police news, and

00:16:42

you start to see how every system works.

00:16:44

So by the time you're 20, you kind of

00:16:46

know how the system works, how society

00:16:49

works, and you've met people who are

00:16:51

underdogs, you met wealthy. And so now

00:16:53

when I go to write drama, I've got this

00:16:55

absolute bank of knowledge. Like I know

00:16:58

how the shipping works in the world. I

00:17:00

know how a council works and and and how

00:17:03

they fight and bicker and all of this

00:17:04

and how the police work and and what

00:17:06

detectives are like. And so for me that

00:17:08

journalism has given me this huge bank

00:17:11

of information of how all of these

00:17:13

systems work within society. So it's

00:17:16

been useful.

00:17:17

>> Yeah. So you you were sharpening the ax.

00:17:19

You didn't know what you were sharpening

00:17:20

the ax for, but here we are. You

00:17:22

mentioned Africa just before. Yeah. By

00:17:24

by the age of 21, which is painfully

00:17:26

young. Uh you were the only Western

00:17:28

journalist in Tunisia.

00:17:29

>> Tanzania.

00:17:30

>> Tanzania. Yeah. Any any PTSD or the

00:17:33

things that you saw that still haunt you

00:17:35

to this day?

00:17:36

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, definitely you know

00:17:38

like um I think I think in our days when

00:17:43

we were doing war and war correspondence

00:17:45

pretty much the solution at the end was

00:17:47

to go back to London or go back to base

00:17:49

and then go out and drink some booulet

00:17:51

with the guys there and tell a few

00:17:53

stories then go home and so nowadays you

00:17:56

know you're going into you know

00:17:58

psychologists and counseling and talking

00:18:00

about what you've seen and seeing a lot

00:18:02

of death and destruction and all of

00:18:04

that. And so I I did see that um pretty

00:18:07

rampantly when I when I visited Bundi uh

00:18:10

and that was unintentional, but by going

00:18:13

there and seeing just how brutal the

00:18:15

world was um was really shocking. But

00:18:18

you know, I didn't do anything about it.

00:18:20

I just decided to live with it. And

00:18:22

everything else like you know, Romania

00:18:24

and other places like seeing people die

00:18:27

a lot a lot, you know, I just we just

00:18:30

had to live with it basically. So, I've

00:18:33

just kind of kind of put it away in a

00:18:35

corner.

00:18:36

>> Comes out. It comes out after a few

00:18:37

drinks at dinner parties sometimes. And

00:18:39

I think Leanne, my my wife, would prefer

00:18:41

me not to. She's, "Oh god, Phil's going

00:18:43

to start telling more stories now."

00:18:47

>> Your partners had them for she's like

00:18:49

booking an Uber at that point. Yeah. And

00:18:51

everyone else is like, you know, it it

00:18:53

is difficult sometimes.

00:18:56

>> Uh, what's the most frightening you've

00:18:57

ever been? Like, did you ever feel like

00:18:58

your life was in danger over there?

00:19:00

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I've I've

00:19:02

had multiple times. Uh Romania um we

00:19:06

just got ourselves right in the center

00:19:07

of a firefight. Um and uh my son still

00:19:11

watches the footage of it where we're

00:19:13

driving into a town Timwara and you know

00:19:16

it's absolutely rampant. You know,

00:19:17

security ters still firing at at the

00:19:19

public and a guy was up a crane firing

00:19:22

at um people on the street and we were

00:19:24

driving and the cameraman said, "Oh,

00:19:25

that's um there's a train going past or

00:19:28

something like can you hear that?" And

00:19:30

then it was like then someone said, "No,

00:19:32

[ __ ] That's that's gunfire. That's

00:19:34

gunfire." And like we stopped the car

00:19:36

and we looked up and there's a guy

00:19:37

basically in a crane just firing

00:19:41

firing at everyone around him from a

00:19:43

crane. Completely crazy. So we got out

00:19:46

of the car and all I thought like I

00:19:48

could see him turning and sort of

00:19:49

looking to us to fire and I just got my

00:19:52

head behind the wheel hub. You know, it

00:19:54

was only two wheel hubs you could hide

00:19:56

behind. And we all naturally put our

00:19:58

heads there because we'd seen what full

00:20:00

metal jacket bullets do through they

00:20:02

straight through cars, you know, so cars

00:20:04

no protection. And then we had to run

00:20:07

from the car to a bus. And that that 50

00:20:11

m run, I probably did it faster than a

00:20:14

sprinter, but each one of us, we just

00:20:16

watched and looked at the guy and he was

00:20:18

sort of firing around and looking. And

00:20:19

then you just had to time. And as he

00:20:21

turned, I was like, I just sprinted and

00:20:23

sort of looked at him and he sort of was

00:20:25

like, "Oh shit." And you know, by the

00:20:26

time he turned around and sort of took

00:20:28

aim, I just sprinted my 50 m behind this

00:20:31

bus where all these people were. And I

00:20:33

always remember they had they had a milk

00:20:35

bottle full of coffee and like this guy

00:20:37

said, "Here, have some of this." And I

00:20:38

took it and I shaking so much I dropped

00:20:42

the milk bottle and became really

00:20:43

unpopular behind the bus because I was

00:20:46

the guy that had broken the the milk

00:20:47

bottle full of coffee. And um but like

00:20:50

to finish that story, this guy was just

00:20:52

gladly, you know, he hit people. We saw

00:20:53

him hit people. He actually shot people.

00:20:56

a tank pulled up and this guy sort of

00:20:58

popped his head out and then a couple of

00:21:00

soldiers ran around and um one of them

00:21:03

just climbed up the crane quietly and

00:21:05

we've still got footage of it and he got

00:21:07

to the top and he just got his machine

00:21:09

gun and then he just popped the lid and

00:21:11

just went and just fired into the thing

00:21:14

and this guy is standing there like

00:21:16

happy and next minute he just got lead

00:21:18

right up him and then everyone just that

00:21:21

was it. The guy got down, had a smoke,

00:21:23

got back in the tank, the tank just

00:21:25

drove off. It was just you just witness

00:21:27

these things like

00:21:29

>> you're looking looking back looking back

00:21:30

now from the perspective of a of you

00:21:32

know 60-year-old man like do you think

00:21:35

you truly understood the risks you were

00:21:36

taking at that time?

00:21:37

>> No. No. I no I there's a lot of things I

00:21:40

didn't realize like even in in Tanzania.

00:21:43

Um I um thought that you know hey I'm a

00:21:46

journalist and I'm the only western

00:21:48

journalist in Tanzania and Tanzania is

00:21:50

safe. But I didn't realize it's a

00:21:52

socialist country uh supported by North

00:21:54

Korea, supported by China, Russia, and

00:21:57

um I naively turned up and they very

00:22:00

quickly thought I was actually a South

00:22:03

African. They thought he's just a South

00:22:05

African. What we didn't know is that ANC

00:22:07

had their main training camps in

00:22:09

Tanzania. And I actually eventually got

00:22:11

to them and went to the ANC conference

00:22:13

and met amazing people. But um you know

00:22:16

within about 2 months I was I was being

00:22:19

followed. But the guy, it was such a

00:22:21

poor country, he would wait outside and

00:22:24

I'd basically uh let him in my car and

00:22:26

he'd just drive around with me for the

00:22:28

day watching what I did. And so his job

00:22:30

was just to follow me around. And I look

00:22:32

back now and think, yeah, you know, if

00:22:34

they wanted to get they could off you,

00:22:36

they could get rid of you in in a nano

00:22:38

second. But I was kind of lucky the

00:22:40

Financial Times said Tanzania first.

00:22:42

They said, "We'll give you a soft little

00:22:44

safe country before we send you to

00:22:46

Nicaragua," which was the next one, or

00:22:48

or Ghana or Nigeria. That was that was

00:22:50

the plan. And uh so I was kind of lucky

00:22:53

even though I got arrested and you know,

00:22:54

time in jail there and expelled from

00:22:57

Tanzania. Um it was uh it was a soft

00:23:00

kind little country cuz I got out of

00:23:02

life and I look back now and go, I was

00:23:04

lucky.

00:23:06

>> Yeah. Let's talk about the the expulsion

00:23:07

and the the incarceration. How long were

00:23:09

you incarcerated for?

00:23:10

>> A week. Oh, a week.

00:23:12

>> Yeah.

00:23:12

>> Oh, I sort of imagined like half a day

00:23:14

or a few hours while they a week.

00:23:16

>> Yeah.

00:23:16

>> How was that terrifying?

00:23:17

>> Uh, yeah. No, it was um a lot of

00:23:19

negotiation um from who?

00:23:22

>> Uh well, fortunately the British High

00:23:24

Commission kind of adopted me is one of

00:23:28

their own like because I was Financial

00:23:30

Times and because I knew the British

00:23:31

High Commission really well um they came

00:23:34

in to bat for me because there's no New

00:23:36

Zealand high commission there. It was

00:23:38

the British Embassy. But it was just a

00:23:41

misunderstanding.

00:23:42

Of course,

00:23:44

it's always a misunderstanding. But um

00:23:47

I, you know, I just thought I was I I

00:23:50

was operating uh in incorrectly in a

00:23:53

country when you're based and resident

00:23:54

there. Like I I had reported a couple of

00:23:56

things that you kind of have to leave to

00:23:59

journalists that are visiting and I

00:24:00

actually I actually reported them and so

00:24:02

they got on to me and decided I had to I

00:24:04

had to leave the country. But in terms

00:24:07

of that process of expelling me, they

00:24:08

they bang me up in Arouchia, which is

00:24:10

right beside Mount Kilimanjaro. So, um,

00:24:14

I got picked up, uh, I was doing a story

00:24:16

on Prince Charles. They picked me up

00:24:18

slow. It was a slow arrest. I didn't

00:24:19

realize what was happening. Back to the

00:24:21

back to the police station into a cell

00:24:24

and then now we're going to, you know,

00:24:25

we're going to work through this

00:24:26

process. So, they were pretty nice to me

00:24:28

and in the end they but then they just

00:24:30

dumped me on the border and and left me

00:24:32

there. Um, and uh, you know, it was very

00:24:35

difficult. Kenya didn't want to take me

00:24:36

in. So I spend a day on the border

00:24:38

trying to get into Kenya. But I was a

00:24:39

PI, a prohibited immigrant from

00:24:41

Tanzania. And they made me sit and wait

00:24:44

the whole day. And at the end of the

00:24:45

day, I was thinking I'm going to be left

00:24:46

in this gap of, you know, 100 meters.

00:24:50

And this guy said, "Okay, we'll let you

00:24:52

um we'll let you come into Kenya for 24

00:24:54

hours." And then I went back to London

00:24:56

and they just laughed and said, "Oh,

00:24:57

we've all been chucked out of, you know,

00:24:59

one guy been pied about 30 times." Like

00:25:01

it was not it was nothing.

00:25:02

>> But they in your employers the

00:25:04

>> Yeah. Yeah. They're just like, "Oh yeah,

00:25:06

you got chucked out, so uh like move

00:25:08

on." It wasn't interesting. It barely

00:25:10

wasn't interesting to these guys.

00:25:13

>> There wasn't a lot of duty care in the

00:25:14

mid '80s, was there?

00:25:15

>> No. No. No. I mean, no, there wasn't.

00:25:18

But it was it was terrifying cuz Kenya,

00:25:20

they they don't like journalists, you

00:25:22

know, they the the local Reuters

00:25:24

journalists have been tortured when I

00:25:26

was there. And um I met him and I worked

00:25:29

with him and they had a they had a

00:25:32

process in um in Kenya called the

00:25:34

swimming pool at the police station

00:25:36

which is they put you in a room like

00:25:37

this and they just put water in about a

00:25:40

foot of water and you just stand in it

00:25:42

and then your feet rot then you sit on

00:25:44

your bottom and your bottom rots and you

00:25:46

stand on your feet and they hose you

00:25:47

down once a day and they leave you in

00:25:49

there for like days and you just start

00:25:51

to rot. They just it was cruel. And I

00:25:53

met this guy. He spent he'd spent days

00:25:55

in the swimming pool. So you you got to

00:25:58

be careful in those countries. And yeah,

00:26:00

so and long answer to short question.

00:26:03

Yeah, I was lucky.

00:26:06

>> And have you got possessions over there?

00:26:08

I believe you left behind like a a bag

00:26:10

of wheat.

00:26:10

>> I was chucked out. Yeah. I mean like

00:26:12

bangi was it was just absolutely they

00:26:15

just wrapped it up into fish and chip

00:26:18

paper. It was probably 20 cents and you

00:26:20

just got got masses in those days. Look,

00:26:22

I was in my early 20s and smoked a bit

00:26:24

of dope. I wasn't crazy on it, but um

00:26:27

but we learned I could just you could

00:26:29

just buy anything virtually for free.

00:26:31

You had so much money and you could

00:26:33

exchange on the black market. Like I

00:26:35

just had stacks and stacks of money and

00:26:37

I carried it around every day and give

00:26:38

it to lepers and stuff like that in

00:26:40

Tanzania. Um, so yeah, there was I have

00:26:44

got uh everything I had there I left

00:26:46

there cuz from Arouchia I was out over

00:26:48

the border into Kenya. And so I still

00:26:50

get messages from this guy years later

00:26:52

saying, "Your crap's still on the corner

00:26:54

of the Reuters's office in Darus Salam."

00:26:57

And I'm like, "Shit, I hope they don't

00:26:58

open the top drawer because there's like

00:27:00

there's half an ounce of of weed in

00:27:03

there." But um

00:27:04

>> might want a disciplinary disciplinary

00:27:06

hearing with you.

00:27:07

>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But um yeah, it it

00:27:11

it'll be wonderful to go back, but I

00:27:13

think that you know, even Tanzania's

00:27:14

changed, you know, it's not as it's a

00:27:16

different country now. So

00:27:17

>> yeah, for sure.

00:27:18

>> Um yeah, so this this is pre- internet

00:27:21

and everything. So your poor parents

00:27:22

back back in New Zealand, they would

00:27:24

have been blissfully unaware of what was

00:27:25

going on in your life.

00:27:26

>> Yeah. No, there's a story in the Oakland

00:27:29

Star about, you know, journalist in

00:27:30

prison in Tanzania. My mom worked as

00:27:33

stock broker in a stock broking agency.

00:27:35

Um and uh she was really proud of me and

00:27:39

like she she always pushed us away like

00:27:42

get out there see the world don't worry

00:27:44

about me you know my father had sadly

00:27:46

died and so but he too was was quite a

00:27:48

risk taker so my mom uh she enjoyed the

00:27:52

stories you know of oh you know my son's

00:27:54

doing this and that you know like all

00:27:56

parents and so um but yeah she was

00:27:58

worried of course she was worried but uh

00:28:00

she didn't really know what had happened

00:28:01

in Tanzaner until I was out and back in

00:28:03

London so so That's when she found out

00:28:06

so she didn't have to worry.

00:28:08

>> Was was it around this period of your

00:28:09

life that you connected with Jane

00:28:11

Goodall?

00:28:12

>> Yeah, that was Yeah, just um you know I

00:28:15

basically I met the Brits you know you

00:28:17

go into a town I sort of had the Hunter

00:28:19

S Thompson approach which is you know

00:28:20

you get a cheap motel a typewriter and a

00:28:22

rental car and you can do anything and I

00:28:25

sort of followed that. So I was I was

00:28:27

obsessed with Hunter S. Thompson and

00:28:29

every everything about him was a

00:28:30

journalist. And so yeah, I um got into

00:28:34

Tanzania and the first thing I rang the

00:28:36

British High Commission and the embassy

00:28:37

and there's always a woman there called

00:28:39

Katherine there. I don't know why all

00:28:41

the women in Africa are called

00:28:42

Katherine, but she invited me out to the

00:28:44

yacht club and I went out to the yacht

00:28:46

club cuz there were very few um

00:28:49

Europeans in in Tanzania at the time.

00:28:51

And um it was a little refuge away from

00:28:55

you know the craziness of living there.

00:28:57

And a woman uh one day said, "Oh, you

00:28:58

should meet Jane Goodle. She's a great

00:29:00

friend of mine." And I I went and met

00:29:02

Jane. And uh Jane was absolutely lovely.

00:29:05

I just went to her house and drank tea.

00:29:07

And you know, she had a cunning plan.

00:29:09

You know, there was a little bit of

00:29:10

black hatter about it. She had a plan.

00:29:12

And um she wanted me to go up to GMI.

00:29:14

And so she facilitated that and just

00:29:17

said, "Just cruise up. I'm there for a

00:29:18

month. Come and stay with me. Um you

00:29:20

know, I've got a I've got a story for

00:29:22

you." which was um basically chimpanzees

00:29:25

being smuggled out of Bundi for AIDS

00:29:27

experiments which was true and it was

00:29:29

happening. So they were they were needed

00:29:31

for AIDS experiments and it was

00:29:34

devastating to Jane that they were kind

00:29:35

of trying to get chimpanzees from her

00:29:38

region which is GMI. And so she kind of

00:29:40

wanted to know what was going on but boy

00:29:43

you know that was a dangerous

00:29:44

assignment. You know I I went to GMI. I

00:29:46

hung out with Jane

00:29:47

>> for a couple of weeks to start with.

00:29:49

Then she's like all right on your bus

00:29:50

you know up to Bjan Bora which is pretty

00:29:53

much like catching a bus the you know

00:29:55

these little boats to pull in and then

00:29:57

just up to Bjan Bora. And then I

00:29:59

investigated the story about chimps and

00:30:01

yeah that was pretty pretty crazy. But

00:30:03

staying with Jane I went back and um it

00:30:07

just established a it's not a

00:30:09

friendship. It was more like she was

00:30:10

sort of like my mom home away from home

00:30:12

because her son Grub was exactly the

00:30:15

same age as me and he was in London and

00:30:17

so she had this like kid turn up. So she

00:30:20

was sort of able to, you know, sort of

00:30:21

mother me a bit and, you know, fuss and

00:30:24

ask me about whether I had a girlfriend

00:30:26

and all of this and and she loved

00:30:28

examining people. So at night, you know,

00:30:31

she would famously and, you know, she

00:30:33

liked scotch and so she would do a day

00:30:36

up the hill. She was absolutely I went

00:30:38

up the hill with her a few times and she

00:30:40

would just race through the jungle and

00:30:42

follow her chimpanzees and you were just

00:30:44

like, where where's she gone? She could

00:30:46

move like incredibly and then she'd just

00:30:48

sit and wait. So I went up and saw all

00:30:49

the chimpanzees a lot. The end of the

00:30:51

day, you know, she'd sit down and and

00:30:53

talk to me about what she'd observed and

00:30:56

what she was thinking of doing and and

00:30:59

um asking me about my life and drinking

00:31:01

scotch and you look over Lake Tangana to

00:31:04

Zire in the Congo and yeah, it was it

00:31:06

was spectacular. Amazing. Amazing.

00:31:08

>> Uh I actually had that on my card here.

00:31:10

I was going to ask you if you smoke if

00:31:11

you if you drunk scotch with her. I I I

00:31:13

this caught me by surprise, but I don't

00:31:15

know if you saw this, but there was this

00:31:16

fabulous interview on Netflix which was

00:31:18

like um it was recorded I think in the

00:31:20

last year of her life. Then they vaulted

00:31:21

it until she died.

00:31:23

>> So anything Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she

00:31:25

was like she was sipping scotch or

00:31:27

whiskey through that uh interview. Loves

00:31:29

it.

00:31:30

>> Yeah. She Yeah. I think in that

00:31:32

interview she said, "Oh, my voice, you

00:31:33

know, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:35

She just really likes a little tipple

00:31:37

just to get her thinking. Like a lot of

00:31:39

her writing she Yeah. She wouldn't drink

00:31:41

a lot. She she's very measured, but she

00:31:44

would just light a fire on the beach,

00:31:46

have a short shot or two, and then start

00:31:49

telling stories. And her stories, you

00:31:51

know, I still draw upon her stories

00:31:53

today. Um, and you know,

00:31:56

>> like what

00:31:57

>> uh uh there's the ghosts, that was her

00:32:00

big story. Uh there's two stories there.

00:32:03

One one is that she said at night you

00:32:04

might hear chains like dragging and I

00:32:07

was like, "Yeah." And she said, "We've

00:32:08

all heard chains dragging." And that is

00:32:10

absolutely the caravan, the path that

00:32:12

the slave trade took right through GMI.

00:32:15

That was that was the path back to um

00:32:18

the ocean and that's where the slave

00:32:20

trade went. And she said, "You're

00:32:21

hearing the ghosts of the souls of the

00:32:23

people who died around this region." So

00:32:25

that freaked me out cuz then you go to a

00:32:27

you know, you didn't have electricity at

00:32:29

GMA. You go back to your room and this

00:32:31

there was that. And also um you know I

00:32:33

did work up an idea where Jane told a

00:32:36

story where um she said uh one night uh

00:32:40

we woke up and it was light uh in the

00:32:42

middle of the night. The whole region

00:32:44

was was light. It it just night became

00:32:47

day and she said we've never understood

00:32:50

what happened what it was. And I asked

00:32:52

some other people then and everyone

00:32:54

talks about it as a phenomena. there was

00:32:56

just this sort of glitch and like no one

00:32:58

can explain how it was completely

00:33:00

daylight and so that's always fascinated

00:33:03

me and I I have actually used that as a

00:33:05

concept

00:33:06

>> uh in a drama but you know pluribus has

00:33:09

kind of used a bit of that now we wrote

00:33:11

something called the sighting so I did

00:33:12

write something based on that

00:33:14

>> um she told you not to follow your

00:33:16

passion but to follow what you're good

00:33:18

at

00:33:19

>> um did you listen

00:33:21

>> yeah yeah I think she kind of also

00:33:24

taught me uh not to be not to have an

00:33:27

employer. Like that's really why I left

00:33:30

um TVNZ to set up my own company. She

00:33:32

just said, you know, like happiness is,

00:33:34

you know, freedom is is one of the great

00:33:36

things in terms of being happy. Um and

00:33:40

so I just uh I I did listen to her a lot

00:33:43

and so um yeah, her advice in terms in

00:33:46

terms of that was was really key in a

00:33:48

lot of decisions I made. M is the is the

00:33:52

dream for most people listening to this

00:33:53

or watching this to try and find an

00:33:55

access somewhere. So your passion is

00:33:57

what you're good at.

00:33:59

>> Well, the thing is if you're good at

00:34:01

something and it doesn't actually put,

00:34:02

you know, food on the table, then you're

00:34:04

pretty stupid to follow that passion.

00:34:06

You know, like your passion might be

00:34:08

that you want to be um something where

00:34:11

there's there's not a chance for you to

00:34:12

flourish. And sometimes if you're good

00:34:14

at something, it's pretty wise to go,

00:34:16

okay, I'm good at that and then I can

00:34:18

earn enough money to pursue my passion.

00:34:21

And so, and I'll have a comfortable

00:34:23

life. And uh so sometimes uh that advice

00:34:27

is not necessarily correct. And so I I

00:34:29

subscribed to do what you're good at.

00:34:32

And yeah, despite what I got told at

00:34:34

school, I I was okay at writing.

00:34:36

>> See, I still say I was okay. Um, and so

00:34:40

I thought, you know, that was what I was

00:34:42

good at. And so it wasn't necessarily a

00:34:44

passion.

00:34:46

>> So it was writing that I was good at

00:34:47

that I was able to use. Like um, you

00:34:49

know, we had writing in our family. Like

00:34:51

my grandmother was the first woman to

00:34:53

get uh, an English degree at Otago

00:34:56

University. First woman to go to Otaga

00:34:58

University and get a degree. So writing

00:35:00

was in me. I followed what I was good

00:35:02

at. And then off that I was able to

00:35:05

pursue my passions. Like I was in a

00:35:06

band. That was a passion. But it wasn't

00:35:08

going to make me a million dollars.

00:35:10

>> Made you 55 bucks, I believe.

00:35:11

>> 55. Yeah.

00:35:12

>> Um, someone else that you went on to

00:35:14

work with when you came back to New

00:35:16

Zealand that I suppose had a similar

00:35:17

piece of advice to Jane Goodall about

00:35:19

um, you know, being your own boss. Um,

00:35:21

Sir Paul Holmes,

00:35:22

>> didn't he say to you something like, um,

00:35:24

you don't want the gun pointed at you,

00:35:25

you want to be the one holding the gun.

00:35:27

>> Yeah,

00:35:27

>> he did. Yeah, that was a piece of advice

00:35:30

he gave me when when I was a young

00:35:32

reporter at TVN Zed. and Paul and I um I

00:35:35

came back and I was a little bit you

00:35:37

know liberal left unionized at the time

00:35:39

and my first meeting with Paul was um

00:35:42

wasn't so good because I was

00:35:43

representing the journalist. I became

00:35:45

the journalist spokesman in the newsroom

00:35:47

and something happened and it sort of

00:35:49

opposed Paul and Paul kind of like um

00:35:53

went upstairs and came down and found me

00:35:55

in the newsroom didn't even know who I

00:35:56

was and said you're finished you're

00:35:58

finished down here and up there and you

00:36:00

know he was you know brutal threat and I

00:36:03

just laughed at him and I said you know

00:36:05

that's really amazing threat Paul and he

00:36:07

went yeah and I said but there's one

00:36:09

problem he said what's he said I don't

00:36:11

care I don't care because I don't even

00:36:13

want to be here So, I just don't care.

00:36:15

And he sort of looked at me and he kind

00:36:16

of started laughing and then he went

00:36:18

away and kind of went, "Who is that

00:36:20

little shit?" Like, you know, pretty

00:36:22

much, you know, that's when he got an

00:36:24

interest. And then, you know, I went on,

00:36:26

I worked as one of the producers on

00:36:27

Homes and a reporter, but I mean,

00:36:29

there's greatness in homes. I wasn't one

00:36:31

of those great Mike Valentine's and

00:36:33

Cameron Bennett and all those wonderful

00:36:35

reporters who were on there but I got to

00:36:37

live in their world and and um you know

00:36:40

I got to produce the show for a while

00:36:42

and uh it was it was incredible. Yeah.

00:36:45

And Paul did give a lot of advice and

00:36:47

the one about you know he definitely

00:36:49

said at one point he said look you're

00:36:50

kind of he could see you are kind of an

00:36:52

entrepreneur you you don't really want

00:36:54

all these bosses like doing the home

00:36:57

show like if you put a show out you

00:36:59

would you had like you know the head of

00:37:01

news and current affairs you had the CEO

00:37:03

of TVNZ you had the minister of

00:37:05

broadcasting you had the prime minister

00:37:07

they would all ring you pretty much

00:37:08

after the show and you're sitting there

00:37:10

really young they r say that was good

00:37:12

that was bad that was good that was bad

00:37:13

you had a lot of masters is in those

00:37:15

days. Of course, I don't think Chris

00:37:17

Luxon rings up Jeremy Wells now, but uh

00:37:20

in those days it was a much more

00:37:22

political show. You know, we'd have

00:37:24

Bulger on and you know, I I loved that

00:37:26

form of journalism. You know, we'd be

00:37:27

going, "Why'd you do that today?" You

00:37:29

know, how does that affect the people?

00:37:30

And Paul was always for the people, you

00:37:33

know, and even in and giving me some

00:37:34

career advice. He was he was for the

00:37:36

people. Yeah.

00:37:37

>> Oh, look, for anyone um under a certain

00:37:40

age, it's probably hard to imagine or

00:37:41

fathom just how how big this show was.

00:37:44

like homes 7:00 p.m. on TV1. Uh yeah,

00:37:47

how many how many viewers? Like 800,000

00:37:49

a night, a million a night. It's like it

00:37:51

was massive. And if anything happened in

00:37:52

the news, you were sort of summoned onto

00:37:54

the home show. Like I've had um Justin

00:37:56

Marshall on the podcast and he had an

00:37:58

incident where John Hart took him off

00:38:00

the field and he got caught on Mike

00:38:01

swearing saying this is [ __ ]

00:38:02

[ __ ] And it was became such a media

00:38:04

thing he was sort of summoned to homes

00:38:06

the next day to to make a public

00:38:08

apology.

00:38:08

>> Yeah, it was the court. Yeah, it was.

00:38:10

Paul was the was the judge, you know,

00:38:13

and he gave people, you know, Jonah had,

00:38:15

you know, a huge moment on the show

00:38:17

where um, you know, over one of his

00:38:19

marriages and his personal relationship

00:38:21

situation, cried on the show, hugely

00:38:24

emotional. That rated, you know,

00:38:25

obviously off the charts, but Paul had

00:38:27

an ability to to have empathy with

00:38:30

people. You know, that's the one thing,

00:38:32

you know, he definitely had a soul and

00:38:34

so greatly missed.

00:38:36

>> When were you there? What years were you

00:38:37

on the home show? I can't remember, but

00:38:39

it' be uh

00:38:41

I I've I'm such a dreamer. I have

00:38:44

problems. But it' be like late 80s. Oh,

00:38:46

no. No. See, I can't even remember if it

00:38:48

was 90s. I I honestly can't recall my

00:38:52

timeline, but um yeah, it was

00:38:56

Yeah. No, it was been 90 95 97. Yeah. 90

00:39:01

around 97 98.

00:39:03

>> What was um that ballering you got

00:39:04

before you worked for him down? Was that

00:39:06

the best bowler king from Paul Holmes or

00:39:07

was there better ballikings?

00:39:09

>> Uh, no. Subsequently, Paul Paul once

00:39:12

you're in the team, you're in the team,

00:39:14

you know, and there's a lot of good

00:39:15

people like that in New Zealand

00:39:16

journalism once you're on the team. So

00:39:17

once you're on the inside and he trusts

00:39:19

you, cuz trust is a big issue with Paul.

00:39:21

Like he was a little bit paranoid.

00:39:23

>> Um, he shared all sorts of inappropriate

00:39:26

things with you. Like he was an open

00:39:27

book from there on in. And he he was

00:39:29

very open about his life, you know. Um,

00:39:31

he shared a lot and had had his own

00:39:34

struggles with things. um uh deserved a

00:39:37

much longer life. So, uh yeah, in terms

00:39:41

of in terms of bollockings, uh no, from

00:39:44

there he he was always pretty good. It's

00:39:45

like if if something went wrong, the

00:39:47

team, you know, it was it was pretty

00:39:49

much a team thing. What you know, what

00:39:50

did we do wrong? But man, he worked

00:39:52

like, you know, and you know,

00:39:53

>> he was up, you know, radio and then he'd

00:39:56

come into the morning meetings. He was

00:39:58

better briefed than everyone. He knew

00:39:59

what was going on in New Zealand, in the

00:40:01

world at, you know, 9:30 in the morning

00:40:03

for the first meeting. Paul knew the

00:40:05

agenda before anyone because everyone

00:40:06

else is just waking up and got their

00:40:08

first coffee and he's like been on air

00:40:10

for hours and so he's like I need to get

00:40:12

to Tapo. I need to talk to the grieving

00:40:14

wife. Get me a helicopter. I'll be there

00:40:15

at 11:00. I'll be back at 1:00. I'll

00:40:17

pre-record this. I'll do that. Man, what

00:40:19

a day and then and then knock it out

00:40:21

live and do it again the next day.

00:40:25

Unbelievable.

00:40:25

>> Oh, he he's he's phenomenal. And his his

00:40:28

flaws made almost made him um yeah, the

00:40:30

the broadcaster that he was. I I had um

00:40:32

Sir John King on the podcast a couple of

00:40:34

years ago. He told a story about uh when

00:40:36

he was um I think in the early days of

00:40:38

his prime ministership going out for

00:40:39

dinner at Parnell somewhere and Paul was

00:40:41

there and Paul said, "Come and join us

00:40:43

for a wine." So she had a bottle of wine

00:40:45

and then he he was like, "We'll get

00:40:46

another one." And John was like, "No,

00:40:47

Paul, you I'm I'm being interviewed by

00:40:49

you on Q&A tomorrow morning." Um so John

00:40:52

went home and then the next day went

00:40:53

there and Paul was like, "Oh, I'm hung

00:40:55

over." And then as soon as the the

00:40:56

cameras were on and the mics were on,

00:40:58

bang,

00:40:58

>> bang, on fire.

00:40:59

>> Yeah. sharp, super sharp and just funny.

00:41:03

I mean, Paul was just funny, you know.

00:41:06

He's he was so clever, like musically

00:41:08

talented, funny, um, literate, uh,

00:41:11

unbelievable understanding the arts, you

00:41:13

know, like John Clark is where he

00:41:15

started in comedy, you know, and with

00:41:17

his famous, um, I think it was a it was

00:41:20

a flea race or something that he did

00:41:22

down at the shadow, which was the

00:41:23

turning point in his life. was John

00:41:24

Clark really created the Paul Holmes

00:41:27

character and that I don't think that

00:41:28

story's ever been told but but Paul

00:41:30

Holmes

00:41:31

>> How do you mean John Clark as in Fred

00:41:32

Dag?

00:41:33

>> Yeah.

00:41:34

>> Yeah. He created Paul Holmes basically

00:41:36

and it is a story that hasn't been told

00:41:38

but John Clark Fred Dag. They did a show

00:41:40

and Paul was doing a race. I think it

00:41:42

was like it was a flea race and he was

00:41:45

doing a comedy sketch and basically he

00:41:48

did it as um he he did Paul Holmes

00:41:52

comedy just hi I'm Paul Holmes and all

00:41:54

this then he did this good good

00:41:56

afternoon ladies and gentlemen and

00:41:57

welcome to the race it's the race of the

00:42:00

fleas and they're going to race and and

00:42:01

and they did it and all the mata farmers

00:42:04

they all laughed like [ __ ] and when they

00:42:06

left John Clark in the van turned to

00:42:08

Paul and he said that is the Paul Holmes

00:42:11

you talk like that and Paul went good

00:42:14

afternoon and I'm Paul Holmes and

00:42:16

welcome to me and and that's when he was

00:42:18

discovered and so Paul used that form of

00:42:21

addiction from that moment where John

00:42:22

Clark said that's how you perform

00:42:24

everyone loves that.

00:42:26

>> Wow.

00:42:27

>> Yeah.

00:42:28

>> Well, I've heard him referred to as um

00:42:30

like an Uncle Arthur sort of character

00:42:32

which was um a character on some

00:42:33

Australian comedy show. Interesting.

00:42:35

Came from John Clark.

00:42:37

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's courtesy of Tom

00:42:39

Scott, that story.

00:42:42

>> So, is it after the home show that the

00:42:43

entrepreneurial chapter of your story

00:42:46

began?

00:42:47

>> Yeah, I kind of I'd read a book called

00:42:49

Primary Colors, which was it was a ghost

00:42:51

book about Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton

00:42:53

had a thing called uh FaceTime before,

00:42:56

forget the word FaceTime. Unfortunate

00:42:58

phrase now, but he if he ever had a

00:43:01

problem, he would wouldn't fax people or

00:43:04

ring them. he would demand facetime with

00:43:06

them, get them in to use his charisma to

00:43:08

convince them as to what he wanted. And

00:43:10

and this book was all about you got to,

00:43:12

you know, do facetime to get to the big

00:43:14

time. So I was at TVZ producing away and

00:43:16

I thought I'll meet all of the bosses at

00:43:18

TV and Z. I'll go and meet them because

00:43:20

we weren't allowed to go up to the fifth

00:43:21

floor. So I made appointments to meet

00:43:23

all the bosses and went and met one and

00:43:25

was Mike Latton and I said look I want

00:43:27

to go out and be an entrepreneur in this

00:43:29

industry and I was doing FaceTime. He

00:43:32

was like initially he's like what are

00:43:34

you doing here? you're you're a producer

00:43:35

down on that floor. We don't talk to

00:43:36

people down there. And in the end, he

00:43:38

said, "Oh, look, I've got uh I own the

00:43:40

rights to the golf show." Um, and you're

00:43:43

into you're into golf and sport. I I'll

00:43:45

give you them for a dollar. And so I

00:43:47

went, "Okay." And I walked out of the

00:43:49

meeting. I rang Sky that virtually rang

00:43:51

them straight away and said, "Hi, I own

00:43:53

the rights to the golf show in New

00:43:54

Zealand. It's really big in Australia."

00:43:56

And they went, "Great. Come and talk to

00:43:57

us." And like within a few weeks, I had

00:44:00

the Golf Show and Philip Leechman and

00:44:01

Air New Zealand and Golf Harbor all on

00:44:03

board. and I just left. And that suited

00:44:06

me as a producer like you know it's

00:44:08

people wonder why you do producing

00:44:10

because there's a horrible saying but

00:44:12

you spend your life pissing on bush

00:44:13

fires which is what you do. It's you

00:44:15

know you're constantly solving problems

00:44:17

but you know I love it because um it's

00:44:20

kind of just part of that creative

00:44:22

process of getting things made and yeah

00:44:25

>> why why did he sell you the rights to

00:44:27

the golf show for a dollar? That that

00:44:28

usually when when a dollar transaction

00:44:30

usually happens that usually means

00:44:31

you're buying a whole lot of debt as

00:44:32

well. He he just wanted to help me

00:44:34

because I had the audacity to go up

00:44:35

there. Incredible. And he wasn't going

00:44:37

to use it at TV and Zed. So, he just

00:44:40

went, "You can have it." And uh he he

00:44:43

just because I'd put myself forward and

00:44:46

taken this advice, which is get in front

00:44:48

of people, talk to people, you know,

00:44:50

FaceTime, which is really important in

00:44:52

this day and age when people are now

00:44:54

sitting behind, you know, monitors and

00:44:56

terminals and and not communicating

00:44:58

directly, but direct engagement, you

00:45:00

know, is is so important. That's why,

00:45:02

you know, we hear people today like

00:45:04

Scott Galloway, Professor Scott

00:45:05

Galloway, saying that young people

00:45:07

should be um drinking more um and going

00:45:11

out and meeting people and yeah, making

00:45:13

a few mistakes because they're at least

00:45:15

engaging with people and instead they're

00:45:18

sitting in bedrooms and the damage that

00:45:20

it's doing to their mental health is way

00:45:22

worse than a slightly bad hangover from

00:45:24

going out and meeting real people and

00:45:26

engaging in life itself.

00:45:29

>> Yeah. Yeah. that um that FaceTime theory

00:45:31

that you talk about, it's probably never

00:45:32

been more applicable than what it is

00:45:34

now. I don't think that's really

00:45:35

powerful.

00:45:35

>> Eh, yeah. A lot of people write about it

00:45:37

now and like it's all memes like you

00:45:39

know 100 nos, you know, going out and

00:45:41

seeking 100 rejections. You know there's

00:45:43

a lot of stuff you know that's the good

00:45:45

side of social media that encourages

00:45:46

people to do some positive stuff which

00:45:49

is authentic. Um you know uh the you

00:45:52

know let them let them say what they

00:45:54

want. Mel Robbins and all of her stuff,

00:45:56

the 5-second rule, you know, but it's

00:45:58

all it's all old old stuff. Like to me,

00:46:00

in some ways, I've applied quite a few

00:46:02

of those rules, but that FaceTime one,

00:46:04

>> it you're always going to be much closer

00:46:06

to getting what you want if you meet the

00:46:08

person and and they can physically

00:46:10

engage with you.

00:46:12

>> Yeah.

00:46:12

>> Yeah. It it is all regurgitated. Like

00:46:14

some of the some of the best books I've

00:46:15

ever read are like the really old ones

00:46:16

like Napoleon Hill or Dale Cariegi

00:46:18

>> like um and it's all just the same stuff

00:46:21

regurgitated, but it's all powerful.

00:46:23

>> Yeah. The E-Myth is, you know, that's

00:46:25

what started me. The E-Myth is is um,

00:46:28

you know, you either work in your

00:46:30

business or on your business. And that's

00:46:31

the E-Myth.

00:46:32

>> And, you know, I've helped a lot of

00:46:34

people, but that's a very old um, uh,

00:46:38

form of advice, but um,

00:46:40

>> you see it regurgitated today in social

00:46:42

media, but it's the fundamental

00:46:44

principles there.

00:46:46

So that golf show that you're talking

00:46:47

about with um the late great Philip

00:46:49

Leechman um so you guys built that up

00:46:51

and then sold it to a company called

00:46:52

UpLink.

00:46:54

>> So Upink was our company.

00:46:55

>> Upink was the company.

00:46:56

>> Yeah. And then we we built it up. Yeah.

00:46:58

And um you know that was again that was

00:47:02

probably one of the best examples of um

00:47:05

of the way the way I think uh and the

00:47:08

way I think everyone should think was

00:47:10

and it was one key thing that we did and

00:47:12

that was we needed someone to do the

00:47:13

golf tips and we're sitting around the

00:47:15

table. Our office was the Gypsy T-Rooms

00:47:18

in Greylin. We were there for 7 years

00:47:20

before Gypsy T-room and Phil rightfully

00:47:22

suggested Phil Tartarangi and you know

00:47:24

Grant Mohead and Ela and all these

00:47:26

people and I said no we want some do

00:47:28

golf tips it's massive you know like

00:47:31

let's start with you know Tiger Woods

00:47:33

and work down from there and so we had a

00:47:35

list of and Phil just sat there like

00:47:37

you're crazy you're crazy so I got on

00:47:39

the phone I rang around and somehow I

00:47:41

found Gary Player and he was launching

00:47:44

golf courses in Malaysia and so I got

00:47:47

his son in South Africa and he Dad's up

00:47:49

in Malaysia launching golf courses. If

00:47:52

you fly up, he'll give you like a day or

00:47:54

two days or whatever to do golf tips as

00:47:56

long as you show the golf courses he's

00:47:58

designing. So, I flew up there, met Gary

00:48:01

Player, who was absolutely incredible.

00:48:03

And Gary is just an absolute natural

00:48:06

with the TV. He just said, "Whatever you

00:48:08

want, whatever you want, I'll do." So, I

00:48:10

just filmed him non-stop for two days.

00:48:12

Golf tips, golf tips, golf tips. So, we

00:48:15

had Gary Player doing our golf tips.

00:48:16

Then what happened was this Australian

00:48:18

company, you know, we went to um ESPN

00:48:21

and said, "Do you want our golf show?"

00:48:22

And they said, "What a New Zealand golf

00:48:24

show. Who hosts it?" And I went, "Gary

00:48:26

player." And they went, "Ah, I didn't

00:48:28

say Phil Le, sorry, Phil." But um Gary

00:48:32

Player, they bought the golf show and as

00:48:34

a result of that, and a big

00:48:36

international company came in and said

00:48:38

to us, "Oh, you make a golf show. What's

00:48:39

it on?" "Oh, it's on ESPN. Uh are you

00:48:42

interested in it?" And they said, "No,

00:48:43

we won't buy the show. We'll buy your

00:48:45

company." because we had that show on

00:48:47

ESPN. So, it was thinking big got us all

00:48:50

the way through to a massive buyout of

00:48:52

our company by a British company.

00:48:54

>> So, it seemed like you hustled hard like

00:48:56

and you were thinking big, you know, in

00:48:58

order to get like a Gary Player on. But,

00:48:59

um, was it like creative? You weren't

00:49:02

lying, but creative with your phrasing.

00:49:04

>> Oh, you mean with Gary Player?

00:49:06

>> Oh, no. With saying it's on ESPN and

00:49:08

saying Gary Player.

00:49:09

>> Well, it was on ESPN. Yeah. It genuinely

00:49:11

was on ESPN and Gary. No, we pushed Gary

00:49:14

to the front of our international

00:49:16

version. So, it did feel like Gary was

00:49:18

So, it was Phil and Gary. So, it was

00:49:21

there. It was It was for real. Yeah. And

00:49:24

because I shot so much material in two

00:49:26

days with him cuz he just talked

00:49:28

non-stop for two days. So, about

00:49:30

everything. So,

00:49:32

>> Amazing. So, by 31 um you'd made enough

00:49:35

money to be set up for life.

00:49:37

>> Yeah. Well, well, yeah. Yeah, I had

00:49:40

enough to be mortgage free and own own a

00:49:42

home and and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:45

And bought a place in Queenstown and

00:49:48

>> Yeah.

00:49:48

>> Yeah. That ended up being a smart

00:49:49

investment. You still got it to this

00:49:50

day.

00:49:51

>> Yeah.

00:49:51

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:52

>> Did Did you um Yeah. buy a cool car or

00:49:54

do anything foolish at the time?

00:49:56

>> You're 31.

00:49:57

>> Yeah, I know. No, I was I was pretty

00:50:00

pretty cautious really. Like that's the

00:50:02

Southland coming out and you the

00:50:04

Scottish heritage is like you don't want

00:50:07

to be showy and I've never been showy.

00:50:09

Um the only showy thing we've ever done

00:50:11

probably le and I is I bought her

00:50:14

Mustang for her 60th birthday and

00:50:17

otherwise um yeah but we have got a

00:50:20

beautiful um sort of farm down in

00:50:22

Queenstown and it's amazing. Yeah. So

00:50:25

>> yeah, I I found a quote from you. Um, I

00:50:28

just need enough for a penino and a

00:50:29

steak at the end of the day. Don't need

00:50:31

anything more than that.

00:50:32

>> Yeah, I think yeah, finding your

00:50:34

happiness is that I do see people with a

00:50:36

lot of clutter. Um, in particular in

00:50:38

Queenstown, a lot of possessions. um

00:50:41

it's just a lot of encumbrance and it's

00:50:44

it's so much to manage and uh it makes

00:50:47

life really complicated and you know I

00:50:49

do think that um you find happiness in

00:50:52

the simple things and decluttering and

00:50:54

getting rid of all that it doesn't

00:50:56

always lead to a happy existence so um

00:51:00

yeah

00:51:01

>> material things they only bring you the

00:51:03

briefest amount of happiness e

00:51:05

>> they do it's a car the first couple of

00:51:07

drives in it a watch first couple of

00:51:09

times you wear it then it just becomes

00:51:11

>> yeah background noise

00:51:12

>> but financial freedom is a great feeling

00:51:14

and I was lucky to have Sir David Lavine

00:51:17

work with me and um you know David often

00:51:20

said that you know he remembers the f

00:51:22

the day where he became mortgage free

00:51:24

and how he felt

00:51:25

>> and so yeah pretty pretty great great

00:51:28

feeling to have that and anyone can

00:51:30

aspire to it. M so selling that company

00:51:32

uplink at 31 and becoming um yeah

00:51:35

mortgage free and yeah financially

00:51:37

secure did did that change your

00:51:39

relationship with risk?

00:51:41

No, I just wanted to keep creating and

00:51:43

growing the company and I always just

00:51:45

felt a responsibility like I had uh you

00:51:48

know I basically set up Great Southern

00:51:50

and Great Southern was just a new idea

00:51:53

and I got on with Sir David Lavine as my

00:51:55

partner and I just wanted to tell New

00:51:57

Zealand stories like I just felt like

00:52:00

you know I wanted to get out of sport

00:52:01

and get into drama and comedy and things

00:52:04

that I was really into and I had to

00:52:05

learn about it and so I it was just a

00:52:08

chance for me to be able to put money

00:52:10

into a

00:52:11

and grow a new company which is Great

00:52:13

Southern and just sort of grow that up

00:52:15

you know and it's gone through multiple

00:52:17

iterations and you know it's been cool

00:52:20

it's been corporate it's been family

00:52:23

it's been big it's been small it's you

00:52:25

know it's gone through so many

00:52:26

iterations through through all the

00:52:29

phases of the media so yeah

00:52:31

>> yes so David Lavine who who you've

00:52:33

mentioned um your wealthy businessman

00:52:36

anyone over a certain age will remember

00:52:38

the the chain of stores Lavine and Yeah.

00:52:41

>> What would you compare them to now?

00:52:42

What's um what's the

00:52:43

>> Brisco or Oh, no. He died.

00:52:46

>> Paint and decorating. It was massive.

00:52:47

There was like 50 branches around the

00:52:49

country. It was a massive massive chain.

00:52:50

>> So, how did you connect through your

00:52:52

involvement as a volunteer with

00:52:54

Outwardbound? Is that how you

00:52:55

>> Yeah. He um uh so we had the golf show

00:52:59

and um Leanne's auntie introduced me to

00:53:02

Sir David uh Elaine Lunan. She

00:53:05

introduced me and basically David wanted

00:53:07

to raise money for Outbound. So, we met

00:53:09

and I said, "Why don't we do a charity

00:53:10

golf tournament at Golf Harour and we'll

00:53:13

gift you one episode of the golf show

00:53:15

and the charity can sell all the

00:53:17

advertising and all the sponsorship

00:53:19

around it and we'll put it on air, you

00:53:21

know, on, you know, all around the world

00:53:23

basically." And so, they were able to

00:53:25

sell that one show for about 100 grand

00:53:28

and hold this tournament. And so, it

00:53:30

raised and so David saw that and he kind

00:53:33

of was listening to all these people on

00:53:34

the board and he go, "Oh, be quiet. What

00:53:36

are you saying, Phil?" like he listened

00:53:37

to me because we'd got the money and and

00:53:40

he just was a real advocate of me

00:53:42

because he David uh was a young person

00:53:45

in an old man's body in a way. He just

00:53:47

didn't want to go cuz he loved it so

00:53:49

much being an entrepreneur and he was so

00:53:51

clever and so good good with it. So he

00:53:54

sort of said you know uh what you're

00:53:56

going to do next. So, I owned Uplink at

00:53:58

the time, you know, I'll be in there.

00:53:59

And so, when um when Uplink finished and

00:54:03

been sold, I I set up Great Southern and

00:54:05

David became a partner.

00:54:07

>> Yeah.

00:54:07

>> Yeah. The the the story I heard, and I

00:54:09

don't know if this is um um you truth or

00:54:11

not, he like gave you a million bucks

00:54:13

and said, "Here, set up a company and

00:54:15

give me half of it."

00:54:16

>> Yeah.

00:54:17

>> Is is that a lot of pressure?

00:54:19

>> Um

00:54:19

>> like taking taking that sum of money off

00:54:21

someone else?

00:54:22

>> Really think about it cuz I put some of

00:54:23

my own money in as well. So we had to

00:54:25

set up editing and in those days all the

00:54:27

hard costs, hardwire costs were greater,

00:54:30

edit suites, you know, Avid's, you know,

00:54:32

you can edit a show now on a laptop, but

00:54:34

in in our day it was hundreds of

00:54:36

thousands. So it did it was capital

00:54:38

investment. Um, but is it pressure? Uh,

00:54:42

>> yeah. Yeah. But he was such a kind

00:54:44

person. He never really threw a wobbly

00:54:47

or anything, you know, because he just

00:54:48

said he used to get frustrated because

00:54:50

I'd say we got this show and this show

00:54:52

and this show and I go in and only one

00:54:54

of them would be happening and he'd go

00:54:56

it's all just dreams and would get

00:54:58

frustrated cuz he was used to produce

00:55:01

paint, sell paint, you know, boom boom

00:55:03

it was a transaction whereas ours is all

00:55:05

ethereal and you know someone at a

00:55:08

network might just suddenly say I don't

00:55:09

want your show I don't like it for

00:55:11

whatever reason you know they might not

00:55:13

like you they might not like the idea.

00:55:14

So David struggled in a way to

00:55:17

understand how how how weird our

00:55:19

industry was, but but it was a good

00:55:22

relationship

00:55:22

>> and and you built that company up into

00:55:24

to being something amazing which you're

00:55:26

still at now. Uh 2017 you sold 70% of

00:55:29

the company to Yeah. Australian outfit.

00:55:32

>> Yeah. Like all our competitors in New

00:55:34

Zealand, our big competitors like SP,

00:55:36

South Pacific Pictures, Screen Time,

00:55:38

Baner, um Greenstone is owned by Cordell

00:55:41

Jigsaw. So the big competitors are all

00:55:43

foreignowned. And so the thing is now we

00:55:45

have to put a lot of money in to show.

00:55:47

So if I'm making a drama like say, you

00:55:49

know, I'm not even sure, but Blue Murder

00:55:51

Motel is on air at the moment. Well, I

00:55:53

have to guarantee about $4 million of

00:55:55

that money uh to make the show. Um and

00:55:58

then we make it then we get it back at

00:55:59

the end as a rebate. But you know, it's

00:56:02

at any given time I got, you know, 4 8

00:56:04

10 12 million out. And the thing is it

00:56:08

does come back, but it's a lot of risk.

00:56:10

you know, it's a risky business. It's

00:56:12

like the indie film industry. What if it

00:56:13

doesn't come back? Then you've got a

00:56:15

problem. And so our competitors like SP

00:56:18

are foreignowned. They're owned by, you

00:56:19

know, billion dollar company and and

00:56:21

good on them. There's no issue with

00:56:22

that. But they've got the financial

00:56:24

security behind them. We're just a

00:56:26

little Kiwi company. So for us, having a

00:56:28

foreign channel like a channel 7 coming

00:56:31

and buy us is a great opportunity. So we

00:56:33

got seven to invest in us and that gave

00:56:35

us the ability to borrow uh to to grow

00:56:39

because I could only underwrite two

00:56:42

three dramas a year personally out of my

00:56:44

own money. Otherwise uh we needed

00:56:48

someone to back us. And so we did the

00:56:50

deal. Seven bought us. Three years

00:56:52

later, seven studios, billion dollar

00:56:54

studio making, you know, restaurant

00:56:56

shows, making Home and Away, all these

00:56:58

incredible shows. They just shut it

00:57:00

overnight. They just closed seven

00:57:01

studios and so they owned 17 production

00:57:04

companies and in the end I got Great

00:57:05

Southern back. Today I sit here looking

00:57:08

all relaxed. Um because you know three

00:57:10

years ago I bought it back for you know

00:57:13

you know I did a deal with seven and and

00:57:16

they they pretty much gave the companies

00:57:18

back to the to the all the companies

00:57:20

owned around the world. they kept New

00:57:22

Zealand because we were financially

00:57:24

successful and very useful being

00:57:26

connected to Australia and then in the

00:57:29

end they agreed that it was better that

00:57:31

um that I took it back because uh they

00:57:34

just couldn't leverage owning a New

00:57:36

Zealand company when they only had one

00:57:37

and they had no one to run it basically.

00:57:39

They didn't have a studio. Did did you

00:57:41

buy it back for a similar price to what

00:57:42

you sold it for or

00:57:43

>> I I think there's something in the

00:57:45

contract that says I can't disclose

00:57:46

that. Wow. Some people have said it was

00:57:48

an Allen Bond moment. Uh which is but it

00:57:52

was

00:57:52

>> you sold high and bought low.

00:57:54

>> Yeah. I think it'd be fair to say it

00:57:55

was, you know, I they very kindly

00:57:58

invited me to pay less than what they

00:57:59

paid for it. Um which was which was very

00:58:02

kind. They they were good when they

00:58:03

closed. They they actually gave

00:58:05

companies back to a lot of the Brits.

00:58:07

So, you know, they they were they were

00:58:09

pretty good about it,

00:58:10

>> mate. That's amazing. What a story. Um

00:58:12

there's a a quote which um has stuck

00:58:14

with me my entire life from um someone

00:58:15

that you name dropped earlier, Gary

00:58:17

Player. Um the harder I practice, the

00:58:19

luckier I get.

00:58:20

>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's that thing, you

00:58:23

know, to young people today, you know,

00:58:24

the fear of rejection is such a a weird

00:58:27

thing. Like you've just got to, you

00:58:29

know, the more nos, you're closer to a

00:58:31

yes. And like even New Zealand on air

00:58:33

and network say when they ring me up and

00:58:35

say look you know we don't want that

00:58:36

show. I think I've got a reputation for

00:58:39

being the person that cares the least. I

00:58:41

just kind of go oh yeah anyway I've got

00:58:43

this. I just switch. I just go decision

00:58:45

made. Move on. I don't even hold the

00:58:48

rejection.

00:58:49

>> I just go sweet. What are you looking

00:58:51

for? What was wrong in that proposal? Uh

00:58:54

>> oh okay. We've got that. I just move on.

00:58:56

I don't dwell. I mean retribution you

00:58:58

know revenge. You know, you got to dig

00:59:00

two graves if you're seeking revenge and

00:59:02

you know, you got to remember that. So,

00:59:04

if you are vengeful, it's a wasted

00:59:06

energy. Take that energy, put it into

00:59:08

the next thing. So, the more rejection,

00:59:10

the better. You know what about if like

00:59:12

you're you're a smart guy and you've

00:59:14

been in TV for a long time. What about

00:59:15

if you know it's a great show?

00:59:18

>> Oh, yeah. You can really feel

00:59:20

disappointed. Uh but you can come back

00:59:22

you know if you really think this is a

00:59:25

this rocks um you can convince people or

00:59:28

you can put it in a drawer like you know

00:59:29

we had one lane bridge which I wrote

00:59:31

originally is called blueb blood

00:59:33

>> um and you know a bit like Barney with

00:59:36

whale rider you know he had that that's

00:59:39

John Barnett from SP he had whale rider

00:59:42

and bottom drawer that script for years

00:59:44

and he waited for the moment it had been

00:59:46

rejected and turned down then just when

00:59:48

someone says we need dong dong dong

00:59:51

Bang. It's It's live. And so One Lane

00:59:53

Bridge was an example of that. Like we

00:59:55

had the idea and the concept. It was a

00:59:57

drama we made down in Queenstown. And it

01:00:00

was just waiting for the moment. It had

01:00:01

had some init initial rejection. Then

01:00:04

boom, it was just live. So you know your

01:00:07

ideas, they can wait this time.

01:00:10

>> Yeah. That's a great show that you

01:00:11

referenced, One Lane Bridge with um Joel

01:00:12

Tobe. It's sold to like 20 countries

01:00:14

around the world.

01:00:15

>> Yeah, it's sold I think 42 actually.

01:00:18

>> Oh, 42.

01:00:19

>> Yeah, 42 countries. Yeah, but All Three

01:00:21

Media, which owns SP, uh we've had a

01:00:24

wonderful relationship with them. Uh

01:00:27

right from the start, they um the first

01:00:29

show I ever offered them was The Lion

01:00:31

Man. Uh we're making The Lion Man, which

01:00:33

was up north, and they bought it and

01:00:36

sold it around the world. And they sold

01:00:37

that to over a hundred countries. And so

01:00:39

I was this little like hero in New

01:00:42

Zealand who'd made this crazy show. It

01:00:44

just sold everywhere, The Lion Man. It

01:00:46

was phenomenal, you know, tragic end to

01:00:48

the story, but um it was good at the

01:00:50

time. So yeah. Yeah, we we use all three

01:00:53

and and One Lane Bridge um traveled

01:00:56

really well during co and was highest

01:00:58

rating show in New Zealand and a drama

01:01:00

in a decade or something. It was

01:01:02

massive.

01:01:03

>> All right, let's get into the sexy stuff

01:01:04

then. The the TV stuff. Oh, first of

01:01:06

all, you I remember the line man with um

01:01:08

what was his name? Craig Bush. Yeah. Was

01:01:10

that his? Yeah. And it was like a lion

01:01:11

park up in Fungaday. What what's the

01:01:13

tragic end of the story?

01:01:15

Oh, just everyone fell out and his

01:01:17

partner died and he went to court and,

01:01:20

you know, got prosecuted and stuff and

01:01:22

Craig, you know, Craig left New Zealand

01:01:25

and the park fell into disrepute. The

01:01:27

mother got into a battle with him and,

01:01:29

you know, that was all really

01:01:30

unfortunate because it was, you know,

01:01:33

fundamentally a fantastic idea and, you

01:01:35

know, with trusted partners, it could

01:01:37

have flourished, but instead it died.

01:01:40

>> It was a great show. You I think it was

01:01:41

like Sunday night 7:00 p.m. or something

01:01:43

like that.

01:01:43

>> Huge. Yeah, Paul Castley voiced it and

01:01:46

the opening song guy Peter Black wrote

01:01:48

it. Not the Peter Black, but um like I

01:01:51

wanted a song cuz uh but to say, you

01:01:54

know, it was from the depths of Southern

01:01:55

Africa, the big cats they have and he's

01:01:58

the lion man doing all he can. And I

01:02:00

took that off Gilligan's Island because

01:02:02

they have, you know, four men in a leaky

01:02:04

boat and they tell the story before the

01:02:07

show starts. So I saw that and applied

01:02:09

that to the lion man. So we told the

01:02:11

story of the line man in the opening

01:02:13

titles and uh so you kind of got his

01:02:15

vibe, you know, he's doing all he can to

01:02:18

make a sanctuary for big cats and all

01:02:20

that. So the show just was warm and

01:02:22

family and it just it just took off. Um

01:02:24

but you know, it was a little bit like

01:02:26

Crusty the Clown, you know, behind the

01:02:28

scenes, our lion man was was was a

01:02:31

different person, you know, and you

01:02:33

know, um you know, I have I have empathy

01:02:35

for him him and his family, but he's now

01:02:37

in Africa and doing well. So, you know,

01:02:39

good luck to him.

01:02:41

>> What are the best shows that you never

01:02:42

made?

01:02:44

>> What's what's your whale rider? What

01:02:45

have you got in the bottom drawer?

01:02:47

>> Uh, yeah. Well, um, yeah, I'd say the

01:02:52

drama that I've written, uh, that I see

01:02:54

being replicated all the time, which we

01:02:56

did have with anonymous content in the

01:02:59

US, is the new America. Uh so I wrote

01:03:01

that about 10 years ago which is

01:03:04

basically people fleeing America due to

01:03:06

unrest and setting up a sanctuary in the

01:03:08

South Island of New Zealand and living

01:03:11

behind um closed walls. And so the new

01:03:14

America was a sort of utopian place but

01:03:17

also a dystopian place. So it was after

01:03:19

an event and uh you know I had all the

01:03:22

research and all the stories because you

01:03:24

know we kind of knew a lot about you

01:03:26

know havenization way before other

01:03:29

people went and did things in Queenstown

01:03:30

cuz these were sort of our neighbors

01:03:32

doing it you know so our neighbors ended

01:03:34

up being you know people that own the

01:03:36

Empire State Building or Levi Strauss or

01:03:39

that guy's from the CIA and like we're

01:03:41

surrounded by that in Queenstown is real

01:03:43

you know and um a lot of people Peter

01:03:45

Teal you know they're building he's not

01:03:47

building a bunker But the bunkerization

01:03:49

of Queenstown, so the new America, uh, I

01:03:53

think I could rewrite it and make it

01:03:54

today. Everyone loved the title. They

01:03:56

just wanted to know exactly what it was.

01:03:57

And I I'm probably more mature as a

01:03:59

writer now. I could take it back to

01:04:01

them, but it would feel almost like too

01:04:03

obvious now.

01:04:04

>> I wish I had it today to put it on here

01:04:06

tomorrow.

01:04:07

>> Is that an insight into um where the

01:04:09

ideas and inspiration come from? Like

01:04:11

you just said then, you know, your

01:04:12

neighbors and Americans that you

01:04:14

>> Yeah. Or or where do the ideas come

01:04:16

from? I think it's a mix. Like people

01:04:19

say write what you know about, but I

01:04:20

think it's absolute nonsense. Like um

01:04:23

you can you can write about anything if

01:04:25

you can research it. And but I do get I

01:04:28

do get uh a lot of inspiration from

01:04:30

living down south. You know, Queenstown

01:04:32

is obviously such a a a wealth of

01:04:35

different characters. It's a really

01:04:36

quirky place. Like it's almost on a lay

01:04:38

line. People are a bit crazy there.

01:04:40

>> Parties are crazier. Uh the ambition's

01:04:43

crazier. Look at bungee jumping. There's

01:04:44

an elevated energy in Queenstown when

01:04:46

people get there, they're just like

01:04:47

suddenly a bit bumped and so it's um a

01:04:50

super cool place. So I I draw on that a

01:04:52

lot. I've got a new show that I've been

01:04:54

in the UK writing for a month um called

01:04:56

Hunter Valley which is based down there.

01:04:59

So that's in development at the moment.

01:05:01

That's that's a show that I you know

01:05:03

really believe in. So um often drawing

01:05:06

on that but then you know I'm also

01:05:08

writing writing another show that's um

01:05:10

completely different. So, you know,

01:05:12

normally got a couple of dramas on the

01:05:14

go at once. Um, we've got we've probably

01:05:16

got one of the better drama teams in New

01:05:18

Zealand. Um, in terms of woman called

01:05:21

Kathleen Anderson who was from TVNZ and

01:05:23

she's just got a lot of talent in terms

01:05:25

of packaging drama and so way we go.

01:05:29

>> When I had um Dame Julie Christie on the

01:05:31

podcast, she I asked her this question.

01:05:33

I'm going to ask you the same one about

01:05:34

which TV show do you wish you made? She

01:05:36

said um David Lomass's missing pieces

01:05:39

and also something that was out on

01:05:41

Netflix at the time um a documentary

01:05:43

about Martha Stewart because she just

01:05:45

liked the way it was shot using your

01:05:47

B-roll and not actual interviews.

01:05:48

>> What about you? What TV shows do you

01:05:50

wish you made?

01:05:50

>> I I always have the same answer. I mean

01:05:53

if you want to know what show wish I

01:05:54

created,

01:05:55

>> Mythbusters.

01:05:57

>> Yeah. Have you heard of Mythbusters?

01:05:59

>> Of course. Yeah. With the two the two

01:06:01

siders.

01:06:01

>> That show has gone on forever. They are

01:06:05

brilliant. It is sold everywhere and it

01:06:08

made a fortune. I'm not about making

01:06:10

money because it was also educational.

01:06:14

Kids could watch with their parents. So,

01:06:16

it was crossover. It was just

01:06:18

everything. It was science, technology,

01:06:21

it was quirky. Everyone in the world

01:06:23

wanted to watch it. And it it was just

01:06:26

brilliant. Like that show. I look at

01:06:28

that and I go, that was perfect,

01:06:30

>> you know, to be honest. uh you know and

01:06:32

in drama you know obviously we do

01:06:34

factual and we do drama um you know uh

01:06:38

there's so many good dramas but you know

01:06:40

obviously um I think you know for me

01:06:43

succession is probably you know my

01:06:45

favorite sort of show just for dialogue

01:06:47

and character and just just how bad

01:06:50

people behave. So

01:06:51

>> yeah.

01:06:52

>> Um some of the shows that you have been

01:06:53

responsible for making um

01:06:55

>> yeah you mentioned Paul Castley before

01:06:57

the name as um the voiceover for the

01:06:59

Lion Man. Uh he was also involved with

01:07:01

um Eating Media Lunch which is one of

01:07:03

yours. That would never be made today. E

01:07:05

not in a million years.

01:07:07

>> Funny you should say that. Um

01:07:08

>> Oh really? Oh, well, you know, we've

01:07:10

it's often been thought about bringing

01:07:13

it back, and I talked to Jeremy last

01:07:15

week about it, and and I I haven't

01:07:17

talked to Paul yet, but we kind of

01:07:19

agreed that the way it's the way it is

01:07:21

and the way it behaves, uh, is that it

01:07:24

would be misinterpreted now because it

01:07:26

was satire. And so, you know, it never

01:07:28

kicked down. It always kicked up. And

01:07:30

that's what satire does. You know, it

01:07:32

highlights, um, failings in society and

01:07:35

takes on people in control. And it's

01:07:38

different to comedy. And so, but if

01:07:40

people read it on paper and they saw us

01:07:42

doing some of our sketches, like the

01:07:43

theme behind it was one of ignorance.

01:07:47

You know, we're saying, why do people

01:07:48

hold these ignorant opinions? And we

01:07:50

would replicate them to highlight them.

01:07:52

But if you did a day in black and white,

01:07:54

it would be killed. It would be killed.

01:07:56

Like it couldn't go to air. Incredibly

01:08:00

online, it is having a huge resurgence.

01:08:02

You know, hundreds of thousands of

01:08:03

viewers. Um, you know, for example,

01:08:06

Jeremy, um, he walked down K Road and

01:08:10

ate kebabs and slowly became a Muslim

01:08:12

and by the end he was reading the Quran,

01:08:15

which of course, as we know, doesn't

01:08:17

actually have that much insightful text

01:08:18

in it, but reading the Quran and was um,

01:08:21

planning to blow up the Sydney nuclear

01:08:23

power plant. Um, and what we're saying

01:08:26

there, whilst that looks completely

01:08:28

ethnosentric and dangerous, what we're

01:08:29

saying there was how freaking ignorant

01:08:32

are we, that we think that every Muslim

01:08:33

we meet is actually an aggressive

01:08:36

person. And of course, we learned

01:08:38

through Bondi that they're not.

01:08:40

>> You know, we learned that um that there

01:08:42

were people that were Muslims who were

01:08:44

willing to take down Muslims uh in, you

01:08:47

know, for the good of humanity. You

01:08:48

know, it was it was interesting.

01:08:50

>> That show was iconic. I I don't think I

01:08:52

ever missed an episode of it.

01:08:53

>> Yeah. Uh, it was incredible.

01:08:56

Um, I've heard you say the name Eating

01:08:58

Media Lunch came from a a Ben Elton

01:09:00

book. Yeah.

01:09:00

>> What What like What does it even mean?

01:09:02

>> Um, so it's in a book called

01:09:04

Inconceivable or Maybe Baby, I can't

01:09:06

remember which one, but it's two guys uh

01:09:09

one guy's at the BBC. This is in the

01:09:11

book and it's fiction. And his best mate

01:09:15

is his boss and he goes out to lunch

01:09:16

with his best mate and he slowly

01:09:18

realizes that his best mate is making

01:09:20

him redundant. And so there's this

01:09:23

moment and he said there I was sitting

01:09:25

there having lunch with my best uh there

01:09:27

I was you know with my best mate um

01:09:30

being made redundant dot dot dot eating

01:09:32

media lunch and I just I I was in the

01:09:35

[ __ ] down in Queens. And I said to

01:09:37

Leanne, "I love that phrase, eating

01:09:38

media lunch. It's really good." And you

01:09:41

know, and I'd already wanted I'd already

01:09:43

worked with Jeremy on a show and Paul,

01:09:45

we'd made a ski show called Shred, which

01:09:47

was pretty much an excuse for us all to

01:09:49

go to Queenstown and um and to go down

01:09:52

and do a show. Leanne hosted it as well,

01:09:55

Jeremy. And we had a great time, but I'd

01:09:57

already worked with them. And then we

01:09:58

made Shred. And that's when Paul and

01:10:01

Jeremy started to get really

01:10:02

problematic. Like, you know, we had

01:10:04

complaints about it. And it was a ski

01:10:06

show. Like it was edgy. And I said, "Why

01:10:09

are we doing a ski show when we can do

01:10:12

the world? Like let's forget skiing.

01:10:14

Let's take this attitude out of shred

01:10:16

and put it into eating media lunch."

01:10:18

That was my idea to grow their world

01:10:20

out. And it was all out of BFM. So it's

01:10:22

a whole, you know, Great Southern really

01:10:24

is is kind of a BFM iteration cuz we

01:10:27

were all at BFM. You know, I was doing

01:10:29

the wire and Marcus was doing breakfast

01:10:31

and Mikey was there, Jeremy was there,

01:10:33

Paul was there, Graeme was there. So,

01:10:35

they all got involved in one way or

01:10:38

another um you know into Great Southern.

01:10:41

So, um and eating media lunch uh I had

01:10:44

the name and then uh you know, we all

01:10:48

love shows like uh the dayto-day which

01:10:50

is a British show, very funny. Alan

01:10:52

Partridge is on it and that was what

01:10:54

inspired us into eating media lunch. M

01:10:56

>> it was but it seems um like unfathomable

01:10:59

that you got over the line like the

01:11:01

layers of management that you had to go

01:11:02

through at TV and Zed to get like it was

01:11:05

one it was the most incredible pitch. It

01:11:07

was incredible like I had a picture of

01:11:10

Jeremy you know looking like you know

01:11:13

the young Jeremy or looking you know

01:11:14

like a big Greek god. And then I wrote

01:11:17

eating media lunch on the other side and

01:11:19

I held it up to the programmer at TV2

01:11:21

Julia Balis. I said, "We got this." And

01:11:24

she went, "I [ __ ] love it. I want

01:11:26

that." And then she went, "What is it?"

01:11:31

And she just went, "What is it?" Like,

01:11:33

and I went and and then it was bluster

01:11:35

because what was it? You know, we, you

01:11:38

know, we did go down south down to

01:11:40

Queenstown and Paul and I and Jeremy

01:11:43

spent a weekend, you know, whiteboarding

01:11:45

and thinking up ideas and all this. We

01:11:47

came up with a few like celebrity share

01:11:49

market and a few things like that. Um

01:11:52

but then in the end Paul just went h

01:11:54

[ __ ] it. We'll just do what we feel like

01:11:56

you know we'll just go back and when we

01:11:57

start we start we'll just you know so it

01:11:59

wasn't a format. It was sort of like

01:12:01

what's an idea of the week and then

01:12:04

Jeremy um you know they started out with

01:12:06

stutter which was the first um the first

01:12:09

episode and we sent it into TV and Julia

01:12:13

rung up and she was just absolutely

01:12:16

wetting herself with laughter. It was

01:12:17

unbelievable. It was so funny.

01:12:18

>> Is that when he was finding tool back

01:12:20

stations with a

01:12:20

>> stutter?

01:12:21

Yeah. And doing the Mari de Mari dea and

01:12:25

all that and um Yeah. And then he did

01:12:27

the Tenoto challenge and stuff and you

01:12:31

know it's just um you know satire does

01:12:34

challenge things and the there really

01:12:36

isn't any satire in New Zealand at the

01:12:38

moment. It's comedy and it's really good

01:12:40

like seven days. you know, all of our

01:12:42

brilliant comedians who are all so

01:12:44

talented and doing so well on the

01:12:46

international stage like Rose Metafo and

01:12:48

Chris Parker and all these it's

01:12:50

incredible what what these guys are

01:12:52

doing. Satire is kind of like not

01:12:53

comedians. Like we're actually just a

01:12:55

bunch of little shits. Like we none of

01:12:57

us would ever stand on a stage and do

01:12:59

standup. So, it's a different form of

01:13:01

comedy. It's kind of like taking pot

01:13:03

shots at everyone, but always aiming up

01:13:06

and never never kicking down. And that's

01:13:09

that's why it was so charming. the uh

01:13:11

Tenoto challenge that you're talking

01:13:12

about. I remember that clearly. It was

01:13:14

just Yeah. Jeremy again ringing talkback

01:13:16

stations and um when the host um

01:13:18

introduces him just saying Tenoto as

01:13:20

many times as he can before they they

01:13:22

cut him off. What was the record like 18

01:13:24

or something?

01:13:25

>> Oh yeah, I think that was Southland TV

01:13:27

and uh of course being Southlanders they

01:13:30

were way more polite and let this guy go

01:13:32

cuz a they probably were trying to

01:13:33

interpret what the word was and um b

01:13:36

they were just more gracious about it.

01:13:38

But um Michael Laws uh was the shortest.

01:13:41

He was he snapped us off really quick

01:13:43

and

01:13:43

>> one

01:13:45

get rid of him. So um yeah, they they

01:13:49

targeted the right people, you know,

01:13:51

like every year um I was always

01:13:53

staggered by who the New Zealander of

01:13:55

the year would be and like Paul Castley

01:13:57

has just got such a um different

01:13:59

perspective on things like he can just

01:14:01

find things. He goes, "Oh, it's obvious

01:14:03

like

01:14:04

>> who the New Zealand of the year is." And

01:14:05

it was a guy who got pulled up for a

01:14:08

speeding ticket driving down the

01:14:09

northwestern motorway and he had no arms

01:14:11

and he was driving with his feet and

01:14:14

he's he was doing 140 ks an hour down

01:14:16

the northwestern motorway when he got

01:14:18

pulled over. So we presented the New

01:14:20

Zealander of the year award to him, you

01:14:22

know, like that's the way we were

01:14:24

thinking, you know, it's like finding

01:14:26

these different things and you know,

01:14:27

there's some really um really boundary

01:14:31

pushing. You couldn't do it today. You

01:14:33

can still do satire, but it just has to

01:14:35

be you have to understand that when it

01:14:38

does go out onto social media in black

01:14:39

and white and you see it written down,

01:14:42

it looks what it looks and what it is

01:14:44

saying is kind of two different things.

01:14:46

It would be very it would be dangerous,

01:14:47

but it can be done.

01:14:48

>> Oh, so you got to think of the optics of

01:14:50

how it look out of context.

01:14:52

>> Yeah. When it goes to the BSA, like we

01:14:54

went to the BSA few times with eating

01:14:56

media lunch, never had one complaint

01:14:58

upheld because the adjudicators said

01:15:01

this is this is satire. this is in the

01:15:03

name of this and the complainant doesn't

01:15:05

understand the context of what they were

01:15:07

saying and so we could always sit behind

01:15:09

satire but today in black and white when

01:15:11

you see it and you take it in a little

01:15:13

piece and you don't understand the

01:15:15

context of what's trying to be said uh

01:15:18

people could go crazy and you know it's

01:15:20

a shame because it's the 3% that make

01:15:22

the most noise to get the most attention

01:15:24

we've now got the other 97% in New

01:15:26

Zealand down in you know it's huge in it

01:15:29

university eating media lunch they all

01:15:31

love it cuz it's saying the truth. It's

01:15:33

say it's authentic.

01:15:35

>> Yeah. It's the the noisy minority. A and

01:15:37

often people that that that

01:15:39

>> don't even watch the show or may not

01:15:41

even be offended, but they're just like

01:15:42

virtue signalers or something. Yeah.

01:15:44

>> So, but the the show just looping back

01:15:46

to something you said before. So, the

01:15:47

show in some form could make a comeback.

01:15:50

>> Uh we Yeah. I I think that, you know, as

01:15:54

I was saying before, the split from

01:15:55

comedy to satire is one where I think

01:15:59

highlighting a lot of the absurdities in

01:16:01

New Zealand, in our society is ripe.

01:16:03

It's absolutely ripe. But I do think,

01:16:05

you know, you proceed with caution, but

01:16:08

and you definitely I always say it's

01:16:09

like an America's Cup course. You sail

01:16:11

right out to the point and you tack and

01:16:13

come back. We would be sailing more not

01:16:16

quite going out like eating me lunch

01:16:18

went out over the course and then turned

01:16:20

because they were always going a little

01:16:22

bit further and but you can still do it

01:16:25

like like society still deserves a voice

01:16:28

you know and so many people are down

01:16:30

rabbit holes and everyone's got their

01:16:32

thing that they know so much about now

01:16:34

and um it's it's got really concerning

01:16:37

to see people so sort of polarized and

01:16:39

so the media has changed so much.

01:16:42

There's so much to lampoon and so much

01:16:44

to look at. I I think yeah, it easily

01:16:46

can have its day.

01:16:47

>> Wow. Another one of your um amazing

01:16:51

shows is the Casceteers.

01:16:53

>> Yeah.

01:16:53

>> How how did that come about? Did did you

01:16:56

did you sort of meet the Tiffany's in in

01:16:58

passing and think this would be a good

01:17:00

idea for a show or did someone um like

01:17:02

you put them on your radar? How does

01:17:05

that come about? Um so we we we

01:17:07

basically were making the hoie but um so

01:17:10

Annabelle Lee is a wonderful producer

01:17:13

Mhei Forbes they kind of were leaving MI

01:17:17

television and they came to me and they

01:17:19

had three ideas and they had the hoie

01:17:23

um New Zealand wars and casketeers first

01:17:26

pitch ever where people have walked in

01:17:29

three ideas all commissioned and all

01:17:31

went forever. So the hoie is still

01:17:33

going. New Zealand wars are still going

01:17:36

and the casketeers are still going. This

01:17:38

is 10 years.

01:17:39

>> So So um Annabelle Belle said, "Look, I

01:17:44

know these people who are kind of like a

01:17:45

TV show, but they're for real. You you

01:17:47

should meet them." And so I went out and

01:17:50

I I didn't go out, but she filmed them.

01:17:52

And I talked to them, and they were they

01:17:54

were incredible. So Annabelle shot some

01:17:57

footage of them and I then went into a

01:18:00

suite and cut like a 4-minute promo one

01:18:02

weekend, gave it to TV and it and you

01:18:05

know it got buried for about a year.

01:18:07

>> Excuse the pun.

01:18:09

>> Yeah, that's a terrible pun. Oh god.

01:18:11

Yeah. Okay. Uh so I'm going to have to

01:18:13

watch that from here on in. But you know

01:18:15

there was sort of like they just didn't

01:18:18

want to show on Undertakers. That was

01:18:19

fair enough. Uh but I was trying to say

01:18:22

this is funny. This is really good. And

01:18:24

in the end, um, we managed to do a deal

01:18:26

with TVNZ that worked for everyone for

01:18:29

TVNZ. Uh, and we got the funding and the

01:18:33

rest is history. In fact, uh, I sort of

01:18:36

knew we're on to something because one

01:18:38

of the first calls we got after the

01:18:39

first episode was Paul Cassie saying, "I

01:18:42

want Jeremy to go out there and do a

01:18:44

show on Seven Sharp about them." And and

01:18:46

that's when I realized uh because Paul

01:18:48

has got a knack for knowing what's Kiwi

01:18:50

and what's going to get under what's

01:18:52

going to infiltrate society and he so he

01:18:55

went out there and I thought this is

01:18:57

going to be something really special and

01:18:59

the people you know the Tippines are are

01:19:01

awesome people. You know the media had a

01:19:02

crack at them about a year ago. Um and

01:19:05

>> problem not a problem with them though

01:19:06

with the staff member right? Yeah, it

01:19:07

was with a staff member and when the

01:19:09

full truth came out because you know

01:19:11

there was some some reporting that you

01:19:14

know had to be redacted uh and and the

01:19:17

reportage and and the company did redact

01:19:19

and and acted responsibly but it just

01:19:22

gave them the ability to assure people

01:19:24

that this was a a lone wolf operator and

01:19:27

that they do have a fantastic company

01:19:29

which they do. My mom died last year. Of

01:19:32

course, the casketeers, my mom had

01:19:33

insisted, Francis and you know, Ky going

01:19:37

to bury me. Don't you have anyone else?

01:19:38

So, of course, the moment my mom Heather

01:19:40

died, you know, I rang the casketeers

01:19:42

and they did a wonderful job. And so, of

01:19:45

course, they did, you know, and because

01:19:46

it got such heart, you know, that's what

01:19:48

everyone loved, you know.

01:19:49

>> Yeah.

01:19:50

>> It was actually um I completely missed

01:19:52

the show. I I think it must have been

01:19:54

broadcast on Netflix in Australia and my

01:19:56

sister in Perth, she was like, "Oh my

01:19:58

god, you've got to watch the Casceteers

01:19:59

and I watched it on TV and Z Plus, but

01:20:02

um yeah, I thought that was

01:20:03

interesting."

01:20:04

>> Yeah. Well, it's a beautiful combination

01:20:05

of character, but also culture and

01:20:08

society and so and language. So, it sort

01:20:10

of tied everything in and it taught us,

01:20:12

you know, like obviously as Pakiha, you

01:20:15

know, our version of death and death

01:20:17

ritual is quite sort of it is quite

01:20:19

Scottish really. It's sort of like Yeah.

01:20:21

Whereas like you know there's a

01:20:23

celebration aspect. So for I think um

01:20:25

Pak New Zealand were able to see that

01:20:27

you know death is part of a process and

01:20:29

it it you don't have to be so scared you

01:20:31

know of these things and so it sort of

01:20:33

elevated people and and it was very

01:20:35

educational but what wonderful teachers

01:20:38

and they're off in a few weeks off

01:20:40

overseas doing another series. So we

01:20:42

switched them out from we'd sort of done

01:20:44

enough leaf blower and buried enough

01:20:46

people in enough cultural learnings and

01:20:48

TV and Zed were fantastic. They said,

01:20:49

"What else can we do?" And we were like,

01:20:51

"Well, they can go on the road and look

01:20:53

at um sort of life and death on the

01:20:55

road." And so they've already been and

01:20:57

done one series which is hugely

01:20:59

successful. They're about to do another

01:21:01

series we're about to shoot. So it's a

01:21:03

it's a it's a good one.

01:21:05

>> Yeah. And a lot of fun.

01:21:07

>> Um these stories are great. By the way,

01:21:09

I've got like a massive list of these

01:21:11

shows, but unfortunately we got a

01:21:12

limited time. But oh, another one. Who

01:21:14

wants to be a millionaire? Um, there's a

01:21:17

rumor I heard that you you didn't even

01:21:19

have a million dollars to give away as

01:21:20

prize money.

01:21:22

>> Well, I was, you know, I said I was a

01:21:24

bit dreamy earlier on in the interview.

01:21:26

I was sort of a bit like a little bit

01:21:28

vague in the producing fronts on the

01:21:30

insurance and what we're covered for

01:21:32

like and we did we did give away I think

01:21:36

we gave away 250,000.

01:21:38

It it was all through insurers basically

01:21:40

and where we were covered. And so um I

01:21:44

uh there was there was gray area. There

01:21:47

was gray area when when I was in

01:21:48

Australia. I think I went gray. I

01:21:50

remember I was walking ironically I was

01:21:52

walking past a hotel in the main street

01:21:54

called the Great Southern Hotel which uh

01:21:57

same name as the company. I remember TV

01:21:59

and said and I said to them, "Yeah, but

01:22:00

you know if we got to this point, you

01:22:03

know, you you have agreed you' put in

01:22:05

that amount." It was like, "No, no, no.

01:22:06

We'd only do it once and we'd already

01:22:08

given away." And I was I was like,

01:22:10

"Yeah, but our insurers say this." And

01:22:11

it all got a little bit uh but that's

01:22:14

the risk you take, you know, like um

01:22:16

it's high-risisk business.

01:22:18

>> That's terrifying.

01:22:20

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we we we got away,

01:22:23

you know, Husking was incredible. I I

01:22:25

think, you know, he's sort of it's a bit

01:22:28

sad with Mike because, you know, he's

01:22:31

he's so good on radio, but he was so

01:22:34

good on television. Like he's he was the

01:22:37

master,

01:22:37

>> you know. He he he came in and did that

01:22:39

show just in a blink and he was as good

01:22:41

as the Australian host who'd been doing

01:22:43

it for a decade and all the Australians

01:22:45

said that and he did it on the first

01:22:47

episode.

01:22:47

>> Oh, he's a phenomenal broadcaster. Yeah.

01:22:49

The radio stuff you're talking about in

01:22:50

t in terms of TV, he did breakfast for a

01:22:53

while and he did seven sharp. Why do why

01:22:55

do you say it's a bit sad with him?

01:22:56

>> Well, he's not on TV.

01:22:57

>> Oh, right, right, right.

01:22:59

>> Yeah. like I just wish uh there was

01:23:01

something you know to get his viewpoint

01:23:03

across you know he's got he's got an

01:23:05

interesting viewpoint a lot of people

01:23:07

agree with it and he's got a lot to say

01:23:09

um but he doesn't need it you know he's

01:23:12

he's comfortable he's done really well

01:23:14

um but occasionally I'd like to

01:23:16

encourage him to push himself and maybe

01:23:18

consider you know giving something back

01:23:20

or giving a perspective that might help

01:23:23

uh the wider you know community that's

01:23:25

that's helped him become who he is

01:23:27

>> I wonder there there was um when he was

01:23:29

on seven sharp a few years ago, there

01:23:30

was um like this big change.org petition

01:23:33

to like to get him off TV. I wonder if

01:23:35

that had some sort of impact on him.

01:23:36

You'd probably never get him to admit

01:23:38

it. Um but I remember it felt really

01:23:40

really mean and personal at the time.

01:23:42

>> Yeah,

01:23:42

>> I think he subscribes to the don't let

01:23:44

the bastards get you down uh theory. I

01:23:47

think he he lives he lives a really uh

01:23:50

enjoyable life and I think uh it doesn't

01:23:52

bother him too much

01:23:53

>> and he's actually um he's actually like

01:23:55

yeah super hardworking, super positive,

01:23:58

super optimistic, super enthusiastic.

01:24:00

>> Yeah, great guy.

01:24:01

>> Yeah.

01:24:02

>> Um how do you feel about the uh current

01:24:05

state of media and in particular TV in

01:24:07

New Zealand? Um well it's obviously in a

01:24:10

huge change cycle you know and it's less

01:24:13

of a pivot and more of a kind of a

01:24:15

complete reconstruction of how the

01:24:16

fundamentals operate and that's mainly

01:24:19

because like everything what we're doing

01:24:20

it's about eyeballs and we're all

01:24:21

competing for eyeballs. Eyeballs have

01:24:23

moved. They've moved on to YouTube.

01:24:24

They've moved on to streaming services.

01:24:26

Traditional networks have got less money

01:24:28

because there's less people watching. So

01:24:30

advertisers pay less and they're taking

01:24:32

their money elsewhere. you know, an

01:24:34

advertiser now can target something like

01:24:36

if they want a 16-year-old boy in Mangry

01:24:38

who wants to buy a bike somewhere within

01:24:41

an algorithm, you will be able to find

01:24:43

an advertising campaign uh on social

01:24:46

media that can get to that boy.

01:24:47

Television can't do that. It just sort

01:24:49

of blasted out everywhere. So,

01:24:50

obviously, we've got that challenge and

01:24:52

then at the same time, we've got AI

01:24:53

colliding with this change. So, it's how

01:24:56

you adapt to AI and and the non-humanity

01:24:59

of that. So multiple challenges but the

01:25:02

New Zealand government to be honest has

01:25:04

been really supportive and understands

01:25:05

that we have to grow the industry. you

01:25:07

know, we have, you know, uh, wool, meat,

01:25:09

fish, timber, all diesel, all put in

01:25:12

ships, sent overseas, carbon toxic.

01:25:14

People in Europe don't want to touch it

01:25:16

because it's come so far. We still sell

01:25:20

a lot, but that's not our growth. Like

01:25:22

our industry, $3.5 billion, can grow. We

01:25:25

think, you know, it can be a $5 billion

01:25:27

industry and we send it down a fiber

01:25:28

optic cable. So, my view is that New

01:25:30

Zealand can become a film set. You know,

01:25:33

it employs so many people and generates

01:25:35

so much money. So we have got good

01:25:37

government support New Zealand air film

01:25:39

commission government itself to grow it

01:25:41

to make it bigger because we need

01:25:42

alternative industries and Rod talked

01:25:44

about this

01:25:45

>> you know we can't be just putting up

01:25:47

forests that destroy our towns and you

01:25:50

know and having uh milk powder that's

01:25:53

got beef and all of that you involved in

01:25:56

in in the manufacturing of it when we

01:25:59

can use our IP and our brains that's our

01:26:01

future. So I believe optimistically that

01:26:04

once all of this settles down again, AI

01:26:06

is going to disrupt a lot, but there's

01:26:08

definitely some blocks there in terms of

01:26:10

what humans want to see, um, we're going

01:26:13

to see networks settle into more of a a

01:26:16

new normal and, uh, away we go. So I

01:26:20

remain optimistic.

01:26:21

>> Yeah. Yeah, you you are you're a

01:26:23

relentless optimist. Um, can AI be a

01:26:25

good thing in your industry?

01:26:26

>> It's useful. uh but uh you know I think

01:26:30

people are probably people need to be

01:26:32

reassured that there are controls and

01:26:34

systems in place but it's the people

01:26:36

themselves that are going to decide you

01:26:38

know like there was that Tilly Norwood

01:26:40

the the synthetic actor was launched

01:26:42

last year to the world we're going to

01:26:43

have a synthetic actor and these people

01:26:45

thought they're the smartest people in

01:26:46

the world and they're going to get an

01:26:48

agent in America and she's going to star

01:26:50

in a movie well she got crushed man all

01:26:53

of the slop that is on social media and

01:26:56

coming out on streams

01:26:58

The new generation, Gen Alpha, is about

01:27:01

authenticity.

01:27:03

And thank God for them. They're going, I

01:27:06

want real. I don't want to see Benny,

01:27:07

you know, in LA beside a swimming pool

01:27:09

with an umbrella. I want to see on the

01:27:11

couch telling me exactly how she feels

01:27:13

at the moment. That's what I That's

01:27:14

authenticity. And all the artists are

01:27:17

getting into it. So now when you come up

01:27:18

with a synthetic character, it's

01:27:20

absolutely not going to work. They said

01:27:23

they're going to give it an agent. The

01:27:24

agencies ran from it. So AI is going to

01:27:27

help us to be more efficient. But human

01:27:30

stories, human actors are always are

01:27:33

going to be core, you know, because I

01:27:35

think AI could become a genre within

01:27:37

like horror, that's an AI movie. But

01:27:40

when you want to go to a movie and you

01:27:41

want to see an actor like a Robert

01:27:43

Downey Jr. and you go there and you

01:27:45

know, I know his journey. I know he is

01:27:46

good and then he was bad and then he's

01:27:48

really naughty and then he did this and

01:27:50

now he's back and he looks good and you

01:27:52

know, I'm part of him. He's part of he's

01:27:55

lived and he's telling me a human story.

01:27:57

AI doesn't have a heart, you know, it's

01:27:59

scanning and skimming everything that's

01:28:01

gone before, you know, so it's not real.

01:28:04

And so, you know, we we still believe

01:28:07

that humans are going to are going to be

01:28:09

there even though it's going to be more

01:28:11

cost effective and there's going to be

01:28:12

some advantages, it's still about the

01:28:14

heart and soul.

01:28:14

>> Yeah, I love that. That's such a great

01:28:16

take. If you could commission one last

01:28:18

show with no ratings pressure and a big

01:28:20

budget, what would you make?

01:28:23

Uh

01:28:25

uh yeah that that's interesting. Like I

01:28:28

would I'd probably just want to make you

01:28:30

know like a plurabus you know a massive

01:28:33

high-end show in New Zealand like you

01:28:36

know maybe you know something like the

01:28:38

new America but be given the money to

01:28:40

actually make it uh the way that shows

01:28:43

like I've just watched Night Manager

01:28:44

which Amazon put a lot of money into.

01:28:46

It's just incredible. Um they the Jackal

01:28:49

was you know all around the world. I'

01:28:52

I'd just want to be given uh I'd be

01:28:54

happy with, you know, sort of 40 million

01:28:57

an episode and eight episodes. It's

01:29:00

possible.

01:29:00

>> Is it is that

01:29:01

>> Yeah, we could do that. You know, I I

01:29:03

believe we

01:29:04

>> That sounds like a lot like an

01:29:06

unfathomable amount of money.

01:29:07

>> Yeah. It disappears quick.

01:29:09

>> Does it Does it really?

01:29:10

>> Yeah. Doesn't matter how much you got.

01:29:12

It doesn't matter. Like, you know,

01:29:13

there's major movies in New Zealand that

01:29:15

come here. And uh they'll always turn

01:29:18

around and say, "We haven't got enough

01:29:19

money." even though they might have two

01:29:20

or 30 hundred million. There's never

01:29:22

enough money. They they always have to

01:29:23

take the water cooler away and cut back

01:29:25

on musli bars. So, it's just it's just a

01:29:29

bizarre thing. But, you know, at the

01:29:30

moment, we play in the, you know, 10 20

01:29:33

million game. If we can start bringing

01:29:36

bigger dramas, then it's going to help

01:29:38

everyone in New Zealand because it

01:29:40

stimulates so many jobs and and so much

01:29:43

um so much tax basically. It's good for

01:29:45

us.

01:29:46

>> When are you at your happiest? either

01:29:48

either at work or out of work. Yeah.

01:29:51

When when are you peak happiness?

01:29:52

>> Leanne would say it's when I'm on my

01:29:54

ride on listening to a podcast. So, I

01:29:56

mean, we've got, you know, I we mow

01:29:58

about uh 10 acres of of grass land on

01:30:02

our place down there. So, I love being

01:30:04

in Queenstown, having the barbecue on.

01:30:07

Uh you know, it's really beautiful down

01:30:09

there. It's quiet and um just hanging

01:30:12

out with mates. you know, obviously, you

01:30:14

know, friendship and companionship's

01:30:16

also very important to your, you know,

01:30:19

your life. Uh, freedom and purpose, they

01:30:21

say, are the two keys. I think that's

01:30:23

something out of some text somewhere,

01:30:25

Hinduism or something. But, uh, I think

01:30:28

for me, you know, being down in

01:30:30

Queenstown, being on the deck, cooking a

01:30:33

barbecue, watching the cricket, chatting

01:30:35

to Leanne, and just um doing simple

01:30:38

things. Yeah. As long as we win the

01:30:40

cricket, of course.

01:30:42

Well, you Yeah, you you control what you

01:30:44

can. Um, yeah, Leanne, you've mentioned

01:30:46

her a few times. Lean Malcolm, very well

01:30:48

known and respected New Zealand

01:30:49

journalist. That's been a successful

01:30:50

partnership. Hey, you guys have been

01:30:51

going a long time.

01:30:53

>> Yeah, we have.

01:30:53

>> Longer than Mythbusters.

01:30:54

>> Yeah. Longer than Yeah. Well, that's

01:30:56

that's ironic, but no, Le's like

01:30:58

reinvented herself into a musician and

01:31:00

she's called Gina Malcolm and she's

01:31:02

released an album that's um been really

01:31:04

positively reviewed internationally. Um

01:31:07

and uh we've got a recording studio on

01:31:10

our property now and uh but she records

01:31:13

um uh at another uh recording studio in

01:31:16

the South Island and um she's recorded

01:31:19

some really good music. So she's having

01:31:20

a great time doing that and uh yeah

01:31:23

she's she's wonderful broadcaster like

01:31:26

you know she was one of the best when

01:31:27

she was news reading

01:31:28

>> incredible

01:31:29

>> and um you know she she's just you know

01:31:33

bit bit of a chameleon is has changed

01:31:35

and she's always her family is very

01:31:37

musical Greg Malcolm her brother's

01:31:39

acknowledged New Zealand artist and um

01:31:41

you know I'm into music as well my son's

01:31:43

into music he he's drum and bass and he

01:31:46

tours around New Zealand plays the

01:31:48

festivals um played a festival at the

01:31:50

weekend. Um, so he's he's quite

01:31:53

successful as well. So music's our our

01:31:55

big thing in our family. That's what

01:31:57

keeps us all together.

01:31:58

>> At 61 years old, have you got your head

01:32:00

around drum and bass?

01:32:01

>> Uh, yeah. Yeah. Appreciation for it.

01:32:04

>> Drum and bass, you know, it's more like

01:32:06

jungle and and you know, which is more

01:32:08

like reggae. So it has, you know,

01:32:10

there's there's trance and hardcore and

01:32:12

beats per minute and really intense drum

01:32:14

and bass. There's c certain aspects of

01:32:16

it that that are accessible. And so he's

01:32:19

not really in that just full-on manta uh

01:32:23

kind of like thing. And we've we've met

01:32:25

the whole drum and bass community

01:32:26

globally like you know we've had the

01:32:28

founder of drum and bass whose best

01:32:30

mates were the stone roses stay with us.

01:32:32

So we've met the guys who tour and uh

01:32:35

we've met Dutch drum and bass all of

01:32:37

them have come and stayed with us. And

01:32:39

the one thing I've learned is that there

01:32:41

was a there was a drama in New Zealand

01:32:42

recently where they had these drum and

01:32:44

bass guys. They were involved in a

01:32:46

murder plot. It was one of these local

01:32:47

things and the writer wrote the drum and

01:32:49

bass guys and they all had tattoos and

01:32:51

they're driving a valiant. They look

01:32:53

like heavy metlers and I was like this

01:32:56

person has never met a drum and bass

01:32:58

exponent in their life but they should

01:33:01

have because drum and bass people are

01:33:03

you know they're not tattooed they're

01:33:05

nerdy. They wear glasses. They're quite

01:33:07

conservative. They might even wear

01:33:09

almost a rotten gun shirt. like they're

01:33:11

they're actually quite weirdly

01:33:14

conservative people in a way who make

01:33:16

these huge sounds globally. They don't

01:33:18

want to wear a rotten gunship, but

01:33:20

they're they're not that. So, you know,

01:33:24

it's quite fun. So, we meet, you know,

01:33:26

through Joel doing his um his

01:33:28

altercation through that we just meet

01:33:30

all these incredible musicians. Yeah.

01:33:32

So,

01:33:32

>> you being at a venue when some hardcore

01:33:35

drum and bass is being played, I don't

01:33:36

know what your cardiologist would say

01:33:37

about that.

01:33:38

>> Yeah. No, it's No, I've talked to Joel

01:33:40

about the beats per minute. He's he's

01:33:42

he's very on to that. I think I can't I

01:33:44

think drum base 180. Yeah. Beats per

01:33:47

minute. But then jungle drops down. So,

01:33:49

>> yeah. But, uh, you know, he played to 2

01:33:52

and a half thousand people like right in

01:33:54

Paradise at the weekend. I mean, it was

01:33:56

the most stunning thing you could ever

01:33:58

see down south. They basically had it in

01:34:00

the woods way out the back of Paradise.

01:34:02

So, this is south of Gleni. 2 and a half

01:34:04

thousand people went to and they lit all

01:34:06

the trees and it was a full moon. and

01:34:08

this music in the middle of the night,

01:34:09

you know, um it was certainly a night. I

01:34:12

think they had a psychedelic tent there,

01:34:14

uh rehab tent, so they were responsible,

01:34:16

but it looked like a hell of a time. I

01:34:19

got to admit. Yeah.

01:34:20

>> You're so proud. E I can tell like when

01:34:22

you talk about your wife's achievements

01:34:23

and your kids achievements. What's um

01:34:25

what would you say your best and worst

01:34:26

habits are?

01:34:28

Uh definitely too much time being

01:34:30

inquisitive and online, you know, like

01:34:32

scrolling and like I've got no social

01:34:35

media, so I so that's probably why I do

01:34:37

sit anonymous. I I I don't post

01:34:39

anything. Um but, you know, I you know,

01:34:43

I'm always I'm always inquisitive about

01:34:45

finding out stuff cuz you can use it in

01:34:47

writing. It's where you find ideas. So,

01:34:49

too much of that. Uh, you know, not

01:34:51

enough time probably out just walking

01:34:53

and refreshing your brain and making it

01:34:55

cleansing it. You know, exercise is

01:34:57

good. Leanne made me go and swim, you

01:34:58

know, 20 laps the other day and,

01:35:01

>> you know, she's she's really healthy and

01:35:02

she plays tennis and walks and does all

01:35:05

this good stuff. So, it's it's it's

01:35:07

good. It's good for me. Yeah.

01:35:09

>> Yeah.

01:35:10

>> Yeah. Is it that bad a habit? I I feel

01:35:12

like that maybe stem from your

01:35:13

journalism roots in a way.

01:35:14

>> Yeah. Yeah. I yeah I think well

01:35:17

apparently my iPhone says I spend too

01:35:19

much time on it. It's it apparently

01:35:21

somewhere in there it says you've been

01:35:22

on it for this amount of time you know

01:35:24

get a counselor. Oh, we've got a

01:35:26

counselor online, you know. So, hold on.

01:35:28

I'm trapped in this loop now. This like

01:35:30

tech loop. But, you know, chat's been is

01:35:33

is a great tool that actually speeds

01:35:35

things up for me, you know, it's such a

01:35:37

such an awesome tool.

01:35:39

>> GPT. Yeah.

01:35:40

>> Do you just use it as like a glorified

01:35:41

Google or

01:35:42

>> Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, same.

01:35:44

>> Don't I don't use it like obviously, you

01:35:45

know, we we're pretty much, you know,

01:35:47

we've pretty much prohibited ourselves

01:35:49

from using it in a creative space

01:35:50

because it's not creative. It's just

01:35:53

skimming what other people did in the

01:35:54

past. So, and it's not it's not real.

01:35:56

So, you know, in terms of being a

01:35:58

creative, it's it's it's a it can assist

01:36:01

in terms of writing sort of not it can

01:36:04

assist in terms of researching and

01:36:07

telling you of things, but then you

01:36:10

write like everything that comes out of

01:36:11

Great Southern, we have a human stamp

01:36:13

that we put on our projects in the

01:36:14

bottom corner. Human stamp generated by

01:36:16

humans. Like too many humans now are

01:36:18

just sending [ __ ] out that's written by

01:36:20

AI. In fact, I heard of someone recently

01:36:22

who sent someone else an email applying

01:36:24

for a job and at the bottom of the

01:36:25

application they it had in there,

01:36:28

>> do you like this version? I could next

01:36:31

um modify it and tell the employer they

01:36:33

left that on the bottom. You know that

01:36:36

>> oh my god that's so dumb.

01:36:37

>> Yeah, it's the dumbest thing ever. Like

01:36:39

right back going mate uh to actually

01:36:43

read what chat's written like. So um

01:36:47

yeah, but what's your question? What's

01:36:48

the best things and worst things? But

01:36:50

proud of Yeah.

01:36:52

>> Yeah.

01:36:52

>> Do you have any regrets?

01:36:54

>> I'll probably It does take up a lot of

01:36:57

time, you know, like and I probably

01:36:58

work.

01:36:59

>> Yeah. Like, you know, it's seven days a

01:37:01

week because there's always there

01:37:03

generally there's always a problem and

01:37:04

as a producer, not a writer, you're

01:37:07

always trying to resolve something, you

01:37:08

know, it just comes out of the blue. It

01:37:10

will just be and it's constant two or

01:37:12

three things a day in general where but

01:37:15

because I'm older now and I've seen it

01:37:17

before I can reassure the younger people

01:37:19

don't panic you know it's okay I've seen

01:37:21

this before we can solve this and you

01:37:22

know it's always through good

01:37:23

communication um so in terms of regrets

01:37:27

yeah I a I wanted to go back to Tanzania

01:37:30

and I haven't been back uh you know I'd

01:37:32

like to travel a little bit more um and

01:37:34

and see some amazing sort of I I do like

01:37:37

going to dangerous weird places you know

01:37:39

like so I've got some travel plans there

01:37:42

and um but otherwise no I I I am really

01:37:46

proud of of what we've achieved and in

01:37:48

particular our people at Great Southern.

01:37:50

So yeah,

01:37:51

>> you're never going to retire, are you?

01:37:53

>> No, no, not retire because it's that

01:37:56

sort of like stop thinking like I'll get

01:37:59

myself into a place where you know it

01:38:01

suits me more as I get older. Uh so that

01:38:04

I'm doing slightly less. But if you look

01:38:05

at John Barnett, you know, amazing guy,

01:38:08

you know, tragically died last year and

01:38:10

missed by the entire industry. But John

01:38:12

was still he still had massive projects.

01:38:14

He just shot Dark City.

01:38:16

>> John had big projects. He was still

01:38:18

going and he was 78 because

01:38:20

>> you're part of the community. So it's

01:38:22

just scale. But, you know, I'm always

01:38:25

thinking of ideas and going, is that an

01:38:26

idea? Is that a concept? Could I use

01:38:28

that? You know, like, you know, I hear

01:38:30

things like I heard a phrase recently

01:38:32

someone everyone was going on about

01:38:34

Seven Sisters, which is a suburb in, you

01:38:37

know, London. And, you know, my brain's

01:38:39

like, "That's a good name." Seven

01:38:40

Sisters is a good name. You know, like

01:38:42

my brain works like that. I'm going I

01:38:44

can see that on a tile. And these days

01:38:46

we're designing for tiles. And a tile

01:38:48

is, you know, on Netflix, the tile is

01:38:50

just the little icon you click on. You

01:38:52

have to be able to sell your show, its

01:38:54

name, and its concept on that one tile.

01:38:56

Now, that's how distilled our creative

01:38:59

process is now. You have to have it

01:39:01

right there. And so, I'm always trying

01:39:03

to think of the next idea.

01:39:05

>> Yeah. And there's that saying, don't

01:39:06

judge a book by its cover, but um the

01:39:07

thumbnail is the complete opposite of

01:39:10

that. Thumbnail is everything.

01:39:11

>> It's everything. You know, like when

01:39:13

you're going through your Netflix

01:39:14

options for the night, you know, you

01:39:15

kind of the thumbnail is really,

01:39:17

>> you know, you'll stop and it'll be an

01:39:19

actor or name or you can just sense a

01:39:21

genre. So, that's a real skill getting

01:39:24

that right. And so we we now really try

01:39:26

and distill our shows down and go what

01:39:28

is its absolute essence like down to

01:39:32

three-word log line and its title and

01:39:34

the visuals. You know what is our what's

01:39:37

the pitch? Because if you can't go into

01:39:38

a network and go it is just this and you

01:39:41

go let me explain it. It's a long story.

01:39:43

They just go glass over. You've got to

01:39:46

be able to go bang. It's this. And then

01:39:48

of course, you know, in this modern day

01:39:49

and age, the other thing is, you know,

01:39:51

you need the script, you need the

01:39:52

writer, you need the screen, you need

01:39:53

the actors, and then you need the

01:39:55

showrunner as well. So, you got to bring

01:39:57

in the director, the actors, the script.

01:39:59

You got to have it really well packaged

01:40:01

now with drama. So,

01:40:03

>> [ __ ] you've done so much and you've

01:40:04

still got so much to give. Um, last

01:40:06

question, Phil Smith, are you proud of

01:40:08

yourself?

01:40:09

>> Yeah, I guess I am. like you know and I

01:40:11

think even if someone like Cass is

01:40:13

watching I've always sort of uh you know

01:40:17

to sell you you have to give people

01:40:19

confidence in you so you have to sell

01:40:21

yourself and and a lot of young people

01:40:23

today don't sell themselves so I'm proud

01:40:25

to say you know things like yeah okay

01:40:28

I've won a lot of TV awards or you know

01:40:30

when we go internationally people have

01:40:32

to have faith that you're going to um

01:40:35

deliver for them so you have you have to

01:40:37

learn to sell yourself if you're not

01:40:38

going to sell yourself no one else will.

01:40:41

So, yes, I'm proud to tell people that

01:40:43

I've been successful. I don't do it on a

01:40:45

big sort of pariting stage and go on

01:40:49

social media and say it all, but I'm

01:40:50

proud of our achievements. I'm proud of

01:40:52

my my family, and that's pretty much

01:40:54

really what you want in life. And yeah,

01:40:57

no regrets.

01:40:58

>> This has been a great episode. I feel

01:41:00

like it's um it's a border collie I've

01:41:02

met today.

01:41:02

>> Oh, all right. That's nice, Dom. Yeah.

01:41:05

No, you've had so many incredible

01:41:07

guests. Really good. like and and this

01:41:10

is the beauty of this format. You can,

01:41:12

you know, you can talk and you can share

01:41:13

and tell these stories and and actually

01:41:16

get to the essence and get something out

01:41:17

of it.

01:41:18

>> You know, it's well done.

01:41:20

>> Yeah. Well, you're you're a great mate

01:41:21

and um now a great podcast guest and

01:41:23

it's been wonderful to connect with you

01:41:24

in front of the microphones today.

01:41:26

>> Yeah. Thank you.

01:41:27

>> Cheers.

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