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From Manslaughter to Māori Farmer of the Year: The Incredible Story Of Ben Purua

July 30, 2025 / 01:51:53

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Ben Padua, welcome to my podcast.

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>> Yeah, thanks Dom. We were just um you,

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by the way, you you bought me a gift.

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You bought me a crayfish, which is

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wonderful. And uh it's freshly caught.

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>> Yeah. So, we went out diving uh late

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last night and we got out of the water

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maybe just after midnight. Um yeah, got

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our limit of craze and got a few kina

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for another um actually content creator

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that's up here in Tamaki. Uh so yeah,

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he's going to be doing something with uh

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is it

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um the rugby from USA. So right

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>> who's the content creator?

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>> Uh Louis Davis.

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>> I've had him on the podcast as well.

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>> Oh yes. Yes.

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>> Make him He's always in the ocean. Get

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him Make him get his own crayfish.

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>> Yeah. Oh, he was in he was in Tamaki and

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then he put a post up um any any divers

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that can get some some ka or one can

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anyways. Um so yeah.

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>> Amazing. And you while you went to the

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car to get the crayfish, um your wife

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Nikki told me that you're real nervous.

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She said she's never seen you this

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nervous. She said you were nervous

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yesterday about doing the podcast.

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>> Yeah. Um

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>> what's up?

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>> I don't know. I just I just think this

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is a big deal, bro. Um,

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>> she told also told me you didn't even

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know who I was.

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>> I Yeah, I heard of you on on radio and

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stuff like that. But yeah, um I don't

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know, just seen some of the names that

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you've interviewed over the over the

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time and yeah, I think that this is a

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pretty pretty big deal and you know, I'm

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pretty honored to be honest.

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>> Oh man. Well, I'm honored to have you

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here as well.

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>> So, first up, um, who is Ben Padua?

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Um, so

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I was born and bread in Puko. Um, yeah,

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just born on the dark side and grew up

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over there. Um,

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yeah, currently a dairy farmer in the

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South Wat

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um family man. So, got my beautiful wife

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who's here with me today and got three

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girls. uh my my daughter Sam who's 3

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years old and our two older girls who

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are currently up here in in Oakland uh

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studying at university. So yeah.

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>> Awesome. You seem happy and content.

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>> Yeah, life is is pretty good at the

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moment. It's pretty hectic, but

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>> yeah, I I think if it if it wasn't, I'll

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probably be getting myself in trouble.

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>> Did you like say say 20 years ago, did

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you ever imagine life could be as good

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as what it is now?

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>> Oh, no way. No way. Um, yeah. So,

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oh, never thought that I would be here,

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>> to be honest.

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>> Let's go back. Um, yeah. So, how old are

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you now?

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>> Um, 30,

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>> right?

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>> Yeah. 30.

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>> Didn't you win Young Farmer? You're not

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that young.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Um, so the the cut off date is 31 for

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young for young, bro. So, I'm still in

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the bracket at the moment. just just

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lived

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>> so 30 now. Okay. So, um paint a picture

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of those um yeah early years in Pokoi.

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>> M

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um so yeah grew up in in dysfunction

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surrounded um and born into into the

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gangs and stuff like that. Um but you

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know what

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Faro was was awesome, bro. Um I my mom,

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you know, even though she had her

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struggles, you know, she really done

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what she could uh in in the upbringing.

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Um you know, to try and provide for for

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us, she was she was on her own and she

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had all of all of well myself and and my

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siblings to try and put Kai on the

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table. So she was she was pretty hard

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worker.

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>> Um

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>> how many siblings?

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>> So

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nine of us.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. in total. Um, but you know, all of

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us were sort of I never knew my my older

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brother until he was 14, 15.

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>> Yeah. Is when I sort of met my older

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brother for the first time. Um, he lived

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with our our biological father. And

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yeah, I grew up with my mom, my older

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sister, and and my younger siblings. And

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yeah, so my sister, yeah, she

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she done a lot of mahi while with with

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us siblings anyway when mom was at work

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and stuff like that. So

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>> did you do you have a relationship with

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your dad or much of a relationship?

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>> Not at all. I didn't know my father

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growing up.

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>> Uh he left before I was born and

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I've actually got another brother, a

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half brother, and we were both the same

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age. So

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>> yeah, put two and two together. He

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jumped the fence.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Um and yeah, so

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yeah, never knew my dad um until four or

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five years ago.

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>> Yeah. I sort of went on this journey of

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self-discovery and you know that was

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sort of missing link for me

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>> and you know I heard all the stories

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sort of about my dad growing up you know

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that he was a bad man and stuff like

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that and he was horrible etc and you

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know I

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that was the only picture I could paint

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of him and I wanted to know him myself

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so when I was old enough and yeah with

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the help of my wife actually um was able

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to find him in Fang Hospital and I sort

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of documented it on on YouTube. Um,

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meeting him for the very first time and

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yeah, he wasn't in a good good way. He

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had heart conditions and and stuff like

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that. Um, he just finished having a

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stint put in and and whatnot and yeah,

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so unfortunately that was the last time

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I got to meet him. Um,

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oh no, actually there's one more time

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after that at the hospital and yeah,

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that was pretty much it after after

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that. Um, he ended up passing away not

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long after. So

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>> you mentioned before um the gang

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involvement and stuff. So was was your

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mom connected to the gangs or was she

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just seeing gang members or

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>> um so my whole far I so my whole family

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all all in in the gangs and

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yeah like my uncles and all all my role

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models growing up uh were were all in

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the gangs and then had my stepdad uh who

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pretty much brought brought me up. He he

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was in the in the black pal as well.

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>> Uh who my mom was was with. And yeah, I

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seen a whole lot of

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ugly stuff. But you know, on the other

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hand, also seen

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um I guess

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yeah, some love. Um

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>> what sort of ugly stuff?

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um like the the the drugs, the alcohol,

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the party life, um the domestic violence

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and stuff like that, family violence,

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all all that sort of ugliness. Um

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you know, when that stuff wasn't around,

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it was actually pretty good.

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>> Yeah.

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>> When when the when the drugs and all

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that weren't in the picture and alcohol,

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for sure.

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>> Alcohol was probably the bigger one. Um,

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yeah. So, when those things went in in

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the picture, things were actually, you

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know, pretty good.

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>> It's it's a rough start, eh?

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>> Yeah, it is.

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>> You're on the back foot immediately.

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>> Yeah. And when you grow up in that

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environment, you just think it's normal.

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>> Well, it's all you know.

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>> Yeah. So, that's all

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>> that's all I pretty much knew growing

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up. And I was sort of I had some some

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good memories in my upbringing as well,

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especially with my uncle um as gang

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member and stuff like that uh for my 8th

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birthday come pick me up from school

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with some of my mates and took us out to

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KFC, you know. So those are some of my

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sort of earlier memories um of some of

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my role models, you know. So,

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>> it's funny that that st stand stands out

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cuz um you know being picked up from

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school and going to KFC you know I

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suppose if you've had like a like a I

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don't know like a privileged upbringing

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like me that's just one of those things

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that you may not even remember but for

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you it's a foundational memory.

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>> Yeah, I remember it quite vividly like

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Yeah. Like always used to deal.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah. Um and you know like poverty is is

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a massive thing you know

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>> and that brings so much dysfunction with

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it e so yeah when I got that that day I

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felt like I was on top of the world to

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be honest

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got to go to KFC and my uncle took me to

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the $2 shop and stuff like that and then

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um yeah got to grab me a few few toys

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and I think I got me a gun little toy a

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gun and and whatnot and went back to

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school.

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>> Were Were you Were you um Were you a

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good kid?

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>> Oh, [ __ ] I probably couldn't probably

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not

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probably not to be honest. Um yeah, I

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was

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bit selective here.

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>> I think a lot of kids like that. But did

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did you know did you know right from

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wrong?

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>> Um

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I knew what I knew. M

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>> hey I that's all I knew. I didn't really

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know whether it was right or wrong.

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Whatever that I was doing I was doing

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cuz I seen it.

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>> Um and yeah I guess you become a product

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of of the environment that you're in. So

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you know whatever that you see you end

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up becoming that. So

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>> when did you start going off the rails?

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>> Not when you getting in trouble at at

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primary school or anything. I actually

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struggled at school. Um

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>> learning or

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>> Yeah, I I struggled with learning cuz I

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couldn't read or write. Um

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so yeah, school for me was real

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difficult

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>> and I I felt like I

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become the class clown so that people

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didn't know that I had a reading

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disability or learning disability or

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anything like that. So I just played up

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um and sort of played it off, you know.

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So

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>> yeah, I didn't get people didn't get

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smart or anything.

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>> Yeah.

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>> You get in trouble at school. Class

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class clown is um you generally a

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pathway to trouble.

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>> Yeah. Um I got suspended and expelled

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from from school.

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>> Yeah.

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>> What for?

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>> Fighting.

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>> Yeah. For fighting. And so got expelled

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from Narawaha High School uh for

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fighting and cuz from Puki mom moved us

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down to the Watau uh to Naraja and I

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went to went to school there. It was

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cool. Um made some really good friends

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there but yeah just struggled e

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>> especially when you can't read or write

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it's real hard. Math math was probably

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my best subject to be honest. I knew how

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to count. And

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>> can Can you read all right now?

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>> I can now. I probably learned about five

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years ago.

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>> Unreal. Really?

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>> Yeah.

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>> How hard is it? I can't imagine like

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learning to do that stuff as um like a

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grown ass man in your 20s.

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>> Yeah. So, oh, I was fortunate enough

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through um the primary itto stuff which

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is course to do with uh dairy farming

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and and farming and through that I was

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able to get some support. Um, so they

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were able to get me like a laptop and

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and a tutor and and stuff like that. Um,

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they helped me learn to read and write.

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Uh, which was which was crazy. And and I

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was going to course one day and and the

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teacher was like, "Oh, can you read this

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paragraph out?" I was like, "Um,

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no, I can't." She was like, "What? It's

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just that little paragraph. Can you just

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read it out, please?" It's like, oh, I

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can't do it. was like, "Yeah." And then

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>> is that humiliating or

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>> It was um you know, it was quite hard.

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Uh and then from that moment she was

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like, "No, we can get you help." Like if

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you really want help, we we'll get it

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for you.

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>> And so, yeah, the my tutor and also my

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um training advisor at that time, yeah,

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put in the work and got me the support

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that I needed to start my journey of

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learning to read and write. And yeah,

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now I can I can read.

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>> Good for you. Have you read a book?

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>> Um I haven't read a whole book.

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>> Um yeah, my

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>> You can though. You can read a book.

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>> I can.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Awesome.

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>> And sure, that's cool.

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>> Uh yeah, probably on on the path of

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actually writing my own.

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>> No way.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Excellent. Well, I'll be the first to

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buy a copy. So,

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>> yeah. Um,

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so when you go to school,

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so so all you know is um the household

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that you're brought up in, but then you

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go to school, you meet other kids, you

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have friends, you go to their houses.

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>> Is that is that um

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for you? Like is that sort of a moment

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where you realize, okay, my household's

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not normal, this is normal?

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>> Yeah, I I've shared this before actually

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and you know I

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I was about maybe around seven eight

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somewhere there and I got the first got

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my first opportunity to go stay at a

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mate's house and yeah we went there and

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um was a sleepover

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and yeah I got to see a whole new world

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e so his dad was a was a police officer

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his mom was a hard worker and real

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loving family and you know I was friends

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with with him and his and his brother.

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We all went to school together and yeah,

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I just got to see a whole different

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picture to to what I seen in in our

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household. Uh which was a whole lot of

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love and and um

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I guess a present father, you know, and

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I actually felt jealous of it. I felt

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envious about that. um to the point

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where you know I sort of started hating

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on my mate and um yeah got off to some

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dumb [ __ ] and ended up um

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yeah doing

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I guess wrong by by them

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>> what what did you do? What's the dumb

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[ __ ]

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>> Uh so I ended up robbing their house

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because I felt jealous of that

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relationship that he had with his father

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because I I didn't have it. Um, yeah,

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>> that's heartbreaking.

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>> Yeah. So, I I always wanted a wanted a

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father.

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>> I always wanted a dad. And when I seen

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that, so the situation that I seen was

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it was bedtime. And the dad come in the

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room. And he goes, "Oh, good night,

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boys. Love you, son." That that moment

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hit me, bro. Hit me. I was like, "What

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is this? I've never ever heard that

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before from a man. Um, and yeah,

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it it hit home and I I got real thing

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about it and yeah, sort of got jealous

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and that led to to to that situation.

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I'm getting emotional hearing that,

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>> man. That's that's rough.

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>> Sorry, mate.

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>> Yeah. No, that's really that's really

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rough. And I can I can tell it's hard. I

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can tell you you feel shame like telling

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the story. Like

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>> it's not an easy story for you to share

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now, is it?

00:16:21

>> No. And like I feel [ __ ] for doing that

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to them. But

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>> like in that moment,

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>> [ __ ] I was just feeling all this

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ugliness and and that was my reaction to

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it, you know?

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>> And I

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I end up getting punished for that. So

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yeah.

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>> And did you buy who? Oh, so either

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calling my mom and and whatnot and she

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was like, "No, cool. I'm getting him

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down there and he can come and clean

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your house and and whatnot and yeah, so

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had to pay it all back and and whatnot."

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But you know, that was the situation

00:16:57

that I put myself in. Um, but yeah, that

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was through that whole thing around

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jealousy and rejection. You know,

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rejection was was huge.

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>> Yeah. M

00:17:08

>> when uh was your introduction to like

00:17:10

drugs and alcohol?

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>> My first

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my first taste of marijuana was I was

00:17:19

seven, eight. Yeah, I was about seven or

00:17:22

eight. Um

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>> where's that? Did you steal it or was it

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given to you or?

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>> No. So

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there's this time where all my cousins

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in there, we all stayed in the same

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house. Um but it was there was so many

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of us all in this one and yeah one of my

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cousins gave me a spot just a

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>> How old was your cousin?

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>> He would have been like 15 16 or

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something like that.

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>> That is so wrong.

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>> Yeah. And I would have been like seven

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or eight and they were they were having

00:17:52

a sesh and I was just there. Is your

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one? I was like yeah whatever. Had one.

00:17:58

I was smashed.

00:18:00

I was smashed. I ended up eating a whole

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tub of peanut butter after that.

00:18:07

Oh, and um anyway, my mom come home that

00:18:11

night and yeah, she

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she didn't know. Um yeah, I was I was

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smashed.

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>> Was um was an enjoyable experience or

00:18:21

was it frightening? Like I'm I'm just

00:18:23

thinking like I'm probably projecting

00:18:25

here, but if I was seven or eight and I

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was intoxicated,

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>> I think it'd be quite a scary feeling

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for me.

00:18:31

It it was out of it. Yeah. Um but I

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think the scary thing for me was when my

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mom come home and I was stay.

00:18:41

So I was trying to pretend that I was

00:18:43

asleep.

00:18:44

>> But yeah.

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>> So there there was some like love and

00:18:48

discipline in your household from your

00:18:49

mom. Eh.

00:18:50

>> Yeah. She you know she she done the best

00:18:53

she could man with with the situation

00:18:55

that she had. I say that I say people

00:18:58

generally do the best they can with the

00:19:00

resources and tools they've got at the

00:19:01

time.

00:19:02

>> Yeah, that's right.

00:19:02

>> And the thing is like you're um you're a

00:19:04

good dad, but you you'll be doing things

00:19:06

right now that that'll [ __ ] your kids up

00:19:07

and they'll be angry with you one day.

00:19:09

>> Yeah, for sure.

00:19:09

>> And then they'll have kids and it's the

00:19:11

same sort of thing, but you just do the

00:19:12

best you can.

00:19:13

>> Yeah. And um you know, she she was

00:19:17

loving. She is loving.

00:19:19

>> Um and yeah, she was a hard worker. Real

00:19:23

hard worker. always at mahi um to try

00:19:25

and put Kai on the table. You know, I

00:19:28

remember having to talk to my mom and

00:19:30

that's what she thought love was. Just

00:19:31

making sure that we had Kai in our

00:19:33

stomach

00:19:34

>> and a roof over our head.

00:19:35

>> Um you know, not actually realizing that

00:19:39

I love you was was, you know, heaps as

00:19:42

well.

00:19:44

>> Did she never sort of say that?

00:19:46

>> Not when I was growing up. I don't think

00:19:49

maybe a few times, but now Yeah. She

00:19:53

says it quite a lot.

00:19:54

>> Yeah,

00:19:57

>> that's that's really sad.

00:20:00

>> It's um but you know starting to hear

00:20:03

about her journey

00:20:05

>> and how she grew up like Yeah.

00:20:09

Um,

00:20:10

I would love to actually hear a lot more

00:20:12

about my mom's journey to be honest cuz

00:20:15

you know we grow up and become adults

00:20:17

and you know our parents or my mom for

00:20:20

example she just done everything to get

00:20:23

us you know to here and then we don't

00:20:26

actually know what she went through you

00:20:27

know so

00:20:28

>> I would actually love to know more about

00:20:30

my mom's story and

00:20:32

>> you know yeah

00:20:34

>> well it's not too late eh

00:20:35

>> no it's never too late um you M yeah

00:20:41

just the reasons why a lot of a lot of

00:20:43

things were the way that they were you

00:20:45

know.

00:20:45

>> Yeah.

00:20:47

>> So um we seven or eight. Um what about

00:20:51

um alcohol and meth?

00:20:53

>> Um

00:20:55

so yeah I was a hard out. I loved I

00:20:59

loved weed.

00:21:00

>> Um to the point where I my nickname was

00:21:03

blazed.

00:21:04

>> At what age? Uh, so I got that given to

00:21:06

me maybe I was still quite young, 10,

00:21:10

11.

00:21:10

>> Wow.

00:21:12

>> Um,

00:21:13

yeah, I got that from my cousins and my

00:21:15

brothers.

00:21:17

>> And yeah, I I wasn't really much of a

00:21:22

drinker. I I did start sort of drinking

00:21:26

um

00:21:29

when I come back from Aussie. So I got

00:21:31

the opportunity well mom sent me over to

00:21:34

Australia for for a holiday with my

00:21:36

uncle and you know that that was

00:21:39

probably a really good time.

00:21:41

>> What age was that?

00:21:42

>> I would have been 10 11. Yeah.

00:21:45

>> Somewhere around there. Sort of when I

00:21:47

was just starting to go off the rails,

00:21:49

you know. Mom sort of um sent me over to

00:21:52

Australia with my uncle for it was only

00:21:55

supposed to be for a holiday and I ended

00:21:57

up staying over there for a bit.

00:22:00

Um and yeah, my uncle, he was really

00:22:03

loving. Um you know, and my auntie

00:22:07

and yeah, they sort of just gave the

00:22:09

best that they could.

00:22:11

>> But yeah, I I struggled over there

00:22:14

without my mom and stuff like that like

00:22:17

Yeah.

00:22:20

>> So you came back to New Zealand

00:22:21

>> and then um is it that when you get

00:22:23

introduced to alcohol?

00:22:26

Uh, I I had a few drinks here and there,

00:22:29

but yeah, it sort of started taking it

00:22:31

on real hard when I when I got sent

00:22:33

home.

00:22:34

>> So, I got into some trouble over in over

00:22:36

in Australia at school.

00:22:39

>> Um, got suspended and and my uncle said,

00:22:42

"One more hiccup and you're going home."

00:22:45

And that was the end of the story. And

00:22:47

anyway, I had a bit of a hiccup at at

00:22:49

school and it was over a stupid hat, you

00:22:51

know, didn't want to take my hat off in

00:22:52

class because I couldn't read. All

00:22:54

right. You know, I was just playing up,

00:22:57

right?

00:22:57

>> Yeah.

00:22:58

>> And that that thing led to another and

00:23:01

um yeah,

00:23:03

Michael, oh, you're getting on a plane

00:23:05

and you're going home and I did the

00:23:06

runner. I ran away uh for a but I didn't

00:23:10

want to come home.

00:23:12

>> Um yeah, I really really enjoyed being

00:23:14

with my uncle and yeah, unfortunately I

00:23:17

stuffed that up. M

00:23:21

>> so June 27, 2010.

00:23:26

>> M

00:23:27

>> So there's a rugby game on All Blacks

00:23:28

Wales.

00:23:30

>> Yeah.

00:23:30

>> Yeah. Talk us through that day.

00:23:35

>> It was just a typical day to start off

00:23:38

with. Um

00:23:42

yeah,

00:23:44

I guess around lunchtime caught off the

00:23:46

boys. Um, and we were having a few

00:23:49

drinks.

00:23:50

There was no sort of plan to go into

00:23:52

town or anything like that at all. And

00:23:56

anyway, we met up with a few other boys

00:23:59

uh from our neighborhood in in Hamilton.

00:24:02

And yeah, there was one lot going to a

00:24:06

party that was was in in our hood and

00:24:09

the other boys were going to town. And

00:24:13

yeah, I had two choices to make whether

00:24:15

to go to the hood or go to town. And I

00:24:18

chose to go to town.

00:24:19

>> Um,

00:24:21

and yeah, that situation went south real

00:24:26

quick.

00:24:27

>> Um, you know, we weren't in town for

00:24:29

long, uh, before we were in a fight with

00:24:32

some Wales supporters.

00:24:35

um you know for no reason really know

00:24:38

they just yelled out of their taxi

00:24:42

stuff the all blacks or something like

00:24:44

that and that was enough to sort of

00:24:46

trigger it you know we were sort of

00:24:47

already intoxicated

00:24:49

uh we had had some um

00:24:53

some drugs that night so

00:24:55

>> what did you have

00:24:56

>> meth and and some some weed and stuff

00:24:59

like that

00:25:00

>> but yeah just heaps of alcohol um And

00:25:05

yeah, that sort of led to to to that

00:25:08

fight um with with the whale supporters.

00:25:12

And yeah, we needed an escape out of

00:25:14

town before we before we sort of got

00:25:16

caught. And there was a car there that

00:25:19

was there was idling and we thought that

00:25:21

cool, we'll take this car and we'll get

00:25:23

out of here. Um and yeah, the owner sort

00:25:27

of sort of come out and yeah, the

00:25:29

situation went went south. Um

00:25:34

>> yeah. So the owner of the car um 74 year

00:25:37

old man called uh Donald Stewart.

00:25:41

>> So didn't know him from a barite.

00:25:44

>> And there's you and how many of your

00:25:45

mates?

00:25:46

>> Uh there was three of us in in total.

00:25:49

Yeah.

00:25:49

>> Yeah. So three all the same age?

00:25:52

>> Uh two of one was 14, I was 15, and our

00:25:56

other co-offender was 18. M so even just

00:26:00

thinking about that you know a 14 and a

00:26:03

15year-old in town drinking

00:26:06

>> just sounds so wrong

00:26:11

>> so so Donald Stewart comes out of the is

00:26:13

it a toilet public toilet

00:26:15

>> yeah so he leaves his car outside goes

00:26:18

into the L comes out then what happens

00:26:21

>> um oh I was my part I played was trying

00:26:25

to steal the car

00:26:27

>> so I was trying to steal of the car and

00:26:30

yeah, my co-offender

00:26:33

um I guess punched him and yeah, that

00:26:37

was sort of sort of it. Um we just

00:26:40

thought that he had knocked him out and

00:26:43

we took off in in in his car

00:26:47

>> and and it wasn't until maybe 3 4 days

00:26:50

later

00:26:52

um that we realized that the guy had

00:26:56

actually died. M

00:26:57

>> how did how did you hear that or find

00:26:58

out?

00:26:59

>> Um I seen it actually on the front page

00:27:02

of the newspaper

00:27:04

>> right

00:27:04

>> of the white times um that my mom was

00:27:08

reading.

00:27:09

>> All right.

00:27:10

>> So she was what do you So yes so so um

00:27:15

yes. So so you take the car at that

00:27:17

point. Are you guys laughing and joking

00:27:19

like it's uh

00:27:20

>> well the guy who king hit him he was

00:27:22

just so intoxicated he was in the back.

00:27:25

He went to sleep. He He was gone.

00:27:28

>> Um we were pretty drunk, but yeah, we

00:27:32

got out of town.

00:27:33

>> But But at that point, you like you're

00:27:35

not worried or anything. You're just

00:27:36

like sick. We got a car. We got a ride

00:27:38

home.

00:27:39

>> We We got away from town.

00:27:40

>> Yeah.

00:27:41

>> Yeah. So there was no sort of, you know,

00:27:44

we weren't running from nothing. There

00:27:46

was no worries about anything else. Just

00:27:48

we've got the stolen car, which for for

00:27:51

us was a daily daily thing, you know.

00:27:55

Um, yeah. So,

00:27:58

>> so then you Yeah. you go home, carry on

00:28:00

with life, and then your mom's reading

00:28:02

the paper. What What is What does that

00:28:05

feel like at that moment? Are you like,

00:28:06

"Oh, fuck."

00:28:07

>> I didn't even tell anyone.

00:28:09

>> Right.

00:28:09

>> I never say anything.

00:28:11

>> So, my mom was sitting at the bus stop

00:28:14

and just out from our house. Yeah. Yeah,

00:28:17

she had the newspaper in her hand and

00:28:19

she was reading the way and I just seen

00:28:21

the front um cover and yeah, it was the

00:28:25

car.

00:28:26

>> It was the car actually.

00:28:28

>> Oh, oh, you couldn't even read the story

00:28:29

if you wanted to at that point.

00:28:31

>> So, it was just the car that was on the

00:28:33

front and I was like, "What the hell?"

00:28:35

And Yeah. Um

00:28:42

Yeah.

00:28:44

And then um

00:28:46

you you talk to your mates about it,

00:28:48

your mates that you're in town with.

00:28:49

You're like, "Fuck, we're in we're in

00:28:51

the [ __ ] here, boys."

00:28:52

>> Yeah. Caught up with this, bro. Have you

00:28:54

heard? And no. What? And it was actually

00:28:59

that day we all got pulled up.

00:29:03

>> You at that point, are you thinking,

00:29:04

"I'm not I'm not going to be in too much

00:29:07

trouble or are you like, [ __ ] we're all

00:29:10

we're all screwed here."

00:29:12

>> You know what I mean? cuz you didn't.

00:29:13

>> No, I didn't really think much of it. I

00:29:15

just thought, "Oh, we're done for

00:29:18

stealing a car."

00:29:19

>> Like we were young and didn't really

00:29:23

think too much about things

00:29:26

>> and yeah, I just thought we'll just get

00:29:28

a slap on the hand for for stealing

00:29:30

another car. Um, but no, it was it was a

00:29:34

lot bigger than that. got taken in and

00:29:36

sort of went into the interrogation sort

00:29:38

of uh setting and it all just started

00:29:42

like we're taking

00:29:45

bloody samples out of your fingernails

00:29:47

and taking your hair follicles and you

00:29:50

know it was crazy.

00:29:53

>> Um all your clothes got to come off.

00:29:55

They've got to go into a bag and you've

00:29:57

got to go into these clothes so that

00:29:59

we've got evidence and and whatnot. And

00:30:01

it sort of just Yeah, it was probably

00:30:06

the most daunting experience

00:30:11

>> to sort of think that you were just

00:30:14

somebody walking on the street and now

00:30:15

you're getting questioned for for

00:30:17

murder.

00:30:20

>> Yeah. When when did you Yeah. When was

00:30:22

the moment you realized the seriousness

00:30:24

of it or you you learned like that you

00:30:26

were going to be charged with

00:30:28

manslaughter?

00:30:29

Um, from the moment I was walking on

00:30:32

that street and a police officer pulled

00:30:34

up right next to me and said, "You're

00:30:35

under arrest for the murder of Don."

00:30:37

Yeah.

00:30:40

>> That very moment. So,

00:30:44

you know,

00:30:45

>> what that feel like? Like your world was

00:30:46

closing in?

00:30:47

>> Oh, I just felt like it was all over. My

00:30:50

whole life was that's it. It's over.

00:30:53

Um and yeah, got taken straight to the

00:30:58

to the police station in Watau and um

00:31:02

yeah, the questioning started straight

00:31:03

away as soon as we got there.

00:31:08

>> And then um you do you get um bailed or

00:31:12

anything or you go straight to juvie?

00:31:14

>> Um

00:31:16

shucks. I think the whole questioning

00:31:19

part took like a whole day to be honest.

00:31:21

Um yeah, they're trying to squeeze

00:31:24

information out of us and being that

00:31:27

young um didn't really want to talk

00:31:30

about stuff

00:31:31

>> and didn't want to, you know, sort of

00:31:34

throw anyone else under the table or

00:31:35

anything like that.

00:31:37

>> But yeah, I think from there I got

00:31:41

handcuffed and taken straight to juvie.

00:31:43

Yeah.

00:31:44

>> What's that like?

00:31:45

>> Um that process was pretty daunting too.

00:31:48

>> How so? Uh just, you know, going through

00:31:52

the strip searching process and stuff

00:31:54

like that where you got to take off all

00:31:57

your clothes, lift your nuts and all

00:31:58

that sort of stuff and squat down, cough

00:32:01

is quite um

00:32:04

shucks, how can you put it?

00:32:06

>> It can be quite

00:32:08

>> demoralizing, I guess.

00:32:10

>> Yeah.

00:32:12

>> And did you

00:32:14

at this particular moment in time, did

00:32:15

you did you feel like a sense of

00:32:16

injustice like this is [ __ ] Like I

00:32:19

didn't even, you know, speak. Yeah,

00:32:21

>> for sure. Um

00:32:26

>> Yeah, cuz I was like, well, I didn't

00:32:29

kill nobody. I didn't do that. But

00:32:33

>> um my

00:32:36

I guess now I I sort of see it

00:32:38

different. you know, I I take full

00:32:39

responsibility for for the role that I

00:32:42

played because there is another family

00:32:44

involved and you know, um

00:32:48

yeah.

00:32:51

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're completely

00:32:53

different person now. If you were still

00:32:54

the same person, we probably wouldn't be

00:32:56

sitting down having this conversation

00:32:57

today.

00:32:58

>> Um but yeah, that's part of the um

00:33:01

inspiring bit of your story, I guess. Um

00:33:03

just the transformation and the change.

00:33:05

>> Yeah.

00:33:06

>> Um we'll go through all that. Yeah. So

00:33:07

you spent a year on remand in the

00:33:10

juvenile detention center.

00:33:11

>> Yeah, I think it was just over a year uh

00:33:14

that I was on remand and then I went up

00:33:17

uh so I was charged with with murder

00:33:20

then. Um

00:33:22

and yeah, sitting on remand waiting to

00:33:25

go to court and

00:33:28

anyway during that time I actually got

00:33:31

an opportunity to um to seek bail. Uh,

00:33:36

so I was able to get out on electronic

00:33:38

bail,

00:33:38

>> uh, which I, yeah, I I ended up getting

00:33:42

it, so I was quite stoked with that. So

00:33:44

I could go home, uh, for for a little

00:33:46

period there. And, um,

00:33:50

yeah, dumb choices again by myself. Uh,

00:33:54

cut it off. I cut the bracelet off and

00:33:56

went on the run for for a few months.

00:33:59

Um,

00:34:01

done a whole another range of dumb

00:34:03

stuff. Uh and then yeah, got caught and

00:34:06

went straight back inside.

00:34:08

And

00:34:10

yeah, when I finally went up to went up

00:34:13

for um my my court hearing and

00:34:19

I could there was two options on on the

00:34:21

table. I could go to trial and and try

00:34:25

and beat the case, which is what I

00:34:26

wanted to do. Um, or I could take the

00:34:32

manslaughter charge, which was the

00:34:33

lesser charge, and you get whatever was

00:34:38

going to come with that.

00:34:39

>> But had I lost um the trial, I would be

00:34:43

looking at life in prison.

00:34:44

>> Oh, sort of like a plea deal.

00:34:46

>> Yeah.

00:34:46

>> Right. Uh so

00:34:49

I sort of weighed things up and you know

00:34:52

I say well

00:34:54

I I didn't touch him. So I I felt that I

00:34:57

I had I had some sort of um

00:35:01

case but my heart was telling me I

00:35:04

didn't want to put the family through

00:35:05

anymore.

00:35:06

>> I didn't want them to go through

00:35:08

anymore. I didn't need to go through a

00:35:09

trial um because then that family has to

00:35:13

deal with more you know. So on the day I

00:35:17

was just like, "Nah, I I'll take the

00:35:20

deal. Get this over and done with." And

00:35:23

yeah,

00:35:26

>> where did that come from?

00:35:28

That's a That's a good heart

00:35:30

>> or a good um like a glimpse of a good

00:35:32

moral compass.

00:35:34

>> You know, there's there's a there's a

00:35:37

good guy in there

00:35:38

>> in that kid.

00:35:39

>> Oh, I definitely think that that did

00:35:41

come from my mom. M she did install some

00:35:44

some good qualities in us and and the

00:35:48

loving part was Yeah. And yeah, I think

00:35:52

that did come from my mom.

00:35:55

>> Yeah. How how was this whole period for

00:35:56

for her for your mom?

00:35:58

>> You know what? I don't actually know. Um

00:36:01

to be honest,

00:36:03

I could only imagine that it was it was

00:36:05

hell.

00:36:07

I could only imagine myself with my own

00:36:10

kids. Imagine if one of my daughters was

00:36:13

going out with this,

00:36:14

>> how would I feel, you know,

00:36:16

>> um in that whole process as a parent?

00:36:22

>> So, yeah, I sort of

00:36:26

I regret going out that night with with

00:36:28

those guys. Um

00:36:30

>> Oh, mate, I've got no doubt that you've

00:36:32

replayed it in your mind a million

00:36:34

times.

00:36:34

>> Yeah, for sure.

00:36:35

>> A million times about what you what you

00:36:36

could have done, what you should have

00:36:37

done.

00:36:38

>> Yeah. Um,

00:36:40

>> you can't though. You can't change the

00:36:41

past.

00:36:41

>> No, I can't. And as much times as I want

00:36:44

to think, father, there was so much that

00:36:46

I could have done that night to stop

00:36:48

this or that I could have helped or all

00:36:51

those sort of things, but you know, this

00:36:54

this is the the cards that we dealt. Um,

00:36:58

and yeah, this the consequences we had

00:37:01

to deal with them

00:37:03

>> on our own. you know, I couldn't control

00:37:06

what my co-offenders were doing.

00:37:09

Couldn't control any of that stuff.

00:37:11

>> What they did was what they did and I

00:37:13

was there

00:37:14

>> and I put myself in that situation.

00:37:16

>> Yeah.

00:37:16

>> I showed up that night.

00:37:19

>> So, you get sentenced to uh 5 and a half

00:37:21

years for manslaughter and then um that

00:37:24

that's when you get moved from um the

00:37:26

juvenile detention center to

00:37:28

>> Widia prison.

00:37:29

>> Wa prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And adults

00:37:31

jail. So, you're how old? Uh, I was 15,

00:37:35

16.

00:37:36

>> Right. How old do you have to be to go

00:37:37

to an adult jail?

00:37:39

>> Oh, once you got those charges, you can

00:37:41

go straight in there. As soon as you get

00:37:43

sentenced,

00:37:44

>> but you I mean, you're still essentially

00:37:46

a kid. Are you in like segregation or

00:37:48

>> um population or

00:37:50

>> they had a youth wing at at Wia at that

00:37:53

at that time? Um, they don't anymore.

00:37:56

Um, but once you're sort of sentenced,

00:38:02

you can go straight into mainstream

00:38:05

prison or segregation. Uh, it's it's

00:38:08

your choice. Um, but I went to youth

00:38:12

prison in Wedia until I turned 18. The

00:38:15

day I turned 18, I went um I went up to

00:38:19

main prison and spent a bit of time

00:38:22

there before I went down to the camp.

00:38:24

So,

00:38:25

>> yeah.

00:38:27

What's that like going um Yeah. Is it

00:38:30

terrifying going?

00:38:31

>> Oh, for sure. Just going to jail is

00:38:33

quite terrifying. You know, uh you're

00:38:35

away from your family. You're away from

00:38:37

the norm of what you know. And yeah,

00:38:41

you're pretty much stuck in this

00:38:43

>> in this concrete jungle with all these

00:38:47

I don't know other inmates that have

00:38:50

done bad things, you know. M um and

00:38:53

yeah, it was quite

00:38:56

how how can I put it? Um not intimidated

00:38:59

cuz I I seen a lot myself. So

00:39:02

>> So you weren't scared or anything?

00:39:03

>> No, I wasn't scared. Um I think I just

00:39:07

felt lonely, eh? Um yeah.

00:39:10

>> Yeah, I was going to ask about that. Um

00:39:14

must just feel like a huge sense of

00:39:15

homesickness. Yeah, homesickness. This

00:39:17

is something you associate with kids.

00:39:19

But

00:39:20

>> I don't know like Yeah. You just can't

00:39:22

have any access to your family or

00:39:24

>> No, like you can't just walk down the

00:39:26

road anymore.

00:39:27

>> Can't go to the park.

00:39:29

>> You can't go see your mates. Can't just

00:39:30

go to the shop and go grab your ice

00:39:32

cream or whatever. Um yeah, you're stuck

00:39:34

in this routine now for however long

00:39:37

that you're in there. And

00:39:40

yeah, so when I when I

00:39:44

when I turned 18, I was given an option.

00:39:47

You go to segregation or SEGS or you go

00:39:50

to mainstream. And it was there was no

00:39:54

other option. It was just mainstream.

00:39:56

>> And um

00:39:58

>> how's that? Is it a brutal place? All me

00:40:01

and probably most people listening to

00:40:03

this or watching this think about jail

00:40:04

is what you see on TV or movies. Um,

00:40:08

oh, I think if you want to, you can just

00:40:12

have a cruisy cruisy lag, but there's

00:40:14

trouble everywhere, eh? Uh, everywhere

00:40:16

in in jail,

00:40:19

people are hustling, people are up to

00:40:22

whatever that they're doing.

00:40:23

>> Um, so yeah, you're sort of exposed to

00:40:26

that and at the age of 15, 16, you're

00:40:30

soaking it all in,

00:40:32

>> you know, you're like a little sponge.

00:40:34

>> It's like a university for band.

00:40:36

just soaking all that information in,

00:40:39

>> taking it all on board.

00:40:41

>> And you know what's crazy is like you

00:40:44

think you go to jail to be

00:40:46

rehabilitated. So when you get out of

00:40:48

jail, you become a better person, but in

00:40:52

fact it's not the case at all.

00:40:54

>> You come out in a way worse uh condition

00:40:58

than what you went in, you know. So

00:41:00

you've say you've only gone in for steal

00:41:03

and the lollipop. You're soon going to

00:41:04

learn how to cook meth and everything

00:41:06

else

00:41:07

>> while you're in there

00:41:09

>> and you're going to make so much

00:41:10

networks and connections

00:41:13

um you know with the people that you

00:41:15

want to

00:41:19

>> how was your mental health during um

00:41:21

your incarceration? Did you did you ever

00:41:23

consider taking your own life? Like I'm

00:41:24

I'm thinking 15 years old, you know, you

00:41:28

get sentenced to, you know, a stint of 5

00:41:30

years.

00:41:32

>> It's so that seems like such a long

00:41:35

period of time.

00:41:36

>> Yeah. My mental health was gone and oh,

00:41:40

I was pretty I was in a pretty bad

00:41:41

space. Um I tried committing suicide

00:41:45

maybe

00:41:49

a handful of times, sorry, while I was

00:41:51

in inside. Um,

00:41:54

and one of them was the night that I got

00:41:56

sentenced.

00:41:57

>> M, the night I got sentenced to 5 and

00:41:59

1/2 years,

00:42:01

>> I went back to myself and I was going to

00:42:02

top myself that night.

00:42:05

>> And yeah, I just thought the world was

00:42:09

going to be a better place without me,

00:42:11

you know.

00:42:12

>> Um, yeah.

00:42:14

>> Well, thanks for sharing that. M and on

00:42:17

a few other other occasions um yeah I

00:42:22

really considered it and tried to do it

00:42:25

on a few other occasions and never

00:42:28

succeeded

00:42:35

you. What's prison life like?

00:42:37

Like did you see some things that you

00:42:40

just never unsee

00:42:43

violence and stuff? Yep.

00:42:46

There is a few situations that I've seen

00:42:48

I pro probably won't share them.

00:42:51

>> Okay.

00:42:51

>> They're pretty brutal. Um

00:42:54

and yeah, but the routine of jail life

00:42:59

every day is the same.

00:43:01

>> What is it? What's a day?

00:43:03

>> So, you'll get up in the morning. Um

00:43:05

>> what time?

00:43:06

>> Depends what unit you're in. Some units

00:43:09

uh get to get up and say 7 8:00 in the

00:43:12

morning. they'll get unlocked and then

00:43:14

know some of them be unlocked until well

00:43:17

now nowadays some of them are out until

00:43:20

7 8:00 at night, you know.

00:43:22

>> Um but back then it was 8:00 unlock and

00:43:27

you're locked up from 11:00

00:43:30

in the morning through to 1:00 in the

00:43:32

afternoon and you're out for another

00:43:33

couple hours and doors were locked at

00:43:36

4:00. Um, and then in the time that

00:43:40

you're out of of your cell, you have to

00:43:43

do courses and all that sort of stuff,

00:43:45

uh, while you're in there. And then

00:43:48

you're locked up for lunch. Um, and then

00:43:51

back in your back out for a couple

00:43:53

hours, wreck time,

00:43:56

gym, yeah, all that sort of stuff. And

00:43:58

then lock back up uh for the rest of the

00:44:00

day until the next morning.

00:44:03

>> And that was pretty much our routine for

00:44:06

>> Yeah. for a while uh until the prisons

00:44:09

sort of opened up uh the doors and

00:44:12

pretty much done free range for for all

00:44:14

of us

00:44:15

>> from 8 to 8.

00:44:18

>> Was was there anything about it that you

00:44:20

liked? I I had um you know the UFC

00:44:22

fighter Mark Hunt.

00:44:23

>> Yeah.

00:44:23

>> Yeah. I had um the super sam on on the

00:44:25

podcast and he um when he was younger he

00:44:28

he did some time I think he was in Weta

00:44:31

as well for for violence

00:44:32

>> and he actually he loved the structure

00:44:35

and and the discipline aspect of it

00:44:37

>> he sort of thrived in there

00:44:39

>> wouldn't want to go back he said

00:44:42

>> but um

00:44:42

>> neither

00:44:45

>> um

00:44:46

I f what did I like about that I think

00:44:50

um what I did actually quite like about

00:44:53

it was the

00:44:55

the ingenuity and also the

00:45:00

like far

00:45:03

like some of the people that are in

00:45:04

there are so talented that's crazy.

00:45:07

>> Like they could be multi-millionaires

00:45:09

had they put their skills in the right

00:45:11

place. Like some of the um some of the

00:45:15

guys in there with their like just for

00:45:18

example selling drugs, it's it's a big

00:45:21

deal. like it's not just like anything

00:45:24

like you've got a whole business sort of

00:45:27

to uphold, you know, and you've got to

00:45:29

distribute all this product. Um, and if

00:45:33

you think about it, the same skills that

00:45:35

are used for that, you know, is the same

00:45:38

skills that we use for selling clothes

00:45:39

and stuff like that. So,

00:45:41

>> you know, had they just transferred that

00:45:44

skill to something positive, they they

00:45:47

would probably be walking millionaires,

00:45:49

you know.

00:45:49

>> Yeah. And the funny thing is as a legit

00:45:51

entrepreneur, you can make way more

00:45:53

money than what you can make illegally.

00:45:54

>> Yeah, for sure.

00:45:55

>> Oh yeah. And you can go buy a car

00:45:57

without um without any sort of question.

00:46:00

So

00:46:01

>> yeah. Yeah.

00:46:02

>> Um

00:46:04

did were you did you have your own cell

00:46:06

or were you like sharing with someone

00:46:07

else?

00:46:08

>> Uh I was sharing for a bit there. And

00:46:11

>> is it preferable? Is it is it is it like

00:46:13

I love my personal space. I couldn't

00:46:15

imagine someone having a dump in front

00:46:17

of me or vice versa. Um, is it is it do

00:46:21

people like being in a cellar with

00:46:22

another person because it gets lonely on

00:46:23

your own or what's that?

00:46:25

>> Oh, you some places you just got no

00:46:27

choice?

00:46:28

>> Yeah.

00:46:28

>> You know, so um Yeah. Like Spring Hill

00:46:31

for example, which is which is where my

00:46:34

last uh lag was was in Spring Hill and

00:46:38

those were all double uh double cells,

00:46:40

you know, so you'll sell it up with

00:46:42

somebody else. Um, but yeah, I prefer to

00:46:45

have my own cell, my own personal space,

00:46:48

>> and but hey, sometimes it was actually

00:46:51

good having a salemate, someone who you

00:46:53

could play cards with and sort of

00:46:55

bounce, I don't know,

00:46:57

>> stories off and stuff like that. And

00:46:59

yeah,

00:46:59

>> it's very small space to have two grown

00:47:02

men though, isn't it?

00:47:02

>> Yeah, it is. Um, actually Oakland wasn't

00:47:06

too bad to be honest.

00:47:08

It was a lot bigger than than Witti.

00:47:10

>> Yeah. But what's the um the biggest sort

00:47:12

of misconception about prison? Like you

00:47:14

hear people talking on like talkback or

00:47:16

whatever saying it's like a fivestar

00:47:17

hotel, you know, under floor heating and

00:47:21

you know all that sort of rhetoric.

00:47:23

>> Oh, it was nothing like that in Wii. I

00:47:26

could tell they had this heated bar and

00:47:29

that was it. Uh that's all they heated

00:47:31

up your cell.

00:47:32

>> Um and that did nothing during winter,

00:47:35

>> right? And you don't get extra blankets

00:47:38

or anything like that because of the

00:47:39

risk of uh suicide and and things like

00:47:42

that, you know. So, you don't you didn't

00:47:45

get extra blankets or extra sheets or

00:47:48

anything like that. You you just had to

00:47:50

deal with the cold by putting on maybe

00:47:53

extra set of pants or something like

00:47:55

that. So,

00:47:56

>> yeah, Wedia sort of um in between

00:48:00

Hamilton and the central north island

00:48:04

road sort of area. It's over by Telu.

00:48:06

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:08

>> [ __ ] it be cold there in winter.

00:48:09

>> It's freezing.

00:48:10

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:12

>> What What about um correction staff?

00:48:13

Like um at the time we're recording this

00:48:15

there's a big ad campaign that's on TV

00:48:17

and on YouTube all the time and um they

00:48:20

talk about they want to make a

00:48:21

difference in your experience and most

00:48:22

of the most the staff in the New Zealand

00:48:24

correction system good or there's some

00:48:26

[ __ ]

00:48:27

>> Oh, there's [ __ ] everywhere. It

00:48:29

doesn't matter whether you're in

00:48:30

corrections or or not. There's there's

00:48:32

[ __ ] just walking on the street.

00:48:35

>> Um but you know, most of the the screws

00:48:39

or the corrections officers that I dealt

00:48:41

with, they were they were pretty good.

00:48:43

>> They had um they had good hearts. Hey,

00:48:45

they want

00:48:46

>> they want the best for for the guys.

00:48:49

Hey, that they want to see them get out

00:48:51

>> and they don't want to see them come

00:48:52

back is is a lot of their their their

00:48:57

mahi, you know,

00:48:58

>> and

00:49:00

um

00:49:01

yeah, I think they get a lot of slack

00:49:04

for for the work that they do,

00:49:06

>> but hey, they're just trying to put Kai

00:49:08

on the table for their for their faro

00:49:10

just like everyone else.

00:49:12

>> But, you know, I've dealt with a with a

00:49:15

few corrections officers since I've been

00:49:17

out. Um, and my wife and I, we were

00:49:20

going in to Wikidia prison, uh, where I

00:49:23

started my farming journey and

00:49:27

we were sort of just sharing our journey

00:49:28

of where we are sort of now, you know,

00:49:30

with some of the guys that are on the

00:49:33

farming

00:49:34

um, program in there

00:49:36

>> and yeah, those corrections officers

00:49:38

really want the best.

00:49:41

>> Um, yeah.

00:49:44

>> Yeah. So, this is where the farming

00:49:45

journey started. Um,

00:49:48

Yeah. How explain that? Like a lot of

00:49:50

people be listening to this going, "What

00:49:52

do you mean farming journey in jail?"

00:49:54

>> Yeah. So um

00:49:57

in Weria there is there was three dairy

00:50:02

farms operating operating at that time

00:50:05

and I was in a unit that um ran the the

00:50:11

fencing of the of the dairy platform. Uh

00:50:15

so I got an opportunity to go out on the

00:50:17

on the farms and uh fix some of the

00:50:19

fences for for the cows and stuff like

00:50:22

that. And

00:50:23

>> so it's a farm in inside the the prison

00:50:26

perimeter fence or we are we used to low

00:50:29

security at this point?

00:50:30

>> Yeah. So you've got to be low security

00:50:33

uh in order to get out. Um so it it took

00:50:37

a it took a very long time. Maybe

00:50:39

>> no [ __ ] after you cut off the detention

00:50:41

anklet.

00:50:42

>> Yeah. So, my rock royal was pretty high

00:50:45

and in order to get it down, I needed to

00:50:47

do courses and and sort of keep my my

00:50:51

nose clean. Um,

00:50:53

>> what sort of courses were they any good?

00:50:55

>> You know what? Um, I think they would be

00:50:58

good if you want that help, you know, if

00:51:02

you actually want it. Um, there are some

00:51:05

good resources in some of those courses,

00:51:07

but hey, I was just doing it so I could

00:51:10

tick some boxes to get my ass out.

00:51:12

That's all I wanted to do those courses

00:51:15

for.

00:51:16

>> Um,

00:51:17

so I done I done heaps of courses while

00:51:19

I was in there and when I got out.

00:51:21

>> What like like anti violence and

00:51:23

>> um drug and alcohol uh yeah violence

00:51:28

>> um multi multif focus uh program. Uh

00:51:32

there was the mers disturbs and all that

00:51:34

sort of stuff. Um, yeah. So, those are

00:51:37

all sort of optional some of them. Some

00:51:40

of them you have to do.

00:51:43

>> So, you start farming because you think,

00:51:45

"Oh, this will be a good way to pass the

00:51:47

time, get some fresh air."

00:51:49

>> Yeah. So, I I took the opportunity cuz I

00:51:52

I was sick of staying myself.

00:51:55

>> So, yeah. Went out on the farm and I

00:51:58

started to learn a few skills and I

00:52:00

actually fell in love with the freedom.

00:52:03

M just the freedom of being out on the

00:52:06

land. Like I remember this one moment

00:52:09

like it got so a guy would come and he

00:52:13

wasn't an officer. He was just like a

00:52:15

manager um sort of like a contractor

00:52:18

into corrections who would take us out

00:52:20

and show us fencing. Anyway, he come and

00:52:23

picked us up in the morning and we'll

00:52:25

get ready and shoot out, go pick up our

00:52:28

gear and and go do some fencing. And I

00:52:31

remember this one day I just took off my

00:52:34

took off my gum boots and and that and I

00:52:37

just stood on the grass e and just that

00:52:40

that feeling of just freedom.

00:52:44

>> It just felt so good.

00:52:47

>> And yeah, I fell in love with with the

00:52:49

fennel that in that moment.

00:52:53

>> So when you're when you're farming

00:52:55

during your sentence, what what does the

00:52:56

day look like? you get up early for

00:52:58

milking or anything like you out there

00:52:59

before sunrise or no?

00:53:01

>> Um, so there is actually a milking crew

00:53:03

that that that'll do that. Yeah, they'll

00:53:06

be up there say 4:00 in the morning, go

00:53:08

milk the cows,

00:53:10

>> but with our crew, we would sort of just

00:53:13

pop into the dairy shed every now and

00:53:14

again and go milk a cow if we wanted to

00:53:18

and stuff like that. So that was the

00:53:20

first place I I actually put a set of

00:53:22

cups on on a cow was was at weria.

00:53:25

>> And

00:53:28

even though I was in the fencing crew,

00:53:30

we we always went to the dairy platforms

00:53:33

just to see um if there was sort of any

00:53:37

priority jobs that they needed done for

00:53:40

where their cows were going and stuff

00:53:41

like that. So we were really exposed to

00:53:44

to quite a few opportunities in there.

00:53:46

Tractor driving and you know we we had

00:53:49

free range once we were out on those

00:53:51

farms like you'll get given a quad you

00:53:54

have to go right to the other side of

00:53:56

the prison to do some stuff over there

00:53:58

and you know so it it wasn't like we had

00:54:01

an officer with us 24/7

00:54:03

>> uh while we were there. Um

00:54:05

>> it's a massive amount of trust e but as

00:54:07

you said before it's like earned trust.

00:54:08

Yeah, that's right. And and like it

00:54:11

takes a lot of work to get out on those

00:54:13

programs.

00:54:14

>> Some people just think that you just you

00:54:16

just get given them, but no, it took me

00:54:18

three three years in order to actually

00:54:21

get

00:54:22

>> out.

00:54:25

>> And and was it somewhere during this um

00:54:26

this farm stunt while you're

00:54:28

incarcerated that you think um this is

00:54:30

going to be the future for me? like um

00:54:33

did did like did you do some serious

00:54:34

like inner work?

00:54:36

>> Um

00:54:37

>> and so you were determined to change or

00:54:39

not at this point?

00:54:40

>> No.

00:54:41

>> No, I didn't know

00:54:44

what change was really. I was Yeah. I I

00:54:49

just wanted to get out of jail

00:54:50

>> and just make the time go faster.

00:54:52

>> Yeah.

00:54:52

>> Yeah.

00:54:53

>> Um you know, I didn't see farming as

00:54:56

anything then. Um, but I knew I was

00:54:59

learning some really good skills and

00:55:02

yeah, learned how to operate tractors

00:55:04

and and whatnot while I was in there.

00:55:06

Um,

00:55:08

again, we we had courses in there and I

00:55:12

struggled.

00:55:13

>> It was

00:55:14

>> cuz you still couldn't read or

00:55:15

>> Yeah. So, all the practical stuff I aced

00:55:18

but all the theory stuff was just like

00:55:21

>> Yeah.

00:55:21

>> Yeah. Well, why could you have got an

00:55:25

education in there?

00:55:26

>> For sure. Yeah. Why Why didn't you use

00:55:28

that time to read and write? You had

00:55:29

nothing else to do.

00:55:30

>> Um I don't know. I just to be honest, I

00:55:34

think I was

00:55:36

maybe too cool for it, you know?

00:55:38

>> I thought I was

00:55:39

>> just embarrassing.

00:55:40

>> Yeah.

00:55:40

>> Yeah.

00:55:41

>> Um yeah, I didn't want to tell anyone

00:55:44

that I couldn't read or write.

00:55:47

>> And yeah, I just didn't want to bear

00:55:49

that shame, I guess.

00:55:51

>> Yeah, it's understandable. So then um

00:55:54

2014 uh you get released after 4 years.

00:55:57

So you're how old at the time?

00:55:59

>> I was 20.

00:56:00

>> 20. [ __ ] You're still really young, eh,

00:56:02

man.

00:56:03

>> And um what do you get? You get $300 the

00:56:07

$300 when you leave?

00:56:08

>> Yeah.

00:56:09

>> 350 bucks.

00:56:10

>> Really? What do they base that on?

00:56:12

>> I don't know.

00:56:13

>> Is that money that you earned on the

00:56:14

farm or

00:56:15

>> I don't know. But

00:56:16

>> does everyone get it when they leave

00:56:17

jail?

00:56:18

>> Um it's it's definitely not from the

00:56:21

work that you do in there. Okay.

00:56:22

>> It's just the steps to freedom that you

00:56:24

that you receive once you get released

00:56:26

from jail.

00:56:27

>> And if you're a prisoner, if you're

00:56:33

if you smoke drugs, drink alcohol, all

00:56:35

that sort of stuff, you already know

00:56:36

where that $350 is going. It's

00:56:38

definitely not going on food. And yeah,

00:56:41

it's not going on a ride either. It's

00:56:43

probably going on either an ounce or a

00:56:47

bag or alcohol.

00:56:50

It's going on a good time.

00:56:52

Um, so yeah, it's just a a $350 ticket

00:56:56

back to jail

00:56:58

>> is how I see it.

00:56:59

>> So, what what's that day like when you

00:57:00

when you get released after being

00:57:02

incarcerated for 4 years? Who who's

00:57:04

there to pick you up?

00:57:05

>> Um, the day I got out and released, my

00:57:09

wife picked me up

00:57:11

>> and

00:57:11

>> Nikki, who's in the control room now.

00:57:13

>> Yeah.

00:57:13

>> Yeah. So, when did you start seeing her?

00:57:16

Um, long story short, uh, so I knew

00:57:21

Nikki for for a few years before we

00:57:23

started, um, actually seeing each other

00:57:26

and just become good, really good

00:57:28

friends.

00:57:29

>> Um, she was really supportive and yeah,

00:57:33

sort of developed from the from that.

00:57:35

Um, and so when when I did get up, yeah,

00:57:39

the the feelings just become even more,

00:57:42

>> you know. So,

00:57:45

>> have you had this discussion with it?

00:57:46

Like, what did she see in you

00:57:48

>> or if she's picking you up from jail?

00:57:50

Like, she know, you know, she knows she

00:57:52

knows everything about you.

00:57:55

>> Um,

00:57:55

>> was she just going through her bad boy

00:57:56

phase?

00:57:58

>> I don't know.

00:58:02

What did you see of me?

00:58:04

>> Um, she did she see

00:58:06

>> I don't know. Did she see potential?

00:58:07

Like, did did she like the Ben that's

00:58:10

sitting in front of me now? Did she

00:58:12

>> I believe so. I believe so, Dom.

00:58:14

>> She believed in you even before you

00:58:16

believed in yourself.

00:58:17

>> That's right. Um she seen something that

00:58:19

I did not.

00:58:21

>> And um it's

00:58:26

I've got Iowa to her. She she deserves

00:58:28

all the praise and all the credit of

00:58:30

where we are today.

00:58:32

So a lot of the the mahi and and behind

00:58:35

the scenes is my wife. M she's really

00:58:40

done a lot to get us or get me in the

00:58:44

space that I am now, you know. So

00:58:47

>> yeah,

00:58:47

>> that's awesome.

00:58:49

>> So she picks you up. What what do you

00:58:50

do? You go to McDonald's, KFC, like what

00:58:52

what's the

00:58:54

like like what do you what do you in

00:58:56

that four years like what do you what do

00:58:57

you fantasize about what you're going to

00:58:59

do when you get out?

00:59:00

>> Fantasize

00:59:02

no. Um, we

00:59:04

>> I I love Coke Zero, so I'd be just

00:59:07

craving that.

00:59:09

>> Um,

00:59:10

Shak, she picked me up and I had a time

00:59:14

limit to be at the address that I needed

00:59:17

to be at, which was pretty much the time

00:59:21

from the prison to the address. So, we

00:59:24

we couldn't we couldn't stop at all.

00:59:26

>> Okay.

00:59:27

>> Um, and funny story, funny story. Um, so

00:59:31

we left Waia, drove home, and we were

00:59:36

turning into our driveway and what was

00:59:39

sitting in my driver was a police

00:59:40

officer, a police car, and I was like,

00:59:44

"Oh, we were like 2 minutes late, bro. 2

00:59:48

minutes late on this on arriving." So we

00:59:51

we got caught up in a bit of traffic. So

00:59:55

2 minutes late and the cop was here. I

00:59:58

was like, "Oh, [ __ ] I'm going back to

01:00:00

jail.

01:00:01

Oh no, I'm going back to jail already. I

01:00:05

just got out like 1 hour ago. Um anyway,

01:00:09

the cop wasn't even there for me. He

01:00:11

just pulled over.

01:00:12

>> Oh, so so yeah, there's an address that

01:00:15

you get bailed to. It has to be an

01:00:16

approved address and then strict bail

01:00:19

conditions like no drugs, no alcohol.

01:00:21

Yeah, no drugs, no alcohol, curfew,

01:00:24

um

01:00:25

no association with uh co-offenders,

01:00:29

and you know, couldn't see the the

01:00:32

victim's family, all that sort of stuff.

01:00:34

>> Um which is pretty it's the basics, you

01:00:38

know, sort of when you get released on

01:00:40

on parole.

01:00:42

>> And

01:00:44

yeah, so I I got home in time. Didn't

01:00:47

get to stop for Mackers or anything like

01:00:49

that. Um, but I think our first feed

01:00:53

that night was was KFC,

01:00:55

which Yeah, I loved it cuz if you if

01:00:59

you've been locked up for for so many

01:01:01

years over that time, chicken is the

01:01:04

best feed when you're in jail. So, every

01:01:07

Friday night, chicken. So,

01:01:10

>> in jail?

01:01:11

>> Yeah.

01:01:11

>> Really?

01:01:12

>> So, chicken, some roast veggies,

01:01:15

um, some peas, and some gravy. M there

01:01:19

was every Oh, no. Every Thursday night,

01:01:21

sorry. Friday night was a jandle.

01:01:24

>> A jandle?

01:01:25

>> Yeah. A fish jandle.

01:01:27

>> What's that?

01:01:29

>> So, it's one of those hokey fish.

01:01:33

>> Like a fish fillet.

01:01:34

>> Yeah.

01:01:34

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:35

>> And it's just steamed and like you can

01:01:37

you can whack people with it, bro. Like

01:01:40

those are just jandles, eh?

01:01:44

So,

01:01:45

>> and then um um you you slip up and you

01:01:47

get go back to jail and you get

01:01:49

recalled.

01:01:50

>> Yes, I did get record. Um

01:01:53

so, yeah.

01:01:57

>> What was that for?

01:01:59

>> Um violent.

01:02:02

>> Violent.

01:02:04

Oh,

01:02:06

as much as I wanted to

01:02:09

as much as I wanted to change when I got

01:02:11

out like Yeah. It just wasn't wasn't it

01:02:15

got out and probably become worse.

01:02:18

>> And

01:02:19

>> who who who are you violent against?

01:02:22

>> Um

01:02:24

against my wife.

01:02:26

>> Yeah. So you know seeing domestic

01:02:29

violence growing up like

01:02:33

not saying that it was normal but

01:02:36

yeah that's sort of what I was exposed

01:02:37

to. And

01:02:40

um I remember telling myself I never

01:02:43

ever want to be like that and I become

01:02:45

that and probably even worse to be

01:02:48

honest.

01:02:50

Uh so yeah, everyone that was sort of

01:02:53

close to me I was I hurt.

01:02:56

>> Yeah.

01:02:58

>> Why is she still here?

01:03:01

>> That's a good question.

01:03:03

But

01:03:05

yeah, like like before, I think she just

01:03:07

sees the potential um and sees the

01:03:10

greater

01:03:11

>> in me that

01:03:12

>> yeah, that no one else can see.

01:03:15

>> And you know, I didn't even with the

01:03:18

awards and stuff like that.

01:03:20

>> Um I didn't see myself there.

01:03:23

>> I didn't even see myself uh in that

01:03:25

atmosphere,

01:03:26

>> let alone winning it.

01:03:28

>> Yeah. And yeah, she she really drove me

01:03:31

to, you know, step out and give it a

01:03:34

crack.

01:03:37

>> So, you you go back to jail.

01:03:39

>> Um,

01:03:40

>> you must be feeling like [ __ ] at this

01:03:42

point, eh? Like, oh, like like you've

01:03:44

let yourself down, you've let Nikki

01:03:45

down, you've [ __ ] up.

01:03:48

>> That was probably rock bottom was their

01:03:50

last stint.

01:03:51

>> Yeah. Um, so I went back to jail and

01:03:56

I finally got a hold of of my wife and

01:03:59

the phone call went like this. Me and

01:04:02

the kids are going to Australia.

01:04:05

Um,

01:04:06

so before you get out, we'll be gone.

01:04:09

You know, that was the conversation,

01:04:11

>> right? Cuz you would be unable to

01:04:13

travel. No.

01:04:13

>> So you couldn't

01:04:14

>> I couldn't go to Australia

01:04:16

>> and I've applied just recently and I'm

01:04:19

still getting denied. M

01:04:21

>> you know because of my charges. But

01:04:24

yeah, her and the kids were going to go

01:04:25

to Aussie and that was probably where I

01:04:28

hit rock bottom. Not even being in jail

01:04:31

was rock bottom for me.

01:04:32

>> Uh was hearing that from from my wife

01:04:35

was she was taking my kids away and

01:04:39

>> and there's nothing you can do about it.

01:04:40

>> And there's nothing I could do about it.

01:04:42

But thank thankfully to well my wife was

01:04:47

staying and to my two older girls who um

01:04:51

cried, you know, they they really

01:04:55

wanted us to work things out

01:04:58

>> and wanted to,

01:05:01

you know, sort of

01:05:03

um wanted mom to stay with me. So

01:05:06

>> yeah.

01:05:06

>> So is is that sort of how she

01:05:10

>> Yeah. Was it the kids that sort of

01:05:11

convinced you to stay?

01:05:12

>> And did you did you make a like a big

01:05:14

growling promise that you're going to

01:05:16

change this time? And

01:05:17

>> Yeah.

01:05:18

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:05:19

>> Um,

01:05:19

>> and did you did you mean it? Did you

01:05:21

think you were able to?

01:05:23

>> I did mean it. Um, I didn't know how I

01:05:26

was going to do it and I didn't know

01:05:30

where I was going to get the support to

01:05:32

to it

01:05:33

>> cuz I I don't know if it's pride or or

01:05:36

what, but I didn't know how to ask for

01:05:39

help. Yeah. I couldn't ask anybody for

01:05:42

help. Yeah.

01:05:43

>> So, yeah. And I remember saying to to my

01:05:49

wife like this time for real like I want

01:05:52

to marry you.

01:05:54

Long story. Like the day we actually got

01:05:56

the day I got out of jail, we went

01:05:58

straight to the courthouse and got

01:06:00

married.

01:06:02

>> Pretty romantic. Um

01:06:04

>> a nice visit to court.

01:06:05

>> Yeah. So went to the courthouse and

01:06:09

yeah, we went through that process. Um,

01:06:12

and you know, I I would have loved to

01:06:15

have believed that that would have been

01:06:16

the end of all the [ __ ]

01:06:19

>> But it's not true. E

01:06:23

>> like the drugs,

01:06:24

>> the alcohol,

01:06:26

>> the all of that sort of stuff was still

01:06:30

easily accessible. Especially out here,

01:06:33

you just walk down the road and you can

01:06:35

find somebody with drugs and there's a

01:06:37

liquor store on every single corner.

01:06:39

>> Um, and

01:06:40

>> I suppose it's hard when that's your

01:06:42

when that's your ecosystem, like that's

01:06:43

that's all your friends and your faro

01:06:45

and everything you know. What? So, how

01:06:48

do you escape it?

01:06:49

>> F. Do you just have to cut tie with all

01:06:52

your

01:06:53

>> Yeah. As hard as as hard as it is, you

01:06:57

have to separate yourself

01:06:58

>> until you're I guess strong enough um to

01:07:02

say no.

01:07:03

>> Hey, like especially with meth and stuff

01:07:06

like that.

01:07:07

>> And all my bros I could get it

01:07:11

anytime, you know, and

01:07:13

>> so I had to cut those ties in order to

01:07:15

get off the ship.

01:07:16

>> Um

01:07:18

and yeah.

01:07:21

So, so, so for you, for your story,

01:07:24

we're at the point now where your

01:07:26

sentence is done, you've done the crime.

01:07:28

Uh, you've done the you've done the

01:07:30

crime, you did the time. Yeah.

01:07:31

>> And then now you're allowed to get on

01:07:32

with your life. Um, but I suppose for um

01:07:36

for for the victim's family, Donald

01:07:37

Stewart, like it's a it's a life

01:07:39

sentence in a way. They have to live

01:07:40

with it forever. Like Yeah. Like Yeah.

01:07:44

Yeah. How do you reflect on that?

01:07:46

>> You know, I I think about their family

01:07:48

all the time. Yeah,

01:07:50

>> you know, prior to even getting getting

01:07:52

into the exposure side of things, um

01:07:56

like entering the awards and before I

01:07:59

even done all that stuff, um I really

01:08:03

wanted to I guess

01:08:07

seek forgiveness. Um, and you know, just

01:08:12

some sort of

01:08:15

it's okay, you know, for for you to move

01:08:18

on with your life, so to speak.

01:08:21

>> Um, so yeah, we I think it was 2020, I

01:08:26

had the opportunity of of actually

01:08:27

meeting um,

01:08:30

Don's brother and and his his wife and

01:08:34

and his family. And you know the the

01:08:38

three words that really um I guess set

01:08:41

me free was we forgive you know and even

01:08:47

though I heard that at sentencing as

01:08:50

well. Um yeah that really just I guess

01:08:54

gave me a sense of

01:08:57

freedom again. It

01:09:00

>> did they say that in the sentencing?

01:09:02

>> Yeah. Wow.

01:09:03

>> In in the sentencing. Um cuz like my um

01:09:08

my mom's the same age now as what uh

01:09:10

Donald was and dad's a little bit older.

01:09:13

So I'm just I'm projecting here. I'm

01:09:14

putting myself in in their position.

01:09:17

>> If it was me, I think I'd be able to I'd

01:09:20

be able to forgive you now seeing seeing

01:09:22

the man you've become and that you've

01:09:24

done the work and you've changed. Um,

01:09:26

but if I was in court facing like a

01:09:28

shitty little 15year-old that had had

01:09:30

done it and wasn't actually sorry or

01:09:32

hadn't done any change at that point,

01:09:34

I'd find it very difficult to forgive

01:09:35

you at that point.

01:09:36

>> Yeah. You know, I I actually did not

01:09:39

understand

01:09:41

forgiveness then. I did I didn't

01:09:43

understand it. M

01:09:45

>> um so when when I think it was the

01:09:47

daughter um had read that you know I I

01:09:51

didn't quite get it until till later on

01:09:54

in my journey

01:09:55

>> uh where I sort of started to learn

01:09:57

about forgiveness and stuff like that

01:09:59

>> and you know that was the first

01:10:01

encounter of of forgiveness that I that

01:10:03

I ever had

01:10:04

>> was that day in sentencing

01:10:06

>> and

01:10:08

yeah and then again when I met the

01:10:12

brother um you know that if they do

01:10:15

forgive me and and stuff like that for

01:10:18

for the part that I played and you know

01:10:20

what um that really gave me the wings to

01:10:23

to fly I guess

01:10:25

>> um and sort of take off and and start my

01:10:29

life

01:10:30

>> with my family um because yeah my my

01:10:34

faro are my why of why I do everything

01:10:39

>> and

01:10:41

yeah and and it wasn't plain sailing

01:10:44

after that like you and you nick you

01:10:45

were living in a car for a while. You

01:10:47

were homeless.

01:10:47

>> Yeah. So I put my family in a situation.

01:10:51

Hey um

01:10:53

I was I was working then but I was still

01:10:56

hooked on drugs.

01:10:57

>> Mhm.

01:10:58

>> Uh at this at this point and

01:11:02

meth was was that drug. Um

01:11:06

and I sold everything for it. I sort of

01:11:09

went down this path of just I wanted it

01:11:12

and I was going to do anything to get

01:11:14

it. Um so I just started selling

01:11:17

everything, got rid of everything and

01:11:19

just to fulfill my my habit. Um, but I

01:11:24

think also to numb some of that

01:11:27

that pain,

01:11:29

>> hey,

01:11:29

>> the childhood trauma that stuff that

01:11:32

happened with the uh with the situation

01:11:35

with uh Dawn and that and yeah um put my

01:11:41

faro

01:11:43

in a situation where they become

01:11:44

homeless. Yeah. And

01:11:47

um we're sort of couch surfing from Faro

01:11:51

and friends and stuff like that. And you

01:11:54

know Nikki and the kids sort of camped

01:11:58

up in in the car while I was still out

01:12:00

the gate. Um you know chasing

01:12:05

meth.

01:12:09

>> Nikki must have been been under so much

01:12:11

pressure from her family. E like like

01:12:12

what are you doing with this guy?

01:12:14

>> For sure.

01:12:16

Like

01:12:16

>> I can't imagine like the I don't know

01:12:18

the what the word is if it's

01:12:20

determination or whatever to stay with

01:12:22

you. Like

01:12:24

>> there must have been so much fun I

01:12:25

pulled to get her away from you.

01:12:27

>> Oh for sure. Like yeah I don't even know

01:12:31

why or how she even stayed with me. Um

01:12:34

yeah. So and her faro like they're are

01:12:38

loving. They're real loving family. M

01:12:42

>> um my mom and dad. Yeah, they're so

01:12:45

awesome. You know, they they probably

01:12:47

didn't like me then at all.

01:12:49

>> Well, it sounds that you didn't like

01:12:51

yourself then.

01:12:52

>> No, I didn't.

01:12:53

>> Um I

01:12:55

was a pretty ugly person then. Um yeah,

01:12:59

>> to to everyone,

01:13:01

>> not just to

01:13:02

>> Nikki and I was just ugly to everybody.

01:13:05

>> Yeah. There's a saying I really like um

01:13:08

hurt people hurt people.

01:13:10

>> That's right.

01:13:10

>> Yeah. Yeah,

01:13:11

>> you were you were hurt.

01:13:12

>> Yeah. And you know what? There's there's

01:13:15

a flip side to that. E um when you find

01:13:17

healing and heal people, heal people.

01:13:21

>> Yeah. And I guess that's sort of the

01:13:23

journey that I'm on at the moment is

01:13:25

>> is using my experience and my journey

01:13:29

that I've been through to sort of um

01:13:32

help others that are going through it

01:13:35

>> and also to hopefully be some sort of

01:13:39

intervention for some of our young ones.

01:13:41

>> Yeah.

01:13:42

>> So that they don't have to walk down the

01:13:44

same path. They don't need to experience

01:13:46

jail. That's ugly place. You don't need

01:13:50

to go down there. Go get an education.

01:13:53

>> Go learn how to read or write. Um, you

01:13:55

know,

01:13:56

>> go put your head in some books so you

01:13:58

could become something.

01:14:03

>> Thankfully, we're through the the ugly

01:14:05

part of the story. Yeah. Is it is it

01:14:09

hard to talk about?

01:14:10

>> Um,

01:14:11

>> it's it's part of it's part of your

01:14:13

story, eh, but it's still not a nice

01:14:14

part of the story.

01:14:15

>> No. And I guess like when you're sharing

01:14:18

your shame,

01:14:20

it is quite quite hard. E um but I also

01:14:24

see the power in it. Um like I was just

01:14:28

sharing then like for others to be able

01:14:31

to take it up and and maybe get

01:14:33

something from it.

01:14:35

>> Um is is sort of where I see the power

01:14:37

in in sharing.

01:14:38

>> Yeah. Yeah, because if if I could help

01:14:41

somebody

01:14:43

and change the course of what whatever

01:14:45

path that they're on,

01:14:47

>> I feel like I'm I'm doing something not

01:14:51

just for me and myself, but also for Don

01:14:53

and his family,

01:14:54

>> you know, like Yeah.

01:14:57

[Music]

01:14:59

>> So, so how do you go from um living in

01:15:02

the car to getting getting that first

01:15:05

job on a farm? Who who was it that gave

01:15:07

you gave you the opportunity?

01:15:09

>> Um, so

01:15:14

shucks from there

01:15:16

I had a few jobs uh leading up to that

01:15:19

situation, but my first job when I first

01:15:21

got out of jail was actually on a bull

01:15:23

farm in Mensville doing three and a half

01:15:26

thousand bulls. Um, which was hard work,

01:15:30

>> but I I lived off that adrenaline. So

01:15:35

working with bulls was bloody cool.

01:15:39

Um and yeah, so that was the first

01:15:42

opportunity that I got when I first got

01:15:44

out of jail. It was the week of getting

01:15:46

out of jail

01:15:47

>> that I got that one.

01:15:49

>> Um

01:15:50

and then from there I moved over to the

01:15:53

dairy industry and I had a a heap of

01:15:57

[ __ ] jobs. E like with a criminal record

01:16:00

you have to take whatever. You don't

01:16:03

have an option.

01:16:04

>> Yeah. The opportunities are extremely

01:16:06

limited, aren't they?

01:16:07

>> That's right. Hey, so um in every single

01:16:11

interview that you'll walk into, first

01:16:13

question is, "Have you got a criminal

01:16:14

record?" Straight off the bat. Okay. So,

01:16:18

yes, I do. Oh, cool. Is it just

01:16:20

stealing? No, it's manslaughter. Oh,

01:16:24

that's pretty much the interview over,

01:16:26

you know. So, that was probably 99% of

01:16:29

the time.

01:16:30

>> Yeah. So, and then yeah, finally got a

01:16:33

got a break um from a really awesome

01:16:37

farmer uh in in the Mville Minesville

01:16:41

area. Uh Graeme Graeme and Julie Lucas,

01:16:46

amazing couple. And you know what? They

01:16:48

actually gave me the opportunity to to

01:16:52

operate their farm. But also during that

01:16:55

time was when I went back in on my

01:16:58

recall

01:16:59

>> was was on their farm. And you know any

01:17:04

other a farmer or an employer that'll be

01:17:08

it. Your job's gone. You know you're not

01:17:10

here to fulfill it. So they'll need to

01:17:13

fill that spot. Well they didn't. They

01:17:16

kept my job open. They allowed Nikki to

01:17:20

operate the farm while I was absent or

01:17:22

in jail and they helped her out and they

01:17:27

came along to my parole hearing. Um

01:17:31

yeah, so

01:17:33

that was a really powerful I guess

01:17:36

moment also in my journey was was them

01:17:39

and you know they are really awesome

01:17:41

today. They still flick me a message

01:17:43

every now and again, stay in contact,

01:17:46

seen them last year, field days and

01:17:47

stuff like that. And and oh, I'm so

01:17:50

grateful to have people like them.

01:17:53

There's another couple as well, uh,

01:17:56

Shane and Cheryl.

01:17:58

Um, another beautiful couple, who gave

01:18:02

me an opportunity knowing my background.

01:18:04

Um, they just didn't care. They were

01:18:06

like, "Cool, that doesn't really worry

01:18:09

us." and he taught me a lot about

01:18:12

farming, about life. Um, yeah, sort of

01:18:16

like a

01:18:18

like a cur, a father figure, you know.

01:18:20

Um, one that yeah, sort of showed me a

01:18:23

lot in the short amounts of time that I

01:18:26

was with him.

01:18:27

>> He he taught me heaps. And the

01:18:30

>> these two farm owner couples that you've

01:18:32

just mentioned,

01:18:34

have you had a conversation with them?

01:18:35

Like, why didn't they just wash their

01:18:37

hands with you?

01:18:38

I haven't actually had that conversation

01:18:40

with them. Um, but you know what, Shane,

01:18:43

he he's always like even just recently,

01:18:48

he um

01:18:50

he dropped off these homemade boats. So,

01:18:54

he made these little little yachts

01:18:57

uh for my for my daughter.

01:19:00

>> And, you know, we've just had this

01:19:02

relationship

01:19:04

um since starting with him. And it's

01:19:08

just been amazing, you know, uh like

01:19:11

>> I can call on them whenever or I feel

01:19:13

like I can call on them for whatever,

01:19:16

you know.

01:19:17

>> Um and when we move from

01:19:21

um from his farm to another farm, like

01:19:24

he got all the support that we needed to

01:19:25

move and and everything like that. So

01:19:28

>> yeah, he's just I don't know. You find

01:19:31

those ones and but it's quite rare, you

01:19:34

know. It's just like finding bloody

01:19:36

diamonds, you know. It is quite rare.

01:19:38

And

01:19:39

>> uh when when I did find them, they would

01:19:42

Yeah. They become family, you know.

01:19:45

>> Yeah. There's some really good people

01:19:46

out there, right? But it's you can also

01:19:49

understand not saying that people that

01:19:50

wouldn't give you a sec a second chance

01:19:52

or a third chance are bad people. They

01:19:54

don't owe you anything.

01:19:55

>> No, they don't. and they didn't need to

01:19:58

do what they did

01:19:59

>> at all. You know, especially when I went

01:20:01

to jail. Um I

01:20:05

I

01:20:05

>> there would be an opportunity to say,

01:20:07

"Okay, we we gave you a chance. Clearly,

01:20:08

you haven't changed. Um we don't want to

01:20:10

know about yet."

01:20:11

>> Yeah, for sure.

01:20:12

>> Yeah.

01:20:13

>> And obviously they also seen potential

01:20:15

in me that I didn't see,

01:20:18

>> you know.

01:20:18

>> When did you start to see the potential

01:20:20

in yourself?

01:20:21

>> Um

01:20:25

maybe

01:20:27

after

01:20:34

25 I don't maybe 7 years ago. Yeah,

01:20:37

>> 7 years ago. Was there a moment or

01:20:39

anything or was it like a gradual thing?

01:20:42

Um,

01:20:44

so

01:20:46

I was going through a whole lot of

01:20:47

rubbish and you know I was I was

01:20:49

actually looking at going back to jail

01:20:52

and um

01:20:55

had this police officer. He

01:21:00

he was um

01:21:02

he he was at home quite a lot, you know,

01:21:06

um checking up on Nikki and whatnot. Um,

01:21:09

yeah, just to see if things were all

01:21:11

going okay. But it wasn't. And you know,

01:21:14

he was like, "Bro, like if you carry

01:21:16

this [ __ ] on, you're going to go to jail

01:21:19

and they're going to throw away the key

01:21:20

and that's it."

01:21:22

>> And you know, and that's coming from who

01:21:25

I thought was the enemy

01:21:27

>> my whole life. Um, I seen police

01:21:30

officers as enemy forever

01:21:34

>> because of what I seen in our own home,

01:21:36

>> seen in our neighborhood and stuff like

01:21:38

that with Faro, you know. So, to

01:21:42

actually hear that from from a police

01:21:44

officer was like, wow.

01:21:46

>> Yeah.

01:21:48

>> So,

01:21:49

>> felt like he he was sort of on your side

01:21:50

in a way.

01:21:51

>> It did.

01:21:52

>> Yeah.

01:21:52

>> And there was no strings attached to it,

01:21:55

>> you know. I sort of genuinely

01:21:58

like Yeah. I felt

01:22:02

something different from him.

01:22:05

>> Yeah.

01:22:08

>> So, so you you made the change.

01:22:09

>> Was it a good or was it a gradual thing

01:22:11

with a couple of um speed bumps along

01:22:13

the way?

01:22:14

>> Yeah. So, um I I did this program that

01:22:18

really gave me some real good resources

01:22:21

and tools to be honest. um that helped

01:22:24

me not just in my relationship but in my

01:22:27

own journey of

01:22:30

I guess

01:22:32

not just self-discovery but you know

01:22:35

dealing with childhood traumas and and

01:22:38

stuff like that and you know just really

01:22:40

getting to understand what was going on

01:22:44

um and why it was happening and stuff

01:22:46

like that and you know that

01:22:50

really helped me out and you know I was

01:22:52

able to apply I a lot of those tools in

01:22:54

into my life and Yeah.

01:22:59

>> How long have you been um Do you still

01:23:01

drink at all or No,

01:23:02

>> no. Just doesn't agree with you.

01:23:05

>> Yeah. What about

01:23:06

>> jail put me in there? Oh, drinky put me

01:23:08

in in jail, you know. So, I don't really

01:23:11

I don't typically like alcohol. Um like

01:23:16

I didn't I wasn't a heavy drinker

01:23:18

anyway. I was more of a drugs. Hey,

01:23:21

drugs was my my thing.

01:23:23

>> So, yeah, alcohol wasn't really a

01:23:26

>> So, when was the last time you drunk or

01:23:28

smoked meth?

01:23:29

>> Oh, last night. No,

01:23:34

>> on the weekend.

01:23:35

>> Just for clarification. So, yesterday,

01:23:37

we're recording this on a Saturday. On

01:23:39

the Friday, you had a day on the farm

01:23:40

and then you were out diving for

01:23:42

crayfish at like midnight.

01:23:44

>> Yeah. No, that that is my that's my drug

01:23:46

now. E.

01:23:47

>> Yeah. That's your outlet, your voice.

01:23:49

Yeah. Hey, that that's my the thing that

01:23:51

fills my cup

01:23:53

>> is is my family and also I love I love

01:23:57

diving but my passion is is in is in

01:24:00

working the fenoa working with with

01:24:03

animals

01:24:04

>> but also teaching um you know people

01:24:08

about the agriculture sector. M I quite

01:24:12

enjoy that and showing the life of a New

01:24:15

Zealand farmer

01:24:17

>> and and somebody who has come out of

01:24:20

that I guess system or their lifestyle

01:24:24

>> um and can make something of themselves,

01:24:27

you know, just I guess a a glimmer of

01:24:30

hope for for

01:24:32

>> those ones that are sitting in in in

01:24:34

jail, you know, that that it doesn't

01:24:37

have to be it.

01:24:39

>> Yeah. So, your life looks pretty good

01:24:41

now.

01:24:42

>> It does.

01:24:43

>> What about um um the domestic violence?

01:24:46

When was the last time you you and Nikki

01:24:49

have your sweet now?

01:24:50

>> Oh, it's more her now.

01:24:54

I'm the one getting the hiding these

01:24:55

days, mate. Hey, no. Um yeah, just a air

01:25:00

bash.

01:25:03

No, but domestic violence, bro. None.

01:25:06

No,

01:25:07

>> it's um it's cuz you You've got this

01:25:10

like this piece this inner piece about

01:25:12

you now.

01:25:13

>> Yeah. Uh I'm content with life now. E um

01:25:16

I've got my three-year-old daughter

01:25:18

who's just watching every single step

01:25:20

that

01:25:20

>> that I'm taking.

01:25:22

>> Uh she's looking at everything that we

01:25:25

do together and yeah, she's just soaking

01:25:28

it in. And I don't want her to see that.

01:25:31

>> Um I don't want her to grow up

01:25:34

>> with domestic violence and stuff like

01:25:36

that.

01:25:36

>> Yeah. Cuz it's all for kids. It's all

01:25:38

one and lost in the first thousand days.

01:25:40

Something like like 80% of the brain

01:25:42

development, everything they know about

01:25:43

like, you know, healthy relationships

01:25:45

and

01:25:46

>> everything, it's all done in those first

01:25:48

few years.

01:25:49

>> I'm not saying that I'm I'm perfect or

01:25:51

I'm the best. But I I want to give my

01:25:54

daughter everything that I didn't get

01:25:56

and more,

01:25:57

>> you know. Um like yeah, I just want to

01:26:00

show her a life that

01:26:03

>> Yeah. It just gives her so much I guess

01:26:06

freedom and opportunity

01:26:10

um where she can just I guess dream big.

01:26:14

Yeah. I just Yeah. I want the best for

01:26:16

for my daughters.

01:26:18

>> How would you feel if you heard that

01:26:20

when she's seven an older cousin gives

01:26:21

her weed?

01:26:23

>> Oh

01:26:24

>> yeah.

01:26:27

>> It's so young. E

01:26:28

>> so young when you started, bro.

01:26:30

>> I know.

01:26:31

>> It's crazy. Like even even when I think

01:26:33

of my older daughters, I'll just put

01:26:35

this back up like you know and

01:26:40

going to jail at 15 14 15

01:26:43

>> like when my girls were 14 and 15

01:26:46

>> like

01:26:47

>> they were at school, you know,

01:26:50

um really they do really awesome uh at

01:26:54

heights and stuff like that. But they're

01:26:57

involved in so much sports so far out.

01:27:01

Like is this is this what 15y olds do?

01:27:05

>> Yeah. Normal healthy 15y olds. Yeah.

01:27:07

Now, how does your your past um still

01:27:09

impact your life today? Like in terms of

01:27:12

I guess like like judgment and

01:27:15

>> Oh, people always going to judge.

01:27:16

>> Yeah.

01:27:17

>> You know, that's just the unfortunate

01:27:19

part of life. M um but you know it

01:27:22

doesn't really impact me so much

01:27:26

nowadays but you know I'll always have

01:27:31

in the back of my mind the family

01:27:34

they'll always be there

01:27:37

um yeah I've always

01:27:39

>> Don's family

01:27:41

>> so in everything that I do I'm always

01:27:43

quite cautious of

01:27:46

um how I

01:27:50

yeah how I sort of portray things cuz I

01:27:53

don't want to hurt their family anymore

01:27:55

than what they you know they're already

01:27:57

doing a life sentence like you said

01:27:59

>> and they don't need to

01:28:00

>> have anymore you know

01:28:02

>> so I always try and um think about my

01:28:05

actions and how that may affect them

01:28:09

>> and myself and my and my family say

01:28:11

>> yeah

01:28:13

so uh 2024 um you win the award young

01:28:16

moldy the farmer of the year.

01:28:18

>> Yeah.

01:28:18

>> Yeah. Was Was everyone okay with that or

01:28:21

were there some people that were like,

01:28:23

"Oh, this guy shouldn't win because of

01:28:25

his past or

01:28:27

>> Definitely. There's so many people who

01:28:30

don't think that I deserve to be where I

01:28:31

am today."

01:28:32

>> You know, some people definitely think

01:28:34

that I should be still in jail cell

01:28:36

rotting,

01:28:37

>> you know, with the key thrown away,

01:28:39

never to be found. Um,

01:28:42

but

01:28:44

uh I want to change and I've got it. Um,

01:28:48

I wanted to be better. Uh, I wanted to

01:28:50

change the cycle for for my family.

01:28:54

>> Um, and you know, I

01:28:59

yeah, the the judgment's always going to

01:29:00

be there. But I think for me, like,

01:29:05

as long as I I believe in myself and

01:29:08

I've got the right support around me,

01:29:10

like, yeah, I don't think that I could

01:29:12

fall over.

01:29:14

>> I've got my wife, I've got my kids, um,

01:29:16

who are 100% behind me, got my family,

01:29:20

um, my friends, my my boys who I go

01:29:22

diving with, and everyone's sort of

01:29:24

keeping me on track. M

01:29:26

>> um and you know I've got to give it up

01:29:28

to my team and you know my wife is

01:29:31

probably the leading part of of of all

01:29:34

of it you know so

01:29:36

>> is um

01:29:39

is New Zealand a hard country to get

01:29:41

redemption in

01:29:43

>> Yeah sure.

01:29:44

>> Yeah. Like we've we've got so much

01:29:47

things that go on here in tall puppy

01:29:50

syndrome here in Al is rubbish.

01:29:52

>> It's probably the

01:29:53

>> Oh, it's just Yeah, it's disgusting.

01:29:55

It's ugly. It is. It's real ugly.

01:29:57

>> Yeah. And you know, like

01:29:59

>> a lot of it's centered around jealousy,

01:30:01

I think.

01:30:01

>> Yeah, for sure. Exactly. It's a It's a

01:30:03

strange phenomenon syndrome.

01:30:05

>> Yeah. Especially here in Oh, I don't

01:30:07

know what it is, but you know, people

01:30:09

just don't want to see people

01:30:10

succeeding.

01:30:11

>> And you know, they don't want to see

01:30:13

people change.

01:30:14

>> Yeah.

01:30:15

>> So, and then when you do change, it's

01:30:17

like, no, we want you to go back to how

01:30:19

you were because we were benefiting

01:30:21

>> of that person. You know,

01:30:23

>> it's kind like you're damned if you do,

01:30:24

damned if you don't. It's like you you

01:30:26

you you're like a dream outcome. This is

01:30:27

what you can't log people up forever.

01:30:30

>> No.

01:30:30

>> Um so the the dream result is that

01:30:32

someone goes through does the crime,

01:30:34

does the time

01:30:35

>> and then um completely changes their

01:30:37

life. Like I've had another guy on the

01:30:39

podcast, Dr. Paul Wood,

01:30:40

>> who's um he he murdered his drug dealer

01:30:43

when he was 18 and uh did 10 years um

01:30:46

>> got a couple of degrees when he was

01:30:48

inside and he's changed his life around

01:30:49

and you know there's still Yeah.

01:30:53

Yeah,

01:30:54

>> it's a good lesson in a way, I guess, in

01:30:56

that, you know, you your past does stick

01:30:59

with you.

01:31:00

>> Yes. And you know, I'm not going to let

01:31:02

it define who I am,

01:31:04

>> but it it is now a part of my my story.

01:31:09

>> Um, and yeah, with that, I I want to

01:31:14

share it so

01:31:16

>> yeah, I can help others. M

01:31:19

>> um what other awards have you won? Yeah.

01:31:22

So I won Dahu Fininoa Young Moldi Farmer

01:31:25

2024 and then the following the

01:31:29

following week

01:31:31

um

01:31:32

oh no sorry before winning AU Finoa I

01:31:36

won dairy manager of the year uh for the

01:31:38

central plateau and then uh went to

01:31:42

nationals down in Queenstown where I won

01:31:44

the people and leadership award at the

01:31:47

nationals and then the following week

01:31:50

after nationals was uh won young multi

01:31:53

farmer of the year. Uh which was it was

01:31:56

an epic night. Like that was amazing. Uh

01:32:00

but the leadup to it like going back

01:32:04

three years

01:32:06

I lost I actually

01:32:09

I didn't win the Au Finoa and that had

01:32:12

like a pretty big uh effect on me

01:32:16

>> um mentally and

01:32:18

>> did it why?

01:32:20

Um, I don't know. I think cuz I

01:32:24

I put so much money in like I didn't

01:32:27

think that I won it, but yeah, I thought

01:32:31

that I had put in enough work um then,

01:32:36

but obviously, hey, I needed I needed

01:32:38

some more growing. I needed some more

01:32:40

developing. Um, so I went back to the

01:32:42

drawing board

01:32:44

>> and I showed up again. Um so for so it's

01:32:49

every 3 year rollover for AU Finoa. Um

01:32:52

so I lost that year. So for the next 3

01:32:54

years I really wanted to do all that I

01:32:57

could to prepare

01:32:59

>> um to come back again. And hey I was

01:33:03

willing to turn up as many times as I

01:33:07

could

01:33:09

um not just for myself but for my far

01:33:12

>> and stuff like that.

01:33:14

and just to show that hey you can fall

01:33:17

over but it's up to you what happens

01:33:19

from there

01:33:20

>> and it was the same with the industry

01:33:21

awards uh so I done it for four years in

01:33:24

a row and for three of those years I I

01:33:30

one year I didn't even place at all

01:33:32

>> I was I was always in the top five

01:33:34

>> uh for each year that I did uh do the

01:33:37

awards and yeah it took four years

01:33:40

before I actually took it out

01:33:42

>> um so yeah

01:33:43

I'm pretty when I sort of fix myself on

01:33:46

something, I I I want to go for it.

01:33:49

>> Yeah. Like a dog with a b.

01:33:50

>> Yeah. Um and yeah, that was sort of

01:33:53

tunnel vision for uh for last year for

01:33:56

the manager of the year. It's like, you

01:33:58

know, I've put in all this mahi over the

01:34:00

last few years and this year I want to

01:34:02

give it a bit more

01:34:04

>> to see where I get.

01:34:06

>> Oh, good for you. And what about the

01:34:07

social media stuff? Where did that

01:34:09

start? You've got um um I checked you

01:34:11

out. farm RPZ. Um, your top Tik Tok's

01:34:15

got 22 million views.

01:34:17

>> Is it

01:34:18

>> 22 million views? Yeah. Which is

01:34:19

massive. It's an Yeah. unfathom fathom

01:34:23

fathomable amount of people.

01:34:24

>> Is that one where a cow's [ __ ] on

01:34:26

you or

01:34:27

>> uh it might be. Yeah. It might be the

01:34:29

one where the cow's [ __ ] on me or it

01:34:32

could be the one where I'm eating

01:34:34

crayfish and stuff like that. Um, but

01:34:37

yeah, again, it's just sharing the life

01:34:40

of a New Zealand farmer, a New

01:34:42

Zealander. Hey, living the life. And

01:34:45

yeah, I see a rural as as a really

01:34:49

awesome lifestyle

01:34:51

>> to bring your kids up. And yeah, I

01:34:53

really want to sort of

01:34:55

>> um I guess show it a bit more to attract

01:34:58

a lot more people into it cuz

01:35:00

>> Yeah.

01:35:02

um with social media and you know yeah

01:35:04

there's an upside but there's also a

01:35:06

downside as well like do you do you have

01:35:08

to block a lot of people?

01:35:09

>> Um people come at you in the comments.

01:35:12

>> Yeah heaps really saying what oh just

01:35:15

bringing up the past and

01:35:16

>> Oh not so much that like more

01:35:20

um people just trying to drag you down

01:35:22

you know like I was saying that tall

01:35:23

poppy syndrome.

01:35:24

>> Yeah. Hey, like a lot of people here at

01:35:26

Ulti at all just I don't know they don't

01:35:28

want to see people succeed

01:35:30

>> and they just want to pull you down. So,

01:35:33

um some of that we block and some people

01:35:36

do try to bring up the past but

01:35:39

>> I guess it doesn't affect you that much.

01:35:42

um you know I see more of the positive

01:35:45

stuff that's coming up like there's

01:35:48

thousands more positive things than

01:35:50

negatives uh that are coming through on

01:35:52

social media

01:35:53

>> and you know it's more around I guess

01:35:56

memories you know like we've got an

01:35:58

older generation that are sort of coming

01:36:00

through on social media saying thank you

01:36:02

for sharing because it's just brought

01:36:05

back memories of my childhood

01:36:07

>> with my dad or my core on the farm you

01:36:10

know which which is quite Um,

01:36:12

heartwarming I guess.

01:36:14

>> No, it's lovely.

01:36:16

>> And what about the high fist clothing?

01:36:18

You got a clothing label as well, eh?

01:36:20

>> Yes. So, we launched our clothing last

01:36:24

year uh sort of off the back of uh all

01:36:26

the awards. Oh, might have been prior to

01:36:29

the awards actually. Sorry. And yeah, so

01:36:32

we launched this this clothing.

01:36:36

And we started it

01:36:39

um to help uh people with Kai, you know.

01:36:44

So um my wife and I were sort of forking

01:36:48

out um at that time out of our own

01:36:51

pocket

01:36:52

>> uh to help some families that were in

01:36:54

need in our community. So we're just

01:36:56

going down to the shopping, buying $100

01:36:58

worth of grocery and sort of giving it

01:37:00

to a faro.

01:37:02

>> And you know, that was just getting too

01:37:04

hard on us financially.

01:37:06

um putting a lot of pressure on our

01:37:08

home. So yeah, we we started this

01:37:11

clothing and I didn't like the clothing

01:37:14

that's in farming at the moment too.

01:37:17

So that was another reason why I why I

01:37:20

wanted to start my own clothing and have

01:37:22

my own wardrobe. Um so

01:37:24

>> it's really really cool. What's the

01:37:25

what's the name? What's

01:37:27

>> uh the name is Kamu to Pamu, which means

01:37:29

calm your farm. Uh so

01:37:31

>> and it's cool. It's like h with um moldy

01:37:34

designs. Yeah. So, we've got singlets.

01:37:37

We've got our H highos range, which is

01:37:39

our working range uh which is uh

01:37:43

highlighted pink, yellow, and orange uh

01:37:47

in hoodies and shirts. And then, yeah,

01:37:50

we've got a whole other range of of

01:37:51

kakahoo as well. And yeah, it sort of

01:37:55

started taking off after winning the

01:37:57

awards. And then we just featured on

01:37:59

Country Calendar uh just recently. And

01:38:03

yeah, uh it just went crazy. Um so we

01:38:08

sold out two or three times and yeah, it

01:38:11

was just hard to try to keep up with

01:38:13

with the sales, the demand and yeah, we

01:38:17

finally just got on top of things. So

01:38:19

it's at a manageable stage right now.

01:38:21

>> Unreal. Unreal. So how can people access

01:38:24

it? What's the easiest way to find it?

01:38:25

>> Uh so online kamu.co.

01:38:29

Mhm.

01:38:29

>> Otherwise, you can find us on social

01:38:31

media kamu or flick me a message on farm

01:38:37

>> and I I'll send that to you.

01:38:38

>> Amazing. Um, what would your advice be

01:38:40

for anyone listening to this who is at

01:38:42

their say own version of rock bottom

01:38:44

right now?

01:38:46

>> Yeah, maybe someone is listening to this

01:38:48

that's living in a car on me,

01:38:50

incarcerated, whatever it happens to be.

01:38:58

But don't give up. E,

01:39:00

>> don't give up. Hey, there there's

01:39:02

another day.

01:39:04

There'll be another sunrise tomorrow to

01:39:07

give give life another go. Um, yeah,

01:39:12

just don't give up. Don't be afraid to

01:39:14

ask for help.

01:39:16

I think that's where I let myself down a

01:39:19

lot was not allowing myself to ask for

01:39:22

help.

01:39:23

>> And so, don't be afraid to ask for help.

01:39:25

There's always people out there that are

01:39:26

willing to help. M

01:39:28

>> um more than what we think.

01:39:31

>> Yeah.

01:39:31

>> Hey, and yeah, if you if you need reach

01:39:37

out to someone, I'm always happy. Hey,

01:39:39

people always reach out on on my social

01:39:41

media for help for whatever. And if we

01:39:46

can point you in a in a direction that

01:39:47

can get you that help, then I'll be more

01:39:51

than willing to do that.

01:39:53

>> Do you do you do you consider yourself a

01:39:55

role model? um

01:39:59

an example. Yeah.

01:40:01

>> Uh especially for our our young ones

01:40:05

that are coming up.

01:40:07

>> And yeah, I really have a heart for for

01:40:11

our our youth, our young ones, cuz man,

01:40:14

like

01:40:16

yeah, imagine just like you were saying

01:40:18

earlier, um 7 years old.

01:40:23

>> I can't imagine that anymore. M

01:40:26

>> so young painfully young

01:40:28

>> and and it doesn't need to happen like

01:40:30

yeah so

01:40:32

>> if you could go back and talk to like a

01:40:35

young Ben 7y old Ben 5-year-old Ben

01:40:37

whatever it happens to be

01:40:39

>> what would you tell him? Oh, I've said

01:40:42

it before like sorry for for the way

01:40:44

that things was, but I think um

01:40:50

if I could go back and and tell my

01:40:52

younger self something

01:40:54

more like blurry buck your ideas up and

01:40:56

use your ears e go to school learn

01:40:59

something

01:41:01

um like yeah do something with yourself

01:41:05

>> and yeah

01:41:09

not saying

01:41:10

Life is bad now. It's really good now.

01:41:13

But

01:41:14

>> hey, had had I not had the support

01:41:17

around me, I probably wouldn't be

01:41:18

sitting here with you talking about this

01:41:21

stuff to be honest.

01:41:22

>> And I I know for 100% if I didn't have

01:41:26

my wife

01:41:27

>> and my family, I wouldn't be here.

01:41:30

>> I would probably still be in jail.

01:41:32

>> Yeah.

01:41:34

>> So Don's family have forgiven you. Do

01:41:37

you forgive you?

01:41:38

>> I have. Yeah.

01:41:40

>> Yeah.

01:41:40

>> Did it take a while?

01:41:41

>> It did.

01:41:42

>> Even after that process,

01:41:45

even long after that process,

01:41:47

>> I sort of it sort of comes and goes. Um

01:41:51

so, you know, there'll be a long period

01:41:53

of time where I sort of just coasting

01:41:55

through life and then it sort of just

01:41:57

hits, you know.

01:41:58

>> Um sort of comes around to that time of

01:42:00

the year and it's like it hits again.

01:42:05

>> It's sort of a reminder. M

01:42:07

>> um and but it I I think it it's also a

01:42:11

good reminder for for myself. It gives

01:42:14

me a bit of a checkup.

01:42:16

>> Um yeah, where I can

01:42:20

actually think about it and say, "Yep,

01:42:23

that situation happened. Here we are

01:42:25

today. Let's go."

01:42:28

>> Yeah. How often Yeah. How often do you

01:42:31

catch yourself um thinking about Dawn

01:42:33

and his family now? So, is it is it like

01:42:35

a like a weekly thing, a monthly thing,

01:42:37

a daily thing? Is it just always there

01:42:39

or

01:42:41

>> uh it's not always there? Um but

01:42:45

like like

01:42:47

at least a few times a year, you know,

01:42:50

>> I'm always thinking about their family.

01:42:51

>> Yeah.

01:42:52

>> Um especially about uh and especially

01:42:54

cuz we have a relationship with the

01:42:56

brother now.

01:42:57

>> He's been over home, had a coffee and

01:42:59

and stuff like that. We've had dinner

01:43:01

with him and and things like that. and

01:43:03

he's met our daughter

01:43:05

>> and whatnot and like yeah so and also on

01:43:10

social media like always see them pop up

01:43:12

and yeah

01:43:16

>> like they're big people.

01:43:19

>> Yeah.

01:43:20

>> Amazing. Like to have a heart like that

01:43:24

is is is

01:43:27

nothing that you come across every day,

01:43:29

you know. Um because there's forgiveness

01:43:33

um like on different levels like I

01:43:34

suppose they could forgive you for

01:43:35

selfish reasons just because they don't

01:43:37

want to be hanging on to that hurt

01:43:39

>> but then to come and visit you and

01:43:41

engage with you on social media that's

01:43:43

like um

01:43:44

>> well that's sincere and genuine

01:43:46

forgiveness.

01:43:46

>> That's right. And like for that example

01:43:50

of coming over home, like he was going

01:43:53

through

01:43:55

our our town heading to go see his

01:43:58

family and he flick me a message to say

01:44:01

that he's passing through and that he

01:44:02

wants to stop in,

01:44:03

>> you know, like just to actually have

01:44:05

that go through that process of, you

01:44:08

know, wanting to come and see me is

01:44:10

huge. So yeah, there is forgiveness and

01:44:13

then there's this

01:44:14

>> you know this is on another level

01:44:18

and you know I'm grateful and honored

01:44:21

like to have that in my life cuz yeah

01:44:26

again I probably wouldn't have forgiven

01:44:30

myself without that process taking

01:44:32

place.

01:44:34

>> What about your co-offenders?

01:44:37

Do you know what they're up to? No,

01:44:39

>> no,

01:44:40

>> no, not at all.

01:44:41

>> Um, yeah, last I heard they were still

01:44:45

in jail

01:44:46

>> and yeah, sort of,

01:44:49

>> you know,

01:44:50

>> like they must be so jealous of you, but

01:44:52

like it's none of this has been easy and

01:44:54

no one else can do the work. Nikki can't

01:44:56

do the work for you.

01:44:57

>> No,

01:44:57

>> no one else can do the work for you. You

01:44:59

have to do it yourself. But they must be

01:45:00

so jealous cuz you've you've done it and

01:45:03

you found happiness on the on the other

01:45:04

side of all that hard work.

01:45:06

>> Um, yeah. Oh, I don't know if I'll call

01:45:09

it jealous. Um, I don't know how they

01:45:12

would be feeling to be honest. But hey,

01:45:14

if if if the shoe was on the other foot

01:45:17

and I seen one of my co-offenders doing

01:45:20

really well, bro, I would be like, [ __ ]

01:45:23

it's possible.

01:45:25

>> And if he can do it, why can't I?

01:45:28

>> Um, if he's where he is, then how come I

01:45:32

can't get there?

01:45:33

>> What's stopping me from getting there?

01:45:36

And to be honest, I would probably take

01:45:37

it to another step like I was saying

01:45:39

once I'm tunnel vision that that's it.

01:45:42

>> Um and ask them how did you do it?

01:45:47

>> What is the

01:45:50

>> Yeah, show me the steps. Show me the

01:45:51

path.

01:45:52

>> What's the recipe?

01:45:52

>> Yeah.

01:45:53

>> To to this and my answer would be the

01:45:57

support around you.

01:45:59

>> That is really important. Um and also

01:46:03

selfbelief.

01:46:05

believe it in yourself. Um that selft

01:46:08

talk um you know just I guess backing

01:46:12

yourself

01:46:14

>> you need a ya like if the why is strong

01:46:15

enough you'll figure out the how.

01:46:17

>> Yeah.

01:46:18

>> Where do you see yourself um in the

01:46:20

future? Like where do you see yourself

01:46:21

at 40 50

01:46:24

>> traveling the world? Do you

01:46:25

>> I hope.

01:46:26

>> Yeah. Where Yeah. What's the story with

01:46:28

that? Do travel restrictions get lifted

01:46:30

after a

01:46:31

>> N not with three charges e manslaughter,

01:46:33

murder and and rape. I think they stay

01:46:36

with you forever. Don't quote me on

01:46:38

that, but yeah, I'm pretty sure it's

01:46:40

those three. And we've been to Thailand.

01:46:45

We just recently went to Thailand. Uh

01:46:47

been there twice and then we went to

01:46:49

Raaro with my whole family. But you

01:46:52

know, even going to Raaro was was wasn't

01:46:55

easy. still have to apply and and stuff

01:46:58

like that. Um and yeah, and definitely

01:47:01

can't get into Aussie. So

01:47:04

>> really

01:47:04

>> can can scratch that one. Um yeah,

01:47:07

applied four times and been denied four

01:47:09

times. So yeah,

01:47:11

>> I want to know where the antic spirits

01:47:13

at.

01:47:14

>> And I want given that that was uh that

01:47:16

was originally a a colony where my

01:47:20

convicts from the UK were sent.

01:47:21

>> That's where they were all sent was

01:47:23

there.

01:47:24

They stop letting criminals in.

01:47:26

>> Yeah.

01:47:27

>> But yeah, it's um Hey, I got a lot of

01:47:31

fun in Aussie and I would love to go to

01:47:33

Australia.

01:47:34

>> Um and like yeah, I got my my my little

01:47:38

sister over there as well who's just had

01:47:40

her had her baby and I would love to go

01:47:42

visit them.

01:47:44

>> Um but unfortunately these are the

01:47:46

consequences of my actions.

01:47:48

>> And hey, I've got to I've got to wear

01:47:50

that. Mhm.

01:47:51

>> Um, and yeah, that's just that's life.

01:47:54

E.

01:47:55

>> Yeah.

01:47:55

>> But I think where do I see myself in the

01:47:58

future is

01:48:03

I think like with our clothing and that

01:48:05

we want to take that to another level.

01:48:07

Um, and also with farming with with the

01:48:12

farming industry. Um, you know, we we'll

01:48:17

eventually get to ownership uh for sure.

01:48:20

And like we had this massive ass dream

01:48:22

dom of setting up a farm for for guys

01:48:25

coming out of jail.

01:48:26

>> Sort of like a a halfway uh before they

01:48:29

go on to full-time employment. You know,

01:48:31

we had this massive dream of of getting

01:48:33

that all going. And you know, there's so

01:48:35

many people that that are keen to jump

01:48:37

on board. It's just, you know, we're

01:48:40

financially not able to do that

01:48:42

>> yet

01:48:42

>> and yet and, you know, it's quite a big

01:48:46

project to be honest,

01:48:48

>> but I think it'll be really rewarding to

01:48:50

get that up and going.

01:48:52

>> Um, and help people

01:48:56

get to where I am and beyond. You know,

01:48:59

just imagine that more people coming out

01:49:01

of jail and changing their lives and,

01:49:04

you know, becoming, it's not even just

01:49:06

in the farming industry. It could be in

01:49:08

any any industry to be honest.

01:49:10

>> Um but there's just nothing at the

01:49:12

moment

01:49:13

>> for people coming out of jail.

01:49:16

>> You get out of jail with a criminal

01:49:17

record, there's no way that you're

01:49:19

getting a job.

01:49:20

>> Uh so how can we bridge that gap? And

01:49:23

yeah, I feel like a a transition farm or

01:49:26

or something that's going to help

01:49:28

support them with whatever issues that

01:49:30

they have will really help that

01:49:33

situation.

01:49:35

>> That's a good goal. Yeah,

01:49:36

>> it's a good goal. Are you proud of

01:49:37

yourself?

01:49:38

>> Definitely definitely proud of myself.

01:49:41

I'm probably more um proud of my wife

01:49:45

for stay with me to be honest.

01:49:48

Like I don't know why or how you know

01:49:52

like but I'm so

01:49:54

>> I have to get her on a podcast to unpack

01:49:56

all that.

01:49:56

>> Oh no, thank you.

01:50:00

>> Uh but no, she's she's got an amazing

01:50:03

story too, you know. Um, yeah, she's

01:50:07

Yeah, I've got to give it up to her like

01:50:10

not just for sticking with me, but

01:50:13

for getting us here

01:50:15

as much as people say, "Well, you done

01:50:17

the mahi. You you showed up to the

01:50:19

awards and all that sort of stuff." But

01:50:22

without having her beside me,

01:50:27

bro, this I wouldn't have been able to

01:50:29

do it. like, yeah, I needed her um every

01:50:33

step of this way because she she knows

01:50:37

me. She knows my

01:50:40

I guess my um

01:50:43

my struggles and all that sort of stuff.

01:50:44

And you know, she sort of knows where to

01:50:46

fill in

01:50:47

>> and and show up so and encourage

01:50:51

um and yeah, she's she's amazing.

01:50:57

>> I reckon that's a good place to end it.

01:50:59

Yeah.

01:51:00

>> Yeah. Nice bow on the chat. How's it

01:51:02

been? You You've been anxious about this

01:51:05

for the last couple of days.

01:51:06

>> I know. I feel I could carry on talking

01:51:08

to you for the rest of the day, to be

01:51:10

honest.

01:51:11

>> Has it been all right?

01:51:12

>> It has. Um Yeah. Thank you for this

01:51:14

opportunity. Hey, um the nerves aren't

01:51:17

there anymore, but hey,

01:51:22

yeah, I'm very grateful to to have this

01:51:25

opportunity, Dom, to be honest.

01:51:26

>> Yeah. Oh, thanks for being here today,

01:51:28

Ben. And um thanks for sharing. I know

01:51:30

there there'll be a lot of people that

01:51:31

get a lot out of this conversation. No,

01:51:32

>> thank you.

01:51:33

>> That's cool.

01:51:35

>> Nice work, brother.

01:51:36

>> Cheers.

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