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Frank Bunce: The Incredible All Blacks Stories He Never Told - Until Now

May 10, 2026 / 02:13:06

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Lori, I don't know if if there was

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embellishment to these stories, but he

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he he said that Jonah was having

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>> You really think Lori's an embellisher?

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And another time he came in, he came in

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and he uh I was having breakfast. Oh,

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no. After training, he had a meeting and

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he goes, "You don't you want to play?

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You know, aren't you into this?" I was

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going, "Fuck." And he goes, "I'll be up

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in my room." This is after training

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before we went down for lunch. He goes,

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"I'll be up in my room." He goes, "If

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you want to if you want me to take you

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out of that team," he goes, "You come up

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and fucking," you know. So, of course, I

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never went up to town. I went down, had

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lunch and stuff. He walks in and he

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leans on the table, gets right in my

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face, and he goes, "I was waiting. You

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know, you didn't come up and see me."

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And I was going, "Fuck." Took all my

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willpower not to [ __ ] And I wanted to

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smack him.

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>> Oh, god. You're here. Come on. This is

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the center of performance. Whenever

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there's a top performance in New

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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

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for days. That's the boys who got the

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hollow one in too.

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Oh,

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>> he did it again. Hey Finn, how's the

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performance going?

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>> Top tier.

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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here

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you'll find our top performers helping

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Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

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investments. Get in here Finn.

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>> Maximize Generate. Putting performance

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first.

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>> Frank Buntz, welcome to my podcast.

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>> Thank you. Thanks, Dom.

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>> Hey, it's great to connect Frank B. uh

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55 tests including the 1995 Rugby World

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Cup final, 93 British and Irish Lion

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Series, the first two Tri Nations

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tournaments, and that historic series

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win over South Africa in South Africa in

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1996. Did I miss anything?

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um all my club years

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I um I often say to people that um you

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know I was lucky when going through

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there because you know I cross paths

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with some of the great you know some

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some people that can be um you know

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they're in the conversation for greatest

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all black ever

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>> you know in their positions and this

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stuff so like Michael Jones like like

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Jonah you know like um Jeff Wilson like

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Andrew Burton's like um Zenzan Brookke

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like you know so many so many names and

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um and I think you know I think a lot of

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them um are in that conversation. I

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think so.

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>> I I actually spoke to um the all black

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coach that's so um so you played your

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first rugby world cup for Samoa and um

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and we'll get into that. I've actually

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had the guy that shoulder tabbed you for

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um Sir Brian Williams. I've had him on

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the podcast legion. Um, so you you were

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getting quite old at that point and then

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you played so well in that rugby world

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cup that Lori Mains then got you for the

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All Blacks.

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>> So you played one World Cup for some,

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one World Cup for the All Blacks. I

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spoke to Lori yesterday at his home in

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Queenstown for like 20 minutes.

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>> He he um man, he gave me so much intel

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which I'll no doubt bring up through

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this conversation, but you mentioned

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Jonah before and he just talked about

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the pivotal role you had in Jonah's

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success, you and Eric Rush, because he

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said he really looked up to you guys. So

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he would often use you guys as um as

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sort of the middleman

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>> to get messaging to Jonah.

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>> Yeah, I think we were the buffers and

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you know to be fair it was it was rushy

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really. Um cuz in the earlier years

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before um Jonah burst onto the scene. Um

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so Eric had come to us and just said and

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you know just a group of friends and

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stuff and he goes oh I heard about this

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guy Jonah Jonah Lman young fell you know

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um at school and that and uh he goes oh

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you know he's heard all this stuff about

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him. He goes I'm thinking of taking him

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overseas cuz you know back then you

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could go and play sevens tournaments all

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over the world and and um

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>> I I think that's where a lot of people

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you know found their way. And uh so

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Rashi said I'm going to take him I think

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he took him to um did you go to Hong

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Kong? Singapore I think maybe Singapore

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and then uh up to the islands went to um

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you know Raro and stuff like that and

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and he came back and he was just you

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know just the way he spoke about Jonah

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and you know they had a connection from

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from all of that and and Rushy looked

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after him. So, um, when he came into the

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All Blacks, when he started making his

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way, you know, it it was mainly Rushy,

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but, um, you know, but, uh, there was a

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group of us, myself and Walter and Glenn

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Osborne, you know, the Brown brothers,

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they, you know, they they were calling

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everyone, but he was just comfortable,

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you know, Jonah was just comfortable

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with a group of people that, you know,

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would were just kind of like him. Um,

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you know, had grown up like him, had

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experiences like he did and stuff like

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that. and uh you know we looked after

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him so

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>> yeah this is going to be a fun chat. Do

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you do you enjoy like reminiscing or are

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you sort of in the now? Yeah.

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>> Oh um a bit of both actually. But no I

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do I do enjoy reminiscing.

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>> Lori I don't know if if there was

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embellishment to these stories but he he

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he said that Jonah was having

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>> You really think Lori's an embellisher?

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>> Actually I've got I've got I got a

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little bit of the conversation. I'll

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I'll play it to you. Like he's he was he

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said really nice things about you. Uh,

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hang on. Where's the sound here?

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Here we go.

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>> So, he's a professional.

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>> One of the great respectful things about

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Frank was he could take a tonging up and

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then two minutes later he was over it

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and he was back to doing his job and

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doing his job better because he had had

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a stir up.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Oh, he's a real man. Believe me. Uh if

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you had 15 Frank Bunes in a team, you'd

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never ever lose. For me, I'm I'm very

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reluctant to say who was best because

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times in rugby, the game was played

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differently. But he's right up there

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with Bill Davis, Bruce Robertson, and

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Joe Stanley. Uh who who who were all

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blacks when I was uh you know, old

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enough to to appreciate them.

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>> Yeah.

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>> One of the great respect.

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>> Yeah. See,

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>> nice words, eh? They are nice words.

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Yeah.

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>> Was Was he good at giving you a tongue

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lashing?

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>> Oh, he Jeez, he had heard it all. Um,

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how's he What's it like with swearing?

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>> Anything goes.

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>> Uh, he um what did he I think one of the

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things so we were playing in Scotland

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and um it was a it wasn't a test. It was

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a midweek game and then I get Doc May

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who comes on the field and he goes um

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Lori said uh Lori said if you don't stop

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[ __ ] around you know get off if

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you're not going to stop [ __ ] around.

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I'm saying what what he goes oh he's

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he's pissed off. I was going [ __ ]

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[ __ ] you know and uh it went on and

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on and on and I think in those they

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didn't have the walkie-talkies back then

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but um you know they Lori was ringing

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Doc on his telephone and and he goes and

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it just went backwards and forwards for

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a little bit. I never I never went off

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but um after the game finished and we

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won

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>> and after the game finished I walk off

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and Doc goes better watch out you know

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Lor's not happy. I was going [ __ ] you

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know Lor's not happy and so uh we just

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carry on. I go in the shower and I'm

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having a shower just, you know, and then

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I turn around and Lori's standing there

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was like and he looks at me and he goes,

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"If I if I bought my gun today, I would

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have [ __ ] shot you, you cunt."

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And I was going, "So,

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uh, that was one of them." And then he

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comes in. So, you know, it was like,

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"Oh, yeah." and he walks out and then um

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we uh I think we're having a team

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meeting was I don't know can't remember

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but we we're having a team party that

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night a bit of a social gathering and

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then he walks in to the room and you

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know we're all having a few beers and he

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walks in he turns the um the music down

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and he looks around and he goes right he

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goes anyone who didn't play today and

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then he looks around and he stops at me

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and he goes and [ __ ] you goes

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in the foyer. Tomorrow morning at 8:00

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we're training. I was like, "Fuck it."

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And then uh so we were just like, "Ah."

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Carried on the night went down. He

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trained me. He put me at lock because we

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were short there. So he made me train at

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lock for the whole time. And every time

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I made mistakes, which of course I was

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going to do because I was training, you

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know, in a position I had no idea about.

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And uh every time I made a mistake, he

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just abused me, abused everyone, got um

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you know, and then you know, yeah,

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penalized everybody for everything. And

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I think I don't know if you remember um

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cuz Mike Brewer, he wasn't on the on the

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tour officially. He was there as a

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Canterbury uh rep and um he was we were

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short, so he's like, "Oh, you know, blah

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blah blah." Yeah. Then he told Mike

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Brewer to to get into to do the training

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and stuff and he ended up anyway Mike

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Brewer um played in a test match ahead

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of Liam Barry but he got pulled from the

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sideline to do it but that was that tour

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but oh his he just abused you know he

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man I've just seen him

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>> but you know he'd do it

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>> but he has said that to me too actually.

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He said, "You know, the the reason that

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I could I would say that to you is

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because I knew, you know, I'd get a

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positive response. You know, you could

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take it." And he goes, "And you could

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shake it off." And I'm not saying it

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didn't, you know, at the time it didn't

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affect me because, you know, you're just

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thinking, "Fuck, you you have a good

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training or something. You do something

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and then you get abused and you're just

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going [ __ ] what the And another time

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he came in. He came in and he uh I was

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having breakfast. Oh, no. after training

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he had a meeting and he goes

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um he looks at me and he goes you don't

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don't you want to play you know aren't

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you into this I was going [ __ ] he

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goes I'll be up in my room this is after

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training before we went down for lunch

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and he goes I'll be up in my room he

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goes if you want to if you want me to

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take you out of that team he goes you

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come up and [ __ ] you know

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of course I never went up to tell I went

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down had lunch and stuff he walks in and

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he leans on the table gets right in my

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face and he goes I was waiting and you

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know you didn't come up and see me and I

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was going [ __ ] it took all my willpower

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not the [ __ ] and I wanted to smack him

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but he was but you know he would

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I'm sure he had a plan yeah but

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>> it wasn't always clear what it was

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>> it was yeah it wasn't always clear but

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um no he was you know he was the best

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coach I ever had and it turned out that

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maybe he knew before I did that I didn't

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mind that stuff you know and I know I've

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seen people

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>> um he's abused people he's sworn at them

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he's done who haven't been able to take

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it and turn it around. So, um it works

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both ways. You got to I guess you got to

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figure out the person.

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>> Yeah. I I asked him about your nickname

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uh the prince of darkness and he goes he

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goes I could I could get I speculate how

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he got that nickname and then he

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chuckled but he said I don't know for

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certain. Are you still the prince of

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darkness? How did you get the nickname

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Prince of Darkness? you'd have to ask.

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Um, well, it was back in those days, you

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know, when when you had a few beers and

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you used to go out and, you know, we we

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would go out, you'd have a few beers on

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Thursday, you know, before uh after

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training after you've you've done the

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week, you know, you cuz back in those

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days, and all the rules were changing, I

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think, cuz you're only allowed to

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assemble sort of three or four days out

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from the actual game. So we'd assemble

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on a Tuesday train. Oh, that's in New

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Zealand, you know, train Tuesday,

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Wednesday, Thursday, and we'd have a

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little captain's run on Friday. But, you

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know, you'd have a few beers um within

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reason, of course, uh leading up to a

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game, but then afterwards,

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and you know, Lori was all for it. It

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was, you know, it was what was done in

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those days, you know, so you'd just go

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out and um and enjoy yourself, you know,

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and he didn't care. He said, "You know,

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if long as you front up, because we used

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to train actually the day after games,

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especially when we're on tour, but you'd

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go out, enjoy yourself, have a few

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beers, but you better make sure that you

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turn up to whatever you're supposed to

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turn up. You got to be responsible as

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well, but you turn up to team meetings,

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you turn up to trainings, you perform at

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training, you do what you have to do."

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He didn't care if you went out and had a

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few beers. So, of course,

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>> we went out and had a few beers. And

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there was a group of people in, you

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know, Prince of Darkness. I think that's

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an Eric Rush, you know, I'd go back to

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uh go back to Russia and see where that

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came from. But, you know, we spent a lot

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of time out enjoying ourselves.

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>> Oh, work hard play out. I suppose it was

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the culture at the time, late '

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>> 90s.

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>> Um, so Celebrity Treasure Island, you're

00:12:07

back on that now. Uh, this isn't your

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first time either. You've been you were

00:12:10

one of the original cast members like 25

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years ago. What's the difference between

00:12:15

2001 Celebrity Treasure Island and 2026?

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Apart from the fact that I'm 25 years

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old, um it I well I think it's a lot

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it's taken a lot more seriously now in

00:12:27

terms of um in terms of the production,

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you know, and and you know what you're

00:12:31

what's expected of you and back then,

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you know, and I always say it's it's all

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about the people. But um 25 years ago,

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you have to stop and think um that

00:12:43

that's kind of I can't remember any of

00:12:44

the challenges. I can't I can barely

00:12:46

remember the team. I can you know but we

00:12:48

were over in Fiji and we were having a

00:12:50

great time and you know it was it was

00:12:52

all good. Um but um the thing I do

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remember about it is and even if it's

00:12:58

vaguely was that I had a bloody good

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time and met some good people which when

00:13:03

you do these sorts of things you always

00:13:05

meet good people and um so you know when

00:13:08

I got asked again I was thinking you

00:13:10

know it it was quite timely but um I

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thought

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yeah you know I like a you know it's not

00:13:17

I like a little bit of a challenge you

00:13:19

know nothing too hard these days but you

00:13:21

know I won't shy away from things. But

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um no, no, it's it's always it's always

00:13:26

just the people and uh you know, I had a

00:13:29

good time, so I figured I'll go back.

00:13:30

They didn't pay us 25 years ago. They

00:13:33

pay you these days. So, you know, that

00:13:34

was

00:13:35

>> You get like a day rate, don't you?

00:13:36

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:37

>> You pay for the days that you're there.

00:13:38

>> Yeah. You get a sign on and then you get

00:13:40

a a day rate

00:13:42

>> and then a bonus if you win.

00:13:44

>> But you're you're 64 now. Surely you

00:13:46

like sleeping in a comfortable bed.

00:13:47

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm sleeping in a

00:13:49

comfortable bed. But uh um I still

00:13:52

direct drive around in a Niss Antid

00:13:54

though.

00:13:54

>> Do you actually?

00:13:55

>> Well I well I have done for for years

00:13:57

and years but it's just one of those

00:13:59

little cars that um that went through

00:14:02

our family and sort of ended up with me

00:14:04

and uh

00:14:05

>> and it's a really little comfortable

00:14:07

little thing and you know it cost you

00:14:09

next to nothing to drive and and I only

00:14:11

you know I live in Pokoi so I zip around

00:14:14

>> wherever you need to go you go in five

00:14:16

or 10 minutes. Yeah.

00:14:17

>> How do you feel being 64?

00:14:20

>> Um

00:14:20

>> cuz there's that line in the Beatles

00:14:22

song, will you still need me? Will you

00:14:23

still feed me when I'm 64? It's like an

00:14:25

iconic line.

00:14:26

>> But you you're looking you're looking

00:14:27

really good. You feel okay?

00:14:29

>> I I do. I feel okay. I've got, you know,

00:14:31

I've got issues with knees and joints

00:14:34

and and and things like that, but uh um

00:14:37

nothing nothing major. And I I think I'm

00:14:39

lucky. You know, I I haven't really had

00:14:41

I've had a lot of injuries, but I

00:14:43

haven't had bad injury. And um and it

00:14:46

hasn't um hasn't stopped me from doing

00:14:48

anything. But yeah, that was uh it was a

00:14:51

little odd on the show because um you

00:14:53

know people defer you know straight away

00:14:56

oh you know are you okay? You okay with

00:14:59

this? Can you you need to go up there?

00:15:01

You know they and you're thinking [ __ ]

00:15:03

people are calling you ma. Yeah,

00:15:05

exactly. Mur ko and all these Oh, you

00:15:10

know, you just go cuz actually I was at

00:15:12

the airport one time and I was I don't

00:15:13

know what I was doing there. I was

00:15:14

dropping someone off or picking someone

00:15:16

up. But u I I drove out the wrong way. I

00:15:19

didn't even see the arrows and stuff

00:15:21

like that. There's barely any cars

00:15:23

there. And I drove out the wrong way.

00:15:25

And this other car came in and stopped

00:15:27

and they had to reverse out. And as I

00:15:29

drove out, the guy yelled out, "You're

00:15:31

going the [ __ ] wrong way, Grandpa.

00:15:36

What the [ __ ]

00:15:37

>> Cuz aging's funny, isn't it? Because um

00:15:40

I'm I'm a I'm I'm in my 50s now. I'm a

00:15:42

bit younger than you, but not by much.

00:15:43

And um I don't actually feel any

00:15:45

different. So, but every now and then

00:15:46

you get a glimpse of yourself in the

00:15:48

mirror. You're like, "Oh, shit."

00:15:49

>> That's Oh, yeah. That's I do that

00:15:51

walking along the street and your shop

00:15:53

window and I'm hunched over and I'm I'm

00:15:56

thinking, "Oh, there was uh we did

00:15:58

another um reality thing, the um

00:16:01

>> Oh, matchfit."

00:16:02

>> Matchfit. And uh you know that bears you

00:16:05

right down to the bones but they they

00:16:07

take this um

00:16:09

I can't even remember what it's called

00:16:11

but

00:16:12

you do all these tests all this physical

00:16:14

stuff but then they've got this this

00:16:16

image of you that gets sent and you

00:16:19

don't see it at the time you know we

00:16:21

don't see it until afterwards and when

00:16:22

they send all the paperwork and

00:16:23

everything through to you and um you

00:16:26

know standing on this thing and you're

00:16:27

stripped down to your underpants and

00:16:29

that and just stand there and it's all

00:16:30

right and then they'll say okay and you

00:16:32

got this is you know, your issue and you

00:16:34

got this problem, your cholesterol is

00:16:35

this and and you're sitting there going,

00:16:36

"Fuck," you know, and then when the when

00:16:40

the paperwork comes through, they they

00:16:41

sent and there's an image of you

00:16:43

standing there. [ __ ] you should have

00:16:46

said it. It's Oh, man. I I [ __ ] I hate

00:16:50

looking at you look at it and you know,

00:16:51

you got a gut and you're bent over and

00:16:54

you Oh, it's It was terrible.

00:16:57

>> It's so much vulnerability, isn't it?

00:16:59

It's like literally exposing yourself on

00:17:01

TV.

00:17:01

>> Yep. Yeah.

00:17:02

>> Um, yeah, but you lost your dad at 55 to

00:17:05

a heart attack. Um, so you're 9 years

00:17:07

ahead of where he is. You feeling good?

00:17:09

You feeling optimistic about the future?

00:17:10

>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I um I did say to I was

00:17:14

talking to Dr. Mayhew about it and uh

00:17:18

um you know I go to I barely go to the

00:17:21

doctors even. So I we've had a we've had

00:17:23

a family doctor. remember the days when

00:17:24

doctors used to come to your house and

00:17:26

you know so we had this doctor and he

00:17:29

was at the health center out in uh in

00:17:31

Mangadu where we grew up

00:17:33

>> and uh so one guy and then when he

00:17:37

retired this other guy this English guy

00:17:39

he came over and took his place and

00:17:41

we've been like 50 odd years you know

00:17:44

with this same doctor

00:17:46

>> and uh I go in and see him now since Doc

00:17:49

Mayhew's passed away with rugby I was

00:17:51

always going back to Doc Mayhew but now

00:17:52

I've gone back to um you know to Dr. all

00:17:56

and uh I said I you know barely come in

00:17:59

you know every he goes yeah I think

00:18:01

you're in every 10 years you know for a

00:18:02

blood test or something for a TV show

00:18:04

that you might be doing where you need a

00:18:05

physical I said yeah and he goes oh

00:18:07

you're lucky and I said oh yeah he go I

00:18:09

said oh yeah I've been pretty lucky I

00:18:10

haven't he goes yeah goes but what you

00:18:12

will get is going to kill you

00:18:14

>> so you go but you know my father his his

00:18:18

stuff was my father's stuff was

00:18:22

um bad lifestyle choices you know not

00:18:24

that I haven't made many of them, but um

00:18:27

you know he was a he was a young guy in

00:18:30

the Navy, you know, when they wake him

00:18:32

up in the morning and they drink rum,

00:18:34

you know, the old Navy rum thing and uh

00:18:36

you get a tot of rum and stuff and then

00:18:38

he that's all he did and then came out

00:18:40

of the Navy and you know he worked in in

00:18:43

pubs, managed a couple of pubs around in

00:18:45

Oakuckland and that was his kind of

00:18:46

lifestyle,

00:18:47

>> you know, and um

00:18:49

>> it just caught up with him.

00:18:50

>> Yeah. As it does.

00:18:51

>> Yeah.

00:18:52

>> And you're you're um Yeah. Yeah. You're

00:18:54

in an interesting interesting chapter of

00:18:55

life, eh? So, your dad is six, seven

00:18:56

grandkids.

00:18:57

>> Yep.

00:18:58

>> Yeah. What's the age range of the kids?

00:19:01

>> Um, of the kids, my oldest is 40 now,

00:19:04

and then my youngest is six. I had a

00:19:07

late in life. Uh,

00:19:09

>> well, you could say that half of them

00:19:10

were late in life.

00:19:13

But my oldest um, yeah, my oldest is 40.

00:19:15

He's over in Australia. He's over in

00:19:18

Perth. Um, he's got, um, he's got three

00:19:21

of the kids. uh he's a teacher over

00:19:24

there and he's married to a uh a sour

00:19:27

girl. She's a she was a cop but now

00:19:29

she's studying law over there so they're

00:19:32

all happy. Then um

00:19:35

next one is 35 who my daughter she's

00:19:38

four uh sorry she's got four kids

00:19:40

>> I mean they've just moved to Australia

00:19:42

as well on Saturday and then got a

00:19:45

younger one I can't remember how old he

00:19:46

is he's about 30 31 or something like

00:19:49

that and then still got a couple just

00:19:51

finished one just finished school she's

00:19:52

about 18 now then a 16y old and then a

00:19:56

six

00:19:57

>> yeah what's your how's your parenting

00:19:59

style changed like with the older kids

00:20:00

and the the and the young one Yeah.

00:20:03

There's there's there's there's a lot to

00:20:04

be said about older dads. E like Yeah. I

00:20:06

think a bit of perspective on what's

00:20:07

important and what matters and

00:20:09

>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. And uh and I believe

00:20:11

that I think I'd like to think my uh my

00:20:16

parenting style has changed, you know,

00:20:17

for the better. Um I'm I'm a lot more

00:20:20

conscious of uh you know, what they're

00:20:21

eating. And when I was a bit younger,

00:20:23

when the kids were young, you know, we

00:20:24

were just

00:20:26

um I remember with my son

00:20:30

my middle son, he was uh you know, we

00:20:32

were going down and you know, buying I

00:20:34

don't know, McDonald's or something like

00:20:35

that and uh we're talking about dinner

00:20:38

one evening. He said, "Can can we just

00:20:40

have some vegetables maybe for

00:20:42

what?" But, you know, a lot of the time

00:20:45

I was um, you know, I'd spend a lot of

00:20:48

time by myself with the kids and stuff

00:20:50

and then, you know, and I didn't know

00:20:52

how to cook or anything. You know, I

00:20:54

just generally to be down the road and,

00:20:56

you know, you buy Chinese food, you buy

00:20:57

McDonald's, you buy fish and chips, you

00:20:59

buy whatever, just take the easy road.

00:21:01

But I was um I've always, you know, had

00:21:04

I've got really really good

00:21:06

relationships, great relationships with

00:21:07

my children, which I'm which I'm pretty

00:21:09

proud of. Um, parenting styles now. I'm

00:21:13

I'm a lot more aware of, you know, and

00:21:15

then we didn't have social media really

00:21:17

back then, but a lot more aware now. And

00:21:20

my uh my wife is, she's an American. And

00:21:23

um she's a lot more aware, you know,

00:21:26

she's the one who's driving it. I'm kind

00:21:28

of a little bit more

00:21:30

I wouldn't even say easygoing, just it's

00:21:33

it's probably not a good thing, you

00:21:34

know, where I just Dad, can I watch on

00:21:37

your phone for Yeah. Yeah. He'll be

00:21:38

right, you know.

00:21:40

>> Oh, soft touch.

00:21:40

>> Yeah. And then the wife comes, she goes

00:21:43

on. I said, "Oh, yeah. I I you know, so

00:21:46

I Yeah, I could be better."

00:21:48

>> Yeah. So your wife Jessica um there

00:21:50

there's parallels with your relationship

00:21:51

and my relationship. There's um similar

00:21:53

age gap. You 19 19 20 years?

00:21:56

>> 19 years.

00:21:56

>> Yeah. I'm the same like 20 20 21 years.

00:21:59

Um Yeah. Yeah. How how does that work

00:22:02

out? Cuz that's one of my one of my

00:22:04

concerns with um with Ash. It's like

00:22:06

I'll be 80 and she'll only be 60 or

00:22:08

whatever.

00:22:09

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Jess is a I think

00:22:13

she's kind of an old heart, you know, an

00:22:15

old head um already. So um

00:22:20

yeah, we haven't really had a lot of,

00:22:23

you know, we haven't had issues to be

00:22:26

honest, but um you know, around that,

00:22:28

but um I think

00:22:31

I

00:22:31

>> I feel like you've got quite young

00:22:33

energy.

00:22:33

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:34

>> Like boyish energy.

00:22:36

>> Yeah. Yeah. You could be right there. So

00:22:39

I I I come down, you know, I come down

00:22:41

by 15 years and she has to come up a

00:22:43

little bit and then we meet in the

00:22:44

middle

00:22:45

>> as long as someone's being the adult in

00:22:46

any given time.

00:22:47

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's I hate to say

00:22:49

it, but it's always her.

00:22:50

>> Yeah. you know, but a lot of men do

00:22:52

that. You know, you just take you take

00:22:54

advice and you know, you take direction

00:22:56

from uh from your wife and you like

00:22:58

she's she's in education, you know, her

00:23:01

um

00:23:01

>> her family her whole family are are in

00:23:03

education and they're all they're all

00:23:05

academic, you know, so I think everyone

00:23:08

in their family's got a PhD.

00:23:09

>> Wow. and apart from one sister but um

00:23:13

according to her father that particular

00:23:15

sister who doesn't have the PhD is the

00:23:17

only one who she makes a pile of money

00:23:19

in real estate I think so over in the

00:23:21

states so um

00:23:23

>> it works out

00:23:25

>> I I I saw a quote from her online um she

00:23:28

says when I've asked him where do you

00:23:30

see yourself in 5 to 10 years what do

00:23:32

you enjoy doing he tends not to have a

00:23:34

vision I'd love to see him really get

00:23:36

excited about something and put his

00:23:37

energy into it where do yeah Do you

00:23:40

where do you see yourself in 5 or 10

00:23:42

years?

00:23:43

>> Yeah. See, I can't even answer that to

00:23:46

you. I can't, you know,

00:23:47

>> I've never been one that really

00:23:50

and it's a I must admit it's a bit of a

00:23:52

regret. I've never been one that's

00:23:54

looked ahead too much. I kind of live in

00:23:56

the in the now.

00:23:57

>> Quite cruisy.

00:23:58

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know,

00:24:00

it's good and bad. It sounds good, but,

00:24:02

you know, when you're 64 and you look

00:24:03

back and you go, "Yeah, I could have

00:24:05

done that. I should have, you know,

00:24:06

maybe tried a little harder, you know,

00:24:08

for this. But Jess is um yeah, she she's

00:24:12

the she's the type of person she sets

00:24:13

goals and and she's really driven and

00:24:16

and gets there. And um yeah, she's been

00:24:20

she's been pushing me a little bit, but

00:24:23

man, I I just don't have, you know, I I

00:24:26

like a lot of things. You know, I enjoy

00:24:29

I enjoy so many Oh, I enjoy so many

00:24:32

things, but um but there's nothing

00:24:34

there's no one thing that I'd like to

00:24:36

say, man, I would really love to do that

00:24:38

or to

00:24:40

>> um so I can't even answer.

00:24:43

>> Can't you tell her, chill out? I've done

00:24:45

enough. I've done a lot.

00:24:46

>> I do say that a little bit.

00:24:48

>> Bring up your Wikipedia page. Say, read

00:24:49

this.

00:24:50

>> Yeah, I do say that a little bit. And

00:24:52

then I say, and don't forget, I've been

00:24:53

alive 20 years longer than you have. You

00:24:55

know, I've traveled um there's only one

00:24:59

place that I'd like to go now, I think,

00:25:01

and that's Russia.

00:25:03

>> H

00:25:04

>> um if I had an opportunity to go to

00:25:05

Russia, I'd jump at it. Um everywhere

00:25:09

else, you know, I I feel that I've

00:25:10

traveled and I've seen, you know, a lot

00:25:12

of the world. I've done a lot through

00:25:14

rugby and still doing a lot through

00:25:15

rugby, but I have done otherwise. Um

00:25:19

um but in terms of life itself, you

00:25:22

know, I'm I'm kind of happy with with

00:25:24

the, you know, got my kids and the

00:25:26

grandkids and they're all doing well and

00:25:28

and um I'm I'm just happy in that space.

00:25:31

I think

00:25:32

>> you're content.

00:25:33

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I am. So, um you know,

00:25:37

I don't know. I say to my my kids, you

00:25:39

know, I'll

00:25:41

I'll be um I'll be disappointed if I

00:25:43

don't make 80.

00:25:45

Um I think that'll be my goal. I should

00:25:48

make 70. I've only got six more years,

00:25:50

you know, to get this six. You know

00:25:51

what? Six years goes just like that. So,

00:25:54

um

00:25:55

>> yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't

00:25:56

necessarily have a goal. I don't not

00:25:58

where I want, you know. I just want to

00:25:59

be I just want to be okay. I just want

00:26:01

to be happy, content, stay with that.

00:26:04

>> Kids doing well, family's doing well.

00:26:06

So, you know, I'm all right.

00:26:08

>> I think that's really good. And I've got

00:26:09

no doubt you'll make it to 80. Uh when I

00:26:11

spoke to Lori yesterday, uh he's he's 80

00:26:13

now. Gets up in the morning, does some

00:26:15

like um some stretching and exercises,

00:26:18

plays golf,

00:26:19

>> still shoots round about his age. Um

00:26:21

he's he's very fit and vibrant. As long

00:26:23

as you keep yourself a little bit

00:26:24

active, you can still have a really good

00:26:25

life as you get older.

00:26:26

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think these um you

00:26:28

know, the the reality shows that we go

00:26:30

on

00:26:30

>> that Matchfit was really good. A lot of

00:26:32

them are really good for you, you know.

00:26:34

Um, and and I do, I must admit, I do

00:26:37

prefer the the physical nature of of

00:26:40

different shows. Um, you know, Treasure

00:26:43

Island, you get on there and they go,

00:26:44

"Oh, we got a quizzes coming up today."

00:26:45

And you just go, "Oh, fuck." You know,

00:26:47

but if it's a, you know, running into

00:26:49

the surf and doing that's I'm I'm

00:26:51

happier with that. So, but you know,

00:26:53

match fit, you find out a whole lot

00:26:56

about yourself and about your um, you

00:26:58

know, your issues and um, that goes a

00:27:01

long way and it's it's well you

00:27:04

obviously go into a lot more detail, you

00:27:06

know, with matcha, but it's nothing that

00:27:08

you haven't heard before. You know,

00:27:09

don't do this, don't eat too much of

00:27:10

that, don't, you know, do that. And uh

00:27:13

when you're young, you can sort of

00:27:14

disregard all of that, which I did. But

00:27:17

now I'm a lot more aware, you know, and

00:27:19

my diet's better. I still eat I love

00:27:21

chocolate, and you know, I still eat a

00:27:23

lot of sweets and stuff like that, but I

00:27:25

also eat um a more balanced um meal, a

00:27:30

better diet. And you know, Jess is um

00:27:33

you know, is is responsible to that. Not

00:27:36

saying that other my other partners, you

00:27:38

know, in the past haven't tried, but you

00:27:40

know, you don't take notice until you're

00:27:42

64.

00:27:43

>> Do you um do you do you sneak chocolate?

00:27:45

So like after this you you drive back

00:27:47

home to Puka, which is about a 45minute

00:27:49

drive. Um will you have some chocolate

00:27:51

and dispose of the rapper so she

00:27:52

doesn't?

00:27:54

>> Probably. Maybe not. It depends what

00:27:56

time it is. You know, I don't need

00:27:57

chocolate in the morning. Go on. I'm not

00:27:58

that bad.

00:28:00

But uh yeah. Yeah, I do that. I go up,

00:28:03

you know, go up the road and get some

00:28:04

milk or do and it's like, you know,

00:28:07

there's a

00:28:09

peanut slab or something. Oh, no. All

00:28:11

right. And then eat that and Yeah. And

00:28:13

then get the wrapper out of the car, put

00:28:15

in your pocket, and then walk in, put

00:28:16

the milk there, and then

00:28:18

>> Yeah.

00:28:18

>> I There's so many dudes doing that.

00:28:20

>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's before dinner,

00:28:21

too. So, you know, Oh, yeah.

00:28:23

>> Or going to Bunnings and just like

00:28:25

having a couple of sausages really,

00:28:27

really quickly before anyone finds out.

00:28:28

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:29

>> Hey, let's um go back and we'll talk

00:28:31

about your early years and then we'll

00:28:32

build up to this um fantastic rugby

00:28:33

career you had. So um one of eight kids,

00:28:36

big family.

00:28:37

>> Yep.

00:28:37

>> Your mom Seifa.

00:28:38

>> Yep.

00:28:39

>> Is she still alive?

00:28:40

>> No. No. She passed about oh 10 probably

00:28:44

about 10 years ago or so.

00:28:45

>> Yeah.

00:28:46

>> Yeah. She um and it feel like it came on

00:28:49

you know quite quickly. I don't really I

00:28:51

don't know what you know what the cause

00:28:53

was but um she started getting a little

00:28:56

bit sick and said had some some women

00:28:58

some female issues um but um yeah I felt

00:29:04

like you know it she made a trip to

00:29:05

Australia and then came back and she was

00:29:07

suffering a little bit went into

00:29:09

hospital and and never came out but um

00:29:12

yeah for me seems like it it came on

00:29:15

quickly.

00:29:16

>> Yeah. How old was she? She was um

00:29:21

70

00:29:22

kind of early to mid70s. I don't don't

00:29:24

know exactly.

00:29:25

>> Right.

00:29:26

>> And she um she had eight kids. You're

00:29:28

one of eight.

00:29:29

>> Yep.

00:29:29

>> Where are you in the birth order?

00:29:31

>> Third.

00:29:31

>> Third.

00:29:32

>> Yeah. She had uh my first two sisters um

00:29:36

they were born in the same year. So one

00:29:39

was January and then one the other one

00:29:41

in December of the same year. So my

00:29:44

father was in the Navy. So the joke is,

00:29:46

you know, he'd go off and do his stuff

00:29:48

and then come home and, you know,

00:29:51

reconnect.

00:29:52

>> What was um you know, what were some of

00:29:54

the values from your upbringing that

00:29:55

like still guide you today or still sit

00:29:57

with you?

00:29:57

>> Um a lot of it a lot of it family,

00:30:01

>> you know, um

00:30:04

accepting accepting people. My mother

00:30:06

was always the one that drove every, you

00:30:09

know, didn't matter who you were. and

00:30:11

you know partners come and go and you

00:30:12

know they sometimes they come with kids

00:30:14

sometimes they don't you know but

00:30:16

everybody was was a member of the family

00:30:18

and they were all treated the same and

00:30:20

you know I think it's I think from her

00:30:23

um

00:30:25

you know you you accept and you you

00:30:27

treat people

00:30:29

>> well you know and uh and I think um

00:30:34

>> yeah yeah yeah that from her my father

00:30:36

was a he was a really hard you know when

00:30:38

he came out of the Navy and stuff and

00:30:40

you know, eight kids, one one income.

00:30:44

Well, it was one person bringing the

00:30:45

money in. My mother was busy raising the

00:30:48

children, but um you know, my father was

00:30:50

working two full-time jobs. Um

00:30:54

>> and uh you know, I think that took his

00:30:55

toll.

00:30:56

>> Um

00:30:57

>> it's a lot of pressure.

00:30:58

>> It's a lot of pressure. A lot of mouths

00:30:59

to feed.

00:31:00

>> Yeah. And you don't realize until you,

00:31:01

you know, you later on, but I never, you

00:31:03

know, we didn't have, you know,

00:31:06

>> well, no, I suppose we were poor, but

00:31:08

you didn't feel like, you know, we

00:31:10

weren't destitute or anything like that.

00:31:11

You know, we we never wanted,

00:31:14

>> you know, we couldn't afford, you know,

00:31:15

the luxuries, but we didn't want for

00:31:17

anything. I was never hungry. I can

00:31:18

never remember being hungry or or, you

00:31:20

know, not having something that I really

00:31:22

needed or things like that. But and it's

00:31:24

not until it's not until later on years

00:31:27

and years later when you when you're in

00:31:28

that same position, you know, and you

00:31:30

think, geez, my father was, you know,

00:31:32

working all night, he'd come home, you

00:31:34

know, he'd have breakfast or he'd have

00:31:36

something and he might have an hour or

00:31:37

two before he had to go to another job

00:31:39

and then do that and then come home and

00:31:40

then he'd have a couple of hours, few

00:31:42

hours sleep, and then he'd go back to

00:31:43

his, you know, and you go, how how can

00:31:45

you do that? And keep doing it for years

00:31:47

and years and years. So um you know that

00:31:51

uh all all that stuff you know when you

00:31:54

when you get a little bit older and you

00:31:55

and you start thinking about it it means

00:31:57

it means a whole lot more you know the

00:31:59

things the sacrifice that that parents

00:32:02

you know make for their children and you

00:32:04

don't you don't know about it until you

00:32:06

are in that position. Well, you only

00:32:08

know what you know. I like I I grew up

00:32:11

in Palmer North in the 80s and I I I

00:32:13

thought we were sort of poor and I look

00:32:14

back now and we were just very middle

00:32:16

class, you know, three bedrooms,

00:32:18

>> one bathroom and was only until you go

00:32:20

go to a friend's place that's got like

00:32:21

um like nicer biscuits or blue toilet in

00:32:25

the water. I was like, "Oh [ __ ] that's

00:32:27

that's rich." So, how many how many

00:32:29

bathrooms in your house growing up? Just

00:32:30

the one.

00:32:31

>> Just the one. Yeah.

00:32:32

>> So, you would have never had your own

00:32:33

bedroom?

00:32:34

>> Nope. Nope. Always shared. And every now

00:32:36

and then, you know, we'd swap, you know,

00:32:38

siblings and uh we didn't we didn't have

00:32:41

a shower, you know. We had a just a

00:32:43

bath. So, um I don't can't remember the

00:32:46

first time I lived in a place with a

00:32:48

shower. Um but we had a we had a

00:32:51

washroom there with a little, you know,

00:32:53

with the old and you know, early on back

00:32:55

in the day was one of those ones with

00:32:57

the old ringers, you know, that you'd

00:32:59

you'd uh thing the clothes through.

00:33:01

There was no there was no dryers or

00:33:02

anything. was always hanging the clothes

00:33:04

out on the on the clothes line. Um,

00:33:08

and then separate toilet and then

00:33:10

separate bathroom just with a with a

00:33:11

bath and you know, we just made it work.

00:33:14

>> Was it shared bath water?

00:33:16

>> Uh, yeah. Yeah, it was.

00:33:18

>> Yeah. How many? I remember cuz I was one

00:33:20

of four. So, from memory, we did an

00:33:22

order. So, it was oldest to youngest.

00:33:24

So, I was

00:33:24

>> I think it was always oldest to

00:33:25

youngest.

00:33:26

>> Second with the but if you're not first

00:33:27

then it's soapy ass. It looks dirty.

00:33:30

Yeah, but I think if we had cousins

00:33:31

staying over, then after like four,

00:33:33

they'd drain the plug and refill it.

00:33:35

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how

00:33:36

many how many would go through it. But

00:33:38

uh

00:33:39

>> I'm pretty sure it wasn't eight.

00:33:40

>> Mhm. What were your first memories of

00:33:42

rugby?

00:33:44

>> Um so we lived where we lived um

00:33:49

was ah was walking distance then, but

00:33:52

you had to walk everywhere back then. Um

00:33:54

up at the Manal Rugby Club and um I went

00:33:58

up there. I would have been I don't know

00:34:00

seven or eight years old you know when I

00:34:02

first started um organized sport

00:34:06

everything else was just playing out in

00:34:08

the you know because you were just free

00:34:10

to do anything in those days and uh I

00:34:12

can't recall that we had oh I don't know

00:34:15

I think we had bit of sport at school

00:34:17

primary school intermediate school you

00:34:19

know and then college was after that but

00:34:21

um um yeah my my first thoughts were

00:34:24

just going up there and just running

00:34:26

around you know barefoot with with a

00:34:28

whole lot of other people. Not certainly

00:34:30

not organized.

00:34:31

>> Um or they they might have thought it

00:34:33

was but um you know you just you just

00:34:35

get up there and do do whatever you

00:34:37

want. But um I went to I went up there

00:34:40

and I watched so the club Manuel it was

00:34:44

situated in Onihunga. Um but then but

00:34:47

then they got this just in time for me.

00:34:49

They got this um this field and new club

00:34:51

room set up in Mang. And uh the opening

00:34:54

game they got all these guys to come

00:34:57

down and um and play in the match and

00:35:00

Brian Williams BG he was playing in it

00:35:02

and I remember

00:35:04

>> I remember going up to him and getting

00:35:05

his after the game getting his signature

00:35:08

>> and uh he stood on my on my foot with

00:35:11

you know cuz they had steel springs in

00:35:13

those days too and I always always

00:35:15

remember that because he stood on my

00:35:17

foot but um you know I gave him the

00:35:20

thing and all that and there was a whole

00:35:21

lot of people around and boom and stood

00:35:23

on the foot was like and uh he just

00:35:25

signed the thing and I've told him that

00:35:26

many a time.

00:35:28

>> He was a big star, right?

00:35:29

>> Oh, he was massive. Massive legs.

00:35:31

>> Yeah, we we were we were uh we were a

00:35:34

rugby family. We're a sports family and

00:35:36

that was a that was always a great

00:35:38

memory cuz we'd we'd in our lounge in

00:35:40

our sitting room, you know, we had a TV

00:35:42

and uh there'd be 10 of us, you know,

00:35:45

lying around watching the All Blacks

00:35:47

play, you know, when they're over in the

00:35:49

UK or whatever. you know, get up in the

00:35:50

morning, everybody would get up and

00:35:51

you'd have your cups of tea and your

00:35:53

biscuits or whatever and um and just sit

00:35:56

there and watch. And, you know, Brian

00:35:58

Williams was a was always a favorite in

00:36:00

our household. So, um you know, it was a

00:36:02

it was a pleasure and honor to, you

00:36:05

know, to to actually become a you know,

00:36:07

a friend of his and then be kind of

00:36:09

taken under his wing a little bit. So,

00:36:11

um

00:36:12

>> yeah. Yeah, that was, you know,

00:36:15

>> with with you, what was um what was the

00:36:18

percentage of talent versus just hard

00:36:20

work? Were you naturally talented?

00:36:22

>> Uh to a point.

00:36:26

And

00:36:28

I didn't like hard work until until I

00:36:31

had to, you know, I had to do it.

00:36:33

Funnily enough, I don't mind hard work.

00:36:35

I don't mind hard work. Um well

00:36:37

especially so now but uh I think it's

00:36:41

probably Lori that really you know

00:36:43

showed me what I could do and uh I you

00:36:47

know my school reports could do better.

00:36:50

>> I never applied himself.

00:36:51

>> He never applied himself. Yeah. You know

00:36:53

always you know too social always off

00:36:56

talking to someone always you know doing

00:36:58

this could do a lot better you know and

00:36:59

that sort of I was that sort of kid all

00:37:01

the way through and I passed. I was I

00:37:03

was always in the top classes and things

00:37:05

like that and and um but you know I was

00:37:08

too busy having a you know having fun

00:37:10

and um

00:37:13

um yeah I you know I never really I I

00:37:18

guess when I was younger I had the

00:37:19

talent to get me into certain positions

00:37:22

but then I' I never you know I'd get to

00:37:25

the trials of a of a an age grade rep

00:37:28

team or something like that but I'd

00:37:29

never get picked. I'd get go through all

00:37:31

of the things but never quite make that

00:37:32

last one. And you know that that went on

00:37:35

for quite a few years but I was I was

00:37:36

doing all right at the club and you know

00:37:38

I was I was I was all right. I was

00:37:40

playing and never really had any any

00:37:42

thoughts of of you know I would have

00:37:44

loved to have been an all black but how

00:37:48

hard was it was I you know was I ready

00:37:50

to work and it turned out that not that

00:37:52

hard.

00:37:54

>> Yeah. Was was that like your dream? You

00:37:56

know, like like a lot of kids that even

00:37:58

today still have the dream of like um

00:38:00

you know, representing New Zealand and

00:38:01

playing for the Orbs. Was that a dream

00:38:03

for you or

00:38:03

>> It wasn't until I until I started, you

00:38:06

know, I did make a couple of, you know,

00:38:08

of those teams. I never really thought

00:38:10

it possible early on and didn't think

00:38:12

too much about it, but um

00:38:15

uh when I started making a a couple of

00:38:18

age grade teams and and things like that

00:38:20

and then then I thought, oh, and you

00:38:21

know, then I made a Oakland C team, an

00:38:23

Oakland Beat, you know, and I was kind

00:38:25

of hovering around that and I was

00:38:26

thinking, oh yeah, this could, you know,

00:38:28

you never know. Um

00:38:31

>> and I but the thing with me, I just did

00:38:33

what I had to do to get through, you

00:38:35

know, I did enough. Um but it wasn't

00:38:37

quite enough to you know take the next

00:38:39

step and um and I you know I was lucky I

00:38:43

think um you know the sour that

00:38:45

opportunity Peter Fats you know he was

00:38:47

always he was always at me so it's my on

00:38:50

my mother's side she's new um her father

00:38:53

was half sour and uh back in those days

00:38:57

you know that was enough but

00:38:59

>> you don't need to justify it played for

00:39:01

Sam for a couple of games.

00:39:02

>> Exactly. Exactly. Um so uh yeah, Fats

00:39:07

was always and some weren't in the first

00:39:09

World Cup, you know, but so um there was

00:39:11

a bit of an affront to them, but they um

00:39:14

just kept pushing and pushing Peter

00:39:15

Fats. So I thought, ah cuz he said to

00:39:18

me, he goes, "You're going to have to

00:39:20

face it." He goes, "You're never going

00:39:21

to be a [ __ ] All black." I said, and

00:39:24

he goes, "Come on, man." He goes, "This

00:39:25

is the opportunity, you know, do." And I

00:39:27

said, "Yeah, I think you might be

00:39:28

right." Cuz yeah, you know, as you say,

00:39:29

I was I was what 20

00:39:32

>> mid 20s at that time.

00:39:33

>> Yeah. 27ish

00:39:35

and it played for Aland, you know, I was

00:39:37

kind of I was thinking, oh well, you

00:39:38

know, did all right, but um yeah, when

00:39:42

that that door opened and I thought, oh

00:39:44

yeah, I will do that. Then jumped in and

00:39:46

that was all good and then it went on

00:39:47

from there and uh and you know,

00:39:49

obviously Lori was watching. So, uh but

00:39:53

I was never really really pushed, you

00:39:56

know. Um Lori came on and I'd never met

00:39:59

anyone. Well, I know to be honest, we

00:40:01

had a guy, Elby Prior, who was our club

00:40:03

coach, and he was kind of like Lori,

00:40:04

too. You know, where you were actually

00:40:06

physically scared. Um, so, um, but Lori,

00:40:12

he pushed, um, I I just found that I

00:40:16

liked that style, you know, I didn't

00:40:17

care that I got yelled at. Um, you know,

00:40:20

we got pushed and pushed and pushed and

00:40:22

then I realized, hey, I can do this. you

00:40:24

know, the harder he pushed cuz there

00:40:26

were guys, you know, we had guys that

00:40:28

were spewing on the sidelines after his

00:40:30

trainings or, you know, injured and

00:40:33

well, you know, he didn't care. It was

00:40:35

just, you know, well, [ __ ] off then. If

00:40:37

you can't finish training, [ __ ] grab

00:40:39

your gear and [ __ ] off. You're no use to

00:40:40

us. So, you know, people would sort of

00:40:42

get up and meekly sort of um sneak off.

00:40:47

But I, you know, I

00:40:48

>> You thrived in Yeah, I did. I enjoyed

00:40:50

it. I was like, you know, this is all

00:40:52

good. you just push and push and push

00:40:54

and you just got further and further and

00:40:56

further. So, um and I Yeah. And then I

00:40:59

found that I didn't mind being yelled

00:41:00

at, you know, being abused. You just go

00:41:03

in this, you know, listen to one out the

00:41:05

other.

00:41:07

>> So,

00:41:08

>> so rugby was um you you covered a lot of

00:41:10

ground. You covered like two World Cups

00:41:12

in that one answer just then. Um so, I

00:41:15

just want to unpack that slowly. While

00:41:16

this was all going on, were you working

00:41:18

on a rubbish truck?

00:41:19

>> Um

00:41:20

>> was that just a short chapter of time?

00:41:21

No, I was actually on the truck for

00:41:24

would have been a few years. So I think

00:41:25

leading up to that sour

00:41:28

to that first World Cup I was and a

00:41:31

little bit after that actually

00:41:32

>> cuz Rob was amateur then so there was no

00:41:34

money. You got 30 DMs maybe like a day

00:41:36

range or something else.

00:41:37

>> You know it was like you know 20 bucks

00:41:39

or something 30 bucks.

00:41:41

>> Um not really enough to send home to the

00:41:43

wife and say here pay the bills.

00:41:46

>> Here's $44. Pay the bills and feed the

00:41:49

kids.

00:41:49

>> Don't spend it all at once. Exactly. Um

00:41:53

uh yeah. Yeah. I I was I was working on

00:41:55

the rubbish trucks then and um

00:42:00

oh yeah that just I don't even know how

00:42:02

that came up actually. I you know I was

00:42:04

I didn't have a career like a set career

00:42:07

path. Um funnily enough I was you know I

00:42:11

was just going through life. I was

00:42:13

playing rugby. People um people were

00:42:16

giving me jobs you know around rugby. Um

00:42:22

yeah, I I would just go I you know

00:42:24

really when I look back now you know I

00:42:26

should have committed to something and I

00:42:27

I tell the kids and I tell whoever I'm

00:42:29

talking to you know go I haven't been in

00:42:31

school so obvious for a long time to

00:42:33

talk to kids and stuff like that but I

00:42:34

always used to tell them about you know

00:42:37

setting yourself up first cuz you know

00:42:40

as we know it can be all over in a you

00:42:42

know in a heartbeat. So, um I should

00:42:45

have done that, but um but it kind of

00:42:48

worked out.

00:42:49

>> Yeah. The rubbish truck thing would have

00:42:51

been good for fitness, right?

00:42:52

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:53

>> Jump jump jumping on and off the back of

00:42:54

a truck just running around K's every

00:42:56

day.

00:42:57

>> Y

00:42:57

>> you wouldn't have had a GPS, so you

00:42:58

wouldn't know your step count, but you

00:43:00

would have been covering a lot of miles

00:43:01

every day.

00:43:01

>> We were, you know, you're running for um

00:43:04

>> you'd be running for hours a day. Um and

00:43:08

and a discipline too because you like we

00:43:11

started at 6:00. So, you know, you'd

00:43:14

have to get out of bed at 5:00, get

00:43:16

yourself sorted, get to work. We used to

00:43:18

um meet in Pam Muer actually and um at

00:43:21

the swimming pool there and we'd start

00:43:23

at 6:00 and every day 6:00 till, you

00:43:27

know, we'd be finished

00:43:29

at lunchtime or, you know, 1:00. They

00:43:32

were the latest days. And you know that

00:43:34

whole time you were just pounding the

00:43:37

street and carrying stuff. So it was

00:43:38

really good in in more ways than one,

00:43:40

you know, not just physically but

00:43:42

mentally as well. And um I think you

00:43:45

know that that sort of stuff carried

00:43:46

over. I got I got started getting a few

00:43:48

league offers actually and I went over I

00:43:50

remember I was on the rubbish trucks at

00:43:52

one point and I went over and did a

00:43:53

fitness test at Newcastle at the Knights

00:43:56

and uh and came up. I think I was only I

00:44:00

was second to um Sam Stewart who was a

00:44:03

Kiwi captain back in those days and that

00:44:05

was all down to my um to my rubber truck

00:44:08

stuff. All the fitness fitness.

00:44:10

>> Yeah. Yeah. So um they thought I was

00:44:12

awesome.

00:44:13

>> This guy's fit.

00:44:15

>> How did how did you um how did you have

00:44:16

the energy for training and stuff?

00:44:19

>> Um you just got used to it. It was um

00:44:22

you know you'd finish at lunchtime,

00:44:24

you'd have a have lunch and that and

00:44:26

you'd have a little nap and then you

00:44:28

could train again later on. You just got

00:44:30

the body just got used to it. Became it

00:44:32

became normal. Didn't even think about

00:44:34

you know and I guess and you could eat

00:44:37

whatever you wanted. You could you could

00:44:40

do whatever you wanted. Um you know I

00:44:43

guess the body's a a wonderful thing.

00:44:45

You just you fuel it and it'll work for

00:44:48

you.

00:44:48

>> Actually he's previous podcast guest

00:44:50

probably about the same age as you. Mark

00:44:51

Graham.

00:44:52

>> Yeah.

00:44:52

>> Uh yeah. I think he was a brick layer.

00:44:54

So he'd work as a brick layer, then he'd

00:44:55

have a loaf of bread and go to Carl Park

00:44:57

for a training and

00:44:58

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You You just

00:45:00

>> You guys were built different.

00:45:01

>> Yeah. I we'd eat pie like um so we'd

00:45:04

start at 6:00 and then the first the

00:45:06

first sort of um first load was about 2

00:45:12

hours but by the time you're going to

00:45:14

you know to um to drop the load at the

00:45:16

uh at the local tip um you know it's

00:45:19

kind of 8:00 or something like that and

00:45:22

uh you'd eat pies. you just buy pies and

00:45:24

at the gas station and that's all you

00:45:26

know pie pie at 8:00 or two pies or

00:45:30

something and then um your next meal was

00:45:33

um was lunch. You go home and you have

00:45:35

lunch and have a sleep. I don't know. It

00:45:37

was just it just worked.

00:45:39

>> But

00:45:40

>> when when did you first go to a gym? Gym

00:45:42

wasn't a thing back then.

00:45:43

>> No, no, no. Um first gym I ever went to.

00:45:47

Oh gee.

00:45:50

Um I can't recall I think it might have

00:45:53

been remember Jim Blair he was uh he was

00:45:56

a coach with the fitness he was the

00:45:58

first I think uh Scottish guy he was the

00:46:00

first guy um who became a um you know

00:46:04

the fitness trainers with the he was

00:46:06

with the Oakland team

00:46:07

>> and um I think I went to his gym first

00:46:09

in Kyber Pass.

00:46:12

Uh yeah, I went I remember going for a

00:46:15

um going for a fitness test actually for

00:46:17

Oakland and we went up there and uh

00:46:20

doing had to do this rowing test and

00:46:22

cycling all this, you know, was all

00:46:24

getting a lot more scientific then. Got

00:46:26

through it, hopped in the car afterwards

00:46:29

to come home. Sat in the car, got all

00:46:31

dizzy and just vomited all over the

00:46:34

inside of the windscreen.

00:46:37

Oh yay.

00:46:39

>> Yeah. So, so two World Cups. Um, there

00:46:41

was the 1991 one for Samoa. Um, and you

00:46:45

guys did really well at quarterfinals.

00:46:47

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:48

>> Yeah. That was amazing.

00:46:49

>> Oh, it was so

00:46:50

>> What was that like?

00:46:51

>> That was so good. We um that was the

00:46:54

probably the one of the worst games we

00:46:56

played making that semi uh quarter

00:46:58

against Scotland. But um the whole

00:47:02

you know from the from the very very

00:47:03

beginning you know it meant so much to

00:47:06

Samour um you know to have a team that

00:47:09

was that they I mean they loved their

00:47:11

rugby they are so passionate um but you

00:47:15

know from the beginning where so you

00:47:17

know we had nothing but we'd go back and

00:47:19

we'd we'd raise we raised money to to

00:47:22

enable us to go and uh that's selling

00:47:24

raffle tickets you know the old pig in a

00:47:27

barrerow one where you walk around and

00:47:29

and sell raffle tickets and and um but

00:47:33

so we did that and man it was it was so

00:47:35

good. Went back to Selma, played in the

00:47:37

trials and things like that and you know

00:47:39

some a lot of the island boys and it was

00:47:41

and it was hard rugby back then too but

00:47:44

um you know they had they had their goal

00:47:47

um good coaching group, good heap of

00:47:51

good players and um get over there. the

00:47:54

good thing, you know, we we kind of took

00:47:56

we took them by surprise really the you

00:47:58

know, the rugby world

00:48:00

>> and um

00:48:01

>> I I don't think the power of um of of

00:48:04

the Polynesian, you know, was was that

00:48:06

well known up in the UK, you know, in

00:48:08

terms of sport uh way back then.

00:48:11

certainly, you know, down here um

00:48:14

appreciated, but uh you get up there and

00:48:16

you know, we we went to Cardiff and and

00:48:20

uh and spent a week there, trained, lost

00:48:23

a few people through injury, you know,

00:48:25

over the over the week or so that we

00:48:26

were there and um and then, you know,

00:48:29

built up for our first game against

00:48:31

Wales in Cardiff. And that was just a

00:48:34

you know, all years you've been sitting

00:48:36

there watching, you know, the All Blacks

00:48:38

play Wales and Cardiff. um Carter Farms

00:48:41

Park, the old the old one there. And it

00:48:43

was just so it was so and we were

00:48:45

treated really really well, you know,

00:48:48

everyone um

00:48:50

>> a lot of respect for the uh for the

00:48:52

Welsh and um get out there and then, you

00:48:55

know, we beat them and that was just

00:48:57

that was the beginning of so many things

00:49:00

for for a lot of people and um beat

00:49:03

them. I think I think um man I think we

00:49:08

sent sent about three or four of them

00:49:10

off you know having you know just Brian

00:49:13

Lear and you know a few Apollo Perilini

00:49:16

those guys just you know I think Apollo

00:49:18

Perilini broke two collarbones himself

00:49:21

um you know of the

00:49:22

>> he tackled hard. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. And

00:49:24

and Brian Limar, you know, they he went

00:49:26

on to become known as the chiropractor

00:49:29

just because of the way that he, you

00:49:30

know, I was saying to people, man, cuz I

00:49:32

had to mark him. And there was another

00:49:34

guy um Freddy Tuangi and uh his brothers

00:49:39

have gone on now. They're playing for

00:49:41

England and well, they they did play,

00:49:42

but um those guys, oh, you know, Brian

00:49:45

Lema, the chiropractor, you know, and

00:49:47

he's playing rugby at 35, you know, 40

00:49:50

years old and still hammering people.

00:49:52

said, "Man, you should have you should

00:49:54

have seen him when he was 18, 19 years

00:49:56

old, 20 years old." And we had to we

00:49:59

went over to Sour and played in a trial

00:50:01

and you know, I can't remember who I

00:50:02

was. Oh, Vayinga was this other guy, but

00:50:05

we had marking Brian Lear and Fred

00:50:08

Duangi. They were the two midfielders

00:50:11

and oh, there was another guy, Keneti.

00:50:14

But man, it was it was tough. It was

00:50:17

hard work but uh you know everything

00:50:20

that that did for sour and rugby um you

00:50:23

know so worth it and uh I I would have

00:50:26

had nothing if I hadn't been able to uh

00:50:29

to play for them. So

00:50:30

>> yeah as a result of that at the age of

00:50:32

30 that's how your all black call up.

00:50:35

You must have thought that ship had

00:50:36

sailed eh.

00:50:36

>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Definitely.

00:50:38

>> And then how does that come about? Do

00:50:39

you get a call from from Lorie Mains or

00:50:41

is it from Colin Me who was the team

00:50:43

manager?

00:50:43

>> It was Lori actually. Lori. Was he nice

00:50:45

to you in that call?

00:50:46

>> Oh, kind of. Kind of. Um, he uh

00:50:52

yeah, so we we did that and you know I

00:50:54

was lucky because um you know the All

00:50:56

Blacks hadn't gone well in the in the

00:50:59

same World Cup. Um and there'd been a

00:51:01

change of um you know of coaching and

00:51:03

management and Lori had been appointed

00:51:06

and then yeah I get a phone call and um

00:51:08

and he asked you know is Lori Mains

00:51:10

here? Oh yeah. Then he goes, "Um, well,

00:51:14

um, I'm thinking," he goes, "You know,

00:51:16

told me, I've been the co I've been

00:51:17

appointed coach and blah, blah, blah."

00:51:19

Which I already knew, but I, so I'm

00:51:21

thinking, um, you know, would you like

00:51:24

an opportunity? And I was like, what?

00:51:26

And he goes, um, if I picked you, you

00:51:29

know, would you, you know, would you,

00:51:31

um, like the, would you take the

00:51:32

opportunity, you know, blah, blah, blah.

00:51:34

I was going, oh yeah, um, yeah. And he

00:51:36

goes, I'm not promising anything. He

00:51:38

goes, you got to perform. He goes, I'll

00:51:39

name you. And he goes, "You perform."

00:51:42

And then he said, "You know, I didn't

00:51:43

promise anything and it's up to you." I

00:51:45

was like, he goes, "But he goes, if if

00:51:49

you want it, I'll give it to you." I was

00:51:51

like, "Right." Then I had to go about,

00:51:54

you know, I had to think about I had to

00:51:55

go and talk to a few people, but you

00:51:58

know, born in New Zealand, um, and a

00:52:02

rugby person born in New Zealand,

00:52:04

especially in those days, you know, you

00:52:05

wanted to be an all black. And yeah, I

00:52:08

did think the um the ship had sailed,

00:52:11

but um you know, opportunity came back

00:52:14

and then I thought, man,

00:52:16

>> if if I'm really really honest, I just I

00:52:18

guess even by the time I'd hung up, um I

00:52:21

knew that what I was going to do, but I

00:52:23

had to go through the process of, you

00:52:25

know, man, what should I, you know,

00:52:27

what's the balancing act? Ask Peter

00:52:29

Fats. And he was like, [ __ ] He goes,

00:52:32

you know, all those years, you know,

00:52:34

I've been trying to get you and you come

00:52:35

and you just were. So he started calling

00:52:37

me Frank once.

00:52:40

He goes, "Oh, [ __ ] Frank once." Yeah.

00:52:42

Oh.

00:52:44

Um, yeah. So I told Lori, "Yep, yep.

00:52:46

Okay, I'm in." So that was that.

00:52:49

>> And the timing couldn't have been better

00:52:50

cuz that's just when rugby was going

00:52:51

from amateur to professional.

00:52:53

>> Yeah. What was that like?

00:52:54

>> No. Oh, well, no, that was 1992 and it

00:52:57

went professional in 96.

00:53:00

>> But uh

00:53:01

>> Oh, okay. Right. Right.

00:53:02

>> Yeah. But um

00:53:05

Yeah. Oh, that that was

00:53:08

uh in terms of it was difficult, you

00:53:12

know, because um you had to rejig

00:53:14

everything, you know, everything you'd

00:53:16

been doing for years and years and

00:53:17

years. So, you know, this year is the

00:53:19

30th anniversary of Super Rugby and uh

00:53:22

or professionalism, but Super Rugby. And

00:53:25

um we had a uh when the Chiefs played

00:53:28

their first home game this season,

00:53:29

there's a group of the you know players

00:53:31

from the first very first Chiefs team

00:53:33

that went down for a little bit of a

00:53:35

celebration and um I think all of the

00:53:37

Super Rugby teams have been doing it.

00:53:39

But we go down there and then we're all

00:53:40

having a you know reminiscing

00:53:43

um but you didn't know what was going

00:53:45

on. Uh Brad Morant who was our North

00:53:47

Harbor coach he came down he was our

00:53:49

first chief's coach and Sid going and

00:53:52

you know but you go down and you're a

00:53:54

professional rugby player professional

00:53:56

footballer.

00:53:58

How does that work? Um

00:54:00

>> what does it mean?

00:54:01

>> Nobody knows you know as far as a few of

00:54:03

us concerned it was just like oh well

00:54:05

now we we just get paid you know

00:54:07

everything we've been doing our whole

00:54:08

lives now we get paid to do. Not quite.

00:54:12

But um that's how we looked at it. But

00:54:15

it was finding out. Um so how many times

00:54:20

a day do you train? Well, you know, what

00:54:21

do you do? Um I remember Brad, he's

00:54:24

like, "So, you know, you always train

00:54:26

and then forwards will go off and do

00:54:28

their line outs and do, you know, all

00:54:30

the backs, you know, go out and, you

00:54:31

know, do whatever whatever plays and

00:54:33

moves that they had." But you do that in

00:54:36

the morning and you come back and you

00:54:37

have lunch and then you go, "Now what do

00:54:40

we do? Gym sessions." And we'd never

00:54:42

been to the gym before, you know, and

00:54:43

you're just going, "Fuck." Uh, okay. And

00:54:46

then Brad's like goes, "Okay, forwards.

00:54:49

Forwards. Um, 2:00 we're going to go

00:54:51

down the park and we're going to do some

00:54:53

lineouts." Okay. Okay. Beexs, um, well,

00:54:57

you can come, too. And we were going,

00:54:59

"Oh, [ __ ] What do we want to go? What

00:55:00

are we going for? Fuck." be a winner. He

00:55:02

goes, you know, he's like, "Stop the

00:55:04

[ __ ] He goes, I'm the boss." And he

00:55:05

goes, "If I tell you to [ __ ] go and

00:55:07

sit under that [ __ ] tree, he goes,

00:55:09

you'll go and sit under that tree." And

00:55:11

uh he goes, "You work for me now." And

00:55:13

you know, it was all all the games then

00:55:15

were 7:30 um at night rather than rather

00:55:19

than 2:30 or 3:00 kickoff. So then you

00:55:21

had to figure out, you know, the rest

00:55:24

and the when do you eat and, you know,

00:55:27

um how to prepare yourself to be, you

00:55:29

know, at your best at 7:30 at night

00:55:31

rather than 3:00. And then, you know,

00:55:32

you finish playing and then you and then

00:55:35

you um

00:55:38

they have they started all their warm

00:55:39

downs and recovery sessions and stuff

00:55:41

like that and that was all totally new.

00:55:43

So everything we were kind of guinea

00:55:44

pigs really everything was totally new.

00:55:47

um you know around around how to prepare

00:55:51

and then how to recover and how to act.

00:55:53

Um as a professional you know you play a

00:55:55

game at 7:30 2 hours later or so it

00:55:58

finishes then you go in and then you

00:56:01

shower up and you do what you have to do

00:56:02

and then you're like well we got to go

00:56:04

out for a few beers you know but it's

00:56:06

midnight by then. That's probably where

00:56:08

Prince of Darkness came in cuz it's

00:56:10

midnight by then and

00:56:13

you know it's hard to go out and find a

00:56:14

bar that's open you know.

00:56:15

>> Yeah.

00:56:16

>> At midnight. But

00:56:19

>> anyway,

00:56:20

>> what do you remember of your all black

00:56:21

debut?

00:56:23

>> Um we lost but um

00:56:26

>> who was that against?

00:56:27

>> That was uh a world 15. We played

00:56:30

against the World 15 and uh and we lost

00:56:34

and I remember thinking um because my

00:56:38

brother actually my youngest brother um

00:56:41

before that first game he he rings me up

00:56:44

and he goes you know all good. I said

00:56:46

yeah yep yep you know

00:56:49

he goes [ __ ] don't embarrass us.

00:56:52

said, "Hey, hey." So, uh, anyway, this

00:56:55

is all on my mind, you know, as I'm

00:56:56

playing, but I was marking um Tim Hin, I

00:56:59

think it was. And, um, I remember

00:57:04

I remember the loss, but um, I remember

00:57:06

during the game, you know, the pace was,

00:57:08

you know, everything was just was just,

00:57:11

you know, so much faster and you had to

00:57:13

think quicker and you and I did come

00:57:15

away with doubts. I was thinking to

00:57:17

myself, [ __ ] you know, can I do this?

00:57:19

And um it wasn't until wasn't until I

00:57:22

don't know three or four games in where

00:57:24

you start thinking, "Oh, okay. I can

00:57:26

>> handle the pace.

00:57:27

>> I can handle." Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:29

>> When I spoke to Lori yesterday, he

00:57:30

talked about how how good you were on

00:57:32

defense, but also how deceptively quick

00:57:34

you were on attack as well and how just

00:57:35

your rugby IQ, how you had the ability

00:57:38

to like spot a gap before anyone else

00:57:40

did.

00:57:41

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um

00:57:42

>> you just adjusted to it.

00:57:43

>> Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you there was

00:57:45

there was a whole lot more that went

00:57:47

into it. Um and you know I I put this

00:57:49

down to Lori too um as well but he in

00:57:53

terms of preparation the physical part

00:57:56

of your preparation is the easy part.

00:57:57

you know, anyone can get fitter, can get

00:57:59

stronger, can, you know, learn, you

00:58:02

know, how to do this, how to tackle, how

00:58:03

to all of that, but um you've got to

00:58:06

have your mind, you know, your your

00:58:08

head. You've got to have that sorted

00:58:09

out. And I was going I was going, you

00:58:12

know, I was having ups and downs, highs

00:58:13

and lows with um in terms of form. Um

00:58:17

you know, that first game that I played,

00:58:19

I I didn't really, you know, there's

00:58:22

nothing you could say that you did this

00:58:23

wrong. you know, you did, but I just

00:58:25

went through the game sort of not doing

00:58:27

anything, you know, you kind of and um

00:58:31

and I I'm pretty sure, you know, not

00:58:34

really showing any any potential, you

00:58:37

know, for for growth. Um but so I was I

00:58:41

was I was up and down in terms of uh in

00:58:43

terms of form and my confidence was was

00:58:46

pretty low.

00:58:47

>> But Lori came in one day and he said,

00:58:50

>> "You know, you've got to sort yourself

00:58:52

out. you got to [ __ ] figure figure

00:58:53

yourself out. And he goes, so in the

00:58:56

team um at that stage I don't think we

00:58:59

had was Mertz there.

00:59:02

Grant Fox was first. And anyway, but

00:59:05

there was there was old Mark Ellis and

00:59:07

you know there was a there's a group of

00:59:08

people and he goes um figure out what

00:59:12

you can and what you you can't do. He

00:59:14

goes, "You know, you got Mark Ellis can

00:59:16

do this and you know, can" and there

00:59:18

were groups of guys mucking around,

00:59:19

laughing, you know, not they were they

00:59:21

were that was in their preparation, but

00:59:23

they could do it. He said, "You can't."

00:59:26

And he said, "So [ __ ] stay away from

00:59:28

them. Find yourself a player, you know,

00:59:30

a quiet spot. Um, sit down and [ __ ]

00:59:33

you know," and he goes, "Um, figure

00:59:35

yourself out." I thought, "Oh yeah,

00:59:37

actually I think you're right." So I

00:59:40

started staying away from those, you

00:59:41

know, cuz you get caught up. you just

00:59:42

get caught up in, you know, they're

00:59:43

having a mucking around playing jokes

00:59:45

and stuff like that and, you know, and

00:59:47

then it takes away from the focus that

00:59:49

you really need to be putting into the

00:59:51

test match. And um so I thought, "Holy

00:59:54

[ __ ] he's right."

00:59:56

>> Started, you know, going away, moving

00:59:58

away, you know, finding a quieter spot

01:00:00

at a certain point, move away, and then

01:00:02

just start thinking about the game. And

01:00:04

then I'd go through a I'll go through a

01:00:07

bit of a checkpoint uh checklist, you

01:00:08

know, and you're going, "All right, I'm

01:00:12

I'm fit." You could always be a fitter,

01:00:14

but you know, I'm fit enough. Um

01:00:16

injuryfree. Yes, I know everything I'm

01:00:19

supposed to do. Um you know, this and

01:00:22

you know, chat with Walter mainly and

01:00:24

you know, we we're okay. You know, we're

01:00:25

organized.

01:00:28

Okay, I'm okay. So now so I just started

01:00:31

thinking now and then visualizing you

01:00:33

know and that I can't remember who got

01:00:36

me into that but you you sit down there

01:00:38

and you just just run through your mind

01:00:40

you know of okay if they do this okay

01:00:43

I'm all right with that I can move you

01:00:45

know tell Walter that I can do watch out

01:00:47

for that guy might be coming in there

01:00:49

you know and you just go through

01:00:50

different plays okay oh I'm then you

01:00:52

think [ __ ] I'm okay I can and then that

01:00:57

had a you know because you go in

01:00:59

confident and with the sports person

01:01:01

it's you know confidence is huge

01:01:04

>> or lack of um but yeah yeah so uh from

01:01:09

Lori having come in and said [ __ ]

01:01:10

sort yourself out you know figure out

01:01:12

what you can and can't do and all that I

01:01:14

said okay went away and then my my

01:01:17

consistency then from going from that my

01:01:20

consistency just evened out and um got

01:01:24

to a point where I could just switch on

01:01:26

when I had to and you know nothing

01:01:28

crazy. I you know, not that not that I'm

01:01:31

a Mark Ellis type person, but you

01:01:33

>> you just want to be where the fun is.

01:01:35

>> Yeah. But if you know, if people are

01:01:37

having a laugh and stuff like that and

01:01:38

you know, you you can you can be in it

01:01:41

and then you can just switch out of it

01:01:43

and I can then I can just go along that

01:01:44

road and focus. So I think, you know,

01:01:47

that was that was huge for me. And then

01:01:49

everything kind of rolls on from there

01:01:51

when you've got confidence, you know, a

01:01:53

lot of talking, a lot of um you know, a

01:01:56

lot of just connection. So, um, yeah,

01:01:59

that's kind of how I I was able to to to

01:02:02

move through and professionalism. Well,

01:02:06

what's that done for me? I

01:02:09

cuz people used to say that the All

01:02:10

Blacks were the most professional team

01:02:12

even though it was a fully amateur game,

01:02:13

you know, they were the most

01:02:14

professional team out, but it was all

01:02:16

mindset

01:02:17

>> and I think um I think that's, you know,

01:02:19

that's really what got me there. And I

01:02:22

don't know, I was I was able to I was

01:02:25

always able to, you know, to see things

01:02:28

that were happening. Um, you know, you I

01:02:32

like if I'm coaching people now, um,

01:02:34

especially young backs and that, you

01:02:36

know, you you stand back and said this

01:02:37

is where you should be, you know, then

01:02:39

looking at, you know, what's happening.

01:02:40

Where are they positioning themselves?

01:02:42

Where's that wing? If he's over here,

01:02:44

then, you know, you got to be aware of

01:02:46

something that might happen. And then

01:02:48

you talk to your mate, your next, you

01:02:49

know, your your midfield partner or the

01:02:52

other wings, you know, make sure

01:02:53

everybody is switched on to the same

01:02:54

thing. And it it kind of after a while,

01:02:56

you know, you're not even looking, you

01:02:58

know, it's we might be standing there

01:02:59

and like, Dom, you see that guy over

01:03:01

there? Yep. Yep. He's yours if he comes

01:03:02

out. Yep. Yep. Yep. Got that. Got that.

01:03:04

And it's, you know, it just happens.

01:03:06

Just

01:03:06

>> Wow.

01:03:07

>> Yeah. So gets to a point where you don't

01:03:10

even think about it, you know. Just

01:03:11

>> just instinct.

01:03:11

>> It's just instinct. Yeah.

01:03:14

>> Yeah. You and Mort Little, one of the

01:03:15

considered one of the greatest

01:03:16

partnerships ever. Do you do Yeah. Do

01:03:18

how often do you guys see each other

01:03:20

these days? It's funny when you get

01:03:21

older, right? Cuz you you move in very

01:03:22

different circles.

01:03:23

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:24

>> Such a big partnership for such a long

01:03:25

time.

01:03:26

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'll say and um you know,

01:03:29

when I first went over to North Harbor

01:03:31

and Walt was there and and you know,

01:03:33

connection straight away really. Um such

01:03:36

an easygoing person. He was one of the

01:03:38

last guys who smoked you know him and

01:03:40

Grant Fox. Actually, for [ __ ]

01:03:42

>> sake. You get a the game finishes and

01:03:45

then you you walk into the change room

01:03:47

and you know you hear a

01:03:51

you look around. Yeah. Walked up then

01:03:56

>> different time.

01:03:57

>> Yeah. Oh, diff Oh, you know, he's just

01:03:59

smoking there and um he smoked all the

01:04:02

way through his through his career. Um,

01:04:05

I remember rooming with him and uh, you

01:04:08

know, he he'd always go out on the

01:04:10

balcony or something at the hotel and

01:04:12

have his cigarette. John Timu. One day I

01:04:14

was rooming with John Timu and he comes

01:04:17

in and he's lying on the bed. He starts

01:04:20

lights up a smoke. I was going, "Hey,

01:04:21

hey, hey, [ __ ] you know what are you

01:04:23

doing?" He goes, "What?" I said,

01:04:25

"Fucking Walter goes out on the balcony

01:04:27

to smoke." And John Timu goes, "Well,

01:04:30

I'm not [ __ ] Walter."

01:04:33

I was like, "Fuck."

01:04:35

Well,

01:04:37

>> was was he more experienced than you?

01:04:39

Had he been in the team longer?

01:04:40

>> Who's that? Walter.

01:04:41

>> Um John.

01:04:42

>> Um Oh, yeah. He had cuz he came in, you

01:04:45

know, the same time as Craig and Walter.

01:04:47

And they were all of the same. Um

01:04:50

another guy, Jason Goldmith, who uh

01:04:52

unfortunately broke his leg.

01:04:53

>> Yeah.

01:04:53

>> But um

01:04:55

>> yeah, he'd been in there a couple of

01:04:56

years before that,

01:04:58

>> but um

01:04:59

>> yeah, you know, what do you do? But you

01:05:02

know, Walter Wild Yeah. Some

01:05:04

>> Yeah. Walter um

01:05:07

you know, and so much ability. He had a

01:05:10

I think he had a knee injury for most of

01:05:12

his um for most of his career. And uh

01:05:15

but he could play, you know, great, you

01:05:18

know, skills, hands, fast hands. He

01:05:21

could kick with both both feet. He could

01:05:23

I think everything was natural. And um

01:05:25

he, you know, I say I didn't like

01:05:27

training that much, but um he liked it

01:05:29

less.

01:05:31

Um but you know he could play anywhere.

01:05:33

He could that guy Ben you know in answer

01:05:36

to the first part of your question I

01:05:38

haven't seen him for years probably.

01:05:40

Every now and then you know we'll cross

01:05:42

paths uh

01:05:44

>> you know talk or somebody will you know

01:05:48

um but I haven't I don't even know where

01:05:49

he lives. He's over the shore somewhere

01:05:51

but I'm not sure

01:05:52

>> not sure where he lives. But um the good

01:05:55

that's a good thing too though you know

01:05:56

you can pick up just like that. Um, if I

01:05:59

saw him if I saw him tomorrow, you know,

01:06:02

um, it'll be just like

01:06:04

>> 20 years ago.

01:06:05

>> And what do you talk about when you when

01:06:06

you do see each other? You reminisce.

01:06:08

>> Um, not really. Not really. Just just

01:06:10

about what's happening, you know, what

01:06:12

>> what's you know ask you always ask about

01:06:15

the family and stuff like that. And uh,

01:06:17

>> and his wife Tracy, you know, those guys

01:06:20

have been together. Man, they must have

01:06:22

been he still seems young. I don't even

01:06:24

know how old Walter is now. He must be

01:06:28

what's Oh, he must be mid-50s now.

01:06:30

>> But, you know, they those two have been

01:06:32

together for probably 40 years.

01:06:34

>> Incredible.

01:06:35

>> Incredible. Yeah. You know, had a family

01:06:37

and just living their life. So, um

01:06:41

um yeah, you know, when you catch up,

01:06:43

it's just, you know, what's going on

01:06:44

with the family and stuff and, you know,

01:06:46

>> wherever you might meet, what are you

01:06:47

doing here or you know, just general

01:06:48

sort of thing.

01:06:50

>> I think a lot of male friendships are

01:06:51

like that and there's something quite um

01:06:53

quite comforting about it. It's like,

01:06:55

you know, there's no bad blood between

01:06:56

you. You just don't need to catch up all

01:06:58

the time.

01:06:58

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

01:07:00

>> I've got this photo here, um, an iconic

01:07:02

photo. Michael Broyle from Australia

01:07:04

just laying into you

01:07:06

>> and he he wasn't um I'd sort of

01:07:08

forgotten about this, but I was

01:07:09

researching this over the weekend. He

01:07:10

wasn't sent off or anything. Eh,

01:07:12

>> no. No, he was I think he was just

01:07:14

penalized.

01:07:14

>> So, he just he just comes up to you and

01:07:16

um it only looks like he connects with a

01:07:18

couple of punches, but there's maybe

01:07:19

like 10 unanswered blows.

01:07:21

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it was my

01:07:25

fault actually because I elbowed him.

01:07:27

The ball came. Look at that Andrew

01:07:29

Murdens. He's not even taking any notes.

01:07:31

>> Just ignoring it. I don't want to I

01:07:32

don't want to see it.

01:07:33

>> Christian Cullen, I think Christian

01:07:35

Cullen walked past uh on the He's in the

01:07:38

shot in the background on TV. He just

01:07:39

walks past and

01:07:40

>> Yeah. Not my circus. Not my monkeys.

01:07:42

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, no. The ball the ball

01:07:45

spewed out from someone from something

01:07:47

and I bent down to pick it up and uh

01:07:51

because the leadup to that match was a

01:07:53

little bit you know a little bit iffy.

01:07:55

There was a bit of few words, you know,

01:07:58

said and, you know, I think Sam Scott

01:08:00

Young was um was involved in something

01:08:04

with the Hucker and stuff like that and

01:08:05

it was there was just a bit of words and

01:08:07

then they bought I think they bought

01:08:08

Michael Bry in as a bit of an enforcer,

01:08:10

you know, cuz they everyone had been

01:08:12

going on about how the Aussie forward

01:08:13

pack were were soft and you know, all of

01:08:15

this. Then they brought him in and uh he

01:08:19

had the ball spewed out and I bent down

01:08:20

to pick it up and when I looked up he

01:08:22

was right in my face and then I just put

01:08:24

raised my elbow up and you know snapped

01:08:27

him right in the face and he just came

01:08:29

back with about like as you say about 10

01:08:31

I think I the first one definitely

01:08:34

landed and then after that I I think

01:08:37

most of them sort of glanced off but um

01:08:39

about 10 unanswered. Yeah.

01:08:41

>> Did it take a lot of restraint for you

01:08:42

not to not to fight back or did you just

01:08:44

go into defense mode? defense mode.

01:08:46

Yeah, that's what everyone goes, oh

01:08:47

jeez, that was you you know you seemed

01:08:49

really disciplined.

01:08:50

>> Yeah, that was that was good discipline.

01:08:51

I was going no I just I just bent my

01:08:54

head down and closed my eyes basically.

01:08:57

This will be over soon and then

01:08:59

>> someone mirth has got to be coming soon.

01:09:01

>> Yeah, exactly. Little did I know he was

01:09:04

off up the road.

01:09:05

>> I heard a rumor that um you like he was

01:09:08

he Michael Ber held a grudge over you

01:09:10

from something that happened like three

01:09:11

or four years earlier.

01:09:12

>> Yeah. Um I I don't think it was but um

01:09:16

we were playing um I think we were

01:09:18

playing New South Wales. we're on tour

01:09:20

in Australia and he was offside, you

01:09:22

know, leaning over in a ruck and and in

01:09:25

those days, you know, you could do this

01:09:26

sort of thing, cleaning out the rucks

01:09:28

and that and but he was he was um

01:09:30

leaning over and you know, just getting

01:09:32

in the halfback's way so we couldn't

01:09:34

clear it and I couldn't not take the

01:09:37

opportunity because he was he was

01:09:39

leaning over and his whole the right

01:09:42

side of his body was open and I was just

01:09:44

thinking, "Oh man, I can't not do it."

01:09:47

So, I went flying in and just cleaned

01:09:49

them out. And uh there was a you know,

01:09:52

there was a big big fight that uh that

01:09:55

ensued and um I think I got penalized

01:09:59

for that. I think actually he went off.

01:10:00

That's right. Yeah. But I got penalized

01:10:03

but you know.

01:10:05

>> And did you lose your ear against the

01:10:07

lions? Did you get your ear wiped off?

01:10:09

>> Yeah, I think it's

01:10:12

>> It looks completely Oh, I can see a scar

01:10:14

up there. But was it completely removed?

01:10:16

>> No.

01:10:16

>> No. just hang out.

01:10:17

>> Yeah, it was split like that. Um, yeah,

01:10:20

that was uh that was lying on the wrong

01:10:23

side of um of the rock and it was um

01:10:27

what's his name? Bloody

01:10:30

I can't remember his name. He was a

01:10:31

policeman, too. The guy who did it to

01:10:33

me, Richard. No,

01:10:35

I can see his face, but I just can't

01:10:37

can't recall his name right now. But, um

01:10:40

yeah, I was just lying on the wrong side

01:10:41

of the rock and he just that was always

01:10:44

a thing, too. you know, they always used

01:10:45

to go on about, you know, rucking um you

01:10:48

know, about New Zealanders the way they

01:10:50

rucked and things like that, but um when

01:10:53

the when the British tried it, they they

01:10:55

weren't quite as uh the technique wasn't

01:10:58

quite there, you know, cuz they saw our

01:11:00

rucking as as stomping and stamping, you

01:11:03

know, and and that. But um

01:11:07

but uh yeah. Yeah, they just jumped in

01:11:09

and I think they were just, you know, we

01:11:11

were rocking the hell out of them and

01:11:12

they were they were when they were

01:11:13

touring, you know, they were playing

01:11:14

Otago and Weta and all those teams that,

01:11:17

you know, and they were, that was back

01:11:18

in the heyday when, man, you just

01:11:20

climbed all over people and ripped their

01:11:21

jerseys off them and and, you know,

01:11:23

scars down the back and things like

01:11:25

that.

01:11:26

>> That was a day when um, you know, you go

01:11:28

into the shower afterwards and the Fords

01:11:30

are all in there with ruck marks, you

01:11:32

know, and man, it was it was pretty

01:11:36

>> a tough game back then, though. Yeah,

01:11:37

exactly. But um

01:11:39

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, he just jumped all over

01:11:42

me and and ripped my I I didn't really

01:11:44

feel it, you know. I was getting also

01:11:46

getting wrecked and things on here, but

01:11:48

u I was lying on the ground and Doc May

01:11:50

who comes over and he's like, you know,

01:11:52

lie down. You know, and he said, "Oh,

01:11:55

you're you're here. Don't worry, it's

01:11:56

all right." Then he just taped it all up

01:11:58

and I didn't know till afterwards, you

01:12:00

know, that it was that it was split.

01:12:02

But, uh there was another fight after

01:12:04

that. It was Oh,

01:12:08

but it happened actually again in um

01:12:10

we're playing South Africa over in South

01:12:13

Africa and um Mark Andrews this and he

01:12:16

uh I went to tackle him. The game had

01:12:18

just gone on for seemed like ages

01:12:20

kickoff and gone on for ages and that

01:12:22

and then uh I went to tackle him on the

01:12:24

blind side and he bumped me and I fell

01:12:27

back and then he stamped I don't think

01:12:30

it was on purpose but uh cuz I never

01:12:32

used to wear a m mouth guard. You didn't

01:12:35

have to in those days. And um my my uh

01:12:39

teeth, my front bottom went through my

01:12:41

lip here. He stamped on the thing and uh

01:12:45

left me lying on the ground and you know

01:12:47

they they ended up scoring a try and

01:12:48

then they went back and they were

01:12:50

waiting. Uh went back for our kickoff

01:12:52

for them and I was still getting treated

01:12:54

and Doc um Doc comes over and he goes,

01:12:57

"Oh shit." He goes, "Um, you'll be all

01:12:59

right. You'll be right. Don't worry.

01:13:00

It's just a you know, just a scratch or

01:13:02

something like that." So, uh, they put

01:13:04

some some, um, jelly, you know, the

01:13:08

bloody Vaseline on the cut and, uh, and

01:13:11

I got up and ran back to halfway and

01:13:14

everyone was waiting. This game had gone

01:13:16

on for ages. It was all over the place

01:13:17

and, you know, backwards and then I got

01:13:19

knocked over. Then they scored and then

01:13:20

they were waiting. When I got up and I

01:13:22

ran back to halfway ready for the

01:13:23

kickoff and I looked up, there was only

01:13:25

something like 3 minutes gone or or four

01:13:27

minutes gone in the game. I was

01:13:29

thinking,

01:13:31

how [ __ ] how am I going to blast this?

01:13:33

But uh our was all good.

01:13:36

>> And the 95 rugby world cup. Yeah. You

01:13:38

you mentioned Mark Ellis before being a

01:13:40

teammate. Um you played every single

01:13:42

game in that World Cup apart from the

01:13:44

game against Japan where he scored um a

01:13:46

record amount of tries. Six six tries.

01:13:48

Tries. Yeah. Um what was what are your

01:13:50

reflections on that tournament? Did you

01:13:52

get to meet Nelson Mandela?

01:13:53

>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Met him a couple of

01:13:55

times. Um only in um you know pretty

01:13:58

formal

01:13:58

>> like ceremonial handshake.

01:14:00

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But um and I think we

01:14:03

went to a yeah went to another you know

01:14:07

it was a function and it was a formal

01:14:08

function so it's not as if you really

01:14:10

got to interact with them or anything

01:14:12

but um that um the tournament was great

01:14:15

the um you know and being in in South

01:14:18

Africa I think that was the first time

01:14:20

that they were involved in it. Yeah. So

01:14:22

they weren't there in 91 or 87.

01:14:26

Yeah. So um you know that and they'd

01:14:29

been out of the game. They'd only come

01:14:30

back into the game a few years earlier,

01:14:33

but um you know after all that apart

01:14:35

>> so um it was really interesting place to

01:14:38

to actually go back to but um you know

01:14:42

in terms of that World Cup and the World

01:14:44

Cups are you know it was just the best

01:14:46

because you know you're there you're all

01:14:48

in the same place and you know it's the

01:14:50

best teams in the world the best players

01:14:52

in the world everyone's there you know

01:14:54

with obviously the goal of winning the

01:14:56

World Cup but when you're in a

01:14:57

tournament you know situation

01:14:59

and um and everything is going on around

01:15:01

you every day. It was [ __ ] It was

01:15:04

bloody awesome. Really, really

01:15:05

enjoyable. And the good part was that we

01:15:07

were

01:15:08

>> we were in a really good a really good

01:15:11

um vein, you know, of a of really good

01:15:14

form um a run of good form and uh had

01:15:18

great players. Um you know, we really

01:15:21

should have taken that out, but um you

01:15:23

know, you know what happened.

01:15:27

Yeah, when I had Lori on the podcast

01:15:28

last year, he talked about this and

01:15:29

talked about hiring private eyes and

01:15:32

bookies and Susie the waitress. Yeah.

01:15:35

Were you food poisoned? Yeah. How do you

01:15:36

reflect on that final?

01:15:38

>> Um,

01:15:40

you know, there was there was food

01:15:42

poisoning, but the the question is, you

01:15:44

know, was it deliberate? You know, who

01:15:46

if it was if it was deliberate, who did

01:15:48

it? And Lori think, you know, he seems

01:15:51

to think he's got the answer, but no one

01:15:53

really knows. Um,

01:15:55

>> it's kind of cool. That's one of those

01:15:56

great sporting mysteries.

01:15:57

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And

01:15:59

depending who you ask and you know South

01:16:00

Africans are like stupid. Yeah. Get over

01:16:03

it. And um it still comes up, you know,

01:16:07

quite often.

01:16:08

>> But um

01:16:09

>> Were you sick?

01:16:10

>> Yeah, I was a Yeah, I was a little bit

01:16:12

Well, see even that I I was a bit sick.

01:16:15

I had um I know I just had the bloody

01:16:17

diarrhea

01:16:18

>> and stuff. So then I went to doc and

01:16:20

asked him for some I just said I just

01:16:22

got some diarrhea and I think it was you

01:16:25

know it wasn't like the day the night

01:16:27

like the Friday night and then game on

01:16:29

Saturday I think it was earlier in the

01:16:30

week

01:16:32

>> and uh yeah I just went and got some had

01:16:35

a you know my gut was a bit off went to

01:16:37

doc and um and he said oh [ __ ] you know

01:16:40

and I think it was Craig Dow and Jeff

01:16:42

Wilson and you know there was there were

01:16:43

a few guys that were like really

01:16:45

struggling and then um

01:16:47

>> I would say most of the squad had had

01:16:49

some issues but it was it was more the

01:16:52

you know the preparation the training

01:16:54

the you know um

01:16:57

just the stuff the organization of the

01:17:00

uh of the week I think then you know

01:17:02

that started um started to unfold a

01:17:05

little bit but uh you know in we still

01:17:08

had opportunities to win the game in

01:17:09

terms of that um you know we had a few

01:17:11

guys but we had good guys coming off the

01:17:13

bench so you know still could have

01:17:15

worked in our favor but um

01:17:18

>> you know 30 odd years later. Uh I think

01:17:21

the right team won to be honest.

01:17:23

>> How how long does it Yeah. What's it

01:17:24

like after the game and how long does it

01:17:26

take you to get over a loss like that?

01:17:28

>> Oh, took a while. Took a while to get

01:17:31

over it properly, but um after the game,

01:17:34

you know, you have all the ceremonies.

01:17:35

You still have to have the the the the

01:17:37

prize giving and the ceremony and things

01:17:40

like that. And we weren't flying out, I

01:17:42

don't think, for

01:17:43

>> you know, three or four days after the

01:17:45

final. So um we sat ourselves down in

01:17:48

the team room and went for about three

01:17:51

or four days

01:17:52

>> just drowning the sorrows.

01:17:54

>> Yeah, basically.

01:17:55

>> Um but we went you know and there was a

01:17:57

lot of stuff happening. I think um who

01:17:59

was that Louis late

01:18:02

>> he was the he was the guy in charge of

01:18:04

South African rugby at the time. Mike

01:18:06

Brewer went up and abused him at the

01:18:07

thing and then abused the referee, you

01:18:10

know, accepted a gold watch or something

01:18:11

and, you know, there was all this other

01:18:13

stuff going on, but uh it takes you a

01:18:15

while to get over a a big, you know, a

01:18:17

thing like that. A World Cup is a pretty

01:18:19

big a pretty big thing to miss out on.

01:18:21

>> Well, I suppose you get you get back

01:18:22

home and you're so high profile at the

01:18:24

time, like every day someone's stopping

01:18:26

you to chat about it.

01:18:27

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. And it was

01:18:30

Yeah, it was amazing. And I think I

01:18:31

think too because we um you know we

01:18:34

played such good football up you know

01:18:37

during the um during the event and uh we

01:18:40

were clearly the the best team there but

01:18:43

you know you still got to win

01:18:44

everything.

01:18:44

>> Yeah. Um yeah we touched upon Mandela

01:18:47

before. I've got another iconic photo

01:18:49

here. Uh yourself with her you see the

01:18:51

queen and uh Sean Fitzpatrick and Jonah

01:18:54

Alu. Who's the guy on the who's the guy

01:18:56

in the corner? Is he with you guys or is

01:18:57

he

01:18:58

>> who's that guy? Is he Is he an all black

01:19:00

or is that part of the queen?

01:19:02

>> This guy here.

01:19:03

>> Yeah. Who's that?

01:19:04

>> I thought that was uh Oh, hang on. Let

01:19:08

me

01:19:08

>> chuck your glasses on. But I got

01:19:09

glasses. Are yours plus ones or are you

01:19:11

going

01:19:11

>> uh I don't even know actually.

01:19:16

>> Oh, it's um

01:19:20

what's his name? Oh [ __ ] Yep. He's in

01:19:23

all black.

01:19:24

>> Doesn't matter. I'll fact check it

01:19:25

later. But yeah, it's great. You and you

01:19:27

and Jonu and and the queen right there.

01:19:30

You met her on a couple of occasions

01:19:32

just y that's all that you see that's

01:19:34

the great thing to you know that rugy's

01:19:37

given you know you travel you you meet

01:19:40

so many people and um and and you don't

01:19:43

really see at the time you know it's

01:19:46

awesome you know we're going to the

01:19:47

we're going to the palace Buckingham

01:19:49

Palace meet the royal family it's fun

01:19:51

and it's good and but you know you're

01:19:53

always kind of focusing you got

01:19:54

something else to focus on you know in a

01:19:56

few days and in the next week or so Um

01:19:59

but uh you know the doors that it's open

01:20:03

you know that rugy's open the um

01:20:05

opportunity to travel I'm still

01:20:07

traveling for rugby you know now I'm

01:20:11

going to Angola actually in a in a

01:20:13

couple of months and um

01:20:16

you know a lot of people that that don't

01:20:18

really know who I am or you know know a

01:20:20

lot about rugby oh when did you play you

01:20:22

know oh [ __ ] 30 years ago people what Um

01:20:28

no the um the opportunities the um

01:20:33

ah just the experience you know

01:20:35

>> I was I was I remember being with Eric

01:20:37

Rush actually at um I don't know if it

01:20:39

was that time but h what's that guy's

01:20:42

name that's coming back to me in pieces

01:20:44

now Gordon um Gordon

01:20:48

>> we'll look it up online

01:20:50

>> yeah

01:20:51

but um I was with Rushy and we're at um

01:20:54

Buckingham Palace and uh you know, we're

01:20:57

all lined up and he comes the royal

01:20:59

family comes out and and he uh the

01:21:03

queen, you know, and Diana was there and

01:21:04

and Prince all of them were there, you

01:21:06

know, and we're all there and it's and

01:21:09

uh Queen's there. The only time I got

01:21:12

nervous was when the queen was around

01:21:13

for some reason. The rest of them you

01:21:14

can talk, you know, just it's ordinary

01:21:17

and then the queen turns up and you're

01:21:18

just like, "Oh shit." You know, you

01:21:20

straighten up and you kind of, you know,

01:21:22

hands out of your pockets and just

01:21:24

seemed to be the thing to do. And uh

01:21:27

afterwards Rushy goes he goes hey um cuz

01:21:30

I looked around. We we all standing in a

01:21:32

line and I kind of looked up you know

01:21:33

just the queen's coming here and I just

01:21:35

kind of looked up and I saw Rushy

01:21:36

looking at me. I was like then go back

01:21:38

to the queen. Oh yeah. And uh and I said

01:21:42

you know when uh when I was just about

01:21:43

to shake hands with the queen. He said

01:21:45

yeah. Said and you know I looked up and

01:21:48

you were looking at me and he goes and

01:21:50

you you know he was had a big smile on

01:21:51

his face kind of look. And I said what

01:21:54

you know and he goes [ __ ] He goes, "I

01:21:56

was just just at that moment." He goes,

01:21:58

"I was looking around." He goes, "And I

01:22:00

was thinking to myself, [ __ ] you know,

01:22:03

Buckingham Palace." He goes, "Man," he

01:22:05

goes, "I was looking at all the art on

01:22:06

the wall, and you know, we're inside

01:22:07

this room." And he goes, "And then I

01:22:09

looked, you know, I could the um the

01:22:11

other members of the royal family." And

01:22:13

he said, "And I just looked down." He

01:22:14

goes, "And I looked over at you and

01:22:15

there you were just about to shake hands

01:22:18

with the queen." And I was going, and he

01:22:20

said, and I thought to myself, "Fucking

01:22:21

hell, look at us." And he goes, you know

01:22:24

where we've come from. And he goes, and

01:22:26

then I thought to myself, he goes, and I

01:22:28

thought, [ __ ] hell, a moldi from

01:22:31

Otara and a [ __ ] coconut from a. And

01:22:34

he goes, and look at us. He goes, [ __ ]

01:22:35

look where we are. And I was going,

01:22:37

yeah. Oh, man. And then u I said, you

01:22:40

know, look how far we've come. And then

01:22:43

it became a bit of a thing. We're in New

01:22:46

York and we're at the Empire State

01:22:48

Building. It's like, look around.

01:22:50

Where's Russia?

01:22:52

you know, two guys from South Oakland

01:22:54

and then, you know, Eiffel Tower

01:22:57

brushing, you know, and it became a

01:22:59

thing everywhere. You go different

01:23:01

places and look around and there's my

01:23:04

South Oakland mate still bloody there.

01:23:06

>> Bro, that gave me goosebumps.

01:23:08

>> That's really really cool insight from

01:23:10

Rushy to have that um your level of uh

01:23:12

presence at the time to realize how you

01:23:14

know how how big it was.

01:23:15

>> Yeah, it says a lot about him actually.

01:23:17

He's, you know, I don't think Rashy's,

01:23:19

uh, you know, got as much credit as he,

01:23:21

as he deserves, like, you know, and even

01:23:23

now, so he's a lawyer.

01:23:25

>> He quit law when all the rugby when the

01:23:29

discussion was going on about the um,

01:23:31

you know, the where where the rugby

01:23:33

turns professional. Um, you know, the

01:23:36

what was that, Rupert Murdoch thing that

01:23:38

was um

01:23:40

>> Oh, that's right. Yeah. Um, what was it

01:23:42

called? Some rebel league.

01:23:43

>> Yeah, the rebel thing. Yeah. So um we

01:23:46

got so sick of having all these meetings

01:23:48

around it that we said right he goes you

01:23:52

know you're a lawyer said you go to all

01:23:54

the meetings and if it's good enough for

01:23:56

you then it's good enough for us and he

01:23:57

was going oh [ __ ] I don't want just you

01:23:59

know we've had enough sick of it so he

01:24:01

started going to the meetings and he

01:24:03

said it was just a nightmare just the

01:24:05

money so he basically quit law because

01:24:08

of that because of his experience around

01:24:10

that

01:24:11

>> and um he went and became a he painted

01:24:13

houses was with his father and then he

01:24:15

got into the supermarkets and stuff. So,

01:24:17

but um

01:24:18

>> no no he's [ __ ] he's been and he's been

01:24:20

there from the beginning me and we we um

01:24:24

we um debuted for Oakland on the same

01:24:26

day in the same game and um you know

01:24:30

he's bloody huge

01:24:32

>> incredible.

01:24:33

>> Yep. Yep. Done really really well for

01:24:34

himself and you know puts a lot back

01:24:36

into not just rugby but into his

01:24:38

community up there. And you know, as I

01:24:40

was saying about Jonah before, he's had,

01:24:42

>> you know, such such an impact on on so

01:24:44

many people.

01:24:46

>> Um, and King of the Sevens as well.

01:24:48

>> Exactly.

01:24:49

>> So much to do with um the Sevens. I've

01:24:51

got another photo here which is just

01:24:52

just iconic. Uh, it looks like a a looks

01:24:55

like a boy band.

01:24:57

>> So, who is it? Cully. Christian Cullen.

01:25:00

Uh, Jeff Wilson.

01:25:04

>> No. No. Cully's not there. That's Oh,

01:25:06

no. It is either little short.

01:25:07

>> He looks tiny. Yeah, I reckon I was

01:25:09

going to say that's Stewie Foster, but

01:25:11

it's not.

01:25:13

>> Look how well dressed you guys are. You

01:25:15

look like a boy band.

01:25:18

>> She Jonah with a big leather coat. Of

01:25:21

course, he had to have all the expensive

01:25:23

stuff.

01:25:23

>> Yeah. What was it like being in that

01:25:25

team environment when um these these

01:25:27

like absolute game changers and

01:25:29

superstars come along like first of all

01:25:31

first of all Jonah and then Kelly?

01:25:33

>> Yeah.

01:25:33

>> What's it like?

01:25:35

Um

01:25:36

well, you know what I was saying before

01:25:38

about, you know, having been in that um

01:25:41

>> lucky to be in that era, you know, when

01:25:43

those guys came along. I don't think

01:25:44

I've seen a better player than Christian

01:25:46

Cullen,

01:25:47

>> you know. Um

01:25:48

>> he's got to be, you know, as an

01:25:51

attacker, you know, the excitement that

01:25:53

he brought to the game, you know, he got

01:25:55

the ball and he just did magical things.

01:25:58

And um you know for a guy that um you

01:26:02

could barely get him out of bed. You

01:26:03

know he when we when we were touring you

01:26:06

know you you get up in the morning you

01:26:08

go and you train in that kid go back and

01:26:10

go straight back to bed and you know you

01:26:12

get up at oh I'm going to lunch where oh

01:26:15

what are you guys doing? Oh I'm going to

01:26:16

lunch and then the you know boys are

01:26:18

going to go and play golf or we're going

01:26:19

to go down such and such and he goes nah

01:26:21

[ __ ] that I can't be. And he basically

01:26:24

he he train in the morning, he'd have

01:26:26

lunch and then he'd go back to bed for

01:26:27

the rest of the day. And you know his

01:26:29

touring was was kind of all like that.

01:26:32

Um and you couldn't get boo out of him,

01:26:34

you know.

01:26:35

>> He was so shy.

01:26:36

>> Yeah. Yeah. But now you you know he you

01:26:39

listen to him and he knows what he's

01:26:40

talking about, you know. So um

01:26:42

>> yeah, I think I was mates with him in

01:26:44

partners to North at the beginning of

01:26:46

his career and um I remember when he

01:26:48

broke onto the scene, a lot of people

01:26:49

thought he was like dumb or something,

01:26:50

but he he wasn't dumb. He was just

01:26:51

really shy.

01:26:52

>> Yeah, exactly.

01:26:53

>> Super super shy. And he's he's um always

01:26:55

spoken very highly of you. Like I think

01:26:56

he found it really hard to be accepted

01:26:58

in that all black environment at the

01:26:59

time. Like it wasn't

01:27:01

>> as an inclusive environment as what it

01:27:03

potentially is now.

01:27:04

>> Um back then you had to sort of earn

01:27:06

your stripes and prove yourself. But um

01:27:08

he was always really appreciative of how

01:27:09

you treated him.

01:27:10

>> Oh, that's nice to hear. Oh, yeah. I

01:27:12

always wondered about that. You know,

01:27:13

that uh um the back seat, you know, all

01:27:16

of that culture.

01:27:17

>> Yeah. That that culture was Yeah. was

01:27:19

never any good. I mean there's there's

01:27:21

no reason to why why would you do that

01:27:23

you know and um but you know no he he

01:27:27

certainly came in and and proved himself

01:27:29

and you know you he's he's up there with

01:27:31

the best ever that guy

01:27:33

>> but you know so so Jonah you know Kelly

01:27:37

Jonah who just came in and just

01:27:40

>> rock star yeah just ripped things to

01:27:43

pieces you know Jonah and for a kid a a

01:27:46

young island boy from South Oakland who,

01:27:49

you know, he went from nowhere to just,

01:27:52

as you say, the rockstar and uh and

01:27:55

then, you know, the the influence that

01:27:57

he's had on on the game, on the, you

01:28:00

know, young guys, you know, who've come,

01:28:02

you know, years and years. I was in

01:28:04

Egypt. I did a um intrepid journeys

01:28:06

thing there. And uh and it was when they

01:28:11

were overthrowing the um the government

01:28:13

over there. And um

01:28:15

>> oh man, it was huge. It was it was

01:28:17

awesome place at the time, you know, to

01:28:19

be

01:28:20

>> it was scary as anything, but you know,

01:28:22

to be in there was like really exciting

01:28:23

in there. And we'd go up to people

01:28:26

>> and you're you know, interviewing or

01:28:28

whatever. I go and ask a question about

01:28:29

and be like, um, where you from? You

01:28:33

know, oh, New Zealand. And people, you

01:28:35

know, this in the middle of [ __ ] of

01:28:37

Egypt. Um, New Zealand. Oh, Lu Lomu. and

01:28:41

you just go [ __ ] they got no idea

01:28:44

about you know about New Zealand as a

01:28:46

whole but um you know the impact that he

01:28:48

had you know changed the game changed

01:28:51

the the rugby I guess the landscape and

01:28:53

still is you know for for good. So, um,

01:28:57

that guy and then he, you know, he turns

01:28:59

up and people used to used to tease us.

01:29:02

Oh, [ __ ] You know, your game plan is

01:29:04

get the ball to Jonah as quick as

01:29:06

possible. And then, of course, it is.

01:29:09

What's your problem?

01:29:10

>> Yeah, exactly.

01:29:11

And yeah, get the ball to Jonah as quick

01:29:13

as possible. Back him up. Done.

01:29:15

>> Oh, yeah. Lori told me some story about

01:29:17

you you you setting Jonah up for a try

01:29:18

and it was some move that you practiced

01:29:20

in training, but it wasn't supposed to

01:29:21

be used. It's called the double dummy.

01:29:24

Oh, hang. I've got it written down.

01:29:29

>> There's some some move uh the double

01:29:31

dummy cut. Does that mean anything to

01:29:33

you?

01:29:34

>> His memor is good for 80, isn't it?

01:29:36

>> Yeah, I reckon apparently some some move

01:29:38

you came up with for training which was

01:29:39

never supposed to be used for a game and

01:29:41

it was like to keep things exciting for

01:29:42

Jonah. And then uh Colin Maids or Earl

01:29:45

Curtain said to Lori, "Do you think

01:29:46

Frank's doing the double dummy cut?" And

01:29:48

he goes, "No, he wouldn't [ __ ] dare."

01:29:50

And apparently you you did it. You gave

01:29:52

the ball to Jonah. He scored and

01:29:53

>> Oh yeah.

01:29:54

>> Yeah.

01:29:55

>> Sounds about right.

01:29:56

>> Still holding a grudge.

01:29:58

>> Exactly.

01:29:59

>> With uh with Jonah, you know, you go

01:30:02

Jonah, you know. So you set up, you set,

01:30:05

say there's a scrum or something. You

01:30:07

sit and you go Jonah, you know, um come

01:30:09

out, you know, outside Mertz or come,

01:30:11

you know. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. And

01:30:13

then get the ball and you run and you'd

01:30:15

beat people and you know, I don't know,

01:30:17

run 20 m or something and do and then

01:30:20

get tackled. You get it back and go back

01:30:23

to his wing and you know the play would

01:30:25

go on. Say the ball goes out. Okay,

01:30:28

Jonah. And he goes, I can't. I can't. We

01:30:30

go. What's wrong? Injured. No, no, no. I

01:30:34

can't. I can't get there. You know, I'm

01:30:36

tired. Just [ __ ] get there. [ __ ]

01:30:39

you know, and then he'd do it and he'd

01:30:43

do, you know, he'd run 30 meters and

01:30:44

beat six players and then, you know, get

01:30:46

dragged down just before or or he'd go

01:30:48

through and score, you know, and then he

01:30:50

come running back and he go, "Fucking

01:30:52

hell, I can't do it. I can't do it. You

01:30:54

can do it."

01:30:55

>> You know, he's he always had a little a

01:30:57

little doubt, you know. I think it was

01:30:58

more his fitness, not his ability. But,

01:31:00

um, you know, you always, you know, you

01:31:02

always worry, oh [ __ ] can I get there?

01:31:04

Can I do? And um you just had to bloody,

01:31:08

you know, that was that Brown brother

01:31:10

thing to that island, you know, you

01:31:11

could talk to him like that just [ __ ]

01:31:13

you know.

01:31:13

>> Yeah. Cuz you're quite a bit older as

01:31:15

well. And yeah, Lori talked about this

01:31:16

how much he respected you guys.

01:31:18

>> He um Yeah, he told me he um roommed you

01:31:21

guys together once. Jonah was struggling

01:31:23

with his weight. So he roommed you with

01:31:25

Jonah so that you could be like his food

01:31:27

police.

01:31:28

>> Yeah. As if I was going to be his food

01:31:30

police.

01:31:32

Lori was his food police. But Jonah was

01:31:34

eating, you know, 12 eggs or something,

01:31:36

10 eggs at breakfast time.

01:31:39

But no, he um yeah, he he you know, we

01:31:43

were his buffer, you know, lorries to to

01:31:45

Jonah. But um Jonah respected him, you

01:31:49

know, fully. Uh it was just a

01:31:51

communication thing, you know. M

01:31:53

>> um Jonah, young, you know, brown island

01:31:57

boy from South Oakland. Lori, older

01:32:00

white guy from I don't know where the

01:32:02

hell he was from.

01:32:03

>> Southland. So, you know, those two were

01:32:06

never going to meet, you know.

01:32:08

>> No, no way to communicate with.

01:32:10

>> No, no. Lot a lot in common, but you

01:32:12

know, it's just a matter of, you know,

01:32:14

how you going to communicate things. And

01:32:15

that that went both ways as well.

01:32:18

>> Jonah was um like notoriously generous.

01:32:21

like it's it's infamous the stories you

01:32:22

hear about him buying cars for young

01:32:24

players at super rugby franchises and um

01:32:27

picking up like a ghetto blaster in

01:32:29

every new town for the team bus or the

01:32:31

hotel room. Did you ever try and like

01:32:33

talk him out of being so

01:32:36

>> nah shell? No [ __ ] I've still got two

01:32:38

cars in it.

01:32:41

He bought me my teeter.

01:32:45

No,

01:32:47

I um

01:32:49

now I just let him, you know, I there's

01:32:52

no way I was ever going to tell him not

01:32:54

to do things. I was, you know, you you

01:32:55

can give advice. You can say, you know,

01:32:58

there's no need to be to, you know, like

01:33:01

the, you know, the the music, that side

01:33:04

of things. There's no need to buy,

01:33:06

>> you know, go out and buy things for that

01:33:08

and and uh, you know, big bloody boom

01:33:11

boxes and you don't have to buy a new

01:33:13

and you don't have to buy someone some

01:33:14

headphones and you don't, you know, it's

01:33:16

all that sort of stuff. But he was

01:33:19

>> his own man.

01:33:19

>> He was his own man. Yeah. And I think

01:33:21

too he um, you know, he hadn't come from

01:33:24

money,

01:33:25

>> but he also he, you know, he had a

01:33:27

pocket full of money at the time and he

01:33:29

was making more money than everybody

01:33:31

else and he just that was just his

01:33:33

nature. M. So

01:33:35

>> yeah, he sounds like the loveliest guy.

01:33:36

I I had Steve Divine on the Did you Did

01:33:39

you overlap with Steve Divine? Yeah. And

01:33:40

he he told a story. Um you were in

01:33:42

Transit in LA and he had um the hacker

01:33:45

burned on a a like a CD cuz he wanted to

01:33:48

learn the hacker for his debut. Um so he

01:33:50

was in the duty free store looking for a

01:33:52

discman and Jonah was like, "Oh, just

01:33:54

yeah, just borrow mine." And then at the

01:33:56

end of the trip he went to give it back

01:33:57

to Jonah and Jonah was like, "No, man,

01:33:58

just keep it."

01:33:59

>> And um those discs discman were like

01:34:01

a,000 bucks back then. Yeah, it's just

01:34:03

nothing to him.

01:34:04

>> Yeah. When we were rooming together cuz

01:34:06

I used to get Jonah to um carry my bags

01:34:09

and stuff like that. That was all part

01:34:10

of the seniority.

01:34:12

>> Yeah. And um he'd come up and you know

01:34:17

put the bags in and you go up to the

01:34:19

room and he's lying on the bed cuz back

01:34:22

in the day you know you had a a double

01:34:24

bed or whatever it was and then a single

01:34:25

bed. You'd come in and he's lying on the

01:34:28

double bed and just like hey what the

01:34:30

[ __ ] and he's like, "Oh, see my bed."

01:34:33

Oh, well, sorry. Then he off onto the

01:34:36

other bed and and lie there and um he

01:34:38

he'd spend his time, but you know, you

01:34:40

wake up in the middle of the night and

01:34:41

look over and he's got the music

01:34:43

blasting and his but his feet are

01:34:46

hanging over the edge and stuff like

01:34:47

that. It's just like but he used to go

01:34:49

up and after training

01:34:52

um you know, you going to have a you

01:34:54

going to have a shower or um bubble

01:34:55

bath, you know, after training. I said,

01:34:58

"Oh, I might do a bubble bath,

01:35:00

actually." Okay. So, he'd go up and he'd

01:35:02

run me the bubble bath and stuff like

01:35:03

that and then make me a cup of tea and

01:35:05

bring me biscuits and you know, see, I'm

01:35:09

talking 30 years ago, too. But, um, you

01:35:12

know how they used to have little

01:35:14

cookies or something?

01:35:14

>> Yeah. Wrapped up in the hotel room.

01:35:16

Yeah.

01:35:17

>> So, he'd bring those and you go, "Fuck,

01:35:18

come on, man." He'd run down the shop

01:35:20

and come back with some nicer biscuits

01:35:22

and stuff like that. And

01:35:24

>> Oh, that's so cool.

01:35:25

>> Always fun. And it must have been a

01:35:27

really special relationship because um

01:35:29

yeah, you were a a pbearer at his

01:35:31

funeral. Another iconic photo I've got

01:35:32

here. Uh Manu.

01:35:34

>> Yeah.

01:35:35

>> Is that Joel Vader?

01:35:36

>> Yep.

01:35:37

>> Yeah. Yourself. Not sure who's just

01:35:39

behind you, but that looks like Sir

01:35:41

Michael Jones and maybe um maybe a

01:35:43

Ronnie Clark as well.

01:35:45

>> Oh, Dylan Mika.

01:35:46

>> Oh, Dylan Mika.

01:35:47

>> Yep.

01:35:48

>> Michael Jones.

01:35:50

Yeah. Not too sure who that is. too

01:35:53

early.

01:35:54

>> Do you remember when you heard about um

01:35:56

his passing? Because it was quite

01:35:57

sudden, wasn't it?

01:35:59

>> Yeah. Um

01:36:04

>> jeez,

01:36:04

>> I think he'd been over in the UK doing

01:36:05

some promo work for Heineken or American

01:36:08

Express or something and then just sort

01:36:09

of came back.

01:36:11

>> I can't even remember who told me to be

01:36:13

honest.

01:36:14

>> But um even just looking at that photo,

01:36:16

you know, Joel's gone. Dylan Mik's gone.

01:36:19

>> Yeah.

01:36:22

Well, he's not gone, but he's

01:36:23

>> he was gone for a couple of years.

01:36:27

>> No, he seems to be in a good place now.

01:36:29

I saw a boxing fight over the weekend.

01:36:31

He did really well.

01:36:31

>> I saw that. Yeah.

01:36:32

>> Yeah.

01:36:33

>> But, uh, no, no. Yeah, Jonah's and, you

01:36:36

know, a lot of that cuz no one even

01:36:39

really knew he was sick,

01:36:41

>> you know, and he went through all of his

01:36:42

all black stuff, you know, having

01:36:45

carrying that um those issues. M um

01:36:49

you know he could have man imagine

01:36:52

um had he been 100% imagine what he

01:36:56

would have been

01:36:58

>> otherwise. Yeah. Yeah.

01:37:00

>> Um but yeah jeez

01:37:03

>> I can't remember I can't remember where

01:37:05

uh

01:37:06

where I was even when I when I heard

01:37:09

>> but um yeah you know at 40 he was

01:37:13

>> Yeah.

01:37:14

>> Yeah.

01:37:14

>> Yeah. painfully young.

01:37:16

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And uh but I

01:37:18

knew he was struggling. You know, he

01:37:19

he'd made a made a few comebacks to

01:37:21

rugby and things like that and not never

01:37:24

really, you know, worked, I guess. But

01:37:27

um you know, it says a lot for him

01:37:29

because, you know, he was still getting

01:37:31

contracts and things like that from

01:37:32

>> Yeah.

01:37:33

>> You know, even even if it didn't work

01:37:34

for them on the field necessarily,

01:37:37

>> you know, the um

01:37:38

>> association with Jonah in their club

01:37:40

room, you know, was, you know, was more

01:37:42

than more than about rugby, I guess, to

01:37:44

be honest. But um he's he's a one in a

01:37:47

million, you know, and

01:37:49

>> I

01:37:52

you'd have to say that he was, you know,

01:37:54

he's he's been the best. He's, you know,

01:37:57

like the best ever, I think. And and not

01:37:59

just purely in ability, but just the way

01:38:01

he changed things, um changed the

01:38:04

trajectory

01:38:06

of uh you know, of the game of the the

01:38:09

professional game, you know, and put it

01:38:11

out there into the into the world. And I

01:38:13

was um when we were rooming together,

01:38:15

you know, we'd come home um from

01:38:18

wherever, from a day out or training or

01:38:20

whatever. And the number of letters, the

01:38:23

the amount of mail that was in our room,

01:38:26

you know, fan mail for Jonah was man, it

01:38:30

was just so it was crazy.

01:38:32

>> Wow.

01:38:33

>> Yep. And you know sometimes you would

01:38:34

push the door open and you know the

01:38:37

envelopes get stuck under the door and

01:38:38

it's like oh but you know just fan mail

01:38:42

people outside the rooms all the you

01:38:44

know I felt sorry for him actually a lot

01:38:46

of the time because he was he was shy as

01:38:48

well young shy and um but so much

01:38:52

attention you know and I think it was um

01:38:56

I I think it was pretty tough for him

01:38:57

you know to to get through that

01:38:59

>> but um on the field you know he'll

01:39:02

always be remembered for jeez that 95

01:39:04

World Cup I guess.

01:39:05

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:39:07

>> Was it No. Oh yeah. 95 where he ran over

01:39:10

Mike Cat.

01:39:11

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:39:11

>> Yeah. With the with the um Yeah. The

01:39:13

infamous um Keith Quinn

01:39:14

>> quote. Exactly.

01:39:16

>> Apparently he dropped his paper or

01:39:17

something. So he had something that he

01:39:19

was going to he was going to say, but he

01:39:21

dropped his notes. So he just went, "Oh,

01:39:24

love."

01:39:25

>> Yeah. It must have been um strange for

01:39:27

you like being um so close being like a

01:39:29

mate to him. And there's some stuff that

01:39:30

he went through and it hasn't aged

01:39:32

particularly well. Like um like when he

01:39:33

got married without inviting his parents

01:39:35

and then he had to go on like a

01:39:36

nationwide go on the homes show to

01:39:38

apologize along with John Hart.

01:39:40

>> You look back now it's none of anyone's

01:39:42

[ __ ] business.

01:39:43

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No,

01:39:45

>> but I think too that was um you know

01:39:47

early days of professional

01:39:50

>> you know professionalism or professional

01:39:52

rugby and uh no you know it was that

01:39:55

learning that learning curve you know

01:39:57

where nobody really knew the only thing

01:39:59

we had to go by was you know was um the

01:40:02

closest thing was rugby league

01:40:04

>> you know in Australia and you know

01:40:06

they've had their issues over the years

01:40:09

um and I guess they took what they took

01:40:11

from American football who's you know

01:40:13

which is even worse But uh yeah, it was

01:40:16

it was all a a huge learning curve and

01:40:18

you had to you know a lot of people did

01:40:21

things that they probably would never

01:40:23

even contemplate now.

01:40:24

>> Yeah.

01:40:25

>> Yeah. You just say no. I'm not you know

01:40:27

imagine imagine now you know I need you

01:40:30

to come on and explain yourself on

01:40:32

television at 6:00 and or 7 sharp. You

01:40:34

know

01:40:35

>> with the coach sitting next to you.

01:40:36

Yeah. It's unthinkable.

01:40:38

>> Yeah. Yeah. You'd be like what the [ __ ]

01:40:40

What was your do you think your proudest

01:40:42

moment as an or

01:40:48

um

01:40:50

um

01:40:55

I don't know actually if I had the

01:40:58

probably the fact that I actually made

01:41:00

it, you know.

01:41:02

>> Oh, you didn't just make it though. Like

01:41:04

um making it is one thing but then 55

01:41:07

tests and being considered as one of the

01:41:08

greats.

01:41:09

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm pretty proud

01:41:11

pretty proud of that when I look back on

01:41:13

that. Um

01:41:14

>> and the fact that uh the fact that it is

01:41:17

kind of still going, you know, what I

01:41:19

still get asked to do stuff because of

01:41:21

that.

01:41:22

>> So, um you know, I'm I'm proud of what I

01:41:26

achieved and when I look back now and

01:41:28

and everything that I've done, you know,

01:41:30

and um that's, you know, you said, do I

01:41:33

reminisce at the beginning? And yeah, I

01:41:35

do. And this is the reason why. It's

01:41:37

because you get to remember and you know

01:41:39

you bring up things that that um you

01:41:41

know I haven't thought about for years

01:41:43

or I've never no one else has ever

01:41:45

brought up you know and that sort of

01:41:46

stuff

01:41:47

>> and but they're good memories.

01:41:48

Everything is good you know there's

01:41:51

there were obviously they were tough

01:41:52

parts but

01:41:54

>> by the by the most part

01:41:56

>> you look back and they're good memories.

01:41:58

>> Yeah they're great and you know people

01:41:59

that you meet

01:42:01

>> and you will know them for the rest of

01:42:03

your life. You know, another thing I'll

01:42:06

go on about Rushy, but Rushy goes, he

01:42:08

goes, "You got no friends?" You know,

01:42:10

you move, say you move to a new country,

01:42:12

he goes, "You got no friends." And he

01:42:14

goes, "Go to your local rugby club." He

01:42:16

goes, "You'll have [ __ ] hundred

01:42:18

friends just like that." And that's the

01:42:20

beauty of the game where you can travel

01:42:22

the world and you can turn up somewhere,

01:42:24

you know, you find a rugby club and you

01:42:26

go down there and they go, "Oh, you

01:42:28

know, where you from?" And New Zealand

01:42:29

is another is, you know, opens doors for

01:42:32

you. But you go down and Oh, yeah.

01:42:34

Played in New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Dad,

01:42:36

come over here. You know,

01:42:37

>> great way,

01:42:39

>> especially if you wear one of your old

01:42:40

jerseys. Have Have you still Have you

01:42:41

got your jerseys anywhere? Have you got

01:42:43

any Are you a memorabilia guy?

01:42:45

>> Um, no, not really. Not really. I've um

01:42:48

I've got a suitcase of,

01:42:51

you know, every now and then, you know,

01:42:53

if you move home or you doing clean up

01:42:56

at home or something like that and you

01:42:58

you pull out boxes and suitcases and

01:43:00

stuff like that and some of my jerseys,

01:43:03

you open the suitcase and I've still got

01:43:05

an all black suitcase from the ' 90s,

01:43:08

you know, which has got them all in

01:43:09

there.

01:43:10

>> Open it up, dust and crap everywhere.

01:43:12

It's like you pull out jersey and you

01:43:14

go, "Oh, yeah." But, you know, they've

01:43:16

been in there for 30 years, for 20 years

01:43:18

since I got them. And I've every now and

01:43:21

then you go, "Oh, [ __ ] That's right.

01:43:23

Oh, [ __ ] This Yeah. Then you put them

01:43:25

back and then you, you know, forget

01:43:26

about them.

01:43:27

>> Forget about them again." So, I've got

01:43:30

I'm recently, you know, going through um

01:43:33

a big big clean out and stuff and and

01:43:36

you know, there's all these photos and,

01:43:38

you know, just programs and things like

01:43:40

that that I didn't even you know, I

01:43:43

wasn't I'm not a collector by any means,

01:43:45

but you know, these things come back and

01:43:46

you just pick them up and it's like,

01:43:48

"Oh, that's right. Forgot about that.

01:43:50

Forgot about that."

01:43:51

>> And

01:43:51

>> so, you're not a framer. There's none of

01:43:53

them framed on the walls?

01:43:54

>> Nah. Um, not really. I gave I gave, you

01:43:57

know, a lot of my all black jerseys to

01:43:59

rugby clubs and things like that and oh,

01:44:01

>> charity fundraisers, auctions,

01:44:03

>> they'll put them on the wall. Buck

01:44:04

Shelfford said to me, um, you know, uh,

01:44:09

give your stuff away. He goes, you know,

01:44:11

he goes, cuz he said the same thing and

01:44:12

he goes, you know, he goes, I've got an

01:44:14

all black tracksuit from 1986. And he

01:44:16

goes, what the [ __ ] use is that? You

01:44:17

know, [ __ ] goes, what am I going to

01:44:19

do with a [ __ ] You go, oh yeah. He

01:44:21

goes and then you know say so you

01:44:23

someone comes and asks you and you go oh

01:44:25

no I don't want to give this he goes and

01:44:27

you know I should have given it he goes

01:44:29

give your stuff away to you know people

01:44:31

raising money for charity you know all

01:44:33

of that sort of stuff he goes cuz you

01:44:35

know it's going to be no use to you in

01:44:36

30 you know 50 years and stuff and and

01:44:39

he's right I've got a couple you know

01:44:40

I've got my all black cap um

01:44:43

>> and I've got a I still got a couple of

01:44:45

older jerseys you know that um uh you

01:44:49

know the first ones

01:44:50

>> yeah Um but uh

01:44:52

>> that's all you need. A couple of key

01:44:53

pieces.

01:44:54

>> Yeah, exactly.

01:44:55

>> Um how did you find the adjustment to

01:44:56

life after rugby? I'm just thinking like

01:44:58

some of the stuff we've talked about,

01:45:00

you know, like like meeting the queen,

01:45:02

you know, being in New York with Rashy

01:45:03

and all all these big things. I just

01:45:06

wonder after that if if life seems to

01:45:09

lack a bit of color.

01:45:10

>> Yeah, exactly.

01:45:12

>> You know, the pace of life just feels so

01:45:13

slow so slow after that.

01:45:15

>> Well, that's the thing, too. You know,

01:45:16

I've I've enjoyed that. I've been there.

01:45:18

I've enjoyed it. But, you know, I don't

01:45:21

necessar I don't have to be the leader

01:45:22

of the pack anymore. I don't have to,

01:45:25

you know, I I don't look for excitement

01:45:27

and stuff like that. But, um,

01:45:31

oh, when you first finish it, I I

01:45:34

struggled.

01:45:35

>> Um, and I wasn't sure why, but you know,

01:45:38

I I struggled to relationships and

01:45:42

things like that. Um, you know, even

01:45:44

holding relationships. Um I went so I

01:45:47

finished here and even the way I

01:45:49

finished was you know wasn't great. Um

01:45:52

because I I'd kind of come to the end

01:45:55

and I knew it in my mind and I John Hart

01:45:59

had came in and uh you know we we talked

01:46:02

um he said you know you let me know when

01:46:04

you you know when you're ready when

01:46:06

things are when things are ready when

01:46:08

the time is right he said and we'll

01:46:09

manage your you know your exit.

01:46:12

>> I was like okay. Then you go through all

01:46:14

of this and and uh I was thinking to

01:46:17

myself and it was I just couldn't be

01:46:19

bothered going through the you know the

01:46:21

the buildup to test matches and stuff. I

01:46:24

could I was still fine physically but

01:46:26

mentally I kind of wasn't there anymore.

01:46:29

I didn't want to go to you know to

01:46:30

Wellington say you know for the whole

01:46:33

week and prepare to play a game. Um I

01:46:36

was still fine playing the games but

01:46:38

that's not how it works. So, you know,

01:46:41

>> oh, you wanted the Saturday, but not the

01:46:42

Monday to Friday.

01:46:43

>> Yeah. Can I just come down on Saturday

01:46:45

morning?

01:46:46

>> Yeah. And so, all of that, you know,

01:46:48

that makes

01:46:49

>> sense. Yeah. There was just a whole lot

01:46:50

going on. I just said, "Ah, can't be

01:46:51

bothered anymore." And, uh, then I

01:46:54

started and Joe Stanley actually, um, he

01:46:57

was a player agent and he rang me up and

01:46:59

go, "Oh, got a couple of um a couple of

01:47:01

offers, inquiries about you, uh, for

01:47:04

you." And, uh, one was in France and and

01:47:07

one was, where was the other one? in

01:47:09

England. But um I thought, "Oh, France,

01:47:13

you know, always had a bit of a, you

01:47:15

know, interest in France, another

01:47:16

culture, you know, all of that sort of

01:47:18

stuff." I thought, "Well, yeah, it

01:47:20

sounds right." So, we decided that we'd

01:47:22

go up, go to France. It was going to be

01:47:25

really, really tight because um we had

01:47:26

an all black trial coming up and uh so

01:47:30

we thought, "Ah, we'll sneak it in.

01:47:31

We'll get up there." Football World Cup

01:47:34

was on in France at the same time. So,

01:47:36

this was late 90s and uh so we thought

01:47:40

we'll get up there. We'll do what we

01:47:42

have to do up there. See if it's going

01:47:44

to work. If not, we'll still make it

01:47:46

back in time so that I can play in the

01:47:47

um in the all black trial.

01:47:49

>> Yep. Flew up there. Um strike, airline

01:47:54

strikes, um lost baggage, all of this

01:47:58

stuff. pilots went on strike because of

01:48:00

the football world cup and they wanted I

01:48:02

don't know we just so ended up missing

01:48:06

oh I got back like a couple of days

01:48:08

before the trial but John Hart was

01:48:11

ringing in you know was um the media it

01:48:14

was all this speculation anyway and uh

01:48:17

we'd been avoiding John Hart and uh John

01:48:20

Hart and Joe Stanley are tight you know

01:48:22

they're like that when they finally come

01:48:25

through and

01:48:28

The phone rings. Oh, now Hardy was

01:48:31

talking to uh to um Joe and we went we

01:48:34

you know did all this stuff in France.

01:48:36

Hardy was talking to Joe and then um I I

01:48:40

don't think I was there at the time but

01:48:41

he came back and he goes you need to

01:48:43

ring um you need to ring Hardy tell him

01:48:47

you know what's going on. I was like oh

01:48:48

[ __ ] I didn't want to cuz you know

01:48:51

conflict you know I'm not really a

01:48:53

conflict person but uh so anyway the

01:48:56

next next day and I rang him up and I

01:48:59

thought h morning in New Zealand okay

01:49:03

his his uh secretary or whoever was

01:49:05

she'll answer the phone that'll break

01:49:07

the the ice a little bit and then pass

01:49:09

it on. Okay

01:49:12

John Hart speaking. I was frank

01:49:15

that was good. Oh. Um. Uh. Oh, Hardy.

01:49:18

Uh, Frank. Frank Buds. And [ __ ] there

01:49:20

was like on TV, you know, where I held

01:49:24

it. He just went for it. I held it back

01:49:26

and he was swearing and I was going like

01:49:27

this and Joe was going, "Oh, fuck." And

01:49:29

he was he goes, "Fuck it." Then when he

01:49:32

calmed down, just chatted to him. He

01:49:34

goes, "Oh, it's um" He goes, "I've had

01:49:37

to [ __ ] lie to the media. I've had to

01:49:39

tell, you know, and I've had to I don't

01:49:40

do." He goes, "Fucking hell. How do you

01:49:42

think this looks?" Which was fair

01:49:44

enough. I was in here. Um

01:49:47

yeah. And anyway, we got back and when

01:49:49

we we flew back and we had to have a

01:49:50

meeting at the airport, Joe went to come

01:49:53

in and he went, "No, you're not you're

01:49:55

not welcome." So, he waited outside. We

01:49:58

had a meeting and he said, "I can't I

01:49:59

can't play you in the I can't play you

01:50:01

in the um trial." He said, "You know,

01:50:03

you've just got back and two days later

01:50:05

we're supposed I can't I can't do it.

01:50:06

It's not fair."

01:50:07

>> I said, "Oh, that's all right." He goes,

01:50:09

"Fuck it." Said that was how my all

01:50:11

black career ended

01:50:12

>> and uh that was the way it was. So it

01:50:15

leaves leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

01:50:16

You have this amazing career and then it

01:50:18

just sort of ends with um like a like a

01:50:20

like a disappointment.

01:50:21

>> Yeah. Yeah, it did. But uh um Hardy um

01:50:25

he he apologized to me actually probably

01:50:28

a few years later. But um

01:50:30

>> you know he um just the way that it all

01:50:32

happened. But I you know it was my fault

01:50:34

as well. Um he said I could have done

01:50:36

things better but it was a lot of

01:50:37

emotion at the time and anyway it worked

01:50:40

out. But um I in saying that I I did

01:50:44

struggle after that because you do

01:50:47

something your whole life you know and

01:50:48

and especially when the game not not

01:50:51

even when it went professional but with

01:50:52

the All Blacks you know and rugby you've

01:50:56

got your week you prepare for something

01:50:58

on the weekend right done next week same

01:51:01

thing done next week and you know that's

01:51:03

most of your year and uh when you're

01:51:06

doing that and it's all fully controlled

01:51:09

you know you got to be there at this

01:51:10

time. You got to need this, you got to

01:51:12

do this. Yep. Yep. Yep.

01:51:13

>> And uh one day it's not there

01:51:15

>> and you kind of you're a little bit

01:51:18

lost.

01:51:19

>> So, you know, I went through I went

01:51:20

through probably a good few years of

01:51:23

trying to find myself, you know, and as

01:51:24

I was saying, relationships, went to

01:51:26

France in the end, got injured, and then

01:51:29

I was, you know, that was all over the

01:51:31

place as well. And um I kind of never

01:51:33

really settled down, man. Probably

01:51:36

probably 5 years after after that. Do

01:51:39

you think in hindsight there was like an

01:51:41

element of depression there?

01:51:42

>> Possibly. Yep. Yep. You know, you're

01:51:46

kind of lost and but I I also found that

01:51:50

I I missed um I missed the physical

01:51:53

there was no out I had no outlet you

01:51:55

know um I missed getting knocked around

01:51:57

and you know trained the physical aspect

01:51:59

of of all of that and u you kind of you

01:52:02

know you're always you know it's just

01:52:05

like you know what what's going what's

01:52:07

wrong? what's a big part of your your

01:52:09

life and your identity and who you are

01:52:11

as a person and suddenly it's no longer

01:52:12

there. How how do you rebuild and find

01:52:14

out what what the next chapter's going

01:52:16

to be?

01:52:17

>> Um you

01:52:20

and this is the advice that that um you

01:52:23

know the young guys are getting now. You

01:52:26

plan you plan before you you

01:52:29

>> before it's time before you retire. You

01:52:31

know it's pretty hard to retire and then

01:52:34

figure it out. So, um,

01:52:36

>> it takes time just to build something

01:52:37

new, doesn't it?

01:52:38

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, think about it

01:52:39

now. You know, if you're if like a young

01:52:42

guy who's, you know, who's in right in

01:52:44

the middle of his career now, everything

01:52:46

seems rosy, but it comes around really,

01:52:49

really quick as you know, and, uh, you

01:52:51

know, your your age, your, you know,

01:52:53

circumstances change. So, um, start

01:52:56

planning now, start thinking about

01:52:58

things now. And, yeah, you know, I was

01:53:00

lost for for ages. And I think I think a

01:53:03

lot of the training now uh I think

01:53:06

they're doing the right things for the

01:53:07

um you know for the young guys with um

01:53:10

giving them options you know and and

01:53:12

there's there's dedicated people in

01:53:15

terms of careers and and the after you

01:53:18

know the aftermath of of rugby. And um

01:53:21

again we were the guinea pigs you know

01:53:23

and at the beginning and then at the end

01:53:25

you're kind of you are you are left on

01:53:28

your own um you know as a as an ex

01:53:31

player. um getting a bit better now.

01:53:34

There's there are some some avenues that

01:53:36

you can uh you can take but um you know

01:53:40

everything was a learning curve the

01:53:42

beginning all through the the the the

01:53:45

beginning the the early years of

01:53:47

professional rugby and then how it ends

01:53:50

for you. So um

01:53:52

>> you know that's the hard part and and

01:53:54

you know a lot of for a lot of guys it

01:53:55

hasn't ended well.

01:53:58

>> It's tough isn't it? So, um, what has

01:54:00

life post rugby looked like for you?

01:54:02

You've done small businesses and stuff.

01:54:04

>> Yeah. Yep. Um, I've, um, I did a lot of,

01:54:08

um, a lot of TV stuff early, you know,

01:54:11

Sky and TV3 and, you know, did a

01:54:14

>> not that I was a bloody, um, was no

01:54:17

Keith Quinn, you know, far from it.

01:54:20

>> Well, there's only one Quinn, you know,

01:54:22

I was a comments guy and very happy

01:54:24

being a comments man. Um but even then

01:54:27

you know when you're doing three and

01:54:29

four you know follow the All Blacks on

01:54:32

tour and

01:54:33

>> you know it just becomes a little bit

01:54:36

you become a little bit blasze you know

01:54:38

it's like a [ __ ] broke me the game is

01:54:40

the same doesn't matter you just change

01:54:41

the name of the teams

01:54:43

>> and um I got a bit sick of that and then

01:54:45

being away

01:54:46

>> uh you know all the time I was I was um

01:54:50

away doing rugby when you know the

01:54:51

family was at home.

01:54:53

>> Yeah. And then I was at home when they

01:54:55

were all at school and stuff like that.

01:54:57

So that kind of wasn't working and uh

01:54:59

just got a bit tired of that. And then

01:55:01

bought into a um I used to I used to

01:55:04

work in a tire shop when I was at school

01:55:06

in the holidays. Friend of mine um a

01:55:08

friend of mine's father had a tire shop.

01:55:10

So we would go and work in it. And uh

01:55:13

then a guy rang me up and he said, "Oh,"

01:55:14

he goes, "I'm going to go and look at

01:55:16

this tire shop. You know, you

01:55:17

interested?" I was like, "It's been a

01:55:19

long time." guess I'll just come down

01:55:21

and went down and started working in

01:55:23

this tire shop with him and uh I

01:55:26

thought, "Oh yeah, this is all right."

01:55:28

Um so I ended up buying it off him and

01:55:31

they had had that for 14 years.

01:55:33

>> Wow.

01:55:34

>> And then uh got into another one.

01:55:36

>> Were you actually working in there? Were

01:55:37

you on the tools?

01:55:38

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:55:39

>> Oh [ __ ]

01:55:39

>> Yeah.

01:55:40

>> So uh it was, you know,

01:55:42

>> maybe it gave you some of that

01:55:44

physicality that you're talking about

01:55:45

before.

01:55:46

>> Yeah. And I've I've never minded the,

01:55:48

you know, the physical nature of it. And

01:55:50

you're still lifting heavy stuff. And so

01:55:52

there's another one in Pukakoi now. And

01:55:55

um

01:55:56

>> uh you know, so still still work there.

01:55:58

Still still on the tools now. I'll

01:56:00

probably have to leave here and then go

01:56:01

back and see what's going on.

01:56:04

>> I knew you had some businesses, but I I

01:56:05

just assume you bought into them and had

01:56:07

people running them for you. No, you're

01:56:09

in there.

01:56:09

>> A bit of that, but uh yeah. No, no. I I

01:56:12

don't think I could ever sort of like

01:56:14

people say to me, "What are you going to

01:56:15

do when you retire?" It's like, "Fuck,

01:56:17

it's true." And I used to get a lot of

01:56:19

people that would come into the shop and

01:56:21

um who had retired and had nothing to

01:56:25

do,

01:56:25

>> you know, and they were like, "You've

01:56:26

got to you got to have something to

01:56:28

retire to rather than just retire from."

01:56:31

So yeah, that's really so true. And

01:56:34

>> you know, they'd want to hang around for

01:56:36

hours talking just to, you know, just

01:56:39

pass the time and you're just going,

01:56:40

"Holy hell." But, you know, I can't I I

01:56:43

don't think um I don't think I could,

01:56:46

you know, I'm 64 now. I don't want to

01:56:48

retire in when I'm 65.

01:56:50

>> I'm Yeah, I'm a I'm a firm believer.

01:56:52

Like, you you need that purpose to get

01:56:53

out of bed in the morning, otherwise you

01:56:55

just fade away.

01:56:57

>> Um, so 64 years old, no one no one gets

01:57:00

to the privileged position of living to

01:57:01

64 without going through some real tough

01:57:03

periods or big adversities. What do what

01:57:05

do you think for you would be the

01:57:06

biggest adversity? Um

01:57:10

>> you sort of talked before about that um

01:57:12

transition period from um being a

01:57:14

professional rugby player to not would

01:57:16

that be up there?

01:57:17

>> Yeah, that's up there. But um

01:57:20

because you don't know what it is, you

01:57:22

know, what's what's causing what are my

01:57:24

issues now? You know, what what's

01:57:26

causing me to be feeling like this and

01:57:29

relationships?

01:57:31

um

01:57:33

you know um the breakdown of

01:57:35

relationships.

01:57:37

>> Um

01:57:38

I think

01:57:41

family's always been good. Kids always

01:57:44

been good, you know, and you always have

01:57:45

regrets with your kids. Um you know,

01:57:47

especially my first three, the older the

01:57:49

older three, and I was doing a lot of

01:57:51

touring around back then, you know, I

01:57:54

think I could have handled that better.

01:57:56

Um, but I I think um

01:58:03

a hard I think it is that that

01:58:05

transition really. You got you've got to

01:58:07

get that right, you know, if you want

01:58:08

the rest of your life to

01:58:10

>> if to to to be to turn out, you know, um

01:58:14

how it should or how you you want it to.

01:58:16

>> Um you really got to get that transition

01:58:18

right. You got to get the end of your

01:58:20

career and then the beginning of your

01:58:22

next life. Um, you got to get that um

01:58:25

get that sorted. I don't think I've had

01:58:27

really huge regrets, but um

01:58:32

>> yeah, that that piece that finding that

01:58:34

next piece is easier said than done, eh?

01:58:35

Because um you might have an idea, but

01:58:37

then you might start doing it and

01:58:38

realize that it's not bringing you joy

01:58:40

or you just don't really like it.

01:58:42

>> So, it's finding that thing that's going

01:58:43

to spin your wheels.

01:58:44

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

01:58:45

>> Are you are you happy these days? And

01:58:47

when do you think you've been your

01:58:48

happiest?

01:58:49

>> Um yeah, I know. I'm I'm pretty happy

01:58:51

these days. I think um

01:58:55

being my happiest

01:58:58

because I was my daughter's moved to um

01:59:01

with her family moved to Perth um very

01:59:04

recently and uh we were going through I

01:59:07

sent her some um pictures of uh you know

01:59:11

when she was really young and uh I'd

01:59:14

come back I'd come back from overseas

01:59:15

and I was with so there was in the

01:59:18

picture there was me and um and Yeah.

01:59:22

And we're talking she's 35 now. So man,

01:59:25

she must have been

01:59:27

and that's almost 25

01:59:29

>> 27 years ago.

01:59:32

>> And uh of these couple of Italian

01:59:34

friends and uh and another mate

01:59:38

>> and I showed her this sent her this

01:59:40

photo took a you know on the phone and

01:59:42

she comes back and she goes, "Oh, they

01:59:44

were such great days." And then I was

01:59:46

thinking, [ __ ] they were actually there

01:59:48

were like I um I even though I was

01:59:52

traveling and I wasn't back, you know,

01:59:54

they'd come over um my kids would come

01:59:57

over to uh to Italy or to France, you

01:59:59

know, and and uh we'd spend time over

02:00:02

there together and then we'd come back

02:00:03

and we lived together in the you know,

02:00:05

in in the house and every it was it was

02:00:07

carefree. Yeah. You know, and there were

02:00:09

no issues. Um

02:00:13

yeah, things were just Yeah.

02:00:15

>> simple.

02:00:16

>> Simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know,

02:00:18

you you had I don't know. And I think,

02:00:22

you know, it's a bit about the state of

02:00:24

the, you know, the the times we are in

02:00:27

at the moment. You know, it's it's hard

02:00:29

work out there for, you know, for

02:00:31

families and for,

02:00:33

>> you know, for kids and stuff like that.

02:00:34

But it seemed life just seemed so much

02:00:37

better, you know, back then. And I think

02:00:39

it was too, you know, it's I was talking

02:00:41

to my my family with my my daughter

02:00:44

moving. We were all at the airport and

02:00:46

stuff and you're talking to your your

02:00:48

family about it and turns out that

02:00:49

there's a couple of them that were also

02:00:51

thinking my brother-in-law was telling

02:00:53

me he was trying to get my older sister

02:00:55

to go and she said, you know, I'm not

02:00:57

I'm not going I don't want to go and

02:00:59

live in Australia and I don't either.

02:01:01

And another, you know, another of our

02:01:03

siblings was saying, ah, you know, we

02:01:06

still live in your mind. you still live

02:01:08

in the New Zealand that you know that we

02:01:11

were brought up in.

02:01:12

>> And it was

02:01:13

>> it was joyous you know

02:01:15

>> you there was there was we were always

02:01:17

positive you know we you could you could

02:01:20

make your life you could forge your path

02:01:23

um and there always seemed like there

02:01:25

was hope you know.

02:01:27

>> Yeah. Yeah. And this this is coming from

02:01:28

you who, as we established at the

02:01:30

beginning, was raised in a house with um

02:01:32

10 people

02:01:33

>> and one income,

02:01:35

>> you know, so bare bones sort of stuff,

02:01:36

but still somehow better

02:01:39

>> better. Yeah. I say that to to just my

02:01:41

my wife and she was

02:01:44

>> um you know, they were raised pretty

02:01:46

well.

02:01:47

>> Um and I often find myself saying to

02:01:50

you, see, it's it's actually better

02:01:52

being poor.

02:01:54

you know, you you get you you get raised

02:01:57

a certain way, you know, when you when

02:01:59

you don't have everything

02:02:01

>> and uh everything that you want,

02:02:03

everything that you can hope for.

02:02:05

>> But um sometimes, you know, you just

02:02:09

your expectations aren't as high, you

02:02:10

know, and uh

02:02:12

>> it's good and bad, but you know, I don't

02:02:14

want to be destitute, but

02:02:16

>> you know, I got

02:02:17

>> Yeah. Were you you had a few years of um

02:02:19

earning like I suppose good professional

02:02:21

money. Were you were you good with your

02:02:22

money?

02:02:23

>> No. No guarded.

02:02:24

>> Yeah.

02:02:25

>> Yeah. There was no sort of financial

02:02:26

literacy at the time, was there?

02:02:28

>> Exactly. And you know, if you

02:02:30

>> I think if you don't come from money as

02:02:31

well, you don't really know how to how

02:02:33

to manage it, how to handle it. You know

02:02:35

what? You know, we had no idea about

02:02:37

investments and you know, in shares and

02:02:40

and things like that.

02:02:41

>> Um so

02:02:45

yeah, could have been a lot better.

02:02:46

Could have been sitting a lot better,

02:02:48

but um ah

02:02:49

>> hindsight,

02:02:50

>> hindsight could have been a lot worse.

02:02:52

>> Yeah, absolutely. What do you think your

02:02:53

best and worst habits are? Or if if

02:02:55

Jessica was here, what would she say

02:02:57

your best and worst habits are?

02:02:58

>> What did she say, D?

02:02:59

>> No, I I haven't spoken to her. Um

02:03:03

she's she she would probably say that um

02:03:07

not not that I could uh not that I could

02:03:10

necessarily do maybe maybe you know aim

02:03:13

a little higher

02:03:15

>> um in terms of uh in terms of of goals

02:03:19

and

02:03:21

um

02:03:23

she she hates it when I bloody sit on

02:03:25

the couch and watch TV for for too long

02:03:27

cuz that's just a waste of but uh it's

02:03:30

one of those things. No, she she'd just

02:03:32

tell me that um

02:03:35

she's always been encouraging, you know,

02:03:37

always. And uh and that I could I could

02:03:40

do really whatever I turn my hand to.

02:03:43

And actually, I got no doubt that I

02:03:44

could,

02:03:45

>> but um

02:03:47

>> some things you do, you want, you know,

02:03:49

you want to do and and other things you

02:03:50

don't. And and I'm kind of happy in my

02:03:52

>> Yeah.

02:03:54

I I know right at the very end, right

02:03:56

when I'm, you know, on my deathbed, I'll

02:03:58

go, I should have bloody

02:04:01

>> should have applied myself.

02:04:03

>> Yeah, exactly. But, you know, there's

02:04:05

always regrets.

02:04:07

>> Yeah. What um Yeah. Do you have regrets?

02:04:10

What are your regrets?

02:04:11

>> I

02:04:13

I regret not staying at school. I should

02:04:16

have furthered my education.

02:04:18

Um,

02:04:20

but you know when you're young and you

02:04:22

know you're teenage just getting around

02:04:24

that age and you think you know best and

02:04:26

you know

02:04:27

>> cuz I I could have done I could have

02:04:29

done so much more even though I'm happy

02:04:32

with what I've done. I could have done

02:04:34

you know more and even in different

02:04:36

areas. But um I think it's it's that I

02:04:40

should have stayed at school. um the

02:04:43

transition part, you know, I I probably

02:04:46

didn't listen to, you know, to to some

02:04:49

people to some advice I was given. Um

02:04:53

but apart from that really

02:04:58

>> Yeah. And relationships, past

02:05:00

relationships, you know, there's

02:05:02

>> some of them could have been handled

02:05:04

>> handled better. Oh, yeah. Well, you live

02:05:06

and learn, don't you? Are you are you um

02:05:08

are you shocking at communicating with

02:05:09

serious?

02:05:10

>> Yeah. Yeah,

02:05:11

>> I'm I'm learning though.

02:05:13

>> Oh, bro. Same here.

02:05:15

>> Constantly a work in progress.

02:05:16

>> Yeah, it is. It is. And that was that

02:05:18

was another thing on that on Treasure

02:05:19

Island, you know, we sat around the

02:05:21

campfire and just chatted and they were

02:05:25

the that that was the best part of the

02:05:27

whole thing where um where the cameras

02:05:30

are gone, you know, the day's work's

02:05:32

finished and you've had your rice and

02:05:34

beans and then you're just lying around.

02:05:37

There's no social media, there's no

02:05:39

phones, there's nothing, you know,

02:05:41

there's you're in the moment and you're

02:05:43

just lying around and then, you know,

02:05:45

you just start talking and it's amazing

02:05:48

what comes out. It's amazing what you

02:05:50

talk about and what you know, we'd be

02:05:53

sitting here and we'd be listening cuz

02:05:55

we've got all the time in the world and

02:05:57

then we're just listening to you talking

02:05:58

about you know your life and your

02:06:00

relationships and you know and then the

02:06:02

next person says something and then it's

02:06:04

your turn and you know so the like it's

02:06:06

just really opened everything up and and

02:06:10

um you know I found that uh

02:06:14

>> um yeah just being able to do that

02:06:17

>> uh Like I found it was like so good for

02:06:21

me, you know, as a person. And

02:06:23

>> you know, obviously you're younger than

02:06:25

me, but we're still of that era where

02:06:28

it's just hard to open up.

02:06:30

>> It's hard that vulnerability piece. It's

02:06:32

really difficult.

02:06:32

>> It is. It is. But I mean, there's it

02:06:35

there's no reason once you get through

02:06:38

that, there's no reason to, you know, to

02:06:42

be like we were,

02:06:43

>> you know.

02:06:44

>> Yeah. There's a better way.

02:06:45

>> Yeah. There's there's a there's a better

02:06:46

way. You just got to you just got to be

02:06:48

open to a little bit of change, a little

02:06:50

bit of it's uncomfortable. It can be

02:06:52

uncomfortable, but

02:06:54

>> it's so much better than sitting there

02:06:56

and going, "Oh, [ __ ] you know."

02:06:58

>> Yeah.

02:06:59

>> Old men, you know, I always laugh now.

02:07:02

You know, you look at, "Oh, it's woke.

02:07:05

Oh, it's good. Oh, it's" and you just

02:07:06

go, "Fuck." Just get on with the [ __ ]

02:07:10

If if um if your kids or grandkids were

02:07:12

here, uh what three words would you like

02:07:15

them to use to describe you

02:07:17

>> as describe me? Oh, yay. Um

02:07:21

>> three different words to describe you

02:07:24

and your character and your personality.

02:07:26

>> Yikes.

02:07:28

Um,

02:07:37

real, genuine

02:07:41

um, loving

02:07:45

>> and um,

02:07:53

what I say real or genuine. Genuine

02:07:55

loving and

02:07:57

>> two great words so far.

02:07:59

>> Genuine loving and

02:08:02

happy.

02:08:02

>> H

02:08:04

that's a great set of words at 64.

02:08:07

Genuine loving happy.

02:08:09

>> Yeah.

02:08:09

>> Are awesome words.

02:08:10

>> Yeah.

02:08:10

>> That's what other people say about you.

02:08:12

That's awesome.

02:08:13

>> Yeah. Yeah.

02:08:13

>> Especially the people that matter the

02:08:15

most.

02:08:15

>> Yeah. Yep. That is true. my um my

02:08:18

daughter that's just left uh Samantha,

02:08:20

she said that um my so my oldest son,

02:08:25

he's he's 40, but he's he's caring and

02:08:29

he's, you know, he's one of he's one of

02:08:31

those guys. He's he's got soft nature.

02:08:34

>> Then there's Sam who's strong as

02:08:37

anything, like really strong willed and

02:08:39

you know, and then Jordan is the next

02:08:41

one who's early 30s, 30, 31, something

02:08:44

like that. and um he's had his he's had

02:08:48

his issues but nothing serious but uh

02:08:51

he's over in Perth now as well. But my

02:08:54

daughter Sam said that you know she's

02:08:56

talking to Jordan and she talks to um

02:09:00

you know with her her kids and stuff

02:09:01

like that. She goes and the really good

02:09:03

thing is you know he's been bought up

02:09:06

especially Jordan and because he's got a

02:09:08

he's got a macho attitude and stuff like

02:09:10

that little you know but soft side. Um,

02:09:13

but she goes, "No, it's because, you

02:09:15

know, he he's got no issue saying I love

02:09:18

you." You know, and his her kids and

02:09:24

but they go, you know, he's grown up

02:09:26

like that, you know, he says, "I love

02:09:27

you and he's he can hear it." And he

02:09:29

goes, "But that's because you've always

02:09:30

said that

02:09:31

>> and to me." And I said, "Oh, yeah." She

02:09:34

goes, "Yeah, you've always been open

02:09:36

around us like that and you know, you

02:09:38

said I love you and you know, we can

02:09:40

talk like that around you and it's it's

02:09:42

just a natural thing for him now." And I

02:09:44

was thinking, "Oh, cuz and I know I do

02:09:46

say it to them and I've never it's never

02:09:49

been an issue." And I thought, "Oh,

02:09:51

that's actually it's nice to hear." So,

02:09:53

>> you're hearing it validated. Yeah.

02:09:55

>> I've done some good stuff.

02:09:56

>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

02:09:59

>> That's cool. Are you proud of yourself?

02:10:01

Um,

02:10:03

I'm proud of myself. Yeah. Yeah.

02:10:05

Generally, I'm proud of myself. you

02:10:06

know, I could have done things I could

02:10:08

have done a lot of things a lot better,

02:10:10

but generally in terms of what I've

02:10:13

achieved, where I've been, um, and I'm

02:10:18

I'm a little loathed to say where I've

02:10:20

come from because that, you know, that

02:10:21

puts um that puts it on my parents, you

02:10:25

know, cuz then they I go, "Oh, to have

02:10:28

come from here to here means that once

02:10:30

we were we were down there and we had

02:10:32

nothing and stuff, but, you know, I was

02:10:34

always loved.

02:10:36

Um, always had everything I needed. You

02:10:39

know, I was

02:10:40

>> roof over your head, food on the table.

02:10:41

>> Exactly. And never ever felt

02:10:44

>> Well, apart from a few times I got a

02:10:46

good hiding, but you know, from my

02:10:48

mother mainly. My mother was a

02:10:49

disciplinarian. My father wasn't.

02:10:51

>> You What was her What was her weapon of

02:10:53

choice?

02:10:54

>> Vacuum cleaner pot.

02:10:57

>> Yeah, I got the bell. Dad, dad would

02:10:59

always And sometimes like mom was never

02:11:01

the mom would be like, "Wait until your

02:11:03

father gets home." Then hours later we'd

02:11:05

get the belt for something and you

02:11:06

couldn't even remember what we' done.

02:11:08

>> Yeah. Exactly.

02:11:09

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Or the uh there's a like

02:11:13

a new there's a toughy. It's like it's a

02:11:15

broom but it's all these strands of

02:11:18

Yeah. So you get whacked with that.

02:11:20

>> But um

02:11:22

>> you've you've done well. You've done

02:11:23

well. You say you could have done more.

02:11:24

But um I mean the stuff we've covered

02:11:26

today like you've done a lot. You've got

02:11:28

a big family, a lot of grandkids. um

02:11:30

this incredible playing career which

02:11:32

puts you in the legend status. You've

02:11:34

done a lot.

02:11:35

>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I have actually. And um

02:11:39

I I should finish out, you know, I say

02:11:41

that I I want to make 80. I should

02:11:43

actually do something with the next 15

02:11:45

or 16 years. Something that I actually

02:11:48

That's the problem though. Think of

02:11:50

something. Jess, what do you want to do?

02:11:53

What are you going to do for the next

02:11:54

five or 10 years?

02:11:56

>> Yeah.

02:11:57

>> How's this been today? We've been going

02:11:58

for 2 hours 10 minutes. Um I I I went

02:12:01

through every single podcast that you've

02:12:02

been on previously and uh there's only a

02:12:05

couple and they're rugby based ones and

02:12:06

they're a lot shorter than this. Have

02:12:08

you found it okay?

02:12:09

>> I have. Talking about yourself for this

02:12:10

long.

02:12:11

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't mind

02:12:13

as long as you know you ask the right

02:12:15

questions, you know, you uh you I don't

02:12:19

mind opening up, you know, and I I'm in

02:12:21

that space now as well. I don't you

02:12:23

know, I got nothing to hide. M.

02:12:25

>> Um, so it's amazing. 2 hours 10 minutes

02:12:27

went just like that and that's when you

02:12:29

know it's been good.

02:12:30

>> Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time

02:12:32

today. It's great to see you back on TV

02:12:34

on Celebrity Treasure Island and um I'm

02:12:36

really excited to see what you do next

02:12:38

or or maybe you won't do anything next

02:12:40

and that's fine, too.

02:12:41

>> But um mate, I'm I'm just pleased to

02:12:43

connect on this level and see that

02:12:44

you're happy and content with life. So

02:12:46

cool.

02:12:46

>> Cheers, Dom.

02:12:47

>> Frank Buny, a great New Zealander.

02:12:49

>> Thank you, mate.

02:12:50

>> Cheers, mate. Beautiful.

02:12:52

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