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Hey, everyone, it's Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. Today is a special treat. I'm
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joined by Dateline producer Lynn Keller, who worked with me on the episode we're going to
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be talking about. Hey, Lynn. Hey, Andrea. So this episode is called The Man of Many Faces.
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If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
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So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. For this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a pub owner in Scotland who came face to face with the man of many faces.
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But to recap, hoping to evade law enforcement and a slew of criminal charges against him, an American man, Nicholas Alavirdian, faked his own death and fled the country.
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Investigators and our Dateline team tracked down the elusive fugitive to Scotland before he was extradited back to the United States to face justice.
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And to tell one more surprising story about who he really is. Okay, let's talk Dateline.
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Linda, a big question is, because it's going back now, is how did we get, you and I both just became very interested in this story together.
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I feel like you emailed me a link to the story. Okay. And we just kept talking about how crazy it was.
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And then our affiliate in Rhode Island, in Providence, interviewed him. And we're like, oh, we want to do that, too.
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And so I reached out to that reporter. He gave us Nicholas's contact or Arthur's contact.
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Arthur, yeah. And then I set up a call for the three of us. It was you, me, and Arthur.
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And then do you remember, too, I remember we were on a story, a completely different story.
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and my phone rang and it was him. And so we had him on speaker and we just let him talk and talk.
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He does talk. He talks and talks and talks a lot. Yeah. Not that there's anything wrong with that,
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but he does talk a lot. This story, the con man stories, you and I really enjoy doing them.
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Not to say like we feel obviously very bad for the victims of these stories, because it's awful what people are put through by con men. But at the same time,
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they are fascinating to look into them. We don't do them as much on Dateline. We usually stick to
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traditional murder investigations. Well, I think what happened is we got what we would consider a
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yellow light when we pitched the story. That's what you always say. And so they basically said,
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well, you know, just go see what more you can find. And so then once we booked the interview
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and you did that amazing, bizarre, crazy interview, that got our bosses hooked on like,
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let's see what else we can do. And one of the things I wanted to say also about the victims
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is that it turns out usually that they want to have a voice. They want to have an opportunity
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to talk about it. I was going to say the same thing. In this case, now Nicholas Rossi is behind
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bars. He's pleaded not guilty to all of the criminal charges he's facing. But there was a
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time where he wasn't behind bars. And these women said, look, we're speaking out because we want to
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we want to prevent this from happening to anybody else. The victims of Nicholas alleged and some actual victims of Nicholas,
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they have a Facebook group where they communicate with each other and they keep track of what,
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you know, what's happening with him. Yeah. So they have banded together. You know, this, this interview came about, I, I mean, I honestly didn't think he didn't,
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wouldn't show up. We disclose in, in our show that we did that interview remotely.
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I was in New York and Nicholas Arthur was in Scotland. We did that interview in my basement.
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And, you know, a lot of people said, like, how did you keep a straight face? And the reality is I
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didn't. Like when he stands up and, you know, falls over in that kind of, dare I say, iconic
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moment that triggered me, you know, to start laughing. It was it's one of those moments where,
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you know, when you're in school and you're not like, you're not allowed to laugh. And then you,
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then you just, you laugh more. It was kind of that. And so I lift up the, my notes and I,
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and Arthur, are you laughing at me? Are you laughing at me? And I put the notes in front
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of my face because I felt so bad. I was like, no. And I'm trying to make up excuses, but there's no,
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there's no excuses. Like it's just, it's happening. I mean, that was extremely unusual
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circumstance to have somebody who is obviously faking, you know, try to do this demonstration.
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Yeah. And he would say he wasn't faking that he really has these issues from COVID,
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you know, and he really truly was in the hospital for COVID. Well, then we found out later that when he goes back into the hospital, a female doctor and nurse
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told him that they were going to release him and he hops off the gurney and goes to attack them.
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So that whole thing of him trying to stand up, I mean, chances are it was it was completely an act. It was not real.
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Yeah, I mean, I think I think a lot of people would probably agree with that. So yeah we we trying to book another interview with him and we been going back and forth And the jail has said no to allowing us physically inside the jail So we were trying to do either a video interview over a video conference or a phone interview
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And we've been just going back and forth, back and forth and did not get him to agree by the deadline of our updated story.
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Right, because he did say that he's like, oh, I do want to do an in-person interview.
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That's what he told us. Yeah. And we gave him the deadline and he never got back to us in time.
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He didn't get back to us in time. I would love to do an interview with him again.
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I mean, so I hope he accepts, you know, at some point to do another interview with us.
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What would be your first question? Like, what would be your most burning question to him?
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I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, certainly, you know, to see if he would reveal.
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So when he was in court this year in Utah, what was his line about, you know, he had to fake it because they were trying to kill him because of his work with Department of Children and Youth Services in Rhode Island that, you know, they were after him.
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So he had to like essentially what go into hiding. And he made that comment about if you what was it, if you give a mouse a piece of cheese or whatever.
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Break that down for us, Lynn. What did that mean? The prosecutor asked him, so who are these people who want to kill you?
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And he said, well, I don't want to give a mouse to cheese. And basically he was saying that by saying their names, he was elevating the whole issue.
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So they closed the court. And then I guess he revealed two names of people that we don't know.
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I would be curious to know how much his wife Miranda knew, if he would tell us. Like, when did she find out about his faked death?
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I would love to talk to her again, too, Miranda. I'd love to get her reaction to what is happening now. Because she said, remember, if anyone would know, I would, you know, if he was a bad person. I mean, and we you and I were talking about this, like he's on one hand, it's there's elements of this that are kind of humorous, you know, the falling and the characters and all that.
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But there are real victims in this, some alleged, some victims. But I mean, he is accused of rape, violent rape.
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And that is no laughing matter. And so he's kind of a weird dichotomy. It's one of those ones you're sort of confused to how you should react to this man, right?
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And how you should talk about him. It's very like I've never really encountered someone like him.
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That reporter in Scotland that you interviewed, she said, I've been a journalist for 30 years.
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I've never met anyone like him. Yeah. So it's across the board. We're all feeling the same.
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And it goes to the title of the show, The Man of Many Faces, right? So maybe there is one man that you laugh at, and then there's one man that you're scared of.
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And, you know, it's... And one man you feel sorry for because he had a terrible upbringing, a terrible childhood.
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You know, that's hard. when we get back a bonus clip with a local pub owner who saw the con man from behind the bar.
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What do you think about his voice? Do you think the like talking like that? Do you think that that
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could be real, that that's a side effect of COVID? Or do you think that that's a put on voice and
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that the moment the cameras go away, he talks to Miranda normally? Yeah. So when he did the interview with you and he was in Scotland, I believe that some of it was true and some of it was a little bit put on because he really did want to communicate his side to you. And sometimes you just couldn't understand him. And so you'd turn to Miranda and say, could you basically tell me what he just said? But that stuttering thing seemed that seemed put on to me.
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But even today, he has that his voice is definitely been affected. And maybe that's from having oxygen going constantly that that could also affect your vocal cords. I don't know.
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Yeah, it's, you know, when we talk about this man of many faces and, you know, he had to really keep up the accents and like, you know, his profession and all like different people that he spoke to, maybe he was different things.
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We have a clip with a pub owner we sat down with in Glasgow who shared an Arthur Knight story.
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Let's take a listen to what he had to say. So in the UK, we have a dish called coronation chicken, which is a standard thing for buffets, weddings, bowling clubs and stuff like that.
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And we were having coronation chicken for lunch one day and I had some extra wraps and I asked him if he wanted a coronation chicken wrap.
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We kind of like that in here, quite friendly, quite open. And he didn't know what coronation chicken was.
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So that was odd for you. But not at the time. At the time I was just thinking, you know, old money guy, I don't
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know what they have at the buffets, you know. But coronation chicken is like sausage rolls
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or whatever at a buffet or sandwiches or whatever you know So with hindsight that strange that you wouldn know what that was you know so that with hindsight that that that strange that he wouldn know what that was you know Most people from this area would know or or most people yeah most people in the
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UK would be aware of what Coronation Chicken is, yeah, he wasn't. So, you know, with hindsight that, you know, that was his, his, that was his mask slipping
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again, you know. So you had his name slipped, his American accent would occasionally slip, and he didn't
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know what Coronation Chicken was. Correct. And the case is cracked with the pub owner.
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The case is cracked. I actually looked up what Coronation Chicken is. And it's spicy with dried apricots and curry, cumin, turmeric, ginger, and other spices.
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That sounds kind of good, actually. It does. It does. And it was trivia here for all our listeners who saw the episode.
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Where was the other chicken mentioned? Quick, think about it. Think about it. Champagne chicken.
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Champagne chicken. Miranda served it to Jane McSorley, the reporter. The reporter, yeah, the champagne chicken. So there you go, two chicken references in one dateline.
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Before we get to the social media comments and questions, you know, I wanted to point out how just how strong Mary was, you know, for coming to Utah from Ohio to she was planning to face him.
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And we were told he was going to be in court and his name was even on the door in the, you know, the docket listing as in person.
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And then he was unfortunately over video. But, you know, good for Mary for for coming to face him.
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And unfortunately, Catherine Heckendorn would have come as well. But she had just given birth to a baby.
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So I like I know you were impressed, Lynn, by Mary and her, you know, her talking, approaching the prosecutor and saying, I'm here if you need anything, if there's a sentencing phase or anything like that.
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Yeah, when we were sitting in the courtroom, I saw who the prosecutor was, and they were talking to his attorney. And so I pointed him out to Mary. I said, you know, that's the prosecutor there. And within minutes, I see her get up, go over, and she introduced herself. And the prosecutor took her information so that if there's a sentencing, she would have a chance to talk to the judge, which is amazing.
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And I also remember when she was doing the interview with you this time, she said he messed with the wrong girl.
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And I thought, yes, he did. I love that. So many of his alleged victims, they were too afraid of him.
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And they didn't pursue it. But she was not backing down. Well, she didn't back down.
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And then, of course, that's the whole reason that this international manhunt was sparked because of what she did.
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He had to register as a sex offender. He had to give up his DNA. And then the prosecutor in Utah, David Levitt, testing the rape kits.
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There you go. There's a hit. There's a hit in Ohio. And that is all because of Mary.
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Yeah. And it was like nine or 10 years later that it happened. Right. So kudos to Mary.
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Kudos to Catherine, who survived and is doing great. And also David Levitt, the former prosecutor, for wanting to test those rape kits on the podcast I do, Dateline True Crime Weekly.
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the other podcast, we hear about all these untested rape kits all over the country.
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And it's sad because each one of those kits represents a woman who says that she was sexually
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assaulted. And why is it not having its due? Why are we not bringing these attackers to justice?
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So, you know, it certainly sparked one of the most unusual stories we've ever done. But also,
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you know, just to talk about untested rape kits. It is such a big deal in this country. And so
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So hopefully, you know, that discussion will continue and more more departments around the country will, you know, pay more attention to that and take that seriously.
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If he did, in fact, commit these rape crimes in Utah, then, you know, sometimes being convicted, you know, for another person's crime can speak for all.
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You know, if he is if he is sentenced to prison, you know, maybe it's it's not perfect justice.
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But we see these in datelines where the victims say, look, I just want him to be behind bars.
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I just want it so he can't hurt anyone else. And that's what I hope, you know, if he is convicted of these crimes, that that's what will give her some peace.
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All right. Up next, your questions from social media. We are back. And one of the biggest questions from social media was why didn't the Scottish courts test Nicholas's DNA to confirm his identity? We heard that over and over again.
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Yes. And in the sentencing, the judge in Scotland, he actually sort of reprimanded the prosecution saying, you know, why was this not why did they not test his DNA?
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It was, you know, it was a rhetorical thing. So the prosecutor didn't respond. So we don't know. We don't know what it is.
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I would imagine based on your interview with Arthur is that he was making it so difficult the whole DNA And so they figured let just go with fingerprints and the tattoos But they weren able to use those until he attacked the doctor
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Because for that charge, they were able to take all that information. And then that's how they
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presented it to the court. Well, even when we were in Scotland, remember, we went to the hearing and
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And he was a no-show because he was becoming increasingly difficult to get him out of the cell and into the transport van or whatever to get him to the courthouse.
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That became a real problem. He's doing that here in the U.S. too. He's doing the same thing.
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And back to the DNA. So when Nicholas got back to the U.S., the prosecutor was finally able to test the DNA, and it was, in fact, Nicholas.
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It was a match, they say. Well, the investigator testified that they did test his DNA and it was, in fact, Nicholas Rossi, Aliverdian.
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There were a lot of questions about the photo of Nicholas in the hospital while he's in a coma.
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Why was he wearing glasses if he was in a coma? Wow. I didn't even notice that, actually.
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I don't think he's in a coma at that moment. I think he's in dire straits, but I think he's out of the coma at that point.
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Okay. Okay. Okay. CyProfessor23 on Facebook said, Wife Miranda obstructing justice and harboring a fugitive, to name a few.
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Those are, okay, that's this user's allegation. She has not been convicted of a crime or charged with a crime.
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This user's husband said, She's Scotland's problem now. So the question is, will Miranda face any charges?
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I don't think so. I mean, they would have to prove that she knew that he was a fugitive, which we don't know that she knows that.
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Yeah. Until she says it. I mean. Yeah. I think it would be very hard to prosecute her.
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Plus, Scotland, I feel like it's just like, yeah, your problem. They're kind of done with it.
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But it does actually open up that question of Miranda. You know, we talked about it earlier.
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Did Miranda, what did she know, not know? So as far as Nicholas's other identity, you know, that he's an American, you know, there's a good chance she probably did know if he was if he was doing this on purpose to save his life, as he says, that people were after him.
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He probably would tell his wife, right? Or maybe that's what he said. He said, I'm I'm pretending not that I'm a fugitive from justice, but I'm pretending to be somebody else because there are people who want to kill me.
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So then she would she'd have no culpability there. Right. And again, we don't know this.
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We're speculating. We have absolutely no idea. This is just sort of based on covering the story for a long time together.
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Cynthia Perna Tulin on Facebook said about Nicholas, should have used his smarts for good and not the evil he unleashed on everyone.
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I've thought that many times because there was a part of him that wanted to do that.
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You know, he really did want to change the law because when he was in the foster care system, he was in the system where they would put him in a different house every single night.
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Like, how is a child supposed to flourish in a situation like that? And that was one of the things he was trying to change.
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Yeah, it's a shame that he couldn't have taken all of his smarts and energy and just kept on that path.
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But yeah, absolutely. He was the victim of abuse himself. So it was a challenge.
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It is a challenge. So the prosecutor in Utah has offered him a plea deal. He's been given some time to think it over. If he decides to go to trial, there could be two trials. Lynn, do we know the maximum sentence he's facing?
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It's five to life. That's what it is. Oh, wow. Okay. If you're convicted, it's five to life, so that every five years you'd have a chance to get out, I guess.
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Okay. Okay. So this plea deal sounds like a no-brainer unless he wants to roll the dice with a judge or a jury.
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Well, we know that he has very strong convictions, so he'd have to admit that he raped these two women.
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Lynn, thank you so much for this kind of special edition of Talking Dateline. Thanks for having me.
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Yeah, it was fun talking with you since we've been on this journey together, this bizarre journey.
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So look forward to continuing to follow this story in 2025 as we see how it unfolds and what happens to Nicholas.
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And getting another interview. I was thinking the same thing. Are you listening?
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Are you listening? Thank you. That's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.
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And be sure to check out Josh's new original podcast, Deadly Mirage. Episodes 1 to 5 are out now, and the final episode will be released Thursday for those who have been waiting to binge the series.
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Dateline Premium subscribers can listen to all six episodes now, ad-free. And of course, we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
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Thanks for listening. Thank you.