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Hey, Paul. Good morning. You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting. How are things on the
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West Coast? Early. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
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We know that we have this person of interest, but we don't know what the connection is at all.
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He'll almost certainly be in Alabama in custody. They have 72 hours to arrest him. He says,
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I did it. I murdered him. I wanted her. Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning.
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It's March 20th, and here's what's on our docket. The Zizians have surfaced again.
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According to law enforcement, the group of radical vegans is connected to violent deaths in multiple states.
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Their leader was in court last month. I haven't done anything wrong. I shouldn't be here.
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In Dateline Roundup this week, we'll tell you all about an important ruling in the Karen Reed case.
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Lori Vallow Daybell has some decisions to make about her upcoming trial. And we've got a major development from the Dominican Republic on a missing college student.
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They've asked the police to declare her dead, even though nobody has been found.
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Plus, tens of thousands of Americans have fallen for a new scam known as pig butchering.
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Our NBC News justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delanian has the details.
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It goes on so long that often people think they're making money, but then eventually they find that they don't have access to their funds anymore and they've lost everything.
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But before all that, we're heading back to a Los Angeles courtroom and the trial of the woman accused of conspiring to murder her hairstylist husband.
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The defense's star witness has finally taken the stand. We've heard the name Robert Baker countless times over the course of the Monica Sementilli trial.
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For six weeks, the prosecution built a case that put him squarely at the center of the murder.
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They told the jury Baker was Monica's lover and the person she conspired with to kill her husband, Fabio.
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In 2023, he pleaded no contest to the murder and is serving a sentence of life without parole.
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But Baker has consistently denied that Monica had anything to do with the crime.
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Last week, the defense finally called him to the stand. Did she have anything to do with the planning or the execution of the plan to kill Fabio Cimentelli?
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No. You're sure? I'm positive. Over the course of several days, Robert Baker told the jury his side of the story,
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often offering explicit details and frequently clashing with the prosecution. Dateline producer Chetna Joshi is here to tell us about what Baker had to say
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and where the rest of the trial goes from here. Chetna, thanks so much for coming back on.
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Good to be with you. So we've heard a lot about Robert Baker in this case so far, and now we've finally seen
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the man himself. Yeah, so we have been sort of building to this moment, and it was fascinating to finally
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see Robert Baker in person. He was wearing a collared shirt and a blazer, and if it weren't for the handcuffs on his
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wrists, he would look like any other normal witness. So he had the cuffs on during testimony?
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Yes, he had the cuffs on on his hand. And, you know, even just the very first question from the court clerk when he had to raise his right hand to be sworn in, you can see his cuffs.
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Okay, so how did the defense start with him? I know that they wanted to introduce his background.
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Right. He tells us that he served in the military for over a decade and said that his highest rank was a staff sergeant.
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And it was sort of an interesting moment when the defense attorney asked if he considered himself a good soldier.
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Robert Baker replied that he considered himself to be one of the best. Yeah. And is it true Robert Baker was at one point a porn star?
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He starred in X-rated movies and also managed the careers of other performers. It's a really diverse, diverse resume.
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That's quite the background. And so then they also, this is key here. He started working at LA Fitness, which is, of course, where he met Monica.
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Correct. Yes. And that's when the defense really launches into the heart of this case, which is his time at LA Fitness.
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He says that he started there in 2015 and then he met Monica. I was running a racquetball league.
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Now, is this something you had done before? No, never. How'd you get into league racquetball league?
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I'm a smart guy. Okay. Well, I wouldn't comment on that. Within a couple of weeks, these two are hooking up, Monica and Robert.
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There was some discussion about how they would sneak around. Yeah, he was asked when their relationship started and how often he would see Monica.
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Robert Baker responded that it was very sporadic. So it could be once a week, once every two weeks or three times a week.
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It all depends on who's doing what between the both of us. And how did you determine when you would see her?
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She called the shots on that based on her schedule. Naturally, in the defense's eyes, of course she would be calling the shots on that.
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She's the one with a husband, with a family. But that phrase that Robert Baker used in his testimony, that she called the shots,
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It it I when I heard that I thought oh my gosh the prosecutors must be like hoping that the jury keys into that phrase if she called the shots about when she's meeting with him.
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She also called the shots on this entire murder operation is what the prosecution would want the jury to see the prosecution alleges that Robert Baker and Monica Simentelli planned this so they could be together they could have Fabio money Since Robert Baker is saying that that is not true
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that she had nothing to do with this, what is he saying was his motive for killing Fabio?
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According to Robert Baker's testimony, it got to a point where he said at the end of 2016,
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he said he was not seeing her as much as he wanted to. And as he described it, it sort of did a number on him.
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And he couldn't handle it. So did she talk to you about, ever tell you that she would divorce her husband for you?
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We touched on it lightly, but I could tell that she wasn't going to do that. That wasn't going to happen.
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And eventually, did that become one of the reasons why you decided to murder him?
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I murdered him because I wanted her. One of the most riveting parts of Baker's testimony is describing the killing on the stand.
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Yes. You know, it's rare. Again, this has happened now twice in this trial. We, you know,
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it's rare to hear an admitted killer talk about how a murder has gone down. And this time we've
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heard it through Christopher Austin, the other man that was with Robert Baker at the time of the
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murder. Now we heard it through Robert Baker. And I'm struggling with him and I'm trying to get away
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from him. He's a pretty big guy. And I just kind of, I said to myself, I need to get him off me.
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I need to cut him. I took one stab to get him and let go of me. He let go. And I just kind of
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blacked out and just just try to get him off me and just kept cutting until he stopped till he got
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off me the defense wanted to get it out there almost a preemptive strike that robert baker has
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lied about the case in the past yeah when when someone who has done something like this is now
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telling the jury what they've done how do you believe him and what robert baker was telling
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the jury is, look, I have nothing to lose here. Now, you are a convicted murderer, correct?
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Yes. And you committed a heinous crime. Yeah, I did. But are you telling the truth
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about what happened? It's nothing to lose. That was really something that the defense attorney
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wanted the jury to hone in on, is that unlike Christopher Austin, who had something to gain
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because of his testimony. Robert Baker doesn't. And the prosecution really pounced on that.
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You know, of course, no surprise on on the lies, the inconsistencies of Robert Baker's story.
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Yes. As soon as the prosecutor got up who was cross examining him, I mean, she pounced on him
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and over several days has been chipping away at almost everything that he said on direct exam.
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she had a response for. She wanted to, no matter how seemingly small a fact might be,
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she wanted to show the jury that this is not a witness that should be trusted. So how many times had you entered the Sementilly home through the back door?
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Two, three, I don't know. No exact number because I don't want to be called a liar again,
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so I can't give you an exact number. There's no way. I can't give you an exact number.
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Give us an estimate. I don't want to do that. I mean, you said that it was... The calling me a lying days is coming to an end, so I don't do that.
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Oh, no, trust me, it isn't. The defense is expected to wrap up here pretty soon, Chetna.
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Then we'll hear the closing arguments. Such a complicated case and trial. Thank you, Chetna, for breaking it down for us.
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We appreciate it. Oh, really good being with you, Andrea. Up next, according to law enforcement,
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a group of radical vegans, is connected to violent deaths in multiple states. Next week, three of them will go on trial in Maryland.
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About a month ago, a man in western Maryland called the police and said three people dressed in black were camping out on his property in box trucks.
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When officers arrived, they discovered that the alleged trespassers were wanted for questioning in three other states.
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They'd stumbled across the Zizians. And not just that, they'd found the Zizians' elusive leader.
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Jack Lasota, who identifies as a woman, Michelle Zyko and Daniel Blank, they face trespassing and handgun charges here in Maryland.
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All three were arrested Sunday in Frostburg. People who've interacted with them say they act like a cult.
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Consisting of mostly transgender tech workers who subscribe to what's called radical veganism.
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And law enforcement says the Zizians are linked to six violent deaths around the country.
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Four Zizians are awaiting trial in California and Vermont. But until that day in Maryland, their leader had not been found.
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Next week, Jack Lasota, or Ziz as she calls herself, will stand trial on trespassing and gun charges.
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My next guest, NBC News investigative reporter Rich Shapiro, says that may be just the start of her legal troubles.
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Hi, Rich. Thanks for coming on the podcast. My pleasure. Okay, so just remind us about the deaths the Zizians are suspected of being wrapped up in.
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When you and I first spoke, Rich, two of the group's members had allegedly been involved in a shootout with border police in Vermont.
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That led to the deaths of one of the officers and one of the Zizians. three other Zizians were awaiting trial in California for an assault involving a samurai
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sword and a murder was the incident in Maryland also violent it wasn violent but this wasn your typical police encounter First off according to the probable cause statement these people were all dressed in black and they were well armed
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In one of the trucks, police found a rifle and a handgun. Two of the Zizians were wearing ammo belts and one of them had another gun in her waistband.
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And all three resisted arrest by refusing to tell the police their names and not giving them their IDs.
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As we mentioned, Ziz was in one of those box trucks. Who else was with her? There were two other people.
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There was a person named Michelle Zajko and a man named Daniel Blank. Now, Michelle's parents were murdered in their home about two years ago.
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And according to the probable cause statement in the Maryland arrest, Daniel is under investigation for their homicide.
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And that double homicide happened in Pennsylvania. Why do investigators want to talk to Daniel?
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According to the Pennsylvania state troopers, Michelle owned a gun and ammunition of the same type that was used in the murders.
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And they actually tracked her down to a hotel looking for that gun. They served her with a search warrant for that gun, but she didn't have it.
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And they instead found it in a different room in the hotel, and that room was occupied by Daniel Blank and Ziz Lasota.
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They didn't charge anyone with the homicide, although Ziz was so uncooperative that she was arrested on charges of obstructing the investigation.
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She essentially played dead, one of the troopers said in court. She wouldn't tell the troopers her name or even get up off the ground, so they had to physically carry her out of the room.
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and she even kept her eyes closed in the mugshot. Ziz ultimately made bail, but then skipped town and a bench warrant was issued.
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Have we learned any more of what this group's beliefs are? Why people around them keep dying?
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There's still a lot we don't know about this group, but what we do know is they're really concerned about AI, about artificial intelligence.
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Of course, ChatGPT and companies like OpenAI are full steam ahead now on artificial intelligence and are worth billions of dollars.
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But about 10 to 15 years ago, there were some very smart people who thought AI could turn against humans eventually, almost like a Terminator storyline.
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And these people took it really seriously, congregating online and in the Bay Area.
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And these Zizians, they splintered off from this broader group. They seem to have taken these concerns about AI destroying humanity to a different level.
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And they seem to have believed that basically anything that would stop this threat from becoming real was justified, even violence.
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And they saw themselves as being potential heroes in the future for being ones who could prevent that.
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Why is this group moving around the country and living out of box trucks? Yeah, the box truck lifestyle, it's really related to how insanely expensive housing is in the Bay Area.
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These young people moved there to be part of this AI-focused community, but not all of them could get jobs in the field or make enough money.
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So there's a lot of group houses, there's roommates, some squatting. And Ziz came up with the idea of living on a boat to try to avoid the high rents.
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she and some compatriots bought a tugboat in Alaska and piloted it down to the San Francisco Bay.
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Wow. But the plan ultimately fell apart. The tugboat sank, and Ziz moved the group to box trucks.
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There was a bail hearing for the three Zizians in Maryland. I know you didn't learn a whole lot there from what I understand, but Rich, we did get to hear from Ziz.
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Yeah, so Ziz spoke and spoke out of turn quite frequently. I need the jail to be ordered for me to have a vegan diet.
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It's more important than whatever this hearing is. All right, I've asked you to please hold on and not speak right now.
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And her concern was the diet that the jail had been giving her. She said it wasn't vegan, and so she was starving, essentially.
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It's such a small thing to die over. And she also talked about being almost delirious and that that made it such that she couldn't really help in her defense.
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So what ultimately happened at this hearing? Were they released? They were not released. The prosecutor had pointed out Ziz's flight from prosecution in Pennsylvania.
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And a footnote in this story that we haven't even talked about. And it is important to note that at some point in the last several years, Mr. Lissota faked his death, we believe, to escape investigation at that time.
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Yeah, back in August of 2022, the Coast Guard got a distress call. Someone said Ziz had fallen over the side of her boat in the San Francisco Bay and just disappeared.
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Ziz's hometown paper in Alaska actually published an obituary for her. And that isn't even the only fake death in the group.
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several years ago on the same day in August 2022 that the Coast Guard was searching the bay looking
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for Ziz's body, a lawyer told the California court that he believed his client, Gwen Danielson,
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had died by suicide. Ziz and Gwen, they stayed on the tugboat together. Now, as in last month,
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Gwen's father has spoken to some media outlets saying that Gwen left the Zizians but is alive
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and maybe now will come forward and talk about what the group is trying to do or has done.
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now that Ziz is in custody. You can't make this stuff up. Okay, Ziz, Michelle, and Daniel Blank,
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they'll all be in court next week? Yeah, that's right. On Monday. We hope to hear more.
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It will also be interesting to see if another law enforcement agency will try to take them into custody to get some answers about what happened to Michelle parents OK Rich I don know how you keeping this all straight but thank you
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You can read Rich Shapiro's reporting on the Zizians at NBC News dot com. Thank you so much.
00:18:12
Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We've got an update on the Karen Reed case and the latest from the Dominican Republic where a college student went missing two weeks ago.
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Plus, have you heard of pig butchering? It's a new kind of financial scam. Our NBC News Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Ken Delanian, will be here to give us all the details.
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Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is Dateline producer Sue Simpson.
00:18:50
Hey, Sue. Hey, Andrea. All right, for our first story, we are back in Dedham, Massachusetts for the latest on the Karen Reed case.
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She is the woman accused of killing her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022, something she denies.
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And she is heading to trial for a second time in a few weeks after her first trial ended with a hung jury.
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So you were in court on Tuesday for a pretrial hearing in the case. What can you tell us?
00:19:17
Well, Andrea, there was a ruling on an issue we've been talking about on the podcast for the past few weeks involving Reed's defense team and two expert witnesses they called to testify at her trial.
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The prosecution accused the defense of not disclosing how closely they worked with those two witnesses on their testimony and that they paid them thousands of dollars after the trial.
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The defense said they didn't do anything to cover up intentionally. What did the judge decide?
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Well, on Tuesday, the judge ruled that the defense attorneys did, in fact, make repeated misrepresentations, her words, about their relationship with the two experts.
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And Judge Cannoni issued an exceptionally stern warning to the defense. I'm not going to tolerate false statements, any stretching of the truth, no misleading distortions.
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There's no place for that in the courtroom. But the judge ruled that despite its misrepresentations, the defense team, including Alan Jackson, can remain in place and the experts are going to be allowed to testify again at Reed's second trial.
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On top of that, there was also a ruling by a federal judge in this case last week.
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Correct. That judge ruled that Karen Reed will be tried on the same three charges she faced at her first trial. Her defense team was trying to get the second degree murder and the leaving the scene of the accident charges thrown out since they say several jurors contacted them after the trial and said the jury had unanimously agreed to acquit Reed on those two charges and they were only hung on the manslaughter charge.
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But the federal judge said that wasn't enough to dismiss the charges, and her team is appealing that decision.
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And the defense has made a request to push back the trial date? Alan Jackson made that request because of that appeal that we just discussed.
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So we'll have to wait and see what the judge rules on that. Okay, for our next story, we're off to the Dominican Republic for an update in the case of Sudikshah Kunanki.
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the 20-year-old University of Pittsburgh student who disappeared from Apuntacana Beach on March 6th.
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Yeah, the only sign of Kunanki they found are items of her clothing on a beach chair.
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And she was last seen with a 22-year-old college senior from Iowa. His name is Joshua Reby.
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And last weekend, Reby was seen by NBC News on the beach with investigators pointing towards the sea.
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He said, I'm just trying to help them out. The ocean is a dangerous place. According to the police in the DR, this is not a criminal investigation, but Rebe's lawyers were in court this week regardless.
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They requested his release, and it was granted. He left the Dominican Republic on Wednesday.
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And there was another major development, Sue, this week regarding her family and their wishes.
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Yes, there was. We are coming to terms with the fact that our daughter has down.
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This is incredibly difficult for us to process. They've asked the police to declare her dead, even though no body has been found.
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So tough for them. Yeah. For our final story, we're off to Phoenix, where convicted killer Lori Vallow Daybell was in court on Tuesday for a hearing ahead of her March 31st trial.
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She is accused of conspiring to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. She denies having anything to do with his death, and she's representing herself at this trial.
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What went down at the hearing? Well, the judge laid out some parameters for Lori if she chooses to testify in her own defense.
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If you do want to testify, it will be question and answer, meaning you need to write out all your questions that you want to be asked.
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You can't take the witness stand and just give a narrative. The judge also looked over witness lists,
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and the prosecution is asking that one of Lori's expert witnesses be blocked? That's correct.
00:23:06
The witness Lori is requesting is a tech expert who would review 22 terabytes of information on a hard drive.
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The problem is, according to the prosecution, the expert doesn't have enough time to review all that evidence before trial,
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and the judge basically asked Lori if she wanted to postpone the trial to give the expert more time.
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That's going to take him time to extract and analyze and then prepare a report, months maybe.
00:23:30
I understand that, Your Honor, and I'm hoping he can do it in an expedited manner.
00:23:34
You're the one pressing for your speedy trial, So you want to go to trial or you want to have him do that work that you want? Because I don't
00:23:40
think both are going to happen. But Lori said she wants the trial to continue on schedule with
00:23:45
whatever information the expert can gather in time. I'm sure Keith's team will be following
00:23:50
this closely. And any listeners who want to learn more about Lori Vallow-Daybell's case
00:23:55
can listen to Keith's podcast, Mommy Doomsday, or check out as a of jailhouse interview with Lori that aired recently.
00:24:02
You can also hear Keith tell me more behind-the-scenes details on Talking Dateline.
00:24:06
We'll put links to those shows in the episode notes. Okay, Sue, thank you so much for joining us.
00:24:12
Thanks, Andrea. For our final story, we've caught wind of a new cryptocurrency scam that's sweeping the nation,
00:24:21
one that potentially plays on people's hearts and their wallets. It's been given the name pig butchering and it's so widespread the FBI is intervening.
00:24:32
Our next guest, NBC News Justice and Intelligence correspondent Ken Delanian, is here to tell us what exactly the FBI is doing about it and how to avoid the scam yourself.
00:24:42
Hi, Ken. Hey, Andrea. Good to be with you. You too. OK, so this is such a horrible, horrible term.
00:24:47
First of all, pig butchering. Why that phrase and what does it mean? Yeah, it is awful. It comes from a Chinese term meaning fattening up the hog for slaughter.
00:24:57
And the hog in this case is the victim. Because this is a long con where a victim is encouraged to invest money and believes that they are actually making money,
00:25:06
the scammers are fattening up the hog for slaughter, trying to get the people to fork over as much of their life savings as they can
00:25:14
and even borrow money to give over to these scammers. So, OK, so how do they carry it out?
00:25:19
They reach out over social media. Often they're trying to sort of create a romance park,
00:25:26
but not always. I've interviewed victims where romance was not involved at all. It was just
00:25:30
really a great investment idea. And then over a long period of time, the person seduces the victim,
00:25:37
develops a relationship and then says oh and by the way I have this great investment opportunity for you in cryptocurrency and then drags them along that way And a lot of people don understand what cryptocurrency is and how to invest in it They know though that a lot of people have made
00:25:51
a lot of money in it. And so, you know, romance scams are as old as humanity, right? But this
00:25:56
combines the romance scam aspect with social engineering to find people who are vulnerable
00:26:01
with this sort of mystery around cryptocurrency. And, you know, it goes on so long that often
00:26:06
And people think they're making money, but then eventually they find that they don't have access to their funds anymore and they've lost everything.
00:26:12
Awful. Who is behind the scams? I'm sure it's very difficult to catch these people.
00:26:17
It's multiple organizations, but the big drivers are believed to be organized criminal groups located in Southeast Asia.
00:26:25
And they're big operations, sometimes involving hundreds or even thousands of people.
00:26:30
You have spoken to the FBI and they have launched something called Operation Level Up.
00:26:35
what kind of progress are they making in combating these scammers? Yeah, so this is a really interesting thing that they're doing.
00:26:42
The FBI has gotten very good at tracing crypto because cryptocurrency transactions are in the open.
00:26:47
So the FBI can see this. And what they've started to do is claw back some of this money.
00:26:52
So they've actually been able to get victims back their money. And then the other thing they do is if they see evidence that someone is being scammed,
00:26:59
because the FBI has a lot of cyber surveillance going on and they're looking at some of these criminal groups.
00:27:04
I spoke to a victim. He was about to take out a loan and go further into debt and turn that money over to the scammers.
00:27:12
And he got a call from the FBI who said, hey, you're in the middle of a cryptocurrency scam.
00:27:16
Don't give them that money. So that saved him from further pain. But you know I got to say that is a small small percentage of the of the larger universe of money that being stolen They don they don get most of it What are some signs people should look out for
00:27:31
The basic rule of thumb is you should never invest in anything, but particularly cryptocurrency, based on a solicitation that you got on social media or online.
00:27:41
But also just in general, if people are reaching out to you that you don't know and are acting familiar and trying to become your friend, you should have a healthy dose of skepticism about that and do your due diligence.
00:27:55
You have spoken to some of these victims. And the one thing we can't stress enough is this can happen to anyone.
00:28:04
It's remarkable that you're exactly right. I spoke to a cancer researcher, like an esteemed scientist who essentially turned over his life savings, falling victim to this scam.
00:28:16
And again, it goes back to you could be a sophisticated person, but somehow people keep falling for this idea that these folks have a unique way to make money and you can only do it through them.
00:28:27
And then people just fall victim. Ken, to anyone who's embarrassed that they were taken by this, what's your advice?
00:28:33
You know, I asked that question to a federal prosecutor because so many people are embarrassed.
00:28:37
And I said, what is your message to these people? And she said, you are not alone.
00:28:41
Tens of thousands of people are being scammed in this way. As soon as you realize you've been the victim of a con, please report it to the FBI because
00:28:49
they might be able to get some of your money back. They might be able to catch these people.
00:28:53
If you don't report it, the chances of that go way down. Yeah. OK, great advice.
00:28:58
Thank you, Ken, for joining us and for raising awareness about this. Great to be with you.
00:29:03
So here something new we trying If you have any true crime questions you want our team to look into anything you always wanted to know about investigative techniques legal terminology scams you heard about anything at all
00:29:17
we'd love to hear your voice on the podcast. Send us an audio message on social at Dateline NBC,
00:29:23
and we'll see if we can get some answers for you. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly.
00:29:29
To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, Subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, it's a case I've been following for nearly a decade.
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When a beloved doctor was fatally poisoned at her workplace, investigators narrowed in on a most unusual suspect.
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But now a new ruling, new questions, and a stunning development have turned this case upside down.
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It all just really came out of the blue. Maybe this isn't the slam dunk case that some people think it is.
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A lot of people's heads are spinning with all of this. Watch Poison Twist this Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central, or stream it on Peacock starting this Saturday.
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Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson.
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Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff.
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Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazzaka is our digital producer.
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Rick Kwan is our sound designer. original music by Jesse McGinty Bryson Barnes is head of audio production
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Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline
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Good stuff Alright, see you everybody