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Hey, good morning, everyone. Good morning. You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting.
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Oh, is that a Kentucky Derby horse? Yeah, it's called journalism. Oh, cool. Our team of producers is swapping tips about cases in the news.
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This is fairly high profile, kind of splashy. What was the evidence that got them to arrest him now?
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He says, that's my ex-girlfriend. She did this. Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly.
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I'm Andrea Canning. It's May 1st, and here's what's on our docket. In Ohio, a man is arrested for the decades-old murder of his wife.
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24 years after her body was found at the bottom of a pond, how did a latex face mask and a bizarre arson plot lead investigators to his door?
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They learned that there were some really bizarre purchases a short time before the fire started.
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In Dateline Roundup, we've got the latest on two blockbuster cases, The sex trafficking trial of music producer Sean Combs and the murder trial of Brian Koberger.
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And an unexpected development in the case of the Florida businessman accused of murdering his estranged wife in Spain.
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Some pretty shocking news. Plus, for the first time on the podcast, we're joined by a sheriff.
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As we head into a summer of big trials, Sheriff James Brown tells us what it's like trying to keep people safe inside and outside the courtroom.
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You just have to have a lot of plans and flexibility to be able to address any threat that comes up.
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Before all that, we've got the latest from Dedham, Massachusetts, and the retrial of Karen Reed.
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It's the start of another day in the second trial of the woman accused of drunkenly hitting her police officer boyfriend with her SUV
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and leaving him to die in a snowbank three years ago. All right, good morning, counsel.
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Good morning, Ms. Reed. Good morning, jurors. Good morning. Karen Reed denies the charges against her
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and claims that after she dropped John O'Keefe off at a party, he got beaten up by some of the people there,
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attacked by a dog, and dragged onto the front lawn to die in a blizzard. Last summer, a jury deadlocked after five days of deliberation.
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This week at Karen's retrial, the new prosecutor on the case painstakingly laid out a timeline of what he says happened the night John died.
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He introduced some fresh evidence and also brought back old witnesses. Here to tell us how that played out in the courtroom is Dateline producer Sue Simpson,
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who joins us now from Massachusetts to give us the latest. And Sue, did you win the lottery this week and get a seat in court?
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I have not won the lottery yet, but there's always next week. Last week, you and I talked about how Hank Brennan, the prosecutor, promised to take the jury step by step through the events using data from John's and also Karen's phones.
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So what story is he telling? So last week, Andrea, we heard investigators read text messages from Karen's phone establishing that John and Karen had a fight in the hours before John's death.
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Those text messages show that they made up, the two of them made up, but the prosecutor wanted jurors to know that their relationship was far from perfect.
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The prosecutor's next big witness on Monday morning was someone who could use John's phone to tell jurors what happened next in the timeline.
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The prosecution's version of events, of course. You were talking about digital forensic examiner Ian Whiffen, and he's a witness we've been looking forward to because some of this is new testimony this time around.
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Yes, yes. Prosecutor Brennan got Ian Whiffen to talk about the temperature of the battery in John's cell phone, something I honestly knew nothing about until this retrial started.
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Yeah, me neither. And that was a big point during opening statements. Why does cell phone temperature matter?
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So the prosecution's theory is that John O'Keefe was lying grievously wounded in a blizzard,
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so you'd expect his phone, if he had it with him, to get colder and colder and colder from the moment Karen drove away.
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Remember, this is the prosecution's POV. So apparently our phone batteries log their own temperature often, and that's to make sure they don't overheat.
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Now, investigators can use that data to figure out how cold or hot it is outside where the phone is.
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So when Wiffen was on the stand, the prosecution had him walk the jury through a graph he'd created that showed John's phone getting colder on the drive to the party, from the bar to the after party, and then getting steadily colder and colder.
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The prosecution argued this means that John's phone never went inside the house.
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Karen's defense, of course, challenged Wiffen, this expert, on cross-examination.
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Right, right. So we know that there was a blizzard, as I've said, on the night that John died, and as all our listeners know,
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but John O'Keefe's phone stays somewhere between 50 and 40 degrees from 1.30 a.m. to 6 a.m.
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Then it gets colder right when Karen finds John and John's phone is discovered under him.
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Do you know what the temperature was in Canton January 29, 2022? I do not know. Don't you think that that would be an important piece of information?
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I didn't think it was. So what does that say to the defense? You know, it's really confusing.
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The whole picture isn't straightforward. And remember that this kind of data hasn't been used often.
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It hasn't been widely studied. You know, you have to wonder if the jury, how much weight they'll put into it.
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You do. So after that expert, Jen McCabe took the stand. And she's one of the headliners in this trial.
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She was at the party that night. Right. And to remind everyone Jen McCabe is the friend of good friend of John O She was also with Karen the next morning when they discovered John body So this is the second time that I have seen Jen McCabe on the stand And I did notice this time
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that she repeated again and again that there was a lot of screaming that morning, that Karen was
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screaming at phone calls, that Karen was screaming at her when they met. I was downstairs making
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coffee. I go to my front door and I open it and she's screaming, 10, 10. She's screaming that three
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times. Jen also testified that Karen did not remember going to the after-party house. I had
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told her, Karen, I saw you guys outside, and then she told me she didn't remember being there.
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And then she started saying, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Just all over the place,
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like screaming my name, screaming so many different things. There were three women out
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looking for John O'Keefe early that morning in the dark, in the wind, in the awful snow.
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So Carrie Roberts, another good friend of John's, Jen McKay, both in the front seat, and then Karen in the back.
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Remember, Karen was the first to see the body, and she basically kicked her way out of the car
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because the other women couldn't see this dark blob lying on the snow. And all of a sudden, Karen's screaming from the back, there he is, or something to the effect of, there he is, let me out.
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Did you know what she was talking about? I had no idea. Like, she's batshit crazy.
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Then what happens? Carrie got out, then I got out of the car, walked around the back of the car.
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And when Jen came around, she realized when she saw Carrie Roberts wiping the snow off John's face,
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she realized, that's my friend. That's my really good friend. And she got choked up on the stand for the first time.
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Is that the first moment you realized that that was John O'Keefe on the ground? Yes, it was.
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What do you do? I was frozen. I was shocked. I couldn't believe that was him just lying there.
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That must have been very hard for Jen McCabe. Something that she, of course, was asked about
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by the prosecution was that infamous Google search, how's long to die in cold, that was meant to be how long to die in cold.
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According to the defense, Jen made the search overnight, hours before Karen even knew John was
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missing. So that goes to their theory of some kind of attack on John and then a cover-up by people at
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the party. Sue, what did we hear about that this time around? Right. So Jen McCabe testified that
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she went home from the after party. She was in bed and it was 2.27 in the morning. And she was
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just Googling her daughter's sports teams and various things in that realm of her life.
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Peaceful night? Yes. Did you go to sleep, Ms. McCabe? Yes. So she said, of course, that she
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didn't type in Haas Long to die in the cold until about 6.23 in the morning at the scene of John's
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body when Karen asked her to please find out how long it takes for somebody to die in the cold.
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Has there been an expert up to say that sometimes Google searches get the times wrong?
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According to the prosecution and the expert from earlier, Ian Whiffen, Jan McCabe opened a browser
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window, 227 in the morning, and that when Karen asked her at 623 in the morning, find out how long
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it takes to die in the cold, she was using the same browser window. I've always wondered about
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that. So Sue, do you feel like this trial is similar to last year, or do you feel like it's
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taking on a different vibe? This is a different trial, without question. And just here's an
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example. I got to court on Tuesday morning at 8 a.m. I wanted to see what the scene was outside
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because obviously I remembered it from the last trial. And I counted one by one and there were
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only 19 protesters. And it even looked like, you know, some of their signs were kind of beaten up
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and they were weathered. Now, of course, things could change. The weather's going to get better.
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But it was just a moment in time where I thought, yep, things have changed. Sue, thank you so much. Maybe next week you'll win the lottery.
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Thanks, Andrea. I sure hope so. Coming up, before he was arrested for the murder of his estranged wife,
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an Ohio man was accused of an elaborate plot involving a Mission Impossible-style face mask and arson.
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On the evening of October 18, 2001, 25-year-old Regina Rowe Hicks left her boyfriend's house
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in Huron County, Ohio to pick up her son. She never arrived. A few days later, her body was
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found inside her car at the bottom of a pond. Her family was devastated. For years, they were
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tormented by unanswered questions. They were sure Regina had been murdered. It was like gripping a piece of your insides out and you ain't gonna get that back.
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Now, almost 24 years later, there has been an arrest in the case and it's a name the family
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knows well. Regina's estranged husband, Paul Hicks. Hicks has pleaded not guilty to charges
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of kidnapping and murder and is in jail awaiting trial. But that's not all. As it turns out,
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Paul Hicks is no stranger to law enforcement. In 2022, he pleaded no contest to charges relating to an elaborate arson scheme.
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Here to bring us up to speed is reporter Karen Johnson from our NBC affiliate WLWT in Cincinnati,
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who has been following this case since 2019. Karen, thank you for joining us. Yeah, thank you for having me, Andrea.
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Yeah, so take us back, Karen, to when you first heard about Paul Hicks. This wasn't about murder initially.
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This was for a house fire. Yeah it was in 2019 is when the name Paul Hicks first came on my radar And it was after the Claremont County Ohio Sheriff Office had released a video to us of this massive fire inside a house But what caught my attention even more was what we saw before the fire And we saw two people a male and a female walking into the house
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This woman had long curly hair. They had gas cans. They started clearing the house,
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the electronics, the TVs. So it appeared maybe it was a robbery. Then they doused it
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and lit the house on fire. So Hicks, who owned the house, actually reviewed the security footage with the police
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and said he recognized someone in that video. He said, that's my ex-girlfriend. Looks just like her.
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The hair. And at first, investigators believed it was probably her. They questioned her.
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But there was far more to this than that. Oh, so much more. The ex-girlfriend is saying, absolutely not.
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You know, we broke up. I have no idea what you're talking about. I was not in his house.
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I had nothing to do with this. Okay, so they believe her and they start digging into this and they come up with a completely
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different theory, which, you know, now points the finger at Hicks himself. Yes, it took a lot of investigating and it actually took a civil suit by Allstate.
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Their investigators did so much of the legwork on this and got subpoenas for cell phone records,
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talked to other associates of Paul Hicks, and they learned that there were some really bizarre
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purchases a short time before the fire started. What were these bizarre purchases? One was a wig
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that looked identical to his ex-girlfriend's hair. They also noticed a purchase from a company
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called That's My Face. Oh my, okay. What is That's My Face? Well, that is a company where
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you could send in photos of someone and you can have a mask made to look like that person.
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Okay, this is crazy. So they now believe that Paul Hicks had a special mask made
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to look like his ex-girlfriend? Yes. This is nuts. He also put things in a fireproof box.
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Yes. The video surveillance system, months leading up to the arson, he had purchased a pretty
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elaborate surveillance system. And he had it, according to investigators, in a firebox. So the
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cameras would record. And even if the cameras got destroyed, the data would still be collected.
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So that way he can show investigators, hey, I have video proof that two people walked in the house
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and one appears to me, my ex-girlfriend. So did they think that Paul Hicks himself was wearing
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the mask then of the ex-girlfriend and the wig or someone else? They do not believe it was Paul Hicks.
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investigators believe that he hired two people to go in, set the fire to his home,
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and that way he can frame his ex-girlfriend. The reason why investigators say he tried to frame her
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was so he can get custody of their child and also for the insurance money. How does it all end then with the fire? Something finally happens criminally?
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So 2015 is when the fire took place inside the house. He was indicted in 2019. And finally in
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2022, when we thought this case would be going to trial, we learned there's been a plea deal.
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And all of the felony charges, including the most serious aggravated arson, they were all dropped. And he pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor charge of insurance fraud.
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So he got no time and he ended up leaving Claremont County and moving back to where
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he is from in Northern Ohio. And we should be clear, Karen, And Paul Hicks has never admitted to masterminding a plot to frame anyone.
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He's denied ever trying to get back at his ex-girlfriend or hiring anyone to set that
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fire to his house. You're correct. He has never admitted to the allegations. So it seemed like the dust had settled for Paul Hicks.
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But then last week, he gets indicted in a cold case murder that happened years before
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the fire. Yes, he was indicted on three counts of murder and one count of kidnapping in connection to
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the 2001 murder of his estranged wife, Regina Hicks. He was never named a suspect in Regina's
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death up until he was indicted last week. But family had their suspicions. Friends had their
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suspicions. So according to the indictment, the authorities say that Paul Hicks put her in the
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passenger seat of their car and then drove the car into the pond but left the driver's side
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window rolled down so he could escape. What do prosecutors say was Hicks' motive?
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I can't really speculate, but leading up to it, I've heard they had a rocky marriage towards the end. They had kind of separated. She had a new boyfriend, so it wasn't the best relationship. Why was he charged now? Is it possible that this fire renewed interest?
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I do believe so. I think it put more eyes on Paul Hicks. I know we gave the fire a lot of coverage. A lot of Ohio media organizations gave the fire a lot of coverage. So, you know, I do believe it pushed people more, I think, to open up about what they knew about Paul Hicks. I think more people started talking.
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How has Hicks responded to these new charges? All we know at this point is Hicks did enter a plea of not guilty in court last week,
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but so far that's the only response that he has made is that not guilty plea. His bond is set at $2 million and he has a pretrial hearing on May 19th.
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Karen, thank you so much for joining us. This is a fascinating case. Thank you. Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup.
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We've got updates from the courtroom on the upcoming trials of Sean Combs and Brian Koberger.
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Plus, Sheriff James Brown on keeping courtrooms safe for everyone. Welcome back to the show Joining me for this week Roundup is Dateline Associate Producer Alex LaRae Alex welcome back to the podcast Hi glad to be back So first up we have news of a potentially game pre ruling in the federal
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sex trafficking case against music mogul Sean Diddy Combs. It's about a video that's been at
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the center of this story long before criminal charges were even brought against Combs. Alex,
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Remind us what the video is and what happened with that. It's certainly a lot of people have seen it at this point.
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Yes. So this is a security video that was broadcast by CNN in May of last year. So four months before Combs' arrest.
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It allegedly shows him assaulting his former girlfriend, Cassie, in a hotel hallway in 2016.
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Prosecutors referred to the video in their indictment and want to show it to the jury as a part of their criminal case against him.
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The defense asked the judge to throw the video out, arguing the video is wholly inaccurate, having been altered, manipulated, sped up, and edited to be out of sequence.
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All claims that CNN has denied. And on Friday, the federal judge overseeing the case ruled that the video can be shown in court.
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And there have been some other big rulings recently which have gone against the defense.
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Yeah, so the judge agreed to grant anonymity to alleged victims, two, three, and four in the indictment.
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And he also refused to grant a delay in the trial, which the defense had asked for.
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But there was a partial victory for Combs' attorneys. They had asked the judge to throw out the testimony of a prosecution witness by the name of Dawn Hughes.
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She's a clinical and forensic psychologist with expertise in sexual abuse. And Alex, the judge didn't throw out her testimony completely, but he did limit it, right?
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Yeah, so she will be allowed to testify about why sexual assault victims might delay disclosing their abuse and stay in relationships that are abusive.
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But she won't be able to testify about coercive control or how perpetrators act to control their victims.
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And Alex Combs has, of course, pleaded not guilty to the five charges against him.
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And at this latest hearing, the prosecutor revealed the government offered him a plea deal.
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We don't know any details of the deal that was offered, but we know that Combs rejected it.
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Okay. The trial is coming up very soon. Jury selection starts on Monday, May 5th,
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and we will be paying very close attention. For our next story, we are off to Idaho for
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an update on the case of Brian Kohlberger, the man accused of fatally stabbing four
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University of Idaho students in 2022. Alex, what's new there? So the big news is that the judges finally weighed in on whether Brian Kohlberger could
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face the death penalty if convicted at his trial this summer. And it looks like the answer is yes.
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Earlier this week, the judge denied a defense motion to take the death penalty off the table
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because of a legal technicality. And this was after he ruled last week against another defense
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motion, which said that Kohlberger shouldn't face the death penalty because of his diagnosis of
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autism spectrum disorder or ASD. In that ruling, the judge pointed out that no court has ever found
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ASD to be death disqualifying diagnosis. Thanks for that update. For our final story,
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there is news in a case that Alex, you've previously talked about on the podcast.
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Yeah. So this is the case of Anna Knezhevich, the Colombian American woman from South Florida who
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disappeared in Madrid in early 2024. According to prosecutors, she had moved to Spain to start
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a new life after separating from her husband, businessman David Knezhevich, and he was arrested
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for her murder last year. Anna's body has never been found and David denied any involvement in her
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death. Remind us how David was allegedly tied to this case. Sure. So federal investigators said
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David kidnapped Anna from her apartment and killed her. There's security camera video of a masked man
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entering Anna's building around the time of her disappearance and spray painting the security
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cameras in the lobby of the apartment building. Authorities say that the man looked a lot like
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David and also that David was seen on camera at a nearby hardware store buying that exact brand of
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black spray paint. So David's arrest was almost a year ago. What is the latest now? So in some
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pretty shocking news, David Kenezevich was found dead on Monday morning at the federal detention
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center in Miami, where he was awaiting trial that was supposed to start in June. His defense attorney
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confirmed that he died by suicide and asked for a thorough investigation. My goodness. How has Anna's family responded to this news?
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Yeah, so I spoke to Santa, her best friend. She's definitely shocked and still processing
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the whole thing. She was getting ready for trial. She was planning on being there.
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Her family has also released a statement that said, the suicide of Anna's murderer closes a painful chapter in our lives,
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previously filled with the dread that he might not face justice. Now we may never know where he put
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Anna's body. Alex, thank you for that and for all these updates. We appreciate it. Thank you, Andrea.
00:23:13
Courthouse security has come up a lot on the podcast recently. Think about the buffer zone
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set up around the courthouse for Karen Reed's latest trial or the stun belt Lori Vallow Daybell
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wore under her clothes at her Arizona trial. But tensions run high in all kinds of courtrooms.
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In Wisconsin earlier this month, a convicted killer was tackled to the ground by bailiffs
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after she lunged at her attorney. In California last year, a defendant stabbed his own attorney with a pen.
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And who can forget the judge in Las Vegas that was attacked by a defendant? Redden flew through the air, tackling her,
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sparking this bloody brawl that sent one court-martial to the hospital. Our next guest, Sheriff James Brown,
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is the chair of the National Sheriff's Association Court Services Committee. It's his job to help law enforcement come up
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the best practices for security. Hi, Sheriff Brown. Good afternoon. So I'm sure you've seen all those examples we just gave. Very dramatic.
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Yes. The Vegas judge, I mean, that one was crazy, where he just lunges at her and then the flagpole falls
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down. And oh, that was scary. Yeah. One of the things that is very important with courthouse security is placement of the
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deputies, that when a defendant or someone is sitting beside their attorney, you're going to
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have to react to whatever they do. Yeah, I actually covered a trial where a bailiff stepped on the defendant's foot and he went crazy.
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So, I mean, it's just you never know what is going to happen in a courtroom. Sheriff, who is responsible for keeping courthouses and courtrooms safe?
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So those are the sheriff's offices, but each state is different. It's really one of the things that the sheriff's offices are known for is providing courthouse security.
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So what is everyone titled in a courtroom? Is it bailiff? Well, it depends. Mostly they're known as bailiffs. They're still deputies. And the bailiffs
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will have different responsibilities. They have to keep the judge safe, the attorney safe, the
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person charged safe, victims, witnesses. We don't really think as much about keeping
00:25:13
the defendant safe but absolutely the defendant could be a target from an angry family member Yes So one of the things we do in those situations is we provide a security buffer where it a little more difficult for someone to get to that defendant And you just you kind of
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hear different things that are being said out in the community. So you have an idea of, you know,
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someone saying they're waiting to get to court because they're going to do something.
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So you just have to have a lot of plans and flexibility to be able to address any threat that comes up.
00:25:49
Yeah, because it's really the whole picture, right? It's not just what's happening in that courtroom.
00:25:53
Right. But one of the things that we run into of jury trials is you don't want to have what some people would consider an overbearing presence of deputies.
00:26:02
Because if you're a jury, you're sitting there saying, oh, yeah, something is really going on here.
00:26:07
One of the things that we do just to prevent that, if we have, you know, high-risk, high-profile cases, we'll actually have some people in plain clothes.
00:26:16
No way. That'll sit in there. And so if something happens, you know, they can quickly just show their ID and help the bailiffs in uniform.
00:26:24
Oh, my gosh. I did not know this. They're like the air marshals of court. Yeah. What about outside of the courthouse?
00:26:31
You know this is where we saw Karen Reed so many supporters and also people you know who aren happy with her either That that had to have a real plan because I been to that courthouse and it is it tiny and there not a lot of room out in the front of the courthouse and the road is right there I mean that can be a real problem
00:26:50
When we've had high profile cases, we've been able to have temporary barricades, a place that would help prevent vehicles from getting to people.
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But the main thing is people have the right to be out there and protest the case one side or the other.
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So as long as people can still get in and out, we also work with other agencies.
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You'll reach out to a neighboring agency or the state police and they'll assist.
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Yeah. And some people coming out of court may not want to talk to the media or be harassed by people.
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Yeah, there have been times we've had to actually walk with people to their vehicles.
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Well, Sheriff Brown, we thank you so much for all you do to keep people safe. Very, very important work. Thank you for coming on the podcast. We appreciate it.
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You're welcome. Thanks for having me. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly.
00:27:41
But one more thing before we go. Monday is the National Day of Awareness for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.
00:27:48
According to the National Institute of Justice, four out of five American Indian and Alaska Native women have experienced violence in their lifetimes.
00:27:56
I've covered several cases of young women who have gone missing from their communities or been murdered including 15 year old Nevaeh King Bird who disappeared into the snow in Bemidji Minnesota in 2021 We included a link to my report about Nevaeh from our Missing in America series in the description of this episode
00:28:14
Take a listen to that and maybe one of you knows something about her case. Next week on Dateline True Crime Weekly, we've got a special episode for you
00:28:22
with everything you need to know ahead of Sean Combs' trial on sex trafficking and racketeering charges.
00:28:28
And coming up this Friday on Dateline, don't miss Blaine's all-new two-hour episode.
00:28:33
After a popular college student was found stabbed to death in her bedroom, fear gripped a North Dakota town.
00:28:39
Rumors did, too. But her family and friends vowed to find the truth. It was scary.
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I mean, because at that time, anybody and everybody is a suspect to me. Watch Murder in Minot at 9, 8 central.
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Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson.
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Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff.
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Production and fact-checking help by Kim Flores-Gayner. Veronica Mazzica is our digital producer.
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Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
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Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline.
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Bye, everybody. Thank you.