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Hey everyone, I'm Andrea Canning here with a bonus episode for Dateline followers.
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We're diving into a chilling new drama series now available on Peacock, the streaming channel,
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which is owned by our parent company, NBCUniversal. Our colleagues at NBC News Studios
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are producers on the project. It's called Devil in Disguise, John Wayne Gacy. Hey guys, set the record straight.
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I killed so many. Gacy was one of America's most prolific serial killers. In the 1970s, he kidnapped and murdered at least 33 young men and buried most of them in the crawlspace beneath his house.
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But here's what's different about this new show from other documentaries and films you might have seen on the murders.
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Gacy isn't the main focus. Devil in Disguise is a show about Gacy's victims, who the young men were before they met Gacy,
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their family's heartbreak and trauma after their murders, and the systemic failures and societal prejudices that allowed Gacy's crimes to go unnoticed for so long.
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Recently, I sat down with the showrunner Patrick McManus. He was also an executive producer, director, and writer on the series.
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We were joined by two of the stars of the series, Michael Chernus, who plays Gacy,
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and Gabriel Luna, who plays the detective who helped crack the case. What followed was a conversation about honoring victim stories,
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crafting respectful narratives in true crime, and acknowledging the everyday heroes who solve those crimes.
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Well, thank you all for being here. Yeah, thanks for having us. So, Patrick, let me start with you.
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Why did you decide to do this show and shape it the way that you did? Yeah, I mean, the story that I keep telling everyone is just the true story, which is that I turned it down twice.
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Really? Yeah, I did not want to do it. And Universal Content and Peacock, they came to me a third time and they had said, will you just take a look at the documentary?
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And I said, okay. And I watched the documentary that is on Peacock. It's brilliant.
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The documentary is really, really amazing. But I didn't come away from watching the documentary wanting to do it.
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Because at the end of the day, the documentary is very, very focused on John Wayne Gacy.
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And so I said to them, I said, look, if you will let me do it my way. And I didn't mean it in an obnoxious way.
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I just meant that I want to focus it on the police. I want to focus it on the lawyers.
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I want to focus on the victims' families. And at the time, I said, and I would like to focus it on the victims.
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And to their credit, they said yes. And from that day, they have held true to that.
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As someone who, for Dateline, I sit across all the time from victims' families. That's what we do.
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And the one thing that I felt like, just quickly watching it, right away, I could feel how much you captured the victims' families.
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Like the mom, and she has that conversation with her daughter about Christmas, and there's no food in the house.
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I'm going to head out. Why? No. Just for a little bit, there's no food in the house.
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That's not true. Are we still having people over for Christmas dinner? We should, right?
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But like, that's what those families go through where like, what is the point of celebrating Christmas?
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You know, we don't know where our son is or, you know, whatever has happened to your loved one.
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And I feel like that was something that was captured really, really well. Thank you.
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Our team of writers were extraordinary. They understood the job was, it's not about John Wayne Gacy.
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It's about like the wake of wreckage that John Wayne Gacy left behind him. And that's murder, right?
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The ripple effect. Correct. Yeah. At the beginning of our show, you already know that John Wayne Gacy murdered these 33 people.
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It's interesting because there's no mystery. There's no whodunit. Yeah, there's no whodunit.
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There's no whodunit. And I keep saying it's more of a who were they. And we are on the same trajectory.
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The goals set forth by these detectives at that time, in that time period, the responsibility they felt that they held towards these families trying to put faces and names and voices to the deceased only continues now with what the writers, our writers did in that room.
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and piecing together these really beautiful short stories and vignettes of the experience of these very young men,
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young men and boys who had all the potential in the world and had it snuffed out.
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What can I do for you? I don't know too much about construction, but I'm a real fast learner.
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No time like the now or never. why did you decide to play gacy such a big role and you played him so well and he's he's sometimes
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he's creepy sometimes he's like the guy next door sometimes he's funny it's there's there's so many
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faces to him there are and that was in my opinion very true of the actual man and so i knew that
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the role would be a real challenge in that regard but i had this great initial meeting with patrick
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He told me that there would be no murders on camera, that we were focusing on the victims, that there would be these short stories in every episode.
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Then he said to me, like, I hope you're OK with you're not going to be in it all the time.
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And I was like, thank God, that's such a relief, because like to have to embody John Gacy all the time just felt like maybe something I didn't want to take on just for like personal mental health reasons.
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You know, you've been told that you look like him. And is that here and there people would say that And you know it not the highest compliment But yeah people would say well you look like that killer clown
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You should see if someone would write a show or a film for you. And so it was always kind of in the back of my mind.
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Yeah. And Gabriel, you get to play the lead detective, which was such an important role in real life for this story.
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Yes, yes. I was privileged to play Detective Raphael Tovar, the lead investigator on the case.
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We got to talk. Kid's missing. Reported last scene with you. Yeah. I don't know who that is.
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What did you take away as your most interesting moment of shooting or the most interesting part of your character?
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There was a lot that I, you know, there's been doing this a long time. and you're always excited when you feel that that you grew it's just something and you grew and i
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and i i think for me personally i had played a lot of invulnerable characters i mean maybe
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physically invulnerable and that they were you know robotic killing machines or or superheroes
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with flaming skulls or just these heroes that seemed to be, you knew they were heroes by looking
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at them. And what I loved about this part was just the mundanity of his heroism. And I thought
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that was pretty special. And you really captured the weight that the detectives carry with these
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cases. And there's just some phenomenal detectives across this country that will
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not stop until you know their person is behind bars and i can feel that well yeah but that's that's
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it's an interesting aspect of the show because so much of the show is also about the systemic failure
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of chicago pd to actually have stopped him had multiple opportunities to stop him and and didn't
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as teenage male employees start disappearing and nobody in your department looks into the guy
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But on the flip side of that coin are a group of detectives who were in that pit every single day who had their lives upended.
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I mean, I think they would never say it's PTSD, but I think that we could look back and say that they came out of that experience with PTSD.
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And they were dedicated to ensuring that every last victim was found. And where we got really the inspiration for Tovar's entire journey through the season was from a statement that he made where he said to this day, he's still haunted by the idea that he didn't find everyone.
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We never wanted to make it feel like the police are the quote unquote bad guys. That is not it.
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It was the system failed and then the system very much stepped to the plate to attempt to figure out how to bring every young boy home.
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And there's so many cases that have that same trajectory. Absolutely. Yeah. Gacy's final victim, Rob Peast, fell under the jurisdiction of a suburban police department.
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And so in that way, it was one of Gacy's many mistakes at the end where he abducted this boy from Des Plaines.
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And that police department had the energy and the time to focus on this case. Yeah.
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And that's played. So his mother is played by Marin Ireland. You actually open with this mother the whole series to set the tone for what you were going for.
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She truly set the tone. Yeah. She set the tone at the table read and just gave this incredible speech to the detectives and was already there.
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I mean, we could have rolled cameras on that first day. I will just take it one step back and say that she did it in the audition.
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I'm sure she did. I mean, I, I mean this with the utmost of respect to these fine gentlemen, um, and every other actor
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I've ever worked with, but I've never picked up a phone and called the head of casting. Uh, I
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picked up the head of, talked to the head of casting at universal and Peacock. And I said,
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I don't want to even have a conversation about this. And I didn't say it in a mean way. I said,
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just watch the tape and then just say yes. And it was about 12 minutes later. Yeah. And everything's
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so deliberate like you have scenes where the detectives are talking but you're just looking at
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i know mom right and that's like on purpose because that's the message of the show it was
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on the page like i i wrote it that way very specifically but the truth of the matter is is
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that originally in the first cut we never left her it was it was a slow push in for the entire
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scene we never turned around my wife is upset as you can imagine he's got a job so what's he meeting with this guy for
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he's getting his license this year saving up for a car alright alright well listen we have a file
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but they usually show up kids you know I think why we are all fascinated by these true crime stories
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I think what's the linchpin of all that is is how personal it all is yeah and he's he's describing in cinematic vocabulary how just how
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personal we got with elizabeth peace with marin pushing in on her face but when you listen to your
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podcast or your show or or any other true crime uh stories i think that that is what brings people
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in and draws them in and and when we watch this we see the human capacity for deviance and crime and murder and also the failures of just people human people who are doing their best or in some cases are
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In some cases are neglecting their human capability for neglect. You know, it's all just extremely personal.
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And I think that that is really what people's fascination kind of stems from. Yeah, our Dennis Murphy at Dateline always says it's the marriage, not the murder, even though the murder is, of course, very important.
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But it's the relationships, right? There's a title for your next show. But to be frank, I may put that up on the writer's room board in the future because that's a very succinct, beautiful way of putting what the point of these shows should be.
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Yeah. Yeah, well, because so often it's not some boogeyman type character. And I think that relates especially to this story is the fascination that it could be your next door neighbor or it could be someone hiding in plain sight.
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And just how sometimes how pedestrian and normal some of these killers are. Some. Yeah, it's like more like 90 percent of them, you know, are.
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yeah it's very rare you get like a charlie manson or a night stalker who just kind of looks like a
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killer you know like uh like run right yeah but yeah sometimes it's just like the jolly
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chubby polish neighbor next door who's like offers to shovel your driveway for you you know
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shook hands with the first lady yeah yeah and by the way you nailed the accent oh thanks that that
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that means a lot i grew up in cleveland ohio which that's not exactly the same as a chicago
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accent but just i know that sort of like cadence and rhythm and uh melody of of of the kind of
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folksy midwestern uh and you know sometimes it's you know there are some scenes where it's very
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present and some scenes where it's not and that was very much on purpose because like i feel like
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our version of gacy it's when we were playing with is like leaning into that kind of
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oh shucks folksy kind of you know i'm so harmless you know that was good yeah that was really good
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i would like to cooperate with you boys help out any way that i can no you were asking earlier like
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what's something that um we took away about our character or what you know um i feel like there
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was some amount of like i had to find some kind of i certainly don't have empathy or sympathy for
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the man and i feel like there's this thing amongst actors where it's like no matter who you play
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you have to find a way in to like love your character to understand your character and
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care about you're playing the worst person who ever lived you have to like and this was the first and i always believed that like in drama school and and now i feel like that's
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bs like i maybe i i taught like he was a human being that's a fact he like lived and
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was flesh and bone. And so how do you make that final leap? And I don't know. Some of it was just
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the imagination and creativity of an actor. And I think if we're talking about what draws people
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to true crime, sometimes I think it's that. These things that just don't make sense,
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these senseless stories, these murders. And we're trying to make sense out of it. We want there to
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be a hero who solved it. We want there to be a reason why he did it, a motive. Yes, there was insurance money or they wanted custody of the child or jealousy.
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Completely, yeah. And for me, it's like sometimes you just get to a point where there isn't an
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actual explanation. And sometimes there's just not. And we do have datelines where at the end, it's like you ask,
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why did they do this? And they're like, I don't know. You don't always get it wrapped up in a bow
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where you have all the answers and even if it's wrong, you know why. You know, you don't get that
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every time. You definitely don't. Yeah. And the other thing that you didn't, you know, go hard on
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was the clown theme. Like we saw elements of the clown. We saw the, you were sitting at the table
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looking at the evidence with the clown costume and we see the clown paintings, but it's not like
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you're going hard every second on clown, clown, clown, which is what Gacy is known for.
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No, yeah. And if, I don't know if we can have a spoiler, but you never see the full clown.
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Like you never see me fully full face on camera as the clown. And that was very, very intentional.
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I think it was one of the things I first asked you in our first meeting was like, how much of the clown are you going to show?
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Because I was not interested in that part of the story. And it's part of the story I feel like that got overdone in the 70s because it sold newspapers and, you know, the killer clown.
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And it was something unique and obviously super creepy. But it was it actually is a it was a small part of who he was.
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You know, you didn't need it, though. Like, you were still creepy and scary and all of it. You don't have to be in a clown costume to freak people out.
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Yeah, but I agree. I mean, I think that the clown is the least creepy thing about John Gacy. And if anything, I think it has done a lot of harm because it has sort of softened his image or kind of humanized him. Because even though we clowns are scary, it is also sort of child. There's a childlike kind of like innocence to it.
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And I think it helped with his sort of cult personality and how parts of the heavy metal scene embraced him.
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And I think it was one of the many things we were hoping to do with this is kind of rewrite the story on him and be like, this guy's not cool.
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There's nothing interesting about him. Like there was nothing redeeming about this man When you researched the victims and their families what really stood out to you the most before you started all this how young they all were just his youngest 13 yeah yeah well wait
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14 i think he was yeah the youngest was yeah just had just turned just yeah ready rough it yeah yeah
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yeah i mean just to just to piggyback on that and it's a story that i that i've been telling
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quite a bit is that I have a very strange ability to compartmentalize and not get affected by the
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stuff that I'm writing or the things that we're filming or join the club there you go well yeah
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I think you sort of have to right I hear you yeah but I had um I I was flying back and forth between
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Toronto and LA uh every weekend to be with my I have two sons and and my wife and this one Sunday
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was after this particularly simple but also very powerful Friday night of shooting that I was having
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a football catch with my eldest son, who's 13 at the time, he's 14 now. And it just, for the first
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time in 18 months of working on this project, it was the very first time where it hit me. And that
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I'm having a catch with my son, who was the same age as the youngest victim. And I had to excuse
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myself and go inside into the bathroom and it was the first time that i actually lost it like i
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really lost it and and so i i agree wholeheartedly that it's that it that is one of the primary
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things that affects you i think the other one is just is a little bit about how and we specifically
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chose the stories that we chose in order to shine a light on sort of a different pocket of the system
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failing and the and the prejudices within the system that that allowed gacy to get away with
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what he got away with so you know we have a story that is about a coming out story of a story that
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is a straight love story we have a story that is a sex worker story we have a story that's a grooming
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story right and again we only could tell six right out of the 33 but each of them represented this
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just utter failing of of of the world to to take care of these young boys and and and again saying
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it i'll just keep saying it over and over again that they had so many opportunities to stop the
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number at two, to stop the number at eight, to stop the number at 14, right? And they just failed
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at every turn. Yeah, that's such a good point. There was such, at the time in the 70s, there was
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such a judgment on the victims and it was labeled like this, they were deviants or runaways or,
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you know, that there was some kind of a judgment on these boys that allowed people to sort of
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distance themselves from the humanity. This is like a lot like another story I'm covering,
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the Gilgo Beach murders, where, you know, a lot of sex workers were involved and, you know,
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just fell through the cracks. And were dehumanized because they were sex workers. So, yeah.
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Yeah. And if it was, I always say this, like if it was the soccer mom in Westchester County,
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New York, that, you know, if they were bringing down soccer moms, it'd be 24-7 coverage, right?
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Yeah. And that was one of the many things, you know, his last victim, Rob Peast, at the time,
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And the paper said, well, this was a good boy from a good home. And all of a sudden, everybody was interested.
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But what Patrick was saying was that one of the things that struck me, too, is like his victims were from all kinds of backgrounds.
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Like predominantly, they were from sort of lower class, blue collar homes from a lot from a similar neighborhood in Chicago.
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Some were sex workers, but some were not. And some were straight and some were gay and some were figuring out who they were.
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But like I think all of his victims were sort of there was sort of this universal stamp put on them at the time.
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and society just sort of like dehumanized. Yeah, we can't do that. Gabriel, I was curious.
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So I know I realized this was such a long time ago. What happened to the detective you played?
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And also, I don't even know, to be honest with you, what happened to Gacy? So if you could just, I'm just curious.
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There was a, because of the approach we were taking, it being a fictionalized dramatization of this story,
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It was important to us not to draw specifically from the real men and women who were involved in this case.
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But after we wrapped, I kind of went in and did my own kind of reconnaissance and found out where our hero was.
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And he returned back to Texas. He is living down there with his wife. I think he's going to be pleased with your performance.
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Absolutely. You're fantastic. OK. I mean, John Gacy was executed in 1994 by lethal injection. It was, I think, the only the second lethal injection in the state of Illinois. They just changed over to lethal injection. Yeah. So he he he was executed.
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Yeah, that's a scene in the show where the lawyer is saying, you know, shut up. It's, you know, lethal injection is here now. The death penalty. You know, what are you stop running your mouth off?
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Yeah. And it was a big deal at the time. There were protesters on sort of both sides. There were people who were anti-death penalty protesting outside and then, you know, people who are very pro kill the clown. And so it was a whole media circus, like so many things around this case at the time.
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You know, there are still unidentified victims. And one great hope of mine is that maybe through telling the story and just like shedding a different kind of light on it, that maybe we aid in putting a name to one or two or three of those boys that still are unknown of their identities.
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That would be amazing if something like that could come out of this. Absolutely.
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Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it has been a pleasure talking to all of you and congratulations on this. Really just, I can't say enough good things.
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Thank you. Thank you so, so much for taking the time. Thanks.