00:00:00
When I sat down with her in prison, you know, I told her, I said, Patrick, we just talked to him and he says you're his ride or die.
00:00:08
And she's like, oh, my baby. And I was like, oh, cringe. Okay, I'm not the only one.
00:00:19
Hi, everyone. I'm Lester Holt and we are talking Dateline. Today I'm here with Andrea Canning to talk about her episode, Secrets in the Ashes.
00:00:27
If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here to listen to our discussion.
00:00:37
So to recap, after a suspicious home fire in Texas leaves a mother dead, her husband, Delbert Mills, is eventually convicted of her murder.
00:00:47
Investigators are left wondering if Delbert's new wife, someone called Allison Salinas, was also involved, but she's never charged.
00:00:55
Allison moves to Illinois and starts over, essentially. She opens a bakery, some other businesses, money-making schemes, if you will.
00:01:04
But after she tries to get an ex-boyfriend to murder the new man in her life, she is arrested and ends up in prison.
00:01:11
In this episode, we'll have a podcast-exclusive clip of Andrea's prison interview with Delbert Mills,
00:01:17
what he says his biggest regret is, so stick around for that. And later, we're going to answer some of your questions on social media.
00:01:24
For now, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Andrea, this is quite a story. Thanks for being here to talk about it.
00:01:30
Yeah, good to be here with you, Lester. Yeah, I think it's safe to say these are two very dangerous people.
00:01:37
Whose story did you hear about first? Was it Delbert's conviction for the fire or Allison's murder-for-hire scheme?
00:01:43
We actually got on the story because of Allison's murder-for-hire scheme in Illinois
00:01:49
and then learned about this situation in Texas that happened years earlier where she ends up marrying this killer, this man who killed his wife, Patricia Lee.
00:02:02
So it's the more current story that got Dateline's attention, but then we realized there was a lot
00:02:07
more to it. Different time, different location, but Allison was at the center of both. Again,
00:02:16
not charged with anything in Texas. So this story really starts at the crime scene,
00:02:21
The fire, this home burning in Goliad, Texas, it's hard to imagine a little six-year-old boy, but John Michael, the child in the house, essentially watches his home go up in flames, then hearing his mother died in the fire.
00:02:36
Yeah, I mean, you know, as I said in the show, I have a six-year-old son. He's six and a half. And, you know, I was trying to put myself in his mind, you know, if something like that happened to him, you know, would he be equipped for that? Would he know what to do, you know, to get out of the house, of course, and also in the days that followed and how difficult that is for a young boy to deal with?
00:03:00
But, you know, John Michael, I mean, to to be in essentially a death trap, there's the doors are blocked.
00:03:10
There's padlocks. He's six, you know, to be able to to get out of his window with his toy box, you know, throwing it at the window and getting out.
00:03:18
I mean, that was like really amazing on his part. I can't even imagine you in that situation, hearing that about your mom and also having just gone through a fire.
00:03:28
Yeah, I mean, my thing is, at six, you don't even really know what death is. No.
00:03:35
And being told somebody's dead is like, what does that mean? You just know your mom's never coming home.
00:03:42
And you just know that she's gone. And you don't know why. You don't know how. I'm so sorry.
00:03:50
Yeah, and there is obviously an investigation into this fire, its origins. and ultimately investigators kind of move on.
00:04:00
Say, you know, we recommend this case is closed. Is it clear why they moved on? You know, I did really press the investigator
00:04:08
and he essentially admits, you know, I was leaving the department, you know, I had a lot of other cases, I didn't have time.
00:04:17
He basically admits it fell through the cracks, which is kind of sad. You're dealing with a potential murder, right?
00:04:24
Because they didn't know at that time yet because it hadn't been properly investigated.
00:04:28
But, you know, I certainly have to wonder if, you know, if this was a different family, if this family had a lot of money, if this happened in a mansion, you know, would it have been handled differently?
00:04:40
I mean, this was a tiny little house. These people had no money. You heard it. They were using the father wouldn't let them use electricity, you know, to save money.
00:04:51
They had to use these like kerosene lanterns. I mean, so I do wonder, you know, if you if you had more power, more money, would it have been investigated differently from the start and would it have not fallen through the cracks?
00:05:02
Yeah. And as so many of these stories we cover, Andrea, it's the family that ultimately keeps the case out there that continues to demand for justice.
00:05:13
Yeah, this was no exception, Lester. Sharon, Patricia Lee's sister, the victim's sister, she just hounded the Goliad Sheriff's Department.
00:05:23
She just was constantly over there bugging them, telling them to keep going. Have you looked at this person?
00:05:30
She's doing like essentially like her own interviews with people. I mean, you know, Sharon's the sister we all want.
00:05:37
The sister who clearly loved her sister with everything she had and was not going to let this go.
00:05:44
And it paid off because, you know, just rattling those cages. I mean eventually it paid off because the new sheriff said you know what let dive into this Thankfully Can things begin to happen Yeah So the sheriff got this former investigator on board to come and take another look It really cracked things wide open So
00:06:07
of course, Delbert is arrested and charged and ultimately convicted of Patricia Lee's murder.
00:06:14
Okay. Let's talk a little bit about Allison Salinas. Among other things, she was a wannabe
00:06:20
senator. This was part of her kind of new life as she was moving on. What do we know about that?
00:06:25
I think what we know about this is that I don't think we can take her Senate run all that seriously.
00:06:33
I mean, she did say she was running for U.S. Senate, but from what I understand,
00:06:37
she didn't really show up to a lot of things or really do much. I think it sounded good in theory,
00:06:43
but I don't know that her money was where her mouth was. Yeah, and she tried other things in this new life. She was raising money, charitable dollars. She was organizing events. Things just didn't seem to be working out. And as I'm watching this part of the story, I'm thinking, okay, is she just a flake? I mean, there are people who are not good at business and not good with money. Or was she a fraudster?
00:07:07
I think the people there's a lot of people who would say fraudster. I don't think I once heard the term flake or, you know, that she just doesn't follow through. I think the people that we spoke to and a lot of the complaints online all point directly to fraud.
00:07:25
You know, Allison has had some charges in her past relating to fraud, but there's a lot of things that she has had no consequences for that people are accusing her of things and nothing, nothing ever happened.
00:07:41
OK, when we get back, we've got a podcast exclusive clip of Andrea asking Delbert Mills about his biggest regret.
00:07:55
So this story takes yet another twist when Allison reaches out to her former high school boyfriend who she hasn't talked to in about 30 years.
00:08:03
Yeah, James was like really, you know, James was very surprised to hear from her.
00:08:08
I mean, imagine if your high school girlfriend calls you up out of the blue and wants to just start talking and then starts telling you all of her innermost secrets and, you know, the state of her marriage and her cancer and all the rest of it.
00:08:22
And then she gets into killing her husband. So you can only imagine what would be going through your mind if someone from your past randomly contacted you.
00:08:32
Yeah. And then, you know, James, at one point, he goes to the authorities, but that goes nowhere.
00:08:37
He gets frustrated and doesn't really put this down, but kind of takes off on his own direction.
00:08:43
Yeah. I mean, it's so strange. He's contacting the police about something very serious and it's on body cam.
00:08:49
And the police officer is like, just don't call her back. Well, if you don't want to cause any issues by blocking her, then just don't respond to her.
00:08:55
What? Like, no, that's not that's not how this should have been handled, in my opinion.
00:09:02
The Pekin Police Department, they declined to speak with us. But I think every murder for hire plot should be at least looked at, at least investigated.
00:09:13
That did not happen here until Kate and James forced their hand, you know, when they went public with this on social media.
00:09:21
And then the police took it seriously. Yeah, they were very anxious to suddenly talk to him and see what he is.
00:09:28
Yeah, thankfully nothing happened to Patrick, you know, in that time period because you never know.
00:09:34
Allison, you know, she asked James to help her find an assassin or, you know, a killer.
00:09:39
What if she had gone to someone else? What if James wasn't getting the job done?
00:09:43
So she went and found another person that James didn't know about. I mean, you have to take someone like that seriously because you don't know.
00:09:52
and a man's life could be in danger. These calls that he had with Allison, where, as you said, she's discussing,
00:09:59
you know, a murder for hire plot. And I think, you know, our viewers will look at that section
00:10:04
and kind of wonder, okay, was she serious? I think you could argue it sounded certainly serious.
00:10:10
I think it sounded very serious. Something's got to happen to him because that's my only way on.
00:10:17
It's not about the fact that he's allergic to selfish, but even that's too iffy.
00:10:22
because it takes a while for it to react so he would have time to get help and if there's anything
00:10:29
involved a gunshot there would have to be a silence so there's no sound and the shot would
00:10:34
have to be just right um you know we're we're getting pretty detailed um in these calls you
00:10:41
know so uh i don't know yeah in these in these recordings there's there's some memorable lines
00:10:47
like you have, it's not like you have assassins on speed dial. Also hearing her laugh when she's
00:10:53
talking about murdering her husband. That's bizarre. I know, I know. And then not just that,
00:10:58
like the memorable moments in the interview as well, where, you know, she's, I throw out some
00:11:05
less significant things to her. Like, you know, the accusation was that you sold frozen baked
00:11:12
goods that you got from a supplier and that you weren't making your own baked goods in the baker
00:11:17
made killer brownies killer cookies made killer cupcakes it's interesting choice of words well
00:11:25
interesting way to describe it i mean i don't mean it like that i mean they were just very good
00:11:30
no no it's just given why we're here i mean they were very delicious then you know and it's like
00:11:35
you can just see the smile emerge on my like slowly the smile is happening on my face i don't
00:11:42
I don't think she got it. I think she eventually did. Like, I don't think she got it at first when I was smiling.
00:11:48
And then it was like, well, you know, I'm like, she's like, wait, wait. And then you see her get it eventually.
00:11:53
And then she like don basically don take it out of context And I like well given why we here you know interesting choice of words That was kind of a train wreck moment in an interview I feel like
00:12:06
You've done murder for hire stories before. How did this one stack up? This one was the weirdest one yet.
00:12:14
Because it's very rare that a wife decides she wants to kill her husband, and then the first person she calls from jail is her husband.
00:12:24
and then immediately her husband stands by her. It was just like upside down world.
00:12:32
Didn't make any sense. You know, like she wants you dead and you're okay with it.
00:12:36
You're okay with her. And then when I sat down with her in prison, you know, I told her, I said, Patrick, we just
00:12:42
talked to him and he says you're his ride or die. And she's like, oh, my baby. And I was like, oh, cringe.
00:12:50
Okay, I'm not the only one. Yeah, that was a moment. Yeah, I mean, come on. So did Allison know that James was a registered sex offender when she reached out to him?
00:13:03
You know, that's a really good question. I don't know if we ever asked them, Allison or her husband, when they learned of that.
00:13:13
So I don't know the answer to that. I just know that they were very aware and they brought it to our attention about James.
00:13:20
but I'm not sure when they found out. I would imagine a lot of people would kind of walk away from this situation.
00:13:26
As I look at where James found himself, there's a big twist. He really plays citizen detective, but he has his own dark past as a registered sex offender.
00:13:38
This is really a story about who you can trust or who you think you can trust. Yeah, and we needed to take that very seriously as well,
00:13:46
You know, because even though, yes, Allison has pled guilty to this, you know, they do have a good point, Allison and her husband, in saying, you know, pointing out James's flaws as well.
00:13:59
You know, is he to be trusted or can he manipulate people? So, you know, we did take that very seriously and we contacted James about that.
00:14:07
And so it was not something we took lightly when putting this story together, you know, that whole discussion surrounding that.
00:14:17
So Allison says that she was manipulated by James. So, you know, that's that's her side of the story.
00:14:24
And the other thing she really wanted to get across as well was that she felt like she didn't have the proper representation from her public defender.
00:14:34
She felt like she was sort of railroaded into taking this plea deal and that it just wasn't handled right.
00:14:42
Her problem now is that I believe she's not eligible for an appeal with the plea deal that she signed.
00:14:49
But she's still trying to find other avenues to get things resolved the way she wants.
00:14:56
You also sat down with Delbert. It's neat that you were able to sit down with the two key players in this.
00:15:02
What was he like? Oh, Delbert. He got me mad. He got me really mad. Yeah, I saw that.
00:15:07
I was going to ask you about that next. I mean, come on. You know, he's like, I'm protecting him all this time, and as long as he doesn't get in trouble.
00:15:12
And I'm like, I don't think he's going to get in trouble, Delbert. You're the one sitting in prison.
00:15:19
And he's saying, well, you know, I'll stay in here as long as he's safe. And I'm like, no one's going to believe you, so you don't need to worry about it.
00:15:29
Like, your son's fine, and also this is a real jerk move. as a father. And what you're referring to is when he comes out and says his son admitted that he set
00:15:39
the fire. And if I recall, you came back and said, well, you know, you're blaming your son. He goes,
00:15:45
I'm not blaming. It's just that's what he said. Just that's what he said. Well, okay. So first of
00:15:51
all, why wouldn't you tell authorities that in the beginning? Okay, his answer might be, well,
00:15:56
I was protecting him. Okay, what that's just, whatever, I don't believe him. But then he goes
00:16:02
on to tell all these witnesses that he killed his wife, and you know how he did it. And then he's
00:16:08
offering to kill someone else's husband. And, you know, so it's the whole thing to me was just
00:16:14
absurd. The only thing is, and our editor, Rich Platt brought this up, and this is a question that
00:16:20
I should have asked Allison, I know she would have denied it, but I still should have brought it up.
00:16:25
And maybe to the police as well as, you know, is it possible that Delbert really did go off to work, didn't set the fire, you know, before he left his little plan that they said he had with the oil and the candle?
00:16:38
Is it possible? This is just a question. She's not been charged with a crime. Is it possible that Allison is the one who just when he went off to work, set the fire?
00:16:48
You know, that that's a question. That should be posed. And her alibi was never checked out.
00:16:55
You know, she said, well, I wouldn't have had time. I went she went to some other city.
00:16:58
I wouldn't have had time to get to that city and back, you know, to have any involvement.
00:17:03
Well, no one chased down her alibi. Law enforcement told us that in our interviews that her alibi was never followed up on.
00:17:10
Well, you have some extra sound from that interview. You asked him what his biggest regret is.
00:17:15
So let's listen to that. What is your biggest regret in your life? My biggest regret in my life is not being there for my son like I should have been.
00:17:26
That's my biggest regret. Not killing your wife, his mother. Well, I didn't kill his mother, so I can't say that.
00:17:36
If I'd have done it, yeah, that would have been one of my biggest, that would have been my biggest regret.
00:17:41
But my biggest regret as of now is not being there for my son like I should have been.
00:17:47
And when he finds out what you've said about him, about starting the fire possibly?
00:17:54
If he wants to talk to me about it all he got to do is write me And I be more than happy to sit down and type him back or write him back and explain to him the best I can
00:18:05
I don't think he's going to really like hearing that. Well, probably not. And he, I was correct.
00:18:13
John Michael was very, very upset. Yeah, he takes the mic off and walks off the set.
00:18:20
But, you know, as you watch this story, your heart continues to go back to him. what he's been through, how it has really shaped other events in his life.
00:18:30
It has. I mean, you know, he told me he struggled with drugs and depression and all these different things as a result of what happened to him.
00:18:39
You know, and it's heartbreaking, right? He lost the, as he said, I lost the person who loved me the most, you know, his mom, his best friend.
00:18:47
And she just loved him so much and according to the family and wanted to be a mom so bad.
00:18:51
And, you know, Delbert took that away from him. And now Delbert's blaming him for the death of his mother, which is just despicable.
00:19:01
OK, after the break, we will be back to answer your questions from social media.
00:19:09
Welcome back, Andrea. Lots of social media questions about this episode. Up first, a question about the fire that killed Patricia Lee.
00:19:17
Here's Henry Simas on Facebook. And he says, why are the doors locked from the outside in the burning house?
00:19:24
They never addressed that in the trial of Delbert. What about that, Andrea? I mean, no one knows for sure, but there definitely was a theory that Delbert possibly did that himself.
00:19:35
So Patricia Lee would not be able to get out of the house. But that is not confirmed.
00:19:40
It's just a suspicion from the police. But, you know, maybe if a proper investigation had been done, we would know more about that.
00:19:46
Yeah, here's one from Sandy Castle at Sandy underscore Castle underscore RB, who writes, as usual, all he had to do was divorce her.
00:19:55
How many times have we heard that in relation to a Dateline story? It's not like he was offering her anything during their marriage.
00:20:02
It would have been an easy divorce, Sandy says. I agree, Sandy. Absolutely. This would have been a very easy divorce.
00:20:09
But, you know, the family, they believe that Delbert wanted money. He was able to get a new truck. Then he was able to marry Allison. I mean, I think there's just a ton of unknown elements to this case.
00:20:25
Okay. Also thinking about Allison and her new husband's relationship, what's the status of that relationship?
00:20:30
Um, so at last when we interviewed Patrick and Allison, um, they were fully still in love and
00:20:40
going to ride the storm. He was going to be waiting for her, uh, when she gets out,
00:20:45
both of them seemed committed to the relationship, um, as you saw in the show. Yeah. Andrea, there were so many comments about your prison interviews. Let's start with your
00:20:54
interview with Allison. This is from Tommy Foley, who writes, it always amazes me how you keep a
00:21:01
straight face interviewing some of these people. On a scale of one to Nicholas Rossi, how hard was
00:21:07
it to keep it together during the Allison interview? Killer cupcakes. Well, I mean,
00:21:13
you did see me crack a smile on that one. Killer cookies, killer brownies. That's a first for me.
00:21:18
But I would say most of that interview, I was more frustrated than anything else because I felt
00:21:24
like Allison was not being truthful with me. And I thought this question was fascinating from
00:21:29
Lauren Wright on Facebook. Lauren writes, Allison rolls her eyes every time she lies.
00:21:35
Sitting across from these criminals in your prison interviews, did anything about Allison
00:21:39
or Delbert's body language stand out to you? Sometimes I think the viewers probably can pick
00:21:47
up on it better than us when we're sitting there in the hot seat. Allison would get very testy
00:21:53
when I brought up certain things. Like if I brought up Kate, you know, who's kind of arguably
00:21:59
her arch nemesis in Illinois, she would start to get very upset and then, you know, kind of push
00:22:06
back on me. And I don't want to talk about that. She would try to shut me down. Yeah. And we had a
00:22:11
lot of questions about your interview with Delbert. Here's Jamie Olmsted on Facebook. Jamie writes,
00:22:17
I came away from this episode with the urge to let Andrea Kenning know how impactful it was to see a member of the media drop the pretense of impartiality and be human.
00:22:28
Standing up to it, injustice is rarer than it should be, and it gives me a surge of hope to see it.
00:22:34
I thank you for letting your humanity override the status quo. That's an interesting observation and I think a great comment about the line you had to walk in this.
00:22:44
Yeah, thank you, Jamie. Yeah, I mean, we do want to be impartial as much as we can, obviously, as journalists. But Delbert really got me mad. Yeah, because, you know, I'd already had the chance to interview John Michael, his son. And I knew how much pain John Michael was in. It just made me really angry when he said, I'm here to set the record straight that my son told me he set the fire. And I just thought, wow, you're just a piece of you know what at this point.
00:23:12
But it was interesting, though, when I asked him about Allison, if he knew if she had anything to do with it, he said, I don't know.
00:23:19
So which is it? It was strange. Well, this gets better. Here's one from Shauna Manley on Facebook.
00:23:27
Shauna writes, Andrea Canning is my hero. I have a newfound respect for her while she was interviewing the father, Gelberg.
00:23:34
I was just thinking, you go, lady. Let him have it. Oh, that's so nice. Pretty sure John's mom, Patricia, would be proud of the way she represented the moms by calling out his disgusting accusation.
00:23:47
Oh, that's really nice. We didn't air this in the show, but John Michael, they showed him like my side.
00:23:54
And John Michael looked at the video and he said, I love her. And so like for me, that just made me feel like I love her.
00:24:00
worth it. And I thought, you know what? It was for John Michael, you know, my response. Like,
00:24:04
it wasn't about me or anything else. It was about him. Yeah, these are people's lives. And you did
00:24:09
a really terrific job telling this story. So, Andrea, thank you so much. And thanks to all our
00:24:14
viewers and listeners for stopping by. Well, that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember,
00:24:22
if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach out to us 24-7
00:24:28
on social media at Dateline NBC. If you have a question for talking Dateline, leave it for us as a voicemail at 212-413-5252
00:24:39
or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.