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she kept saying three things i didn't mean to hurt my child i don't remember what happened i just got my period
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[Music] about 30 years ago something started happening in courtrooms that caught the
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world by surprise lawyers began to attribute criminal behavior to pms or premenstrual syndrome
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the first time was in england a woman named sandy smith was found guilty of murdering her co-worker but her lawyer
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argued she was suffering from pms and the judge gave her probation for murder then shortly after the pms defense was
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tried out in the u.s in a case that pit scientists against feminists against lawyers
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i'm phoebe judge this is criminal [Music] serious topic here folks she beat her kids and she blames her pms
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should pms be used as a legal defense we'll find out take a break stay with us shirley was on the bed
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passed out or in a state of semi-unconsciousness the child came in after specifically
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being told not to come in the room because shirley was sick and couldn't take care of her kids that they had to
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stay in the other room she came in and she jumped on her and she reacted in a reflective way
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she said that the daughter said to her mommy you hit me shirley santos was 24 years old in 1981
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a single mother with six kids in brooklyn this is her lawyer stephanie benson she herself
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called the police and not only did she call the police she didn't have a phone she had to go to a neighbor to whom she
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said look i just got my period and i think i might have hurt my child but if we're saying that pms at this point in
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the early 80s wasn't in the lexicon why did she know to attribute something to that she didn't say pms she never
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said pms this is what she knew happened to her at this time of the month and maybe it doesn't take a phd
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for a woman to know why she feels crappy a few hours later santos was arrested court documents show that her
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four-year-old child had bruises and welts her kids were taken away in 1981 lawyer stephanie benson was also
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24 years old working for legal aid she was assigned to shirley santos did you had you done any research or reading or
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anything on pms as a legal defense maybe as it related to the british cases beforehand or was this something just
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came to you out of the blue it came to me out of the blue this is benson on mcneil lair that year
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based on what she found benson felt she could correlate santos behavior with what doctors were learning about pms
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there were cases of women whose symptoms were so severe they felt capable of hurting themselves or others
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she filed a motion to dismiss the case outlining for the court all of the ways in which her client was quote a victim
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of pms today we're used to women saying i have pms we haven't exactly moved beyond
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stereotypes about women being crazy at that time of the month these jokes are everywhere even on
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pretty forward thinking shows like modern family god they're gonna run everything no no we we just need to be
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extra sensitive phil honey when do we need to leave whatever's good for you sweetie maybe 20 minutes
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[Applause] whenever you're ready but back in the 80s and 90s it really was new and hard
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to make sense of we are a responsible broadcast and we appreciate that point okay now let's get a man's point of view
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here your comment i just was wondering if you'd open up the door for you know is a high testosterone level uh excuse
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to rape somebody they have something called premenstrual syndrome what about post menstrual syndrome does that exist
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not only was it totally out of left field to assert that a woman's period could be debilitating but it had very
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problematic implications what would be the consequences if pms were admitted as a legitimate defense in court in your
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view it's much more significantly a sword to be used against women than a shield for them this is barbara newman
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one of the prosecuting attorneys in the santos case no woman could ever be trusted with any position of
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responsibility including having children having the care and custody of children
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this could justify assaults upon woman the man could say this woman was out of control i had to kill her and there's
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the woman dead on the floor not in a position to refute it the santos case may have been the first in the u.s but
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the other cases that got the public's attention made the diagnosis seem even more serious
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like sandy smith in england we mentioned earlier she was charged with murder after she stabbed her co-worker
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repeatedly or christine english who ran down her lover with her car and pinned him after the affair went south after
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the two violent cases in england and now santos it looked like pms as a defense was gathering steam i became interested
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because my branch chief at the time said i have met an endocrinologist and he claims that there are four women in his
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practice who attempted suicide during the ludial phase of their menstrual cycle this is dr david rubino chair of
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the department of psychiatry at the university of north carolina at chapel hill and founder of the women's mood
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disorder clinic there today he specializes in the most severe form of pms it has its own name
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premenstrual dysphoric disorder often just pmdd pms or pmdd is triggered by changes in reproductive hormones
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estrogen or progesterone but that triggering occurs only in a subgroup of women a group of women who
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are susceptible to hormone-induced mood changes and we don't understand exactly what causes that susceptibility
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but it is a biologically triggered syndrome and we can demonstrate that i can take someone who has
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pms pmdd and i can eliminate her syndrome by stopping her ovarian steroid secretion
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and pmdd will go away so this is kind of the evidence that this isn't just all in her
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head exactly well it's not really a diagnosis it's a social belief this is dr nada stotland she's a
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psychiatrist in chicago specializing in women's mental health and was president of the american psychiatric association
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from 2008 to 2009. if we really believe that are we going to screen every woman before she gets a responsible job
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what about all the flight controllers and the pilots and the surgeons do you think seven percent of female
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surgeons or five percent are disabled for several days a month i don't believe it
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and i do have an objection to having this diagnosis listed as a psychiatric diagnosis without any
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comparable investigation of the impact of male hormones on men why because women's hormones are used as
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an excuse to think that women are unstable obnoxious you know we talked about at one point you know do you want a
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woman to have the red telephone in the president's office that's a very dangerous and uh negative understanding
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of women and and a denigration of their legitimate problems [Music] back in the 80s in brooklyn the santos
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case got more and more complicated shirley santos totally undermined her own case when she told the tv reporter
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it's not like i'm gonna get my period so bad i start wailing on my child it was a
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mess it's still unclear whether she was pressured by the reporter or if she actually didn't believe her own defense
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the lawyers made a deal santos pled guilty to a reduced charge down from felony assault to a simple harassment
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violation not even a misdemeanor and she went home without her kids why don't you think this has been part
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of the legal discourse since then you have to have a very special mixture so you have a woman
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and women don't commit that many crimes a violent crime women don't commit that many violent crimes
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i personally do not believe that pms causes murder again dr david rubino head of unc's women's mood disorder clinic i
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do think that someone who has antecedent behavioral problems may experience further compromise of their
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ability to regulate their behavior when they become increasingly symptomatic during the premenstrual
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state but women with really severe pmdd do not kill people we talk to other scientists just ask
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them could it actually be this bad they said yes in some rare instances pmdd could manifest itself so severely that a
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woman would be taken out of her ordinary mental state and last year the american psychiatric
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association put pmdd in their big book of mental disorders the dsm-5 they classified it as a depressive
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disorder saying the move was based on strong scientific evidence so the science has evolved what remains
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to be seen is whether or not public opinion has two okay before we go i just want to get a uh
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give us a round of applause if you think that pms should be a valid legal defense
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do you believe it [Applause] well i guess that that's that who thinks it should not be a valid legal defense
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[Applause] [Music] criminal is produced by eric menno lauren spore and me special thanks to
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katie davis julian alexander does our episode art if you like what we're doing you can
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subscribe in itunes and if you like leave us a review we're on facebook and twitter at criminal show
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this program is part of the prx stem story project made possible by the alfred p sloan foundation i'm phoebe
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judge this is criminal