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This episode is about sex work and may not be suitable for everyone. Please use discretion.
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>> I pay more in taxes than the average person makes as a salary in the year. So, um
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I do I do well. >> This is a woman we're calling Jessica. That's not her real name.
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She's an independent escort based in New York City and she charges $1,000 an hour
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for her time with a 2-hour minimum. >> I would love to see like the the financial data. Like, how much is this
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industry actually generating? Um how much are we paying in taxes, you know? I I I pay taxes, but it does not
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say sex worker or escort on my on my tax return. >> How do you pay taxes? >> I file as a consultant. I have a CPA
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uh who knows what I do, which is great. Um makes it a lot easier to not have to justify certain expenses and things. Um
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he's also worked with other sex workers. That's how I got the recommendation. And actually, I want to pay taxes. I
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want to have clean money so I can I can do things with my money. You you can't, you know,
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cash is great if you want to go shopping, but you can't invest in your 401k or your brokerage account or buy a
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house with with cash. >> She's typically paid by an online transfer to her LLC. If it's a very large amount, clients
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wire the money. And when she does accept cash, she has specific instructions. Put it in an envelope. Don't hand it to
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her directly. Put it in a book or in a gift bag. >> I have had clients like, you know, we'll we'll meet
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at in the lounge of hotel or something and they'll very indiscreetly, you know, hand me an envelope or even just cash or
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something. And I that's you know, someone's that could be that to me is like, Okay, this feels like
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this could be a sting. if someone's watching that happen. That's like I'm incriminating myself. Um, so I'll just
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walk away from that. But it it doesn't happen too often, but >> Is there any price negotiation or are
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your prices set at this is what the hourly rate is, these are what my requirements are, like it or don't like
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it? >> The only negotiation for me is with multi-day uh, trips. Um, you know, if we're going
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somewhere great that I want to go to and, you know, if it's for a lot of days, I'm not going to charge the same day
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rate for everything. But for me, no, my my This is why I like being an escort, not
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a sugar baby or anything else. It's it it removes, I don't have any hustle. I I tried
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stripping for a little bit and it is I just I don't have that. It's much easier for me to have this website and those
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are my prices and take them or leave them. Um, the whole purpose is to you know, maximize income and minimize
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time. So, the work smarter, not harder sort of thing. But I have um, basically I have a monthly goal for
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myself and when I meet that goal, then I don't take on any more work. >> A book came out last year called
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Revolting Prostitutes, written by two sex workers, Molly Smith and Juno Mack. In the introduction they write,
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"Sex workers are everywhere. We're your neighbors. We brush past you on the street. Our kids go to the same schools
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as yours. We're behind you at the self-service checkout with baby food and a bottle of Pinot Grigio.
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Although we're everywhere, most people know little about the reality of our lives."
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I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. Jessica became curious about sex work when she was 20. She was in college and
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she and her roommate would watch a show on HBO called Cathouse, a reality TV show about one of the only
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legal brothels in the United States, the Bunny Ranch. We'll visit the Bunny Ranch later in the
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show. Jessica says she was fascinated by the whole thing. >> Um, yeah, so we I was living with my
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roommate we would watch these shows and then one day she went on Craigslist and went to the erotic services section back
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when that existed and she found the world of erotic massage which is essentially you get a hotel room and
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give them a massage and then usually some form of a happy ending. And she's like, I could do that. And I was like, I
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could do that. We felt safe because we were together and she eventually, you know, decided to stop doing it and I
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decided to sort of forge forward and ultimately I became an escort. >> But when your friend decided not to
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continue on with the work after a while but you did, what what did you like about it? What did you
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what intrigued you and what were you hoping to do next? >> I did like the sort of
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you know, adventurous component of it. It felt very like I was part of this underworld that you know, no one really
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knew about and that was exciting and thrilling. Um, I guess I didn't really have a plan. I
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was going to school. It was a great way to make I mean I could make a, you know, I
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could wait tables and make what I would make in a week in like an hour or two doing doing this erotic massage work. So
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that was obviously a huge incentive. >> Jessica's next step was to go back to Craigslist and begin researching escort
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agencies. She says she was curious. So she wrote to an agency and set up a phone call with the manager. It was a
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woman. Jessica said she felt comfortable so they arranged a meeting. >> And um, it was just more of an
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opportunity to for her to sort of look at me and she asked me, you know, do do you know what the work is
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um, without being explicit. And I said, yes. And she said, great, what name do you want to go by?
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And that was it. And then she uh, she had a well-established business, so she had a
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lot of clients and I only saw people that she had worked with before us. So, that was one of my rules at the time was
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no new clients cuz I felt safer knowing that they had seen other women in her agency. And uh, at that point it was she
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got I think about 25% and I kept the rest. Um, it varied a little bit, but my rate then was
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between 260 and 300 an hour, which I thought was fantastic. And yeah, it seemed it seems like a good thing. I did
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that for a pretty long time just because it was easy. >> Eventually, Jessica realized she could
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go out on her own and work independently. Leaving the escort agency meant that she'd have to do all of her own
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marketing. And she wouldn't have anyone to help her find or vet prospective clients.
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But it also meant she would get to keep all of the money. For the last 5 years, she's been working
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for herself. Tell me about the screening process and how important it is. >> It is very important for me. I will not
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meet someone unless they follow my protocol exactly. I'm lucky enough to be able to um,
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be a stickler about that, but the screening process in general is some combination of asking for
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references, which means who have you seen before? Um, so they'll give me, you know, I ask for
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two usually and they'll give me the names and websites of some women that they've met. At this point I've been in
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the industry long enough where I at least recognize a lot of people on a visual basis such seeing their name, but
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um, you know, if I don't, I go to their website, I suss out if the references seem legitimate, you know, do they have
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a presence, do they have a social media presence, are they on Twitter, are they interacting with other people, does it
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seem like people have met them? So, I sort of have to vet the reference. Um and then if they've seen personal
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friends of mine or people I know well enough in the industry, that's usually enough for me personally. Uh but
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sometimes they don't have a reference or just don't feel great about them. And so then I ask for their employment
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information. Um and that generally means I have them email me from their work account to an
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unpublished inbox of mine. Um so say it's you know, Goldman Sachs or something. So, then there's sort of like this paper
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trail and it's, you know, it's not associated with me directly, but it's sort of like
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it creates a sense of accountability. Um and it also proves that this is the person I'm speaking to. You know, I have
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on my website um sending me a LinkedIn profile or telling me to Google you is not the same as
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identification verification. You know, you can say you're Warren Buffett, but that doesn't mean you're him. So, I I I
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need to sort of suss that out and then occasionally I will ask for a photo ID and um a selfie just to like compare the
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photos. And that's that's sort of the overview of screening. >> So, you work together. So, when you're
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saying references, you're saying um references from other women who have experience with him.
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>> Correct, yes. So, they will tell me, you know, most of the time it's just like
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yes, I've seen him, he's safe. Um or no, I haven't, this is a fake reference. Um sometimes they'll go into more
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detail. They can tell me about his, you know, his hygiene, um if he was late. But you know, a lot of our work is is
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networking, too. We we work together. Um we offer what we call in the industry duos where, you know, two of us will see
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a client together. Um or trios or moresomes. Um So, yeah, we we we refer clients to each
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other. We we share them. Um I always say that a uh networking trumps advertising any day.
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You know, it's a weird world anyways because of all the stigma and legal issues attached to it. Um so,
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having a community is so important for me. >> Does everyone in your life um know about your work and the industry
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you're in? >> No. Most people do. Um all of my friends do. Most of my family does.
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There's sort of this There's a bit of a don't ask, don't tell policy with uh like my parents, they found out a couple
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of years ago. Um I was outed and word got back to them. And when they sort of confronted me about it, I did sort of a
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you know, neither confirm nor deny. Um My sister knows. Uh she is wonderful and very supportive. Um
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and so, she's she's navigated some of the you know, when I first moved to New York, my parents were like, "Why Why did
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she do that again?" And she was just sort of like, "Let's just agree that, you know, we love her and we don't ask
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questions." And they're like, "Okay." And I'm not close enough with my the people who don't know um
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that it's worth it for me. But everyone that I like truly care about and have like a great relationship with,
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definitely know. >> What are questions that you hate being asked when you tell someone for the
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first time what you do? >> Um one of my least favorite questions is >> Have I asked that?
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>> You have not. No, is uh You have not. Is uh what's the weirdest thing or the grossest thing or
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you know, in in invoking some kind of trauma. They're trying to get me to share a trauma with them, and I always
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find that to be a horrible question. Um and it's indicative of like the stigma, the idea of what people think sex work
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is, I guess. Um but I really hate that question. >> You said that >> Even clients, even people who are, you
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know, involved in the industry sometimes, they they can have a limited perspective. I had a client who said
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like, "Oh, but like how do you date?" Um and that's that's also actually a pretty
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horrible question as though because of my work I am undatable. Um and I I, you know, I was like, "Oh,
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actually, you know, I'm married." And just like if if there was a if you could put a visual of like, you know,
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the head exploding, that was what this guy looked like, and he was silent for like a minute, and I sort of poked him
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and joked. I was like, "Yeah, it's a little surprising, I guess." And he was like, "I just I can't I can't imagine."
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And then um he didn't want to see me again because I was married, which was also sort of interesting. It implies
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this sort of like, you know, I'm owned by another man, so they can't see me even though I they intellectually know I
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see many men as my work. It's Yeah, I don't know. >> Will you tell me about your clients? Who
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is Who Who are you spending time with? What is the range? >> There's There's definitely a range.
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There's an average, but there's a range. My youngest client was uh 19-year-old um
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who hired me and another guy. He was a retail manager of some clothing store. I I don't know how he got the finances to
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see us, but um I'll never forget him. He was sweet. And my oldest client was probably my first client. Um he was
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well into his 80s, um if not early 90s. Um But I would say my average client is someone in his early 50s, white,
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upper middle class, um to wealthy. I mean, I'm I'm not seeing the uber wealthy, but certainly
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I have clients who have given me six figures a year cumulatively. And yeah, they just they some of them are
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pretty dedicated to me and don't see anyone else. Some of them see me and a couple of my friends. Some of them are
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what we call hobbyists in the industry where they want to meet a bunch of different girls and have
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different experiences, um, you know, you have to deal with a lot of ego. You have to deal with a lot of
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un-navigated waters sometimes for people if they're they're new to the world or even if they're not, they're just
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they're just new to you and they're used to things a certain way and you know, once the clock is up for me,
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I have used I've like budgeted my my resources and my energy for that time. Um, it's a lot of work, but I love it. I
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always feel really energized after after having a session. >> She says she's working at a level now
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where she doesn't seek many new clients. She has regulars and dedicated income coming in each month. She travels for
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work, sometimes many times in a month, but traveling internationally can cause problems.
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A few years ago, she was traveling from New York to Canada. She landed at midnight and when she got to
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immigration, they were waiting for her. They had her website printed out. They showed it to her and said, "This is
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you." They detained her for eight hours and then sent her back to New York. She was
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prohibited from going back to Canada for a year. Jessica's an advocate for the decriminalization of sex work, the full
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removal of criminal penalties for people both selling and buying sex. Decriminalization bills have been
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introduced in Maine and Massachusetts. Opponents say that creating this legal path for sex work will encourage sex
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trafficking. Amnesty International, the United Nations, and the World Health Organization have all recommended
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decriminalization of consensual sex work. But at the moment, there's only one place in the United States where people
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can sell sex services legally. The legal brothels of rural Nevada. The law is tricky. It's regulated by
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county. Brothels are not legal all over the state. They're prohibited in counties
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that include Las Vegas and Reno. But rural counties with a population under 700,000
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get to decide for themselves whether or not to allow brothels. Oh, and here's our first sign
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that says bunnies at play. It's like a road sign. There are two rabbits on top of each
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other and it says bunnies at play. We visited the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. These are tumbleweeds?
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Is this what a tumbleweed is? >> Well, my name is Alice Little and I'm a legal sex worker here at the Moonlight
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Bunny Ranch. >> What is the Moonlight Bunny Ranch? >> The Moonlight Bunny Ranch is a legal
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brothel out in one of the rural counties of Nevada. We're located in Mound House,
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Nevada, which is the unincorporated adjacent town to Carson City, Nevada, about 45 minutes away from Reno. So, not
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completely desolate. >> The Moonlight Bunny Ranch looks like an old wild west building that's been
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painted pink. You press a buzzer at the gate. After being buzzed in, we were greeted by a
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very big man wearing an HBO hat. He handed us brochures and asked if we were there to see anyone in particular.
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There's a living room and a bar with a pink neon sign that says bunny bar. Alice Little has worked here since 2017
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and is often described as the highest earning legal sex worker in the country. She was born in Ireland in a big family
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and grew up in New York City and on Long Island. She worked as a jockey at Belmont
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racetrack for a little while. She's 4 ft 8 in tall. She says she's always been curious about
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sex, everything about it. Her parents never gave her the so-called sex talk, so she says she learned a lot from the
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internet. She became especially interested in BDSM. >> When I was living in New York City as an
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adult on my own, I had to of course have roommates like so many do when you live
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in New York City and are fresh out of college. You can't afford anything. So, myself and my multiple roommates were
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sharing a space together. Come to find out that one of them was employed by their parents' private BDSM dungeon in
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New York City. Like this is fresh out of 50 Shades here. I was like, "What? You mean your parents own a secret sex
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dungeon? I want in." And I nagged my roommate until I was eventually given a front desk position and eventually I was
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given the responsibility of coordinating the education schedule. So, I was on the
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phone with educators all across the country setting up all of these different classes.
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And well, I was given the opportunity to get this world-class kink education from
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all of these people flying in from all over the world. And eventually, I was asked to teach a class of my own for the
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dungeon. One person saw me present and invited me to speak at another conference, and so I was invited
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somewhere else, and before long, I was eventually invited to the BDSM conference in Rome.
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Really crazy stuff, and through that avenue, I came across another sex educator that just so happened to be
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employed at a little place known as the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. She shared her experiences at this location with me,
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and I was all in. It pretty much was a 72-hour decision from the time that I thought about applying from the time
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that I booked my first plane ticket to come out and do a 2-week tour. >> Had you known about the Bunny Ranch
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growing up? >> I certainly had an idea. I may or may not have snuck out of bed when I was a
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child to watch the HBO Cathouse series. Pleading the fifth here. Don't want to get myself in trouble. Love you, Mom.
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But oh, I definitely knew what the Bunny Ranch was, and I was like, "Ooh, I remember that place." And I wanted to be
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a part of that. I wanted to be a part of the experience. >> What What was it like when you first got
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here? Just tell me about the first the 2-week tour. >> One of the things that the ranch does to
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help the ladies get acclimated to their new career is to partner them up with a more experienced lady who kind of acts
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as her big sister and mentor. She helps you negotiate your first few experiences,
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learn about the different experiences that you can choose to offer, as well as let you know what your rights are as a
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legal sex worker. >> Where are we sitting right now? Where Where are we right now?
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>> We are in my private suite on the Bunny Ranch property, which is located slightly off of the main house because
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I'm available by appointment only. I don't need to hear the lineup bell, which is how the ladies know that we
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have company in the parlor. >> Alice Little appears to have some kind of seniority around here. She only sees
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one client a day. She's two horses that live at the ranch. Her suite is away from the main building because she
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doesn't participate in the lineup. >> So, what a lineup is is means that company has come into the parlor and is
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looking to mix and mingle with all of the currently available ladies. A bell is pressed to let the ladies know that,
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"Hey, we have company." The ladies then come out from their rooms or wherever they are on the property out to the
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parlor where they all stand in a row with their hands clasped behind their back and go down one by one introducing
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themselves by name. So, if I were in lineup, I'd say, "Hi, my name's Alice Little."
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At that point, the gentleman or gentlewoman is then encouraged to reach out to the lady of his or her choosing
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and then take a tour of the property. That's where we then go and explore the bar and parlor area. I'll typically
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share with them where the ladies' kitchen is, introduce them to my horses. After we go through the tour, we then
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return back to the ladies' room where she sits down with her guest and talks about what they would like to do with
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their time together and how long they would like to spend together. Keep in mind that the lady chooses to take that
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gentleman on tour. If she's picked by someone that she's not comfortable with, she's able to do a warm handoff to
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another coworker and excuse herself politely from the situation. >> Every woman that works at the Bunny
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Ranch has to register with the county sheriff's office. And you can't register to work in a
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legal brothel if you have a criminal record. The women are also required by law to be
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tested for STIs. According to Nevada law, sexual services and money may only be discussed in
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person at the brothel. Rates cannot be posted online or discussed online or by phone. It all
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must happen in person. So, for instance, if a guest chooses one of the sex workers from the lineup, they
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go back to her room and negotiate. When a price is agreed upon, they go to see the Bunny Ranch cashier
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called the hooker booker. >> The industry standard at this time is a 50/50 contractual split between the
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legal sex worker and the brothel. Additionally, each brothel location charges a a menial amount of money per
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day, kind of a a room and board expense. It covers your lights, your electric, food, the laundry, etc.
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>> In 2018, a former madam, TJ Moore, told the New Yorker that the brothel keeps a close
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tally of every expense, every condom, tampon, and hamburger patty. >> So, are your rates
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is every woman's rates different? >> Oh, yes. Every single lady is an independent contractor.
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As such, everyone's rates are different. >> Alice Little has said she aims to bring
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in $84,000 a month, including at least one overnight client, for which she charges $20,000.
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She says most of the time her clients are men, but not always. >> I've recently started seeing single
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straight women that are interested in learning more about their bodies. They've never been taught how to
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pleasure themselves, how to shop for a sex toy, how do I actually please my partner in the bedroom? Those are the
00:25:00
kinds of questions that single women are coming to me with, and I'm making experience happen for them that are more
00:25:06
educationally focused, or more exploration focused if they're instead coming here to learn about their own
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bodies. It's incredible. We see men that are as young as the age of 18 and all the way into their 80s. We see couples.
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We see gentlemen that are virgins who have never had sex before. And we also see individuals that have maybe lost
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their partner, that are widows after their spouses passed away. There really is no stereotype for who is a client of
00:25:40
a legal sex worker. I always joke that like I'm a magician. I make fantasies come to life. And this
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is the unique space that so long as you're comfortable communicating with me, we can make something really cool
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happen. >> Do you think that some of us are more open than others? >> Absolutely so.
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Many people learn how to feel about sex from their parents or from religious leaders. We base our perceptions of how
00:26:12
we should feel about sex and intimacy based off of how our parents react. When you get new information or learn
00:26:20
something, you have to be able to reevaluate what your opinion of that is. Often times when I ask someone, "Why are
00:26:27
you against legalizing sex work?" They're not able to actually answer my question. They've never actually asked
00:26:34
themselves, "Why am I against this?" Instead, they've internalized a feeling or a belief and convinced themselves
00:26:41
that this is reality that, "Oh, no, these women might be forced or coerced or trapped." But the reality is, we all
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choose to be here. There's actually a waiting list of ladies that want to come in work here and there simply aren't
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enough opportunities to pass around to everyone. >> For someone like you who is you're so clear and direct about how
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this work is empowering, how this work is allowing you to choose your schedule, what you want to do, explore your body.
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So what do you say to another woman who might be saying, "No, this is objectifying women. This is pushing us
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backwards." I mean, what what does it make you feel when when you have or confronted with
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all the other things people will say, especially women, about sex work? >> Oh boy, you just activated my trap card.
00:27:39
I've got quite the rant when it comes to being a genuine ally to sex workers. It
00:27:46
starts with listening to what they are saying. You can't be an advocate or an ally to them if you're
00:27:53
speaking over them and missing the context of what they are saying. If legal sex workers are telling you,
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"Actually, I love my job and I'm empowered by it. I want to work here." you should instead say, "Okay, well, how
00:28:07
can I help you? What assistance do you need?" The biggest difficulty that I have as a sex worker is that nobody
00:28:14
wants to listen to me. Nobody actually is looking to talk to me. The media is constantly talking about me, but they
00:28:22
very often fail to actually reach out and talk to a legal sex worker directly. You're not an ally when you talk over us
00:28:31
and put your negative assumptions on us. And what I've learned is that you have to
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listen to people and help them in the way that they want to be helped. >> We asked her why she chooses to be here
00:28:48
at the Bunny Ranch instead of working on her own. >> Ooh. Well, I've only ever worked as a legal
00:28:56
sex worker. I've never done independent sex work or illegal sex work. With that being said, I do think that
00:29:06
there should be an option legally in this country that allows for women to work independently through a legal
00:29:13
system. At this time in America, all legal sex workers have to be licensed through a Nevada brothel and work
00:29:20
associated with that brothel, but that's not true internationally. In New Zealand, they have a legal system that
00:29:28
allows for both legalized brothel work as well as legalized independent work, where the ladies are able to set up
00:29:35
their own in-call location and are able to set their own appointments and schedule themselves however they so
00:29:41
choose. I do think we need an option here in the states that allows for women to work legally independently.
00:29:49
It is a criminalized industry, and as such, they definitely will go after you if you choose to work in an
00:29:57
non-associated capacity. >> The Bunny Ranch was owned for more than 20 years by a man named Dennis Hof.
00:30:04
He published an autobiography called The Art of the Pimp. There are photos of Dennis Hof and
00:30:11
various celebrities posted all around the ranch. Governor Jesse Ventura, Larry Flynt,
00:30:17
Carrot Top, Vince Neil from Mötley Crüe. Which is interesting because Vince Neil
00:30:23
was charged with battery in 2003 for grabbing a Bunny Ranch sex worker by the throat and throwing her against a wall.
00:30:31
He pled no contest. Over the years, Dennis Hof was repeatedly accused of sexually assaulting his employees and
00:30:40
refusing to wear a condom. It's unclear why he was never prosecuted. But, reporters have noted that Dennis
00:30:48
Hof's brothels generated a lot of revenue for these rural counties. Former NBA player Lamar Odom overdosed
00:30:57
in one of Dennis Hof's brothels in 2015. He recently stated that he did not intentionally ingest any drugs, and
00:31:06
accused Dennis Hof of trying to kill him. Dennis Hof died last year of a heart attack just after his 72nd birthday
00:31:14
party. One month later, Nevada voters elected him to the State Assembly posthumously.
00:31:22
>> What about the negative stuff that when you hear the negative things that have
00:31:26
been said about Dennis Hof here? What do you say to the criticism that has come out of this place? Women
00:31:34
who have worked here, but also all of the criticism that's been said about the man who was running this place. What's
00:31:40
your answer to that? >> I can only speak to my first hand experiences. I by no means spent 24/7 with Dennis
00:31:49
Hof. So, I don't know what Dennis Hof did 24/7. And for me to say that I know what he did 24/7 would be a lie.
00:31:58
Instead, all I can do is speak as to the person that I interacted with. And in my
00:32:03
experience, he was nothing but wonderful. He was a very well-educated mentor, a very savvy businessman, who
00:32:10
really used the early instances of reality TV to his advantage. And I never experienced anything that would be
00:32:19
indicative of anything negative. >> The brothels of rural Nevada aren't just criticized because of Dennis Hof.
00:32:27
In our last episode, we spoke with a former sex worker named Cecilia Gentili. She's trans, and grew up in Argentina in
00:32:36
the 1970s. She's been arrested and even sexually assaulted by police. We wanted to get her take on these legal
00:32:44
brothels. >> It's fine. I think it's great to have spaces where like, you know, people can do sex work. I think
00:32:52
it's the places like the the Bunny Ranch is like who who works there, right? The ideas of
00:33:03
beauty are, you know, so uh terribly policed uh by owners. They, you know, if if, you know,
00:33:19
can you work at the Bunny Ranch if you are in your 50s and you don't have the perfect body and you're not blonde and
00:33:27
white? I I I I don't think I don't think places like the the the Bunny Ranch is is is
00:33:35
open to uh bodies and races and legal statuses and um uh uh ages, you know? Uh I think those
00:33:50
places are okay if you are young, skinny, blonde, white. Uh so those places are uh
00:34:03
targeted to a specific group of sex workers, right? Which is great that they have a place, but, you
00:34:10
know, if, you know, uh did you see a trans person in the ranch? >> No. >> Did you see uh a fat woman in the ranch?
00:34:20
>> No. >> So is that kind of legalized sex work open to every sex worker? I guess the answer is no.
00:34:35
So, I'm not against it, but it puts power over, you know, the the owner of the ranch into who you're going to hire.
00:34:45
When decriminalization is just open to everybody that that has to do sex work. >> Something that Cecilia and Jessica and
00:34:56
Alice all said to us was that while sex is obviously part of the job and it's the part outsiders are most curious
00:35:04
about, the real work has nothing to do with the sex. Alice Little says her most requested
00:35:11
encounter is the so-called girlfriend experience, a more involved kind of attention from her, holding hands, long
00:35:19
conversations, texting. >> The reality is is that sex makes up about 2% of what I actually do. Sex
00:35:27
isn't the focus, intimacy is. That's what people are coming to the Bunny Ranch for. It's never been the sex, it
00:35:33
never will be the sex. Sex is common, sex sex is everywhere. You can go to the bar and have sex if you want to.
00:35:41
People, I think, have this negative perception of monetizing sex because they don't see
00:35:48
the value in the labor that women are actually doing. When a woman is being communicative,
00:35:56
intimate with a non-experienced partner and is focusing on them, helping them, teaching them, that's there's value to
00:36:04
that. That's that's work. And I don't think people truly understand what it is that people are buying when
00:36:12
they come to a legal sex worker. They assume that they're buying sex, that they're paying for a blow job, you know,
00:36:19
dollars for minutes, but that's just not the case. They're coming to buy something that's intangible, this
00:36:25
emotion, essentially. they're coming and experiencing connection, and that's where the real value lies.
00:36:47
>> Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer.
00:36:53
Audio mix by Rob Byers. Special thanks to Susanna Robertson. Julian Alexander makes original
00:37:00
illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com.
00:37:05
We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show. Criminal is recorded in the studios of
00:37:10
North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best podcasts
00:37:19
around. Shows like Ear Hustle, which share stories about daily life in San Quentin State Prison from the
00:37:26
perspective of those living in it. Season 4 has just launched. After co-host Earlon Woods got some
00:37:32
exciting news last fall, this season will be a little different than the other three.
00:37:38
>> We're also telling stories about life outside prison, post incarceration. >> So, a lot of people ask me what it was
00:37:44
and how long I have to wear it and why do I have it on and like, damn, it seem like you locked up, you still got to
00:37:50
wear that and how long you got to wear that? >> Outside stories, inside stories, it all
00:37:55
starts with episode 1 of season 4 of Ear Hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. >> Ear Hustle is back.
00:38:08
>> Don't miss Ear Hustle's fourth season on earhustlesq.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:38:15
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. >> Radiotopia from PRX.