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When was the first time that you heard the term Stockholm syndrome? It was this psychiatrist
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who is dead now, but he was a >> [laughter] >> strange guy. The term Stockholm syndrome
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was coined by psychiatrist Nils Bejerot. It became well known in 1974 when newspaper heiress Patty Hearst was
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kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army. And instead of wanting to be rescued, she teamed up with the people
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who kidnapped her and began to help them rob banks. But that's not where we get the term
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Stockholm syndrome. One summer in 1973 two men robbed a bank in Stockholm. They held four people hostage for 6
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days. The bank robbers had met one another in prison. Their names were Jan-Erik Olsson and
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Clark Olofsson. Here's Clark. The main thing was take it easy. We're going to nobody going to get killed.
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Because I was a good guy. >> [music] >> And the police was a bad guy. >> [laughter]
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>> This is the beginning of the Stockholm syndrome. By the time the two men met in prison,
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Clark had robbed a lot of banks. He'd been to prison many times. Clark became known all over Sweden when
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a robbery went wrong and his friend shot and killed a policeman. He'd become [music] a kind of celebrity bank robber.
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Clark was 26 and Jan was 32. So you met him in prison, what did you think of him when you met him? I thought
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he was an idiot. He was a useful idiot. And he was a chicken thief, they call him.
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Small guy. Clark remembers that Jan wanted to hear all about how to rob a bank step by
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step. [music] He was so interested in how to make it, how to make bank robberies, how to do this and that. So
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I'm tended to have it like a fairy tale every evening before he he went to sleep.
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He wanted to hear over and over again. It was taking hostages in the bank and blah
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blah blah blah. I had never thought that it should happen. But when it happened, I knew immediately
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it was him. On August [music] 23rd, 1973 Clark was still in prison. He'd been moved to solitary confinement.
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Jan had escaped. Jan put on a wig and fake glasses, walked into a bank in Stockholm by
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himself, and pulled out a machine gun, and shot at the ceiling. In a fake American accent, he said, "The
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party has just begun." and proceeded to take three bank employees, all women, hostage. This is the bank in Stockholm
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where the robber has barricaded himself. He is equipped with a machine gun and he has
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several people as ransom in there. He has already shooting one policeman in the hand while the policeman try to
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overtake him and the other ones had to escape and run for cover. And since then, nobody
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has really been able to see him. They have policemen in the localities and they are trying to get hold to shoot
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at him. A bank employee later said, "I believed I was seeing something that could only happen in America."
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Jan made three demands. He wanted $700,000 and a quote fast car. He also wanted Clark Olofsson to be
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released from prison and driven to the bank where Jan was holding the hostages. So when did you hear about it? When the
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the Minister of Justice called me in the prison. >> [laughter] >> What did he say?
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>> He said, "There is a one man in Stockholm in a bank in Stockholm who demands you to be
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transported to him. What do you say?" I said, "Yes, of course. I come immediately."
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You knew exactly who was in that bank calling for you. >> Yeah, yeah. Did you want to go? Yeah, of course.
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I was in isolation. I was in deep [ __ ] So everything anything else was paradiso.
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So he he his plan was get me to the bank. Then he can relax. I will fix it. Of all the people we've talked to on
00:04:26
this show I think Clark Olofsson might have surprised us the most. We were surprised he agreed to the
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interview. We were surprised by the things he said. He's confident in a way that's hard to
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make sense of. But given what he did maybe we shouldn't have been surprised. [music]
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I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. >> [music] >> How did you get from the prison to the
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bank? Well, police escort all the way. But the police were instructed not to take Clark inside the bank, just [music]
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to bring him so that Jan could see he was there. The you know, the Minister of Justice absolutely forbid them to to
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bring me inside the bank. Only to the bank. And use me as a bargaining chip. But you know,
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the communication among the policemen inside the bank was so bad. So when I came down the stairs
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one policeman thought I should never be able to go in. The other one, he was sure I
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should go in. So I jumped. So I jumped over them. Why did you want to get in that bank?
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You know, I know the Swedish system. I know the Swedish mentality. And 1973, it was a very soft, nice,
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human country. They should never shoot any sausage. They should never shoot even a bank robber.
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1973, it was that situation and that I was playing along with. So I jumped over them.
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When Clark got inside the bank, he saw that Jan had taken three hostages and tied them up. And I calmed the situation
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immediately. I was joking with them, untie everybody, make order, kick out all the police in the bank.
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And then start to negotiate. Were they terrified? What what did they look like? Yeah, yeah. When I came, they
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were terrified. After 5 minutes, they were cool. I said, "Hey, take it just easy. We're
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going to fix this." >> [music] >> He was calming everything down. He said, "You can't have the girls tied up like
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this. Tie them loose." Kristin Enmark was one of the hostages. She was 23 years old at the time. Here's
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what she told the podcast Memory Motel in 2016. I think me and and all the others were
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very I was very glad that he came because the situation >> [music] >> became totally different.
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In her memoir, which isn't [music] translated into English Kristin Enmark describes seeing Clark for the first
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time. She says he was quote a mix between Che Guevara and Jesus. She was very sweet. She was looking
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anxiously when I came and she looks very grateful when I cut [music] her ropes and everything.
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And then we became very very near. She she was very she was very very sweet girl. She was 23 years old.
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And I and I like girls. Was she scared of you at first? Yes, she was scared from everything. But the
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after 1 minute, she felt better and she still thinks that I saved her life. Kristin writes in her book,
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>> [music] >> "He talked to us. Fixed things." After untying the hostages, one of the
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first things Clark says he did was walk around the main banking floor to make sure that no police [music]
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had gotten inside. He didn't find any police but he did find a bank employee hiding in a closet.
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His name was Sven Säfström and he became their fourth hostage. Meanwhile the entire country was watching.
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It was Sweden's first televised crime and was being broadcast all over the country. They called it the bank drama.
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Swedish citizens called the police to offer suggestions, especially elderly women who suggested things like a
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concert of religious songs to soften the bank robbers' resolve. Someone suggested putting bees inside
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the bank, sending them in through the air vents, so that everyone would have to come running outside.
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A third caller proposed putting soap all over the bank floor so the robbers would
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slip, fall, and be easily arrested. The hostages had asked to make phone calls to their families. They asked for
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tampons. Clark made these things part of the negotiation. So I every time police
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did something, I said, "Look the bastards, what they do against you. I going to take care of it."
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So you know, the sympathy came slowly over to my side. So you were able to take these small
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little things that the police weren't doing and say, "Hey, I'm going to get this for you." Yeah, yeah, sure. This
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was the plan. And they had no interest to talk to the the hostage and to be nice to them or to
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comfort them. We did. I did. Clark and Jan took the hostages into the bank's small, windowless vault.
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The vault ceilings were low. One of the hostages, Elisabeth Oden was feeling claustrophobic.
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Jan tied a rope around her neck and let her step outside of the vault to get some air.
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They divided up food equally, slicing pears to make sure there was enough for everyone.
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Kristin says she set up her bed next to the door to be near Clark. You are in this situation
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and there comes a man who says, "You can sit here beside me. I'm going to protect
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you." And and well, there's nothing to lose. I can't say that I felt safe because
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that's not the word, but uh he meant very much to me. And I explained to her this system, the the
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mentality in Sweden, how the police are thinking, how the politicians absolutely
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them, how they were thinking. These conversations meant a lot to Kristin. She felt like Clark cared about her and
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that the police and the Swedish politicians were only focused on arresting Clark and Jan
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and weren't worried about the safety of the hostages. I was the one who was the the victim and
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I think they maybe they could listen to what I wanted. The hostages were giving phone
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interviews to reporters all over the world, not only saying that they were okay, but that they wanted the police to
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back off. Kristin told the New York Times, "Why can't they let the boys drive off
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with us in the car?" And I called all newspapers, all television stations just to be sure that nobody could say, "We
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had to because they are dangerous and they are so and so." So, the hostages were being quoted in in newspapers. You
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They were They were calling They were letting the public know that they were okay. Yeah, and not even not only that,
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they said, "We are not at all at all afraid of the robbers. We are afraid of the police."
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>> [laughter] >> And they believed it. Were you manipulating them or did you care about them?
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I cared about them and I was manipulating them very much because for the sake, not for the just for fun,
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for the sake. And it should be much more safe if we were if we are playing for the same team.
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Because then we don't need to to to watch out something. They were watching out for themselves. So, they were their
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own own guards. >> [music] >> Kristin and Mark spoke to the Swedish Prime Minister on the telephone.
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They talked for nearly an [music] hour. It was recorded. She said, "I think you're sitting there playing
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checkers with our lives. I fully trust [music] Clark and the robber. They haven't done a thing to us.
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What I'm scared of is that the police will attack and cause us to die." >> [music]
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>> On the morning of the third day, a police officer snuck into the bank and shut the vault door, locking Jan, Clark,
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and all of the hostages inside. Well, I remember hearing the you know, when the door was shut and
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then I said, "Okay, now we're closed in. We can't get out um if the police doesn't open the door.
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But that's if you excuse me, [music] that's when the [ __ ] really hit the fan. The police were done negotiating.
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No more food or water. They began to drill holes into the walls of the vault. Police started drilling
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uh and uh Jan says [music] and Clark too, they they're drilling because they want to
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put in gas. The drilling was day and night for I don't know how many hours, how many days.
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And the the the light went out, so it was dark about I said about 12 13 hours and then I mean
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dark. [music] You know, it was dark dark. Water used to cool the drills began to
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flood the vault. >> [music] >> They tried to drink the water off the floor. Looking back, Kristin writes, "We were
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tired both mentally and physically. We lived in something you could call the valley of death.
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The situation had transformed us entirely." And then, on the sixth day, the police
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began to pump tear gas into the holes they drilled. When that happened, Kristin remembers
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Jan telling them to get up. He said, "Get up, girls." Then I thought he was going to kill me.
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I really did. But he didn't. He said, "I surrender." I remember shouting, "He surrendered. He
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surrendered." Because I was so afraid that he would regret that. And then the police opened the door.
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And when I look out, I see these two guys looking like Rambo. They want us to come out first, the hostage. Jan said
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no. He thought that if the hostages left first, that the police would kill him. He wanted to leave first with Clark. So,
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we said, "Let the guys go out first." Jan and Clark were seen hugging and shaking hands with the hostages. The
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women kissed them. And then all six people walked out together with Jan and Clark in front.
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They were immediately arrested. The hostages were put on stretchers. There's a video of the exit and you can
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see Kristin sitting upright on her stretcher looking around for Clark. She yelled, "Clark, I'll see you again."
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The hostages spent 10 days in the hospital being evaluated by psychiatrists. Jan was charged with violent robbery,
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kidnapping, and attempted murder. Clark was charged with violent robbery. He pleaded his own case and argued that
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he was forced into participating in the whole ordeal, first by the police, then by Jan. [clears throat]
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Kristin refused to testify against Clark. She lied and said she never seen Clark
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hold a gun. It was very clear to her that Clark shouldn't be punished. She wrote, "Had I
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been able to decide, I would have given him a medal." But over the years, she's been both
00:17:00
supportive and critical of him. For everything kind she writes about him in her book, she also writes, "His plan
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was only his and contained only his needs and wishes. The rest of us were just bricks in his
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game." Jan was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Clark didn't go to prison at all.
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People have often speculated over the years that the two men had to have planned it together.
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Do you feel bad that he went to prison and you didn't? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.
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I never feel bad when I'm not in prison. >> [laughter] >> No, it was not not You know, I don't
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feel guilty at all about it. Because he tried to even to use me then. Even then.
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He is a really shitty ass. Egoistic, money hungry, betrayer, traitor. [music] >> [laughter]
00:18:00
>> A year after the robbery, Jan told the New Yorker, quote, "I had lives for assets. What could be more valuable?"
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After he was released from prison, Jan moved to Thailand >> [music] >> and married a woman with whom he'd
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become pen pals while he was in prison. Clark has been back to prison many times
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since 1973. He was just released again a few months before we spoke with him for involvement
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in drug smuggling. The [music] apparent friendly relationship between Clark and Jan and
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the hostages was confusing to psychiatrists. In the days after they were released,
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they continued to speak highly of the two men who'd kidnapped them. Nils Bejerot said,
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"Their calm facades hide chaos." He came up with the term Stockholm syndrome to describe some kind of
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unconscious [music] defense mechanism that bonds hostages to their captors. >> [music]
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>> As popular as the term is, there still isn't much academic research on it. Some researchers have called it an urban
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myth. When you hear the word Stockholm syndrome, what do you think? No, I'm I laugh every time. But and you hear it so
00:19:16
often. I was in Antigua on my boat and met an American there. We had some drinks.
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We were living in in my boat for a week. And it happens that his mother in Texas
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was a was a one one of the best experts on Stockholm syndrome. So, when she he called her, she got crazy. She wanted to
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come. Then I had to leave. >> [laughter] >> You know, but people psychiatrists and
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psychologists, they use that term in so many ways it was not meant and it is not
00:19:50
But it's a it's a you know it's a combination of everything. But but if you say Stockholm Syndrome,
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everybody knows what it is about. The the hostages are connected or tied with the with the
00:20:04
rubber. And in this case, Kristin, in particular, did have a connection with Clark.
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In her book, she says it's important that people know she didn't fall in love with him in the vault.
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In the vault, she says, she liked him. She trusted him. And then later, she writes, something
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more did develop between them. You had a relationship with her that was more than friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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yeah, much. We had fun like hell. Did you kiss her when you were in the vault? No, no, no, no, absolutely not.
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I But I said to her, "Hey, we take all that afterwards." It all happened after. >> [laughter]
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>> So, she know what I meant. And that we did. Clark and Kristin are still in touch.
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They're just friends now. He calls her Kiki. Over the years, Kristin has been vocal about her
00:21:01
frustration with journalists and psychiatrists who present her as too traumatized to recognize what happened
00:21:08
to her. She's sick of the term Stockholm Syndrome. "Syndrome is a condition of illness,"
00:21:16
she said. "I became stamped as ill and thus not credible." She isn't the only one who felt a
00:21:24
connection with her captors. Elisabeth Oldgren accused the doctors of trying to brainwash away her regard for
00:21:31
Jan and Clark. Sven later said, "When Jan treated us well, we could think of him as an emergency god."
00:21:41
The fourth hostage, Birgitta Lundblad, was the first to visit Clark in prison. What is it about you, do you think, that
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makes women and makes people go to your side, not be afraid of you? Yeah, no, I'm a nice guy.
00:22:00
>> [laughter] >> I am. Even even a nice guy even if you're holding a gun. >> [snorts]
00:22:05
>> Even then. Even then. You know, I have robbed banks. Half of the bank personnel don't even know that
00:22:13
something happens. I wonder if anyone ever anyone's ever said, "Hey, hold on. Stop telling
00:22:18
everyone else they're the bad guy. You're the bad guy." No, no. I never heard one I never heard a person say one
00:22:25
bad word in my ears in all my life. >> [snorts] >> Never. What do judges say to you now when you
00:22:33
get in trouble? >> They don't like me. This is the only place one of the few places I should not be in because they
00:22:40
think I'm an arrogant son of a [ __ ] with a bad attitude and he doesn't care. That's what I know they think. And we
00:22:48
will teach him a lesson. And that they do. Are you an arrogant son of a [ __ ] Yeah, yeah.
00:22:56
>> [music] >> Do people recognize you now? Yeah, yeah, and they like me. And it always ends
00:23:01
with the almost kissing. Handshakes and and they start Now they start Oh, my father, he was
00:23:08
>> [music] >> uh uh there and there when you robbed that to that bank and he he tried to take you
00:23:13
and all kinds of stories. Everybody has a story. And you once saw a tourist viewing the old bank, huh?
00:23:20
>> [music] >> What? You once saw a group of tourists viewing >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
00:23:25
yeah, [laughter] yeah, I did that. What did you do? I I I heard him. He was telling the
00:23:31
story of what happened inside the bank. And I went into the group. It was about 20 30 Americans.
00:23:37
And I started to say, "Hey, no, no, no, no, no, this is not what happened." He thought I
00:23:42
was an idiot, normal. A guy from >> [laughter] >> But they they group uh the some of the
00:23:49
people in the group, they started to believe understand. So, they Google when they were standing there.
00:23:55
And in the end, you know, he understood it [snorts] was me. And he was he he I I
00:24:00
even let him talk to to Kiki, the hostage, in the telephone. He his day was done, I promise you.
00:24:07
>> [music] >> Looking back on it all now, Clark told us that he was never nervous
00:24:14
in that bank. He says he always knew that it would all work out. He said, "It was a joyful period. I had fun."
00:24:23
>> [music] >> Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. >> [music] >> Nidia Wilson is our senior producer.
00:24:36
Audio mix by Rob Byers. Special thanks to Terrence Mickey of the Memory Motel podcast for allowing [music] us to air
00:24:44
excerpts of his 2016 conversation with Kristin Enmark. We've a link to their full episode in the show notes. And he's
00:24:52
got a new podcast called Self Help. Check it out. Thanks also to Susanna Robertson,
00:24:59
Mathilde Erflino, and Alba Mogensen. Julian Alexander creates original illustrations for each episode of
00:25:06
Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're on Facebook [music] and Twitter
00:25:11
@criminalshow. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio WUNC.
00:25:19
We're proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best podcasts around.
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One of those shows is Zigzag. They've just kicked off a brand new season. We now look at our own personal worthiness
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through the lens of extraction. We look to feel worthy through the money that we
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>> Good news is, if we can convince everyone that we all want the same thing, which is more sustainable ways of
00:25:49
living, the market will follow it. >> Venture capitalist steroids. So, as a founder, if you go to raise, you raise
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with venture, you're basically saying, I would like steroids and I would like Soylent and I would like to not sleep
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and I would like to eat this culture. >> If people can only speak up when they have a solution, you as a leader are
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never going to hear about the biggest problems that are just too complicated for any one person to figure out how to
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solve. >> There's a very large market opportunity in very small groups. That was my
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enterprises. >> [music] >> Go listen. I'm Phoebe Judge and I'm sorry my voice is raspy. I think I'm on the mend.
00:26:30
This is Criminal. >> [music] >> Radiotopia >> [music] >> from PRX.