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uh I was working at BB T I was at work my husband called me and he said that there was a detective at
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our house in Cary and that I needed to come home right away and I of course I started asking questions and
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he said he couldn't answer anything that they needed to talk with me in person and I had the gut feeling that it was
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one of my boys I didn't know which one but I felt that it was and I remember everything about going down the
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escalator I remember who stopped me and spoke to me on the way out I didn't say anything to them because I just didn't
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want to make it real that something was really wrong and and I remember the whole drive home
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did you talk to anyone on that drive are you just alone on that drive I was alone
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on the drive and I did not talk to anybody or call anybody and what happened when you showed up
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the detective was there and my husband was there and they were in the living room
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and I had a a purse a large purse that my son Stephen had given me on my arm and he said that he hated to tell me but
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that um my son Stephen had passed away and I remember dropping my purse I remember it made a loud noise
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and I've had to sit down I sat down on the couch and then the detective came and
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sat down with me and started telling me how sorry he was foreign he was murdered on January the 26 2012
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and he was murdered at six o'clock in the morning he was in a hotel room and the lady that came to clean the room
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found him around 11. I didn't know until we did the medical examiners but he had been shot twice I
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only knew from the death certificate that he'd been shot once in the shoulder um it was a robbery
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and he resisted it and the fight broke out and he was shot um and then on the way out they shot him
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again in the back so we believe he died at the scene fairly quickly how old was he 24.
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it was a life changer I'm not the same person that I was then Curtis Hoyle is buried in the cemetery
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at Enon Baptist Church in Oxford North Carolina this is his mother Freda McDonald
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today on the show we're speaking with three mothers who are part of a group called parents of murdered children here
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in Durham North Carolina Durham is a small town with a high homicide rate we followed this group
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parents of murdered children for a long time hoping that they would speak with us one day
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as you might imagine this is a private group of people and they felt mistreated by reporters in the past who knock on
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their doors with cameras looking for a sound bite as we got to know them they explained
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that it's not that they aren't willing to talk about their kids it's that people don't really listen
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I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] he was a nerd he was really he was a nerd and he was
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so smart that his teacher wanted to put him up a grade this is Jocelyn Sims she raised four boys on her own as a single
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mother and she's telling us about her oldest son Rey but Ray like other kids hate to say it and get older
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you know he got him a job got two jobs and then and both of them was way out not on the bus line so he bought him a
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car was in went to sleep coming home off on the job and told the car and couldn't get another job he had no
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way to get that work and by then he had some two kids by then of his own so he started selling drugs
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do you remember when you found that out were you disappointed yes I was and everything but he said Mama
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I gotta take care of my kids and I'm you know and I have to admit he wasn't these
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kinds that you know you go out there and there's no they buying these fantasy cars and all this jewelry he helped me
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with my bills took care of his kids took care of his girlfriend were you scared for him were you nervous
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no to be honest I never was he would be on like this be his blogger and somebody
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else have that block right across from him he didn't care everybody that I talked to in the area
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where he did his stuff even old people said he was so respectful so if he they saw him if he saw them for bad cause
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some he tried to help him take the stuff the house and said he wouldn't arguing nobody you know on the other coin and
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stuff he did his thing with the homie took care of his his kids make sure they did the homework play games Wilson and
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stuff like that Jocelyn says Rey was at her house constantly bringing over food or just spending time with her and
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because she was the only parent Rey would wish her a happy Mother's Day and a Happy Father's Day every Father's day
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he called me say Happy Father's Day Mom I love you you're the best he should tell me my mama no matter what we do as
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grown-ups you did us that you raised us the best you could to raise four Sons by
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yourself [Music] first 2005 Jocelyn got a phone call from Rey's girlfriend who told her that Rey
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was hurt and she needed to get to the emergency room so I get to an emergency room
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and I go to the desk and I tell the lady I say hello I just got a call about my son Ray Sims so she said just take a
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seat right there I'll be right back she went through the two you know they had glass doors then she went through the
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doors and came back and sat down at the desk and say nothing to me so I'm like that you know just waiting for somebody
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to tell me something I happen to look and I saw these policemen through the doors and still nobody said nothing I'm
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like what's going on you know they finally opened the door and they let me in and the doctor's standing there looking
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at me policemen looking at me and I'm like where's my son at and they still not still knocking them off they just
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looked at me like you know and I said where's my where's my son and a nurse came down and she um she knew Ray
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because we always lived on the same area and she turned me around I'm so sorry to
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raise dead this is what happened earlier that evening Ray was driving he was talking to a friend on the phone
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when someone drove into him police believed that it was on purpose and and he told the girl on the phone he
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said hold on me and he was at a stop sign so hoping that somebody just ran your back on me and he still had the
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phone in his hand when he got out and she said she heard him say hey man y'all y'all hit my car and they said no you
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hit me and he said how can I hit y'all when I'm at a stop sign y'all behind me and then all of a sudden she heard him
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say oh [ __ ] and he must have tried to get back in the car and dropped his phone in the car
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and it went off and they shot him and then um he was able to go he made a turn and he was
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able to try maybe about two and a half blocks and his car crash what was the funeral like
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full he was popular yes it was he yeah more women in there than me because he he had so many women that loved him
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because even after he died a friend of his had a child and named her child after him and stuff but yes I mean it
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was full you know family and friends so we had a cookout and celebrate his life we had black balloons
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and when when balloon for release the balloons on one got caught in the tree and stayed there until it was over and
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everybody started leaving all of a sudden that balloon just moved and went on and it made me feel like he was saying
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that I'm still here Mom you know Jocelyn had so many people around her who loved her and wanted to help but she
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says it didn't matter she still felt alone she found herself retreating stopped going out stopped seeing friends
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all I wanted to do was talk about my son and then I felt like they didn't want to
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hear that every time I came over so I just stopped coming you weren't branching out yeah I wasn't branching
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out and they would call me sometimes you know say come on let's go out the gym we
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haven't seen each other for a while and I said okay and the day that we spoke about the dinner I found myself
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confident no I can't I don't want to go like I said when something like that happened your whole life change and
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people look at you and they say well you got other kids you'll be all right they
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don't understand it don't matter how many children you have I have four sons and I tell people
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now I only got three-fourths of a heart because my other fourth is gone and no matter how many kids I got that can't be
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refilled okay my name is Carrie Watkins so when I hit when I had daughters I said I'm
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gonna name a daughter after me so I had four girls so I named um Carrie out to me and she was funny she loved it she
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loved music she loves music she always liked to put her hand on the hip you know
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she loves taking pictures so Cara Carol is very funny you know Kerry Watkins was murdered on Friday
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July 18 2008 she was 23. she was shot in the chest in a drive-by shooting she was shot in the chest but hit her
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hard so like I said I had to go down go to the hospital identify her body but when I went in there
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first time you know I passed out then they got me back up then I lay with her in the bed and I you know and she had a
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little bow and I took it off my hair and I still got that bro you know but that's
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that's the worst thing that happened in my life you can pretty much expect every other week for someone in
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little town of Durham North Carolina to be killed this is Marsha Owen she's organized
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vigils and prayer meetings for victims of homicide and over the years has become close with Frida Carrie and
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Jocelyn parents of murdered children has chapters all over the country it was started in 1978 by a couple who lost
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their 19 year old daughter two months after their daughter's murder the mother contacted a priest who put
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her in touch with three other parents whose children had been killed the couple invited the other parents to
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come to their house so it started with five parents in a house in Cincinnati and spread around the country
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it's a reality that should not be on every single level from every angle you can look at it it doesn't
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it should not exist it's a reality that should never exist um it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
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so unreasonable I'm interested in in when you meet a new mother a mother who's recently
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lost a sudden to violence what the first thing we do when um she comes to the meeting
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we sit there fire close by somebody's gonna be there beside her so they can hold their hand you know and we tell you
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know if you don't want to say anything you don't have to say anything you know but if you want to be here for you
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anytime you know we may talk about something else and then they may you know she may feel like she's ready to
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talk and then we get quiet and we let them that's their moment we don't say well honey you need to feel this we
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don't tell don't tell nobody how you need to feel what you need to say what you need to do it's up to them to say
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what they want to say when they want to say it and how they want to say it because like I may say something that
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somebody else who had a child murder disagree with and because I had something to say
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something I just script I'm not concerned so you had no right to say that because I don't agree what is it
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like talking to other mothers who've experienced violence like this are there common things that all of you yeah
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that's common stuff like I said we all lost a child through violence but we may it may affect us different because like
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we all are different ourselves but the one connection we do have is that our child was murdered so that
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gives us a connection so where we can talk to each other and like we said we there for each other
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I got one right now that when I'm down I call her just like that she called me we
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talk on the phone just about every day there's a building and say hey that we I'm gonna go check on this stuff that's
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what we did for we let each other know say look I don't care if it's two three or four o'clock in the morning you need
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to call call me you want to cry on the phone you can call and you cry on the phone and stuff that's because I can cry
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right along with you or I can just hold the phone while you cry whatever you want to do and that's what we do for
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each other we need that because nobody else can no matter how much like I could be married no matter how
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much I love my husband my kids or whoever that connection is not there they want us the way we were that's what
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they're comfortable with they love us they want us to be okay and they want us to be as we always were the people that
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we've met and and have been so happy to to get to know because they understand us they accept us for who we are now
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there are so many things that most of us will never understand about losing a child to murder first off for many of
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these mothers it's not just burying their child that they have to deal with they also have to deal with police and
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courtrooms and finding out who was responsible which can take years Jocelyn and Carrie have never found out who shot
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their children somebody can just be looking at you you know or looking that way and it looked like they're looking
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at you and you think why they looking at me do they kill or are you the one that killed my son or do
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you know who killed my son and that's why I go through you know every time somebody even look at me or whatever
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or if I'm going in the store somewhere and I'll be looking I would say I wonder did he kill them and then I also think
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about how many more people have he killed I wanted to address the court when it was the one that he knew Freda
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does know who killed her son I wanted to say something to him and I wasn't really sure
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what on Earth I could say but I I just winged it I didn't write anything down I just I just stood up and
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addressed the court and I remember it very well and I would tell anybody if you have an impact statement please put
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it together and please present it because you can't go back and do that so it it's important if you feel it all
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like you want to that you go ahead and do it and I do remember saying that I wish that heaven had visited hours
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that I would the thought of never being able to visit him again was overwhelming
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and I wanted to leave the courtroom with something positive that just seemed really important to me at the time
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and my son had written a really very short poem that I had found after he died when I was going through his
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clothes and so I recited that to the offender and I've always been glad that I did
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can I say that point please what's done is done what's here is now so make the best out of the worst and
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strive to make the best better love Stephen Curtis Hoyle it's been quite a striking thing for the
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courtroom to hear the judge walked out he had to take a minute did you look at the
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man in the eyes as you were I did did he look back at you he cried have you written to him since or had any
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contact no he he wrote me once I haven't been able to write back I've never been ready to do that and
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it's been six years so it's very complicated yeah absolutely it's very complicated and I think
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homicide opens the door to a lot of these kinds of struggles because I can't tell you how many times I've been asked
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have you forgiven him and so it becomes about me making another decision in my heart my mind
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and it's that's complicated very complicated [Music] over the course of our conversations
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with Frida Kerry and Jocelyn there were certain things that came up again and again
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that they all deal with all the time and that they're sick of for one we're all saying really dumb
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things where you get all the keys or God meant for you for that to happen or God
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knew what was best you know he wanted your son with him or and we even have a preacher uh creature
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told me God Don't Make Mistakes he needed your son for something else like what or even you know they turn around and
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say well oh he mostly did something I mean for him you know for them to shoot him you know what's the argue with them
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whether he wasn't I mean just stupid stuff you know I think the idea that they a lot of
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people start looking at the victim themselves and saying something about well what was he doing in that hotel
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room trying to find a way for it not to be something that could happen in in their back door
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and then main thing they want to do like you said the first thing they do is somebody's murder oh he had a record hit
00:19:10
and to make it seem like the victim asked for it because of the lifestyle like I tell people yeah my son was a
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drug dealer he wasn't a killer and stuff but I mean you got people who rob banks just cause you rob a bank that
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mean you're gonna you're gonna be bad the rest of your life you know and stuff I said don't judge somebody by their
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record I wonder who when you meet new people and they ask if you have children I'm
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always surprised that it everyone asks oh do you have children yes what do you say they're in heaven yeah I always say
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you know sometimes I got both girls I still say I got four girls you include Kerry you also got four girls and then
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if somebody say if I said she in heaven and and I always wear their names and I have their pictures on in a locket and
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so I I say well this is Stephen and Michael and so I try to take out the uncomfortable part of it because I
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always recognize that I make the other person uncomfortable a burden that you don't want to put on
00:20:17
anyone else no absolutely don't you makes them very uncomfortable what do you want us
00:20:24
to know those who might be scared to meet someone who lost a child how do you wish we spoke about it or handled it
00:20:34
remember them say in their name is it's always in our mind we're always thinking
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about them if it's their birthday if it's the anniversary of their death if it's when they would have just turned 30
00:20:47
it doesn't matter what the situation is to to see that person and not acknowledge that person that was with
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them for in my case 24 years that impacted their life the best gift I ever had was my children and and not to say
00:21:08
you know I think about you and I remember the time that you and Steven and I went down to the lake
00:21:14
to to not talk about that anymore it's like stripping you of the most precious thing which is your memories
00:21:23
[Music] I can see Ray sometime somebody can be dressed just like him at a distance and I still will come up and
00:21:30
yell out Ray and the only shoes he did wear was Timberlands he didn't I don't care what
00:21:37
kind of how hard it was he ain't putting nothing on his feet but Timberland he did not wear sneakers or
00:21:42
any other kind of shoe even at his brother's wedding he wanted to wear Timberlands and I had to force no you're
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gonna wear some regular shoes for your brother's wedding but my brother said I can wear them I can get some black ones
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he ain't getting no black team he's gonna wear regular shoes and stuff and I was just glad that he lived to be in his
00:22:00
brother's wedding you know because it's his baby brother had gotten married and he was so proud of him and stuff you
00:22:06
know Carol was funny and slowly get in the mirror when she put on her clothes you
00:22:13
know because she she was she a pretty girl and she would put up put on her clothes and she put her hand on her hip
00:22:19
so I said you got it girl you know so I got a lot of man Robert said well she was funny you know you could be sad
00:22:27
about going through she'll make you laugh Stephen was uh he was very compassionate he really
00:22:36
loved his friends he loved me I don't know that anybody has ever loved me the way Steven has
00:22:43
[Music] [Music] criminal is produced by Lauren Spore Nadia Wilson and me audio mix by Rob
00:23:03
buyers our intern is matild erfelino Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of
00:23:10
Criminal you can see them at thisiscriminal.com special thanks to documentary photographer Justin Cook we've got his
00:23:19
photographs of Jocelyn Carrie and Frida on our website criminal is recorded in the studios of
00:23:26
North Carolina public radio wunc we're a proud member of radiotopia from PRX a collection of the best podcasts around
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shows like the truth [Music] Story the truth it's a short story and it's funny but it's also a dangerous story
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and the half-life for my computer I could see his eyes were closed Tom he was talking in his sleep can you give
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me some like a sign check beneath your seat ew I used Band-Aid hello what the hell good
00:24:05
afternoon nice to meet you a talking Band-Aid it's America I'm not a creep I'm not a creep I'm not
00:24:13
I'm really not I I value privacy I voted for Edward Snowden I love your writing I
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love love your whole jumpsuit Vibe I love your like awkward but on purpose hair oh that's on accident
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you ever wonder why we're here that's not for us to decide yeah you're right go listen
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special thanks to adzerk for providing their ad serving platform to radiotopia I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal
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[Music] from PRX