00:00:00
Brett Anderson: Generally the way I've drank
Pappy in my life has been in the company of
00:00:08
someone who has a bottle squirreled away
[laughs]. Sometimes under their coat, sometimes under the seat of their car.
Phoebe Judge: Brett Anderson is the restaurant
00:00:16
critic for the Times-Picayune in New Orleans.
Last year, he tried to buy a bottle of bourbon
00:00:22
called Pappy Van Winkle for a wedding gift.
He knew it wasn't going to be easy. Pappy Van
00:00:28
Winkle is one of the hardest bottles of bourbon
in the world to get your hands on. People camp
00:00:34
outside liquor stores when they know the small
annual allotment is going to be released. And
00:00:39
then it's off the shelf in three minutes.
Brett Anderson: I naively thought that I
00:00:44
would be able to just Google it. [Laughs.]
And of course you can't, but that's how
00:00:54
stupid I was going in to all of this.
Phoebe Judge: What do you mean? Why can't
00:00:56
you just Google it? You can Google,
you can get anything, right? Brett Anderson: Well, I thought I'd just end up
on some website and I'd pay some exorbitant amount
00:01:05
for a bottle of Pappy and it'd show up in the
mail. But you can't, I don't believe, just legally
00:01:11
do that [laughs] as a seller. I've been in so
many conversations where people are talking about
00:01:20
prices per bottle for Pappy that I thought that
the marketplace would be more accessible. I found
00:01:30
out that it wasn't that accessible.
Phoebe Judge: You'd think if there was one person who could track down a bottle of
bourbon, it would be a restaurant critic in
00:01:39
New Orleans. But when it comes to Pappy,
it doesn't matter who you are. You can't
00:01:44
get it — unless you're willing to be creative.
Brett Anderson: I just assumed that I would have
00:01:49
to be willing to let it get a little sketchy
if I wanted to get a bottle. Sometimes you
00:01:53
got to meet a guy in a parking lot somewhere.
That's sort of what I figured I'd have to do.
00:02:00
In my head, I never imagined that it would get any
sketchier than that. Even though it's black market
00:02:06
whiskey, it's still whiskey. It's still a legal
product. We're not talking about heroin here.
00:02:10
Phoebe Judge: He asked all over town and
eventually got the number of a guy in Mississippi
00:02:14
who said he had a bottle to sell. He had no idea
who this guy was. And after a few text messages,
00:02:19
the guy just stopped responding.
Brett Anderson: I'm willing to pay an exorbitant amount. In fact, I want that to be
part of the narrative of this bottle, because I
00:02:28
want it to be a special bottle to give to someone.
[Laughs.] You know what I'm saying? And even then,
00:02:35
I don't think I would've been able to get
a bottle had I not had some pretty good
00:02:40
connections in the Southern food world.
Phoebe Judge: Eventually a friend took pity on him and just gave Brett
a bottle from his collection.
00:02:47
In any situation where demand radically
outpaces supply, you might have to meet
00:02:53
a guy in a parking lot. You might spend
two months' rent on a bottle of booze. We want what we want, even if we don't know
why. And with this particular Kentucky bourbon,
00:03:03
laws about how and where we buy liquor have gone
completely out the window, with smugglers making a
00:03:10
fortune, bar owners getting death threats, and in
Kentucky, a small-town crime syndicate busted for,
00:03:17
"Illegal trafficking in spiritous liquor."
It's like Prohibition all over again.
00:03:22
I'm Phoebe judge. This is Criminal.
[Plucky, twangy guitar music.] Basically, if we wanted to find a guy
to talk to us about Kentucky bourbon,
00:03:36
you're the guy to talk to us about it.
Michael Veach: That's what they keep telling me.
00:03:39
Phoebe Judge: This is bourbon historian Michael
Veach. Bourbon has been popular for as long as
00:03:46
I've been of legal drinking age. So I didn't
know there was a time when it was seen as a
00:03:50
cheap drink, something you took down quickly
to get drunk. But then in the late '70s,
00:03:55
things started to change for an unexpected
reason. Scottish distillers started pushing
00:04:02
single-malt scotch onto American consumers.
Michael Veach: Let's face it. As a bulk,
00:04:08
American consumers aren't very bright. So when
they walk into a liquor store and they've been
00:04:14
hearing all about these single malt scotches and
everything, they see this single barrel bourbon,
00:04:18
they say, "Oh, that must be the same type thing."
Yeah. And it's cheaper. It's only $30 a bottle,
00:04:25
where the cheap-single malt scotches
were $50. The expensive ones were $100. So we'll buy that and put it in there. And
the idea behind it was, is that if we could
00:04:37
get people to try it once they'll want to buy
it again, it'll be that good. And it worked.
00:04:42
Phoebe Judge: Today, bourbon is bigger than it's
ever been. Helped along by Prohibition-style bars
00:04:48
that have opened all over the country. And Don
Draper drinking a million old fashions didn't
00:04:53
hurt. Bourbon is having a moment. And right at
the very top of the pyramid is Pappy Van Winkle.
00:05:00
One thing that makes Pappy Van Winkle different is
that it's aged longer, for 15, 20, and 23 years.
00:05:07
Michael Veach: Retail, I think a bottle of
Pappy 20-year-old is going for like $180 a
00:05:14
bottle. And the Pappy 23 is like $230.
Phoebe Judge: Which is a lot of money, but it's not crazy in the world of bourbons.
Michael Veach: Right. But the people that are
00:05:22
selling it, really, illegally, because
unless you have a license to sell liquor,
00:05:27
if you sell a bottle of liquor, it's illegal.
Phoebe Judge: So the people who buy the
00:05:32
$180 bottle and then
Michael Veach: What they call "flipping it." Turn around and sell it to
someone else. They're getting as much as $2,000,
00:05:40
$3,000 for that bottle.
Phoebe Judge: Why? How? Michael Veach: Because people will pay that much
just to say they got a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle.
00:05:51
Because everybody knows it's so hard to get.
Phoebe Judge: It's hard to get because they just
00:05:56
don't make a lot of it. They distribute
about 7,000 cases a year. Compare that with Jim Beam's seven million cases.
Preston Van Winkle: I had a guy called
00:06:04
from Texas claiming to be a billionaire.
Phoebe Judge: This is Preston Van Winkle.
00:06:10
The Pappy in the name Pappy Van
Winkle was his great-grandfather. Preston Van Winkle: And he said
he couldn't even get his hands on
00:06:18
any. He said he'd have an easier time buying
Ferraris and Lamborghinis than a single bottle
00:06:23
of Pappy. That was kind of amusing to me.
Phoebe Judge: Because it really doesn't matter,
00:06:28
right? This is one of the things where it
doesn't matter if you have a billion dollars.
00:06:30
If it's not out there to get, no matter
what money you have, you can't get it. Preston Van Winkle: Exactly.
Julian Van Winkle III:
00:06:41
My grandfather, back before 1900, started
working for a wholesale liquor dealer here
00:06:48
in Kentucky called W.L. Weller.
Phoebe Judge: This is Julian Van Winkle III, Preston's father.
Julian Van Winkle III: And he was about
00:06:55
18 years old when he started. So, gradually worked
his way up in the business and ended up owning the
00:07:01
company with some other gentlemen. That's kind
of where it started. My dad worked for him, and
00:07:06
I worked for my dad, now Preston works for me.
Phoebe Judge: Pappy Van Winkle is now produced
00:07:10
by the Buffalo Trace Distillery, using the Van
Winkle family recipe. Just to do this quickly,
00:07:16
the difference between whiskey and bourbon
is that bourbon has to be made in America
00:07:21
with at least 51% corn. Whiskey doesn't. You
might've heard the expression, "All bourbon
00:07:27
is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon."
There are three things that make Pappy Van Winkle
00:07:33
unique. Most bourbon is made with corn, rye, and
barley, but Pappy Van Winkle is made with corn,
00:07:39
wheat, and barley. That's the first thing.
Second, it's aged in barrels for a very long time.
00:07:47
And third, those barrels have to be
approved by Julian, personally. Julian Van Winkle III: We describe it as it ages
a little more gracefully. So it doesn't pick up
00:07:56
quite as much woody notes, many woody notes
as a rye bourbon does. And it just tastes a
00:08:01
little different. And that seems to be a flavor
profile that a lot of people like, so it was a
00:08:07
fun to age it a little longer, but the depth and
the age definitely is a different product than
00:08:13
something that's younger, obviously. So it was
not easy to get people to try something like that,
00:08:19
but eventually it has caught on. And now there are
a lot of older whiskeys out there on the market.
00:08:26
Michael Veach: Julian will be the first one
to tell you that a lot of his success is blind
00:08:30
luck. Phoebe Judge: Michael Veach.
Michael Veach: Just being in the right place at the — when he first came out with the
Pappy 20 year old, I remembered talking to him
00:08:38
and he's like, "I'm releasing this. I don't know
if it's going to fly or not." He says, "I may
00:08:43
be losing my shirt on this." But he didn't.
Phoebe Judge: Aged bourbons may have caught on,
00:08:48
but the real money being made off Pappy Van
Winkle isn't going to the Van Winkles. It's
00:08:54
in the black market. Some people we talked to
called it, "the secondary market," or "gray
00:08:59
market," because bourbon itself isn't illegal. But
whatever you want to call it, business is booming.
00:09:06
There's a website called Bottle
Blue Book that tracks going rates. It shows that if you had a 2009 bottle of Pappy
23 in your house, you could sell it to someone
00:09:16
else for $2,280. That's an 800% mark-up.
Julian Van Winkle III: People buy it and
00:09:24
hoard it and sell it on the secondary market,
which is not something we promote at all,
00:09:31
but it's just something that happens. It's hard.
There's just no way for us to control that.
00:09:35
Phoebe Judge: I wonder if you have a
lot of people, both of you, I guess, trying to cozy up to you. A lot of old friends
coming out of the woodwork, asking if you have
00:09:43
a bottle laying around.
Preston Van Winkle: That happens from time to time.
Julian Van Winkle III: And they're
00:09:47
our best friends all of a sudden. So it's human
nature and that's the way things are, but it
00:09:52
is kind of humorous to see how that works.
News Anchor: The 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle,
00:10:00
often regarded as one of the finest bourbons
in the world — and one of the hardest to
00:10:04
get — has been stolen. According to the Franklin
County Sheriff, 195 bottles — 65 cases — of the
00:10:12
rare 20-year-old bourbon was stolen from
Buffalo Trace Distillery. The distillery
00:10:17
reported the heist yesterday. [Fades out.]
Phoebe Judge: In October of 2013, 65 cases
00:10:22
went missing from the warehouse. No sign of forced
entry, no security cameras. Detectives had nothing
00:10:28
to work with. The Pappy was just gone. Vanished
without a trace. Rumors started floating around
00:10:35
the bourbon blog scene that the theft was so well
executed it had to have been an inside job. Some
00:10:42
speculated that it could have been orchestrated
by the Van Winkles themselves, a way to keep Pappy
00:10:48
in the news. They nicknamed it Pappy-Gate.
Michael Veach: It really annoys me when I hear
00:10:52
people say, "Well, he just did this for publicity
or something." Because, no, he didn't. He didn't
00:10:58
need the publicity. He doesn't have enough whiskey
to supply his market now, so why would he want
00:11:04
to create an artificial theft shortage to make
it even worse on him? Yeah. Believe me. I've been
00:11:11
in Julian's office. He gets a lot of phone calls
of people complaining because they can't get his
00:11:16
product, and he would love to be able to supply it
to everybody. But that's the problem with bourbon,
00:11:23
and particularly a 20-year-old bourbon. It's not
a product that, "Oh, well you've got a shortage.
00:11:28
I'll make more." Okay, you make more, but it's
not ready for 20 years. You have to be a fortune
00:11:35
teller to know how much you're going to sell.
Phoebe Judge: So you think that anyone who says
00:11:42
Julian did this did because—
Michael Veach: They're just being stupid. Sorry if I offend anyone, but it's the truth.
You're just being stupid if you think that.
00:11:53
Phoebe Judge: But it did drive
demand big time, didn't it? Michael Veach: The demand was already there. All
it did was give him another headache, and believe
00:12:01
me, he was pissed, [laughs] to put it mildly.
Phoebe Judge: It's funny. This coveted bourbon has
00:12:08
become something of a headache for just about
everyone. The Van Winkles, law enforcement,
00:12:14
would-be buyers — but we learned that the most
miserable people in this equation are bartenders.
00:12:21
We talked with a lot of them for this
story, and you could just see their irritation the minute the words "Pappy Van
Winkle" came out of my mouth. They're just
00:12:30
completely sick of people asking for it.
Jeremy Johnson: The first question out
00:12:34
of almost everyone's mouth is,
"Well do you have any Pappy?" Phoebe Judge: This is Jeremy Johnson,
owner of Meta Bar in Louisville.
00:12:39
Jeremy Johnson: And it's really, really
wonderful bourbon. It's absolutely fantastic. But this is so out of hand that
... It's not that it's the best whiskey,
00:12:50
it's that it's the hardest-to-find whiskey.
Phoebe Judge: Because Pappy is so hard to get,
00:12:54
bars can pretty much charge whatever they
can get away with. We heard $60, $70,
00:13:00
$100 for a single two-ounce pour. But
the problem with having it in your bar is that everyone knows you have it in your bar.
Jeremy Johnson: You know, having that stuff on
00:13:10
your shelf on one hand can make you look really
good in certain people's eyes who've been looking
00:13:15
for it. In another way, when they come in kind of
tipsy already, and they're trying to get you to
00:13:21
illegally sell them a half a bottle, and then
they get upset that you're like, "All right,
00:13:26
well if I was going to do that, which I wouldn't,
I would have to sell it to you for this much."
00:13:31
And they're like, "Well, I can't believe this."
It's like, "Well, sitting on my shelf it's worth
00:13:34
so much more than it is in your house. So I
don't understand why you don't get this."
00:13:38
Amy Fisher: Yeah.
Phoebe Judge: Here's Amy Fisher. She's the bar manager at Jeremy's bar.
Amy Fisher: I'd say it's a lot of guys that come
00:13:46
in and they're from New York, let's say, and
it's quite possible that they're going to try
00:13:51
and turn a profit on it or put it in a bar
somewhere and mark up the price a whole lot.
00:13:59
And they get really pushy.
Phoebe Judge: Which is illegal. Jeremy Johnson: Oh, absolutely.
Amy Fisher: Yeah.
00:14:02
Jeremy Johnson: It's interesting, because I feel
like this doesn't happen to me that often, and I
00:14:07
don't think I close as much as you do, but also
what's interesting to me is how pushy they get.
00:14:12
And with Amy, she absolutely ... She helps make
the rules. So she knows exactly what to say and
00:14:19
exactly how to put these guys in their place,
but they can get really pushy and kind of try
00:14:24
to strong arm my other bartenders, and I can't
... I'll get texts — and they know that I'm not
00:14:28
going to do it — but what'll happen is these
douchebags will be like, "Text your boss, text
00:14:34
him right now. Let me hear that your boss doesn't
want you to do it." That's that's when I get those
00:14:39
weird texts at like 12:30 at night or 1 in the
morning, and I'm like, "No, just tell him no,
00:14:43
you want me ... Just put me on the phone."
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Well I think it just gets to
00:14:48
a point and, and I feel like there they're both
bullying and insulting my intelligence at some
00:14:57
point. And so I just spell it out. I'm like, "Hey,
why would I do something illegal for you? Why
00:15:01
would I jeopardize the reputation of this bar? Why
would I jeopardize our liquor license? Why would I
00:15:09
do any of that for you? I don't care about you."
Phoebe Judge: The other problem for bar owners is
00:15:14
what Jeremy described as an arbitrary and
somewhat mysterious allocation process.
00:15:20
Each year, restaurants and bars find out how
many bottles of Pappy Van Winkle they'll be
00:15:25
allowed to purchase, if they can purchase
any at all. It's a pretty opaque system. So
00:15:31
if the bar down the street got six bottles of
Pappy and you got none, it feels personal.
00:15:35
Jeremy Johnson: And so I just got fed up. I saw
... This happened two or three times, where I saw
00:15:41
a restaurant open up and, oh, wow, they managed
to get some Pappy. And again, it's not my biggest
00:15:47
priority, but when you have guests constantly
asking for it, it's a little frustrating to not be
00:15:52
able to get your hands on it. And it just kind of
made me take it ... I think it makes some people
00:15:56
take it more seriously, but for me it made me take
it way less seriously. And I just got so fed up
00:16:03
that I said, "You know what? If we ever actually
get an allocation of this, I'm just going to make
00:16:08
Jello shots with this shit." [Phoebe laughs.]
[Percussive, playful music.] And then we got an allocation and we did it.
[Twangy banjos layer
00:16:19
onto percussive music.]
Phoebe Judge: I guess it was like a "screw you" to the whole wild nutty
Jeremy Johnson: Well, yeah. It's like ... This
00:16:28
is ridiculous. I don't like the way this
is set up. I don't think it's fair. I think it's ridiculous that this bourbon is
so overvalued by so many people. I'm tired
00:16:38
of hearing about it. I'm tired of
Amy Fisher: The cultish fervor. Phoebe Judge: How much were you charging for
one of these Jello shots? Jeremy Johnson: $10.
00:16:44
Phoebe Judge: Which is also kind of a "screw
you" because the other bars are charging like
00:16:49
70 bucks, 80 bucks.
Amy Fisher: Yeah, and people who had never gotten to try Pappy 20 or Pappy 15 got
it. It was in old-fashioned Jello shot form, but
00:16:59
Jeremy Johnson: They got to taste it.
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Jeremy Johnson: It was definitely very tongue
in cheek. I don't see how you could take it so
00:17:04
personally, except that a lot of people did.
Phoebe Judge: So what happens? So it kind
00:17:08
of gets out that you're making Jello
shots with Pappy. What happens next? Jeremy Johnson: I think that's
where the death threats came in.
00:17:18
Like, "Someone should do something really horrible
to your place. Maybe I'll just have to come down
00:17:22
to your bar and burn it down."
Amy Fisher: I actually ... Someone sent me a link to a subreddit.
Jeremy Johnson: Oh yeah. Reddit went nuts.
00:17:29
Amy Fisher: And it was very graphic.
And they were talking about like, "I'm going to find the guy that did this
and I'm going to murder his whole family."
00:17:42
Jeremy Johnson: Didn't they use ... I think I
remember the sentence "piss down his neck."
00:17:48
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Yeah, that was in there.
I wasn't sure if I even wanted to share it
00:17:53
because you have a son.
Jeremy Johnson: Yeah. Amy Fisher: And I was just like,
"I can't even imagine receiving
00:17:58
something like this if I had a child."
Phoebe Judge: The year after the Jello shots,
00:18:02
Jeremy says his Pappy allocation was cut in half. He threw his hands up, said, "What the
hell? I'm bringing back the Jello shots."
00:18:11
And he also decided to sell glasses
of Pappy at cost. No markup. Jeremy Johnson: The Jello shot thing initially
we got death threats for. Once people were a
00:18:20
little more desensitized to it, I think,
when we said we were doing it at cost,
00:18:24
we had a line out the door, and I was handing out
tickets so that everyone would be limited to one.
00:18:30
And people were, like, shaking my hand. And they
said, "Thank you so much. I really never thought
00:18:36
that I would get to try this stuff."
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Phoebe Judge: He'll find out this month what his
2016 allocation is, if he gets anything at all.
00:18:45
Back in Frankfort, Kentucky, a year and a
half had passed since the theft of the 65
00:18:50
cases of Pappy. Detectives finally
got a break in the case last March, when someone sent a message to their "Text
a Tip" line. The anonymous tip was very
00:19:00
specific. It said a man named Toby Kurtsinger
had barrels of bourbon hidden behind his house.
00:19:06
When detectives reached Kurtsinger's property,
they said they could smell the bourbon from where
00:19:11
they were standing.
[Bouncy music.] Kurtsinger was arrested. As word of his
arrest traveled around town, all kinds of
00:19:19
people just started showing up at the sheriff's
office and coming forward with their stories.
00:19:24
"I bought nine bottles," "I bought nine cases."
One man who bought a lot of bottles, gathered
00:19:30
them all up and had his lawyer deliver them to
the sheriff's office. It did turn out to be an
00:19:36
inside job. Kurtsinger worked at Buffalo Trace and
had very easy access to Pappy Van Winkle. And he
00:19:42
was running an elaborate bootleg whiskey business,
directing eight accomplices to steal and sell not
00:19:48
only the Pappy, but also an entire pallet of Eagle
Rare bourbon, and many barrels of Wild Turkey
00:19:55
over a period of many years. Here's Sheriff Pat
Melton on the Frankfort local news last year.
00:20:01
Pat Melton: This is probably
the tip of the iceberg. Reporter: A Franklin County grand jury
indicted nine people on a charge of
00:20:07
engaging in organized crime. Melton said the
attorney general's cyber crimes unit analyzed
00:20:12
phones and computers. He said they turned
up communications about selling the bourbon
00:20:16
and involved, of all things, a softball league.
Pat Melton: And how they interconnected throughout
00:20:22
the state, was friends through softball.
Reporter: Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Zach
00:20:27
Becker said so far investigators have recovered
bottles and barrels of bourbon from Franklin,
00:20:31
Scott, Harrison, and Laurel counties. Melton
believes there's more bourbon out there.
00:20:36
Phoebe Judge: We tried to speak with Sheriff
Melton and with Zachary Becker about the
00:20:40
case. Both declined. Although Becker said
they're close to reaching a negotiation.
00:20:46
Julian and Preston Van Winkle didn't want
to comment on that theft either. I tried.
00:20:51
Julian Van Winkle III: Well, we really
don't like to talk about this theft at all. Just don't even want to bring it up,
but obviously weren't happy about it. But
00:20:59
it's just something that happened and we're going
to move on. But it's too bad. But you know, it's
00:21:07
still an ongoing deal. So we just really don't
Preston Van Winkle: Can't really comment on it too
00:21:12
much since it's an ongoing investigation.
Phoebe Judge: Last month we searched for a
00:21:18
bottle of Pappy here in North Carolina.
Not to buy it. We just wanted to taste it in a bar. After all this, we couldn't
imagine how anything could be that good.
00:21:28
We eventually found a bartender who had some, not
for sale. But he agreed to let us come and try it.
00:21:35
It's good. There's no doubt about that,
but I didn't buy the sip I tasted, which maybe made it taste better.
Michael Veach: It's a very good
00:21:44
bourbon. It's worth drinking.
Phoebe Judge: Michael Veach. Michael Veach: Is it worth the prices
that people are doing? Like I said,
00:21:51
not to me. There are many bourbons out there
that I consider just as good, that are readily
00:21:58
available that don't cost an arm and a leg.
Phoebe Judge: So if someone said to you,
00:22:03
"Here's a glass of Pappy, and here's a
glass of Buffalo Trace Heritage. Pick one." Would you go for the Pappy?
Michael Veach: It would really depend
00:22:13
upon a lot of different factors. The
first question is, are these free? Phoebe Judge: They're free.
Michael Veach: Okay. Well, if we're talking free,
00:22:22
I will go for ... I'd say, "Okay, I'll take both."
[Laughs.] People always ask me, what's my favorite
00:22:29
bourbon? And my standard answer is, "What are you
buying me?" Because my favorite is free bourbon.
00:22:34
[Laughs.]
Phoebe Judge: Criminal is produced by Lauren Spohrer
and me. Audio mix by Rob Byers.
00:22:56
This episode was produced with help from Gravy, a
podcast from the Southern Foodways Alliance.
00:23:01
Special thanks to Tina Antolini, Alice Wilder, and
Gary Crunkleton. Julienne Alexander makes original
00:23:09
illustrations for each episode of Criminal.
You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're
00:23:15
on Facebook and Twitter, @CriminalShow.
Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud
member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collective of the
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13 best podcasts around. Radiotopia from PRX is
supported by the Knight Foundation and MailChimp,
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celebrating creativity, chaos and teamwork.
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
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Jingle: Radiotopia. From PRX.
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