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[Music] crime junkie hi crime junkies I'm Ashley flowers and if you're watching this
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you'll notice I'm not in my normal place I'm in a very special place with a very
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special guest most of you will recognize her from her work she's multi-talented in many ways from being an Oscar and
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Tony nominated actress to an author singer songwriter and you are now starring in Netflix's woman of the hour
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and it is your directorial debut Anna Kendrick you guys and for my daughter who was giving me a guilt trip before I
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left she would think I was so cool that I was meeting poppy oh oh my God I love that wait how old how old is she oh
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she's two and a half so oh okay so this is a tricky age because um when parents are like oh my gosh look it's Poppy and
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they introduce a child to me it's like floods of Tears immediately because I don't have pink skin and pink hair and
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it's it's awful they're like that's not poppy I'm just going to let her listen she's going to be thrilled great great
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great great so I'm so excited first of all women of the hour was incredible I got a little sneak peek I truly loved it
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start to finish well I feel like a loser fan girl in in my merch right now but it's such cute merch like I get a lot of
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merch and it's usually like oh you ruined a perfectly good shirt this is so good this is so cool anyway sorry go
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ahead thank you well so yeah speaking of being a crime junkie uh like how did you
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get to this place because this is a little bit of a departure you've done some like serious stuff but I mean like
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this is like serious in like a serious way no I was like I I don't even think I've ever been in a movie that was this
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genre or this kind of uh in of a movie the Thriller stuff that you've done has still been kind of light-hearted yeah
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yeah and I am very aware that um most people know me from uh one of a couple of like light-hearted musical franchises
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so um yeah poppy or Pitch Perfect or whatever um and so yeah I I I even got some not push back but uh questioning
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the decision like I I sent um a filmmaker friend the script and I was like do you think this is crazy for me
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to do um I was mostly thinking about hey here's the story here's the very limited
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budget and time frame that we have and I would be jumping on to this movie I'd be
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pitching myself to direct this movie and it's starts in 6 weeks so um do you think that's just a terrible idea and
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I'm just setting myself up for failure and um you know he he was like um well I it's a lot but mostly he was like I
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confess I've been hoping you would direct something for a long time and I'm surprised that it's this really and he
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was like I think you know once I got it further into the script I could see a lot of theme around moving through the
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world as a woman and trying to stay safe that makes sense to me but you know he was really kind of referencing the
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opening scene of the movie which was interesting because I love that scene and I fought for that scene which I
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heard which I I'm so glad that you did because like I I can see why many people would want to remove it but I think it
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takes away from what the story is yeah yeah and and and don't get me wrong I Ood why he was going this because again
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it's it's not really what I'm known for and it's not the kinds of film sets that
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I've been on a lot but you know I think that even my relationship to True Crime really changed um a a few years ago um
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cuz I went through something really um shocking and traumatic for me um and I I really couldn't figure out what had
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happened and you know I don't know if you relate to this but I'm sure many listeners will that you really beat
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yourself up and go like how did I not see like how did I not know that that was coming how did I not get myself out
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of that situation sooner you know all the ways that we really put all that shame on
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ourselves and I told him I was like I know that this isn't necessarily in my professional wheel house but this
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unfortunately feels like familiar territory to me and that question of whose shame is
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this how much of your shame do I have to absorb here before I'm In Harm's Way I think that question hangs over a lot of
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Our Lives more often than we realize and that felt Central to the kind of emotional center of the story um and
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I've always been kind of I don't know I guess maybe I would consider myself to have been a more
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casual consumer of True Crime um and then when you know some things went down in in a long-term relationship that I
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was in um I really I really got kind of obsessed and uh and I think that there's
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a way in which we can kind of sublimate our own stuff um by feeling like if I can just get to the bottom of why that
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guy or that person did that thing maybe I could uncover some Universal human truth and I could make sure that I never
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found myself in a situation like that again and I don't know how true that is but it really changed how I consumed
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True Crime um but uh at any rate you know the subject matter of the movie is like really gripping but I I also hoped
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to be bringing in some of that emotional DNA to the entire movie which you did a
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great job of you said it's outside of your whale house but girl it is not outside of your whale house you did
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incredible oh that's so awesome and I feel like I just like my crime junkie brain just like jumped right in but do
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you actually for those who don't know what women of the hours course gosh do you want to tell them like what the
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story is based on yes so um it's funny on other Outlets I'm sort of more vague but I guess I don't I don't have like
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obviously we're talking abouta like welcome to the show yeah so um so it is based on the story of uh Rodney alala um
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who was a serial killer in the 1970s and in the middle of you know really being able to operate without consequence for
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over a decade unbelievable he went on the show The Dating Game and won the dating game and um so that piece of you
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know the story that dating game piece is really used you know as a kind of framing device for the movie because it
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it's really evocative of that question of like who can you trust and who's really behind the curtain you know how
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much can you really know about a person before you know that you're safe we have
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a crime junky life rule that you never know anyone ever like truly girl tell me about it um and yeah I mean I sort of
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describe it as the story of Rodney alala but it is really meant to be the story of the impact that he had on the people
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that were unfortunate enough to come across him yeah um so the aim was always to really Center the women St the
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women's stories yeah and I think you did a really amazing job of that and you had
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this um this scene like I was like crawling out of my skin when you the scene where you're like actually on the
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date with him and you're walking to the car and it's the whole number scene where he's like tell me your number
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again like why can't you remember and I was I was just my husband like didn't quite get why I was freaking out so much
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that's so interesting oh he and I talk about this all the time and the way you were talking about earlier I'm like you
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Eric you he's this like six foot6 dude and I'm like you move in the world a way that like I cannot yeah and you that you
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cannot I appreciate that you empathize with being a woman but you can't you have no idea what it feels like that
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when I'm going on a walk I'm not enjoying the walk because I'm constantly like looking here and looking there and
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that car passed me twice and here's the license flate number like it's just completely different but the the the way
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that I thought you did so well in capturing just the uncomfortable position I think nearly every woman has
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probably been in at some point where it's like I don't feel safe I don't feel good like why can't but you don't also
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don't feel comfortable saying that yes and you're not totally sure if you're making it up like oh maybe I'm just
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being paranoid and the way that we kind of second guess ourselves and and try to
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just sort of like be pleasing and I'll just get myself out of this situation um God that's so interesting because there
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are several moments in the movie that while we were shooting one of the men on set would sort of say like hey should we
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do another take of that like I I I don't know that it's super clear like what's happening in this scene and I would sort
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of be like well women are going to know what's happening in this scene um and I think most and I think most men will you
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know follow what's happening in the movie but yeah there's like 20% of men who don't follow what's happening that's
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fine with me you know I would much rather it probably isn't for them like don't be the creepy man that's your own
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lesson and it feels like there's this kind of secret language of women and part of that is it's a [ __ ] secret
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yeah so wait am I allowed to curse oh yeah for sure it's it's serious right like [ __ ] I don't know um so you know
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sometimes that means that um maybe it won't be a thousand per clear to some men like what's what what the
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Dynamics are at play but I I think it's very very clear to women but I think that's like the beautiful part about you
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having stepped in the role as director is H having a woman be the L like the lens through the story and telling it
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from your perspective and being able to like hone in on those like nuances that I don't know that someone else would
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have captured and I just thought you did it in like such a truly incredible way my gosh that's so ni the nicest thing
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how did uh so how did you decide that you wanted to direct something because this is your first I me you came out
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with a banger but um I I mean I always feel a little embarrassed saying this but I think I had told myself I mean
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certainly I told everyone around me and I had told myself I just wasn't interested in directing um because I
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think that it's vulnerable to want something and you know you might not get it or you might get it and you might
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fail and so I just was constantly telling myself like oh I don't know God directors are crazy I'm not doing that
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um and I really found myself um getting kind of obsessed with this script um and
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maybe getting a little controlling you know cuz I was attached as a as an actor for about two years and I was just sort
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of like okay let me know when the movie goes years yeah yeah oh God that's so common yeah like you just sort of like
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attach yourself to things and you're like well let me know if it comes together um and and then the other thing
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that happens is occasionally something that's been moving really really slow for a long time will out of nowhere very
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quickly be coming together at lightning speed and um basically going okay well we got the money together and we have a
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window that we could shoot it in and if we don't if we miss that window we might
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it might fall apart again and um at that point we didn't have a director and so we kind of scrambled and we were trying
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to find someone and we certainly weren't looking at first-time directors it was like well we have3 dollar and a roll of
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duct tape and um it needs to happen right now so we were really Mo mostly trying to find like pretty experienced
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people and I guess I oh God I feel weird saying this but I think that I also started to feel like wait I'm sorry I've
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been thinking about this movie for two years and someone's G come on and like tell me what the movie is for and I'm
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going to be like you just got here um and you know there were also certain details from the true story that felt
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really important to me and I had always thought like well if it were my movie this is how I would do it but it's not
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my movie that's okay and you know very quickly I got to do like a new draft with the the screenwriter and make some
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changes and um I just uh was a hard conversation being like I want it oh it was terrifying oh my God I I mean I
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think like even in in the pitch that I did I kept saying like if you guys don't think I'm the right person that's so
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fine it's totally fine um I just want to do what's best for the movie uh it's it's okay like if you don't think I'm
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ready I that please tell me what people think a girl boss is is like just coming
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in and like owning the room and what being a girl boss is is really that is just being like listen I'm like listen
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here's the deal here's like what I bring to the table here well I was I was even
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going like here's what I think I bring to the table here are the areas of deficit like that I have like I want to
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be honest like like why project false confidence because then I was like well also if you hire me it means like you
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have to support me cuz I was honest you know I love it yeah so how did how did the story find you originally well okay
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so uh it originally found me because it was the script just got sent to me and and I had that moment that maybe a lot
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of the listeners have where you go oh right this guy he was uh yeah he was a serial killer and he went on The Dating
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Game and that's like mostly what you remember what you know about it and you know obviously that is a fascinating
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True Crime Story So I was interested from the get-go and then when I read the screenplay it was just it was it was
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really beautiful I know that's a feels like a strange thing to say but there was so much Beauty in the
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world of these women and you really fell in love with them in you know a very limited window really you know I mean
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some of the actresses in the film they have a very limited window of screen time to make you fall in love with them
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and be absolutely invested in what is going to happen to them and it I'm just blown away by the writing and by um the
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actresses in the film um cuz you are so desperate for each one of them to come out of it on the other side
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and you know the movie is like chilling but it's it's heartbreaking too I there's um one scene in particular when
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you talk about them having such a short time to make an impact where this girl's
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like unpacking her new apartment and I remember like just feeling so much like God I remember being like you know my
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very first place and you're in a new city and you feel like such a like a big kid with your whole life in front of you
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and I remember that just being like the emotion as I was watching that and being
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like Oh God so even in like you just get like a brief moment with each of those women and and it was just done so well
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yeah and you know I I'm sure that um the listeners are very very into as they should be like the details and accuracy
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factual accuracy and there are so many details in the movie that are lifted straight from the the true story but you
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know just the way you're talking even about that scene with the apartment you know um it just reminds me that part of
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the objective was also to give each woman that we meet like quite a different personality and quite a
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different kind of entry point to how they meet this man how they interact with this man because again like
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emotionally it felt important to kind of establish it wouldn't matter what your personality is and how you meet a person
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or how careful you are or how sweet you are or how tough you try to seem like none of that guarantees your protection
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from someone if they're determined to harm you yeah um and even though there I think there are really really
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interesting things in the movie around like the ways that some of these women manage to
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survive it also feels like an exercise in at least putting the shame where it belongs which is in the hands of a
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person who's harmful um and never I remember actually at one point oh my God I forgot about this um well this is
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maybe a little spoilery but um but also already know the story um that uh you know I play the The Bachelorette
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who's uh on The Dating Game and um and so uh I survive and I remember at one point one of The Producers asking me if
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my character should have like some kind of really clever plan that got her out of danger and I was like you know in
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most movies I would say sure blind luck isn't a great way for your heroine to kind of you know survive a situation but
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it would also feel like a disservice to all the really brilliant women who didn't survive you know sometimes it is
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just blind luck well and and and the truth of it is he did go for so long and he was successful at taking the lives of
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so many different women that to say oh like this person to your oh she just needed to outsmart him like it's it's
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the one person in the parking lot who just like scares him away and you're like and you just thank your lucky stars
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like why me and and not the other person completely completely wild so you said that your true crime
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ation you had been into it before but always like like for me I always say like crime junkies are born not made
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like I since I was little like did when did it start for you like gosh yeah I guess I can't really remember a time
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that it wasn't there uh I mean you know this isn't really true crime per se but I remember sitting in like the dentist's
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office and they would have those books about like um like dis like natural disasters with the Titanic or something
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like there is just something about um the the Grim and the maob that is that is always kind of called to me um and so
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yeah that's always sort of been there lurking and then it you know ended up being something else for me you um wrote
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in your uh your book about you being in New York for the first time which like when you were like a kid and I'm like
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you were like Towing the line you were about to be your own True Crime Story like running around the city of New York
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like how you were like what 10 I know I know I know I know I know I know I know like my yeah my parents cuz I I I was a
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stubborn little child and I was like I want to be an actress and I want to audition for Broadway shows and you know
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they worked full-time jobs and so they they drove me to New York for a couple auditions and then were're like girl if
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you really want to do this we like we this is you need to figure it out so my brother and I he was like 2 years older
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than me um he uh he and I would go down on like a Greyhound bus and like just audition for stuff in in New York City
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um which yeah I I I don't know there is a like a an overconfidence and a trust there that I think also comes from
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growing up in a place where I grew up in Maine and you know like no one locked their doors at night when I moved to LA
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God I really am like a walking True Crime this is awful no when I moved to LA my roommates were constantly having
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to remind me to lock the door I just wouldn't lock the door just W yeah just wide open cuz also in Maine if you lock
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your car door at night it'll freeze over so like we don't lock anything girl I mean I lived in like in Indiana
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and it's not wild out there but like I know that's crazy we had ice that's really crazy it's C like but I think
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about that all the time when you like to go back to what we were just talking about like I remember I went to Vegas
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when I was like 22 and like me and my roommate just like we like didn't want to pay for a c so we
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like caught a ride with a guy who had a hook for a hand and I'm like oh my God you're not just True Crime you're like a
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creepy ghost story that's like a classic campfire ghost story I don't know but yeah I'm like walking down alleys and
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it's like the stuff that it truly is luck like sometimes it is truly just luck that saves you it's a miracle we're
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both here today no completely that's absolutely right so how did you were there certain things that you pulled
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from your own life like situations you've been in where you felt like that or like how did you even begin to
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prepare for this character yeah so I mean there are things in the movie that are like there's a couple little Easter
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eggs but uh you know for example my character there's that scene in the opening when we first meet my character
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where I'm having like a very bad audition and um the casting directors are yeah they're and they were so funny
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they were so wonderful on the day and while we were shooting it I was like hey will you guys do this like I we just say
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these couple lines with me I'm probably going to cut it but I don't know it might be interesting um where they ask
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me if I'm willing to do nudity and then this guy makes a very like very specific
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and weird remark about my body and that happened to me verbatim when I was 19 no
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yes verbatim in an audition yeah crazy absolutely crazy so there's also a degree which I I want the version on
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Netflix where like it pops up be like actually happened yeah yeah yeah oh my God yeah
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um no but like there's also a degree to which I really had fun making a a a period piece and like you know playing
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up the kind of 70s of it all but also like some of this stuff happened not that long ago you know like some of the
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little like juicy little tidbits where you think well no one would say that now and I know you know n 19 was not recent
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for me but um yeah it was not like relegated to the 19s like it was five minutes
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ago holy crap yeah there's a there's also like this is dumb but there's a sign uh that's on the door when I'm
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about to go out on stage that says like check your lipstick and that like that's
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backstage it at talk shows that stuff of like last chance to check your makeup that's like written under the mirror
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that's right before you go out into like live TV so yeah just like a bunch of little Easter eggs like that I how do
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people know that though like if they don't know the biz like this is all The Insider baseball I want to know well I
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guess like you know you mostly get away with it by not saying it but now I'm saying it on a big podcast so I'm
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obsessed what are you going to do what are you going to do I'm obsessed stay mad so how do you when you think about
00:23:45
being in something like this for was it really six weeks like Yeah well yeah I mean I was like thinking about the
00:23:52
character for 2 years but then like was oh God I'm responsible for all of it for
00:23:58
like 6 weeks and then um and then you have about 6 weeks of like uh hard prep um so you're like finding the locations
00:24:07
and um and actually like really mapping out the movie and then we filmed for 24 days which is not enough time oh my God
00:24:15
you did that whole thing in 24 days yeah yeah yes that's intense it was a lot it
00:24:22
was a lot it makes me hot just thinking about like how much we were running around is that normal no no my God no um
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I mean it's normal for like teeny movies that take place in one location but uh yeah it it was a lot but I also I think
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I am like maybe a little bit of an adrenaline junkie because I would I was like oh my favorite animal is me when
00:24:45
I'm when the schedule is slightly behind where like the way that like I get a weird Rush of dopamine where I'm like
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we're going to we're going to finish this day we're going to get every shot that we need on this day God damn it I'm
00:24:59
so it's like very exciting how did you think about coming off that and like but and more specifically like even out of
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the space like cuz you're kind of living in like a dark world for a while yeah do
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you take a break from it do you have like a true crime detox or you are you ready to like jump back into the next
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True Crime project God I I think that you know like when I would go home for the day I would probably just put
00:25:25
something like Mindless on uh on on YouTube like something like upbeat or something what's your mindless what is
00:25:32
your guilty pleasure right now this this is very silly but I think that at the time that um we were filming the movie I
00:25:42
Didn't Know of the try guys but when we were filming the movie The try guys had like a infidelity Scandal thing they're
00:25:49
like YouTubers I was like what's the try guys I that's that was my point and so I
00:25:53
was like wait what is this and I like watched a couple videos and I was like I don't get it but then
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but then I started watching it and it was like okay this is fine this is just like guys being silly and I don't know
00:26:04
one of them like cheated on their wife so [ __ ] that guy but you know I don't know whatever so I would just like put
00:26:09
that on his background noise to fall asleep too the try guys are putting you to sleep at night I know I know it's
00:26:14
like the most random Rabbit Hole to just be like fine this cuz I I like can't even think about like finding like oh
00:26:21
what's my nighttime you know Comfort show I was like this this is it I don't have I know a lot of people they say it
00:26:27
is like a com thing to watch the same thing over and over again it drives me not I can't I can't watch the same thing
00:26:32
over again not even like the office you don't have like a show like that that you're like yeah yeah yeah I'll just
00:26:35
throw it on no I think I'm broken I don't I don't know like everyone's like yeah I've just got my I don't wait do
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you watch any movies like more than once cuz Rebel Wilson has this thing she has
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never seen a movie more than once never not once and she says her favorite movie
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is a leue of their own and she has seen it twice in her life that's her favorite
00:26:55
movie that's crazy I think I've seen Maybe some movies well my like daughter's movies aside I've seen movies
00:27:02
I like like tops two times I cannot rewat like I know it's going to there's no someone needs to study your brain and
00:27:10
Rebel Wilson's brain and and figure out what's happening there cuz honestly I kind of wish I was more like that like I
00:27:17
wish I was more like yeah I'd want to watch something new something new and then there's just like a laziness thing
00:27:22
where you're like oh whatever I'll just I've heard it's like a comfort thing like you know what to expect like in a
00:27:27
world where everything crazy and you got ziling things coming at you like the comfort of like knowing exactly what's
00:27:32
coming next I guess that's probably it I I don't know for me it might just be down the-middle laziness cuz I'm like I
00:27:39
I just can't think of anything else to watch so I'll just rewatch 30 Rock fine oh I love 30 Ro I know it's so
00:27:44
good okay that's fair I uh my I'm like very into I always said I was not a reality TV person but I've like doing
00:27:51
the Love is Blind thing right now it's so good are you watching this season okay I just started it oh my God I'm
00:27:57
like I think I'm I I'm till I got to like the first reveal the like Taylor and what's his face I don't know
00:28:08
whatever I can't even look at your facial expression CU it's going to get literally like I was texting Kate
00:28:14
nonstop I was like I felt I was like live tweeting Love is Blind but only to her totally you got to have that friend
00:28:19
though to be like I'm going to watch this thing and you have to watch this thing so that we can text about it oh I
00:28:25
love it so do you think you'll do another True Crime um I would I mean I would be really really open to it I I
00:28:32
think that um it's really fertile ground um psychologically um so I don't know well as I'm saying it
00:28:44
I'm also like I've been known as like musical Sally for the last decade so wouldn't be it certainly wouldn't be the
00:28:54
worst thing in the world for me to be like oh no oh no I'm pigeon hold as like the girl that would be fine with me cuz
00:28:59
I don't I think at this point you can't be pigeon hole I think this whole thing you like proved that you can do whatever
00:29:03
you want which is like the best place to be I wouldn't mind I mean I um I really
00:29:09
found it rewarding to to dig in um to the case you know I was really really fortunate to have um Matt Murphy who was
00:29:21
the prosecutor in Rodney's um 2010 retrial um as a resource he was so so generous like he
00:29:29
was not we did not have the money to pay him so he was not getting paid um but he
00:29:34
really made himself available and and not just as a kind of factual resource which he often was but there were times
00:29:44
where just speaking to him was so emotionally grounding because again he's someone who really obviously prioritizes
00:29:53
victims first and you know even just speaking to him would kind of like like sometimes like really reenter me uh on
00:30:01
what was important about telling the story and um and Matt introduced me to detective well now the honorable Craig
00:30:08
Robison but at the time detective Craig Robison who um I mean was the guy who cared enough about what was happening to
00:30:17
actually take it seriously cuz as I'm sure you know um as I know you know uh really the story of Rodney alala is a
00:30:27
story of law enforcement negligence and incompetence and it makes my body temperature go up every time I even
00:30:34
think about it like it it like really really makes me so upset um and I think even speaking to
00:30:44
Craig Robison and Matt Murphy it was kind of Illuminating for me because I mean you think about okay a
00:30:52
serial killer who's been operating for over a decade this young detective comes on the scene and kind of saves the day
00:30:59
and the prosecutor that keeps him behind bars and connects all the dots and you know realizes that he's a Serial
00:31:06
murderer it's kind of like a readymade Hollywood Story but we don't really get into that
00:31:13
in the movie because it would also feel really emotionally dishonest because when I walk away from you know
00:31:22
months of research about this case the feeling that I'm left with is heartbreak and rage really rage um so they got to
00:31:34
be the heroes they were the heroes they were and that matters but because so many people failed before them that's
00:31:41
right and they're just as angry about that as anybody and that's where like I'll always say I mean there's the
00:31:47
really good ones can recognize and acknowledge when there are bad ones and I I even had a moment where I was like
00:31:54
oh no like Matt has really been so so helpful to me and I am not sure that he knows that like the movie is not pro law
00:32:06
enforcement and I was like oh my God oh my God is that going to like bother him or hurt his feelings or is he going to
00:32:11
be angry and then I mean he just put out a a book and actually one of the chapters is about Rodney and um yeah and
00:32:19
he's actually going off more about law enforcement than I am in the movie so yeah we can appreciate that for sure I
00:32:25
love it and you said Matt didn't make any money but like I was surprised to learn you didn't make any money on this
00:32:29
either oh yeah yeah um I mean you know I think that you know we're we're both sort of steeped in some really valid
00:32:38
ethical questions around True Crime and um and I it believe me this was never um
00:32:48
a money-making Venture for me um cuz you know all the resources went to actually
00:32:52
just making the movie but it wasn't until um the uh Toronto Film Festival is where the the movie premiered and it's
00:33:01
this big um film festival for uh someone to buy movies and that is where you know
00:33:09
eventually Netflix bought the movie um but it wasn't until like the week before Tiff that I thought oh oh the movie's
00:33:21
going to make money like I I was just so I like let me know when the movie happens to
00:33:29
like oh God I'm responsible for this and then I was just making the movie making
00:33:32
the movie and we just barely made the deadline to get into Tiff and then it was like oh oh there's like money going
00:33:39
to be exchanging hands and yeah like I sort of asked myself the question of like do you feel gross about this and I
00:33:48
did and so uh yeah so I'm not making money off of the the movie the the money is going to or has gone to um rain and
00:34:00
to the National Center for victims of violent crime which was uh a charity that Matt Murphy um recommended to me um
00:34:08
we've done work with both of them they're like both incredible organizations I was going to ask you
00:34:12
like how you got connected with them but that's perfect yeah yeah um so yeah I think that they uh it's still a
00:34:20
complicated area but that yeah that felt like certainly like the least to that I
00:34:26
should do well I I like I it's a huge it's a huge thing to do and it's like it's a it's a weird place to navigate
00:34:34
and like I mean as someone who's like still trying to figure it out I think that I think these stories have to be
00:34:42
told and I think that there's probably a better way than it's been done in the past right and it's like how how do we
00:34:51
how do we do right by the people who are in them how do we it's a there's a lot of a of heavy
00:34:58
questions um that I don't know it's not black and white ethics is never black and white it's a little gray and it's
00:35:04
yeah and you know again uh like when I've shown the movie to friends there are immediately like a
00:35:12
handful of questions that they want to know like wait wait wait did that really happen did that really happen like you
00:35:17
know one of the ones that comes up a lot is like wait was he really working at the Los Angeles Times in like 1977 and
00:35:22
you're like yep with his real name with his real name like he' been in jail for horrible crimes already at that point
00:35:30
and they you know constantly let him out really based on Vibes by the way um cuz
00:35:36
boards were just like yeah I don't know he seems chill I think he's reformed unbelievable and then yeah he like you
00:35:45
know he changed his name in New York for a while but then um he like got a job at
00:35:49
the Los Angeles Times under his real name so yeah so the point being there's um there's certain things that are like
00:35:57
oh my god did that actually happened and then yeah there's a degree to which I you know the names of uh a lot of the
00:36:03
sort of players in the in the movie are changed as kind of a nod to the idea that like I couldn't possibly capture
00:36:11
the the essence of a real person if I had 100 years let alone a 90-minute movie and you know as always the idea
00:36:19
was mostly to be trying to reach a kind of larger emotional truth about the danger that we walk around with and all
00:36:28
the ways we try to stay safe and there are things in the movie that frankly feel like they could save a life you
00:36:37
know I I I was watching that other Netflix show um worst X ever and I was literally like oh my God no do what
00:36:44
Moone KO did like please please and she she survived she she's okay the lady I was yelling at the TV as though I could
00:36:51
like crawl through the screen and back through time to oh my God it's just G it's so stressful um but I I think there
00:36:59
are like these tidbits that we get from these stories that remain in our subconscious and um and can Aid us in
00:37:07
our most challenging moments I think it's you know you talked about earlier trying to like understand and can I you
00:37:15
know can I gather all these tools to protect myself and I I've always viewed it as I think I read it in like Tina fa
00:37:21
book she was talking about if I can be so hypervigilant like surely statistically just won't happen to me
00:37:27
like if I'm always on the way and I think that's a little bit of like the way that I have viewed it the way I know
00:37:32
a lot of our listeners view it is these stories often happen to us and so if we can you know and it's not it's not the
00:37:41
shame and it's not them but it's like unfortunately I live in this world where I have to you know hold the keys a
00:37:46
certain way and check in my backseat and look here and do all the things and if I
00:37:50
can pick up all the tips and tricks maybe I'm like this much like less likely to have that happen I'll just
00:37:55
I'll take that 2% even if it's only % cuz yeah absolutely no um the hypervigilant thing is fascinating
00:38:03
because uh again I I think the case that really um captured me when I was coming
00:38:11
out of this really abusive situation was the Chris Watts case um don't get me started on family annihilators I oh my
00:38:21
God I'm about to like I it's like my life dream to like just fund a study at some University because I cannot
00:38:27
wrap my head and I I feel like not nearly enough has been done to understand like how someone goes and
00:38:34
it's not zero to 60 it's not but it feels like it I mean uh yeah unfortunately I could sit here and talk
00:38:41
about Chris Boss all day but we'll just very briefly like the more that I try every transcript I read every recording
00:38:50
every text message that he ever sent anybody that's ever been made available to the public I just it's frustrating be
00:38:56
I mean obviously it's more than frustrating it's enraging but did you get really sucked into that one I I it
00:39:04
became it became crazy I forgot that I actually like forgot that I went from being kind of a casual True Crime person
00:39:13
to like obsessed and I was reading an old journal and I mean old it it this was again right after I left my abusive
00:39:22
relationship it it like coincided with when I learned about the Chris Watts case and I was even aware at the time
00:39:29
cuz I wrote it down like oh I I I think I'm sublimating My Own trauma and just trying to figure out what happened in
00:39:38
Chris watt's mind so that I can understand what the [ __ ] happened here W because how did you go from the most
00:39:45
loving the most wonderful and to so abusive making me feel crazy all these things overnight like what happened and
00:39:55
one of the endless frustrating things about the Chris Watts case is I I I don't think he would be able to give you
00:40:03
Insight if you put him in therapy for the next 50 years like I I just he is so asleep to himself and and and his family
00:40:13
suffer the consequences of that yeah I I think there are certain people who just will put themselves
00:40:21
above everyone but here's the rub in my opinion yeah I think that a guy like Chris Watts and a guy like my ex I think
00:40:31
they genuinely experience themselves to be the victims like I don't think that they're like ah screw it I'm going to
00:40:39
kill my family I don't care I think that they're in such a state of like this kind of toddler esque Terror that
00:40:49
they're just like no I just I'm in a bad situation and I don't want to feel bad this feels so bad that I'm allowed to do
00:40:54
whatever I have to do because this feeling is so bad and I'm such a victim here and the idea of like being caught
00:41:00
in an affair makes you feel so bad you annihilate your family like I oh my god do you think it's the idea of
00:41:07
being caught or that they're in the way of what he thinks is happiness I know that there's different the believe I
00:41:13
know there's different theories about I believe you've been down the I I don't know my theory is that it was less like
00:41:21
no you're standing in the way of what I want and so I'm going to wipe you off the face of the Earth it was more like I
00:41:28
need to be seen as a good guy and a guy who leaves his family is not a good guy but a guy who whose family disappears is
00:41:36
still a good guy and I can't be the guy that had an affair on my pregnant wife that is so intolerable to me that again
00:41:47
everything that was his his shame around having an affair which by the way that is an [ __ ] move but like so what dude
00:41:55
like so so so white so shannan's friends think you're a dick so what like she would have gone on to live a beautiful
00:42:04
life it's oh my God and it's all just like oh I don't want to deal with the shame of people knowing that I'm not a
00:42:11
good guy so I'm enacting that shame on my family is it do you think it's a little bit of when you care more about
00:42:20
what the world thinks of you than what you think of yourself because I mean because I can't imagine like I can't
00:42:25
imagine having to live with that even if everyone thought I was amazing I couldn't live with myself but he would
00:42:31
rather live with live with the lie I mean I I I think it's just like well I did I think from somebody like that from
00:42:40
many people who've committed terrible crimes I think it's possible that their perspective
00:42:47
is I would have been such a victim and almost like I did what I had to do to quote survive MH um
00:42:57
but to them someone thinking that you're kind of a dick who cheated on his wife is akin to
00:43:04
Annihilation and I mean I think that sort of plays out in the movie like Rodney was diagnosed with a number
00:43:13
of kind of contradictory disorders over the years by different doctors um again I can't know him and I'm not really
00:43:20
[ __ ] interested but I don't know gun to my head I'd say just psychopathy and sexual sat ISM and that's really just an
00:43:28
accident right and statistically we're not that likely to meet an honest to God psychopath we are incredibly likely to
00:43:37
meet people who are emotionally incapable of dealing with their own pain and their own shame and having them
00:43:44
enacted on us and there's some stuff in the movie that feels more like that and maybe that's not a perfectly accurate
00:43:55
representation of his psychology again there's part of me that's like I couldn't care less whatever dude you're
00:44:00
pathetic you're routing in Hell fine um but that moment of going oh you feel like a victim right now and crying
00:44:12
exactly stop it I feel very scared and so I know that I need to absorb all this shame for you so that I can actually
00:44:23
survive the situation and I think that that's a situation that know really well and probably know it on the dayto day in
00:44:31
much much smaller ways where it's just like you could ruin my day you could ruin my month like you know there's a
00:44:38
whole storyline with my character and her neighbor and you know he kind of pressures me into sex and it sucks and
00:44:45
it's a really weird piece of the story and yes of course for a women there is that question of like are you going to
00:44:53
physically harm me but there's also the question of like are you going to psychologically torture me every time I
00:44:58
step out my front door cuz you're my neighbor and like I don't know maybe it's easier for me to just go okay I
00:45:05
guess we'll have sex and neither version is good it's all awful but like these are the choices that we're fa yeah
00:45:14
what's the one you can live with and live with on a daily basis and if I stand up in a meeting and say that I
00:45:19
think Brian's idea isn't that great what are the consequences going to be for me
00:45:24
around the office and like making those Bargains every day is is also part of the fabric of the
00:45:29
movie how did I don't know and whatever you are are not comfortable talking about how did you get out of your
00:45:36
relationship because I think that's such like a it always is I like I think about
00:45:40
the takeaways of the movie but I think you're somebody that people would look at and be like she's [ __ ] Anna
00:45:44
Kendrick like but you got out of a situation and what did it take for you H I wish I had a simple answer like I know
00:45:53
I think that um those stories are always like really messy and complicated and um
00:46:00
yeah there were kind of steps along the way um but certainly there was a there was a day that we were having a
00:46:10
conversation and you know it felt like I was always just trying to kind of you know while walking on eggshells trying
00:46:19
to sort of go like do you not see what you're doing you know like I just thought like surely
00:46:27
he's reason surely he can be reasonable and and he can see what's happening you know which wasn't going to happen but
00:46:34
you know I was obviously holding on to some hope for a while but there was a day that I
00:46:43
really I almost did a kind of version of the end sequence of the movie where I just stopped pushing back and and it was
00:46:55
almost like I went into and I know that you've been there that everyone listening has been there where
00:47:01
it's like you almost go okay at this point I think I just need to go into like information gathering mode I'm
00:47:08
actually not going to push back at all I'm just going to kind of agree with everything he's saying with his whole
00:47:14
worldview with all of it just so that he'll keep talking and I can almost like get myself the
00:47:20
information that I'm subconsciously avoiding seeing um and like just listening to him sort of
00:47:30
describe where his like worldview was coming from or like his um mindset was like oh no like
00:47:41
it was it was just kind of so much more Illuminating than any you know argument that we'd had um because it really was
00:47:50
like okay I'm creating a really really safe space for you and you're talking crazy friend so
00:47:57
um yeah that's when I like we went into couples therapy the next session and I was like I think we need to cut contact
00:48:04
for a while and a while was many months but um but you know then it you know was
00:48:10
messy it's complicated whatever and then yeah it was done and I put his stuff in
00:48:14
storage and and that was that I would have liked to burn it down with you you know what's funny there are so
00:48:21
many times where I'm like I should have but then I'm like that would have been a
00:48:25
gift to him oh yeah he would have eat I don't even know what we're talking about he woulding the victim oh baby he
00:48:34
would have been well I love it and I I I'm thank you for ending on that story because I
00:48:39
do I I think it's so important when talking about the stories talking about the shame all of it like it feels I
00:48:47
think people are waiting for like these big moments or like the actual like physical abuse or all these big things
00:48:53
when it's like it's in their daily life and it and it if relationships aren't making you better and making you happy
00:48:59
like that's abuse in and of itself um so thank you I just think that was really beautiful and I like haven't paid
00:49:04
attention to my notes I think we're out of time um I'm on your schedule so I don't
00:49:09
know do you uh I think you're the one on like this this giant press T amazing movie that's coming out do you want to
00:49:14
tell everyone where they can watch it when they can watch it yes um so uh it's on Netflix starting October 18th so I I
00:49:21
think that's probably already happening um depending on when this cares um and um yeah uh it's woman of the hour and
00:49:30
it's on your it's on your Netflix right now you guys run don't walk it is truly amazing start to finish you guys are
00:49:37
going to love and if you make it through the first five minutes you've made it through the worst of it I'll say uh if
00:49:40
you these are crime junkies they're like no disclaimer needed you guys this is made for you you're going to love it
00:49:47
enjoy it thank you so much this was so fantastic thank you for my merch oh you're so welcome F merch all right well
00:49:54
thanks again to SiriusXM for letting is hang out in their Studio I feel like a real grown-up big kid podcaster now and
00:50:01
don't forget to follow the show add it to your library you can also follow crime junkie and we're going to have
00:50:06
brand new episodes the last Friday of every month of cjf but if you can't wait until then you can hear crime junkie
00:50:11
radio on the SiriusXM app for your 247 True Crime fix you can follow me Ashley flowers on Instagram and Ashley flowers
00:50:20
crime junkie on Tik Tok and make sure you also follow crime junkie at crime junkie podcast I I'll see you next month
00:50:29
[Music]