00:00:31
To start, I feel like there is this perception that when when you do kind of interviews that
00:00:37
they're very orchestrated or there's this party line and they're like, "Oh, John's, you know, so composed." Or it's
00:00:42
it's John's tails. And we reached out to you. There is no off-the-record on the like you told me
00:00:48
You know, I've done a number of interviews over the years and my main reason for
00:00:52
engaging the media is to keep pressure on the police to do their job. And I've never wanted the questions in
00:00:59
advance. Cuz I want to respond spontaneously. If I have a made-up answer, then I'll think, "What What was my answer for
00:01:07
this question?" I'd rather just, you know, ask ask the question and I'll spontaneously respond. You know, and it
00:01:14
could be, "When did you stop beating your wife?" You know, and no boundaries on the questions. I got lots of
00:01:20
questions. Yeah. And so, it just is easier for me. Yeah. It's almost like I don't have to
00:01:25
prepare. Ideal. I did prepare. That's true. For the both of us. Okay, good. JonBenét, she would be We were talking
00:01:34
about this earlier, too. Like she would be almost my age right now. Yes, I realized that. And what is that
00:01:40
like? Like is she What is she when you picture her? She's stuck at six, I would imagine.
00:01:44
Oh, absolutely. She's still my little girl and I can't imagine what she would be like as an adult.
00:01:52
Do you feel like you're ever stuck in 1996? No. Um I mean, I've learned two things. One,
00:02:01
life's not easy all the time, and life's not always fair. And it's like, okay, those are the game
00:02:06
rules. Let's keep keep at it. And one of the things I've noticed with families who've lost a child, and I've
00:02:13
looked at this in some detail, I don't know what the percentage is. It's a majority percentage end up in a
00:02:19
divorce. Mhm. And for Patsy and I, we've fortunately What really got us up off the floor was
00:02:27
the realization we have three other children now that need us desperately to be strong. They're hurt. They're
00:02:32
crushed. They've lost At their age, they shouldn't have to deal with the loss and death of a family
00:02:39
member. Do you feel like you're still in shock? Would you say you're still in get over the murder the loss of a child.
00:02:46
You get You move beyond it. Did you ever give yourself time to have a pity party? Cuz
00:02:51
if anyone deserves a pity party You you do once in a while, yeah. Well, it's interesting was sometimes I'd be
00:02:55
down, Patsy'd be up, and and we sort of could offset each other. We'll get into,
00:03:01
I think, you know, why they kind of looked at you guys as a whole. But even in looking at the family, I do feel like
00:03:07
at least initially Patsy like bore the brunt of that. She did. And for like a long time. I even watched um something
00:03:15
they did on Netflix a while ago called The Casting JonBenét. And I There's like a line in there where the guy was like,
00:03:19
oh, I bet she was probably a horrible [ __ ] of a mother. Oh, she was a wonderful mother. An amazing mother.
00:03:25
Why do you think they like they latched onto her so much? When I know that there
00:03:29
was If people want to have questions about what happened in the home, why is it her that everyone I don't know.
00:03:35
became fixated on? Patsy was a very strong woman. Uh maybe didn't come across so good on
00:03:44
television, I was told by people. Um but she was a wonderful mother. She's a wonderful stepmother.
00:03:52
Um and I never heard her say anything negative about anybody. She's just a good person.
00:04:00
And so for her to take the brunt of that assault is just so unfair. When we lost
00:04:05
JonBenét, she got very focused on Burke. I mean, that was our goal was try to give him as normal a
00:04:14
childhood as we could possibly give him amidst all this chaos that was going around us. We did
00:04:21
We were afraid. Somebody had attacked our family. We don't know who it was. And we were frightened, quite frankly.
00:04:30
And one of the challenges how do we wanted to keep Burke out of photograph out of
00:04:37
video and pictures so that people would know what they looked like. And so how do we get him from We were
00:04:42
living with friends when we were in Boulder so he could finish his school year. How do we get him to school without
00:04:48
being photographed? And it became a project and in a way it was it was diversion from grieving.
00:04:56
We we'd send out a a decoy car. Burke would be in another car on the floor in the back seat.
00:05:03
go to school? Yeah, to go to school. And we'd get him to school unphotographed cuz we wanted to protect
00:05:12
him. What were the kids at school like to him? Well, the kids are wonderful and Oh, yeah. And uh Like that's the first
00:05:19
time I've ever heard that. Normally school age kids are awful. Well, I say that I mean, from my
00:05:23
perspective they seemed like they really were great. Did you guys have any moments with him where you like you're
00:05:29
asking I I think about like kids, like what are the things that the parents don't know?
00:05:33
Like what's happening with No. You know, you know your children. Well, and I I'm not necessarily talking
00:05:38
about like him doing something, but I'm saying like you know, they hang out together. They have the same group of
00:05:42
friends. Like was there someone that maybe she didn't tell mom and dad about but she's going to tell her brother
00:05:46
about or her brother. Like did you guys have any of those like moments with Burke to be like like help us and like
00:05:51
help us figure this out? No, cuz we really just wanted him to be separated from it from the chaos and the
00:06:01
We wanted him to have to be normal and that's was very difficult cuz being followed around by the media and
00:06:08
going through the grocery store line and seeing your sister's picture on the front of a
00:06:13
tabloid. It was difficult to give him a normal life. Do you think he might still know
00:06:18
something that he like doesn't even know he knows? No. Burke's a very solid person. It's um
00:06:27
despite all. Yeah, went to college, graduated, had a good job uh ever since, well thought of by his
00:06:36
employers and very very uh disciplined. Buys used cars and, you know, uh he's a good
00:06:48
adult. He was a good son. If if he knew anything, it would not be something he would thought
00:06:55
is is important. important. That's what I'm saying. Like I wonder if there's something in there
00:06:59
like even so I know in the Dr. Phil one of the things that came out was uh the idea that you used a flashlight to put
00:07:05
him to sleep and that he came back down to play with a toy. Like when he's down and people are sleeping, does he has he
00:07:10
ever talked like did he get the sense that someone else was in the home? Did he hear anything? I don't know how like
00:07:16
how long was he up? No, uh we've never asked him that. I don't know. Uh I didn't know, frankly, that he got
00:07:25
up again. Mhm. I'm not sure he did. Again, that's fiction. There's so much fiction out
00:07:31
Cuz it's just thrown out there. It's It's just Dr. Phil who says, you got up to play with the toy and Burke says,
00:07:36
yeah, I did. It was something that I wanted to put together. And then it kind of just like Well, you
00:07:40
know, again, when we got home JonBenét had fallen asleep. But I know I know you and Burke came
00:07:46
to bed. Burke and I sat down and tried to put together one of those little toys for a little while just cuz he wanted
00:07:51
to. And then he went off to bed. You're saying like that whatever whatever Dr. Phil said and Burke said on the show, he
00:07:59
didn't come back down? I would I didn't know that he came back down if he did. Does stuff like that
00:08:06
make you want to be like, "Oh my gosh, maybe there's something like maybe there's something he knows?"
00:08:11
Burke would have said something if something was weird, but Okay. He may have misunderstood the question
00:08:18
too that Do you think Burke regrets doing it? Well, probably, but you know, the things
00:08:24
that were interpreted by the internet crowd "Well, he's smiling." Burke talks with a
00:08:31
smile. Yeah. You know, just the way he is. You ask him, "You know what time it is?"
00:08:36
He'll smile. Yeah, they lit him up after that. I know it. And uh it was very unfair. Do you think there's like one
00:08:43
thing that those that those people who who will never believe you like hone in on
00:08:49
or like one thing you're like, "Man, if we would have done this thing differently?"
00:08:52
Well, I don't know if there's one thing, but you know, we were uh portrayed as very rich people. We didn't consider
00:09:06
ourselves rich. We built a little computer business, sold our interest to Lockheed. I mean, for
00:09:12
like a pretty penny, though. But I got That was more money than I ever thought I'd have in my life, you know.
00:09:17
But we didn't I still was working. I still figured I needed to have paychecks coming in and
00:09:23
uh but we were portrayed as I was president of a a company that had done a billion dollars in revenue. We were a
00:09:29
distributor. We're like a grocery store. You got to sell a lot of milk and eggs to make a little bit of money. And that
00:09:34
was the kind of business we were in. So, in our industry, that was not a huge business, but
00:09:40
that was publicized a few weeks before JonBenét was murdered in the local paper.
00:09:47
But, they perceived therefore I must be a billionaire. Well, that wasn't true. I
00:09:50
was an employee of Lockheed. But, people don't like rich people. And we were portrayed as super rich,
00:09:57
callous, everybody knows rich people don't love their children kind of people. I think I don't know. And then then we
00:10:06
got into this child beauty thing, which Patsy and JonBenét had fun with it. And John Patsy's philosophy with her
00:10:14
kids was let them try anything they want to try. Patsy when JonBenét was she'd have been maybe four, I guess, was
00:10:22
diagnosed, or maybe three, three or four, diagnosed with ovarian cancer stage four.
00:10:28
Which has about a five-year life expectancy, and that's it. And Patsy was so distraught, she'd say,
00:10:35
"God, why did you give me these beautiful children if you're not going to let me
00:10:39
be here to raise them." But, she was a fighter. And she would beat it. She was in a
00:10:44
remission. For her it was a huge gift that she could now perhaps look forward to being with her
00:10:51
children when they go to college, get married, and have her grandkids. But, I think deep down she knew that may
00:10:58
not happen. And so, she tried to cram a lot of mother-daughter stuff into their their
00:11:05
lives together. She was a natural. She loved performing. yeah. Yeah, it's just the way she was.
00:11:11
And she'd put on little skits at home and make us interrupt our dinner or watch the skit that she and her friends
00:11:18
put on. So, it just that was her personality. And they had fun with it, but it wasn't
00:11:22
an obsession. Yeah. And of course, the media presented it as Patsy was this dominant mother who was living
00:11:30
vicariously through her daughter, forcing her to do this stuff. That's That was nonsense. John and I had fun
00:11:35
with it and loved it. If people say that you profited off of it, what's your response to them?
00:11:41
You're joking. I lost my job. I was not employable. I had I had a company tell me, "Look, we'd like you to
00:11:51
come work for us, but we can't afford to have our good name on the front of the National Enquirer.
00:11:56
So, we can't hire you." I was unemployed for Gosh, I don't know. I don't 5 6 7 years.
00:12:06
Um and I couldn't get a job. Lockheed was wonderful to me uh at the time at this time, you know, they were
00:12:15
couldn't have been more wonderful to me during the time I was still working for them.
00:12:22
But, they were in the process they wanted to They had acquired our company to try to diversify their business
00:12:29
model. And after a couple years, they decided, "We can't do it. We don't think that
00:12:33
way. We're, you know, a military industrial government contractor. We can't We don't know how to deal in the
00:12:41
in the consumer world." And so, they were in the process of selling us and four or five other
00:12:47
companies they'd bought to try to change their model. And uh they engaged a conversation, I guess,
00:12:56
with GE. And GE was going to buy us. It looked like. And I'm sure, and I don't fault them they
00:13:05
had a great company, but this Ramsey guy is a A lot of baggage. is a baggage. It's big baggage. We can't This isn't
00:13:13
going to work. And I didn't work for another Gosh, I don't know, 5 or 6 years cuz I
00:13:18
couldn't get a job. We were scraping by, basically. Mhm. Selling assets, selling our home, just trying to
00:13:28
create an income that way. But no, I how could I profit from this? This is that's absurd. I think people I
00:13:36
I think people would just look at the books. I think they would say, "Oh, Well, the book the first book
00:13:43
we did get a uh what do we call it? An advance and that kept us going for a while.
00:13:49
Financially. Uh by the time I wrote the second book, the whole book market had changed and
00:13:56
the advances just weren't there. But I did that second book mostly to help people.
00:14:01
Cuz I'd gone through this trauma of course the loss of a child, my faith, you know, it was
00:14:08
really challenged. How could God let this happen to a child? And the book I wrote was really I felt very compelled
00:14:16
to try to help people process the journey I went through. Wasn't to make money at all. A lot has
00:14:23
had to have changed over 30 years. Like when you think about like you're in it day one in the house, you think it's a
00:14:29
kidnapping. How do you think differently now about the ransom note than you did day one?
00:14:35
Well, Like I at least I have to imagine. Like like if if it were me, I imagine that
00:14:41
I've like picked this thing apart 10 ways to Sunday. It um it didn't make any sense first of
00:14:48
all. I know in some of the interviews they bring up for Patsy that this it goes back to the note and I
00:14:55
think one of the reasons they keep those who believe she wrote it perpetuate the
00:14:58
idea that she wrote it is because it seems like it's not the clear an- like answer or direction of like how
00:15:05
much of the note she saw. Cuz like initially it's she's you know, it's like our your daughter we have your
00:15:10
daughter and then she goes up and looks but then she talks about later um looking out the window and and seeing
00:15:16
that it's a marked car and being concerned. And people will say, "Oh, how did you know that you know, that that
00:15:22
was was later on the note?" People will say, "Oh, when she calls 911, how did she know how it signed if she only saw
00:15:27
the first page?" Yeah, you know, 30 years ago. Yeah, I don't I don't know. Uh you know, it was chaos that morning
00:15:36
and I really thought I could get John money back. I really did. We'd arranged um
00:15:46
you know, I don't have $118,000 laying around, but a friend of mine who was my banker
00:15:52
got my ATM limit on my Visa card jacked up. jacked up. And I gave that card to a friend I don't know who it was,
00:16:03
somebody who was there. I said, "Go get the money." And uh they came back and didn't get the money
00:16:10
and I was like, "Why why didn't she get the money?" Like, "Well, no, no, we don't need to do that yet."
00:16:15
But anyway, Why 118? That's something that everyone has asked. Well, yeah, that that is
00:16:21
it meant something to the killer. Um What do you think it means? Like, I mean, again,
00:16:26
Well, the only number that corre- correlates that I know of is um my bonus that year from Lockheed was $118,000.
00:16:38
And it was paid in January. Mhm. Now we're in December. It was on my pay stub every
00:16:48
Did you have those somewhere in the house? Oh, yeah. I'm sure laying around somewhere.
00:16:52
Did they ever find them? I don't know. Mhm. So, it comes back to somebody who's like
00:16:57
So, clearly I mean, clearly they know they know she's in the basement. They're not actually looking to get the
00:17:02
money, but you think it was more of a message? I think it was a mix. I mean, why not a million? Why not 500
00:17:09
you know, what's why not a big number? I mean, that's a big number, but doable. And it why 118? Why not 100? Why not
00:17:17
200? 150 something to somebody. People will like they just pick it apart. Like it. And it's crazy. It's It's like I was
00:17:25
criticized for disturbing the crime scene when I found JonBenét. Oh my god, he moved the body.
00:17:32
If you're a parent, what would you do? You'd pick up your child. I was hoping I was relieved I found her.
00:17:40
Thank god. Took the tape off her mouth and tried to untie her wrist. I couldn't because it
00:17:46
was tied so tightly. I didn't I didn't see the garrote. It was so deeply embedded in her throat.
00:17:53
Oh, he disturbed the crime scene. That That's That was wrong. It's like That's laughable to even say something
00:18:02
like that. Of course you would. And have you ever been back in? The house, no. Would you ever go back?
00:18:11
No. No. Uh we couldn't initially. This wasn't even A friend of ours helped us move
00:18:23
pack the bar stuff. And we moved to Atlanta, which was our home. That's where my my family was, that's where
00:18:30
Patsy's family was. Uh JonBenét was buried there. My oldest daughter was buried there. So
00:18:37
I was accused in the media of fleeing to Atlanta. But Yeah, so that's that's something that
00:18:43
people talk about is they say, "Oh So I mean day one, you know, they find JonBenét and within like within the hour
00:18:51
John's on the phone saying that I've got to get to Atlanta. And people say it was for a business
00:18:56
meeting. Like What was that? Well, that's not quite the way it was. But So there was so much misinformation
00:19:02
out there. It was hard to even combat any of it. But Atlanta was our home. We had a family
00:19:10
cemetery plot. That's where JonBenét was going to be buried. My oldest daughter was killed 4 years
00:19:15
earlier in a car accident. She was buried there. That was our focus. To get JonBenét
00:19:23
buried. Taken care of. Boulder was not our home. We had a house there, had a job there,
00:19:28
but it wasn't home. Home was Atlanta. Is home do you mean like you had a support system? Yeah. And we lived there
00:19:34
for 30 years. When you made that Would you make the call? Cuz you Did Did you or you didn't
00:19:42
make a call to start remember how that evolved. No, I didn't actually. Um I'd asked
00:19:51
one of the detectives. There's only one detective there that morning. Everybody else was on vacation.
00:19:58
It was Christmas day after Christmas. But there were lots of detectives and police there.
00:20:04
And I just I can't remember what I said, but like I want to go home. And he's He said, "Yeah, that's fine.
00:20:13
Go." And Lockheed sent one of their airplanes out. Which is wonderful. And flew us back to Atlanta.
00:20:24
So And took one of our little Burke's friends with him at the last minute. Oh, really? Yeah. What friend came with him?
00:20:29
I can't remember his name, but he's one of his buddies and the mom They were at the airport seeing us off and
00:20:38
I forget how it came up, but can whatever his name was, Taylor, can he come with us and we're
00:20:44
like, "I'm sure he could, but I don't know that his mother would like it." What your What her mother would like?
00:20:49
And his mother said, "Yes, that's great. Wonderful." Oh, wow. So, Burke and Patsy and I and this little friend are
00:20:56
on this Lockheed plane that flew us back to Atlanta. And uh that's as far as our planning had
00:21:03
gotten. There was no planning. You're in shock. When we left the house that morning after we
00:21:10
found JonBenét, we never went back in that home. We were staying with friends. Friends took us in
00:21:16
and a lot of our friends were there to support us. Yeah. Uh and the police came uh several times and we
00:21:25
sat and talked to them um and when it started to not go so well cuz we talked to the police. We They
00:21:33
were God, they're good. They're our saviors. We got to This is in their hands and we trust them.
00:21:40
And um I had gotten a call from one of the fellows I worked with. He said, "I got a call from inside the
00:21:50
system. Get the best defense attorney he can get his hands on because they think he
00:21:55
killed his daughter." This is like the next day. And I was like unbelievable. So anyway
00:22:06
But anyway, the police would come to the house and we'd talk to them as much as they wanted. They'd ask questions and
00:22:10
we'd do the best to answer them. And then they said one of our friends that was there
00:22:16
bringing food and you know, comforting stuff was a former uh attorney with the district attorney's office.
00:22:26
And he was kind of observing things, you know. That's Mike. Mike, yeah. And uh the police were saying, "Well, we need
00:22:34
you to come down to the station." Uh you Please come here. We We can't. We're We're secure here. We're safe.
00:22:43
Patsy's sedated in bed. She's not capable of getting dressed and going down to the station.
00:22:50
You come here, please. Oh, no. We need you to come to the station. Why? And this I think was Linda Arndt actually
00:22:56
now that I think about it. And then Mike stepped in and said, "Time out." Cuz he knew the police department. He'd
00:23:04
worked with me before. And he said, "We'll get back to you. We're not coming down to the station
00:23:08
today. We'll get back to you." And the next day, and I'd gotten that call, which I hadn't told anybody about,
00:23:16
that I needed to get a defense attorney cuz the police thought I killed my daughter.
00:23:21
This is the day after. They hadn't even looked at evidence or looked at our family history or anything. It was just
00:23:26
like, "Ah, it had to be the father. It's always the evil father." Were they thinking it was you?
00:23:30
Mhm. So This was Linda Arndt. I'm sure that So Linda thought it was you, and then
00:23:35
this idea of Patsy comes from someone else? Apparently. Okay. Um And so our focus was to get
00:23:45
JonBenét buried properly in our family cemetery in Atlanta, get back to our family for support.
00:23:52
And we did that within days of this happening. And um what we learned, this was part of what
00:24:03
made us really mistrust the police, uh was we went back to Boulder to get Burke back in school after we
00:24:12
buried JonBenét. And help the police. You know, s- And our attorneys, who Mike had brought
00:24:22
in, uh on his own, he had said, "John, would you allow me to do some things here that
00:24:28
was neces- that were necessary?" When we did this time out, we're not coming to the station. I said, "Yes,
00:24:34
absolutely." So the next day he's introducing me to my attorney. One attorney can't represent both
00:24:41
parties. So Patsy had to have an attorney. We have these Crime Junkie rules, and one of ours is get always get
00:24:47
a lawyer. So like first of all, I would have done that day one. Yeah. And you know, our other is we always say like
00:24:53
you don't ever know you don't know everyone inside and out 100%. Yeah, that's true.
00:24:57
But did you ever question like does she know does she know something? Did you guys ever have a moment in private where
00:25:01
you're like or never ever? Never ever. Patsy has survived stage four ovarian cancer, was given the gift
00:25:09
of life again for a a while. Mhm. Which she was so thankful for. And she originally
00:25:24
our attorney said, "Look, this is nuts that you're even looked at as suspects, but that will get this will
00:25:31
get resolved in a couple months, so you know, if you hire a heart surgeon, you better hire a good one." Yeah.
00:25:38
It's going to be expensive, but it's only going to last a couple months. Yeah. And it lasted about 3 years. And
00:25:44
we got to the point where we said, "We we're out of money. We're we can't keep paying." And they said, "Doesn't
00:25:50
matter. We're we're committed to getting this horrible corrected." And so they they worked on our case
00:26:00
on the our behalf for several years for no charge. Oh, wow. But we're out of money. Couldn't didn't matter. When was
00:26:08
that? Like how long did it take to like burn through it? Couple years, probably.
00:26:16
Yeah, yeah, probably. What did they think about you guys doing CNN? Oh, that that was
00:26:24
that was a mistake. We shouldn't have done that. Was that like a like did they advise against it? Did they think that
00:26:30
No, they they strictly advised or they we never asked them. You know, we were back in Atlanta for the funeral.
00:26:37
Some of our Boulder friends were there and they said, "Oh my god, you know, the media's going crazy. You've got to
00:26:42
show them that you're normal people and Boulder's a wonderful place." So, they're really focused on making Boulder
00:26:49
not suffer a reputational damage, not but that's that was their focus. That's weird though, right?
00:26:54
Oh, weird. their goal? Like to make Boulder look safe like I don't think it makes
00:26:59
Boulder look good because there's you got I mean you guys are saying there's a madman in Boulder. Yeah. Well, and of
00:27:05
course Boulder was like they the authorities, the mayor at the time said oh, nothing to worry about. You
00:27:14
know, this there's no killer out there cuz she'd been told by the police to ask the parents we know it's parents we just
00:27:20
got to prove it. And uh it is weird. It was weird, but that we shouldn't have been doing an
00:27:30
interview like that. What did your lawyers say when they like cuz I mean did they just
00:27:35
see you on TV one day? Cuz I think that's the thing people would be like I don't understand like John's a smart
00:27:40
guy. He's he's consulting his lawyers for everything. How does his lawyers not know he's going on CNN?
00:27:45
At that time, we'd been introduced to our lawyers, but we'd immediately flew back to Atlanta for JonBenét's funeral.
00:27:52
We'd never had not met with our lawyers. Oh, okay. It was a horrible mistake for
00:27:57
several reasons. Uh one we were no shape to do an interview. There's no point in doing an
00:28:02
interview other than to satisfy our friends who were pressuring us to show ourselves. I don't why did they
00:28:08
want you on TV so bad? Like that's that's the part that never made sense. Well, it
00:28:12
they were concerned that the media was instantly piling on us as the killers. And that that that that was horribly
00:28:23
wrong and you need to show yourself and defend yourself. Why do your friends like I mean I
00:28:28
appreciate that they care for you, but it's just like Well, they don't know. They're they weren't
00:28:33
any more expert at it than we were. And so we just reluctantly agreed to do it, but in retrospect
00:28:41
that's shouldn't shouldn't have happened. And our attorneys Well, in fact, from that
00:28:45
point on our attorneys said no, you're not we are not going to respond to the media accusations. You're not going to
00:28:51
respond to them. We're going to defend you. In fact, they said, "Look, we will guarantee you one
00:28:57
thing. Money-back guarantee. We'll destroy them in court. This will be a cakewalk if it
00:29:04
gets to that point." But they said, "We can't practice law in front of a CNN camera. That's not our job. We don't
00:29:10
know how to do that." And they were they were frustrated by that because we were being
00:29:18
accused in the court of public opinion. But they wouldn't couldn't respond. Mhm. Cuz there seems like there was this
00:29:27
huge rift that like I I've I've not seen in such a stark way. I've seen it happen
00:29:32
before, but between the DA's office and the police. And it's in and you know, you had
00:29:38
lawyers who I think knew you know, they knew the DA kind of grew up with them, worked with them. Like so I think that
00:29:43
you guys obviously had an amicable relationship. They're the one you eventually go and talk to.
00:29:47
Right. I don't know. If what I was told, the police are like, "Oh, we know who did it. Go arrest them and prosecute
00:29:53
them." And the DA said DA says, "Well, show me the evidence." "Well, we don't have that much evidence. We
00:30:00
just know they did it." And so the DA wouldn't charge them. And the police took that as a an
00:30:06
offense. And apparently that happened a lot. That happened in our case. I feel like
00:30:11
there was like this circle where it was a lot of that where where I kept hearing
00:30:15
like the DA's like, "Get the evidence." The police would say, and I don't know what's true, but what police would say,
00:30:22
"We're trying to get the evidence, but you're stalling us." Right. Well, that's that's kind of what
00:30:27
Do you Do you feel like that like and and I don't know what advice you were getting or what was happening, but I do
00:30:33
see moments where there are certain things where I think like the like phone records.
00:30:38
Like the police say they don't have phone records till like a year later. Oh, no, that we gave them everything
00:30:43
they asked for when they asked for it. Early on we gave them phone records, we gave them credit card records, full
00:30:50
access to our bank accounts, everything. Everything they asked for. The way they
00:30:54
asked for a year later which they should have asked for Yeah. in the beginning was our clothing that
00:30:59
we were wearing that morning cuz they found unidentified fibers, pubic hairs were not identified. A year later
00:31:09
somebody said, "Oh, you should have asked for their clothing." Well, they finally did and we had to
00:31:12
chose a picture. I didn't remember what we were wearing. But we supplied we gave them everything
00:31:17
they asked for when they asked for it. Handwriting samples, we had to write that horrible note
00:31:22
right-handed and left-handed. Mhm. So, they had samples of our handwriting which didn't match. They wanted to
00:31:29
arrest us. Okay. Um on probable cause. They probably did this, so let's arrest them and
00:31:37
beat a confession out of them. In fact, we were told by the DA two things later years later
00:31:45
the whole police case was based on they didn't think we acted right that morning. Mhm.
00:31:52
And the strategy to solve the case was to bring intense pressure on Patsy and I so the innocent
00:32:00
one would confess. What did they mean by you didn't act right? So, like what were the things
00:32:05
that were bothering them? the interesting thing. I read that there was one detective
00:32:09
there this woman who I don't know if she'd ever investigated a murder or not, probably.
00:32:14
Linda Arndt, yeah. Cuz she came when it was still a kidnapping, right? Yeah. They went to the sheriff's office, got a
00:32:20
book on how to deal with a kidnapping. They didn't know. And I read her report much later
00:32:30
and it was just nuts. But the things that she observed would say, "Yeah, that's not what you'd
00:32:38
expect because of the way she wrote it." For example, she said John was I observed him going
00:32:45
casually through the mail waiting for this phone call from the kidnapper. I was looking for another communication
00:32:52
with the kidnapper. We had a pile of mail that had come through the front door slot laying on the floor. I was
00:32:57
going through it to see if there's anything else from the kidnapper. She should have been doing that.
00:33:01
But she interpreted as casually going through the mail while waiting for a call to come in.
00:33:08
She also said 10:00 came and went. John didn't go nuts cuz the call didn't We didn't get a call.
00:33:15
The note said, "I will call you at 10:00 tomorrow." I didn't know if tomorrow was tomorrow
00:33:21
or the day we were in. So, when 10:00 came and went, I thought, "Oh my god, I got to wait
00:33:25
another 24 hours for this call to come." So, it wasn't a big surprise that he didn't call cuz it said tomorrow in the
00:33:35
note. What was the other thing? It was just nuts. Oh, what when when he found JonBenét there was he didn't cry, there
00:33:41
was no tears. I can just People react differently to trauma, but when I lost my daughter Beth in a car
00:33:51
accident, JonBenét's older sister, I was mad. I didn't cry. I was mad. I was mad. Why
00:34:00
did this happen? I was mad at God. With Beth and then and then with JonBenét, it was And what I guess
00:34:07
they didn't understand was when they're making these observations of our behavior,
00:34:15
when I lost Beth, I got a call, it was over. I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't get her to the best medical
00:34:22
treatment. I couldn't go by her side and comfort her. It was over. It was done. She was gone.
00:34:29
With JonBenét, it wasn't over. I could get her back. And I really thought I would.
00:34:34
But I had to keep my wits about me, and I had to keep my head together and do whatever I
00:34:39
could possibly do, um not knowing what to do, but Which is actually how I think I would respond to
00:34:48
a traumatic situation is I'm very like jump in and act. Yeah. Um the thing that I think other
00:34:54
like people don't understand that this is the one that was hard for me is like it's said over and over by Linda Arndt
00:35:00
that you and Patsy are just like completely separated. What was your interpretation of
00:35:05
was literally sitting on the floor with a big bowl in front of her ready to throw up.
00:35:10
Mhm. Quite honestly, she was devastated. And so she was over there and that's fine. She's
00:35:17
That's okay. I was focused on trying to get JonBenét back. Mhm. How do I get the money together?
00:35:26
He wanted $118,000 in an attaché case. How do I get the cash together? I was working on that.
00:35:34
Um It's what I what can I I got to get my daughter back. That was my focus. Patsy's okay. She's
00:35:41
She's got friends around her. She had friends around her. I got to get my daughter back. That was
00:35:46
the other thing Linda says in her interpretation of things that you disappear for an hour. That's not true.
00:35:52
Yeah? No. I I was looking out the window occasionally to see if I could see anything.
00:36:00
But no, I didn't disappear for an hour. Linda Arndt was nuts. Do you She on national television said, "Well,
00:36:08
I knew he was guilty cuz I saw it in his eyes." I thought, "Well, that's quite a
00:36:12
talent." But she was she was way in over her head and not I don't think she was playing with a
00:36:21
full deck. Aside from that first day, did you ever have did like do other interviews with her or have much
00:36:27
interaction with her? None. Did she Did her and Patsy end up having a relationship with someone? Well, you
00:36:33
know, she was our savior. I mean, she came to help us. You know, you call the police, you
00:36:38
expect them to come to help. We trusted her initially before we'd seen this report and all these crazy
00:36:45
observations. And so, she was kind of our policeman personified. We didn't know any of these
00:36:54
other people that come involved from the police department, but Linda was there that morning when we had this
00:37:00
horrible tragedy in our lives. So, it's kind of a bonding in a way. So, did they
00:37:04
like even after that her and Patsy had conversations afterwards? Yeah, a few. Okay, yeah. I've heard
00:37:09
that, but I didn't know. It seemed like you guys had such a bad experience with her that I was
00:37:14
surprised the time we didn't know it was a bad experience. Mhm. Uh You know, you call the police, you think
00:37:21
they know what they're doing. And that's you trust them totally to do the right thing.
00:37:29
Mhm. And um Did Patsy ever tell you what they talked about? Cuz I think that's like a big
00:37:33
mystery to people. Is like why did she seem so nice? I think I can't remember. It's been so
00:37:40
long ago, but Patsy wanted to know who killed her daughter. And what are you doing? What What's
00:37:45
What's going on? What I You know, that was the kind of the level of conversation, I'm pretty sure.
00:37:52
Gary Oliva, did you want to talk about him? Oh. Yeah, he Well, he was the the lead that the DA gave us.
00:38:00
And said the police won't follow up on this properly, but it's a significant lead. And it was back in the day. I
00:38:05
remember reading this name on. in like the '90 the interviews you guys did back in like
00:38:11
'98 when they were like, "Do you recognize this name? Do you recognize this name?"
00:38:14
Yeah. And Gary Oliva was on there. Yeah. And say the substantially is very compelling. I don't know the I know the
00:38:23
he our guys looked at our investigators and kind of confirmed the circumstantial
00:38:30
information that was given to us and turned it over to the police. We My memory is that they interviewed him
00:38:38
but didn't kind of blew it off. I don't know if they did DNA testing, handwriting samples.
00:38:46
I've seen some handwriting recently, more recently. I don't know if they just recently got collected or they're
00:38:51
bringing it up again, but I've seen some handwriting samples that look promising, but I also think that
00:38:56
handwriting 30 years later now, people look at it sometimes the way they do with like bite
00:39:02
mark, which is like kind of junk science. Well, yeah, it's not it's not admissible in court.
00:39:07
Yeah, and I so I don't even know if they would the way that they felt so strongly
00:39:13
about Patsy in 1996, I don't know that they would anyone would feel that way now if we
00:39:18
Well, again, it was wrong to feel that way back then. Cuz she was 4.4 4.5 out of five, which is pretty much no way,
00:39:26
but I think it was cuz it was her notepad. Pen from the like like to your point,
00:39:31
it's like yeah, but so, it was in the house and person was in the house before we were
00:39:37
and none of that it was her paintbrush. That was a Okay, sorry, we didn't have the
00:39:44
paintbrush locked up. Yeah, it seems like there there there were these like cultural shifts. I think there was like
00:39:50
that distinct moment in 2016 when everyone started looking at Burke and and that's become like the big That's
00:39:58
That's absolutely insane. Burke was a 60-lb 9-year-old little boy. This is a sexual assault, a violent
00:40:08
assault. It's just it even the police immediately said no. He was interviewed by a child
00:40:16
psychologist, which I guess is normal. Uh for 2 days early on and they said no, absolutely no way.
00:40:24
He was heading wasn't aware of anything that happened and uh certainly wasn't the killer.
00:40:31
And uh so that is that's just absurd foolishness. What was your What was your thinking that morning when
00:40:39
um you're getting him out of the home? Because I know he You guys go to check on him. You think
00:40:46
he's still sleeping. Um he he says when he does his Dr. Phil that he's awake, but he's, you know,
00:40:51
clearly there's something going on. He's like, "I'm not I'm not messing with it. I just I'm like
00:40:55
waiting till they come and get me." Why did you guys want him to not be in that in that environment? Well, the
00:41:01
police were there. It was craziness. He He was a little boy. We wanted him safe and protected and
00:41:08
and he took some of his Christmas presents with him and went to stay with a friend
00:41:14
in his house. It was a way to get him out of this nightmare into a safe place. Did you guys feel
00:41:24
like he was safe? Like I think that was it hard? Cuz I think it'd be hard for me
00:41:27
to like I like I'm missing one child. Like I don't know if you could get me to let go of the other one.
00:41:32
Yeah, well, no, we we trusted our friends. They were good friends. They Their son was Burke's age. They were
00:41:39
buddies. They'd been friends for a long time. It was a safe place for him to go.
00:41:45
Do they have cuz Fleet took him away, but then Fleet comes back, right? Did Was but were his in-laws or something at
00:41:50
the house? So So there was like someone there with the kids? You know, 30 years ago. Yeah, I don't I
00:41:57
don't know. Uh you know, it was chaos that morning and I really thought I could get JonBenét
00:42:04
back. I really did. And but I never dealt with that or, you know, John Douglas, who's probably the premier
00:42:13
crime profiler, started that whole FBI program crime profiling. We spent some time with him over a a
00:42:21
period of time. And uh he his profile of this was that uh this was a fairly young person, 20s to
00:42:34
30s, fascinated with the movies cuz there was some movie quotes in the ransom note.
00:42:40
Um and it was either very angry, it's you personally, John, or very jealous of you, John.
00:42:47
This wasn't about JonBenét. That's John's assessment. And you still believe that?
00:42:53
I think that's part of it. I really do. Um but whoever did this is is a monster.
00:43:00
You believe that you're the why? I accept John Douglas's theory as credible. I really do. Yeah.
00:43:09
Um you know, the 2 weeks before her murder our company had achieved a billion dollars in sales for the year. Right.
00:43:18
And for us it was a big deal. And I we I wouldn't even paying attention and our financial guy said, "Hey, we're going to
00:43:27
hit a billion dollars." Holy mackerel, we need to have a party for our employees and
00:43:34
make a big deal of it. And our marketing lady said, "Let's Let's let the newspaper know."
00:43:40
And I had this gut feeling, another lesson, pay attention to your gut feelings. I had this gut feeling, ah, that's a bad
00:43:46
idea. But I let them do it. Yeah. Why did like if the if this if it was about money and like it your greed and going
00:43:56
back to a lot of things the note said, what do you think the way that they this the sexual component to this and the way
00:44:02
that they staged it? Like why why that piece of it? If it If it If it goes back to being about you and about
00:44:08
money, like that's what it doesn't matter. sense. I agree. No. Well, whoever did
00:44:11
this is great, you know, crazy, demented human being. Yeah. Um I know it doesn't it doesn't make a lot
00:44:26
of I don't know. I know you guys have been extremely clear that there was no sexual abuse on your part, any family
00:44:33
members' part. Our doctors can testify to that. Well, that was my question. So, I know
00:44:38
that you guys have been clear. Do you think that she wasn't abused by anyone ever, even if there's some
00:44:42
We don't know that for a fact. No. We don't. I mean, there's We never suspected that, but we don't
00:44:50
know that. I was I mean, what most people don't, right? Like you But, it's one in five girls are sexually
00:44:56
assaulted. We don't know for sure. Do you know, did they ever look into knowing John Douglas's
00:45:05
profile? I know he's a 20 to 30, but his profile of this being a young, really unsophisticated person, did they take a
00:45:12
really hard look at like the other kids in the neighborhood? No, they never did any neighborhood
00:45:17
survey. They never went door-to-door, which is a huge mistake. What's so wild to me is like they
00:45:24
they like the first officer, French I think was his name, he goes to the room that JonBenét's found. He just doesn't
00:45:30
open the door. It's latched, so he's like, "No, thank you." Right. How does Fleet White open the door and
00:45:34
not I don't know. If that's true, that's a huge red flag. She was right there. I mean, it
00:45:43
Cuz you like the second you open the door, you see the you see the white light there.
00:45:48
Doesn't add up. No, it doesn't. And that's Again, you don't know if that's fiction
00:45:53
or fact. There's so much fiction that was put out by the police. I mean, so I know you guys don't have
00:45:58
much of a relationship now, but like are those some of the questions like the hard questions that like I mean again I
00:46:03
think my like this is my friend that I'm going to be like in their face. Tell me
00:46:06
how this makes sense. I what I think happened first of all, I think the police took Fleet away from the home we
00:46:13
were in that morning. Or the day after. And he came back after a couple hours and was different.
00:46:22
I think the police were leveraging Fleet to use him. You know, we we have evidence that the
00:46:30
family killed JonBenét and you need to help us here and I I don't know, but they said he was
00:46:35
different when he came back from meeting with the police for 2 hours. Cuz you guys have like a huge falling out,
00:46:40
right? Like Well, it was just because it was bizarre. I mean um he came back to Atlanta
00:46:46
to to the funeral and we made arrangements for our Boulder friends to stay with Atlanta friends in
00:46:52
their homes. And our friends that we had that person stay with called they didn't call us, but they called
00:47:04
somebody that was helping us and say we want we want him out of our house. There's he's bizarre. Something's
00:47:11
screwy. And so we put him with my brother. Mhm. My brother called me a day or so later
00:47:20
and said do you have a gun in the house? And I said no. Well, Fleet is on his way to your house.
00:47:28
We're with Patsy's parents. Something's wrong and What's he saying? Like I mean for your
00:47:36
brother to say do you have a gun? Like that's scary. want to meet. So what does he say when he gets to you
00:47:44
cuz I know in Patsy's um deposition she's like I don't know I was in the basement like I'm not part of that
00:47:48
conversation. And it seems like she never like asked you. But like what is that conversation like?
00:47:53
remember. I honestly don't remember. And then he comes one more time when you're back in Colorado, like comes
00:47:59
at you kind of again, like interrupts a meeting with you. were with our priest, our minister, and
00:48:04
he barged in and I think I think it was just a hugely at best, it was a hugely upsetting
00:48:17
thing for Fleet to be in the periphery of all this. At worst? Well, I don't know. I mean,
00:48:29
I'd been I'd been with him a lot. And I have no doubt that the police used him. Probably said, "Well, John thinks you
00:48:39
killed his daughter and you got to work with us here." Don't know that for a fact, but I
00:48:43
wouldn't be surprised. I had Fleet and I used to sail it. Fleet was a really expert sailor and I was not.
00:48:52
And I bought the sailboat in the Navy? Yeah. That doesn't matter. It's irrelevant.
00:48:59
Sure. Sure. Um I think it was a sail. You know, but I don't know, it's a couple years later.
00:49:05
I sent it back to him with the note, said, "Look, I don't know what the police told you.
00:49:08
I'm sure they probably told you things that weren't true, but I absolutely don't
00:49:15
think you were involved in our daughter's murder." And I never heard back from him, but
00:49:22
just I knew him. I knew his wife. I knew his kids. How do you not like go like sh- like
00:49:29
like shake it out? Like this is the part that as I'm like I like so hard to understand and I understand why people
00:49:34
spiral. And then his wife, I heard was telling Patsy like, "I you know, I need a couple minutes. I might know
00:49:38
something." But I'm just like, "God, there's Is there something in there?" How do How do you How do you feel like
00:49:44
you have to like like what is it that that that like makes you not be be not be the Fleet who's like holding onto
00:49:50
people's collars. Yeah. I've told people, look, if you were a male living in Boulder on
00:49:57
the 26th or 25th of December 1990 uh six, you're suspect in my book. I can't rule you out. I don't know. I'm so
00:50:08
suspicious and frightened and bewildered, you're suspect in my book. I don't trust
00:50:16
you. What was the deal with the 23rd night with Fleet White? And my favorite character, Fleet White.
00:50:24
Yeah, there's weird stuff like that. Um What was the deal? He Somehow he dialed 911 from our home
00:50:36
phone and meant to dial something else. I can't remember. I remember if the police came or
00:50:45
or they just called us back, but we said, "No, no, that was that was a mistake, I guess."
00:50:51
Did you ever ask him about it? Ask Fleet? Yeah. No. You know, early on, you know, I was just so
00:51:00
crushed. I wished I would die. That was that hurt. The people say, "Oh, you Do you think
00:51:09
about suicide?" Well, it crossed my mind, but that would have imposed more hurt on my
00:51:14
children, and that's that's a dumb thing to do. But I would have been happy to die.
00:51:21
I was so devastated. So, you don't think about much else, I guess, other than your loss. Mhm.
00:51:29
And uh You know, the as I say, the the Fleet stuff was weird, but it didn't it didn't fit with who I knew
00:51:44
as a person. I remember what he didn't res- well under stress. I remember reading
00:51:50
the anecdote you had about sailing with him and how he just kind of like froze and you had to Yeah. You guys
00:51:57
had to come get saved by someone. Well, we got into a really rough weather and a line that got wrapped around our
00:52:05
propeller as we're coming to port, we couldn't steer the boat. And we're getting blown into a
00:52:11
big rock wall and and uh somebody and weather was blowing like crazy and we're like, "Okay, this is the end of
00:52:21
the sailboat, you know? We're going to get killed, but that's going to be the end of the boat if it crashes into that
00:52:26
stone wall." And so he just acted very uh flustered and overwhelmed by difficulty.
00:52:38
And I sort of sort of attributed some of his behavior to that. I don't know. I know, I think I would just bulldoze
00:52:48
through my life. I like I would I would probably ruin every relationship I had. Like truly. Like if something I think it
00:52:53
would I think it would consume me because I think I would pick apart and maybe this these are the people who can
00:52:58
survive it and the people who can't because I think I would I would hunt down Fleet White and I
00:53:04
would like, you know what I mean? And I would like I would pick it apart even if
00:53:06
it was my own child and probably to the detriment of my child. Um and I think that's what so many people we think we
00:53:12
know what we're going to do in those situations. Well, but you can't Yeah. assume that. I mean, it's like getting
00:53:19
hit by a speeding truck. It's so devastating emotionally. Uh your system's in shock. I mean
00:53:36
Have you had different theories over the 30 years or or or has has been pretty much the same or did it I mean John
00:53:42
Douglas's theory when he presented that to me was sobering. It's like Who hates Who hates you that much? Like that
00:53:48
Well, that's what I said to John. I said, "I don't I've never We had 700 employees. I knew most of them, but not
00:53:54
all of them. We've had to fire some for different reasons. But since I was the president, I guess
00:54:00
conceivably they could blame me for the loss of their job, let's say. But I I said I never made anybody that
00:54:11
bad. I can't imagine that. He said, "You may not even know them." They read about it in the paper. They
00:54:17
observed your You know, we were Boulder's a very liberal far left community. And um What's that mean?
00:54:29
Well, very um It's described jokingly as 32 square miles surrounded by reality. Mhm.
00:54:37
Um And we knew that going in. We were capitalists. We were businesses, capitalists. They're not
00:54:46
really welcome here. That's the feeling we got. Mhm. But um You know, who Who could do this to a
00:54:56
child? But anyway, John is very has lots of credit on his resume to being right.
00:55:08
Between him and your PIs have you over the years come to at least your best working theory of
00:55:16
of what you think happened? Like the the order, what was staged? Oh, I think I think the person came into
00:55:21
our home uh when we were gone that evening. We went out for dinner. Was there when we got home.
00:55:29
Um and waited for us to go to bed. That same scenario happened about 9 months later in the same neighborhood
00:55:36
with a little friend of JonBenét's. Fortunately, the mother interrupted it. But to me, they're
00:55:42
very potentially the same person. Police blew it off as the same. Uh but I know the father of that second
00:55:52
little girl absolutely felt there's a lot of similarities. They knew that the killer was in the
00:55:58
house or the pretty fortunately the child wasn't killed killed, but they came home.
00:56:06
Same that we did. Set the burglar alarm, went to bed. So, the killer had the the
00:56:12
bad guy had to be in the house waiting when they got home. So, you think he's he's in the house
00:56:17
waiting? Mhm. And then what? And then we went to bed and we believe that as to experts that a stun gun was used
00:56:27
to silence JonBenét. She was taken down the basement. So, you think that he went up to her
00:56:32
room first, got her there? Mhm. And then and then took her to the basement? That's yeah.
00:56:39
And do you have any and I'm I know this is like a little bit of detail. Um details I know you've lived with for a
00:56:44
long time. Do you Do they have any ideas about what the intention was? Like what some
00:56:52
of the sexual activity, some of the choking was like know, Lou Smit, this detective that was
00:56:57
retired brought out of retirement, legendary detective in Colorado, solved over 200 homicides. Amazing man. Yeah.
00:57:05
Uh was brought in by the DA because I think the DA suspected the police had it kind of messed up.
00:57:13
Lou spent a couple months looking at the evidence and very conclusively in his mind said, "No, there's lots of evidence
00:57:19
of an intruder." His theory was it was a kidnapping gone wrong based on the evidence.
00:57:27
And I always thought those two conflicted between John Douglas's theory and and Lou's, but somebody pointed out to me,
00:57:35
"Well, no, they they they don't necessarily conflict." And I was like, "Yeah, you're right."
00:57:42
Do they do they think that the person wrote the note while that he's in the house waiting for
00:57:48
you guys to come home? Lou John Douglas said nobody could write a three-page ransom note after murdering a child.
00:57:53
Okay, so that's done earlier. you know, their warped brain is going crazy, and he said
00:57:59
that note was written before. Where do you assume it went wrong? So, if he wrote this note to get her out,
00:58:05
like why does he take her to the basement? You think? Well, there was I don't know. I mean
00:58:13
the um she was sexually assaulted, apparently. There was a suitcase who what I the so-called detective that was
00:58:26
there this that day said, "Well, go look through the house, see if you see anything unusual."
00:58:31
And I reported to her that I went to the basement, there was a suitcase standing up
00:58:37
on you know, on its bottom under a window, and the window was open. I said, "That suitcase shouldn't be
00:58:44
there. It looks like it may have been a step to get out of the house." And apparently they found
00:58:52
uh and I don't know this for a fact, but I there's so much information out there,
00:58:57
you don't know what's right and what's wrong, but they apparently found uh fibers from JonBenét's clothing in
00:59:04
the suitcase, along with a a doll or something. And Lou's theory was they may have tried
00:59:10
to get her out of the house in the suitcase, and it went wrong, and it didn't work.
00:59:17
I don't know. When you first saw the window, cuz you had gone down initially, you said when you first saw the window,
00:59:23
you didn't think to mention it. No, no. I did immediately, yeah. Yeah, I I uh And the window was open. Uh-huh.
00:59:33
And he had a pane broken in it and the suitcase propped up underneath. And I told Linda Arndt, the detective, I said,
00:59:40
"Look, that suitcase should not be there." And you told her this before they you guys found JonBenét? Yeah.
00:59:47
I said, "Maybe that window was broken by me. I don't know, but it shouldn't have been open
00:59:51
and that suitcase shouldn't have been there." Mhm. And And of course the police came out and
00:59:59
said, "Well, nobody a human couldn't get through that window." Well, that's I did
01:00:02
it. Lou Smit did it. Lou Smit's example. Just They were so focused on convicting
01:00:10
Patsy or me that nothing else mattered. And then in January they had sent some evidence in for DNA
01:00:18
sampling and the report came back middle of January with with a covered unidentified male DNA
01:00:27
from JonBenét's clothing does not match anyone in the family. John, Patsy, and Burke are excluded.
01:00:34
Yeah, the first one I think that they found it was it was from a blood spot in the
01:00:40
underwear and it was it was the her it was her blood, but it was what they determined at least based on enzymes
01:00:45
like saliva within the blood spot. Mhm. Um those were the first things that they
01:00:50
tested and ruled the family out. Right. Well, the police kept that a secret from
01:00:56
the DA for 6 months because it conflicted with their conclusion. It's like, "Holy crap, what are we going to
01:01:02
do about this?" Cuz that's the first question a defense attorney would ask is, "Whose DNA is that?" "Oh, we don't
01:01:08
know, but it doesn't matter." Well, it does matter. Male DNA found in a sexual assault case
01:01:14
is a huge clue. And to discount it is absurd. And they do eventually go and get another
01:01:24
sample Well, that they put in the CODIS from it. They get a big a large enough profile to put in CODIS, right?
01:01:28
Right. They actually had the first sample was CODIS qualified as well. A new DA came in
01:01:33
and set up her own investigative unit on this case. Took the case away from the police.
01:01:42
And they didn't position it that way. The media was like, "Oh, we want fresh eyes." No, they I believe she took it
01:01:47
away from the police, brought Lou Smit back in who had left because he was disgusted with the direction it was
01:01:55
going. And they started investigating again. And she did additional DNA testing. And
01:02:01
this is like in 2008? Yeah. And that supported the earlier DNA sampling that it was
01:02:09
unidentified male DNA and had no explanation. Police tried very hard to explain it away.
01:02:15
They even tried to get the county to pay for them to go to China. And then they went to
01:02:19
They wanted to go to China. Right. And start sampling. But then they they when they really honed in on oh no, this
01:02:25
isn't just like everywhere on the underwear, it's just in the blood spots and we're we're showing these enzymes
01:02:29
that show up in high levels with saliva. Yeah. Well, and I don't know I I did learn a
01:02:34
little bit about DNA um and it's complicated. It's very complicated. Really complicated.
01:02:40
2008, they do touch DNA on the side of her lounge on pants basically saying like we think that whoever would have
01:02:48
pulled her pants down might have done it here. They get two profiles, one from each side.
01:02:52
Um they're not nearly as big as the one that went into CODIS, but they say they're consistent with that one.
01:02:57
Right. And I heard the same thing where they're saying like in no other case have I seen where you see this much DNA
01:03:02
of someone else and we're not looking for someone else. Right. When they ended up testing the nylon rope that was
01:03:10
around her neck. I don't know if they ever did. I don't know that. They tested the rope
01:03:15
Okay. but not the wooden handle itself. Mhm. And the rope came back with an unknown sample.
01:03:22
I didn't know that. But it didn't match the other ones. And I don't know what that means. Like have
01:03:27
has anyone ever considered that it's and he Lou told me, first of all, Lou said, "I'll get this guy, John. I'll get
01:03:34
him." And he has a track record of getting them. of getting them. And sadly, he died of cancer. He
01:03:41
believed there were more than one person involved. But he also said, "Look, there's things
01:03:46
I know that only the killer knows, and I'm not going to tell you what those are. I'm
01:03:51
not telling anybody, but Did it die with him? It may have. I'm not sure. Um Lou had an extensive database of
01:04:00
information that um Now, some of his former homicide detective colleagues have formed a group
01:04:11
to finish Lou's work. Lou said, "This is a DNA case. It'll be solved by DNA." Have you ever asked to see all of his
01:04:19
materials? I mean, at one time you were paying him. Well, it's huge. Pardon? I mean, at one
01:04:24
time you were paying Lou, right? Lou Smith. No. Lou would I tried to buy Lou an ice
01:04:27
cream cone one day. He wouldn't let me do it. He was that honorable. No, I didn't pay him.
01:04:36
So, you never asked to see his stuff. I like I I couldn't help it. I would want to. Well, it was voluminous. And uh
01:04:43
the group that took over and they're doing it on their own. They've taken Lou's list, and they've
01:04:49
started to go down the list and get DNA. And that costs money. And so, they've raised
01:04:57
money over time to pay for the DNA testing, but they're not any of their expenses or
01:05:03
anything. It's all on their own. I'm so grateful for that. You know, Lou felt that he had a good
01:05:09
enough sample early on that that is the killer's DNA. You need nine markers out of 15
01:05:17
to be submittable to the database, the federal database. You probably know a lot more about this than
01:05:23
I do, but I'm learning. Um they determined that these 15 particular markers is like 100% Mhm. match.
01:05:33
15 out of billions. And we had nine of 15. And nine was the the threshold at which they would admit
01:05:42
it to the COVID database is good enough. I wonder if it's still in there because
01:05:47
I know back in the '90s, the database was less. It It was lower at nine. And then I
01:05:54
over the years, I believe they've raised it to be like 13. And And I've seen other cases where
01:06:01
it because it no longer meets the new standard, it drops out and people didn't even realize that it's not in
01:06:06
possible. I don't know. Be interesting. It's something I'll need to look into. Yeah. I I don't know. I
01:06:11
didn't know that they raised the threshold, but Do you know, did they ever test the JonBenét's bathroom?
01:06:16
Someone had gone to the bathroom and not flushed. Did they ever test that? Do you
01:06:19
know? I don't know. Seems like a like perfect sample for DNA. And I don't know if they tested and
01:06:25
it was hers or Well, there's you know, the the forensics people only spent two hours in our house
01:06:32
after JonBenét was found looking for evidence. The DA said, "Get your you know what
01:06:38
back in there. Two hours is not enough." So, they went back. I don't know how long they spent when they went back. And
01:06:44
they did find you know, they recovered the evidence, some evidence, and a palm print that
01:06:51
didn't match anybody on the door going into that room where JonBenét was found. Didn't match anyone? I thought it was I
01:06:57
thought they saw Patsy's and and JonBenét's, but Patsy was I know wrapping presents in that room and stuff
01:07:02
like that. Well, we'd go in and out of that room. It was storage room. We It's it the wine
01:07:05
cellar, but there wasn't With no wine. No wine. It was just an old coal cellar. I don't think I realized that there were
01:07:11
was an unidentified print. As far as I know, that's still unidentified as there was in the same case 9 months later.
01:07:19
Unidentified palm print. Did they check them? No. You're talking about in the in the
01:07:24
other case in the same neighborhood? Very similar to JonBenét. I think in the reporting they call her Amy.
01:07:29
Yeah, they blew that off as similar. Mhm. Because as the police chief said, I mean
01:07:35
there's so many quotes I could give you that they said were just nuts. First it was well, we didn't treat JonBenét's
01:07:41
abduction as a crime scene. We thought it was a kidnapping. That's a crime. It's a crime. I'm sorry. Yeah.
01:07:47
On the little girl, the police chief came out and said, well, they're not the same because second little girl wasn't
01:07:51
killed. Because her mom walked in. And mom interrupted it. It's just nuts we're dealing with. And that's a real
01:07:58
fundamental problem with our system. That little Boulder, Colorado Police Department is an island of authority.
01:08:06
People can't come on that island and help unless they're invited. And Boulder police never invited anybody
01:08:12
to come in and help. Lots of it was offered, but that's the fundamental problem with our
01:08:17
system. Would that be your hope with JonBenét's case? Like who In a perfect world, who
01:08:22
would you want to take over? Well, you know, early on, we didn't care who had it. We just wanted it out of the
01:08:27
police hands because we knew they were A focused on us and B incompetent. Give it to the sheriff's department.
01:08:33
Give it to We didn't care. Just get it out of their hands because they're not capable.
01:08:38
Uh we would like the evidence to be turned over to the FBI. And let the FBI run with the evidence.
01:08:45
Do some additional DNA testing. So, where do you think the evidence is? Do they still have it? What do you What
01:08:52
do you think is still can be tested? What What can we pull this from? Well, we were told We We know from
01:08:58
looking at reports and stuff early on in January '97 there were a number of items sent into a
01:09:05
lab. Some were returned untested. Don't know why. Whether it's a cost issue or they had a
01:09:13
sample, they did get a sample of what they tested. Maybe they decided that's good enough. I don't know.
01:09:19
We want those other items tested. We want the items that had previously been tested
01:09:26
uh 15 years ago and more recently retested. Developing a a different this new format
01:09:33
that's needed to do the genealogy research. That's what we're asking. So, we as far
01:09:38
as we know, there's items that are crime scene evidence that was taken from the crime scene, sent to a lab, and was
01:09:43
never tested. It seems pretty straightforward. Like, what do you what do you feel is
01:09:49
Cuz to me, on the outside, I'm like, why wouldn't Boulder want to solve its biggest case?
01:09:53
There's only two logical reasons. One is they've lost the evidence, which I hope isn't true,
01:10:01
or two, they're protecting somebody that is very very That's a silly number two.
01:10:09
But I can't think of any other reason. They've lost the evidence. Do you feel like I mean, you're somebody
01:10:16
who has like amazing connections and you have and, you know, political pull. Like
01:10:25
do you feel like there's anything that you can do or you like you've tried it all? Like, where We've tried a lot.
01:10:30
We've We petitioned the attorney general in Colorado. We petitioned the governor.
01:10:34
This is early on, to meet with us, and they wouldn't meet with us. You think this would be a great case for
01:10:39
someone to I mean, if they're going to at least work the system, you solve the JonBenét Ramsey case.
01:10:45
Well, you'd think so. And I've told I Boulder's had five police chiefs since this happened.
01:10:50
Have you met with the newest one yet? Yeah. Does he say anything about whether they
01:10:54
have the evidence, don't have the evidence? Are you waiting for challenged him on did you have you lost
01:10:59
it? What do you mean, John? Well, I've got another meeting coming up. Yeah. Well, the first meeting I
01:11:05
was trying to be a nice guy and not jump all over him. He was a new guy to his job, I liked him.
01:11:11
Uh we had a nice conversation and it's like I need to What does he What does he say like where does he say it
01:11:16
stands? Well, he says there's things happening I can't tell you about and I think DNA
01:11:21
testing isn't there yet. We want to wait. And I totally disagree with the last comment. We're going to ask the hard
01:11:29
question. Have you and you didn't lose it. You You're the new guy. It's not your fault, but is the
01:11:35
evidence still in your possession? Where is it? And if it's not there, what what does that make you think?
01:11:44
Well, it it it confirms my opinion that the Bullet Police was a pretty dysfunctional
01:11:52
uh organization for years. Frankly, I mean it's just over for you guys? Like Well, that's a huge thing, yeah, to have
01:12:01
lost If that's the case, because we have the technology in my opinion privately to do
01:12:09
testing that I think I really believe has a good chance of leading to the answer.
01:12:16
Do you think it's someone whether you recognize them or not, someone that would have had some kind of interaction
01:12:22
with your daughter before? Well, I think I think the person been in our house before.
01:12:28
No question. Uh we have this car guy Mark Carr. We've had two people that said, "Well, I
01:12:40
saw that guy around you. Mhm. I know it's him. Our house We had a lady that would come
01:12:47
into our little house up in Michigan and clean it once in a while. Before we got there,
01:12:53
and she called after he became public and said, "That guy was in your garage uh this past summer." How do you make
01:13:02
sense of that if the DNA Well, I don't know. I don't know. Um Does that mean you go back and
01:13:09
question the DNA? Well, I asked Lou that question. I said, "Do you believe that this is the killer's DNA for sure?"
01:13:16
He said, "Yes, I believe that." Okay. So, okay. Based on that? Well, the other thing she
01:13:22
said was I when I was in your home that day, somebody had been staying in JonBenét's
01:13:29
room. There was a suitcase open, and obviously somebody was staying there. I thought
01:13:38
you'd given someone permission to Mhm. stay in your home. Didn't think anything of it.
01:13:44
When this guy came out, she said, "I saw him in the garage." And then she told us
01:13:48
about somebody staying in our home. I said, "No, we didn't give anyone permission to stay in our home."
01:13:53
And why would they have picked JonBenét's room? If you're going to If you're going to squat in a house, you
01:13:57
wouldn't have picked that room. It's second floor, way in the back. You couldn't get out of there easily if
01:14:03
you were caught. I think new testing is going to be important. I don't know if you have
01:14:07
thoughts or feelings on Have you seen all the stuff that's been happening with like the Colorado state lab?
01:14:12
Yeah. Do you have any concerns? So, Missy Woods, I believe is her name. She's been accused of like falsifying I
01:14:20
mean like 600 and some cases between like 2008 and 2023. They're looking at even older cases.
01:14:26
Mhm. Are you Is this something that you've talked to anyone in authority about? Like do you
01:14:31
have concern that it affects the testing that you guys had done? We were told Our attorneys looked into
01:14:38
it. And they're still They're still working on the case for us at for free. They don't charge us. They're so
01:14:44
committed to getting this right at They said she did not She was not involved in our testing." That's good.
01:14:50
back then. So, okay. Um So, that's the information we have. good. What's it going to take to do new
01:14:59
testing? Well, what we want We were told probably a year or so ago. Now, it's been over a year. At that
01:15:07
time, we met with just accidentally met the head of the FBI region there. And he said, "Look,
01:15:16
the government, we, the FBI, certainly not Boulder, not CBI, do not have the latest DNA technology
01:15:24
yet." And who said that? The chief of police. Cuz they got a new one, right? Or is
01:15:28
this the last one? The current one. Yeah. Get the evidence into their hands. And let's see what they come up with.
01:15:36
They have also the ability to do the genealogy research, create this family tree.
01:15:41
Even to give you, I mean, the phenotyping that they can do to answer the question of, "Okay, we know it's a
01:15:46
male profile, but is it a white man?" Right. Is it not? I don't know what else to do.
01:15:52
But if they don't do that, then that's unacceptable. That's ridiculous. It's there.
01:15:59
Can be done. We've had I've offered to pay for it. I don't know what the issue is. I really
01:16:05
don't know why they won't do all that can be done. Have to ask some questions of them. Yeah.
01:16:10
That'd be We're going to get a little more hard-nosed in our next meeting. First question be,
01:16:19
"Do you have the evidence? Be honest. Have you lost it? Where is it? Who has it?"
01:16:25
Sounds like a good next step. Yeah. Right now, in my mind, that's the key question. Why Where is it? If you're not
01:16:32
going to test it, why? It's baffling. Absolutely baffling to me. And you know, maybe it's down to
01:16:41
police departments don't like to admit they've been wrong or they screwed up and
01:16:46
I can't believe that with the new police chief. I mean he didn't cause that problem. He didn't
01:16:51
mess it up. Do you think they're afraid of opening themselves up to litigation? Possibly.
01:16:58
Very possibly. Do you think you would sue them or are you I I looked I explored that early on
01:17:05
because we were again told they knew it was they knew it was one of the parents.
01:17:08
Had to be one of the parents. Always the parents. Mhm. And that's a flawed conclusion but
01:17:13
There's no one theory that makes everything make sense. No, not really. I don't know. Lou said
01:17:18
this is a DNA case. It'll be solved by DNA, period. And uh that's why this testing is so important.
01:17:28
I don't know. You know, we used I mean I used to Patsy when we'd travel carried took always packed a blue dress
01:17:37
dark blue dress that she was going to wear at the press conference when JonBenét's killer was found.
01:17:47
We were hopeful, confident that that would happen. And she eventually quit packing the blue dress.
01:17:57
Somebody asked me the day do you think JonBenét's killer would be found in your lifetime?
01:18:02
I'm not so confident now at all. I think eventually they will be found Mhm. or identified.
01:18:13
But maybe not in my lifetime. Given the fact that there's no movement in the government to do the right thing.
01:18:23
If they do it I think there's a I don't know. Pretty good possibility that we could find the killer. I really
01:18:32
know the killer may be dead, may be who knows, but this forensic genealogy research is
01:18:39
amazing. And eventually that won't be available because the privacy advocates will Mhm.
01:18:45
will fuss. Mhm. They're already fussing, but so far so good, you know, but so that can't you can't wait on that
01:18:51
forever cuz eventually you won't have police will not have access to that. And my my data is in the
01:19:00
public database. You know, I just paid my $25 to see who my relatives were. Mhm.
01:19:07
So it's my But did you submit it to Jed Match? That's a different thing. No, I don't know what that What's that?
01:19:12
So this is my this is my advocacy I always tell people. Um so like certain uh like Ancestry and 23andMe, they're no
01:19:19
longer available to law enforcement. So people actually have to submit their DNA
01:19:22
to Jed Match. So most people don't and so uh you actually have to download your results and submit it to Jed Match. Jed
01:19:28
Match is the one that law enforcement can access. So there there actually is this big
01:19:32
issue where people think they've done it and they actually haven't, which would which could build up the database in a
01:19:38
really meaningful way. So Wow, I didn't know that. I thought those were still available. Yeah. That's a big problem.
01:19:45
Yeah. What's it called? Jed Jed Match, GED. Jed Match. Okay. Do you feel like you'll always have the
01:19:53
indictment kind of hanging over you until there's someone else who's indicted? Sure.
01:20:01
Yeah, I mean it's always going to be it's an unknown. Can what can they is there any like does
01:20:07
that mean anything now? Like could somebody say, "Oh, we we have this indictment from
01:20:12
30 years ago. We can still go charge John." Or would they have to get a new grand jury indictment? Like is it I I
01:20:17
don't know how scary of a looming thing that Yeah, I I I don't know. The grand jury,
01:20:21
as I'm told, you can convict a ham sandwich in a grand jury. It's a one-sided argument.
01:20:26
Right. It's it's easy to get an indictment. It is. It's just the prosecution's case. But you guys you
01:20:32
guys weren't asked to even speak at that, were you? I I offered to do that. Yeah.
01:20:36
And they they didn't ask me or subpoena me. My children were interviewed by the by the grand jury. Burke
01:20:44
was interviewed. Melinda, my daughter, who was pregnant at the time, was brought into Colorado to be interviewed
01:20:49
by the grand jury. So their attorneys were present with them. It's strange it's so strange they would interview
01:20:55
everyone but you. I know. And I offered I said, "Let me know." And I think they were afraid that I
01:21:04
think people think it's calculated. Like I think that's the thing that nobody's like saying or people even you know, in
01:21:08
the depths of the internet are saying is like it feels like there's someone pulling the strings.
01:21:14
We had no rights. Please the only right the only requirement they had was to talk to us once a year
01:21:23
on our case. That by law they had to do that. And first time we asked for that meeting
01:21:28
they said, "Well, jeez, we don't know how to do this exactly. You're a suspect and you're a victim."
01:21:35
This Homicide Victims Family Rights Act gives families like us the right under law
01:21:45
to get the case out of the police hands if they're not doing their job. Well, they haven't done their job.
01:21:50
What I read is that if after 3 years it's still a cold case you can submit to have a federal review.
01:21:56
Yeah. Well, I thought about that a bit of the like this law this federal law. Look at
01:22:01
that that could be Jamison's law. If it advanced the cause it'd be good. But I'm not
01:22:10
looking for that kind of memorialization of her, but you want to be sure your your home is safe. As safe as it could
01:22:16
be for your family. Um we were naive we were foolish, naive. We thought we lived in a safe community.
01:22:25
We didn't check the door locks. We didn't set the alarm. Who in the world would come into the
01:22:29
house when we're there? If they came in when we're gone, steal the silverware. Okay, whatever.
01:22:35
Never ever thought someone would come into our home when we're there and take our child from her bed.
01:22:41
But it happens. And your home's got to be a sanctuary. A safe sanctuary, safe as you can make
01:22:49
it. Are you doing anything to get this uh Victims' Families' Rights Act pushed through to Colorado?
01:22:54
Well, I just found out about Okay. Uh and I I I've Yeah, I've I I've got to do that. If
01:23:02
that's the one thing if anything could I've always said, "How What could we do to change the system?" The system's
01:23:07
screwed up big time. Yeah. So, I I don't know how to fix it. These 18,000 little
01:23:13
independent jurisdictions of authority with no higher authority, no ability to bring in the big guns when a child's
01:23:21
murdered. It's stupid. Makes no sense. But what could I do to to affect it? And I Early on I was advocating DNA testing
01:23:33
for anyone arrested for a felony. Mhm. It's always come back to how do you how do you make these little islands of
01:23:40
authority like Boulder Mhm. able or willing to accept the power of our country to solve cases
01:23:49
like ours, the murder of a child. And so I then I was I got to think, "Well, let's make the murder of a child a
01:23:59
federal offense, just like a bank robbery." That seemed very logical. Did you make
01:24:04
any headway with it? Well, I met with the Department of Justice, and they said, "Well, that's
01:24:09
going to be a tough sell because we don't have The federal government doesn't have that
01:24:14
uh Lexus, I think he called it, to have even that authority to try to do that, Mhm. to overstep state law.
01:24:23
He so that's going to be a tough So now this is your new mission? So my new mission, I learned about this just
01:24:29
recently, and I'm retired now, so I got the time to do it, is I met, again, a Department
01:24:36
of Justice federal Department of Justice fellow uh that pushed the federal government to enact a
01:24:47
homicide victims family rights act. Are you going to focus at cuz I know Biden signed it into law in 2021 federally,
01:24:53
but you're quite not in a state. Yeah. Are you going to focus on Colorado or JonBenét's case?
01:24:58
Well, what it gets down to, and the and the DOJ fellow said, "Look, it's easy. It's boilerplate. Here's the law,
01:25:06
Mr. Senator, state senator, put your name at the top, vote on it, send it, you're done. That's
01:25:13
all you got to do. It's real simple. Colorado would be a tough sell, I think, because
01:25:23
politicians don't want to be involved in her case. Mhm. It's like a tar baby. If I touch
01:25:28
it, I'm tainted. The media'll come. The media's been brutal. Would you advocate for it in another state?
01:25:35
Sure. Mhm. Um and I I said I literally just found out about this recently, and I've got to
01:25:42
do it, but I think that's a purpose I could get behind. advocate and get behind, and maybe make
01:25:48
a diff make make maybe make a difference, but it's going to take uh like I don't know any politicians in
01:25:54
Colorado. Um they probably don't know me, but I I don't know them. But, and maybe that's a
01:26:03
good place to start. What do you think JonBenét's legacy is? She was kind of the spark plug of her
01:26:13
family. I mean, and uh you know, My minister told me early on, he said, "Look, memories for a while are going to
01:26:24
bring pain, but eventually they'll bring joy." And to a large extent I found that that
01:26:31
you've been able to get past the pain period and memories make you smile. And uh
01:26:38
I still get tugged my heart gets tugged when I see a little girl hanging on her dad's hands walking down the street.
01:26:46
Uh you know, that hurts, but uh I remember the neat things about Johnnie Mae, the
01:26:54
fun things. You know, I believe that she's in heaven. I don't understand heaven. I don't have
01:27:00
a my brain isn't capable of comprehending what that is. But you know, I I did get
01:27:11
one reassurance that life wasn't over for her in that respect. She had won this little medal
01:27:22
in one of her little contests, beauty contest. And I used to tell her, "Look, it doesn't matter if you're the
01:27:27
prettiest or whatever. Your little talent makes is what you should concentrate on."
01:27:33
And she was a singer and always with vigor, but sometimes off-key. It wasn't but she was, you know, boom. And
01:27:45
she had her last little event was a couple weeks before she died and I was late to get there.
01:27:56
But I always tried to go to watch her little talent thing. And she came running up to me and said,
01:28:01
"Dad, Dad, I won this for you." And it was a medal and it was all talent winner.
01:28:07
And she gave me that little medal and I wore it around my neck. And when she died
01:28:15
in my mind I wanted to get that metal back. It was in her house. Um but I didn't tell anybody. I just in my
01:28:25
mind is that's the one thing I wanted John Bonet's that I can keep physically. And
01:28:34
Pam, Patsy's sister went to her house on a week later to get us some clothes cuz we we just laughed
01:28:41
we didn't have any clothes to wear or anything. And she said I went to the house, police were kind of
01:28:46
rude but I I felt drawn to go into John Bonet's room. And I felt like I should bring you this.
01:28:56
And she opened her hand and it was a metal. And her room was full of stuff, you know, how she would bring this little
01:29:03
round about the size of a silver dollar metal and feel like I should felt like I
01:29:09
should bring this to you. And I just I could have cried cuz it's like John Bonet knew I wanted that
01:29:16
somehow. So there's more to life than we see here. Thank you, John. Well, you're welcome, Ashley.
01:29:24
I'll make sure the stuff that we talked about, again, the the legislation that you're doing,
01:29:29
the petition to get the DNA sent out. I'll make sure everyone has the information for that. And you know,
01:29:34
we've got this Netflix thing coming out that everyone will watch and I think everyone is going to have an eye on
01:29:39
Boulder. Well, that's the objective. Yeah. This boys, this isn't going to go away.
01:29:45
We're going to be your worst nightmare till you do your job. All eyes on Boulder. Yep.