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This episode contains mentions of graphic or sensitive material that may be triggering. Listener discretion is
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advised. Hi everyone and welcome back to the show made by the crime junkie Ashley Flowers
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for those who are crime junkie AF. I'm so excited cuz I'm back with a very special guest for you.
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Many cases that end up in the headlines are also some of the most mysterious ones leaving unanswered questions like
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who did it and why did they do it? And when these cases go cold, investigators will often seek assistance from crime
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assessment specialists and profilers in an effort to fill in those blanks to answer the why and the who.
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So, we are bringing in one of the best crime assessment specialist around. He's spent over 20 years with the
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Pennsylvania State Police with his last duty assignment as unit supervisor of the criminal investigation assessment
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unit. He's also lectured for law enforcement. He is currently bleed expert at the Sherry Black Foundation.
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Should I also mention that he is no stranger to the crime junkie verse exploring cases alongside of me. I'm
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obviously talking about Patrick Zip Zerpoli. Welcome. I'm pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be here. Uh this isn't
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our first rodeo. It is not. We've had many rodeos. Many rodeos. before. Uh we were just talking my brother was
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in the studio a second ago. I I met you back when I was a baby podcaster. Yes. You were you the little
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girl with the backpack. That's exactly what you were to me. And I and it's funny that's how I still see you. I
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still see you sitting in the back of the room when we were at Purdue teaching and
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that's the first time I met you and you were just brand new to this scene and you're just starting up.
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Yeah, I was I weaseled my way into a law enforcement crime assessment training. You did and you made Richard Walter mad
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too to be honest with you cuz he's like what's that little girl doing in this room? I'm like
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why is she here? These are secrets we can't let her know. I went to two of those trainings.
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And then you and I have you've been wonderful and helped us kind of work on a number of cases. So you if people have
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listened to our shows, you did an assessment on the Pelley case for CounterClock.
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Yes. Um we worked on Darlene Hults together for Deck Investigates. So I mean we've done this once or twice. We
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have and you know what? I like this collaboration with you because it just kind of brings in a whole different
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world for me. Like I came to see you live in Philly. Um which was like there these crime junkies They're for real.
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They are for real. Like I was like I was sitting there with my wife like I was like oh my gosh look at these people
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here. And and you know you and I have we did a live show last year on the Sherry
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Black case. We did the Sherry Black case again as a podcast and I just I I think we have a great
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relationship and like I said you're you're still that little girl to me that I met however many years ago. But you're
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still true to that and I think that's a big thing. Oh thanks. So and true to your passion I
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guess. And do you want to talk about the so you're with the or not exclusively but you work a lot with
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the Sherry Black Foundation right now. I do. Yeah. And you mentioned the Sherry Black case
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was one that we covered. We did an episode on the deck about it. We did kind of a live show together.
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What what's your work with the Sherry Black Foundation? What is the foundation set out to do? Well
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and I'll go back to the to the case itself. First off Sherry Black is the mother of Heidi
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Miller. The Millers are the wealthiest family in Utah. And you know when you live in the ivory tower all of a sudden
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horrific horrible things happened to them and they're Heidi's mother was brutally murdered and you know that.
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So they even before the case was solved I had the opportunity to work on the case for years but they created this
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foundation to teach law enforcement and to work on other cases. Like we do a lot
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of consultation on other cases. So they pay me to go just go and help other law enforcement and
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that's kind of the crux of all what we're doing plus the the training side of it also.
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Which I love because I think one of the things if I recall correctly is this happened in an area where they didn't
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see that kind of crime. I mean you I mean you said it was brutal and that's an understatement. And instead of just
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being angry, I think it like it's very inspiring to see a family who said okay let's not be angry that these small
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departments don't know what they're doing. Let's try and go teach them. And so is it it's kind of been my
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understanding that the mission has been to go like let's go take this training to the people who may never see this
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case. I think that's something you said in the training. Like you may never see this in your whole career but the one
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time you do you'll know what you're looking at. I always that's what you said that when I when we started I just
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finished teaching three days at Purdue for law enforcement and that's my very first comment. You know I'm going to
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show you things that again you may never see before. They're horrific. They're horrible but when you see it at 2:00 in
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the morning you've already seen it before and you understand what you're looking at and I think that's the big
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purpose of all of that. And I tell everybody it's not a PG show. It's a and you know that you sat through. It's a
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rated R show if not worse than that. So but but again it's it's getting them to understand you know evil lives where we
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live and people and some of these big cases that we've seen through the years people don't want to wrap their head
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around that and people don't want to understand hey evil lives down the street from me and that's what we try to
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get people to understand and try to really open their minds to that and it's not always the wandering psychopath.
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That's what we want it to be but it's never you know when it you really comes down to brass tax like the offender in
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the Sherry Black case was 19 years old when he committed the crime and I said that in 2012 that he was a young kid and
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he ended up being 19 when he committed the crime. So you know it's we have to understand that. We have to understand
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and and kind of it's interesting because you want to understand the mannerisms and the behavior of the offender from
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the evidence at the scene. So that's what we kind of really push at people. So And
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the other thing that you always say too is like it's a lot cuz it's a lot to take in. I've taken the class twice and
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I if I took it a third time I would probably still pick up something that I didn't get the first time before but
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like you want people to know who to call cuz you're like I'd rather be there day
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one than 20 years later looking at pictures. Yes. Call pick up the phone and call me.
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Like I tell everybody that all the time. Like you send me an email, give me a call. It doesn't matter. Like we want to
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help you solve it now versus come in and I've I've I was I've been asked hey will
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you call these people and go help them with their case and I we don't do that. You call me I'll come if it's your case
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but I'm not going to call you and say hey can I come work on your case? And you know some of those things if you
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call within those you know first week or first two weeks and we get involved we can move it down the road a lot quicker
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you know and so it doesn't go unsolved. Give me a a little history on uh Patrick
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Zerpoli. LIKE HOW DID YOU HOW DID YOU you've always know this is what you wanted to do? Did you wake up
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like as a kid and were you playing cops and robbers or like No it's it's funny because
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you know I went graduated high school, went in the military, went in the Marine Corps and
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came out and I actually applied to the New Jersey State Police because I lived in New Jersey at the time.
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And you know Pennsylvania State Police and Pennsylvania Department of Corrections all at the same time. So
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Pennsylvania Department of Corrections called first so I'm like I need a job. I'm going to go work for them. I'll take
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it. I'm in. So I worked for them for a minute like a two two years give or take.
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Was it just like natural coming out of the Marines like that you stayed in law enforcement?
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My father was was a local police officer in New Jersey he he got hurt on the job and he retired
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in the mid-70s but it was always an interest to me. You know I and I think it's all about public service. Like I've
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I've been a public servant since I've been 18 years old. So between the military, you know, Department of
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Corrections, the State Police and even what I do now and I think that's a big piece of it. Like in
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what I do now I just kind of fell into this. Like this wasn't oh I want to be an expert in crime assessment and sexual
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sadism and all of these other crazy things. dreaming of that as a kid? No I wasn't dreaming I don't think
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anybody does. They end up in a different a different path. they do. They end up doing life
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somewhere. They're in life in prison somewhere. So but like and I kind of just fell into that. I fell into that.
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You know when I got in the State Police you know everyone starts in uniform and then you know the crime side of it
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really started to that was where my interest lied. So I kind of focused on that.
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or did you like did you get involved with a particular case or Well you know what? At the beginning of my career when
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I first went in the in the crime unit in the criminal investigation unit I I worked a lot of child abuse cases. So I
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was an I I'm an expert in child abuse. In in investigating child abuse and after we had the whole scandal with Penn
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State in Pennsylvania, I helped rewrite all of the laws on child abuse and that really like being able to do that and
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just helping the most innocent was really a big thing to me and then it just kind of developed from there. Um
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you know when I got into the criminal investigation assessment unit and then became the supervisor of the unit. So I
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just kind of grew and I had the that opportunity to meet Richard Walter and meet Bob Keppel and you know Bob Ressler
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and really learn from them and and become who I am. So So you didn't invent crime assessment. It's been a thing.
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It's a thing. It's been a thing for a long time. It's been a thing since probably I always tell everybody one of
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the very first people they did a an assessment on was Hitler back in the 30s and the 40s. Like they assigned a whole
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unit to do a crime do an assessment on him a psychological profile on him, and that's where it really started. Then it
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comes up through the '50s, you know, they used it on the Boston Strangler, Metsky who was doing the bombings in New
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York, they they used crime assessment and criminal profiling on him. Um and then the FBI kind of picked it up
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in the '70s with the serial killers, with Bundy and people like that. Interesting, I didn't know that. Yeah.
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Yeah. So what's the difference you you tell me there is a difference between crime assessment and profiling. I feel
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like everyone knows profiling, I mean it's like it's literally mainstream TV. But there is a difference, right?
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It is. The the big difference between the two is profiling is psychological and crime assessment is evidence-based.
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So what we do is we look at the evidence at the scene. Um and I tell people this all the time.
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Like you know, when we break it down into different categories, but everyone has mannerisms about themselves.
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Everyone has behavior that that that kind of grows with them and develops with them through through life. And
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those behaviors come out when they commit a crime. And that's what we look for in the evidence, what's there,
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what's not there, you know, why is something like this in a lot of cases is why is that person the victim? Like why
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did they choose this person versus somebody else to do this to? So and it's really evidence-based that we go off of
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what we see at the crime scene or don't see. And it's not like like if you look at some of the older profiling, like
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they're given, you know, hey, we think this is a you know, a white male and they're given an age and some of these
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other things. We don't go down there. Like I always say and you know this, I can get you into the right church, I can
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get you into the right pew. It's your job to figure out which one of those five people did this. And that's what it
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comes down to. So. So why do you, if you will, give the Crime Junkies maybe a a crash course?
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Crash course, here. Crime Junkies University, that's what we're going to have here. So.
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Crime assessment 101. 101. I I I think I think the what I sat through twice was like a
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multi-day seminar. Uh we've got 1 to 2 hours. Teaches everything we need to know.
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Yeah. I'm going to solve crime tomorrow. Um so I and I'll start and like I always
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tell everybody, um Richard Walter, Bob Keppel, those guys are really big about um the titles of these different things,
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the titles of the subtypes. I'm not. I'm very big about understanding that there's differences between these
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individuals. So when we start looking at crime and looking to how to break things
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down, we start with organized and disorganized. The FBI calls it planned and unplanned now, but still the same
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thing. You know, is the is the crime scene organized? Does it seem that this person had a plan when they came there
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to commit this crime and they're able to carry that plan out? Um or is it disorganized where it's just kind of
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knee-jerk reaction, opportunistic type thing. going to say, is that is is that the
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difference between premeditated and not premeditated? And that's exactly what it comes down
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to. Is the crime planned or is it unplanned? Do I just knock on your door and you end up being that right person
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at the right time I'm going to do this to. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but now all of a sudden they
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knock on Ashley Flowers' door and I'm like, oh yeah. And I'm going to commit that crime. So that's the difference and
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you can see it and it and it plays out in the evidence at the crime scene. You know.
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Because if it's if it's organized, if I'm organized, I'm going to bring a weapon with me. I'm going to make sure I
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have everything I need with me to commit that crime. I'm not going to hope that you have duct tape. I'm not going to
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hope that you have a knife that I can use. So we start looking at those things, you know, does the does the
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offender bring things with him and leave with those things or does he get them from the scene and leave them at the
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scene? They're two big and again, it's it's the difference between planning it and all and and not being planned. So we
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start breaking it down like that and like I I I always tell everybody we kind of silo things. We start, you know, and
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it's it's weighted. Um the the the difference the problem is, you know, for years people have always said to me,
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hey, create me a checklist. Create me a checklist so I can now just check these things off and I can figure out what it
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is at the end of the day. But the problem is this is thinking man's game. Like you'll have it has to
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be weighted. You'll have the aspects of the crime scene that may be organized, but
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other things are disorganized, which is the the overwhelming one. Is it organized or disorganized? So
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um and and it really like I always tell people it's a thinking man's game. It's not, you know, you can just check off
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boxes and say this is what this is. So. Interesting. Does um how does the you you had said
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that the person or who they choose can also tell you something about them? So like how do you how do you view
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victimology? Well, I mean victimology is probably one of the most important things to do. Um we we look at two
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different things, victimology and then the sucks the suspect themselves, what it takes to commit the crime. Is it high
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risk or low risk for him to commit the crime? But you know, we always take a step back and say why is that person the
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victim? When I ran Ambler in Pennsylvania, um I always stepped back and looked at that. Why is it the
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5-year-old, not the 12-year-old if they're both at the same location at the same time? Um so we always look at
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victimology as far as what how does that person become a victim? You know, and and they you kind of break them down
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into low risk victim, moderate, and then a high risk victim. And you know, are they do they have behaviors themselves
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that put them in at risk of being a victim of a crime? So we really try to look at that as far as the victimology.
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And then a lot of cases that we look at and we get involved in and all and you know, you know, the
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Sherry Black case, the Delphi case, Kohlberger, um they're all low risk victims. You
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wouldn't expect them to become the victims of those violent crimes, but they do. So it's it speaks volumes about
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then the offender and that high risk that the offender has to take to commit the crime.
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So what you there are within the crime assessment, there are four types of offenders. Four subtypes, yes, of
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offenders. Yes. What's the difference between a type and a subtype? Nothing. Cool.
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I just got the word wrong. You just got the word wrong. What are the four subtypes?
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We can look at this in in I I always tell people just when I was teaching at Purdue, I told them the same thing.
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Behavior in all these subtypes apply to every crime. It just doesn't apply to violent crime, it applies to theft, it
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applies to everything we see and it just applies to just human nature. Like criminal behavior mimics normal human
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behavior. The only difference is it's criminal. That's it. Like, you know, if you're an organized person, like you're
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I was just in your office. You're an ultra-organized person. If I go in your office and there's stuff all over the
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place and it's a mess and you're a disorganized person, if you commit a crime, it's going to be the same thing.
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So that mannerism is going to come out in in when you commit a crime. So when we look at the subtypes themselves, it's
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really power subtypes and anger subtypes, whichever the crime. And you can have spikes into
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anger, but you know, the first one is power assertive, meaning that normal guy want to have control. We all
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know people like that. Um want to be in control all the time, macho, um kind of acts like that. And that that mannerism
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and that that that individuality will come out in the crime scene. And come out in the victim selection, come out in
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all of that. So um then we have the power reassurance, which is kind of a fantasy-driven
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individual. So I'm going to fantasize about doing things and and this is where like our child abusers sit, this is
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where our child abductors sit in this fantasy side of things where I'm going to fantasize about doing this. And when
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I actually come into reality to commit the crime, it's never the same. Like it's great in my head, but
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now in real life, it kind of falls apart. Um and then it spikes into that that homicide or that violent crime
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piece. Why is it called power reassurance? Because they want to be the power assertive guy, but they have to do
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it through fantasy. That's why it's reassurance. That's why they call power reassurance. So that's the difference
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between the two. They kind of sit in the same thing, but one is just I'm I'm and
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again, this is where like our people who commit domestic violence, things like that sit in that power side of it, but
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the other guy, it's more fantasy-driven. Like you'll see, you know, postmortem mutilation, you'll see, you know,
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postmortem sexual acts happen with those power reassurance person. Because hey, you're cool. I fantasize about doing X,
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Y, and Z with you, but once I'm in face-to-face with you, you're kind of scary. So I'm going to wait until after
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you're deceased. And then even with child abusers, like a lot of the times you're not going to have them actually
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like have sexual intercourse with a child. You're going to have them abuse them and then masturbate later
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fantasizing about what they did. So um so it's kind of that difference between that. And the big thing and like I'm
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very big about you have to understand it because when you interview these people and you talk
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to these people, you can't come in there and be appalled by anything they say. Like I'm good with everything. I really
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am um because of that. Because I want to make sure if I go in an interview room with somebody
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Can't look shocked. Can't look shocked. I'm good. Do you know what I mean? And usually when I get
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in a in a in a conversations with offenders like this, I always lead that conversation because
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I understand it. So I can explain to them why they did it. I can explain to them what they did and this is the
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reason why you did it. So. How are you actually good after the conversation? Is it like a lot of Jack Daniels or like
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A lot of a lot of good Irish whiskey. That's what it I mean you just you know, it's funny
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because like I've I've gotten very good at like separating myself from it. I I got very good about putting my emotions
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to the side and being able to focus on that task at hand. And like for me, it goes back to that public service. I want
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to if I can get that person off the street now before he commits 20 other crimes, that's what my goal is, you
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know, and I want to get them as soon as possible and get them locked up. So, that's always my goal. And for me and I
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always tell everybody and I just said this when I was teaching, that confession is the golden nugget. Having
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them confess to you what they did is is that is the golden nugget of all of it, you know. So, I think that to me is
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another big piece of it that I want people to tell me what they did. It's what I say about like even doing
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this, people ask, you know, this is a on a far smaller scale, but like how do you
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talk about true crime all day every day? And I say that I I couldn't do it if I didn't feel like I was making the world
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a better place because of it, but it still like gets to you, doesn't it? Like how did you how have you done this for
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this long and not been like, oh, the world's a place I should give up on? Yeah, that's why I want to move to
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Italy. That was our conversation last night. give up Yeah. So, I I I don't know. I I
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guess I just set it aside. I understand how evil people are, but I look at it from the victim side of it. I look at
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the victim's family side of it. I want to, you know, like with the with the Millers. Um
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and you know them, nicest people in the world. They really are, you know, and they this tragedy came to them and I I
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said to them the very first time I met them, I'm not here for you. I'm here for Sherry Black.
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Mhm. And I don't care who you are. Um because it's all about them. It's all about the victims and it's all about
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doing right by the victims and and we know that in society when we're dumping almost, you know, 8, 9,000 unsolved
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cases into that huge number every year, every victim deserves something. Every victim deserves to have their case
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looked at and you know, and it's it's funny like I just was teaching and you know, day two, the analysts from the
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Indiana State Police were like, oh, here's a case for you. Um can you look at this for us? And like and I don't
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have a problem with that. I probably have 10 cases sitting at home that I have to get to when I get home, but it's
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hoping that I can just move it a little bit further down the road, you know, and
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then be able to and and I do. I I really have trained myself and learned to kind
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of just all set it aside, you know, I've seen horror, I've seen horrible, horrible things and you just learn to
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just put it to the side and you don't don't dwell on it. So. Some people are built for it.
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Yeah. You're wired for it. Yeah. You're wired to be able to do this. Like and we
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always talk about like even, you know, when we we taught sexual sadism at the American Academy of Forensic Science and
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I said the same thing there. Like if you get in the room, you have to be wired to
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be able to talk to one of those guys. You have to be wired the right way to be able to talk to a Ted Bundy or or or BTK
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or some of those other people because if you're not, you're done, you know, they're going to go up one side of you
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and down the other. So. Speaking of BTK, have you seen he's in the news these days? No.
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Oh, dude, we've got something to talk about in a minute because he's like back in the headlines big time. Oh, really? I
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didn't even they could probably use your help. I actually have a question. So, talking about power reassurance, you you
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talk about that being the fantasy person. We talked about victimology. Something I see like a misconception all
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the time is that people think they'll a perpetrator will have a specific type of victim. Just children, just elderly
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women, just young women. But I've also seen a lot of cases where it can be across the board. It's just someone that
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they can overpower. Is that a power reassurance like someone who's just going to target the elderly or young
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people because they know they can't take someone their own age? Yes, they're vulnerable to them. Like and I always
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tell people like if unless they're diagnosed as a pedophile, like true pedophilia, I'm only sexually attracted
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or attracted to 12-year-old girls. Um they will just go after someone vulnerable. They'll go after someone
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that they can overpower and control. Like we've had people before who will victimize children, but also victimize
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someone who's you know, has a diagnosed with some mental health issues or is 80 years old. So, they'll they'll it's all
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across the board. Um as long as they can overpower that person. Um they're not going to go after someone their own age,
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they're not going to go after someone who might beat them up. They're going to go look for that vulnerable person.
00:24:18
your power reassurance or can they fit in multiple? Well, they can fit in multiple. They really can. But but
00:24:22
really with power reassurance, that's their focus. Their their focus is because they're not that power type
00:24:28
person that they want to the and everything's done through that fantasy script that they want to make sure they
00:24:34
can overpower that person. Like we've had and I've seen in the news before um individuals who have abducted and
00:24:41
murdered children have also attempted that on older women and and didn't complete it because they ended up
00:24:48
beating them up. Um then they're like, oh, no, I got to go back to this over here. So, it's it's the and they learn.
00:24:55
Um you know, all all criminals learn through that life of their of their crimes that they learn from
00:25:01
crime to crime to crime how to better commit things and how to better do things. So. All right, so we have power
00:25:07
assertive, power reassurance. What's the next one? We get into the anger continuum. We get into
00:25:13
So, power and anger is the the reasons everyone kills? Yes. And power and anger are the reasons
00:25:17
all the crimes are committed. Think about that. If I'm going to come to your house and steal your stuff, I'm going to
00:25:22
take control and have power over you by stealing your stuff. So, when we look at
00:25:26
this, really you can you these these power and anger, you can almost put every crime that we see into one of
00:25:33
these two categories. Mhm. You know, when you really take a step back and look at it. And I've done that
00:25:38
before when I first because when I first was was in introduced to this and like I
00:25:44
thought it was silliness and nonsense to be honest with you. It's the truth. Um you know, I listened to Richard Walter
00:25:49
and I'm like, that dude is crazy. Like I don't know what he's talking about, but
00:25:52
then when I took a step back and really looked at it, it's really common sense. Like I tell people like it's it goes
00:25:59
back to the whole Sherlock Holmes thing. Like if I tell you how I got to this answer or my conclusions, you're going
00:26:05
to once I tell you, you're going to be like, oh, that wasn't really that hard. Mhm. Um that's why I don't tell people
00:26:10
how I got to this. I just say this is what it is. So, but but it is power and anger. So, the next ones are anger. The
00:26:16
next ones are anger retaliatory is and we see a lot of spikes into that. Like um
00:26:24
anger is a an emotion and what happens is um when when crimes are committed and and
00:26:30
we call it the paralogical reasoning um that we all have. Like we all have cognition and emotion are intertwined
00:26:37
and that is how you kind of function every day. Um when emotion takes over, actually your IQ comes down um when you
00:26:45
think about it. And think about this. No, it's so true. It is true. Like when have you ever said
00:26:50
something stupid to the person that you loved when you were mad? Absolutely. And
00:26:56
it's all and it's because emotion took over. You know, and I tell people that all the time and we have that same thing
00:27:02
and when crime is committed, that emotion will take over. And that's where anger is and you'll do
00:27:08
things that you never I mean, these anger retaliatory people, you know, will stab someone a hundred times, will do
00:27:15
horrible things and you know, the crime isn't finished until the anger is sated. So, what will happen is you'll
00:27:22
have all of these postmortem injuries because they're still mad. I mean, we had someone who shot his wife
00:27:29
and he was still mad, so he takes her in the basement and beheads her and quarters her. So, that's anger. You
00:27:35
know, we had an Amish gentleman who who stomped his wife to to death and was still mad, so he went and got a butcher
00:27:42
knife and and eviscerated her. Um cut her stomach open and pulled all of her organs out. So, that's anger and that's
00:27:49
what we talk about and that's what you see and that's why it's so important to train these people because when you go
00:27:55
to one of those scenes, you don't want your own emotions to take over. You want to be able to
00:28:02
set all of that aside and look at that case and say, look, same thing happened in Sherry Black. Horrible, horrible
00:28:08
crime scene. You know, stabbed multiple times, you know, postmortem activity happened and
00:28:13
that just overwhelmed everyone and that's why it goes unsolved for so long. So, that's why it for us it's so
00:28:19
important to teach people about this and have them understand. Like and again, evil lives down the road. You know, evil
00:28:27
lives next door. We don't want evil to live in our neighborhood with us, but there's individuals out there who'll do
00:28:32
this. to live in someone's neighborhood. to live in someone's neighborhood, you know, so they got to be there. You know,
00:28:36
and it's it's interesting when you I can come in and look at a case. I can even look at a case from afar not even being
00:28:42
involved in it or really looking at the case and say, hm, I know where that guy's from, you know, just by looking at
00:28:48
the details that may be in the news or looking at the details that someone may tell me about the case, you know, and
00:28:53
these people if you if you're looking in the wrong direction, you're never going
00:28:56
to find the person that you're looking for. So, like and like I said, these anger things and we've all seen crimes
00:29:02
like that. We've all seen where we have these anger crimes where someone I'm mad
00:29:07
and I'm going to come and I'm going to stab you a hundred times or stab you fifty ti- you know, and it's it's it's
00:29:12
overwhelming. It is to see it. Um but you have to be able to again, step back, calm down and look at it
00:29:19
right. So, that's anger retaliatory. Yes. What's the last one? Last one is the the the the top of the mountain.
00:29:27
We're here now is sexual sadism, anger excitation. So, they are your Bundys, your Gacys, individual BTK,
00:29:37
things of that nature. Um that's where those guys sit and it's all about dependence, dread dread and degradation.
00:29:44
It's all about you know, these are guys who will come take you and keep you for 30 days and do horrible horrible things
00:29:51
to you just for their own amusement and pleasure. These are guys who will strangle you just to give you CPR so
00:29:59
they can strangle you again. That's these types of individuals, you know, and they are sexual sadists. And it's
00:30:05
funny because there's like a you know, Richard Walter put together a like a helix or a continuum that these
00:30:11
guys follow this path and kind of the top of that mountain and the ceiling of it all is cannibalism and necrophilia.
00:30:18
So, when we see some of these individuals like we'll use BTK as an example. He didn't kill for 20 years or X amount
00:30:26
of years. Um, but what he did is he practiced autoerotic sex where he would dress
00:30:30
himself up like his victims and take pictures of himself and he was able to fantasize about what he had done before.
00:30:37
Um, because he wasn't He was a sadist and sadist sits here, necrophilia is right above it, cannibalism is above
00:30:43
that. He wouldn't go to necrophilia. You know, he was fine where he was at so he
00:30:49
wouldn't take that next step. But some of them we see out there will take that next step. You know, you have the
00:30:53
Dahmers who will get into cannibalism and they'll take that next step. But but they've come through all of them to get
00:31:00
there. But it's anger that's driving them though. It is anger. Anger at women wanting to have control over women and
00:31:07
men anymore. Um, you know, before it was just because of how society is. Um, you know, if we go back to the 70s
00:31:15
and go back to the 80s it was all like, you know, men would do this and women are always the victims. But now it's can
00:31:20
be anybody. We have a lot of people who, you know, will target young men and target, you know, young females. It
00:31:26
doesn't matter anymore with these sadists. So, and the problem is the internet. Not that it's not a good
00:31:32
thing, but it normalizes this behavior and we have to think about that. Like, if you think about 30 years ago, if I
00:31:40
did this if I if I dressed up like a raccoon every Thursday night to have sex, I would think that was weird. But
00:31:46
if I go on the internet today, we can read all about that. We can we can see all these clubs and all the furriers who
00:31:53
go to Las Vegas and all of these other things and that normalizes that behavior. So that becomes some of these
00:31:58
issues. You know, if you look, I mean there there's BDSM websites. They've made movies about it. So it's really
00:32:05
normalized that that behavior. But you know, a sadist is someone who's going to do that for pleasure. And I always say I
00:32:12
was talking with a a lady a couple years ago and she said that she has a friend um, who practices BDSM and like she
00:32:19
interviews him and she thinks she's an expert in in sadism. And I'm like, well, that's all consensual. You know, the
00:32:26
sadist is going to come knock on your door, drag you to his house and tie you up in the basement for 30 days. That's
00:32:31
the difference between the two. Um, you know, and do horrible horrific things to
00:32:35
you. But like so with the other one with anger retaliatory, you talk about the anger like spiking and so it
00:32:41
takes over controls their cognitive thinking. It seems like this anger excitation they like they're very in
00:32:48
control of themselves. 100% super planned, super organized, are going to and and So you're never going to see a
00:32:55
disorganized anger excitation. No. No. No. When you and you and think about them. Like you know, we have Bundy
00:33:01
who's who's abducting multiple women off the same college campus in the same day.
00:33:06
You know, if you anybody's ever seen his vehicle when it was at the museum in Washington D.C. I think it's in Kentucky
00:33:11
now somewhere. He had the front passenger seat out of it and he had an eye bolt up through the floor. So he can
00:33:17
abduct someone, tie them to the floor and then take them away. So super planned, super organized, will come and
00:33:22
do these horrible things and if they come to your house they're going to take everything with them. They're going to
00:33:26
wash your body, make sure there's no evidence and then move on to the next one. So and that's why they go you know,
00:33:33
it goes unsolved for so long. You know, look at the Golden State Killer. I mean that that's where he sat. You know, and
00:33:40
it took how many years to finally catch him. You know, and even like with BTK it
00:33:44
took a so long to catch him. Bundy was the same way. You know, they just they're so organized and so planned at
00:33:50
what they do that it's so hard to identify and catch them. Do those people normally or do you find that they blend
00:33:57
into society more? They do. Than than the others? They do. They're normal. You look at them like and and look at this.
00:34:03
You know, Bundy had multiple degrees. You know, John Wayne Gacy has pictures taken I think it was with with President
00:34:08
Nixon's wife cuz he was big in the Democratic Party. So a lot of them just blend in and you know, you can think
00:34:13
about that. You know, and all the like you know, BTK worked for the for worked for the government out there doing
00:34:20
something. Um, just kind of blended into society but had this other life that they were living. Wild. And they're
00:34:26
married a lot of them are married. You know, if you look at the bike path killer up in Buffalo, New York, married
00:34:32
for 20 some odd years, happy marriage, wife didn't know anything about it and all of a sudden he's out raping
00:34:38
murdering women. Do they do they always not know anything about it cuz I I feel like there are a lot of times though
00:34:43
where you like when you start peeling back the onion, they're like they're they were they're not very nice husbands
00:34:50
or fathers or Yeah, no. And I think they always you you always get it to they have an inkling. I think something's
00:34:56
wrong and we all know that. Like you work with a bunch of people all the every day. So if something's going wrong
00:35:01
with somebody, their behavior changes, their attitude changes and I think you'll get that. You'll get them saying,
00:35:07
oh, I thought something was wrong but really couldn't put my finger on it. And like you said, you know, when you start
00:35:12
peeling back that onion, um, you know, then all of a sudden And I always tell people like I do a lot of and and did
00:35:18
when I was at the state police, um, work with Department of Corrections and people who work with Department of
00:35:24
Corrections doing bad things with inmates they shouldn't have been doing. Mhm. But every time that comes to light,
00:35:29
all of a sudden you start interviewing people and they're like, oh, I I I could see that. You know, and when they take a
00:35:35
step back and they think about it, they're like, oh, we saw this this this and this which probably led up to that
00:35:40
happening. And we saw that behavior change. So a lot of people can see that in people. They see that behavior change
00:35:46
especially your significant other. Mhm. You know, and and even with you. You know, your
00:35:52
your husband sees your behavior. He knows when you're mad, knows when you're sad, knows when you're happy Yeah, it's
00:35:57
pretty obvious. Yeah, cuz again, it's it's that it's that change of behavior that you have.
00:36:03
So So let's talk about some of the the cases that are in the headlines now. I want you to give me the your assessment
00:36:09
on that. And this first one we've already talked about. But Idaho. Okay. Bryan Kohberger. So we we know who he is
00:36:16
now. Yes. But one of the questions there there has been this why for so long. He goes into
00:36:24
this house where seemingly he knows no one. He kills four kids. And then the strangest part to so many people is that
00:36:33
he walks out of that house, passes one of the other kids that lives there and does nothing to them.
00:36:41
Who is he? I I'm when we start looking at the subtypes and we start trying to place
00:36:48
him in um, and you can even hear it cuz during the interview with that last girl
00:36:52
who heard conversation that he was having about with the last victim, oh, I'm here to help you. I'm going to take
00:36:59
care of things. He's a fantasy driven guy and his fantasy was for that one girl. And I'm going to tell you right
00:37:06
now, you probably wouldn't have had four victims if he got to her first. You would just have one victim. Okay? And I
00:37:12
think the whole thing is as he's there and as he's going through that house, he spikes into anger and he
00:37:18
spikes into that So he started as power reassurance? Yes. Yeah, he is and it spikes into that anger level of it. It
00:37:26
ends up killing three people before he gets to the person and and it could have just been an interaction. He could have
00:37:31
seen that girl one time and she said hello to him and that was all it took. Because they're so fantasy driven.
00:37:37
That's like you. Like if you Is that like me? Is that like me? No. No. No. I'm just I'm saying like this.
00:37:45
But if you say hello to somebody and everyone knows who you are and people and all of a sudden they're like, oh my
00:37:50
gosh, Ashley Flowers said hello to me. I'm now I'm going to build this fantasy about she's wants to be with me just cuz
00:37:56
she was nice to me. And and that's how fantasy driven these people are. Like, oh, this girl said something nice to me.
00:38:02
She wants to be with me and and then he goes and wants to live that out. That's why he's having this conversation with
00:38:09
her at the end. But just happens the other three are just byproducts to get to her. And you can see that. And but
00:38:15
then when we talked before about the anger, once the anger is over with, he's and he sates, he's done. That's why he
00:38:23
walks past the last person. Like why would when I heard that you left a live witness, I'm like, that's the only
00:38:29
explanation there could be is that he spiked into that anger and then once that anger sates, he's good and he walks
00:38:36
out the door and doesn't do anything to her cuz you're leaving a fifth person alive at the scene. Is is this where you
00:38:42
might also see you talked about seeing organized and disorganized together? Is this where you might see that where
00:38:48
he came in organized, came in to do this fantasy, but when he spikes into anger he's all out of sorts?
00:38:53
Yes. And that's what happens here. That's why he leaves the knife sheath. That's why things like that happen
00:38:58
because he spikes into that and when things go out of control, I don't think he planned to have to
00:39:03
interact with all of these other people. And when he did, he just became a disorganized scene and became kind of
00:39:10
all over the place. He didn't plan for that to happen. I planned to be able to go there and get
00:39:14
this girl and that was that was going to be my thing. Um, and you know, it's interesting like
00:39:20
in in for me, um, the why is always the big thing. The why with the crime because and I tell everybody when you
00:39:27
look at an investigation, the why can get you the confession. The why can get you If you understand what happened and
00:39:33
why it happened and you're in that room with that person, you can then explain to them, I understand why you did this
00:39:40
and this is why you did it. So let's just talk about the details of it. So, it's it's super important um because if
00:39:46
you don't have the right why, you're going to go in the wrong direction all the time. So.
00:39:51
What about another big one um that have been in the headlines and I know you are
00:39:54
familiar with this one is Delphi. Oh, I know that case. You know that case a little bit? Yeah, just a little bit.
00:40:00
So, um very interesting case. Um and I'll tell you kind of without I I actually I think I signed my
00:40:08
firstborn away just to look at the case cuz I signed confidentiality agreement I
00:40:12
ever have in my life to look at that case when it was still open. But Well, and I'll I'll say like what's been known
00:40:16
in the public is that two young girls in Indiana, they go for we had we had a makeup snow day or something. It's like
00:40:23
February, it's beautiful outside. They go for a hike in Carroll County, Indiana middle of nowhere. There's Snapchat
00:40:31
pictures of them on this bridge and they go missing. They're and they're found somewhere in that area deceased later
00:40:40
on. And there's actually cell phone picture video audio that one of the girls took in the moments before their
00:40:47
death. All that has been released to date was this grainy picture of a man walking on a bridge. You can see, you
00:40:56
know, his outline. You can't really see his face. He's got a hat. He's got a coat. And then you what police released
00:41:01
of however much video they have was just a tiny clip of the perpetrator telling them to go down the hill.
00:41:09
And for 5 years it went unsolved. And now recently in the last year a man has been arrested.
00:41:18
The only thing that's been released linking him is that there they released now that they found a bullet at the
00:41:24
scene. It was unspent if I'm correct. Yeah. And they it came from or was cycled through a gun that he owns.
00:41:32
Yeah. So, what did that crime without being able to like talk about more than is is
00:41:37
known to the public? I know there's that they actually released more or there's been some defense documents that have
00:41:41
gotten a little more detailed. But was that planned? Was that power? Was that fantasy? Was that
00:41:47
No, that that that's a planned when you look at the whole case, it's a planned attack. And I think it was just whoever
00:41:57
happened upon him at that moment was going to become the victim. I think that's really what happened there. And
00:42:02
it's interesting because I first got introduced to that case right after it happened. We were teaching in Utah and
00:42:09
there was actually two coroners who had come to the training from Indiana. And they're like, will you please go work on
00:42:15
this case? And I said, that's not how this works. They have to call me. I'm not going to call them.
00:42:21
And we we looked at we we talked about the case. And I said from the very beginning that person lives there.
00:42:28
They live in that community just because of the remote location of where this had
00:42:32
happened. And you know, when you go there and I walked the bridge and I walked the crime scene.
00:42:39
Um I would have just stopped on the other side of the bridge not knowing there was
00:42:43
houses 50 yards away. So, whoever did this and you had that intent of taking them even further away cuz they knew
00:42:51
those houses were there. So, that's what we were and you know, that was another one of those cases
00:42:56
where everyone wanted it to be the wandering psychopath. Everyone wanted to be some guy who was driving down the
00:43:01
interstate, stopped on the side of the interstate and just happened upon these girls. And it ends up not being that.
00:43:07
Um and that was I think one of the big things about that case is that you know, super planned, super organized and you
00:43:14
know, it was just ends up being someone from there. Um and you know, who I think you know,
00:43:20
from what everyone's saying was dismissed early on in the investigation um because he was married, because he
00:43:25
had kids of his own. Oh, it can't be that guy. Um and ends up being that guy. Cuz he
00:43:30
came forward like right away, right? And was like, I was on the bridge that day just FYI.
00:43:34
Yeah. It's like and they said and in in in in in in the news they said that like
00:43:37
he comes in like day two or three and he's interviewed and they talk to him. And he says, hey, I was there. I saw
00:43:43
them da da da da da da and you know, and they're like, oh, not you. Let's move on
00:43:47
to someone you know. And that's the shame of it. That's that's the shame of it. When you
00:43:51
look at these things and and when you look at that crime and I won't get into the details, but I I know the why. I
00:43:58
know the overall over what this was all about here. And if you understood that piece of it, you'd be able to pause. And
00:44:06
I always tell people, if when you're investigating a case, if something causes you to pause, it's a problem. So,
00:44:13
same thing there. That would have caused me a pause with this guy and said, well,
00:44:17
let's look at him a little bit better, a little bit more in depth. So. Hm. Let's uh let's circle back. I had
00:44:24
mentioned BTK's in the news. Uh we don't need to talk about his crimes necessarily, but when you think about
00:44:30
him as a perpetrator having having known his crimes, knowing who he is and that he's caught,
00:44:36
they're suspecting now they they've come across some old journal entries and logs and
00:44:42
stuff that had been kept in evidence for a long time that actually might point to
00:44:46
a lot of other victims who are actually just missing people. And the police in I believe Oklahoma are
00:44:54
trying to talk to him. I know his daughter has even gone trying to get him to talk.
00:45:00
What would be the way that someone like that would talk? Obviously, if this is true, he's gone a long time without
00:45:06
saying a word. You know, it's again being able to understand him, being able to understand why he
00:45:12
committed his crimes and and being being all right with that. You're not going to
00:45:15
get the normal cop to go in a room with him. And you got to get him to to want to
00:45:21
brag about it. And and it the interesting part about it is him and any other sadist,
00:45:27
their crimes are so fantasy driven that every time they talk about it, they're reliving the crime. And that's where you
00:45:34
got to get him to the point where he wants to talk about it, but sometimes the problem is their very first victims,
00:45:39
their very early on victims are the ones that are most special to them and most important to them. It's almost like
00:45:44
they're unicorns that they're not going to talk about them. Oh, really? Yes. Yes. They're going to hold them
00:45:50
close to my heart and not want to talk about them. I mean, it's interesting with that.
00:45:55
Because it's their first ones. It's that's my first kill. You know what I mean? And and it feels that special to
00:46:01
them. So, they're not going to want to talk about them. I'll talk about these other 20, but I'm not going to talk
00:46:06
about the first two. So, and that's the interesting part about that. You got to really get in
00:46:11
there and get them to to see that you understand what they did, why they did it. And again, that's the big piece is
00:46:18
the why. You know, I understand why you did this. You know, and I'm all right with you doing X, Y, and Z to that
00:46:23
person. So, let's kind of have this conversation about it. Interesting. So, and it is. I mean, and when you see a
00:46:29
lot of them, they won't When when you had Leonard Lake and Charles Ng in California, there was some of those
00:46:35
early on victims that like no one knew about. It was the same type of thing because they kind of held them special.
00:46:41
You know, and their drive cuz they would used to take driver's licenses and their
00:46:45
driver's licenses were in a different place than the other 20 because they were that special to them as far as
00:46:51
their victims. I feel like I've heard before that maybe they're like, oh, they're just not proud of it. It didn't
00:46:56
go as planned. But you're saying that's that might not be the case. not be the case cuz criminal behavior
00:47:01
mimics normal behavior. Okay. We've all had fantasies before. We've all have fantasies about other people, okay? And
00:47:09
we all have sexual fantasies about other people. That doesn't always live up to our
00:47:14
fantasy. Right or wrong. I mean, it just happens. And I always used to the whole
00:47:18
thing of the very first time you have any type of sexual relation with somebody. That first time never lives up
00:47:25
to what you expect it to be. But you rework it in your mind and you're like, yeah, that was all right. Same thing
00:47:32
with them. If it doesn't go the way they want to, they'll just rework it in their
00:47:35
mind afterwards and and and make it look or in their own mind it's going to be a
00:47:40
successful thing. So, and that's how they work. And especially even with these sadists, they're the same way.
00:47:46
They'll just rework it. But like we I said before, like they're learning and going down this path of, you know,
00:47:52
voyeurism and picarism and fetishes and all of these other things. So, they're jumping from one to the next to the
00:47:58
next. Like What is picarism? Picarism is the slicing or piercing of the skin for sexual gratification.
00:48:06
That's what picarism is. So, so if anybody ever runs up to you in the street and sticks you with a pin, that's
00:48:11
a problem. Keep track of that. Keep track of that. So. Deal. Make sure make sure you call
00:48:16
somebody about that. But that's and they're they're called picures. Um that's what they're called. But we say
00:48:21
heard voyeurism a zillion times. I've never heard of picarism. Picarism, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:24
like we we should know what that is. I feel like We should know what that is. You know what I'm saying? We should know
00:48:29
what that is. And we've seen a lot of and over my my career and again, that's why it's it's important. I don't expect
00:48:35
everyone to have the level of knowledge I do. But I want everyone to have that understanding that all you need to do is
00:48:41
pick up the phone and call me. You know what I'm saying? We can have that conversation because that's that's
00:48:45
that's that if you deal with an individual like that, you have to understand that he's getting sexual
00:48:51
gratification from doing this. Like we had a guy one time like he he would slice females' jeans. He'd walk up
00:48:58
behind them, you know, and slice their jeans and and cut them here or cut them there while they're doing it. And again,
00:49:04
he was a picure. He was a in the picarism and that he got sexual gratification from doing that.
00:49:10
Yeah. You know. Does that always escalate if it's not stopped? Yes. Yes. And think about it.
00:49:16
And again, this behavior mimics normal behavior. We we do not have sex or have whatever
00:49:25
now like we did when we first started. We things change, what we like changes. You hit the ceiling. And especially with
00:49:32
these guys, you'll hit the ceiling with this doesn't satisfy me as much as it did before, I'm going to take the next
00:49:39
step. And that's why we have and like we always say, that's why cannibalism and necrophilia are those top two because a
00:49:45
lot of people will hit that I'm a sexual sadist but can't go into the necrophilia. Can't go into the
00:49:51
cannibalism. So, they hit the ceiling right there. Mhm. And won't take the next step.
00:49:58
Let's uh I got a couple old cases for you. So, another one you're familiar with, Burger
00:50:03
Chef. Okay. So, for those who don't know, it's the '70s, four young teenagers, young adults, they're
00:50:12
working at a Burger Chef, like fast food restaurant, closing up one night. They go missing. Someone comes to the store,
00:50:18
they're just gone. And they're found the next day or two in another county, you know, still in
00:50:25
Indiana. And they've been murdered, all four of them. Two of them shot, one of them
00:50:30
stabbed, one of them, I believe, beaten to death. What does that tell you? Well, I again, I had the opportunity
00:50:38
just like you, you did a podcast I think on that. And I had the opportunity to review the case. Um you know, not as
00:50:45
in-depth as as I'm I'm going to, but I I met with them and looked at the case, but
00:50:51
the interesting thing about that case, when everyone saw that case at first, they're like, oh, this had to be a
00:50:56
robbery gone bad. And the focus was on the the the restaurant and them being taken from there. But when you look at
00:51:04
the case, the most important piece of that is where the bodies are dumped. Because, you know, they're
00:51:12
where they're at doesn't mean anything as far as like they're taken 20 miles away or I think it was 25 miles away and
00:51:19
then dumped in some remote location. And I And like I when I saw it, I'm like, well, that's the most important piece to
00:51:26
this versus where they were abducted from. You know, and then the level of injuries to the four victims. Like you
00:51:33
have to look at those four victims and you have to say, okay, which one of these victims caused this
00:51:38
to happen? Okay? And there has to be a focus to one of those victims and whoever is, you know, stabbed more or
00:51:46
beaten more or shot more, that's probably the focus of what this was all about. And you have to look at that.
00:51:52
Can you tell what what subtype this fits or are there or are we in a scenario where there's potentially more than one
00:52:00
person and then there's different subtypes or Well, first off, there has to be more than one person because they
00:52:07
moved the manager's car. So, someone has to be controlling the four people and someone has to be moving the car at the
00:52:15
same time. So, you know, it has to be at least two people who did this and I even
00:52:19
think it's more than that, you know, I'm thinking three to four people. But when
00:52:23
you look at the the subtypes, there's always a leader of the pack. So, when you have multiple offenders, there's
00:52:28
always that one person who's in control. So, that that this is a this is a power
00:52:33
assertive offender and probably all of them are. Because you see this there's no
00:52:39
deviance, there's no sexual deviance, there's nothing like that. It's very specific as far as we're going to take
00:52:45
you and we're going to do X, Y, and Z to you for this reason. So. I'm working on a case right now um
00:52:53
where, you know, this is one you've never looked at. So, limited information. Woman is at her home in a
00:53:00
very nice neighborhood, middle of the day. She has someone over at her house, like
00:53:05
that person leaves 2:00 2:30. By 3:20 when her son gets off the bus, she's gone.
00:53:10
A neighbor says that they saw her doing some yard work. There's like people out and about in this neighborhood. No one
00:53:16
sees anything. No one hears anything. Her front door's locked, the back door is open.
00:53:22
And they 3 years later find her 10 miles away in this very like densely wooded area. It makes sense that they didn't
00:53:30
find her for 3 years. No clothes around. They think her body was there the whole time. Some skull
00:53:36
fractures. Okay. What do you think? Knowing absolutely nothing I just told you in 30 seconds.
00:53:42
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Ready, set, go. Um I I I think it's it's one or two things. I First off, she was taken for
00:53:50
sexual reasons. No clothes, nothing on her. So, the question being is, you know, and the problem is her being there
00:53:57
for 3 years. So, it either is going to fall into, you know, power assertive or power reassurance. It's all according to
00:54:02
the reason why she was taken. Mhm. Is which one is it. So, that's more than likely what it is. Um she's not just
00:54:08
taken for no reason at all. There's a there's an I And obviously when you find her and there's no clothes there, that
00:54:15
takes you immediately down that road of sexual assault. That someone took her and did something to her and and and
00:54:21
murdered her. And it could be, you know, and and a lot of times we see this like
00:54:25
my intent is to take you and I'm going to do this to you, but I my intention isn't to murder you. Sometimes that'll
00:54:32
happen because all of a sudden you're going to get scared and I'm like, Yeah. gosh, I don't want to get caught. And
00:54:36
then you're going to do something to them. Or you start fighting back and all of a sudden now I have to
00:54:41
seem like she was buried or they attempted to like cover things up in any way. They just I don't know if they just
00:54:46
knew this place was easy easy place to hide her or what. Well, and then when you start looking at
00:54:53
that and think about that yourself, like you have to know what's there. You have
00:54:57
to know that remote location's there. You have to know people aren't going to It took 3 years to find her body. So,
00:55:02
they have to have a level of familiarity with that area, you know, just like a lot of these other cases like with
00:55:08
Delphi. They had to know about that area and that area where they were in. You know, and all of these just like with
00:55:16
with Burger Chef we just talked about, they had to know about where they dumped those bodies cuz they they knew I can
00:55:22
take them here and feel safe murdering these four people without being seen or being someone driving by. Mhm. So, the
00:55:29
same thing here. You know, they had to have that knowledge of where they were dumping the body.
00:55:35
Think you're going to do this till the day you die? I don't see you giving up anytime soon.
00:55:40
You keep saying you're going to move to Italy. You're never going to move to Italy.
00:55:42
No, I'm not going to move to Italy. No, I You know what? It's it We're at that spot or I'm at that place right now
00:55:47
where I'm really looking for the next generation. I'm looking for to to build that interest where, you know, cuz the
00:55:53
problem is it's like everything is IGG and DNA. It's all that flash in the pan stuff right now. And yeah, it's going to
00:56:01
solve cases. Yeah, it's going to help identify victims, but it's not going to solve all of them. And like I always
00:56:06
say, I'd rather solve it within 48 hours versus waiting 10 years to use IGG to solve the case. So, because in in my
00:56:14
mind, what else are they going to do over those 10 years? What other crimes are they going to commit? So, um and now
00:56:21
that's where I'm at. Like I was I was mentored by people. Now they are done. Like they Eventually this will turn in
00:56:29
on you. And I I say that all the time. I saw it with Bob Keppel. I saw it with Richard Walter. It's so intense and this
00:56:36
high level of thinking and this high level of looking at cases and looking at all of this horror like we talked about
00:56:42
before. And eventually, you know, you start it kind of turns in on you a little bit.
00:56:48
And I think with um you know, some of the people, Richard especially with COVID, with not having that social
00:56:54
interaction like you normally would for 2 years, um you know, really he took a couple steps back, but
00:57:01
I I have to stop at some point. Once I find someone to hand this off to, um and I'll still work. I'll probably still
00:57:07
work till the day I die. Um you know, cuz there's always cases and people always call me. And I I think
00:57:12
in my mind if I can help someone just move that case down the down And I don't I I have no ego. You know me. You know,
00:57:19
um I don't tell people what I do. Like none of my wife's friends know what I do. I I I helped publish a book a couple
00:57:26
years ago. No one knows I did that. I don't tell people that because And I said to you last night, I don't want to
00:57:31
come in here and talk about myself because I'm not that that kind of guy. Um but I I'm I'm I'm just super like
00:57:38
want to make sure we can pass this on and make sure someone's going to pick up the torch and move move with it before I
00:57:44
walk away. How do How do you do that? Like I mean, as somebody who's listening who's like,
00:57:50
man, like I don't like I don't want this to be a dying I would love to do that. I
00:57:54
know I was that person at one point and I I didn't even know where to start. I didn't want to be a cop.
00:58:01
No, I understand. You know, and you don't have to be a cop. You know what I mean? This is an
00:58:06
expertise. This is, you know, and I I tell people all the time, this is me taking you and mentoring you and
00:58:12
exposing exposing you to as much as I possibly can. But there's a lot of work behind it. There's a lot of, hey, I'm
00:58:19
going to go down all these crazy rabbit holes. I'm going to go And even you, like when you first got into podcasting,
00:58:25
you didn't think you were going to see all of this crazy stuff that you've seen and, you know, and like you can't unsee
00:58:30
it. You can't unhear it. And same thing here. Like they you just need to find that right person who has that drive to
00:58:37
say, I want to do that. I want to be that guy or I want to be the next generation. And But they they need some
00:58:42
kind of credentials, right? Like otherwise no one takes them seriously. No, they do. You know, like Richard
00:58:47
Walter's a He's got a master's degree in psychology. You know what I mean? Never
00:58:51
a cop. Never worked a crime scene before. He does everything from afar. So, really like if someone like someone
00:58:57
needs to have some kind of like psychology something, but they need to find someone to mentor them.
00:59:02
They do. And they need to be able to be exposed to this stuff. Like I I always joke, you know, about starting Crime
00:59:08
Junkies University um to expose people to this. To say, hey, you know, I want to learn. Like right
00:59:16
now, as we're teaching, we're starting to allow college students in the rooms. Just like we let you come in the room.
00:59:23
Yeah. You know, under Richard's screaming and yelling. You were there. And he's like, I don't want her here. Um
00:59:28
but but again, it's, you know, we're cuz I'm trying to get them to be interested
00:59:33
in this field and really you know, as you're a junior in college, say okay, I want to do that. So now you can adjust
00:59:40
your career path to where you want to be, you know, so I could probably get thousands of kids in a room. I I know
00:59:47
you can. No doubt. If I was like, "Hey, come to this weekend long seminar." And we're going to talk about this. They
00:59:53
would like they would like it would sell out. They couldn't sign up fast enough.
00:59:57
I couldn't sign up fast enough. and we've done it. Like I've when I was with the state police, we used to go
01:00:02
teach college kids. We used to teach the public. We have a you know, a a water-down version. You're not going
01:00:08
to see the horror horror things, but you're going to see it and you're going to understand it because I look at it
01:00:12
this way. I want people to know and understand. I want people to because the public is where we get our juries from.
01:00:18
The public is the ones who are going to say, "Hey, this is what I think about this case." and give their opinion and
01:00:23
I'd rather have them give their opinion from a level of I've been educated to this point where I can understand what
01:00:29
I'm looking at versus not. Yeah, I didn't even think about it from a like a jury's perspective.
01:00:35
Yeah. Yeah. You just never know. You never know. All right. Well, Crime Junkie University coming at you. Coming at you.
01:00:42
In 2027. Well, let's say thank you again for coming. I this will not be the last time
01:00:48
people hear your voice. I so appreciate it. Um anywhere people can find you. We have
01:00:53
a lot of law enforcement that listens. If somebody wants to pick up the phone and give you a call, how do they find
01:00:58
you? It's it's simple. I have my own website. It's patrickjzerpoli.com. Um has my background on there,
01:01:04
everything I've done. Plus one of the Sherry Black Foundation website is is out there and it's Sher- Sherry Black um
01:01:11
dot org and or sherryblackfoundation.org. And it has my bio, all my contact information is on there and my cell
01:01:18
phone's right on my website. Like I tell people, call me. Like I don't like You should take that off. No, I don't
01:01:24
care cuz I guess if I don't know you, I'mma hang up on you. So but I I tell people you got to reach out
01:01:29
and say, "Hey, you know, even law enforcement or whoever." And we do a ton of training and you know, that's just a
01:01:35
phone call. You call and say, "Hey, I I'm I'm in a police officer here and we could probably get 40 people in a room.
01:01:41
Can you come and do three days of training for us?" what the foundation does. They'll just
01:01:44
show up and put it on. that's what we do. We come and put it on. You know what I'm saying? And you
01:01:48
know, it costs it costs a couple dollars for the agency, but at the end of the day, like I always tell somebody,
01:01:55
think about if you can solve a crime faster and be able to get it done in 48 hours instead of letting it sit for five
01:02:02
years, you paying for this training, really you're making it up tenfold because you're not going to pay now
01:02:09
someone to work on something for 10 years or have to spend all this money for lab
01:02:13
testing and spend all this money for these other things when we could teach them that hey, this is when you this
01:02:19
caused you a pause, Yeah. that's going to be where you have to look for your answer to the crime.
01:02:25
So. All right. You heard it here first. Text him. Text him. All right, you guys don't forget to
01:02:29
follow the show, add it to your library and don't forget to follow Crime Junkie.
01:02:33
You're going to have brand new episodes every last Friday of the month, but if you can't wait until then, you can hear
01:02:39
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