00:00:00
Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. >> And I'm Brett. And >> I have an interesting one for you today.
00:00:06
One where I ask you to put aside old tropes and quick judgments and listen all the way to the end of the story.
00:00:13
Because you might just find the thing that I've come to learn over the years. That when you go beyond the surface
00:00:19
level of a case, things are never as simple as they appear. Because [music] this case on its surface seems like one
00:00:24
that you might have heard before. A tragic tale as old as true crime. Woman tells her husband she wants a divorce.
00:00:31
Woman goes missing. And husband does and says all the wrong things which make everyone around him think he is oh so
00:00:38
guilty of a crime they just can't prove even happened. He eventually dies under a cloud of suspicion and the case is
00:00:47
still unsolved. But if the husband did it and it was that obvious, why couldn't police make
00:00:54
their case? So, for just a moment, I want us all to consider something. What if the reason this case hasn't been
00:01:01
solved isn't because answers went with her husband to [music] the grave? What if it's because nobody ever looked for
00:01:09
the answers in the right place? And if we could step back and reconsider what we think we know, is it possible to
00:01:18
finally find Bonnie Lee Schultz? In the summer of 1997, Bonnie Lee Schulz found herself [music] in a position that
00:01:32
many women have. She had gotten married young to her high school boyfriend and jumped quickly into the role of
00:01:37
homemaker, following her husband's job wherever it took them. In over 26 years of marriage, she raised two kids who she
00:01:44
loved more than anything. But no amount of love from them back could fill the space that she felt growing between her
00:01:51
and her husband Rick. It wasn't the kind of thing that I think happens all at once because of something said or done.
00:01:57
[music] It's this like lifetime of small decisions that send two people growing in separate directions. But there came a
00:02:05
time for Bonnie when I think finding a way back to each other probably didn't seem possible. About the time her
00:02:11
youngest would have been going into first grade, Bonnie decided to join the workforce. [music] So, she got a job at
00:02:17
a company called RGis or sometimes called Regis, [music] doing inventory audits at stores in the area. I don't
00:02:23
know if the goal was just to like get a little more independence and identity outside of the home or if it was just to
00:02:29
have some [music] extra money since her husband kept her on a tight budget, but it served to do both nonetheless. And
00:02:35
Rick wasn't a fan. Bonnie told her friend Diane that Rick made it clear. I mean, she could go get her full-time
00:02:41
job, but he still expected her to have the house cleaned and dinners ready at the same way he did when she was a
00:02:47
stay-at-home mom. So, she juggled it all. But with time away came perspective, and perspective is
00:02:55
everything. The more Bonnie was around other people and saw other relationships, she became less satisfied
00:03:01
with her own. >> [music] >> Now, I have no idea how many conversations she and Rick had in the
00:03:05
privacy of their own home about her [music] unhappiness or the unique challenges of their relationship, but
00:03:12
they never discussed marital [music] problems in public, at least not until 1997. That's when things were coming to
00:03:20
a head. Aside from whatever she was feeling internally about her marriage, her mother got diagnosed with cancer and
00:03:26
made a quick decline. She passed away in 1995, which I'm sure kind of brought with it a whole other host of feelings.
00:03:34
And so by Easter 1997, when her and Rick were in Wisconsin for her niece's first
00:03:39
communion, Bonnie's brother, Mike, says that he and his siblings witnessed the first fight that he had ever seen
00:03:45
between the couple. Bonnie had instigated it, pointing out that Rick didn't do things for her that other
00:03:51
husbands did for their wives. The specifics are lost on Mike all these years later, but he said it was kind of
00:03:58
her just being like, you know, so and so does this for their wife, this person does that, you don't do any of these
00:04:03
things for me. And he said it might have started as banter, but it actually got heated until finally the couple just
00:04:09
like stopped. >> And probably in like good Midwest fashion, everyone sat in awkward silence
00:04:16
for about half a second before trying to just like change the subject and pretend
00:04:19
like they didn't see what just happened. Well, and I wonder how much of that was
00:04:23
brought on by her mom situation. Like not just watching her die and all the emotions that come with that, but like
00:04:29
you said it was quick. So like the idea that any moment could be your last. Your
00:04:34
life is so short. >> It it would make you like really take stock of things. That's what I was
00:04:39
saying like brings up this whole host of feelings like am I happy? Am I living the life that I want to live? And I
00:04:43
mean, I could read into this for days cuz traditionally the farther back you go in generations, the more you have
00:04:50
just these like expectations of what it means to be a wife and a mother and married and like you pick a path at 19
00:04:55
and then all of a sudden that is your lot in life when you're 45. Like was her mother happy? I don't know. I mean
00:05:01
actually Rick does say that this kind of was like playing a parting. >> Yeah. But I mean I see your point and I
00:05:08
think it's a good one. like death in general just gets people thinking and it is very possible and likely based on
00:05:13
what Rick later says that whatever was bubbling under the surface got accelerated by her mother's death cuz
00:05:18
after that fight in Wisconsin things don't go back to status quo when they get back to Indianapolis 2 weeks before
00:05:24
she went missing Bonnie called one of her closest friends Diane Dando the two actually lived pretty close to each
00:05:29
other and so the two would actually go for walks whenever one phoned the other but this time when Bonnie called Diane
00:05:35
knew that it was different right away I mean for one it late when she called, [music] like 900 p.m. And when she heard
00:05:41
Bonnie's voice, she could tell right away that she was upset. So, the two met up for a walk, and she said Bonnie just
00:05:49
like unloaded. She said Rick made her feel unappreciated and ugly. Their intimacy was gone, and she had to beg
00:05:56
him for any affection. And this, all of this was already taking Diane back. I mean, they hung out like with the
00:06:02
couple, like her and her husband altogether. They played cards all the time. She had no idea.
00:06:08
>> But you never really know. >> But then Bonnie, this is when she dropped the real bomb. She said, "I'm
00:06:14
about to have an affair, and I really don't want to do that to Rick, but you know, I need somebody that makes me feel
00:06:20
appreciated and loved, and I don't [music] feel that anymore with him." And so Diane was like, "Well, why don't you
00:06:25
just ask Rick for a divorce? Tell him you don't want to be married anymore." And Bonnie said that she was afraid of
00:06:30
how Rick would react. But clearly that's where things were headed because she also said that she was going to start
00:06:37
looking for apartments, though she had no idea how she was going to actually afford one. I mean, she wanted something
00:06:42
close by so the kids could still see their dad. But even the two bedrooms were too much, and she probably really
00:06:47
needed three since her son was 15 and her daughter was 10. And the bigger issue at hand was that she didn't even
00:06:53
know how to get a divorce or how much that would even cost. And so she was really looking to Diane for some kind of
00:06:59
advice or help. And Diane was still married. So she's like, "Listen, I have no clue. Like, what about one of your
00:07:05
sisters? Can you ask [music] them?" And Bonnie was like, "No, no, no, no. I don't I don't want any family knowing at
00:07:10
this point." So Diane made another suggestion. She said, "Well, isn't there a lady at work who you said is divorced?
00:07:17
Like maybe you can ask her." M >> and there was possibly more than one, but I know for sure that Bonnie began
00:07:24
confiding in a woman named Anita Cardone. Just to pause for a second, can we go back to the affair comment real
00:07:31
quick? Like was there someone specific she was talking about or was she just like I am so lonely. I have to do
00:07:38
something like this is the path that I'm on based on like where my relationship with my husband is.
00:07:43
>> In this conversation with Diane, she doesn't name anyone specific. And Diane didn't press for a name or details at
00:07:49
the time. She just kind of wanted to let Bonnie vent without prying too much. And
00:07:53
she assumed if there was someone, it would probably just be someone that Bonnie worked with.
00:07:58
>> And there actually was someone. And Dian's assumptions were spoton. The man's name was John Guy, and he worked
00:08:06
at Regis with Bonnie and Anita. Now, I don't know how her relationship with Jon started or exactly when, [music]
00:08:13
but Bonnie was getting bolder. With every day that passed, she seemed more comfortable standing on her own, going
00:08:20
places, making plans, whether Rick approved or not, with people he didn't know. She put a deposit down for a
00:08:26
cruise that she planned to take with co-workers in December. and encouraged by Anita, she began going out more after
00:08:32
work with like that group of people to just grab drinks or to at least be social with those drinking cuz like she
00:08:38
wasn't much of a drinker herself. So somewhere in all of that, something began to blossom between Bonnie and this
00:08:45
John guy. And she was probably feeling seen and cared for and so many other feelings that she'd probably resigned
00:08:51
herself to believing were for other people. But it wasn't a fairy tale. John told her he wasn't going to date a
00:08:58
married woman. So there wasn't a happy ending where she didn't hurt someone. But for probably the first time in 26
00:09:05
years, Bonnie was going to choose herself. On July 3rd, 1997, she sat with Rick on the front porch of their home
00:09:14
and in no uncertain terms told him that she wanted a divorce. They went back and
00:09:19
forth for a while, but there was no talking her out of it. The time for compromise had passed. like her mind was
00:09:26
made up and she wasn't going to keep arguing about it. She told Rick that she was going to go to a house party with
00:09:31
Anita to watch fireworks that night and then she would be back because she promised to take their daughter Gretchen
00:09:36
to a movie and then the family was going to go see a fireworks show together the
00:09:39
next day. It was going to be July 4th. Diane recalls Bonnie saying how excited that Gretchen was for the fireworks. So,
00:09:45
she was like set on going even if it was going to be awkward being around Rick and their friends when no one else would
00:09:50
know that they were about to separate. And like the thing I want to like get across is that whatever was happening
00:09:55
between her and Rick, [music] it did not change how she felt about her kids. So at around 8:30 that night after they
00:10:02
have this conversation, she went inside and leaned down to kiss her daughter goodbye. And her daughter Gretchen
00:10:09
remembers her mom's necklace swinging as she did this. The number one mom pendant
00:10:14
that she and her brother Josh had gotten her for Mother's Day was like tapping her in the face. With it being 97, I can
00:10:19
like close my eyes and see this end. >> So, Bonnie kisses her goodbye. She walks
00:10:25
out the door and drives off in her blue 1990 Mercury Sable. And the mystery of what happens next has plagued those who
00:10:34
love Bonnie for 28 years now. If Bonnie left her house calm, cool, and collected, that mask had melted away by
00:10:43
the time she got to the Hulahans's restaurant where she met Anita and other co-workers, cuz Anita says that when
00:10:49
Bonnie shows up, she looked really upset. Like, Anita could tell that she'd been crying. So, she hustled Bonnie to
00:10:54
the bathroom so they could talk in private. And Bonnie told Anita that she just had this big fight with her
00:10:59
husband, Rick. She told him she wanted a divorce. Rick said no, >> which is that's not how that works,
00:11:04
>> right? And Anita said that Bonnie looked so upset that she even asked if Rick hit
00:11:09
her, but Bonnie said no. Though, she also told Anita that she didn't know what Rick might do. Once Bonnie calmed
00:11:16
down, they ate dinner with a few co-workers and then they went to that party where they could see fireworks at
00:11:21
a house that was owned by this woman that John was friendly with. Her name was Phyllis. So, they all stay at
00:11:27
Phyllis's house until about 12:30. And then that's when a small group of them decide to move that party from the house
00:11:32
to this bar that Phyllis worked at called the Timeout Lounge. They might have bopped over to another place first,
00:11:38
but like all in all, they were at the timeout lounge as it got close to closing time. And we actually talked to
00:11:44
Phyllis for this story and it felt a little bit like we got to step back into a time machine because guess where you
00:11:50
can find her? She still tends bar at the timeout lounge and she told us that she
00:11:57
remembers that night like it was yesterday. Some cases fade from headlines. Some
00:12:08
never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and [music] on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the
00:12:14
stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring
00:12:21
long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard, and the loved ones of these victims still
00:12:27
deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:12:35
Phyllis didn't know Bonnie all that well. She just knew her through John and they'd come in a couple of times before.
00:12:41
And she said Bonnie never drank much, maybe a beer, and things were like par for the course that night. Now, she
00:12:48
wasn't at dinner, but by the time Bonnie got to her house, she seemed fine as they watched fireworks and they all hung
00:12:53
out at the bar. Now, Anita told investigators that she left the bar at around 2 or 2:30 in the morning. And
00:13:00
Phyllis said that she called it quits not [music] long after that, just before closing time, around like 2:45.
00:13:06
And when she called it quits, Bonnie and John were still hanging out. They actually had hung back with some [music]
00:13:12
staff till about 3:30 when it was very much like a you don't have to go but you can't stay here situation. [laughter]
00:13:19
The bar was like going to officially close up shop. So when the final people trickled out of the parking lot, John
00:13:25
and Bonnie were still there together talking outside their cars. And that was the last time other people saw Bonnie.
00:13:33
Less than 5 hours later, Gretchen was waking up to a whole new reality. That morning, when she came downstairs, her
00:13:41
dad was in the living room fully dressed, reading with the dog in his lap. And it wasn't weird that he was up
00:13:46
before her. But, you know, it was a little out of the norm that he wasn't still in his [music] PJs. And when she
00:13:51
asked where her mom was, her dad just said that she was probably at a friend's house. Like, no biggie. But it does feel
00:13:57
odd when the day keeps slipping by without her there. She doesn't show up to take Gretchen to the movie as
00:14:03
planned. [music] Josh gets back from the sleepover that he was at by the afternoon, but Bonnie is still not
00:14:08
[music] there. So, at 5:10 p.m., Rick reports her missing. A deputy from the Marian County Sheriff's Department goes
00:14:16
to their house to take the report on the 4th. [music] He gets her vehicle information, but when he hears that they
00:14:21
had been having marital issues and they're talking about it before she leaves the house that night to go hang
00:14:26
out with friends, he might make some assumptions that Bonnie's just going to turn back up. I mean, he literally says
00:14:33
like basically call us if she does and then he leaves. So, not knowing what else to do, Rick tries to keep things as
00:14:40
normal as possible for the kids. They go to their friend's house to watch the fireworks as planned and Rick just tells
00:14:46
the other people there that Bonnie had gone out with friends. >> He doesn't mention that he had just
00:14:51
reported her missing. >> Not to them. No. >> Wait, do the kids at this point realize
00:14:57
that she's missing? Like they would have seen the deputy show up. >> We talked to Josh. He says that he
00:15:02
doesn't remember the deputy coming to the house that Friday or his dad reporting her missing, which to me, like
00:15:08
there is probably a world where he was trying to shield them from all of that. >> Yeah.
00:15:14
>> So Josh can't remember exactly how or what his dad told him in those first few
00:15:19
days. He just knows that he knew something was wrong by Saturday, the next day for sure. Now, no one calls or
00:15:25
comes by the house on Saturday. So, not knowing what else to do, that's when Rick starts looking for contact numbers
00:15:31
for people that Bonnie worked with, specifically Anita, since he knew that's who Bonnie was going out with that
00:15:36
night. Now, it took him some back and forth with Bonnie's boss, Felix, to get Anita on the phone. But when he finally
00:15:42
does, she tells him she has no clue where Bonnie was. She said they each headed home at like 3:00 in the morning.
00:15:49
Bonnie was fine then. Now, we know this isn't the whole truth, but she wasn't about to tell Rick that his wife hung
00:15:56
back with John, but she at least calls John right after she gets off the phone with Rick to see if he is with her. And
00:16:03
he's like, >> "No, he had no clue." He said that people couldn't find her, and he hadn't
00:16:08
seen her talk to her since they left the Timeout Lounge. So, since Anita is saying that Bonnie was driving home the
00:16:14
last she saw her, Rick decides to go out and look for Bonnie or her car that Saturday night. And then again with Josh
00:16:20
first thing Sunday morning. And Josh says that he remembers his dad seeming worried but not overly frantic. They
00:16:28
were just kind of looking anywhere they could think of for her car or for any sign of her. But no matter how many
00:16:34
streets and parking lots they search, there is just no sign of Bonnie. So that night, this is Sunday night now, Rick
00:16:42
calls her friend Diane, the one that she walks with, and he's calling her to tell
00:16:47
her that Bonnie's missing. Now, it's about 7:00 p.m. when she gets that call, and she said she answered the phone, and
00:16:55
Rick's voice is kind of shaky, and he's just like, "Um, I'm just calling to tell
00:17:00
you that um Bonnie's [music] missing." Is Is this the first call she's getting about Bonnie?
00:17:05
>> Yeah. So he didn't call her at all before to see if Diane had seen her, knew where she was.
00:17:13
>> No. Which like you would kind of think, right? But she says this is the first
00:17:15
time she's finding out that nobody knows where Bonnie is. >> It kind of feels like there's zero rhyme
00:17:21
or reason as to who Rick is telling, when he's telling them, what they're telling. And like this all feels super
00:17:28
weird. >> It gave Diane a bad feeling, too. And she said instantly she thought quote,
00:17:35
"You son of a you killed her. You did [music] something to her." End quote. That's what she told us. Now Diane's
00:17:43
husband told her, you know, you're just jumping to conclusions. Bonnie is probably just staying with a friend or
00:17:48
something. But she's like, "Who, you know, like whose house would she be at?" Right? He said she's been gone since
00:17:54
Thursday. It's Sunday now. He's just telling me, never called and asked like, "Have you seen her? Is she with you?
00:18:00
Have you talked to her? Do you know where she is? Like never got that call. So her husband telling her not to worry
00:18:06
did not make her worry any less. >> Shocker. >> Yeah. She said right then she marched
00:18:11
over to their house ready to confront Rick. But as she's going over there, she like knocks on the door and it's
00:18:17
Gretchen who answers and which like totally knocks her off her axis cuz she like she forgot about the kids in all of
00:18:25
this. And she's not about to interrogate Gretchen's dad in front of her. So she decides to like tone it down a little
00:18:32
bit and just like talk to him. Except the conversation did not make her feel any better. So she says like, "Rick,
00:18:39
tell me what happened. Tell me how things went down." >> And he goes, "Well, you know, she went
00:18:44
out that night with some people that she worked with and apparently she was out until 3:00 when the bar closed and she
00:18:50
never came home." He told her that the lady she works with, I assume he means Anita, kept calling him and saying she
00:18:57
wanted to talk to the cops. Like, give me the cop that's involved. And I'm guessing Anita wanted to tell someone
00:19:02
what she knew about Bonnie's like real last movements, but she still didn't want to tell Rick anything. But by the
00:19:08
way, there is no cop involved. The sheriff's office has still not called them back. A detective hasn't even been
00:19:15
assigned to the case yet. But that report the deputy took is just in like holiday weekend purgatory waiting for
00:19:24
regular business hours to start. >> Which is like wild. >> Yeah. And like I don't know, maybe
00:19:31
fasttrack the missing person. So anyway, so he's telling Diane about Anita like blowing him up and he made a comment. He
00:19:38
goes, you know, it's a holiday weekend. Nobody's going to find her car or anything until after the holiday. Every
00:19:43
place is closed until Monday. So, it's going to be a few days before anybody even finds her car or sees her, you
00:19:48
know, somewhere like behind a doctor's office. >> That feels like a weirdly specific
00:19:56
example. >> Diane says she just looked at him like, "What the hell, man? Like, what what
00:20:01
does that mean?" >> Yeah. >> And then she said there was this other moment when he was sitting in a chair
00:20:08
like looking down at his feet and all of a sudden he goes, "And [snorts] she is too stupid to even know how to use an
00:20:13
ATM card." like meaning Bonnie. And she said her eyes just went wide and her mouth like dropped open.
00:20:20
>> Yeah. >> And he looks up from his feet and sees the shock in her face. Like what are you
00:20:25
saying about your missing wife right now? And without her actually like saying that out loud, he goes, "Oh,
00:20:30
well, I mean, you know, she's just never used one before." So she ends up leaving
00:20:34
the house not feeling any better than when she got there, but also unsure what to do about her growing suspicions. So
00:20:44
that's Sunday night. Monday is when Bonnie's case finally gets assigned to a detective and that person gives Rick a
00:20:53
call to see if Bonnie [music] has come back yet. Glad that's the first course of action. I guess
00:20:58
>> she hasn't. And Rick tells them he hasn't found anyone who has talked to her, seen her. And so this is when the
00:21:06
detective starts making more calls. >> Making more calls. Like do they not go to the house and talk to Rick or the
00:21:14
kids? Maybe like poke around a little bit? >> No. And this is really frustrating for
00:21:19
those looking back on the case because there's a thousand little things that have been speculated like in all these
00:21:26
years since Bonnie went missing. Stuff that would probably be a whole lot more clear or definitive if the early days of
00:21:33
this case would have been handled differently. But it seems like day one after [music] being assigned the case,
00:21:39
the Marian County detective is just making calls, getting statements from the people who were last with Bonnie,
00:21:46
like Anita, [music] who tells them how upset Bonnie was when she showed up, and she tells them the
00:21:52
full story that she didn't tell Rick, that Jon was there with them, and Bonnie and Jon had been having an affair for a
00:21:59
couple of months. She definitely did not think that Rick knew. And she says that
00:22:03
she definitely didn't say anything to him when he called her looking for Bonnie. And so she's admitting to
00:22:09
investigators that she lied to Rick. Like she didn't want to tell him anything that would throw Bonnie under
00:22:13
the bus. She says she didn't even tell him where else they went that night. She just told him that she and Bonnie left
00:22:18
the party at 3:00 a.m. But the truth, she tells investigators, is that when she left at around 2:00 2:30 a.m.,
00:22:25
Bonnie was still with John. But then she also tells him, "Listen, like I called John. John has no clue where she is. So,
00:22:30
she's not with him. Which, as you can imagine, when the detective hears this, they want to talk to Jon directly.
00:22:37
>> And he confirms what Anita said, that she left before he and Bonnie did. And he says that him and Bonnie stayed
00:22:44
inside till around 3:30 a.m. And then after that, they were like chatting, kissing next to their cars in the
00:22:50
parking lot for like an hour, he says. And he says Bonnie mentioned to him this big argument that she had with Rick
00:22:56
earlier that night and that Rick told Bonnie he would fight a divorce. And he said they were also just generally
00:23:01
talking about other things like she said she was going to take her 10-year-old daughter to the movies later that day.
00:23:07
So that means as of like 4 in the morning, she's still planning on being home that day.
00:23:12
>> She's planning. Yeah. And John says that after they were done talking, so this
00:23:16
would be around like 4:45 in the morning, him and Bonnie get into their own cars to each head to their own
00:23:22
respective [music] homes. Now, they didn't live near one another, but they did both need to travel west [music] to
00:23:28
get to their homes. So, he says Bonnie was following his car for part of the drive. And as they turn south [music]
00:23:35
out of the Timeout Lounge parking lot, they would have been driving down Allisonville Road to 62nd Street. Like
00:23:42
this is all very familiar to us. We're like in this area all the time. >> But they turn onto 62nd Street heading
00:23:48
west >> and then at Compton Street that's when John has to turn [music] off to get to
00:23:53
his house. >> So at the light he went into the left turn lane. Bonnie pulled up next to him
00:23:59
and he waved to her as he turned and then Bonnie continued straight towards her house which would have been like
00:24:06
another 20 minutes away. But that he says is the last time he saw her. Now I assume they talked to other people as
00:24:15
well who were there that night. But how long it took to make contact with people
00:24:19
and when exactly those conversations happened is a little TBD. I just know that it's not until August 6th, a full
00:24:29
month after Bonnie went missing, that investigators actually talked to Rick in person for a recorded interview that we
00:24:38
actually got a transcript of. Our records request from the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police
00:24:48
Department was >> You want to guess? Oh, yeah. Denied. >> [laughter] >> always. But Bonnie's son Josh actually
00:24:57
had copies of this transcript and shared them with us. We informed IMPD that we would be using this in our episode and
00:25:05
asked if we could have the recordings of this [music] to at least if not play so
00:25:09
you could hear him directly match tone and inflection because I don't want the vibe of it.
00:25:13
>> I don't want to misrepresent anything said by Richard Schultz aka I mean whoever calls Rick. I know call him
00:25:19
Rick. His name's Richard. But again, they denied that request. So these sections of the transcript are going to
00:25:24
be read by voice actors and it may not reflect the exact tone. >> What is your name, sir?
00:25:32
>> Richard E. Schultz. What is your age? >> 46. And do you know why you're down here
00:25:37
this morning? >> Uh, questioning relating to the disappearance of my wife. >> All right, sir. When was the last time
00:25:44
you saw Mrs. Schultz? at approximately 8:30 p.m. Friday or Thursday, July 3rd. >> Okay. And would you tell us was there
00:25:55
any discussions on July 3rd that evening or prior to her leaving? >> Yes, there was.
00:26:00
>> And what were those discussions? >> We had discussed as we had previously some situations in regards to divorce.
00:26:09
>> Now, when you say situations, that's a general term. I need you to be specific.
00:26:13
financial aspects I believe would be the best way to put about a divorce. >> All right, sir.
00:26:20
>> How we could her desire was to stay in the house with the kids and stay where
00:26:25
fairly in the school systems and we were happy with the school systems and uh what we could do to meet that wish as
00:26:34
well as provide some finances for me to set up a separate apartment or whatever if it came to that. Did she in fact ask
00:26:42
you to move out of the house at a future date on July 3rd, 1997 prior to leaving?
00:26:47
>> She did not [clears throat] ask me to move out. Did you discuss previously with her about you moving out? We had
00:26:53
discussed previously about a possibility of either one of us moving out. And who
00:26:59
brought that up? I think it was it was just a joint part of the conversation as to what the possibilities were. The
00:27:06
discussion about her moving out was primarily it would it would be easier for me to obtain a mortgage to keep the
00:27:14
house than it would be probably for her. But the point I want to make about Friday's discussion was I was willing to
00:27:21
procure the mortgage allow her to live in the house with the kids again as long as we were able to come up with enough
00:27:28
finances that I could set up a separate house. I was willing to make the payments so she could stay in the house
00:27:34
with the kids and I would move out as my indication of some willingness to compromise on these issues so we could
00:27:42
discuss intermediate steps to divorce rather than going to that final step right away.
00:27:48
>> Were you surprised when she talked to you about divorce? >> Very. And when was the first time she
00:27:53
brought up divorce? >> I'd say in the end of May, sometime during the month of May. uh couple of
00:27:59
months prior to the beginning of July in that time frame. >> What was her reason for wanting a
00:28:04
divorce? >> Lack of sexual activity on my part. >> That was the sole reason >> and her fear of ending up being alone.
00:28:14
And she defined alone as the fact that we had nothing in common. How did you take that? My reaction was, you know, we
00:28:22
had the same thing in common as most married people do. I mean, we had children. Our lives revolved around the
00:28:28
children. Uh, sporting activities, school activities. I mean, Bonnie was in booster clubs for Josh's sports
00:28:35
activities. She was in the PTA for Gretchen. She was a member of the alter church. I had been the treasurer of the
00:28:41
church. I've been a coach for Little League. I I mean, our lives just revolved around the kids. So, I mean to
00:28:47
say we had nothing in common, I thought was a gross overstatement. >> Did it anger you?
00:28:54
>> It bewildered me. I don't think it angered me. Um, in the whole month or two that lead up to the time of her
00:29:01
leaving, I was trying out, you know, what what caused her to come to these types of conclusions or
00:29:10
whatever. I mean, it was what did she say was thrown out in a very matter-of-act type of situation rather
00:29:16
than again apparent to me building up over time. uh and she just said, you know, she was unhappy with some of the
00:29:24
things that were going on in her life. She felt underappreciated at times and um by me and the kids and uh again, it
00:29:32
was just a half a dozen or so conversations over that period of time trying to find out what the source of
00:29:40
all this was. It hit me out of the blue. And the period of time would be from somewhere
00:29:48
in May to the beginning of July when she left, but I don't remember the specific
00:29:54
date that she brought it up or whatever. >> Okay. It strikes me as it struck me as a
00:30:00
very short period of time from the time that she started to discuss the voice her displeasure to, you know, sometime
00:30:09
in the round of the 1st or middle of June saying, "Well, I just think that we should just get a divorce." There are no
00:30:18
answers. Well, you know, in my own opinion, there are intermediate steps to take before we do that. I I think that
00:30:26
we could for counseling and try and find out if we can reconcile before we go to
00:30:32
divorce. And what did she say to that? She didn't she didn't say very much. She's just hung up on the divorce
00:30:41
situation. And again, I tried to appease her to a certain degree by saying that,
00:30:47
you know, I think that there's a way we can financially handle. We wouldn't no matter which direction we went. we
00:30:53
wouldn't lose the house and the kids living where they were or whatever, which I was hoping was a peace offering
00:30:59
or whatever you want to call it to try to get her to discuss or consider of the intermediate steps before before a
00:31:08
divorce. >> Now, I want to just jump in really quick and compare this to what we actually
00:31:13
know. The timing makes sense. So, we know that the fight they had in front of her family was around Easter. The one
00:31:19
where she's saying he doesn't do things that other husbands do for their wives. >> Everyone's sitting awkwardly watching it
00:31:24
happen. >> So, the idea that like since May she has been saying she feels unappreciated by
00:31:29
her family. Like that tracks. >> That makes sense. Easter spring, May's right after
00:31:33
>> and Rick says that he notices this strong shift a couple of months ago. So, that lines up with what Anita has told
00:31:40
police that like she's been seeing John for like that amount of time. And Rick is super honest about Bonnie having
00:31:46
issues with a lack of intimacy on his part, which to me would be an easy thing to lie about, but he doesn't.
00:31:51
>> Yeah. >> The thing that is a little TBD in this is his response to her wanting a
00:31:57
divorce. And it feels so nuanced to me. So, he's saying that like he just wants to figure it out. Like, let's take some
00:32:04
steps first before we just like jump straight to divorce, which feels reasonable. But you have Anita saying
00:32:13
that Bonnie is super upset that night and Rick would not give her the divorce, which makes you want to say like, "Oh,
00:32:18
he's lying." >> But I will say that when police talked to their 10-year-old daughter who was
00:32:24
home that night, Gretchen, she said she was watching them outside through the window as they were like on the porch
00:32:30
having this conversation. She says it's like 15, 20 minutes long. And she could tell that her mom was like a little
00:32:35
upset just by the way she was talking. >> It was an intense conversation. >> Yeah. She didn't necessarily even
00:32:40
describe it as an argument. Like mom seemed upset, which like I don't think contradicts anything that Rick is
00:32:47
saying, >> right? >> So, let's just jump back into the interview. >> Has Mrs. Schultz ever left like this
00:32:53
before? >> Never. >> Has she ever threatened to leave before? >> No. >> Have you ever been physically violent
00:32:59
towards her? Have you ever struck her, pushed her, shoved her, held her tight against her will, or anything at all?
00:33:05
>> No. >> Never. Ever. Never. When she asked you for a divorce, did you think at any time
00:33:12
during those 3-month time period? And I know that's just a ballpark figure on the time frame, think that there was
00:33:17
another person in her life, another male? I did not. When she told you that she was disappointed in the lack of uh
00:33:24
sexual activity, did you then think there possibly may be another male? I would I probably I probably thought
00:33:32
there was a possibility, but I just I still don't think so. I mean, it's possible. Sure.
00:33:39
>> Well, I need I'm trying to find out what you're thinking. Did you consider another male?
00:33:43
>> No. >> At all? >> No. >> During that whole 3 month time period, you never considered that Bonnie may be
00:33:50
having an affair? >> I did not. >> Do you know any of her co or did you know any of her co-workers prior to her
00:33:58
disappearance? >> No. >> Okay. So, you know of no co-workers address or phone numbers prior to her
00:34:05
disappearance? I I did not. >> Again, this all tracks with what other people know. The way that Bonnie
00:34:14
explained things to Diane on their walk, it did not seem like Rick knew there was
00:34:17
another man. And Anita and John are very clear and say that Rick did not know about the affair. I mean, even up until
00:34:24
the point of Saturday when Rick is calling Anita looking for Bonnie, he's not asking about another man. And Anita
00:34:30
isn't offering that up. She is still covering for Bonnie, >> right? He's just asking specifically
00:34:34
like about Bonnie. Not even like who they were, >> where they were, which is where they
00:34:37
were. >> Where they were. When was the last time you saw her, >> which is what makes this next part of
00:34:42
the interview stand out to detectives. >> What time does Bonnie leave? July 3rd,
00:34:47
1997. 8:30, maybe 8:40 p.m. >> Okay. Do you know where she's going >> specifically? No. She told me she was
00:34:57
going to a party, a house party with Anita. When did you talk to Anita? I tried to call her a couple of times
00:35:05
during the afternoon on Saturday the 5th. I got no answer and no answering machine. Um, her daughter called me back
00:35:13
later that same afternoon indicating that she had gotten a number off of caller ID type list. I don't have that
00:35:20
feature so I don't know how it works. Um, and I asked her if Anita was there and she said she thought she had gone to
00:35:28
work. I asked her if she knew where Bonnie was and she said she didn't know. Uh, and then after talking, I believe it
00:35:36
was after talking to her, Felix had returned my beep. I had beeped him and talked to him about the situation. He
00:35:43
had a manager from Regis call me later that evening, like say in the 7:00 area on Saturday. On Saturday, from the job
00:35:51
that Bonnie was supposed to be at, he indicated she was not there. He indicated that Anita was I asked him to
00:35:59
have Anita call me. He said that he would do that. She called a half an hour 45 minutes later. I asked her if she
00:36:08
knew where Bonnie was. She said no. She said they had left a timeout lounge the night before around 3. And I need you to
00:36:18
speak up. You got quiet on me. Oh, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting the name of the place. Um the the timeout lounge name
00:36:27
just [clears throat] gets me every time I bring it up >> here. This is the main reason I want to
00:36:35
see this recorded interview so badly because this is the moment detectives still point to 28 years later. The
00:36:43
moment they believe Rick knows he messed up. Sergeant Kner with IMPD has viewed that tape and he says that you can read
00:36:52
the words on the page, but what you cannot see is Rick's body language. Kner says that Anita is very clear that she
00:37:00
never told Rick where she and Bonnie had been when he called on Saturday. According to her, all she said was that
00:37:08
they headed home around 3:00 a.m. Full stop. So then, >> so how would Rick know about the timeout
00:37:15
lounge? Hisner says that he and the current lead detective agree that you can see it in his demeanor that he
00:37:22
realized he stepped in it. And if Anita never told him where they were or anything more, then this next part
00:37:30
really doesn't make sense. >> So Anita told you that they had left the Timeout Lounge around 3:00 in the
00:37:37
morning. That's correct. Okay. left about 3:00 in the morning. Yes. So, this was maybe around 8 on Saturday evening.
00:37:47
I got in the car. I drove to the timeout lounge. I went across 86th Street. >> So, you knew where the timeout lounge
00:37:55
was. I looked it up in the phone book. >> Okay. Or I I believe or Anita may have
00:38:03
told me. I don't remember how I found out where it was. Okay. I I drove over there going east on 86th Street to
00:38:10
Allisonville. I found the place. Came back through Broadripple on 62nd Street around 8:30 quarter till 9 on Saturday
00:38:19
night. It's very busy. There are lots of people on the street and lots of cars and I did not see anything. Sunday
00:38:28
morning at 5:00. Josh and I got up and went to try to retrace those same steps and we went
00:38:35
>> How do you know to go through Broadripple? You went to 86 to Allisonville Road and you found the
00:38:40
timeout lounge. Why would you not go back the same way that you went? >> Well, I didn't see anything on the way
00:38:45
over. Why? I mean, why go back the same way? I was trying to figure out as many possible ways that she would come home.
00:38:53
Did you go 465? No, I did not. But you went to 86th Street to go to 62nd on the way back through Broadripple. Yeah. Why?
00:39:02
I mean, if you're looking for how she would go home, I would think that you would cover all of your bases. Uhuh.
00:39:06
>> Well, why didn't you go 465? Because at that point in time, the police report
00:39:11
had been filed. And I I assumed that it would be if the car would have been seen
00:39:17
along 465. It's much more heavily traveled than some of these other areas. So, you go out 86, but you come back
00:39:25
62nd. What's the interest coming back on 62nd? It's just a different possible route. I was going to try as many as
00:39:33
possible. Are those the only two that you tried that evening? Yes. Okay. And as I indicated, we got up early Sunday
00:39:40
morning, my son and I, and we went um I I Anita told me, I believe on I don't remember when it was the first phone
00:39:50
call or the second one, that she had seen her heading west on 62nd Street. Anita told you that she saw Mrs.
00:39:58
Schultz. When you say her? >> Yes. Heading west on 62nd Street. >> From the timeout lounge.
00:40:04
>> At what time? at 3 or 3:30 when they left the bar. >> Anita said she saw her?
00:40:10
>> Yes. >> Your wife. Did Anita say anybody else was with them? She did not. She said
00:40:16
they were there alone. >> I get why investigators are suspicious. Yes, we know from John that Bonnie took
00:40:24
62nd Street home and that's the last place he saw her as they waved goodbye. But how would Rick know that? I mean,
00:40:32
he's saying he's checking all the routes, right? >> Sure. But then he doesn't like 62nd
00:40:39
Street is the one that he calls out specifically to investigators. And later in the interview, he explains, well, you
00:40:45
know, like she was most familiar with this route because of like X, Y, and Z reasons, which all the reasons were
00:40:50
valid. And in 1997, this is a time before Google Maps, so like I kind of get that gut instinct off the bat. But
00:40:56
you've been down 62nd Street >> like a million times. It turns into Broadripple Avenue which has like this
00:41:01
strip of restaurants, bars where like all the college kids go. At least where the college kids used to go. I don't
00:41:06
know it's cool anymore but it's like very busy on a weekend. So he says his reason for not checking 465 which is one
00:41:14
of our major highways is that like oh well if there was an accident then police would have [music] seen that.
00:41:20
>> But like if that's your reasoning I'm pretty sure the same can be said for that area.
00:41:24
>> Second. Yeah. And like sure that busy road doesn't stretch all the way to her
00:41:28
house. Like check the whole route. Fine, whatever. But check more. Yeah. So why doesn't he? Like the feeling everyone
00:41:36
says they get is that it's like he knew what route she took home. And if he knew, there were only a couple of
00:41:44
options of how that could have happened. One, Anita misremembered and she actually did tell him or let it slip and
00:41:53
he had more to go off of. or two. And the theory that police seem to be hinting at, Rick followed Bonnie
00:42:02
that night. And it wasn't just the fact that he knew her route home that made them [music] think that. It's actually
00:42:09
something Jon ends up telling them later on. Sergeant Knisser says that in subsequent
00:42:18
conversations with John, he ends up telling investigators like, "Hey, you know, looking back on it, I had this gut
00:42:26
feeling that somebody was watching us that night before we left in the parking lot at the timeout lounge." And then he
00:42:34
tells them about another instance [music] prior to that in which they were leaving the lounge and he saw a car pull
00:42:39
out behind Bonnie and it was actually following her, but he got stopped at the light so he wasn't able to follow it or
00:42:47
confirm like his suspicions and obviously that time she was fine. So he didn't really think anything of it until
00:42:53
now, of course. But now as in like not the first time they talked to him. This is after when I'm sure everyone is kind
00:43:02
of side eyeing getting suspicious correct of Rick. >> Correct. And to be clear, there is
00:43:07
nothing detectives have told us that gives any insinuation that it's Rick specifically [music]
00:43:13
he felt was the one watching, >> right? Just like just someone feeling watched. >> Yeah. And I actually have a bit of a
00:43:20
hard time believing that it was Rick who followed her before if someone was in fact following her because that would
00:43:27
mean that he would have been behind her, like got home after her or at least right at the same time as her. And in
00:43:35
all the conversations she had with friends and co-workers, she never said that Rick had followed her. And she
00:43:40
still thought he didn't know about John. So, like I I think it's like if someone
00:43:44
had followed her before if if someone was following her and it was the same person both times. I just don't think
00:43:48
>> she would like she would have she would have known it was her husband and he and
00:43:51
she would have known that he knew about the affair and I feel like other people would have heard about that. Anyways, I
00:43:56
don't know how much stock you can put in a feeling in hindsight. What investigators feel like they can put
00:44:02
stock in is a polygraph. And both John and Rick readily agree to them. One passes, one fails.
00:44:13
What's your guess? >> I mean, I I'm assuming that John passes and Rick fails. >> You are correct. Which only bolsters
00:44:23
their suspicions. >> And do the police talk to the kids at any point? Like Gretchen we know was
00:44:29
home that night? She's 10, >> right? Josh was at a sleepover, but yeah, she was home the whole time.
00:44:32
>> Yeah, she remembers the conversation that was like at least tense. But what next? Like was dad there? Like does she
00:44:40
remember him leaving? This should be easy to figure out. >> Yeah. She's like old enough to like be
00:44:44
aware, right? And yes, they do talk to the kids, but I think they kind of do it in this like a little bit like Shady
00:44:51
Boots way, like don't love. So, in the first interview that they have, or the first recorded interview they have with
00:44:57
Rick, they ask him if they can interview the kids, and he's like, "Yes, of course." They ask if they can talk to
00:45:02
them alone, and at first he's like, "Yes." But then eventually he says, "You know what? You can talk to Josh alone,
00:45:07
but like I want to be there when you talk to Gretchen." which like she's only 10. Her mom is missing.
00:45:13
>> Like he's six. Josh [music] is 16. Josh is like 15. Yeah. So like I refuse to
00:45:18
fault him for wanting to be there for his 10-year-old who whose mom is missing. >> For sure.
00:45:21
>> Whatever. >> But they just kind of go behind his back. Like >> one day they show up at the house at a
00:45:28
time when Rick isn't home and they talk to the kids without him there. >> Is that even legal?
00:45:34
>> Right. Okay. So I was like, um, they're minors. and he explicitly said he wanted
00:45:40
to be there when you talked to Gretchen. Like this feels pretty black and white to me. And so like I was so like twisted
00:45:47
up about this that we even asked the sergeant, Sergeant Ker about this. Now he wasn't the one who who did this and
00:45:53
went to the house in '97 obviously now. >> Yeah. I'm like, are we good with this?
00:45:57
And he said it wasn't a formal interview with the kids. Like it wasn't recorded or anything. So he said detectives felt
00:46:03
like Rick was being controlling. So, this was their attempt to try and see if the kids might mention something
00:46:10
offhand, like if their dad wasn't over them, >> which like still didn't give me my
00:46:15
answer. So, I >> like he's saying it's gray. >> Well, well, he was just saying like, "I
00:46:20
understand why they did it." So, then I went to our lawyer, Crystal, and I'm like, "No, but like on paper, is this
00:46:25
legal?" And she said, "It actually is. It is legal for police to talk to minors without parental consent in Indiana."
00:46:30
[music] And just like Sergeant Kner said, Crystal said that if the parent is a suspect, police would have an interest
00:46:38
to do this reason to do it. >> Yeah. To do it outside of their presence to avoid any kind of like coaching or
00:46:43
intimidation. So, all of that to say, they do end up talking to the kids solo. Now, Josh can't tell them much because
00:46:51
he wasn't home that night. And Gretchen tells them a lot of the same stuff her dad and Bonnie's friends said about what
00:46:58
her mom was last wearing, which was like a light tan purse, sandals, navy pants,
00:47:03
a striped like light and dark blue type shirt, a herring bone necklace, wedding ring, gold watch, and Gretchen remembers
00:47:11
something else that her mom was wearing too. That number one mom necklace, the one that was like right in her face as
00:47:17
her mom kissed her goodbye. And then there's this moment where I have to imagine the energy in the room shifts
00:47:24
for detectives. Sergeant Kner wasn't there. He just read about this in old reports, so he doesn't know exactly how
00:47:31
it unfolded. But apparently at some point while they're there, Gretchen goes up to her mom and dad's bedroom and she
00:47:38
comes downstairs and she presents them the number one mom necklace and she tells the detectives that it was in a
00:47:46
different spot than where her mom normally keeps it. >> That just gave me like the most full
00:47:53
body chills. [music] I know. >> I mean, is this Gretchen's way of like telling them something? Like hinting at
00:47:59
something? I don't know what this is, but we did get confirmation from [music] the police that this is the item that
00:48:05
has been referenced online and in reporting, but never actually named until now. They actually approved us
00:48:11
releasing this information. Like, this is the item everyone talks about that the kid said she was never without this
00:48:16
necklace. Now, we really wanted to speak with Gretchen ourselves for this reporting, but she wasn't up for it. Cuz
00:48:22
in my mind, I'm like, you know, you know, it's been so many years since this happened. What if Bonnie wasn't wearing
00:48:27
the necklace [music] that night? Like what if we are misinterpreting old reports? Like this either means
00:48:33
everything. >> Mhm. >> Or we are missing a piece and this actually means nothing. Like what if her
00:48:39
mom took it off real quick? Like I was talking to our director of reporting and she was like oh yeah. She's like there's
00:48:44
like plenty of things I have where I'm like oh my god I love this. I'm never going to take it [laughter] off. I have
00:48:48
a very specific pair of earrings that May insisted she get for my birthday and I have worn them.
00:48:56
>> Exactly. In front of her. >> She seen me wear them. >> Our other producer Ma said that her mom
00:49:01
has a box of stuff that's literally like a box of this stuff that like kids make
00:49:05
and you're like this is >> or like give you because they love it and they like think you will love it
00:49:09
too. >> I know. I can imagine as a mom like literally making sure it dangles and
00:49:13
hits Josie in the face so she like knows I'm wearing it. You know what I mean? and then like just drop it somewhere the
00:49:18
place I don't normally put it because I'm about to head out the door. >> Well, and with that in mind, like did
00:49:24
anybody see her wearing it when she went out that night? Like it's a again I can
00:49:29
picture this necklace. This is a distinct kind of necklace in the '9s. So, this is this is what kills me.
00:49:34
Apparently, her shirt had a high neckline, so no one remembers seeing this. And like I think if she was
00:49:40
wearing necklaces, it would be outside of her shirt. People talk about a herring bone necklace she was wearing,
00:49:44
>> but like I think the fact that it just her chest wasn't exposed, you can't prove she wasn't wearing it and it
00:49:49
wasn't like under the turtleneck. Now, even though we couldn't talk to Gretchen, we did talk to Bonnie's son
00:49:53
Josh for this episode. We asked him about this necklace and you know he wasn't there when she left the house
00:49:59
obviously so he couldn't speak to that but I didn't know if maybe he remembered this moment like when Gretchen like
00:50:05
gives them this or if he and Gretchen ever talked about this after but like whatever this big significant moment was
00:50:11
to detectives was not that for him cuz he says he does not remember it. >> What about any other family members? Did
00:50:17
anybody else bring this up? I mean you said she had sisters like no one? No, we didn't get to speak to her sisters in
00:50:22
our reporting. Like they did help verify some facts for us, but they didn't want
00:50:25
to have like long conversations about this. Like it's still just too painful. But we did have a really long
00:50:31
conversation with Bonnie's brother. So that's Mike. And you know, it's interesting. Like I think it's so easy
00:50:38
for us as reporters, crime junkies listening to be like, "Oh, if this was me in a situation, like I would bulldoze
00:50:46
my way through people until I got the answers I needed." Mhm. >> Often times that is not what real life
00:50:52
looks like. In the very early days, like her siblings weren't even really in contact with police. They were kind of
00:50:58
getting what little updates they could from Rick in the first like [music] week or so. So, he's actually the one who
00:51:05
does eventually call them and tell them that Bonnie's missing. But kind of like he called Diane a little bit later, he
00:51:11
did the same with them. He calls them on the 6th. And at the time, they're like,
00:51:16
"Well, do we need to come down? We need to look from us. Yeah. He's like, "No, no, no. Don't come search. I'm I'm sure
00:51:21
she's going to be back." And at that time, they were really not suspicious of him at all. But after like a week of
00:51:28
Bonnie being gone, they're finally like, "You know what? Like, we're coming down
00:51:32
from Wisconsin to help look for her." And that was the following Friday. So, Mike and his sisters drive through the
00:51:40
night. They get to Rick's place at like 5:30 in the morning and ring the doorbell. They're obviously there with
00:51:47
like bags and stuff, right? Like they don't know how long they're going to be there, but the hope is that they're
00:51:51
going to stay till they find their sister. >> But Mike says that when Rick opens the
00:51:55
door, his first words are something like, "Oh, you're staying the night." >> Yeah, Rick, we're staying the night and
00:52:03
the night after that and the night after that and the night until Bonnie comes home.
00:52:06
>> It was just odd, but like whatever. They brushed it off. Everyone is in a weird
00:52:11
place right now. And for the next two days, everyone just divides and conquers. Mike and Rick go in one car
00:52:17
looking for Bonnie. Josh in another uncle go in another car. And they just drive and drive all day looking for her
00:52:24
or the car. And that goes on until eventually like the family members from Wisconsin, they have to go home because
00:52:32
no car is found. There's no crime scene. And they felt like there was nothing else they could do. And they all had
00:52:37
jobs and families that they had to go back to. Like time does not stop when you have a missing family member. I tell
00:52:42
people this all the time and still even in that moment they go home not thinking
00:52:48
Rick did anything. So he's out there. He's looking for his wife and the kids are standing beside him. Had Bonnie's
00:52:54
family always had a pretty good relationship with Rick. Like families could be different and blending them can
00:53:00
be interesting. >> Yeah. No, I mean he's what been in their family for like 26 years now. So, like,
00:53:07
and listen, Rick for sure had his quirks or like kind of just like one big quirk
00:53:11
really. And I heard this from several people that we talked to. Rick did not like to lose. Raet ball, cards,
00:53:18
whatever. He was a very sore loser. Like his whole mood would shift if he didn't
00:53:24
win. And like in a way where it's not just like >> it affects everybody. >> Yes.
00:53:28
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Knowing that about him, I wonder if he viewed losing his marriage in the
00:53:35
same way. [music] Like divorce would be >> him losing his wife, >> him not winning at marriage or him like
00:53:40
losing her to some. I mean, he says he didn't know about the fair, but yeah, I don't know. But anyway, so so that's
00:53:46
that's all that we like that's [music] the relationship. It it was a fine relationship. They just there was just
00:53:51
this one weird thing about him. >> Play games with Regg >> pretty much. It was sort of to the point
00:53:54
where they're like, let's do anything else. >> Yeah. So anyways, they go back to
00:54:00
Wisconsin and eventually detectives do start reaching out to interview [music] them and the first was detective Michael
00:54:09
Kelly and it seems like he might really be the first one to introduce them to the idea that Rick might have something
00:54:16
to do [music] with this. And Bonnie's brother, Mike, says that detective Kelly tells them about the whole number one
00:54:24
mom necklace, which was odd, but even they are like, like, okay, you maybe should, who knows? Yeah. And detectives
00:54:30
tell them that they even collected this necklace, not to like process it as evidence. They actually had a psychic
00:54:35
look at it, but eventually Rick wanted it back or something. >> Wait, did the psychic see anything?
00:54:40
>> Oh, uh, nothing important. Like, well, nothing that they think is important. whatever psychic they took it to, they
00:54:46
felt like the necklace had been broken. Like that's all really that came of it, but it definitely wasn't broken when
00:54:52
they had it. And then they didn't do any kind of exam to try and track down and see if it was like repaired or anything.
00:54:57
Like I I think they kind of just like wrote it off. But but again, Rick Rick like wants it back. So they eventually
00:55:03
give it back to Rick. But here's the interesting thing that Detective Kelly says. He says that when he meets up with
00:55:11
Rick to give it back, Rick says something to him and learning what he said flips the switch for Bonnie's
00:55:19
brother Mike. According to him, Detective Kelly said that when he met Rick to give him this necklace, he had
00:55:26
to meet him out in public. He hands it back to him. And before Detective Kelly gave it back, like right before Rick
00:55:33
asked him if he was wearing a wire, Detective Kelly told him no. And so he hands the necklace back and then Rick
00:55:41
told him that he will never figure this out. That is the [music] thing that finally
00:55:46
changed Mike's mind about what happened to his sister. And he's super transparent. He's like, "Look, I'm
00:55:53
taking detective's word for it. >> I can't prove that that even happened, but he's like, why would a detective lie
00:56:00
to me about this?" >> Yeah. >> And from that moment on, it's been different. And that permeates through
00:56:07
Bonnie's side of the family, making them view everything in this new light. Like,
00:56:13
why did he wait days to call? Why didn't he want them to help come look right then that first weekend? Why would he be
00:56:21
surprised that they showed up with bags when they came? And then his sister Sue,
00:56:27
Bonnie's sister, Sue, remembers something now that's chilling to her. She says, "When they first showed up at
00:56:33
Rick's house, Rick had on different glasses than like he normally would wear." And she's like, "Oh, like new
00:56:39
glasses, Rick?" And he says, "No, these are my old ones. My other ones broke." And she also noticed that there was a
00:56:47
scratch on the side of his face, like next to his eye, where like the arm of the glasses would connect to the rims.
00:56:54
But before you say anything, let me say two things. to circle all the way back to your original question. Did the
00:57:02
family ever grill Gretchen about the necklace? No. One of Bonnie's sisters really tried to keep a relationship with
00:57:10
the kids, which is hard to do if you're coming in hot. >> And everyone else just thought that they
00:57:16
were really taking their dad's side and there became this like huge rift in the family. Like they didn't want to make
00:57:21
things harder on the kids and they were kids. like they're not going to grill them when they're already dealing with
00:57:27
the trauma of their mom being missing, especially when the grilling would have been about their dad.
00:57:32
>> And then number two, to hop back to the glasses and the possible cut. >> I'll ask this question again. Is it
00:57:40
everything or is it nothing? Because we asked the current detective about this. Like I'm sorry, like was there a cut on
00:57:48
his face and broken glasses? That >> seems notable. >> Feels like we should be talking about
00:57:52
this. And the current detectives say there is zero mention in the responding deputy's note about a cut on Richard's
00:58:00
face. And by responding deputy, you mean from the department who took the weekend
00:58:07
off before assigning a detective and then didn't actually talk to Rick in person for like what, like a month
00:58:14
>> or didn't do the recorded interview for a month. But yeah, and this is what I
00:58:18
mean about how the lack of an investigation in this case, I think hinders both ways. If he did have that
00:58:24
cut, they missed their chance to take photos and to add that as evidence. If there wasn't a cut, and this is just bad
00:58:32
memories or whatever, or it happened after Bonnie went missing. >> There's also no proof of that.
00:58:36
>> Yeah. And Rick can never prove that he didn't have a cut because no one did anything, but now he is paying for it by
00:58:43
being under this cloud of suspicion. Yeah, but I mean I feel like maybe he should be under a cloud of suspicion.
00:58:51
>> Yes, but only if the investigation was thorough. And this is the drum beat that
00:58:58
I heard so loud and clear from Bonnie and Rick's son, Josh. He said he is willing to accept that his dad did
00:59:06
something if they can just show him that his dad did something. He's like, "You don't think I want to know if my dad
00:59:14
murdered my mom? Of course I want to know." But what's not fair to do is like a halfass investigation and then point
00:59:22
the finger at the only parent they have left. Make them wonder if the man they live with and love is a killer. you
00:59:28
know, really mess with their heads, but not be able to give them >> any specifics, right?
00:59:35
>> Because there are there are none. Where did this happen? When did this happen?
00:59:39
How did this happen? The idea that they can put forward this very vague theory that just points to their dad because
00:59:48
they say he had motive, but also acknowledge that there are all these holes and look past all those holes
00:59:55
because the holes were put there by them >> and the lack of investigation >> and yet not give their dad any breaks.
01:00:03
That is what is like bull to them. So he's like, "Look, I'm willing to also accept that he looks the most guilty out
01:00:10
of everyone if you dug in harder and actually looked at everyone." But they didn't even do that. And that's
01:00:19
what we tried to do. And I do think there is an entirely different side [music] to this story that hasn't been
01:00:25
told. So, if you're feeling sure about yourself now, hang on because I've got an entire part two of Bonnie's story
01:00:35
that is full of surprises, contradictions, and new theories about what could have happened to Bonnie
01:00:42
[music] Lee Schultz that Fourth of July morning back in 1997. Now, anyone who's part of the Crime
01:00:49
Junkie fan club doesn't have to hang on. >> [music] >> You can listen to that episode right now
01:00:53
in our Crime Junkie app adree. And for everyone else, you will get part two next week. So, we'll see you then. You
01:01:02
can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.
01:01:07
And if you want to listen to part two of Bonnie story right now, make sure to join the fan club. You'll get part twos
01:01:13
early. You'll get all of our episodes adree [music] and tons of bonus neverbeforreleased episodes. You can
01:01:19
join on our website, crimejunkkey.com, >> and you can follow us on Instagram, crimejunkodcast. We'll see you next week
01:01:25
for part two of the story.