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this episode contains mentions of graphic or sensitive material that may be triggering listener discretion is
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[Music] advised crime junk hi everyone and welcome back to the show made by the crime junk Ashley flowers for those who
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are crime junkie AF I am so excited because I am back again with another special guest and a special case
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especially to me for you guys today the Burger Chef murders is one of the most Infamous and mysterious cold cases here
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in Indiana it has remained unsolved for over 40 years and crime junkies specifically might know it because of a
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short little series I did very early on in my podcasting days called red ball that only covered Burger Chef and while
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I was kind of like reporting is not the right word because M mine was a story more about what does it take to like
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relook at a cold case but while I was there reporting for my story I ran into a group who was filming for a
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documentary at the same time about Burgers chef and that documentary has just come out I am so excited to be
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joined today by one of the co-writers co-directors Luke renderman hi hi Ashley I'm so excited to be here as well this
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is amazing I it feels like a lifetime ago and I it's so funny because at the time again you guys were filming
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podcasting moves so fast and mine was just like four short episodes but I kep waiting and I kep W and I was
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like am iing it up I know there was a film crew there but there's a lot of reasons that your guys film took a long
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time you guys have some incredible information so I don't want to waste another minute yeah let's jump in yeah
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so look before we jump in for people who are not familiar with the Burger Chef murders or what in your documentary your
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documentary is called the speedway murders can you give them the rundown what is this story that you told yeah um
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the speedway murders is about um The Disappearance and subsequent murder of four employees at the Burger Chef
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Restaurant in 1978 where um the four employees Ruth Shelton Jane fre Mark flemens and Danny
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Davis were all taken out of the back door at closing time um and then found uh about 48 hours later in Johnson
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County which was a forested area about 40 minutes away all murdered um in sort of different ways and um yeah our film
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um covers the the 2 hours or whatever that you know the mystery of what happened in that time it was is still a
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mystery all these years later and there's been so much talk and so many different theories and you cover a lot
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of them in the documentary and it wasn't just you so you have a partner in all this yes so yeah my partner Adam camon
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who is more of the investigative side let's say and I'm you know bit more kind of I guess storytelling slash visual
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sort of my background is primarily in production design so yeah so we sort of but I am the True Crime junkie I must
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say that so we worked very well together and yeah and and he couldn't make it cuz
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he is in Australia you were happened to be here for a little bit you you stayed a little longer just to do this so thank
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you yeah and you are obviously our listeners can hear from Australia as well yes very begs the question how on
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Earth it was the question I had the first time I I saw you guys how on Earth do two guys from Australia end up at
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this case in a small town in Indiana from 19 19 78 I initially learned about it um I think it was the Unsolved
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Mysteries website or a very old episode of Unsolved Mysteries really yeah and I was in China at the time yeah like
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classic um Robert say it a Robert Stack episode Robert Stack I was going to say classic Robert Stack um and yeah just
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kind of saw I think it was initially the four photos of the the yearbook photos which isort are widely put out there
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and it just kind of captured my imagination and I remember it um sending it to Adam and we'd just come off like a
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we written a script for a horror film that was getting that was kicking around that wasn't sort of going anywhere and
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we were sort of looking for the next thing and we and I sent it to him and he just was like I said oh you know do you
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think this has got anything has it got legs and he wrote back straight away just being like [ __ ] yeah you know and
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so um and yeah and so there from there we you know like it just captured us and we haven't really come up for air since
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mhm is this the first True Crime doc you guys have done together it's the first anything we've done that's it's the
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first film that we've done so yeah you picked a difficult one yeah yeah we don't yeah what was it like trying to
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get ACC like I mean I just know what it was like for me to try and get a couple of interviews and I'm like a local
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person from Indianapolis who worked with Crim Stoppers and I can't imagine emailing someone or calling someone from
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the other side of the world being like do you mind if we show up and look at what you got I to be honest I think the
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Australian thing and coming from an outside perspective was really helpful really yeah really I feel like it opened
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doors for us like an example of that is the press conference where I do remember
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you there and I I don't know if we actually met I don't think we I don't think we actually spoke yeah which was
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just crazy um but I remember we were running five minutes late for the press conference for some reason because we
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got lost or something and I remember we walked in and somebody was like okay we're ready to start they're here so
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like the whole press conference kind of waited for us to get there wow yeah um and you'd come a long way yeah so um
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yeah so to go back initially Adam found a Facebook group and there's quite a lot
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of them I don't know as you probably know there's quite a lot and they're very vocal vocal Community um and Adam
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originally got in with one of the groups and then I think we first reached out to
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Teresa Shelton who's Ruth's sister um and she was the first person that agreed to do an interview okay and I think we
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did a pre interview on Zoom well this is pre Zoom so however there was some way we were communicating yeah that was it I
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got forgotten about Skype they really like dropped the ball from Co yeah Zoom really took took it um so she was s of
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the first one and then we um initially I think we saved $10,000 and hired a d and just got on a
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plane and and came here and started to interview people and that was for the 40th anniversary and we knew that we
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wanted to be there for that cuz there was the tree planting ceremony as well as the the sort of famous press
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conference with the you know the knife and stuff like that so so you guys just got on a plane and came yeah we just
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came on a wing in a prayer how long have you and Adam known each other to to be in and like this together yeah we're
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been friends besties for about 35 years oh is that all yeah just a lazy 35 um and yeah I mean we were friends at
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school and we were both kind of nerds and Adam initially kind of took me under his wing he was the more confident one
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um and then you know we were kind of into Dungeons and Dragons before it was cool before stranger things um yeah so I
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mean we had that kind of relationship and trust and yeah and it just was an organic thing and we started writing
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scripts together and then that never went anywhere and then this came along and we just went for it you can get lost
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in True Crime yes did you guys find yourself cly getting lost in this case did it like did it become all consuming
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it's still hasn't let go of us really yeah like even now still we kind of we were sitting down on I think we're in LA
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on a Saturday night still arguing about how the crime scene was Mark's Body in particular which you know was found and
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what happened and all that so yeah well let's get into it a little bit more like
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in detail so we can kind of explain for our listeners the case itself and then we can kind of go into because your
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documentary explores these couple of very prominent theories on what could have happened yeah and and then I also
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want to get into the way that you portrayed those and the way you did your documentary was I haven't seen anything
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else like it and I loved it I fell in love with it yes it was so beautiful so so let's just talk about the case yeah
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so I mean you kind of gave everyone a high level they are closing up this Burger Chef in November of 1978 it's
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closing time Danny asked if he can stay late he wasn't supposed to close that night and someone ends up coming by the
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restaurant later that evening who worked there and saw that the lights were still
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on they weren't supposed to be and that's what kind of starts setting off alarm bells and they go inside and there
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was some stuff remaining right from the kids yeah there was um the ran um Jane's
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handbags um and then obviously there was like the safe was open and some and money was missing so but no signs of the
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kids no signs really of a struggle either the back door was open is that correct there's different different
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theories about how wide it was open but the back door was definitely cracked open um and yeah and they and they
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weren't there and Jane she was the only one who had a car at the time but her car was gone is that right or Danny had
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a car Danny had a car as well Danny's was there so Danny had a station wagon which is interesting as well cuz it
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would have been a bigger car um Jane had a 1973 Chevrolet Vega MH um or is it 74
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anyway um so her car was uh was taken right so that's missing so initially they're like oh these there there's
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thoughts that these kids like ran off that they did this that they did they take the money I don't know did they run
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and take off they're just going to show back up so much so that they ended up cleaning the restaurant yeah like
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nothing happened there which is so frustrating maddening they end up finding Jane's car
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though and this is a part that like makes my brain itch because they find her car just a couple blocks away from
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the restaurant yeah so uh West 15th Street which is it's a 5 minute drive maybe 25 minute walk but they it's part
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across the street from a police station yeah do you think what's your theory around that I mean we have so many and
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this is another point that me and Adam constantly talk about so uh there's a few things that we've
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looked into so the facts are that the car was found it's just it's a park called Leonard Park as well on one side
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there's houses on the other police station is kind of almost around the corner but still very close um we are
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one you know we've looked into whether it was dropped off for someone that owned an illegal Chop Shop that was
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going to pick it up the other interesting fact is that the keys were found in Jane's
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pocket um and then the driver side door was locked but the passenger side door was
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open um so I mean whether she was with the car you know there's just so many different things that we've looked into
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about how or why it was there do you have a favorite Theory oh we've ruminated so long over it and I
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tend to think potentially she was with the car when it went there whether she drove it or not I don't know but the
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fact that the keys were in her pocket and then that her door was locked apparently she always locked her doors
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um and then whether someone picked them up from there and then went back to the restaurant but and there's a handprint
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found on our car right yeah there was a palm print who it belonged to one of um Mark's brother's friends who was cleared
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apparently okay so they it ends up they don't just show back up they didn't just run off and
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people get more concerned and then do you want to talk about their bodies being found yeah um so as far as I know
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that Danny and Ruth were found pretty close together and they were almost touching like their legs kind of and
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facing each other um and they were both shot pretty close range um and then Jane
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was found a few meters away with two stab wounds to essentially the chest heart area and Mark was found further
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away uh and almost his body was had almost fallen back on himself and subsequently choked on his own blood
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which is also something that we've talked and tried to theorize and Mark is the one that I could just like Spiral on
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because a lot of people say that oh so they think think that maybe the kids were driven out there because Johnson
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County is a ways away Johnson County is in the middle of nowhere like where they're found there are long driveways
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leading to Residents though I mean if you if you know the area but it's the middle of the woods 1978 it would have
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been pitch black yeah the the theory is or the thinking is is they were taken out of the van for some reason and so
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many people say like the intention wasn't to kill them we again we don't think so at that stage like we don't
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think they would have driven all you know like and again we always are like why not just kill them there if you if
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that's your intention take them into the office or the store room right yeah so we believe that at that point this they
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were just they were trying to buy time or whatever that it wasn't like their intention to kill them so but something
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goes south and it looks like Jane tries to run yeah and she's caught and then so
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many times I've heard people say Mark runs and people say he he he ran into a tree and fell backwards and that's what
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killed him but do you think that's true I mean this is again what's maddening for us and this is something that I
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really was like waiting almost my 5 years to talk to you about I mean I listen to Red Ball and is someone that
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has seen the the the crime scene photos um so and again it depends on who you ask
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which investigator were spoken to subsequent they've all got different thoughts yeah um we've spoken to two in
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particular who have both seen the crime scene photos one of them describes it in
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our film and the the different uh the with with Jane the different I mean we just sort of heard
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recently from one of the investigators that he thinks Jane didn't even know what was coming that she was just
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walking she wasn't even running yeah and that someone and they came over her should her shoulder and which is totally
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possible because they have no idea there's nothing is that I've ever heard that proves she was running or anything
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and she was stabbed not in the back but in the chest so someone chasing her doesn't make a whole lot of sense I mean
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it's suggested that they came over her right shoulder and stabbed her twice and she fell either with the perpetrator and
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fell onto the knife and that's how the handle broke which makes logical sense um but Mark is you know just so it's
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just maddening as to what happened to him and and the different investigators sort of say that you know it was a
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baseball bat or he ran into a tree um another investigator says that it was brass knuckles cuz there because of
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there was like ligature marks around the eye area um I think the thing for me more than Mark running tree or however
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his injuries happen I the only reason I don't really believe the tree theory is cuz he didn't
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die from Impact he died from choking on his own blood and they made sure the other kids were dead yeah so if if he
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ran to a tree and then just fell backwards why didn't they go why didn't they shoot him how would they know that
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he wasn't going to wake up and tell people exactly what happened like that's the part that doesn't line up for me
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that's the question and that's what doesn't make sense to us we know from our theor from the questions that we've
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asked is that it was a frenzied attack so Dany both Danny and Ruth were shot multiple times I think twice each um the
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the Chamber of the gun was emptied um whether they fired at Jane if she was runny or Mark we don't know but
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um it just you know there's just so many questions around Mark's injuries and and
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what happened and why didn't they go up why didn't they look for him yeah um did they did they find him yeah did
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they wait for him to die did did it happen first you we've theorized on that as well did Mark run away and then
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that's what caused the chain of events and then we don't know you know somebody one of the investigators says that he
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was found next to a tree right close to it another one says that it wasn't near a tree it was a forested area there
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would have been a lot of trees around well that's where like that's where I'm like there's the the area they were
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found in has a ton of trees so honestly I don't I'm sure you could again I like clearing wise I don't know if any of
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them if you could say any of them were found in a clearing but there's trees everywhere like they're not like on the
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side of the road and they're in the middle of these these trees yeah so it's always been said too because you know
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you've got a knife you have Mark who ran to a tree or maybe was beaten you have Ruth and Danny who were shot there's
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always been this theory of multiple perpetrators I don't think there's anyone who thinks one person this I mean
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we we diff Ely believe that it was at least two people MH at yeah at least it would have had to have been
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um whether there was three it depends on which Theory you kind of like subscribe
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to yeah oh I was going to say one other thing as well so there was sort of um one other the uh suggestion that he was
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actually beaten with a chain apart that came from the Char broer which was the machine that cooked the burgers and the
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Buns that we've also heard that as well why though like was that was that was that missing uh I don't think so I don't
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it's actually a good question cuz I've heard chain too but I didn't I didn't know where that came from yeah um yeah I
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just got sent and I you know just by speaking to so many people on it that apparently like there was a part of the
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Char Broiler that was significant with that kind of injury that was whether it was missing I don't know but interesting
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yeah interesting yeah well let's talk about the theories because there are a lot that have come up over the four
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decades and some new stuff that you have found yes yeah so walk us through some of the theories you had because there
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were how many main theories four right in our documentary we explore four but ultimately there's you know many more as
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well but we hope we decided to kind of hone in on the four that you hear the most so the first theory is the robber
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gang Theory um and that is a prominent theory that includes a group of guys who were going around robbing Burger chefs
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and Kentucky Fried Chickens at the time which had a similar MMO to what happened
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where they would come in they would park their vehicle a little way away and then
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come in on foot and then go in the back door and Rob the restaurant of the takings and then which so far is like it
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lines up right back back door yeah is open yeah yeah so far so good so they would um and then they would leave on
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foot and then um they'd either take one of the employees cars to their getaway car or they'd hot tail it to their car
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um but and you've got Jane's car that's been moved so that kind of works and the
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thing we didn't talk about were the two witnesses and that's where they kind of come in you want to explain that part so
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there was two witnesses that one of them was work at the Duncan Donuts which was
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shed the car park which was maybe let's say 20 M what do you guys use feet but me 20 ft let's say 20 ft away so they
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shared the car park there was a view from The Duncan Donuts to the Burger Chef um one of the employees who was
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working had knocked off and she with her along with one of her friends was sitting
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behind the Dunkin Donuts close to the railway tracks the geography of thought of this has always been a bit iffy to me
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we've sort of had we've actually been to the site um and they were waiting for her dad to pick her up and smoking a
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joint yeah and two men came up to them and told them someone was graffiti in the area and to move along and they like
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they they made it seem like they were police officers right yeah they made them seem yeah like they thought it was
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a police officer so cuz they asked them for ID or something like that yeah um someone authorative right um and then
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so through that I don't know if I'm going on a tangent but that's where the composits and the busts end up coming
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from the crazy the bearded man and the clean shaven man is who you'll always hear about in this case yeah and it
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comes from those Witnesses and in the um other robbery gang theory in these other
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robberies that had happened was it always two guys was it more than two guys yeah um usually it was two or three
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but there was other members of the robber gang that were they were interchangeable okay um usually they
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came in with stockings over their faces okay um in this instance for some reason they didn't um
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and then well and they didn't for the they they were didn't have the stockings on in the parking lot that doesn't
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necessarily mean someone didn't have stockings on and they came into the burger yeah that's true um but then the
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theory is that why kill them if they could well that Jane potentially recognized one of them from when she
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worked at the Playfield Burger Chef and one of them potentially was someone that
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would frequent that and then she recognized them and then the situation escalated that's when everything went so
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yeah okay and they were this group they know who these this these men are they're all um named they were and again
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depending on the theory but the investigators of that theory um actually got like cleanup statements from them I
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want to say and um so they were known and they were spoken to yeah and the other part that fits is they're
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supposedly from Johns Johnson County where the kids bodies are eventually found where they were taken yes one of
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them lived or had a had a had a house out there and they were very familiar with that area which to me is seems
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really important and I think it's it's really important to investigators now I don't know how important it was back
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then it seems like back in the 70s and 80s they spent a lot of time looking at the Burger Chef itself and maybe where
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Jane's car was found and really now everyone I've talked to has said no it's where their bodies are found that is
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important that is probably tied to whoever took them there or did this yeah so what about the robber Theory doesn't
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fit so for me the biggest the biggest Hang-Ups with it is that so the car being parked let's say they parked their
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car on West 15th Street it's a 25 at least a 25 minute walk me and Adam have walked a it's a long way to park and
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then walk to the restaurant to Rob um and then the other one is and why would you park so close to a police station
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true that's always so weird to me I unless you didn't know the area yeah but I mean yeah that's true I mean would
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they have not not yeah I mean if they' scoped it out though they would have done their homework um and then the
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other big kind of question mark is how did they get Janes vager is a fairly small car I don't know if you've ever
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seen one it's a twodo like how do you get at least two or three grown men and four kids into that car and leave in it
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where Danny's station wagon yeah why don't take the station wagon um and then you know going from they'd never hurt
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anybody before other than there was an incident where I think one of their guns actually went off accidentally and they
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shot someone in a in a convenience store who didn't die like how do you go from never hurting anybody to a quadruple hom
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side it's a huge leap it's a huge L it is like if you're working it out in your head the only thing that makes sense to
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me is that they do what they've always done and they get Jane again I don't know how they expect all the kids to
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stay back I don't know if someone stayed with them but they get Jane to take one
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maybe one of them to their car and then that's when maybe Jane you know if the theory is Right Jane recognizes the
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person and they're like okay well you're coming back with me now but nobody ever
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saw another car there that suggests another car which they've never known never has
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been another car has never been part of this there's plenty about a van yes so you want go to the next Theory yeah um
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so yeah the next theory is the Forester conundrum um which involves a guy called
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Donald Forester who was prevalent in the area at the time who was known a known bad guy who was in actually in jail for
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a violent rape he was doing 95 years um and he confessed twice and then recounted twice
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um and then uh with the second confession they couldn't get a conviction and so it was
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so it went that one went all the way to actually trying to get yeah a prosecution on him yes yeah um and then
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it was uh the I think at the time they were um sort of like well he was doing n you know he's not getting out anyway so
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Mel wiy one of the investigators you know they wanted to obviously get a um you know solve it so for the
00:27:02
families and that sort of thing so and I think that where they kind of like landed on that right was that he he got
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some time out from prison basically you know when he was confessing when he was talking to investigators like he got to
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come he got to leave the maximum security right so his whole thing was that he was being traded pretty badly in
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maximum security wherever he was and I think the deal that they would give him was that they were going to move him to
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a different prison MH a less you know like a a bouier prison prison indana um and that he was
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um yeah so that you know he would and the theories as they go is that you know he was sort of walked through some of
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the investigative areas and saw some of the the you know saw the um crime scene Bo stuff so the stuff that he knew
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intentionally or unintentionally he actually learned yes through through his interviews with law en yeah and you can
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say I mean I'm sure have you seen the confession yeah so you can see that he's kind of being led yeah yeah um which is
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not an uncommon thing that you see in false confessions and again he comes out and recants was there anything that was
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like that really tied him to it you know he knew some things um I don't you know
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on there was the the shell casings thing that they um so they went to to his house and they drained his he had a
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septic tank where so apparently he went back to the crime scene with his girlfriend
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and found shell casings that he took from there and then the investigators drained his septics and they found the
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shell casings but they didn't match right the gun and so you know there was a lot of like the you know there was a
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lot of what you say enough to make them look suspicious yeah enough to get police to take it seriously yeah but
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nothing that tied him yeah nothing that like physically tied him so yeah um and you know and it and he knew things and
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it was entirely possible that he had heard a story or you know that knew people that were involved because of
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what he knew but whether he was there that's the sort of did you is there anyone that still believes it's him that
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you ran into well we interviewed Mel wiy who and he still him yeah he was you know he's like we brought this to as
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close to a conclusion as we could we for all intented purposes did our jobs you know we got a confession even though it
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was recounted but you know we he he knew enough to suggest that he was there so what's the third Theory so the third is
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the speedway bomber which is an interesting one it really is so you can't really look at it I
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guess without looking at the speedway bomber which was you know the first thing I
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think that I that came up when I was researching it was this this Theory the the speedway bomber um
00:30:14
and um you know there was a string of bombings s you know during six days in Speedway in 1978 prior to the murders
00:30:24
happening Bret kimblin was the lead suspect in the cave um he was a a main drug dealer in the
00:30:32
area at the time um there was a woman called Julia ciphers who was the mother of a woman he was seeing who was
00:30:39
murdered at a h at a home by an as salent um and you know you Vox pop anybody in the area and his name comes
00:30:50
up and you guys actually gotten interview with him I like when I saw that part my jaw dropped I was like oh
00:30:55
my God one of people still around from this story yeah um you know he's not someone I you know that does a lot of
00:31:04
interviews uh I think you know our film's you know primarily the only film that has an interview with him in it um
00:31:13
how'd you get him to agree to it uh it was through someone that we were working with at the time that was um one of our
00:31:21
executive producers on the film so yeah so he got us to he organized it for us and
00:31:28
yeah and we were very lucky I guess yeah yeah see very unassuming man yeah I mean
00:31:36
it's you know you go into his house and you see like the animals so many animals
00:31:42
yeah um and yeah like you know he's he has an air of you know charm like most I'd
00:31:54
imagine I don't want to say it but you know like you know ch there's a charm yeah um there's you know there's slight
00:32:02
Menace you know you kind of know who you're talking to but um you know and again like you know he claims he has had
00:32:09
no involvement with the bombings Julia ciphers or the burf murders so um what would what would be what is
00:32:16
like the theory that people put forward if they say he's involved yeah or what what what do you put forward in your
00:32:21
film so the theory is that there was a debt owed to him that others were to collect okay um for him okay um and then
00:32:33
things went South yeah and then things went South is there any connection to Johnson County there or or to assume
00:32:39
that if someone was sent maybe they had some kind of connection yeah I mean the only Theory with Johnson County is that
00:32:46
you know he probably knew he was probably in had a wide reach a lot of areas was doing you know like I know
00:32:54
that his dealings you know took him to a lot of different places so yeah is there
00:33:01
anyone that you talked to in the film that buys into this Theory very heavily cuz I didn't that was one I didn't run
00:33:07
into a lot I didn't run into a lot of people who thought that it was him so there's something towards the end of the
00:33:12
film that um so okay yeah so what is the fourth and final theory that you put forward so it's actually the sorry the
00:33:20
fourth and the fifth kind oh yeah so the fourth one that is well known and then you guys have a fifth one that's not so
00:33:26
well known yeah yeah um so the eyewitness account is a gentleman called Alan puit who this is a
00:33:34
pretty famous account and I know that you I think you looked into it uh only because I talked to Jim Kramer yes and
00:33:43
this was this was the one again every everyone I feel like had their pet theories a lot of people and this was
00:33:48
Jims that he I know just thought about a lot was Alan breit did you interview Alan as well no no no cuz my my story
00:33:56
wasn't necessarily trying to figure out what happened mine was like a short piece on what does it take to from
00:34:02
somebody who you know was very young when it happened had nothing to do with the original investigation how do you
00:34:07
come in and think about solving something like this so I didn't actually go and interview anyone other than some
00:34:13
of the law enforcement yeah fair enough yeah so Alan puit is a very interesting character um he's no longer alive um so
00:34:22
he died shortly after we actually interviewed him which is like incredible that you guys had that final interview
00:34:26
with him yeah um um and he's you know this story has follow like obviously followed him throughout his whole life
00:34:34
so The Story Goes that him and another guy they were looking for things to do it was a Friday night he just got his
00:34:42
paycheck and they went to go to the Galaxy which was the nightclub across the road didn't get in and then he was
00:34:50
hungry so they went to the Duncan Donuts which was across the way from the Burger
00:34:54
Chef uh he the guy that he was with went inside Allan went outside cuz he claims
00:35:00
that he felt sick and subsequently saw an orange van and two men loading well he saw a little bit more than this but
00:35:11
essentially saw the kids being loaded into the van um and then taken out of there and so and so the the his story
00:35:20
was then um so the police found him through a he was doing prison time and there was a guy called Jimmy Fred who
00:35:30
was Jane's brother and Jimmy was a known kind of bad actor in the area at the time as well um and that him and Alan pu
00:35:41
got into some sort of argument in prison and the prison staff alerted the police
00:35:48
that Allan might know something and then he was interviewed and questioned and then he through his questioning the his
00:35:58
account of what he saw came out um and the account is that he recognized two individuals Jeff Reed and Tim Willoughby
00:36:09
um and this is where it gets wild this is where it gets wild um and that they were putting the kids in the van and
00:36:16
that essentially Mark tried to fight back and was pushed up against the van and then maybe knocked out and then they
00:36:27
didn't know what to do it had sort of escalated so their idea was that they would take all of the kids and drive
00:36:35
drive them out of there to buy time and work out what to do yeah yeah and what's
00:36:40
so wild about this is at this point Tim Willoughby is a missing person right yeah so or thought to even be dead at
00:36:47
that point but so Tim and his girlfriend maryan higen Botham were missing since I
00:36:53
think it was June or July of 1978 and months at this point yeah so months and that they were um thought to
00:37:02
be dead and but then Tim was seen that night well identified by Alan puit yeah with Jeff Reed um and MaryAnn higin bams
00:37:13
her body eventually gets found in a barrel in Indianapolis to this day Tim Willoughby has never been found yes
00:37:19
correct so yeah so MaryAnn's um body was uh washed up on is it white lit Creek I
00:37:25
think so I think so anyway we know much as each other yeah um and it was brought
00:37:30
and so yeah her body was found but nothing about Tim Willoughby was ever seen again and so there was a apparently
00:37:37
a witness as well that saw Tim come into a Dairy Queen and said and he said to this person that he had a hide out
00:37:46
somewhere in Florida and you know that he was he could would never be found and you know that he was you know and that
00:37:54
was after the that he was supposedly missing and in Alan puits in this version of
00:38:01
events it's thought that maybe even maryan higgen Botham was there she was alive and and everything yeah and and
00:38:08
that maybe this is the reason that she's killed and that Tim has to abscond if he's somewhere yeah yeah
00:38:15
so his his theory or his sorry his story account goes over kind of two days so the night of the robbery of the murders
00:38:27
and then the next day where he claims that he was picked up in in the same van and um Jeff rid was driving Tim willby
00:38:36
was there and MaryAnn higen Botham was in the back and that she was sort of frantic and not making sense and and
00:38:43
that he they said to him they picked him up from I think it was either a white White Castle or a dairy something and so
00:38:51
then he was driven again into a forested area and they they said to him do you want to come and smoke some weed and he
00:38:57
got in and then they drove him out to this forested area and then apparently I'm just giving the short version of
00:39:03
this that um Maryanne Tau him to run and he ran out of there and then shots were
00:39:07
fired at him and he got away and nobody ever came back for him again yeah that and that was it yeah have you heard that
00:39:13
as well no that was the first time when I when I yeah so for yeah so that's all in his statement yeah
00:39:21
yeah any what do you like about it what do you not like about it as far as theories go so I think the like if you
00:39:27
look at it right so if you look at it from like a probability level like what is most likely to have taken place it
00:39:35
just makes sense that you know these two guys you know apparently they were on a
00:39:39
72-hour bender on you know whatever I don't know is it I don't know I I can't remember what the like
00:39:47
prevalent drug drug was at the time I can't remember either but I it was was something specific yeah and that they
00:39:52
you know were driving past they remembered that a debt was owed they go in there thinking that
00:39:57
they'll just you know you know shake down scare them get the money and they subsequently go there and things turn
00:40:07
sour you know whether you know we'd heard a lot of different people say that you know Mark
00:40:14
would protect Jane and that there was some connection between them and you know even he's you know we speak there
00:40:22
we found an we've got an excerpt in the film from his father saying the same thing that you know he was Jane's
00:40:27
protector and stuff like that so whether he rushed at them and then they put him
00:40:33
up against the van they you know had to stop him and you know things turned sour
00:40:40
and then you know things escalated from there like it just you know to me like broadly that makes I mean this is what's
00:40:47
maddening about the about pruit statement is like that makes sense you know then when you go further into it
00:40:53
and Tim Tim Willer be it becomes more fantastical you know and then especially the next day where maryanne's there you
00:41:01
know it wasn't like the way that he describes it it was like Maryanne but a zombie version or a different version of
00:41:08
Maran and it's like that's where it gets a bit crazy yeah and that's what sort of
00:41:12
Manny about it and also like you know the theory his story changed right over you know the years and he backed away
00:41:20
and the things that he never backed away from and even when we spoke to him was that it was an orange van and it was
00:41:26
Jeff Reed and Tim that he saw that eye do you think that is do you think he actually saw something do you think he
00:41:34
was involved in something and and like inserted himself that way what like what do you make of well that's the really
00:41:40
interesting thing as well because um so Jim Kramer who is an investigator that we worked very closely with who had the
00:41:49
case for 20 years and this is you know kind of his theory um he always said that PR so PR went home that night and
00:41:58
told his mother that something big was going down at the Burger Chef and that there was a witness and an independent
00:42:04
witness that was in the Duncan Donuts that saw puit there that's how they know he was definitely there that night and
00:42:10
that he was moving back and forward from the Dunkin Donuts stood behind the Burger Chef like kind of like he was on
00:42:16
Lookout so it's just so hard to know like is he is there any is he the one of the people
00:42:24
that was seen because we got two men that are seen the bearded man and the clean shaven man and then nobody talks
00:42:28
about seeing or do they talk about seeing kuit was the one that gave that initial account about seeing the two men
00:42:35
so I mean nobody oh right okay well I mean nobody else yeah I mean only that gentleman that was inside the Duncan Don
00:42:44
said that he saw him walking okay wild yeah so so those are and those are the the theories that for decades have kind
00:42:53
of prevailed have made their way to the surface but in you know uh like lifting up rocks and
00:43:00
talking to people you guys uncovered something new after 40 years after we present the four main theories um we
00:43:10
subsequently found a witness who through researching um Jeff Reed and his time at
00:43:17
the snake pit which was the I think it was on one of the turns at the yeah so Indie Indie has the Indie 500 and so
00:43:24
this Speedway is the area where that happens at and it the Snak Pit's like the big party area yeah and so Jeff Reed
00:43:30
was known there as the king of the snake pit and was this you know Larger than Life personality there and the sort of
00:43:36
guy that if anybody had any trouble you know they'd go to him and he'd sort it out and and so um doing some digging
00:43:44
into that we um were put on to somebody who um who had some details that had has
00:43:54
never come out before and that's until now until now that's really that's really what you end on is like hey there
00:44:00
even all these years later because you get this person to talk to you all these years later there's people who are
00:44:06
willing to speak there are stories that haven't been told a 100 times again and new theories that should be explored
00:44:14
yeah and you guys you guys kind of went down that road so it was I mean I can't recommend it enough and I people should
00:44:20
go watch it if you wanted to do you want to hear the new Theory because I'm not going to give it to you here you need to
00:44:23
watch the film So Adam and I would like to ask you a question okay after watching our film and knowing so much
00:44:31
about the case what would you think was the most what theories did you think kind of
00:44:36
worked for you what did you what was the most like you know what did you feel like you thought most
00:44:42
likely I think that you know it's been so long since I've been in it um I mean I still remember everything like it
00:44:50
wasn't a ton of years ago so I don't know the case as well as the two of you do so I really was trusting that like oh
00:44:55
my God they're way deeper in than I ever got but I think that I tend it's so easy
00:45:01
to get swayed by the people who who believe in it and so I was really what I what I was really interested in is like
00:45:09
I didn't spend hardly any time on the speedway bombings so I thought that that was like a really interesting angle that
00:45:16
a lot of it felt fresh to me just cuz I didn't spend a ton of time there because
00:45:20
no one in you know when I was doing it 2019 was spending a lot of time um I really like
00:45:28
the uh Jim Kramer Seri again I really like Jim Kramer and he man he can sell you that when you're sitting at his
00:45:34
kitchen table he can sell it to you and but I what I thought was so meaningful was not just hearing Kramer talk about
00:45:43
it or you know reading a report where he's mentioned but the fact that you guys actually got Alan puit was really
00:45:51
cool to see yeah um I I honestly don't know if there was a lot that I would do different because I think that as of
00:45:58
right now I would say you guys are like the foremost experts on this case um if you would have told me I think before
00:46:05
how you guys were planning on doing the Recreations and having them act I've been like oh my God like that could go
00:46:11
wrong in like 20 different ways but actually seeing the way you guys executed it was amazing I feel like you
00:46:18
know knowing what I know about cases is like you go in and there's all like all this stuff I know you have to leave out
00:46:25
so not that I would do anything differently but I I want to know what is the stuff that you guys left out I mean
00:46:29
this yeah it's such a good question as well there's there's a lot like initially you know we originally devised
00:46:35
this as a as a series um before Co that's what we were working towards so you know in terms of the research there
00:46:43
so much that you know like that you know get yeah well that we just also for time
00:46:50
them you know and I can sit here and name you know other theories like you know the you know the tossa I don't know
00:46:58
if you've heard that one that so a guy was pulled up almost exactly the same time by the police oh I do know this one
00:47:06
yeah yeah yeah so tossing a gun out of his car in a Burger Chef cup you know like that is incredible but like you
00:47:12
know it what can you do with it well it just didn't fit you know in terms of like where we would put it and how you
00:47:18
know anecdotally Kirk you know Kirk's the guy that was going to pick mark up Kirk Thompson and walk past and you know
00:47:26
initially found the door open and thought they were playing a trick on him he walked past the the guy being pulled
00:47:33
up you know so like we could have tied it in that way but like you know how do you do that we didn't you know so like
00:47:39
that was one and then you know there's like there's two brothers that lived in the same building as Mark that Mark was
00:47:47
friends with that you know have done you know that were like potentially dealing drugs and you know
00:47:55
and they were kind of prevalent at one point um there's the 812 letters I don't know I know actually that's so I I
00:48:03
haven't gotten anyone reach out about Burgers Chef in years and just a couple of months ago someone reached out about
00:48:11
the 812 letters to me and they were like my my mom's boyfriend he says that he was the one who drove them out there
00:48:20
that night we think he wrote the 812 we think his brother wrote the 812 letters and I I was like I like this is great
00:48:28
but like you got to tell someone who can do something about it but yeah I cuz it
00:48:31
was I mean what so it was um essentially someone wrote a letter they I don't know
00:48:36
what's in the letter do you um they did publish it in the P so basically what they did at the time was that they
00:48:42
didn't have any other way of kind of like being able this is precomputed so as far as I know and I
00:48:49
might get it wrong that they the person that wrote a letter to the police would tear a $5 note the serial number and
00:48:57
they would hold on to it and then they'd stick it stick the other half to the letter and if the letter led to
00:49:03
something then they would get the reward if they could match the the note back to
00:49:07
the serial number got it yeah so the 812 the reason it's called 812 is because that that was the last three I KN I knew
00:49:13
it was the last couple numbers of something they said it was written in blue ink they really want to talk to the
00:49:19
person who wrote it and it was basically a claim that they were there that night
00:49:23
and they saw it but they were like forcefully there yeah um not under like under their own free will and they saw
00:49:31
the people that did it and they were at the place I think there was two letters that came and that yeah they never could
00:49:39
out whoot figure out who wrote them and then the theory that that we had was that it was
00:49:45
the cell's brothers that wrote them one of them being forcefully or his brother one wrote it for his brother that was
00:49:52
made to be there I mean and then there's like you know there's you know there was
00:49:57
a guy that came back home one night with water and blood all over him and um you
00:50:05
know and he had like blood and water in his van and his wife um and he I don't know what he said to his wife but um you
00:50:15
know but then the story goes his story was that he got into a bar fight and got blood on him um that was sort of looked
00:50:23
into then you know there's obviously like again without naming but crime families in the area that you know were
00:50:30
quite prominent that potentially LED back to it so there was so many things there was also an employee that was uh
00:50:42
working at the restaurant at the time that apparently was going to be fired that night by Jane that didn't turn up
00:50:49
he was supposed to be there that night and that's the reason that Dany had to call his mom and say can I stay back cuz
00:50:56
that person didn't turn up and then apparently rang Jane later like almost at the time of closing and then Jane and
00:51:05
then he's like you know I've had car trouble I can't come in and Jane he was like do you still want me to come in and
00:51:10
Jane was like yeah I want you to come in because the theory is that she was going
00:51:15
to fire him that night um did he come in yeah so well he came in so at the time when Ryan creen got there first and then
00:51:25
found the door open and then this other guy shows up shows up and is like oh I was supposed to be there that night but
00:51:33
I had car trouble and then as soon as Brian rang the police he kind of left High tailed it out there but I want to
00:51:42
talk about what they're going to experience when they watch it because you guys did something that I had never
00:51:46
seen where you recreated the entire Burger Chef yeah and you actually had these four actors playing
00:51:57
Danny and Ruth and Mark and Jane and the interesting part to me it wasn't just like a recreation they were an active
00:52:05
part of the documentary and they would actually pull the narrative Along by talking about the theories and it was it
00:52:13
was like such like a strange experience to watch them talk about what happened what could have happened to them yeah
00:52:18
and I thought it was super powerful like again I hadn't seen it done before I thought you did it in a really good way
00:52:24
what made you guys want to do that yeah um there was a few things I mean initially we wanted to give the kids
00:52:33
agency in their story and not just have them as footnotes in this you know in this story that involves you know like
00:52:42
we you know as Theresa sort of says in the film like we talk about potential suspects and perpetrators and we name
00:52:47
them and the kids are usually just left as a footnote in their own story and so like doing all of the research and
00:52:53
speaking to families and you know like especially Theresa where we had like Ruth formed as a character like we knew
00:53:00
who she was as a person you know we had so much information that we just like we
00:53:05
thought like it just wouldn't have done the story Justice without having them and so initially you know Co set us on
00:53:15
this path I won't lie because we couldn't get back over to Indie the world had shut down and it was like you
00:53:22
know all of these things and production companies and no one knew whether thing you know films were going to get back up
00:53:27
so we initially had the idea to build the restaurant and and kind of look at it forensically like the restaurant
00:53:35
hadn't existed in 40 years you know nobody had ever seen you know nobody that we' ever spoken to had ever seen a
00:53:41
Burger Chef or what it looked like or where you know where any of these things took place and what potentially would
00:53:48
have happened in the office and where the safe was and the and so we kind of like had that idea that we'd build it
00:53:55
and document the build and look at it like that and then potentially put them in there and have them you know for lack
00:54:02
of a better reference Scooby Do the [ __ ] out of it because of that seven you know
00:54:06
we we we had so we we wanted it to be like you know the kind of pitch after that point was like it was link later
00:54:14
met zodiac you know so it was like that 70s you know sort of um Dazed and Confused and see them as you know their
00:54:24
personalities and what they would have looked like together and the workplace relations and stuff like that and then
00:54:30
you know and then kind of have them do the whole mystery and have them solve it what kind of undertaking was it to
00:54:37
actually do that I mean truly you had the entire restaurant you had the uniforms like yeah that seems like a
00:54:43
massive undertaking and how I know it was I mean a lot of research and a lot of work so I come from production design
00:54:52
before this and and when that opportunity came up and we were going to do it like I think I spent maybe about a
00:54:59
year just researching it on the internet just finding pictures just I was you know buying things on E there was so
00:55:07
much on eBay that you could buy like cups and paraphernalia and oh really yeah so I ended up buying a lot like I
00:55:15
was like the Burger Chef guy I was just going to say you're like now the world's
00:55:18
like foremost leader in Burger Chef with like your own collection I I seriously think I probably know the most in the
00:55:25
one of the most in the world about what a Burger Chef that's unbelievable yeah I
00:55:31
I knew you know like the different because the it changed a lot as well over that period in terms of branding
00:55:36
and stuff so like the one that we had in 78 was the orange and brown striped uniforms which had only just come in at
00:55:45
that time before that they were like blue and white um and yeah and then eventually I found a guy on eBay that
00:55:53
was selling a deceased estate that had the form still in packets that I ended up buying them off him like one at a
00:56:01
time and then eventually we sort of became friends and he was like what are you doing with these things in Australia
00:56:06
yeah it's kind of it's kind of a different ending yeah and then I sort of explained it to him and then we ended up
00:56:11
buying everything that he had like boxes of it so that the costume designers were
00:56:16
totally legit yeah so there was no way to replicate that uniform I found out as well they couldn't replicate that fabric
00:56:23
cuz it was so probably 1978 would like go up in flame with like the the like thought of a cigarette it's completely
00:56:29
synthetic as soon as you go near a naked flame you're like up yeah oh my god um and then the only thing that we couldn't
00:56:36
buy with the hats or we did buy one of those like paper hats that the boys would wear and then replicated that and
00:56:41
then the girls hats we had to make out of cutting up a uniform um but we were able to find like some pretty good
00:56:49
pictures on the internet of what there was two Styles so there was a peaked one and then there was one that was like a
00:56:54
beret and um and then yeah just you know ginger for example I'd like ginger who used to work at the restaurant at the
00:57:02
time um I'd ask her questions about where was this and what did the drive and she would draw it for me and like
00:57:09
wow yeah and so and then I worked with our production designer a guy called Jonah boo remers who is incredible um
00:57:17
and we were able to kind of get all of the details in there like nothing El like I've never seen anything else was
00:57:24
this the most expensive under taking in the world it sounds like it that well it
00:57:28
was one set so initially what they would want to do with a film is shoot in a studio so they' do the interior in a
00:57:37
studio because then you can control the lighting move walls if you need to and stuff like that but then we ended up
00:57:42
finding this building in Adelaide in Australia that geography wise was almost perfect to what the actual restaurant on
00:57:53
yeah and it had um another restaurant like another building that was sort of like you know kind of a few feet away
00:58:02
the dun yeah and they were both on sort of like and it had like a essentially a parking lot area wow how perfect yeah so
00:58:10
we um put an offer so that building was about to be knocked down and it was an an abandoned Chinese restaurant and so
00:58:17
then we ended up putting in an offer to this the um what do you called it the agent not to sell it and give it to us
00:58:26
for 3 weeks um the building was then sort of subsequently sold and then they made the offer to the people that bought
00:58:33
it to not knock it down and so then we had C blanch to like go in and knock down walls and do whatever we needed to
00:58:39
because because when it's when when they're done when you were done it just got that was it oh my yeah so then they
00:58:45
we ended up getting an engineer and going in there and the building was subdivided so they needed the kind of
00:58:50
subdivision walls to sort of still be there somehow but then we ended up like knocking it down and making it
00:58:56
structure with the counter and sort of the counter had like sort of could hold it up and then we sort of knocked down
00:59:04
the front of it and built those the big windows and everything but the problem was that it was on a main road so you
00:59:10
know you could kind of hear the sound of car so we we shot at night um so it was
00:59:15
like four which was perfect anyways yeah yeah just hard for like a crew yeah and
00:59:20
a really young cast um so yeah and so we ended instead of doing the studio we did
00:59:28
inside and outside all in the one area so we were you know able to build it as a film set almost exactly the same as
00:59:36
what it would have been in 1978 wow yeah so in rebuilding everything did you also rebuild the
00:59:44
stuff that was outside as well CU I it's so funny I literally remember watching and seeing the Duncan sign seeing the
00:59:49
burgers Chef sign and I'm like did like did you actually rebuild the signs so we
00:59:55
so it was a bit of a point of contention early on so we um they were going to do
01:00:00
it digitally in post and build the Burger Chef sign and apparently I was pretty adamant that I wasn't going to
01:00:06
move forward with the film if we didn't what do you mean apparently I keep were you not there for it I think I had like
01:00:12
it wasn't my finest moment I think I had some sort of like tantrum about like building the sign the sign so what's
01:00:20
interesting about it is that we had to get permission from har hard's own the copyright of burgers Chef so it's
01:00:27
actually owned you know they bought it out in the I think it was the late ' 80s and then you know Burger Chef was sort
01:00:34
of Gone by the '90s um and but when we were researching it we found out that Hardy still own the IP
01:00:43
okay and so we had to get permission from Hardies to be able to use it and that was a whole process in itself
01:00:50
because obviously you know like it's a fairly dark to have happened yeah but it's not like they're still out there
01:00:58
making Burger shfs yeah but I think the reason that they do is so that they can kind of you know make t-shirts and I
01:01:04
don't want anybody just kind of doing that so anyway we worked very closely with them and there was definitely
01:01:10
guidelines that we could and couldn't do with it but then um with the sign like you know we sort of we only kind of got
01:01:18
it really over the line that we had permission to use it after we were building everything like which is crazy
01:01:24
like so what does it ask for forgiveness not permission it was down to the wire and
01:01:30
it was so nerve-wracking that you know that whether we were going to be able to you you know we were literally building
01:01:35
signs that were like you know 15t tall you know so Anna ended up like agen to do the sign and what the sign entailed
01:01:44
was like building the whole like the structure which was the light box and then the pole and it was yeah it was
01:01:50
about 15 ft and it lit up and so essentially I had to get a crane drill into the ground pour concrete put the
01:01:57
sign up for 3 weeks and then knock it down and did you keep any part of it so the sign itself actually exists the
01:02:05
distributor is this you know interesting guy that lives in Melbourne who has a massive house and
01:02:13
he's got all this eclectic [ __ ] and like so you would love his house there's so
01:02:17
much like True Crime stuff there like he's it's almost done like a museum he invited me there to have a look and he's
01:02:23
kept the sign and the Burger Chef letters so at his house cuz we didn't really what do you do with it you know
01:02:30
wait so this guy just has a true crime museum in his house basically he's got a bit of everything like he's really into
01:02:34
sort of cultural history so each room is kind of dedicated to a different sort of
01:02:39
thing and so like he'll have like a be he's got a Beatles room you know where he's got like beetles memorabilia
01:02:46
autographs and then he's got like a room dedicated to some history or like you know he's got a room that's dedicated to
01:02:54
you know like P the history of pornography and you know is it just him like is this does he
01:03:00
have tickets to walk through his for him yeah it's just his thing he's just kind
01:03:06
of wait how big was the sign the sign is like 15t tall I think like where is it in his house I didn't it's in the garage
01:03:13
like I didn't see it on display but there's sort of like talk that we're going to bring it to the premiere in
01:03:17
Melbourne and kind of put it up so would I hope that happens yeah I do too I do too what did everyone in town think did
01:03:24
they think that this restaurant called Chef was popping up and then disappeared like 3 days later so they literally
01:03:29
thought it was a new restaurant and they were getting really excited and people were like lining up trying to come in
01:03:34
shut up yeah even though we had like fences around it and all that sort of thing they thought oh my God this is so
01:03:39
cool there's a new burger restaurant and a dut shop oh my God it's like the double whammy like we're so and so
01:03:45
people were like trying to come in and and then also it was on the radio that there was like a new burger place yeah
01:03:51
in the area and then they found out that it was a film and then it was on you know then they were like it's not it's
01:03:56
film set and so there was like buzz around it in that way we have so many Australian crime junkies so they're
01:04:03
going to love that but they're not going to they they might recognize people in the film cu the all the actors were
01:04:09
Australian right even though I would did not know that because they did their Indiana dialect very well yeah I mean we
01:04:16
were so lucky to get thank you for that by the way but we were so lucky to get um these actors like just on the way to
01:04:25
you know hitting big um so yeah they're all Australian and New Zealand um and we
01:04:32
have we had an amazing dialect coach that you know kind of did the research and you know nailed IND the you know
01:04:40
Midwest which would hear like what they said about our di yeah so specific and some of the research was I think we
01:04:48
ended up like contacting the library and finding they had police fire and ambulance phone calls that they kept oh
01:04:56
and then also race like all of the race calls from like the different you know from over the years so we sort of had
01:05:03
that as well but yeah I mean the actors just did an incredible job cuz like no you know I had a friend that's American
01:05:10
and he was like I didn't know I had no idea and I knew you guys had been here so much that I I was like oh they must
01:05:16
have just like I don't know why I just thought you did this here I mean that was such a great young cast and we were
01:05:21
also lucky with one of our actors um V Davey her mom is an amazing drama so we were lucky enough because she was under
01:05:31
15 she had to be accompanied by guard so we were lucky enough to have her as well
01:05:35
so she worked really closely with us and you know we had the time before to kind
01:05:40
of really delve into it and get them to bond and you know do sort of like a lot of um you know like work together and
01:05:48
stuff like that to really form the relationships and the Dynamics and how you know because they weren't
01:05:54
necessarily friends but they were Co co-workers and what was the Dynamics and how well did they know each other
01:05:59
outside of work so like we really kind of had the time to do that as well and delve into it which was really good
01:06:04
that's amazing yeah when you cuz you guys came back you had a Premiere actually here in the place that it
01:06:11
happened what was the reception um it was really good so we always wanted to bring it to the
01:06:17
families and people that were involved in the case um we were tossing up like kind of you know initially whether to
01:06:26
send links so you know like someone like Theresa could watch it you know you know
01:06:31
with her family and stuff like that which we did do but then luckily enough she agreed to come along and yeah we
01:06:37
always wanted to make a an a thing of it and an event and bring it to everybody here and present it and you know and be
01:06:46
there and have the discussion and you know we we you know the film is essentially a presentation of everything
01:06:54
that we learned you know that the these are the theories this is what you know we have you know
01:07:01
we're presenting it as our research kind of thing and so we were really open and
01:07:06
we wanted to have the discussion and you know we had a Q&A afterwards we were really lucky that you know we had it
01:07:13
moderated by you know local news reporter and everybody you know that came along that was in the film and we
01:07:21
were able to talk about it and you know people in the crowd were very uh enthusiastic and one guy even got up and
01:07:30
you know knew Jeff Reed and had so much to say and almost took over the Q&A so it was yeah it was really good wow yeah
01:07:38
is there anyone that wasn't like it wasn't happy or it wasn't what they expected it's so hard I know with True
01:07:44
Crime cases pleasing everyone's almost impossible I mean there's definitely chatter in the groups about people that
01:07:52
aren't happy that certain people were named in the film M um or you know things were used but I mean again like
01:08:02
you know we presented what we've learned in you know like the best way that we felt we
01:08:09
could yeah did it's been out for how long now while we're recording this uh it came out on the 20th of June here so
01:08:18
okay for almost a month yeah has there been a lot of people coming to you afterwards like I mean again I know the
01:08:26
stuff that you can kick up while you're just like talking to people around town and now this has a global stage yeah
01:08:33
have you been getting information since then has anything changed have there been new tips um yeah there has been and
01:08:40
people definitely come forward um you know not all of it ends up being you know relevant um but we usually will you
01:08:50
know Point them in the direction of you know the right people to go to whether it be you know the ISP or you know we
01:08:57
we'll you know we'll filter it through so we can get it you know and everything along the way we've done the same so
01:09:04
anybody do you really view yourself at this point like you're like the tips are great we're going to pass them on but
01:09:10
we're moving on to new projects or are you always going to continue to follow up on those like are you it's such a
01:09:16
good question I don't think you can ever really get this out of you like I think
01:09:20
that you know it will be part of us forever and you know certainly people come forward we'll always give them the
01:09:27
time and and also pass it on if it if need be so you know I mean we're both working on different things and we've
01:09:34
got our next projects as well but you know like this is still our you know baby and our Obsession and our first
01:09:43
love so yeah what is next for you both um Adam's working on a documentary in Australia that's um a pretty uh
01:09:54
well-known kind of case that's happening out there um and I'm looking at doing and we've
01:10:01
got a few projects together and then separate and I'm looking at doing something that's pretty scripted but
01:10:07
sort of involves a lot of this stuff that I'm into as well that's very crime junky love it I can't get it out of me
01:10:14
so yeah we're do you guys think you'll do another documentary or like what was the takeaway from this it's like yes we
01:10:19
would love to do this again or oh my God this consumed our lives and one is enough and we'll be obsessed with this
01:10:24
case forever I mean we love it and we'd never say no we we love you know we definitely want to do both yeah we love
01:10:32
scripted and we love doc so um you know we've got a few things as well that we're working on that a documentary as
01:10:40
well so yeah we're we're here you know we're we're still going and you know we'd always like to do it somewhat
01:10:47
differently you know I think the what we were lucky with with this one was that we got to do it you know a little bit
01:10:54
differently M and it had a very different angle so you know we we'd definitely like to kind of hone our
01:11:01
skills and yeah and do it again remind people where they can go watch this yeah so
01:11:10
in the states it's um it's on at the moment it's on Apple Plus Apple TV plus Amazon Prime and On Demand um and then
01:11:23
in Australia it will be out on Apple TV Amazon and on demand and limited theatrical uh from the 7th of August and
01:11:34
then New Zealand Film Festival on the 10th of August there is again it we talked about a lot of
01:11:42
theories but there is new information a new Theory at the end people need to go watch and I'm not going to spoil it
01:11:49
either but I especially love the way that you guys did the ending it was talking about like making it really
01:11:55
bringing it home making the kids real it was like such a beautiful touching ending so make sure if you're in the US
01:12:02
you can go watch it now Apple TV plus Amazon Prime and if you're in Australia it's coming out very soon August 7th
01:12:10
Apple TV plus and Prime make sure you go watch um yeah I just want to say as well
01:12:18
that if there's anything um any uh tips or any info that people have um you know
01:12:25
wouldd love them to come forward and we can either pass it on to authorities or they can go straight to the authorities
01:12:32
with any promising leads or information would' encourage anyone to come forward what would be the best way to get in
01:12:38
touch with you if they wanted us to talk about something Instagram Instagram yeah
01:12:42
Instagram or Facebook perfect and then we'll put the information for the Indiana State Police who have the case
01:12:48
in the show notes don't forget to follow this show and add it to your library and
01:12:52
don't forget to follow crime junkie we have a brand new episode of crime junkie AF the last Friday of every month but if
01:12:58
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01:13:02
app for your 247 True Crime fix and you can follow me Ashley flowers on Instagram Ashley flowers and you can
01:13:09
follow me Ashley flowers crime junkie on Tik Tok stick around we're going to be playing you a special clip from the
01:13:17
speedway murders right after this I will see you right back here next month the fact that no one has been held
01:13:26
responsible Burns a hole right through [Applause] me usually when I start having
01:13:34
nightmares it's it's getting colder and it's just my heart just sinks and and I remember that she's gone
01:13:45
[Music] on November 17th 1978 four employees of the Burger Chef Restaurant in Speedway
01:14:02
Indiana were abducted two days later on Sunday afternoon a person found their bodies in rural Johnson County Indiana
01:14:10
where they had been murdered Ruth and Danny were both shot face down execution style Jane was
01:14:19
stabbed twice in the chest and then Mark was beaten the bodies of jam C freed Mark lemens
01:14:28
Daniel R Davis and Ruthie Shelton have been discovered late this afternoon in Johnson County the crime still remains
01:14:36
unsolved 1978 just hours after closing time four employees ages 16 to 20 they were found murdered a few days later in
01:14:44
Johnson County no one has been charged with a crime about one of the most infamous crimes in State
01:14:49
history somewhere somebody knows what happened