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hi crime junkies I am here today to bring you some breaking news in one of the most prolific cases in True Crime
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history today I'm having a conversation with Amanda Knox because a verdict was just reached today that marks the end of
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a knockout drag out 18-year battle to prove her innocence and clear her name once and for all and maybe you're
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thinking that you thought she already had but if that's the case if you think that then you have only heard part of
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her story The Italian Supreme Court found Amanda Knox officially guilty of slander today so what does that mean
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well we're going to have Amanda tell you herself so how are you feeling um I um I was really trying to prepare for
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this um because I I was deeply disconcerted when the Florence court of appeals convicted me in the first place
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um I was really surprised because I was certain that I was going to be acquitted
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um and so I I've been mentally trying to put myself in a position of um not just
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being devastated but feeling like um I like there this isn't just something that's going to push me down it's
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something that can give me wings um I I really do believe that whatever it is that happens to us um it it can be an
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opportunity it can give you momentum and so I'm I'm allowing myself today to grieve and then tomorrow I'll wake up
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and and have momentum is what I I think is going to happen that's a pretty great
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Outlook does it get less surprising I mean because I like this is I feel like this has been a little bit of the theme
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of your story where when we spoke the first time you know when in talking about the the first time you were
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convicted of murder you were like I didn't believe it could happen like do you keep like having faith that people
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will get it right or at some point is it a little bit less where you're like I've
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watched them get it wrong so many times that I'm not that surprised anymore yeah
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I don't think I'll ever be as surprised as that first verdict um but that doesn't mean that
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I don't try to believe in the best of of people and um I just know that people are also flawed and have you know not
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always the best motivations that are you know deciding what they what they ultimately do um and how they ultimately
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decide um and I I always want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and to and to have faith
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and if that means that sometimes my heart gets broken I think I'm okay with that because I know that I can survive
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that and what what does the guilty verdict mean right now I mean what it means there's no danger of
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me going back to prisons so for anyone who's worried that something terrible is going to happen like someone's going to
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extradite me back to Italy like that's not going to happen right like they sentenced me to the maximum amount of
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time that you can be sentenced for this crime which is three years I already served four years in prison so that's
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you know time served I think a lot of people are even surprised that I could serve jail time for this for this um
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because slander in the US is considered like a a civil crime that you can be fined for but not imprisoned for in
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Italy it is considered a crime against the state and so you can you you can serve prison time includ and as well as
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be fined by the grieved party for um for the crime so I was sentenced to the maximum amount of time for this crime
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and um I've already surfed that time and more so I'm not going to be extradited um um what could happen is that Patrick
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lumba who is the AG grieved party in this instance he could um attempt to come to the United States and sue me for
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a a ridiculous quantity of money um as damages um so I don't know if that is what's going to happen um but he would
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have to come here yes yeah because all of my um all of my everything that I own is is based here in the United States if
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it were in Italy then he could just go after me in Italy um the other thing that it means is that I for the rest of
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my life um have a criminal record in Italy for a crime that I didn't commit and I think um I think the thing that
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really bothers me the most about this outcome is that it's now set in legal stone um not just that I'm a militi liar
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when I'm not but that I was at the scene of the crime when the murder happened to
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Meredith When I was not like one of the one of the things that I had hoped for would be an outcome of this of a verdict
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that would recognize my innocence in this case would also be a recognition that I was not there when Meredith was
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murdered that I did not just like sit around in the kitchen while my friend was getting raped and murdered and I did
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nothing to stop it and that I been lying about it all these years like that's that is what is legally set in stone
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today is that not only did I falsely accuse an innocent man knowing he was innocent but that I was physically
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present at the crime when it happened that's the only way I could know for sure that he was innocent right well and
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explain that a little bit because like like really like let us because I didn't really understand it first where this
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slander charge even came from cuz I know we did we covered your your case on an episode but really get into the slander
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charge yes and and most people don't because it's not the big scary murder charge right like I was I was accused of
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a lot of big scary things rape murder falsifying a burglary and carrying a weapon in my purse like all of these
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sort of big scary charges that had big scary sentences attached to them and then sort of as a coda was this like
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slander charge and everyone sort of always treated it as not very important not really um
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Central to everything and really it's the it's Central to everything I would not have been accused of murder and rape
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and falsifying a burglary and and all of the other things that I was accused of were I not accused of slander and did it
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happen at the same time the accusation of slander as the as the murder charge no so um I was initially charged with
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murder after I was interrogated so um I I in the 5 days after we discovered Meredith's body I was in police custody
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for 53 hours um not all at a stretch like it was you know in at moments right and I was in and out of the of the quora
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the police office answering their questions over and over and over again and finally you know 5 days into this I was
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call or actually rafhael my boyfriend was called in and I went with him because I didn't want to be alone I went
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with him and I was interrogated for uh overnight um in Italian which I did not I I did not I was not fluent in Italian
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I had only been in Italy for five weeks up to that point w um I was screamed at I was lied to I was
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slapped and I was gaslit I was told told that I had no alibi that there was physical proof that I was present when
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the crime occurred and that I was suffering from Amnesia that I had witnessed the crime that I they did not
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accuse me of participating in the crime they told me that I had witnessed the crime and that it was so horrible that
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my mind had blocked it out but in order to prove to the police that I was cooperating and that I was not um like
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covering for the murderer or hiding who the murderer was I had to remember my repressed
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memories and you know we can talk about why Patrick ended up becoming the the yeah the object
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so a couple of things um we now know this that like back then they had very few leads about who had committed this
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crime but they were thinking that it might have been a black man based on DNA evidence correct well not at this point
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CU they didn't have DNA evidence at this point based upon the fact that they found what they thought were African
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people's hair at the crime scene and based upon the fact that the boys who live downstairs from us talked about a
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person who went by the name the baron who live who had visited the house there were there they were asking about all
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the different men who had frequented the house house and they were assuming that
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somebody who had frequented the house was the was the perpetrator because they had initially thought that the Breakin
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was staged they immediately decided that the break-in was staged it was not real
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and that therefore somebody with access to the house had committed this crime okay and was and somebody was covering
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it up so they um they they found a when they were interrogating me they found a text
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message that my boss Patrick lumba had um that I had sent to Patrick lumba the night that Meredith was murdered he had
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also sent me a text message but I had since deleted it because to save data on my phone um he had 2007 yes an noia um
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he had sent me a text message the night that Meredith was murdered saying that I
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didn't have to come in to work and I had responded to him saying meaning great see you later have a good night
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now I had mistranslated see you later the way that you say see you later in Italian is CH not
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chardi which is more specific the police became convinced upon seeing this text message that I had
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not stayed at Rafael's apartment as I had consistantly claimed for days on end but that I had in fact made an
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appointment with my boss Patrick the Mumba the night of the murder and that I had left Raphael's apartment and so they
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were now they now decided that I had literally left Rafael's house to meet up with Patrick and that I had witnessed
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something presumably by done by Patrick um that happened to Meredith and that I was covering it up so they put me
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through a incredibly abusive and what came to be Rec recognized as illegal interrogation where I was not just
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denied an attorney and denied a translator who was not who was um there there was a eventually a translator who
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came in but she was not neutral she called me a liar and she suggested to me that I had trauma induced
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Amnesia and they drilled into this theory that I witnessed Patrick kill Meredith and it didn't matter how many
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times I told them that that wasn't true they refused to believe me and this went on and on and on until I
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started to doubt my own sanity and I started to believe them that this could be true and So eventually I did what
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they suggested which is imagine what I possibly could have forgotten which is this scenario that
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Patrick raped and murdered Meredith and then I signed statements to that effect and you know what those statements were
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you know implicate implicated Patrick in this crime I said I'm imagining I'm imagining he was there and I'm imagining
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hearing Meredith scream like this is these are all things that are very very implicating of Patrick lumba and I
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understand why they they then went on to um to to uh accuse me of falsely accusing an innocent
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person even though I was denied you know all of my rights the problem is that they didn't you know they didn't record
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that interrogation they didn't didn't do that do Me My Rights but also I recanted
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within several hours before I even left the police station I recanted these statements and yet they went on to
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arrest Patrick who a day later multiple people came forward saying that he had a
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rocksolid alibi that they were with him the entire night at his at his bar he could not possibly have committed the
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crime they still kept him in prison for two weeks even after the forensic evidence
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came back that had no trace of him at the crime scene all of it implicated Rudy Gade none of it implicated me they
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still detained him and they did not release him until they had the actual killer Rudy Gade in custody and they
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just sort of did a Switcheroo the same day that that one was in one was out but even so they kept his bar closed for
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three months so that he eventually was his business and his reputation never recovered and justifiably he sought
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damages from from the state for his wrongful imprisonment but the state then went on to blame me so instead of taking
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responsibility for what they had done to Patrick the state blamed me for basically his arrest and everything he
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lost and I was found today I was found definitively criminally responsible for what they took from Patrick I think what
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so many people myself has a hard time understanding is what did they have to gain
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from from holding you responsible as opposed to them other other than just like Saving Face or is that it I mean I
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I think Saving Face is a big big aspect of it because um being reputation means a lot in Italy
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um so by scapegoating me they have allowed themselves to not take responsibility not just for what they
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did to Patrick but also for what they did to rafhael and me because they can say Amanda is responsible for her own
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wrongful conviction of murder and all the time that she spent in prison because she
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lied and so they do not have to compensate they don't have to compensate Rafael they don't have to compensate me
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they don't have to compensate Patrick Beyond you know with the measly amount that they compensated him for his 14
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days in prison they did not even remotely compensate him for everything that they took from him
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and um you know it's it's why do you think there was such a difference in cuz I mean you said
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it like there was you called it a Switcheroo and I think that's the right word because I mean it did happen so fast I
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think people forget how early on in the case they were able to make the connection to Rudy Gade because it they
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were doesn't feel like it they were talking about you talking about Patrick lumba for years
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afterwards why do you think it is that you guys became the center of it and and he in Rudy
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seemed to not be talked about like he his his name was not like run through the mud the way that yours was the way
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that Patrick's was yeah I mean I think um the I think the why of that is requires me to do a little bit of
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speculation but I what I can note I can note some differences between Rudy Gade and me or Rudy G and Patrick for
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instance um there was undeniable irrefutable evidence of G's involvement in this crime period like there there
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was no question that Rudy Gade committed this crime his DNA was found in and on Meredith's body through in her rifled
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purse his fingerprints and Footprints were found in her blood he fled the country immediately after committing the
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crime and assumed a false identity he admitted to being there to a friend of his on a Skype call that the police were
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listening into there was never a qu once they identified his DNA at the crime scene there was never a question that he
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did it there was a question of whether I did it or whether Patrick did it because
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when they got back that DNA none of it belonged to either of us there was never any DNA of mine found in the room where
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Meredith was murdered there was DNA of mine found in the adjacent bathroom in the adjacent hallway in the house that I
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lived in yeah but there was never any evidence of me found at the crime scene and yet I was arrested and imprisoned
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and I had confessed so this is like where this particular crime crime that I was
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accused of becomes really the central thing I it's a like I said it's amazing how many people feel like it was just
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this little tack on added non you know non-important thing it was the central thing they believed that an innocent
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person would not falsely accuse another innocent person and therefore I had to be guilty of something and they would
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not admit that they had simply coerced a innocent young woman by scaring the living [ __ ] out of her and lying to her
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that that she was actually innocent and so in lie of admitting that they had made a mistake they had did
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more than just deny me my human rights they had tortured me in lie of admitting that they had to make a case to make
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sense of the fact that they had arrested me they were able to let Patrick go because you know they could say Amanda
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accused him and we're not at fault but they had they could they there was no excuse for why they had arrested me
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unless they had tortured me and so I had to be guilty of something and they spent
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the next these past 18 years trying to find me guilty of something and this was the very very last thing that they could
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find me guilty of and so who actually brought the charges against you that's a great question so in Italy
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um like I said colia slander is considered a crime against the state so it's a it's a criminal charge and then
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the the damaged party Patrick in this case can then sort of tack on and Sue uh alongside the prosecution during
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the criminal proceedings so his sort of Civil Trial took place at the same time as my criminal trial because it was a it
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was considered a crime that he was seeking damages for So Not only was the state seeking to have me convicted and
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sentenced to prison time for this crime but he was also hoping to have me convicted and to pursue damages against
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um against me and that all happened at the same time so it was the state who first AC accused me and charged me with
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criminal slander but even Patrick holds you responsible like he he hasn't does he acknowledge that this is
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a coerced false confession does he like not no really no his his attorney um Carlo pachelli was the one who called me
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luciferina in court female Lucifer and as far as I know um today he said that he is happy with the outcome
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and that this this conviction will follow me for the rest of my life and I really don't know um what to say
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about that because what really bothers me is that Patrick was my friend before all of this
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right like the only reason he ever got brought into this was because he texted me the night of the murder because we
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had the only reason Raphael got dragged into this whole thing was because he was
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my boyfriend and my alibi like that's that's the only reason and he was my friend and the fact that he I don't know
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I I wonder if just so many people have been whispering in his ear for so many years about how I'm a horrible person
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and I committed this crime and and and I you know I think there's also like a financial aspect to it he he was
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not satisfied with how he was compensated by the Italian State and there's nothing more that he can get and
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so he's pursuing those damages against me which I as far as I know are up there in like a 100,000 Euro or more like
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I I know that said he would have to come here to get it essentially I mean I know
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that he has the right to feel damaged and to pursue damages the problem is that I was not the one who had him
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arrested I was not the one who kept him in custody when he had an alibi I was not the one who kept his bar closed even
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though he had nothing to do with the crime like I am not responsible for any of those choices and so I I'm not
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responsible for paying those damages yeah and and I'm just so sad that it seems like at no point on this whole
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journey did he ever think maybe just maybe Amanda really didn't want to do it and and when she wrote wrote her
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recantation she was trying to fix things and I think this is a like I would love
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to talk about the recantation because today today I was found guilty not based upon the statements that I signed that
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very explicitly implicated Patrick and the crime those were ruled by the European Court of human rights as not
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admissible as evidence in the CA in the case of slander against me Italy deter like after the European Court ruled in
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my fa saying that my human rights have been violated and I never should have been convicted of of Colonia of slander
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I brought the case back to Italy to have my have the conviction overturned and Italy did overturn the conviction and
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sent it back for retrial and limited the evidence to a single document a handwritten note that I wrote after I
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had been coerced into making those statements while I was still in police custody and while I still did not have
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access to an attorney but nevertheless that I wrote with my own hand MH recanting what
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had just happened during my interrogation so wait so it's not based on the confession it's based on the
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recantation yes yes this is what is so Bonkers about this case is that they decided to
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cherry-pick phrases from my recantation to claim that I was AC I was accusing Patrick of the crime right so
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like there are statements in that recantation which is like where and again like this is me coming out of a
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fog of like psychological manipulation and confusion where I'm going who is the real murderer and I cannot be used as
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condemning testimony like I I basically woke up from a living Nightmare and realized that they were going to sit me
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on the stand and have me point the finger at my friend Patrick the Mumba as the murderer and I could not do that and
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so I wrote down this statement saying I am scared I'm confused I know I said all
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these things but I don't like they feel like a dream I'm I don't I doesn't feel real I cannot be used as testimony
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against Patrick but then they cite things from this recantation where I said I stand by the statements I made
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last night that Patrick could have been the murderer I wrote that because they had spent the entire night yelling at me
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and calling me a liar and I was trying to say I I wasn't lying when I said I thought he could have been the murderer
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but I don't know like I just don't know and they used that phrase to say that I was accusing Patrick of murder and it to
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be and to be clear that wasn't enough to find me guilty in this case they also had to prove that I had to know that he
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was guilty or so that he was innocent and that I was falsely accusing him I had to know that he was innocent and how
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could I know unless I I had to know by being physically present at the crime scene so that's what you're saying when
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you're saying this is like the Crux of it yes it's that in order to know it puts you there and putting you there is
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basically them saying like okay whatever happened with the murder conviction doesn't matter that you were declared
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innocent we still put you there there you were there and you knew he was innocent and you accused him
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anyway and they and you know like the thing that they say to like prove that I was there is that in this recantation I
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talk about how I I I like I talk about this these dreamlike things that I had been coerced into to saying I say like I
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I dreamed that I heard a scream I and you know and then they say well Amanda said she heard a scream and she could
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only know that Meredith was screaming if she was there and therefore she was there I anyone who knows anything about
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that crime scene knows that she was probably screaming or like anyone who knows anything about
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homicides as if you couldn't [ __ ] guess that someone who's being raped and murdered was screaming and yet they say
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that it is irrefutable proof that I was physically there when the crime occurred
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and that I knew Patrick was innocent and accused him anyway that that is what just
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happened and I'm and it's I just like I can't get over the absurdity of it a little bit because like I think everyone
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right like your innocence on the murder charge is all based around this idea that your confession even to start so
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forget the recantation your confession to start was coerced and the practices they used were illegal H and how can you
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say all of that and then use the something from that as the basis for another guilty verdict like it it feels
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I I feel insane I feel you must feel ins I feel really insane right now um and you know it's it's funny because even
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Italy like at the very beginning ruled that my interrogation had been illegal like a judge very early on recognized
00:29:08
that I I had been denied the right to an attorney that my interrogation should have been recorded as it was a law there
00:29:16
in Italy at the time and the and the prosecutor said well she was never a suspect she was just a witness and so
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her interrogation was not she was not entitled to an attorney and she was not entitled to have her you know her
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interrogation recorded the a judge called [ __ ] on that from the very beginning and said that the statements
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that were signed there would not be admissible for the murder charge but they allowed it to be
00:29:44
admissible for the slander charge and so a jury was asked to disregard a piece of
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evidence in one instance but to keep it in mind for another and does did the jury have like the
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context for everything or do you think they were like operating in a silo like I get the system like that's after you
00:30:07
but like why this jury like I don't understand what they're operating like like how they're operating or what
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they're thinking I mean I suppose that people are psychologically able to distinguish between what evidence to
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keep in mind for one charge while and like to basically hear it in one ear and then not hear it in the other ear
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somehow um I don't know like it it never made sense to me um in the same way that it
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also never made sense to me that the jury wasn't sequestered like they were they absolutely had full access to all
00:30:40
of the media that was surrounding the case and so there are a lot of questions about whether or not I was given the
00:30:47
right to a fair trial with a you know a a jury that wasn't being influenced by things that it shouldn't be influenced
00:30:54
by um there's a lot about this case that is just heartbreaking in the end um I feel
00:31:04
a little heartbroken right now um but again like that's okay it's okay that I'm hurting right
00:31:16
now and and then and tomorrow I'll get back up again and get back to work and this is like do you feel a
00:31:28
sense of finality now that I mean this really was the last thing hanging over you and it has been hanging over you for
00:31:34
almost two decades like does it feel like it's over you know a lot of people ask me
00:31:43
um why don't I just move on right like why haven't I moved on from this years ago
00:31:52
and I it it kind of makes me laugh a little bit because um the case would never let me move on
00:32:03
the case was never going to be done with me like I know that technically I'm I have no further recourse and I will
00:32:11
forever forever be wrongly convicted of this but like I am forever the girl who is accused of murder whether I like it
00:32:21
or not whether I disappear or not I like just the other day um I went to the emergency room and as I was sitting
00:32:33
there waiting to be examined by this nurse she take a look at my she took a look at my chart and was like oh you're
00:32:40
Amanda noox it's too bad that other one ruined your name for you and I said I am that other
00:32:50
one this idea that I'm to blame I for everything bad that's happened to me that doesn't just go away that's
00:33:07
something that I'm going to live with forever and the thing that like [ __ ] breaks my heart about all of this is
00:33:15
that I really really hoped that um I really hoped that a an acquittal in this case would finally help Meredith's
00:33:27
family real realiz that I wasn't there that I really wasn't that I really had nothing to do with it and that I really
00:33:36
have been on their side this whole time I was really hoping that maybe one day we would be able to like make a
00:33:45
connection and grieve together for everything that we all lost and I don't know if that's ever going to happen
00:33:53
now have they made any kind of statement after the verdict or no you know I haven't been watching the media at all
00:34:00
and then know it literally just happened so I don't even know if if they have gotten their bearings yeah I don't know
00:34:07
um this is an opportunity to like like every bad thing um I do feel uh like this is a really big
00:34:17
opportunity for me to continue to help people to understand how this happens um how how
00:34:28
current practices um are not actually helping police solve crimes like that's the just
00:34:36
the the thing that breaks my heart about all of this is it's like the police when
00:34:41
they lie and when you know and then when they coerce they think that they're doing the right thing the police in my
00:34:48
case genuinely thought I I believe I I believe that they genuinely thought that I had some like I was covering for
00:34:58
someone and I wasn't telling the whole truth and so if they just lied to me enough and if they just bered me enough
00:35:03
and if they just slapped me enough they would get the truth out of me but unfortunately they're using tactics that
00:35:11
are simply coercive to innocent people and that derail Justice in the first place so you
00:35:19
know they are not just breaking the will of innocent people they are loosening our grip on reality when they lie to us
00:35:27
and they and and and they they threaten us and they also you know offer alternative
00:35:34
explanations like you have trauma induced Amnesia you're just a witness like these are all tactics these are all
00:35:42
tactics that police are taught it's bananas that they can do that and that they can lie like I can't it's it's wild
00:35:49
to me it goes It goes against common sense and when you tell somebody like I KN I when I was interrogated I had no
00:35:57
idea that police could lie to you I had no idea which is why I was especially vulnerable I trusted them I was raised
00:36:07
to to I was raised to give difference to them and to do whatever they told me to
00:36:13
do and when they lied to me and said they had proof that I was at my house the night the crime occurred it made me
00:36:22
question my own sanity yeah like it's as simple as that and I'm I I'm not the only one that this
00:36:31
has ever happened to ultimately like I I thought for a long time that I was and I
00:36:35
I grieved and I I hated myself and I blamed myself and then I learned that this is not an isolated incident and
00:36:43
that I am not common it's eerily common it's so eerily common do you think in the last 18 years like do you feel like
00:36:54
you've seen a shift in how people think about coerced conf confessions or do you
00:37:00
think there's still so much educating that needs to be done like I mean again I I'm living in this world so like the
00:37:06
idea of a false confession to me and a coerced confession I'm like yeah of course but do you still feel like you
00:37:10
get push back from people I feel like people find it really counterintuitive there's this resistance
00:37:17
to the idea that they would ever say something that would put themselves at risk or or you know
00:37:27
and and then and then I find myself you know in situations where I'm testifying you know in front of the Washington
00:37:34
legislature about like how damaging deception is in the interrogation room and then a police representative comes
00:37:41
up right after me and says that he can't he cannot protect the public without lying to them and it
00:37:48
just it just we live we live in a more Looney Tune world than we than we realiz and
00:37:57
unless you're like in this world and like aware of it it is happening and it won't happen to you until it does and
00:38:05
that's the thing is like unless you're in in the crime junkie world or in the in the True Crime Universe like you
00:38:10
don't know and so so then you're exactly in the position you were in when all of
00:38:13
a sudden you're pulled in one day and you have no idea this is a thing and you don't know what they are or are not
00:38:17
allowed to do exactly and like the only way you can be prepared is to arm yourself like with knowledge I I I
00:38:24
suppose and and I think that one of the things that is so horrible but that is weaponized against us by the people we
00:38:32
have you know given the power to to take away our freedom and to even take away our lives if they have to they believe
00:38:41
that we are be like they can better serve Us by us being ignorant and us being more vulnerable and it's just
00:38:48
scary it's scary it is really really scary and I think you know a lot of us are fortunate enough where we feel like
00:38:58
we don't have to think about it because we don't have lots of encounters with the police and you know like I don't
00:39:02
want to demonize the police either to be fair like I want to be very fair to the
00:39:07
police and recognize that they have a very important and very difficult job and a lot of the time they they have
00:39:13
sitting across from them in the interrogation room people who have committed crimes and do not want to
00:39:18
admit to it I get it I absolutely get it you know who is Chief number one uh for
00:39:24
that for me is Rudy Gade who raped and murdered my roommate and then blamed me for it like I get it he is a
00:39:30
psychopathic liar and how do you talk to somebody like that and you're tempted as
00:39:36
a police officer especially in the very early stages of the of investigating the
00:39:41
crime to try to get some kind of incriminating statement from someone that you believe is lying to you the
00:39:48
problem is that police officers routinely mistake innocent people for guilty people and guilty people for innocent
00:39:57
people because they're they think that they're these Grand intuitive deception experts and they are no better than any
00:40:05
random person at guessing if someone is telling the truth or telling a lie and so when they employ these very very
00:40:13
effective tactics at breaking the will and the mind of the person sitting across from them they don't really know
00:40:19
if you're guilty or innocent and so they should not be using these tactics and instead they should be employing
00:40:26
different tactics that are very effective at getting information without lies the the Strategic use of of Truth
00:40:35
for instance um to give an example they know that the person sitting across from
00:40:41
them was in the bar at 10:00 last night they bring the guy in they ask him hey where were you um last night and the guy
00:40:48
says I was at home and they say well that's interesting because we have video evidence of you here at this you know
00:40:54
here at this bar suddenly you've caught someone in a Lie by telling them the truth you do not have to lie to them in
00:41:01
order to arrive at that you just have to have some semblance of evidence before you bring someone in for for to accuse
00:41:08
them of a crime the other thing that we should be doing without question there's
00:41:11
no excuse is recording all question like all interviews and interrogations with authority figures like if there's one
00:41:20
thing that I've learned in the past you know 18 years and through all of my experience like we did a whole big false
00:41:26
confession series on my podcast labyrinths like one of the huge takeaways is it is
00:41:31
2025 every single person has a recording device in their pocket there is no excuse for any interaction with an
00:41:40
authority figure be it uh your principal or or you or especially a police officer
00:41:46
for for it not to be recorded just so we know just in case witness suspect anyone because we all also know that
00:41:58
Witnesses are pressured by police to incriminate people and then come back later in these wrongful conviction cases
00:42:04
saying that they were pressured and you know what Witnesses do not have the same
00:42:08
kind of protections that suspects do they are not entitled to the right to an attorney they are not entitled to having
00:42:15
their interrogate their in their interviews recorded they do not have to sign away
00:42:20
their Miranda rights Witnesses have no rights and so they get pressured by police officers to implicate innocent
00:42:29
other people and so like there's no excuse for not having a recording device for every
00:42:37
single interaction so we know what really went H went down behind closed doors and is that something that you
00:42:44
like you're encouraging people to do even on their own absolutely oh my God but like in all of my all of my advocacy
00:42:52
work and all of my writing like it is it's it's just common sense at this point and any resistance to this common
00:42:59
sense is coming from a place of fear on the part of the cops because they don't want to lose a tool that is very
00:43:09
effective at um obtaining convictions and you know like I get I get it that it's hard and we want to do
00:43:17
the right thing and we want to get the bad guy but you have to have the humility to understand that you may be
00:43:25
wrong and there are rules in place to protect people in case you're wrong and you know like I just I it it bugs the
00:43:34
crap out of me that police will call you a witness just so they can circumvent your
00:43:41
rights as a suspect and only later just turn around and say that you're you're like it's Shady it's Shady AF is what it
00:43:51
is so I mean you said that like I mean this has this has been a a defining case for you you for the last 18 years and
00:43:59
not even by choice right like the the world wouldn't let it not define you with this verdict being the end of your
00:44:08
legal Saga what do you hope defines you in the next 18 years um well I I have not been sitting
00:44:20
idle while all this has been happening um I have been very very busy um I'm routinely advocating for the wrongly
00:44:29
convicted I'm on the board of the Innocence Center I'm an innocence Network Ambassador I have you know I
00:44:36
have a new book coming out in March called free where I talk about reintegrating into society and
00:44:41
establishing a relationship with my prosecutor um I I'm producing a limited series for Hulu right now I'm I'm I'm
00:44:50
working on some comedy because you know what what yes so here so again like oh this tragic figure that is like accused
00:44:59
of a horrible crime surely like I can't tell you like people think that I live inside this true Tri True Crime tragedy
00:45:09
box and I am actually at heart a theater geek and and comedy fanatic and I'm working on some comedy and so like wait
00:45:19
like I got to like is this like standup am I going to go watch like Amanda noox on stage doing standup I have done
00:45:25
standup actually and yeah uh yeah I'm working on I'm yeah and I I mean I was just on um this new peacock show called
00:45:33
laid it's a comedy with um with zja mammo like I have this great scene with zoa mammo in um this comedy called uh L
00:45:43
it's actually great because zoa's character is like a true crime fanatic and would very much be a crime junky fan
00:45:50
so you should you should watch I'm going immediately yeah um so I you know I I would love to be defined by the things I
00:45:58
actually do as opposed to the thing that I didn't do and I don't know if that's ever going to be the case but that's not
00:46:07
going to discourage me from continuing to do what I feel like is just the very best I can with what I'm given I'm given
00:46:16
a sense of humor I'm going to make some comedy I'm given a tragedy I'm going to rise above it like the world and life
00:46:23
just gives you a bunch of problems to solve and you either get discouraged or you
00:46:29
get busy and so I've just been busy well in serendipitous or strange timing you were given a guilty verdict but I also
00:46:38
just heard that you were at the same time given an award I mean by a different group of people but can you
00:46:44
talk about that yeah I I'm I'm still sort of processing this fact because I literally like just got the call that I
00:46:54
was awarded um so the the Innocence network is um you know all of the Innocence projects
00:47:03
throughout the United States and the world and um and they have this uh they they have a conference once a year every
00:47:10
year it's actually this this year is going to be in Seattle so if you come you can come to Seattle and I can show
00:47:16
you around I would love that that would be so cool um and they have this award that is for um it's it's created to
00:47:24
honor a freed or Exon ated person who basically just raises awareness about wrongful convictions and policy issues
00:47:32
and and assists other wrongly convicted people and it's a it's a big deal award and there's you know hundreds and
00:47:39
hundreds of us and I just got word that they're giving it to me this year congratulations for all the work
00:47:48
congratulations which is just you know like after having so many bad things happen happened to me I
00:47:57
almost feel kind of comfortable and safe when bad things happen to me because it's
00:48:03
like okay I'm used to that like I'm familiar with that okay I I like something bad is happening to me I don't
00:48:09
have to be like AF afraid that something else bad like it's almost like if some if this bad thing has happened to me
00:48:14
then something else is not going to happen to me and then when good things happen or or even like you know if
00:48:21
something bad is happening to me maybe something good will happen to me like it's that's the like the feeling and
00:48:26
then when good things happen to me I'm almost scared that something bad is going to happen to me it it always so
00:48:31
here I am once again a bad thing happens to me but then a good thing happens to me it's interesting right like it's this
00:48:38
end marker on this thing that did Define you for so long and then maybe this is like the beginning marker of something
00:48:44
that like how your life is going to be defined from here on out yeah that's yeah I you know fingers crossed and you
00:48:50
know what like I'm I'm prepared for the good the bad the ugly the beautiful I'm I I can be nimble I can be agile I will
00:49:01
survive um it really is nice to talk to someone who believes me because not everyone
00:49:08
does and that can make you feel feel really alone and really crazy so it really does matter to me that you're
00:49:15
talking with me today and that you believe me and um and I'm just so excited also I don't know if I'm allowed
00:49:23
to say this to be working on something with you so like I mean like a speaking of wrongful convictions um I hear that
00:49:32
you are going to actually be taking my seat with dilia on an upcoming Q&A episode on
00:49:38
counterclock and then you and I do have this little secret project in the works that's coming very soon so I'm so
00:49:46
excited for it I'm so proud of it I'm so honored that you thought of me for it um
00:49:53
you know it's I'm just thrilled thrilled and um I don't know I don't know if anybody wants
00:50:00
to hear me be more sad and upset about this whole scenario but um I do have some pretty raw reactions upon hearing
00:50:08
the news of the verdict that are on my podcast labyrinths if you want to check it out um where else can they find you
00:50:15
if they want to follow you see what you're doing next ah great question so um you can subscribe to my podcast
00:50:22
labyrinths um I also uh you can find all of my work at Amanda Knox um if you're an Instagram person I'm
00:50:29
amama KNX and if you're on blue sky I'm at amanda.com and one more reminder on the name of your book and when it's
00:50:37
coming out yes yes so free my search for meaning is um is going to come out in March um you can pre-order now or
00:50:47
pre-order it now and Goodreads is currently doing a giveaway so um if you want to get the book early and maybe
00:50:54
write a review you can submit an applic to good reads um and yeah I I think the the most surprising thing people are
00:51:02
going to find in that book is how I've built a relationship with uh my prosecutor the man who signed my arrest
00:51:12
warrant and put me in prison and um and what that weird Journey has been like your whole life weird Journey that that
00:51:21
should have been the title of the book weird Journey just what the [ __ ] is going on is
00:51:27
the sub subtitle well thank you so much I like especially in this moment when things are So Fresh So raw I really
00:51:33
appreciate you sitting down and explaining what this is beyond just like the clickbaity headline so and thank you
00:51:41
for the opportunity to do so because I think a lot of people sort of overlooked this part of it because it felt like so
00:51:49
minor I didn't even is so Central to everything that went wrong and I think is really crucial to really
00:51:56
understanding what the [ __ ] happened with all of it and thank you for taking the time to
00:52:01
like educate all of us you didn't have to and I appreciate it and hopefully I'll see you in Seattle we'll figure it
00:52:06
out that would be so cool I love that perfect thank you Amanda thank you if you want to hear more content like this
00:52:13
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