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Hi Crime Junkies, I'm your host Ashley Flowers. >> Brit. >> And we're back for part two of Bonnie's
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story. If you missed last episode, pause, go back, you got to know where we've been to know where we're going.
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Because >> [music] >> where we left off, I'm sure it's easy for you to understand why people have
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been suspicious of Bonnie's husband since she went missing >> [music] >> in 1997. Bonnie and Rick's son even
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admitted to us that for a portion of his life growing [music] up, he wondered if
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his dad could have done something because he had everybody in his ear telling him [music] as much. He said he
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would even be willing to accept that his dad did it if police could prove it. Show him any evidence, even a theory
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[music] of how that makes actual sense and show him that they've looked into everyone
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[music] else. But they didn't. So we tried and I think there is an entirely different [music] side to this story
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that hasn't been told. Until now. When I say that police never really looked into anyone else because they
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were so suspicious of Rick, I also want to be clear that I don't think they ever
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really did a thorough enough look at Rick to justify their suspicions. They never searched his house in those early
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years. They only searched it in 2000 when Rick was getting the house ready to sell. The police I guess had heard that
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he changed out the carpet and there might have been a stain on the subfloor. So they got a warrant, ripped up the
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carpet, tested [music] the stain, but it wasn't any kind of bodily fluid. They didn't do any kind of forensic testing
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in the garage, which like in my mind, if your theory is that he followed her, wouldn't it make sense that something
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happened in the garage? No one even bothers to check for that. >> So they're really just basing their
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suspicions on Rick on like what? The fact that she wanted a divorce and the number one mom necklace that Gretchen
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gave investigators. Like that's not a lot. And I think the fact that he knew where to look for her and on the route
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that we know she drove home. And also, I didn't mention this yet, but on phone records, Bonnie had a cell phone with
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her [music] and Rick said that he tried to call her when she was missing, but police say that the home phone records
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don't show any calls and the cell phone provider says that there had been no activity on Bonnie's cell since like a
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day or two before she went missing. But the problem I have with this is they never got Rick's cell phone records. And
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when we asked to see Bonnie's records to prove that there were no unanswered incoming calls, the police said they
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don't have them. They said there was like some kind of issue getting the records from the phone company, so they
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were just told verbally by her provider, which I don't know. I've seen enough human error over the years that like
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that is not going to like convince it or like I'm not going to convict someone for that based on that.
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>> Well, yeah, and I also wonder what the cell provider actually logged. Like did
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unanswered incoming calls even register back then? I mean, there's so many questions.
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>> I don't know for sure since we could not obviously get the actual records and I
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know every provider is different and we're talking 1997, that's a whole different beast. But I mean, I've seen
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in other true crime cases that date back to the '90s where back then it would only log the calls that would be charged
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and you were only charged if you placed the call or answered the incoming call. >> was like an actual connected call.
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>> Now, the other thing that I see police spend time asking Rick about in like the
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transcripts that we got is a financial motive for wanting his wife gone. Before Bonnie went missing, the couple cashed
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out on a life insurance policy for like $18,000 and they spent a lot of time talking
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about this check that came for that. It came after Bonnie disappeared, but it's like not spicy at all to me. Rick had
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taken out a loan against his like profit sharing plan at his company and without
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getting to the weeds on this, it would basically be like taking out money against your 401k or something and he
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was thinking about changing jobs, but if he changed jobs before it was paid off,
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there would be this really big penalty. So they cashed out the life insurance policy that would by the way was on Rick
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and they did it together. People knew that Bonnie was aware of it. >> Okay. Some say that she had to kind of
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be like talked into it, but she was aware of it. >> And like it's a financial decision.
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Maybe she legitimately did need to be talked into it, right? >> Yeah, and investigators confirmed that
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the money did go to paying off that profit sharing thing. [music] So it's not like he's making money off her going
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missing. >> Did she have any other life insurance policies? She did. She had two and they
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totaled like 50 grand, but those are life insurance. Like you get paid out when someone is dead, not if someone
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just goes missing. So while he does end up getting that, he doesn't see a dime of that until he has Bonnie declared
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dead seven years later in 2004. Yeah, I guess I don't think money is like the driving thing here and no
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matter what happened, right? >> Agreed. I mean, they never had a lot of money, not before Bonnie went missing,
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not after, [music] but they also didn't have money problems. They lived within their means,
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they tried to take care of their kids and Rick carried that on after Bonnie was gone.
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>> [music] >> The kids lived with him in Indy and then in Kalamazoo, Michigan where Rick
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eventually moved in 2000 for a new job and it was probably a good fresh start for him and for Gretchen and Josh.
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Though Josh didn't go right away. He was 18 by that point. He stayed behind in Indy for a couple of years, but it was
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good because here in Indy, there was always this cloud of suspicion hanging over Rick, but without investigators
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ever really pulling the trigger. So it's like he can't clear his name. You just like live in this weird limbo.
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>> And did they ever do any more interviews with him? Like even ask him about some of the weird
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stuff? It doesn't seem like it. At least not for a long time. In 2007, the law enforcement division of the Marion
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County Sheriff's Department and the Indianapolis Police Department, so there were two different agencies at the time.
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They consolidated and that's what we now know as IMPD and that is who is the lead agency
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today. So around that time, that's when Detective Katherine Byron finally goes up to Michigan and has another
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conversation with Rick like 10 years in the making [music] and Josh gave us that transcript as
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well. So I figured you should hear exactly what Rick had to say. Now again, I would have loved for you to hear it
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from his own mouth, but our records request from IMPD was denied, right? So we're having voice actors read this
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transcript. Whenever there's a controversial trial, do you ever wonder, did the jury get it
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right? I'm Brandi Churchwell and this [music] is the 13th Juror podcast where we break
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down real court cases and put you in the juror's seat. All right, jury entering courtroom.
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When the gavel [music] falls, the jury's decision may be final, but the debate is
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far from over. Listen to 13th Juror [music] wherever you get your podcasts. We the jury find as follows as to the
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count. >> [music] >> This is a tape statement being conducted by Katherine Byron of the Indianapolis
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Metropolitan Police Department. Today's date is April 25th, 2007. The time is now approximately 10:25 a.m. and we are
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located in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Present are myself and Mr. Richard Schultz. Okay.
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Um I guess this is a meeting that's been what? 10 years in the making? Pretty close. And I called you about what? Uh
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six weeks ago? Something like that. Yes. Completely out of the blue, right? Yeah.
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Um so this is really other than that initial phone call and a couple of scheduling phone calls here and there,
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this is really the first time we've had an opportunity to talk. Correct. Okay. And And I am recently the new
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detective reassigned to your wife's case, Bonnie. The missing person's case. Um I know it's been 10 years, but what can
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you remember? What can you tell me about that? Can you just kind of start from the beginning for me and
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Well, again, the night of July 3rd, 1997, um Bonnie was going out with people she
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worked with. I believe it was somebody's birthday party for somebody she worked with.
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Um I don't even remember where she said they were going. Um but she left the house at 8:00, 8:30
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in the evening um and again went went with the people from work who again, because of the nature of her work, I I
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didn't know any of them because they worked late night evenings and I was home with the kids. Right. Um and and
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again, I know it's been 10 years, so um what did you do? What What's your best recollection of that evening?
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I was home with Gretchen. >> Mhm. I'm pretty sure Josh spent the night with friends, but Gretchen and I were at
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home. I don't remember specifically what we did. I don't remember necessarily going
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anywhere, but she was only 10. So um we were at home. She went to bed whatever time she normally did.
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Um she got up the next morning, I think around 8:00, 8:30 or something like that. That's her normal time. Bonnie
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wasn't home yet and I didn't know specifically who she had gone out with the night before, so
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I waited a little while to see if, you know, if she maybe stayed somewhere else and was going to come home and then
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started looking around the house for trying to find a list of names of people she worked with. And
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so later that day in the afternoon, and I don't remember exactly when in the afternoon, I think I found a list of
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some of the people and Anita's name was on there. That's the lady she said that she was going out with. Uh I called her
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house a a of times and got no answer. And then later that day, which would be the 4th of July, Anita's daughter called
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and said that my number had come up on her caller ID a couple of times. I said I was trying to get a hold of her mom to
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see if she knew where Bonnie was. And Anita's daughter must have called her and then I talked to Anita and she said
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well, as far as she knew Bonnie had headed home. So that that's when I called the sheriff's department to file
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a missing person's report late afternoon on July 4th. And they squad car person, that's not the right
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term, but came over and took the statement and said that somebody would be in contact with me in a day or two.
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Now just jumping in real quick, I gave you the short version last time of how he got in contact with Anita, but this
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is similar to the story that he told 10 years prior. So so far everything is pretty consistent. Uh I I guess at what
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point did you start to think something was not right? As soon as I talked to Anita, I think.
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Cuz she had said Bonnie had headed home. And I knew she hadn't gotten there. So obviously that was my when I got
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concerned. Cuz you know, I thought maybe if again they partied too much or whatever, she stayed with a friend and
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would get home sooner or later that that next day. But once that lady told me that
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that wasn't the case and that's that's what triggered the call to the sheriff's department. Is that a common occurrence?
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No. That >> No. That Bonnie wouldn't come home. >> No, not at all. So that's why when I woke up the next
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morning or when Gretchen woke up, I don't remember exactly who got up first, I realized she wasn't there. So then I
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was trying to find out uh again who she might have been with or a phone number or whatever, but
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um it took me a while to find some stuff around the house. Right. That was really kind of before
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everybody had a cell phone and >> Well, actually she did have a phone. Did she? She did have a cell phone and
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and again we tried to call that and got no answer. And I don't remember who the service was
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with, but for several weeks after that I called them on a daily basis to see if there had been any activity on the on
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the line. Because first of all, they said well, you have to wait till you get your statement. I said well, I don't
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want to wait a month. Then I can explain the situation and then I I was calling every day or every other day to see if
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anything or if anybody had used the phone during the course of that time. It hadn't been used at all.
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Hold up. Was Detective Byron playing dumb about the cell phone to see what he said or did no one look at the cell
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until 2007? I'm not sure if she's playing dumb or if she hadn't reviewed like the old notes yet and like wasn't
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up to speed. >> Yeah, but he brings it up. Like why bring it up if you're lying?
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>> Right. Why point it out? >> Yeah, and it seems like he's going out of his way to check the cell. Also, he's
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saying that he called Anita on the 4th and talked to her before he reported Bonnie missing. He didn't call her until
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the next day though. Right. So that this is a small inconsistency, but this is 10
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years later and he's a day off. Like maybe it's a slip. But to me it doesn't change the facts
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that much. >> Yeah, but it like the slip up does give him like the reason to know where the
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Timeout Lounge is now, which is what back then they said the big mess up was. >> Sure, but I mean they they can just go
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back and listen to his recorded interview from '97 and then be right back where we started. So like to me
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it's not like he's like fooling at any I don't know. We could go round and round
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and round. So let's just go back to the tape. Okay. And the car? Uh never found as far as I can. As far
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as I know. That's what Sergeant Kelly, Mike Kelly Mhm. That's what he said was his biggest surprise.
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Uh bodies are much more easy to hide than than a big car. So and that was his biggest surprise after
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the last time we talked, which I don't even remember when that was, was it the efforts that he had gone through to try
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and find the car. But uh And did you ever talk to Sergeant Ryan? Sergeant Ryan? Uh that's actually who I took the
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case from. You know, I believe I got a phone call at some point in time that he I think it was a he
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>> Mhm. uh had taken had taken the case. And when I moved up here, I called him,
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got his answering service and said that I was, you know, for for job reasons was
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moving up here. Mhm. And left him the at that point in time my new office number
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cuz I didn't have the home number yet. When did you move up here? August of 2000. But he never called.
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It's been at least that long since I've heard from anybody. Right. That was probably kind of shocking when you get
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my phone call. Yes. Cuz I think I as I think I told you on the phone conversation, you know, I had a meeting
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with five or six different people from the sheriff's department. Um deputy chief.
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I'm sorry the names escape me. That's okay. Um cuz you know, I wasn't real happy with the way I was being treated.
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I mean, I understood or I still understand I guess that I'm a I'm a suspect, but I've often thought,
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you know, I'm a victim too and nobody was telling me anything. Right. And not that I I mean, I watch too much TV. I
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know. Not that I expect to get all the inside information, but it would it would be nice to at least have been told
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some of what was found out or whatever. But at that point in time they told me that they had pretty much done
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everything that they could do. And and again I got assurance from, you know, two or three levels up from the
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people that I had been talking with that everything was being done that could be
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done. And um that they were just going away for something to happen. Either they find the car or or they find
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Bonnie or somebody comes forward and says I got something or I know something. And
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I something like that ever happened, they would contact me. Quick pause. I got to be really honest here. 10 years
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on, Rick is seeming pretty reasonable. I know. >> Like no one seems to be doing much outside of
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just thinking he's kind of sus. And they're basically like well, we hope we find her or her car or someone
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confesses and we'll just let you know if that happens. It's very much like a like
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don't call us, we'll call you vibes. Yeah. And have they done any actual searches for her or I mean the car I
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mean in the past 10 years? Like I know the family did, but what about the actual detectives on the case?
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>> So they did extensive searching. Like they did multiple air searches. I know with like a helicopter looking for signs
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of her car. I know they also did several water searches over the years, but they
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didn't have sonar back in 1997. So they had to use a police dive team and when they did that, they didn't find
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anything. And they did a lot of legwork too, but all the legwork was very much like around this like any idea that
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could help them prove like the Rick did it theory. So they went to all these storage units in the Indianapolis area I
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think looking for her car. They checked all of the bus records and cab records thinking that if Rick got rid of her and
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her car, he would have had to get a ride back home, but they never found that he
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was on any buses or took any cab. No storage units either. So going back to the tape, in this interview, they ask
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Rick what he thought could have happened. What is your theory? 10 years, what is
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>> [snorts] >> what is what has gone through your mind in 10 years? You know, the TV guy, Scott, asked me that over
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the phone and it's like, you know, I don't know. I guess, you know, it's as I told him originally, I said I
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don't think she would just voluntarily leave, especially her children. If she encountered something that she
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couldn't get herself out of, I mean, you'd think again the car would have been found by now. Uh if she had a
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accident, I mean, the car would have been found right away. So I mean, I don't know. I don't know how you hide
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something like that for that long a period of time. Uh unless and I still don't think I don't think
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she voluntarily ran away. And if she did, I don't think she would stay away this long. But
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>> Right. It'd be pretty hard for someone to conceal herself and the car for this
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amount of time. But the other thing is is if somebody took her, how did they how how did they hide the car for this
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long a period of time? I mean, I watch TV and stuff like that. That's based on real events, but you know, it gets
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stretched or whatever. I mean, you could park a car in your garage, but would you
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leave it sit there for 10 years and nobody would nobody else would see it? That doesn't seem to make any sense. So
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I don't know. I I guess inside I don't think that she would have voluntarily run away. So I
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think again either she had too much to drink that night and encountered a situation that she couldn't get herself
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out of, but what that could be, I don't know. So just like a quick behind the scenes
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real quick. So in the transcript, the part where he says you could leave it in your garage, but like would you do that
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for 10 years and nobody would see it. That is actually highlighted and starred like someone found it important. I don't
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know who, but it kind of seems like someone was like, ah, maybe he's like slipping up and telling us what he did.
00:20:04
Like Which like, sure. Too bad they didn't look in the garage right after she disappeared. They waited like what,
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a decade for that to actually happen? >> Three years. Like it was three years when they went back to check. But like
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also there's no way it was in the garage. Gretchen was there, she lived there. Josh was there, he lived there.
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>> Yeah, her her family, Bonnie's family, came the next week. Like they're all driving around in the cars that they
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had. And I don't know, again, I don't know what it means. I only brought it up because I feel like it just gives you a
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little bit of context and a sense that I think that they might have come into this interview with a strong opinion.
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And this is really, you know, what Josh has been saying, that all the work that they're willing to do is to
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try to look at Rick, try to get Rick to slip up, and it doesn't seem like they're really looking for other
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investigative avenues, [music] even 10 years later when she and the car still haven't been found.
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Um, and there were some marital problems, right? [snorts] Yeah, there was. Uh, and who doesn't? I
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mean, what what marriage is without problems? What were the issues? Do you remember? You
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know, I I've spent a lot of time thinking about that over the years. And um you know, Bonnie, I think, and again, in
00:21:12
in thinking back, you know, she changed quite a bit after her mother died. Her mother died 2 years before this
00:21:20
happened, I believe. And uh she [snorts] died of some type of cancer, but I mean, it was 2 months
00:21:28
after being diagnosed. Oh, it was quick. I think it hit her pretty hard. And then I started getting things, you
00:21:35
know, we don't have anything in common. And I I was comparing again over the years. That's what I see, saw in her
00:21:46
parents. Her mother was a genealogy person, and her dad was was a fisherman and stuff like that.
00:21:54
They had nothing in common, and I said, well, we're not unlike anybody else. I mean, we we each have our own interests,
00:22:03
but what we have in common are is the family. And uh it just seemed like she just started
00:22:11
getting more and more unhappy with lots of things. Uh, she said a couple of times she
00:22:18
wasn't happy because her family didn't come to visit her often enough. She [sighs]
00:22:23
uh she always had to go see them. And uh just she changed. And uh again uh I don't know if it was her mother or
00:22:34
or she had just became unhappy with me or life in general, but uh she just things that didn't bother her
00:22:43
before seemed to start bothering her. Did you ever talk about suicide? Never. Never. Again, she talked about thinking
00:22:51
about wanting to get a divorce. I said, well, you know, you should there should be some intermediate steps
00:22:58
between going from I'm unhappy to a divorce, which is what I was trying to talk her into before she disappeared.
00:23:06
And she seemed to be listening to that after a while. Um you know, we had a fairly long conversation that night
00:23:12
before she left about if we did divorce, what would or what would happen. She wanted to keep the kids and the house,
00:23:20
uh and I said, well, I don't know if I can do that. Now, he goes on to say some of the same
00:23:25
things he did in 1997. That financially he didn't know if they could swing two places, but he was
00:23:31
willing to try. Like his gesture to see if she wouldn't completely throw in the towel. He reiterates that they weren't
00:23:38
shouting that night. Nothing got out of control. They were out on the front porch in the view of Gretchen inside and
00:23:44
close to other neighbors. They they don't live out in the country. They like lived in a subdivision. So, at this
00:23:49
point in the interview, that's when Detective Byron asks him about Bonnie's affair, point blank. It's 10 years
00:23:54
later. Was Bonnie having an affair? Not that I know of. Not that you know of. I'm sure you've heard that over the
00:24:02
years or >> Several people have asked, but not that I know of. Um and you didn't remarry?
00:24:09
No. Over the 10 years? No. Gone about on a few dates, but it just it just doesn't
00:24:15
feel right. Still that hope. Really? Tell me about that. Uh I'm hoping she'll come back.
00:24:23
It's not very likely, but I I hate to give up hope. Has this been weighing on you for the last 6 weeks? I
00:24:30
mean, not not to mention 10 years, but has it? No. Has my phone call brought it to surface again? No. No? Cuz it
00:24:39
>> [sighs and gasps] >> it's always there. It never goes away. You know, the kids are, you know,
00:24:46
Gretchen's out on her own, more or less. Josh works or whatever. He's gone. Um sitting here with the dog at night.
00:24:55
And uh you know, that's it. It never goes away. And uh yeah. We haven't sat down and had a
00:25:04
face-to-face contact with anybody outside of the three of us for a long time. But um
00:25:12
again, I you know, I've been up here for 6 and 1/2 years. Uh I haven't had any desire to date anybody
00:25:20
or whatever in that period of time. I went out a couple of times when I was in Indy, right?
00:25:26
Not right away, but after a while. But it just it just wasn't right. And I still
00:25:34
still feel that way. And it's like, you know, you just you do what you have to to get by day by
00:25:40
day, and uh I know I had nothing to do with her disappearance, so that's what gets me
00:25:46
through day by day. I would love to know what happened. Sometimes I'm leery about wanting to
00:25:53
find out how it happened, cuz I don't know if I want to know the details. But I would sure like to know what
00:26:00
what happened. When you say the details, what do you mean? Well, I mean, if somebody murdered her,
00:26:06
I don't know what I want to know all of the details. Okay. Uh you know, did you suffer? That type of stuff. Um I don't
00:26:16
need to know that stuff. I'm not uh um not a tabloid type of person or whatever.
00:26:23
I mean, I watch the major news events or whatever, but the gory details don't really interest me. Like the Virginia
00:26:31
Tech stuff. I mean, obviously you want to know that stuff is going on, but the the tapes or whatever that were
00:26:38
released, which I I never did see. I don't really need to know all that type of stuff, but uh
00:26:45
again, I think we all like to know what happened. But how or um not sure who we'd like to know who if
00:26:55
something like that did happen. That's the the most difficult part of it all is not not knowing what happened. The lack
00:27:03
of closure. Although, you know I I've thought about that over the years, too. I don't know that there in a situation
00:27:10
like this that there ever is closure. I think there's a again, you know what? Resolution? Yeah, uh
00:27:18
and and close. I I know what most people mean when they say closure. It gives you
00:27:26
you know what happened. And I guess going forward from there and dealing with that is easier than what we've been
00:27:33
dealing with for 10 years. And that's we don't know what. Is there anything you found out that you
00:27:41
can tell me or us? No, not yet. Um like I said, I was just recently reassigned to the case. So, I'm starting
00:27:50
over looking at it with fresh eyes. So, I'm in the process right now sorting through everything and seeing what I can
00:27:57
do. So, unfortunately, no, I I don't really think I have anything new to tell you. I wish I that
00:28:06
this case can be resolved. I do believe that. What What is that based on? Just Detective Byron basically just says
00:28:14
based on the facts of the case, she thinks it's solvable and everyone deserves that, especially Bonnie's
00:28:21
family, her kids. She wants them to know that their mom didn't leave them. And then she hard pivots back to the morning
00:28:28
of July 4th asking what his first thoughts were. But he just says more of the same that he said back in '97. I
00:28:36
mean, it does feel like he's a little all over the map, though. Like he said earlier in the interview that he doesn't
00:28:42
believe that she just walked off, that she had to have encountered some kind of situation that she just couldn't get
00:28:47
herself out of. But then he talks about her like maybe coming back someday, even
00:28:52
if that's like some slim possibility. But maybe we're just getting a bite-sized version of what his mind has
00:28:57
been doing for the last 10 years. Like families of the missing say that ambiguous loss is the hardest. Without
00:29:03
knowing what happened, everything is a possibility. And listen, I'm not out here trying to be like the defender of
00:29:09
Rick. I'm just saying that like I've gone back and forth more times than I can even count on cases we've covered
00:29:15
over the last 8 years. I've gone back and forth more times than I can count on this very case alone over the last few
00:29:21
months. >> Right. And I'm not the one living with it day in and day out. But like Rick,
00:29:25
this is something he actually says. He tells Detective Byron he is living it >> [music]
00:29:29
>> every single day. He and the kids still talk about her. He sees things all the
00:29:35
time that remind him of Bonnie, and he is much more emotional, he says, as he's gotten older. Just very sentimental. And
00:29:43
it's at that point that Detective Byron brings the conversation back to a more focused question. She asks Rick if there
00:29:49
is anything that he thinks she should know. And it's not new information that he brings up. He's like, you know,
00:29:56
"I'm pretty frustrated with Detective Mike Kelly." He was the OG detective. Because apparently he went on a local TV
00:30:03
segment about Bonnie's case and talked about her leaving the bar the same time as that John guy we talked about. But
00:30:10
he's like, "That's how I had to find out about this John guy. Mike Kelly never told me."
00:30:16
Oh, it was on a TV show? That's what bothered me is why he felt he could disclose that on what was it,
00:30:22
national TV on TV, but he never felt that he should tell me that beforehand. Cuz again, I kept calling and asking if
00:30:31
if he was coming up with anything or whatever. Obviously, I was curious and wanted to know, but he for the longest
00:30:38
time he wouldn't call me back. And that's what kind of triggered my I think I wrote a letter to the sheriff.
00:30:45
Yeah. Saying, you know, I just don't think I'm being treated right. Again, from my naivety and
00:30:51
I just thought I just thought people should at least be telling me what's going on. But as far
00:30:57
as what I can tell you, it's like I said, she left home that night at 8:30 and I haven't heard or seen a thing from
00:31:05
her since then. Now, at first, this was like one of the only things I couldn't wrap
00:31:10
my head around from his whole second interview was this like time when he's asked if he thought Bonnie was having an
00:31:15
affair and he says he doesn't think so cuz it seems like such a big part of the narrative now. Yeah. But maybe he really
00:31:23
had no idea. I mean, remember her friend Anita and John? I mean, they clearly knew Jeremy Johnson had an affair with
00:31:28
her, but they're not talking to Rick. And if I go back to news reports from those very early days, even early years,
00:31:35
an affair is not mentioned. So, it's possible he really was in the dark even when police weren't.
00:31:45
Now, a year after that interview with Rick, the case ends up getting transferred again to a new lead
00:31:52
detective, Sergeant Daniel Kistner, who he's the one who we talked to for this episode. And he and another detective
00:31:58
decide to go back up to Michigan in 2008. >> [music] >> And in that time, they did a nearly
00:32:04
7-hour interview with Rick. Now, we don't have the transcript of that one and Sergeant Kistner wouldn't give it to
00:32:11
us, but he told us that Rick had vivid memories of his whole life except for the weeks leading up to Bonnie's
00:32:18
disappearance. [music] He kept saying that he couldn't recall many of the details and Sergeant Kistner
00:32:23
said that the interview got pretty tense [music] when he called him on it and suggested that he knew more. And after
00:32:29
that, IMPD ended up getting a search warrant for Rick's place up in Michigan and they collected all the electronic
00:32:35
devices in the house and Sergeant Kistner says they were also looking for that number one mom necklace, which now
00:32:40
all these years later was nowhere to be found. >> So, they take these devices, what were
00:32:44
they looking for on them? Cuz I assume that like they weren't the same phones or computers they had in '97. Literally
00:32:51
anything. I mean, Sergeant Kistner said they were looking for anything that could have like had a connection [music]
00:32:55
to Bonnie's disappearance like maybe in messages, in documents or browser search
00:33:00
history. And Sergeant Kistner says they did find out that Rick was keeping an eye on local Indianapolis news,
00:33:08
but not for anything specific. And they didn't find anything else that could have been connected to Bonnie's
00:33:15
disappearance. So, nothing comes of that search. And Josh told us that IMPD returned their computers and phones a
00:33:21
couple of years later, but they returned everything broken. And and this is the real kicker to me,
00:33:29
I get why the relationship is strained between them and police because I guess when they were doing the search of the
00:33:34
house, they found like a tiny amount of weed when they were searching in Josh's room or somewhere on Josh, whatever.
00:33:40
And he legit got charged for it. Sergeant Kistner said that he had no idea that happened. He said that would
00:33:46
have been done by like Michigan police and he never would have done that. He was just there to find out what happened
00:33:51
to Bonnie. Like he wouldn't have had any [music] interest in busting a kid for weed.
00:33:55
But listen, I'm not saying the police are wrong about their theory, but I I genuinely
00:34:01
still don't know what I think. But I fully get why the kids would be frustrated with them. Like
00:34:08
this whole scenario that's unfolding feels really frustrated and pointed and not backed by much.
00:34:16
>> Yeah, and and like at least from the way that Rick tells it, like or for what I've seen from his
00:34:21
transcripts, right? Like he's the one asking for updates and not getting much. Josh and his dad and relatives are the
00:34:26
ones out there searching for the whole weekend before the sheriff's office put anyone on the case. They're learning
00:34:30
stuff through the media. And now even the kids are treated like criminals. And Josh's wife Crystal told us that part of
00:34:37
the reason Gretchen doesn't like talking to people is because they always accuse
00:34:42
her of knowing more. That like [music] she was in the house that night and, you know, maybe it's not as big as her
00:34:47
covering up for something, but that she has to have like some secret piece of information locked away in her brain
00:34:52
about whether her dad left the house that night or if she heard her mom come home and something happened. And listen,
00:34:58
we heard this from multiple sources in our reporting. We heard it from investigators, even their own Uncle
00:35:03
Mike. But this is where I'm saying, just like hold on for 1 second. I get so many things look bad. But for 1 second,
00:35:12
if we kept an open mind, if we believed Gretchen that she doesn't know anything more. Her mom left. She
00:35:18
went to bed. When she woke up, her mom wasn't there, but her dad was and everything was normal.
00:35:23
What if there is nothing more to tell? What if we don't know what happened to Bonnie because her family truly doesn't
00:35:29
know and that is the only place anyone has really looked. So, remember Diane? Mhm. Bonnie's like
00:35:35
neighbor friend or like who lived close to her? >> Yeah. She was one of the people who
00:35:38
instantly became suspicious of Rick. This is Can I tell you something spooky that happened?
00:35:43
>> Always. >> full body chills when I was going through the the file and like all of the
00:35:48
interviews. So, losing her friend and never knowing what happened obviously is just something that never
00:35:54
left her. And when a reporter was interviewing her, she said that over the years at
00:36:00
like all different stages of [music] life, she had gone to mediums, three different ones, all separate. And each
00:36:08
one told her the same thing. They all said, "It's not who you think that did it."
00:36:17
What? What does that Maybe maybe nothing. What does that mean if not cuz cuz she thinks
00:36:24
like she said as soon as she's always thought >> she's always thought it's Rick. And
00:36:28
listen, even she's asking the same question I I like you started to ask because she was like if not him, then
00:36:33
who? Yes. She's like if not him, then who? If it's some random person, you don't need to make her car and her purse
00:36:38
and her credit cards and all that disappear. Yeah. Diane thinks it had to be someone she knew,
00:36:43
which is why she just like kept coming back to Rick, but then kept going to mediums who kept saying she was wrong.
00:36:49
Like Well, I mean, okay, but what if it is someone she knew, just someone else? Yeah, what if?
00:36:56
>> Or an accident. Or what if she walked off? Like I know it's almost unheard of, but
00:37:02
recently I came across the case of Brenda Heist. I was not familiar with this before, but her daughter reached
00:37:08
out to me and she is who I've had in the back of my head as I've been telling the
00:37:13
story because I know the easy answer is the husband. But it wasn't that way in her case.
00:37:19
Brenda, very much the same scenario. She was divorcing her husband and on the day
00:37:23
she disappeared, she was supposed to go look at apartments after dropping her kids off at school and then she just
00:37:28
vanished. And just like Rick, her daughter told us that her dad lived under suspicion for years. Everyone said
00:37:36
Brenda would never leave her kids. She has to be dead. And then guess what? 11 years later, Brenda was found alive
00:37:44
and well. She just left. Didn't plan it. Just like that morning said, "You know what? I'm going to start over." And
00:37:53
sure, yes, accident is still an option, too, but accident feels less likely the more bodies of water that are searched
00:38:01
over the years. Which bodies of water is like what people have always said, like
00:38:04
it had to have been a body of water that she went into and that's why the car has
00:38:07
never been found. But the currently detective on the case, Nicholas Hubbs, says that there have been more than 20
00:38:12
water searches for Bonnie's car in the past 10 years, lots with sonar now that they have it, including some done by a
00:38:19
private group. But I have to wonder, are we like making a wrong assumption there?
00:38:25
About what? About the car being in water because like on its face, you read about this case
00:38:31
and it's like, oh, like her car, you know, it was entered into like whatever whatever database,
00:38:36
the license plate or the VIN number, it's never popped up. So, like it has to be in water cuz that's why nobody's ever
00:38:40
found it. Maybe not? So, I was shocked when I talked to Josh and we learned that
00:38:48
investigators actually messed up in 1997. [music] Now, he's telling us this and we're like,
00:38:54
there's no like >> Let's let's double check, yeah. Turns out he's right. You see, the way it used
00:38:58
to work in 1997 was that an officer would make the report, make a phone call to the auto desk to have a vehicle
00:39:05
entered into NCIC, and it would either get entered as stolen or they would give information to have someone entered as
00:39:11
missing. So, it looks like in Bonnie's case, when a deputy called it in here, they only entered Bonnie as missing.
00:39:19
Now, they noted that her car was gone, too, but I don't think they actually entered the vehicle into the system at
00:39:25
the same time. >> So, it was just like and her car, but there was no details, not what it was,
00:39:29
no VIN, no license plate number. >> as a missing vehicle. >> Yeah. It wasn't until some point in 1999
00:39:36
when another detective comes across this case and is doing all of his like checks
00:39:40
and balances that he discovers the vehicle is not in the system as missing or stolen. Now, when this was realized,
00:39:46
they were able to go back and see if any agency had run the plate in the missing
00:39:51
2 years, but no one had. But to me, it also means that maybe no one was actively looking out for it, which the
00:39:58
detective admitted to us was a missed opportunity. So, if the plate is never run, then the car is hidden somehow,
00:40:07
right? Which is why I think people keep going back to water, but Like I don't I don't know. I just like
00:40:12
but we know it's not in the water. So, like if it's an accident, I just have a hard time believing the accident thing.
00:40:18
Like when you think about the route from the bar to her home, it's not a super rural area. An accident on land would
00:40:27
have been noticed like almost all the route she went home. And the bodies of water on her way home have been
00:40:32
searched. So, like someone hid the thing. Okay, so let's just play this out. So, like that's not
00:40:38
an accident to me. You know what [laughter] I mean? Let's just play this out for a second.
00:40:42
How would Rick get rid of his wife's body and car in like kind of a short amount of time?
00:40:49
We're talking about like what? 4 5 hours maybe? >> This is what I'm saying. Show me how it
00:40:53
happened. Like the easy answer is a body of water. That's why everyone keeps talking about water. But which one? I
00:41:01
don't know if anyone's been to Indy recently. Like we don't just have like massive remote bodies of water.
00:41:06
Yeah, we have like plenty of little ones all over, but most of them are open access. There are like houses around
00:41:12
them where people would see. You might even see tire tracks that would stand out. Or there's like guardrails if the
00:41:17
water is close to the road. And like I said, the ones that have places that you could easily drive something into
00:41:23
between Broad Ripple, that area, and her house, those have been searched. Like I
00:41:28
Okay, but again, the focus is on the area between the bar and her house. The person we have saying she was headed
00:41:36
to her house was the guy she was having an affair with, right? >> Yeah. That's that's that's how we know
00:41:43
she's going No in like air quotes. >> Every Everything is based on that. And investigators, they've always said they
00:41:51
deem him credible and [music] not involved in her disappearance. But I mean, since I don't have their records,
00:41:57
I don't know all the ins and outs of why other than the fact that they say he passed a polygraph. And unfortunately,
00:42:02
he died in 2006, so we couldn't talk to him now. But we did get in touch with John's daughter, Kim. And what she told
00:42:11
us was brand new information to us and to investigators when we passed it along to them. So, she was 16 back in 1997.
00:42:22
She didn't live in Indy. She actually lived in Texas with her mother. But by some stroke of cold case luck,
00:42:28
she was visiting Indianapolis to see her dad that 4th of July weekend. She told us that her dad was actually planning to
00:42:35
introduce her to Bonnie at an outdoor concert on the 4th called Uncle Sam Jam. I guess the concert had one of her
00:42:41
favorite bands, the Barenaked Ladies. We actually checked this. The concert did happen that weekend, so she [music] is
00:42:46
spot on. And she said that her dad hadn't introduced her to other women. And so, she took this as him This was
00:42:53
big. Yeah, this was like he's like very smitten with her. She knew. But she says
00:42:57
that Friday, Bonnie never showed up. And she remembered her dad getting really worried and him saying that this wasn't
00:43:04
like [music] her. She said it pretty much ruined the entire day because he seemed so worried about it. Wait. I
00:43:10
thought John gets told that she's missing on Saturday by Anita. That is what John told police, yeah.
00:43:20
But his daughter's saying that she knew something was wrong on Friday. Yes. Now, it's not like he could call her
00:43:27
house or show up to get her, right? Like they're having a secret affair. >> But she had a cell. Like he he could
00:43:33
have called her. So, and this is the thing. Kim told us that she thinks he did try her cell, but he couldn't reach
00:43:41
her, which brings me back to those cell phone records. Yes, it feels even more likely to me that no activity means that
00:43:49
like calls didn't connect, not that no one tried calling. But why didn't he try calling Anita or anything though? Like
00:43:56
there were other people that he spent time with that knew Bonnie that he could have like seen where it what what
00:44:02
happened. Like have you heard from her? Whatever. I thought about this. The innocent explanation, which I do think
00:44:08
is very believable, is that he didn't think that she was like missing missing. I mean, he knew things at home were
00:44:13
tough. She was about to leave her husband. He might have just assumed that things got complicated at [music] home.
00:44:20
But the thing that I can't wrap my head around is in that scenario though, why not tell police that you were supposed
00:44:29
to meet her on Friday and she didn't show up? >> Yeah, that feels like a kind of a big
00:44:32
piece of like the timeline puzzle, right? >> When we told Sergeant Kistner about
00:44:37
this, he said he had never heard anything about Bonnie not showing up to meet John at the concert on Friday, and
00:44:42
he doesn't know why John wouldn't have mentioned that. And like this was one of the moments where he's like, you know,
00:44:46
it's really frustrating to have come onto this case so many years after when it's already too late to get questions
00:44:52
answered from John, who again died in 2006. Now, he said he did go door knocking at
00:44:58
one point and talked to one of John's good friends. And this was recent, like just about a year ago. The guy's name is
00:45:04
Brad Beach, and Brad told him that John took Bonnie's disappearance really hard.
00:45:11
Kistner said that Brad told him that John carried guilt, that he should have followed her home or like he should have
00:45:16
done something to protect her. Like we tried talking to Brad ourselves, but we never got a response. We also reached
00:45:22
out to Kim's two half-brothers, who were John's sons from a previous relationship, but neither of them
00:45:26
responded to our messages. So, we really only had Kim to talk to you about who her dad was. And I mean, she said that
00:45:32
he was, quote, a drinker even before Bonnie went missing. So, she doesn't know like how much Bonnie's
00:45:38
disappearance impacted him in the following months and years because really after that, they didn't talk
00:45:43
often. Was she staying with him though that night? Like can she at least confirm that he came home and was there
00:45:50
after he's like said he waved goodbye to Bonnie? >> No, she actually stayed with a different
00:45:55
family member while she was in town. Which like listen, I'm not saying that John's story isn't true or that he had
00:46:01
anything to do with Bonnie going missing. But what I'm saying is like the double standard is wild. Like you have
00:46:06
John with no one to verify his story, and you have Rick who has his daughter at home saying nothing happened. And
00:46:14
Rick's a liar. John might have called Bonnie on Friday. We know Rick says that he did, but
00:46:20
there's no activity on her phone. But Rick is the liar. Like it doesn't seem fair.
00:46:24
>> Right. Now, we also tried talking to Anita cuz like I have a million questions for that one.
00:46:32
But she ignored us. You know who else she ignored? Bonnie's kids. Josh said that he has tried a bunch of
00:46:40
different times to talk to Anita over the years. Like even reached out to her daughter and said that she pretty much
00:46:45
just hung up on him. And I was talking about this with one of our reporters, and they were like, well, you know, she
00:46:51
made it clear to detectives that she was suspicious of Rick. She's always thought
00:46:54
that the kids were very much on his side. So, like maybe she wouldn't want to talk to them. Okay, I get it, maybe.
00:47:00
But then I found out that Diane tried to reach out to her, too. I mean, everyone
00:47:06
right now is looking for answers and clues. And the same way people are like, oh, Gretchen must know something. I
00:47:11
think everyone wants to talk to Anita thinking there's For sure. >> some hidden clue like locked away in her
00:47:17
brain if they can dissect every word Bonnie said that night or her exact movements, like whatever. So, Diane got
00:47:23
Anita's name from one of the detectives. She called her and she's like, hey, I know everything about Bonnie and Rick
00:47:29
and what was going on. >> like, at this point still pretty hardcore Rick did it.
00:47:34
>> But she's like, I would love to know more about what happened before Bonnie came to the party that night. And this
00:47:40
is what Anita told her. I would never betray her trust. And Diane's like, no, you like you don't
00:47:47
understand. Like I want to know so we can figure out She trusted me, too. We're on the same team. to know if
00:47:53
Rick's involved, and maybe this will help. And her response was, I would never tell anything about Bonnie to
00:48:00
anyone. [music] What? Listen, girl, if I am missing and there is even a chance that I did not walk
00:48:09
away and someone killed me, spill my secrets. Like what are we doing here? >> yap. You don't have to worry.
00:48:15
>> [laughter] >> But like is Bonnie going to know you shared something? And and sharing it
00:48:20
again like with another friend of hers that she was clearly confiding in. Like again, like I said, like she trusted me,
00:48:28
too. We're on the same team. Feels like the safest person. And like also someone
00:48:34
who can identify with what you're feeling like as someone who like has their friend missing. And like they
00:48:40
confided in you. They trusted you. It's really odd. I don't know if Anita still feels this way almost 30 years later.
00:48:47
But again, like I mean, to us, she definitely didn't seem to want to talk about Bonnie even now. And if you want
00:48:53
to say she's scared or whatever, Rick died in 2022. So, if she was keeping quiet because she was afraid of him,
00:49:00
that shouldn't be a problem anymore. And I don't know if it was ever a real problem to begin with.
00:49:08
Cuz I did a thing. I know the thing you did, but I don't actually know what came
00:49:14
of it. Yeah. So, I'm I'm actually like dying to hear. So, okay. So, as some of our listeners may know, I have become
00:49:22
friends with Allison DuBois over the last like year or so. And some people will recognize her name
00:49:27
because of the show Medium. That's based off her life and the actual work that she did to help law enforcement solve
00:49:32
cases. That's what I knew her from. Some people will will her from Real Housewives where she was the guest at an
00:49:37
epic dinner party and predicted the downfall of a marriage. We all love her for different reasons.
00:49:42
Anyway, something in this case just really stood out to me. So, it that moment where I like I read or the
00:49:50
transcript of what Diane told our reporter, where she or I listened to it as well, but she's telling our reporter
00:49:55
that over the years she went to three different mediums and all three said the same thing. It's not who you think.
00:50:03
So, I got this idea. >> [laughter] >> I know a medium. >> Yeah, what if I ask the medium I know? I
00:50:08
know Listen, guys, I know it doesn't prove anything, but like I don't know. What if? It's 30 years on, like what do
00:50:15
we have to lose? Police are only looking at Rick. I'll try anything at this point.
00:50:20
So, I first asked Josh if it would be okay. He gave us his permission. So, I flew Allison out to Indy and I had her
00:50:28
do a reading. And let me preface this by telling you how she works. When she came to Indy, she had no idea
00:50:36
what case we were going to talk about. There is no way she would have known. Even if she would have known. Like
00:50:41
there's like very little This is the most in-depth story that's ever been done on Bonnie's case.
00:50:47
So, when she does a reading, what I give her is someone's picture and their first name.
00:50:54
Not like a picture of them and their family or like I mean just Just them. Just them and their first name. So,
00:51:00
she takes it, she goes into a room, and like we had cameras and stuff. Like she does like this like weird scribble thing
00:51:06
or whatever, and she's able to make a connection, which I asked her before, I'm like, "Hey, if someone's missing,
00:51:13
Like what what do you get if someone's missing?" >> Yeah, and she's like, "I I cannot
00:51:15
connect if they are not dead." So, the fact that she was able to make a connection told me that Bonnie is not
00:51:21
out there alive and well somewhere. Now, she when she started talking about Bonnie, she said that she was very
00:51:26
nurturing. She would have never walked away, and whatever happened to her wasn't an accident, either.
00:51:32
Someone targeted her, and it was someone she did not know. What? >> Girl, I'm telling you, I did not tell
00:51:41
her anything about Bonnie's family or husband or kids or affair. She knew nothing about her life.
00:51:46
But she said that someone had been watching her. And isn't that something that John had mentioned?
00:51:52
>> Mhm. Everyone has always just assumed that someone is Rick. But when she's telling me this, and again, I'm not even
00:51:57
like at this point confirming for her anything. >> listening. >> Yeah, but she's saying that this person
00:52:02
who was watching her targeted her. And she said this was someone who has a record for burglary. She said he lived
00:52:09
nearby Bonnie, but not in a house, which was like very specific. And she thinks her remains are more likely in a wooded
00:52:17
area, somewhere with walking paths. And she kept saying that she kept seeing this scene [music]
00:52:22
where there were birds flying over this wooded area near a housing development that she said was it was built up, but
00:52:29
it still had some homes under construction. Which sent me into like a property record spiral, because I was like,
00:52:37
"Okay, where would have been wooded in '97 with houses being built, but still undeveloped almost 30 years later?" Long
00:52:44
story short, my best guess is [music] the Eagle Creek area. It's like a big city park.
00:52:49
>> There's tons of walking paths. >> Mhm. And that's like on the west side, like out where she would have lived. And
00:52:55
I did this kind of like vague call out on social media a few weeks ago about like asking people to send me housing
00:53:01
developments that would have been under construction around like late 1997, early 1998. And to be honest with you, I
00:53:07
don't even like know my next steps or what searching these areas would entail. I know at a minimum, I think I'll be
00:53:13
doing a lot of hiking when the weather warms up. So, if it really is someone that Bonnie
00:53:18
didn't know, not Rick, not John, how does this person encounter her? Because John waves goodbye to her while she's in
00:53:27
her car headed home. So, I have this like kind of theory, and I kind of talked it out eventually with
00:53:34
Allison after she did her whole reading, because one of the things she said in her reading before she knew anything was
00:53:39
that she was like seeing someone walking in between the homes. Like she's like, "Bonnie keeps showing me someone walking
00:53:46
in between the homes." And I wonder if she did make it home, but not inside. I think about them sitting on the porch
00:53:59
having this talk about their marriage, right? They're trying to like not probably not be around Gretchen and have
00:54:02
her hear everything. >> Not in the house. Right. But if they're sitting outside, she's telling Rick
00:54:07
outside what her plan is. She's going to like go away. She's not going to be home
00:54:10
till late. So, say there was somebody who had seen her, targeted, watched her. I mean, if they
00:54:17
were there earlier, they know that she is going to be alone pulling into the drive very late at night, early morning
00:54:25
hours. If they were following her somewhere else, they see her pull in. There is a world where she gets attacked
00:54:31
in her driveway. And yes, there are houses very close, but if it is swift, if it is quick,
00:54:36
>> And it happens in her car and he leaves with it. He leaves with it. How would
00:54:40
you How would anyone know? >> not like she has to stop. It's like she made it almost all the way to the like
00:54:45
Again, this is just I have nothing to base this on. >> her car stops in the driveway of her own
00:54:49
volition. He's not flagging her down. She doesn't have to pull over. It's where she's supposed to be stopping.
00:54:53
>> Right. And [music] so, as the conversations kept going with Allison, there's like there's so much more that
00:54:59
she told me, but I'm trying to keep it brief. But I did eventually give her Rick's picture, because he died, too.
00:55:04
And like she was like, "This man, no." She's like, "He is not violent." She's like, "He is a perfectionist. He
00:55:10
probably could be verbally like mean to Bonnie, but he has never killed anyone in his whole life."
00:55:15
And listen, I know people are going to think whatever they want to think of this. I I believe in stuff like this.
00:55:21
Some people will not, and that's okay. The thing that I like think about, though,
00:55:28
Allison aside, if that's true, if Rick did nothing, it would be really sad to think that he had to live the
00:55:36
rest of his life painted as a murderer by so many people. [music] He never got remarried. He like he said
00:55:45
he thought about Bonnie all the time. I don't know. And listen, you guys, I'm serious.
00:55:49
There's there is so much more that Allison said about Bonnie. But again, like I realize there are skeptics. I'm
00:55:56
trying to like keep it brief. So, if you're if you want to hear the whole thing, even the stuff that like I gave
00:56:04
her a moment to say like does she have anything to say to her son? I mean, [music] it was fascinating. I'm going to
00:56:08
drop the entire conversation as a fan club extra for anyone who's interested. I'm I I again, I'm just trying to give
00:56:14
you the big takeaways here. But I will leave you with something else that gives me like little tiny chills.
00:56:20
Like I've always seen like the critics are like, "Oh, Ashley, I roll." And like I know it's a little bit
00:56:25
generic, but it was like the last little like moment I had when putting together
00:56:29
this episode. So, I asked our reporter like as I'm finishing up, I'm like, "Hey, go to Josh. See if he has just any
00:56:34
final thoughts that he wants to share when we close out our episode." At the same time, I was about to go like
00:56:39
do my stuff with Allison DuBois. You know, it's different places, different times, whatever. So, I go do my thing
00:56:44
with Allison, and when I ask her to like say does she have anything to say to her
00:56:48
son? And the first line out of Allison's mouth was she said he never stopped looking for
00:56:53
me. And then she called him baby boy. She said a bunch more stuff, whatever. And so, I come back to finish, you know,
00:57:00
the outline for this episode, and the first line I get in my note from the reporter was
00:57:05
Josh has never given up searching for his mom. Oh my god. Chill. Like and it's It is a true statement. Although he and
00:57:13
his wife Crystal moved to Florida in 2023, they worked [music] with dive teams before they left. They were
00:57:18
looking for any sign of Bonnie. They scoured maps for any bodies of water that could be hidden or that could hide
00:57:24
a car. Now, one place he says he hasn't been able to search are quarries north of Indianapolis, but he's not even sure
00:57:30
if there would be access to put a car in the water [music] there. He says knowing
00:57:34
what happened to his mom has been brutal. It has made it harder for him to trust people,
00:57:40
and it's only compounded by the unanswered questions of whether his father, his own father, was involved in
00:57:46
her disappearance. Now, Josh doesn't believe that he was. He thinks someone else out there might hold the answers,
00:57:55
and he hopes that one day they'll come forward to give him and his family the relief of finally laying Bonnie to rest.
00:58:02
And I really do believe that there's hope for that. So, if you out there have any information about Bonnie's
00:58:07
disappearance or her missing vehicle, please contact the current detective, Detective Nicholas Hubbs at Indianapolis
00:58:14
Metropolitan Police Department. That's 317-327-6160, [music] or you can email us [email protected].
00:58:22
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. [music]
00:58:27
And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.