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Hi, crime junkies. Today, I want to dive into a recent case that was so big it crossed oceans and gripped crime junkies
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worldwide. Because we rarely see a loving mother transform into a mass murderer in the blink of an eye, taking
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the lives of the very family members she says she loves. Was it premeditated murder with a loose motive? Was it a
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complete accident? Or was it something in between? A jury has decided. The headlines sure made up their mind. But
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now it is your turn to take in the facts and decide what you think of Aaron Patterson.
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In early July 2023, 48-year-old Aaron Patterson pulled her in-laws aside one Sunday after church. Her and her husband
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Simon had been separated for some time, but they still maintained a halfway decent relationship for their two kids.
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And Aaron made it a point to keep close with Simon's parents. And she was friendly kind of on like an acquaintance
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level with his aunt and uncle, too. I mean, they're literally going to the same church still, so they're going to
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bump into each other. But I think it's more than just like keeping the peace. She seems to genuinely care about them.
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So anyways, on this Sunday, she pulls everyone aside after church and is like, "Hey, I would like to have you guys over
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in a couple of weeks for lunch to discuss something important." And she seemed to imply that it was maybe
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something related to like some health issues. >> So, being supportive, they all agree
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either like then or over the next few weeks. And they agree on a date, July 29th, 2023. It would be Aaron, her
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aranged husband, Simon. Simon's parents, Gail and Dawn, and then Simon's aunt and
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uncle, Heather and Ian. >> And the aunt and uncle are on mom's side or dad's side.
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>> His mom. So, actually Gail and Heather are sisters. >> Okay. >> So, this group is all set for lunch. But
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the night before this lunch is set to happen. Simon actually texts Aaron and Bails. He says it's just too
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uncomfortable for him to come because tensions had kind of been high recently over things like child support,
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finances, and basically he didn't have it in him to pretend like a nice family lunch wouldn't be awkward for him.
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>> Even though like everyone else coming is from his side of the family. >> Yeah. He just didn't want to do it. But
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he said, "You know what? I'll be happy to talk about your health issues or whatever the implications of that
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another time if you want to do it over the phone." Now, that blowoff over text was clearly frustrating to Aaron because
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she replied in the text thread, and I actually have her exact reply. I'll have you read it. She said, "That's really
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disappointing. I've spent many hours this week preparing for lunch tomorrow, which has been exhausting in light of
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the issues I'm facing, and spent a small fortune on beef eye fillet to make beef
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Wellingtons because I wanted it to be a special meal as I may not be able to host a lunch like this again for some
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time. It's important to me that you're all there tomorrow and that I can have the conversations that I need to have. I
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hope you'll change your mind. Your parents and Heather and Ian are coming at 12:30. I hope to see you there.
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>> Status red. >> Okay. >> But Simon does not come to the lunch. She really had spent a long time making
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individual beef Wellington dish. >> I've done like >> Have you really? >> Yeah. And it is incredibly like time and
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work sensit like yeah >> it's a lot of work. >> She put in a lot of work. And so she's
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got these individual ones dished out with sides on mismatched plates. All of which is prayed over before they dig in.
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And after they finished eating, Aaron got to the reason why they're all there. She said that she had cancer. And really
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she wanted their advice on how to tell their kids who were just like elementary and middle school ages at this time.
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She's got two of them. And I don't know how everyone reacted in that moment, but
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I imagine they were surprised because this would have been a first-time diagnosis for Aaron. And as she's like
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telling them about this cancer diagnosis, her son was arriving home. And so, like, not wanting him to hear
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what they were all discussing, everyone kind of gathers together and they encourage her, listen, you should just
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be upfront with the kids, tell them the truth. And then Ian, having been and who
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still was a pastor at the church, he suggests that they all pray together. Pray for Aaron. Pray for the kids. But
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their prayers to protect and save her were misdirected because little did everyone at the table know they should
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have been praying to God to save them. It didn't happen all at once. Gail, Dawn, Heather, and Ian go to their
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respective homes. But sometime over the next 12 hours or so, it hits them all the same. In the
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middle of the night, they are each struck with what feels like the effects of food poisoning. I mean, we're talking
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diarrhea, vomiting, and it is bad. I think people start calling one another. Like, obviously, you see your partner is
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having the same symptoms you are. You want to call the other people there, like, are you sick, too? And Simon
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eventually gets called because his parents are going to the hospital by ambulance. And so he ends up driving his
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aunt and uncle to a nearby hospital himself. By the 24-hour mark, all four guests who have attended the lunch were
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admitted to the hospital and not doing well. Doctors were scrambling to figure out what was going on, but clearly there
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was a connection, right? And it didn't take Dick Van Djk to triangulate that the lunch they were all at together is
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kind of the nexus of their illness. Which did you like how I put a diagnosis murder reference in there? Like where
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are my geriatric crime show fans? >> Well, and I'm sure they realize like one person is suspiciously absent from the
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hospital now. >> The chef herself. Yes. But no one is jumping to sinister conclusions. At
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least not yet. I think they're more concerned that she hasn't come in. Now, Simon's there at the hospital with his
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family, and he's spoken to Aaron on the phone and over text, and she's saying that she's sick, too, but she doesn't
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want to come to the hospital because she says she's having regular bouts of diarrhea, and she didn't think she'd be
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able to like do the full ride without like having an accident, basically. But she does eventually go to the hospital
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to get checked out. Now, she walks in on her own on day two. She is clearly doing
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way better than the others, but they still want to admit her, run some tests because they're pretty sure they've
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narrowed it down to the mushrooms from the beef Wellington being the problem. Everyone's symptoms or whatever test
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they've done have them pretty convinced that they've all eaten a specific type of mushroom called a death cap mushroom,
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which as the name suggests is not something to take lightly. And so they start grilling her about where she got
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the mushrooms because my god, if these were sold at a store, like a lot of people are about to be in trouble really
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quick and they have to get ahead of this. According to the Guardian, she told the hospital staff, quote, "Half
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were fresh from Woolworths and the other half were dried mushrooms bought from an
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Asian ger in the Melbourne suburb of Oakley or Glenn Waverly." End quote. >> Oh, that's like the worst case scenario.
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>> Exactly. And for some reason, this woman doesn't seem nearly as concerned as the
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hospital staff do because when the doctor goes away for a bit to check on other patients, Aaron bails.
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[Music] When the doctor realizes Aaron left the hospital after not being there long, it
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is so concerning to him that he calls the triple0ero emergency line for police. >> Hello. What address do you need at the
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police? Um, so this is Dr. Chris Webster calling from Lean Gaffa Hospital. Um, and I have a concern regarding a patient
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that uh presented here earlier but has left the building um and is potentially exposed to a uh fatal uh toxin from
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mushroom poisoning. Uh, and I've tried several times to uh get hold of her on her mobile phone.
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>> What's her name? >> So, the the last name is Patterson. P A T T E R S O N. First name Aaron. E R I
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N. >> When did she present at hospital? Um at 8:05 today. >> Yeah. Um mushroom poisoning, you said.
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>> Yeah. So there were five people that ate a meal on Saturday and uh two of them
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are in intensive care at Dandong Hospital. Uh two have just been transferred from Lean Gaffa Hospital to
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Dandong Hospital. Uh and Aaron presented this morning with uh symptoms of poisoning. Um and what happened when she
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presented? She just got up and left. Uh no, she the there was time for the nurse
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to begin observations and uh I um I was managing the other critically unwell patient. So I had a brief chat to her
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about where the mushrooms were obtained. Um and uh after that uh uh while I was attending the other patients, the nurse
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uh informed me that she had discharged herself against medical advice. So she left at 10. She was only here for 5
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minutes. >> And just to clarify, you said there were four other people who ate the same meal.
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Is that correct? >> Yeah. So the the meal uh was consumed by five people uh and uh four of those uh
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people are now hospitalized. Is he just worried about her health or is he calling the police like on her?
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Like he thinks she's to blame and she's like on the run. >> So he's really careful with his wording
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at the time. Like it was very much just like these are the facts. You need to find this woman. But dude was super
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clear in the aftermath of things. I mean he was very suspicious of Aaron because
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along with her reluctance to stay at the hospital and get checked out, he's like
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she didn't even look sick. I mean, he is watching these other four people who are
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literally on death's doorstep, and this woman waltzes in looking perfectly fine.
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>> Now, luckily, police didn't have to go to her house and drag her back to the hospital. She returned voluntarily. But
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when she came back, she told the doctor something really concerning. It wasn't just five people who had eaten the beef
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Wellington. She had fed the leftovers to her kids, too. Now, this only sends the
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medical professionals into more of a panic. They're like, "Well, you need to go home and get those kids here like
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now." But she doesn't want to. She's like, "Oh, no, no, no. They're fine. They're not sick at all. I like scraped
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out the mushrooms before I gave them the food." Like, and she's like, "I feel like if I cuz they weren't at home. They
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were at school. I feel like if I go scoop them up out of school and bring them to the hospital, they're going to
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be really scared." >> Okay, so scare them. Like, how are we even having this conversation?
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>> It is literally what the doctor says. Actually, I think the doctor is more brash. He's like, "They can be scared
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and alive or dead. Like, what are we doing here with them?" >> Long story short, the kids do come to
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the hospital. They get checked out. She gets checked out and they're all completely fine.
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>> Like fine like there's nothing in their system. >> Blood tests show no metabolic acidosis.
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And that is what they were looking for in the others who are sick like Gail, Don, Heather, and Ian, who all, by the
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way, are in progressively worse shape. >> So, what's Aaron's story at this point?
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Like, is she trying to say it wasn't the Wellingtons or what? >> No, it was fully the Wellington's. All
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right. Like, they actually go and get the leftovers from her trash, test the mushrooms, and they are now 100% sure
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those were death cap mushrooms. But your question is a pointed one. What is her story?
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>> Yeah. >> Because over the coming week, Gail and Don and Heather each pass away from
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altered liver function and multiple organ failure. Only Ian survives after weeks in the ICU and some very close
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calls. But the thing is, try as they might, for the life of them, they can't seem to find that Asian food store in
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Melbourne where she said she bought dried mushrooms from. And so much of her story just isn't making sense to them.
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So, was this murder or was this a tragic accident? And in the wake of this tragedy, it depends on who you ask.
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>> Aaron, you ask Aaron. Well, and they do. Even before Dawn had passed away, they
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were pulling her in to talk to police. And it was actually in an interview with them that she learned of Gail and
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Heather's passing. And she told police she had no idea what was going on, but she has been trying to be as helpful as
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possible, providing staff with as much information as possible to get to the bottom of this.
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>> You mean like maybe the name of the Asian grocery store that no one can find? Uh, ideally that would be nice,
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but no, she doesn't remember. So, police are like, "Listen, let's just start at the beginning. Why did you invite them
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all over for this lunch that ended up killing them?" And let me just tell you what she said, like verbatim.
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She said, quote, "I loved them a lot. They've always been really good to me, and they always said to me they'd
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support me with love and emotional support, even though Simon and I were separated. And I really appreciated that
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because both my parents are gone." end quote. >> And to tell them about her cancer.
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>> What cancer? She doesn't have cancer. >> I'm sorry. What? >> Yeah. Now, I don't know if they even
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knew about the ruse that she used to get everyone over there in that moment because it's a little unclear to me if
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Gail, Heather, or Dawn, or even Ian were in a position to tell police about that
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before they got like seriously ill. But Ian definitely told them about it after he recovered and no record of cancer. So
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let's call that question one lie one. Question two, do you own a dehydrator and have you ever foraged for mushrooms
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in the past? Because no way were these death cap mushrooms bought from a store? And she says, "Nope, but you know, you
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might find a manual for a dehydrator at my house somewhere. You might. I don't know." Aaron
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>> lied too. But she's trying to get ahead of them, I think, because they had or
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eventually will search her home and she knew that they were going to be looking at her. Okay. So, like why does she have
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a dehydrator? >> Had >> Oh, >> because police end up learning later that while everyone was in the hospital,
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she went and disposed of the dehydrator. >> And she did something else really damning to cover her tracks.
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[Music] Let me just back up and break down for you the case that the prosecution ends
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up making against Aaron because what she did, how she tried to lie about it and then cover her own tracks. The way she
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was caught lying on the stand, it is bonkers. And I think it's easier if I just kind of fast forward and tell you
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everything they find over the course of their investigation. So, like I said, no
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cancer, not then, not ever. They realized that the health ruse had started even before she invited everyone
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to lunch. So, for a while, she had been telling people about a lump in her elbow
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and that she was maybe going to be going to the hospital, having a biopsy or some
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tests or whatever. This was shortly before even the lunch invite. >> Oh. >> So, there was kind of a long game there.
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>> She was like planting the seeds. >> Yeah. Except there was no lump in her elbow. There was no biopsy. There were
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no scans. Nada. all arused to get people to her house for lunch. I told you she got rid of the dehydrator. Now, it's not
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like she could say, "Oh, you know, it was so old. I tossed it whenever ago." Totally unrelated to this. That thing
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was purchased on April 28th, 2023. >> Oh, so brand new. >> Yeah. And they find CCTV footage of her
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going to a dump to get rid of this thing on August 2nd, 2023. >> Oh, so like when she's in hot water.
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Yes. And when it's tested, they find traces of death cap mushrooms. So, we are now 100% sure that she didn't buy
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dried mushrooms from anyone. She dried them. >> Which also means then she picked them.
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>> Correct. Line number three. She absolutely did forge for mushrooms. And we know this because of digital data
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that they collected from her devices >> like tracking. >> Yes. So they did a search of Aaron's
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home pretty early on and they collected phones, computers, tablets, everything. According to an article by the
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Australian Broadcast Company, it looks like starting in May 2022, so the year before all this, all of a sudden, Aaron
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started like taking a keen interest in mushroom foraging based on her search history. So, it's not like they have
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proof then that she's like out there picking shrooms, but she started visiting a site called I Naturalist
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where quote users share observations from nature to a community map. End quote. Like, ooh, saw this here.
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>> Saw this rare or weird thing over here. And by the way, deathcat mushrooms aren't something that is just around
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everywhere like in this area of Australia. They're actually like pretty rare, specifically in this area. Now, I
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haven't seen anyone report like that she was on the site logging anything. She seems, from what I can tell, just to be
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an observer starting at least in May 2022. Now, fast forward nearly a year later. On April 18th, 2023, a retired
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pharmacist logs the location of death cap mushrooms in a town called Lock. And then on May 21st, 2023 in a
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different town called Altrim, someone else logs the location where they saw death cap mushrooms. Now, literally
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within like the first day of when one of those like pops up, Aaron had gone to the site and she spent about an hour on
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it. So, it is very likely that she saw it. And then according to the BBC, quote, "Her mobile phone location data
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appeared to show her traveling to both areas and purchasing the infamous food dehydrator on her way home from one of
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those trips." End quote. But here is the clincher and the thing that I was saying
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I think is so damning. They don't even have all of her mobile phone data to work with.
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>> What do you mean? So, they end up finding out that this woman had three different phones, two Samsung phones and
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a Nokia. Now, they only really talk in detail about the two Samsung phones, which they end up referring to as like
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phone A and phone B. Phone A is the one that they know she used for years before
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all of this, right? >> Her phone, >> right? This is the phone that they can also see in the CCTV footage when she
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goes to the hospital initially. So, they know she's still using it around the time of all of this. But when they end
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up searching her home, when they end up collecting her devices, she gives them phone B. What happened to phone A? Who
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the heck knows? But they can see that some shady stuff happened with the phones while detectives were in her
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house doing the search on August 5th. Phone B had been factory reset and the SIM card in phone A was removed and then
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put into a Nokia phone. >> Is she not in the house during the search? >> Oh, no, she is. This is This is what's
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so wild. She is there with them and normally if they're like searching your property, right? Like they're obviously
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suspicious of her by this point. They like make you stay by them. Well, she told one of the detectives that she
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needed some privacy to call her lawyer. So, they let her go into a room by herself for a moment. And this, they
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believe, according to the data logs, is when some of this stuff starts happening.
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>> I mean, how do you even explain that away? >> I like everything they've got against
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her, I think, is going to be hard. >> Yeah. >> And one of the other things that they
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have against her are some chat logs with a group that she has on Facebook, like the small group of friends, because
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before she killed her family, guess what this woman was a part of online? I truly
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cannot even begin to wonder. >> Uh true crime Facebook community. Oh my gosh, please don't be crime junky.
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>> It's not It's not I mean again, don't give us a bad name, Aaron, but like it's
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uh they don't ever name it as far as I can tell, but I actually had our team check not crime junkie as far as I know.
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>> Anyways, she's it's not like she just joined this group. She was part of this
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group a while back. And really what ended up happening is kind of like so many of our crime junkies. She ends up
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bonding with kind of a group of people who move their chat outside of the group and it it really isn't even about true
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crime, right? It's not like they're it's damning and they're talking about ways to kill people or anything like that.
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>> Sounds like their own little community. >> Yeah. Their friend group. They're talking about life. They're talking
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about what they're making for dinner and their kids and like whatever. You know,
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>> loaded loaded conversation here. And what's so interesting is that police can
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see in all these communications that to this group, Aaron shares a very different version of her relationship
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with her in-laws than the one that she had been telling police, right? Like, oh, I love them. They're there for me.
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Like, they're wonderful. >> This is a different story. Because you see, even though things had been
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amicable between Simon and Aaron since they separated years before, there was a pretty drastic shift within the last
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year. And the prosecution alleges that it was all really set in motion when the couple each filed their taxes in 2022
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because on those forms, Simon's accountant listed him as separated, which they were, but that was never how
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they had filed all like all the years before. And apparently filing this way had some major like financial
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implications for Aaron. She was the one with the money in the relationship after
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getting a big inheritance from her grandmother and then her mother when they each passed away. And this check of
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a box had like like I said big implications for her. And it turned into this big thing because while they had
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kind of like figured out how to live their life and share responsibility or whatever, now Aaron was like, "Okay,
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that's out the window. I'm filing for child support. we're going to figure out how to split up the kids like medical
00:23:01
expenses, school stuff, everything. And so things were just like tense, right? And by July where before they would at
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least like text, have some chatty banter, like how are you doing, whatever, like all signs of a friendship
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were in the past. And even though Simon would later tell the court that from his
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perspective, she really did seem to love his parents, she was telling her friends
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in this group in her online group a different thing. She had apparently tried to go to them to kind of ask them
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to like help mediate between her and Simon. Basically like talk some sense into your son so we can figure this out.
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But they didn't want to help. They're like, "We are staying out of it. You guys need to work this out between the
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two of you." And so the text that they start pulling in this like group message or whatever over time does not look
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favorable for Aaron. And I can even have you read some of them. >> Okay. So these are some of the texts.
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>> Yeah. >> This family, I swear to God, nobody bloody listens to me. At least I
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know they're a lost cause. So anyway, I sent a group message to all of them last night saying how Simon's
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behavior is unconscionable. She I think that's what she's trying to say. It's kind of spelled weird and asking me to
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withdraw the child support claim is wrong and disadvantages me and his children and how dare he, etc.
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I'm sick of this. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to
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do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable and not wanting to get
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involved in their son's personal matters are overriding that. So, I don't need anything from any of these
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people. His mom was horrified I had claimed child support. Why isn't she horrified her son is such a deadbeat and
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that I had no choice but to claim. >> Pointed. >> Yeah. Yeah. And a completely different
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vibe than what like she was telling everybody like >> did Simon and his family like were they
00:25:00
feeling any of this animosity or was it still like we are all amicable like you were saying?
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>> Again I mean I think things were tense with Simon hence why he didn't want to
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go to the lunch and bailed last minute. Thank god. But no, I mean, he had no idea that she felt this way about his
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parents. >> That's kind of the the piece that's missing for me. Like, she hates Simon
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over the separation and the money stuff. Hates his parents because she thinks they should be stepping in or telling
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their son what to do or just didn't raise him, right? Whatever. Like, where did the aunt and uncle come into this?
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Like, they seem >> completely separated from this. This is the part that makes no sense to me and
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the part that no one can seem to make sense of because they were like acquaintances at best per what Ian said
00:25:42
on the stand. And there's never anything suggesting that she went to them for any
00:25:46
kind of support or like asking them to step in. Like they said this lunch invite felt kind of out of the blue to
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them. So she's just so angry she wanted to take out this entire family. >> I Yes. I don't know. And I mean, you
00:26:01
teed this up to be like, "Was this murder question mark, but I feel like the answer is pretty
00:26:08
obvious." And it also feels super premeditated. I mean, she was foraging and drying mushrooms. I know. And like
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it even feels like she was trying to lay the groundwork for a defense on some things like long before like it even
00:26:22
happened because like police also found one message in like that same friend group or whatever where she basically
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was saying that she had been hiding powdered mushrooms in everything um to like sneak them to her kids cuz they
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didn't like them. So she was like making them drying them making them powder mixing them up and like putting them in
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brownies or whatever. And according to the Guardian, this friend group also said that she sent pictures of a
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dehydrator in her kitchen that was apparently exclusively used for mushrooms. And by the way, they also
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find that picture. So, she got ahead of that. But for as planned as this seems with the phones and the like, "Oh, look.
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I'm doing something with mushrooms that is totally not nefarious." This whole thing was also really sloppy because
00:27:06
they also find pictures on a tablet of hers where there are mushrooms on a scale that an expert later identifies as
00:27:14
like he believes they're deathcap mushrooms. So from start to finish, this woman left a trail of circumstantial
00:27:21
evidence pointing right at her all the way back to the fact that she was not sick at all.
00:27:27
>> Right. I was thinking about that like did they not like they were all at this
00:27:31
lunch at her house together. Did they not notice that she just wasn't eating? >> No, she was eating lunch. She Cuz like
00:27:38
you said, remember >> they were individual ones? >> Yes. >> She was She made a special non-poison
00:27:42
one for herself. >> Yeah. And Ian, our lone survivor, he says that like looking back, he
00:27:48
remembers that she didn't want help like serving everything up. And while everyone that was there ate off of gray
00:27:56
plates, hers was orange. I know this is like a fool's errand, but I'm trying to like put myself in her shoes to
00:28:03
understand how she would even think that there's a remote possibility that she'd
00:28:09
get away with this. Like, I mean, I guess I assume she's counting on that no one would live to tell the tale, so who
00:28:17
cares if she faked cancer, the weird plate thing? Like take away those two pieces that we know because Ian
00:28:25
survived. There's still like an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that is piling up against her,
00:28:33
including, by the way, speaking of her not being sick, I forgot to mention this. Remember how she is telling
00:28:38
everyone she has like bad diarrhea? >> Yeah. She couldn't like drive because of it.
00:28:42
>> Which, by the way, I never thought I would say diarrhea so much in a single episode. So, yeah. So, she's like, "This
00:28:47
is why I'm not going to go to the hospital, get checked out, whatever." Well, apparently that first day her son
00:28:51
had some kind of flying lesson that was scheduled and she drove him like 90 minutes away for this thing. And that
00:28:57
whole time she made one stop at a rest stop or gas station or something. There is CCTV footage of her going inside,
00:29:05
going to the bathroom, but for 9 seconds and then leaving. Now, that's not a smoking gun of anything. It's again
00:29:15
circumstantial evidence, but of yet another lie. But like everything in this is circumstantial. And the thing is
00:29:23
Aaron says that she can explain all of it and she tries to because after she is charged with murder, the trial becomes
00:29:31
one of the biggest spectacles in Australia. Like this year while we in the US had Karen Reed round two, they
00:29:38
were all obsessed with Aaron Patterson's trial. So, with the whole world watching, Aaron Patterson takes the
00:29:44
stand for 8 days in her own defense. All right, where to begin? I'm just going to kind of go down the punch list.
00:29:54
>> Okay, >> so she says that she made individual Wellingtons, not one big one, because
00:30:01
when she went to the store, they just didn't have like the big cut that she needed. Now, why not go to the butcher
00:30:06
and get the thing that you need so you don't have to change the whole recipe? And she's like, "I don't know, man. It
00:30:11
was easier this way." Okay, fine. And she says, "Yes, the plates were different, but she didn't have a
00:30:17
complete set of matching plates, which is actually backed up by other people who testified, too." Okay, but you
00:30:26
didn't eat it. Like, how did you not get sick? And here is where we got a brand new confession of sorts for the very
00:30:35
first time. She said that she has had body image issues since she was very young. And for much of her life, she
00:30:43
would binge eat and then purge. And she said on that day, she ate her lunch. She
00:30:49
said she didn't eat the whole Wellington, like a quarter or a half of it or whatever. But then she ate almost
00:30:54
an entire cake that one of the guests brought. And then feeling ill from overeating, she went to the bathroom and
00:31:02
threw up. And that's probably why she didn't get sick. Now, they ask her on the stand like, "Did you bark for the
00:31:08
beef Wellington up?" Like, that's the thing. And she's like, "Yeah, probably, maybe. I don't know. There's no way to
00:31:12
be sure." But she still does maintain that she was mildly sick. Now, when they confront her with the video showing this
00:31:18
long drive she makes, but where she doesn't even go to the bathroom long enough to wash her hands, much less
00:31:23
anything else, she says that she went in there to throw away tissues because she
00:31:29
actually like couldn't hold it earlier. Had to stop on the side of the road or something to relieve herself. And so she
00:31:35
had like tissues and a dog bag or something that she cleaned herself up with and like threw it away. That's why
00:31:40
she was in there so like for such a short time. But her son who is in the car ride with her cannot verify this.
00:31:48
Okay. What about the whole reason for this lunch to begin with? Like let's like what's the explanation for the fake
00:31:55
cancer? You can't really explain that conversation away. >> She tried. So, and this like this is
00:32:02
where like there ends up being this huge Perry Mason gotcha moment in court. I know my like diagnosis murder Perry
00:32:09
Mason. I'm like killing it today. >> Where's murder? She wrote. >> So, in court they're asking her about
00:32:15
this and she's like, "No, I didn't have cancer, but this goes back to her body image issues." She said that she wanted
00:32:20
to have gastric bypass surgery, but she was too embarrassed to tell people that,
00:32:24
but she knew that she was going to need the family's like help and support with the kids posttop. So she made up the
00:32:30
whole cancer story because she's like basically like I'm going to have surgery either way. I was just telling this
00:32:34
other thing. So because I didn't want to tell them what I was really having like
00:32:38
done. So on the stand they're like okay gastric bypass surgery. Cool. Was it booked? Yes. Okay. Where? So she tells
00:32:46
them and she gets caught on the stand lying because that place didn't even offer gastric bypass surgery. What? I
00:32:57
know. I don't like what are you thinking? >> Yeah. Oh my god. Okay, that doesn't
00:33:04
explain anything. That's wild. But there's there's more here. Like disposing of evidence like the phones,
00:33:10
the dehydrator. >> Yeah. Basically, she says at certain points when she realized that people
00:33:16
were suspicious of her or like trying to blame her, she panicked and just did things that are dumb and make her look
00:33:22
guilty. like the whole dehydrator thing. She says she tossed that because her husband was accusing her in the hospital
00:33:29
of killing his parents, which he says is untrue. He's like, I never accused her of that, like early days. And then the
00:33:36
phone stuff, I mean, she has like a number of weird reasons that were all kind of different in the time leading up
00:33:42
to trial, but like all in all, it was it boiled down to basically her like panicking when she knew police were
00:33:50
looking seriously at her. Now, as for where the mushrooms came from, whereas before she always told police she never
00:33:57
foraged mushrooms and she bought those dried mushrooms from an Asian ger, now she admits that she did get into
00:34:05
foraging during lockdown and she's always loved eating mushrooms. And she said her kids had even seen her forage
00:34:11
mushrooms before. By the way, they deny this. And she adds that while she does forage, she definitely didn't go
00:34:19
foraging in that one town where the death caps were spotted after they were posted online. Even though
00:34:25
>> I was say even though she went there right after it was posted, >> her phone location suggests she was in
00:34:30
that area. >> Like knowing what she's accused of, I feel like I shouldn't be shocked that she's
00:34:37
bringing the kids into this so much. But I still kind of am like she's really relying on them a lot for like
00:34:44
>> they saw me here. They can verify that we did this. Like >> dragging them into this feels like very
00:34:51
low in a way that is even shocking for them. >> I know. And like >> I mean really how lucky for them that
00:34:58
they still have their father. But like I can't imagine what this does to a person, especially like a a minor, a
00:35:05
kid, trying to reconcile that your mom would do something like this. And the fact that she would like
00:35:11
toss you out there as a part of a lie, expecting you to >> what? Back her up while you also know
00:35:16
that she planned for your dad to be at that lunch. >> Yeah. >> Like I don't know what their
00:35:20
relationship with their mom was like before all this, but I haven't heard any wild stories. I mean, part of what I
00:35:26
think captivated a nation and a and the world was you don't often see someone who is described as a loving mother turn
00:35:33
into a mass murderer. >> Like, do you then have to go back and rewrite your whole history with someone
00:35:38
like that? >> I say for me it feels like you'd have to like question so many of your
00:35:41
interactions. >> Was it real? Was it always an act? or like just recently >> and like one of the things that came out
00:35:48
in court that I actually found really interesting was around Aaron's faith or lack thereof. So early on in her life
00:35:56
she had been an atheist and she said that she tried convincing Simon who was a Christian to be atheist too. But in
00:36:02
2005 when they were dating he took her to of all places Ian's church. Ian, the only survivor Ian
00:36:11
>> remember he is a pastor, like was still is, but he took her to a service and she
00:36:16
said that she at this service had a spiritual experience and became a Christian herself then and there. But
00:36:22
the prosecution put forward some messages or like actually more like emojis she sent that made it appear that
00:36:29
she mocked the family's religious beliefs to other people. and her friend group reported that she told them she
00:36:36
was still an atheist and she thought Simon's religious background was difficult. But on the stand, she remains
00:36:43
adamant that she is a Christian. >> Aaron, thou shalt not lie. It's in like the top 10.
00:36:50
>> And it was clear to the jury that's what she had done over and over again. Lie,
00:36:55
lie, lie to police, to her family, right there to the jurors. And after 9 weeks of trial and 6 days of deliberation, on
00:37:04
July 7th, 2025, a jury in the Supreme Court of Victoria convicted her of three counts of murder and one count of
00:37:13
attempted murder. So what's going to happen next? She basically is going to have 28 days from
00:37:19
the time of sentencing to appeal her conviction, her sentence, both. And as of this recording, that sentencing
00:37:26
hasn't happened yet. But usually they say they do that within about a month. So like when this episode comes out
00:37:32
right now. >> Right now. Right. So if you follow us on Instagram, CrimeJunkie Podcast, I'll be
00:37:36
posting an update to let you know when that happens, which will put a clock on the appeal.
00:37:42
>> And I would be shocked if she didn't appeal. >> Same. Listen, I am I think I'm still
00:37:47
totally consumed with trying to understand why, especially why for Ian and Heather, this aunt and uncle that
00:37:56
you were barely close with, one of whom was a pastor, your pastor. >> I mean, it's part of the reason why I
00:38:04
found like the whole talk of religion so interesting, even though it wasn't a core part of the trial. like it's not
00:38:09
real evidence, but I wonder if there's something there. Like I I just can't put my finger on it. And in court, by the
00:38:17
way, she said like, "Oh, yes. I said these things, but I was frustrated." And you're like pulling out like the worst
00:38:23
moments. Like right Yeah. You don't want God like God forbid I'm ever on trial. Like I don't want anyone going through
00:38:29
my text messages. But I don't know. Like is that real? like is is this I think we
00:38:34
have to point to them so much or why people do is because like without those nothing makes sense.
00:38:39
>> It like has to you have to have them to like complete painting the the picture,
00:38:42
right? >> Yeah. But I I'm not sure you can make sense of someone who was willing to do
00:38:46
what Aaron did to her kids, to Simon and to her in-laws. And listen, if she was honest about her beliefs, maybe she'll
00:38:55
have a come to Jesus and her family, if no one else, will get whatever answers they need to to move forward. You can
00:39:02
find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkypodcast.com.
00:39:07
>> And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkypodcast. >> We'll be back next week with a brand new
00:39:12
episode. [Applause] [Music]