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Hi Crime Junkies. The story I have for you today is one that I know you've heard of. It was a case that made every
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news station nationally at some point. And post Karen Read, we were all gearing up for this trial to dominate public
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attention all over again. But, less than 2 weeks ago, there was a shocking turn of events. Just a month
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and a half out from trial, the defendant accepted a plea deal, agreeing to plead
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guilty in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table. It is a move that has the public, and
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more importantly, the families of the victims split. Some people are happy he's accepting responsibility without
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dragging everyone through a spectacle at the expense of taxpayers. But others are frustrated because the
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trial was their chance at possibly getting an answer to the one question that has mystified a nation.
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Why did Bryan Kohberger kill four students at the University of Idaho? It's around 4:00 a.m. on November 13th,
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2022, when Dylan Mortensen wakes up to some noises in her off-campus home at 1122 King Road.
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Now, she'd been out drinking the night before, so she's still a bit buzzed, and her understanding of what's going on is
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a little hazy. But it sounds like maybe a different roommate who stays in the room on the floor above her is like uh
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playing with her dog or something. But as she gets her bearings a little bit, she thinks she hears that roommate,
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Kaylee Goncalves, say, "There's someone here." So, Dylan gets out of bed, cracks her
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door to peek out, but she doesn't see anything. And she tries to shake it off, close her door, go back to bed, probably
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telling herself like the bumps in the night are nothing. But she still hears noises.
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And then she hears crying. Except it's not coming from Kaylee's room upstairs, it sounds like it's coming from a room
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on her floor, her other roommate's, Xana Kernodle's. And then she hears what sounds like a voice.
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A man's voice saying, "It's okay. I'm going to help you." Now, she tries looking out her door another time, only
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to see the same empty, dark hallway. But she can't ignore whatever sixth sense is
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tugging her to her door to check just one more time. And I can almost imagine it feeling like
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this amorphous energy getting closer and closer as she opens her door once more,
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until all of a sudden, that thing she was sensing has a form. Right in front of her is a man dressed
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in all black with a mask covering his mouth and nose. I mean, the only thing visible are his eyes beneath bushy
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eyebrows. And they're looking directly at her. Now, she knows this guy has seen her,
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but he doesn't say a word, and he doesn't move toward her. He just walks toward the sliding glass door that leads
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out the home's back patio. And I have no idea what could have been going through
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Dylan's mind in that moment, what story she was trying to tell herself. The way she probably tried to discredit her own
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eyes and ears. She was probably confused, probably afraid, drunk on top of it all, and human, telling herself
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the things we all do. Bad things happen to other people, not me. Nevertheless, in the instant that this guy moves past
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her, she locks herself inside her room and immediately starts trying to call her roommates. Which there were what,
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like five of them total living in the house then? Well, technically, four girls who lived there. Dylan, Xana, then
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Bethany Funk, and Madison Mogen, or Maddie as they called her. But it wasn't uncommon for other people
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to be there or like staying the night, like Xana's boyfriend Ethan Chapin, and Kaylee, who is always referred to as a
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roommate because she was shortly before this, but she had actually just moved out because she was graduating early.
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She was only there visiting her best friend Maddie that weekend. But they hadn't filled her room yet, so there
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still is a Kaylee's room. >> I guess I didn't realize that. I know. So, I don't think Dylan knew exactly who
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was even in the house that morning. So, she starts calling her roommates one by one, and I'm not sure why, but actually
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her roommate Bethany had called Dylan a few minutes earlier. Maybe she heard something in the house, too, and wanted
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to check in with Dylan. But Dylan didn't answer that one. She's like calling around one by one. The phone's ringing
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and ringing and ringing. None of the roommates are answering. So, finally Dylan does call Bethany back. You see,
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they both come home separately at around 1:00 a.m. Bethany picks up. She is at home, too. And I don't know what they
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talk about for the 41 seconds that call is logged. But when it ends, Dylan starts shooting off texts to Bethany,
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starting at 4:22 a.m. >> And was Bethany's room on her same floor or a different one? So, this house has
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three floors. So, the front door to the home is technically in the basement. That's where Bethany's room is. And then
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on the second level, you have Xana and Dylan's rooms. And then on the third were Maddie and Kaylee. Okay, I think I
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have it. >> Yeah, so she is firing off text after text to Bethany, and she's telling her
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what she saw, what she heard, that no one else is answering. She's super confused, really freaked out. And she
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probably has at least some wave of relief, the fact that like she's getting a hold of Bethany. Bethany is at least
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responding. And Bethany says, "Come to my room." This is over text. "Run." Now, Dylan doesn't even know if that guy
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is still there or if he's gone, but she bolts to the basement, and the pair lock
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themselves in Bethany's room, and they keep trying other roommates unsuccessfully until they eventually
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both fall asleep. And I know so many people had just a field day with this early on. Like they couldn't wrap their
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heads around why neither of these girls would just call the police. I know. And listen, I'll admit early on, I had a
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hard time wrapping my brain around it, too. But empathy, I think, is something you have to train into yourself, work at
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constantly. So, before you go writing the comment or like posting the thing, you got to like sit back, make sure you
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take in the facts, put yourself in someone else's shoes, too, man, because like these are technically adults, right?
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Like in terms of being able to vote or get drafted for war. But Bethany and Dylan were both 21. And I
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thought I was invincible then. Like it was literally not in my realm of possible thinking that I would ever, in
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a million bazillion years, be at the center of what would become one of the biggest true crime cases in the nation,
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probably for a generation. Strange man in my house or not, you think of every other possible scenario under the sun
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before the worst one. And I mean, it was a Saturday night in college. The university had just had this big
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football game. Maybe someone could have had a guest over. Well, and on top of that, they're young women. As women,
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we're constantly being told like we're overreacting. Don't make such a big deal about things.
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>> Yeah, and your other roommate is okay. Whoever this was, he walked right past
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you, didn't even flinch. So, maybe everyone else is just sleeping. After all, it's almost 4:30 in the morning
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now. When the pair wakes up the next morning, they start like getting on their phones.
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Dylan is on social media a bit, but there is still enough fear lingering that even in the daylight, they don't
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want to just go roaming the house alone. I know Dylan texts her dad more than once that morning. Bethany calls her
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parents more than once. And I'm not exactly sure why they called or if their parents picked up. I'm thinking maybe
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they called to tell them that they thought something was off about the night before. But eventually, Dylan
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calls her friend Emily, telling her that they think something weird happened last
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night, and she asked her to come over and help, and bring her boyfriend. They want to figure out why the housemates
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aren't responding. So, Emily says, "Yeah, fine. I'll come over." She brings her boyfriend Hunter and a roommate
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Josie, too. But honestly, they're not taking it too seriously because apparently, Dylan was one to scare
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easily, and she'd been freaked out before in the house, which when I talk about sitting back and
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waiting for the facts, >> Yeah, I never knew that piece. Same. So, she's been freaked out before, and
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before everything was fine. This time was going to be different, though. Dylan and Bethany are on the bottom
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floor waiting for them when their friends arrive. And they all decide that Hunter is going to lead the way. He's
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already in Xana's room by the time Emily's reaching the second floor. And Emily just sees Hunter like turn around,
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come toward her, and he's like pushing her out of the house, and he's like, "Call 911. Tell them there is an
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unconscious person." And I give him a ton of credit because even while trying to process what it was he just walked
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into, which was far more than just an unconscious person, he was still thinking about how to protect everyone
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else from what he just saw. So, it is 11:55 a.m. when Dylan calls 911. Here are parts of that call.
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911, location of your emergency? Hi, something is happening Something is happening in our house. We
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don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 1122 WHAT IS THE REST OF THE ADDRESS?
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OH, King's Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. Can you repeat the address to make sure
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that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys. We're um We live at the white, so we're next to
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them. And tell me exactly what's going on. Um one of our One of the roommates is
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passed out, and she was drunk last night, and she's not waking up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their
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house last night. Yeah, he was Hi, this is the And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep
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the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened, pretty much? What is going on currently?
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Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4:00 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's on
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right now if someone is passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come
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on, you got to go check. Hello? Hello? Okay, I need someone to stop passing the phone around because I've
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talked to four different people. Sorry, they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? She won't
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Hello? Is she breathing? No. Okay. The Moscow Police Department arrives on the scene pretty quickly and already
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there's a crowd gathering outside the house. There's Dylan, Bethany, their friends who they called, and some more
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students who know the crew. They're all standing by waiting to hear that everything's okay. But as we know,
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police don't find an unconscious woman. What they see, the scene that Hunter saw,
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is very bloody. According to a new book that we got access to, The Idaho Four by
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James Patterson and Vicki Ward, which had a ton of information about this case, Xana and Ethan are found together
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in her room on the second floor. It looks like Xana was attacked right at the door of her room. Like she is laying
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on the ground at her door. Maybe she'd been like backing up into the room when she was attacked, I don't know, but she
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had stab wounds from some kind of what they call an edged weapon, and she clearly tried to protect herself from
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the attacker's weapon because her fingers are nearly severed. The Idaho Four book says that Ethan is laying on
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the bed behind her, and he's been stabbed, too. But there have been rumors that I have
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seen that his legs were also like the word that keeps getting used is carved, and this isn't stated in the
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affidavit that I have seen, but there is a portion of that document where they're talking about finding Ethan, and
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it's been redacted, and it is speculated that is where that detail is discussed or where this comes from. But again, no
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one has gone on record stating that as fact. Right. And were both of them clothed? I think so. Nothing in any of
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the records says anything about them being undressed or anything like that. >> Okay. Now, on the third floor of the
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house, police check Kaylee's room, but only her dog is in there. He's unharmed. But it's in Maddie's room where they
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find the two best friends laying together sharing a bed, which probably wasn't uncommon since they'd been
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inseparable since childhood. Both have been stabbed. And in an interview with ABC News, Kaylee's mother, Kristi, says
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that Kaylee was found like sitting up and had defensive wounds. And on the family's Facebook page, they also say
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that she had been beaten in the face and head, so she likely fought for her life.
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So, then did he attack Maddie first? Like while they were still sleeping? I don't know that for sure. Like we only
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know about Kaylee's wounds because her family has talked about them publicly. No one has ever spoken about Maddie's
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wounds in detail, so she might very well have them, too. Maybe not. I can't say one way or another. All I know is that
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according to a press release from the Moscow police, {quote} some, but not all of them have defensive wounds.
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And they did say that they believe that they were all asleep when the killer entered the home. And the two of them in
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this room were both clothed, too. There's nothing in any of the documents about them being undressed.
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>> Okay, same as before. >> Yeah, and it doesn't seem like the killer spent any time with them. So,
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right away, this is feeling more like a blitz attack more than anything else. No
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one is bound, no one has been sexually assaulted, nothing appears to have been staged or taken,
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but something was left behind by the killer, seemingly unintentionally. A tan leather knife sheath.
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And finding that knife sheath marked the beginning of the end for the killer. A 7-in blade was never found inside the
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house or outside, either, when they searched the perimeter of the home and the trash out on the street. But police
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and the pathologist would later become confident that some, if not all of the victims' wounds, were caused by, if not
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that specific knife, one a lot like it. And are these types of knives common? I mean, ish. Like they're used by the
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military, they're used by hunters, knife enthusiasts, like that sort of thing. >> They're common among people who use
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knives. >> Yeah, but definitely not something that like any of these kids in this house
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were known to have, so they do think that the killer brought this with him, but then actually took the knife itself
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back with him. Now, investigators sent a good amount of evidence from the house off to the lab, including fingernail
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clippings, hair, but the major things they note is that there was a shoe print outside of
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Dylan's door that likely came from a Vans style shoe. And they found this It was invisible to the naked eye, I think,
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cuz they used this dye that reacts to body fluid or blood to get this print. So, it wasn't like a ton of of blood or
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fluid or whatever, but this print is right in alignment with where Dylan said that she saw the masked man, so they
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feel like this is his. They also find a blood spot on the handrail between the first and second floor, and then they
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find a black glove outside the home. Now, police know that there is no sign of forced entry into the home, but that
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doesn't mean that this masked man was let in because they learned that he walked in
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through the second floor glass sliding door, the very one that he was heading toward after he passed Dylan. So, it
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sounds like maybe that had been left unlocked. And listen, Moscow is considered a rural college town, one
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where, at least before November of 2022, it wasn't a big deal to not lock your doors, according to the One Night in
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Idaho docuseries. But even then, you have to be thinking that the killer knew one, maybe all of them,
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knew that the door was sometimes left unlocked, or at the very minimum knew enough about the kind of vibe towards
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safety that he knew he could get in. >> What? Like I I would think he would have
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cased the place first, though. >> Yeah, and I was going to say even like the very nature of this crime feels
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personal, right? Like it feels targeted. And they don't think that this guy was just looking for any house to walk into
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that night. Like he was looking for that house. Yeah. Or maybe, more specifically, someone in that house.
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Yeah, the fact that he left two of them alive in the house makes you think it was about one or more of the four who
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were attacked, right? >> Exactly. Yeah, but And by the way, at this point, those two survivors, they
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still don't know what's fully going on or even the extent of it. Like all they know is what they told 911.
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And this is kind of the wild part to me. So, about an hour after police initially
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showed up, the University of Idaho blast what they call a vandal alert out to the
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students' cell phones. Think of it like a safety announcement. It says that Moscow PD is investigating a homicide on
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King Road near the campus. Everyone should stay away from the area and shelter in place. And then another
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vandal alert comes through. This one says that police are investigating the deaths of four people.
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And that is how Maddie, Xana, Ethan, and Kaylee's friends, who are sitting outside the house still waiting for any
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news about what's happening inside, that is how they learn that their friends were killed.
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God, imagine going from thinking your friend's passed out to realizing that four of your friends have
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been murdered. >> Murdered. And finding out from text message blast from your school.
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>> can't. I don't know how they react in that moment or what the scene outside of
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the house looks like that afternoon as that news not just rippled through the crowd, but like came crashing down all
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at once. Like it had to have been chaotic. Which might be why police start making some moves quickly. Like they
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need to regain control of the situation. Bethany and Dylan and some of the other
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students go to the police station to get formal statements taken, and police officially release the names of the
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students who were killed. 21-year-old Kaylee Goncalves, 21-year-old Madison Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Kernodle, and
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20-year-old Ethan Chapin. But try as they might, control was a hard thing to have.
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Day one, reporters begin flooding to the area while many of the students head out
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because they're understandably scared. Like the university eventually tells students they can attend class remotely.
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And the reporting that is coming out at this point doesn't have a ton of new information. Like no one knew much in
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those early days. Like it had to have been terrifying. But that void of information just drove wild speculation.
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I mean, people online are full-on blaming Dylan and Bethany for the murders like at this point already. And
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police do try to like grab onto the reins again by holding a press conference. They say that they believe
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this was an isolated, targeted attack on the students, but then they also acknowledge that they don't have a
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suspect and they can't say that there's no threat to the community, and they just ask the community to remain
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vigilant. >> Which, with that, I'd be leaving the school, too. >> So many people did, which like, yes, I'm
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out. I'm pulling my kids out. For damn sure, yeah. Safety first, but this only made things harder for police because
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these are also the people that police need to be questioning, and now they're no longer in like one concentrated
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place. >> Right, they're going everywhere. And this is also probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest case that's
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ever hit this department. Oh, and they and they know it, too. Like they're not playing the ego game here. They're
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bringing in help pretty quickly from like a local county sheriff's office, from the FBI. And in doing so, they are
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starting to piece together what everyone in the King Road house was doing on the
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night of the murders, right? Like, divide and conquer. But, God bless Kaylee's sister. She was not about to
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just like leave it to police to figure out. She was apparently getting zero details from police. Just that her
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sister was gone. The end. So, she's like, "Eff it." She rolled up her sleeves and went to work herself. She
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told CBS News that she got into her sister's call log and started calling everyone in there. And she found out
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that her sister went to this local bar called The Corner Club. Then, she got a ride to this food truck. And her sister
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talked to a driver who gave them that ride there. And he told her that the food truck, this place known as The Grub
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Truck, had a camera. And so, she's actually the one who got that video footage. I feel like we all saw this
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video footage early on. I didn't realize she got that. But she saw it first. She
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sees her sister and Maddie together on the camera. And she sees them, you know, get their
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food or whatever, then get into this car together, but alone, just the two of them. And police confirm that the driver
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took them home. He dropped them off at the house at around 1:56 a.m. God bless sisters, man. Listen, if this isn't
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reason enough for everyone to get their if I go missing folders in order, I don't know what is. Like, make it easy
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on your sister, your mother, your father, your friend. Like, they're going to need to get your call logs and text
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in a time of emergency. So, back to the timeline. According to the Idaho 4 book,
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Dylan tells police that she heard Kaylee and Maddie chatting in the living room.
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And then she heard them walk up to the third floor before she fell asleep. She didn't hear Ethan and Xana get home
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though at 1:45. But based on what Bethany told police, they know that's when they got back from hanging out at
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Ethan's frat house on campus. So, we've got everyone known to be back at the house by 2:00 a.m.
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But they're not all sleeping just yet. There is still activity on Kaylee and Maddie's cell phones. Though it does
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start to die down as the hours tick by. By 4:00 a.m., it seems like all the housemates are in their room. And Xana
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receives a DoorDash order around this time, too. 4:00 in the morning. Her phone shows that she may have been
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scrolling on TikTok for like about 12 more minutes after the DoorDash delivery. And according to the police
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affidavit in this case, not long after that, Dylan comes face to face with the killer. It makes me think that he
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started at the top floor, right? Killed Maddie and Kaylee, then came down, killed Xana and Ethan after.
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I know you said Dylan thought it was Maddie who said, "Someone's here." And maybe it was. But I also wonder like,
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what if it Could have been Ethan. >> like saying that to Ethan. >> Or Ethan to Xana. Listen, I could spend
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20 minutes spiraling about this, but like, I'm going to keep it short and sweet to what we do know as fact in this
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moment. For the longest time, no one knew what order it happened in. But just a couple of weeks ago in court,
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prosecutors say that the way you kind of laid it out is exactly what they think happened. That basically, the killer
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came into the home, went straight upstairs first, killed Maddie and Kaylee, then as he was coming
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downstairs, he encountered Xana. Maybe getting her food, maybe eating it somewhere else. I mean, I know there was
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a Jack in the Box bag with her name on it seen in photos in the kitchen. But it was also really messy kitchen. I can't
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say for sure that that bag was from that night. But it's possible. I mean, there
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are still so many details we don't have. But he encounters her somewhere. Though
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we know she is at least in her doorway by the time he kills her, and then Ethan.
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But then, why leave Dylan untouched? I mean, we know she like had this like encounter with him, too.
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>> Why? Right? Like, that is our big question. Was it the way that they responded diff- like, did they respond
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differently when they encountered him and it got different reactions from him? Was it something else?
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Now, despite police over and over again saying that they do not think Dylan or Bethany were involved, I told you,
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people online were brutal. They didn't understand how Dylan could see someone in the house in this like
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mask and not say anything. And they really didn't understand how the pair could like wake up the next morning and
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then be on like social media and calling people who weren't the police. And I don't think they liked the way that
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Dylan's statements or descriptions of the suspect developed over time. Like, earliest statement she gives, she
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describes this guy as not insanely tall, which is like very vague. And then later, she gives an actual range. It was
00:24:25
like 5'10" to 6 ft. And then it's not till the third sit-down that she describes what is now infamously
00:24:32
synonymous with this case, the bushy eyebrows. But experts have said that Bethany and Dylan were likely
00:24:38
experiencing a trauma response. And by the way, we're old. Like, 20-something-year-olds do a lot of their
00:24:45
communications with friends on social media. So, it is very possible that's how they were reaching out to their
00:24:51
friends in that morning trying to get people over or to find out things like as they were having this trauma
00:24:57
response. Or even like one of the avenues. I know for me like, I have conversations with you on social media
00:25:03
and on text. And on Snapchat. Yeah, there's a million different ways to communicate. And if you're trying to get
00:25:07
a hold of people, why not try every avenue? Right. And as far as like things changing, like, listen, I think she was
00:25:13
still processing it all over time. Like, when like, when she came in one time, she even says that she remembers that
00:25:21
this guy was carrying a vacuum-type object in his hand, which like What would that have been?
00:25:29
>> I don't know. We're not sure. Like, Dylan tells detectives she really didn't know how much of what she was seeing was
00:25:36
reality, what was a dream. >> And how much her mind is trying to >> Fill in the gaps.
00:25:41
>> fill in the blanks. We talked about that all the time. >> Yeah, according to the Idaho 4 book, she
00:25:45
even tells cops that she initially thought that the guy was like a firefighter. When you talk about filling
00:25:49
in gaps. >> Right. Which obviously you're like, well, in all black with a mask on.
00:25:54
>> It doesn't make sense, but I told you like, what's what's every story you can
00:25:56
tell yourself except for the worst one? >> Exactly. >> Trauma response. Like, the brain is wild
00:26:02
when it comes to trauma. But the internet does not care. And it does not stop. They keep coming up with wild theories
00:26:11
about not even just Dylan or Bethany, like the whole friend group, especially those closest to the victims. Including
00:26:18
the ones who came over in the morning to check out the house, Emily and Hunter. And then people were also suspicious of
00:26:24
Maddie's boyfriend, Jake, and then Kaylee's ex-boyfriend, Jack. Everyone's getting attacked on social
00:26:30
media. People were claiming that they must have been involved. And I think it was people just trying to piece together
00:26:37
what could have happened with like almost zero information or just like you get like this itty-bitty piece of the
00:26:44
puzzle with zero context. >> It's kind of another situation of just filling in the blanks.
00:26:49
>> Right. Cuz like, one of the things we knew early on or early-ish was that Kaylee called her ex-boyfriend, Jack, a
00:26:54
few times on the night of the murders. And so, some people online thought that was odd. I think that's why he comes up
00:27:00
so much. But it seems like Kaylee was just like, probably just drunk dialing him with Maddie next to her.
00:27:06
And when we see all the phone records, like when those come out in like late December, again, this is where like all
00:27:10
the speculation comes from because it shows that Dylan was also like deleting pictures on her phone and editing videos
00:27:16
from 5:00 a.m. to 6:30 a.m. And at this time, she's already in Bethany's room. Now, she stops using her phone until
00:27:22
like 8:05 a.m. when she opens Instagram for a bit. But she's also checking Ethan
00:27:26
and Xana's Snapchat locations. But to me, that makes sense if she's wondering if they're home. What the full picture
00:27:33
is, what it means or doesn't mean, we probably would have gotten in a trial and may get when the gag order is
00:27:42
lifted. But for now, spoiler alert, we're about to get to the point where police know who did it. And it's not any
00:27:50
of these kids. Police determine that none of them have anything to do with this crime. But even though, again, even
00:27:58
though we have a person, even though police have said that, I don't even know if that has stopped Dylan and Bethany
00:28:04
from getting hate mail and death threats. Imagine having your friends murdered in
00:28:10
the house that you were in with them. And then being accused of doing it yourself while you're trying to
00:28:17
grieve and deal with survivor's guilt. >> know. Just being that young and trying
00:28:22
to get on with your like, get on with your life to a certain extent while processing all that trauma.
00:28:27
>> Yeah, I don't know what life after that looks like. And it is worth mentioning.
00:28:31
I mean, we our team tried to reach out to Dylan and Bethany, but we didn't hear back.
00:28:35
And by the way, like, I think the friends got the hardest part of this all. But there were tons of people who
00:28:41
were just getting lit up online by others who had no business playing detective. And it made life very hard
00:28:48
for people. Like, there was this guy who was seen in that video footage from the food truck
00:28:53
talking to Maddie and Kaylee. This guy's wearing like a hood, whatever. It's like cold November
00:28:58
weather. But everyone decides that hoodie guy is guilty and did this. Except he didn't. Police determined he
00:29:04
was someone that they knew who they were able to clear of involvement. Wasn't there even like a professor at the
00:29:09
university who got accused of being involved early on? Like, I just remember Oh, yeah.
00:29:14
>> Something about how upside down this accusation turned their life with like zero to back it up.
00:29:21
>> Professor Rebecca Scofield, who teaches at the University of Idaho. So, this one
00:29:25
was like, I remember this vividly. There was this TikToker and self-proclaimed psychic, Ashley Guillard, who accused
00:29:32
this professor of having a secret romantic relationship with one of the victims. I don't know where that came
00:29:38
from, but Guillard was basically saying that the professor ordered the murders. And I mean, there was absolutely no
00:29:44
evidence to back this up. And Scofield actually ended up filing a defamation lawsuit against that Tiktoker and it was
00:29:52
a saga in court with Gillard trying to defend her claims by noting that she got other crime scene details right but the
00:29:59
court ruled early on that Gillard did in fact defame Scofield not surprising. >> Yeah. And they're actually this is still
00:30:06
ongoing they're waiting on a trial to see how much she's going to have to pay her. But again I think that's like one
00:30:11
of the most extreme ones but there were endless other stories that people were coming up with. I mean there's rumors
00:30:17
that drugs were involved. There were also rumblings of Kaylee having a stalker but the Moscow PD looks into all
00:30:23
of it and nothing comes of any of those rumors. But still police follow each one
00:30:28
of these even the far-fetched ones. But when nothing pans out they start scouring the area near King Road for
00:30:35
surveillance footage. Have they already sent the knife sheaths and stuff off for
00:30:40
forensic testing by this point? >> Oh yeah. All of this is happening really fast like they're not just going to like
00:30:44
hold off and wait for that to come back though. I mean know they're working against the clock when it comes to an
00:30:49
active investigation and they want to get everything they can as fast as they can. And again not above asking for
00:30:55
help. So they actually lean on Moscow residents and local businesses to look at their own video footage and bring
00:31:01
them anything that they think is sus and they end up getting footage that shows a
00:31:06
white Hyundai Elantra near the King Road house a little before 3:30 a.m. on the night
00:31:13
of the murders and then they keep seeing it until like 4:20 and there's this weird pattern of
00:31:20
activity like the driver just keeps passing the house over and over again. I mean it's chilling when you know what
00:31:28
happened there and by the way the house is on a dead-end street so anyone passing it this many times is doing it
00:31:33
intentionally. What's even more chilling is at exactly 4:04 a.m. this car is seen
00:31:41
stopping and turning around and it looks like this person tries to park on the street behind the house in
00:31:49
an area that can't be seen on surveillance. So we don't know what happens cuz a little bit of time goes by and then at
00:31:56
4:20 a.m. this car is seen one final time speeding away from the house. And what time did the DoorDash food get
00:32:04
dropped off to Xana? Was it right in that same window? 4 a.m. Yeah and at some point they actually did find that
00:32:11
DoorDash driver and she says that she parked right next to this white car. Maybe even saw the killer according to
00:32:18
ABC News but exactly what she said if she said more than that hasn't been fully released. I think they were
00:32:24
at least up till this point trying to keep her story locked up for a potential trial but I wonder if more's going to
00:32:30
come out because the timing is wild to me. Mhm. And I mean to be clear she's been totally
00:32:36
clear. She like just dropped off the food and left but Right but was he already in the house? Was he still in
00:32:43
his car? >> Exactly like was it just lucky timing that the DoorDash driver didn't see or hear more
00:32:51
or spook him or what Did he know it was coming? Like did he have to wait for it?
00:32:56
Like there's all the questions? Yeah. >> Yeah like how regularly was DoorDash ordered at 4 a.m. on a Saturday night
00:33:04
out right? Like I know my DoorDash account sees a lot of action usually at certain times like
00:33:10
maybe he this guy like he knew to wait. >> Or maybe he was just passing the house
00:33:15
all those times until he saw the lights go out or something too. He's waiting for something. Now police don't have
00:33:22
good enough video footage to see this guy or even see the plates on the car and they couldn't make contact with that
00:33:29
DoorDash driver for a while to even get a description or anything from her. So they did the best they could with what
00:33:35
they had in those like immediate first couple of days. So on November 25th this is 12 days
00:33:40
after the murder Moscow police ask all law enforcement to be on the lookout for this car which they only know to be a
00:33:48
2011 to 2013 white Hyundai Elantra. And while they wait for responses they start running down leads that could
00:33:58
maybe connect someone to the murder weapon. Completely unaware though that within 4
00:34:03
days Washington State University Police in Pullman Washington come across a white
00:34:11
Hyundai Elantra that kind of fits the description they got on that bolo. So they ran the plates but for whatever
00:34:19
reason maybe because this car they're running the plates on is 2 years newer than what they were looking for this
00:34:24
one's a 2015 they don't pass that tip on to Moscow police. They just make a note
00:34:30
of it in their own records that says they ran this and it was registered to someone who lives in a student apartment
00:34:36
at the school. Someone named Brian Kohberger. And that student apartment that he lives
00:34:44
in it's only a 19-minute drive to 1122 King Road. Painfully unaware of the development
00:34:56
made over in Washington police are coming at the investigation from every other angle they can think of.
00:35:03
That sheath that they found had a serial number on it so they start serving search warrants to Amazon and eBay
00:35:10
trying to track down the buyer and that's when they get a good news bad news break in the case. Good news maybe
00:35:17
you won't need to rely on this car or the eBay search warrant or whatever to lead to the killer. Lab testing is done
00:35:24
and there is an unknown male profile DNA on the knife sheath but oh wait bad news
00:35:31
actually maybe you need to do that stuff because we put that into CODIS and there isn't a match.
00:35:36
>> Okay but good news IGG exists. Totally and by the way they also like cross-reference with like the people in
00:35:42
this case not there's either. So they do they jump to IGG investigative genetic genealogy. Now for those of you who
00:35:49
aren't like totally read up on this the DNA profile that you pull for CODIS is different than what you need for IGG. So
00:35:57
even though this is an exciting viable option that most investigations didn't even have just a couple of years before
00:36:03
this it's also going to take a minute because they have to start the testing process all over again starting from
00:36:09
trying to pull a viable snip profile uploading that to public databases like JedMatch and then working a family tree
00:36:17
backwards from Lord only knows what distant relative. >> Right. So it's not for another month on
00:36:23
December 19th that Moscow police hear Brian Kohberger's name for the very first time and when they start looking
00:36:30
into this guy I can only imagine how elated they are when the lead investigator on this case Detective
00:36:37
Corporal Brett Payne sees Kohberger's driver's license photo and determines he looks a lot like Dylan's description.
00:36:46
Even has those bushy eyebrows she mentioned. And it just keeps getting better when they see what car he drives
00:36:52
a white 2015 Hyundai Elantra. And it must just feel like icing on the cake when they search surveillance
00:37:00
footage around Kohberger's apartment in Pullman on the night of the murders and lo and behold it shows him leaving
00:37:07
in said white car at 2:44 a.m. heading south on State Road 270 toward Moscow. This is it like this is their guy.
00:37:19
There is just one problem. Their guy booked it out of town 6 days before they realized who he was.
00:37:27
They find out that on December 13th Kohberger and his dad took a cross-country drive from Washington
00:37:34
State to Albrightsville Pennsylvania where his parents live. So his dad flew out there to make the
00:37:41
drive. >> Yeah. And was this planned? Like I'm curious what his dad was thinking when
00:37:46
they made this trip because it is a it's a commitment of a trip. >> It's it's weird right? Like court
00:37:52
documents say that the reason he's making this trip is he's headed home for winter break. So I don't know maybe he
00:37:58
told his dad that he wanted his car for break dad wanted to make sure that he made the trip safely. They wanted
00:38:03
bonding time. I don't know but even a cop that pulled them over along the way thought it was weird. They got pulled
00:38:09
over twice actually in Indiana of all places like it's a little weird that I feel who's your pride. But they're just
00:38:15
like pulled over in like routine stops and in one of them there's body cam footage and you can hear the trooper ask
00:38:20
Kohberger and his dad like where you going? And you can't really make out what they tell the trooper. I mean we
00:38:26
know where they're going right? I assume they tell them Pennsylvania and the trooper jokingly asked like are you guys
00:38:30
scared of airplanes or like Right like it is a long trip. >> Yeah but like this the stop doesn't
00:38:36
result in anything they're just let go with no issues. There are theories online though from internet sleuths
00:38:42
after the fact wondering if maybe he was using this time to dump evidence. There
00:38:48
is no evidence of this and it might be as simple as the dude was just going about life as normal and to him it
00:38:55
doesn't matter that he just slaughtered four kids and wrecked four families even
00:38:58
more friends and loved ones. It was Christmas break and he planned to drive home.
00:39:04
I also wonder if he was wanting to get his car out of the area. But before police just show up at his
00:39:10
door in Pennsylvania they want their ducks in a row. So a bunch of things happen in quick succession starting with
00:39:17
learning everything they can about this guy. What they learn is that Brian Kohberger was in Washington State
00:39:23
University's PhD program. And for those crime junkies who are coming in fresh to
00:39:28
this welcome to one of the most messed up parts about this case. He was getting his PhD in criminology.
00:39:36
And he'd even earned a master's degree in criminal justice from DeSales University in Pennsylvania earlier that
00:39:43
year. Where he studied under serial killer expert Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who wrote the biography of Dennis Rader,
00:39:52
better known as the BTK killer. Yeah. Even applied for an internship with the Pullman Police Department in 2022. But
00:40:00
this is where things start to get eerie. So, they find out that as part of a research project he did at DeSales, he
00:40:07
set up this online survey. And Brian Kohberger was listed as the student investigator.
00:40:14
And listen, I'm going to post this whole thing because it is fascinating, and I read every single
00:40:19
line, but I know that we're on the clock here, and you guys have already given me
00:40:22
like a ton of time, so I'm going to give you the highlights. Here's some of what
00:40:25
it says. Please note that the following survey asks you to detail your most recent
00:40:32
criminal offense, whether you were caught or not. In the event that you were not charged, convicted, or
00:40:38
incarcerated for the offense, you may still participate in this research. Welcome to the research study. We are
00:40:45
interested in understanding how emotions and psychological traits influence the decision-making involved in committing a
00:40:51
crime. After completing a series of background questions, you will be presented with
00:40:56
open-ended questions relevant to the most recent crime you were involved in, and asked to detail your thoughts,
00:41:02
emotions, and actions from the beginning to the end of the crime commission process.
00:41:08
So, then it goes on, it gives instructions about filling it out, how long it should take, and then it goes
00:41:13
into the questions. Some of which are, how did you travel to and enter the location that the crime
00:41:20
occurred? After arriving, what steps did you take prior to locating the victim or
00:41:25
target, i.e., person or object? Please detail your thoughts and feelings. Why did you choose that victim or target
00:41:32
over others? And before leaving the scene, the crime scene, is there anything else you did? And by
00:41:39
the way, this whole thing gets posted months before the murders. Listen, his professor at the time, who only knew him
00:41:47
through an online class, said that it it, being the survey, it falls square into the type of research that they
00:41:53
would do in the school's master program. So, she didn't think anything was weird
00:41:58
about it. But she did know that he didn't actually use any of the data from the questionnaire.
00:42:06
So, like, did no one answer? Was it really data gathering for personal use? Will we
00:42:13
ever know? I mean, I'm sure police know. They had to have collected all his devices and talked to the school and
00:42:20
>> Oh, I'm sure because like I know they went through a lot of his digital stuff
00:42:24
starting, I know, with phone records. And let me talk about those. So, Kohberger's phone records match the
00:42:29
surveillance footage outside of his home in Pullman. This shows he leaves around
00:42:33
the same time. This one tracks it at 2:47 a.m. the night of the murders. But then, his phone suddenly goes off
00:42:39
the grid. Like he turned it off or put it in airplane mode. Sounds like the criminology student didn't want anyone
00:42:46
tracking his movements. >> Yeah, and so his phone stays dark all the way up until 4:48 a.m. when it comes
00:42:52
back online and pings, putting him on State Highway 95 south of Moscow. Now, his phone is traveling
00:43:00
south, and he takes this like long way back to Pullman. And by 5:30 a.m., his phone is home.
00:43:10
And you said from his place to the King's Road house is like 15, 20 minutes? >> 20 minutes tops. Like, when you're
00:43:16
taking highways with cameras, 20 minutes. But if you say went the back roads that are darker, that don't have
00:43:24
cameras, less traveled, yep. Something else they see on his phone records gives me full body chills.
00:43:31
5 hours after the murders, Kohberger's phone leaves his home again and travels back to Moscow.
00:43:39
And not just back to the town in general, his phone pings the cell towers covering
00:43:46
the King Road house between 9:12 a.m. and 9:21 a.m. I never knew that. So, I know. I didn't like till I got deep in
00:43:55
this. So, he returned to the scene of the crime. It's possible. Mhm. And like I I'm just like thinking back, all of
00:44:03
their friends are out in front of that house at that time. >> No, they're not. They don't come out
00:44:06
until later. They're still Bethany and Dylan are still in the room. I know. And listen, I have a zillion thoughts about
00:44:12
this. Like, at some point he had to have realized that he was missing the knife sheath,
00:44:19
like with a serial number on it that he bought with his own name. So, would he have gone back to try and see
00:44:26
if he could get that? But maybe there was like, again, they're not outside yet. There's no activity around the
00:44:33
house necessarily at that moment. >> have to imagine that like It's 9:00 in the morning. Like, things are happening,
00:44:38
people are out. Like, and so maybe he didn't have the opportunity. Or maybe he was just going back hoping to catch a
00:44:46
glimpse of a crime scene, which But like you said, it wasn't a crime scene to anyone
00:44:53
else yet. >> And how long did his phone put him there? It was just those like 9 minutes.
00:45:00
So, I don't know. Again, what was he trying to get in? I don't feel like someone who would commit a crime like
00:45:05
this like is above just sadistically watching from the sidelines, like wanting to see the chaos you created.
00:45:12
But you also can't just like hang around and wait for it to happen. So, 9 minutes, whatever he's doing, he gives
00:45:18
it 9 minutes, and then he drives back to Pullman, to his house, and then takes a
00:45:22
selfie with like a thumbs up in his mirror bathroom. Now, it's unclear if he was like in his
00:45:28
apartment the entire time after that or what, but later that afternoon at 12:46 p.m., his phone shows up around like a
00:45:35
50-minute drive away from his place near a coffee stand in Clarkston. Then he goes to a grocery store nearby. Though
00:45:43
police know that this area is by two large bodies of water, Clearwater River and the Snake River.
00:45:50
So, again, like, are we throwing things away? We still can't find the murder weapon. Around 5:30 p.m., he is again
00:45:58
back on those unlit back roads in Washington that can lead to Moscow. And then again,
00:46:04
his phone goes for about 3 hours. And what he's doing in that time, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever
00:46:11
know. Was it the same thing he was trying to do earlier in the day? But my gut tells me that these moves were
00:46:17
carefully planned because police can see in the phone data that Kohberger's cell
00:46:23
phone wasn't just near King Road on the morning after the murders. His phone pinged on the cell towers covering that
00:46:31
area approximately 23 times in the months leading up to November 13th, starting all the way back in July. And
00:46:39
it was always between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 4:00 a.m. So, he kind of was casing the place. Yep. This is what I'm
00:46:49
saying, this home was his target. But still, why? Why this specific home? And what
00:46:57
set this into motion then? Clearly, this was a plot months in the making, right?
00:47:02
Like, his phone starts pinging there in July. And when they see his online shopping records, they know that he
00:47:07
bought that knife on Amazon 8 months before the murders. And then, by the way, he searched for one just like it
00:47:14
days after the murder. So, he's probably trying to like replace the one he got rid of. And again, I know we don't know
00:47:20
if this like online school survey that he didn't use the data of has anything to do with anything, but it feels like
00:47:26
everything starts like a few months before this, right? Like, that's when that gets posted, too. So, police feel
00:47:31
like they are on the edge of an arrest now. All roads lead to Bryan Kohberger. So, that's when they start surveilling
00:47:38
his parents' home in Pennsylvania. He's still there on winter break. According to ksl.com, they see Kohberger clean his
00:47:44
car from top to bottom. They apparently see him wearing surgical gloves at some point, like multiple times, which like
00:47:52
odd. >> Little off, yeah. So, when the family puts their trash on the curb, law enforcement swoops in to grab it and
00:48:00
send it to the Idaho State Lab for testing. So, by the way, DNA testing can happen fast, now we know. The very next
00:48:06
day, DNA from a Q-tip in that trash definitively gets linked to the dad of whoever's DNA was on the knife sheath.
00:48:16
So, on December 30th, at around 12:30 a.m., snipers surround the Kohberger family home in Pennsylvania, and
00:48:23
Pennsylvania's CERT team breaks down the door and takes Kohberger into custody on
00:48:28
suspicion of four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. Why the burglary charge? I thought
00:48:35
nothing was taken. >> Nothing was, that's that's just standard in Idaho. If you enter a home to commit
00:48:41
a theft or any kind of felony, you get a burglary charge, even if nothing was taken or you didn't complete whatever
00:48:46
the felony was. So, once they have him in custody, their work is far from over. They got to
00:48:51
collect his DNA for a direct comparison, like cuz you can't convict him on dad's
00:48:55
connecting match, which they do, and no surprise here. It's his. Now, they search his car,
00:49:02
which they collect as well, for evidence, but it's super clean. Yeah, they watched him scrub it from top to
00:49:08
bottom. I what? I I literally wanted to pull my hair out when I heard that part forever ago. But listen, I think they
00:49:15
were playing the long game here. I guess they didn't want to like blow their case
00:49:18
by stopping him from cleaning his car. Like, they had plenty of other evidence against him if they played their cards
00:49:22
right. So, car, no go. But they also search his parents' home. They find a knife. It doesn't end up being the
00:49:29
knife, so no real help there. They also collect black gloves, a black face mask,
00:49:34
a black hat, Glock 40-caliber magazines, and like a lot of criminology books. Was
00:49:39
it the same type of mask that Dylan described? And like the gloves, were they the same like the one that was in
00:49:45
the bushes? I don't know. It it like when I look at the stuff, it like doesn't isn't totally clear on the mask.
00:49:50
I do know that police find out that he purchased a balaclava months before the murders. Again, months, it's like all
00:49:57
happening at the same time. And that like that they have purchase records of, it's the same kind of black mask that
00:50:02
like covers your whole face. And that one matched Dylan's initial description. So, we know he had one or or at least
00:50:08
purchased one. I don't know if that's the one they found. And as far as the gloves go,
00:50:13
and this is actually an interesting monkey wrench. I need listeners to tell me what they think this means,
00:50:18
respectfully. Like theories only, no accusations. >> Please. So, I don't know if it was the
00:50:23
same type of glove. It's not listed in any reports. But what is listed is that the glove at King Road, that got tested
00:50:32
for DNA alongside the knife sheath, along with the spot of blood on the handrail.
00:50:37
>> Yeah. The blood spot on the handrail and the DNA in the glove, those came back as
00:50:43
not Bryan Kohberger. Okay, then whose was it? I don't know. Like apparently whatever that DNA they
00:50:51
got from those wasn't eligible for CODIS, which could have been for a number of reasons. Like we know there's a bunch of
00:50:56
specific rules about the profile and how >> It has to like meet certain qualifications and specifications. I
00:51:02
also know like not only does the profile have to be good enough, but like it has
00:51:05
to meet like you have to be able to like say that this was related to the crime.
00:51:10
And maybe they like don't know that for sure. Like blood in the house feels like
00:51:14
probably >> But maybe it doesn't tie like the glove like out Anyways, so I don't know why it wasn't
00:51:20
included in CODIS. But court records show I mean I know investigators already had Kohberger's name and DNA by the like
00:51:27
the point that they learned about this other stuff. >> Mhm. But Detective Payne obviously has
00:51:32
been asked about this. And like court records showed the answer he gave as as to why not CODIS. And like to me, I
00:51:39
don't really fully understand it. Um he said that his quote understanding was that entering a new DNA profile into
00:51:47
CODIS would get rid of the one that was already in there from the sheath. And they decided to address the other DNA
00:51:54
down the road only if they needed to. So, okay. Which like doesn't I think you can enter two. But like I I don't know
00:52:00
for sure. >> Seems like we should be able to enter more than one profile. >> were like not in this crime, but like
00:52:06
I'm trying I'm thinking back to old crimes if there was like more than one culprit. Or more than one piece of
00:52:11
evidence. I don't know. Uh okay. Uh all that aside, these other two items with DNA profiles on
00:52:20
them, the glove, the spot on the handrail, >> Mhm. those were the same profile on both?
00:52:27
>> No, so uh no. That would I think be even more suspicious. These are two separate
00:52:32
unidentified male profiles. >> Oh. >> Still unidentified to this day. So, sorry, we got a little bit sidetracked
00:52:37
of like all of that. But we're back to the search warrant. So, they also search his apartment. They search an office he
00:52:44
had at Washington State. They're looking at all his devices, cell phone, computer, hard drive. They take a vacuum
00:52:50
container into evidence. >> Wait, so did Dylan really see him holding a vacuum? I don't think so. Police at that point
00:52:57
think that Dylan probably was just trying to like like we said earlier make sense of what was I don't I don't think
00:53:02
it was a legit vacuum that she saw. >> Mhm. But I'm just sure they're taking it wanting to analyze what's inside of the
00:53:07
vacuum since this is an actual vacuum container and this guy's obviously like intensely cleaning things.
00:53:12
>> Well, and to like check the box. She said vacuum, we have a vacuum. Yeah, also are you like sweeping out things
00:53:17
and there's hair or fibers or whatever. They take another black glove. They take
00:53:21
some receipts, parts of an uncased pillow that has stains that police describe as reddish brown and possible
00:53:28
animal hair among other things. I mean they are going through all of it. And they send all of it off to the lab.
00:53:35
And with Kohberger behind bars, on December 30th, the Pennsylvania State Police and Moscow PD announced his
00:53:42
arrest to the public. And later that day, his mugshot is all over the internet. Yeah, so this is one of those
00:53:49
cases that I had been loosely following, but wasn't tracking like super closely.
00:53:54
I got behind one day and it was like it got away from me. >> Yeah, I know. But I remember being
00:54:00
pretty floored that this arrest happened so quickly. Well, especially when like early on, like it it did seem so random.
00:54:07
>> came out like no one had any information. And then all of a sudden we had him. And like I was I I've seen it
00:54:14
go so bad so many times that I think I was a little shocked. But I think everyone was it was they were shocked,
00:54:20
but they were elated like great, we have this guy, we found him. But who is he? >> Mhm. And I mean Kaylee's dad, Steve
00:54:26
Goncalves, told Good Morning America that I mean when he saw it, he felt like this cloud was lifted off of him and his
00:54:33
family. Like I mean it has to feel like such a weight. Like okay, we're one step
00:54:36
closer. >> Mhm. But I mean we know that an arrest is only the beginning. And we know the
00:54:42
way that the time leading up to and at trial can become a media circus. >> Yeah, been there, done that. Her name
00:54:49
was Karen Read. >> Exactly. Listen, I don't know if most of the families knew what they would be in
00:54:55
for. I like and I'm not talking about these four. Like any family that goes through this, I don't know if you know
00:54:59
what you're in for unless you've already lived through it. But it doesn't matter.
00:55:03
At least for the Goncalves's family, they want their day in court because they want to know why this happened. So,
00:55:09
Kohberger has a hearing in Pennsylvania on January 3rd. He agrees to be extradited to Idaho, which happens the
00:55:15
next day. And then he's quickly assigned a court-appointed public defender, Kootenai County Chief Public Defender
00:55:22
Anne Taylor. And there's I feel like I'm full of side stories today, which is like usually not my jam, but like
00:55:27
>> is the case. >> There's this whole other side story that I'll summarize quickly. Basically, it
00:55:32
comes up that the public defender's office represented Xana's mom at some point or in a like a couple different
00:55:38
points, Cara Northington. But Anne Taylor argued in court that there was no conflict of interest. And because well,
00:55:45
she's saying that she didn't actually represent Cara herself. Her name is just on all of the paperwork in the office
00:55:50
because she is the chief attorney. And I'm not going to get into all of like Cara's legal stuff because she's not the
00:55:55
one on trial here. But this matters because Taylor had been assigned but withdrew from Cara's most recent case
00:56:03
the same day Kohberger appeared in court for the first time in Idaho, January 5th. So, Cara told NewsNation later that
00:56:09
month that she felt heartbroken because she trusted Taylor. I mean like like she's now she's not going to defend you.
00:56:15
She's going to go defend the guy who's accused of murdering your daughter. >> Right. Right.
00:56:20
Now, the thing I'll say is like since she is the chief public defender and it this is a death penalty case or
00:56:27
was going to be a death penalty case. >> top of the list. >> Yeah, she might have been one of the
00:56:31
only ones who can take on something this big. But still it has to feel like a slap in the face nonetheless, right?
00:56:38
Like as as a mom. So, anyways, soon after Kohberger had gotten arrested, they actually brought Dylan back in for
00:56:44
questioning. And she tells police that she found Kohberger's mugshot online after she heard about the arrest. But
00:56:49
when they ask her if she recognizes him as the guy she saw in the house, she said she doesn't know.
00:56:55
And she doesn't know who he is outside of this. No, like and any connection found to any of the
00:57:02
victims or survivors? >> Well, no, it doesn't seem like any of them knew him. And honestly,
00:57:09
had it not been for the sheath. This is what I'm saying with like when I saw the
00:57:12
arrest and when you realize what like how it happened, had it not been for the sheath, I don't know if they would have
00:57:18
connected him to anything inside that house. I mean his DNA isn't matched to any of like the hair that they found. No
00:57:23
fiber samples collected from the murder scene. And nothing in his car or house could be tied to the victims either. But
00:57:29
he did. He made that mistake. They've got his DNA placing him there. They've got the cell phone pings now that seem
00:57:35
to indicate he was canvassing the scene leading up to the murders. And that's what matters to police. So,
00:57:41
on May 16th, he gets officially indicted. On May 22nd, we're now in 2023, he declines to even give a plea. So, the
00:57:49
judge has to enter one for him, not guilty on all counts. And then a trial date gets set. And then
00:57:56
pushed and then pushed some more. But it looked like it was finally locked in. August 18th, 2025 was going to be
00:58:03
the start of opening statements. I mean we even started reporting on this story in anticipation of a trial start date.
00:58:10
We were even going to stream it on the Crime Junkie Jury YouTube page to keep close tabs on how it was unfolding. And
00:58:16
then, just weeks away from the trial start, prosecutors dropped a bomb. And I'm not kidding you when I tell you the
00:58:24
collective gasp in the office. Like >> Yeah. we did not see it coming. I mean listen, I like I was a little surprised
00:58:32
early on that we didn't start here, start at a plea deal. But like now, this close to the trial, too.
00:58:39
All right. Based on the state's proffer and importantly based upon defendant's uh
00:58:46
uh explicit admission to committing these crimes, the court finds there is a factual basis.
00:58:52
Therefore, uh with respect to count one, burglary felony, how do you plead, Mr. Kohberger, guilty or not guilty?
00:58:58
Guilty. As to count two, murder in the first degree as it relates to uh the murder of
00:59:05
Madison how do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count three, as it
00:59:11
relates to murder in the first degree for the murder of Kaylee Goncalves, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
00:59:15
Guilty. As to count four, the first degree murder of Xana Kernodle Kernodle, pardon me, uh human being, how
00:59:23
do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count five, uh first degree murder
00:59:29
of Ethan Chapin, a being, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Right.
00:59:38
The court will find that the defendant understands the nature of the charges and each offense and the possible
00:59:45
consequences to him of his guilty plea. The court finds that there is a factual basis for the plea and the finds the
00:59:51
defendant believes the plea to be in his best interest. I find that the plea the
00:59:54
plea was given freely, voluntarily, and was intelligently made. I accept the plea. I direct that it be entered.
01:00:00
I'll continue the matter for sentencing in this case. When Kohberger changed his plea and
01:00:06
admitted to killing Maddie, Xana, Ethan, and Kaylee, he was doing it in exchange
01:00:12
for one thing. The deal put forward to Bryan Kohberger was that if he would plead guilty to all
01:00:20
four counts of murder, prosecutors would take the death penalty off the table. And I was a little shocked to learn that
01:00:27
the families of the victims didn't know about this plea deal until like days before it was set to happen. And some of
01:00:34
them were understandably livid. When he was asked about the deal, Kaylee's dad, Steve, told NBC today that Idaho has
01:00:41
failed his whole family. I know they don't have to, but I still understand why they wouldn't go to the
01:00:49
families first to make sure they were okay with it. I know. Well, I and I I I thought they would.
01:00:56
Listen, I have I have this rule, which by the way, I do not think applies here. I'm not a prosecutor in charge of
01:01:01
deciding whether or not someone has their day in court, but like in my business, I say like don't ask for
01:01:07
someone's opinion unless you plan on really taking it or really giving it like a heavyweight in consideration.
01:01:12
Like if you already have your mind made up, don't make a show of including people in the process.
01:01:16
>> the courtesy of like saying you asked. If you're going to do what you're going
01:01:18
to do, just do it. >> So, if they already had their minds made up, maybe they weren't going to ask, but
01:01:24
it just as well could be that they had enough contact with the families to know where each one of them
01:01:31
stood, and they could have known that they were going to get different answers from them. Like they the families were
01:01:35
not all aligned. So, I don't think there was going to be one decision that pleased everyone. Like Ethan's family
01:01:42
had no plans to attend the trial in the first place because they didn't want to re-traumatize themselves. And they
01:01:47
released a statement after the news of Kohberger's plea deal saying that they support it. For them, it seems like it's
01:01:54
a moment of closure. And I imagine had they known a plea deal was an option that wasn't taken and then
01:02:00
this case was going to be made a spectacle of in their minds unnecessarily, they probably would have
01:02:05
been upset with that outcome. Maybe, I don't know. I just know that this isn't the first time that the families have
01:02:11
disagreed on how authorities handled one or more parts of the investigation. Like
01:02:16
for example, there was like there are certain blips in this case I just remember so vividly. One of them is when
01:02:21
the King Road house at the university was destroyed. So, the university actually owned the house. And after the
01:02:28
murders, the school had it demolished. Again, Kaylee's dad, Steve, was very vocal about his disagreement with the
01:02:35
decision because he thought that police should have made sure that house was preserved until the trial. But Ethan's
01:02:40
family supported the demolition. In the Amazon docu-series, Ethan's brother, Hunter, who by the way, Ethan
01:02:47
had two siblings. He was one of a set of triplets who were all at that university.
01:02:52
But his brother, Hunter, didn't live too far from the King Road house. He could see the house from his bedroom window.
01:02:59
And it was the first thing he saw when he woke up, and he just didn't want to look at it anymore. Yeah, I don't think
01:03:04
anyone would want that daily reminder. And like in general, as far as the trial goes, people handle grief differently. I
01:03:13
get just wanting the person who did it to accept responsibility and to not drag it out because
01:03:19
at the end of the day, nothing can bring your kid back. And it just has to hurt all the time.
01:03:24
For sure. And I mean, people will say like, "Oh, well, they weren't planning on going to the trial anyways." But like
01:03:29
think about it. You think that's going to stop them hearing about every last detail? Like ask someone in your life
01:03:35
who's not a crime junkie if they know about this case. They know about this case. It is everywhere. There would be
01:03:41
no escaping it. But for those family members who did want the trial, what they wanted was the answer to why. And
01:03:50
now they don't get that because along with removing the death penalty, his plea deal didn't require him to give
01:03:58
any details of why he did this. And so, the motive in these murders remains a big mystery throughout this
01:04:06
entire case. However, according to the Idaho 4 book, some family and friends of the victims
01:04:15
do have a theory. They believe that this was targeted, and they believe that the target was Maddie.
01:04:23
But why? I know police have never come out and said this. Well, here I mean, here's the thing. So, there isn't any
01:04:30
real evidence that's been shared with the public that proves Kohberger targeted Maddie.
01:04:37
But according to the book, Kohberger definitely knew who she was. Apparently, he had liked some of her Instagram
01:04:44
photos, even liked some of Kaylee's Instagram photos that had Maddie in them. But did he just find her online?
01:04:52
Or or how would he have known her in the first place even? >> I don't know. Some people who knew the
01:04:57
victims have suggested that maybe he dined at the restaurant that she and Xana worked at in Moscow, this place
01:05:03
called Mad Greek, and maybe he like became fixated on her. >> Like to kill her? Well, the answer like I feel like to
01:05:13
understand how we got like you got to know more about who he is to try and like wrap
01:05:19
your head around that because I don't think it necessarily started that way. So, people who knew him claim that he
01:05:25
struggled with substance use disorder throughout his early years. And by the time he got to Washington State
01:05:30
University for his PhD, it seems like he was somewhat of a loner who had a very clear disdain for women. He was a TA
01:05:39
working for a criminology class leading up to the murders, and his classmates and the students that he taught describe
01:05:45
his behavior toward women and comments that he made in class, they describe them all as like misogynistic and
01:05:51
antagonistic. And he even implied to another student that women should be housemakers and
01:05:58
have no business getting master's degrees. And apparently, he'd been given multiple warnings about his behavior.
01:06:04
But after months of this, the school did get fed up and just shortly after the murders actually, but before he was
01:06:12
caught, he got fired from that TA position. Like it got it got that bad. It kind of sounds like a textbook
01:06:18
description of like incel culture. It kind of is. And admittedly, I had like that term has
01:06:25
come up a ton in this case, and I had heard that term a ton in recent years. I think it gets thrown around a lot, but I
01:06:30
actually read the definition of it for the first time while doing this, and from you know, from Wikipedia. I didn't
01:06:35
go like deep deep, but like the term is associated with an online subculture of mostly male and
01:06:42
heterosexual people who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.
01:06:49
And then they often blame or objectify and denigrate women and girls as a result. So, Patterson and Ward's book,
01:06:56
as well as the documentary we mentioned, and lots of experts in this case say that Kohberger
01:07:04
not not just that we're like talking about incel in general, but he was specifically modeling himself after a
01:07:10
guy named Elliot Rodger, who I wasn't super familiar with. Elliot was a 22-year-old mass murderer
01:07:17
who went on a stabbing and shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, targeting primarily women outside of a
01:07:25
sorority and the surrounding area. He killed six people, injured 14 others before taking his own life. And right
01:07:32
before the attacks, he had posted some YouTube videos and this 137-page manifesto titled My Twisted World. And
01:07:41
in all of this, he complained about how he was still a virgin, and he hated women for rejecting him. He wrote out a
01:07:48
detailed plan that he spent years coming up with calling the attacks the day of retribution. According to the Idaho 4
01:07:56
book, Kohberger even took a class taught by Dr. Ramsland at DeSales that focused
01:08:01
on spree murderers like Elliot Rodger, and the Rodger's YouTube video was part of the syllabus.
01:08:08
And of course, this could all just be people trying to make sense of a crime that maybe doesn't make a lot of sense.
01:08:13
But I haven't even gotten to the papa Rodger of it all. I totally forgot about the papa Rodger
01:08:21
thing. >> It's this is like another weird moment. So, in the days after the murders,
01:08:26
there was a Facebook group started up called University of Idaho Case Discussion Facebook Group Page. And the
01:08:33
goal was to spread information that could help the investigation. And like that stuff's pretty typical when you
01:08:38
have these major cases. But one person active on the page and posting under the name Papa Rodger
01:08:46
caught a lot of people's eye. Papa Rodger like an ode to Elliot Rodger? Potentially.
01:08:52
Now, whoever this was started commenting some really weird stuff in the group. Like information the public did not know
01:09:01
yet. And I actually brought some of it for you to read. Of the evidence released, the murder
01:09:06
weapon has been consistent as a large fixed-blade knife. This leads me to believe they found the sheath.
01:09:14
So, like not a big deal to us right now, but in that moment, this person should not have known that because when Papa
01:09:22
Rodger posted that, it wasn't public knowledge that a sheath had been left behind.
01:09:27
And I don't think a sheath is like the logical thought most people would come to. Like most people would I I feel like
01:09:34
talk about knives and be like, "Oh, like a stab wounds or whatever." Because like
01:09:37
the autopsy, I don't know. But it was strange. And then he asked other odd things in the Facebook group
01:09:43
that the book mentions. Like, "How did the killer hold the knife prior to entering the scene in your opinion?"
01:09:50
Sounds a lot like a survey. And he also wrote that the killer isn't in the group's immediate circle. And the guy
01:09:55
reportedly argued incessantly with other commenters. And at some point, police started monitoring this group. Like it
01:10:04
made it to their radar as well, just because of this Papa Roger guy. And eventually Papa Roger gets banned from
01:10:09
the group for name-calling. Now, I think it's also interesting that we know police took a book from Kohberger's
01:10:17
house that they say had information on page 118 of that book. Like that was underlined.
01:10:25
Now, we're like piecing together things here because police have never said what
01:10:30
that book was, but there's a lot of speculation online that it was Elliot Rodger's manifesto because page 118 of
01:10:39
that talks about how he selected the date for his massacre that he carried out. Do we know if there's any
01:10:46
significance to November 13th? No. So, there's nothing been reported on about that or or if they tied A to B. It's
01:10:54
just again a weird thing that keeps coming up. Now, I would imagine that if all of this stuff is backed up by police
01:11:01
reports and data found on his devices or in his home or office or whatever, we might get more one day.
01:11:09
But for now, all we can do is speculate. I mean, there's been a gag order in this
01:11:13
case since very early on, and I'm not sure when that's going to be lifted. >> Are permanent gag orders a thing?
01:11:20
I mean, they're a pretty rare in criminal trials unless it's like a matter of Usually when they can do it is
01:11:26
like national security or something like that. So, if it was Maddie he was targeting, I still don't get the reason
01:11:33
behind why some roommates were also targeted and others weren't. Well, I mean, if his focus was on Maddie
01:11:41
and Kaylee was in the bed with her, maybe I don't know, he could have gotten surprised by that, maybe not, I don't
01:11:46
know. One thing, this is like not backed up by anyone. Dylan talks about like, "Oh, I heard noises. I thought she was
01:11:51
playing with her dog." I also kind of wonder if he went into Kaylee's Like, how much did he scope the house? Did he
01:11:56
go into Kaylee's room first and like see the dog and then like, "Oh, I got to go
01:11:59
find her." Right. Again, I'm just like making stuff up at this point. I've no idea, but if the Elliot Rodger thing
01:12:06
is the real deal, then maybe he meant to kill everyone in the house as like a bigger show of his anger. But then also,
01:12:13
I go back to why leave Dylan and Bethany. Now, I don't know if you remember, this is like so long ago, but
01:12:18
back in the day I talked to Zip about this when it first happened. Who's Zip? For my new Crime Junkies, Patrick
01:12:24
Serpolli, he worked for the Pennsylvania State Police. And when he retired in 2015, he was the
01:12:29
unit supervisor of Pennsylvania State Police Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit. But he does a lot of crime
01:12:35
assessment trainings now. We've had him on for a few of our shows. We've talked about different cases.
01:12:41
And early on, I ran into him at I actually think it was like the Deck live show when I was on tour for Deck
01:12:46
Investigates. And this had just happened. Like people were just talking about this. That would have been
01:12:51
February of 2023. And even back then, without like we didn't know much at that point. He said that this was targeted.
01:12:58
He said it was about one of the girls and that he thought whoever it was, like Kohberger had been rejected by her. And
01:13:05
when he talks, when he does his training, he says there are four profile types of offenders.
01:13:10
And when he was like looking at this, he's like, "I think Kohberger is the offender type which is which is
01:13:15
categorized as an anger retaliatory type." Like it's just that anger that drives them and they can't stop until
01:13:22
the anger is gone. But once that anger is gone, it's like they turn off. Like they don't have to kill anymore. So, I
01:13:29
asked him, I'm like, "So, why does he leave two other people or at least one other person that he knows of in the
01:13:35
house? The person who sees him." And Zip's like, "I mean, he didn't have to. Like He's done. Anger's been
01:13:41
released. His motivation for killing is gone basically. Now, the way in which he speculated it
01:13:48
happened was a little different because he thought that maybe he was like killing people in the house until he got
01:13:55
to the person he was looking for. So, if we're going to say that's Maddie. Like everyone who's in his way until he could
01:14:01
get that anger out. But we know now that police don't suspect that's how it happened. They don't suspect that she
01:14:08
was the last one who died. So, I don't know. I just thought it was interesting because it kind of fits.
01:14:14
Like what he's saying kind of fits with what seems to be the going theory. At least like we said with like among
01:14:19
family and friends. Kohberger is set to be sentenced next week on July 23rd. That's also when the families are going
01:14:27
to have a chance to read their victim impact statements. This will be their chance to be heard. So, our team is
01:14:32
actually going to keep following this story. We're going to have that hearing streamed on the Crime Junkie Jury
01:14:37
YouTube channel as well. So, if you want to follow along with us, make sure you go there. And we are going to try and
01:14:43
bring you more updates as they come. Probably mostly on social, so make sure to follow Crime Junkie podcast on
01:14:48
Instagram. But I mean, if we get something big, we'll put it here in the feed. When we started this, we reached
01:14:53
out to almost every person involved or connected to this case, but nobody wanted to talk before because everyone
01:15:00
thought they were gearing up for a trial or at least that's what I think. But maybe after the sentencing people
01:15:06
will be more open cuz I do have a feeling that people within the departments who spent their days and
01:15:13
weeks and months and years building this case and trying to bring justice, I think they want to
01:15:19
be able to talk. And some may have done so off the record already cuz there was I don't know if you caught it. There was
01:15:25
a Dateline special in May that caused this huge frenzy because they released a bunch of details that they clearly got
01:15:32
from someone who was close to the case. And remember, there was a gag order. So,
01:15:36
the judge on the case was furious. Like they somehow got their hands on Kohberger's internet history and that
01:15:43
was disturbing. I mean, the guy outright searched sociopathic traits in college student. And that was in September
01:15:50
before the murders. And then in the weeks before and after, he was searching terms like passed out, drugged,
01:15:56
sleeping, and forced. Dateline also reported that Kohberger had dozens of photos of girls and women, many who were
01:16:04
in bikinis and they weren't just like random people. Authorities confirmed that they were students from the
01:16:09
University of Idaho and Washington State University. Some of whom apparently knew
01:16:15
the victims. In another internet search in October, he wrote, "Can psychopaths behave prosocially?"
01:16:23
So, these are all things that the prosecution would have had before trial. So, while we won't ever know exactly
01:16:28
what they planned to argue, I think it gives us a good idea of where they were going.
01:16:35
And you know, one of the things I think about too is all of the victims were in like sororities or fraternities. And
01:16:42
when you go back to that Elliot Rodger, he attacked a sorority and like the surrounding areas.
01:16:48
So, did we ever get an idea of what the defense strategy was going to be or do you think
01:16:56
they were hoping that Brian would accept a plea? It just took a while to convince
01:17:00
him. >> I watched some of the pre-trial hearings where we got like a glimpse at their
01:17:05
plan. It was like they needed to take this plea. So, it seems like they were going to say
01:17:13
that Brian Kohberger was out stargazing the night of the murders. That literally explains
01:17:21
nothing. >> Why your phone is off? Maybe like not even that. A A stretch. Certainly doesn't explain
01:17:30
the sheath of your knife Yeah, being there. >> being there. Yeah, the prosecution had a strong case
01:17:38
against him. And I I assume they saw the writing on the wall. And isn't it wild how when death is on the table,
01:17:45
murderers suddenly get so scared? Like it's unbelievable to me. And I know that is what mattered to him because the
01:17:53
defense had even tried several motions to strike the death penalty before his plea deal. With the latest reason being
01:17:59
that Kohberger is a person with autism. Now, it's not clear when he was diagnosed, but they were trying to argue
01:18:04
that his diagnosis exposes him to the risk that he would have been wrongfully convicted and then put to death. Meaning
01:18:11
that his limited like facial expressions and him being stoic, his stare, which had already been dubbed sinister,
01:18:18
they're saying that like all of those are attributes they say he has because he is an autistic person and that could
01:18:24
have affected the jury's perception of his guilt. And that is why they wanted the death
01:18:29
penalty out. That got denied, too. They even tried to argue the IGG stuff. They were like,
01:18:35
"The way the FBI seized the trash outside of his parents' place was a violation of his Fourth Amendment rights
01:18:41
cuz police didn't get a search warrant before doing like any of that." But the court denied that, too, and said that he
01:18:48
had no reasonable expectation of privacy. Yeah, I knew that. I've watched a crime show before.
01:18:56
>> I know. And then the defense also tried to present an alternate suspect defense,
01:19:01
but that got denied, too. Wait, who would they even bring forward? >> They said that there were four other
01:19:07
people who could have done this. I don't know who because again, that got denied
01:19:13
and then the motion got sealed. We just know that these other people apparently knew the victims or interacted with the
01:19:18
victims before the murders. One other like hail Mary thing they tried to do, which I don't even really understand, is
01:19:23
they tried to ban the words bushy eyebrows from being used at trial. Denied again. They argued that police
01:19:31
didn't say anything to a judge about the unidentified samples of DNA found at the
01:19:35
scene when they requested Coburger's arrest warrant in December of 2022. And basically they say that detectives left
01:19:42
it out when the judge was deciding if there was enough probable cause. And they thought authorities were trying
01:19:48
to mislead the judge. So they wanted to throw out the whole indictment altogether. And that didn't work. The
01:19:53
authors of the Idaho 4 book say Bryan Kohberger nearly carried out the perfect crime had he not left the knife sheath
01:20:03
with his DNA on it. Thankfully for the families, he did. And I think that is who we want to remember in all of this.
01:20:11
The victims and their families. Some who wanted their day in court and will never
01:20:16
get it now. Kaylee and Maddie were both college seniors, best friends since grade. And Kaylee was just about to head
01:20:23
off to live in Austin, Texas and start a new job. She was only there that night visiting Maddie to celebrate some of
01:20:29
their last college moments together, not realizing how final those were. Kaylee's
01:20:34
sister told NBC's Today show that she had everything going for her. Xana was a junior studying marketing and her sister
01:20:42
described her to WAPT as light-hearted and someone who always lifted up a room. She often introduced herself as Xana,
01:20:50
like Xanax without the X, and she was very much in love with freshman Ethan Chapin. Ethan was just starting his
01:20:58
college experience, but he and Xana were already planning a life together. He was
01:21:02
inseparable from his triplet siblings, Maisy and Hunter, and they said in the Amazon docuseries that he was their
01:21:10
natural leader. And after his murder, they had to return to the University of Idaho without him. His mom, Stacy, said
01:21:17
that it was only a week before the murders that she had finally felt like her kids were in a great place. Like
01:21:23
it's got to be so hard, right, to like send your kids off for the very first time.
01:21:27
And she's like I she was in just in the place where she's like, I feel good. They're going to become such bright
01:21:31
adults. Now Maddie, she was a senior and a marketing major. She was an only child
01:21:36
and her parents' pride and joy. And her dad, Ben Mogen, spoke at a vigil for the
01:21:41
four victims in 2022 and said that everything Maddie did was such a big deal to him. Her mom, Karen, has even
01:21:47
kept Maddie's room exactly as it was when she died. She said in the documentary that she has
01:21:52
no plans to ever change it. And her family supports the plea deal. And maybe there will be more answers
01:21:59
down the line. But the deal for them is a step towards hope and healing, something that all the victims' families
01:22:07
and friends deserve. It's a shame we know their names this way. But they will be remembered for years,
01:22:13
if not generations to come. And not just for the way in which they died. They're
01:22:18
also being honored by two nonprofits. Ethan's Smile was set up in honor of Ethan.
01:22:24
And Made With Kindness was set up in honor of Kaylee, Maddie, and Xana. Both organizations provide educational
01:22:31
scholarships among other initiatives. And we made donations to both. And we're going to put a link in the show notes to
01:22:37
both of these if you would like to support as well. But you know, there was a University of Idaho student
01:22:44
who I think has been lost to time. Not in this case. I'm talking decades before.
01:22:51
Her name was Kristin David. And in 1981, she was found dismembered, wrapped in newspapers and plastic bags in the Snake
01:23:00
River. Her case has always been associated with four other disappearances and deaths in the area
01:23:05
that's known as the Lewis Clark Valley. Now locals and authorities think there is a serial killer who was at work back
01:23:12
then. And even though they had a suspect, they just couldn't prove it. So a lot of
01:23:17
those victims have been forgotten. But not on our watch. The Idaho 4 case is now solved.
01:23:26
So now I need to direct your attention to another case in the same area. Because here's the scary part. That guy,
01:23:35
the one they think might have been a serial killer back in the '80s, he's still out there.
01:23:41
And most people around him are none the wiser because his name isn't widely known like Bryan Kohberger's.
01:23:48
But all that changes next week. So be sure you don't miss next week's episode. And if you want to listen early and
01:23:56
ad-free, you can actually join our fan club. New episodes release there 3 days early and with zero ads. You can find
01:24:03
all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.
01:24:08
>> And you can follow us on Instagram @crimejunkiepodcast. See you next week for that brand new
01:24:13
episode.