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this episode contains mentions of graphic or sensitive material that may be triggering listener discretion is
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[Music] advised crie hi everyone and welcome back to the show made by the crime junkie Ashley
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flowers for those who are crime junkie AF and I have the most special treat for you this month I have an extra special
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guest with me today that deserves not one but two episodes on L like 40 episodes cuz I could sit and just pick
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her brain for weeks you guys she has had the coolest job she's someone who's worked as a death investigator on some
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of the biggest cases in New York she is regarded as a renowned expert in medical
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legal death investigation spending 23 years at the NYC office of chief medical examiner and as chief of staff and
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director of their forensic Sciences training program she's a speaker she's taught at Medical institutions she is a
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new author which we'll talk about the list goes on and you might even recognize her from the hit docu series
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on Netflix homicide New York please welcome the legendary Barbara butcher oh thank you so much gosh that makes me
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sound like some kind of well it's lovely thank you you are some kind of something
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I am so excited Barbara you and I actually just kind of ran into each other at an event we were at the Hampton
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who done it which is like a true crime meets mystery thriller writer in the Hamptons it was so cool and and I went
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to your talk about your new book and I could have listened to you talk forever and I feel I guess I feel like
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how crime dunkies feel because I just finished listening to your book which is narrated by you so I've like had 10
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hours of you in my ear I feel like we're already best friends but I will make sure we're best friends by the end of
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this oh that's terrific thank you so much thank you well I would love to dive in because I know we only have an hour
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for this segment and I have so many questions first starting off of why had I never heard the term death
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investigator before you and why doesn't every agency have one go um you know because we're not on television that's
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the thing you know when you would you see any of these Law and Order any FBI when there's a dead guy at the scene
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police show up and then a medical examiner shows up and they poke around a little bit and then they leave that is
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so unrealistic now when people think about coroners or medical examiners they think autopsy right because that's a
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forensic pathology just getting the cause of death but how do you know the manner of death like how did it come
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about and that's why we have seen investigators medical legal death investigators some call them coroners we
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go to the scene and we find the context of the death let take like a gunshot wound to the head that's the cause of
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death period but is it a homicide a suicide or an accident and how we find out is we go to the scene we investigate
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everything talk to Witnesses work with the police examine the body at the scene and then relate it to the scene you
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write a report you take your photos back to the forensic pathologist who can now
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do an informed autopsy and is is that something though that every agency has and we don't know or because I did just
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visit NYPD for the first time and it is what you imagine in TV like the the rooms that they have the tech that they
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have have I mean they have an operation unlike a lot of places I've been into like in rural Indiana for example yeah
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so is would it be common that every agency has a death investigator or sure really every medical examiner or
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coroner's office in the country should have an investigator to go to the scenes now do it doesn't mean they do okay
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sometimes they use the local sheriffs or local police to do a death investigation
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but do they have the medical background the scientific background to do that not
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necessarily and some use Funeral Directors now tell me how that makes sense funeral funeral director is
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comfortable with dead folks but are they forensically trained sometimes but not always so
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that's why you can get away with murder in this country no kidding yeah yeah so why don't you talk about that what is
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what is your training what makes a good death investigator um you know I was uh a physician assistant working in surgery
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and um I was bored to [ __ ] to death say [ __ ] [ __ ] you're word of [ __ ] I was I
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was a hospital administrator all these things so then shall I tell you how I got this weird job I would love if you
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told us how you got this weird job because honestly people are lucky I didn't know about it or they wouldn't
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have podcasting I had originally gone to school thinking I was going to be in the
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medical field and I hated it and now I'm here I could I could have found a future
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in this y you oh definitely um so what happened is the background is I was a smart well-educated [ __ ] up I was
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drinking heavily I was partying all the time I had good jobs I lost them and then I got sober I said enough is enough
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and thank you know thank God for that because one of the things you get when you get sober is you get help and we had
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a program in New York City New York State called era Employment Program for recovering alcoholics teach us how to
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work how to get good jobs and they gave me all the test you can imagine Minnesota
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multiphasic uh Myers Briggs preferential blah blah to see what I should be cour my uh counselor came and said all right
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Barbara we got it you should either be a poultry veterinarian or a coroner you're coming
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up with all these jobs that I Anno I know so I said poultry why poultry he said well you know when your patients
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died it didn't get better it was very heartbreaking for you and you're good at Diagnostics but you shouldn't be with
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puppies or kittens things that would break your heart instead chickens they have beady little eyes nobody likes them
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so you know you won't get your heart broken if they die I was like I'll take coroner I'll take coroner so I figured
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you know uh dead people won't bother me much mhm I forgot though they have families yeah and that's hard that's the
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hard part so um my counselor said I want you to call the one person in New York City who has the best job in the world
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so I called Dr Charles Hirsch the chief medical examiner of New York very ballsy
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of me and I said can I come in and learn about your work he said of course I'd be
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pleased and damned if he wasn't the most amazing sweet man on Earth he had me in
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his office and said tell me about yourself made me perfectly at ease and we talked and he told me about the work
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I said oh that's for me what I didn't know is they had an opening for an investigator they said you want the job
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get out of here just like that just like that and I said oh my God I'm G to fly across this desk and kiss this man
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because this is so good I mean this was the dream come true for me I was the kid
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that used to dissect animals to see how they died you know everybody would bring
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me the roadkill posum with some tire tracks on it or dead fish you were either going to be the serial killer or
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find them yes it's a very thin line as you know very thin and um so that's what happened I actually got the
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job and they gave me all the training you know going out on every case for three months going to NYPD for homicide
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school special victims even went to the FBI Academy to learn about serial killers and pattern killers and I got
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the best training in the world oh God I had fun did you feel like you you found your place yeah this was my place in the
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universe the little nerdy kid who loved chemistry and biology and cutting things
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up now had a place and my dad was a cop so I already was comfortable with that whole world wow now mind you coming into
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that job in 199 two okay I was the first woman hired in Manhattan who lasted more
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than 3 months there was one woman before me and she couldn't handle it I didn't know if it was the guy she worked with
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ribbing at her yeah or the work didn't matter I was going to do it and I did now you know as you know things are
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still not equal but back in 90 1992 they were even less equal so one of my first
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cases is on my own I go to this homicide detective comes the door says yeah honey
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how can I help you honey yeah so I said uh hi I'm barar butcher I'm from the medical examiner's office I'm coming
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here to investigate the body and you know do the photos and everything he said don't worry about it honey crime
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scenes got it I said no no I have to I mean this is this is my job yeah that I'm was hired to do so he let me in and
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uh you know I did my work and I thought this is some [ __ ] right here so the next time it happened cuz invariably it
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will right couple weeks later Ganda detective says yeah honey how can I help you I said I tell you what I don't think
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you can help me but maybe I can help you cuz I'm going to go in there I'm going to investigate that decedent and I'm
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going to tell you how that man died when he died where he died and maybe even who
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did it and then someday when you're in court telling the the jury what you learned and going to say where did you
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learn that from you're going to say Barbara butcher all right now get out of my way I imagine nice like hair flip as
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you walk past them I hope I was wearing heels that day and he just went whoa all right and that
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was my entree into the world of the police department don't take any [ __ ] you know own your strength own your
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talent because I did have major investigative talent I must say I was very very thorough very into the job
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and um you know so then it it all just blossomed and blossomed and I just had the best most interesting craziest job
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in the world and of course it was Soul crushing but that came later the soul crushing came later yeah and I actually
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want to get there the soul crushing part but let's keep it upbeat for a second you for all the [ __ ] that you got and
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you actually talk about it a lot in your book what the dead know mhm you you make
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Dr HST sound like an absolute Angel oh yeah I like I am devastated I'll never get to meet this man yeah he sounded
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like one of the good ones oh you know he was the only man I ever really loved he
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was the most humble brilliant intuitive kind courteous gentleman I've ever met in my life he was my mentor my
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father my brother everything to me he taught me not just how to be a good investigator but he taught me ethics and
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and how to be a person in the world you know there was one time a family came to
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me and said uh you know our brother died in the fire and I'd like to know if he suffered and I was like oh damn I said
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excuse me just a moment I'm going to get the records went to Dr hir I said what should I tell them he said the truth
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what else were you going to say I saidwell I thought maybe I'd just kind of make up he said no no no no you don't
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make up anything people can handle the truth they can't handle uncertainty they can't handle not
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knowing but the truth is always much better than what they're imagining so you tell them the truth in a gentle way
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because your word is all you have and if you lie to them even once the tiniest bit everything else you say is now
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suspect so go do it I love that story and I it was actually one that I took notes on it's in chapter 3 if you're
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wondering when you get there um because I think that actually plays so much into
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the case we're going to eventually talk about today is this idea that you can't you can't make up a piece even if it's
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for the right reasons even if you can't make up this piece and then if and then be like oh well that's a lie but
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everything over here that I said I promise that that's the truth like once you lie once it is over it's over and he
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seemed like he was full of all of those kinds of life life lessons and ethical lessons like I'm literally like
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highlighting the book over and over being like Oh like I feel like I'm going to church when I was reading your book a
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little bit every time you got something from Dr hirs I feel like I did too yeah he he told me just simple things you
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know they call them Hersh isms and there's even a little book yeah that they made up of all his sayings um but
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he told me things like um you can never go wrong if you do the right thing ever just do it and and things will be fine
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or um if you think of a thing do it there's no excuse not to do every single part of your job none um and uh and he
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was so damn humble you know every couple of weeks we'd have a new class of cops coming in medical students all these
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people and Dr herish would come out in the hall and see a group of them and just say hi I'm Charles hirs would you
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care to see an autopsy they'd say yeah sure come on take us they take them downstairs they didn't know he was the
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chief medical examiner yeah cuz he didn't act like that was a humble man God I loved him I just I still I I got a
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picture of him on my desk holding some little kittens that we were bottle feeding he's just the most wonderful
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person ever do you think I mean he's obviously one in a million I I feel like I often hear about
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like the worst of the worst I and I've worked with a lot of great people in law enforcement too by the time the cases
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make it to us usually things have gone ay somewhere yeah do you think that he was he was just one in a million in
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everyone or did he stand out so much because of all the other nonsense you saw you know that's a I never thought of
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that but that's a really good point he stood out for his Integrity yeah you know just among all the workers police
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everyone else but you're absolutely right in that I was seeing the absolute worst of humanity yeah the most brutal
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Killers the most evil of the evil and set against that backdrop I was suspicious of everyone except him oh and
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I think you're right that he he stood out even more in that setting um but no matter where he was he
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was the man in the room with all the Integrity so did a lot of people in your role for their for their whole careers
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or was it a role where you saw people getting burnt out quickly oh a lot of burnout a lot of drinking gambling now
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especially 9/11 you know people were acting out left and right so you were there for 9/11 oh God yes yeah
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um you know back then I remember going to Dr H now he he did was wrong sometimes I went to him one day and I
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said Chief you know a lot of the guys are kind of burning out a lot of alcoholism here and you know we're
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having a rough time I think maybe some counseling would be good he said no Barbara we're very very strong people we
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can do this and we do it because we can and so few can he was wrong yeah we were
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a mess still a damn mess you know but uh it is interesting his his point though because a lot of people um I've even had
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the question of like oh does it you're talking about this and and Grant I'm not even seeing it I'm just talking about it
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but it's all day every day does it get to you and I I said I think some people are built to do it yeah in a way that
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other people's AR other people aren't and this is where I think you are right like in that even the people who are
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built to do it no one's meant to do this forever and not have a a another side to
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this or an outlet for it um but I do think that there are certain people who can live in this world and it not affect
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them in the way that it might other people like I've never once had a dream about a case I've never I me I could
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have you looked at autopsy photos crime scene photos and it it just doesn't I'll
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think about it non-stop it's living in my brain but when I close my eyes it's not there you're so lucky you're so I'm
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I'm so haunted by images and um you know early on one of the keys to doing that job is Detachment the ability to drop a
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curtain over your em emotions I remember going into a scene where a whole family was
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killed um they were looking the the uh perpetrators were looking for the 17-year-old son who was a drug dealer
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working for them apparently he took something whatever so they came to his house he wasn't there but his family was
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and I guess they said to the father where's the drugs he said I don't know and they shot him they asked the mother
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and she I don't know then the 12-year-old son not even 12 maybe he was more like nine or 10 but anyway I get
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into the scene and there all the these people dead and there's a three-year-old who's walked through his parents blood
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and there's little tiny Footprints of a three-year-old going through this apartment his little tiny toes in
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Blood and I was kind of in shock but I said all right do your job just do it drop the curtain and one of the crime
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scene guys said to me hey Barbara I'm going to get started with the mother why don't you go in and do the kid I said
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yeah sure H do it and I go in to see the little boy and he's in his bedroom and he's laying face down he had soft Brown
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curls and golden skin and a um and a gunshot wound in his head and a Star Wars backpack he was obviously getting
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ready to go to school and he was murdered and my heart stopped I I think it it just froze in my chest I was in
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shock I couldn't deal with it so I went back out in the living room I saw an officer I said excuse me officer can you
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uh come in here and witness my exam you know just in case he said just in case so what I said well you know the
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evidentiary blah Blas of the Hackle words words words yeah words words yeah I went back in and with him there I was
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able to have an audience for whom I could act competent cool and unaffected couldn't do it on my own but now I had
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an audience I was able to do my examination cut my feelings off and for that moment I was okay am I
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okay now no damn it because I can still see those tow prints I can still see the
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softness of his curly soft hair and uh I wish I'd never seen that you probably you've probably seen a lot
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a real lot a real lot that was I mean and in New York City of all places I think is where you're going to see
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everything yeah it's the most interesting place to die because there's so many different ways to die in New
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York oh you know you can go subway surfing oh my God wait what is subway surfing oh subway surfing is something
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that kids do uh teenagers they'll jump on the back of a Subway as it's leaving the station climb up onto the top of it
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and then surf it they'll ride it through the tunnels what they don't realize is that there are metal bars coming down
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yeah they get knocked off they get beheaded they get maned and then there's elevator surfing
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in the projects you got four elevators right you prop the door open when the when the elevator comes down to you you
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jump onto the roof of it through the propped open doors and you ride the elevator up and down up and down 20
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stories if you're a pro you jump from one elevator to the next and whoever jumps the most times wins I feel like
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there's a scene in Mission Impossible that haunts me where he's like on the elevator yeah no yeah absolutely that's
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how it is it's real how are these kids bored they live in like the most interesting city in the world this is UN
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but they're poor and they have no money and they have no opportunity they live in the projects it's either drug dealer
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or dead things are are rough God for minority poor disenfranchised people what part of the city did you do most of
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your work in um Manhattan was my my beat I did the whole city uh most homicides took place up in the northern part
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Harlem Washington Heights Inwood uh and then Pockets around Midtown you know you
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could kind of see the flavor of a homicide depending on where you were really oh sure if you go to Midtown
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where all the office buildings are and all the white collar jobs you're going to see the kind of homicide where a guy
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gets fired comes in and you know shoots two people and then shoots himself or if
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you go up to Harlem or Washington Heights you're going to see the so-called business homicides it's not
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personal it's business it's drug dealing and Joey shoots Tony and then Joey's crew is happy but Tony's crew is
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going to get revenge and they come back and they kill Joey and two more for good
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luck and uh it goes on and on and on so they're just business homicides were you
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involved for like a long time or is it really just is is most of your work done there at the scene you make a report and
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then you have to go to the next one on to the next absolutely and that's that makes it even harder because there was
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no resolution for me no satisfaction until I went to court okay it takes a year a year and a half to actually get
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in court with a homicide uh um or any other case for that matter and so by the time I was called to testify I didn't
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know what the hell was going on but that was fine because all I could testify to
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with any uh certainty was what I had seen and what I had interpreted so I would talk about you
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know the position of the body and how I knew what the mother was doing while her
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daughter was strangled with the mother's you know scarf or or how I knew when someone's throat was cut where they were
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standing the blood spray your book taught me that there's a difference between a cut and a laceration oh there
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sure is I learn something new every day yeah and most doctors don't even know that in the emergency room they say you
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know patient came in with multipal lacerations I said really what what's the lacerations from a knife no that's a
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cut buddy laceration is when you take like a baseball bat slam it down on the Flesh and the flesh splits over open and
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that tells you the weapon that tells you the number of the force and the number of of of strikes that you know they
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receive the number of blows you can learn acres and encyclopedias worth of wound patterns just by seeing case after
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case I can tell you what somebody was hit with was it a crowbar was it a machete was it a hack machete I could
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even tell you what kind of knife sometimes W double Hilt single blade curd you know all these things so did
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you were you in court for most of your cases or were there any ones that you would go ask about and follow up on or
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did you have to the way you have to detach did you have to just move on to the next one and not think about it I
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had to move on but you know some cases bothered me so much and I just had to know what happened so I would see the
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same detectives over and over and I'd say hey Rob you know what happened with that mope who beat his mother on the
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two3 precinct he oh yeah yeah we got him but you know we had to let him go because uh you know there was nothing
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there to link him this is in the days before DNA was so popular and so in use um and you know I said all right well
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he's out on the street again ain't that something and the cases that went to court you most people plead out yeah
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they plead a deal they go save the taxpayers money and time um the ones I went to were the the bigger ones the
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more controversial um you know things like the Central Park babyfaced butchers two kids 15 years old decide to
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slaughter a man in the park at night and beautiful Central Park our Oasis of peace and serenity in New York but these
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two brats decided H we need something to do tonight and no one still knows why they
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did that H but here's the kicker they did it on Rollerblades wait what yeah can you
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imagine being such a good rollerblader that you could as a small guy as a small girl hack a man to death
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stab him 63 64 times oh my God and while the big man big tall man fights for his
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life and you're on Rollerblades and they never met this man they just were the girl anyone who was walking in the park
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no the girl had known him um from a rehab facility um and you know they all sort
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of hung around the park she had seen him before I guess and that night when she came to meet her friends to sit and
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drink Heinekens out of a six-pack she said uh I just need I I need to stab a [ __ ] tonight something like that
00:26:53
you know something to those effect and uh and then the little guy the little 15-year-old Christopher who liked her
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you know thought she maybe she was my girlfriend he went along with it you know and um and they just did it and
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then rollerbladed out of the park which was interesting for me because as I came
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up to the scene you know I'm on the uh the pathway from 72nd Street that leads into the park and I see my buddy Hal
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Sherman crime scene investigator he's on his hands and knees oh look Barbara look
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at this blood spatter pattern we could tell by the way the blood Drop Falls and then has Force acceleration behind it it
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leads smears like an exclamation point and points to where the person was going so it has directionality and movement
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and uh we can see this little trail of blood just going right out of the park as they skated
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home and we could even tell how quickly they were moving because that affects the shape of the
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blood drop so it was just dripping off their knives as they rollerbladed home isn't that the damnest thing you ever
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heard of and did they end up getting convicted yeah yeah you know how long they served seven years
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each wow can you imagine a 15-year-old evil brutal killer serves seven years that's sure amazing isn't it is
00:28:25
that like and and again when when I like when I I get into something I just like
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I can't let go and I keep following it did you ever like follow what happened to them after they got out sure yeah
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I've tried I've tried because there's something in me that has to know why why even if it's a seemingly dumb reason
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like oh I was bored I was angry anything but just give me some reason this one I
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couldn't figure it out I think that's why why so many people are interested in true crime in general I think that we we
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H like our brains can't handle the not knowing why like everything's got to have some kind of reason and Order and
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place and and when it doesn't make sense we we try to make it make sense and I I
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I agree with that and I would think also that the reason so many women like True
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Crime is because we need to know what we're up against yeah we need to understand how husbands kill their wives
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why why sometimes wives kill their husbands what are the red Flags right what do people do we need to know
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because we need to protect ourselves an educated consumer your best customer when you're on a scene for the
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first time is is there some kind of formula is there certain things that you look for first or is every single scene
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a completely different Beast um yes they're all different but here's my method my procedure First Take
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take my hands off my ears put them over my mouth learn to listen and not talk so
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much nobody needs my theories right now I just need to hear everything then the most important thing is to stand at the
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entrance to the scene matter what it is and take in the totality of it feel it you know smell it um hear it there's so
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much you'll discover and how a person lives often dictates how they die right so if you
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come into a scene and there are scales and bags of white powder you all these kind of things and there's a a guy in
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the corner he's dead no obvious wounds but he's dead well now we got a pretty good idea of how he may have died cuz
00:30:45
we've seen his lifestyle coming into that scene you know you'll either see you'll learn a lot you'll see what kind
00:30:51
of a person lives there um here's a good for instance which I saw a lot in the early days
00:30:58
uh you come into the apartment of a single man and it's very well decorated there's art on the walls he's well
00:31:05
dressed um it's tasteful and it's clean and there's food in the refrigerator and
00:31:12
his face is bashed in hell with a beautiful vase which is now in shatters on the floor what does that mean gay man
00:31:22
Hustler gay men especially older successful gay men you know they'd go out out and pick up um a guy in a bar
00:31:32
and the hustlers they'd always say I'm not gay I just do this for the money and they charge the guy a couple
00:31:40
hundred bucks come home with him but then I've read about this that a funny thing happens they look into the eyes of
00:31:50
their victim of the man they're with and suddenly they see a reflection of themselves and their internalized
00:31:57
homophobia IA kicks in and puts them into a rage so what do they beat in his face why because he's looking at them
00:32:07
and that's where they're seeing themselves so whenever I saw that I thought okay gay man start com in the
00:32:14
bars for the hustlers or ah when I would come into a room and see a pregnant woman beaten to
00:32:23
death or a mother beaten to death and in each case they had something covering their face with the mother I remember
00:32:32
there was a couch cushion over her face she was just beaten to hell with the pregnant woman there was blood spray
00:32:40
blood spatter everywhere on the walls but there was a pillow over her face was that to smother them no they were
00:32:47
already dead the reason was that so their eyes could not look at their son or husband when a man is in a frenzy and
00:32:58
kills his mother because she wouldn't give him drug money is what it turned out to be she finally put her her foot
00:33:03
down he beat her to death but then she's laying on the floor his rage is now dissipated and his mother is laying
00:33:10
there Dead with her eyes open and she's looking at him and can't take it he can't take it he's got to cover her face
00:33:16
so I remember walking into that scene and saying all right she got a son is he a junkie and they're like yeah I said
00:33:23
well there's your guy and that's the feeling you get in a scene there's no substitute for that for that
00:33:31
careful observation something is that something that you can get in pictures years later
00:33:38
mm I sure can I see them all yeah I see every one of those scenes my God I see the color of the
00:33:46
lights I think in the book you might have read about the uh the chapter I call [ __ ] entiments you know our local
00:33:52
doughnut supplier I can still see the man wrapped up under a Christmas tree smothered with his face full of
00:34:03
sweat smothering is such a nasty death you know and uh I see him under This brilliant beautiful Christmas tree with
00:34:11
the presents and the lights it was such a happy tree and there was a tag on his chest MH
00:34:18
that said Maria you're next few minutes later I hear screams in the background I said to the officer
00:34:27
what the hell's that that he said that's Maria can you imagine M the terror that was one of the worst nights
00:34:36
of my life it was just one case after another and it was my birthday so it was really happy birthday Barbara thank you
00:34:44
happy Christmas Eve happy birthday happy death I'm December 19th I'm a birth Miss
00:34:49
baby too oh oh there you go but did you get one present or two just just the one
00:34:55
of course yeah happy happy birthday Merry Christmas yeah it was a birthday present in Christmas rapping and there
00:35:00
no one could ever be bothered to go get the Christmas rapping absolutely and did
00:35:03
you ever have a party no because nobody could come thank you they're all they're
00:35:07
all busy they're all Christmas break no one's in school everyone's got family stuff no no I asked my mom for a party
00:35:15
she said no everybody's busy nobody will come to this day I can't give a party cuz I think nobody will come I think you
00:35:21
can throw a badass Christmas Eve birthday party I just might I'll come I just might thank you I hope so
00:35:28
um no but you know that's how it is so when did when did the job stop giving you life and start taking it from you o
00:35:38
good question you know now early on in my training um I was watching the autopsy of an eight-year-old girl who'd
00:35:45
been raped and smothered and the pathologist doing the the case this woman named Jackie Lee
00:35:52
very fine doctor and I said my God how do you do this every single day how do you take this I I can barely look at
00:35:59
this poor child she said Barbara when you leave here every day I want you to surround yourself with things of beauty
00:36:06
art music food love dance everything it's the only counterbalance to the death Despair and
00:36:16
destruction that you see her every day and I thought yeah well that's some hippie [ __ ] I ain't listening to
00:36:23
that how many years in when you thought it was hippie [ __ ] well that was in the beginning about four years later I
00:36:29
realized oh my God she's right I am living and breathing death all day long I'm becoming unbearable to my partner I
00:36:38
come home and all I want to do is get out of my body I want to just hide from myself CU I don't want to see what I saw
00:36:47
and you were still sober during all of that oh yeah I stayed sober that's unbelievable a miracle right um and so
00:36:55
uh I finally bought this Little Country House I had a dog and two cats and trees
00:37:01
and suddenly I realized this is it this is what I needed nature life but you know then the crimes after about 10
00:37:09
years they were piling up so many tragedies so many children women people just tormented and so much
00:37:19
evil and Dr hir called me and he said barbar you know you know you're not doing too good why don't you take a
00:37:25
little vacation how did he know you weren't doing good um because I wasn't laughing
00:37:30
anymore I like to crack a lot of jokes I like to laugh have a good time but I wasn't laughing and he saw that he saw
00:37:37
my face was gray I didn't look happy so I thought well I don't need any damn vacation but I do need some surgery
00:37:45
so maybe I'll just go out and do that need surgery yeah so I'll do surgery now so uh I took six six weeks off had my
00:37:54
surgery and uh it was good because my partner at the time had a little boy six years old who I loved more than life
00:38:03
and just playing with him having little adventures it it was absolutely life restoring he gave me so
00:38:13
much love and pleasure so then you know it's time to get back to work I was supposed to come
00:38:19
back on September 11th and I called my boss on a Friday I said boss I can't come in I don't feel good I I know I'm
00:38:28
du back in but I just I'm not quite ready he said Barbara you can't do that I've got the schedule all up who am I
00:38:35
going to get to cover you got to commit I said I can't do it David this is my supervisor you were supposed to come
00:38:40
back on September 11th yeah and he actually the day before the 10th oh my God and he said um now you got to do it
00:38:48
I said no I'll tell you what I'll come in Wednesday just give me that long consequently I was not there with
00:38:55
my colleagues and Friends when the planes hit or when the buildings collapsed on them when the
00:39:03
buildings fell on Dr hsh Who thank God was blown by the force of the explosion under a pedestrian
00:39:11
bridge with my buddy Diane another investigator they were tumbled and blown under there and the rubble is raining
00:39:20
down on them steel beams concrete and they're under there and they're just waiting to die
00:39:27
Dian said oh I just thought oh this is my moment of death and Dr H said the same thing he saidou know I just thought
00:39:35
oh well this is how it ends this is I'm going to die now I wasn't upset just curious I don't think I'd be that cool
00:39:43
about it no me either especially with all their injuries I would be in Terror which they both said the same thing it
00:39:51
was strangely peaceful and then they didn't die the rubble stopped coming down they were
00:39:58
protected by this halfway collapsed pedestrian bridge that covered them from the
00:40:04
worst of the rubble and Diane tried to get up but her leg was snapped and you know terribly
00:40:12
broken poking out of the skin Dr Hurst tried to get up and his ankle was torn to shreds he was bleeding his they both
00:40:20
had head injuries and then Through the flames through the smoke through the Dust
00:40:28
came a big fireman and Diane said he looked like an angel of the Lord and he came through and he picked her up and he
00:40:36
carried her out and someone carried Dr hirs out over the rubble over piles and hills of burning buildings and people
00:40:47
and they carried them to the Hudson River threw them on barges to get out and they lived they're damaged I was
00:40:56
did it change the way that they worked after that oh hell yeah you know Diane she was my good buddy we had a
00:41:04
wonderful time we laughed a lot and uh after that well I mean her leg has never been the same she's in pain it's 22
00:41:13
years later and she's still in pain and ah Dr hirs he said I'm fine I'm fine well guess he counseling yeah you don't
00:41:22
I don't need anything but you know what every single one of his ribs were broken
00:41:26
oh my God and he didn't tell anyone breathing must have been Agony for him but he didn't tell anybody and I didn't
00:41:34
find out until he got pneumonia and I went to the hospital with him and they said oh my God all your lung your ribs
00:41:41
were broken what happened nothing nothing I'm okay oh my God yeah Dr hirs yeah exactly exactly like come
00:41:50
on um and you know Diane now works oh she always was a person who she'd go overseas and do medical missions to help
00:42:01
people you know and set up little clinics and work in the with Doctors Without Borders things like that and now
00:42:08
she still does that and she also does more spiritual things you know trying to get I think away from that horror of
00:42:18
death into a peaceful place and I I just uh I love her and I hope that she always
00:42:24
finds that peace so so was there a a moment for you a casee for you or it was just
00:42:31
retirement time and you were like yep I'm not doing a minute more than I have to nope I never would have left never
00:42:38
never never were it not for the politics of New York City ah now after many years as an investigator
00:42:48
and after 911 I became director of Investigations then forensic science then even I was even acting director of
00:42:55
the nna lab and I became chief of staff for the agency and uh running it for Dr Hirsch and um I was a Mayor Bloomberg
00:43:06
kind of girl you know I worked with his people very closely and then a new mayor
00:43:11
come in Bill Blasio I'm gonna shut my mouth right now politics now as he is is as is his
00:43:21
privilege he replaced all the top people in the agencies with his friends was there any reason to get rid
00:43:28
of me nope I wasn't the top top but he did ah and there's a whole political story about that I'll let you read it in
00:43:37
the book but you know and suddenly I'm gone 23 years of incredible experience and knowledge and I mean I
00:43:48
had been overseas I worked the the tsunami in East Asia in 2004 238,000 people killed and I had the privilege of
00:43:56
going there to try to help the London Underground bombings the flight airplane crashes I
00:44:05
knew what I was doing and did you go when you you were still with the medical examiner's office oh wow they sent you
00:44:11
oh yeah yeah the United Nations sent us over to the East Asia we went to Thailand and helped them out that was a
00:44:17
complicated situation but you know um the the worst thing that happened was when I lost my job I lost my identity m
00:44:27
I had allowed it to become who I was if I met you somewhere and you said oh tell
00:44:32
me about yourself I'd say well I'm Barbara butcher the chief of staff New York City medical examiners often blah
00:44:37
blah blah I didn't say oh well I'm a grandmother and I have this and I you know I live here and there and I like to
00:44:43
sew no I don't but you my identity was the job when I lost it I went a little nuts what' you do
00:44:53
what was the nuttiest thing you did go crazy really did wait really oh yeah yeah I'm not going to tell it what
00:45:02
happened cuz it's the end of the book and it's kind of wild but okay I was g i was I wanted
00:45:08
it um no it's you know it's it was really bad it was really bad but the good news is where am I today I'm
00:45:17
sitting here with you we're having a wonderful conversation we're getting to know each other we're having a good time
00:45:23
and I'm happy I have life I have unlimited opportunities I have the whole world and my grandchildren the best
00:45:33
thing in the world and um that is just it's the most incredible luck ever that I came out of it okay and better
00:45:46
than okay I'm having a very good life now what made you want to write a book Co of course I did yeah exactly I know I
00:45:58
have it and and I loved it loved it um so I uh I eventually after I got unraised um I started a little
00:46:10
Consulting business working with families attorneys to reinvestigate cases that were either incomplete or the
00:46:18
people didn't agree with the findings okay and it was a good living very nice I worked with some writers you know
00:46:24
giving them uh forensic lessons and some script people and then Co hit my business died
00:46:33
and I thought you know there's a very good chance I could die in this and I'll never get to tell my stories I'll never
00:46:39
get to tell the stories of the people who I got to know in their deaths I'll never get to represent what they were in
00:46:48
life and I should do that I started writing and writing and writing and I got an agent I was lucky
00:46:57
and uh sold it to Simon and Schuster and the editor took a look at the first draft and said Barbara where are you I
00:47:04
said I'm right here in your office he said no no where are you in this book I see your stories your Mysteries your
00:47:11
cases but I don't see you rewrite it I said oh sh that's hard part oh [ __ ] I got to be vulnerable yeah I got to tell
00:47:20
you what happened how I felt I can't imagine the book without you in it yeah which is wild to think about I'm glad
00:47:27
that you know I got the right editor yeah and um you know they they they told me take the reader into the scene with
00:47:35
you let them smell what you smell and hear what you hear and feel what you feel and that was so hard because
00:47:42
sometimes I'd cry I'd write about something I had seen and I'd remember that feeling
00:47:49
of just despair coming over me like what is the world if there's so much evil mhm
00:47:56
and um I'd cry a little bit and then I'd go back to the keyboard and keep writing
00:48:02
and um and I think it's a much better book for it cuz you're there with me you know and
00:48:10
uh it was hard though it was very hard and I'm so glad I did it because you know in so many ways it was a release of
00:48:20
the past here's what happened here's how I dealt with it and onward was it difficult for you you're such a
00:48:29
good Storyteller oh or did you did it feel like it really did just flow out of you oh it just flowed as far as the
00:48:35
stories yeah I love telling stories I always have and you know I these been percolating in my in my head for years
00:48:44
you know the like the first one the first case in there about the the hanging man the booby trapped hanging
00:48:50
man that always struck me as the damnest thing in the world that I could be electrocuted by suicidal man I'll leave
00:48:58
the details to the reader well it and it is the so fascinating the way that you wo your book because you it is your
00:49:05
story and and you are what takes us from start to finish but as a crime junkie I
00:49:11
mean you deliver on these like individual cases all the way through and the lessons you learned and the
00:49:18
takeaways you had and like I said I mean I walked away being like oh look at me I'm smarter for
00:49:23
this you know I did purposely put in there for for True Crime fans I put in about determining time of death how we
00:49:32
really do it you know it's an art and a science and I put in things about how you get fooled by you know the artifacts
00:49:40
of death my favorite parts are when you [ __ ] up yeah and you like it so when you talk about time of death that you
00:49:45
tell the story about how you you're with this family oh yeah you're with this family and they they ask you and you're
00:49:52
like okay I'm going to go do my thing and you tell them that this man died at a certain time and they're like oh my
00:49:56
God he was talking or with this person an hour later they must have killed him and you're like a [ __ ] I forgot the
00:50:01
number one rule you got to like figure out when they were last spoken to or right what what's the first question
00:50:07
when was he last seen or spoken to alive and then I can tell you what time he died but boy that was a mess up yeah
00:50:14
yeah I've made lots of mistakes but I learned from every single one of them and Dr hir never bitched me out he never
00:50:20
said Barbara why did you do that he'd say Barbara I'm curious the thinking behind that did it work out no okay so
00:50:29
next time yeah we'll think differently yeah you tell a good story of when you went to court oh and messed up and Dr
00:50:36
hirs was being Dr hirs and you're like yeah that the beautiful thing about him was that he I was already feeling bad
00:50:42
enough like I I I was beating myself up I didn't need to be beat up even more but he told me what not to do next time
00:50:48
how can I show up better the next time and I think that is you know for all the reasons we've said he's he seems amazing
00:50:53
and great it's a sign of a really good Mentor leader yeah yeah yep so he yeah he he taught me so much about life and
00:51:02
you know not beating anybody up for mistakes making it a learning experience so what's the next chapter
00:51:09
for you you know the the book is you had it last chapter but what now what's life
00:51:14
look like television television after doing the Dick Wolf series homicide New York on Netflix I
00:51:24
um I had a really good time I'm doing that because I got to see the guys again people I hadn't seen in years and I got
00:51:34
to tell the stories um to an audience who could maybe understand it's such a you know broad audience with Netflix
00:51:42
that maybe they could see a little bit about who we are what we go through why we care so much and why we do what we do
00:51:50
that was a privilege to me so the next thing I'm working on with with Dick Wolf Productions is um a true crime
00:51:59
television show uh we're not quite sure yet of how that's going to look because every
00:52:06
producer's got another idea and they keep weaving them together it's going to happen well God willing don't you hate
00:52:13
to say that it's GNA happen and then my God yeah yeah forget it um so if it happens it'll be wonderful I'll get to
00:52:21
work on in cases like cold cases or missing persons which bothers the hell out of me those are the ones that I
00:52:28
can't get out of my head I know do you realize there's 84,000 active missing persons cases in the FBI right now and
00:52:37
every year we add 6,000 I'm talking long-term missing persons that's unbelievable 10 years without seeing
00:52:44
your son and never knowing what happened to him but you know what here's the [ __ ] of it we can solve them now with
00:52:51
um whole genome sequencing DNA and um the uh in um what do you investigative genetic
00:53:01
genealogy we can we can find out who these people are we've got so many advances what don't we have money money
00:53:08
thank you but if I get this show I'm going to show up in each Town each Police Department with a bag full of
00:53:15
money hell yeah and we're going to use it to get the right experts on this case going to be amazing and we're going to
00:53:21
solve them that's and then I'm going to call you and say Ashley you're never going to believe this case
00:53:28
sign me up I can't wait yeah I'm very excited has anyone talked about optioning your book oh yeah stick wolf
00:53:33
has the option oh yeah they were talking about doing a um like a 10p part streaming series uh bingeable on
00:53:43
you know the book my life what happened the whole thing so that's that's still in the works but you know Hollywood is a
00:53:49
different kind of animal I can't do it again that's why I say like I'm going to stick to podcasting because when I have
00:53:54
an idea I want to be able to make the thing three weeks later put it out to the world and ask people if they like it
00:53:59
yeah yeah now here you have to if someone loves something they have to run it up through 14 layers of management
00:54:05
yeah who's like who are so disconnected from the people who are actually going to watch it exactly I know I know you
00:54:10
know know been there you've been there so the important question who would you want to play you oh gosh you know have
00:54:17
you thought about it yeah I have but everybody's you know it would have to be me back at like say 39 40 years old and
00:54:24
everybody I'd want like eat Falco that kind they're all they're all too old now you know so and I don't know all the
00:54:32
young you know actors and actresses these days so but you know I do know that Dr HST should be played by Jeff
00:54:40
Goldblum oh really yeah I think so I mean he's tall he's handsome in an odd way and I think he has the right dry
00:54:51
humor the ryness that Dr hirs had perfect Dr was a very funny person but in a very dry way one day I went into
00:55:00
him just hanging out seeing how he was doing we're talking I said You Know Chief I'm thinking about getting a
00:55:04
little plastic surgery he said oh Barbara please don't get any better looking I love him I love him isn't that
00:55:13
the sweetest thing freaking Dr H all right well so I have I have picked your brain sufficiently about your career I
00:55:20
am like itching to talk about the case today let's do it so if you're in for it let's
00:55:27
jump there let's do it Barbara before we jump in I'm sure your books are going to
00:55:31
come up in Suzanne's case but one more time you want to tell people the name of your book where they can find it yes
00:55:37
it's called uh what the dead know learning about life is a New York City death investigator by Barbara Butcher
00:55:44
and yes that's my real name I people think mine's not my real name either I know I love that when you had something
00:55:50
in there where you're like we like why do they call you Butcher and you're like that's just the [ __ ] name my name and
00:55:55
uh you can get it anywhere books are sold bookstores Barnes & Nobles uh Independence and Amazon yeah and again
00:56:02
plug for my audio friends Barbra reads her own Audi book so if you've loved Barbara's voice and hearing her again
00:56:09
you get to hang out with her for like 10 hours it's great all right so this isn't
00:56:13
the end for Barbara and I there is another episode a part two to this that you can listen to now and we're going to
00:56:19
dive into the case of Suzanne morphew so please stick around and listen to that next and don't forget to follow the show
00:56:25
and add to your library and don't forget to follow crime junkie we'll have brand
00:56:30
new episodes the last Friday of every month but if you can't wait until then you can head to Crime junkie radio on
00:56:35
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00:56:42
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