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hi crime junkies happy Friday are you surprised to hear from me today well if you haven't heard yet we recently had a
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very special announcement over on siriusxm's app we launched their very first ever True Crime Channel crime
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junkie radio it's your ultimate destination for 24/7 True Crime but that's not all we are also launching a
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brand new show called crime junkie AF where each month I'll be bringing on a special guest to explore the latest
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headline cases with me that I cannot stop thinking about we've actually released our very first episode today
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but I wanted to make sure that you guys didn't miss it and I wanted to make sure
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you knew what to expect every month Hereafter so I'm dropping this first episode in our feed it is an episode
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with special guest who you guys know dilia deambra and her and I get to talk about something that is going on in True
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Crime right now that is one of the most wild cases I have come across in years I'm telling you it is a doozy of a story
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and if you like the show if you like the format please head over to the Sirius XM
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app and follow crime junkie AF so you don't miss this brand new show brand new episodes are going to be dropping at the
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end of every single month and of course I'm not going to leave my crime junkies hanging there's actually a promo code
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Link in the show notes of this episode that will give you 90 days free access to Sirius xm's app so make sure you use
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that code and I'll see you over there in the app but first enjoy this [Music] episode hi everyone I'm Ashley flowers
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and welcome to my new show on SiriusXM made by a crime junkie Ashley flowers for people who are crime junkie AF my
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plan is to come here every month and share with you the cases you have to know about you have to be able to talk
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about beyond the clickbaity headlines but like really get into and I don't want to do that alone it's more than
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just storytelling I want to have conversations uh with other people people who are experts in their field
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journalists uh different forensic experts people who are actually connected to these cases so I don't I
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know I'm probably should do like a bigger intro since it's the first show but I'm just dying to get into the case
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that we're talking about today so uh my first guest if you are a crime junkie you know her you love her Miss dilia DM
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hi I'm so excited to be here this is so awesome I don't like get to do crime dunky stuff as much it's so fun to focus
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on this I am jazzed um for people who don't know you we have been working together for five six years now oh my
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gosh been a minute uh dilia is one of the most tenacious investigative journalists I have ever met in my life
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she hosts the limited series counterclock which is an investigative series you are currently working on
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season well season seven but a season six is about to come out I yeah you know me I'm like it's like making a movie I'm
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like years ahead yeah yeah yeah yeah you also host Park Predators you had a new show come out with us dark Arenas uh so
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you are very well known in the podcast field very well known in the journalism field and you and I because we've known
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each other a long time um I texted you as soon as I asked you to come on I was like we get to play my favorite game
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with with you which is conspiracy or incompetence cuz every time you and I get in a case together I'm like it goes
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all the way to the top and you're always like they probably just don't know what
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they're doing I mean I always want to be on the side of like hey you can't just like say the most like wild thing but at
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the same time like some of these cases and this case that you that we were going to talk about today it is that it
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is the sense of like does it go this far like this so deep and so that's definitely something that I'm like I've
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had way too many runs and before you knew we were coming here did you know this case I did not know it like
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intimately but the headline like the headline like I had remembered so this case happened in January late January
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2022 which for those of you that don't know you and I were having children like literally birthing children at that time
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so postpartum like I remember in those weeks after you know when when my son is sleeping like hours a day right and
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there's nothing to do I remember just kind of like peeking into the real world and me like what's happening and this
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headline was one that stood out probably on Twitter or probably on X or something
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like that and I just remember being like what that seems really like wonky so I didn't have like anything but like truly
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this share headline which is really interesting and the headline is breaking news Karen Reed Karen Reed Karen Reed is
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her name charged with murder in the January 2022 death her boyfriend Boston police officer John
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o' so Karen Reed this woman in Boston is accused of killing her boyfriend John O'Keefe who was a Boston police officer
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and it's interesting when you're talking about the headlines cuz actually one of
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the first things that I read when I was really diving into this was a piece that
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was written by one of John O'Keefe's friends and it was all about the family's perception of this because this
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case has really grown Beyond just what are the facts or that the fact that she's going to trial it has taken on a
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life of its own the conspiracy theories are wild in this case and the thing she said is she said this has become about
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Karen and it is about Karen she's the one who's going to trial but she said John has gotten lost in all of this her
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friend has gotten lost and people are forgetting the real family that is behind this tragedy and they do believe
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that Karen's responsible they think the right person is going to trial and whether I agree with that or not one of
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the things I took away from the article is this woman said everyone reads the headline maybe they read a little bit
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beyond that but very few people actually have read the court documents and can speak to it that way and are forming
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their own opinions and so that's what I wanted to do coming into this is thanks to the Boston Globe they actually have
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been the ones who have been going out requesting so many of these records these Court proceedings these filings
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these motions and they've made all of that available online so everything we're going to talk about today doesn't
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come from a flashy headline it comes directly from these very long very legal court documents but I want to try to put
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all in a way that people understand yeah because the people that know this case the absolute best at this point are the
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ones that have crafted these documents and so really like that is key to a case like this where there's so much going on
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because like you said there is so much that sort of polluted the you know space around this story and this headline so
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these documents are really the people who've been putting their heart and soul into this case for so long so I think
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that's where you get that level of credibility that is good and it's interesting because you get narrative
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piece by piece every every filing every document you get one more thing that you
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can file away like oh this fills in that Gap or oh this contradicts that so I want to give you kind of an overview of
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the case itself or at least what the prosecution originally put forward in their like statement of the case so this
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all started in the very end of January 2022 this is in Canton Massachusetts which is right outside of Boston and at
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the center of our story is John O'Keefe the victim and his girlfriend Karen Reed
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that night they go out to a bar they're drinking they're together they go to another bar called the waterfall and
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that's where they meet up with some of John's acquaintances it seems like he knows one woman there this woman named
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Jennifer mcab and he knows Jennifer's husband Matthew and maybe one or two other people there Karen has only met
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these people like a handful of times everyone's drinking everyone who's there that night even the court documents say
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this in the like initial statement of filing that is happy no one's fighting everyone's having a good time the bars
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start to close down um this is around midnight or everyone decides to go but they're not ready to call it a night one
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of the people there this man named Brian Albert who is also with he's a police officer himself he heads up like a
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pretty big unit and he's like you know what everyone come back to my house it was his son's birthday or was about to
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be his birthday his son had some friends over he's like we can keep it going there so they head out they go back to
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Brian's house and there's some texts exchanged between Jennifer and John where he's like hey where are we going
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he calls to get directions they all head back and Karen and John are seen like walking to her
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car she gets in the driver's seat and presumably they make it because people who were at the house Jennifer talks
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about this her husband Matthew talks about this they see a dark SUV which is what Karen was driving right outside of
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of the front door and she's even Jennifer is even texting John like are you like are you coming in she even says
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Hey pull up right behind me meaning like pull up in the driveway at some point the vehicle moves like one to one and a
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half Cars length up so I mean we're still right in front of the house and I don't know did you get a chance to look
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at Google Maps I did I you know I did of course you did I live on Google Maps I and this is where I uh in the court
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documents there's all this talk about again they break this down 15 different ways 15 different times um about when
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this car moves up and it goes it says you know goes to the you know left of the property or whatever by the flag
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pole and the fire hydrant and for some reason when I'm reading this in black and white I'm imagining that she's going
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like around the side of the house like and not being seen by people and if if you Google the address it's I mean
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everything can be seen from the from the house it's all visible yes and it's not
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it's not a huge property we're talking a regular neighborhood and a regular subdivision so the moves up a little bit
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but then John never comes in the house Karen doesn't go in the house either and the next thing anyone knows is they're
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getting calls from Karen saying that John didn't come home I'm worried that something happened I'm worried that he's
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dead I mean what exactly she said and how distraught she was is a little bit Up For Debate again depending depending
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on who's telling the story and she meets up she goes to meet up with Jennifer mccab they meet up with
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another friend Carrie and the three of them go back to Brian Albert's house to see if they can find him that's the last
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place like in her mind right where I that's where I left him yeah now on top of this it is a blizzard yeah wide out
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wi out which is like the timing of it if you put it in a novel someone would be like I don't know it feels like a little
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a little much yeah it feels like it's just like a scene setting thing yeah like a it had started snowing the night
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before but we are talking full-on blizzard almost white out conditions in the morning so when they're driving up
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Carrie and Jennifer say they don't see anything but almost right away Karen says that she sees him she pulls open
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the van or where the vehicle the door whatever like hops out and goes to him and he is he's laying there in the snow
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they say there's like 6 inches of snow on top of him his phone is underneath him I don't know if they move him or
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what but immediately two of them start performing CP are and one of them calls 911 so 911 comes and there's a lot said
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people are saying that Karen is completely distraught one firefighter even says that she is saying I hit him I hit him
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yeah she's making these declarations that are like whoa what's going on and he's pronounced dead at the hospital
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later um his injuries were mostly to his head and to his forearm so according to
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the autopsy he had several abrasions to his right forearm two swollen black eyes
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a small Cut Above the right eye a cut to the left side of his nose a 2-in laceration on the back right side of his
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head multiple skull fractures that resulted in bleeding of the brain and the autopsy will later note that he has
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um his pancreas is a very dark red which indicates hypothermia which they say contributed to his death so he was
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injured they say he's made incapacity ated and that's why he's laying in the snow but then he he really died from
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hypothermia and then he has that snow on top of him right the snow fall that's Fallen that that covered him so that
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that's another indication that he has been out there for a period of time six inches of snow on top of him yeah like
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and I know snow can fall fast in the Boston area but I think all that right like you said that plus his autopsy
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results showed that you know he was there and you very well could have been still trying to live and that's super
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heartbreaking for sure now nobody comes out of the house from what's been said reported whatever again everyone wants
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to make a lot of that it's also a blizard other neighbors aren't even coming out of the house to to see what's
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going on with all the police there it's freezing Karen is taken to the hospital as well they end up pulling a blood
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sample from her and they're able to determine um it's 9:00 in the morning by the time they pull that blood sample but
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backtracking it they think that her blood alcohol was somewhere between .13 and2 9 at the time she would have been
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dropping him off which was I think about like between 12:40 is 12:45 like that time in the morning so what ends up
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happening pretty quickly like within a couple of days of his body being found is they end up charging Karen with
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manslaughter basically saying that she backed over him because she was drunk and he died of hypothermia and it's her
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fault now do you want talk about why they think that she backed over him I mean there's been like there's been so
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many reasons right but I mean the issues with their relationship and the voicemails and stuff like that well
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that's what the charge will get changed later but when the C there's a a State Trooper so originally Canton PD comes
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Canton PD gets conflicted out of the case because there's all these police officers there so they bring in the
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State Police that state police officer goes to get Karen statement after she's released from the hosital hospital she's
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staying at her parents house and he says he notices that her tail light her passenger side rear tail light is broken
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so that becomes part of their theory is that she backed into him the tail light broke as a result of that and again she
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was drunk this is a tragic accident so she's charged and at the time that she is charged it all happens again really
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fast she meets with her lawyer like while she's there at the court and then the lawyer comes out and says something
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to the Press where like this is a tragic accident like we're going to you know figure this
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out she's devastated whatever and and that's kind of all it was and then I don't know that it would have made
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national headlines if it ended there but it doesn't end there because shortly after her lawyer this tipster had called
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his office and so after he goes and he gives this statement he calls this tipster back and I'm going to read it
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directly it says uh or what they say this tipster said is quote your client is innocent John was beaten up by Brian
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Albert and his nephew they broke his nose and when O'Keefe didn't come to Brian and a federal agent dumped his
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body on the front lawn end quote now it's worth noting where that was reported it said that an attorney for
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the man that this like the man that was identified says that this did not happen
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the tipster lawyer yeah so a law a journalist did track down the like the actual tipster and theer lawyer is like
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nope didn't say that so is it is it right so and again right now all it is is just this like kind of
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wild hairbrained tip but it kind of starts working its way into the back of everyone's mind and what Karen talks
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about on she did an interview with Nightline is that she is up one night she starts just going on Facebook
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because she can't even figure out to me the big question is like why is this even happening like why and she starts
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finding pictures of the police who are investigating the case connected to the people who were at the house that night
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doesn't again what's the motive what's the why I don't know but something feels fishy and is this some kind of cover up
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and so this is when things really start to explode a little bit and shortly after all of this too so what was a
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manslaughter charge they end up changing they end up coming and recharging her with second degree murder
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and leaving the scene of an accident which is you know it's kind of like okay duh but it is an extra charge now I
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didn't really understand why go out you already had her on manslaughter you're saying she was drunk
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you're saying this would but like so then why why do that why go to that extra step like I don't get it well and
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I think something that sort of would make that make sense is if they continue to investigate and they discover issues
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in the relationship which they did preceding the event and I think in this case as they continued to work the
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investigation whatever law enforcement officials were working the investigation whether they were connected to some of
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the witnesses or not they began to discover hey was this truly an accident and they started to ask the question of
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what preceded these events and I think that's what led them to go hey I think that maybe we can sell that more to a
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jury right like a second degree they're having potential issues there's this moment of issue and and and passion and
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passion and Heat of the Moment kind of thing that's a lot easier to sell to 12 strangers right like when you're going
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to like take someone to court and like try and get you know a solid conviction but if you just go with manslaughter of
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like oh this is a tragic accident like I I'm thinking of where they were looking
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ahead to the future of a court proceeding I get that but I this is like the such the problem I have with the
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legal system it's like it's not I want to say it's not about winning it's about what happened and if what if what
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happened was an accident was drunk driving charge her with that and listen to be fair they do fine stuff right
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there there is a reason that they think that there was a motive so they say the prosecution says
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that they in looking at John O'Keefe the victim's phone they find a series of text messages leading up to his death
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leading up to the night at waterfall the defendant and O'Keefe exchanged several
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text messages about their strained relationship in the voicemails that the defendant left O'Keefe on January 29th
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2022 and that is the the morning the early morning hours when he's found she stated you are using me right now you
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are another girl you are a loser yourself she called him a pervert and she yelled at him John I hate
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you that right there the discovery of that and when they discovered that to me would feed into potentially why they
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changed that charge like I think it was a factor I don't think it was necessarily the entire Factor but that
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right there says something and I think that that they're they're building out this story that there were clearly
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problems in their relationship and they get this from really John's niece so and
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again to make sure John doesn't get lost in all of this John had actually taken in his niece and nephew his sister had
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died and then his sister's husband died shortly after that tragic yeah he the single man he was the one to take them
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in and so they obviously Liv with him Karen didn't live with them but she stayed the night at their house all the
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time and there was a story that was told or a couple especially by the niece and
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the nephew they say you know they were fighting a lot in the time leading up to it the niece had said you know there's
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this incident where basically John was like I I think it's this isn't working out like this is getting unhealthy but
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Karen was really against ending the relationship she didn't want to leave his house there also is this story about
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them vacationing in Aruba on for like New Year's Eve which would have been again we're talking less than a month
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fire and an incident where he had gone out Karen said he had gone out drinking he doesn't come home till 3:00 in the
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morning she's you know bringing in the new year with with his niece and nephew and she comes out of the elevator and
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he's hugging someone she thinks maybe kissing someone they everyone says there was no kiss but it's it it was enough
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that it was an incident everyone talks about yeah I think it just like whatever that story is again the more law
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enforcement learns of things like that the more they're going let's widen out the scope of this very uh specific
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incident that we think we're looking at let's widen now and I think all those things really contribute to that and
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that's what makes it too like just very personal I think that's why people get interested in this kind of story right
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because a lot of people like everyone has relationships everyone has drama in their life but that's what kind of
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perpetuates I think too some of that interest is like well what about this and what about that and that's it's wild
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but what I what I have a hard time piecing together is how do you everyone says they were getting along that night
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or at least not fighting that night everyone says everything was good that night and here you know what is Karen's
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memory I don't know because I will say again first we get this story and it might have been her lawyer saying this
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was an accident she doesn't remember but we have people who were initially with her the two women in the car saying
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something to the effect of of of her giving them a statement I don't even remember going to Brian's like I last
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thing I remember was being at the waterfall like I don't remember last night then she has a story a a memory so
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oh and in the first story by the way she had didn't plan to go to Brian's even or
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I guess the second story when she remembered that they were going to go there I don't know yeah it was like I
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was just going to drop him off and leave anyway because I was having stomach issues right I'm going to drop him off
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I'm going to leave I'm having stomach issues and then the second time around it's her story is and this is what she
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told Nightline was I didn't know if we were invited I didn't actually again we don't know Brian Albert personally I
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didn't hear him invite me or invite John so we're going there but I want to just
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like walk into the house like of someone I don't know so understandable yeah I get it so she said I told John like go
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in and make sure it's cool for us to be here so she said she's waiting in the car and waiting in the car and he's not
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coming and not coming and so then she finally gets pissed and is like oh he just ditched me and forgot that I'm
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sitting here waiting for him and so she leaves do I love that the story changed absolutely not do I understand they're
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already having problems can you picture her leaving that voicemail when she thinks he ditched her while she's
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waiting outside for him yeah those connections could totally be made and I want to go back and look at the
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situation where it is John texting Jennifer mccab to coordinate the meeting up at Brian Albert's house like after
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the bar I think some people on that face would go well wait a minute like if Karen and had these s of issues about
00:24:00
these things she's claiming in this voicemail like John texting you know another woman even in Friendly like Hey
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we're all having a party come back to my house like you could see where that might escalate right in a in a in a
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drunken state where it's like you went into this house you didn't come back you were texting this other person like this
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other woman I think that like right to your point like that could all feed into I'm going to make these nasty voicemails
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and then out and you're you're drunk we know you nothing is better with alcohol yeah no and late at night so so she
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claims that she left that she was trying to text and call him she ends up falling
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asleep on the couch and then it's 4:30 in the morning when she again wakes up realizes he's not there she goes to get
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his niece to call Jennifer McCabe and then you know everything else is pretty much the
00:24:50
same all right so I I we are limit on time we have an hour I could keep going and going in like the details of even
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though text messages and those times of the text messages because I think that becomes important later so maybe we'll
00:25:02
hit it but I want to go back to the physical evidence yet cuz we're still laying the scene to even get to the
00:25:08
conspiracy stuff later so at the scene when we talk about physical evidence again what do they have to even charge
00:25:18
Karen so where JN was found they said that they found pieces of glass which their story or or the theory is he is
00:25:30
actually seen on video surveillance when they leave the waterfall whatever time that was he actually takes a short clear
00:25:37
glass out with him he's seen on video so they're thinking that's the glass that he was holding I think some of that
00:25:43
glass is also found in her bumper they say they also say that they find some pieces of red plastic and white plastic
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whatever they think like oh this could be tail light pieces similar similar is there at the scene and some I laugh this
00:26:02
they found some patches of blood spots of blood here's where things get wild so the glass and the blood is collected
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first but deia I sent you a picture of how they collected the blood I actually didn't even know what I was looking at
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at first when you sent it to me but yes the picture is a like brown Grocery Store bag and there's six red Solo cups
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in the bottom that all have what appear to be little clumps of snow in them and then you told
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me what is in the clumps of snow that's the blood or and in in the Solo Cup so what they yeah these officers on the
00:26:44
scene were and granted again it's a blizzard so you're you're in a Race Against Time I that's the only but who
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Solo cups are these they're not the cups I think they're a neighbors and I hope they're not used but what yeah so what
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world does that make sense it doesn't to me but they collect the blood evidence in Solo cups and that's that's all that
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they initially collect right and again so his phone's underneath him they obviously collect that as well this is
00:27:13
where things start to get a little fishy in my mind because they go back again multiple time and it's even that same
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day or whatever but there is a point where they take a snow blower and they're blowing the top layer of snow
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off looking for more things and the first time they found him by the way he's missing one of his shoes so
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this the second time that they go back they find his other shoe and that's when they start finding tail light pieces why
00:27:40
those red tail light pieces didn't stick out before is a big question to me because you said that the massachusett
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state police investigator like early on noted that the tail light was broken so you would think that going back in
00:27:55
additional searches that would be like something you're actually looking for if you have this theory of is this a hit
00:28:01
and run yeah but you you would also think that the first time that when you removed John's body and you found you
00:28:06
found pieces of clear glass yeah on the ground in the snow you didn't find pieces of red plastic yeah I don't I
00:28:13
that's a hard thing to wrap your mind around but I also just know and you know as well that whenever additional
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evidence is found on subsequent searches that is so par for the course like in terms of just happens all the time all
00:28:28
it does and I mean they went and again there was so much snow that day they went back multiple times and it's almost
00:28:35
it's one of those things where it's like they keep finding more and more and more
00:28:38
it said that some of Jon's DNA was on a piece of tail they don't they don't get specific though we don't have again this
00:28:46
hasn't gone to trial yet so I don't have a lot of the details how much tail light
00:28:49
what piece of the tail light I haven't seen anything that said that any of the tail light was found on him on his
00:28:55
clothing anything like that which you pointed out yeah that would to me if you have these little shards and pieces that
00:29:01
are recognizable enough in snow you would think that would be in his or on his clothing um the fact that he is on
00:29:10
the ground and had been there a while that stuff probably wouldn't have moved so I that's what I was really curious
00:29:14
about so they obviously took her car they processed her car this happens on February 1st after they take like an
00:29:22
initial the massachusett state police crime people or whatever they do the initial pass at her car they don't spot
00:29:29
this but then they bring in someone they bring in a forensic scientist named marvine hartnet and she probably works
00:29:34
like for them again but she comes in and she's the one who ends up finding this hair it's it's referred to as hair so
00:29:41
singular hair as far as I can tell on Karen's car and this is is like what they keep pointing to on the bumper yeah
00:29:51
that they're like oh like again we don't maybe we don't have the tail light on him we don't like but they find this
00:29:57
apparent hair on the rear passenger side quarter panel so all they have so they had glass in her bumper which was like
00:30:06
again that's not that's not John on her bumper right but then they get this apparent hair and they're like this is
00:30:13
this is the proof that like he his head made contact with her car now this hair is talked about non stop and it's this
00:30:23
case is getting litigated before it goes to trial I mean in the media not non stop these motions are becoming public
00:30:30
they're fighting about these in in hearings and this hair is something that they keep pointing to over and over
00:30:35
again and at some point the defense is even like well we want to do our own testing but then the state won't release
00:30:41
it to them and it becomes this big point of contention well fast forward their Massachusetts State Police their lab it
00:30:51
takes them a year to even examine it and I don't know if it just didn't become important then or I mean over this year
00:30:56
is when things really the conspiracy theories really started to tick up I don't know but over a year whatever this
00:31:02
next year they look at the hair the Massachusetts state lab says that there is no human DNA detected when they
00:31:10
finally examine it which what which is yeah this is your if this is one of your pieces of key evidence like that's not
00:31:16
even a human hair yeah so the prosecution what they do that's obviously not the results they want so
00:31:22
they want a contract with an outside private lab Bodie the defense is like okay before before you do that we want
00:31:29
to like examine it you might use up everything in testing that ends up getting denied and but if this was their
00:31:35
only piece of putting JN on the car what do you have nothing so if we're still talking about JN his injuries again
00:31:44
how's the hair on the bumper the other thing I want to talk about I it's really hard for me to understand how his
00:31:50
injuries come from being run over again if you want to say it's an accident then
00:31:55
she's going a few miles an hour back up whatever if you want to say it was intentional second deegree murder maybe
00:32:03
she was going a little faster but nobody saw that more than anything he's a tall
00:32:09
guy how is her tail light meeting his head he the only injuries he has really below his neck are his forearm is all
00:32:18
cut uph the people who think Karen Reed is innocent and Being Framed say it looks like a dog scratched or bit his
00:32:25
arm what everyone kind of conveniently leaves out on Karen side he's got these bruises on the backsides of both of his
00:32:33
hands that they say look like defensive wounds so explain it to me deia I know I
00:32:37
can't and and I get the whole like okay sequence of events right but from what I
00:32:44
know from talking to a lot of forensic Pathologists when people have those impact and like heavy pressure right
00:32:51
like getting run over by a car tire or you know getting sideswiped it doesn't necessarily look how we like think it
00:32:58
should look which is that like that blunt force trauma injury but I mean yeah those scratches on the right
00:33:03
forearm specifically are really significant to me and I think even in some of the images they really stand out
00:33:10
but like the dog bite marks that is introduced by the defense and that really leads down and supports the path
00:33:18
and the theory of was it someone at that hom dog that did that and that brings a
00:33:25
lot of questions in so yeah the injuries are to wrap your head around but there are some things that like a logical
00:33:31
person could say maybe in my mind like for his injuries you had brought up something to me the other day you're
00:33:38
like what if he got like stuck in like or or he was like getting out of the car and then fell yeah so my thought is if
00:33:44
he's getting out of the passenger side and stepping out that passenger side door is going to be open the the left
00:33:51
side of his body is going to be more in the car right and if he is standing in that space or getting out and the car
00:33:57
begins to go in reverse he's going to fall down more likely on his right side and he's going to get run over and
00:34:04
potentially dragged under that tire you're talking about snow car tires don't just like peel out in the snow
00:34:10
they it they behave differently and so I'm wondering if he got dragged for a little bit and then that pressure of
00:34:17
being it sounds terrible compressed like but that doesn't add up to me because he's not found in the street he's found
00:34:23
in the in the yard yeah so that's another thing it's like okay where again the sequence of events where's the car
00:34:29
oriented to him if in fact this is how this happened yeah there's a lot of questions and it makes me like want to
00:34:36
like the one thing that would convince me without a doubt would be video of some sort of things but in this case the
00:34:44
video you brought that up and I was like wait there's a video and you're like well there is and there
00:34:49
is so we can we'll start to get into a little bit of this conspiracy because the video that we have the video that
00:34:58
has been introduced is video from johon O'Keefe's house he's got a ring camera and he had two cameras one was at his
00:35:06
front door one was over his driveway and we've got video from over his driveway of Karen Reed so she wakes up at 4:30
00:35:14
she's calling around at around 507508 she backs out of the driveway and this is her she's on her way to go to
00:35:21
Jennifer mccab they're going to go look for John she backs out and here's where things get really interesting is because
00:35:28
John's car is in the driveway she was in the garage she backs out and wouldn't you know it that passenger side rear
00:35:36
tail light comes awfully stinking close if not potentially hits John's car we will have this video in the
00:35:47
source material you like people have analyzed this to death but she backs up and people will say that you can see her
00:35:56
and I can kind of see it you can kind of to see her car just shake just ever so slightly back and forth when it
00:36:01
potentially makes contact so when she like pulls forward and drives away that's when you can see on the camera
00:36:08
her tail light is broken now the prosecution specifically lays out in their statements like they even address
00:36:15
it they're like she almost comes close to but does not and then you see her tail light's broken because she broke it
00:36:19
when she ran over John the defense says no that's when her tail light was broken
00:36:26
now it would be really easy to solve this let's just see when she came home that night if it's
00:36:35
broken but that video doesn't exist and we don't know why it doesn't exist so the prosecution the cops have kind of
00:36:44
alluded to oh well you know she had access to his ring system on her phone and on the app maybe she deleted it I
00:36:52
could say the same thing that you know anyone who had access to John's phone I know it was in police custody could have
00:36:57
deleted it because they basically said they have all these incidents between they about 15 incidents between 6:00
00:37:02
p.m. that night and then 6:00 a.m. but they do not have her coming home that's super frustrating because I'm like it
00:37:11
completely destroys the timeline of the prosecution if her tail light is not broken when she gets home if there could
00:37:18
be proof of that it destroys the timeline right if it is broken it doesn't just destroy the timeline it
00:37:25
destroys their whole Theory yeah it destroys the whole Theory but then I'm also thinking we go back to this it was
00:37:29
a blizzard I know out and I know cuz I have the same system at my home that like if there's like a spiderweb or like
00:37:37
a lot of condensation or Frost or whatever that that technology doesn't always capture every single motion event
00:37:46
that's happening it's super unfortunate that it doesn't capture this one thing but to your point I want to know like in
00:37:54
that app like who can delete stuff is there like a meta data trail for that because that right there should be able
00:38:00
to tell you like which user of the app did it just not register it yeah or there's got there's got to be something
00:38:06
yeah this is 2024 like how are we not or 2022 when this is happening well yeah but come on we've got to be able to look
00:38:12
at that and well apparently they're using new technology as it pops up because if you want to pop to another
00:38:18
big thing that people who believe in a conspiracy theory point to is it goes back to Tech
00:38:25
so there ised l a search on Jennifer McCabe's phone at 2:27 in the morning 2:27 is hours before Karen is supposed
00:38:38
to have called her and said John didn't come home let's go look for him at 2:27 there is a search on her phone that
00:38:46
says quote hos long to die in cold they believe that it was supposed to be how long to die in
00:38:55
cold why is Jennifer mccab searching that at 227 well why is her phone searching
00:39:04
that such such a tech technicality yes why is her phone searching that right this alarming because we know now with
00:39:13
the evidence in John's autopsy that there is this factor that he died out in the snow and the cold uh
00:39:21
I don't love it I think again for people that support Karen Reed's side of things
00:39:26
it would be indicative there are people at that home who are in his company that
00:39:31
are trying to figure out what to do with him which is again super disturbing but
00:39:37
again I go back to what I said about the driveway footage like what is the metadata situation and what can
00:39:43
investigator DET this where this is where it gets really messy because originally when they when the defense
00:39:50
was given everyone's phone records this search wasn't even included it comes out comes out later
00:39:59
and they what the prosecution is saying is no they're like Karen asked Jennifer like as they're out there plee like
00:40:09
search see how long it takes like I'm is he dying is he already dead and there are searches at 623 and 624 for that as
00:40:17
well now granted the 911 call is 604 or something like that so it's like 20 minutes the timing doesn't totally
00:40:23
add up yeah but they're like no it was just there was a web page that was opened at 227 and then if you use that
00:40:30
web page they had all these excuses for it and okay fine here's the here's the big thing
00:40:36
that comes in so it comes out later that another software basically was used to do this phone extraction and that
00:40:46
software supposedly and it's one done by the feds says that it was at 227 like we
00:40:52
can stop talking about it that's what the defense search was made at 2:27 a.m. MH and I don't know how you explain that
00:41:00
I don't think you can explain it I'll be very interested to see how it's explained in court at trial I think
00:41:05
that's absolutely something a jury is going to if we're so hung up on it that's what 12 strangers are going to go
00:41:11
let me find the answer to that question there's some other phone data that's really interesting too so they he had an
00:41:18
iPhone and Jennifer McCabe had an iPhone and they've got the Apple Health Data you know they're always being laed
00:41:24
always being tracked and it says that John took some steps around the time that he would have if Karen story is
00:41:35
true he would have been going into the house and the defense says look that's proof that he left the car and and
00:41:43
didn't just get run over right there he wouldn't have done that he he climbed three flights of stairs he was in that
00:41:49
house but the prosecution says no It also says that he's taking steps after he's found dead at 6:00 a.m.
00:41:58
now I say of course it shows that it's taking it doesn't know like John is taking steps it's the phone is moving
00:42:05
the phone had got collected it's getting moved from Department to Department as they're you know figuring out what to do
00:42:11
with it so the to me him moving around after he's dead that's not of course that's not him like like it seems like a
00:42:17
weird thing to even point out they also the Health Data also says that Jennifer McCabe is up all night like pacing she
00:42:27
doesn't go to bed she says she's woken up by a call from Karen that she can't find John but Apple Health Data says no
00:42:33
ma'am yeah and that okay that's not the best look for her but I go back to what I said it's her phone that's pacing
00:42:42
around so I'm always on the side of devices are devices and they are in the hands of whoever is holding and it does
00:42:51
not mean that that is the owner so I get not as hung up on that the search is what's to me of like great interest
00:42:59
someone is plugging that search in and they can find out what time and where you can explain the device thing to me I
00:43:04
guess for Jennifer but everyone has agreed Jon's phone is found under his body so I don't know how I the activity
00:43:12
before he dies yeah is hard that's hard to wrap my head around as well is he in the home is he walking around the yard
00:43:19
is he getting in and out of a vehicle yeah that's like that's really hard to to face so this is all the stuff that
00:43:26
that they're fighting about right there's you know the defense is like there's no way his injuries were made
00:43:31
this way the tail light they're going so far as to accuse the lead investigator of planting the evidence they say that
00:43:37
he I don't know where he got tail light but he planted the evidence they're making a lot of accusations he's
00:43:43
covering up for them that sound wild now it all sounds wild until it comes out that the federal
00:43:55
government is is conducting an investigation simultaneously now what they're conducting an investigation
00:44:05
into is not totally confirmed but we know that they're calling all of the same Witnesses so the defense at one
00:44:14
point gets a like Rumblings of this because the thing I'm not going into that's like it is the honestly a huge
00:44:20
part of this case is one of the biggest supporters of Karen Reed is this online blogger YouTuber who was by the named
00:44:27
turtle boy and there has been a ton of controversy around him he's been accused of harassing Witnesses like there's a
00:44:36
there's a lot of stuff there but so I assume that it's you know through all of that the defense gets some kind of tip
00:44:43
that hey your Witnesses are being there's been a grand jury that indicted Karen but there is another grand jury
00:44:49
that's happening that they're getting called for and it's you know it's not one of them it's all of them and it
00:44:56
seems like they're investigating the same thing you are simultaneously which is really out of the norm to have a
00:45:03
federal investigation happening simultaneously in tandem with a state investigation into a second degree
00:45:11
formally manslaughter charge that right there raises the profile for me and everything that people are saying this
00:45:19
is unprecedented yeah usually they let things play out and if there's something to look into if if it's prosecutorial
00:45:26
misc conduct if it is something I don't even think they would deal necessarily because there's also at the same time
00:45:32
there ends up being an internal investigation into Michael Proctor who's the lead investigator for how he handled
00:45:39
it and did he have a conflict of interest and did he lie about that conflict because he knew a lot of the
00:45:44
witnesses at Brian Albert's house yeah but but but again that's being handled by Internal Affairs what is the federal
00:45:50
government investigating so when the defense starts hearing this they they basically go to the prosecution they're
00:45:55
like what is going on here like if you're calling these witness something is happening that we haven't gotten in
00:46:00
Discovery and they do basically notice a discovery and the da responds and it's like listen we have no idea what's going
00:46:09
on we don't know about a federal investigation so there's nothing for us to give you well so that's in December
00:46:16
of 2023 cut to Fox 25 had actually been working on a public records request which they succeeded in getting and you
00:46:25
know I don't know exactly like the the days but like as they're getting this the da is like oh we found some things
00:46:30
that we would like to give you and they are Communications from back in May so they asked for this in December months
00:46:38
before there are email Communications from the District Attorney's Office the Commonwealth to the United States
00:46:44
attorney's office where the United States attorney's office in May confirms yeah we're doing an investigation so
00:46:51
they knew we're subpoenaing your witness and you know if you need to disclose oh
00:46:55
and like the emails are also just like shady themselves because the da is like you know if you do anything we're going
00:47:01
to have to share it which is basically like don't mess it up to share it with the defense yeah and it's it's been said
00:47:09
that there was like some shady stuff even on the other side and that the state's attorney is like well you don't
00:47:13
have to share what you don't have back and forth back the point is that they knew this was going on and all of that
00:47:19
gets disclosed so there is this federal investigation and in doing so the federal investigation they didn't have
00:47:27
to but they end up releasing like 3,000 pages of their investigation to the defense and to the prosecution part of
00:47:35
what they've gotten and I've you know inferred this just from some of the filings is testimony from their grand
00:47:43
jury hearings where people are main people from their case are being asked about again it's clearly about John
00:47:51
O'Keefe's death or the investigation into it and this is how we learn that Michael Proctor the lead investig Ator
00:47:57
for sure had a conflict of interest and not only did he have a conflict of interest they went out of their way to
00:48:05
make people believe he didn't I mean there was did you see the video from the da yeah oh yeah that's a very bold very
00:48:13
bold thing for a district attorney to do because there there were Rumblings right
00:48:17
even early on like I said very early on Karen's like trying to figure out who's connected to who yeah and the da I mean
00:48:24
I like it was firm he was like there is no propriety basically there like he has
00:48:28
no conflict of interest this is all some wild fishing Expedition but you know what perpetuates that though when you
00:48:36
keep a secret from the defense that a federal investigation is going on that could potentially result in exculpatory
00:48:42
information for your client so if the defense is already going down this what the prosecution is saying a conspiracy
00:48:47
theory you're perpetuating that District attorne by hiding and not being forthright so like if that's what you're
00:48:56
saying then part of the blame could be on you in your office like did the da know like was Michael hiding for
00:49:01
everyone and it's I mean it's very clear so 10 days before John dies Michael Proctor the lead investigator is texting
00:49:08
with Julie Albert who is related to Brian Albert whose house it was about babysitting his child that is someone
00:49:15
you know yeah no doubt you trust with your kid more concerning is that two days after John died there are text
00:49:24
messages between Michael Proctor and Michael Proctor's wife and Michael Proctor's wife is relaying a message it
00:49:30
says quote just saw Julie they're talking about Julie Albert and Julie said when all this is over she wants to
00:49:37
give you dot dot dot a thank you gift I don't know if the dot dot dot is leaving
00:49:42
out things I don't know if it was a true like dot dot dot and apparently he responded and said that the gift should
00:49:49
be sent to his wife and not him I don't love communication like that because right you can read into it 10 different
00:49:56
ways but I think what that says in the big picture is you're too close for comfort and because of that again you
00:50:05
could be perpetuating a lot of questions and nendos and theories that ultimately
00:50:12
bring your integrity into question and in a case that that is at the core of it at this point that's super problematic
00:50:19
Julie Albert actually comes into this a little bit more too because we haven't really heard much about her was she
00:50:25
there that night was her her husband is her named Chris Albert were they there that night were they not there that
00:50:30
night nobody really seems to agree which is really strange there was some grand jury testimony they're both at the
00:50:38
waterfall we know that before Julie say she would goes home early with a headache Chris walked home when everyone
00:50:45
left the bar the defense says that there is a February 21st report memorializing
00:50:51
a statement that the officer or whatever took from them back on the 10th so this
00:50:55
is like memory of a statement that happened you know days ago but it says that they did go back to Brian Albert's
00:51:03
after so the defense is like you didn't even point out this inconsistency in the
00:51:08
original grand jury that indicted her were they were there were they not there so so the only Theory when I talk about
00:51:13
motive because again that's like the what the heck happened John barely knew these people the only Theory I've seen
00:51:19
anyone come up with is that he got into it with Brian's nephew again that's the original tipster said something happened
00:51:26
with Brian and his nephew and so for for there to be a lot of questions was Chris
00:51:31
there was Chris not there for his wife to be the one like we want to give you a gift when all of this is over very
00:51:37
suspicious well I think the question is is if you're looking at a in the moment something happened in that house the
00:51:44
question naturally is okay who had the beef who had the beef with Jon O'Keefe even if it was in the momentary Split
00:51:52
Second you know you spilled a drink on me or something or is it something that preceded it where there's this kind of
00:51:57
growing uh issue and I think that's where we need to get to the bottom of who was in the house when did they get
00:52:05
there when did they leave all of that surrounding the timeline of when we know John Dies it's it's hard what they had
00:52:12
always said is that everyone stayed for about an hour and then people left or went to bed this is also what's strange
00:52:20
to me because you have people leaving the house at say 1 1:30 like around that that time nobody sees John laying in the
00:52:30
yard and this is not a big property I like I can't wrap my head around it yeah how can you not see that unless you're
00:52:37
just blackout which we know some of these Witnesses were not some were drunk some were not blackout but then yeah how
00:52:44
do you not see someone lying there because we know at 1 and even 132 he's not covered in those six inches of snow
00:52:52
yet so my question is are there external Witnesses like people that were driving
00:52:57
on that street or working the blizzard conditions right there's supposedly a snowplow driver who was plowing the
00:53:04
street at 2:30 who according to the defense is willing to testify that he did not see Jon out in the yard at 2:30
00:53:11
in the morning I mean that's a good witness for sure but I again my mind goes to like
00:53:17
video can we strap some video cameras on these snow plows for the future so that
00:53:21
they can start just more ring cameras I'm shocked that there's nothing and maybe there there's something that will
00:53:27
come out in trial but I'm shocked that none of the neighbors have anything that is helping solve that or like piece that
00:53:35
together now you talked about who is in the house who's not in the house what do
00:53:39
these there are witnesses driving by but I think there that's what's so wowed me
00:53:43
there are a lot of Witnesses in that house there are a lot of people I said this early on who talk about seeing
00:53:50
Ken's car one of the people in the house was another like person- in-law enforcement whose name is also Brian and
00:53:58
that's Brian Higgins and there's some strange communication so again everyone says that they they leave after an hour
00:54:06
or so everyone's asleep but then you again you have weird movements you have a phone
00:54:12
moving there's also some calls reportedly between Brian Albert and Brian Higgins in those early morning
00:54:20
hours the federal probe revealed that Brian Albert called him after 2: a.m. and then Higgins called Brian Albert
00:54:27
back both men say that these were butt dials even though they also say that they were sleeping and they're were
00:54:34
supposed to be together at the same house earlier in the night well earlier in the night right right yeah but they'
00:54:39
like left at this point and then they're calling each other so it doesn't totally
00:54:44
add up I think that would raise questions right any communication between any members of these Witnesses
00:54:52
after the fact throughout that night should certainly be observed these stand out out for a lot of reasons and then we
00:54:57
also know that Brian Higgins apparently according to the defense stops responding to Brian Albert at some point
00:55:04
after all of this happens he kind of goes dark and I want to read something from one of the hearings from the
00:55:10
defense quote your honor there's only one way to interpret that Brian Albert was panicked that Brian Higgins had
00:55:18
flipped on him Brian Albert enlisted his Canton police officer brother to contact
00:55:23
Higgins to try and find out if that was was the case so I said early on that Canton PD got conflicted out well that's
00:55:30
cuz Brian Albert's brother Kevin was a Canton police officer apparently when the federal investigation's going on
00:55:38
Kevin Albert reaches out to Brian Higgins to be like hey why won't you talk to Brian Albert and they're saying
00:55:45
the only way you can interpret that is like we need to like get our story straight yeah and for me I think you
00:55:51
have to look at what the defense is saying they're saying hey this is all interconnected this is all really
00:55:59
problematic and when you have communications like this that really supports that especially when those
00:56:06
Communications could be interpreted as them not only discussing what happened but this Federal probe that's happening
00:56:14
simultaneously that is everyone's a little worked up about right it's not everyone's story seems to
00:56:22
have Chang including Karen everyone's story seems to have changed a little bit and is that time is that people getting
00:56:30
together and making their stories match is it is it misremembering is it is it hard to remember something that's not
00:56:37
the truth or what and it's the influence too of all of this sort of circus around it
00:56:44
in that small community right like people begin to get much more on edge and I know that in some of the source
00:56:51
material it's pointed out that the Alberts like moved away they got rid of their dog yeah so that
00:56:59
again if you can go either way with this so the the conspiracy people will say okay he replaced his floors like moved
00:57:07
out of his house and got rid of his dog shortly after this happened like all of the things and by the way Brian Albert's
00:57:11
house was never searched at the time that all this all went down they will say they said they've talked to Nate
00:57:18
like it's already was planned for them to move before this happened their dog got in a fight with another dog like
00:57:23
none of this has ties to the case but it looks bad and you would even point it out I'd move too because you go back to
00:57:31
the turtle boy and all of Karen supporters there was a point where they had a group of people protesters like of
00:57:38
a hundred people who were driving by all these key people's homes and like shouting with megaphones I would move
00:57:43
too yeah and if you're going to be a witness at a trial like you should as much as you can remove yourself from
00:57:49
things but I also again just to speak to that circus element to it I know in this
00:57:56
trial that's like playing out right now there's a buffer zone around the courthouse which of course as a
00:58:02
journalist and someone who's like no let me in there you know I'm not a demonstrator I'm always like no don't
00:58:07
keep the people out but at the same time with where this case is now it's clearly
00:58:13
necessary or or there's a reason right because of all this background and back history of what's been going on so that
00:58:20
really stuck out to me for sure as like a buffer zone around a public courthouse
00:58:24
for public proceedings but that just tells you the level that it's gotten to and I feel for John's family because
00:58:30
they have received so much hate which is to me disgusting because no like again they do believe that Karen is
00:58:39
responsible Karen's supporters have been very vocal that somehow they're bad people they this is their truth and
00:58:46
they're what they want it to play out in court and I think it will play out in court and again not that I necessarily
00:58:51
even agree with them but they have already been victimized think about John's mom who already lost her daughter
00:58:58
and now she lost her son you've got his niece and his nephew like these are real
00:59:04
people feeling real pain and this is I just can't imagine how this is adding to all of that there is so much to this
00:59:15
case like I could go on for another hour we didn't get into like there was you know another witness who says that they
00:59:20
were parked behind Karen in the driveway there is you know Julie Albert has two different stories of why or when she
00:59:28
learned about John's death the stories don't add up when you talk about a case we're supposed to talk about it in
00:59:36
Reasonable Doubt do I know if Karen did this do I know if anyone else did this I
00:59:40
don't know I do think that there is a lot of Reasonable Doubt with what's been put forward in the filings so far I do
00:59:49
think that the federal government wouldn't be looking at this unless there was something to look at they wouldn't
00:59:57
be setting this precedent a federal Nexus is what they have to be looking at which goes to much bigger things that
01:00:06
have to be observed right and that has to do with processes uh public entities people that hold certain positions how
01:00:15
are their offices managing things it's it's not the the federal government is not looking into whether the prosecution
01:00:20
is sharing Discovery with the defense they are looking at what happened on a federal level that violated a federal
01:00:28
law potentially by these characters or players on either side MH and that to me is of great interest and I think I kind
01:00:38
of want to know what the outcome of that's going to be either at the same time or maybe before even a trial
01:00:45
verdict which is going on right now so Karen's trial has started they've gone through jury selection at least at the
01:00:51
time of this recording which is why I wanted to make sure everyone was up to speed on on what had happened so far
01:00:57
what we're all walking into because I think we're going to find out so much more once the trial begins are you
01:01:03
officially on the conspiracy train are you are you it goes all the way to the top are you here I'm officially on this
01:01:08
could be its own limited series train which is my wheelous so send me to Boston I'm there I've heard that Netflix
01:01:16
has like already been following and planning a dock it's I mean there's there's stuff planned for this yeah I
01:01:22
this is one of those stories that like deserves to have a very hard look at it obviously some of the elements that are
01:01:27
in play I'm super familiar with and it's hard for me not to like make that leap because I've seen it myself I was just
01:01:34
going to say so this has a lot of parallels not necessarily the federal investigation you've kind of had to do
01:01:41
the overall investigation but the season you have coming out season six of counterclock do you want to talk about
01:01:46
that for like just a second because it's it's a wild intertwined case yeah so it's a case that involves different law
01:01:53
enforcement agencies conflict of interest of certain individuals um it involves you know a death that could be looked at
01:02:03
from a lot of different ways of is it just an accident is it something intentional so which is how it started I
01:02:10
mean much like this case you got in with this one man's death was it an accident
01:02:15
was it murder and then it grew and grew and grew all the way to the top all the way to the top so actually counterclock
01:02:23
season 6 the trailer comes out today the first day that we're launching this show
01:02:29
you can listen to the trailer on the SiriusXM app or wherever you get podcasts don't forget to follow this
01:02:36
show and counterclock and crime junkie add it to your library we're going to have a brand new episode the last Friday
01:02:43
of every single month but if you can't wait head to Crime junkie radio for your 247 True Crime fix you can follow me at
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Ashley flowers on Instagram dilia at dad. D.W on Instagram and you can follow crime junkie at crime junkie podcast so
01:03:03
that's all for this first episode of crime junk e AF I will see you back here next month with a new
01:03:12
case crime AF