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Our episodes deal with serious and often distressing incidents. If you feel at any time you need support, please
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contact your local crisis center. For suggested phone numbers, for confidential support, and for a more
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detailed list of content warnings, please see the show notes for this episode on your app or on our website.
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This episode features distressing subject matter pertaining to the sexual abuse of children. It will not be
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suitable for all listeners. The names of several witnesses have been changed. [music]
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In November of 1976, the Christ [music] Church Civic Crash on the South Island of New Zealand opened its doors for the
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first time and welcomed in children aged from [music] 18 months to 5 years old. As an increasing number of women in New
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Zealand were returning to work after having children, there was a growing demand for early childhood education
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centers like the Civic Crash. Located in the heart of the city, the crash was a collaborative undertaking by
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the city council and the Christ Church Technical Institute. Over the next decade and a half, the
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crash became so popular that parents would add their baby's names to a waiting list upon birth in the [music]
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hopes they would be accepted when they were old enough to attend. It was particularly popular with parents
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who worked in the many nonprofit organizations that were based nearby, [music] and the cray attracted families
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who tended to be middle-class professionals with politically liberal attitudes. It was open between 7:30 a.m. and 5:00
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p.m. Monday to Friday and could take children on either a part or full day basis.
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A brochure published in 1989 described [music] the Civic Crash as providing quality child care for children from
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many different racial, cultural, social, and economic backgrounds. A full range of stimulating and creative
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activities are offered with a special extension program for the four-year-olds. [music] The CRA's central location meant
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that educators could take children on excursions to the botanical gardens, [music] the Avon River, a local wildlife
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park, the town hall, and other Christ Church attractions. [music] Children participated in both free play
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and more structured activities. and they had a Taha Maui program to teach the children about New Zealand's indigenous
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culture. [music] Every week the crash highlighted a different theme which was determined by the staff members at their
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monthly meetings. By 1991 there were 11 permanent staff that ranged in age from 20 to 53.
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All had at least one qualification that enabled them to work there. The CRA's [music]
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supervisor was Gay Davidson, who had a reputation for being kind and approachable.
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On Wednesday, November 20, 1991, Gay was contacted by the mother of a three-year-old who attended the CRA.
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[music] The mother said that she suspected her son had been sexually abused by the CRA's only male child care
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worker. [music] >> [music] >> The mother, who would later become known by the pseudonym of Ms. Magnolia
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informed Gay Davidson that she would be keeping her son Jeffrey, not his real name, home from the crash until the male
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employee was removed. Gay Davidson immediately leapt into action. She sought advice from the city
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council administration and paid a visit to the Magnolia family home alongside a council personnel officer that same day.
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Speaking to Ms. Magnolia and her husband [music] Gay received a clear report of what had unfolded.
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Their three-year-old son, Jeffrey, had been exhibiting troubling behavior for some time. He could be prone to
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tantrums, sometimes woke with pain in his legs, and could be fussy about his clothes. Sometimes he didn't want to go
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to crash. He used the [music] words penis and vagina as insults. Ms. Magnolia had also noticed occasional
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redness around his anus. About a month earlier, Jeffrey had said to his father, "I don't like Peter's
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black penis." Peter seemed to refer to Peter Ellis, the male child care worker at Jeffrey's
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crash, but 33-year-old Peter wasn't black. Jeffrey's father asked if he'd seen Peter's [music] penis or was he just
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telling a story. Jeffrey answered the latter, so his father dropped the subject.
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But Jeffrey made a similar remark to his mother on Sunday, November 17, while having a bath.
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Like her husband, Ms. Magnolia probed Jeffrey with follow-up questions. Again, [music] Jeffree said he hadn't
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seen Peter's penis. On Tuesday, November 19th, Jeffree told his grandmother that he didn't want to
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go to Crash that day because he didn't like Peter's black penis. By now, Ms. Magnolia was highly
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concerned. She herself was a survivor of sexual abuse and was now a social worker
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who had written a handbook on the subject. Her son's repeated comments, combined
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with his sometimes troubling behavior, suggested he may have been the victim of abuse. [music]
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That night, she questioned Jeffrey again. "Will you tell me what happened with Peter and [music] his penis?" she
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asked. "No, I won't," said Jeffrey. "Did Peter hurt you?" "No." "Did Peter scare
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you?" "Yes." Jeffrey told his mother he didn't want to go to Crash anymore, but he'd go if
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Peter was no longer there. Then his mother asked, "Was Peter's penis scary?" "It was dark scary," Jeffrey said. "If
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Peter came to this house, he would be a monster. If he was a monster and he was here, you'd be asleep, Mom, in your bed,
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and you'd wake up and see the monster, [music] and you'd be surprised." The Magnolia were asked to submit their
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complaint in writing so that the council could initiate proper proceedings. Once they had the written complaint,
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they would pass it on to Peter Ellis and his union and hold a hearing within 4 days.
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In the meantime, Peter would be suspended on paid leave. The couple submitted their written
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complaint that same day, concluding it by adding that they were worried for the safety of other children at the crash as
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well. Gay Davidson was shocked and confused by the allegations. She couldn't believe Peter Ellis could
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be capable of harming a child, but at the same time, she wondered, had something happened?
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Peter had worked at the Christ Church Civic Crash since 1986 when he was 28 years old. His career in early childhood
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education had come about in an unorthodox way. Peter had previously been employed at a bakery and was also
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receiving dull payments from the government. When the New Zealand authorities realized Peter had received more money
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than he was entitled to, he was charged with misleading a social welfare officer
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and sentenced to 80 hours community service. Peter was given the option of completing
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his community service at an animal shelter or a crash. He chose the latter. Peter soon began his service at the
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Christ Church Civic Crash, which was just a 20-minute walk from the large boarding house where he lived. Because
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the crash had a philosophy of giving everyone a fair go, there was no stigma associated with Peter's [music]
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sentence. He hadn't committed a violent crime, and his offending wasn't of a serious nature. There were no barriers
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to him working with children. But there had still been some initial concerns that Peter might not fit in or
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be accepted at the crash. Peter was bisexual during a time when it had recently been legal to discriminate
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against people based on their sexuality. He also expressed himself in an open way
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where others might have opted to be more muted. Often described as flamboyant, Peter had a long hair, wore brightly
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colored clothes, and applied makeup. His fingers had long nails and were adorned
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with rings. And he was loud with a biting sense of humor. But the CRA's accepting community
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welcomed Peter and he became a favorite of some parents and children alike. Peter loved kids and they returned that
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affection, often begging him to play their favorite games. One mother was so impressed with Peter
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[music] that she employed him to babysit her 3 and 1/2year-old daughter as well.
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Keen to stay on after his community service had concluded, Peter applied for the New Zealand Child Care Association's
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training course. And in March 1987, Gay Davidson recommended him for a permanent
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position. However, there had been some issues that Gay had to pull Peter up on. Although he
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was renowned for his sharp wit, sometimes his jokes vered on mean, particularly when directed at his
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colleagues. He was fond of a drink and had been known to sometimes drink too much. He [music] loved his job but had
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trouble with authority sometimes. And while he enjoyed playing games with the kids, he had a tendency to overdo it
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at times. Peter became known for the mattress game, an activity where he laid a mattress on the floor and lined children
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up in front of it. Then he'd hurl another mattress at them, [music] tossing them backwards to be sandwiched
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between the two mattresses. The kids loved it and begged Peter to play the game. [music] But after a
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couple of children knocked heads, Gay Davidson told Peter to stop. That wasn't the only boisterous game
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Peter initiated. Another time he'd hung a little boy off the craters picket fence by his overalls
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while a group of other kids clamored for him to hang them up too. Again, Gay told him that such activities
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weren't appropriate. He was great with kids and knew how to make them laugh, but he didn't always
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have the most sensitive approach. In February 1989, Peter had been issued a warning for not consoling a child who
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was crying, for using excessive physical force and for being overly sarcastic in
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a way that confused children. Peter disputed the details of this warning and [music] there were no
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further issues after that. Overall, Gay had been very happy with Peter as a colleague. Now she found
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herself torn between wanting to support him and wondering whether there might be
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a reason she shouldn't. [music] Peter Ellis was notified of the allegations and put on leave while a
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hearing was scheduled for the following Monday, November 25. There was a strict protocol that had to
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be followed which meant that no one who knew about the complaint was permitted to say anything about it to anyone else
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including Crash staff or parents. Peter Ellis adamantly denied any wrongdoing. He told others he couldn't understand
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why Jeffrey Magnolia would make such a strange remark and wondered if it had something to do with a puppy Peter had
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recently sold to the family. Peter loved animals and sometimes bred them. Two months earlier in September,
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Ms. Magnolia had visited Peter Ellis's home with Jeffrey to buy a black puppy he was selling.
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Jeffrey mentioned that he wanted to name the puppy Blossom. So, Peter turned the
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puppy over to show Jeffrey that it was male. Pointing to the dog's genitalia, he
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[music] said, "Look, it's a boy." Others speculated that Jeffrey might have overheard something he shouldn't
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have, as Peter was known for making crude jokes about his private life to his colleagues.
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He liked to shock the women he worked with by telling them outrageous things like how he participated in golden
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showers, a sexual practice where one would urinate on one's partner. A couple of crash workers remembered
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that a few months earlier in August, Peter had told them how he had used black markers to color in his
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boyfriend's penis after his boyfriend came home drunk one night. They suspected the little boy had
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overheard this conversation and not understanding it, was [music] troubled. Peter retained a lawyer and met with a
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union representative who advised [music] Peter not to attend the hearing. Any allegations of possible sexual [music]
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abuse was a matter for the police to investigate, not the council. Meanwhile, [music] a twoperson team from
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the education review office visited the crash every day to closely monitor the goings on. They also interviewed between
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20 to [music] 30 parents and city council officials. They found nothing untoward and gave the
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crash a positive review, noting that the children appeared happy, inquisitive, and sociable, [music] and had high
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self-esteem. On Monday, November 25, Jeffrey Magnolia was interviewed as part of the council's
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investigation. The little boy made no disclosures about sexual abuse or Peter Ellis. The lack of
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evidence against Peter meant the council was leaning towards reinstating him. Jeffrey's [music] parents refused to
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accept this, however, and continued to pressure the council to fire Peter. One council official warned Ms. Magnolia
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that spreading word of the allegation at this stage would be both defamatory and
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inflammatory, but suggested she could file a police report. Ms. Magnolia replied that she already
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had. She had phoned Christ Church's child abuse unit on the same day [music] as Jeffrey's interview and spoken to a
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detective named Colony. She had also spoken to other crash parents about [music] the matter despite
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being told not to later explaining I intentionally didn't listen to that because I have a strong belief that
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[music] secrecy in sexual abuse cases keeps it happening and I felt it needed to be talked about.
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I rang the parents of friends that Jeff played [music] with because I was concerned for those kids.
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In response to Ms. Magnolia's report, Detective Colony began looking into the accusations.
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Soon, he'd received complaints from three further parents. The detective didn't like the sound of
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Peter [music] Ellis, and he was particularly suspicious of the way he'd obtained a position at the crash in the
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first place. By all reports, Peter Ellis loved animals and owned many pets. Why then,
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when given the option of completing his community service at an animal shelter, had he opted to volunteer at a crash
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instead? It sounded like the action of a potential predator seeking easy access to vulnerable children.
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Within a week of obtaining the complaint, Detective Eid advised the city council that he believed he was on
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to something big. On Detective Eid's advice, an urgent meeting was planned to alert all Crash
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parents that a staff member was under suspicion, [music] despite the council's stance that the
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allegations should be withheld pending a full investigation. As it was, word had already gotten out
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to some parents who had been calling social welfare agencies for answers. Detective Eid attended the meeting which
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was held at the crash on Monday, December 2. Word of the meeting was somehow leaked to Christ Church
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newspaper the press which ran a story that same day about Ellis's suspension with the headline allegations of abuse.
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Roughly 100 parents attended the meeting, most of whom had been completely oblivious as to the
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allegations. When Ms. Magnolia arrived. She paused in the doorway and burst into tears.
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A couple of other parents rushed over to support her, escorting her to a seat. Concern spread amongst the others
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present upon witnessing this scene. Detective Eid addressed the group, assuring them there was no need for
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alarm, but there were some concerns. A staff member had been suspended. Based on Peter Ellis's absence from the
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meeting, everyone quickly deduced that P was the staff member in question. An employee of the Department of Social
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Welfare, or DSW, also spoke at the meeting. While she wouldn't discuss the allegations that had been made, she told
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parents about warning signs they should watch out for in their children. Nightmares, [music]
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tantrums, clinginess, and bedwedding. Physical symptoms to monitor included rashes and abrasions. [music]
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They should also pay attention if their child was starting to exhibit any general behavioral changes, especially
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behavior that seemed sexual in nature. She recommended books parents could read to their children that addressed sexual
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abuse in an age appropriate manner, such as the 1983 publication, A Very Touching
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Book by [music] therapist Jan Heindman. But parents were not to question their children themselves.
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Interviewing children about sexual abuse required the expertise of trained specialists.
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Over the course of the meeting, the mood became more volatile with some parents shouting that the council would have to
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pay for what had happened. Other [music] parents took the opposite stance with one father remarking, "There's an
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assumption of guilt here that I find very disturbing. A few people abruptly stood and left,
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describing the situation as a witch hunt. From that moment on, the community was
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split into two camps. Those who were certain that abuse had taken place and those who [music] weren't.
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Supporters of the crash suspected that Peter Ellis was being unfairly targeted [music] due to homophobia and was being
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scapegoed. Following the meeting, parents began to observe their children closely for the
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signs listed by the DSW employee. Upon seeing them, some parents couldn't resist asking more direct questions.
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None of the children made any disclosures about sexual abuse, though some complained about Peter's
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roughousing. Sue Sidi, an employee with the DSW, conducted formal interviews with a
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number of the children as well. None of them disclosed any inappropriate touching from any CRA staff [music]
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members, though Sue felt cause for concern for six of the children. Detective Colony had provided parents
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with his [music] contact details so they could reach out with any questions or concerns.
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He was only called by one parent after the meeting. On Friday, December 20, exactly 1 month
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after Ms. Magnolia had first raised [music] the alarm about Peter Ellis. Detective Eid closed the investigation,
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noting in his report, "It is unlikely that these children will disclose sexual abuse. [music] The investigation is
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complete as far as the police are concerned. If anything [music] further develops in
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1992, I will advise you Despite the closure of the investigation, Peter Ellis was not
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reinstated at the crash. Although Detective Colony never met with Peter Ellis or interviewed him, he had
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notified the council that he was concerned by reports of Peter's rough behavior with the children.
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Quote, "It is clear to me that Peter Ellis should not be involved in any way in the supervision or care of children.
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I believe that we were very lucky to have this brought to our attention at this stage. If he had continued on at
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the center, things could have got worse. Moreover, rumors were persisting and [music] two parents had unenrolled their
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children from the civic crash, including Ms. Magnolia. She and a number of other parents had
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formed a support group and continued to worry about children who had been in Peter's care, including four children
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whom he was known to have babysat outside of the crash. They kept questioning their own children
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about Peter and encouraged other parents to do the same. They read aloud from the
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books that the DSW worker had suggested. At least one mother told her daughter that Peter had been very naughty and was
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probably going to jail. On Thursday, January 30, a little over a month after the police investigation
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into the allegations against Peter Ellis was closed, one child disclosed something to her mother.
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7-year-old Mandy, not her real name, had never attended the crash, but her younger siblings had. Her mother,
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referred to by the pseudonym of Missutus, was a social worker. She'd been an early supporter of Ms. Magnolia
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and had helped organize the parents meeting 2 months earlier. Sometimes Mandy visited the crash with
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her mother to collect her siblings. Mandy told her mother that Peter Ellis had abused her [music] during some of
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these 5 to 10 minute windows. An interview with DSW worker Sue Sid was arranged.
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Mandy told Susidy that she had been in the area of the crash for older children playing a xylophone when Peter Ellis
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approached her on [music] stilts. When Sue interrupted to clarify if Peter was really on stilts, Mandy amended her
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description and [music] said he wasn't before continuing. He came along and he touched touched
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touched touched me touched [music] touched. Then I said no and then I ran away and so did him because he didn't
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want to be [music] caught because I always knew it was him. Mandy indicated that Peter had touched
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[music] her under her clothing and attempted to digitally penetrate her. Mandy's disclosure had an immediate
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effect and resulted in Detective Colony launching a second investigation. More disclosures soon followed.
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By late February, more and more children were making allegations which grew increasingly shocking in nature. Some
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alleged that Peter Ellis had shown them his penis and forced them to perform oral sex. Others said he had touched
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their genitals. He had poured water from a hose into a cup before ejaculating into it and making the children drink
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it. He also forced them to drink his urine and eat his feces. One girl said the reason she hadn't
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reported the abuse until now was because he just said, "Don't tell your parents or else you'll turn into a girkin and
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get eaten up." She had seen Peter eat girkens before. Once she'd had one in her lunchbox, and
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Peter had come along and stolen it. As the children disclosed these alleged abuses, some were referred for
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specialist pediatric examinations. None of these medical examinations resulted in definitive evidence of
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sexual abuse, and none of the children were found to have any sexually transmitted illnesses.
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One child reportedly had possible scarring around her anus, which the examiner said was supportive of the
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allegation of sexual abuse. A few children were described as having redness, inflammation, and minor
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irritation. By the end of March, five children had made formal allegations of sexual abuse
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by Peter Ellis. Jeffrey Magnolia, the child whose comments had sparked the initial investigation, was not one of
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them. Despite never obtaining a disclosure from the original complaintant, Detective Colony was ready
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to make an arrest. Monday, March 30, 1992 was Peter Ellis's 34th birthday. That morning, Detective Eid and four
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other officers from the child abuse unit arrived on his doorstep armed with a search warrant. Peter was arrested while
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officers began searching his home for documents, photographs, or videos relating to the sexual abuse of
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children. They recovered nothing despite returning again on another occasion to rip up the
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floorboards. While Peter's home was being searched for evidence, he was transferred to the
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police station for questioning. Peter informed the police that he couldn't help them before calling his
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lawyer. In the presence of his attorney, he answered more questions and listened as
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details of the allegations were put before him. Peter pointed out some errors in the children's claims, such as
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one girl describing him as wearing pairs of striped and spotted shorts, which he
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didn't own. Detective Colony disregarded this, [music] stating, "So, she hasn't got the
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clothes completely right. That still takes us to the statements about the touching of her vagina. Did you ever do
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that?" "No," Peter [music] replied. "How long do you think it might take to touch a child's vaginal area?" The
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detective continued. "I wouldn't know [clears throat] because I have never done anything like that,"
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Peter retorted. Despite his denials, Peter Ellis was charged with sexually abusing the five
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separate complainants. He was granted bail the following day while being ordered to stay away from
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children and away from the crash as well as to observe a strict 7:00 p.m. to 7:00
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a.m. curfew. That same evening of Tuesday, March 31, roughly 250 current and former Christ
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Church Civic Crash parents crowded into a church hall for another meeting about the case.
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There was a heavy police presence outside the building and the city's entire child abuse unit [music] inside,
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including Detective Colony. Hanging over everybody present was a heavy sense of anxiety and fear.
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Parents were updated about the arrest of Peter Ellis, though investigators were cy when asked what had actually
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happened, simply stating that the matter was now before the courts and couldn't be discussed.
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But they assured parents that counseling was available for anyone who required it
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and recommended that they have their children formally interviewed. Parents were also encouraged to go home
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and ask their children questions about possible abuse while not being too specific.
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If a child did disclose an offense, parents should thank [music] them for sharing, reassure them that they hadn't
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done anything wrong, and notify DWS immediately. Suicide again listed symptoms of abuse
00:29:32
that parents should watch out for and spoke in a very emotional fashion. This added to the overall atmosphere of
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anger and panic. Some parents began to ask questions that suggested they felt they were being lied
00:29:46
to by the council. One parent [music] demanded to know if other staff members had been involved.
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A four-page booklet was passed out to attendees as they left, providing them with information about child sexual
00:30:00
abuse, as well as information about counseling, medical examinations, and possible compensation.
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In the days that followed this meeting, roughly 60 parents phoned a specially coordinated police hotline to request
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videotaped [music] interviews for their children. It would take DSW employees and
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detectives several months to conduct them all with up to five children being interviewed each day.
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By the end of May 1992, [music] police had uncovered eight new complainants, bringing the total number to 13.
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One new complainant was a former student called Eli Lurel, not his real name, who'd left the crash to attend school
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that year after turning five in 1991. He started out by talking about Peter Ellis as being sometimes bad and
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sometimes good. [music] When asked what Peter did that was bad, Eli said he dipped people in the ponds.
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Peter was known for sometimes dipping the children's hair in paddling pools and water troughs on a hot day.
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Gradually, Eli disclosed more, saying that Peter did we in people's faces [music] and placed his penis in Eli's
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mouth. Another new complainant was Zelda Cyprus, not her real name, who was also
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a former student [music] and the oldest of the complainants at 9 years old. Zelda had attended the Christ Church
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Civic CRA for 2 years and had also been babysat by Peter Ellis around Christmas of 1986 shortly after he'd started
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working there. Zelda gradually revealed that Peter had abused her while babysitting her at his
00:31:49
home. He'd exposed himself and Zelda later said he'd touched her inappropriately as well.
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More children made additional disclosures about Peter making them consume urine and feces and touching
00:32:04
their genitalia. One girl said Peter had raped [music] her. The 13th complainant was a little
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boy who would become known by the pseudonym of Bart Dogwood who started attending the crash in 1989 when he was
00:32:18
almost three. Initially, when his mother had asked if Peter had ever touched him
00:32:24
inappropriately, [music] Bart had replied, "Peter wouldn't do that to me. He's my friend."
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But over the coming weeks, after he [music] was questioned again, Bart said Peter had touched his penis while
00:32:38
cleaning him up after he went to the toilet. More social workers and experts had been
00:32:47
added to the case as it grew. In May of 1992, [music] a DSW social worker named Jan Galandis
00:32:56
was tasked with supporting the families who had been involved in court proceedings.
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Jen Crossen, [music] a nurse with social work experience, was appointed to support past and present
00:33:07
Creree families who were [music] not going to court. The two women would spend much of the
00:33:13
next year visiting families, liazing with investigators and therapists, and attending the meetings of various
00:33:19
support groups that had sprung up around the case. They also provided families with
00:33:25
information about child sexual abuse, pulling together a range of helpful books [music] on the subject.
00:33:32
The presence of Jan Ganders and Jang Crossen led to some families who'd initially refused the offer of
00:33:38
interviews to change their minds. The case had also become a big news story. An initial suppression order that had
00:33:47
kept Peter Ellis's name out of the media had been dropped, and stories regularly
00:33:52
ran about him. Throughout winter, the number of complainants continued to grow until
00:33:59
there were 20. Roughly 8,000 pages of evidence had been received with more to come.
00:34:08
Jeffrey Magnolia, the child whose initial comments sparked the case, had clammed up about the subject when
00:34:14
interviewed by police, so he wasn't a complainant. But he would occasionally still refer to
00:34:20
Peter when talking to his mother. One day in late June, he was [music] walking with his parents when they
00:34:27
passed the Masonic Lodge. Jeffrey pointed at the building and said that Peter had taken him there. A short
00:34:36
while later, he pointed at a manhole cover on the road, remarking that Peter had pushed children inside to where
00:34:43
there were caged gorillas underground. Ms. Magnolia was concerned about these remarks. She began to keep lists of
00:34:52
things such as this that Jeffree said and notified detectives. At the end of July, she walked Jeffrey
00:35:00
past the Masonic Lodge again. Once more, Jeffree said he'd been there along with
00:35:06
a number of other places, the Botanic Gardens, car parks, some hotels, hospitals, and bridges amongst many
00:35:15
more. Ms. Magnolia noted all of these places on her lists as well as something else.
00:35:23
Descriptions of other people who had supposedly participated in the abuse. These included bad men, some women, Maui
00:35:32
men, a man with a ponytail, [music] and Peter Ellis's mother. Now fear was starting to spread that
00:35:41
Peter Ellis hadn't acted alone. Another meeting was [music] held where Detective Colony and a colleague spoke
00:35:51
to parents about these new allegations. They would need more information before they could identify any other possible
00:35:58
perpetrators. Copies of Ms. Magnolia's lists were distributed so that parents could ask
00:36:04
their children about the places and people described. By early August 1992, another child was
00:36:13
making disclosures in line with Jeffree Magnolia. Bart Dogwood had previously stated that
00:36:20
Peter had molested him while tidying him up after he went to the toilet. He'd disclosed this almost 15 months after
00:36:28
he'd stopped attending the crash after his concerned mother began questioning him.
00:36:34
When she received the lists of possible other locations where abuse had taken place, she took Bart to the large
00:36:40
boarding house that had previously been Peter Ellis's home and parked outside. observing her son as he looked at the
00:36:48
building. She was certain that he recognized it and took him back for another DSW interview.
00:36:56
There, Bart said that he'd taken a bath with Peter in a house. Peter had sworn at him, threatened his family, raped
00:37:05
him, made Bart masturbate him, and forced the boy to weed his feces. There had been some other men present,
00:37:13
but Bart didn't know who they were. Bart's parents were sure that more had happened.
00:37:21
Over the past few months, Bart had been experiencing behavioral issues. He was refusing to use the toilet, instead
00:37:29
soiling himself and had mood swings. Certain he'd experienced more than he'd revealed, they continued to question
00:37:37
their son at home. Two days later, on Thursday, August 6, they took him back for another interview
00:37:45
where he spoke in more detail about abuses he'd experienced in Peter Ellis's flat.
00:37:52
20 adults had been present, including Peter and his mother. There were also 15 men that Bart described as Asian in
00:38:01
appearance. They were dressed in black and white costumes and danced in a circle around several naked children in
00:38:09
some kind of ritual act. There were also three other women present who participated in the abuse.
00:38:17
Two of the women undressed and pretended to have sex while Peter and his mother took photos.
00:38:24
Unlike the Asian men, Bart knew who these women were. They were other child care workers from
00:38:32
the crash. Their names were Gay Davidson, Marie Keys, and Janice Buckingham. Bart had also named some of the children
00:38:47
present at this bizarre [music] scene. As word of his disclosures spread, these children were questioned. Worried
00:38:55
parents grilled their kids and took them on field trips to the same locations, trying to prompt any recollections.
00:39:02
[music] Some of the other complainants began making similar reports to Bart. They agreed that they had been harmed at
00:39:10
Peter Ellis's home and the Masonic lodge other victims had identified. and they also echoed Bart's description
00:39:18
of the Asian men who had danced around naked children, which became known as the circle incident.
00:39:25
New details of various assaults kept coming. [music] Adults had taken photographs, pricricked
00:39:32
them with needles, and drugged them with pills. Fingers, food, and sticks [music] were
00:39:38
inserted into the children's orififices. Once Peter had swung a child around a prickle bush by his penis.
00:39:47
Animals featured heavily in some disclosures. There were [music] descriptions of Peter
00:39:52
killing and cooking kittens, then feeding them to the children. He kept a pet giraffe at his house [music] and
00:39:59
sometimes he would tie up the children and confine them in cages alongside lions.
00:40:06
Once he turned a child into a frog and a cat. This reference [music] to a supposed
00:40:13
spell wasn't the only allegation of a cult-like behavior. Children said they had to chant, perform
00:40:20
mock marriages, and were buried in graveyards. They had blood poured over their heads and were forced to consume
00:40:27
[music] what they thought was human flesh. Bart would later say that he had also
00:40:32
been forced to kill another little boy named Andrew. [music] The adults and other children
00:40:39
had looked on as Bart used a knife to stab Andrew, who'd been placed inside a coffin.
00:40:45
No trace of Andrew was ever found. More complainants named Gay and Marie as perpetrators and said they'd seen them
00:40:55
at the Masonic Lodge, where there were trap doors, underground tunnels, and cameras.
00:41:01
Another staff member named Debbie Gillespie was also accused. [music] The naming of the female crash
00:41:08
workers didn't come as a surprise to police. There had been suspicions about some of
00:41:14
the women who worked at the crash from early in the investigation, but these were initially dismissed after the women
00:41:20
presented well in interviews. However, a recent report had caused detectives [music] to rethink things.
00:41:29
After the allegations against Peter Ellis were first made, Christurch City Council had commissioned a review of
00:41:35
management practices at the crash. The review would be undertaken by Rosemary SM, a registered psychologist who
00:41:43
trained in education and social work and was assigned as an independent outsider.
00:41:50
Smart's role wasn't to determine whether there had been any abuse. Instead, she was looking at the CRA's management and
00:41:57
policies. The council hoped the report would restore the CRA's excellent reputation.
00:42:05
Smart first met with CRA staff in March of 1992 and spent time observing them at
00:42:10
work on a number of occasions. She interviewed each of them one- on-one and was given access to statements they'd
00:42:17
provided to the police. She never met [music] with Peter Ellis or observed him working with children.
00:42:25
By the end of August 1992, Smart was ready to deliver her completed report. Although Peter Ellis was yet to stand
00:42:35
trial, the report spoke of the abuse and his guilt as though both had been confirmed.
00:42:41
It also contained detailed accounts of his deviant lifestyle, which she had allegedly been told about by his
00:42:48
colleagues. Smart was also critical of the CRA's female child care workers, [music]
00:42:55
writing, "On the one hand, all but one staff member was struggling to believe Ellis had abused anyone and frankly
00:43:02
[music] could not accept such abuse could have happened at the crash. And yet, individually, each one carried
00:43:10
information about his behavior that would send alarm bells screaming in the head of anyone with the [music]
00:43:15
slightest clue about child sex abuse. Some of the remarks divulged by Peter's colleagues [music] included concerns
00:43:23
about Peter's drinking and his ability to babysit children outside of work. He had reportedly mentioned that an uncle
00:43:31
had abused him when he was 8 years old, but it was okay because he knew what he was doing.
00:43:39
There were reports that Peter had made inappropriate comments about children's bodies and the size of the boy's
00:43:45
penises. I thought he was perverted. One employee said he told me [music] explicit details
00:43:52
of the men and women he slept with. He likes to flaunt his sex life. Smart suggested
00:44:02
because he behaved and spoke somewhat outrageously and possibly because he was bisexual, [music] he was seen as
00:44:08
different. Therefore, for both staff and parents, [music] the usual boundaries did not
00:44:15
seem to apply. Smart was critical of the staff for what she believed was their total lack of
00:44:22
training in sexual abuse prevention and detection. [music] She also quoted research from a 1987
00:44:30
book by American sociologist David Finkelhaw titled [music] Nursery Crimes. Finkelhoor's book deals with the issue
00:44:38
of child sexual abuse within daycare centers with a particular emphasis on ritual abuse and abuse by female
00:44:46
workers. It had become something of a go-to manual on the topic for social workers
00:44:52
and [music] sexual abuse experts. Christ Church police had received a copy of Smart's report at around the same
00:45:03
time that children started naming the female crash employees as perpetrators alongside Peter Ellis.
00:45:10
Investigators had looked into Peter's mother, Leslie Ellis, after some of the children included her in their
00:45:16
accusations, but they ultimately concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to implicate her.
00:45:24
They narrowed their focus to the other crash workers instead with Smart's work going some way to convincing the child
00:45:31
abuse unit detectives that they needed to investigate the women there. They also needed to take action to
00:45:38
prevent the abuse of any more children. Four women's names had come up during disclosures and all four still worked at
00:45:47
the crash. On Thursday, September 3, 1992, the Christ Church civic crash was abruptly
00:45:54
and permanently closed by the Ministry of Education. All 13 of its staff members were made
00:46:02
redundant. By now, the case had become a media circus. Rumors about what had been going
00:46:10
on at the Crash were running rampant. Some reporters heard that CRA employees had been importing live snakes from
00:46:18
Australia for use in rituals and stealing terminated fetuses from an abortion clinic, then eating them. It
00:46:26
was said that children were being trafficked for quote Asian sex rings. Peter Ellis and now his female
00:46:34
colleagues became the targets of public rage. One CRA employee who was in her early
00:46:41
20s was told at the supermarket that she and everyone else who'd worked at the CRA should have the words child molester
00:46:48
tattooed across their foreheads. Police from the child abuse unit obtained search warrants for the homes
00:46:55
of the four female crash workers who had been implicated in the abuse as well as
00:47:00
another employee who hadn't been. Rather than go to the district court nearby, they opted to travel to the
00:47:07
Christ Church suburbs to obtain permission from an elderly judge. He signed their warrants, which indicated
00:47:14
that they would be looking for address books, pornography, and the remains of human babies, amongst other things.
00:47:22
Nothing of significance was found, though. At Debbie Gillespy's house, police recovered a handwritten note that
00:47:29
joked about children watching through a home's window at a couple having sex. In Gay Davidson's office at the Crash,
00:47:37
police found two letters, both of which were declining job applications. One of the letters joked that as the CRA
00:47:45
already employed one pedophile, they didn't need another. Despite the lack of physical evidence,
00:47:55
all four female [music] suspects were arrested on Thursday, October 1, in publicly televised events.
00:48:02
Not wanting any of their former colleagues to fall under suspicion, the four female suspects opted against
00:48:09
having their names suppressed. Their faces were splashed across newspapers and the Daily News, revealing
00:48:16
that they all looked very different from one another. 39-year-old Gay Davidson was a mother of
00:48:23
two with street hair who'd worked at the crash for 8 years and had been its supervisor for the last four.
00:48:30
Marie Keys, 44 years old, was the assistant supervisor and had two teenage daughters. [music] She was petite,
00:48:39
described as kindly and dressed conservatively. [music] Mother of four, Janice Buckingham was
00:48:46
also 44 with a tall, strong build. Debbie Gillespie was 29 years old and wore long flowing dresses. [music] She
00:48:55
had been at the crash for 4 years and was the head of its nursery looking after the youngest children.
00:49:03
Although three of these women were mothers, they were never investigated for possible abuse against their own
00:49:09
children, nor deemed unsafe for their children to be around. On Monday, November 2, 1992, one month
00:49:18
after the women's arrest, a deposition hearing for all five defendants [music] began.
00:49:24
Both sides would make their cases before a judge who would determine if there was
00:49:28
enough evidence to proceed to the high court. The defendants were facing a total of 60
00:49:35
charges of sexual offending against 20 children. Peter Ellis had been charged with 26
00:49:41
counts of indecent assault, 12 counts of sexual violation, six counts of inducing
00:49:47
an indecent act, and one count of performing an indecent act in a public place. Gay Davidson, Marie Keys, and Janice
00:49:56
Buckingham were each facing three counts of indecent assault and one count of sexual violation for assaulting children
00:50:04
during the circle incident. Debbie Gillespie was charged with one count of indecent assault, one of sexual
00:50:12
violation, and one of public indecency. It had been alleged by a child that she and Peter Ellis had had sex on the CRA's
00:50:21
bathroom floor. An angry crowd had gathered outside the court to make their feelings about the
00:50:29
defendants known. [music] There was no doubt in their minds that all five were guilty of unspeakable
00:50:36
acts. But inside the court, very few people were present. There were so many potential witnesses
00:50:43
in the case that most people even tangentially connected to it were expecting to be called as witnesses.
00:50:51
They wouldn't be able to sit in the public gallery until they had given their evidence.
00:50:56
But the media was allowed to stay. In the end, only 47 out of 92 potential crown witnesses were called to give
00:51:05
evidence, meaning almost half wouldn't be testifying. Nevertheless, it took 11 weeks to
00:51:13
complete the deposition hearing, which was a slow and arduous process. It began with roughly 40 hours of
00:51:20
videotaped interviews of the children being screened in court. Then the DSW interviewers were called upon to give
00:51:27
evidence. Four medical practitioners testified about examinations they'd performed on
00:51:33
the children, stating that they hadn't found anything that definitively proved or ruled out sexual abuse.
00:51:41
They testified to identifying symptoms consistent with abuse, though their findings were inconclusive and sometimes
00:51:49
contradictory. During one examination, a doctor found that a female complainant's highman
00:51:55
appeared to have been penetrated, but in a follow-up appointment, she later found
00:52:00
the child's hyman showed no such thing. Police officers also testified about their investigations.
00:52:09
They addressed something that people had long speculated about. How was Peter Ellis supposed to have
00:52:16
abused these children in a busy crash where people were always coming and going without anyone ever seeing
00:52:23
anything? More than 70 families used the crash each week and parents were known to show
00:52:29
up at random throughout the day. No adults, no colleagues or parents had ever seen Peter abuse a child.
00:52:39
The police testified that there were areas Peter had access to where he could abuse children uninterrupted, like the
00:52:46
toilets and in a kitchen area that required a key to access. Police also alleged that he had taken
00:52:54
children out on walks to his home. Peter vehemently denied this allegation. Two staff members were almost always
00:53:03
present on walks outside of the crash. In addition to being questioned by the Crown attorneys, every witness was
00:53:12
cross-examined by Peter Ellis's defense team and the four women's lawyers, who established that no physical evidence
00:53:19
had been found to support any of the allegations. Following up on children's claims,
00:53:25
[music] investigators had searched the crash and other identified buildings for trap doors, secret tunnels, cages, and
00:53:33
child abuse material. They found nothing, nor had any graveyards been disturbed [music]
00:53:40
or links been uncovered to any other suspects, such as a group of Asian men. All four female defendants dressed
00:53:49
conservatively for the hearing, while Peter Ellis wore his usual casual clothes, which made him look somewhat
00:53:55
eccentric. The group passed notes between themselves throughout the hearing. Sometimes they made jokes and Peter drew
00:54:04
comical cartoons about the proceedings. One message read, "I think we should publish a civic recipe book. Needle
00:54:14
tomato and poison soup, [music] kitten stew, urine sorbet. The possibilities are endless."
00:54:23
The sound of muffled giggling that sometimes emanated from the defense [music] table angered others present.
00:54:30
In closing addresses, the defense attorneys argued that a jury trial could not proceed as there wasn't enough
00:54:37
material evidence against their clients. On [music] Thursday, February 11, 1993,
00:54:44
the judge delivered his ruling. All five defendants would be committed to trial.
00:54:55
The [music] judge dismissed four of the charges, including the one of public indecency that related to Peter Ellis
00:55:02
and Debbie Gillespie allegedly having sex at the crash. But Peter and his four colleagues would have to answer for all
00:55:09
the other charges in front of a jury. From the back of the courtroom, someone was heard remarking, "Hang the bitches."
00:55:20
As the crown began to prepare for trial, they had to decide exactly what evidence
00:55:26
would be presented before a jury. That job fell to Crown Solicitor Brent Stanway.
00:55:33
He began going over the evidence, assessing what was reliable and admissible, as well as likely to result
00:55:40
in a conviction. Stanway ultimately decided against calling upon six of the 20 complainant
00:55:47
children whose claims had either been dismissed at the deposition hearing or were determined to be too weak.
00:55:55
A couple of the complainants were also withdrawn from the case by their mothers.
00:56:00
This led to no charges remaining against Debbie Gillespie as her two remaining charges related to one of these
00:56:08
children. The case against a Debbie was dropped and on Friday, March 5, 1993, she was
00:56:15
officially discharged. Brent Stanaway also reduced [music] the number of charges remaining that related
00:56:23
to other complaintants. Some multiple charges were blended into a single charge. This led to the three
00:56:32
equal charges against Gay Davidson, Marie Keys, and Janice Buckingham being reduced into just one charge.
00:56:41
With his clients now facing a single charge, the women's defense attorney applied to have their case dismissed,
00:56:47
arguing that no jury properly directed could find them guilty. Justice Neil Williamson, who was
00:56:55
presiding over the trial, accepted this submission. On Tuesday, April 6th, the charge
00:57:03
against the three women was dropped with the Justice Williamson finding the evidence against them, quote, of
00:57:10
insufficient weight to justify their trial. That left just Peter Ellis to stand trial alone.
00:57:21
His charges had been significantly reduced during the preliminary trial process as well. The 45 charges he'd
00:57:29
originally faced were whittleled down to 28 and [music] the number of complaintants had dropped from 20 to 13.
00:57:38
He was accused of having abused these children over 5 years from 1986 to 1991. The crown solicitor had offered to
00:57:48
cancel all of the sexual violation charges if Peter agreed to plead guilty to one or two representational charges
00:57:55
per complainant. But Peter had refused. His trial began on Monday, April 26th, 1993.
00:58:06
Some of the most bizarre accusations made by the complainants had not been included in the charges, such as the
00:58:12
claims of animal torture, murder, and satanic style rituals. With no corroborating or material
00:58:20
evidence to support these claims, the prosecution concluded that airing them might undermine their case or prove
00:58:27
off-putting to the jury. However, the circle incident would still be included with the crown alleging that
00:58:34
Peter Ellis had abused children at an unknown location in the presence of others and had provided other adults
00:58:42
with children to abuse. Peter Ellis's defense barristister, Rob Harrison, wanted the children's
00:58:49
videotaped interviews played in full. He hoped that if the jury heard their wilder allegations, then it would cast
00:58:57
reasonable doubt on their testimony and the case. To Harrison's disappointment, the judge ruled that the tapes were not
00:59:05
relevant and were therefore inadmissible. The crown would first be calling on the
00:59:12
13 complainants, all of whom were aged between 3 and 1/2 to 9 years old, and their parents.
00:59:19
They would be followed by other witnesses, including police officers, DWS interviewers, and experts.
00:59:27
The first witness was 9-year-old Aelda, the oldest of the complainants. She alleged that Peter Ellis had touched
00:59:35
her vagina while babysitting her in 1986, had done so again at the crash, and had also forced her to touch his
00:59:42
[music] penis. The following two witnesses were girls who alleged that Peter had touched their
00:59:48
genitals at the crash while they were fully dressed. The complainants who followed made increasingly violent
00:59:55
allegations. Four said that Peter had urinated on them. One said he had touched her bottom
01:00:02
with a needle. There were accusations that Peter had made children bathe with him, had hit
01:00:08
and kicked them, attempted oral and penetrative rape, placed food against a child's anus, and forced them to drink
01:00:16
urine. The prosecution shared these allegations with the court by airing excerpts of the
01:00:22
children's taped interviews, then questioning the children briefly via video link.
01:00:28
After this, Peter Ellis's defense barrista cross-examined them. Rob Harrison asked about positive
01:00:36
memories the children had of Peter and tried to expose ways that their evidence might have been contaminated by outside
01:00:43
sources, such as the abuse themed books provided to parents or conversations they might have overheard in the
01:00:50
community. [music] When Harrison told the children that Peter denied ever harming them, their
01:00:56
responses were mixed. That's not true, one said. [music] He did, said another. But one responded,
01:01:07
it's very hard to remember. I know very well some are true. And then I think, is
01:01:14
that one true or what? While questioning the eighth complainant, [music] Harrison asked her, "Can you remember
01:01:23
the first two tapes you made with DWS interviewer Kathy Crawford?" "We first learned about all the things
01:01:31
Peter did, [music] and then we came on screen and did it," the girl replied. "You learned it all before you came on
01:01:39
the [music] screen," Harrison clarified. "Yes, who taught it to you before you came on
01:01:46
the screen? The girl answered, "Kathy." And she told me what Peter did. Following this, the judge discharged
01:01:56
Ellis of the counts relating to this particular child. The prosecution's expert witness was a
01:02:04
child psychiatrist named Karen Zealus, who had supervised the social workers responsible for the children's
01:02:11
interviews. She provided the court with a list of behaviors that were characteristic of
01:02:16
child sexual abuse, including sleep disturbances, nightmares, toileting issues, mood changes, headaches, stomach
01:02:24
aches, sadness, crying, separation anxiety, sexualized play, and others. She explained that most children who had
01:02:35
been sexually abused failed to disclose at the time the abuse was happening and would initially deny when later
01:02:42
questioned about it. According to Dr. Zealous, the complainants in this case were credible and their behavior was
01:02:49
consistent with having been sexually abused. Under cross-examination, Rob Harrison
01:02:56
asked Dr. zealous about a television interview she'd done about the case a year earlier in which she'd been asked
01:03:02
if there was a danger parents might start imagining behavioral changes in their child after fear of sexual abuse
01:03:09
spread Dr. Zeal had answered yes there is questioned in the courtroom she claimed
01:03:18
not to remember this interview to counter Dr. zealous. The defense called Australian psychiatrist Keith
01:03:26
Laage, who said the behavioral changes described [music] weren't exclusive to suffering sexual abuse and could be all
01:03:34
part of normal child development. Some of Peter's former colleagues testified for the defense, as did seven
01:03:42
cray parents who still supported him. More had wanted to, but felt unable to do so given the heated nature of the
01:03:50
case. [music] Some had felt pressure from their community to have their children
01:03:55
interviewed and later regretted giving in, feeling that the interviews themselves were the only trauma their
01:04:02
children experienced related to the crash. Peter Ellis also sat in the witness box
01:04:08
to answer the charges laid against him. He spoke at length about his work at the
01:04:14
crash and the children there. Under an extensive cross-examination, the Crown attacked his credibility by
01:04:22
pointing out apparent inconsistencies in his testimony [music] and drew the jury's attention to opportunities he'd
01:04:28
had to be alone with children. They queried Peter about conversations he'd had with colleagues relating to
01:04:36
sexual matters, such as him once telling Janice Buckingham that he used a Polaroid camera to make pornography.
01:04:44
Peter Ellis explained that he liked to have people on and [music] would bait them with provocative claims.
01:04:51
His defense barrister pointed out that not one of the children in the case had [music] made a spontaneous disclosure of
01:04:58
abuse. They had only said they were abused after repeated questioning by authority figures.
01:05:04
Nor had any parents noticed any signs of trauma or evidence of abuse such as blood or injuries.
01:05:13
The jury retired to consider their verdict on Thursday, June 3, and spent almost 3 days deliberating.
01:05:21
They returned with the decision at 3:30 p.m. on Saturday, June 5. They had found Peter Ellis guilty on 16
01:05:31
out of 25 counts and accepted that he had sexually abused seven children, including those known by the pseudonyms
01:05:39
of Zelda Cyprus and Bart Dogwood. This abuse was sometimes committed in the presence of others at locations
01:05:47
outside of the crash, and Peter had also provided children for [music] abuse by others.
01:05:54
In sentencing, Justice Williamson described [music] the jury's verdict as obviously correct before informing Peter
01:06:02
Ellis that he would be going to prison [music] for 10 years. In the wake of Peter Ellis's conviction,
01:06:17
feelings throughout Christ Church were mixed. As far as some were concerned, a huge miscarriage of justice had just
01:06:25
taken place. And it was the result of a dangerous trend occurring both at home and more broadly around the world.
01:06:33
Thanks to a number of social shifts that had been taking place from the 1970s onwards, the issue of child sexual abuse
01:06:40
was being addressed and acknowledged more than it ever had been before. The activism of second-wave feminists
01:06:48
had shone a spotlight on topics that were previously hidden behind closed doors. Domestic violence, marital rape,
01:06:55
incest, and sexual assault. This created space for survivors to speak out and reframed the offenses as a
01:07:04
societal problem. This affected the attitude surrounding crimes against children too. In the
01:07:11
midentth century, some influential psychiatric theories had minimized or doubted children's reports of sexual
01:07:19
abuse. Between the 1940s and60s, child sexual abuse wasn't believed to be widespread
01:07:27
and was thought to only affect certain social groups. Some people even believed that abuse
01:07:33
caused no lasting harm. But by the 1970s and 1980s, attitudes were changing. Believed the children
01:07:44
became a rallying cry for child advocates around the world, and it was becoming widely accepted and understood
01:07:50
that there were predators out there who specifically targeted minors. Legal reforms started to strengthen
01:07:57
child protection agencies, and more professionals were trained to detect abuse indicators and interview child
01:08:04
victims. At the same time that social progress was bringing these issues to light and
01:08:11
granting more rights to women and children, a cultural anxiety kicked in during the 1980s.
01:08:18
With more women returning to work after having children, fears spread about what
01:08:23
that meant for changing family structures. Some of these fears centered around a
01:08:28
service that was now being used by more and more families, daycare. For the first time, many children were
01:08:36
being cared for by relative strangers outside of the home. As awareness grew around child sexual abuse, suspicion
01:08:45
began to land on those tasked with providing child care. Over time, this anxiety resulted in a
01:08:53
moral panic that became known as daycare sex abuse hysteria. It led to criminal investigations and
01:09:01
trials in the United States, England, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, where daycare providers were accused of
01:09:08
committing extensive sexual abuse. These cases often began with one parents concerns and grew as a kind of contagion
01:09:18
swept through a community. A fear that abuse might be missed led to child protection workers and law
01:09:25
enforcement officers treating initial suspicions as potentially massive conspiracies.
01:09:32
Although there have been cases of child care workers sexually abusing children, [music] cases that fell under the
01:09:39
umbrella of daycare sex abuse hysteria were often marked by a lack of physical evidence. an incredibly large number of
01:09:46
victims that only began to disclose under repeated questioning and pressure and typically featured bizarre,
01:09:53
implausible scenarios. Because child abuse was still becoming understood, investigators hadn't honed
01:10:01
their interview techniques when it came to potential victims. In several cases, children were interviewed many times
01:10:09
over months with interviewers sometimes asking leading or forced answer questions.
01:10:15
Children who eventually confirmed abuse were rewarded with praise and attention,
01:10:20
while those who said nothing had happened often weren't believed. Instead, they were questioned over and
01:10:27
over, being pressured to disclose. Moreover, the panic that spread through a community when rumors of abuse took
01:10:36
hold was known to cause what was called contamination in interviews. Children's answers could be influenced by
01:10:43
conversations they'd had with their parents, friends, or that they'd overheard. Research later showed that the
01:10:51
interviewing styles used in many of the daycare sex abuse hysteria cases could increase false reports, distort memory,
01:10:59
encourage children to guess, [music] and create narrative escalations where a story grew increasingly wild.
01:11:06
Developmental psychologists have found that young children are highly suggestible, especially under repeated
01:11:13
questioning by authority figures. Cambridge University professor Michael Lamb, an expert on interviewing child
01:11:20
abuse victims, has said that while children can be competent witnesses, they are susceptible to making errors
01:11:27
during interviews when they infer that an interviewer is looking for a particular answer.
01:11:33
Sometimes they want to help but can't understand the questions they are being asked. They can also become confused
01:11:41
about the source of their memories for particular events. Interviewers during the 1980s and early
01:11:48
1990s also made use of anatomically correct dolls which children could use to demonstrate abuse that they might
01:11:55
struggle to describe verbally. These dolls were used in the Christurch civic crash case.
01:12:03
They later became controversial for several reasons. Anatomically correct dolls could increase suggestability,
01:12:10
[music] leading children to guess at what an interviewer wanted when they handed them a doll that had genitals and
01:12:17
asked them to describe touching. They can also lead to an interviewer guessing at a child's demonstrations, which may
01:12:24
merely be a form of play or an ambiguous action. [music] Daycare sex abuse hysteria also
01:12:34
intersected with another moral anxiety taking place at the same time, the satanic panic.
01:12:41
Beginning in the USA in the 1980s, The Satanic Panic originated with the publication of a book titled Michelle
01:12:48
Remembers, co-authored by a Canadian psychiatrist and his patient Michelle, whom he later
01:12:55
married. The book detailed how Michelle recovered memories [music] of extreme physical and sexual abuse at the hands
01:13:01
of her mother, who worshiped Satan. Much of these claims were later debunked, but the book ignited a spark
01:13:10
throughout the US and the world. Conspiracy theories spread about so-called satanic cults abusing and
01:13:18
murdering children on mass with daycare centers seen as the base for many such groups.
01:13:25
Social workers, police investigators, child advocates, [music] and therapists began attending seminars by experts who
01:13:33
taught them how to identify cases of occult and ritual abuse. The children they questioned began to
01:13:39
reflect what these professionals had been taught, describing outlandish and extreme events [music] that couldn't be
01:13:46
substantiated, were often impossible, and had no basis in reality. Many trials resulted in convictions that
01:13:54
were later overturned or not guilty verdicts due to a lack of evidence. In the wake of these events, major
01:14:03
reforms were made to interview techniques in child abuse cases. These included the use of more open-ended
01:14:10
questions such as, "Tell me what happened." Leading [music] questions were avoided as were repeat interviews
01:14:18
and praise for giving particular answers was dropped. When Peter Ellis was arrested, New
01:14:29
Zealand and especially Christ Church had been experiencing a kind of satanic panic for a while.
01:14:35
Christ Church was a conservative city known for its grand cathedral, Englishstyle gardens, and Edwardian
01:14:42
architecture. Religious groups such as the Christian Heritage Party were vocal in their
01:14:48
opposition to social change. But new influences were slowly changing the face of Christ Church, including a strong
01:14:55
counterculture and artistic scene. At the same time, fear that had cropped up overseas about satanic cults was
01:15:03
spreading throughout New Zealand. Books, magazines, and other media shared stories about a cult abuse, and
01:15:11
individuals working in relevant fields began hearing more about the topic from overseas colleagues.
01:15:18
An American therapist named Pamela Klene, who was a witness in a number of ritual abuse cases in the US, spoke at a
01:15:26
conference in Wellington about diagnosing ritual abuse. She was later found to have exaggerated
01:15:33
and even falsified her qualifications. In September 1991, 11 weeks before Ms. Magnolia called the crash to report a
01:15:43
possible case of abuse. Christ Church was hosting a family violence conference. Included in the schedule were some
01:15:51
workshops about ritual abuse. Two counselors from the city of Wellington told attendees that there
01:15:58
were middleclass pedophile rings operating throughout the country. Even though no actual cases had been
01:16:05
uncovered, they had interviewed three victims and 20 others had sought help. They pointed to similar cases in the
01:16:12
United States where there was talk of satanic ritual abuse taking place on a grand scale.
01:16:20
On the same night that the conference began, New Zealand's 60 Minutes program ran a story about a pedophile ring that
01:16:27
was rumored to be present in Christ Church. The rumors dated back to 1988 when a
01:16:33
doctor first reported that child patients were telling horrific stories about sexual abuse perpetrated by
01:16:39
multiple offenders against groups of victims. After repeated interviews with police,
01:16:46
the children began to report being taken to private homes and gay bars where they
01:16:51
were abused, filmed, and threatened. Lots of adults were present as well as lots of other children.
01:16:59
They described vehicles driven by the offenders and gave physical descriptions of their abusers.
01:17:06
Principles of schools throughout the city were warned that their students were possibly being recruited for a
01:17:12
quote child pornography ring. In August 1988, 30 police officers executed simultaneous search warrants at
01:17:21
six different properties. An elderly man at one residence was found to possess naked photos of
01:17:28
underage girls and was subsequently arrested. None of the other searches produced
01:17:34
results. Although police worked hard, they couldn't find any evidence of the pedophile ring everyone was talking
01:17:41
about. But rumors of the ring continued to circulate with some Christurch residents certain that there was an
01:17:49
underground community of gay men who were producing and distributing child abuse material.
01:17:55
This persisted [music] despite the police reassuring them that they had investigated the case extensively and
01:18:01
had even looked into a number of high-profile businessmen whose names had been reported.
01:18:07
The case was still sending fear through the community in 1991, prompting 60 Minutes to cover the story in September
01:18:14
of that year. Journalist Melanie Reed spoke to various experts who assured her there was a serious problem, though they
01:18:23
were unable to provide evidence of the pedophile ring in question. The episode added to the climate of fear
01:18:30
that had parents convinced that there was a wellorganized, well-hidden group of child molesters operating with
01:18:36
impunity throughout their city. Less than 3 months later, the Christ Church Civic Crash would be investigated
01:18:44
for crimes that sounded a lot like these. The subject of ritual abuse was one that
01:18:54
a number of parents in the civic crash case were familiar with. Quite a few of the complainant parents
01:19:00
worked in child abuse related professions such as social work, therapy, and counseling.
01:19:06
Of the seven complainants whose evidence resulted in convictions, three had one or more parents who worked in those
01:19:13
fields. In a climate of heightened awareness, parents with these backgrounds may have
01:19:19
been more inclined to interpret certain child behaviors through an abuse lens. Moreover, in these circles, there was
01:19:27
the possibility of a professional consensus developing that abuse was definitely happening.
01:19:34
Ms. Magnolia, the mother who initially alleged that Peter Ellis had molested her son Jeffrey, was seen by some to
01:19:41
have a fixation with sexual abuse. She had recovered memories of her own childhood abuse and went on to write a
01:19:49
pamphlet that warned about the epidemic of child abuse. Because Jeffrey never made any
01:19:55
allegations of abuse by Peter to the police, he wasn't one of the complainants at Peter's trial.
01:20:02
But his mother had made sure to get Jeffrey far away from Peter and the other CRA employees, withdrawing him
01:20:08
from the Christurch civic crash at the end of 1991. She subsequently enrolled Jeffrey at
01:20:16
another crash with workers there noting Ms. Magnolia's extreme fear [music] and paranoia. She would ask the childare
01:20:24
workers there not to let Jeffree play near the fence because there's a pedophile ring and they're out to get
01:20:30
us. The employees took her [music] concerns seriously, listening to her and reassuring her. But then in September
01:20:38
1992, she accused a male worker of sexually abusing Jeffrey. [music] This complaint was handled very
01:20:46
differently to the Christ Church Civic Crash case with detectives and CRA administrators keeping the matter
01:20:52
tightly under wraps while it was investigated. There were no public meetings or calls
01:20:58
from Ms. Magnolia to other parents. After detectives looked into the case, they found no evidence to support the
01:21:06
complaint and it was dropped. Detective Colony was not involved in that case. A closer examination of his
01:21:15
involvement with the Christurch civic crash case led to a number of concerns. His first notes written when he took
01:21:23
down Ms. Magnolia's complaint featured a comment about Peter Ellis. quote, "He is
01:21:29
apparently homosexual." From the outset, [music] he appeared to consider Peter Ellis a
01:21:35
dangerous man, despite no physical evidence that he had harmed any children. Although Ms. Magnolia's complaint didn't
01:21:44
lead anywhere, the case was reopened after a second child known as Mandy Arbutus made a disclosure.
01:21:52
Although Mandy hadn't attended the crash, she said she was abused when she and her mother went to pick up her
01:21:58
younger siblings. Detective Eid found this allegation particularly alarming and thought it
01:22:04
looked really serious. But Mandy's claims never resulted in any charges against Peter Alice. Her mother
01:22:13
withdrew Mandy from the case and made a complaint to the police. at the same time.
01:22:19
She reported that Detective Eid had propositioned her. He later admitted to this, saying that
01:22:26
he'd returned home after drinking heavily and received a phone call from Missutus.
01:22:31
During that call, he quote stupidly propositioned her. The next day, he'd tried to pass it off
01:22:39
as a joke, but he had meant it. Detective Eid later went on to have romantic relationships with two other
01:22:47
mothers involved in the case, though he said these occurred well after Peter Ellis's trial and incarceration.
01:22:59
Peter Ellis had faced a lot of harassment and intimidation ever since the allegations against him first aired.
01:23:05
His life was repeatedly threatened and a bullet was even mailed to him. On one occasion, he was physically jumped and
01:23:13
beaten up by four men who broke into his home. After he was incarcerated, it was
01:23:19
expected that the danger would only increase. For the first month that he was incarcerated in Christ Church Men's
01:23:27
Prison, commonly referred to as Paparua, Peter received constant abuse from other
01:23:32
inmates. They taunted him to hang himself 24 hours a day. But by the end of August, the situation
01:23:41
had calmed somewhat as the other men at Paparua got to know Peter. A number of them were familiar with the
01:23:48
case and didn't think Peter was guilty. One notorious individual who'd watched the trial coverage on the news was
01:23:56
overheard remarking, "That poor [ __ ] has been set up." One day, a fellow inmate approached
01:24:04
Peter and said, "My [music] mom thinks you're innocent." Some of the guards were sympathetic as
01:24:10
well. One in particular told Peter he didn't belong in Paparoua before letting him out of his cell to do some odd jobs
01:24:18
on the sly. Peter had never doubted that the entire matter would eventually be resolved in
01:24:25
his favor. From the moment he'd learned that a child had made a comment about not liking his black penis, he assumed
01:24:33
everyone would have to see that [music] there was no case at all. Even when he found himself on trial in
01:24:39
the high court, Peter was certain his name would be cleared. He never could have imagined that the end result would
01:24:46
be a decade in prison and still couldn't believe anyone would think him capable of molesting children. [music]
01:24:54
Although some had thought it suspicious that he'd opted to work in a crash over an animal shelter when he was a known
01:25:00
animal lover, Peter had chosen the crash because it was an easy walk from his house.
01:25:06
The animal shelter would require him to catch a bus every day, which he couldn't
01:25:10
afford at the time. It was true that he sometimes had inappropriate conversations with colleagues at work
01:25:17
and occasionally faced reprimands for being [music] too boisterous with the children, but overall, Peter had been a
01:25:24
popular and beloved member of the CRA community. Some of the accusations made against
01:25:31
him, like the claims that he had locked children in cages with lions and killed a boy named Andrew, were so patently
01:25:38
false that they weren't mentioned at trial. But even less outlandish claims could be refuted by basic facts.
01:25:46
Several children had identified an old boarding house where Peter had lived as a place where he'd abused them after
01:25:53
parents had taken them there. But Peter had moved out of that house years earlier. In some cases, years before the
01:26:01
complainant children were even born. In fact, only one complainant had attended the crash when Peter had lived
01:26:09
there. Four of the complainants said Peter had driven them in his car to various
01:26:15
locations where they were abused. But Peter didn't own a car and couldn't drive.
01:26:23
And although police had pointed to areas inside the crash where he could have abused children out of sight, the actual
01:26:29
layout of those locations made such abuse highly unlikely. The toilets where he was alleged to have
01:26:36
abused kids were tiny child-sized spaces. Although the adult crash workers would
01:26:42
go in there to assist small children in using the toilet, there was no room for them to hide and they could be easily
01:26:49
seen by other employees inside the crash. A kitchen where he was thought to have
01:26:55
committed crimes was equally difficult to access without witnesses. Plus, the seven complainants whose
01:27:02
accusations resulted in his conviction [music] had named 21 other children as either observers or participants. Yet,
01:27:10
none of those 21 children ever confirmed any of the allegations. Peter Ellis and his supporters were
01:27:17
hoping that these facts and others would help him find a way out of prison. In late July 1994, Peter appealed his
01:27:29
conviction on the basis that none of the 21 children cited by complainants as witnesses ever verified the allegations.
01:27:38
Representing Peter was barristister Graeme Pankhurst, QC, who argued that the guilty verdicts were unreasonable
01:27:44
because the complainant's evidence wasn't credible. He pointed out all of the inconsistencies in the children's
01:27:51
testimony and allegations. Pankhurst also argued that there had been a general miscarriage of justice.
01:27:58
The trial judge had limited the videotaped evidence and allowed the jury to keep transcripts [music] of the
01:28:04
children's interviews that had been edited by the crown. But shortly after the appeal began, it
01:28:11
was abruptly paused due to a bombshell revelation. Zelda Cyprus, the eldest of the
01:28:18
complaintants and widely seen as the most credible, had retracted her allegations.
01:28:25
After learning that Peter was appealing his conviction, Zelda's mother had told her daughter that Peter was saying that
01:28:31
the children had lied. To Miss Cypress's mind, it was further evidence that Peter
01:28:36
Ellis was a bad person. But she noticed that when she told Zelda this, her daughter was silent.
01:28:45
Zelda, who was now a pre-teen, said that she'd wanted to tell her mother the truth for a while. She was just waiting
01:28:52
for the right opportunity. It finally presented itself after Zelda got into an argument with a friend at
01:28:59
school, which led to the two girls mothers having a heated phone conversation. The other girl's mother called a Zelda a
01:29:06
liar. After Miss Cyprus hung up the phone, she had a heart-to-he heart conversation
01:29:12
with Zelda about the importance of telling the truth. Zelda grew visibly distressed and said,
01:29:19
"I want to tell you about Peter and they were lies." According to Zelda, during her
01:29:27
interviews, she had said the things she thought her mother had wanted to hear. The lies had started out small, but grew
01:29:35
progressively bigger. Zelda wanted to share her retraction with the court to help Peter.
01:29:43
Upon learning this news, Peter asked his lawyers, "Is she all right? Are her parents
01:29:50
supporting her?" Although Zelda's new testimony was entered into evidence, the appellet
01:29:56
judges rejected her new statements. Such retractions were common in child abuse cases. They said Zelda was most
01:30:06
likely in denial and had convinced herself that she'd lied during the interviews as a way to remove the
01:30:11
traumatic case from her life. Still, they quashed Peter Ellis's three convictions that related to Zelda. They
01:30:20
upheld all 13 of his remaining convictions and his 10-year prison sentence. Since this date, Zelda Cyprus has always
01:30:30
maintained that she lied about Peter abusing her due to feeling pressure. She and her family say they were pressured
01:30:37
by the police and the crown prosecutor in an unprofessional way and said New Zealand's Ministry of Justice [music]
01:30:44
has never contacted them about Zelda's retraction. In February 1999, almost [music] 6 years
01:30:54
into his sentence, Peter Ellis became eligible for parole. Appearing before the parole board, Peter
01:31:01
stated, "I would like to thank the board for the opportunity to appear here today. I cannot accept any parole that
01:31:09
you could offer me because the board can only release me as a guilty man. I am a human being and of course I very
01:31:17
much want my freedom but I simply cannot accept it if [music] it is to be given on the basis that I am a guilty man.
01:31:25
I am not a guilty man. I am an innocent man. In light of this statement the parole
01:31:35
board had no choice but to refuse parole. 5 months later, Peter Ellis tried for a
01:31:42
second appeal. The court found that while there was no certainty that a miscarriage of justice
01:31:48
had taken place, some of the issues raised, such as the reliability of the children's interviews and whether they
01:31:55
might have been contaminated by parents' questions, might benefit from a royal commission into the matter.
01:32:02
A royal commission wasn't called, but in March 2000, New Zealand's then Minister
01:32:08
of Justice established a ministerial inquiry into the conduct of the children's interviews.
01:32:14
This was somewhat more limited in scope than a royal commission and wouldn't allow for witnesses [music] to be
01:32:20
compelled to testify or cross-examined a new. The inquiry would be led by Sir Thomas
01:32:27
Eichelborn, a judge who'd previously served [music] as the Chief Justice of New Zealand.
01:32:34
One year later, the Eichelborn report was delivered. Sir Eelbour found that while the
01:32:40
children's interviews hadn't been perfect, they were generally of good quality, especially for the time.
01:32:48
In fact, New Zealand's interviewing approach for child victims in 1991 was sometimes ahead of overseas practices.
01:32:56
While there were some weaknesses in the investigation, particularly regarding the way some parents had questioned
01:33:02
their children too much, Sir Bor concluded this hadn't significantly affected the case's outcome.
01:33:10
One international expert who assisted with the report found that the key complainants hadn't been seriously
01:33:16
affected by contamination. That is by hearing other children's stories via parents or general conversations that
01:33:24
might have influenced their own statements. In conclusion, [music] the inquiry did not find grounds to
01:33:32
believe that Peter Ellis's convictions were unsafe and did [music] not recommend a pardon.
01:33:41
By this stage, Peter Ellis had completed his sentence. He was released from prison on Wednesday, February 2, 2000,
01:33:49
and moved to a small beach community where his mother and sister resided. Although he had his freedom, he hadn't
01:33:57
managed to clear his name, and that was something that he desperately wanted. He now had a number of high-profile
01:34:05
supporters who were eager to help in his quest. In 2001, author Linley Hood published a
01:34:12
book about the moral panic regarding ritual abuse in New Zealand and [music] Peter Ellis's case in particular.
01:34:20
In her book, Linley Hood coined a number of pseudonyms for complainants and their
01:34:24
parents, which we have used throughout this episode. titled A City Possessed. It was a
01:34:32
comprehensive examination of the circumstances leading up to and including Peter's trial as well as the
01:34:38
events that followed. As Hood described it, Christurch was a city on the edge, primed for a case such
01:34:45
as the Christ Church civic crash, with rumors of ritual abuse having steadily built throughout the city during the
01:34:52
1980s. A city possessed became highly acclaimed, winning the top prize for non-fiction and the reader's choice
01:35:00
award at the 2002 New Zealand Book Awards. It won over new supporters for Peter Ellis, including the former leader of
01:35:08
the New Zealand National Party, the country's centerright political party. A number of prominent journalists also
01:35:17
spoke out in their support of Peter Ellis, including print journalist Martin Vanain, who sat through the entire
01:35:23
trial, and Melanie Reed, the reporter who had put together the 60-minute story about a pedophile ring in Christ Church
01:35:31
just weeks before allegations against Peter were first made. During the 2000s, the fight to acquit
01:35:38
Peter Ellis continued. Between 2003 and 2014, there were three petitions for a royal commission into the case, though
01:35:48
no royal commission was ever established. On Thursday, July 25, 2019, Peter Ellis
01:35:58
lodged an appeal to New Zealand's Supreme Court. He was now 61 years old and battling bladder cancer. His lawyers
01:36:08
argued that evidence in the 1993 case was flawed, especially testimony from experts regarding children's behavior
01:36:16
indicating abuse. Research about interviewing children that had emerged in the intervening
01:36:22
years also raised concerns about the evidence used by the crown. More than 3 years later, the Supreme
01:36:30
Court reached a decision. It highlighted two main problems in the original trial.
01:36:37
The testimony of crown witness Dr. Karen Zealus had gone beyond what the law allowed when giving evidence that the
01:36:44
children's behaviors were consistent with sexual abuse. This evidence was deemed to be
01:36:50
unbalanced, lacking alternative explanations for the children's behavior. The other issue was that the jury had
01:36:58
not been properly informed of the risk of children's memories or accounts having been contaminated by multiple
01:37:05
interviews, questioning by parents, and discussions between the children. The court found that a miscarriage of
01:37:13
justice had taken place while emphasizing that its judgment was not to be read as a criticism of the
01:37:20
complainants, their parents, or those involved in the investigation and trial. On Friday, October 7, 2022, more than 30
01:37:31
years after Peter Ellis was first arrested, the court [music] quashed all of his remaining convictions, clearing
01:37:38
his name. Peter was not present for this long awaited result. He had died 3 years
01:37:46
earlier from terminal bladder cancer [music] less than 2 months after he'd filed his final bid for appeal.
01:37:54
Ordinarily in New Zealand, courts have ruled that an individual's interest in a judicial hearing ends if they die,
01:38:01
putting a stop to any hearings in process. Given the exceptional nature of Peter
01:38:07
Ellis's case, the Supreme Court granted Lee for his appeal to be heard despite [music] his death, marking the first
01:38:14
time that a New Zealand court had overturned a conviction postuously. Peter's mother, who had been his
01:38:21
strongest and most steadfast [music] supporter, did not live to see her son exonerated either. Leslie Ellis had died
01:38:29
approximately 1 month before the Supreme Court delivered its ruling. Peter's brother Mark and sister Tanya
01:38:37
welcomed the news on their behalf with Mark telling reporters outside the court. We're just proud of him. We're
01:38:45
just proud of the person he was. We never doubted he was innocent. [music] And that was it.
01:38:53
The parents of the complainants had a very different reaction, releasing a statement to share their disappointment
01:38:59
in the court's decision. It read in part, "The trauma of not being believed over the years takes its
01:39:07
toll. The court of public opinion is often illinformed and the facts are lost. Our children deserved to be
01:39:15
[music] safe in the care of adults. They were not. For the complainants and their families,
01:39:26
the ongoing focus on the civic crash case was often ret-raumatizing. As public opinion swayed in favor of
01:39:34
Peter Ellis, some individuals lost any trust [music] they might have had in the media and felt totally silenced.
01:39:41
In May 2022, as Peter Ellis's appeal was underway before the Supreme Court, a female complainant, now aged in her 30s,
01:39:50
spoke to journalist Joe Malcolm about her suffering. She attended the crash from 18 months to
01:39:57
5 years old and said she still had many clear memories of Peter and how he made her feel. Quote, "Not being believed is
01:40:06
very difficult, and I lean on the fact the [music] courts have believed me, and I get some reassurance from that.
01:40:14
Disclosing was a scary and vulnerable thing that I did somewhat reluctantly. It's certainly not my experience that I
01:40:22
was led by my parents. We never ever discussed it and it certainly wasn't discussed with each other as children as
01:40:30
has been claimed. It was like an unwritten agreement. We didn't talk about it. This complainant told Joe Malcolm that
01:40:39
the abuse continued to impact her as an adult, affecting her relationships and making her feel voiceless.
01:40:48
In 2003, the complainant known as Bart Dogwood told the Dominion Post. We were there. We know it happened. It's
01:40:57
not easy to live with, but I could live with it if everyone didn't keep bringing
01:41:02
it up all the time. The only closure I want is for Peter Ellis to admit he did it.
01:41:10
Some people close to the case have wondered if some children who did disclose abuse had been sexually
01:41:16
assaulted but by a person other than Peter Ellis. In the podcast series Delve by
01:41:22
journalist Melanie Reed, Gay Davidson, the CRA's supervisor, spoke of something troubling she saw while reviewing the
01:41:30
children's videotaped interviews. One girl who took part in six-hourong interviews and disclosed abuse by Peter
01:41:39
seemed relaxed and disinterested when asked about the crash. The interviewers then questioned her older brother, who
01:41:46
had never attended the crash, and he disclosed that he had been abused by an uncle.
01:41:52
The interviewers brought the girl back in for a final 10-minute interview where they asked about her uncle.
01:41:59
The girl sat frozen and spoke in a low voice as she disclosed that her uncle had abused her too.
01:42:08
To Gay Davidson, there was a stark difference between her relaxed demeanor in the cray interviews and her scared
01:42:15
one in this final conversation. According to Gay's recollection, the girl's family opted against charging the
01:42:23
uncle with anything as they didn't want their child to be a multi-abuse victim. They chose to focus on the charges
01:42:30
relating to abuse at the crash instead. This complainant's allegations against Peter Ellis were discharged [music] at
01:42:38
the trial. The four women who were charged alongside Peter had their lives permanently affected. Also, despite not
01:42:47
being convicted, they had to leave careers they loved and give up working with children. They faced [music]
01:42:55
discrimination from members of the public, finding themselves shunned and judged despite having their charges
01:43:01
dropped. The closure of the crash impacted other employees, too, [music] as well as an entire community that
01:43:08
depended on it. In March 1995, the four women and six other colleagues who also lost their jobs were awarded $1 million
01:43:18
by the employment court for unjustified dismissal. [music] This was later reduced to $80,000, which
01:43:25
in some cases wasn't enough to cover legal costs. Carol Evans was a Christurch city
01:43:32
counselor from 1986 [music] until 2007 and was serving on the council at the time of Peter Ellis's trial. In 2015, as
01:43:43
debate was raging about the case once more, [music] Carol called a local Talkback radio show to share her
01:43:49
personal regrets. At [music] times I was the city council representative on the crash committee
01:43:56
and I just believed that he was innocent all the time. [music] I met him, I knew
01:44:02
him, I'd seen him in action. He was flamboyant. He was colorful, but I always believed he was innocent.
01:44:11
When the radio host asked why she hadn't spoken up at the time if she believed in
01:44:16
Peter's innocence, Carol replied, because we were told not to. I just felt if I don't ring now, I'm going to wear
01:44:26
this guilt for the rest of my life. Reflecting on what she would say to Peter Ellis if given the chance, Carol
01:44:35
said, "I guess I'd say that I'm sorry on behalf of the city. It's a pity that some of us didn't [music] speak out.
01:44:44
I just have always felt sorry every time it raises its head." And I [music] guess the more you look at
01:44:52
the case, it was just pure panic, pure conjecture. And people consolidated themselves one way or the other into two
01:45:00
groups. [music] Those who believed and those who didn't [music]