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Our episodes deal with serious and often distressing incidents. If you feel at any time you need support, please
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contact your local crisis center. For suggested phone numbers for confidential support and for a more detailed list of
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content warnings, [music] please see the show notes for this episode on your app
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or on our website. 45-year-old [music] FBI negotiator Byron Sage was mortified. A Vietnam War veteran who [music] had
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been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for almost 25 years, [music]
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he had a wealth of experience when it came to negotiating hostage situations. He'd worked in fugitive, extortion, and
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organized crime investigations and knew how to navigate a crisis. [music] Sage had spent hours trying to coax
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David Koresh and his followers from that compound and had helped put together a surrender plan that looked set to end
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the disastrous siege that had started under the ATF less than 3 days earlier. By the afternoon of Tuesday, March 2,
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1993, both the Branch Davidians and the FBI negotiators were anticipating a peaceful and imminent resolution with
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David Koresh promising that everyone inside the compound would surrender in exchange for his message being broadcast
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on a national television station. But [music] when Byron Sage called into Mel Carnal just before 6:00 p.m. to find
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out what was taking so long, he was met with some devastating news. >> [music] >> Koresh's right-hand man, Steve
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Schneider, informed Sage that David Koresh had changed his mind. I just talked to them. He's apparently
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going through a lot of anguish and what the guy just went through. I've never seen anything like it before, but he
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wanted me to remind you to read Psalms chapter 2. Then he wanted me to read to you Revelation 18. Steve, but what does
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this Did you ever read the story of Christ when he hung on the cross where he actually perspirations of drops of
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blood because of the anguish? Mhm. Can I just read Revelation 18 to you? Y- Y- just a minute, Steve.
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>> Everything is ready to go right now, but all of a sudden, I mean, he started praying. He gave us his word. I know
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that. [music] I'm aware of that. >> That after the message was played >> but what if there is a higher power than
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you and I that speaks to an individual? What do you do? That's the question. This is why he said, "Be aware of who
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you're dealing with." Just remember that David told the world I understand that.
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>> that he was coming out. >> Can I read Revelation 18 to you? Steve, I wanted to come out. I I I understand
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>> When is he planning to come out? He said his God says that he is to wait. How
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long? How long does he I I Look, I know in this world you don't believe that there is a supernatural power that
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speaks audibly to a person. Is David a man of his word? He always has been. >> What does trust [music] mean to you?
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Exactly what it means to you. >> I got commanders and they are losing trust in me.
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>> [music] >> Steve repeatedly reiterated that Koresh was awaiting further instruction from
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God and that nothing would happen until those instructions arrived. Embarrassed [music] and bitterly
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disappointed, Byron Sage had to return to his commanders with the news that no one would be leaving Mount Carmel that
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night. >> [music] >> The anger the FBI leaders felt about David Koresh's last-minute change of
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mind was reflected in the crackdown that followed. The head of the agency's hostage rescue
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team informed the siege commander, [music] quote, "It's time to teach him a lesson."
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>> [music] >> There was debate amongst the various FBI leaders as to how to proceed from here.
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They didn't all see the situation eye to eye, with different units arguing for different approaches.
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The Hostage Rescue Team, or HRT, was an elite tactical unit trained to take action.
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Their instincts were typically to rush in and get a situation under control. As one HRT member told journalists from
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ABS's Frontline program, "A crime's been committed, and I'm talking murder charges. You've got to do
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something about it. You cannot just let those people sit." The HRT's role would be to surround and
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secure a scene before going in and using force if necessary. This style led to them sometimes being
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called ninjas. At Mount Carmel, they took up multiple positions from all sides, situating
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[music] themselves about 300 yd, or 275 m, from the building. In contrast, the FBI's team of
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negotiators were not working directly at the scene. Their headquarters were in an airplane
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hangar 5 and 1/2 miles away, and their approach was very different from the HRT.
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Focused on building trust with subjects through talk and a steady pace, their goal was to convince the Branch
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Davidians to come out rather than rushing in to take them. They couldn't actually see what was
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going on inside the compound and would rely on reports shared by the Branch Davidians [music] and their colleagues
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instead. Negotiator Gary Nasner was concerned when he overheard Dick Rogers, the head
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of the HRT, telling Siege Commander Jeff Jamar that it was time to teach David Koresh a lesson.
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Rogers wanted to send his team in stating, "My people can get in and secure that
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place in 15 minutes." Gary Nasner argued against this pointing out that Koresh had still been releasing
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women and children overnight. Perhaps he might continue to release more even if he wasn't ready to
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surrender himself. The negotiators felt that storming in with force would undermine [music] the
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delicate level of trust they'd work to build with Koresh and his followers. Ultimately, Siege Commander Jeff Jamar
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sided with the negotiators [music] agreeing it was too soon to send in the HRT. Jamar was acting as special agent in
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charge of operations in accordance with FBI procedure. According to the Bureau's policies, when
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a major event like Waco took place, it would be run by the highest ranking local agent.
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Jeff Jamar was that agent at the nearby office in San Antonio. Although he believed that it was too
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soon to cease negotiations with Koresh, Jamar was also inclined to agree [music]
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with Dick Rogers that the religious leader needed to be taught a lesson. He ordered that some of the Bradley
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armored vehicles [music] that had been set up around the perimeter of Mount Carmel be moved closer to the building.
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This would function as a visible reminder of the FBI's presence and power at the scene.
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To further this image of [music] greater control, the FBI also built fake sniper
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positions, while also having genuine snipers set up at less visible locations. Inside Mount Carmel, some of the Branch
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Davidians were just as disappointed and confused by David Koresh's abrupt change
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of mind as the FBI agents. >> [music] >> There had been an impromptu celebration
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the night before, with members raiding the refrigerator and pouring alcoholic beverages.
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They toasted the impending end to the siege with stale cake and whiskey, and sang songs to celebrate. [music]
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David Koresh hadn't joined in as he'd been confined upstairs with his shooting injury.
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At some point, Steve Schneider had told everyone to stop celebrating, [music] adding,
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"David's mad with you guys. >> [music] >> Why are you letting down the message?"
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When news came late the following day that they wouldn't be leaving after all, some Branch [music] Davidians wondered
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if their sinful behavior the previous night was to blame. David Thibodeau later wrote in his
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memoir that he believed Koresh's explanation that God had told him to wait, as he knew Koresh to be entirely
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sincere in his beliefs. >> [music] >> But David knew that the change of plans would not go down well with the federal
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authorities. >> [music] >> The Branch Davidians noticed when the FBI moved the Bradley tanks [music]
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closer to their home and then used them to crush two outbuildings on the property.
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They also [music] rammed into a station wagon that had been left behind by a journalist from the Waco [music] Tribune
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Herald. These actions were undoubtedly intimidating, [music] and spokespeople inside the compound protested about them
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to negotiators over the phone. >> [music] >> I heard some crunching or something. I
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looked out the window and I see one of your tanks ran over a guard shack. I thought that was pretty cute, Steve
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Schneider [music] said. What now? A negotiator replied in shock. >> [music] >> You're kidding. I know they've been
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ordered not to go in there. The FBI had cut off the Branch [music] Davidians phone lines to all but their
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negotiators. So those inside the compound had no way of contacting the outside world.
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>> [music] >> They wanted to go to the media to share their story, but had no way of doing so.
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>> [music] >> Nor were the media permitted near them. Reporters from across the country and
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even overseas had flocked to Waco after the botched ATF raid led to extensive bloodshed, [music]
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prompting the FBI to set up a designated press area 2 miles from Mount Carmel. It was next to a roadblock in the middle
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of a farm-to-market road. The compound could be glimpsed in the distance, but journalists [music]
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weren't permitted any closer than that. Beginning on Wednesday, March 3, the FBI
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held daily press conferences to update [music] both the media and the public on the siege.
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There wasn't much to report [music] aside from the fact that negotiators were still trying to convince David
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Koresh to surrender without [music] success. Officials repeatedly referred to the
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Branch Davidians as a cult, a word that held loaded significance and [music] called to mind previous tragedies such
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as the Manson family murders in 1969 and the Jonestown Massacre in 1978, covered in episode 60 of [music] Case
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File. Moreover, the Branch Davidians were described as militant religious zealots
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who were dangerous to the public. The Branch Davidians [music] watched and listened to these press conferences via
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their televisions and radios inside Mount Carmel. With little [music] else to go on and
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unable to speak to the subjects of the siege themselves, journalists took to wandering around the city of Waco.
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They chatted to locals to see if anyone [music] had personal anecdotes about the
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so-called cult currently holed up in their compound. >> [music] >> People they spoke to said they found the
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group a bit strange, but not scary. They definitely weren't considered dangerous.
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Occasionally, reporters and photographers tried to sneak closer to Mount Carmel to see what was happening.
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When caught doing so, they were arrested [music] and handcuffed. In one call with negotiators, Steve
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Schneider voiced his distress at the situation, stating, "The press is so far back, you [music]
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guys could come and blow us away and give any story you wanted." As the days went by, the roadside press
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area grew and was dubbed Media City. There were rows and rows of TV trucks lining both sides of the road. Reporters
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set up tents and barbecue grills while they waited for something to happen. Journalist Carlton Stowers later told
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author Jeff Guinn, quote, "All around Mount Carmel, there were so many agents and army guys and
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negotiators and equipment and tanks and everything, [music] that it looked like our government was
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going to war with another country." Soon, members of the public began showing up at a hill just outside Media
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City to join the growing circus. Most were protesters demonstrating solidarity with the Branch Davidians,
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while others saw a business opportunity. They sold t-shirts and homemade souvenirs like coffee cups, baseball
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[music] hats, and postcards emblazoned with anti- or pro-government messages and dark jokes.
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One read, "Mount Carmel erupts, a message from God, the sinful episode." Another read,
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"Hey Vern, weird [ __ ] come out." >> [music] >> The first letter of each of the last
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four words was capitalized to spell out Waco. One individual who showed up in support
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of the Branch Davidians was a 24-year-old Army veteran named Timothy McVeigh, who'd driven over from
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Michigan. >> [music] >> He'd already been angered by the notorious Ruby Ridge standoff less than
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a year earlier and saw the Waco siege as another example of government overreach
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and oppression. [music] Sitting on the hood of his car, McVeigh sold bumper stickers with messages
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[music] such as, "Ban guns, make the streets safe for a government takeover." And, [music]
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"Fear the government that fears your gun." Meanwhile, FBI negotiators continued their efforts with David Koresh.
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Often, [music] their calls with him turned into religious sermons with Koresh preaching for up to an hour at a
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time about God's plan for the end of the world and the unlocking of the seven seals.
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Some of the negotiators took to calling these one-sided conversations Bible babble.
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They interjected and tried to return Koresh's focus to the more practical and immediate matters at hand.
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When pressed as to when he might emerge with his followers, Koresh replied, "I'm dealing with my father now, not
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your [music] systematic, bureaucratic system of government. The negotiators expressed their concerns
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about Koresh's bullet wounds and his general health. Koresh suspected that he'd lost about
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three pints of blood, but was doing all right. He was being [music] treated by one of
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the Branch Davidians who was a nurse. She reported that he was doing well. His temperature was normal and his
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complexion was good. The other Branch Davidians who [music] sustained injuries in the botched raid
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were also doing fine. Despite Koresh's refusal to leave Mount Carmel, he did agree to send out a
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couple more children. A 12-year-old boy left the compound on Wednesday, March 3, and an 11-year-old
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boy followed the next day. By the end of the siege's fifth day, 21 children in total had been released,
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[music] ranging in age from 5 months old to 12 years. Their parents had pinned notes to their
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clothing with instructions about relatives or friends who should be called to take custody of them.
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All of these children were assessed at a local Child Protective Services facility.
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Joyce Sparks, who had previously investigated the Branch Davidians after allegations of child abuse were made,
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noted, "They are in remarkably good psychological condition [music] considering what they've gone through.
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They appear very healthy, uh well-behaved, and well-educated. None of them appear to have been in any
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way abused or neglected." However, >> [music] >> an associate professor of psychology and
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behavioral sciences disagreed somewhat. He would later testify at Congress, quote,
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"They believed that they would all be attacked and that the outsiders would kill everyone in the compound and that
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Koresh would come back and kill the bad guys, uniting everyone in heaven. All of the young girls were being
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prepared to be David's wives. One of the older girls expressed [music] distress now that she had been released
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from the compound that she would not be able to be picked by David as one of his
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brides. On Tuesday, [music] March 9, a week and a half after the siege began, the Texas
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Department of Protective and Regulatory Services [music] officially stripped the
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children's parents of custody rights. To regain custody, [music] they would have to pass state tests.
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>> [music] >> Friday, March 5 began positively with Koresh sending out a 9-year-old girl.
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It seemed that the negotiators were making slow but steady progress. However, concerns arose when authorities
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read the note the girl's mother had pinned to her jacket. It was addressed to the girl's older
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sister and explained that by the time she read the message, the mother would be dead.
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She added that once all of the children were out, the adults would die. This again raised concerns about a
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possible mass suicide. Whenever the FBI queried David Koresh or Steve Schneider about this possibility,
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they reassured them there was no such plan. Koresh's conversations with the FBI sometimes took on a violent tone.
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At one point, he told negotiators that he and his followers had been planning for a confrontation with the government
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since 1985. He threatened to blow the FBI's tanks to pieces. Still trying to build a rapport with
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Koresh, the FBI offered to send in a suture kit so his wounds could be treated, [music]
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as well as photos and videos of the children who'd left the compound to prove they were doing well.
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Koresh accepted this [music] offer. These items were delivered to the bullet-riddled front doors of Mount
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Carmel, along with a video camera so the Branch Davidians could record videos of
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their own. The negotiators hoped that this might provide a decent window into life inside
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the compound. And it did. Steve Schneider filmed the injured Koresh seated on the floor [music] with
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his back pressed against a wall. He wore a white tank top [music] and gray tracksuit pants. His electric
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guitar was propped up next to him, and children could be heard playing [music] in the background.
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Steve began by asking Koresh if there was anything he'd like to say. Koresh responded,
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We just thought we'd kind of break the ice and allow people to see just exactly you know, what kind of people we have
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here. I'd start off first of all with my oldest son. His name is Cyrus. Come sit over here, son.
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Koresh beckoned his 7-year-old [music] son, Cyrus, to sit down next to him. Cyrus had shoulder-length blond hair and
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waved at the camera with a shy smile. One by one, Koresh had other children sit with him.
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He introduced them and encouraged them to share some facts about themselves, sing their ABCs, and say hello to their
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Branch Davidian [music] friends outside. He also asked them questions about their
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love of God. >> [music] >> The FBI negotiators who subsequently received these tapes scoured them for
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intelligence on how everyone inside was doing. They all looked clean, healthy, and
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comfortable enough. Koresh occasionally closed his eyes in apparent discomfort [music] from his
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injuries, but did not appear to be suffering. The FBI knew the Branch Davidians were
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capable of holding up inside the compound for months. For a long time, they'd been stockpiling
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thousands of military-style ready-to-eat meals and canned goods. They also had their own well with an
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electric pump providing a limitless water supply that couldn't be shut off. If the group had everything they needed
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to survive, it was growing increasingly difficult to find a way to draw them out.
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The Branch Davidians remained concerned about the tanks surrounding the property
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and their inability to communicate with the media. The next couple of days continued with
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both Koresh and Steve Schneider [music] spending hours and hours talking with the FBI.
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Steve [music] voiced his concerns that the FBI might kill them all and burn down the entire compound.
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Koresh mostly preached, though he also offered to send out another child if he could speak to Robert Rodriguez, the
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undercover ATF agent who'd infiltrated the Branch Davidians. [music] When this wasn't permitted, Koresh
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reneged on his offer to release anyone else. A week into the siege, the Branch [music] Davidians requested to have milk
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sent in for the children, which the FBI suggested could [music] be traded for more releases.
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Koresh flatly refused to this, stating, [music] "You're dealing with my biological
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children now." None of the children who had been sent out were his, and he wouldn't entertain
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the idea of releasing his own sons or daughters. The FBI delivered the milk anyway.
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The cartons had tiny listening devices implanted into the Styrofoam, so that authorities could listen in on some of
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the conversations inside the compound. >> [music] >> The Branch Davidians were such a
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cohesive group that the FBI was finding it hard to break through. >> [music] >> It wasn't like negotiating with armed
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robbers or terrorists who were holding hostages captive. Instead, it was the FBI against all of
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the residents inside who saw them as the enemy. Although they were speaking with various
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people inside the compound, the two individuals the negotiators spoke to most frequently were Koresh [music]
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and Steve Schneider. They decided to try driving a wedge between the two friends. Perhaps if
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there was a [ __ ] in the armor, it would be easier to achieve their mission. In the early morning hours of Tuesday,
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March 9, [music] FBI negotiators asked Steve Schneider if it was true that his wife, Judy, had a
00:24:07
child with Koresh and was considered one of his brides. They challenged Steve about this,
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clearly trying to provoke him by asking, "Don't you miss the way it was?" But Steve merely reiterated his loyalty
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to Koresh and replied, >> [music] >> "It's better than it was." With that attempt failing, siege
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commander Jeff Jamar decided they needed to make life inside the compound less bearable. [music]
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At 2:15 a.m. on the 10th day of the siege, they cut off its electricity. In the [music] PBS documentary Waco: The
00:24:47
Inside Story, Jeff Jamar said, "There's the 10-day rule. Usually these things are over in 10 days.
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>> [music] >> That night, it was going to be 20° and the thought process was, "If we're going
00:25:02
to be cold in the dark, let them be cold in the dark, too." Negotiators were less enthusiastic about
00:25:11
this decision, aware that it could set back the delicate negotiations process by days.
00:25:17
Sure enough, David Koresh [music] refused to come to the phone until the power was restored.
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It was switched [music] back on later that same morning. This was just the beginning of the power
00:25:30
being switched [music] off and turned back on at the FBI's whim. Inside Mount Carmel, tempers were
00:25:38
beginning to fray. Those who were injured were suffering even more than the others.
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David Koresh, whose injuries were the worst, was becoming prone to mood swings. Judy Schneider's right forefinger had
00:25:53
been shot during the ATF raid and by this stage had swollen to twice its usual size.
00:26:00
She was offered medical assistance by the FBI, [music] but refused to come out. At 3:40 that afternoon, some Branch
00:26:08
[music] Davidians climbed up to the window of the watchtower upstairs and unfurled a homemade banner outside.
00:26:16
Written on a bed sheet in large black letters were the words, [music] "God help us. We want the press."
00:26:25
>> [music] >> Negotiators received some positive news on Friday, March 12, when they learned
00:26:33
that a Branch Davidian named Kathy Schroeder would be leaving the compound. Kathy had previously sent her children
00:26:40
out and her husband, Michael, had been killed during a confrontation with the ATF on the day of the botched raid.
00:26:47
She wanted to be reunited with her surviving family and Koresh was fine with letting her go as he was already
00:26:54
annoyed with her for smoking after the ATF raid. Kathy later told author Jeff Guinn,
00:27:01
>> [music] >> "He used my smoking for an excuse for kicking me out. He also told me I'd be a beacon of the
00:27:08
message to inform the world." Kathy left [music] the compound late that morning with her hands up and was
00:27:17
interviewed extensively by the FBI. She assured them there were no suicide plans, but added that many other people
00:27:25
inside did want to leave. They couldn't do so because Koresh had a hold over them.
00:27:33
The FBI filmed Kathy's emotional reunion with her 3-year-old son and sent the tape into the compound hopeful it might
00:27:41
inspire others to surrender. >> [music] >> Another Branch Davidian left the same
00:27:47
day, a 19-year-old Australian man named Oliver Gyarfas. Steve Schneider informed negotiators
00:27:54
that a few more were planning to leave the next [music] day. But later that night, siege commander
00:28:00
Jeff Jamar ordered that the compound's electricity be switched off again [music]
00:28:05
to prove to the Branch Davidians that the FBI controlled their earthly lives, not [music] David Koresh.
00:28:14
This time, the power wouldn't be turned back on again. David Koresh and Steve Schneider were
00:28:23
furious. They told the FBI negotiators that turning off the power had been an act of
00:28:29
bad faith. Privately, the negotiators agreed with them. It seemed highly unlikely that more
00:28:37
Branch Davidians were going to leave. Steve said that their people were freezing cold.
00:28:44
He again accused the government of wanting to kill them all and then burn the building down.
00:28:51
From the negotiators' perspectives, it felt as though whenever they were making incremental progress, the HRT took an
00:28:58
aggressive approach that undermined their hard work. As far as the HRT was concerned, the
00:29:04
negotiators themselves seemed to have been taken hostage by the Branch Davidians.
00:29:10
Their progress seemed painfully slow to the tactical unit, who were accustomed to wrapping things up within a couple of
00:29:17
days. Described by an analyst who worked with the FBI as testosterone-driven, the HRT agents believed decisive action
00:29:27
could likely draw the standoff to a close quite swiftly. Frustration grew to such a point that
00:29:34
one member of the HRT graffitied an outhouse they were using with the words, "Sage is a Davidian." in reference
00:29:41
[music] to negotiator Byron Sage. Although the power in the compound had been cut off, the phone line remained
00:29:50
open and the negotiators continued trying different tactics. They had Kathy Schroeder call in to
00:29:57
speak to her fellow church members. She reassured the Branch Davidians that the FBI was treating her well and hadn't
00:30:04
charged her with anything. They'd only asked general questions and had been super.
00:30:12
This didn't have the desired effect with both Koresh and Steve Schneider becoming
00:30:17
upset with Kathy for not being a spokesperson for them. One of the FBI's hidden microphones
00:30:23
picked up someone in the compound stating, "Kathy sounds like she's becoming one of
00:30:29
them." After that, the FBI established a modified strategy. The negotiators would remain friendly
00:30:37
and courteous, but would take a firmer approach. They would continue to discuss finding a
00:30:43
way to a peaceful resolution with the Branch Davidians, but would no longer listen to any more Bible babble.
00:30:52
On Monday, March 15, Koresh's two right-hand men, Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin, agreed to meet with
00:30:59
negotiator Byron Sage and the McLennan County Sheriff in person. The four met on the grounds of Mount
00:31:06
Carmel, about 20 yards from the front doors. All were putting themselves in a dangerous situation.
00:31:15
Byron Sage [music] was terrified that someone from inside the compound might seize the moment to fire on him or the
00:31:21
sheriff. Meanwhile, some members of the HRT were fighting the urge to grab Steve and
00:31:27
Wayne and arrest them as they stood there unarmed. Their instincts to jump into action were
00:31:33
only assuaged by directions from FBI leadership to leave the men alone. Byron Sage spoke mostly to Steve, who
00:31:44
was calm and made strong eye contact. Wayne Martin seemed nervous, dressed in a three-piece suit and fidgeting.
00:31:53
Sage looked Steve directly in the eyes and reassured him that he would give his life to protect two documents,
00:32:00
>> [music] >> the US Constitution and the Bible. That was why he was meeting with them to
00:32:06
come to a peaceful resolution. Steve responded positively to this, telling Sage that he believed him
00:32:15
completely and would do all that he could to conclude the siege. Though he and Wayne repeatedly made it
00:32:21
clear that Koresh would always have the final say. Steve Schneider and Byron Sage [music]
00:32:28
agreed to meet again the following day. When Steve went back into the compound, he told Koresh how much he liked and
00:32:37
trusted Sage. That night, Jeff Jamar ordered combat engineer vehicles to clear everything
00:32:45
within 50 yards of the Mount Carmel building. They crushed cars that belonged to
00:32:51
Branch Davidians and were parked around the property. This would prevent any Branch Davidians
00:32:57
from using the vehicles as cover if they decided to run out of the building guns
00:33:01
blazing. This was perceived as a hostile act and [music] again inflamed tempers inside
00:33:11
Mount Carmel. Steve Schneider refused to meet with negotiators again the following day and
00:33:17
he and Koresh argued with Byron Sage over the phone. "Are you going to kill me?" Koresh
00:33:24
asked. >> [music] >> "No." Sage replied before the call ended abruptly. Deciding they needed to speak to all
00:33:33
Branch Davidians more directly, the negotiators began broadcasting messages over a loudspeaker system the FBI had
00:33:40
set up outside the compound. >> [music] >> This would allow everyone inside the compound to hear them.
00:33:48
They broadcast tapes recorded by Branch Davidians who had left the siege. These upbeat recordings featured
00:33:55
positive messages about their interactions with law enforcement. >> [music] >> The negotiators also arranged for a
00:34:03
package full of documents to be dropped off at the compound including letters from attorneys willing to represent
00:34:09
Koresh and others, a letter from the Christian Broadcasting Network, and an audiotape from a theologian who had
00:34:16
listened to Koresh's sermons. These tactics seemed to work with Koresh saying that more people would soon be
00:34:24
coming out and they would eventually be followed by everyone else. Over the next few days, nine adults left
00:34:33
the compound, including Sheila Martin, the wife of Wayne Martin. Sheila was allowed to call her husband
00:34:40
in the compound, telling [music] him, "Everything went well. The ride was bumpy."
00:34:48
Wayne gave a reply that the FBI considered cryptic. "It [music] could be bumpy later, too."
00:34:56
The negotiators were encouraged by the steady [music] stream of surrenders. They urged Steve to send out more
00:35:03
people, >> [music] >> but he said he couldn't as Koresh was sleeping and had to be consulted before
00:35:08
anyone else could leave. However, everything seemed to indicate that everyone would be out soon.
00:35:16
>> [music] >> At around the same time, chief negotiator Gary Nesner learned of a plan
00:35:22
that would take the standoff into a whole new phase. >> [music] >> FBI special agent in charge Dick Shwine
00:35:35
had recently arrived from the Texas city of El Paso to assist Jeff Jamar and other leaders.
00:35:42
SAC Dick Shwine wore a dark blue SWAT-style uniform, where the other SACs typically wore civilian clothing.
00:35:50
Chief negotiator Gary Nesner would later describe SAC Shwine as, "A caricature of the gung-ho type.
00:35:58
He seemed surprisingly cavalier and flippant about the process. Once I heard him say in passing,
00:36:06
'No use trying to talk to these bastards. We've just got to go in there and cut their balls off.'"
00:36:13
On the same day that Steve Schneider said he had to wait for Koresh to wake before releasing any more people, Gary
00:36:20
Nesner learned of a plan SAC Shwine had proposed. He wanted to use the loudspeakers to
00:36:28
broadcast music into the compound. According to Nesna, this was an idea that SAC Schwein had gotten from his
00:36:36
time serving in the US Army. During the invasion of Panama, American soldiers had tormented military dictator
00:36:44
General Manuel Noriega with loud recordings in an effort to force him out of hiding.
00:36:51
Gary Nesna discouraged Jeff Jamar from implementing such a plan. He pointed out that music was not a
00:36:58
recommended negotiation tactic and was not something taught by the FBI. They were just starting to make real
00:37:06
progress with the Branch Davidians, and this approach would likely derail that. Plus, the loud music tactic hadn't
00:37:14
actually worked in Panama. Jeff Jamar assured Nesna that he would speak to SAC Schwein that evening when
00:37:22
he came on duty and make sure the tapes weren't played. In his memoir, Stalling for Time, Nesna
00:37:30
describes how he headed back to the motel where he was staying close to midnight, exhausted but reassured that
00:37:37
things were working out. After taking a shower, he turned on the television. Quote,
00:37:45
"There on the news, covered live, was the Davidian compound, brightly illuminated with [music] torturous
00:37:51
sounds blaring over speakers. The HRT blasted various songs, including Nancy Sinatra's These Boots Are Made for
00:38:01
Walking, across Mount Carmel, along with some deep Tibetan chants. At the same time, [music]
00:38:08
bright floodlights were beamed across the property into the building's windows, making it impossible for people
00:38:14
inside to sleep. Embarrassed on behalf of the FBI and furious [music] that his advice had been
00:38:21
ignored, Gary Nessner called the command post to speak to Jeff Jamar only to find
00:38:26
he'd left for the evening. At 11:35 p.m., Steve Schneider passed on an angry message from David Koresh.
00:38:36
"Because of the loud music, nobody is coming out." The music eventually stopped, but only
00:38:44
because the loudspeaker system malfunctioned. Gary Nessner raised the matter with the
00:38:50
Jeff Jamar first thing in the morning. Jamar explained that he'd forgotten to tell SAC Schwein not to play the tapes,
00:38:59
but promised that it wouldn't happen again. That night, the tapes were played again.
00:39:07
Included alongside the music and chanting were the sounds of rabbits screaming as they died, recordings
00:39:14
typically used by hunters to attract coyotes. There were also screaming seagulls,
00:39:20
crying babies, buzzing drills, droning bagpipes, and other sounds selected for their abrasiveness.
00:39:28
Gary Nessner again tried to put a stop to this tactic, but Jeff Jamar seemed unbothered, telling Nessner that Schwein
00:39:36
had nothing better to do on the night shift. David Koresh and his band fought back
00:39:42
against the ongoing intrusion by setting up their own generator-powered amps and
00:39:47
playing loud rock songs for hours in the direction of the FBI. The Branch Davidian speakers [music]
00:39:54
were so powerful that agents had to shout at one another to be heard. Gary Nessner, Byron Sage, and the other
00:40:05
negotiators tried to explain to the Branch Davidians [music] that the tactical team was to blame for the
00:40:10
ongoing harassment, but the damage was done. People inside the compound were exhausted and sleep-deprived. [music]
00:40:19
Steve also told the negotiators that the agents who were standing guard around the compound were harassing them in
00:40:26
other ways by mooning them and flipping them off. If Branch Davidians walked outside to
00:40:32
stand in the courtyard or other external areas, FBI agents would toss flash bangs
00:40:37
in their direction. This perceived hostility meant that no one inside Mount Carmel had any
00:40:44
intention of surrendering. Byron Sage suspected that even if some of the Branch Davidians were desperate
00:40:52
to leave, [music] their loyalty to David Koresh prevented them from doing so. Koresh was clearly a highly charismatic
00:40:59
individual. His exceptional knowledge of the Bible and his interpretations of scripture had
00:41:05
won many people over and they wholeheartedly believed in his teachings. Their loyalty was clearly evident in the
00:41:13
way that followers had submitted to Koresh's insistence that other men in the group be celibate and all women be
00:41:20
his spiritual wives. Koresh repeatedly said that his people were free to leave at any time, but Sage
00:41:27
knew that before anyone inside the compound could do so, they had to complete an exit interview with Koresh.
00:41:35
He always made sure to tell them that they could do as they pleased, but it would mean leaving their external
00:41:42
salvation behind and giving themselves over to Babylon. On the evening of Monday, March 22, the
00:41:50
FBI delivered another offer to David Koresh in writing. If everyone inside the compound was out
00:41:57
by noon the following day, it said, Koresh could make a worldwide broadcast on the Christian Broadcasting Network
00:42:05
[music] and would be permitted to maintain contact following his arrest. He could even continue holding religious
00:42:12
services. Koresh responded by telling the negotiators that he had thrown the letter away.
00:42:20
Just after 10:00 a.m. the next morning, a 34-year-old British Branch Davidian named Livingston Fagan was sent out of
00:42:28
the compound by Koresh to provide a counterpoint to the agency's narratives about the group.
00:42:34
But before he could attempt to address the media, Livingston was arrested and taken to a local jail.
00:42:41
Late that [music] night, the FBI continued their strategy of blasting high-powered beams into the compound
00:42:47
while simultaneously broadcasting Tibetan chants, Christmas carols, [music] and recordings of previous negotiations.
00:42:56
This proved to just as ineffective as before. Chief negotiator Gary Noesner continued
00:43:04
to voice his displeasure at this approach, and on Wednesday, March 24, he was removed from his role.
00:43:12
It would later emerge that the HRT leader had complained that Noesner was impeding the tactical team's more
00:43:19
aggressive efforts. In his memoir, Stalling for Time, Noesner later wrote, "The real story was that with the FBI
00:43:30
seemingly helpless to compel the Davidians to surrender, siege commander Jeff Jamar was feeling the heat.
00:43:38
The entire nation was watching, and the FBI was spending about $128,000 a day. Venting my frustrations more strongly
00:43:48
than before, I told him that I didn't think we would [music] get anyone else out after these recent actions.
00:43:55
He appeared unconcerned. I realized then that he had already determined what he was going to do."
00:44:07
Gary Noesner was replaced by Clinton Van Zandt, a former member of the negotiation unit.
00:44:14
Noesner was concerned by this choice, knowing that Van Zandt was a vocal born-again Christian.
00:44:21
Noesner worried that this would lead to Van Zandt getting into arguments with Koresh about biblical scripture.
00:44:27
Sure enough, this concern proved warranted, with Van Zandt spending hours on the phone with Koresh trying to
00:44:35
persuade him that his interpretation of the Bible was wrong. Various negotiators on the team later
00:44:42
confided in Noesner that they had been frustrated by this approach. After Noesner's exit, there were
00:44:49
repeated attempts at negotiations and long conversations between Branch Davidians and FBI negotiators, all to no
00:44:57
avail. Progress had completely stalled. Morale inside the compound was low. By this point, they'd been without
00:45:07
electricity for weeks, relying on Coleman lanterns, kerosene, and propane for light and heat.
00:45:15
Their water supplies were depleting due to some of the outdoor receptacles having been shot at during the ATF raid.
00:45:22
Branch Davidians limited themselves to one or two 8-oz drinks per day, essentially one or two cups of water.
00:45:29
[music] People were no longer bathing, and sanitary conditions were deteriorating.
00:45:37
Buckets were used instead of flushing toilets. Food had to be rationed, with everyone
00:45:43
receiving two ready-to-eat meals per day. Branch Davidian David Thibodeau later wrote,
00:45:51
"The pre-packaged rations of spaghetti and meatballs or tuna casserole taste like mud when eaten cold, slime when
00:45:58
warmed over our lanterns. We freeze in the chilly winter prairie wind that rattles our broken windows and
00:46:06
whistles through the building's thin sheetrock walls. >> [music] >> Contact with the outside world had been
00:46:14
almost entirely cut off with all messages relayed or filtered through the FBI. [music]
00:46:20
Branch dividians expressed to their frustration by hanging more homemade banners out of their windows [music]
00:46:26
with messages like FBI broke negotiation, we want press, and [music] Rodney King, we understand. A reference
00:46:36
to the African-American man whose brutal beating by police led to the LA riots 2
00:46:41
years earlier. There were supporters and sympathizers trying to make contact with them.
00:46:49
Jay Gallop Arnold and James Tabor, [music] two biblical scholars who'd been following the case since the botched ATF
00:46:56
raid on February 28th, traveled to Waco to offer the FBI assistance in communicating with the Branch dividians.
00:47:05
They understood Koresh's preaching about the seven seals and realized that he was
00:47:10
a true believer, >> [music] >> not a con artist as many in law enforcement seemed to believe.
00:47:16
His faith and that of his followers had to be taken into account when speaking to them.
00:47:23
But when they tried to convey this to the FBI, [music] Arnold and Tabor were turned away.
00:47:30
They kept trying over the ensuing days [music] and weeks and both were subsequently interviewed about the
00:47:35
ongoing siege by a Dallas radio station. They critiqued [music] media coverage that had depicted Koresh as just kind of
00:47:44
a crazy man who rambles, pointing out that he knew the Bible well and his teachings [music]
00:47:50
were a logical way of interpreting it. The two scholars worried that the longer the siege [music] dragged on, the higher
00:47:58
the likelihood that it would end tragically. As far as they were concerned, the government's actions were only serving
00:48:05
to reinforce the Branch Davidians' apocalyptic belief system. The ATF, and now the FBI, had created a
00:48:14
situation that would look to them like persecution from external forces in a kind of holy war.
00:48:22
The scholars made a particular point of addressing Koresh's teachings about the seven seals, which they identified as
00:48:29
being particularly important. Koresh's preaching over the previous weeks had made it clear that he believed
00:48:36
the fifth [music] seal had been opened when the ATF had attempted to raid his compound.
00:48:42
He had phoned a radio station on the night of February 28th and [music] told the station manager, "We are now in the
00:48:48
fifth seal." The station manager hadn't understood what he'd meant, [music] but Arnold and Tabor knew exactly what
00:48:57
it signified. In the Book of Revelation, when the fifth seal is opened, its writer John
00:49:05
sees the souls of martyred Christians who were persecuted and killed due to their loyalty to God.
00:49:12
The souls cry out, asking how long it will be until justice is done. [music] God tells them to wait a little longer
00:49:21
until more of God's plan unfolds. Koresh, however, interpreted the fifth seal as pertaining specifically to his
00:49:30
followers. The Christians crying out were the Branch Davidians killed during the ATF
00:49:37
raid, and now [music] they were in their waiting season, pausing until God revealed what the next
00:49:44
step was. From Koresh's perspective, [music] surrendering early would mean disobeying
00:49:51
God. Arnold and Tabor addressed the fifth seal at length in their second radio interview, encouraging Koresh to wait as
00:50:01
long as he needed, while pointing out that he didn't have to remain at Mount Carmel to do so.
00:50:08
Paul, the most famous of Jesus' apostles, had continued his ministry after being imprisoned.
00:50:15
Koresh could surrender peacefully, and it wouldn't mean he was betraying God. It might actually expand his influence
00:50:22
and audience. They cited a passage in Revelation that instructed its narrator to prophesy
00:50:29
[music] again before many peoples and nations, something Koresh couldn't do as long as
00:50:35
he was holed up inside his compound. As they didn't know whether or not Koresh and his followers would have
00:50:43
heard the radio interview, Arnold and Tabor obtained a taped copy of it and began thinking of a way to send it in to
00:50:50
Mount Carmel. Another person eager to make contact with Koresh was an attorney retained by
00:50:59
Koresh's mother 10 days into the siege. Dick DeGuerin was a renowned Texas criminal defense lawyer who would go on
00:51:08
to defend some of the state's most infamous cases. DeGuerin drove with Koresh's mother to
00:51:14
Waco and attempted to enter Mount Carmel, but was blocked at a checkpoint. [music]
00:51:20
After petitioning both the courts and the FBI, DeGuerin was finally permitted to visit Koresh on Monday, March 29,
00:51:28
>> [music] >> just over a month into the siege. He rode up to the compound in an armored
00:51:34
Bradley vehicle driven by an FBI agent. They stopped about 100 yards from the building's entrance, and DeGuerin walked
00:51:42
to the front door, where he was met by Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin. David Koresh emerged from behind them,
00:51:51
bandaged and walking slowly. Koresh told DeGuerin his version of events about what unfolded on February
00:51:59
28th, and DeGuerin reassured him that if the ATF used excessive force without provocation and the Branch [music]
00:52:07
Davidians fought back, quote, "That's self-defense. Texas law is really clear on that."
00:52:16
DeGuerin took a look around the rest of the building and spoke with other Branch
00:52:21
Davidians. [music] He noticed a strong smell of sewage as well as garlic, which the injured group
00:52:27
members were using to treat their wounds. >> [music] >> DeGuerin stayed for 2 hours and returned
00:52:34
several more times over the next few days [music] to meet with his client. When the media reported that DeGuerin
00:52:41
was representing Koresh, Jay Philip Arnold and James Tabor, the two biblical scholars eager to share their message
00:52:48
with Koresh, decided to reach out to him. They managed to get the tape to DeGuerin, who agreed to take it to the
00:52:56
Branch Davidians compound. On Sunday, April 4, Koresh and his followers sat in the dining hall as
00:53:04
DeGuerin played the tape aloud. The room was silent as everybody listened. Although they didn't believe the
00:53:13
scholars were as knowledgeable as David Koresh, they were positive about their message and felt a new sense of hope.
00:53:21
Koresh did as well, wondering if perhaps this recording was the message from God
00:53:27
he'd been waiting for. >> [music] >> He couldn't provide specifics just yet, but he informed his lawyer that he and
00:53:35
all of his followers would surrender after Passover, an 8-day Jewish holiday that the Branch Davidians observed.
00:53:42
[music] In 1993, it began on the following day of Monday, April 4, [music] and concluded a week later on Tuesday, April
00:53:51
13. It seemed like the siege might finally be drawing to a close. The next couple of days saw little
00:54:03
communication from those within the compound. Outside, the FBI continued to make noise
00:54:10
as they played loud music and unpleasant sounds over the loudspeakers. They refused to stop, even when Steve
00:54:18
Schneider called and threatened to cut off communication permanently. On Tuesday, April 6, Steve also
00:54:26
clarified that the Branch Davidians dates for Passover were slightly different to those typically observed.
00:54:34
They would begin Passover that day at sundown and observe it for the next 7 days.
00:54:40
>> [music] >> When the FBI asked if that meant they'd be coming out on the eighth day, Steve
00:54:45
Schneider said, "No." Koresh was still waiting for God to tell him a date. >> [music]
00:54:52
>> They had said they'd leave after Passover, not immediately after. >> [music] >> David Koresh confirmed these dates the
00:55:01
next day, [music] and when asked if he would come out after that, he didn't answer, instead embarking on a long
00:55:08
religious sermon. The negotiators [music] phoned the compound repeatedly over the next few
00:55:14
days, but most of their calls went unanswered. On Friday, [music] April 9, Steve Schneider sent something
00:55:23
out of the compound for FBI negotiators to read. It was a letter dictated by David Koresh
00:55:30
to Steve's wife, Judy, who'd typed it up [music] despite her injured hand. It opened with the words,
00:55:39
"Friends, I offer to you my wisdom. I offer to you my sealed secrets. How dare you turn away from my [music]
00:55:49
invitations of mercy? I know your sins and iniquities. None are hid from me. When will you ever fear and be wise?
00:56:00
Your only savior is my truth. My truth is the seven seals." >> [music] >> It had been written from the perspective
00:56:10
of God, as though Koresh had channeled the letter from a higher source. The letter ended by advising,
00:56:19
"Learn from David my seals, or as you have said, bear the consequences. I forewarn you, the Lake Waco area of
00:56:29
Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. >> [music] >> The waters of the lake will be emptied
00:56:35
through the broken dam. The heavens are calling you to judgment. Please [music] consider these tokens of
00:56:42
grave concern. Yahweh Koresh." The FBI [music] interpreted this final paragraph as threatening to blow up the
00:56:53
Lake Waco dam, >> [music] >> though it was unclear how he would do this while holed up in Mount Carmel.
00:57:00
Two more letters were sent out the next day, >> [music] >> riddled with scriptural passages and
00:57:05
more prophecies. >> [music] >> On the night of Tuesday, April 13, Dick DeGuerin decided to call into the
00:57:16
compound. As Koresh's lawyer, he could circumvent the blocks other outsiders faced.
00:57:21
[music] The Branch Davidians Passover was concluding the following day, and DeGuerin wanted to see what Koresh was
00:57:29
thinking. Would he be coming out soon as everybody hoped? Steve Schneider told DeGuerin that
00:57:37
Koresh couldn't come to [music] the phone as he was writing another letter. It was sent out the next day and was
00:57:44
addressed to DeGuerin. [music] It read, "Hello, Dick. As far as our progress is concerned,
00:57:53
here is where we stand. I have related two messages from God to the FBI, one of which concerns present [music]
00:58:01
danger to people here in Waco. I was shown a fault line running through the Lake Waco area.
00:58:08
>> [music] >> An angel is standing in charge of this event. Many people here in Waco know that we
00:58:15
are a good people and yet they have shown [music] the same resentful spirit of indifference to our warnings of love.
00:58:24
I am presently being permitted to document in structured form the [music] decoded messages of the seven seals.
00:58:32
Upon the completion of this task, I will be freed [music] from my waiting period.
00:58:38
I hope to finish this as [music] soon as possible and to stand before man to answer any and all questions regarding
00:58:46
my actions. Koresh went on at some length sharing his desire for people to be saved and
00:58:55
describing [music] what he saw as his destiny to share the truth. He concluded the letter by again
00:59:01
prophesizing that an earthquake [music] would hit Waco and shake some sense into
00:59:06
the people before adding what he planned [music] to do with his finished manuscript.
00:59:12
Quote, "I will demand that the first [music] manuscript of the seals be given to you.
00:59:18
Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to have copies for examination. [music]
00:59:24
I will keep a copy with me. As soon as I can see that people like a Jim Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I
00:59:32
will come out and then you can do your thing [music] with this beast. We are standing on the threshold of
00:59:39
great advance. The seven seals in written form are the most sacred information [music] ever.
00:59:49
Koresh speculated that it would take him about one or two days to write about each of the seals, adding up to two
00:59:55
weeks [music] maximum until he was finished. After they were done, he and everyone
01:00:01
else would definitely surrender >> [music] >> and Koresh would be willingly taken into
01:00:06
custody at the county jail. >> [music] >> As word spread through the compound that
01:00:14
they would finally be leaving within the next two weeks, [music] the mood lifted considerably and people
01:00:20
felt a renewed sense of hope. >> [music] >> They removed the previous banners that
01:00:25
they'd hung outside the windows and replaced them with new ones that had more positive messages.
01:00:31
We come to love, not war and let's have a beer when this is over. While many of them accepted that they
01:00:40
would be incarcerated upon leaving, at least that they'd no longer [music] have to ration food or go without showers.
01:00:48
They also knew how significant it was that David Koresh was writing a manuscript.
01:00:54
Although he was an adept preacher, he'd never written his teachings [music] down
01:00:59
aside from notes he'd scribbled in his Bible. He had long said his message could
01:01:04
[music] not and should not be written down until God gave permission. It seemed the long-awaited moment had
01:01:13
finally come. Koresh dictated to Steve [music] Schneider who recorded him while also
01:01:19
editing Koresh's words for grammatical [music] errors. Then two other Branch Davidians typed up
01:01:25
Steve's transcription on a computer powered by their ever-depleting generator. Progress was going well, and everyone
01:01:34
was optimistic. By the end of Friday, April 16, [music] Koresh had finished writing about the
01:01:41
first seal. His anticipated schedule was on track. >> [music] >> On the outside, FBI leaders were having
01:01:52
their own conversations. As far as they were concerned, Koresh had proved that he wasn't to be trusted
01:02:00
on Tuesday, March 2, when he reneged on their surrender agreement. From their perspective, he had been
01:02:07
intransigent and avoidant ever since. [music] He often avoided speaking to negotiators
01:02:13
for days at a time, and [music] wouldn't listen when they finally got a hold of him.
01:02:19
He'd agreed to come out after Passover, and now he was talking about a manuscript.
01:02:25
They suspected this was just another delay tactic, even though Steve [music] Schneider was offering to send out
01:02:31
recordings of Koresh's progress. The siege had been dragging on for 48 days, and everyone was over it.
01:02:41
While law enforcement officers assigned to the standoff weren't as confined or deprived as the Branch Davidians,
01:02:46
[music] they were struggling, too. They were living in motels, away from their families, and subsisting on fast
01:02:54
food like pizza. The days were long, with 12-hour shifts that were often extremely [music]
01:03:00
boring. The HRT agents were especially restless. [music] They were often tasked with delivering
01:03:08
goods like milk and medical supplies to Mount Carmel, going right up to the doors where four other federal agents
01:03:15
had been killed. Knowing the occupants inside were armed and responsible for their deaths
01:03:22
agitated them further. Because they were used to charging in rather than holding back, the HRT had
01:03:30
actually submitted a proposed action plan to FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. more than a month earlier on
01:03:37
Wednesday, March 10. [music] They had suggested that they surround the compound with armored tanks under
01:03:43
cover of darkness, then demand the surrender of occupants, and [music] if necessary, employ non-lethal tear gas to
01:03:51
force the Branch Davidians out. >> [music] >> The negotiators advised against using
01:03:57
tear gas to clear the compound unless the Branch Davidians [music] continued to resist all efforts to negotiate.
01:04:05
Because people had continued to surrender over the ensuing weeks and gradual progress was seemingly [music]
01:04:11
being made, the tear gas proposal was shelved. By April, however, it was back [music]
01:04:18
on the table. Siege Commander Jeff Jamar wanted stronger action taken, and negotiator
01:04:26
Byron Sage also signed off on a proposal to use tear gas. The siege was just a dragging on too
01:04:33
long, and a child hadn't been released since one week in. In order for tear gas to be used, the
01:04:41
U.S. Attorney General would have to agree as the nation's chief law enforcement officer and head of the
01:04:47
Department of Justice. [music] Janet Reno was the newly appointed Attorney General,
01:04:53
>> [music] >> having only been sworn in on March 12 after being nominated by the recently
01:04:58
elected President Bill Clinton. Reno had worked as a prosecutor in Florida, where she developed a
01:05:04
reputation for being a staunch advocate for children's rights. There were 62 adults and more than 20
01:05:12
children still holed up inside Mount Carmel, and the thought of releasing tear gas into a building with so many
01:05:19
children did not sit well with Reno. What if the [music] Branch Davidians took to using their kids as shields in
01:05:26
the face of such an action? Reno also worried that the gas might permanently damage the children.
01:05:35
On Monday, April 12, she rejected the plan, finding it too aggressive. But the FBI persisted, pushing back
01:05:45
against her decision by claiming the Branch Davidians had enough water to hold out indefinitely, and a tactical
01:05:51
response was necessary. Reno was assured in a 78-page briefing book that the gas was safe.
01:05:59
Quote, "Experience with the effects on children, including infants, has been extensively investigated.
01:06:07
Available reports indicate that even in high concentrations or in closed areas, long-term complications are extremely
01:06:15
rare." If there was any indication that Branch Davidians were using children as human
01:06:22
shields, the FBI would back off immediately. An FBI agent also told her that children
01:06:29
were currently being abused within the compound. >> [music] >> There was no evidence that children were
01:06:35
being physically or sexually abused during [music] the standoff, though historical evidence indicated girls had
01:06:42
been sexually abused by David Koresh, >> [music] >> and corporal punishment was used when
01:06:47
children misbehaved. Finally, [music] the FBI Director, William Sessions, called Janet Reno and asked her to
01:06:55
reconsider. She did. On Saturday, April 17, Reno gave her approval [music] for the tear gas to be
01:07:04
used, directing that it be put into effect on Monday, April 19. >> [music] >> The gas the FBI proposed to using was a
01:07:20
white powder called two-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, more commonly known as CS gas.
01:07:27
It would be mixed [music] with a solvent and delivered via armored vehicles, which would breach the compound's walls
01:07:33
and inject the gas inside. While CS gas is considered less than lethal, contact with it results in eye,
01:07:41
skin, and respiratory irritation with coughing fits lasting up to 20 minutes. If used in confined spaces at close
01:07:49
range and against people with underlying health conditions, it can kill. Some studies have indicated that large
01:07:57
amounts of CS gas can be combustible. As the FBI didn't intend to use an excessive amount of gas, they didn't
01:08:06
anticipate any overly severe results. Over 48 hours, they would gradually increase the levels being inserted into
01:08:13
the compound until those inside were compelled to leave. That was plan A. If the Branch Davidians responded to the
01:08:22
gas by arming themselves and shooting at the FBI, they would implement plan B, saturating the building with CS to force
01:08:30
an immediate exit. >> [music] >> The FBI felt confident that wouldn't happen, however.
01:08:36
Their large tanks would provide protection and would surely be too intimidating to fire at.
01:08:43
At 1:53 p.m. on Sunday, April 18, the FBI sent in armored vehicles [music] to clear the remaining Branch Davidian cars
01:08:51
from Mount Carmel to prepare the area for the following day's operation. One of the vehicles removed was David
01:08:58
Koresh's [music] own Chevrolet Camaro. This prompted Koresh pause his work on his manuscript
01:09:05
>> [music] >> and call the negotiator team to complain. Branch Davidians gathered in the
01:09:10
compound's windows [music] to look out as the tanks did their work. Some held up children.
01:09:16
>> [music] >> One HRT sniper noticed the cardboard sign that had been propped up in one of
01:09:21
the windows. It read, >> [music] >> "Flames await." At 5:59 a.m. on Monday, April 19, just
01:09:34
[music] as dawn was breaking, Branch Davidian David Thibodeau was woken by the shrill ringing of the telephone.
01:09:42
He answered it, and an FBI agent on the other end demanded to speak to Steve Schneider.
01:09:48
David went to wake Steve, but as he was doing so, another Branch Davidian alerted them that something was going on
01:09:55
outside. They went to a window and saw a formation of large demolition tanks had
01:10:01
formed a ring around the compound in the gray early morning light. At the same time, negotiator Byron Sage
01:10:10
announced over the FBI's loudspeakers, "The siege is over. We're going to put tear gas into the
01:10:17
building. David and Steven, lead your people out of there." At 6:02 a.m., two [music] of the tanks
01:10:25
approached the compound's windows and injected CS gas via spray nozzles that had been attached to their booms.
01:10:33
The Branch Davidians stared at one another in shock as Byron Sage's voice continued to echo,
01:10:40
"This is not an assault. The tear gas is harmless, but it will make your environment uninhabitable.
01:10:47
Eventually, it will soak into your food and clothing. You are under arrest. Come out with your hands up."
01:10:57
Steve Schneider instructed the others to grab their gas masks, which they had purchased in bulk at a gun show.
01:11:04
David Thibodeau ran from room to room waking people and raising the alarm. The scene was soon chaotic with
01:11:11
individuals bumping into each other as they dashed about and [music] children crying.
01:11:17
Many of the women and children headed towards a tunnel that led to an old school bus half buried in the ground.
01:11:24
But the opening minutes of the assault had not to loose debris blocking their path.
01:11:29
They turned around [music] and made their way to a concrete walk-in cooler at the base of the residential tower,
01:11:35
once used as a pantry, >> [music] >> but now the compound's gun room. As all of the gas masks were designed
01:11:42
for adults, none fit the children. The women dipped rags and towels into buckets of water and to use to them to
01:11:50
cover their children's faces. [music] Byron Sage could still be heard over the loudspeakers repeating the words,
01:11:58
"Come out with your hands up. There will be no shooting. This is not an assault."
01:12:05
Outside, the FBI heard metallic clinking sounds emanating from listening devices
01:12:11
they'd smuggled into the compound. This led them to believe that the Branch Davidians were arming up.
01:12:18
At 6:04 a.m., 2 minutes after the tear gas [music] was inserted, gunshots came from the direction of the compound
01:12:26
firing at the FBI's tanks. Byron [music] Sage later said that the tank positioned by the compound's front
01:12:33
doors looked as though it was lit up with sparklers due to the rounds [music] bouncing off it.
01:12:38
This led to an immediate abandonment of the agency's plan [music] A and a switch
01:12:43
to plan B. The FBI was now authorized to [music] flood the entire building with gas.
01:12:54
>> David Thibodeau was [music] still racing through the building, checking the women's quarters for anyone who might
01:12:59
not have heard the message, when he heard an enormous crashing sound reverberate through the building.
01:13:05
Two tanks had driven up to the dormitory side of the compound, and their steel claws were being used to tear chunks out
01:13:12
of the wall. The flimsy building shook violently, and David [music] saw a powdery cloud billow
01:13:18
inside, accompanied by a hissing sound. Small [music] gas canisters were simultaneously lobbed through the
01:13:25
windows, shattering the glass and adding [music] to the fumes. One canister hit a Branch Davidian
01:13:31
directly in the head, causing [music] him to drop unconscious to the floor. Protected by his gas mask, [music] David
01:13:38
Thibodeau ran towards the building's chapel, where some people had taken shelter.
01:13:44
Describing the mask [music] as feeling like a hand squeezing your face, he had to resist the urge to tear it off.
01:13:51
He saw at least one person without a mask who had tears [music] streaming down his face and was almost screaming
01:13:58
in agony. Those hiding in the chapel soon found their refuge targeted, [music] as a tank knocked against the eastern
01:14:05
wall. Its boom poked through the hole it created and deposited more gas, >> [music]
01:14:11
>> sending those inside scuttling towards the opposite corner. While the gas masks protected the Branch
01:14:18
Davidians' respiratory systems, they [music] couldn't protect their skin. Some received blisters from the gas,
01:14:25
with one describing his [music] hands as having burns like battery acid. Tears streamed down their faces from the
01:14:33
pain. >> [music] >> Messages continued to droning over the loudspeaker. We are not entering the building.
01:14:41
David, this will not come to an end until you are all out of the building. We are ready to meet you and provide
01:14:48
appropriate medical attention. By 6:55 [music] a.m., the firing at the FBI's tanks had
01:14:55
stopped. The FBI hadn't fired back, but no one had emerged from the compound. >> [music]
01:15:03
>> At one point, someone had tossed the building's telephone outside the front door, but that was it.
01:15:10
The FBI continued on with plan B. By 7:09 a.m., they had used up almost their entire supply of 400 ferret round
01:15:20
canisters [music] and issued a request to local law enforcement agencies to send more.
01:15:27
Another hour went by with no one emerging from the compound. Byron Sage again encouraged the Branch
01:15:34
Davidians to come out, directing them to walk down the driveway and surrender to
01:15:39
the guys in the Bradleys. We don't want to hurt anyone. >> [music] >> Inside the chapel, as waves of gas
01:15:47
permeated the air, people quietly read their Bibles or listened to radio broadcasts.
01:15:54
The media had already picked up that [music] something serious was underway at Mount Carmel.
01:16:00
Ron Engelman, a Dallas-based radio presenter who was highly sympathetic [music] to the Branch Davidians, spoke
01:16:06
of his horror at the US government's actions while begging the Branch Davidians to come [music] out for their
01:16:12
own sakes. Some heard his message but didn't heed his advice, [music] scared that if they exited the building,
01:16:20
they'd be shot. David Koresh, [music] wearing a gas mask, split his time between still
01:16:27
working on his manuscript and checking in on his followers. At 9:47 a.m., someone from inside the
01:16:34
compound ducked out quickly to retrieve the phone thrown outside, shouting, "David's transcript is almost complete."
01:16:43
But the telephone line had been cut off by one of the tanks and the phone was useless.
01:16:49
Some Branch Davidians hung out a banner that read, "We want our phone fixed." The FBI tried to reconnect the phone but
01:16:57
couldn't. They continued issuing commands over the loudspeaker every 10 minutes.
01:17:04
Fierce winds blowing [music] 31 mph gusted into the compound from outside, whipping up the heavy clouds of gas.
01:17:11
[music] Earlier that morning, the weather service had issued a wind advisory for
01:17:16
Waco, which [music] the FBI had ignored. Now it was dispersing the gas they'd deposited. [music]
01:17:24
In response to this, the FBI pushed their tanks further into the compound in an attempt to corral the Branch
01:17:30
Davidians. [music] At 10:00 a.m., the tanks began crashing against the building's exterior walls,
01:17:38
crumbling them and causing the door to the cooler room, where most of the women and children were hiding, to dislodge.
01:17:45
The women had shut the door to prevent gas from leaking in, but it began to flood their shelter.
01:17:53
At the [music] same time, the roof above caved in along with parts of the walls,
01:17:58
pinning some women and children to the ground and killing others. Branch Davidians in other parts of the
01:18:08
compound were oblivious to the damage below. They raced from room to room trying to
01:18:14
dodge the walls that were caving in around them. A thick layer of dust from the gas
01:18:20
coated every surface inside. Just after 11:00 a.m., Byron [music] Sage announced,
01:18:27
"David, Steve, we're still here. So are you. We're placing tear gas and we'll continue to do so.
01:18:36
You are prolonging the inevitable. Your word has been hollow and false. We want you to exit now and submit
01:18:45
yourself to proper authorities. >> [music] >> There was no response from inside the
01:18:51
compound. The tanks demolished more parts of the building, knocking down the gymnasium
01:18:57
behind the chapel. Stairways [music] were broken, which trapped some Branch Davidians on the
01:19:02
upper levels. Finally managing [music] to reconnect the phone line, the FBI tried calling,
01:19:09
but nobody answered. >> [music] >> The listening devices were still picking up parts of conversations and human
01:19:15
movement inside, reassuring the FBI that people were alive, >> [music] >> but they suddenly ceased working after
01:19:22
being damaged by falling debris. Just after noon, >> [music] >> David Thibodeau suddenly heard somebody
01:19:30
shout, "Fire!" Flames had broken out almost simultaneously in three different sections of the building. [music]
01:19:39
David looked around for an escape route and saw one path was blocked by [music] a timber beam.
01:19:45
Climbing up to the upper level, he saw fireballs shooting down the corridor, forcing [music] him to retreat back
01:19:51
downstairs. The chapel was now entirely engulfed in flames. [music] David Thibodeau saw people huddled in a
01:19:59
corner trying to avoid the thick smoke. Within minutes of the fire [music] first
01:20:05
being noticed, more flames had erupted all throughout the compound. The entire building was [music] ablaze
01:20:12
and enormous plumes of black smoke emanated from the compound, >> [music] >> visible from 10 mi away.
01:20:20
At 12:12 p.m., Byron [music] Sage urgently requested that David Koresh lead his people out to safety.
01:20:28
1 minute later, the FBI called for assistance from the local fire department. They had no equipment at the ready to
01:20:36
fight such an immense blaze. At 12:25 [music] p.m., FBI agents heard gunshots ringing
01:20:43
out from inside the compound. When firefighters arrived 10 minutes [music] later, they were held back at a
01:20:50
perimeter out of concern they may be shot. While FBI agents were fearing gunfire,
01:20:57
some people inside Mount Carmel were too scared to attempt an escape for [music]
01:21:01
the same reason. At least one individual decided not to jump from a window out of fear
01:21:07
government agents would shoot him. Two men escaped out the back door to the cafeteria, only [music] to be struck by
01:21:14
FBI tanks. One lost a leg, the other's torso was torn open. David Thibodeau crawled on his hands and
01:21:24
knees following two other Branch Davidians who were headed towards a hole on the chapel's east side.
01:21:30
They managed to stagger outside away from the blaze >> [music] >> and made their way towards a Red Cross
01:21:36
sign positioned about 50 yards away. In total, [music] nine Branch Davidians managed to escape
01:21:47
the burning compound. Most escaped between [music] 12:20 and 12:30 p.m. by crawling through the same
01:21:54
hole as David Thibodeau or through another gap in the front of the compound. A man jumped from the second floor roof,
01:22:03
while a woman leapt from a second floor window covered in burns. [music] Another woman ran out, but upon seeing
01:22:10
the FBI tanks outside, turned around [music] and raced back inside the burning building.
01:22:17
A HRT agent saw her, left his armored vehicle, and [music] pursued the woman, pulling her back to safety as she fought
01:22:24
against him. >> [music] >> FBI agents intercepted the survivors, forcing them to lie in a row on the
01:22:30
ground and restraining their hands behind their backs. One agent demanded to know,
01:22:37
"Where are the women and children?" >> [music] >> At 12:41 p.m., firefighters finally
01:22:44
started battling the blaze. Believing the women and children were most likely hiding in the buried bus or
01:22:51
the tunnels that led to it, some HRT agents raced towards the compound, which was still burning.
01:22:59
Explosions occasionally went off as the huge amount of ammunition stockpiled by the Branch Davidians caught fire.
01:23:06
Making their way into some of the tunnels >> [music] >> and eventually the bus itself, HRT
01:23:12
agents found them to be cool and undamaged. In a state of shock, negotiator Byron
01:23:19
Sage approached the site and asked his colleagues, "Where are the kids?" As he learned that no one had been found
01:23:27
in the location where [music] they'd been expected to hide, the horrifying realization dawned
01:23:34
that all of [music] the children had been consumed by the inferno. It had been fast and deadly, engulfing
01:23:41
the entire flimsy [music] building within 10 to 30 minutes. By 12:30 [music] p.m., the roof had
01:23:49
collapsed and 2 minutes later, the compound was effectively gone. At 12:55 p.m., the flames [music] began
01:23:58
to die down due to a lack of material left to burn. It was a day before parts of the site
01:24:06
had cooled down enough to permit an examination of the wreckage and a week [music] before everything could be
01:24:12
properly searched. The Texas Rangers took command of the compound to undertake a proper crime
01:24:18
scene analysis. An arson team composed of experts from across the United States was tasked with
01:24:25
determining the cause of the fire. Amidst the rubble, they discovered 305 firearms and approximately 1.9 million
01:24:34
rounds of cooked-off or spent ammunition. By Monday, May 3, [music] 2 weeks after the fire, the Rangers had
01:24:43
also recovered the remains of 76 bodies, 53 adults and 21 children. Two young women, 17-year-old Aisha
01:24:53
Gyarfas and 24-year-old Nicole Gent, had been heavily pregnant when they died and
01:24:59
spontaneously [music] gave birth during the assault, adding two more infants to the death toll.
01:25:06
Both of these babies had been fathered by David Koresh. All 14 of his children died during the
01:25:13
fire. Medical examiners were only able to identify 35 individuals when performing
01:25:21
autopsies, leaving 40 unidentified. 18 children and 9 [music] women were found in the concrete cooler.
01:25:29
Most had died of smoke inhalation, [music] while some had been crushed by falling debris.
01:25:35
Rachel Koresh, David Koresh's wife, had been amongst these victims, [music] as was her younger sister, Michelle
01:25:42
Jones, and Steve Schneider's wife, Judy. Their children died alongside them. Three women and four children in the
01:25:52
bunker, including one infant, had died from gunshot wounds to the head and chest, seemingly in mercy killings.
01:26:01
A boy around two or three years old was killed by a stab wound to his [music] chest.
01:26:08
Elsewhere in the compound, smoke inhalation was the leading cause of death, killing [music] 33 people.
01:26:16
Nine people died from burns or a combination of burns and smoke inhalation. There were also further victims who had
01:26:23
chosen to be shot rather than burn, including six men, three women, [music] and one individual whose gender couldn't
01:26:31
be determined. The remains of 33-year-old David Koresh were recovered in the compound's
01:26:38
communications room, the office [music] area where he'd spent hours speaking to negotiators and writing his manuscript.
01:26:45
>> [music] >> Koresh had been killed by a single gunshot wound to the forehead. Steve Schneider's body was nearby.
01:26:54
He'd been shot in the [music] mouth. An autopsy couldn't confirm whether Koresh had taken his own life or been
01:27:01
killed by another. One FBI official speculated that in the final moments at Mount Carmel, Steve
01:27:08
[music] had probably realized that he was dealing with a fraud and had so murdered Koresh before turning the gun
01:27:15
on himself. [music] There is no definitive evidence to prove or disprove this theory.
01:27:25
>> [music] >> Right from the start of the standoff between federal authorities and the
01:27:29
Branch Davidians, the events at Waco had been a massive news story. It was followed closely and reported on
01:27:37
constantly by media outlets nationwide as well as overseas. When the siege [music] came to a brutal
01:27:44
end on its 51st day, the coverage went into overdrive. The deaths of so many individuals,
01:27:51
particularly such a high number of children, led to reporters and commentators expressing shock.
01:27:58
Headlines emphasized that this was a tragedy on a scale that felt completely unprecedented.
01:28:04
The public echoed these sentiments. The day after the fire, President Bill Clinton spoke about Waco with reporters
01:28:13
at the White House. Describing David Koresh as dangerous, irrational, and probably insane, he said
01:28:20
that the siege and enormous loss of life was not the fault of the government. Four federal agents were killed in the
01:28:28
line of duty trying to enforce the law against the Branch Davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled weaponry
01:28:34
and ammunition, and placed [music] innocent children at risk, he said. Mr. Koresh's response to demands for his
01:28:42
surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives, as well as all
01:28:49
the other people who were there who did not survive. President Clinton defended the operation
01:28:55
that the FBI had undertaken the previous day, [music] while adding that the departments of
01:29:00
Justice and Treasury would be beginning an immediate investigation into what had
01:29:04
happened and why. [music] Attorney General Janet Reno was called to answer for her decision to approve
01:29:11
the use of tear gas. Why hadn't the FBI just waited the Branch Davidians out? Reno spoke to the media about that,
01:29:20
repeatedly emphasizing that she had approved the plan [music] because she'd received reports that children inside
01:29:26
the compound were being physically and sexually abused, [music] and was told the situation required
01:29:32
urgent action. FBI Director William Sessions distanced himself from these assertions, claiming
01:29:40
that he hadn't told Reno any such thing, and adding, "She's responsible for what she heard."
01:29:48
FBI documents later examined by the PBS program Frontline revealed that an unnamed agent had in fact made these
01:29:56
claims to Reno while the agency was pressuring her to approve the tear gas [music] plan.
01:30:05
Another question that needed to be answered was who started the fire. Almost immediately, the FBI and the
01:30:13
Department of Justice accused the Branch Davidians of deliberately starting the fire.
01:30:19
Listening devices that they had planted inside the compound had reportedly picked up snippets of incriminating
01:30:24
conversations on the morning of the fire, such as "Start the fire." "Got some fuel around here." And "Did
01:30:32
you pour it yet?" One person was recorded stating that David Koresh had ordered fuel to be
01:30:39
poured somewhere within the compound. "We should have gotten more hay in here." Someone lamented. "I know."
01:30:47
agreed another. One survivor would later recall he'd heard someone repeatedly commanding
01:30:53
"Light the fire." The flames had spread quickly due to the poor construction of the building, the
01:31:00
strong winds, and the holes in the walls made by FBI tanks, which further vented
01:31:06
the blaze. Additionally, there was a large amount of highly combustible materials inside
01:31:12
the compound. Not only was the building made from highly flammable materials, but the
01:31:18
Branch Davidians stacked hay bales along the walls to provide insulation and protection from external gunfire.
01:31:26
While some have theorized that the fire could have started accidentally due to tanks knocking over lanterns and space
01:31:32
[music] heaters, the arson team ultimately concluded that the fire was deliberately set by one or more persons
01:31:39
inside the compound. The arson investigation revealed the fire had three points of origin.
01:31:46
>> [music] >> Fuel containers and other chemical accelerants were found near these
01:31:50
points. A report released by the Department of Justice stated that these locations were
01:31:57
notably distant from one another. >> [music] >> The almost simultaneous conflagration of
01:32:02
the three fires meant it was not possible for them to be accidental or the result of a single ignition.
01:32:09
The [music] first point was on the second floor near the front of the building. The second was on the middle
01:32:14
of the first floor in the group's dining room. And the third was also on the first floor, but on the right side in
01:32:21
the chapel. >> [music] >> If the Branch Davidians did deliberately light the fire, author Jeff Guinn makes
01:32:28
clear that this is not a plan everybody would have known about. Quote, "Even in the best of times, group
01:32:36
communication was difficult when everyone was scattered in different parts of the sprawling building."
01:32:42
David Koresh might have informed as many followers as possible that the moment had arrived to die in flames and live
01:32:48
afterward in glory, but there would still have been dozens who had no idea of what was happening.
01:32:57
The government narrative around this theory has been that the Branch Davidians were participating in a mass
01:33:02
suicide, but biblical scholar J. Philip Arnold has suggested Koresh might have instead seen the fire as a kind of holy
01:33:10
barrier to protect his followers from the FBI. In the Bible's book of Zechariah, there
01:33:17
is a verse describing how God would save Jerusalem by surrounding the city with an impenetrable wall of fire.
01:33:25
This ties to another biblical passage in the book of Isaiah, a book that Koresh was known to draw heavily upon in his
01:33:32
teachings. Chapter 43, verse two, promises, "When you walk through the fire, you
01:33:40
will not be burned. The flames will not set you ablaze." Some people have rejected this
01:33:48
narrative, instead believing that the FBI was responsible for lighting the fires, either deliberately or
01:33:55
inadvertently. Early into the assault, two or three rounds of combustible pyrotechnic tear
01:34:02
gas shells were used in an attempt to penetrate a particular corner of the building, though they didn't succeed and
01:34:09
were fired hours before the fire started. The FBI initially denied they had been
01:34:16
used at all, but photographic and audio evidence proved that they had been. Conspiracy theories cropped up accusing
01:34:24
the government of deliberately burning down Mount Carmel. Although there is no evidence of this,
01:34:31
many have noted that the agency's actions on Monday, April 19, 1993 did create the situation that led to the
01:34:38
inferno and the enormous loss of human life. Moreover, they'd had intelligence about
01:34:45
the construction of Mount Carmel and had seen the hay bales and clothing strewn about inside.
01:34:51
Essentially, they had known it was a tinderbox, and yet they didn't put together a fire protection plan when
01:34:57
submitting their tear gas proposal. They hadn't had firefighting equipment at the ready on April 19 and were
01:35:04
completely unprepared when faced with the flames. The fallout of Waco was immense and led
01:35:15
to numerous government investigations, inquiries, and reports. Shortly after the fire, the Department
01:35:22
of Justice initiated internal reviews of federal actions, including a chronology
01:35:27
of how the entire siege unfolded and an evaluation of tactical decisions. While these reports contained no
01:35:35
recommendations that FBI agents be disciplined for their actions during the siege, the agency did make some
01:35:41
adjustments following Waco. A greater emphasis was placed on crisis negotiation over tactical responses, as
01:35:49
well as interagency cooperation to avoid conflicting approaches from different units.
01:35:57
Reflecting on the FBI's approach on April 19, 1993, many years later, one analyst observed [music] that
01:36:04
surrounding the compound with tanks while simultaneously imploring people to come out was highly unlikely to work.
01:36:12
Quote, "I've never had a warm, fuzzy feeling running toward a tank. Never in my entire life have I
01:36:20
encountered any mother who would let her child do that. I don't think that the manner in which
01:36:26
the tanks came in created any trust." The Department of Treasury, which had then oversaw the ATF, conducted its own
01:36:36
review of the first raid that had triggered the initial loss of life and events that followed.
01:36:42
It found that the February 28 raid should not have proceeded after the ATF lost the element of surprise.
01:36:50
ATF operation commander Phil Hoynatski and operations second in command Chuck Sarabyn were found [music] to have been
01:36:58
involved in altering key documents that were essential to the investigation. Both were fired but later appealed and
01:37:06
were reinstated on the proviso that they no longer be involved in field operations.
01:37:12
Three days before the report was released, the ATF director resigned. Following Waco, the ATF began focusing
01:37:21
on the worst of the worst gun law offenders, namely criminal gangs, rather than non-violent gun owners and dealers.
01:37:31
From 1993 to 1996, there were multiple congressional hearings and House Committee reports where members of
01:37:38
Congress interrogated law enforcement actions. More investigations followed as public
01:37:44
sentiment evolved over time. In the immediate aftermath of the siege, most members of the public sided with
01:37:52
the government. A CNN poll found that 70% of Americans agreed with the FBI's actions.
01:38:01
Within a few months, that number had dropped to 50%. By the late 1990s, public opinion had
01:38:08
shifted the other way with the majority of Americans believing the government had started the fire.
01:38:16
The widespread skepticism led to political pressure and was a factor in yet another report being commissioned by
01:38:22
the Department of Justice. In November 2000, the Danforth report was released. While it found that there was no
01:38:32
conspiracy or cover-up surrounding government actions, it did conclude that government employees had mishandled and
01:38:39
failed to disclose information, specifically about the use of combustible shells for hours before the
01:38:45
fire. The report was received well by the FBI, Attorney General Janet Reno, some
01:38:52
politicians, and much of the mainstream media, but it had its critics. They believed that it depended too
01:39:00
heavily on FBI accounts with civil liberties groups calling it soft. Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark,
01:39:09
who went on to represent several Branch Davidians and their relatives in a civil
01:39:13
suit, was openly scathing, stating, "History will clearly record, I believe, that these assaults on the Mount Carmel
01:39:22
Church Center remains the greatest domestic law enforcement tragedy in the history of the United States."
01:39:34
Ramsey Clark wasn't alone in his opinion. The legacy of Waco on the American consciousness and US politics has been
01:39:43
enormous. As well as being furious about the huge loss of life, many were angry that the
01:39:49
ATF had planned a raid in the first place, [music] considering it an assault on the Branch Davidians' constitutional
01:39:55
rights to bear arms and to worship freely. Though arguments were made that Koresh
01:40:02
was sexually abusing underage girls in the compound, >> [music] >> opponents to the raid pointed out child
01:40:08
sexual abuse was not within the ATF's jurisdiction. Waco became a catalyst for individuals
01:40:16
already mistrustful of the federal government and a symbol of government tyranny and overreach.
01:40:23
After the siege ended, there was a notable rise in far-right anti-government militias.
01:40:29
Estimates have suggested that before Waco, there were a few dozen of these paramilitary [music] groups throughout
01:40:35
the entire United States. By 1995, there were hundreds. Some people made pilgrimages to the
01:40:44
Mount Carmel [music] site, which was essentially just an open rubble-strewn field.
01:40:50
On the morning of Wednesday, April 19, 1995, the second anniversary of the Waco fire, a 26-year-old named Timothy
01:40:59
McVeigh drove a rented truck to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City and parked it out
01:41:06
the front. He lit the 2-minute fuse of a bomb that he'd constructed and mounted in the back
01:41:12
of the truck before exiting the vehicle. The bomb detonated at 9:02 a.m., destroying the north half of the
01:41:21
building. 168 people were killed, including 19 children who were attending a daycare
01:41:28
center on the second floor. 684 others were injured. McVeigh has claimed he wasn't aware
01:41:36
there was a daycare center in the building, but his co-conspirator, [music] Terry Nichols, said they'd both
01:41:42
known about it and hadn't cared. They'd chosen to target a government building at the beginning of a work day
01:41:49
as an act of vengeance [music] for the Waco and Ruby Ridge sieges. McVeigh had been enraged about the
01:41:57
federal government's actions at Waco and had driven to Mount Carmel during the siege to protest [music]
01:42:02
and sell bumper stickers. As someone drawn to white supremacist and white nationalist ideology, McVeigh
01:42:10
had little in common with the Branch Davidians, but he was fiercely anti-government.
01:42:16
As of the release of this episode, the Oklahoma City bombing remains the deadliest act [music] of domestic
01:42:23
terrorism in US history. On the same day that Timothy McVeigh was terrorizing Oklahoma City, Clive Doyle,
01:42:35
an Australian [music] Branch Davidian who'd survived the blaze, held a memorial service at Mount Carmel.
01:42:42
Other survivors attended and planted a grove of crepe myrtle trees along the driveway to honor their dead loved ones.
01:42:50
The service was also attended by far-right militia members dressed [music] in fatigues.
01:42:57
Several of them made anti-government speeches. Clive Doyle later told the Chicago
01:43:03
Tribune, "I didn't want any bashing. I wanted it to be a solemn occasion, but to be
01:43:10
honest, [music] they kind of took over the pulpit." In subsequent interviews, Clive repeated
01:43:17
his concern that the story of Waco had been co-opted by far-right and white supremacist groups.
01:43:26
A number of surviving Branch Davidians were criminally prosecuted after the siege.
01:43:31
12 were charged with conspiring to murder federal agents as well as aiding and abetting those murders.
01:43:39
They were also charged with unlawfully possessing and using various firearms. One of the 12 negotiated a plea bargain,
01:43:47
but the others went to trial. All of the Branch Davidians were acquitted on the murder charges.
01:43:54
However, five were convicted of voluntary manslaughter. Others received a lesser convictions
01:44:00
relating to firearm possession and use and of forcibly resisting arrest. Four were acquitted on all charges.
01:44:09
Those convicted faced a long prison sentences of up to 40 years. These were later reduced on appeal, and
01:44:17
the last Branch Davidian to be released from prison was British member Livingstone Fagan, who was freed in
01:44:23
2007. A number of survivors have written memoirs about their time following David
01:44:31
Koresh, including Mark Breault, David Thibodeau, and Clive Doyle. Today, David Thibodeau runs a website
01:44:39
called Waco Survivors, which is dedicated to archiving the story of Mount Carmel.
01:44:45
Mark Breault rejected Koresh's teachings long before the siege in Waco, but Clive
01:44:51
Doyle remained loyal to his prophet. [music] He became a kind of unofficial spokesperson for the Branch Davidians
01:44:59
and was often approached over the years by people who claimed to be the new embodiment of David Koresh.
01:45:06
Clive continued living in Waco and held a weekly Bible study with Sheila Martin,
01:45:11
the widow of Wayne Martin, until his death in 2022. Today, small communities of Branch
01:45:19
Davidians can still be found scattered throughout America and the world. In 1999, a group of volunteers rebuilt
01:45:28
[music] the church at Mount Carmel. It still stands, and a splinter group worships there under the name The
01:45:35
Branch, the Lord Our Righteousness. They are led by a former follower named Charles Pace, [music] who left in 1984
01:45:44
and returned after the siege. Pace [music] believes Koresh was a prophet who twisted the Bible's
01:45:51
teachings by taking other men's spouses and young girls as his wives. Pace has stated [music] that Koresh was
01:45:58
sent by God to commit sin, and that he was following God's orders to the very end.
01:46:06
The rebuilt chapel at Mount Carmel also operates as a kind [music] of museum about the Waco siege, with
01:46:12
anti-government posters pinned to the walls alongside photographs of the victims. [music]
01:46:19
Elsewhere on the sprawling 77 acres, are mobile homes occupied by the new Branch
01:46:24
Davidian community, and remnants of the original compound. >> [music] >> Visitors to the site can see the
01:46:31
original building's concrete foundation, the location of the bunker where women and children sheltered,
01:46:38
>> [music] >> and some crumpled metal remains of the half-buried school bus. >> [music]
01:46:43
>> Green fields surrounding the chapel are dotted with several different memorials
01:46:48
etched in [music] stone. There is one dedicated to the founders of the Branch Davidian movement, [music]
01:46:54
and all of those lost during the 51-day siege. Two other smaller memorials sit side-by-side, commemorating the victims
01:47:03
of the Oklahoma City bombing, [music] and the four ATF agents killed in the initial raid at Mount Carmel on February
01:47:10
28, 1993. And another marble stone planted firmly in the ground has been carved with words
01:47:19
[music] from the Book of Revelation, chapter 6, verses 9 to 10. Scripture that describes the opening of
01:47:27
the fifth seal. >> [music] >> I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and
01:47:35
for the testimony [music] which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
01:47:42
"How long, oh Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our [music] blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
01:47:54
>> [music]