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Trump-Xi Summit, Benioff: "Not My First SaaSpocalypse," OpenAI vs Apple, Multi-Sensory AI, El Niño

May 15, 2026 / 01:16:31

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All right, everybody. Welcome back to

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the number one podcast in the world, the

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allin podcast. Episode 273.

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It's a huge week. Saxs is our show. We

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got to get Mark Beni off, CEO of

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Salesforce.

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>> I'm the only one left here. You're the

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only one left. That's why that's how I

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made it on.

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>> No software CEOs, right, to China.

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>> There's no software uh CEOs in China.

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>> Interesting. But did you get the invite?

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What's your what's your status with this

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administration because you were

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obviously very famous for, you know,

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being a Democrat on the left? Um, and

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>> I'm not a Democrat on the left. I never

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have been.

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>> What are you talking about? You donated

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to all these folks and now you're kind

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of in Trump's camp. What is it?

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>> Listen, um, uh, the number one thing is,

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hey, I'm here to support the country.

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>> That's what I do.

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>> Okay.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So, you're right in the middle. You have

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uh an allegiance to America.

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>> I hope so.

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>> Yeah.

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>> I'm not a Democrat or Republican.

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>> You're an independent.

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>> I'm an American.

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>> Okay. I like it. Ben off got the invite

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to the two hottest tickets. He got the

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invite to Windsor Castle in Tales and

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then he got the invite uh when Prince

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Charles came here too. I saw he was in

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Tales then too.

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>> And also we were at that Saudi dinner

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too. Weren't you there?

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>> I did not go to that one. All right.

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Well, we have a big docket here. The

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Trumpi summit has begun. That is the

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number one story right now after a

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two-month delay because of the war in

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Iran. This is the first visit to China

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since 2017.

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Seventh face-to-face meeting for Trump

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and President Xi. There are 12 hours, 15

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hours ahead of us. Today, Thursday was

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officially day one. Here's what

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happened. China agreed that the straight

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of Hormuz should remain open with no

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military commitment and that Iran should

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not have a nuclear weapon. So, we're in

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sync on that. On Taiwan, this is a

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little spicy. She warned that quote if

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handled poorly the two countries will

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collide or even clash putting the entire

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USChina relationship in an extremely

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dangerous situation. Poly market says

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Taiwan is safe for 2026 only 6% chance

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China invades this year on 23 million in

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volume which is a lot of volume 17%

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chance roughly triple

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that something happens by the end of

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2027. There's been a lot of debate. Uh

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some people say it will happen after

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Trump is out of office. Some people

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think it's going to happen while he's in

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office on trade. She committed to buy

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more soybeans, US oil,

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LNG, and 200 Boeing jets. She said the

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talks laid out a vision for

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constructive, strategic, and stable

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ties. Uh Trump was effusive in his

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praise uh for his friendship, giving the

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disclaimer that people don't like it

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when he praises she. Let's stop here and

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have a bit of a discussion. Freedberg,

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you uh have been a bit obsessed with

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this relationship and the bipolar

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nature of it. What are your thoughts

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here? And what is the goal for Trump?

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What is winning for Trump coming out of

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this? What is winning for she?

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I mean, she made comments in his uh

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opening remarks that it would be ideal

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if the United States and China could

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avoid the Thusidities trap, which as

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you'll recall, we talked about with

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Graeme Allison and we've talked about

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several times over the last few years

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that as a a rising power meets a kind of

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declining power, there's always some

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moment where you end up in this kind of

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state of conflict. And the question is,

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can the US and China avoid conflict and

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find a path to cooperation, which has

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happened a few times in history when we

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found ourselves in this moment, but

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doesn't often happen. And I think the

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way to kind of think about the

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opportunity is if you're in a resource

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expansive world where you are increasing

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productivity and increasing production

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globally at an accelerating pace,

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perhaps there's less of a reason to have

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conflict. Perhaps there's a way that uh

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both societies, both countries can

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increase the quality of life for their

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people without taking it away from the

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other side. And in a world where you're

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more resource constrained or resource

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static, that becomes less possible. You

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have to fight and grab land and grab

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territory and grab resources from the

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other side.

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And it seems like in this moment when we

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are seeing these extraordinary

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technology shifts unlocked by AI and

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automation and biotech and all of these

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kind of moments of which could be true

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abundance ahead of us. It seems like the

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perfect moment to say hey maybe the

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world can be more multipolar. It doesn't

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need to be uniolar. It doesn't need to

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be bipolar but everyone can participate

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in the expansion of the pie. And I think

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that that's kind of the idealistic way

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to look at the opportunity in front of

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the administration and Chinese

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leadership right now. Is there a way to

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kind of look at the next 30 years and

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ask the question, how do we all share

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proportionally in growing the pie and

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not find ourselves in a moment of

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conflict where we assume the pie is

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static? That's I think hopefully the

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message that comes out of this from an

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administration political perspective. It

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just seems like this is going to be a

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major coup for the president if he can

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walk away with a series of trade deals

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with China that increase job security,

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increase prosperity, increase income

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levels, increase investment in America

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and American jobs. It would be a huge

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win. And I think that's the tactical

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stuff that people will be truly looking

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for. And I think the big strategic

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question which I care most about which

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is avoiding conflict. Is there a way we

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can chart an economic and cooperative

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path that doesn't involve eating each

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other and involves sharing in a bigger

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pie?

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>> Chimoth, why is Trump bringing all of

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these CEOs with him and what does

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success look like uh coming out of this

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meeting?

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>> I think that you find a resolution and a

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path forward with China through economic

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cooperation. It's the largest consumer

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economy in the world.

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It's still largely closed off. And so I

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think what this is was about bringing

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some amount of financial firepower with

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them so that they could start to

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penetrate that market. Planes, cars,

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chips, you know, very much hard

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equipment type stuff. I've said this

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before, but I think the Chinese are very

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much a top- down confusion societal

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philosophy,

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whereas Americans are much more bottoms

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up kind of an individualist

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construction.

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The fact that we're so different

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actually gives us a lot of room to find

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cooperation and not find conflict. And I

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think at the center of that is economic

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cooperation. I had a friend call me this

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morning, very prominent Democrat. And

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you know, he was the one that called out

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the media, which I was surprised by, and

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he said, you know, the media gets it all

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wrong because they're talking about why

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is he bringing these CEOs? And instead

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the reality is that the simplest and

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shest path to a no conflict dant with

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China is economic entanglement and it

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has to be birectional because really for

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so many years it's been one way where

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they're sending us the cheap goods that

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they've wanted.

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So I think strategically it's good and I

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think you know I'll just take a slightly

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different take on what Freick said. I

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think behind closed doors they're

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probably just figuring out how to divide

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the pie.

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>> Uh unpack that for a second. divide

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which pie the the globe the economy the

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the western hemisphere versus

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>> look China China still needs a lot of

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energy they also need a lot of critical

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technologies that America provides and

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so I think that there's a trade there

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and the quit proquo is there are certain

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regions of the world where we want them

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to deescalate their participation in

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central South America being probably the

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most important and then the second is

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probably in the Middle East and then

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maybe the third is just to find some

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reasonable view of the Asia pack region

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together and I think there's a trade

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there to be done and in that you kind of

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start to carve up the world into a

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pretty easily identifiable bipolar

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construction.

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They also uh Mark need customers uh to

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buy their goods and we've had a bit of a

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uh mixed signals there. Tariffs

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obviously last year sticking it to China

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in a pretty hard way. the decoupling

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after COVID. Hey, we need to be

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independent energy, PPE, drugs, chips

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from China. Now, we're kind of saying,

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hey, let's come to the table and build

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connective tissue. So, sort that out for

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us on a business level. Should the two

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countries be deeply entwined? And then

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how do we manage having too much

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dependency on China?

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Well, you heard it today from President

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Xi when he said he wants a wider door.

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And that means that he wants the door of

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business to open even wider between the

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two countries. We have our absolute best

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salespeople there. Not just our

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president, who has to be one of the best

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salespeople I've ever met, but also

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we've got Elon, we've got Jensen selling

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chips,

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>> Kelly Ortberg selling planes,

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>> Kelly selling planes. He's already sold

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200. He wants to sell financial

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services.

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>> Brian is selling soybeans. Brian Sykes,

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the CEO of Cargle. You know, Cargle is

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the world's largest private company

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based in Minneapolis and he is going to

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come away selling a lot of soybeans. So,

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we have a you go through the list of the

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CEOs. Each one is our best salesperson

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in this category and they're going to

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come back with orders and it's going to

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be amazing. And by the way, I think you

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said it very well. you know, this idea

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of business is this kind of greatest

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platform for change. Um, they are

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working together like never before.

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Don't forget, this isn't Trump's and

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she's first meeting. These guys really

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like each other. They are very connected

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together. You can see they're smiling

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with each other. They're very they have

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a sales orientation. So, I expect a lot

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of order books to come back.

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>> I have a question for you. Are you

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allowed to sell software in China? We uh

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well with the right the Chinese have a

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lot of data residency laws. So uh you

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know we we do it is we don't have any

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offices or employees in China. We never

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have. The only time we end up with any

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residue in China is when we buy a

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company and they have a presence over

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there and then we have to devest from

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it. We have an exclusive partnership

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with Alibaba. Everything just goes

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through them and we we don't do anything

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in China.

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>> Is it significant growing? Is it what

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percentage of your revenue is it?

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>> Yeah, it's it's great. You know, we have

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it's a great partnership. Key customers

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of Salesforce like Louis Vuitton, you

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know, or Laura Piana, I know Chimoth

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loves Laura Piana.

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>> Yeah.

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>> And you know, Laura Piana sells a lot of

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sweaters in China and then, you know, in

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all other stores all over the world,

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they use Salesforce, but in China, it's

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Salesforce on Alibaba.

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>> It's still your code, but then it

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resides in their servers for data

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residency stuff. their data residency,

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their their partnership. It's a totally

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unique relationship. It's the only place

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in the world that we do such a thing.

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>> Yeah. And it has to be all the data has

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to be kept in China. All the data has to

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be accessible by the CCP.

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>> That's why it's so extraordinary. By the

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way, what Elon has, you know, Elon has

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Tesla in China, no partnership. He's the

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only one. He has a phenomenal

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relationship with Shei. When you look at

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she and um Elon together, notice how

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differential and respectful they are of

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each other. And here is these AI cars

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with all these cameras, Americanmade,

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you know, um Chinese factories driving

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around China. That is pretty incredible.

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>> How do you think he pulled that off? Is

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that just a one-off exception?

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>> I think Elon's the greatest salesman in

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the world. That's how

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>> I mean the cynical take on a chim would

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be they wanted him there and they wanted

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to study the company and the innovation

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and they have now become the biggest

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competitor uh with their EVs and so it

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is a pretty coopetition I guess it would

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be the cynical way to do

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>> I want one of those new BYD golf you

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know uh uh what do you call those with

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the doors that flip flip up

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>> Gwing

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>> Gwing I want one of those Gwing BYDs

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they have some cool cars have you seen

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those.

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>> They're cool, but they're not safe.

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>> They're incredible.

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>> They're talking in this in this they

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they said they're talking about bringing

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some of those cars to the US. That would

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be incredible.

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>> Uh would hollow out the entire

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automotive industry here if we had

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$20,000, $30,000 cars from China. It

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would be the end of the US automotive

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industry overnight. And uh Tim Cook's

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there. He has to store all his data

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there. That's been a pretty

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controversial issue for him because

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Freedberg, if anybody has private

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information or is a dissident, Tim Cook

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has to give that data over to the

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Chinese Communist Party. How do you

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think this plays in America visav the

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midterms? Freedberg, Americans feel

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ignored, inflation over 3% and they look

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at the Iran war as a betrayal by

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President Trump and they look at China

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as not material to their well-being. So

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when you look at Trump being on a

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six-month timeline for the midterms and

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he's only got two more years in office

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after that, you got she who's working

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off of a hundredyear playbook. How does

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that dynamic play out with Trump and the

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midterms and his core constituency,

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MAGA, which is now evolving into America

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first, America only? And this kind of is

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is rubbing that group of people the

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wrong way.

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>> I think the second and third order

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effects of anything that comes out of

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China is what's going to be most

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consequential to the average voter,

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which is job security and income

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security and income growth. And then

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cost of living impact. The cost of

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living impact would be if there can be

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some deflationary effect from a trade

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deal that makes access to goods lower

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price for Americans. And then anything

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that America is exporting, there's

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increased demand. Like there's a

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follow-on effect to the soybean export

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market.

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There's a follow-on effect obviously to

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the oil export market. There's a

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follow-on effect to for example

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technology and software being exported.

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So that increases economic productivity

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in the US and increases job security

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income. And then the other side of the

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trade deal is can we get stuff that

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Americans really care about and make it

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cheaper. Can people now buy stuff at the

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store that drops in price by 30 40%

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where we've kind of tariffed and reduce

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trade that increases the price of

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things. So if those deals kind of get

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worked out, people will see things get

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cheaper at the store and they'll feel

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good about kind of their income

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security. And I think that could be

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positive. I think that's what's

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ultimately going to make people make the

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blue red decision when they go to the

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polls in November.

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>> That's the schizophrenic nature of this

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chimoth. We have Americans who very much

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want cheap goods from China and then we

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have last year all these tariffs being

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put on and we have this great

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decoupling. So, how do you handicap the

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midterms, Trump's timeline and she's

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timeline and what their goals are and

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then I guess we'll get to Taiwan after

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that.

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>> I don't know. No, it's I think it's a

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little bit above my pay grade. But what

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I will say is that the midterms I think

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are probably going to swing more based

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on these recent jerrymandering rulings

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from the Supreme Court and what happened

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in the Virginia Supreme Court and what's

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going to happen in the state

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legislatures of these red states and

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some of these blue states more than

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what's going to come out of this summit

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with with President Xi. So let me just

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put that over here. And I think that

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money is getting organized. There was an

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article in the New York Times this week

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which really surprised me, but the

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largest donor in the in this election

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cycle is Andre and Horowitz.

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>> Yeah. What is that about? Yeah.

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>> I think it's because they're they're

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trying to establish themselves as part

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of the financial firmament of America,

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which I think strategically as a

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business makes a lot of sense. Like

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they're in the AUM business, right? So

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they can't stop at 100 billion of AUM.

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They're marching towards a trillion.

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they're going to be the next Blackstone,

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which I think is an incredible feat and

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they're building a juggernaut of a

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business. But I think they also realize

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that politics is now a permanent part of

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that if they're going to be investing in

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higher quantum more geopolitically

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influenced parts of the capital cycle

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and parts of the economy. So I think the

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midterms are largely that the money

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that's going to be raised plus the

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gerrymandering that will get done and

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undone over the next few months. Again I

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think I think the the Chinese and the

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and the Americans have a very strong

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incentive to kind of divide up the

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world. Like I think the future at this

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point you have these critical resource

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inputs. China has a strangle hold. You

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have energy and

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intelligence AI where America has a

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strangle hold on one and an effective

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strangle hold on the other which is

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energy and I think there's a trade there

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to be done and as long as you can

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negotiate what a reasonable give and

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take is I think they're just going to

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find common ground like does China

00:17:20

really need to be in Chile and Venezuela

00:17:23

and Panama? Probably not. Does America

00:17:25

have to have an incredibly strong point

00:17:27

of view about the straight of Malaa?

00:17:30

Probably not. And so there's probably a

00:17:32

trade to be done so that we can get

00:17:34

their rare earths, they can get some

00:17:36

more oil, everybody can be happy, and we

00:17:38

can all find abundance.

00:17:40

>> Yeah. The the key issue here is China is

00:17:42

and most people are, you know,

00:17:44

chinophobic, but China has serious

00:17:47

systematic issues with population, with

00:17:50

their real estate, with their GDP. All

00:17:52

of this is in decline.

00:17:54

And I think she most of all is concerned

00:17:58

about another Tianaan Square if he

00:18:00

doesn't get more people working. They've

00:18:02

had the largest growth of any middle

00:18:04

class

00:18:06

you know in history. They have the

00:18:07

largest middle class in the world. I

00:18:08

think uh you were sort of referencing

00:18:10

that Mark with luxury goods and luxury

00:18:12

goods providers are going there but it's

00:18:15

tenuous uh

00:18:16

>> and that's the number one by the way

00:18:18

that is the number one point of focus of

00:18:20

President Xi. President Xi's focus has

00:18:24

been getting 500 million people from

00:18:26

poverty into the middle class.

00:18:28

>> It's not exactly how we think about the

00:18:30

world in the United States. That's the

00:18:33

main focus of the political leader and

00:18:34

and he's achieved that. That that has

00:18:37

been an incredible accomplishment

00:18:38

>> and and but it's at risk right now

00:18:40

because their GDP is falling. They need

00:18:42

their factories to operate. They're

00:18:44

being undercut by other regions. And

00:18:46

then of course Taiwan is what they want

00:18:49

uh most of all and supremacy in you know

00:18:52

their part of the world.

00:18:53

>> I'm not convinced of that actually.

00:18:55

>> I think what they want Oh, I mean I

00:18:57

think we just kind of said it and to

00:18:59

summarize they they want to have you

00:19:02

know economic success. They want to

00:19:04

continue to grow their middle class.

00:19:06

They want to continue to have a healthy

00:19:07

economy. They want more trade. I thought

00:19:10

it was interesting that they're talking

00:19:12

about Trump is talking about not only

00:19:13

having the board of peace now he wants a

00:19:15

board of trade. That was a discussion

00:19:17

we've never heard before today. Then uh

00:19:20

we have she saying I want the wider

00:19:22

door. Then we have all these folks there

00:19:25

are selling their products. Two people

00:19:26

we didn't mention the co Visa and the

00:19:29

CEO of Mastercard are on the trip. Now

00:19:31

why is that? Because if you look at you

00:19:34

know commerce in China it is dominated

00:19:37

by companies like Alibaba and and these

00:19:39

organization who use these super apps.

00:19:41

It's not really all the way open for a

00:19:44

Visa and a Mastercard. That would be

00:19:46

incredible for those executives. So in

00:19:48

the same way that we want to sell

00:19:50

airplanes, we want to sell chips,

00:19:52

Nvidia, the Qualcomm coristiano is also

00:19:54

there, we want to sell soybeans, we want

00:19:57

to sell payment services, we want to

00:19:58

sell everything. The more economic

00:20:01

collaboration and cooperation you can

00:20:02

get between the two countries, the more

00:20:04

peace you're going to have. I think 100%

00:20:08

I agree.

00:20:09

>> Three, three hard questions, Mark. Uh,

00:20:10

should we be selling them the latest

00:20:12

chips? Yes or no? In your mind,

00:20:16

>> I think it's irrelevant at this point. I

00:20:17

think that the Chinese models are as

00:20:19

competitive as these US models and

00:20:22

they've learned to make these models

00:20:23

without having the highest end chips. I

00:20:26

think the highest end chips is kind of

00:20:27

more of a ego gratification for us. We

00:20:30

have Blackwell, we have this, we have

00:20:31

that. But when you look at their models,

00:20:34

their models are excellent. They fast

00:20:36

follow us. You know, the best models we

00:20:38

had ago, they have now.

00:20:40

>> Should they should we just sell it to

00:20:42

them since they're figuring it out

00:20:43

anyway, Mark?

00:20:45

>> We probably should just sell whatever we

00:20:46

can at this point. Got it.

00:20:48

>> And uh I think that as I said, I think

00:20:51

the more economic cooperation and

00:20:53

collaboration is better. And if you want

00:20:54

peace, I think that this

00:20:57

>> I think Taiwan, it's kind of a circle

00:21:00

back to that. Yeah.

00:21:01

>> Freeberg, uh, your take on chips. Should

00:21:04

we sell them latest chips? And then

00:21:05

Chimat, I want to get the answer to that

00:21:07

question from each of you.

00:21:08

>> I think it's inevitable that they get

00:21:09

there. I, by the way, I do think this is

00:21:11

one of the key aspects of this deal.

00:21:13

I've said this before, but maybe Taiwan

00:21:16

becomes less relevant to the US and to

00:21:18

China as both China and the US um,

00:21:20

mainland FAB. So, as we build out our

00:21:23

own

00:21:24

>> manufacturing capacity here in the US,

00:21:26

and I know we've struggled and there are

00:21:28

fits and starts and issues with it and

00:21:29

whatnot, but the the TSMC facility in

00:21:32

Arizona is running, they're printing,

00:21:35

and if it works and they figure out how

00:21:37

to scale it. There'll be other

00:21:38

facilities in the US and then China's

00:21:40

mainlanding with Huawei standing up a

00:21:42

lot of facilities. They've got a multi-

00:21:44

I think I talked about this on one of

00:21:45

the shows, a multi-deion

00:21:47

government investment in ensuring

00:21:49

competitiveness not just with fabs but

00:21:52

also with semiconductor manufacturing

00:21:54

equipment so that they don't get cut off

00:21:56

on the supply chain with companies like

00:21:57

ASML blocking sales into mainland. So as

00:22:01

they build out their own semiconductor

00:22:03

capital equipment systems and their own

00:22:06

fabs, does Taiwan really matter? Is

00:22:08

there really that much of a security

00:22:10

risk to the United States and to China

00:22:12

in that sense? And perhaps what

00:22:13

everyone's focused on, which is this

00:22:15

pivot point around Taiwan. Maybe it's

00:22:17

not that the US is selling Taiwan down

00:22:19

the river, but it's just that no one

00:22:21

gives a [ __ ] anymore. So, you know,

00:22:23

there may be this kind of cultural

00:22:24

moment for China where they want to at

00:22:26

some point say, "Hey, by 2040," which I

00:22:28

think is what I've heard, they want to

00:22:29

be able to kind of, you know, bring

00:22:31

Taiwan fully into the sphere. maybe the

00:22:34

US shouldn't care that much at that

00:22:36

point from a economic and security

00:22:38

perspective. So I think that's that's

00:22:40

one of the things that's happening that

00:22:41

>> so you're in the camp of sell the chips

00:22:43

to them and it will demotivate the TSMC

00:22:49

or the capture of those fast.

00:22:51

>> Put it this way. I think the more the

00:22:53

global productivity index can climb, the

00:22:57

better off all humans will be. So the

00:23:00

question is, do you really want the west

00:23:02

to see their productivity index climb

00:23:04

and then you're effectively forcing

00:23:06

conflict and forcing issues with the

00:23:08

east? Or if we all grow our productivity

00:23:11

index, we all make more stuff, everyone

00:23:13

benefits, everyone has better jobs,

00:23:15

everyone makes more money, everyone has

00:23:16

access to more stuff, the cost of goods

00:23:18

comes down for everyone, doesn't that

00:23:20

make the world a safer and more secure

00:23:21

place?

00:23:22

>> Sure. So I think this idea that like

00:23:23

technology should be held to one uh side

00:23:27

of the world and not given to the other

00:23:28

side of the world is inevitably going to

00:23:30

lead to conflict or increase the

00:23:32

probability of conflict. Whereas if you

00:23:34

let technology diffuse and proliferate,

00:23:37

everyone benefits and conflict indices

00:23:39

go down.

00:23:39

>> It's commoditized, you know, and

00:23:42

everybody has access to it. So then it

00:23:44

it becomes

00:23:44

>> you give everyone a higher standard of

00:23:46

living and you give everyone's economy a

00:23:48

boost and you give everyone less reason

00:23:49

to fight with each other. Since you went

00:23:50

there with Taiwan, should we take our

00:23:53

arm sales off of the table, Freedberg?

00:23:56

And should we ask China to not sell arms

00:23:58

to Iran?

00:24:01

>> Yes, we should ask China to not sell

00:24:02

arms to Iran.

00:24:04

>> Yeah.

00:24:04

>> Okay.

00:24:05

>> I don't know what there is. What is

00:24:06

there to talk about there? Because I

00:24:08

think what she wants is for us to not

00:24:10

sell arms to Taiwan. So, would you make

00:24:14

that trade, I guess, is what I'm saying.

00:24:15

>> Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good

00:24:17

question. And I think in that context

00:24:19

that's that's a nuance one. I don't

00:24:20

>> that's why I bring it up because that

00:24:22

seems to be

00:24:23

>> generally you're right. Yeah. I mean

00:24:24

generally that's probably a a trade that

00:24:28

you know that should be kind of trade do

00:24:30

the deal.

00:24:30

>> So you say make the trade

00:24:32

>> chimath. I mean I kind of know

00:24:34

>> we're 18 months from Taiwan not being an

00:24:38

important moment of conversation the way

00:24:41

it is today. Why 18 months? because we

00:24:43

are at a point where we're probably 1

00:24:45

to2 nanometers away from being able to

00:24:48

do what we need Taiwan to strategically

00:24:51

do for us. And so as we scale up our

00:24:54

chip fabs, as we get more capacity and

00:24:57

interestingly there are these orthogonal

00:24:59

technologies being developed. I don't

00:25:01

know if you guys saw but neuralink was

00:25:03

showcasing now a machine that is

00:25:06

literally operating at the

00:25:09

almost nanometer scale to do the brain

00:25:11

operations for the implantation all

00:25:13

automatically. So when when you when you

00:25:15

have the dexterity and the capability

00:25:17

mechanically to make these things, the

00:25:19

real reason then is a very different one

00:25:21

than what it is today. Today it's

00:25:22

economic and if you take that off the

00:25:24

table, I think we'll have a very

00:25:25

different attitude to Taiwan. That's

00:25:26

number one. Number two, sell the chips.

00:25:28

>> And the reason we should sell the chips

00:25:30

is we want Nvidia to win. We do not want

00:25:32

to give enough oxygen for Huawei to then

00:25:35

all of a sudden emerge and have a

00:25:37

version of a chip that works. And what

00:25:38

Mark said is totally right. These models

00:25:41

are catching up. They're almost at the

00:25:43

same pace. So the more important thing,

00:25:45

Jason, is probably we should all agree

00:25:47

is just like let's have a reasonable KYC

00:25:50

for how the models get used so that you

00:25:52

know somebody in a basement doesn't cook

00:25:54

up some boweapon. Meanwhile, sell the

00:25:57

chips. Proliferate. Let Jensen win. I'd

00:26:00

rather he win than Huawei win.

00:26:01

>> Mark, I'm going to give you the last

00:26:02

word, but I'm going to force you to

00:26:03

answer a hard question. China sets up a

00:26:06

blockade around Taiwan and they decide

00:26:08

they're taking it. Should the US defend

00:26:09

it? Yes or no? I I've said this for

00:26:12

years. I I don't agree with Neil

00:26:13

Ferguson on that point. I think that

00:26:15

this is a nonsense issue. I think China

00:26:17

and Taiwan will reconcile. I think that

00:26:20

uh Well, first of all, I do want to

00:26:22

schedule though Chimath for that neural

00:26:24

link. Um next Tuesday 5:00 we can drill

00:26:27

your brain. Chimoth, can I get you in?

00:26:30

>> What are you trying to do? Put some

00:26:31

empathy into Chimoth. I talked to Elon.

00:26:33

He said it doesn't. You just drill right

00:26:35

in. There's a and boom. And then well,

00:26:38

you can get hooked up. It is the

00:26:40

craziest thing.

00:26:41

>> I know. I got you scheduled at 5:00 on

00:26:44

Tuesday tomorrow. Hold your hand if

00:26:46

you're too nervous.

00:26:47

>> And by the way,

00:26:50

finally had a hard literally like

00:26:56

for a even better show.

00:26:57

>> Abs. It would be incredible. Yes. And uh

00:27:02

I would laugh and I would giggle. We

00:27:05

could get into show tunes here. Free

00:27:07

break. I know you're um Yeah. not big on

00:27:09

on the show too.

00:27:10

>> If I only had a heart.

00:27:11

>> If I only had a brain.

00:27:13

>> A heart. A brain. And what's the third

00:27:15

one?

00:27:16

>> If I only had a neural link.

00:27:19

>> You got to give you courage. REEDBERG.

00:27:25

>> OKAY, move on.

00:27:26

>> All right, let's move on here.

00:27:27

>> Your [ __ ] By the way, I took kids.

00:27:30

>> Tim stayed home. I took his kids to the

00:27:32

Wizard of Oz at the sphere. It was

00:27:34

incredible. If you haven't seen it,

00:27:37

>> yeah. do something enriching with my

00:27:40

kids or hit the crafts table.

00:27:43

>> No, I I'll be honest with you. I get a

00:27:45

little freaked out in large

00:27:50

>> like groups of people.

00:27:51

>> Yeah, I get I get a No, just just like

00:27:53

when there's a lot of people, I get very

00:27:54

nervous.

00:27:56

>> Really?

00:27:56

>> Is this because of your newfound

00:27:58

celebrity? Is this is that the issue or

00:28:00

just always like No, I don't even want

00:28:01

to go there. I just have these bad

00:28:03

thoughts of like, oh my god, what if

00:28:04

something happens? How do we get out and

00:28:06

like

00:28:06

>> terrorist attack?

00:28:08

panic disorder. I don't know. Yeah,

00:28:10

exactly. You have panic disorder.

00:28:12

>> Panic disorder.

00:28:12

>> I don't I don't like these large spaces

00:28:14

with lots of people. I get a little

00:28:15

winded up.

00:28:16

>> Anyway, your kids had a great time.

00:28:18

Great show.

00:28:19

>> Tony Robbins lives very near you,

00:28:20

Shimoth. Don't you think we can get that

00:28:22

to happen?

00:28:22

>> Yeah. Let's get Tony Robbins in there to

00:28:24

clear that blockage. You're a Tony

00:28:26

Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into

00:28:27

Tony Robbins?

00:28:28

>> I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my

00:28:30

conference this week. It was incredible.

00:28:31

Actually, he did an incredible

00:28:33

presentation.

00:28:33

>> Did he unlock for you your success? He

00:28:36

claims to that he has you on the roster

00:28:38

of $50,000 a year CEOs?

00:28:40

>> I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins.

00:28:42

So I mean

00:28:44

>> what percentage of your success is

00:28:45

attributed to Tony's mentorship?

00:28:47

>> Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I

00:28:49

don't think there would be a sales

00:28:50

force. So there you go.

00:28:51

>> Can you actually no jokes aside, can you

00:28:53

tell us like what like what like what

00:28:56

were those big kind of blockages and how

00:28:58

did you how did he help you or how did

00:28:59

you work through it?

00:29:00

>> Just focusing on hey the questions you

00:29:02

know the quality of your questions is

00:29:04

the quality of your life. It's that

00:29:05

insight and just are you asking yourself

00:29:07

the right questions. What do you want?

00:29:08

What's important to you? How are you

00:29:10

getting it? What is preventing you from

00:29:12

having it? How will you know that you

00:29:14

have it? Just no one had ever said that

00:29:16

to me. And then it was just like clear

00:29:17

to me, wait, I need to write that down.

00:29:19

Like what do I really want right now?

00:29:21

What is my point of focus?

00:29:23

>> And that is what gave me motivation as

00:29:26

soon as I got that clarity. I mean, a

00:29:28

lot of us do it automatically, but

00:29:29

that's not where I was when I was a kid.

00:29:31

That's for sure.

00:29:32

>> Did you run across the coals? Did you do

00:29:34

any of that kind of stuff?

00:29:35

>> Oh, I've many times.

00:29:36

>> Really?

00:29:37

>> Yeah, of course.

00:29:38

>> Okay, there it is, folks.

00:29:39

>> Hey, we can go together.

00:29:41

>> Uh, absolutely. We had Tony on the show.

00:29:43

I tried to get in there and understand

00:29:45

his psychology, but he just had us do

00:29:47

breathing exercises. All right. The uh

00:29:50

All-In Summit is happening again. Fifth

00:29:53

year in a row. Wow. We've been doing

00:29:54

this for a while. Allin.com/events

00:29:57

September 13th, 14th, and 15th. We'll

00:30:00

have you back, Mark, in year six. But

00:30:03

when you score so highly on a keynote,

00:30:05

we give you two years off so that we can

00:30:07

build up the anticipation. So coming in

00:30:09

2027, our guy Mark Benning off. But for

00:30:12

this year, uh, allin.com/events.

00:30:15

Okay. Topic two, AI's impact.

00:30:16

>> By the way, real quick, can can I just

00:30:18

do a quick PSA?

00:30:19

>> A public service announcement coming.

00:30:21

>> Public service announcement.

00:30:22

>> Yes.

00:30:23

>> Nick, just pull up this link. This dog

00:30:25

named Scooter needs a home.

00:30:27

>> Okay.

00:30:27

>> Promise my wife I do this. Don't get

00:30:29

Don't get mad at me. This dog named

00:30:31

Scooter needs a home. He's in Baldwin

00:30:32

Park. Dog's about to die. Lives in

00:30:35

Baldwin Park at the Animal Care and

00:30:36

Control. They're overwhelmed in LA.

00:30:38

There are so many homeless street dogs

00:30:40

that are being collected. They're all

00:30:41

being put to sleep.

00:30:42

>> Wow.

00:30:42

>> Someone give this dog a home.

00:30:43

>> Gorgeous dog.

00:30:44

>> Scooter.

00:30:45

>> Good dog.

00:30:45

>> Link. Link will be on the YouTube

00:30:47

channel. Thank you very much.

00:30:48

>> Are you getting a little emotional,

00:30:49

Freeberg, about this dog being put down?

00:30:52

>> I just don't like these, you know, all

00:30:53

these street dogs. like they they didn't

00:30:55

choose that situation they were in and

00:30:57

then they all end up kind of getting

00:30:58

pulled in by animal care and control and

00:31:00

then they all get put to sleep. Kind of

00:31:02

sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You

00:31:04

got to have a heart.

00:31:05

>> No, I have a big heart. Chimath, it's

00:31:06

$10,000 to keep these dogs alive for

00:31:08

another week. Can we count on you for

00:31:10

that donation?

00:31:12

>> Any purebred white golden retrievers in

00:31:14

that bunch?

00:31:15

>> No, they're just muts. Just muts.

00:31:17

>> We have a cat that we got at the shelter

00:31:19

actually.

00:31:20

>> Kind of a story. walked into the shelter

00:31:23

looking for a cat. All of a sudden,

00:31:24

we're in the shelter. This cat's like

00:31:26

coming at, you know, my kids and all of

00:31:27

a sudden they're, "Okay, we'll take this

00:31:29

cat." What is this cat's name?

00:31:31

>> This cat's name is Cloud.

00:31:34

>> Cloud.

00:31:34

>> That's our cat.

00:31:35

>> Wow.

00:31:36

>> Absolutely.

00:31:37

>> Yeah. We have Cloud the cat.

00:31:40

>> All right. I like it. That's awesome.

00:31:41

>> All right. AI's impact on software

00:31:43

rippling through the market. Mark,

00:31:45

you're on the front lines here.

00:31:46

>> Thank you for reminding me.

00:31:48

>> Yeah. Well, I mean in pain and suffering

00:31:50

are lessons, right? I think the Buddha

00:31:52

and Tony Robbins both taught us that and

00:31:54

the only way to the other side is

00:31:56

through as you know, Mark. So,

00:31:58

Salesforce down a whopping 37% 90

00:32:01

billion in losses for you. service now

00:32:03

42% workday 45%

00:32:06

180 billion in market cap's been lost

00:32:08

and the assumption mark is that AI is

00:32:13

going to make it unnecessary for you to

00:32:15

use Slack or Salesforce or HubSpot

00:32:17

whatever it happens to be that you'll

00:32:18

just ask your AI to solve this for you

00:32:21

and we'll all look at a piece of glass

00:32:24

and have no actual software the AI will

00:32:27

just tell us what to do what's your

00:32:29

response to the fear the criticism and

00:32:32

how are you managing this massive change

00:32:34

internally?

00:32:35

>> You're right. It's the SAS apocalypse.

00:32:37

Um, I mean, it's not my first SAS

00:32:39

apocalypse, honestly, but it's the

00:32:40

current SAS apocalypse. So, we are all

00:32:42

now drinking at Salesforce Esprillas.

00:32:45

And, uh, we actually have a pet

00:32:47

Sasquatch as well. Yeah, we're all a

00:32:50

little more sassy. That's what I would

00:32:51

say. That's number one.

00:32:53

>> You bring the sass to sass.

00:32:55

>> We got to bring sass to sassy, you know.

00:32:57

And then,

00:32:57

>> well, you've always been a sassy guy.

00:32:59

>> Yeah. And then number two is look the

00:33:02

market is rerated. It's not a mystery.

00:33:04

Everybody knows you know you guys have

00:33:05

been talking about it for a while. I've

00:33:07

been living it. So the market software

00:33:09

market's rerated. It happens every now

00:33:11

and then. There are cycles. You know

00:33:12

I've been doing Salesforce for 27 years

00:33:15

enterprise software for 40 and the

00:33:18

market's rerated. So you mentioned

00:33:20

HubSpot. They're trading at two times

00:33:22

sales. I've never seen that before. They

00:33:25

just had a great quarter. We saw a lot

00:33:27

of great quarters. I looked at the top

00:33:28

10 major enterprise software companies.

00:33:30

They all had great quarters and they're

00:33:33

all trading in two time sales. So why?

00:33:36

Because of everything you just said.

00:33:38

There's like, you know, a hypnosis

00:33:39

around AI and, you know, we haven't seen

00:33:42

it show up in the numbers yet. If it

00:33:44

shows up in the numbers, maybe people

00:33:46

will be right. Right now, all we know is

00:33:48

there's still a lot of enterprise

00:33:50

software being sold in the world.

00:33:51

>> So you've been through this. It's not

00:33:53

your first time.

00:33:55

>> This is not my first apocalypse. I mean,

00:33:57

I remember the cases apocalypse of 2020

00:34:00

when COVID happened and all of it, you

00:34:02

know, everything collapsed. There was

00:34:05

the great cases apocalypse in 2016.

00:34:08

What's that?

00:34:09

>> In all sincerity, what's your strategy

00:34:11

and how do you deal with,

00:34:12

>> you know, your internal team? Obviously,

00:34:14

they are compensated through, you know,

00:34:16

stock and this is headwind and you have

00:34:19

competition for employees from OpenAI,

00:34:21

Anthropic, and SpaceX. So, how do you

00:34:24

deal with uh rallying the troops and

00:34:27

then how do you develop a strategy?

00:34:29

>> Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot

00:34:31

easier to be a private company right now

00:34:33

where you don't have to be rationalized

00:34:35

by the public markets. If you're in the

00:34:36

public markets and you get rerated,

00:34:38

that's the reality of being in the

00:34:40

public markets. And I think that for

00:34:42

what I tell my employees, what I just

00:34:44

told my employees is look, you can't get

00:34:46

drunk on the stock price. If you are

00:34:48

like focused on today all the time and

00:34:51

that is how you're getting, you know,

00:34:52

your emotional state, it it's not going

00:34:54

to work for you. You have to find a

00:34:56

different anchor. So I try not to pay

00:34:59

really a lot of attention to it. I'm

00:35:00

focused on my customer success. How is

00:35:03

our revenue? Look, we'll do over 46

00:35:05

billion this year, more than 16 billion

00:35:07

in cash flow. We have more than 83,000

00:35:09

employees. These are the things that I'm

00:35:11

focused on. What is the level of

00:35:13

customer success that we're delivering?

00:35:15

That's a really important I can't

00:35:17

control the stock price. There's nothing

00:35:19

I can do. And for our employees, they

00:35:22

can't control it either. That they need

00:35:24

to believe in the company and the

00:35:25

quality of the success they're

00:35:27

delivering to customers in the long

00:35:29

term. And then you look at the market,

00:35:31

you look at these other companies, not

00:35:32

just us. They're doing great. And I

00:35:35

mean, I saw some great numbers, but it

00:35:37

doesn't really matter. The market's

00:35:38

rerated.

00:35:40

>> Well, you've got all that free cash

00:35:41

flow. You've been great at acquisition.

00:35:43

So, I'm sure you're uh

00:35:44

>> I've bought some great companies, by the

00:35:46

way. Everything's a little cheaper. I

00:35:48

like that.

00:35:48

>> Yeah. Chimoth, what's your take on this?

00:35:50

You've been pretty critical of the SAS

00:35:53

space in previous episodes, pointing

00:35:56

out, hey, how durable are these

00:35:58

revenues? So, what's your take?

00:36:01

>> I think the low end of the market is

00:36:03

basically finished. I think there there

00:36:05

is no safe space. I think the high end

00:36:09

of the market where Mark operates, where

00:36:12

the large monoliths operate is quite

00:36:15

safe and the tell was this week.

00:36:18

The the deployment company deal

00:36:21

basically shows you what OpenAI is

00:36:24

running into. So, you know, you have to

00:36:27

put in $4 billion. You get all of these

00:36:29

folks. You gave them a 17.5% preferred

00:36:33

guaranteed return for what? essentially

00:36:37

to stand up a competitor to Ernston

00:36:38

Young, Anderson, Deote, PWC, Cognizant,

00:36:42

etc. If you just look at that, that

00:36:44

doesn't actually mathematically make

00:36:46

that much sense if you look at what

00:36:48

those companies are actually trading at.

00:36:51

But why is OpenAI doing this? I think

00:36:54

why is because at the high end of the

00:36:56

market where all the action is, what

00:36:59

people are finding is, hey, hold on a

00:37:01

second. This is a lot harder than we

00:37:02

thought. It's not like boop boop boop

00:37:04

put in a put in a prompt and beep boop

00:37:06

it all works. It's not how it works.

00:37:09

>> And so I think I think we're

00:37:12

>> I think we're a little oversold.

00:37:14

>> And I now I think this consolidation and

00:37:16

the rerating can happen in the opposite

00:37:18

direction. So what is the opposite

00:37:20

trade?

00:37:21

>> The opposite trade is who has

00:37:24

constructive net dollar retention, who

00:37:26

has negative churn that's been really

00:37:28

predictable, which is a way of saying

00:37:30

who has the best relationships. meaning

00:37:32

they're inside the CXOs and the seauite.

00:37:35

They have relationships with the CEOs

00:37:37

and they're trusted and they've been

00:37:39

around for 20 years. Those guys, I

00:37:42

think, are positioned to crush because

00:37:44

eventually, Jason, the next trade that

00:37:46

has to happen is when the public markets

00:37:48

become a little bit less breathless

00:37:50

about AI and they ask one simple

00:37:53

question. Okay, guys, you've spent $3

00:37:56

trillion in the last four years. What is

00:37:58

the ROI of these tokens?

00:38:01

And what's going to happen is they're

00:38:04

going to have to go to guys like Mark

00:38:05

and other people and say, "Please sell

00:38:08

my tokens." And that's the next shoe to

00:38:11

drop. If you if you had to ask me. So I

00:38:13

think you're going to see these revenues

00:38:15

which are like way out of whack like the

00:38:16

multiples on revenue, multiples on

00:38:18

assets, multiples of they're not even

00:38:19

multiples of those will come way back

00:38:22

down and I think these go back up and

00:38:25

you'll find a balance.

00:38:26

>> Yeah. And you've uh initiated what could

00:38:29

only be described as an unprecedented

00:38:31

massive stock buyback mark 50 billion.

00:38:34

>> I think it's the one of the largest in

00:38:36

history. Yeah, we we're you know we we

00:38:38

want to buy back as much as we can and I

00:38:43

would just say that you know look at a

00:38:46

high level look there's awesome new

00:38:49

capabilities like these coding agents

00:38:51

are awesome. Enthropic is awesome. like

00:38:53

I am going to probably use $300 million

00:38:56

of Enthropic this year at Salesforce

00:38:58

coding. Everything's going to be cheaper

00:39:00

to make. It's more efficient. I can do

00:39:03

things that I just could not do before.

00:39:04

I can go faster than ever before. I can

00:39:07

implement my software and sell it at the

00:39:09

same time. I've never been able to do

00:39:12

that before. I can break through

00:39:14

obstacles that I've had, you know, just

00:39:16

by focusing because I have coding agents

00:39:20

and humans together working together.

00:39:22

Today I have humans, agents and headless

00:39:25

platforms all interoperating never

00:39:27

before. So the opportunity for my own

00:39:31

company and the efficiency that I have

00:39:33

in my own company in service and support

00:39:35

in distribution in marketing across the

00:39:39

board is unprecedented. What I can do

00:39:41

for our customers unprecedented and you

00:39:44

know to that point my gosh have you seen

00:39:46

Anthropic? I mean it is a rocket ship

00:39:49

that will not stop because you can use

00:39:52

this product to do these incredible

00:39:54

amazing things and then complement it

00:39:56

with platforms like ours. It's you know

00:39:59

it's it's it's it's impossible to

00:40:01

describe what we're going to be able to

00:40:03

do for customers. It's going to be

00:40:04

awesome

00:40:04

>> and never waste a crisis. You've been

00:40:06

super focused on the efficiency of the

00:40:09

company, a headcount, share buybacks,

00:40:11

and I'm guessing you're looking at M&A.

00:40:15

So, it's not your finished up one of our

00:40:19

biggest deals ever, Informatica. I think

00:40:21

it was eight or nine billion dollars.

00:40:24

It's been in it's been awesome because

00:40:27

none of this stuff works if you don't

00:40:28

have context. You know, the AI is very

00:40:31

probabilistic. that is it can kind of

00:40:33

kind of figure things out but it needs

00:40:35

to be grounded in real data and it needs

00:40:37

to have that semantic layer. That means

00:40:39

it needs to be locked down into the

00:40:41

truth into a single source of truth or

00:40:43

it just cannot work well. And so our

00:40:46

customers want more harmonized data,

00:40:48

federated data, integrated data. So we

00:40:51

bought Informatica. Our customers want

00:40:53

our apps to use those large language

00:40:55

models to be able to provide not just

00:40:58

automation to their employees but also

00:41:00

to their agents just like we just said.

00:41:02

So like if you call 1800 no software

00:41:05

right now for the first time in 27 years

00:41:07

you talk to agent force hey agent force

00:41:10

what's happening but then after it

00:41:13

authenticates you and you get in the

00:41:14

system and it doesn't know who you are

00:41:16

then boom it'll autoes escalate you to a

00:41:19

human being who says oh I can see

00:41:21

everything you've been doing oh yeah you

00:41:23

just need to resolve this this and that

00:41:25

and so that trinity of the phone the web

00:41:28

and the human being are all together

00:41:30

it's all made possible buy this AI. We

00:41:33

just could never do that before. That is

00:41:35

awesome.

00:41:36

>> Was it controversial, Mark, to make

00:41:38

Slack headless? Was that a big decision

00:41:40

or was that a was everybody kind of

00:41:42

mostly on board with that?

00:41:43

>> Well, we were the first to, you know,

00:41:45

the way that our platform is architected

00:41:47

and Chimoth, you know it so well cuz

00:41:48

you're coding your coding agents and the

00:41:51

company you're building can run right on

00:41:52

top of it and build awesome stuff also.

00:41:55

So, you know, number one is we were the

00:41:58

first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a

00:42:01

REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We

00:42:06

always wanted to have a platform that

00:42:08

had every API possible. And our apps are

00:42:10

not hardcoded where we had to cut the

00:42:13

top off of them. They've always be

00:42:14

embedded inside our platform. So now we

00:42:17

can stream our apps out through a new

00:42:19

API called AXL and I can manifest it

00:42:22

into any large language model or device

00:42:24

or anything and it just works better

00:42:28

actually.

00:42:29

>> I think that you know when Jack Dorsey

00:42:32

wrote that memo Jal and part of what he

00:42:34

said is

00:42:35

>> he he's going to try to run his company

00:42:37

by building a world model. Yes. My

00:42:39

initial thought was, well, where is the

00:42:41

context, Mark? What you said before,

00:42:42

where's the semantic understanding to

00:42:45

create a world model? And a lot of it

00:42:47

for a lot of companies is actually in

00:42:49

Slack.

00:42:49

>> It's in Slack and email. Yeah, those two

00:42:51

places.

00:42:52

>> I showed you that Slackbot, Jason. I

00:42:54

mean, the thing is all because you run

00:42:56

your company on Slack, all your DMs, all

00:42:59

your channels, we're reading that now

00:43:01

through the AI and we can tell you more

00:43:03

about your business than you know

00:43:05

>> because Slackbot is reading stuff that

00:43:08

>> you know, nobody knew what was happening

00:43:11

and like I'm using that myself, but I

00:43:13

can then connect it into other things.

00:43:15

So, I have the ability to go into

00:43:16

Salesforce and Google and everything.

00:43:18

And so, when I'm on Slackbot, I can ask

00:43:21

it any question about my company. What

00:43:23

are my top five deals? What am do what

00:43:26

are my employees upset about? What are

00:43:28

the top three things I need to focus on?

00:43:30

And then boom, I get the information

00:43:32

because it has the data.

00:43:34

>> I think you should really look at SL

00:43:36

making Slack more open and cheaper and

00:43:40

getting more of that context because

00:43:43

there are limitations in terms of

00:43:45

getting your data out based on like

00:43:47

which plan you're on. It's just too

00:43:49

convoluted. But once I upgraded to a

00:43:52

higher plan and you know it's whatever 6

00:43:54

12 18k for our small company I was able

00:43:57

to get more and more context to my

00:44:00

openclaw plexity computer and claude we

00:44:03

and we're testing all of those and today

00:44:06

I wrote literally before I got on the

00:44:08

show a new prompt that is every two

00:44:12

hours in our Slack tell me what

00:44:14

decisions are being made who's making

00:44:16

those decisions um and what you would

00:44:19

handicap those decisions. If you were my

00:44:21

chief of staff, if you were a CEO or if

00:44:22

you were a board member and I created

00:44:24

personas to now evaluate decision-

00:44:28

making going on just

00:44:29

>> I have to show you the new version of

00:44:31

Slack. You're going to love it, Jason.

00:44:32

And you know that open AI and

00:44:34

enthropping and every AI company is

00:44:36

standardized on Slack. Yes.

00:44:38

>> And by the way, and our core sales cloud

00:44:40

and service clouds as well.

00:44:42

>> So I got to show you what we're doing.

00:44:44

Yeah.

00:44:46

So fun.

00:44:47

>> What's your advice to let's say you were

00:44:49

running a software company that was like

00:44:51

before the AI wave and you're private,

00:44:53

right? There's a bunch of these

00:44:54

companies that were supposed to go

00:44:56

public, didn't go public. What should

00:44:58

they do? Like what do those boards do?

00:45:00

What

00:45:00

>> they here's some Kleenex for them for

00:45:02

all their tears

00:45:05

>> because they're I mean I talked to these

00:45:06

CEOs. They're crying. What my market

00:45:08

cap? I'm not getting paid for my work.

00:45:10

Guys, grow up. You know, that's what I

00:45:12

love about the public markets. They

00:45:14

rationalize everything all the time. So

00:45:16

>> great, be in the public markets. You

00:45:18

want to be in a private market. Your

00:45:20

valuation is fantasy land until

00:45:21

somebody's actually going to pay you. So

00:45:24

I just tell them, hey, you got to focus

00:45:27

on your revenue, focus on your

00:45:28

customers, focus on your cash flow,

00:45:30

focus on your profitability, focus on

00:45:32

your innovation. How are you going to

00:45:34

add value to your customers? That's

00:45:36

what's really truly important.

00:45:39

>> Freeberg, any thoughts from you? We're

00:45:40

doing a big Salesforce implementation at

00:45:42

O'Hollow and I I would say that one of

00:45:45

my observations over the last six months

00:45:47

because we've talked a lot about using

00:45:49

these generative tools is we've kind of

00:45:52

dropped all the vertical software but

00:45:55

we're doubling down our investment in

00:45:57

horizontal tools. So like we're

00:45:58

investing heavily in these platform

00:46:00

capabilities that then we're able to

00:46:03

build apps and workflows on top of them

00:46:05

that are specific to our business rather

00:46:07

than try and buy an offtheshelf app or

00:46:09

workflow tool. So I think that there's

00:46:11

kind of a really interesting moment

00:46:12

right now where we talked about this

00:46:14

last time you could kind of discern

00:46:15

between founder and non-founder

00:46:17

enterprise software. I also think that

00:46:18

there's this kind of vertical horizontal

00:46:20

shift where they're kind of trading the

00:46:23

same right now but you could probably

00:46:24

break them. You could break that trade.

00:46:26

So, I think there's probably a good

00:46:27

arbitrage there.

00:46:28

>> I think everyone who wants to sell those

00:46:30

potato seeds, you know, is going to need

00:46:34

>> some tools to sell them. But the thing

00:46:36

that's kind of cool is, you know, we

00:46:38

have 15,000 salespeople now. So, they're

00:46:40

out there selling these products like

00:46:42

Slack and selling to David and so forth.

00:46:45

But here's the thing that's interesting.

00:46:47

In the last 27 years, we calculated

00:46:50

somewhere between 20 to 30 million

00:46:52

people, we didn't call back. We did not

00:46:55

call them back

00:46:56

>> because we didn't have the people to do

00:46:58

it. So just this week I called back

00:47:01

50,000 people, you know, just through

00:47:04

agents so I can qualify. I just bought a

00:47:07

company called qualified so I can

00:47:09

qualify the agents, call people back the

00:47:11

BDR, the SDR function. I can go

00:47:14

outbound. I can do things I could never

00:47:15

do before. That is made possible by this

00:47:18

AI automation linking it then to the

00:47:21

apps. You can go to another level.

00:47:24

Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. I want to get

00:47:26

everybody's take on this. Open AAI in a

00:47:28

breaking news story is considering suing

00:47:31

Apple over their Chat GPT partnership.

00:47:33

As we all know, two years ago, Apple and

00:47:36

Open AAI announced Chat GPT would

00:47:38

integrate into Siri, iOS, MacOSS. But

00:47:41

according to Bloomberg, the deal has

00:47:43

gone so poorly for OpenAI that they

00:47:45

might sue Apple for breach of contract.

00:47:48

Here are OpenAI's gripes. Apple chat GPT

00:47:51

integration within Siri requires users

00:47:53

to specifically say chat GPT to get

00:47:56

results. We probably all experienced

00:47:57

this if we haven't given up on Siri,

00:47:59

which is the worst personal assistant

00:48:01

ever created. Uh Apple hasn't it's

00:48:03

discretionad to the highest level. Just

00:48:07

discretad with this product. How do you

00:48:09

get there first and you remain worst?

00:48:13

Apple hasn't promoted the integration at

00:48:15

all and users are still overwhelmingly

00:48:18

going to the standalone chat GPT app or

00:48:21

others. OpenAI

00:48:23

expected billions of subscription

00:48:25

revenue from the deal and it hasn't come

00:48:27

to fruition. According to Bloomberg,

00:48:30

Apple's side of the story is, hey, they

00:48:31

have concerns about Open AI's privacy

00:48:34

practices. Maybe they don't trust the

00:48:35

guy in charge over there, which was a

00:48:37

reoccurring theme in the lawsuit. And

00:48:40

they're annoyed that OpenAI, and here is

00:48:43

the palace entry, they're upset that

00:48:48

OpenAI is building hardware to compete

00:48:51

with Apple and that they recruited their

00:48:55

design guru, Johnny IV.

00:48:58

Mark Beni off, you know, the players.

00:49:01

What is going on here? Yeah,

00:49:04

>> you got to trust Sam Alman and Open AI.

00:49:07

I love him. But let's just upscale this

00:49:10

conversation just one second. Listen,

00:49:13

what has happened? What happened is we

00:49:15

have these LLMs. They starting to come

00:49:17

out come out. Every company's kind of

00:49:20

chosen a slightly different path. You

00:49:22

had Elon, he went out, he had Grock and

00:49:24

he kind of started building these

00:49:25

companions and sex bots and all this

00:49:28

kind of stuff going on. And that was a

00:49:29

huge focus of his, the sexbot focus.

00:49:32

Then you kind of had OpenAI and they

00:49:34

were doing the Sora video thing and

00:49:36

they're also doing ad networks and crazy

00:49:38

stuff like that. Then you had Gemini and

00:49:41

they had the Nano Banana and then

00:49:43

finally you've got Enthropic and they go

00:49:45

we don't know about those sex bots and

00:49:46

we don't know about Nano Banana but

00:49:48

we're going to do coding agents. And it

00:49:50

turned out Enthropic was right. And all

00:49:52

of a sudden the rocket ship took off and

00:49:54

now everybody's like, "Whoa, where did

00:49:56

Enthropic go?" Oh, whoa, they're way up

00:49:58

there. And then they're all like, "Where

00:50:00

are all they going to do coding agents

00:50:01

to?" And now they're all resetting and

00:50:04

kind of hitting their buttons and going,

00:50:05

"Coding agents. Everybody focus, focus.

00:50:07

Kill Sarah, kill this. Get rid of that.

00:50:11

Sex bots off." You know, cursor on.

00:50:14

Yeah. And that's where we are right now.

00:50:18

And so everybody, look, this is what's

00:50:20

cool about right now is that everybody,

00:50:22

it's such a dynamic moment in our

00:50:23

industry. It's so exciting that people

00:50:26

have to pivot and you have to be ready

00:50:28

to focus and refocus and constantly ask

00:50:31

the question like, "What do you want

00:50:32

right now?" And everyone is changing

00:50:35

what they really want. And if you looked

00:50:37

at where everybody was a year ago and

00:50:40

where they are now, they're in a totally

00:50:42

different place cuz we all know that

00:50:43

when Enthropic 46 hit, boom, everyone

00:50:47

could code in their companies. And

00:50:49

before that, they really couldn't. It

00:50:50

was a little bit of a productivity

00:50:52

improvement, but not as much as we

00:50:54

wanted. Now everybody sees this and

00:50:56

goes, "Wow, this is unbelievable." We're

00:50:59

even working on technology inside Slack

00:51:02

to make it easier for everybody to code.

00:51:04

So I think it's going to be really

00:51:07

>> breaking news. Breaking news there.

00:51:08

>> You're going to see some cool stuff with

00:51:10

Slack and Code. I'm not ready to talk

00:51:11

about it yet, but there's no question

00:51:14

that uh we are in a new moment in

00:51:16

coding. I mean Chamas got a whole

00:51:18

company around it. A lot of people have

00:51:19

companies around it. There's going to be

00:51:22

before coding was all about humans and

00:51:24

like that's where I started. I was 15

00:51:26

years old, Berlin game high school on

00:51:29

hands-on keyboard writing video games,

00:51:31

you know, basic 68,000 6502,

00:51:35

you know. No, no, now it's like

00:51:38

everyone.

00:51:38

>> How's that changed your org? Is it the

00:51:40

product manager, the developer, or the

00:51:42

UX designer?

00:51:45

>> The creator, or did it all blend into

00:51:46

one blended? And who wins? Who wins?

00:51:49

It's all blended together. And by the

00:51:51

way, to to Mark's point, the hands-on

00:51:53

keyboard thing, you know, most of our

00:51:55

engineers just speak. They So it's like

00:51:58

And so, you know, one of our guys just

00:52:00

has a foot button operated thing and it

00:52:02

just like

00:52:04

that,

00:52:04

>> too. Yeah. Whisper. That's all they do.

00:52:06

Flow plus.

00:52:08

>> It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper

00:52:10

flow and talking. There is no cans on

00:52:12

keyboard anymore.

00:52:13

>> All right. So, let's get back to this

00:52:14

story here.

00:52:14

>> We're going for dolphin flow at

00:52:16

Salesforce.

00:52:18

>> Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you.

00:52:21

Aalo. Um, Freeberg, two questions. One,

00:52:25

now that Sam has shut down the sex

00:52:27

spots, how are you filling that void?

00:52:28

And then number two,

00:52:31

thank you, Jama.

00:52:33

And number two, what's your take on the

00:52:35

strained relationship here between

00:52:37

OpenAI and the world and specifically

00:52:40

the Apple world?

00:52:42

>> I don't know what to tell you. This that

00:52:43

there doesn't seem to be a lot of

00:52:44

long-term partnerships with Open AI.

00:52:47

That's a very uh generous way to say it.

00:52:52

What should Apple do? Should they just

00:52:54

go back to the loving arms of Google

00:52:56

where they made a hundred billion

00:52:59

dollars being partners with them on the

00:53:01

search default your alma

00:53:03

>> I don't know what to tell I mean look at

00:53:04

the end of the day I think Google has a

00:53:07

real opportunity to integrate a Gemini

00:53:09

assistant into all of your personal

00:53:10

information and Gemini and calendar

00:53:13

>> your Google drive your Google photos

00:53:15

where all of your personal information

00:53:16

sits it can become your your point of

00:53:19

calendaring your point of asking it

00:53:21

questions about your personal

00:53:23

Hey, when did I email this person, etc.

00:53:25

And in the enterprise context, I think

00:53:26

that's also up for grabs with G Suite.

00:53:30

And so, Google has a real chance to kind

00:53:32

of own that assistant interface. Maybe

00:53:34

Salesforce does too, Mark. Apple

00:53:36

obviously has an embedded install piece.

00:53:37

How many people are using Apple services

00:53:41

for doing all of their mail, for

00:53:43

calendaring,

00:53:45

for storing their information? I think a

00:53:47

good number.

00:53:49

>> Yeah. So that may end up becoming kind

00:53:51

of the way that the world silos out is

00:53:52

like you'll have an assistant, but the

00:53:55

assistant for it to be truly useful to

00:53:57

you individually, it has to have access

00:53:59

to all of your information. Whether it's

00:54:01

in an enterprise context or a personal

00:54:02

context, Apple is probably going to need

00:54:04

to either build their own or white label

00:54:06

with a partner, could be anthropic,

00:54:08

could be someone else

00:54:09

>> to get this to really work. But but

00:54:11

they're going to be up against a

00:54:12

formidable competitor is my point

00:54:13

because I think Google Assistant is

00:54:14

going to end up be being kind of a real

00:54:16

kick-ass product once they get this

00:54:18

flywheel going. Apple has the clearest

00:54:20

path to becoming, you know, a top two or

00:54:23

three player in AI simply by buying

00:54:26

something like Perplexity or Mistrol or

00:54:29

or or some AI lab and then using their

00:54:33

hardware footprint, which is

00:54:34

extraordinary. I just got this MacBook

00:54:36

with 48 gigs of RAM on it with an M5. It

00:54:39

is unbelievable. And the new ones with

00:54:41

the the Studio coming out are going to

00:54:43

have a terabyte of RAM. they are going

00:54:46

to have a clear path to maintaining your

00:54:48

privacy running local models and that's

00:54:51

going to solve people's problems. It's

00:54:53

going to be very easy to index all your

00:54:55

images without giving the data to OpenAI

00:54:58

which nobody trusts or giving it to

00:55:00

Gemini. And that's I think a big part of

00:55:03

why they picked the current CEO is

00:55:05

because he's an engineer and

00:55:07

hardwarebased. I I think the future of

00:55:08

this is going to be local models running

00:55:10

on extraordinary desktop hardware. And

00:55:13

if you have employees on this level of

00:55:16

hardware running these models local like

00:55:18

I have started to do, they become 10

00:55:20

times more valuable than the employees

00:55:22

not running it. I I think Apple's my

00:55:24

choice for the next year.

00:55:25

>> I'm not a huge believer in these local

00:55:27

models. And the the only reason why is I

00:55:29

think you want persistence. You have

00:55:31

multiple devices. You have multiple

00:55:33

persona. You're using a web browser in

00:55:35

one instance. You're using a different

00:55:36

computer at home in the other. And the

00:55:38

idea that you don't have persistence

00:55:40

that follows you around in 2026, I think

00:55:42

is a breaking feature. So, I think

00:55:45

you're not going to lug around a 5B

00:55:48

MacBook Pro everywhere you go so that

00:55:50

you can get knowledge. Oh, wait. You're

00:55:52

asking, "Oh, wait. I got a diagnosis

00:55:54

from my doctor. Hold on a second."

00:55:57

>> I don't think that's

00:55:59

the game on the field. The game on the

00:56:02

field though is

00:56:03

>> you will uh be able to use iCloud for

00:56:05

this as well. So, it's going to be, you

00:56:08

know, effortlessly.

00:56:10

>> So, well, look, give me your opinion on

00:56:11

this. I think the thing that you're

00:56:14

assuming is that these form factors

00:56:16

don't need to change. And I just wonder

00:56:19

like, don't we have an iPhone moment

00:56:20

that we're just all going to be

00:56:22

surprised by where somebody shows up and

00:56:24

they're like this thing and you're like,

00:56:26

"Oh my god, that's the thing." Do do you

00:56:28

know what I mean? like yeah that that's

00:56:31

I

00:56:32

>> there's enough ingredients here where

00:56:34

somebody's going to cook something up

00:56:35

and then you have to think about Jason

00:56:37

the sunk cost of like you know look

00:56:40

Apple is incredible

00:56:42

but there that's the product of 40 years

00:56:44

30 years of meticulous process

00:56:47

optimization

00:56:48

what do you do if the form factor is

00:56:50

totally different and the nature of the

00:56:51

device is different how do you pivot

00:56:53

that organization

00:56:55

>> you're hitting on something very

00:56:56

important and it dovetales with another

00:56:57

story on the docket mirror Mrage

00:56:59

released thinking machines new real time

00:57:04

world

00:57:04

>> that was impressive

00:57:05

>> and this is super impressive and Apple

00:57:07

at the same time has patented putting

00:57:10

cameras into your AirPods so you're

00:57:12

right and then I use this plug pin I've

00:57:14

talked about it before

00:57:15

>> these persistent hardware devices the

00:57:17

watch the earpieces are going to know

00:57:18

your entire reality they're going to

00:57:20

monitor your entire desktop and this is

00:57:22

going to lead to a a use of tokens that

00:57:26

would be a thousand times what user

00:57:28

business users are currently using

00:57:30

because the way mirror's and we should

00:57:32

have her on the pod or at one of our

00:57:33

events. The way her model works

00:57:35

Freedberg is it's watching your desktop.

00:57:38

It's listening to all the voices and

00:57:40

then it's watching your webcam all at

00:57:42

the same time and every 200 milliseconds

00:57:46

it's uploading it to two different

00:57:47

models. One is deep thinking and looking

00:57:50

backwards, you know, at a maybe a 30-

00:57:52

secondond clip and the other one's in

00:57:54

real time. that will 1,000x the need for

00:57:58

tokens if people are doing this for 8

00:58:00

hours a day cuz it's not the turnbased

00:58:03

here's my latest prompt here's my

00:58:05

question I got a response it's in real

00:58:08

time always querying an LLM which is

00:58:11

going to require a hardware upgrade to

00:58:13

the average desktop Mark Beni off what

00:58:16

are your thoughts on this brave new

00:58:17

world

00:58:18

>> it's one small step for man one giant

00:58:20

leap towards AGI I think that you said

00:58:25

really well. I mean the we are in the

00:58:27

we've been so kind of think that LLM is

00:58:29

the beall end all. We're going to go to

00:58:31

AGI. I don't really understand how large

00:58:34

language models which are only about

00:58:35

language and words and we know how it

00:58:37

works. It's one word one word therefore

00:58:39

the next word is this is going to get us

00:58:41

to where we want to go to which is

00:58:43

minority report or um

00:58:45

>> agreed

00:58:45

>> all the science fiction movies that

00:58:47

we've seen. But what we saw and and I

00:58:49

think Jason you'd really articulated

00:58:51

that super well by the way multiensory

00:58:54

models and multiensory models. Well,

00:58:56

here's a good one. Oh yeah, me. I'm a

00:58:59

multiensory model in a biological

00:59:01

computer. I'm a multiensory model. I've

00:59:03

got these eyes, ears, mouth, you know,

00:59:05

work. Sometimes some brain, heart,

00:59:07

whatever. And some other things going on

00:59:09

too that I don't even understand. And

00:59:11

it's all running in this biological

00:59:13

computer. I'm not exactly a large

00:59:15

language model, though I do have one.

00:59:17

sometimes. So I would say that

00:59:20

multi-ensory models are the next big

00:59:23

wave for AI and then but we're still not

00:59:26

at AGI at that point. But those demos

00:59:28

like the demo of that model that was

00:59:31

pretty everyone should see like that was

00:59:33

pretty awesome. And then I think we can

00:59:36

kind of say hm where are we now on this

00:59:39

on the path? But I think every model

00:59:42

company is kind of go hold on pivot you

00:59:45

know again pivot like saying pivot

00:59:47

everybody's pivoting and you're going to

00:59:49

have to pick your poison and where where

00:59:51

are you going next you know and you

00:59:54

can't do everything you can't

00:59:55

>> you said you were spending 300 million

00:59:57

on tokens with anthropic. Now imagine

01:00:00

what this would do to an average, you

01:00:03

know, employee if they needed a thousand

01:00:08

times the tokens they have now. So

01:00:09

instead of spending 150k in tokens, you

01:00:11

got to spend, you know, a hundred

01:00:13

million. But you have

01:00:15

>> I don't think that's true. I I don't

01:00:17

think that that I think we're getting

01:00:18

brainwashed on that.

01:00:19

>> Okay. So explain.

01:00:21

>> I think that's a mistake to think that

01:00:22

way. See, I think we are wasting a lot

01:00:24

of these tokens. So my coding here's my

01:00:26

I think I convince you this. So here's a

01:00:29

here we're using $300 million of

01:00:30

enthropic this year and we're coding

01:00:32

we're coding we're coding right the vast

01:00:35

majority of those tokens don't need to

01:00:36

go to enthropic there needs to be some

01:00:39

intermediary layer layer that's saying

01:00:41

oh oh that one has to go to enthropic

01:00:43

but these ones can handle by smaller

01:00:45

models

01:00:47

that can route it to the most affordable

01:00:49

for the job it's such an early moment

01:00:52

you know it's an early moment and you're

01:00:54

and I want to connect back to what you

01:00:55

said before which was brilliant Jason

01:00:57

which because the importance of the edge

01:00:59

because the edge and the cloud are going

01:01:02

to come together. Okay. And yes, you're

01:01:05

going to have more distributed

01:01:06

intelligence. It's going to work

01:01:08

together. That's going to makes a ton of

01:01:09

sense what you said. What Chama said was

01:01:12

also completely right. You were both

01:01:14

right. Then you combine it to this idea.

01:01:17

Let's put it together where we're going.

01:01:18

Yes, we're going to have more

01:01:19

distributed intelligence. We're going to

01:01:21

have intelligence on the edge. We're

01:01:22

going to have multiensory models. And

01:01:25

yes, you're going to do coding. And it's

01:01:26

going to be more efficient though. So to

01:01:28

think that it's going to be always so

01:01:30

expensive, that is just the moment of

01:01:33

time that we're at right now. And I

01:01:35

think there's going to be a hot new

01:01:36

company that's going to come along and

01:01:38

say this. I'm going to sit between you

01:01:41

and Anthropic and Open AAI and I'm going

01:01:44

to make sure that they you only need

01:01:46

their tokens when you actually need

01:01:49

them.

01:01:50

>> And that is not really where we are

01:01:51

right now.

01:01:53

>> Does that make sense what I'm saying?

01:01:54

Like you're like%

01:01:56

>> it's like oh I need a shower and Okay,

01:01:59

great. All the water. No, no, no. I just

01:02:01

need some water. I don't need all the

01:02:03

water.

01:02:04

>> Yeah.

01:02:04

>> Okay.

01:02:05

>> All right. Listen, we uh have two final

01:02:08

topics here. We could talk about

01:02:09

anthropic unrolling the dark SPVS and

01:02:12

the impact that has on the market. Or we

01:02:15

can go to everybody's favorite science

01:02:17

corner.

01:02:18

>> Well, do both. Just do a quick uh around

01:02:20

the around the neighborhood.

01:02:21

>> Yeah. Okay. Lightning round on uh we'll

01:02:23

do SPVS last. Freeberg, what do you got

01:02:26

in Science Corner? Everybody, all the

01:02:28

all the Freedberg fans are just

01:02:30

destroyed when we skip it. So, let's

01:02:31

give

01:02:32

>> a good one. Mark, do you like Science

01:02:33

Corner? No, you do.

01:02:35

>> I do.

01:02:35

>> Come on. Yeah.

01:02:36

>> Only the oceans.

01:02:38

>> Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon

01:02:40

Valley. He loves it all and he wants to

01:02:42

hear more.

01:02:44

>> Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we

01:02:47

become half as good as you?

01:02:48

>> I'm not a good sal. I'm like a I'm a a

01:02:51

geek.

01:02:52

>> You are, but you know how to

01:02:53

>> call it a Tony Robbins seminar. Let's

01:02:55

go. Walk over the coals together. Let's

01:02:57

roll.

01:02:57

>> We're all going to Tony. Put out the

01:02:59

coals. We're walking across them.

01:03:01

>> Nick, let's pull up the first chart.

01:03:03

This science corner is about the dreaded

01:03:06

El Nino season that is coming up. And so

01:03:09

this is a forecast for sea surface

01:03:11

temperature anomalies. And basically

01:03:14

what this means is that the ocean at

01:03:16

this point has heated up so much that

01:03:21

there's now a forecast on ocean

01:03:23

temperatures that are going to exceed

01:03:25

anything we have seen in recent history.

01:03:29

So we're kind of looking at temperatures

01:03:30

that might be 4° above normal. That

01:03:32

doesn't sound like a lot, but let's just

01:03:34

look at this image. That top image is

01:03:36

the sea surface temperature anomaly.

01:03:38

That means how different the sea surface

01:03:40

or the the ocean temperatures are. Why

01:03:42

does that matter? And this is compared

01:03:44

to 1877 when we had the biggest El Nino

01:03:47

year ever. And I'll explain what that

01:03:49

means in a moment. But why does this all

01:03:51

matter? The reason is the oceans are the

01:03:54

battery of weather. What happens at one

01:03:57

part of the year is that the oceans

01:03:58

absorb heat energy and absorb absorb

01:04:01

absorb gets hotter and hotter and hotter

01:04:03

and then that heat energy is released

01:04:04

into the atmosphere and then the

01:04:06

atmosphere drives the weather events

01:04:07

that happen all over the world and it

01:04:09

becomes somewhat predictable that you

01:04:10

can estimate what the weather over the

01:04:13

next year is going to be like based on

01:04:15

how the temperatures are sitting in the

01:04:16

ocean today. And at this point there is

01:04:19

so much excess energy stored up in the

01:04:22

oceans. I'll give you guys a statistic.

01:04:24

It's about 11 million terowatt hours.

01:04:27

The whole planet Earth uses 25,000

01:04:30

terowatt hours in a year. So 11 million

01:04:33

extra terowatt hours of energy is

01:04:35

currently stored up. That's 500 years

01:04:37

worth of human energy in this ocean. And

01:04:39

over the next few months, that energy is

01:04:41

going to be released into the

01:04:42

atmosphere. And that will absolutely 99%

01:04:46

confidence that will make the upcoming

01:04:48

year the hottest year on record by far

01:04:50

that humans have ever experienced or at

01:04:52

least that we've experienced in recent

01:04:54

history where we didn't have data going

01:04:56

going back a long time. It changes the

01:04:58

trade winds which changes how a lot of

01:05:01

the weather evolves from a normal

01:05:02

season. It changes the moisture in the

01:05:04

atmosphere in certain parts of the

01:05:06

world. And I'll just give you some

01:05:08

highlights of what this means. Over the

01:05:09

coming year, there will be major

01:05:11

atmospheric river events where you just

01:05:13

get water dumped on you in the southwest

01:05:15

in California and the Gulf Coast. You'll

01:05:18

have very low snowfall and very high

01:05:20

heat waves in the northern part of the

01:05:21

US going up to Canada. You guys remember

01:05:23

all those fires a couple years ago in

01:05:25

Canada. Interior regions of the US like

01:05:28

in Phoenix and and so on. They're

01:05:30

already seeing temperatures at 106

01:05:32

degrees in May. A super El Nino like is

01:05:34

forecasted for this year could extend

01:05:36

that duration of these heat domes which

01:05:38

could create temperatures that we've

01:05:39

never seen in those areas. Southern

01:05:41

Argentina, Chile, Brazil could see

01:05:43

record shattering heat waves. And this

01:05:45

is where things start to get a little

01:05:46

nasty because when that happens, the

01:05:48

crops start to fail. And in many parts

01:05:51

of the world, Brazil, India, Australia,

01:05:54

these are critical uh local consumption

01:05:56

for large populations, but also major a

01:05:59

export markets. So if Brazil's crop

01:06:02

fails, if Australia's wheat crop fails,

01:06:05

Australia's wheat crop goes to places

01:06:07

like Indonesia and the Philippines.

01:06:08

Hundreds of millions of people depend on

01:06:10

that that wheat crop. Hundreds of

01:06:12

millions of people depend on the exports

01:06:13

out of Brazil. Brazil is the world's

01:06:15

largest a exporter. And the scariest one

01:06:17

of all is if the monsoons fail, which is

01:06:20

now a very high probability event in

01:06:22

India. 150 million farmers in India that

01:06:25

depend on their agricultural output or

01:06:27

they don't make any money, they can't

01:06:28

survive. and one and a half billion

01:06:30

people that depend on that food. So the

01:06:32

importance of this El Nino event goes

01:06:34

beyond just like an interesting weather

01:06:36

anecdote. But if you think about the

01:06:38

second and third effects of this over

01:06:40

the next year, you could see energy

01:06:42

prices spiking and electricity spiking

01:06:44

and the grid failing in parts of the

01:06:46

southwest, commodity prices spiking all

01:06:48

over the world. And then you would see

01:06:50

places like uh India, the Philippines,

01:06:53

Vietnam starting to face some sort of

01:06:55

unrest if there isn't enough food supply

01:06:57

that's coming into those markets. And

01:06:58

then the question in India is a really

01:07:00

nasty one because there isn't a really

01:07:01

good solution. India and markets like it

01:07:04

that are significantly dependent uh on

01:07:07

having their monsoon event but also are

01:07:10

currently facing a shortage of nitrogen

01:07:13

based fertilizer because of the crisis

01:07:14

with Iran and the straight of Hormuz

01:07:16

which we've talked about as a double

01:07:18

whammy. So over the next year in South

01:07:20

Asia you could see a calorie deficit and

01:07:23

a major kind of economic crisis that

01:07:25

starts to emerge. So, this El Nino

01:07:26

event, I just wanted to kind of bring it

01:07:28

up as an interesting science corner

01:07:29

because the data now seems pretty

01:07:31

confirmed that over the next few months,

01:07:33

we're going to have this record-breaking

01:07:34

El Nino and these are the sorts of

01:07:36

consequences that will play out over the

01:07:38

next year.

01:07:38

>> This is [ __ ] scary. God damn. What do

01:07:41

you do about the the food problem?

01:07:44

That's a big problem.

01:07:45

>> That's a big problem. And this is the

01:07:47

commodity markets are going wild for

01:07:49

this right now.

01:07:49

>> Did this did this happen the last time

01:07:51

we had an El Nino?

01:07:52

>> Yes. So when we have El Ninos, there's a

01:07:54

severity of these sorts of events

01:07:56

happening.

01:07:56

>> No, I mean, did we have a food shortage

01:07:58

problem in the last El Nino?

01:08:00

>> Oh, yeah. When we have El Ninos, there's

01:08:02

food shortages that come out of

01:08:03

Australia, Brazil. You see these events.

01:08:05

That's a regular part of the the thing.

01:08:06

The problem this year is the index is so

01:08:08

off the charts. It is so far beyond

01:08:10

anything we've seen and it's correlated

01:08:13

obviously with the severity that it

01:08:15

triggers a crisis that may be, you know,

01:08:17

really difficult to manage in a lot of

01:08:19

places. So the US is a net a exporter.

01:08:22

So from a US perspective, our big issues

01:08:24

to worry about are the fire season. By

01:08:26

the way, this does decrease Atlantic

01:08:28

hurricanes. You're going to have fewer

01:08:29

hurricanes this year in the uh in the

01:08:30

south, but you know, you have these kind

01:08:32

of major storm events that happen in

01:08:34

California, the heat waves, electricity

01:08:36

prices. We're probably more stable than

01:08:38

other parts of the world. But think

01:08:40

about the Brazil, the a export market is

01:08:42

such a significant part of the economy

01:08:44

and Brazil has a debt problem that this

01:08:46

could end up becoming an economic

01:08:47

problem in some parts of the world in

01:08:50

including Brazil. So the the commodity

01:08:52

markets are trading this El Nino event

01:08:54

pretty actively right now. It's become

01:08:55

kind of a focal area for a lot of folks

01:08:57

in in commodity markets. Can your super

01:08:59

seeds help or no?

01:09:01

>> That's a longer term solution. But I

01:09:03

mean look, we're like at the end of the

01:09:04

day having um this actually a good

01:09:06

point, but having genetics a crop

01:09:09

genetics that can adapt to a more

01:09:11

rapidly changing climate is going to be

01:09:13

critical over the next couple of

01:09:14

decades. Uh that's a big kind of macro

01:09:17

for

01:09:17

>> another part of this Freedberg that as

01:09:20

certain places heat up they actually

01:09:23

become viable places to put crops i.e.

01:09:26

Canada or the northern part of the

01:09:28

United States. So we're seeing the

01:09:31

actual places you can grow certain crops

01:09:34

independent of gen genetic modification

01:09:36

is expanding. In other words, farmlands

01:09:38

expanding because of global warming.

01:09:40

>> Right? So we increasingly grow soybeans

01:09:42

in Canada. That was not the case. uh two

01:09:45

decades ago through both plant breeding

01:09:46

where we've made the genetics adapt but

01:09:48

also the warmer temperature the shorter

01:09:49

winters and whatnot they've been able to

01:09:51

grow that that crop further north but if

01:09:55

you guys go back a couple of years there

01:09:56

were major heat waves and droughts in

01:09:58

Australia

01:09:59

>> huge fires yeah

01:10:00

>> huge fires but remember that wheat goes

01:10:02

to Indonesia it goes to Vietnam it goes

01:10:04

to these countries with hundreds of

01:10:05

millions of people dependent on it and

01:10:06

then they got to go scramble and find it

01:10:08

elsewhere now on a global basis there's

01:10:10

always a a bit of a give and a take but

01:10:13

in a year like this when you have this

01:10:14

much energy pumped into the atmosphere,

01:10:16

you may not have the given the take and

01:10:19

that's where things start to buckle.

01:10:21

>> All right. So, yeah, it's just like an

01:10:23

early warning sign. I know I've given

01:10:24

food warnings, food crisis warnings

01:10:26

twice before on the show. He gave a

01:10:28

really good one for Ukraine four years

01:10:29

ago and it turned out that that warning

01:10:33

resulted in a negotiation to allow wheat

01:10:36

to flow out of Ukraine that Russia

01:10:39

Ukraine and other folks made a specific

01:10:42

carveout in their war to make sure that

01:10:44

famine didn't spread. So

01:10:45

>> and the fertilizer export was negotiated

01:10:47

at the start of the war as well which

01:10:48

was critical.

01:10:49

>> Yeah.

01:10:49

>> Uh for sure.

01:10:50

>> I think you played a role in raising

01:10:52

awareness for that. So I give you credit

01:10:53

to Freeberg Mark. Uh thanks for coming

01:10:56

on the program. Sorry that uh at the end

01:10:58

of the program we all want to commit

01:11:00

sapuku here but you know we have Dr.

01:11:02

Doom and he uh he always loves to end

01:11:04

the show. There he is

01:11:08

with an upbeat you want to rap with an

01:11:09

upbeat anthropic

01:11:11

doomsday starring David Freriededberg

01:11:14

coming to the Marvel franchise in

01:11:16

December. Yes. So you thought Robert

01:11:18

Downey Jr. was playing him. It's

01:11:19

actually Freedberg. Here's your meme.

01:11:23

It's not Mark Beni off's first time uh

01:11:25

here in the SAS apocalypse.

01:11:27

>> There it is. First time.

01:11:31

>> He's like, I've been doing this before,

01:11:33

boys. I'm buying my stock back.

01:11:35

>> Somebody cut that rope.

01:11:37

>> Yeah, absolutely.

01:11:39

>> All right, listen. Uh I'll I'll just

01:11:41

lightning round this one. Philanthropic

01:11:43

has had enough of the shenanigans of the

01:11:45

multi-tiered, multi-layered SPVS being

01:11:49

sold to dentists for 10% loadin fees. I

01:11:53

think we all knew this day was coming

01:11:55

since it's becoming the wild west. They

01:11:57

called out specific platforms and they

01:11:59

said we're going to negate them. Chimoth

01:12:01

Tempest in a teapot or long overdue

01:12:05

punishment for bad actors.

01:12:07

>> Love Mark said it right. All these

01:12:09

companies should go public and get

01:12:11

evaluation and and focus on the higher

01:12:14

order bit. And all of these tickytacky

01:12:17

mechanisms that people can use to stay

01:12:19

private longer need to get a bullet put

01:12:21

in its head. And these SPVS are the

01:12:23

worst. The layered SPVS on SPVS on SPVS.

01:12:28

>> By the way, I and I will guarantee you

01:12:29

this. Once SpaceX goes public, once

01:12:32

Anthropic goes public, once OpenAI goes

01:12:34

public, you're going to see a litany of

01:12:37

these lawsuits back and forth between

01:12:38

the purveyors of these SPVS, they should

01:12:41

not be allowed.

01:12:42

>> They should be all negated if possible.

01:12:46

You can't now you can't unbreak the

01:12:48

eggs. So, I guess you just have to call

01:12:50

it what it is. I hope every company

01:12:51

adopts this and I hope as a result these

01:12:54

companies go public sooner and they

01:12:55

rationalize their equity structure

01:12:58

faster. I think it's the right thing to

01:13:00

do. So, I like the fact that anthropic

01:13:01

is

01:13:01

>> just say it. Descatiad.

01:13:04

>> Well, it's not discretziad. I just I I

01:13:06

just think that you are going to have a

01:13:07

lot.

01:13:08

>> No. Well, you're going to have a lot of

01:13:09

people that are going to be very upset

01:13:10

once this SpaceX thing comes out because

01:13:12

inevitably, because it happened in Uber,

01:13:14

somebody gets screwed in a layered SPV

01:13:16

somewhere that they didn't know and

01:13:18

they're going to be like, "What

01:13:19

happened?"

01:13:19

>> Read the fine print. You're getting

01:13:21

double carry and you paid 10% on the

01:13:23

loadin fee and you paid a price 10% over

01:13:26

what the last round was. So, it's a

01:13:28

recipe for disaster. The fine print. for

01:13:30

disaster.

01:13:30

>> Recipe for disaster. Hey Mark, great

01:13:33

job. Thanks so much for coming back with

01:13:35

you guys. Yeah, come back any time. You

01:13:37

were great. Hey, your

01:13:40

>> there's a we have a fan question here.

01:13:42

This is a fan question that came in

01:13:44

written by your PR department. They want

01:13:46

to know when you do your charity work uh

01:13:50

or your innovation as a founder, are you

01:13:52

more,

01:13:53

>> you know, at this stage in your career,

01:13:55

you're known for both of these things.

01:13:57

Are you more Steve Jobs or more Lorraine

01:13:59

Pal right now? What your PR department

01:14:01

worked very very deep question they f

01:14:04

the best decision I ever made the best

01:14:07

when I started Salesforce we put 1% of

01:14:10

our equity 1% of our profit and 1% of

01:14:13

all of our employees time into a

01:14:14

foundation. Today we've done more than

01:14:17

10 million hours of volunteerism. We've

01:14:19

given away more than a billion dollars

01:14:21

in grants

01:14:22

>> and we run over 50,000 nonprofits for

01:14:24

free on our platform. That's just

01:14:27

Salesforce.

01:14:28

Every I every company should do this.

01:14:30

It's amazing. Pledge11%.org.

01:14:33

That's my advertisement for the show.

01:14:35

>> Everybody should jump on the 111

01:14:37

platform. Best decision I ever made 27

01:14:39

years ago. Irrespective I've obviously

01:14:41

done a huge amount of personal

01:14:43

philanthropy to five hospital.

01:14:46

>> You did one that was really I think

01:14:48

personal. Uh Susan Wjeki tragically died

01:14:51

of cancer and major.

01:14:52

>> You're going to get me crying. Let's not

01:14:54

go there. This is not your time.

01:14:57

My best friend. Bestie. My bestie.

01:14:59

>> She was a special person, huh?

01:15:00

>> She's a star.

01:15:01

>> The best. She was the best.

01:15:03

>> Just I mean,

01:15:04

>> I'm not kidding. You're I'm not kidding.

01:15:06

>> Tell the audience what was so unique

01:15:08

about Susan. Tell tell them what you're

01:15:10

It's a good time to do a remembrance.

01:15:12

>> She This was one of the great people on

01:15:15

the planet. Incredible woman. Mother of

01:15:18

five amazing children. Um, and uh, two

01:15:22

amazing sisters, great family. Uh,

01:15:25

everybody knows Ann, her sister, her

01:15:27

sister Janet at UCSF. Um, sorry, my eyes

01:15:30

are tearing up, but I'll just tell you

01:15:32

that, you know, she contracted a very

01:15:34

rare form of cancer, passed away too

01:15:37

young a couple years ago now. Um, and

01:15:41

she was on our board. She was one of the

01:15:43

great people of all time. I'm so

01:15:45

grateful that her family is focusing on

01:15:47

building a new foundation to go after

01:15:50

this rare cancer. Uh we're backing it. I

01:15:52

think everybody should. Um look,

01:15:54

everyone should try to be a Susan. She

01:15:56

was one of the absolute greats and uh I

01:15:59

have an altar in my office. When you

01:16:01

come to see me, you'll see with the

01:16:02

photos of her and me and I think of her

01:16:05

every single day. And uh my heart just

01:16:09

stays with her, her husband Dennis, all

01:16:11

the children, the sisters, the wholeiki

01:16:14

family. Amazing. And one of the great

01:16:16

institutions in Silicon Valley. We're

01:16:18

lucky to have the whole family.

01:16:19

>> Yeah, she was fantastic.

01:16:21

>> Well said.

01:16:21

>> All right. Well said. Rest in peace,

01:16:23

Susan Waki.

01:16:24

>> Thank you.

01:16:24

>> All right. We'll see you all next time

01:16:26

on the podcast. Love you boys.

01:16:28

>> See you guys. Aloha. Thanks for Bye-bye.

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